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General => General Discussion => Topic started by: bosk1 on December 20, 2016, 04:59:48 PM
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So...
Son #1 makes fun of Son #2's basketball shooting ability. Son #2 responds by firing the ball at Son #1's ribcage as hard as he can. Wife then calls at work and demands that I make them change their behavior. I fail to get what needs to be changed. As far as I'm concerned: brothers being brothers; let them be and let them work it out.
DTF's thoughts?
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Sounds like brothers being brothers to me. Me and my brother were much like this when we were kids. We're basically best friends now.
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I can't think of any good way that you'd deal with it anyway. I grew up with three brothers, and we're all very reserved/restrained people, but that behavior doesn't sound out of the ordinary or outlandish in any way.
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Sounds like brothers being brothers to me. Me and my brother were much like this when we were kids. We're basically best friends now.
Yep. I was the oldest of three boys and I am raising three boys. Sounds like 'normal' to me. I don't think there has been a day that's gone by in the past three or four years where there hasn't been some sort of physical "fight".....wrestling etc. it's just the way boys are.
And....your wife sounds like mine. She's always asking me if I'm going to intervene and my standard line to them now is "if your going to fight and wrestle like that i dont want anyone to come crying to me if one of you gets hurt"
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What ages?
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What ages?
Not sure if this for me or Bosk... but mine are 10, 9 and 6
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Boys being boys but you get home and a punishment for both behaviors is appropriate. Bed early is good enough.
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If you really want to get their attention, just tell them you closed a sub forum today! :D
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Boys being boys but you get home and a punishment for both behaviors is appropriate. Bed early is good enough.
I agree with this. It's definitely boys being boys, and while it's nothing to overreact to, punishment is needed.
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They are 13 and 11. Oldest threw the ball at the youngest. I'm pretty strict, and I do punish and not let things slide. But it's not even like they got into a fistfight or wrestling match over it. They moved on and kept doing stuff together after a minute or two.
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Sounds like you feel you should still address it though.
I would just tell Son #1 the you do not make fun of anybody's abilities EVER, ESPECIALLY your brother. And I would tell Son #2 that you do not EVER strike your brother.
No punishment needed.
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SN2 gets up against the garage and SN1 gets three free shots with the basketball. Seems pretty obvious to me, but what do I know.
And out of curiosity, if SN1 came out of it with 3 broken ribs, does that warrant a change in behavior? Basketballs are hard.
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SN2 gets up against the garage and SN1 gets three free shots with the basketball.
Bosk might want to be a grandfather some day. You know that at least one of those free shots would be to the nuts. It's teen age boys we're talking about, after all.
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I'm not married nor am I a father (to my knowledge), so my advice is simply to watch the movie Dogtooth.
Pretty sure all questions are answered in it.
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Boys will be boys
"Correct them" in front of the wife. Then pull them aside separately and say "yo, not so rough in front of her, but I'm proud of you"
There really is no issue here.
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I don't have a brother, but siblings fight. Better fighting with each other and not others. Tell the older son his punishment is he has to teach the younger son how to shoot, and if younger son doesn't improve, he has to run laps.
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I gotta go with "You make fun of someone, you may get popped. That's life." Your sons already know this obviously, the reaction from your wife is due to her not understanding how males operate, and how could she being female. One way to diplomatically handle it would be to tell her you will talk to them about it, and then talk to them about it and why reactionary behavior is often bad, then shoot some hoops with them and if they make fun of your abilities throw the ball at them for A) making fun of you, and B) not listening to your talk. :-)
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Let the younger one get a free shot at the older one with a basket ball and call it even.
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If this was just them jacking around I personally wouldnt even bother with discipline. When any of mine do something like this to the other I ask them if they'd like it if someone winged a ball into Their ribs and if something like that happens to them then don't come a cryin' to me about it. I'd be more exhausted than i already am if i had to address every little sucker punch, toy/ball throw.
But if this was a 'fight' and the older son was whooping up on the younger with real intent to hurt or just be mean then (for me at least) that's different than just jacking around and some discipline is in order.
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It's much ado about nothing. If it persisted, then I'd be more inclined to say it deserves stricter parental attention. It seems like they blew off a little steam and were able to move on.
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It really isn't about S1,or S2. The issue is Mrs. Bosk has obviously reached her limit today. Tell the boys, "You're both trying your mother's patience, so figure it out and knock that shit off!"
Then bring Mrs. Bosk some jewelry, or flowers. Tell her you appreciate all that she does, and send her for a massage and/or a mani/pedi at the spa.
That is how you fix this issue.
Never forget the cardinal rule of marriage. Happy wife...Happy life. Especially a wife with a teen boy around. Vox Jr. is 19 and my wife's step-son. Between his mother and my wife I sometimes am astonished he's still with us, and not at least tooling about with a permanent limp or drools when he speaks. But by the Grace of God, and (for his step mom's sake) my ability to recognize she didn't need me to deal with him, she needed me to deal with her...he has made it relatively unscathed.
:biggrin:
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It really isn't about S1,or S2. The issue is Mrs. Bosk has obviously reached her limit today. Tell the boys, "You're both trying your mother's patience, so figure it out and knock that shit off!"
Then bring Mrs. Bosk some jewelry, or flowers. Tell her you appreciate all that she does, and send her for a massage and/or a mani/pedi at the spa.
That is how you fix this issue.
:clap: Spoken like a wise Sage
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It really isn't about S1,or S2. The issue is Mrs. Bosk has obviously reached her limit today. Tell the boys, "You're both trying your mother's patience, so figure it out and knock that shit off!"
Then bring Mrs. Bosk some jewelry, or flowers. Tell her you appreciate all that she does, and send her for a massage and/or a mani/pedi at the spa.
That is how you fix this issue.
Never forget the cardinal rule of marriage. Happy wife...Happy life.
All of this shit right here.
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I would have that conversation with the kids:
- Son 1: How'd you like it if...
- Son 2: No one likes to be made fun of, but rather than throw the ball at HIM, why not throw the ball at the hoop another 50, 100 times and get better?
- Wife: I'm sorry you had a hard day, sweetie. I talked to both of them as you asked. And I will if it happens again, but please understand that this is how young boys communicate, and hopefully they have learned a lesson from this.
I get discipline, I get having respect for others, but I'm not a huge fan of coddling in the sense of "oh, it's okay, NO ONE should EVER be made fun of. Come have some pudding!" It changes form (sometimes) but the world is a cruel place, and is not interested in your self-esteem. They will have to do that themselves, and the sooner they do (without sticking their head in the sand) the better they'll be.
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I don't so much disagree with anyone, I just see it a little differently. To me, it's not so much a punishable offense, as it is a teaching/learning moment.
My first thought is about the reaction of just throwing something because you're mad. You know who does that without thinking about the consequences of their actions: Women (maybe an overgeneralization...). It's not okay to just pick something up and throw it at somebody, whether it's a basketball/baseball/soccerball or a heavy glass. People need to learn self control. It's not okay to act now and apologize later.
Yeah, boys will be boys. I'm 18 months older than my brother, and he's a narcissistic asshole that is all about making other people feel bad. There was a point in my life (not a child) where I was really angry, and he was a real prick. We never really got into it, cuz I had self control even though I was in a bad place. But, I had the realization that if I reacted appropriately to a lot of the stuff with him, we would have been fist fighting ALL THE TIME! Sooo... I think my point here is pick your battles. Not everything has to be fightin' words.
And then there's the person on the other side. People can justify the ball throw as an appropriate response to the verbal ripping. What about the response from the person hit by the ball? There's a progressive escalation, and who decides where to draw the line? What if that kid picks up a bat or something else heavy, and attacks the other kid? To me, that's an appropriate response to being physically attacked with another object. Is the ball thrower ready to take a fist, or even a bat, to the face simply because they don't have enough self control to not pick something up and throw it when someone says something about them they don't like? (Like attacking the sacred nature of someone's basketball shooting ability at age 12)
The ultimate point is be ready to pay for your actions, whether you're the shit talked or the ball thrower.
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Enroll both of them in a competitive dodgeball league. They'll both learn the meaning of pain and neither will throw a ball at the other again.
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Enroll both of them in a competitive dodgeball league. They'll both learn the meaning of pain and neither will throw a ball at the other again.
That's not true, I enjoyed hurting my buddies. :lol
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Then bring Mrs. Bosk some jewelry, or flowers. Tell her you appreciate all that she does, and send her for a massage and/or a mani/pedi at the spa.
That is how you fix this issue.
Ahhh. Good ol' bribery. I like it. You have to be careful though. If she catches on, she'll just start complaining because she wants a spa day. It's a trap!
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Boys will be boys
"Correct them" in front of the wife. Then pull them aside separately and say "yo, not so rough in front of her, but I'm proud of you"
There really is no issue here.
As the product of parents who seemed to get their rocks off constantly undermining each other, I'm gonna cast my vote on "do not do this."
It really isn't about S1,or S2. The issue is Mrs. Bosk has obviously reached her limit today.
I'm gonna go with this.
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Boys will be boys
"Correct them" in front of the wife. Then pull them aside separately and say "yo, not so rough in front of her, but I'm proud of you"
There really is no issue here.
As the product of parents who seemed to get their rocks off constantly undermining each other, I'm gonna cast my vote on "do not do this."
It really isn't about S1,or S2. The issue is Mrs. Bosk has obviously reached her limit today.
I'm gonna go with this.
Yeah, and if my initial post came off as dismissive or inclined to undermine Mrs. Bosk, that wasn't my intent. I ultimately went with an approach similar to what was described here, where I talked to the boys and addressed it, but didn't take a tone of coming down on them hard either--just to remind them to (1) think about how they interact with people, including each other, and be more careful; and (2) think about how their actions impact their mother, who has to be with them all day, and if they frustrate her to the point where she is calling me at work, it is not going to go well for them even if the conduct is minor. And I talked to my wife as well to let her know that (1) I had her back no matter what and appreciate all she does and has to put up with, and (2) really, this is just boys being boys, and since no one got hurt or intended to really hurt the other, probably best to let them learn from it and just move on.
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So no dodgeball league?
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This is a good thread. I think you did right, Bosk.
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Shit if neither myself or any of my four older brothers end up in a hospital or back if a police cruiser, my mom counted it as a win.
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Bosk1, you'll appreciate this.
https://youtu.be/SpBIZgvjWmA
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Shit if neither myself or any of my four older brothers end up in a hospital or back if a police cruiser, my mom counted it as a win.
LOL. My Mom was the one who called the State Troopers when me and my Brothers' fights got out of control!
"There is a special place in Heaven for the (single) Mother of three boys" <----That was a framed picture in her bedroom!
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If your kid is starting to get hip the whole Santa not being real thing, what's a good age to let them in on it?
Like with me, I think I was around 6 when I was like "is there really a guy flying around and coming down our chimney" and they just looked me in the eye, dead serious and insisted there was. I kind resented that a little, since I don't like being condescended to, especially when I really truly felt like something was up.
I think if my 6 year old came up to me and was seriously skeptically, I would probably just let them in on it, especially if it was clear that they had figured it out.
Thoughts?
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I've been through this four times now (my current youngest is eight) and ALL FOUR knew well before we gave up the ghost, but all four were/are scared to death that if they said anything about it, the presents would dry up. So, it's less about WHEN than HOW. Make sure you do it in a loving, careful way, not a mocking, or "hipster" way.
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I totally agree with you. But I have to ask: what would be a hipster way of telling your kid Santa isn't real?
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I totally agree with you. But I have to ask: what would be a hipster way of telling your kid Santa isn't real?
Well, I don't have a specific example, I meant just not to treat it as a joke or make the kid feel stupid for believing in Santa Claus.
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I think we pretty much let our kids figure it out on their own. But they both now say they still believe in the *idea* of Santa.
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On the Santa topic: I've been working as Santa the last two Christmas Eves (dressing up and delivering presents to kids and families). It's fun and also some good money (I get 32€ per family and I spend like twenty minutes at each house), but this year my cousin (when me met on the 26th) that he'd never do that because he hated the fact that his parents lied to him about Santa and wouldn't want to participate in that lie towards someone else.
I hadn't considered that angle before so it got me thinking, but ultimately, while I see where he's coming from, I think he's being a little dramatic and I don't really have a problem with the whole thing.
What do you guys think?
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I totally agree with you. But I have to ask: what would be a hipster way of telling your kid Santa isn't real?
I dunno, but I assume it would involve an intentionally ironic sweater.
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On the Santa topic: I've been working as Santa the last two Christmas Eves (dressing up and delivering presents to kids and families). It's fun and also some good money (I get 32€ per family and I spend like twenty minutes at each house), but this year my cousin (when me met on the 26th) that he'd never do that because he hated the fact that his parents lied to him about Santa and wouldn't want to participate in that lie towards someone else.
I hadn't considered that angle before so it got me thinking, but ultimately, while I see where he's coming from, I think he's being a little dramatic and I don't really have a problem with the whole thing.
What do you guys think?
I think not a "little dramatic" but "way overboard dramatic". It's all in the participation. There are, for better or worse, literally MILLIONS of lies we tell our kids every fucking day, in order to help them cope, develop and grow. the problem doesn't come from "participating in the lie", it comes from how we relate that "lie" to real life and how we communicate the transition from coddling infanthood to hardcore real world adulthood. Not Santa, but you'll get my point: I was a HUGE - Yuuuge! - Kiss and Ozzy/Sabbath fan growing up, although I was never really "metal" with the leathers and tats and devil horns, I was INTO metal. And I remember my dad asking me a bunch of questions about Ozzy (especially around the time he bit the head off the bat) and after seeing the cover of Diary, he started calling him "Ozzy Osboob". And it took me a while, because he's not a "preacher" kind of guy, but I realized pretty quick that he wasn't making fun of ME, or my MUSIC, or my LOVE of music (he's bought me more instruments than I have bought myself) but he was teaching me that Ozzy, above all things, has to sell records. So does Gene Simmons. BUT... so does EVERY musician that puts out a record and tries to make a living at it. So he sort of broke that fourth wall in a way that didn't ruin it, didn't make him out to be an "old fart", or just serve to highlight the generation gap. And to this day, I love the MUSIC. I don't get worked up over the marketing and merch, and "Sharon is the DEVIL!" crap, or the whole Kiss/Tommy/Ace/Peter/Eric thing. It is what it is, and I understand it (don't have to LIKE it, but I understand it).
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I had no idea where else to put this.
What do you guy think about this new trend of the Tide Pod challenges, where the kids are eating the tide pods?
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I had no idea where else to put this.
What do you guy think about this new trend of the Tide Pod challenges, where the kids are eating the tide pods?
Part of me says "these are idiot kids with too much time on their hands; buy them a book!". But part of me says "these are idiot kids with too much time no their hands; and when/if they survive until adulthood, they'll have learned their lesson". When I was in college, one of my buddies "ate" a urinal cake on a bet. Now, the guys know what I'm talking about: those disks, they look exactly like a hockey puck, that get put in the urinals to absorb odors and sanitize. They smell like detergent or mothballs, and are comprised of carcinogenic materials. Funny in hindsight - and we laugh about it 30 years later - but he is clear; it wasn't fun, it wasn't a picnic, and he's lucky he didn't sustain bad chemical burns. So I can't really say it's a "generational thing" can I?
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Not once did I ever look at AJAX as a kid and think, "I should snort this". I don't get it.
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What do you guy think about this new trend of the Tide Pod challenges, where the kids are eating the tide pods?
It's very stupid, which humanity has excelled since we crawled out of the primordial soup. Now, however, you can broadcast your stupidity to the world, and the world will say "Hey, Imma try that, brb!"
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I think everyone does stupid shit growing up. Some are unlucky and die young, the majority grow up and cringe looking back at some of our decisions. That being said, I did a lot of stupid shit growing up and never once did I think eating soap of any form would be a good idea or something funny to do to impress people.
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I had to put the kibosh on the "knockout challenge" last week after watching a vid of my 19 year old cause my 17 year old son to pass out. Deep knee bends with large inhales then squeeze. Some of the "challenges" have been funny. Some cross the line. As a parent I don't over react, I just jump in when needed. I"ll quote Mr. Peart, "learning that we're only immortal for a limited time".
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I think that humanity tries to eliminate Darwinism through any means necessary, also being arguably the main goal of modern human society: Keep as many people alive as possible for as long as possible.
(Jeff Goldblum voice) "Darwinism, uh, uh, finds a way..."
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I had to put the kibosh on the "knockout challenge" last week after watching a vid of my 19 year old cause my 17 year old son to pass out. Deep knee bends with large inhales then squeeze. Some of the "challenges" have been funny. Some cross the line. As a parent I don't over react, I just jump in when needed. I"ll quote Mr. Peart, "learning that we're only immortal for a limited time".
Ah, the venerable elevator charge. Back in our day that was combined with pot (the aforementioned charge) and almost guaranteed to put you on the ground.
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I had to put the kibosh on the "knockout challenge" last week after watching a vid of my 19 year old cause my 17 year old son to pass out. Deep knee bends with large inhales then squeeze. Some of the "challenges" have been funny. Some cross the line. As a parent I don't over react, I just jump in when needed. I"ll quote Mr. Peart, "learning that we're only immortal for a limited time".
That was me at 13 until a friend fell face first into the concrete.
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This is flat out child abuse and child endangerment. Don’t care how ‘cool’ it looks or how skilled that guy is, one wrong move and his daughter could be paralyzed for life or killed. This guy deserves to be slapped in the face.
https://www.reddit.com/r/DadReflexes/comments/7rd7uc/daddy_daughter_snowboard_time/?st=JCLGX5TE&sh=2f80f5d7
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This is flat out child abuse and child endangerment. Don’t care how ‘cool’ it looks or how skilled that guy is, one wrong move and his daughter could be paralyzed for life or killed. This guy deserves to be slapped in the face.
https://www.reddit.com/r/DadReflexes/comments/7rd7uc/daddy_daughter_snowboard_time/?st=JCLGX5TE&sh=2f80f5d7
Eep!
I remember walking to get some lunch from work one day and saw a dude skateboard while holding his kid (couldn't be more than 1-2 years old).
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I don't know, the guy seems pretty experienced and the kid has a helmet on, and it looks like she has her own little snowboard. No more dangerous than seeing parents with their kids riding on the back of their motorcycles in my opinion. The kids looks to be 3ish, if she was an infant then I'd have issues.
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I don't know, the guy seems pretty experienced and the kid has a helmet on, and it looks like she has her own little snowboard. No more dangerous than seeing parents with their kids riding on the back of their motorcycles in my opinion. The kids looks to be 3ish, if she was an infant then I'd have issues.
Yeah, I had no problem with either. COULD it have gone wrong? Sure. So what?
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I don't know, the guy seems pretty experienced and the kid has a helmet on, and it looks like she has her own little snowboard. No more dangerous than seeing parents with their kids riding on the back of their motorcycles in my opinion. The kids looks to be 3ish, if she was an infant then I'd have issues.
Yeah, I had no problem with either. COULD it have gone wrong? Sure. So what?
You guys are insane. Do you have kids? That's a human being....a tiny near defenseless one who I'd bet any amount of money has never had a choice on whether or not she actually likes or wants to snowboard....she's doing it no matter what because Daddy said so. She's not a doll or toy which her dad is treating her like. That entire video is a selfish vanity shot for him to look cool and 'go viral' with no thought as to what would happen if he were to drop her while he's tossing her in the air or land on her if he botched a jump. He's an Master Level D-Bag
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This is flat out child abuse and child endangerment. Don’t care how ‘cool’ it looks or how skilled that guy is, one wrong move and his daughter could be paralyzed for life or killed. This guy deserves to be slapped in the face.
https://www.reddit.com/r/DadReflexes/comments/7rd7uc/daddy_daughter_snowboard_time/?st=JCLGX5TE&sh=2f80f5d7
I'm iffy on that one. I don't really think it's much different than giving a little kid a mini quad or dirtbike. And honestly, this guy looks like he's 100% competent at what he's doing. I'd say that kid is safer on the dad's board than some of the kids I've seen in strollers being pushed by a parent that's got a cellphone in one hand.
I actually think these are far more dangerous than what that father is doing.
(https://i0.wp.com/cyclesprog.wpengine.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Dad_pulling_son_in_trailer.jpg)
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I don't know, the guy seems pretty experienced and the kid has a helmet on, and it looks like she has her own little snowboard. No more dangerous than seeing parents with their kids riding on the back of their motorcycles in my opinion. The kids looks to be 3ish, if she was an infant then I'd have issues.
Yeah, I had no problem with either. COULD it have gone wrong? Sure. So what?
You guys are insane. Do you have kids? That's a human being....a tiny near defenseless one who I'd bet any amount of money has never had a choice on whether or not she actually likes or wants to snowboard....she's doing it no matter what because Daddy said so. She's not a doll or toy which her dad is treating her like. That entire video is a selfish vanity shot for him to look cool and 'go viral' with no thought as to what would happen if he were to drop her while he's tossing her in the air or land on her if he botched a jump. He's an Master Level D-Bag
I do agree with that second to last sentence. I think sometimes as parents we forget that our kids are individuals and may or may not like what WE like, or may or may not get jazzed by what jazzes us.
I learned this - a little with my kid (she's now 16 going on 17) but it REALLY came clear watching my stepson (he's 9 going on 10) deal with his real dad (who is also a Master Level D-Bag). Plain and simple, that kid would gargle Drano if his dad told him to because he's part scared of his dad and part wants to please him more than anything in life. We have to always remember these kids are individuals, even if they aren't always capable of reasoned, informed decisions.
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I don't know, the guy seems pretty experienced and the kid has a helmet on, and it looks like she has her own little snowboard. No more dangerous than seeing parents with their kids riding on the back of their motorcycles in my opinion. The kids looks to be 3ish, if she was an infant then I'd have issues.
Yeah, I had no problem with either. COULD it have gone wrong? Sure. So what?
You guys are insane. Do you have kids? That's a human being....a tiny near defenseless one who I'd bet any amount of money has never had a choice on whether or not she actually likes or wants to snowboard....she's doing it no matter what because Daddy said so. She's not a doll or toy which her dad is treating her like. That entire video is a selfish vanity shot for him to look cool and 'go viral' with no thought as to what would happen if he were to drop her while he's tossing her in the air or land on her if he botched a jump. He's an Master Level D-Bag
There are quite a few assumptions in that post that I would guess are probably incorrect.
In any case, while I am uncomfortable with the amount of risk he is taking, if he is training her to someday have the ability to be a pro snowboarder, the type of things he is doing are correct. And if he is in fact a pro with the requisite amount of skill, he is exactly the one to be doing it. When she is double the weight and size, can she ride along on his snowboard and see up close what those obstacles and tricks feel like? Nope. Can she be twirled in the air by dad so she can learn aerial awareness and body control on the snow? Nope. Again, assuming he is sufficiently trained and competent, she's getting some pretty awesome training that there simply isn't any other way to get. Too much risk for me. But if I'm growing up in a family where the kid has the potential to become a pro and has the ability to be trained just about from birth, I get it.
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I don't really think it's much different than giving a little kid a mini quad or dirtbike.
I've never been a fan of small children having mini quads or dirt bikes. And I'd respectfully disagree about the ride behind bike stroller being more dangerous....but, I can see the danger in it.
I understand the dude looks like a pro and all but it still looks extremely negligent to me to be putting her in that scenario, no matter how 'professional' he is.
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I don't know, the guy seems pretty experienced and the kid has a helmet on, and it looks like she has her own little snowboard. No more dangerous than seeing parents with their kids riding on the back of their motorcycles in my opinion. The kids looks to be 3ish, if she was an infant then I'd have issues.
Yeah, I had no problem with either. COULD it have gone wrong? Sure. So what?
You guys are insane. Do you have kids? That's a human being....a tiny near defenseless one who I'd bet any amount of money has never had a choice on whether or not she actually likes or wants to snowboard....she's doing it no matter what because Daddy said so. She's not a doll or toy which her dad is treating her like. That entire video is a selfish vanity shot for him to look cool and 'go viral' with no thought as to what would happen if he were to drop her while he's tossing her in the air or land on her if he botched a jump. He's an Master Level D-Bag
But don't all parents force their lives on their children to some degree? I mean, I'm sure you bring your kids to church and teach them about Jesus, no? They are tiny child that had no choice on whether or not they actually like or want to be a member of a church, but as a parent, you're having them do what you do. They're doing it no matter what because daddy said so. Forgive me for not remembering their ages, but have you taken any of your boys shooting yet? Kids have been hurt and instructors have been killed at gun ranges regardless of how safe their parents are trying to be. Is that much different?
The kid is probably having a blast.
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But don't all parents force their lives on their children to some degree?
Fair point. What we've always done with our sons is introduce them to something (i.e. baseball, soccer, piano lessons etc) and if they like it then we do all we can to help them enjoy the experience. If they tell us they really don't enjoy it then we ask what they'd like to try out and look for something else.
mean, I'm sure you bring your kids to church and teach them about Jesus, no?
We absolutely do. And I'd say that's a bit different than us holding them out the car window on the way there and flipping them around. Not to get into the specifics of our churches beliefs but all we do is expose them to learning about Christ, God etc and as they grow they can then choose to get Baptized and follow Jesus if they'd like. It's really up to them. BUT, and this is where I think your point might come in.....up until they are (18) and can legally make their own decisions, they are attending church with their mother and I for as their parents we've decided that is the best thing for them. Far from placing them in physical harm.
Forgive me for not remembering their ages, but have you taken any of your boys shooting yet? Kids have been hurt and instructors have been killed at gun ranges regardless of how safe their parents are trying to be. Is that much different?
7, 10 and 11 and yes, I take them shooting often and given them proper instruction on fire arm safety. I get your point, accidents do happen but in light of the world around us I think having uneducated kids in the aspect of fire arms is a poor decision. Not meaning they should learn to protect themselves but meaning I don't want them finding a gun at someone else's house and then having a horrid accident AND I've removed the curiosity from them seeking to 'find' my weapons and mess with them as they know every couple months we'll be shooting anyway.
The kid is probably having a blast.
I'm sure she was. I just personally feel that video was first of all NOT about the kid but all about that Dad wanting to look cool at the expense of his defenseless child and also full of risk that had many variables where if something went wrong the kid was paying the price, not the dad.
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That kid was having the time of her life.
Riding behind the bike was far more dangerous since it's exposed to traffic and other drivers. Snowboard Dude had the situation all under his control.
People forget that helmets for bikes, skiing, and whatnot were unheard of when half of us grew up. I won't try to argue that it was a better thing, but their necessity nowadays is highly overstated. You're better off wearing one but it's not a death sentence to go without.
Oddly, I have to disagree with Bosk's assumption, though. I think he's right about the safety aspect. Where I would have a problem is if he's training a 3 year old to be a future Olympic snowboarder. If she's expressed a genuine interest in it, which from the replies here I think improbable, then it'd be one thing. To me, though, it reeks of Earl Woods or Marv Marinovich.
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To me, though, it reeks of Earl Woods
Honestly, this was my first thought as well. She may grow up to be the worlds greatest female snowboarder....but did she really want to be the worlds greatest snowboarder or really have a say in it?
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Oddly, I have to disagree with Bosk's assumption, though. I think he's right about the safety aspect. Where I would have a problem is if he's training a 3 year old to be a future Olympic snowboarder. If she's expressed a genuine interest in it, which from the replies here I think improbable, then it'd be one thing. To me, though, it reeks of Earl Woods or Marv Marinovich.
I'm not saying it necessarily IS the case. Just saying that it very well COULD be. The point is, if I'm into a sport to the point where I am a pro, and I can look back and say, "Man, as much as training has advanced nowadays, as good as I am, I could have been exponentially better if I had this kind of training from the time I could walk," then it's a natural thing to then provide that when you have a kid. Maybe he's an overbearing Nazi who is determined to raise a little snowboarding machine from the time she pops out of the womb just for his own ego. Maybe he just wants to provide her the opportunity to have a lot of training from that time so that by the time she actually IS old enough to consent and affirmatively say, "yes this is something I want to do," she already has a HUGE head start by having a lot of advanced skills already ingrained and instinctual. Maybe something in between. Point is, we don't know, and there are a lot of potentially good or at least neutral motives for dad providing that opportunity from such a very young age.
Assuming, for just a moment, that he has good or at least neutral motives, I think it could likely play out like this: 18 years from now, maybe she is an Olympic snowboarder. Or maybe she is just an everyday Jane going through college and looking to start her career, but she snowboards and probably teaches snowboarding on the side, and has developed some amazing skills and earned some pretty good money doing it. Either way, I can easily see it playing out where she can look back and say: "I'm glad dad taught me that stuff from day 1. I didn't know it at the time, and certainly couldn't process the experience I was getting, but I was learning some cool stuff that really enabled me to take it to the next level by the time most of my friends were first learning how to strap on their boots. If he waited until I was 'old enough to have a say,' I would not have been able to progress the way I did."
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To me, though, it reeks of Earl Woods
Honestly, this was my first thought as well. She may grow up to be the worlds greatest female snowboarder....but did she really want to be the worlds greatest snowboarder or really have a say in it?
Earl was Father of the Year next to Marv. Look into that one.
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Oddly, I have to disagree with Bosk's assumption, though. I think he's right about the safety aspect. Where I would have a problem is if he's training a 3 year old to be a future Olympic snowboarder. If she's expressed a genuine interest in it, which from the replies here I think improbable, then it'd be one thing. To me, though, it reeks of Earl Woods or Marv Marinovich.
I'm not saying it necessarily IS the case. Just saying that it very well COULD be. The point is, if I'm into a sport to the point where I am a pro, and I can look back and say, "Man, as much as training has advanced nowadays, as good as I am, I could have been exponentially better if I had this kind of training from the time I could walk," then it's a natural thing to then provide that when you have a kid. Maybe he's an overbearing Nazi who is determined to raise a little snowboarding machine from the time she pops out of the womb just for his own ego. Maybe he just wants to provide her the opportunity to have a lot of training from that time so that by the time she actually IS old enough to consent and affirmatively say, "yes this is something I want to do," she already has a HUGE head start by having a lot of advanced skills already ingrained and instinctual. Maybe something in between. Point is, we don't know, and there are a lot of potentially good or at least neutral motives for dad providing that opportunity from such a very young age.
That's fair enough. :tup
Out of curiosity, do any of your kids have that level of fondness for your hobbies? My old man took me fishing, camping, sailing, and skiing, all things that he was super-keen on and quite good at, and aside from a moderate interest in camping I didn't develop any interest in these things. And he has no interest in video games, Asian chicks, and recreational drug use. Lifelong interests of mine. Just seems like an interest in hobbies, much less passions, aren't really something hereditary or socially developed.
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Oddly, I have to disagree with Bosk's assumption, though. I think he's right about the safety aspect. Where I would have a problem is if he's training a 3 year old to be a future Olympic snowboarder. If she's expressed a genuine interest in it, which from the replies here I think improbable, then it'd be one thing. To me, though, it reeks of Earl Woods or Marv Marinovich.
I'm not saying it necessarily IS the case. Just saying that it very well COULD be. The point is, if I'm into a sport to the point where I am a pro, and I can look back and say, "Man, as much as training has advanced nowadays, as good as I am, I could have been exponentially better if I had this kind of training from the time I could walk," then it's a natural thing to then provide that when you have a kid. Maybe he's an overbearing Nazi who is determined to raise a little snowboarding machine from the time she pops out of the womb just for his own ego. Maybe he just wants to provide her the opportunity to have a lot of training from that time so that by the time she actually IS old enough to consent and affirmatively say, "yes this is something I want to do," she already has a HUGE head start by having a lot of advanced skills already ingrained and instinctual. Maybe something in between. Point is, we don't know, and there are a lot of potentially good or at least neutral motives for dad providing that opportunity from such a very young age.
That's fair enough. :tup
Out of curiosity, do any of your kids have that level of fondness for your hobbies? My old man took me fishing, camping, sailing, and skiing, all things that he was super-keen on and quite good at, and aside from a moderate interest in camping I didn't develop any interest in these things. And he has no interest in video games, Asian chicks, and recreational drug use. Lifelong interests of mine. Just seems like an interest in hobbies, much less passions, aren't really something hereditary or socially developed.
You know, it's hard to say. They are 14 and 12 (boys) and 7 (girl). Between the three of them, they seem to like a lot of stuff my wife and I like. But that's because we have been doing that stuff with them since they were young. Some of it may likely stick with them through the years. Other stuff, they will let go of and realize it isn't their thing. Either way, that's cool. For me, the point isn't really trying to indoctrinate them into my interests. It's more about spending the time with them and teaching them skills. A lot of those skills will hopefully translate into other things that they find on their own. Some won't. That's cool too. And there are also things on the flip side that they have found interest in that I have had to try to learn and develop so I can teach them that I otherwise wouldn't really care much about. And even among the three of them, their interests often diverge in plenty of areas. Again, to me, it's about imparting what I DO know and love, and if they grow to love it, they've hopefully got a leg up by developing it early and I will have helped them develop that.
Going back to the snowboarding example, I could easily see a scenario where dude has three kids and does the same thing for all of them, and 30 years down the road has the following scenario: Kid #1 grows up to be a pro snowboarder. Maybe not Olympic level, but pro nonetheless, and is thankful to have developed those skills early to be really good at what she loves. Kid #2 grows up to be a casual snowboarder that is into plenty of other things in her "real life." But when she can get out on the slopes, she is grateful for the skills she developed early, and thankful for the memories with dad. Kid #3 hates all things snow and, as soon as she is able, goes in a completely different direction with her life and never goes into the outdoors at all. She doesn't have very good memories of snowboarding in particular, but has a decent relationship with dad because of the time he spent with her even though it wasn't her thing. Pretty likely. And I think most would be pretty okay with any of those three situations.
I'm going to go off on a bit of a tangent here based on something you posted. You and I both come from a generation where I think it is pretty common for kids to have grown up with VERY different interests than their parents. Some of that is just kind of the natural process of people growing up and coming up with their own identities. But there was also a VERY pervasive school of thought that emphasized independence from one's parents as well, no? Do you think that may also have played a part in it? I think our generation is less likely to have followed our parents' interests and hobbies in large part due to how we were raised in the '70s and '80s.
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I'm going to go off on a bit of a tangent here based on something you posted. You and I both come from a generation where I think it is pretty common for kids to have grown up with VERY different interests than their parents. Some of that is just kind of the natural process of people growing up and coming up with their own identities. But there was also a VERY pervasive school of thought that emphasized independence from one's parents as well, no? Do you think that may also have played a part in it? I think our generation is less likely to have followed our parents' interests and hobbies in large part due to how we were raised in the '70s and '80s.
That's an interesting observation, quite correct I think, but I'm not sure how I'd factor into it. My mom was very much of the "independence from one's parents" mindset, and was my primary parent. She probably got a little more than she bargained for in that regard during my teenage years. My old man was an every other weekend guy, and as such had an attitude closer to your own, I think. He sought to expose us to his interests, so those weekends would often involve camping or spending the night on the boat. I'm a land-lubber (not his doing) so that part didn't pan out. I lack the patience for fishing. Again, not his doing. Shooting, camping, and photography are all things I have a casual interest in, and his exposure undoubtedly factors into that.
I suppose the upshot is that your take on it is probably about right. While my mom and I are very much alike intellectually, we really share very few common interests. While I also share few common interests with my Old man, there are a handful from many he exposed me to.
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I know for me and my daughter, it's more cerebral. We both love music, but at times very different music. We both love movies, but have RADICALLY different criteria as to what makes a good movie. We like sports, but other than football (and now hockey) there's little overlap.
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Forgive me for not remembering their ages, but have you taken any of your boys shooting yet? Kids have been hurt and instructors have been killed at gun ranges regardless of how safe their parents are trying to be. Is that much different?
7, 10 and 11 and yes, I take them shooting often and given them proper instruction on fire arm safety. I get your point, accidents do happen but in light of the world around us I think having uneducated kids in the aspect of fire arms is a poor decision. Not meaning they should learn to protect themselves but meaning I don't want them finding a gun at someone else's house and then having a horrid accident AND I've removed the curiosity from them seeking to 'find' my weapons and mess with them as they know every couple months we'll be shooting anyway.
Gary... you know I love you more than most here on DTF, but this was so 'Murican. :lol More appropriate is "in light of the country around us". And I totally get your points ... within the good ole U S of A.
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Forgive me for not remembering their ages, but have you taken any of your boys shooting yet? Kids have been hurt and instructors have been killed at gun ranges regardless of how safe their parents are trying to be. Is that much different?
7, 10 and 11 and yes, I take them shooting often and given them proper instruction on fire arm safety. I get your point, accidents do happen but in light of the world around us I think having uneducated kids in the aspect of fire arms is a poor decision. Not meaning they should learn to protect themselves but meaning I don't want them finding a gun at someone else's house and then having a horrid accident AND I've removed the curiosity from them seeking to 'find' my weapons and mess with them as they know every couple months we'll be shooting anyway.
Gary... you know I love you more than most here on DTF, but this was so 'Murican. :lol More appropriate is "in light of the country around us". And I totally get your points ... within the good ole U S of A.
I'm not sure why we would qualify this to "country". As a general proposition, I feel Gary's point is applicable across the board: if you use or own something - be it a gun, a car, a prescription drug, a fork, or a marital aide - you know how to use it safely and responsibly.
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On my 12th birthday my dad gave me a nickel plated bolt action .22 rifle. But he didn't give me the rifle and a box of bullets and tell me to go out and play. We weren't rednecks by any stretch but I believe at one time if might have been a tradition or rite of passage in the south. I was taught how to handle it safely. I don't believe I was being put in a risky situation because of the gift. But I'm sure if I had been a completely out of control brat at the time, I would not have gotten it. Common sense parenting.
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On my 12th birthday my dad gave me a nickel plated bolt action .22 rifle. But he didn't give me the rifle and a box of bullets and tell me to go out and play. We weren't rednecks by any stretch but I believe at one time if might have been a tradition or rite of passage in the south. I was taught how to handle it safely. I don't believe I was being put in a risky situation because of the gift. But I'm sure if I had been a completely out of control brat at the time, I would not have gotten it. Common sense parenting.
I had guns in my house all growing up. They were locked in, of all places, our pool table (we had a coin-operated pool-hall table that was rigged so that you didn't need a quarter to release the balls, but the workings were all there, so you could take out the delivery chute and coin system). Keys were hanging on the wall within 10 feet of the table. The one rule: under NO CIRCUMSTANCES were we to handle those weapons without Dad's approval and PRESENCE. Of all the rules in the house - don't drink and drive, keep the vehicles on the road, use condoms, don't sass your mom - the only rule that my brother and I did not break was that rule about handling the weapons. We were taught all we needed to know about handling a weapon (I later got my license to carry, though I let it lapse when I moved out of state) but part of that "handling" was keeping them locked and safe when not in use.
I have four wonderful kids (three by marriage, one by birth), one of whom is a Private in the U.S. Army (now state National Guard) and has earned medals for his shooting prowess. He, my wife, and I have talked about this, and because of my daughter (less about her, than her friends) and other son (10, on the autism spectrum and dealing with some significant behavior issues in addition to that) it is not responsible parenting or brother-ing (is that a word?) to have weapons in our homes. So we don't. Not sure why any of this is controversial or subject to judgment.
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Forgive me for not remembering their ages, but have you taken any of your boys shooting yet? Kids have been hurt and instructors have been killed at gun ranges regardless of how safe their parents are trying to be. Is that much different?
7, 10 and 11 and yes, I take them shooting often and given them proper instruction on fire arm safety. I get your point, accidents do happen but in light of the world around us I think having uneducated kids in the aspect of fire arms is a poor decision. Not meaning they should learn to protect themselves but meaning I don't want them finding a gun at someone else's house and then having a horrid accident AND I've removed the curiosity from them seeking to 'find' my weapons and mess with them as they know every couple months we'll be shooting anyway.
Gary... you know I love you more than most here on DTF, but this was so 'Murican. :lol More appropriate is "in light of the country around us". And I totally get your points ... within the good ole U S of A.
I'm not sure why we would qualify this to "country". As a general proposition, I feel Gary's point is applicable across the board: if you use or own something - be it a gun, a car, a prescription drug, a fork, or a marital aide - you know how to use it safely and responsibly.
Fair enough... there is nothing wrong with it as a piece of parenting advice in general. But personally, the fact that my children know jack-squat about firearms is not reflective of poor decision-making on my part as a parent. It's simply not relevant in Canadian culture (by-and-large). I don't know a single person that owns a gun of any type - now, maybe it's jut not talked about, but I'm fairly certain that's not the case with the majority of my friends/colleagues. I doubt it is a priority for parents outside of the US. Personally, it would fall right in between "how to avoid a hyena attack" and "what to do when lost in the jungle at night".
It's simply not relevant for me as a Canadian, so the comment of "the world around us" is what I disputed. The world around *me* doesn't require firearm education. I would bet next week's paycheque you could substitute Canada with any number of countries - Belgium, Australia, Sweden, Switzerland .... - and get the same perspective.
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Forgive me for not remembering their ages, but have you taken any of your boys shooting yet? Kids have been hurt and instructors have been killed at gun ranges regardless of how safe their parents are trying to be. Is that much different?
7, 10 and 11 and yes, I take them shooting often and given them proper instruction on fire arm safety. I get your point, accidents do happen but in light of the world around us I think having uneducated kids in the aspect of fire arms is a poor decision. Not meaning they should learn to protect themselves but meaning I don't want them finding a gun at someone else's house and then having a horrid accident AND I've removed the curiosity from them seeking to 'find' my weapons and mess with them as they know every couple months we'll be shooting anyway.
Gary... you know I love you more than most here on DTF, but this was so 'Murican. :lol More appropriate is "in light of the country around us". And I totally get your points ... within the good ole U S of A.
I'm not sure why we would qualify this to "country". As a general proposition, I feel Gary's point is applicable across the board: if you use or own something - be it a gun, a car, a prescription drug, a fork, or a marital aide - you know how to use it safely and responsibly.
Fair enough... there is nothing wrong with it as a piece of parenting advice in general. But personally, the fact that my children know jack-squat about firearms is not reflective of poor decision-making on my part as a parent. It's simply not relevant in Canadian culture (by-and-large). I don't know a single person that owns a gun of any type - now, maybe it's jut not talked about, but I'm fairly certain that's not the case with the majority of my friends/colleagues. I doubt it is a priority for parents outside of the US. Personally, it would fall right in between "how to avoid a hyena attack" and "what to do when lost in the jungle at night".
It's simply not relevant for me as a Canadian, so the comment of "the world around us" is what I disputed. The world around *me* doesn't require firearm education. I would bet next week's paycheque you could substitute Canada with any number of countries - Belgium, Australia, Sweden, Switzerland .... - and get the same perspective.
But it's a myth that it's somehow massively "relevant" here in America too. I don't know if people think we sit around at cocktail parties talking about the latest guns we bought, and flashing them to our buddies like cars or diamonds. There are a lot of things that don't require "education", until, well, they do. "Guns" happened to come up when I was a kid. There was zero drug use of any kind in my household, so - this is a very true story - when I was around 13, or 14 (guessing) and a neighbor had their nephew come visit from Bridgeport (a city near where I grew up, and at the time home to the worst housing project in the nation outside of Compton, Father Panik Village) and showed me a bag of weed, my response was "Wow, what do you need a bag of iron filings for?" (You know, the slivers that teachers used to show magnetic fields in school). My kid (stepdaughter) came home a couple months ago smelling of weed and not long after my wife found a jar of weed in her bag (not in a direct search). Now it's relevant to me.
Old numbers - I'm going to try to find newer ones, but this will make my point - but in 1993, the UN ranked Canada third behind the US and Norway* in civilian ownership of guns. It estimated that 7 million Canadians (at the time, about 25% of the country) owned firearms. Guess what the percentage of Americans that own a gun is? Depending on your source, anywhere from 22% to 31%. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/09/19/just-three-percent-of-adults-own-half-of-americas-guns/?utm_term=.36c8aa2a5aa8 As you can see, 3% of Americans own half the guns in the nation.
I don't know anyone that's whacked on opioids - so not relevant to me - but apparently it's a big problem here.
* Funny that many think Trump wants Norwegians because they are "white"; why not because they're pro-gun? Doesn't further the narrative, but just as plausible.
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Edit: Nevermind. Don't want to take this off topic any further.
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I just wanted to say that I completely disagree with Stadler.
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For parents and non parents, how would you handle this and have you encountered this.
My uncle has 5 step children, ages 5 to 12. I was over for dinner and we are sitting there in the dining room. The 8 year old likes to be a tattle tale and he does that thing where if his mom tells one of the other boys something to do, then he jumps on the band wagon like he has authority too and starts harping on the other boy that "mom said to do that", which makes the other boys not want to have him around. Which he whines about to the mom.
But anyway, in this particular case. The mom said to the 10 year old eat the vegetables (the old cliche) and of course the 8 year old almost interrupts her as she's trying to parent and is like "you better eat those vegetables" and the mom looks at him sternly and is like "I am talking to so and so and this conversation has nothing to do with you, be quiet and eat your dinner"
So the 8 year old gets all hot and bothered and storms off up stairs (which is typical with him when things don't go his way)
Do you let him just storm off and ignore him (which is what the mother did) or do you go upstairs and say the storming off was wrong, correcting the bad behavior?
Thoughts?
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To storm off over that - and at that age - I'd most likely have told them to sit their ass down. BUT... I only have two kids (twins), so it's a different dynamic. 5 kids at different ages is a lot to cope with. Sometimes (and this is true with any number/age of children) you have pick and chose your battles.
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Yeah...like Chad said, pick and choose your battles. Especially if they have (5) kids. Who knows the psychology as to why that kid feels the need to try and be the ‘parent’....but, I can tell you with having three boys that the two older ones often try that with us when we are telling one of them to do something.
I think it’s more along the lines of they ‘like’ it when someone other than them are getting in trouble and they’re just rubbing there face in it.
The thing that concerned me most about the story though was the kid left the dinner table. Our boys can’t leave the table during dinner unless they ask and no one is dismissed until we’re all done.
I personally believe that a sit down, family dinner every night is vital to the health of your family....not just physically. You have to carve out that time for each other.....talk, interact etc etc. So, he’d have never made it three feet away before I’d have commanded him to sit back down.
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The thing that concerned me most about the story though was the kid left the dinner table. Our boys can’t leave the table during dinner unless they ask and no one is dismissed until we’re all done.
I personally believe that a sit down, family dinner every night is vital to the health of your family....not just physically. You have to carve out that time for each other.....talk, interact etc etc. So, he’d have never made it three feet away before I’d have commanded him to sit back down.
Get out of my mind! The jingle.household is the same way Gary :tup
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Those are good points.
In retrospect, if that was my kid, then I would have told him to sit back down before he even made it to the stairs. I feel kind of bad for my uncle though, since there's only so far he can go, since ultimately they aren't his kids and she has final say to any and all parenting decisions he makes.
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The thing that concerned me most about the story though was the kid left the dinner table. Our boys can’t leave the table during dinner unless they ask and no one is dismissed until we’re all done.
I personally believe that a sit down, family dinner every night is vital to the health of your family....not just physically. You have to carve out that time for each other.....talk, interact etc etc. So, he’d have never made it three feet away before I’d have commanded him to sit back down.
Get out of my mind! The jingle.household is the same way Gary :tup
Two brothers from another mother. The one thing I tried to bring into my new marriage - three step children - was that idea of dinner. We sit, we talk, we engage, and no phones, books, etc. And it has made a difference.
There was a great exchange in the new Roseanne show; her daughter was talking with her granddaughter, sort of begging her to stay home and watch her (Roseanne's) grandson. And they were going back and forth "negotiating", and finally Roseanne walked up to the granddaughter and said "You're staying home and watching your brother. Game OVER!" I loved that.
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https://qz.com/1248081/the-share-of-americans-age-25-29-living-with-parents-is-the-highest-in-75-years/
"Share of americans age 25-29 living with parents is highest in 75 years"
Just curious, when did you guys leave home and would you let your child stay at home at age 29? How would you guys handle this type of situation? Is it a problem, is it not a problem?
Just wanted to get your thought?
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I was 25. I was spoiled really. Moved in with my then girlfriend who is my wife today. She had surgery on both feet. Bunions on both sides. I took over the bills and taking care of her. It was time to grow up.
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I moved out just before my 25th birthday. The deal with my mother was I had 3 months after I graduated University of free rent. After that, I started paying. Frankly, I couldn't wait to be on my own.
Mrs.jingle lived at home until we moved in together - which was a 2 months after her 27th birthday.
jingle.kids will get a similar kind of deal - some period of grace after they finish post-secondary, but they've got to grow the fuck up and be responsible at some point - well before they turn 30. When they're 30, I'll be almost 60, and I have no desire to be a Landlord to my children.
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Moved out three months before my 25th birthday. I was studying at the time but got a side job that allowed me to pay the rent for my own small apartment. I didn't have a problem with my parents but felt it was time to stand on my own two feet.
For my kids: I hope they move out before their 29th birthday, but if the circumstances aren't right they can stay. But if it seems that they don't get the knack and there is danger of them staying at home forever and turning into old grumpy virgins, steps will be taken, but then I'm probably dead at that point, so my wife has to solve that situation. ;D
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My parents were cool enough to let me live at home the last couple years of college, so I could save money not having to pay for room and board (it saved me A TON). After I graduated, they let me hang out a bit longer while I was getting a job and getting my feet under me, I think I was 23 when I moved out.
I would do the same for my daughter, although she's only 2 (almost 3) so I'm not sure college will look the same when she gets to be that age. But I'll happily let her stay at home through her college years and a little beyond. If she finishes school, and gets a job and gets some money, I'll encourage her to make her own way or she'll need to start paying rent.
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I moved out at 24. I got a job that sent me on extended assignment to California, and when I got back I got an apartment with a friend.
For me, I'm sort of with Kwyjibo; they can stay as long as they want, but once school is done. they need to contribute. I'm not cleaning dishes out of the rooms, or running a frat house. When you're going through the teens and such, the older you get the more lax the rules get. Once you get to school being done (which it is for my stepdaughter) the rules start to get stricter again, and if you don't like it, it's a free country. But I'm not going to throw them out on principle. My problem is that I have a 10 year old as well. So no guys traipsing through, no weed... I can't have him learning to live like a 23 year old before he learns how to live like a 13 year old.
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I was 23 and had finally nabbed a job with steady pay rather than the hit and miss nature of the restaurant business so it just seemed like time to go.
As far as my own kids and when they should move on.....obviously I'm not going to kick them out to the curb but much in line of what's been said, there's going to be a point where either their finishing college/trade school or are already working where they'll need to get out and start life on their own.
I'd hope that my wife and I would have raised them well enough to where...by then....that is something that they'd be looking forward to doing rather than just sitting at home mooching off of us :lol
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I left home at 17.
All my kids received suitcases for the 18th birthdays. None of them complained.
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I moved out and in with my gf at 25. I still have one friend who lives with his parents at 32. We rip on his A LOT for that, but I think he's actually finally moving out with his fiance.
My parents let me move back in after college. I lived there for a few years, and would have continued probably because my parents didn't ask me to contribute much (my rent was equal to paying cleaning ladies to clean the house :lol) and I always took care of my self and lived in the basement. I think my parents hardly noticed me so it wasn't a big deal from them. My gf needed a roommate though so it made sense to move out when I did and like King, I kind of took her under my wing in terms of finances while she did grad school (although I very much regret this now since it didn't work out in the end).
Either way, I think if it's a healthy home relationship, I don't think it's that big of a deal. But at some point, the child needs to want to have some motivation for something of their own IMO. If there's no goal, then I think there's a problem eventually.
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I left home at 17.
All my kids received suitcases for the 18th birthdays. None of them complained.
I stayed at my parents' house through college and for my first year in the corporate world. I kicked in for groceries, but that was all they asked of me. It allowed me to save a crap ton of money and buy a house.
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I left home at 17.
All my kids received suitcases for the 18th birthdays. None of them complained.
I stayed at my parents' house through college and for my first year in the corporate world. I kicked in for groceries, but that was all they asked of me. It allowed me to save a crap ton of money and buy a house.
I should add that my three years at home after college allowed me to pay off all my student loan debt. It was nice making a real income (first job out of college was a 50k salary plus I worked OT). For someone without paying rent or car payments (my car was paid off by the time I graduated, which goes back to a downpayment I made from working summer jobs and making payments while working a side job during school), having that income was huge towards paying off my debt. This kind of goes back to what I meant with saying a healthy home relationship, if the kid is working towards something (paying off debt, doing school while not ruining the lives of the parents) then I personally don't see the issue with a child living home longer.
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I moved out of my parents house when I was 24, which was 3 years after I graduated. My gf, who became my 1st wife, graduated two years after me, and we got married a year later.
My mother started charging me rent, a very small sum. I remember fighting her big time on that, but in the end, when I got married, she gave me the money back. She was worried I wouldn't save it for myself....and she was right, so good move.
My stepson was home for about a year after he graduated college, and then he not only moved out, but away.
My oldest son (who is special needs), who turns 17 in a couple weeks, will likely live with us as long as he can. My 15 y/o, will likely move out as soon as he can.
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Moved out around 20 or so to shack up. That lasted all of ~18 months at which point I moved back into my old room. Stayed there a few years and paid off my debt, worked, went to school in the evenings. Eventually got tired of trying to juggle my sex life around when I could have the house to myself so I got my own place. That was that.
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I moved back home after college and moved out when I was 25. Moved out right before I got married. I pitched in a few hundred bucks for food and utilities. I got along well with my parents so it wasn't a big deal. I'll totally let my kids do the same as long as it's not costing me much money to let them live there and if they're working and being a reasonably productive person. My youngest I'd like out the soonest mostly because I plan to downsize when all the kids are out of the house.
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Apparently trying to get out of the house in your early 20s is an American thing. My sister started seeing a guy in Germany a while back and according to him, it's super common to live with your parents until you're like 30 over there.
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No, moving out in your mid-20s is common but staying til 30 isn't the norm in Germany.
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Apparently trying to get out of the house in your early 20s is an American thing. My sister started seeing a guy in Germany a while back and according to him, it's super common to live with your parents until you're like 30 over there.
Two words: "according to him".
According to me, Kiss is awesome, Democrats aren't funny, and short stocky old guys are a catch. So make of that what you will.
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Well I'm from Germany and I moved out when I was 25, case proved. ;D
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Apparently trying to get out of the house in your early 20s is an American thing. My sister started seeing a guy in Germany a while back and according to him, it's super common to live with your parents until you're like 30 over there.
Two words: "according to him".
According to me, Kiss is awesome, Democrats aren't funny, and short stocky old guys are a catch. So make of that what you will.
As Meat Loaf made famous... 2 out of 3 ain't bad.
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30 year old son refuses to move out. Parents have to take him to court and judge orders him to move out:
https://www.cnn.com/2018/05/22/us/judge-rules-son-must-move-out-new-york-trnd/index.html
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(https://replygif.net/i/312.gif)
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He really seems like the kind of dude that guilt-trips his parents and jumps into the victim role just to be able to sit on his lazy ass all his life. His parents even offer him money and to help look for jobs and houses, ffs. I'm not a parent but I'm really curious if all of this has to do with bad parenting, or that there's also 'bad luck' involved for him to turn out this irresponsible?
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It's quite possible that the parents provided too well for him. It's a fine line, and I get it... we want our children to have a better life than we did/do - that's part of the job of every parent (imo). But in doing so, it also is a contributor to the sense of 'entitlement' that this new generation (by-and-large) has. My kids have never had to want for anything - they've had sooooo much more than I ever did by the age of 18; vacations, gadgets, computers, clothes, toys ... you name it. We've provided so much for them, I sometimes worry that they won't be able to transition into their adult life with realistic expectations for of what life owes them - which is absolutely nothing.
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It's quite possible that the parents provided too well for him. It's a fine line, and I get it... we want our children to have a better life than we did/do - that's part of the job of every parent (imo). But in doing so, it also is a contributor to the sense of 'entitlement' that this new generation (by-and-large) has. My kids have never had to want for anything - they've had sooooo much more than I ever did by the age of 18; vacations, gadgets, computers, clothes, toys ... you name it. We've provided so much for them, I sometimes worry that they won't be able to transition into their adult life with realistic expectations for of what life owes them - which is absolutely nothing.
I'm not sure we realize just how true this is. And it's not even necessarily the parents (though it is, don't get me wrong). But there's a more insidious nature to this: when I was a kid, if I missed a TV show, I had to deal with it. There were no "on demands" or "Hulus". I might get lucky and catch it on rerun in the summer, but it was dumb luck. But I learned to accept that not everything was going to go my way, and not everything was available to me. If I really wanted to watch a show, I had to put in the effort. If there was a "happening" - for some reason, Charles Rocket saying "fuck" on SNL comes to mind - if I didn't catch it live, it was gone. FOREVER. Nowadays? "Hey sweetie, such and such is on; come watch it with me!" "Uh, no Dad, I'm going to binge watch the season, with creator commentary, this weekend." It's an entitlement culture. You see it in advertising ("You deserve the best!"), you see it in almost every aspect of life. What do some of these kids have to 'figure out'?
And not to throw a bone to guys like TAC (and me, as you'll see), but I know my kid will laugh at me if I try to make something work. I had a ten year old Denon receiver and it worked perfectly; sounded so good, but it was a nightmare with all the HDMI inputs. So I posted (here, as it happens) found out there was a switch I could get and ran the wires. Problem solved! They called it "Bill's Switch" in my house because everyone under the age of 25 thought it was ridiculous that I didn't go out and buy a new receiver. (And the moral here is not about being "cheap", but rather, having to make do and focus on the end goal, not the ease of getting there).
We were talking about work, and I said "well, you realize that the objective of work is to make money for the business, right? Not to have a comfy chair, or great hours, or a boss that loves you and thinks you're the "Kanye to her Kim..." and the only person in the room that didn't look at me like I was high was my father-in-law, who mumbled "amen" under his breath. Now, those things HELP you make money for the business, no doubt, but the point was, it's not about YOU.
Rant over, sorry.
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Awesome rant. :hifive:
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A+++++++++++++ rant, would read again
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And not to throw a bone to guys like TAC (and me, as you'll see), but I know my kid will laugh at me if I try to make something work.
Hah! It's not even just technology. You should see me with gas engines. It's why I have an electric blower and weed whacker.*
Regarding parenting, I feel like as a parent, I'd like to comment, but I'm not sure what I would say. I think some people work real hard at instilling values, but sometimes I think kids surviving their teens with their heads screwed on tight is nothing more than a lucky continuous set of circumstances. One show my wife and I will watch is Intervention, and it is so sickeningly tragic on all fronts. Parents, home, parenting, friends, siblings,...all conspire.
* I will stalk and kill anyone that manipulates this sentence and quotes it put of context.
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Yeah, Intervention is a tough one to watch. You see the parents retelling the story of their child growing up, and it's heartbreaking. One bad decision to smoke crack, or try some other kind of 'hard' drug, and your life is just absolutely fucked. I hate watching it for the thought of ever being in that situation myself.
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I'm 50. I've lived about 40, 45 years believing - deep in my heart - that no decision was irreversible. You make a mistake, you rebound and you move on. I'm now in the process of switching horses; there ARE decisions that are irreversible. There are mistakes that you can't walk back. Thankfully, they are few and far between, but nonetheless... I think my job is, to the extent possible, prepare my kid for having as few of those decision points as possible.
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Mistakes are really the tricky key here.
I'm still a focking mess of a work in progress as a parent - not mentioning I started being one when my girl was already 13 - so I won't dare to pass judgement, but I surely can talk as a son. I left home too early, made an outrageous quantity of mistakes and yet my current serenity is a product of some kind of honest and responsible reaction to said mistakes. In hindsight, I believe that was possible because I witnessed my parents making mistakes time and time again, but always taking responsibility and dealing with them in honesty afterwards.
Obviously chaos and chance exist, and a bad choice at the bad moment can screw up lives beyond repair, but it's been the actual example of facing self-imposed adversity that allowed me to grow, while I'm not sure living with perfect parents would have prepared me to face the focked up path I set for myself.
On both sides, it's really walking a tightrope blindfold. You really need to have the right balance, instincts, and pray for friendly winds.
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Has anyone ever had a conversation with their kids about being careful what they say on social media, since it lives on long after its written and can be held against them later down the line?
And if you did, did it seem to get through to them?
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How old are your kids?
Jingle.kids weren't on any social media platforms until they were in HS - when we got them their first phones. That was 4 years ago. Not sure if my advice/tactics would apply today to young children. But, we just told them that every and anything on the internet is forever. Drilled that into their brains over and over again. Thankfully they were at an age where they were able to grasp and comprehend that.
I couldn't imagine having a pre-teen in this day/age.
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Jingle.kids weren't on any social media platforms until they were in HS - when we got them their first phones. That was 4 years ago. Not sure if my advice/tactics would apply today to young children. But, we just told them that every and anything on the internet is forever. Drilled that into their brains over and over again. Thankfully they were at an age where they were able to grasp and comprehend that.
Right. Both of my kids have Instagram. My wife follows both of them. We're obviously not worried about our oldest, unless he's getting bullied online. Our youngest watches out for that for us and he's good about it.
My youngest is very committed academically. I told him that anything he posts online can and may looked at by any college he wants to to go. This is a big deal for him.
I told him that if he posts anything, he needs to treat it as if it could a newspaper headline.
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Has anyone ever had a conversation with their kids about being careful what they say on social media, since it lives on long after its written and can be held against them later down the line?
And if you did, did it seem to get through to them?
Yes.
No.
Having said that, my kids are sort of in the same boat as TAC's kids. I have one kid (he's 25) that's in the military, and they drill (pun intended) that into them. One kid that's 20 that's now married on her own and, well, is probably past the time of naked selfies and stuff (though she was bullied in high school, pretty severely). One kid that's going to be 18 that is applying to schools and is petrified that she's not going to get into a good school (though she's been accepted in three already, go figure).
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How old are your kids?
No kids yet. I just like thinking about parenting.
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I'm determined to keep my kids off social media as long as possible. Hell, right now I honestly want to say no until they're 18. Mine are 3, 7, and 9 right now. I think my phone makes me a worse person and I want to keep them away from it as long as possible. I should really just get rid of mine.
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We have three boys...8,11, and 12. The two oldest do have cell phones now because they get out of school a bit earlier and usually beat my wife and/or I home by half hour or so.....so, we got them the phones.
But, they do not have any social media accounts like Facebook, Twitter, Snap chat etc etc.
What they DO have though are their own Youtube channels. They and their friends are all obsessed with becoming 'youtubers'....and we went ahead and allowed them to create a channel and post videos.
There are rules though. Both my wife and I view the videos first to make sure there is no vital or private info being shared like full names, addresses...etc etc. There have been a couple instances of us not allowing a vid to be uploaded. Second is that their channels are private. Only a handful of their subscribers can see the vids.
I'd say about 1 out of 10 of their videos are actually 'funny'....the rest are just silly little inside joke deals between them and their friends. It keeps them busy and they seem to like it so we allow it.
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That's a sensible way to start Gary. Similar to what we did. Also... no data plan until this summer when they were moving away from home. While in High School, they had wifi at school and home, and unlimited calling/texting. That's what the phone was for - no need to have data and apps running wherever / whenever. Instagram and SnapChat are the two primary SM platforms they use. The only have Twitter and FB to follow and keep abreast of a handful of things they need to follow (ie, school stuff, sports, and some political stuff jingle.daughter helps mrs.jingle with). They don't Tweet or use FB for themselves - those platforms are mostly (I think) passe for their generation.
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My oldest is in middle school and he is BEGGING to have Snapchat. “Everyone” has it.....one of those deals ya know. It’s just not gonna happen.
Now the phones they have are smart phones....but they are limited to what they can do on them. And, with thier phones and the tablets they all have.....we’ve set up the downtime through the family sharing plan to where they’re only active in certain windows of time during the day. AND....they have to earn that screen time....which is then up to them whether or not they use it on the couple phone games we let them play or their PlayStation.
We’re trying to be ‘smart’ about it....all the while realizing it’s a totally different ballgame out there compared to when we grew up. Of course you want your kids to have fun and all but it’s just crazy. Hearing the stories about young kids killing themselves for being teased online and stuff. It’s heartbreaking and can make you go insane with worry if you allow it to.
Thus far our little ‘system’ has held up....but I know we’re approaching some tough decisions with the older two here in a couple years as far as ‘what’ we allow and ‘what’ they want.
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And I don't think I have to tell you all that the internet is a deep, dark, scary place. If a human can think it, it's out there somewhere.
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And I don't think I have to tell you all that the internet is a deep, dark, scary place. If a human can think it, it's out there somewhere.
oh geeze what have you thought of :biggrin:
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Haha, that's for me and my therapist. :)
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Gary, our approach is similar to yours (not worth getting into all the nuances, but it's close enough). But I find that one of the challenges we face with our kids at 13 and 15 is just habitual nature of reaching for the phone for whatever, whether it be "lemme get in one quick game" or "so and so is messaging me" or whatever. So we try to be actively involved in calling that out. Even if their time on the phone on a given day isn't "excessive" or they aren't violating their screen time allowance, if they are reaching for the screen during family time or time when company is over, or it looks like they are just mindlessly pulling out the phone out of habit, or whatever, we will call a "time out" and talk about it, sometimes making them put it away for an hour or so, or doing whatever else seems appropriate under the circumstances.
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What's kind of sad, I don't think I'd survive in your house Bosk. I've become so attached to my phone. I got to give props to those parents who can get their kids to keep some distance between the phones. My sister pretty much gives her babies phones. Obviously they don't know how to use them, but my niece definitely understands when she sees pictures of herself though and it's kind of scary that my sister allows the babies to understand the concept of a selfie. She is always looking to grab a phone if she sees one. Shes not even 18 months old. Apparently some massive studies are being done on the impact of staring at phone screens in kids, it won't be done any time soon (the one I read was a 10 year study that just started), but early results are already showing that it's not very healthy for kids and they think they are going to have plenty of evidence to support that. And having said that, I am just so friggin bad and guilty myself. I don't know how I could raise a child and expect them to not want a phone or to not give into the urge to give the phone when the child wants it.
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What's kind of sad, I don't think I'd survive in your house Bosk.
:lol
Now THAT would make a great reality series.
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At the very least, it is habit-forming, and we are just trying to do our best to point that out and to do things that cause them to be more aware of making conscious decisions to use or not use it rather than just being on autopilot. And believe me, it is equally to my benefit.
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The amount of evidence showing adolescents are now addicted to devices is staggering. Go watch the addiction/technology video by Simon Sinek. It's alarming. To counter that, there are also articles I've read recently that suggest a 'backlash' is coming ... ala a 'metoo' movement against technology.
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The amount of evidence showing adolescents are now addicted to devices is staggering. Go watch the addiction/technology video by Simon Sinek. It's alarming. To counter that, there are also articles I've read recently that suggest a 'backlash' is coming ... ala a 'metoo' movement against technology.
Do you feel that backlash will come from the generation of people that grew up with it, having never known anything else (Like someone born in 2005) or from people that were born before it became ubiquitous?
I was born in 86 and was mid twenties when I created my first facebook account and started to engage in all that. I found it making me more anxious and not really adding all that much to my life, so around 28 I deleted all social media. Got rid of facebook, twitter and instagram and feel like for me personally, that was a positive decision.
The only form of social media I still participate in is this Forum, which I feel brings very fulfilling and deeper discourse than the conventional social media.
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The amount of evidence showing adolescents are now addicted to devices is staggering. Go watch the addiction/technology video by Simon Sinek. It's alarming. To counter that, there are also articles I've read recently that suggest a 'backlash' is coming ... ala a 'metoo' movement against technology.
I'll believe it when I see it, I don't see a backlash coming against tech but I could see a bit of that going against like facebook or something. I would say it already seems people have backlashed against Facebook.
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I was born in 86
I graduated high school in '86. :lol
The only form of social media I still participate in is this Forum, which I feel brings very fulfilling and deeper discourse than the conventional social media.
On this, I am totally with you! Totally.
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The amount of evidence showing adolescents are now addicted to devices is staggering. Go watch the addiction/technology video by Simon Sinek. It's alarming. To counter that, there are also articles I've read recently that suggest a 'backlash' is coming ... ala a 'metoo' movement against technology.
I'll believe it when I see it, I don't see a backlash coming against tech but I could see a bit of that going against like facebook or something. I would say it already seems people have backlashed against Facebook.
I'm not going to post the whole article here, but The Coming Tech Backlash (https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/coming-big-tech-backlash-don-peppers/?trk=eml-email_feed_ecosystem_digest_01-recommended_articles-5-Unknown&midToken=AQHU_aaaPNSN5w&fromEmail=fromEmail&ut=3orRGL5d8kYUw1) is the latest one I've read.
Of course, no one should minimize the immense value each of these companies has already created for the world’s consumers. Still, the fact is that they now profit handsomely by suppressing competition and selling users’ personal data, while simultaneously generating a tsunami of financial catastrophes and job losses for offline companies in traditionally strong sectors, from retailing and distribution to media and telecommunications.
I think that younger generations will turn on them - over the lack of privacy / use of personal data topic. The Millennial / Gen Z generations are all about 'changing the world' and having purpose. Traditional business models that favor profitability above all else, and the 'too big to fail' aspect now bleeding in to Tech could very well be their downfall. Not to mention most of the Big Tech hide their profits in places like Ireland, and have gobs and gobs of cash just sitting around, while the US deficit continues to cruise along - just about ti hit $22T.
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Yea, the data mining and selling is what could cause the backlash for sure, but I didnt think about the gobs of cash and that angle. I don't know, it could definitely happen. I guess I just can't imagine a world where tech isn't there anymore nor a world where people who lived with tech no longer want any of it.
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Gary, our approach is similar to yours (not worth getting into all the nuances, but it's close enough). But I find that one of the challenges we face with our kids at 13 and 15 is just habitual nature of reaching for the phone for whatever, whether it be "lemme get in one quick game" or "so and so is messaging me" or whatever. So we try to be actively involved in calling that out. Even if their time on the phone on a given day isn't "excessive" or they aren't violating their screen time allowance, if they are reaching for the screen during family time or time when company is over, or it looks like they are just mindlessly pulling out the phone out of habit, or whatever, we will call a "time out" and talk about it, sometimes making them put it away for an hour or so, or doing whatever else seems appropriate under the circumstances.
We're combating that right now. And it's not just the kids...it's my wife and I also. In fact....two weeks ago I instituted the 6:00 pm curfew on tablets/phones for us all. No screen time/phones/tv after 6:00. The caveat being that if it's a TV program we watch as a family then we all watch together. As a family we enjoy Survivor, The Goldbergs....things like that. And as long as it's a family deal the TV is fine. And...if there is a phone call or important text we address it....otherwise....no phones.
We were just getting to a point where everyone fractured off into their own little 'worlds' far too often. Two of the Three of my boys are really good about when they get home from school their out the door to the neighborhood buddies and they play for a few hours. My youngest was/is getting far to comfortable disappearing into his iPad so we're getting that under control now. And, as for my wife and I....we noticed that we too would just get on the phone or iPad and vanish for a bit. It is a habit and one that we're addressing.
As far as the Playstation and when they can play games that's just an earned time deal. They can earn (4) hours of gaming time on the weekends throughout the week.... but the weekend is the only time they get to play the Playstation. There are some times here and there we will allow them to go over (4) hours....if they're having a sleep over or something then we'll let them exceed it....but all in all they have to earn the time and then it's up to them how they use it as far as what game(s) they play.
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We're combating that right now. And it's not just the kids...it's my wife and I also. In fact....two weeks ago I instituted the 6:00 pm curfew on tablets/phones for us all. No screen time/phones/tv after 6:00. The caveat being that if it's a TV program we watch as a family then we all watch together. As a family we enjoy Survivor, The Goldbergs....things like that. And as long as it's a family deal the TV is fine. And...if there is a phone call or important text we address it....otherwise....no phones.
Wow!
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We're combating that right now. And it's not just the kids...it's my wife and I also. In fact....two weeks ago I instituted the 6:00 pm curfew on tablets/phones for us all. No screen time/phones/tv after 6:00. The caveat being that if it's a TV program we watch as a family then we all watch together. As a family we enjoy Survivor, The Goldbergs....things like that. And as long as it's a family deal the TV is fine. And...if there is a phone call or important text we address it....otherwise....no phones.
Wow!
I know it's drastic but we need(ed) to get the whole phone/tablet/tv thing under control. It's easy to get relaxed and just let the kids do whatever and then us just getting lost in the phone....so we're just trying to get some 'order' to it all. It's a constant battle.
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That is pretty impressive
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One of the biggest mistakes I see parents making is not limiting their own screen time when they try to limit their children's, and not reading/having creative hobbies/going to the gym but trying to make their kids pick these habits up. "Don't do as I do, do as I say" has never worked on anyone. Of course, you can do everything right and still get screen-addicted kids, which is why I'm kinda terrified of the trajectory of this crazy boat we're on.
I'm terrified of a lot of things tbh. I have a major case of (like Jenna Marbles would say) the too-much gene (https://youtu.be/JXms7IOOXQw), I want everything, right now, and I get stupidly angry about not having that, due to the nature of life. The only reason why I'm a person who acts reasonable is because I grew up poor in a small place with two siblings to share things and experiences with. There's no way I can simulate these conditions and frankly no one would want that.
So I also worry about my potential future kids being spoiled. I worry about what to tell them about being bullied because I was bullied for literally 8 years non stop in elementary school - as soon as one bully would get bored with my lack of response, another one or two would pick up the slack. I was like a beacon and my signal was THIS PERSON IS RIPE TO BE PICKED ON. I even got picked on by unfamiliar kids from other classes, without saying a word to them or even looking in their direction. I have nothing to say except "it gets better... if you're lucky enough to go to a decent high school".
I can offer a lot of good advice and I'm a good role model in a lot of other areas, but in some I'm just... tragically lacking.
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One of the biggest mistakes I see parents making is not limiting their own screen time when they try to limit their children's, and not reading/having creative hobbies/going to the gym but trying to make their kids pick these habits up. "Don't do as I do, do as I say" has never worked on anyone. Of course, you can do everything right and still get screen-addicted kids, which is why I'm kinda terrified of the trajectory of this crazy boat we're on.
I'm terrified of a lot of things tbh. I have a major case of (like Jenna Marbles would say) the too-much gene (https://youtu.be/JXms7IOOXQw), I want everything, right now, and I get stupidly angry about not having that, due to the nature of life. The only reason why I'm a person who acts reasonable is because I grew up poor in a small place with two siblings to share things and experiences with. There's no way I can simulate these conditions and frankly no one would want that.
So I also worry about my potential future kids being spoiled. I worry about what to tell them about being bullied because I was bullied for literally 8 years non stop in elementary school - as soon as one bully would get bored with my lack of response, another one or two would pick up the slack. I was like a beacon and my signal was THIS PERSON IS RIPE TO BE PICKED ON. I even got picked on by unfamiliar kids from other classes, without saying a word to them or even looking in their direction. I have nothing to say except "it gets better... if you're lucky enough to go to a decent high school".
I can offer a lot of good advice and I'm a good role model in a lot of other areas, but in some I'm just... tragically lacking.
From your brief description/post I can see that we have a bit in common. From the conditions we were raised in to the bullying. Anytime my wife learns another detail from my childhood she asks/says to me something along the lines of “it’s amazing that you’ve ended up the person you are”. NOT that I’m an amazing person :lol FAR from that. But that given some of the circumstances from my childhood there’s plenty of excuses there for me to have been a major F up and issue for society. I’ve basically structured my life and decisions doing the exact opposite of everything I saw growing up.
The bullying was just something that came along with being a very short kid. I was just a tiny kid that was a magnet for the ‘big’ kids to pick on. Looking back on it sure it sucked but it made me pretty tough because I was in a fight or wrestling match at least once a week for pretty much the duration of my elementary schooling. But I’ve used that experience to help with raising my own kids so I’m actually thankful for it.
Your point about parents needing to lead by example hits home. That’s a major issue that my wife and I are trying to tackle head on. It’s freaking tough. I’ll admit that I turn to my phone entirely too often and am trying to break the ‘habit’ of just flipping through the phone. The 6:00 rule we have helps....but there are still times where there’s really no reason for me to be looking at my phone yet I find myself doing it.
I know ‘entitlement’ is a buzzword that can start a massive debate but it seems to me that’s the word that can best describe the purveying attitude if the kids in our society. The instant gratification and the want/now is pretty bad....BUT....that’s no one’s fault but the parents. I know as a parent you ‘want’ your kid to have everything and you want them to be able to do all sorts of cool things. But, you know....its good for kids to be ‘bored’ sometimes. It forces them to get creative to pass time and break from their habits and forces them to improvise life a bit.
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Here goes a breaking story. Child has temper tantrum, will not listen. So dad just drags her by the hood of her coat to where they need to go
http://www.fox32chicago.com/news/dont-miss/dad-dragging-daughter-through-airport-by-hood-goes-viral
I don't have kids, but I was always told that if they throw themselves on the floor and start a tantrum and refuse to come with you, then you just say "ok bye" and start walking away. (basically not playing their game)
Does anyone have experience with that trick? Did it work? How did you guys deal with temper tantrums? What did you find to be most effective and least effective?
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One of the biggest mistakes I see parents making is not limiting their own screen time when they try to limit their children's, and not reading/having creative hobbies/going to the gym but trying to make their kids pick these habits up. "Don't do as I do, do as I say" has never worked on anyone. Of course, you can do everything right and still get screen-addicted kids, which is why I'm kinda terrified of the trajectory of this crazy boat we're on.
I'm terrified of a lot of things tbh. I have a major case of (like Jenna Marbles would say) the too-much gene (https://youtu.be/JXms7IOOXQw), I want everything, right now, and I get stupidly angry about not having that, due to the nature of life. The only reason why I'm a person who acts reasonable is because I grew up poor in a small place with two siblings to share things and experiences with. There's no way I can simulate these conditions and frankly no one would want that.
So I also worry about my potential future kids being spoiled. I worry about what to tell them about being bullied because I was bullied for literally 8 years non stop in elementary school - as soon as one bully would get bored with my lack of response, another one or two would pick up the slack. I was like a beacon and my signal was THIS PERSON IS RIPE TO BE PICKED ON. I even got picked on by unfamiliar kids from other classes, without saying a word to them or even looking in their direction. I have nothing to say except "it gets better... if you're lucky enough to go to a decent high school".
I can offer a lot of good advice and I'm a good role model in a lot of other areas, but in some I'm just... tragically lacking.
From your brief description/post I can see that we have a bit in common. From the conditions we were raised in to the bullying. Anytime my wife learns another detail from my childhood she asks/says to me something along the lines of “it’s amazing that you’ve ended up the person you are”. NOT that I’m an amazing person :lol FAR from that. But that given some of the circumstances from my childhood there’s plenty of excuses there for me to have been a major F up and issue for society. I’ve basically structured my life and decisions doing the exact opposite of everything I saw growing up.
The bullying was just something that came along with being a very short kid. I was just a tiny kid that was a magnet for the ‘big’ kids to pick on. Looking back on it sure it sucked but it made me pretty tough because I was in a fight or wrestling match at least once a week for pretty much the duration of my elementary schooling. But I’ve used that experience to help with raising my own kids so I’m actually thankful for it.
Your point about parents needing to lead by example hits home. That’s a major issue that my wife and I are trying to tackle head on. It’s freaking tough. I’ll admit that I turn to my phone entirely too often and am trying to break the ‘habit’ of just flipping through the phone. The 6:00 rule we have helps....but there are still times where there’s really no reason for me to be looking at my phone yet I find myself doing it.
I know ‘entitlement’ is a buzzword that can start a massive debate but it seems to me that’s the word that can best describe the purveying attitude if the kids in our society. The instant gratification and the want/now is pretty bad....BUT....that’s no one’s fault but the parents. I know as a parent you ‘want’ your kid to have everything and you want them to be able to do all sorts of cool things. But, you know....its good for kids to be ‘bored’ sometimes. It forces them to get creative to pass time and break from their habits and forces them to improvise life a bit.
I have a hard time with the phone as well. I've resulted in just leaving it up in my room. Out of site, out of mind.
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I'd ignore them. If we were in public, I could give a rats ass about what other people thought. NEVER NEVER NEVER concede and reward bad behaviour. Kids aren't stupid, they learn quick - that either they'll get what they want, or they won't. I don't remember any horrible situations with jingle.kids, but I know we NEVER gave in to any antics.
I've posted this before, but this guy is my hero in this regard.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBi9jaOFcRU
Patience.... less than 5 minutes for this kid to go from wailing to giggles. Now, some kids got more willpower and lung power than this one, but as grown-assed adults, a parent's willpower needs to be stronger than that of their kids.
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The bullying was just something that came along with being a very short kid. I was just a tiny kid that was a magnet for the ‘big’ kids to pick on. Looking back on it sure it sucked but it made me pretty tough because I was in a fight or wrestling match at least once a week for pretty much the duration of my elementary schooling. But I’ve used that experience to help with raising my own kids so I’m actually thankful for it.
My bullying sucked as kid. I went to a catholic school and was with the same, small group of 18 kids for 9 years. I was the only fat kid in class, was socially awkward, and was a very easy target. I tried to defend myself once and got the shit kicked out of me and choked on the ground in front of everyone. It fucked with me really bad. I stopped trying to be friends with others and just found it easier to be alone and commented on from afar rather than trying to insert myself into groups only to get constantly ripped on. That followed me through high school, where the bullying persisted, but in a slightly different form. It was less direct name calling and more physiological. At gym I'd always get picked for the skins team in basketball so I had to take my shirt off and stuff like that. I hated it.
As ass backwards as this sounds, and for as many problems that alcohol created for me in college, boozing up was the only thing that allowed me to get out of that mindset. For the first time in life I was able to comfortably try and socialize and work my way into new groups of people.
I'm not saying this applies to you, and I get "kids will be kids", but being constantly bullied as a kid can mess people up a lot more than I think most people realize, especially those who weren't bullied much. It made me not want to go to school, it made me not want to be around others, it trained me to think there was something inherently wrong with the way I was, it made me hate myself, it made me jealous, it made me angry, and it really inhibited by ability to form relationships with other humans.
I'm just thankful camera phones and Twitter weren't a thing back then.
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The bullying was just something that came along with being a very short kid. I was just a tiny kid that was a magnet for the ‘big’ kids to pick on. Looking back on it sure it sucked but it made me pretty tough because I was in a fight or wrestling match at least once a week for pretty much the duration of my elementary schooling. But I’ve used that experience to help with raising my own kids so I’m actually thankful for it.
My bullying sucked as kid. I went to a catholic school and was with the same, small group of 18 kids for 9 years. I was the only fat kid in class, was socially awkward, and was a very easy target. I tried to defend myself once and got the shit kicked out of me and choked on the ground in front of everyone. It fucked with me really bad. I stopped trying to be friends with others and just found it easier to be alone and commented on from afar rather than trying to insert myself into groups only to get constantly ripped on. That followed me through high school, where the bullying persisted, but in a slightly different form. It was less direct name calling and more physiological. At gym the I'd always get picked for the skins team in basketball so I had to take my shirt off and stuff like that. I hated it.
As ass backwards as this sounds, and for as many problems that alcohol created for me in college, boozing up was the only thing that allowed me to get out of that mindset. For the first time in life I was able to comfortably try and socialize and work my way into new groups of people.
I'm not saying this applies to you, and I get "kids will be kids", but being constantly bullied as a kid can mess people up a lot more than I think most people realize, especially those who weren't bullied much. It made me not want to go to school, it made me not want to be around others, it trained me to think there was something inherently wrong with the way I was, it made me hate myself, it made me jealous, it made me angry, and it really inhibited by ability to form relationships with other humans.
Completely agree about how detrimental bullying can be. And, your situation of being in a private school with a small class of the same kids is one of the handful of factors that we considered when we took our boys out of private school. Once your 'position' is established in a group like that there really isn't a whole lot you can do to get out of it.
I 'overcame' my bullying by basically becoming 'Chandlar' from FRIENDS. I used 'being funny' and a lot of self deprecating humor along with never turning down a dare to work my way into some sort of social standing with the 'cool' kids. Dying on the inside and remained desperate for 'their' approval.....such a messed up way to grow up. Totally get the alcohol use as well. I started drinking in 8th grade with a couple buddies and although I didn't consciously know it at the time but used it as a way to 'deal' with the issues I had from being bullied. I've shared this here before...but I was also a victim of sexual molestation at the hands of an older male cousin when I was 9....right in the thick of elementary bullying for being under 4 foot tall.....so, all that led me to really find solace in drinking and later in my early 20's heavy pot use.
Like I mentioned....at this point I'm glad to have gone through it if it allows me to be able to help my sons with anything they're going to face. I'd do it all again plus more if it'll guarantee me that I'd have the advice and support and the 'answers' for them in their time of need.
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The bullying was just something that came along with being a very short kid. I was just a tiny kid that was a magnet for the ‘big’ kids to pick on. Looking back on it sure it sucked but it made me pretty tough because I was in a fight or wrestling match at least once a week for pretty much the duration of my elementary schooling. But I’ve used that experience to help with raising my own kids so I’m actually thankful for it.
My bullying sucked as kid. I went to a catholic school and was with the same, small group of 18 kids for 9 years. I was the only fat kid in class, was socially awkward, and was a very easy target. I tried to defend myself once and got the shit kicked out of me and choked on the ground in front of everyone. It fucked with me really bad. I stopped trying to be friends with others and just found it easier to be alone and commented on from afar rather than trying to insert myself into groups only to get constantly ripped on. That followed me through high school, where the bullying persisted, but in a slightly different form. It was less direct name calling and more physiological. At gym the I'd always get picked for the skins team in basketball so I had to take my shirt off and stuff like that. I hated it.
As ass backwards as this sounds, and for as many problems that alcohol created for me in college, boozing up was the only thing that allowed me to get out of that mindset. For the first time in life I was able to comfortably try and socialize and work my way into new groups of people.
I'm not saying this applies to you, and I get "kids will be kids", but being constantly bullied as a kid can mess people up a lot more than I think most people realize, especially those who weren't bullied much. It made me not want to go to school, it made me not want to be around others, it trained me to think there was something inherently wrong with the way I was, it made me hate myself, it made me jealous, it made me angry, and it really inhibited by ability to form relationships with other humans.
Completely agree about how detrimental bullying can be. And, your situation of being in a private school with a small class of the same kids is one of the handful of factors that we considered when we took our boys out of private school. Once your 'position' is established in a group like that there really isn't a whole lot you can do to get out of it.
I 'overcame' my bullying by basically becoming 'Chandlar' from FRIENDS. I used 'being funny' and a lot of self deprecating humor along with never turning down a dare to work my way into some sort of social standing with the 'cool' kids. Dying on the inside and remained desperate for 'their' approval.....such a messed up way to grow up. Totally get the alcohol use as well. I started drinking in 8th grade with a couple buddies and although I didn't consciously know it at the time but used it as a way to 'deal' with the issues I had from being bullied. I've shared this here before...but I was also a victim of sexual molestation at the hands of an older male cousin when I was 9....right in the thick of elementary bullying for being under 4 foot tall.....so, all that led me to really find solace in drinking and later in my early 20's heavy pot use.
Like I mentioned....at this point I'm glad to have gone through it if it allows me to be able to help my sons with anything they're going to face. I'd do it all again plus more if it'll guarantee me that I'd have the advice and support and the 'answers' for them in their time of need.
Yeah, the tiny class size was without question the worst component. At least in high school I had different classes with different people on different days. Prior to that, it was the same 18 in the same room, day in and day out. There was no escaping it. There was no library to go to during free period. It was constant and never ending. Like you said, once your position is established, it's tough to change it. In 6th grade you aren't suddenly going to be seen differently than you were in grades K-5, and it's not like any new options come along. You kind of get locked in.
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I'd ignore them. If we were in public, I could give a rats ass about what other people thought. NEVER NEVER NEVER concede and reward bad behaviour. Kids aren't stupid, they learn quick - that either they'll get what they want, or they won't. I don't remember any horrible situations with jingle.kids, but I know we NEVER gave in to any antics.
This and double this.
My brother in law has a son who is now 6 years old. He always starts a tantrum when he doesn't get what he wants. And my brother in law and his wife always give in to him because they don't want to cope with his tantrums. And he knows it, he's a clever little brat. He uses this to always get his way. And the parents despair, because they don't know how to educate him. But they won't listen to my wife and me when we point out where the problem lies. And now they have a girl who's turned two recently, and she's learning very quick from her brother. >:(
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I remember reading an interesting write up a few years back about why it's so hard for parents to not give in, and it seems like genetics and instinctive wiring plays a large role. It wasn't until fairly recently (a few decades) that a children would throw a tantrum for something that wasn't a necessity. Kids today scream because they want the toy, or the candy bar in the store, or whatever, but for the rest of human evolution, a kid threw a tantrum because they were hungry, they were cold, they were thirsty, they hurt, etc... It was in the parents best interest to tend to the child as quickly as possible because screams are a really good way to let a cougar know your position. We still carry that wiring today.
Not saying that's an excuse.
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I remember reading an interesting write up a few years back about why it's so hard for parents to not give in, and it seems like genetics and instinctive wiring plays a large role. It wasn't until fairly recently (a few decades) that a children would throw a tantrum for something that wasn't a necessity. Kids today scream because they want the toy, or the candy bar in the store, or whatever, but for the rest of human evolution, a kid threw a tantrum because they were hungry, they were cold, they were thirsty, they hurt, etc... It was in the parents best interest to tend to the child as quickly as possible because screams are a really good way to let a cougar know your position. We still carry that wiring today.
Not saying that's an excuse.
You're right. Kids throw a tantrum for a healthy reason. Before they have the ability to ask for things, it's often the only way to get basic needs met. Humans find the act so annoying and distressing that we give in and meet their needs. It's a good arrangement in that sense. The problem is when the behavior carries over when it is no longer adaptive. A child throwing a tantrum because they did not get what they asked for is not helpful. A child throwing a tantrum because they are not getting an actual need met, is something that still needs to be attended to. So if it's for a candy bar or a toy or something, ignore it. If your child is EXTREMELY tired or very hungry and really needs those things, give it to them. It can't be 100% black and white where we ignore the child anytime they need something more intensely, but also we can't promote the behavior as a means of getting what they want whenever.
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I remember reading an interesting write up a few years back about why it's so hard for parents to not give in, and it seems like genetics and instinctive wiring plays a large role. It wasn't until fairly recently (a few decades) that a children would throw a tantrum for something that wasn't a necessity. Kids today scream because they want the toy, or the candy bar in the store, or whatever, but for the rest of human evolution, a kid threw a tantrum because they were hungry, they were cold, they were thirsty, they hurt, etc... It was in the parents best interest to tend to the child as quickly as possible because screams are a really good way to let a cougar know your position. We still carry that wiring today.
Not saying that's an excuse.
You're right. Kids throw a tantrum for a healthy reason. Before they have the ability to ask for things, it's often the only way to get basic needs met. Humans find the act so annoying and distressing that we give in and meet their needs. It's a good arrangement in that sense. The problem is when the behavior carries over when it is no longer adaptive. A child throwing a tantrum because they did not get what they asked for is not helpful. A child throwing a tantrum because they are not getting an actual need met, is something that still needs to be attended to. So if it's for a candy bar or a toy or something, ignore it. If your child is EXTREMELY tired or very hungry and really needs those things, give it to them. It can't be 100% black and white where we ignore the child anytime they need something more intensely, but also we can't promote the behavior as a means of getting what they want whenever.
Right, I'm just pointing out that it wasn't until recently that children had anything to throw a tantrum over that wasn't a necessity, and as such, it hasn't been until recently that parents have had to start differentiating between types of tantrums.
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Oh yea, wasn't disagreeing with you. Just expanding on certain things.
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Normally as a parent you see if your kids have a real need or if they just want to get their way.
When my kids are hungry they get food. When they only want chocolate "because they are hungry", then maybe not.
That doesn't mean that you always say no, there are times when chocolate is okay. But you just can't give in to every drama your kids start.
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Normally as a parent you see if your kids have a real need or if they just want to get their way.
When my kids are hungry they get food. When they only want chocolate "because they are hungry", then maybe not.
That doesn't mean that you always say no, there are times when chocolate is okay. But you just can't give in to every drama your kids start.
They will get nothing and like it!
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I've only picked up my daughter and carried her out of a public place once due to a tantrum. I put her over my shoulder and let her cry and scream while we walked out. I wouldn't ever drag her by her clothes like that video (in fact, my daughter would find that to be a lot of fun), but I certainly would hold her hand/arm and lead her out as well.
When we're at home, I might ignore a tantrum or guide my kids into better behavior to achieve what they want (ask the right way or eat item A before you're allowed to have item B). But when we're in public, tantrums aren't acceptable and we will just pick up and leave and go home, rather than ignore their behavior and annoy everyone else around us by letting the kids cry and scream. If the kid is resisting going home, well then they're going to lose when I just pick them up and carry them out.
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The bullying was just something that came along with being a very short kid. I was just a tiny kid that was a magnet for the ‘big’ kids to pick on. Looking back on it sure it sucked but it made me pretty tough because I was in a fight or wrestling match at least once a week for pretty much the duration of my elementary schooling. But I’ve used that experience to help with raising my own kids so I’m actually thankful for it.
My bullying sucked as kid. I went to a catholic school and was with the same, small group of 18 kids for 9 years. I was the only fat kid in class, was socially awkward, and was a very easy target. I tried to defend myself once and got the shit kicked out of me and choked on the ground in front of everyone. It fucked with me really bad. I stopped trying to be friends with others and just found it easier to be alone and commented on from afar rather than trying to insert myself into groups only to get constantly ripped on. That followed me through high school, where the bullying persisted, but in a slightly different form. It was less direct name calling and more physiological. At gym I'd always get picked for the skins team in basketball so I had to take my shirt off and stuff like that. I hated it.
As ass backwards as this sounds, and for as many problems that alcohol created for me in college, boozing up was the only thing that allowed me to get out of that mindset. For the first time in life I was able to comfortably try and socialize and work my way into new groups of people.
I'm not saying this applies to you, and I get "kids will be kids", but being constantly bullied as a kid can mess people up a lot more than I think most people realize, especially those who weren't bullied much. It made me not want to go to school, it made me not want to be around others, it trained me to think there was something inherently wrong with the way I was, it made me hate myself, it made me jealous, it made me angry, and it really inhibited by ability to form relationships with other humans.
I'm just thankful camera phones and Twitter weren't a thing back then.
Is it insensitive or uncaring to suggest there's bullying, and there's "bullying"? I sort of think that - based on how you describe it - that's bullying. I was short and skinny up into high school, and while I played sports (and was good at them) I was also in the "brain" classes, so rather than be "in" two groups, I was "out" of two groups. So I got made fun of, and left out, and everyone always said that "Ann Lazer (she was also short) and I would have to marry and we'd have midget kids" (funny enough, she turned out to be HOT, oh well) but while it made me tougher in the long run, I don't have any of the experience that you did, and so I hesitate to even call it bullying. It's more "bullying". Is there a legit difference?
I ask this because I have two kids still in school, and a third that just graduated a year or so ago. The oldest of those was hardcore bullied, to the point she missed half her senior year of high school, and but for the fact that her school sucked, and needed the "numbers", she likely wouldn't have graduated. The other two are more akin to Gary and I. And I struggle with that; what's the difference, if any? Should I be doing anything different? What about the "anti-bullying culture"? Do I now HAVE to act on behalf of my other daughter and step son, for fear they'll see the stories and think, "Dad, where the f--- were you??" I suppose it's a matter of degrees, but some of what I see as "bullying" is hard to accept as such, but then I hear stories like yours, Chino, and my step daughter (yes, we did a lot, including involving the police), and realize it's a real thing.
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The bullying was just something that came along with being a very short kid. I was just a tiny kid that was a magnet for the ‘big’ kids to pick on. Looking back on it sure it sucked but it made me pretty tough because I was in a fight or wrestling match at least once a week for pretty much the duration of my elementary schooling. But I’ve used that experience to help with raising my own kids so I’m actually thankful for it.
My bullying sucked as kid. I went to a catholic school and was with the same, small group of 18 kids for 9 years. I was the only fat kid in class, was socially awkward, and was a very easy target. I tried to defend myself once and got the shit kicked out of me and choked on the ground in front of everyone. It fucked with me really bad. I stopped trying to be friends with others and just found it easier to be alone and commented on from afar rather than trying to insert myself into groups only to get constantly ripped on. That followed me through high school, where the bullying persisted, but in a slightly different form. It was less direct name calling and more physiological. At gym I'd always get picked for the skins team in basketball so I had to take my shirt off and stuff like that. I hated it.
As ass backwards as this sounds, and for as many problems that alcohol created for me in college, boozing up was the only thing that allowed me to get out of that mindset. For the first time in life I was able to comfortably try and socialize and work my way into new groups of people.
I'm not saying this applies to you, and I get "kids will be kids", but being constantly bullied as a kid can mess people up a lot more than I think most people realize, especially those who weren't bullied much. It made me not want to go to school, it made me not want to be around others, it trained me to think there was something inherently wrong with the way I was, it made me hate myself, it made me jealous, it made me angry, and it really inhibited by ability to form relationships with other humans.
I'm just thankful camera phones and Twitter weren't a thing back then.
Is it insensitive or uncaring to suggest there's bullying, and there's "bullying"? I sort of think that - based on how you describe it - that's bullying. I was short and skinny up into high school, and while I played sports (and was good at them) I was also in the "brain" classes, so rather than be "in" two groups, I was "out" of two groups. So I got made fun of, and left out, and everyone always said that "Ann Lazer (she was also short) and I would have to marry and we'd have midget kids" (funny enough, she turned out to be HOT, oh well) but while it made me tougher in the long run, I don't have any of the experience that you did, and so I hesitate to even call it bullying. It's more "bullying". Is there a legit difference?
I ask this because I have two kids still in school, and a third that just graduated a year or so ago. The oldest of those was hardcore bullied, to the point she missed half her senior year of high school, and but for the fact that her school sucked, and needed the "numbers", she likely wouldn't have graduated. The other two are more akin to Gary and I. And I struggle with that; what's the difference, if any? Should I be doing anything different? What about the "anti-bullying culture"? Do I now HAVE to act on behalf of my other daughter and step son, for fear they'll see the stories and think, "Dad, where the f--- were you??" I suppose it's a matter of degrees, but some of what I see as "bullying" is hard to accept as such, but then I hear stories like yours, Chino, and my step daughter (yes, we did a lot, including involving the police), and realize it's a real thing.
There are different degrees of bullying for sure, at least I think so. First and foremost, there's the difference between physical and non-physical bullying, but I also think there is a line somewhere that separates teasing from bullying. Kids tease each other all the time, it sucks, but I do think those are the growing pains of childhood (within reason). It's hard to say where the line is though. For me, having other kids wanting to see me take my shirt off in gym glass in front of the girls on the other side of the gym wasn't teasing. That was bullying, the sole intent being to make me miserable. That was the systematic selection of a type of embarrassment for no reason other than to make me feel like shit. Whereas someone calling me fat in front of my classmates could have other motives besides just hurting me. Part of that has to do with the person doing the name calling trying to look cool in front of others, and could maybe be considered more along the lines of teasing given the context.
My seventh grade teacher made a comment to me, literally in front of the entire class, saying something like "I don't know why you're laughing, you're quite the chunker yourself", to which the entire class began roaring with laughter. That's bullying, and coming from a mother of three teaching at a catholic school, was fucking bullshit. I never told my parents about the stuff I had to deal with out of fear they'd contact the school and it would eventually just turn into another thing the bullies could use ("mama's boy", etc).
Now that I'm thinking about your "there's bullying, and there's "bullying" " comment in some depth, I think there is bullying, and then there's straight up harassment. I was harassed as a kid.
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Normally as a parent you see if your kids have a real need or if they just want to get their way.
When my kids are hungry they get food. When they only want chocolate "because they are hungry", then maybe not.
That doesn't mean that you always say no, there are times when chocolate is okay. But you just can't give in to every drama your kids start.
They will get nothing and like it!
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/32/b4/4c/32b44c3ac039bb692573bbed2b0b9e4e.jpg)
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They will get nothing and like it.
https://youtu.be/0f6l1QljpMo
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They will get nothing and like it.
https://youtu.be/0f6l1QljpMo
Yea, that’s what I......or apparently Jingle......was referencing.
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As a parent of 2 kids (both girls 6 and almost 3) one of the constant struggles I have is straddling the line between being a hardass and giving in. I 100% believe that the entitlement culture we have going on is not a good thing and I want to try to raise my kids to appreciate the things they have and also learn how to be respectful and to listen and follow directions. I got in an argument with my 6 year old last nigh because she wanted to use a cookie cutter on her sandwich which I said no to. She ended up stealing the sandwich and used the cutter her self. Both of us lost it and start yelling at each other over a sandwich which in hindsight seems ridiculous. But at the time in my mind I was upset because she disobeyed my instructions and I'm sure she was pissed because she didn't get her way. I need to do a better job not emotionally escalating the situation but man that can be hard to do at the end of a long day.
Parenting is hard.
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But at the time in my mind I was upset because she disobeyed my instructions and I'm sure she was pissed because she didn't get her way. I need to do a better job not emotionally escalating the situation but man that can be hard to do at the end of a long day.
I feel ya man. It's tough....especially because it seems your kids know 'exactly' how to get on your last nerve.
I have a constant struggle with my middle son NOT because he's some horrible kid but because (unfortunately) he's pretty much a replica of me. Not just physically which is pretty close but more mentally/emotionally etc etc.....it's pretty uncanny. My wife thinks it's funny at times and often says "hows it feel arguing with yourself?" He's a good kid but there are times when him and I have been at each other. I think with him especially I've had some of my most 'not proud' moments as a father.....those moments when you really regret how you handled a situation.
Parenting is hard.
It certainly is. I feel for the single parents out there because if I didn't have my wife to lean on and 'trade off' with I'd certainly go insane.....most undoubtedly wouldn't have made it to 10 years sober :lol
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I have a constant struggle with my middle son NOT because he's some horrible kid but because (unfortunately) he's pretty much a replica of me. Not just physically which is pretty close but more mentally/emotionally etc etc.....it's pretty uncanny. My wife thinks it's funny at times and often says "hows it feel arguing with yourself?" He's a good kid but there are times when him and I have been at each other. I think with him especially I've had some of my most 'not proud' moments as a father.....those moments when you really regret how you handled a situation.
Dude, this is my 3 1/2 year old daughter and my wife. They are exactly the same, and my wife struggles constantly to deal with basically a mini version of herself. Strong willed, independent, very similar personality ticks, etc... It's a tough thing, but a really cool thing at the same time because we can see so much of my wife in our child.
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Having only one child I don't feel qualified to give council here. My thought is to tell them have each others backs as brothers and stop being dicks.
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I have a constant struggle with my middle son NOT because he's some horrible kid but because (unfortunately) he's pretty much a replica of me. Not just physically which is pretty close but more mentally/emotionally etc etc.....it's pretty uncanny. My wife thinks it's funny at times and often says "hows it feel arguing with yourself?" He's a good kid but there are times when him and I have been at each other. I think with him especially I've had some of my most 'not proud' moments as a father.....those moments when you really regret how you handled a situation.
Dude, this is my 3 1/2 year old daughter and my wife. They are exactly the same, and my wife struggles constantly to deal with basically a mini version of herself. Strong willed, independent, very similar personality ticks, etc... It's a tough thing, but a really cool thing at the same time because we can see so much of my wife in our child.
Yep. Sounds identical to my situation. Even to the traits you described. 95% of the time it is really neat because we spend a lot of time together doing really cool stuff but man have we had some 'moments' when it comes to discipline.
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Yeah my older daughter is also very much like me. She is very smart for her age and I sometimes forget that she's only 6.
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Yep. Sounds identical to my situation. Even to the traits you described. 95% of the time it is really neat because we spend a lot of time together doing really cool stuff but man have we had some 'moments' when it comes to discipline.
Yeah my older daughter is also very much like me. She is very smart for her age and I sometimes forget that she's only 6.
I think something else that is tough about it (at least for us) is that you can see your own shortcomings in your kids sometimes. Nothing major for us yet with our daughter being so young, but little things like the way she processes certain emotions. We find ourselves trying to correct it, but then realize it's something she gets directly from us. :lol It's a good opportunity for some self-reflection I guess.
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As a parent of 2 kids (both girls 6 and almost 3) one of the constant struggles I have is straddling the line between being a hardass and giving in. I 100% believe that the entitlement culture we have going on is not a good thing and I want to try to raise my kids to appreciate the things they have and also learn how to be respectful and to listen and follow directions. I got in an argument with my 6 year old last nigh because she wanted to use a cookie cutter on her sandwich which I said no to. She ended up stealing the sandwich and used the cutter her self. Both of us lost it and start yelling at each other over a sandwich which in hindsight seems ridiculous. But at the time in my mind I was upset because she disobeyed my instructions and I'm sure she was pissed because she didn't get her way. I need to do a better job not emotionally escalating the situation but man that can be hard to do at the end of a long day.
Parenting is hard.
Well, no second-guessing here, because I wasn't there and I wouldn't dream of assuming I know better. But, I probably would have given a pass on the cookie cutter - absent something else, like danger - but I would have dropped the fucking hammer on the latter. We deal with this almost daily with my stepson (who is on the spectrum). He's very literal - VERY literal - and we struggle with the transition from dad's to mom's. (He has him two nights a week until 8 pm and every other weekend). Dad let's him do whatever the hell he wants - McDonald's for dinner at least once a week, unlimited cable, computer with internet, xBox, and tablet - and we, with the guidance of his therapist, his psychiatrist, his school psychologist and an independent psychiatrist that did a comprehensive study of him (where we got the autism diagnosis confirmed), have allowed some access but with firm limits of time and scope. So when he comes back, all limits and rules are out the window. We don't worry about what he does, necessarily, but how he does it.
Same with my daughter (who's still in high school). I try to be as lenient as I can, but I'm not her best friend. Being a senior, I try to balance the things that will have lasting impact that she should experience and what doesn't. Sometimes, not to be a dick, but I say no just because, so she knows that life isn't about a party every day. Granted she's at boarding school, so my input is limited at this point, but still. Like my stepson, though, my biggest battle is with the other parent not her.
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Yep. Sounds identical to my situation. Even to the traits you described. 95% of the time it is really neat because we spend a lot of time together doing really cool stuff but man have we had some 'moments' when it comes to discipline.
Yeah my older daughter is also very much like me. She is very smart for her age and I sometimes forget that she's only 6.
I think something else that is tough about it (at least for us) is that you can see your own shortcomings in your kids sometimes. Nothing major for us yet with our daughter being so young, but little things like the way she processes certain emotions. We find ourselves trying to correct it, but then realize it's something she gets directly from us. :lol It's a good opportunity for some self-reflection I guess.
Dude, we're LUCKY if we see our shortcomings in our kids; it's an opportunity to be self-reflective and perhaps even improve yourself. In my experience, not every parent is receptive to that kind of input, nor self-aware enough to see it when it's there.
I know for me, I'm a curious, curious person, to my benefit and detriment, and I struggle with balancing the "curiosity" of my kids with what is safe for them in this changing world. Porn is a good example; for me, growing up, it was a Hustler or Penthouse magazine. Honestly, with balance and a reminder that there are people on the other side of that picture that had to consent to their presence, what's the harm in that? Contrast that with today, where a simple Google search can give you 50 hits of photos of stuff that would get you 5 or 20 in the Fed pen for just having it, let alone taking pictures of it. Drugs are another; that doob being passed around the car back in '85 was either really good weed (which no doubt was there just out of dumb luck),regular tobacco, or oregano. No harm, no foul. Today? Who the fuck knows, from PCP to fentanyl, it's like playing Russian Roulette.
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Yep. Sounds identical to my situation. Even to the traits you described. 95% of the time it is really neat because we spend a lot of time together doing really cool stuff but man have we had some 'moments' when it comes to discipline.
Yeah my older daughter is also very much like me. She is very smart for her age and I sometimes forget that she's only 6.
I think something else that is tough about it (at least for us) is that you can see your own shortcomings in your kids sometimes. Nothing major for us yet with our daughter being so young, but little things like the way she processes certain emotions. We find ourselves trying to correct it, but then realize it's something she gets directly from us. :lol It's a good opportunity for some self-reflection I guess.
Dude, we're LUCKY if we see our shortcomings in our kids; it's an opportunity to be self-reflective and perhaps even improve yourself. In my experience, not every parent is receptive to that kind of input, nor self-aware enough to see it when it's there.
Oh yeah, don't get me wrong, I think it's a good thing for sure. It does two things for us - (1) helps us relate to our daughter and hopefully drive our actions in a productive direction and (2) helps us work on ourselves. I think it's definitely a good thing, it's just a hard thing (like all good things).
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As a parent of 2 kids (both girls 6 and almost 3) one of the constant struggles I have is straddling the line between being a hardass and giving in. I 100% believe that the entitlement culture we have going on is not a good thing and I want to try to raise my kids to appreciate the things they have and also learn how to be respectful and to listen and follow directions. I got in an argument with my 6 year old last nigh because she wanted to use a cookie cutter on her sandwich which I said no to. She ended up stealing the sandwich and used the cutter her self. Both of us lost it and start yelling at each other over a sandwich which in hindsight seems ridiculous. But at the time in my mind I was upset because she disobeyed my instructions and I'm sure she was pissed because she didn't get her way. I need to do a better job not emotionally escalating the situation but man that can be hard to do at the end of a long day.
Parenting is hard.
Don't think I'm picking on you, and don't take this personally. I'm just curious about your thought process because this is the kind of thing I think about when I ponder on being a parent one day.
What was the big deal about her using the cookie cutter on a sandwich? To me, that's harmless, exploratory, and inquisitive. Was it a "don't play with your food" kind of thing? Again, not knocking you, but I feel like that could have been segued into some kind of other lesson. "You see, ______. That's made for cookies, not sandwiches, and now it's all dirty. We're going to have to clean that after dinner". Then make the kid clean it and put it away. My mom used to get on my case for seemingly pointless stuff as a kid, and we fought, and fought, and fought.
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The issue is that he said no and she did it anyway. Sometimes as parents we say no to things for not very good reasons (especially seen in retrospect). I know for me I say no a lot when I see something creating extra work for me even if there's nothing particularly wrong with it. I expect my children to obey regardless of my reasoning. I've tried to teach them to state their case better if they want me reconsider something I've said no to, but they're a bit young to really get that yet. Especially when you have kids that ask a ton of things, it can almost become a reflex to say no because you're asked 10 stupid things for every one legit thing.
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The issue is that he said no and she did it anyway. Sometimes as parents we say no to things for not very good reasons (especially seen in retrospect). I know for me I say no a lot when I see something creating extra work for me even if there's nothing particularly wrong with it. I expect my children to obey regardless of my reasoning. I've tried to teach them to state their case better if they want me reconsider something I've said no to, but they're a bit young to really get that yet. Especially when you have kids that ask a ton of things, it can almost become a reflex to say no because you're asked 10 stupid things for every one legit thing.
Yeah...exactly this. The point is kids need to listen to their parents.....they don't know (and up to a certain age) and don't need to know the 'why'. My 'educated' parent guess is kaos knows that a cookie cutter is designed for a cookie and not a sandwich...alas...the 'struggle' to cut through the sandwich could lead to a couple things like maybe cutting herself....slipping and knocking over a glass of milk...etc etc. It's a 'don't play with your food' deal. The inquisitive nature she has can be satiated by other means. Teaching proper table manners is a mandatory responsibility.
I can't tell you how many times I say to any or all of my sons "I wasn't asking you" when it comes to something I've told them to do. Until their (18) they will respect mine and my wife's instructions. I'm not 'getting off' on telling my kids what to do like some power trip. 99% of what I tell them to do is teaching them something.....and, when they don't listen or try to argue the point they learn about discipline.
There are times when I'll walk them through an explanation of 'why' I've directed them to do something....when it's a teachable moment I know they'll grasp.
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As a parent of 2 kids (both girls 6 and almost 3) one of the constant struggles I have is straddling the line between being a hardass and giving in. I 100% believe that the entitlement culture we have going on is not a good thing and I want to try to raise my kids to appreciate the things they have and also learn how to be respectful and to listen and follow directions. I got in an argument with my 6 year old last nigh because she wanted to use a cookie cutter on her sandwich which I said no to. She ended up stealing the sandwich and used the cutter her self. Both of us lost it and start yelling at each other over a sandwich which in hindsight seems ridiculous. But at the time in my mind I was upset because she disobeyed my instructions and I'm sure she was pissed because she didn't get her way. I need to do a better job not emotionally escalating the situation but man that can be hard to do at the end of a long day.
Parenting is hard.
Don't think I'm picking on you, and don't take this personally. I'm just curious about your thought process because this is the kind of thing I think about when I ponder on being a parent one day.
What was the big deal about her using the cookie cutter on a sandwich? To me, that's harmless, exploratory, and inquisitive. Was it a "don't play with your food" kind of thing? Again, not knocking you, but I feel like that could have been segued into some kind of other lesson. "You see, ______. That's made for cookies, not sandwiches, and now it's all dirty. We're going to have to clean that after dinner". Then make the kid clean it and put it away. My mom used to get on my case for seemingly pointless stuff as a kid, and we fought, and fought, and fought.
No worries, and this is what I meant by in hindsight it seems petty and dumb. A little more back ground on this, earlier in the week she wanted to use this particular cookie cutter but couldn't find it so I did let her use another type that fit the size of the bread with little waste. Fast forward two days and she finds the cutter she wanted and it's almost twice the size of the bread. I tried to be diplomatic and offer to use it for something else on the weekend and she lost it because she didn't get her way. Upon reflection, my anger came from her not listening and also from the "i need to teach her that she doesn't always get what she wants" part of my brain.
I am continuously self reflecting and am trying to get better. In this instance I felt like ended up over reacting a bit especially since she was very well behaved the rest of the day. I ended up apologizing for my reaction and tried to explain to her that even though she broke the rules I shouldn't have reacted the way I did. I consider myself tough but fair and try to go out of my way to praise them when they do the right thing. Part of it just my personality though. I'm very hard on myself and strive to do the best I can all the time and I'm noticing I hold my daughters and even my wife to the standards I hold for myself which is not always fair.
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I'm not disagreeing with any action that comes after they disobey an order. I was more curious about the initial "no". Because as non-parent, that seems like no big deal to me. As a child, I was putting garden hoses down the oil inlet pipe to the furnace, shoving bagels in VCRs, and depositing my dad's coin collection into the floppy drives on his PCs. Wanting to turn a sandwich into a fun shape seems like small potatoes when I think about what children are capable of.
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When I was 18, it was just an assumed fact by my family that I was going to college. There was a mindset by them that if I didn't, then I would be some sort of failure. (Despite none of them going to college)
I don't have kids at the moment, but as long as they find a way to support themselves, then I am cool with them not going to college. but How do you guys feel about this college situation?
Imagine your child in in their senior year of high school and they come to you and say "I don't think college is for me". Are you cool with that, or would you still encourage college.
If I had a chance to do it again, I might pursue trade school. Pays pretty well from what I've seen.
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When I was 18, it was just an assumed fact by my family that I was going to college. There was a mindset by them that if I didn't, then I would be some sort of failure. (Despite none of them going to college)
I don't have kids at the moment, but as long as they find a way to support themselves, then I am cool with them not going to college. but How do you guys feel about this college situation?
Imagine your child in in their senior year of high school and they come to you and say "I don't think college is for me". Are you cool with that, or would you still encourage college.
Lived it not 12 months (fuck... it's actually almost 24 months now!) ago. Stepdaughter, but nonetheless. I know for me, I wanted her to go to college with every fibre of my being (and I would have paid; take the student loan thing off the table). Not because of "College! Job! 9 to 5!" but because she was dealing with some issues - a form of PTSD from her (real) dad's psychological abuse, psychological and physical abuse from a "boyfriend", bullying at school - she needed to get out of her little town. She needed to meet people and be thrust into an environment where she could - in a healthy way - reinvent herself as herself. She needed to stay up till 4 am siting in the hall talking about life and the meaning of the universe with other kids her age. She needed to understand in a controlled environment how to make decisions for herself without mom there to pick up the pieces.
She opted to elope with said boyfriend, who in classic abuser form, moved her five states away, where he's in the military and she's basically bored out of her titties. I'm Mr. Degree (I have three of them) but I'm pragmatic; I understand that it's not for everyone and I accept that. What I don't accept is not living up to your max capacity. I don't believe we are all truly "equal" in the sense that we all have different capacities, and it's unreasonable to ask everyone to live to the same standard. But rather than dumbing everyone down to the same standard (which, I have a sneaking suspicion, our society seems to want to do) I think we should all live to the best we can in the realm we choose. I'm sad for her, because she's likely going to be like some of the women I encountered when I got my divorce: 30, 35, a couple kids, still reasonably attractive but running out of enthusiasm, and realizing that the "cool guy" in high school/college, well, that shit isn't cool when he's still doing it at 35 and you're stuck home doing laundry and what not.
I'm speaking, by necessity, in generalities here because of course this isn't the case for everyone, but I think you get my point.
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When I was 18, it was just an assumed fact by my family that I was going to college. There was a mindset by them that if I didn't, then I would be some sort of failure. (Despite none of them going to college)
I don't have kids at the moment, but as long as they find a way to support themselves, then I am cool with them not going to college. but How do you guys feel about this college situation?
Imagine your child in in their senior year of high school and they come to you and say "I don't think college is for me". Are you cool with that, or would you still encourage college.
My dad is a 43 year union retiree. When I was 16 or 17 and the age where kids start applying to colleges, my parents gave me a choice. I apply to and go to college or I sign up for a trade school, learn a trade and join a union. They weren't going to let my brother and I be life-long retail employees. They wanted us to have a good job, good benefits and be able to plan towards retirement.
My kids are very young, but I will having similar conversations with them as they are teenagers. A college degree now is what a high school degree was for my parents' generation. You had to have one to get a decent job. So yes, they will be going to college in some manner, and I will recommend going away to a 4 year university like I and my wife did.
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I think it depends on the situation. I am not a parent so this is just hypothetical to how I would see things.
My parents very much said "go to college or you will fail". I did want to go and I knew it would be good for me, so I definitely wasn't forced, but I was effectively brainwashed into thinking it was necessary to get a college degree. I'm glad I did, it was best for me, but I do understand it is not best for everyone. The cost of college is a huge factor now, I don't think I would encourage my child to go to college and take out a loan if it meant their degree would not be helpful towards building a career to not only pay off the loan, but to be able to have a relatively comfortable life money wise. But I would have a hard time accepting a bum of a life from my child. If they weren't going to go to college, they would need to get a job and build towards a career in something immediately to earn a living and be a responsible adult.
College is more than just an education, it is about learning how life works and being on your own. It builds character. I'd encourage my child to attend but I wouldn't beat it into their head if their heart was somewhere else.
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College is more than just an education, it is about learning how life works and being on your own. It builds character. I'd encourage my child to attend but I wouldn't beat it into their head if their heart was somewhere else.
I have thoughs about college that are too complex to go in to here, but this is about where I am. Of course $100k is a lot of money to spend on "building character." You can do that getting a rundown apartment with some friends, working hard at the entry level job, and eating ramen 5 nights a week. I do take issue with "it is about learning how life works" though. What about college resembles "real life?" You go to the cafeteria where someone makes your meals, you go to your classes on racial equality and gender studies, play frisbee in the afternoon on the perfectly manicured grounds, you hit the frat or house party with more alcohol than some small countries, and have a wager with Otter and Boone to see who can coerce the most chicks back to your room by Christmas break.
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College is more than just an education, it is about learning how life works and being on your own. It builds character. I'd encourage my child to attend but I wouldn't beat it into their head if their heart was somewhere else.
I have thoughs about college that are too complex to go in to here, but this is about where I am. Of course $100k is a lot of money to spend on "building character." You can do that getting a rundown apartment with some friends, working hard at the entry level job, and eating ramen 5 nights a week. I do take issue with "it is about learning how life works" though. What about college resembles "real life?" You go to the cafeteria where someone makes your meals, you go to your classes on racial equality and gender studies, play frisbee in the afternoon on the perfectly manicured grounds, you hit the frat or house party with more alcohol than some small countries, and have a wager with Otter and Boone to see who can coerce the most chicks back to your room by Christmas break.
Because you are on your own and responsible for yourself. It's not exactly like being on your own in the real world, but it's significantly closer than being in high school or living with your parents. It's a step in the direction. And all your examples are part of that too. Freshman year was so insane to see people struggle with such basics like laundry and then try to party but also pass an exam. It's your first true juggle of all these things on your own, no one to bail you out. You go in alone and have to figure it out on your own.
Did you have the college experience?
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True, we are looking at the same coin from either side.
Yes, I have the college experience. I hated it. I wish with every ounce of my being i didn't go. But I put that on me and my mindset (and my expectations of my parents) than on college itself. I learned more about myself in the 3 months after college when I got my own place and went to work full time than I did in the 4 years I was in. But everyone is different of course.
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See, my experience was very very different. I came out of a relatively small town, where most people knew everyone else. That worked both ways; it was relatively safe, in the sense that there wasn't a ton of bullying and crap like that, but then again, you were always going to be who you were in second grade.
So when I went to college at 17 and a virgin, I got to - in a positive way, and in a way that was more authentic - reinvent myself. But with that also came good and bad. Good, in that I could meet a ton of people that not only didn't know who I was, but had no preconceived notions. I had to learn that the in-jokes and slang and vernacular didn't always carry over. Further, not everyone could be trusted, and not everyone had the same values. There wasn't the safety of the high school clique. You had to refine your judgement really fast.
I learned that your reputation was a tradable item. In high school, if you hooked up, everyone knew about it within 48 hours. And some people DIDN'T hook up because everyone would know in 48 hours. In college? Sometimes all you were faced with was your conscience. Could you look yourself in the mirror the next day? Not only did most people not know, but most people didn't care.
I learned that you weren't getting a participation trophy (not that those were all that big where I came from, but still). I learned that the world wasn't filled with people that worried about your self-esteem. I don't mean this in the petty "Mean Girls" sort of way that you see in high school. I mean it in a more benign, indifferent way. The analogy I use is high school is like having a CD with 15 songs. You listen to them, you know them, you live them. Your town is like a box set, with, say, four CDs, and 60 songs. You know them, and you're familiar with them. College is like Spotify or Apple Music. For all practical purposes, unlimited music of all genres and types.
I learned more in the five years in college than in any other five years of my life, with the possible exception of the couple of years around the birth of my daughter. Even if she fails out, I think I'd want my kid to at least have that experience for a year or so.
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So a woman that I work evenings with has a 13 year old and a 16 year old and non-stop throughout the evening they are blowing up her phone with texts.
"I spilt milk, what should I do?"
"I can't find my sweater, what should I do?"
"I'm hungry, bring home food" (At 10pm mind you)
With each text, she immediately stops what she is doing to appease every single request. Their father is home with them by the way. But anyway, I don't have kids, but growing up I was on my own. No cell phones, no texting. Simple things I would have to figure out on my own. Of course, if the house was burning down or some other emergency, I could call the number to my mom's work, but it wasn't a guarantee that she would immediately be able to pick up.
For the people that have kids today, are you dealing with this? Do your kids try and text you for every little thing and if so, how do you handle it? Do you encourage independence or just help them with what they need?
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Encourage independence. I'd ignore that shit - or threaten to block them. Personal texts while someone's at work better be one of two things - a real goddamn emergency, or an FYI message that doesn't require a response(eg, hey, we're almost out of toilet paper, can you pick some up on your way home)
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And pull dad aside and ask "what the fuck are you doing while I'm at work? Put down the PlayStation and educate your kids, you worthless loser."
Or something like that.
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And pull dad aside and ask "what the fuck are you doing while I'm at work? Put down the PlayStation and educate your kids, you worthless loser."
Or something like that.
:rollin
I honestly see this type of thing on-and-off with my clients as well. The best example I can think of is a purchase client I had two years ago who was (and I assume still is) a Safety Inspector for a Coal Mining company in Southwest Virginia; his specific job was to inspect and report on the structural integrity of the roofing systems (probably the most important safety job other than airflow in the mine).
I'm not exaggerating at all with my next comments... he was 30-yrs old and didn't know his SSN, didn't know his Salary/Wages (and couldn't guess), had no idea how much money he had in the bank or any other assets and was unsure of who he banked with even, he had never lived away from home and had one small account within his credit history (no issue there really). His mother was taking care of all of that for him... I had to communicate with his mother for all of the application documentation and information and he obtained a specific POA for her to sign for him at Closing. At that time, he made close to $100,000 per year (just salary not including benefits) and was a safety inspector for a mine; he didn't know his SSN or the amount of money that he made but he had literally hundreds of men's lives in his hands.
Some might pass that off for the culture in this area, but not for a 30-year old safety professional. Mom had always done everything for him and he saw no reason to change that. That's the most extreme example that I've dealt with.
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HOnestly, that doesn't really surprise me (or scare me, for that matter). For every multitasker that's doing their job, driving, texting, sweeping the floor with the broom that's up their ass and posting on DTF, there is a person that is literally a one-trick pony. Can't balance a check book, but can - and this is a real person I know - design a state-of-the-art train locomotive on his desk top, or (as he is often called on to do) trouble shoot problems in existing locos as if he built them himself.
I'll try to find it (the link she sent me didn't work that well) but my wife sent me a link of the "12 things you should be able to do as you turn 13" and it was stunning. Even my own kids - who I try to help be self-sufficient - can't or don't do all of them.
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For the people that have kids today, are you dealing with this? Do your kids try and text you for every little thing and if so, how do you handle it? Do you encourage independence or just help them with what they need?
My middle son texted me from school two weeks ago (they're out now) and it said "Dad, I forgot my lunch. Can you bring it to me by 11:35?" I replied back 'nope' Now, I couldn't logistically do it anyway BUT i still wouldn't have. When they take their lunch we have them make it at night and it's their responsibility to take it to school. He didn't go hungry...he ate a school lunch...but the point is he's almost 12, if he forgets his lunch that's on him and it's not up to me to make it right.
I explain/show/teach my boys how to do quite a few things....if I've went over something with them a handful of times and they come to me and ask me to do it or show them again I simply decline and tell them they're 'big boys' to figure it out. I do think that kids these days are coddled WAY more than the days of old. The interesting thing in our household is my 8 year old (turning 9 this month) has been raised 'tough' in the sense that I treat him like his two older brothers and due to that he is a very independent little kid who does quite a things on his own without asking for help....nor does he need the help. He just takes the initiative and gets whatever it is done be it his chores, changing batteries....whatever. The kid just figures it out.
For the most part I think my wife and I have done a pretty good job of not 'babying' our kids to the point they're helpless but also instruct and 'help' enough to where we're teaching them while doing (whatever) for them.
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I dunno... I think it all kind of depends on the parents and the kids. Certainly we don't want kids who can't do anything for themselves and act like spoiled brats. But my parents didn't make my brother and I do chores at all. Somehow when the time came, we were both able to do our own laundry... :P We did however, have to do well in school. So maybe that's how we learned how to be responsible and we were able to apply it to other things later. I'm not a parent, but if I was I imagine I'd try to follow their example in most cases. We had to do well in school and homework pretty much always came first, but then we were able to play or read or do what we wanted instead of doing household chores. It seemed to work for us, and since you have to do all of that stuff when you're an adult, I guess it was nice not having to as a kid.
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kind of change of topic but I'm posting it because my wife and I didn't really agree on how I handled this.
Last Saturday I was doing a lot of yard work and left the boys inside to do their chores. At one point I went inside to grab a glass of water and opened the back door to enter in to a series of screaming between my two oldest. My oldest son was enraged....screaming at my middle son that he was a liar and to shut up....where then my middle son was just saying....but you didn't do it...
i asked what was going on and my middle son started to tell me that his brother didn't complete his vacuuming chore...that he forgot to do the rooms upstairs.....when, out of nowhere my oldest son just screams 'you're a liar' and near runs over to him....grabs him by the neck and just full on smokes him in the nose.
Now, what you have to understand is my oldest rarely loses his cool like that....in fact, he's one of the sweetest kids you'd ever meet. To the point I worry that he's just too nice...that the world is going to chew him to pieces. And, my middle son is typically the 'aggressor' in the dynamic of my three sons. So...when I saw this happen....my first thought was I was really impressed and happy for my oldest that he 'manned up' and smoked his brother like that :lol
They continued to yell at one another....i stepped in and told them both to knock it off....sent them to their rooms to cool down and i just went back outside and kept doing yard work. Where my wife disagreed later when she found out is that I didn't further discipline them. Being the oldest of three brothers I told her they're freaking brothers and she hadn't seen :censored yet :lol I didn't see the need to ground anyone or revoke gaming privileges or take it any further than it already went.
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I don’t know Gary, you probably shouldn’t cross her. She’s the one with the axes and superior reach.
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Huh; I was struck more by what you sort of painted as the out-of-character behavior than the response itself.
Not being a dick here, but are you SURE this was about vacuuming the upstairs?
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Huh; I was struck more by what you sort of painted as the out-of-character behavior than the response itself.
Not being a dick here, but are you SURE this was about vacuuming the upstairs?
I did walk in in the middle of the argument....middle son was claiming that only the hallways and loft area were vacuumed.....oldest was upset saying he did it all. There very well could have been more to it. But, what you need to understand is that my middle son is pretty persistent in his 'bothering' and pestering of his two brothers. My youngest simply ignores him (which ticks him off even more) and my oldest usually just takes the brunt of it and gets upset. Not mad upset like he was but sad upset.
That's why I was kind of 'happy' to see him take it to him physically as his brother usually is the one who tries to dominate physically. the look on middle sons face when his older bro fought back was priceless to see. I think it did him some good to see that he can only push the kids so far.
Like I said....IMO that's just brother crap. nothing more.
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We had to do well in school and homework pretty much always came first, but then we were able to play or read or do what we wanted instead of doing household chores. It seemed to work for us, and since you have to do all of that stuff when you're an adult, I guess it was nice not having to as a kid.
I think it depends on the personality of the kid. For me, the dual attack of my mom delaying chores into infinity and talking about them as if it is the end of the world that she has chores, and my grandma exalting chores into the source of all happiness in life has really made me try to avoid them as much as possible. I already posted about getting unreasonably pissed over my mom bitching that she has to do something but not wanting to take 15 minutes to teach me how to do it when I was a teen. Looking at my behavior today, I think it made me wanna be clean and have a neat house but only do chores when no one is around so no one can make a big deal out of it or tell me what to do.
Not being a dick here, but are you SURE this was about vacuuming the upstairs?
Not being a dick here: are you an only child? :lol The fights that erupted between my brother, sister and me about every other Sunday when someone didn't vacuum their imaginary third of the room to another's liking were epic as fuck.
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Haha, I have a younger brother. I can't really recall what we fought about, but for us it was a different environment. We never got into the "You're a LIAR!" kind of arguments unless and until it got to be later in life and the issues were heavier. Then again, I grew up in an old-school, Eastern European house, so it wasn't as if we had a lot of chance to explain shit. :)
(I also grew up in a house with zero physical violence; my dad was sick from when I was a young kid, and it was an odd dynamic. I could kick his ass from the age of maybe 12, and yet, I was very much scared of my dad in the sense of his approval and what not. If that makes sense.)
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I can still remember the last time my father attempted to beat me as a kid when I had started getting old and it no longer hurt and I just laughed. That was the last time. I always got spanked as a kid when I was being bad.
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Anybody have kids that had or have Night Terrors?
If so, how did you approach it? Did you do anything, did they grow out of it, did you or your spouse have them?
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When I was 18, it was just an assumed fact by my family that I was going to college. There was a mindset by them that if I didn't, then I would be some sort of failure. (Despite none of them going to college)
I don't have kids at the moment, but as long as they find a way to support themselves, then I am cool with them not going to college. but How do you guys feel about this college situation?
Imagine your child in in their senior year of high school and they come to you and say "I don't think college is for me". Are you cool with that, or would you still encourage college.
If I had a chance to do it again, I might pursue trade school. Pays pretty well from what I've seen.
I have thought a LOT about this over the past year. I actually am not going to encourage my children to go to college because the retur on invenstment is getting smaller and smaller unless you want to become a doctor or lawyer or something similar.
However, I do plan to send all of my children to a trade/technical school close to where I live. I have three reasons for this.
1. The classes are self-paced and they can easily get the school done in a year or two at most.
2. It's a LOT cheaper and if they go while still highschool age then it's free in my state.
3. if they pick the right trade it can pay them enough to support families of their own when it comes to that, or it will give them the financial backing they need if they decide to further their education into something that will pay them more without needing to take out regretable school loans.
I don't have a degree. I attended college until it got too expensive and then dropped out. However, that was probably one of the best decisions I made.
I make a very good living now and other than a few exceptions, I just don't see a need to get formal college training in this day and age. Experience and hard work seems to have become far more valuable.
At least that's the way I see it. And I hope this helps.
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I just went through this three times in the last 18 months or so.
One, upped and joined the Army.
One, went to trade school, and got married.
One, went to college.
Full disclosure, I have three degrees, so one would think I value college. And I do, but as I watch the arcs unfold I think more and more that there is no right answer here. What's more important to me, in hindsight, is that you take the time at that age to get out of your comfort zone, that you test your boundaries, and that you start to find where your potential lies.
It has nothing to do with "trade school", per se, but I think the middle kid got short-changed (and I take some but not all responsibility for that). I think there's benefit and value to being away from home. I think there's benefit and value to see, first hand, the impacts of your choices, with little or no safety net. I think there's benefit and value to finding out that you can do a, b, and c, but there's no "d" at the end of the equation, and vice versa, someone else might get to "d" and not have given fuck one about a, b, or c. My stepson, in the Army (and formerly a licensed mechanic) is everything you'd want in a son. Values, humility, respect, drive... and when I met him he was basically drinking and hooka-ing his life away in his mom's basement. I had little directly to do with getting him out of that, but I was there to help him navigate (he doesn't speak to his dad) and work through choices. The youngest, my daughter, is now in her freshman year, and is starting to realize that there's a LIFE out there to be had, and she's starting to, as I call it, build her book of stories.
I feel bad for the middle kid, my stepdaughter. She went right from high school to beauty school (she did not drop out. ;)), and right from her bedroom in our house, to her house in NC with her husband. I think she needed to touch the hot stove maybe. I think she needed to experience that dorm life, sitting in a hallway at 4:00 am talking about life with people that were strangers in every way two months before. I think she needed to have to navigate interpersonal waters without the paddle of her mom/boyfriend. I think she needed to see life and people and society outside of her safe little world.
None of that is "college" per se, but it is an opportunity that is built in to college.
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So a woman that I work evenings with has a 13 year old and a 16 year old and non-stop throughout the evening they are blowing up her phone with texts.
"I spilt milk, what should I do?"
"I can't find my sweater, what should I do?"
"I'm hungry, bring home food" (At 10pm mind you)
With each text, she immediately stops what she is doing to appease every single request. Their father is home with them by the way. But anyway, I don't have kids, but growing up I was on my own. No cell phones, no texting. Simple things I would have to figure out on my own. Of course, if the house was burning down or some other emergency, I could call the number to my mom's work, but it wasn't a guarantee that she would immediately be able to pick up.
For the people that have kids today, are you dealing with this? Do your kids try and text you for every little thing and if so, how do you handle it? Do you encourage independence or just help them with what they need?
Holy shnikies! I tell my kids to stop bickering and figure it out on their own. But maybe I'm old fashioned just a little. Those kids will never learn about life with that kind of whim bending.
I guess it depends on the parent. I try to parent the way my parents did. I turned out pretty good so I figure they knew what they were doing so my wife and I do the same.
Children need to learn to solve their own problems. Tell her to read "The Cottling Of The American Mind" that will begin helping her in the right direction.
We have enough snowflakes in the rising generation, we don't need any more. :)
Having said all this though, I do know there is a lot of societal preasure on parents to cottle their children. And even stupid laws in place that can prevent parents from letting their kids have experiences and learn from their mistakes. So, to answer your question (finally), yes I do see it a lot and it is not easy being a parent nowadays.
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It has nothing to do with "trade school", per se, but I think the middle kid got short-changed (and I take some but not all responsibility for that). I think there's benefit and value to being away from home. I think there's benefit and value to see, first hand, the impacts of your choices, with little or no safety net. I think there's benefit and value to finding out that you can do a, b, and c, but there's no "d" at the end of the equation, and vice versa, someone else might get to "d" and not have given fuck one about a, b, or c. My stepson, in the Army (and formerly a licensed mechanic) is everything you'd want in a son. Values, humility, respect, drive... and when I met him he was basically drinking and hooka-ing his life away in his mom's basement. I had little directly to do with getting him out of that, but I was there to help him navigate (he doesn't speak to his dad) and work through choices. The youngest, my daughter, is now in her freshman year, and is starting to realize that there's a LIFE out there to be had, and she's starting to, as I call it, build her book of stories.
I completely agree. I went on a mission for my church at age 19 for two years and that helped me to grow up more than anything. There is just no substitute to being away from parents, having your own experiences and learning from your mistakes. And the earlier the better generally.
You are correct that college does offer this. I'm just not sure it is worth the price tag anymore. It used to be though.
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I have thought a LOT about this over the past year. I actually am not going to encourage my children to go to college because the retur on invenstment is getting smaller and smaller unless you want to become a doctor or lawyer or something similar.
However, I do plan to send all of my children to a trade/technical school close to where I live. I have three reasons for this.
1. The classes are self-paced and they can easily get the school done in a year or two at most.
2. It's a LOT cheaper and if they go while still highschool age then it's free in my state.
3. if they pick the right trade it can pay them enough to support families of their own when it comes to that, or it will give them the financial backing they need if they decide to further their education into something that will pay them more without needing to take out regretable school loans.
I don't have a degree. I attended college until it got too expensive and then dropped out. However, that was probably one of the best decisions I made.
I make a very good living now and other than a few exceptions, I just don't see a need to get formal college training in this day and age. Experience and hard work seems to have become far more valuable.
At least that's the way I see it. And I hope this helps.
I could not disagree with more in regards to what I made bold. First off, people with college degrees earn on average $1M more in CASH over the course of their lifetimes over someone without a degree. Then factor in 401K plans and the healthcare provided by most places that require a college degree to work, and the benefit of having that degree goes through the roof. Secondly, your comment on experience and hard work being far more valuable... I can tell you with 100% confidence that that's entirely bullshit. I work for a fortune 50 company and we have 50 year olds still going to school and getting their first or second masters because you can't climb the ranks beyond a certain point without those pieces of paper. Your hard work means precisely dick when a computer algorithm is sorting resumes and cover letters of potential job applicants.
I know it's anecdotal, but in my core group of 7 friends, 3 of us completed college with a decent degree, 1 is certified in HVAC, and the other 3 never did anything beyond high school. We're all between the ages of 30 and 34. The three that went to college all own homes. The HVAC guy still lives at home, but it's because he's paying off his tuition costs ($26k) before he moves out to avoid high interest payments. He makes about $60K a year. The other three are struggling hard. Collectively they don't make $120K a year. They bust their asses and work really hard, but they're limited in what they can do without a specialized skillset or a piece of paper that cost them $50k+ to obtain.
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I have thought a LOT about this over the past year. I actually am not going to encourage my children to go to college because the retur on invenstment is getting smaller and smaller unless you want to become a doctor or lawyer or something similar.
However, I do plan to send all of my children to a trade/technical school close to where I live. I have three reasons for this.
1. The classes are self-paced and they can easily get the school done in a year or two at most.
2. It's a LOT cheaper and if they go while still highschool age then it's free in my state.
3. if they pick the right trade it can pay them enough to support families of their own when it comes to that, or it will give them the financial backing they need if they decide to further their education into something that will pay them more without needing to take out regretable school loans.
I don't have a degree. I attended college until it got too expensive and then dropped out. However, that was probably one of the best decisions I made.
I make a very good living now and other than a few exceptions, I just don't see a need to get formal college training in this day and age. Experience and hard work seems to have become far more valuable.
At least that's the way I see it. And I hope this helps.
I could not disagree with more in regards to what I made bold. First off, people with college degrees earn on average $1M more in CASH over the course of their lifetimes over someone without a degree. Then factor in 401K plans and the healthcare provided by most places that require a college degree to work, and the benefit of having that degree goes through the roof. Secondly, your comment on experience and hard work being far more valuable... I can tell you with 100% confidence that that's entirely bullshit. I work for a fortune 50 company and we have 50 year olds still going to school and getting their first or second masters because you can't climb the ranks beyond a certain point without those pieces of paper. Your hard work means precisely dick when a computer algorithm is sorting resumes and cover letters of potential job applicants.
I know it's anecdotal, but in my core group of 7 friends, 3 of us completed college with a decent degree, 1 is certified in HVAC, and the other 3 never did anything beyond high school. We're all between the ages of 30 and 34. The three that went to college all own homes. The HVAC guy still lives at home, but it's because he's paying off his tuition costs ($26k) before he moves out to avoid high interest payments. He makes about $60K a year. The other three are struggling hard. Collectively they don't make $120K a year. They bust their asses and work really hard, but they're limited in what they can do without a specialized skillset or a piece of paper that cost them $50k+ to obtain.
Well, I'm not going to argue with your experience.
Mine is an exception to that though I believe. I don't have a degree, I work as an IT professional which I obtained entirely from my own hard work and experience, and I had to go through those same resume algorithms, and I do very well and have all those perks you mentioned. I also have a friend who works for Apple and he's in the same boat I am. Experience and hard work in these two instances has proved more valuable than a degree.
That being said, I do have two bothers who got their degrees, one is a doctor and the other is a cpa. I don't do as well as my doctor brother, but I do just as well as my cpa brother.
Considering my life experience, maybe you can see why I said what I said.
But I did concede in my post that I realize this may not always be the case.
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(https://i.imgflip.com/3ja4at.jpg) (https://imgflip.com/i/3ja4at) (https://imgflip.com/memegenerator)
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I think there's benefit and value to finding out that you can do a, b, and c, but there's no "d" at the end of the equation, and vice versa, someone else might get to "d" and not have given fuck one about a, b, or c.
I am sure there is a joke in there somewhere.
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I have thought a LOT about this over the past year. I actually am not going to encourage my children to go to college because the retur on invenstment is getting smaller and smaller unless you want to become a doctor or lawyer or something similar.
However, I do plan to send all of my children to a trade/technical school close to where I live. I have three reasons for this.
1. The classes are self-paced and they can easily get the school done in a year or two at most.
2. It's a LOT cheaper and if they go while still highschool age then it's free in my state.
3. if they pick the right trade it can pay them enough to support families of their own when it comes to that, or it will give them the financial backing they need if they decide to further their education into something that will pay them more without needing to take out regretable school loans.
I don't have a degree. I attended college until it got too expensive and then dropped out. However, that was probably one of the best decisions I made.
I make a very good living now and other than a few exceptions, I just don't see a need to get formal college training in this day and age. Experience and hard work seems to have become far more valuable.
At least that's the way I see it. And I hope this helps.
I could not disagree with more in regards to what I made bold. First off, people with college degrees earn on average $1M more in CASH over the course of their lifetimes over someone without a degree. Then factor in 401K plans and the healthcare provided by most places that require a college degree to work, and the benefit of having that degree goes through the roof. Secondly, your comment on experience and hard work being far more valuable... I can tell you with 100% confidence that that's entirely bullshit. I work for a fortune 50 company and we have 50 year olds still going to school and getting their first or second masters because you can't climb the ranks beyond a certain point without those pieces of paper. Your hard work means precisely dick when a computer algorithm is sorting resumes and cover letters of potential job applicants.
I know it's anecdotal, but in my core group of 7 friends, 3 of us completed college with a decent degree, 1 is certified in HVAC, and the other 3 never did anything beyond high school. We're all between the ages of 30 and 34. The three that went to college all own homes. The HVAC guy still lives at home, but it's because he's paying off his tuition costs ($26k) before he moves out to avoid high interest payments. He makes about $60K a year. The other three are struggling hard. Collectively they don't make $120K a year. They bust their asses and work really hard, but they're limited in what they can do without a specialized skillset or a piece of paper that cost them $50k+ to obtain.
Well, I'm not going to argue with your experience.
Mine is an exception to that though I believe. I don't have a degree, I work as an IT professional which I obtained entirely from my own hard work and experience, and I had to go through those same resume algorithms, and I do very well and have all those perks you mentioned. I also have a friend who works for Apple and he's in the same boat I am. Experience and hard work in these two instances has proved more valuable than a degree.
That being said, I do have two bothers who got their degrees, one is a doctor and the other is a cpa. I don't do as well as my doctor brother, but I do just as well as my cpa brother.
Considering my life experience, maybe you can see why I said what I said.
But I did concede in my post that I realize this may not always be the case.
Can I ask how old you are?
The reason I ask is because I work with a lot of guys in their 50s and early 60s who landed card punching jobs 35 years ago right out of college. Tech companies needed so many bodies, they'd hire anyone with a diploma who know how to turn on a computer. They evolved within the industry as it grew, learning it along the way. Those guys can move around pretty easily with the experience they have, but even those guys have gone out and gotten a lot of certifications, and many have gone back to school and gotten a degree pertaining to business of some kind.
But for young people today who haven't even gone to college yet, they know nothing. I don't mean that in a demeaning way. But the guys I work with who didn't have schooling, learned it as the technology came to be over three decades. Even college graduates today don't "know" much, but they get prepped for that world in way that's not easy to do on your own convincingly. That college degree is a requirement 99.99% of the time for applicants for people that work where I work, regardless of position. I'm not trying to talk me up either or anything like that. My role (business systems analyst) is not where I was expecting to go with my degree, but the stuff I did in college prepared me for this role a ton.
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Northern Lion, you are, in my experience, the exception to the rule (it may be you, it may be your field).
I know from my experience, WAY more often than not, no college degree, you don't even get the first phone call.
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I'm not sure I know enough about diminishing returns, but if you go for a science degree, I'd imagine it's worth your time and investment. Getting an arts degree probably isn't. I do believe people can overcome not having a degree and be successful, but it's getting harder to do that. You've got to get your foot in the door somehow and without a degree, you can't even get close to have a toe in. I do think the people who are hard workers and have the drive can find a way to make it work, but on average, I think you'll want a degree to give yourself the best opportunity.
Anecdotal, but of my 10 friends from high school that all keep in touch regularly, only one didn't go to college and he is easily the least successful (I'd probably say he's the least happy as well, since I value happiness more so than money) and the only one of us who doesn't own a home (besides my one friend who is in his residency as a doctor).
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Just thinking about college brings up too many painful memories, so while I want to chime in on this, those emotions are going to come out and impact whatever I say in such a negative way.
My wife loved college and it helped pave the way for her to be where she is professionally now. I wasted every second on my time (and parents money) and came out at the end wondering if 10 people would show up at my funeral if I died, and never parlayed my degree in to anything more than $35k/yr doing work a dropout with their GED could get. We both want our kids to be happy and successful in life, and I know how hard my wife will push for them to go to college. I just hope the bubble bursts before then.
Sidenote, I read a brilliant reader-submitted comment on some news article I have since forgotten the subject of. It basically said we need to get colleges to be places of study and learning only. Get rid of the dorms, Greek system, anything that turns them in to their own enclosed society. Students should go to classes, then go home. (he said it more profoundly).
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College can be a great investment in your future if you're going to get an education that can yield a reasonable paying career. It's no longer a viable thing for people to pay for to "find yourself" or just party for four years. I plan on encouraging my kids to go to a community college for the first year or two until they really decide what they want to do, then finish up at a bigger school.
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I don't think college is for everyone, but if you took away dorm life and all the things besides the education part, you miss out on a big part on learning about how to survive in this world on your own. Not a fan of removing the "campus experience" I'll call it from college. You already can do that by going to community college if you want, and I do think that's a great route to go especially if one isn't sure on what they want to study but their high school days are ending. I don't think everyone at 18 knows how they want to spend the rest of their life.
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Yeah. I don't want to argue with people about something as subjective as this, and I respect people's experience, but I was ready, willing and able to send my stepdaughter off to college JUST FOR the experience of dorm life, etc. I didn't even care if she finished, I just thought she needed to get out of her town so badly and experience life as it's lived elsewhere.
I think people are often unaware how different life can be in different parts of the country.
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I know for a fact that my oldest son (13) will not go the traditional college route. He has a few issues in learning right now that are pretty tough on him....and schoolwork is hard enough for teenagers, much less one with comprehension issues.
I truly think he will either do a trade school, he's talked of the Fire Department.....or even military service. It's going to be real 'work' for both he and his mother and I to figure out how to prepare him for life. He's a great kid, not 'dumb' by any means but he just has a pretty severe comprehension issue. He has an IEP in school so that his lessons are catered to him and even then it's a struggle.
The other two I'm sure could handle college. The big 'fight' right now in our house concerning college is my wife wants us to pay for it for the kids and I think they should get a loan...try for scholarships etc etc. I love my kids to the ends of space and time but I'm not in any condition financially to pay for their schooling.
They each have savings accounts that $$$ gets put into from us, grandparents and great grandparents.....but, as I said....I'm not outright paying for it. If possible we will assist here and there but in my opinion that's their burden....not mine.
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They each have savings accounts that $$$ gets put into from us, grandparents and great grandparents.....but, as I said....I'm not outright paying for it. If possible we will assist here and there but in my opinion that's their burden....not mine.
That's the boat we're in as well. I'm guessing I'll have $20k or so for each kid set aside by the time they get to college, which will maybe pay for half a semester by then. We'll help out as much as we can, but we're certainly not going to ruin ourselves financially to do so.
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They each have savings accounts that $$$ gets put into from us, grandparents and great grandparents.....but, as I said....I'm not outright paying for it. If possible we will assist here and there but in my opinion that's their burden....not mine.
That's the boat we're in as well. I'm guessing I'll have $20k or so for each kid set aside by the time they get to college, which will maybe pay for half a semester by then. We'll help out as much as we can, but we're certainly not going to ruin ourselves financially to do so.
The bold is my stance when my wife and I speak about it. I'm simply not willing to make that financial sacrifice. I'm sorry....maybe I'm a dickhead but I have ideas and plans as far as how I'd like to spend the last quarter of my life and it doesn't include paying off college for three kids. I love them dearly and will help them plan and determine 'what' to go to school for....look for scholarships... and so on....I'm just not willing to cripple us financially.
We've been pretty fortunate with the amount of $$ that has been put into their accounts thus far between all the family members. They'll have a nice little chunk there but it's certainly not going to be enough to pay for a full (4) year college degree....I don't think. It'll take a nice divot out of whatever the cost is....but it's not a 'full ride'.
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I get the horror stories out there - and believe me, they exist - but having just gone through it, the horror stories don't explain all of it. My kid does not have a free ride, but easily 50% is covered, and if she had made different choices, she could have had free college from either of two institutions (one you all know about, and have either watched their team or their football coach on TV in the last six months).
The problem is it's not an easy process, and it's not a fast process. But while I understand very well that my experience isn't gospel*, my experience is also that "financially crippling" isn't the only outcome from college.
(Sorry Gary, I'm not commenting on YOU or your decision - it's your decision, and as you wrote it I don't fault you for it - I just felt like I should respond to that particular phrase.)
* And my kid is not the only data point.
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They each have savings accounts that $$$ gets put into from us, grandparents and great grandparents.....but, as I said....I'm not outright paying for it. If possible we will assist here and there but in my opinion that's their burden....not mine.
That's the boat we're in as well. I'm guessing I'll have $20k or so for each kid set aside by the time they get to college, which will maybe pay for half a semester by then. We'll help out as much as we can, but we're certainly not going to ruin ourselves financially to do so.
Heck, between two daughters, I will have to pay 100k just for HIGH SCHOOL.
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They each have savings accounts that $$$ gets put into from us, grandparents and great grandparents.....but, as I said....I'm not outright paying for it. If possible we will assist here and there but in my opinion that's their burden....not mine.
That's the boat we're in as well. I'm guessing I'll have $20k or so for each kid set aside by the time they get to college, which will maybe pay for half a semester by then. We'll help out as much as we can, but we're certainly not going to ruin ourselves financially to do so.
The bold is my stance when my wife and I speak about it. I'm simply not willing to make that financial sacrifice. I'm sorry....maybe I'm a dickhead but I have ideas and plans as far as how I'd like to spend the last quarter of my life and it doesn't include paying off college for three kids. I love them dearly and will help them plan and determine 'what' to go to school for....look for scholarships... and so on....I'm just not willing to cripple us financially.
We've been pretty fortunate with the amount of $$ that has been put into their accounts thus far between all the family members. They'll have a nice little chunk there but it's certainly not going to be enough to pay for a full (4) year college degree....I don't think. It'll take a nice divot out of whatever the cost is....but it's not a 'full ride'.
You can take out loans for college, but no one is going to give you a retirement loan. Gotta make sure you're squared away before sacrificing too much for the kids.
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You can take out loans for college, but no one is going to give you a retirement loan. Gotta make sure you're squared away before sacrificing too much for the kids.
Now there's a concept. You pay for your kids all their life....then pay for their college then when you turn 65 you can take out a retirement loan that 'they' are on the hook for :lol
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They each have savings accounts that $$$ gets put into from us, grandparents and great grandparents.....but, as I said....I'm not outright paying for it. If possible we will assist here and there but in my opinion that's their burden....not mine.
That's the boat we're in as well. I'm guessing I'll have $20k or so for each kid set aside by the time they get to college, which will maybe pay for half a semester by then. We'll help out as much as we can, but we're certainly not going to ruin ourselves financially to do so.
Heck, between two daughters, I will have to pay 100k just for HIGH SCHOOL.
This seems like madness to me. $100K per kid?
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Can I ask how old you are?
The reason I ask is because I work with a lot of guys in their 50s and early 60s who landed card punching jobs 35 years ago right out of college. Tech companies needed so many bodies, they'd hire anyone with a diploma who know how to turn on a computer. They evolved within the industry as it grew, learning it along the way. Those guys can move around pretty easily with the experience they have, but even those guys have gone out and gotten a lot of certifications, and many have gone back to school and gotten a degree pertaining to business of some kind.
But for young people today who haven't even gone to college yet, they know nothing. I don't mean that in a demeaning way. But the guys I work with who didn't have schooling, learned it as the technology came to be over three decades. Even college graduates today don't "know" much, but they get prepped for that world in way that's not easy to do on your own convincingly. That college degree is a requirement 99.99% of the time for applicants for people that work where I work, regardless of position. I'm not trying to talk me up either or anything like that. My role (business systems analyst) is not where I was expecting to go with my degree, but the stuff I did in college prepared me for this role a ton.
I don't mind at all. I'm 41.
I got into computers initially about 15 years ago when I thought it would be fun to learn how to build my own. I didn't know the first thing so I did a search online until I found a website that guided me through the basics. The rest is history really. I got better at it the more I did it and now I wouldn't even think about buying a computer off the shelf.
I then learned about networks, all the ins and outs of windows and other microsoft products, then I delved into linux.
After a while, word got around at work that I knew my way around computers and they began asking me for help instead of going directly to IT. It was faster for them to ask me.
Over the next few years I made a name for myself doing that, especially since I didn't allow these extra duties to keep me from my regular work. Then I began dabbiling in coding and databases, so when I decided to apply for an IT position I got snatched up pretty quickly.
I learned it all through reading on the internet and gaining experience.
That's my story in a nutshell.
Also, as a side note, I didn't mean to cause a stir over this. If I had known there were such strong feelings about attending college I would have said things differently.
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I'm gonna jump in regarding something I saw a few posts up...many undergrad science degrees don't pay shit. Chem and bio degrees are good for doing QC lab work, and that's about it, and it doesn't pay well. As of about five years ago, starting salary at a branded pharma company with a chem undergrad was about $48K...on Long Island! Knock about a third off of that working in generic pharma. And scale the cost of living by region. Basically, if you have significant loans, you may very well be still living with your parents. If the undergrad is a springboard to a PhD, that's another matter...but it's tough to make money or be impactful with just a chem/bio undergrad.
Computer stuff and engineering is another matter, of course...
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Sidenote, I read a brilliant reader-submitted comment on some news article I have since forgotten the subject of. It basically said we need to get colleges to be places of study and learning only. Get rid of the dorms, Greek system, anything that turns them in to their own enclosed society. Students should go to classes, then go home. (he said it more profoundly).
That would be great if that could happen. If that was the case I would probably encourage my children to go. In my view, that's how trade/technical colleges largely still are. And maybe that's why I like them more. It's true you can't get advanced degrees there though, so it might be a drawback for some.
One thing I probably should mention, I do have a son who is very interested in robotics and would like to do that someday. He will probably need to got to college for that, but I just don't want him to get into a mountain of debt doing it.
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They each have savings accounts that $$$ gets put into from us, grandparents and great grandparents.....but, as I said....I'm not outright paying for it. If possible we will assist here and there but in my opinion that's their burden....not mine.
That's the boat we're in as well. I'm guessing I'll have $20k or so for each kid set aside by the time they get to college, which will maybe pay for half a semester by then. We'll help out as much as we can, but we're certainly not going to ruin ourselves financially to do so.
Heck, between two daughters, I will have to pay 100k just for HIGH SCHOOL.
This seems like madness to me. $100K per kid?
No, 50k per kid. 12k per year, plus some other fees. 2 kids, 100k total.
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I don't think college is for everyone, but if you took away dorm life and all the things besides the education part, you miss out on a big part on learning about how to survive in this world on your own. Not a fan of removing the "campus experience" I'll call it from college.
My last word on the matter, but there is nothing about living in a dorm staffed with housekeepers, having all your means prepared and cleaned up afterward in the cafeteria, attending lectures on Gender Studies, and hitting up frat parties flooded with alcohol that is "learning about how to survive in this world on your own." I am not trying to imply it is all nefarious and depraved. But that should not be part of a state-funded path to a higher degree.
Getting a job waiting tables, and renting an apartment with some buddies and splitting the rent and bills for 6 months will teach more about living on your own in the real world.
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Yeah.... My college dorm experience (and the general vibe of it all throughout campus) felt like 2000 people in a hotel. Keeping the kitchen sink empty and the bathroom semi-clean were the only real responsibilities.
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Eh, I don't discount that some experiences are like that, but not all. If you grow up in a suburban town like any of 50 around me, it's an experience to encounter someone from... Turkey for example, or from Texas, or California, or Minnesota.
I often used music with my kids; when you're in high school, especially a public one, you know all those kids for years. It's like having 10 CDs, with 10 songs each, and you listen to them over and over. And you don't have other CDs, so maybe you listen to the songs you like MOST, but maybe don't LOVE. Then you go to college, and you have 1000 CDS with 10 songs each, and you can experience other genres, other artists, other songs, and you start to see that maybe you like other things. And you start to listen to songs you really like as opposed to like more than the rest. (Then, of course, you graduate into the real world and it's Spotify/Apple Music, where any song of any genre by any artist is available to you.)
I also learned that people think differently - sometimes radically so - and people have different values - sometimes radically so. You learn to interact and navigate with people that don't have 15 years of history with you. Who take you at face value - or not. You get a great perspective in how you and your ideas are perceived. You learn that maybe you can drive that narrative a bit. Maybe someone else doesn't have that experience, and that's fine, I respect it, but we've all had 15 years, plus minus of primary school, we're all going to work 40, 50 years after, why not have that other experience? My best and closest friends are those I made in college. Ride or die friends.
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You are 100% spot on with that post. Every 18-22 year old should experience that. They should wait tables, work at Burger King, volunteer with a charity, do hundreds of other things where they can experience the same without taking out hundreds of thousands of dollars in student loans to learn about 12th century Greek architecture.
My last word on this topic, v.2 :)
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I'm a little late on the last bit of discussion. @ Northern Lion... no need to apologize, this is good discussion.
I'm with Stads on a couple of his positions. My belief is that University/College is as much about the education, as it is the experience. And nowadays, the skills that EVERY employer is looking for are transferable skills - communication, problem solving, critical thinking, collaboration etc.... Those things are learned outside of the classroom as much as they are in the classroom. Also, I started saving for jingle.kids the moment they were born - $50/mo for each... upped it to $100 then $200 as I could afford. My goal is not to give them a completely free ride, but also not to have THEM come out of their post-secondary years crippled financially.
Trade schools... folks, good trades people can earn a shit-ton. When I moved 20 years ago, the guy that owned the truck and crew was building his own 5000 sq foot custom house. The guy that installed my floor was making 6-figures. Plumbers... shit man (pun intended), they make good coin. Supply/demand... not enough people are going in to trades, so once people have paid their dues (figuratively and literally) - at least here in Canada - there is a VERY good living to be made/had. There is NOTHING wrong with trade schools.
Mrs.jingle and I have always let our kids determine their own path. Jingle.son wants to be an animator; jingle.daughter a teacher. We're both supporting them 100% in their pursuits. Their personal and educational interests were determined by themselves - we pushed them into NOTHING. We encouraged and experimented with a variety of different things (soccer, gymnastics, acting ...) but never forced anything they weren't interested in after trying.
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I don't think college is for everyone, but if you took away dorm life and all the things besides the education part, you miss out on a big part on learning about how to survive in this world on your own. Not a fan of removing the "campus experience" I'll call it from college.
My last word on the matter, but there is nothing about living in a dorm staffed with housekeepers, having all your means prepared and cleaned up afterward in the cafeteria, attending lectures on Gender Studies, and hitting up frat parties flooded with alcohol that is "learning about how to survive in this world on your own." I am not trying to imply it is all nefarious and depraved. But that should not be part of a state-funded path to a higher degree.
Getting a job waiting tables, and renting an apartment with some buddies and splitting the rent and bills for 6 months will teach more about living on your own in the real world.
You are focusing on such a small fraction of college life. You're neglecting meeting people who are different, managing money, managing your time, learning your limits, building lasting relationships, and having a sense of community. Obviously not everyone has the same experience, positive or negative, but there's a lot to be learned when you go to college and are on your own that has nothing to do with the classroom.
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You are 100% spot on with that post. Every 18-22 year old should experience that. They should wait tables, work at Burger King, volunteer with a charity, do hundreds of other things where they can experience the same without taking out hundreds of thousands of dollars in student loans to learn about 12th century Greek architecture.
My last word on this topic, v.2 :)
Respect, bro, but I've never sat at a Burger King with the staff discussing the meaning of life, or having someone confess the abuse they suffered as a kid, or discussing the role of religion in their life up to that point. Or had a group have to make a decision where individual members had radically - sometimes diametrically opposed - moral positions. I never had to face real, tangible, day-to-day anti-Semitism while asking the wait staff for a extra ketchup with my dinner. Or - and don't laugh, it's a real thing - having to shit, shower and shave with the girl who serves meals at the United Way shelter.
You don't have to agree with me - you really don't, it's just my impression - but having done all those things you mentioned before and after college, FOR ME, I'm trying to articulate something different. I learned more during my college education than at any other five-year period in my life (and I've already written about the "hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt).
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Any of you married folks ever done any online videos or studies or anything to strengthen your marriage? My wife and I are trying to reinvigorate our marriage after realizing that we've sort of been taking each other for granted and not giving each other our best efforts over the last handful of years. Life is crazy with three kids, work and all that. We've had a few conversations and the last couple weeks have been great. We've made some big insights into ourselves and our marriage, but we want to keep the momentum going. We'd love to find some sort of online or even DVD based videos we can watch together that will prompt us to discuss things and grow together more. Any ideas?
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Any of you married folks ever done any online videos or studies or anything to strengthen your marriage? My wife and I are trying to reinvigorate our marriage after realizing that we've sort of been taking each other for granted and not giving each other our best efforts over the last handful of years. Life is crazy with three kids, work and all that. We've had a few conversations and the last couple weeks have been great. We've made some big insights into ourselves and our marriage, but we want to keep the momentum going. We'd love to find some sort of online or even DVD based videos we can watch together that will prompt us to discuss things and grow together more. Any ideas?
No.....but I can can say that we’re kind of in the same boat. SO busy right now with the kiddos. Band practice, music lessons, hockey practice and games and so on....then throw in our jobs....more like roommates these days that see each other in crossing.
This is no massive revelation but communication is the key. We’ve noticed that anytime some angst or pissyness has popped up it’s because we haven’t really been talking. In those instances it’s amazing what a little one on one time and conversation can do to right the ship.
We both know that we’re both hyper focused and invested in the kids right now....we’ve taken a back seat to them so to speak. We’ve been working on how to fix this but it’s just tough. Thankfully we have a solid love for each other so we’ve been weathering the storm but as for me.....I know there’s more I could be doing as a husband probably to help stave off some of the little trivial stuff....I just haven’t been good at it lately.
But as for your OP....I hear ya with the desire to find a good resource and if you do please let me know. :lol
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For us, it's priorities. Sure the kids come first, and there are things that we cannot schedule or control.
But there are other things, that if the two of you are being honest, can be reprioritized. We have our ebbs and flows for sure (probably in an ebb right now if being honest) but we still try to have dinner together every night, even if it's holding our plates in front of the TV. For us, shopping is a team sport. I don't mean "mall shit", I mean, groceries and what not. We might only be in the store for 20 minutes, but it's 20 minutes to be together.
Honestly, for me, the best news is that you're aware of it and working on it. I know couples that haven't been together that long and already are "ah, f*** it. It'll work itself out."
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Bill.....good point about the dinner. During the week our dinners are sit down at the kitchen table....no TV/devices. They’re only 20-30 minutes usually but we still make it a point to have family dinner.
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I had lunch recently a few times with an old friend I had not seen in years (we were very close for many years for much of the 00's and early 10's), and she basically said, "Having kids ruins your marriage." She got married in the late 00's, has two kids now, and said all her husband and her do now is fight. Sounds like good times. :lol :lol
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This is no massive revelation but communication is the key.
This is totally true. We've had plenty of discussions over the years, but nothing really improved much afterwards. It's never been a lack of love or good intentions that has been our problems, just a lack of sincere effort. It was my frustration with our sex life (which honestly wasn't terrible, just not what I wanted it to be) that made me realize we needed to have a discussion that was more than "hey... I want more sex". Ironically, it was talking about sex (our wants and desires), and trying to do it a ton, in more exciting ways, over the course of the next 10 days or so, with the last time flaming out miserably, that made me realize that the reason we weren't having more sex was because we just weren't connecting like we use to. And more exciting sex alone wasn't the answer. My fantasy of a dream sex life just wasn't realistic.
Honestly, for me, the best news is that you're aware of it and working on it. I know couples that haven't been together that long and already are "ah, f*** it. It'll work itself out."
Yeah, I've been stuck between a desperate longing for how things were the first couple years and being anxious for the day the kids are grown and gone. We have 14 more years with kids in the house, as long as we've been married already, and it stupidly took me a while to realize that "It'll work itself out" was not a sufficient strategy to truly enjoy the next 14 years together.
"Having kids ruins your marriage."
They can if you let them. Especially when they're young. It definitely takes more intentional effort to stay connected. For us, I often long for what we were like before kids came along. But 11 years later without kids we still wouldn't be what we were then. We still would have changed over time, grown more complacent, and would need to refresh our marriage from time to time. Blaming the kids is really just an excuse for ignoring your own failings as a couple.
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Any of you married folks ever done any online videos or studies or anything to strengthen your marriage? My wife and I are trying to reinvigorate our marriage after realizing that we've sort of been taking each other for granted and not giving each other our best efforts over the last handful of years. Life is crazy with three kids, work and all that. We've had a few conversations and the last couple weeks have been great. We've made some big insights into ourselves and our marriage, but we want to keep the momentum going. We'd love to find some sort of online or even DVD based videos we can watch together that will prompt us to discuss things and grow together more. Any ideas?
I've been married for 17 years, have 7 children and couldn't be happier.
I take my wife out on a date as often as money and time allow.
I never work more than 40 hours a week.
My wife listens to Dr. Laura. :tup
I think the two of you are doing the right thing, it shows the both of you care about your success. I also agree with Stadler about having dinner together and shopping together. Time together is key especially when you have kids.
But, probably the most important piece of advice I could give is to be selfless. If you have your wife's well being at heart and always work to make her happy and laugh and her life generally better and she tries to do the same for you, then very little can interfere to ruin that.
Best of luck to the both of you!
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SO busy right now with the kiddos. Band practice, music lessons, hockey practice and games and so on....then throw in our jobs....more like roommates these days that see each other in crossing.
We both know that we’re both hyper focused and invested in the kids right now....we’ve taken a back seat to them so to speak. We’ve been working on how to fix this but it’s just tough. Thankfully we have a solid love for each other so we’ve been weathering the storm but as for me.....I know there’s more I could be doing as a husband probably to help stave off some of the little trivial stuff....I just haven’t been good at it lately.
Allowing your kids to have experiences and to become well adjusted for life is certainly important. But, just based on what you posted, you sound WAY too busy. And, in my view, your relationship with your wife shouldn't take a back seat.
My advice, have your children involved in fewer things and use that money and time instead to take your wife out on dates. It doesn't have to be extravagant. Play board games together if money is tight, read a book together and talk about it. Take turns choosing movies to rent. Make a dessert together. Take a walk together. Also, try calling each other on your lunch breaks. In general take more together time away from your children.
Your children will see the investment you're making in each other and they will thank you for it. And they will learn more from that than any extra curricular activities.
And this isn't meant to be a criticism of your choices, I'm just trying to be helpful.
P/S my wife helped me write this post :biggrin:
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My wife listens to Dr. Laura. :tup
Mother of God she is still on?
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Who is Dr. Laura?
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My wife listens to Dr. Laura. :tup
Mother of God she is still on?
lol! Believe it or not, yes. She has a podcast and she's on Sirius/XM.
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One thing my wife and I talked about before we had kids was making sure we knew, and our kids knew, that our relationship was our number one priority. Even to the expense of our kids sometimes. God willing, my wife and I will be together for another 40+ years. The kids will move out in 8-14 years (hopefully). While we're certainly not going to neglect our kids and they do get the lion's share of our attention. They need to understand (and we need to remember) that our marriage needs to come before them frequently. We sort of forgot about this and have remembered it again with our conversations these last couple weeks.
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That is a great post. My wife and I have had that discussion, but have never laid out that premise so plainly and clearly with either ourselves or our kids.
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Good advice for sure lordxi. The jingle.marriage suffered at times over the years from prioritizing our role as parents vs our role as husband/wife. We've struggled over the last couple of years to find meaningful time together doing something that we both enjoy - and I wish we'd put more effort in to that earlier in our marriage. We were only together for 2 years before getting married (and only living together for 13 months before marriage), and then less than a year and a half before kids - so we don't really have a lot of time together just as us. Now that the kids are grown (and one is mostly out of the house), and a couple of handful of other variables... we're finding it very challenging to do 'together' things, and simply enjoying one another. I'm not saying we can't stand each other, but we're back into the scenario where our marriage is more of a business relationship / room-mates. We've been there before when the kids were younger, but it's much different now that they are both adults. We no longer have the role of 'parent' (ie, the kids NEED us to take care of them) to fall back on as our common bond. Not sure I'm making sense, but for those of you in that situation with younger kids, and you find that most time is dedicated / for the kids in your role as parent, please - PLEASE - do not neglect your role as spouse. It doesn't get any better or easier as the kids age - if anything, it is harder to get out of the hole that has been dug.
Not sure if any of that makes any sense or not.
Blaming the kids is really just an excuse for ignoring your own failings as a couple.
Bingo.
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Who is Dr. Laura?
She's a medical professional who can do surgery that installs the desire to GOOGLE IT YOUR-FUCKING-SELF!
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We were only together for 2 years before getting married (and only living together for 13 months before marriage), and then less than a year and a half before kids - so we don't really have a lot of time together just as us.
We're a little in that same boat. Together less than a year and a half before getting married and basically didn't live together in any meaningful way before getting married. We got pregnant (a partial oops) after less than two years of marriage. I do regret not having enough just us time before having kids. I have to remind myself that while it was a great and fun time for us in the beginning, it wasn't perfect. There were growing pains of being together all the time and we certainly had our share of frustrations. There are a few things about that time I would love to be able to recreate now. Some are achievable and some probably aren't. Being a man, most of the them revolve around sex. :lol
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We were only together for 2 years before getting married (and only living together for 13 months before marriage), and then less than a year and a half before kids
We met, a year later were engaged, a year later were married and (10) months later had our first son. We did not live together until we were married.
SO busy right now with the kiddos. Band practice, music lessons, hockey practice and games and so on....then throw in our jobs....more like roommates these days that see each other in crossing.
We both know that we’re both hyper focused and invested in the kids right now....we’ve taken a back seat to them so to speak. We’ve been working on how to fix this but it’s just tough. Thankfully we have a solid love for each other so we’ve been weathering the storm but as for me.....I know there’s more I could be doing as a husband probably to help stave off some of the little trivial stuff....I just haven’t been good at it lately.
Allowing your kids to have experiences and to become well adjusted for life is certainly important. But, just based on what you posted, you sound WAY too busy. And, in my view, your relationship with your wife shouldn't take a back seat.
My advice, have your children involved in fewer things and use that money and time instead to take your wife out on dates. It doesn't have to be extravagant. Play board games together if money is tight, read a book together and talk about it. Take turns choosing movies to rent. Make a dessert together. Take a walk together. Also, try calling each other on your lunch breaks. In general take more together time away from your children.
Your children will see the investment you're making in each other and they will thank you for it. And they will learn more from that than any extra curricular activities.
And this isn't meant to be a criticism of your choices, I'm just trying to be helpful.
P/S my wife helped me write this post :biggrin:
Yeah....I can see how that looks extremely busy. It 'feels' busy. But we do like the fact that the kiddos aren't 'lazy'. These things they are doing are things THEY want to do. We/I've never forced them into a sport or activity out of some sense of 'living through my kids' or because they 'have' to. The music, hockey and cross country are things they enjoy doing so I/we give them the opportunity to do them.
As far as my wife and I go....we both know that we've neglected each other at times. We talk about it and identify when it's happening. What we're not really good at is sticking with going out on at least one date once a month or making time for one another. When we do realize it's been a while for this or that and get into spending more time together....it will tail off after a bit. Just...life happening.
I would not say that I'm unhappy in my marriage.....and I 'think' my wife wouldn't either. But, I know we both could be more in to each other at times.
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So I'm taking a leap by opening up about this this, but...I think my wife and I will start trying for a kid this spring. Since I'm 43 and she's 40 (and because I got snipped about ten years ago!), it will be IVF.
For a long time, neither of us wanted to be parents, and I don't think necessarily even trusted ourselves to be parents. Between the two of us, we were on the receiving end of: religious abuse*, financial abuse, physical abuse, emotional abuse, verbal abuse, sexual abuse, emotional incest...basically, everything but substance abuse. Needless to say, our lives as individuals and as a couple have been quite challenging. We have both cut off one parent and are barely in contact with the other, and things with siblings are...a little awkward? But as we've both been healing and building up what was systemically thwarted and stolen from us by our "caregivers", we are both feeling like not only can we do this, but it seems increasingly weird not to.
We'll see how things go, and we are prepared for the possibility that it might not work, are ok with that, and won't take heroic measures. But yeah, we might be taking the leap after all...
*This is why I pretty much stay out of P/R anymore, my enmity for evangelicals/fundamentalists makes it rather easy to boil over in any discussion, so I just stay out
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Best of luck, millahh. While that's not a step I would take at your age, I really admire you and your wife's well thought out decision. I love my children and grandchildren, and can't imagine life without them. Still, if I had it all to do over again, I don't think I would have had children unless I gave it as much consideration as you have. Needless to say, my having children at a young age was pretty elemental.
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Mill, That's great and good luck.
Have you considered (I'm sure you have) what child care will look like? Will the both of you continue to work full time? You mention cutting off parents. Can you count on the others for help? If your kid is sick, who takes the days off?
I have a special needs son who my wife wouldn't let anyone watch when he was younger. Her parents both worked and mine were in Florida. It was absolutely brutal piecing together work and child coverage schedules. Once my kids were of a certain age, we did have them in a very small bit of daycare. But even then, we never used that full time, just to take the edges off.
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So I'm taking a leap by opening up about this this, but...I think my wife and I will start trying for a kid this spring. Since I'm 43 and she's 40 (and because I got snipped about ten years ago!), it will be IVF.
For a long time, neither of us wanted to be parents, and I don't think necessarily even trusted ourselves to be parents. Between the two of us, we were on the receiving end of: religious abuse*, financial abuse, physical abuse, emotional abuse, verbal abuse, sexual abuse, emotional incest...basically, everything but substance abuse. Needless to say, our lives as individuals and as a couple have been quite challenging. We have both cut off one parent and are barely in contact with the other, and things with siblings are...a little awkward? But as we've both been healing and building up what was systemically thwarted and stolen from us by our "caregivers", we are both feeling like not only can we do this, but it seems increasingly weird not to.
We'll see how things go, and we are prepared for the possibility that it might not work, are ok with that, and won't take heroic measures. But yeah, we might be taking the leap after all...
*This is why I pretty much stay out of P/R anymore, my enmity for evangelicals/fundamentalists makes it rather easy to boil over in any discussion, so I just stay out
Good on you man! I'm 41 and my wife is 39 and we just had our last about 6 months ago, so I don't think you're too late to the party :). Being a parent can be extremely rewarding. And considering what you and your wife have been through, I think you made a wise choice to wait.
There will be plenty of tough parts and being a parent is hard work, but you have a TON of happy times to look forward to.
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We were only together for 2 years before getting married (and only living together for 13 months before marriage), and then less than a year and a half before kids
We met, a year later were engaged, a year later were married and (10) months later had our first son. We did not live together until we were married.
Same here. My wife and I didn't live together before we were married and we had our first child 10 months later :biggrin:
We were engaged 2 months after we met and married 3 months after that. We were both very impatient if you know what I mean.
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I could not imagine having a newborn after the age of forty. They'll just be graduating high school as you approach 60. Not for me. I'm 48; jingle.kids are 19. This suits me just fine.
But as others said, good in ya for putting as much thought and consideration into it as you have.
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Chad, you and I discussed this a bit offline. I had a bit of a misguided (to put it mildly) 20s, and didn't meet my wife till we were 30. Any earlier, I never would have given her a second date considering how shallow I was, and I doubt she would have wanted one). Married at 33, had our first daughter at 35, and tried for another but were unsuccessful until we had passed 40. Life happens the way it wants to sometimes.
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Chad, you and I discussed this a bit offline. I had a bit of a misguided (to put it mildly) 20s, and didn't meet my wife till we were 30. Any earlier, I never would have given her a second date considering how shallow I was, and I doubt she would have wanted one). Married at 33, had our first daughter at 35, and tried for another but were unsuccessful until we had passed 40. Life happens the way it wants to sometimes.
Totally! And I don't begrudge or judge anyone for whatever their situations. And I fully believe that part of my perspective is from actually having A) twins, and B) having them in my late 20s. The way that life happened to mrs.jingle and I very much shapes my comments.
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Chad, you and I discussed this a bit offline. I had a bit of a misguided (to put it mildly) 20s, and didn't meet my wife till we were 30. Any earlier, I never would have given her a second date considering how shallow I was, and I doubt she would have wanted one). Married at 33, had our first daughter at 35, and tried for another but were unsuccessful until we had passed 40. Life happens the way it wants to sometimes.
Sometimes? Most of the time, if you ask me. I have no ink, but I think if I did go get a tattoo, it would probably say "Man plans, and God laughs".
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"Man plans, and God laughs".
It's amazing that I still forget this after a lifetime of plans shot to hell. I still plan things (big and small), only to have the plans fall apart in seconds and realize they were never realistic to begin with. And yet I still can get really pissed or disappointed about it. You'd think I'd have figured out by now to stop planning things so much and to stop getting so bummed when things don't work out as planned.
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Here's how having kids changed me. .
I was so worry free in my life. Not careless or anything, but I never worried about anything and nothing really affected me.
Now, all I do is worry. If I knew how much I would, I might have skipped it. The other thing is that I simply cannot stomach any show that has a plotline built around a kidnapping or a child murder. I'll simply turn it off. I used to be able to read stories in the paper about stuff, and now, I can't even look at it.
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Here's how having kids changed me. .
I was so worry free in my life. Not careless or anything, but I never worried about anything and nothing really affected me.
Now, all I do is worry. If I knew how much I would, I might have skipped it. The other thing is that I simply cannot stomach any show that has a plotline built around a kidnapping or a child murder. I'll simply turn it off. I used to be able to read stories in the paper about stuff, and now, I can't even look at it.
I'm with you on the worry, but while I don't have a problem with the scripted TV shows, it's the local news that is hard to watch. When I hear stories like that Natalie Holloway girl from Alabama, it sends me into the kitchen looking for the wine.
I can't speak for anyone else, but kids have a profound way of making you feel helpless.
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I can't speak for anyone else, but kids have a profound way of making you feel helpless.
Damn no kidding. At one of the early ultrasounds for my second kid, they found one of the kidneys was abnormally large. "So, what does that mean?" we asked the tech doing the ultrasound. "You'll have to discuss that with the doctor. Oh and he left for the day."
So.... we spent half the night looking up "enlarged fetal kidney" online, worrying about something we couldn't understand, couldn't prepare for, and couldn't do a damn thing about.
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I can't speak for anyone else, but kids have a profound way of making you feel helpless.
Damn no kidding. At one of the early ultrasounds for my second kid, they found one of the kidneys was abnormally large. "So, what does that mean?" we asked the tech doing the ultrasound. "You'll have to discuss that with the doctor. Oh and he left for the day."
So.... we spent half the night looking up "enlarged fetal kidney" online, worrying about something we couldn't understand, couldn't prepare for, and couldn't do a damn thing about.
Yikes.... is it safe to assume it was either much-ado-about-nothing, or everything got resolved? Based on the recent SS vid, your kids are both 10lbs of adorable in a 5lb bucket.
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Medical searches on the internet are never a good way to keep your anxiety in check.
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Medical searches on the internet are never a good way to keep your anxiety in check.
Truer words were never written.
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One kidney had a bunch of cysts on it. It isn't terribly uncommon, and what usually happens is 1) that kidney eventually shrivels up and goes away, 2) the other kidney compensates, and 3) the person goes on to live a happy, healthy life. So far we are on track for all three. The biggest potential problem they monitor is the good one could grow too big to compensate and the organs get overcrowded.
Medical searches on the internet are never a good way to keep your anxiety in check.
My mom has been a nurse for 40+ years. Trust me, I've gotten this lecture more times than I can count. She spent a lot of time in labor & delivery so had a basic understanding of the issue and was able to assure us this problem was rarely life-threatening. My wife had already had a miscarriage and we had gone through fertility treatments (this pregnancy was not a result of any treatment), so the fear of an unhealthy fetus was heightened.
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I could not imagine having a newborn after the age of forty. They'll just be graduating high school as you approach 60. Not for me. I'm 48; jingle.kids are 19. This suits me just fine.
But as others said, good in ya for putting as much thought and consideration into it as you have.
Chad, you and I discussed this a bit offline. I had a bit of a misguided (to put it mildly) 20s, and didn't meet my wife till we were 30. Any earlier, I never would have given her a second date considering how shallow I was, and I doubt she would have wanted one). Married at 33, had our first daughter at 35, and tried for another but were unsuccessful until we had passed 40. Life happens the way it wants to sometimes.
"Man plans, and God laughs".
When my wife and I got married, we both wanted a big family, but we never intended to have children this late in our lives. We had our first 3 pretty close together, then there was a 4 year break for reasons only God knows because it certainly wasn't due to a lack of trying :). Then we had 2 more close together, and then another 5 year break for some unknown reason. Then we had our last 2 fairly close together.
If we had had it our way we would have been finished with our family 5-7 years ago. But at least they should all be gone before I retire. Hopefully.
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One kidney had a bunch of cysts on it. It isn't terribly uncommon, and what usually happens is 1) that kidney eventually shrivels up and goes away, 2) the other kidney compensates, and 3) the person goes on to live a happy, healthy life. So far we are on track for all three. The biggest potential problem they monitor is the good one could grow too big to compensate and the organs get overcrowded.
Medical searches on the internet are never a good way to keep your anxiety in check.
My mom has been a nurse for 40+ years. Trust me, I've gotten this lecture more times than I can count. She spent a lot of time in labor & delivery so had a basic understanding of the issue and was able to assure us this problem was rarely life-threatening. My wife had already had a miscarriage and we had gone through fertility treatments (this pregnancy was not a result of any treatment), so the fear of an unhealthy fetus was heightened.
Well I really hope your new little one ends up being happy and healthy. That would be very scary to go through, and I'm really glad things so far are going OK.
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Hoping to get your opinions on a marital thing that I'm not sure if I should talk to my wife about.
We have an annual New Years' Eve party at my sister's with my siblings, their spouses, and kids. The kids go to be early and the adults stay up playing games and drinking and eating.
The issue is that my wife always drinks more than I think she should. Last year she ended up hung over, so we couldn't leave my sister's place for a few hours after I would have because she had to recover. I was horribly embarrassed and pissed at her (no one else drank nearly as much as she did). So this year I told her that couldn't happen again and she understood and agreed. She didn't drink enough to be badly hung over, but did drink more than I would have liked. I hadn't glared at her when she grabbed another bottle of wine to open, she likely would have had more and ended up like last year. She has trouble controlling her drinking in social situations and had issues with it before she essentially turned her life around the year before we met and stopped having a social life that revolved around drinking.
The main issue for me is that I find her obnoxious when she's drunk. I don't enjoy being around her at all. There are lots of reasons for this, some of which are my issue and not hers, but it is what it is. This is the only time of the year that she drinks like this, so it's not a frequent issue.
I don't want to go to this party next year if she's going to drink so much. I enjoy the party until she gets annoying and then I pretty much hate the rest and am pissed off at her in the morning. I want to talk to her about why I find her so annoying when she's drunk and ask her to control herself better. I think it would be easy enough for her to just not do or say a few things and make her more tolerable, though I'm not sure in the moment she'll be able to contain herself.
I feel like I have a few options:
1) Say nothing, let her enjoy herself while I'm silently seething, and acknowledge that one night out of the year I'm going to dislike being around my wife. (This option would be more tolerable to me if it were her friends and family that threw the party instead of mine)
2) Talk to her now since it's a recent thing.
3) Talk to her when we get the invite next year.
Thoughts?
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hmmm I'm not sure, but my x was also really annoying when drunk and made me not want to be around her. She was not a fun drunk IMO, in fact, an angry drunk. No matter how many times I told her, she didn't change. In that case, it is what it is and that relationship didn't work out. Part of me says, if it's one night a year, maybe you should just let her do it. While it's your family not hers, that may be what helps her in that situation. I know I have social anxiety a lot of times when I was with my SO's family and sometimes boozing would really help but I'd usually be self aware to not make myself look bad in front of their families. I guess a good question is, does this effect anyone else besides you? Like does your family notice and have something to say about it? When she's acting this way, can you just leave her with your sisters or something for example, like you just step away so the things shes doing that bother you are done to others who maybe aren't so bothered by it? Either way, a talk seems like something you should do but maybe depending on how bad others in the room see this, maybe you can let it slide one night of the year.
My brother's GF gets overly drunk at all our family get togethers. Sometimes to the point of puking, passing out early, or starting fights in front of everyone with my brother. It's noticeable and my family has been bothered by it and it happens multiple times a year. I am mostly in dislike of her in general because of her consistent behavior around my family. If it were more rare, I don't think I'd care so much.
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I doubt anyone else cares much, other than that she has a tendency to monopolize the conversation and talk really loud, but no one has ever said anything to me about her. We all hang out together, so it's not really like I can separate myself from her. What bugs me most is her tendency to tell stories and reminisce about her college years when her social life revolves around binge drinking. None of us were there. None of us can relate. I certainly don't like hearing about the days when she was a completely different person from the woman I married and someone wholly incompatible with my beliefs and her current beliefs.
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Yea, sounds like maybe you should talk about that specifically then.
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Yeah, just debating when and how really. I want to tell her next year I'm taking a shot for every time she mentions the year she spent in Hawaii or other stories about her drinking days. I'd pass out by 10.
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Two questions:
1) Does she gets along well with your family?
2) Is that the only time she spends time with them during the year?
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Yes, she gets along well with them. We spend tons of time with them throughout the year.
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I feel like I have a few options:
1) Say nothing, let her enjoy herself while I'm silently seething, and acknowledge that one night out of the year I'm going to dislike being around my wife. (This option would be more tolerable to me if it were her friends and family that threw the party instead of mine)
2) Talk to her now since it's a recent thing.
3) Talk to her when we get the invite next year.
Thoughts?
I'm just asking - to stimulate conversation, not accuse - but why do none of your options involve YOU changing? She's presumably a big girl. Assuming she's not driving, abusing anyone around her, or otherwise invading someone's fundamental space, why is the onus on her to change, or you to suffer?
I was married to someone very much like that, albeit not limited to the "one night a year", and as a general proposition, her drinking was a problem, but one of several. I spent a couple years trying - in vain - to manage her drinking (time and place, company, etc.) and ultimately had to pretty much realize I could not control her drinking. I could accept it for what it was, or if it became a problem for me (or threat to me or my child) I had to take other options. I'm not suggesting that you shouldn't talk to her about things, but unless there's more to the story, telling college stories doesn't seem to be an unforgivable offense (says the guy who gets together with his college buddies fairly regularly to tell college stories.
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Option one is essentially me sucking it up and dealing with it. Which I am certainly capable of doing. I don't know how to make myself not be annoyed by her in those situations though.
if we were hanging out with her college buddies, I would absolutely expect her to talk about those days. It's just strange to me that she talks about it so much around people who didn't know her then and weren't part of the story.
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I would defer to someone like Adami, but I don't know that it's unheard of to learn to adapt to your circumstances. People learn to manage their anger, to adopt coping mechanisms, every single day.
I'm not suggesting this is all on you, and I'm not trying to give you a hard time, but I know that I tend to be a story-teller. I don't mean "story" as in fiction, but in terms of creating (or trying to create) connections with past events and experiences. I don't know that I need to reserve my stories to only those people that shared them with me. Just the opposite; it's fun to share and then hear about others' similar (or different!) experiences and go from there.
And of course, I acknowledge that I'm not there and can't fairly assess. I'm just responding to what you wrote. Respectfully (I hope).
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I appreciate the insight. I do wish that I could just make it not bother me. In this particular case it's just that she goes on and on and on about it. One or two stories wouldn't be a big deal.
I guess I can appreciate the story telling aspect of socializing. I guess it just bothers me that she's essentially bragging about experiences that she no longer considers a good way to live. She turned her whole life around the year before we met to escape a lifestyle that was leading her nowhere good. So to hear her talk positively about those days make the insecure part of me worry that she wants to go back to that instead of the great life we've built together. Which I know isn't true.
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Well, none of us are in the room to be able to read the room and know how everyone is feeling, but it seems like your family isn't bothered by it (you didn't mention anyone rolling their eyes once the next story begins), so my gut tells me maybe you shouldn't be too bothered by it either, however, I get that you are and if you are, sucking it up isn't always the right way to go. BUT if its just one night a year, I really have a hard time thinking anymore than a conversation about how you feel is the appropriate way to go here. She can listen to your feelings and maybe make the appropriate changes next year, but if it's also important for her to have that one night where she can "live in the past" per se, it may not be a big deal to maybe compromise somewhere that allows her to drink but maybe keep her voice lower and limit the stories. Also, it's the holidays. If everyone is being merry but maybe you aren't feeling it, that's OK, but I wouldn't make it something bigger than what it is. Tell her how you feel, let her know you think those stories don't portray the woman you love and while you're happy she is having fun, it makes you upset that she will go on and on about her past that you didn't like.
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^^^ You'd think this guy was married for a decade or two. :tup :) :) :)
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That was basically what I was leaning toward doing. I don't want to make a huge deal out of it or try to make her feel bad. I acknowledge that this is mostly my issue and not hers. But I also think it's perfectly reasonable to ask her to tone it down a bit so I can enjoy the night as well. Right now I'm leaning towards waiting to talk about it until next year when my frustrations with her aren't so fresh and I'm less likely to get mad about it. I waited a year after last year's annoyance and she understood and agreed to do better this year, which she did to a small extent. Just not as much as I hoped.
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Baby steps, if she made some adjustments already then she's trying. next year maybe another baby step and this is a non issue.
^^^ You'd think this guy was married for a decade or two. :tup :) :) :)
:lol I'm a king of failed relationships at this point. I don't often listen to my own advice and emotions can get the best of me. I find it really difficult to talk about the things that bother me about my SO with my SO, I'm a king of sucking it up and did so for so long in many of my past relationships to the determent of my own emotions and eventually the relationship. But recognizing that is a big part of self improvement that I've been working on. Also reading this thread about "talking to your spouses" from the previous discussion is so spot on and while I can't relate to a long marriage, I feel it makes a lot of sense and something I need to be better at myself if I ever want to get to that point of having a long successful happy marriage.
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Well, I meant it purely as a compliment. If only we were all able to take that objective wisdom and turn it into personal successes. I'm certainly no better than you in that regard.
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I was a suck it up person for the first 13 years of my marriage and it was awful at times not feeling like I could say what I want to say. I'm done with it. I want to ask her for what I want and tell her what I want. In many ways it's been freeing, but I also feel suddenly like I want to talk about everything, which isn't good either. I needed a little outside perspective on this issue because I have a tendency to overthink and blow things way out of proportion in my head.
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Well, I meant it purely as a compliment. If only we were all able to take that objective wisdom and turn it into personal successes. I'm certainly no better than you in that regard.
Oh I know, but I'm not sure if anyone else reading knows I'm not actually married and maybe my own advice isn't worth much. But I am inspired by what I read here from the marital advice even if I don't have that exact experience.
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I don't mean to make light of anything being discussed currently by saying this, but I can't help but give an amused chuckle whenever I see this thread bumped, because the title was meant to be fairly tongue in cheek, and lightheartedly venting about a personal situation that, ultimately, probably wasn't a very big deal. But don't get me wrong--my amusement isn't meant to brush off the things being discussed here.
That said, I actually think it's pretty great that folks have used this thread to post about some pretty significant issues and get some good advice. :tup :tup :tup
And along those lines, I want to go back to this:
One thing my wife and I talked about before we had kids was making sure we knew, and our kids knew, that our relationship was our number one priority. Even to the expense of our kids sometimes. God willing, my wife and I will be together for another 40+ years. The kids will move out in 8-14 years (hopefully). While we're certainly not going to neglect our kids and they do get the lion's share of our attention. They need to understand (and we need to remember) that our marriage needs to come before them frequently. We sort of forgot about this and have remembered it again with our conversations these last couple weeks.
Good advice for sure lordxi. The jingle.marriage suffered at times over the years from prioritizing our role as parents vs our role as husband/wife. We've struggled over the last couple of years to find meaningful time together doing something that we both enjoy - and I wish we'd put more effort in to that earlier in our marriage. We were only together for 2 years before getting married (and only living together for 13 months before marriage), and then less than a year and a half before kids - so we don't really have a lot of time together just as us. Now that the kids are grown (and one is mostly out of the house), and a couple of handful of other variables... we're finding it very challenging to do 'together' things, and simply enjoying one another. I'm not saying we can't stand each other, but we're back into the scenario where our marriage is more of a business relationship / room-mates. We've been there before when the kids were younger, but it's much different now that they are both adults. We no longer have the role of 'parent' (ie, the kids NEED us to take care of them) to fall back on as our common bond. Not sure I'm making sense, but for those of you in that situation with younger kids, and you find that most time is dedicated / for the kids in your role as parent, please - PLEASE - do not neglect your role as spouse. It doesn't get any better or easier as the kids age - if anything, it is harder to get out of the hole that has been dug.
Not sure if any of that makes any sense or not.
Blaming the kids is really just an excuse for ignoring your own failings as a couple.
Bingo.
I just want to say that, although my wife and I made a similar commitment and have voiced similar things about the fact that the marriage relationship takes priority over the parent/child relationship, the practical problem you both have mentioned is something I see happen SO pervasively, even among people who intellectually KNOW better, myself included. You guys both nailed it with your posts, and I appreciate those comments immensely. I just wanted to add that it is such a common thing, and if anyone else finds themselves in a similar boat, just know that it's natural, and during those times when you are able to identify that you have neglected the primary relationship too much in favor of the daily "immediate" needs of parenting, don't shrug it off and keep doing what you are doing. Address it and make corrections. This analogy obviously has its limits, but I like the general point: Maintaining a car isn't a one time thing. You don't put gas in today and forget about maintaining the car ever again, or else you are going to have problems. You don't "maintain" a relationship once either--it's an ongoing, day-by-day, moment-by-moment thing. And also, don't despair and think you are the only one. Again, it's very common.
Anyhow, just wanted to say that.
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It seems like there are 3 issues to Xizor's post. 1) the alcohol consumption, 2) being nostalgic toward alcohol-fueled memories, 3) sharing of memories no one else was a part of.
Working backwards, starting with #3, as it has been an issue with me and my wife before. When we get together with her parents, there is a lot of "Did you hear what happened to so-and-so?" I figured early on they were going to spend a lot of time talking about people I have never met, and eventually detached myself from the conversation. Naturally I got called out on it. I had to explain that since I didn't know anything about who or what they were discussing, I didn't feel I had anything to contribute. But that shouldn't dictate what they should or should not talk about.
In so far as #2 goes, I have a hard time when my wife talks about her youth/college days. I didn't enjoy teenage/20s years so it is hard to hear about how awesome it was for someone else. I have told her that, but acknowledged that is 100% on me, and I don't want my crappy transformative years to keep her from looking back fondly upon hers. Aside from that, anybody who begins a majority of their stories with "This one time, when I was so wasted..." will probably get an eye-roll from me. But still, they can tell whatever stories they want, though they should have some awareness if 1) people seem to care and/or 2) they are doing all the talking.
For #1, I have dealt with my own alcohol issues, but don't want to get in to them here because it doesn't speak to the topic at hand.
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lordxizor,
Been there, Mang. I feel for your situation. My answer, to a very similar issue, was to hand my wife an occasional glass of water between wine glasses. It helped keep the volume to normal levels, and the retelling of the same tales to a minimum.
Mind you, that was my second wife. :lol
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It's almost always annoying to be around people drunker than you are. Drunk people do annoying things. I'm a lightweight, most of my friends can handle a lot of booze, and my husband can't really get drunk at all, so I never drink as much as I like, and it sucks, because I'm an adult and I'd like to blow off steam using alcohol at least a couple of times per year, but I'm too self-conscious to handle being the circus monkey about 2 hours before anyone else has gotten drunk. I feel like you may have a problem with it because it reminds you of her past life, and she has a problem understanding the social cues around being drunker than the rest of the dinner company. What Podaar said is a pretty good suggestion.
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In fairness to her, it was clear form the beginning of the night that she committed to not getting hung over like the year before. She was drinking water and electrolyte drinks regularly throughout the night. I guess next year I need to be more specific that it's not just being hung over, but how she acts when drunk that bothers me as well.
Thanks for the thoughts everyone. For now I think I need to just stop thinking about this and bring it up with her before the next situation like this presents itself.
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For now I think I need to just stop thinking about this and bring it up with her before the next situation like this presents itself.
So it turns out the next situation presented itself today when we were texting about my sister's birthday party in a couple weeks. Should have just kept my damn mouth shut about it. Arg... tonight will be fun. Say a prayer for me! :)
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If you're diving in tonight, the only advise I can give you is to own your feelings and present the issue to her in those terms. Make it clear that you don't expect her to fix it for you, but you are simply sharing your struggle and providing her the opportunity to be part of the solution.
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I actually ended up running home for lunch and we had a chance to chat for a minute. Things seem fine. She was annoyed with me, but understood my point of view. No idea if it will make any difference in the future, but we'll see.
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If you're diving in tonight, the only advise I can give you is to own your feelings and present the issue to her in those terms. Make it clear that you don't expect her to fix it for you, but you are simply sharing your struggle and providing her the opportunity to be part of the solution.
This is brilliant advice, in a multitude of scenarios. If all goes well with this approach, the other side will empathize accordingly, and you end up letting them have your way. :biggrin:
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That was basically what I was leaning toward doing. I don't want to make a huge deal out of it or try to make her feel bad. I acknowledge that this is mostly my issue and not hers. But I also think it's perfectly reasonable to ask her to tone it down a bit so I can enjoy the night as well. Right now I'm leaning towards waiting to talk about it until next year when my frustrations with her aren't so fresh and I'm less likely to get mad about it. I waited a year after last year's annoyance and she understood and agreed to do better this year, which she did to a small extent. Just not as much as I hoped.
Lordixor..
Just reading the posts and I would say this...
How you feel about your wife's social drinking habits are NOT your issue. They are hers. If she turns into a complete asshat, you have every right to make a stink.
You say you've been married 13 years? That likely makes you in your 30's. At some point you (not YOU personally) grow the fuck up, stop getting trashed and going on and on about the good old college days.
I was a suck it up person for the first 13 years of my marriage and it was awful at times not feeling like I could say what I want to say. (http://I'm done with it.) I want to ask her for what I want and tell her what I want. In many ways it's been freeing, but I also feel suddenly like I want to talk about everything, which isn't good either. I needed a little outside perspective on this issue because I have a tendency to overthink and blow things way out of proportion in my head.
Yup, understood. You need to pick the important battles, and from the sounds of it, this is one.
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TAC has a huge and important point. Men nowadays aren't typically socialized to care about whether their wife drinks too much - the view that getting tipsy "isn't appropriate" for a woman is thankfully a thing of the past and we can all enjoy our two (three) glasses of wine in peace. So you get the feeling that this isn't something you should care about and that you're antiquated and oppressive if you're thinking about this as a problem. But you 100% have the right to care.
If one of my friends told me her husband gets drunk, tells 20 college tales and needs time to recover before he leaves, and only sees that last part as a problem, I would tell her to try and solve the problem diplomatically (by helping him not get drunk in the first place), and if that doesn't work, to have a big discussion about maturity. And when you gender flip it, it's clear it's still a problem. It's nothing to get divorced over, and going on the offense about it increases likelihood that she will get defensive, and then it's a bigger problem than you intended it to be. But you're well within your rights to expect her to modify her behavior just a bit.
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TAC and MoraWintersoul, I have to respectfully disagree.
In my experience, it is never a good idea to have expectations for other people; especially in regards to the effect of their behavior on you personally; especially when the other person is someone you love and exchanged vows with. Both of you have commented on maturity, are you seriously suggesting the lordxizor should tell his wife to "grow up". Um, I'm sorry, but that's probably the opposite of the intent of this thread. :lol
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I'm certainly not going to tell her to grow up. I explained yesterday why the heavy drinking and her carrying on about her college days are so at odds with her character that it bothers me. She understood where I was coming from, but also defensively said "I'm an adult and can do what I want". Which is of course true. We'll see if it makes any difference. It's such a rare occurrence that I'm not going to sweat it too much.
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Both of you have commented on maturity, are you seriously suggesting the lordxizor should tell his wife to "grow up".
TAC said "grow up", I said "have a discussion about maturity". I did mention going on the offense makes the other person more defensive, and "this thing you do sometimes makes me look at you and see a child" is pretty much the nuclear option in arguments. I hate it when it's pulled on me. Still, if I listened to a friend complain about this, that's the word I'd use: "oh my god, why is he/she behaving so immaturely?", and that's what I did in the thread as well.
However, xizor has clearly stopped his bit of the discussion, so we should probably drop it as well.
Maybe this is a good next topic: "In my experience, it is never a good idea to have expectations for other people; especially in regards to the effect of their behavior on you personally; especially when the other person is someone you love and exchanged vows with." I don't know if I agree or disagree with this. Marriage is a complicated relationship; you are as close to them as you are to your family members, so plenty of chances for them to annoy you; at the same time, those specific annoyances will have an effect on parts of the relationship you don't have with your other family. If I think there's a handful of situations where my brother behaves annoyingly, that won't affect the love I have for him because I can just tell him he's being an ass and then change the subject; if my husband does the same, it snowballs into "damn, my husband annoys me and I have to deal with this for the rest of my life". It affects attraction, the romantic and sexual part of love. On the other hand, it gets really easy to veer into micromanaging your spouse if you have a type of relationship where you agree you will change for each other so you can get along better and avoid those tiny annoyances.
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TAC and MoraWintersoul, I have to respectfully disagree.
In my experience, it is never a good idea to have expectations for other people; especially in regards to the effect of their behavior on you personally; especially when the other person is someone you love and exchanged vows with. Both of you have commented on maturity, are you seriously suggesting the lordxizor should tell his wife to "grow up". Um, I'm sorry, but that's probably the opposite of the intent of this thread. :lol
Just to follow up.
...I need a keyboard.
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Great post MWS! I'll have more time for detailed discussion tomorrow.
...I need a keyboard.
I'll await your eloquent response with all due eagerness, Tim! This should be the pinnacle of maturity... :lol
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Great post MWS! I'll have more time for detailed discussion tomorrow.
...I need a keyboard.
I'll await your eloquent response with all due eagerness, Tim! This should be the pinnacle of maturity... :lol
Ok, let me start with this first...
She understood where I was coming from, but also defensively said "I'm an adult and can do what I want".
Did she follow that up with "Na nana nana-na"?
I am certainly not going to tell Lordixor's wife to grow up, as I don't have all of the facts and a view into the Ixor's lives.
But simply reading what has been presented, it does come across to me as a maturity, or an alcohol, issue.
I know if I acted as Ixor has dexcribed his wife, my wife would certainly tell me to grow the hell up.
TAC and MoraWintersoul, I have to respectfully disagree.
In my experience, it is never a good idea to have expectations for other people; especially in regards to the effect of their behavior on you personally; especially when the other person is someone you love and exchanged vows with. Both of you have commented on maturity, are you seriously suggesting the lordxizor should tell his wife to "grow up". Um, I'm sorry, but that's probably the opposite of the intent of this thread. :lol
That doesn't make sense. I most certainly have expectations for my wife. Like, I expect her to not bang every dude she sees. I expect her to not steal my 401k. I expect her to not poison me when she makes dinner. And as husband and wife, we expect each other to act in an acceptable and respectful manner.
Expectations of acceptable behavior should not be confused with being controlling.
If my wife gets trashed, it is my problem. That is until I decide that I will not accept it anymore. Then it becomes her problem to confront. Plenty of marriages have failed because of alcoholism, or social overdrinking.
If a husband is going to let it fly for now, then it obviously doesn't bother him enough. And that's ok. If a marriage can tolerate that, great, but one spouse getting trashed acting like a sorority co-ed, at some point, may ultimately find themselves incompatible with their husband.
If this is a small chink in the wife's armor, then one can try and tolerate it as best as they can.
And again, I'm trying not to comment on Lordixor personally, as I most certainly don't walk in his shoes and understand his whole family dynamic, but using his example to speak in generalities.
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Again, in my particular case, if this was happening every weekend or even every month, it would be a huge issue for me. I'm willing to forgive once a year even though I find it super annoying.
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Again, in my particular case, if this was happening every weekend or even every month, it would be a huge issue for me. I'm willing to forgive once a year even though I find it super annoying.
Totally cool.
I just wanted to follow up with Podaar's comment.
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Great post MWS! I'll have more time for detailed discussion tomorrow.
...I need a keyboard.
I'll await your eloquent response with all due eagerness, Tim! This should be the pinnacle of maturity... :lol
Ok, let me start with this first...
She understood where I was coming from, but also defensively said "I'm an adult and can do what I want".
Did she follow that up with "Na nana nana-na"?
I am certainly not going to tell Lordixor's wife to grow up, as I don't have all of the facts and a view into the Ixor's lives.
But simply reading what has been presented, it does come across to me as a maturity, or an alcohol, issue.
I know if I acted as Ixor has dexcribed his wife, my wife would certainly tell me to grow the hell up.
TAC and MoraWintersoul, I have to respectfully disagree.
In my experience, it is never a good idea to have expectations for other people; especially in regards to the effect of their behavior on you personally; especially when the other person is someone you love and exchanged vows with. Both of you have commented on maturity, are you seriously suggesting the lordxizor should tell his wife to "grow up". Um, I'm sorry, but that's probably the opposite of the intent of this thread. :lol
That doesn't make sense. I most certainly have expectations for my wife. Like, I expect her to not bang every dude she sees. I expect her to not steal my 401k. I expect her to not poison me when she makes dinner. And as husband and wife, we expect each other to act in an acceptable and respectful manner.
Expectations of acceptable behavior should not be confused with being controlling.
If my wife gets trashed, it is my problem. That is until I decide that I will not accept it anymore. Then it becomes her problem to confront. Plenty of marriages have failed because of alcoholism, or social overdrinking.
If a husband is going to let it fly for now, then it obviously doesn't bother him enough. And that's ok. If a marriage can tolerate that, great, but one spouse getting trashed acting like a sorority co-ed, at some point, may ultimately find themselves incompatible with their husband.
If this is a small chink in the wife's armor, then one can try and tolerate it as best as they can.
And again, I'm trying not to comment on Lordixor personally, as I most certainly don't walk in his shoes and understand his whole family dynamic, but using his example to speak in generalities.
Hyperbole aside, that's what we were talking about, Tim. If you read his original post carefully, you will see that not only was his situation not even closely related to a chronic situation. It was a mild and occasional thing. Your advise was pretty harsh.
If your spouses behavior isn't destructive, why have the expectation that they must behave a certain way or they won't be mature? Let me put it to you this way, what would your advice be to a woman who's husband is constantly on the internet sharing pictures and stories of his teenaged years. Someone who, no matter the subject, will pop off with a personal photo, and a sad anecdote reliving his glory years?
What I'm talking about is approaching minor friction in ones marriage with an eye toward being as responsible as one can for ones own feelings. I may be wrong, but that's my thought.
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What I'm talking about is approaching minor friction in ones marriage with an eye toward being as responsible as one can for ones own feelings.
This is exactly why I have mentioned multiple times that this is largely my issue, not hers. Yes, her behavior is annoying, but no one else seems as bothered by it as me, which means I need to learn to deal with it. Hopefully she'll be more self aware and tone it down in the future, but ultimately she's not doing anything terrible. Just out of character in a way that bothers me (for lots of reasons not worth getting into here). And that's mostly on me.
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:tup
I saw that, and realized that's what you were saying. I apologize, for my role in derailing the conversation away from your original question, lordxizor.
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Wasn't sure where to put this. Not looking for "advice," per se, but....
I have two kids. 17yo son, who is a senior in HS. Starting with his sophomore year, he started HATING classroom learning, and his grades suffered. After his junior year, we decided to home school him. We discovered that he could actually finish up his senior year with 4 1/2 semester classes, one of which is a combo drivers ed/drivers training thing. The other is a 15yo daughter, who is a sophomore. She's very motivated and an over-achiever -- especially when it comes to music, which is what she wants to make her career.
I come home from work yesterday. My wife is out doing something. My son comes out of his room, and I say, "so...any news?" He then confirms that he completed his final exams in his last two classes and is now DONE with high school (save for some paperwork). He and my wife are meeting with his home study adviser today, and he should be an official high school graduate shortly (and four months earlier than his classmates at his former school, by the way). Holy shit! He did it! I have to admit I wasn't sure he was going to do it, but he did. YEA!!!
Then my wife gets home. We talk about my son, and then she asks if the daughter told me about her friend. i said no. Turns out one of my daughter's friends told my daughter yesterday that she had been diagnosed with something (cystic fibrosis maybe?) and that it would be a miracle if she made it through her senior year.
Gut punch.
I don't know this particular friend. I only know her from her profile on the school newspaper's web site (she and my daughter were both on staff and in the journalism class as freshmen).
So now my kid, who has everything else going for her, is really sad. And I think about this poor kid AND HER PARENTS and how absolutely awful it must be for them. I can't even imagine.
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Wasn't sure where to put this. Not looking for "advice," per se, but....
Well, this thread wasn't designed to be about "advice" either, but was just kind of a tongue-in-cheek rant. But people apparently misunderstood, so... :dunno:
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Question/comment for parents here... how do your kids' friends (or children in general) address you? How do you refer to adults when talking to your kids?
When I was a kid, any adult was Mr./Mrs. <last name>. Now it seems like kids refer to adults by either their first name, or Mr/Mrs <First Name>. If I am not explaining this well, for example our adult friends will tell their kids "Go ask Mr. Chris if he can get you a snack." It has started irking me. I want to be addressed as Mr. <my last name> and I want my kids to address and refer to adults in the same manner.
Am I out of line? Not hip with the times?
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Usually, whatever they were comfortable with. It ran the gambit from formal to familiar. I never really thought it mattered...to be honest.
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When I was a kid, any adult was Mr./Mrs. <last name>. Now it seems like kids refer to adults by either their first name, or Mr/Mrs <First Name>. If I am not explaining this well, for example our adult friends will tell their kids "Go ask Mr. Chris if he can get you a snack." It has started irking me. I want to be addressed as Mr. <my last name> and I want my kids to address and refer to adults in the same manner.
I'm with you, Mr. Chris!
Seriously, I agree.
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I'm curious, TAC and CC. Why do you care? Seriously.
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I'm curious, TAC and CC. Why do you care? Seriously.
I don't necessarily care how I am addressed, though I would feel it kind of inappropriate if my son's friend called me Tim. I was just brought up that as a kid, you refer to an adult as Mr. _______.
I just think it's always better to be respectful. And while I realize this has been said by every generation ever, we seem to be in a "fuck everything" society.
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I'm a "you have to know the rules to break them" kind of guy, so I'm with TAC and CC here all the way. Most of my daughter's friends refer to me as "Mr. F*******" (my last name). My daughter refers to most of her friends parents as "Mr./Mrs. So-and-so". There are select exceptions, though. But for me, and maybe this has to do with having a daughter, I see no need to be overly familiar. I'm not looking to be their best friend. (Side bar, but I have a personal, unspoken rule that I make it a point to not even be alone with any of my daughter's friends unless it's an absolute emergency; I just don't want to be in that position).
With my two oldest step-kids - one's 26, one's 21 - it's a little different. The oldest, while I'm still not looking to be his (or his friends) drinking buddy, I'm more apt to use my first name. We're getting there with my second-oldest (though it's my step-daughter, and I have a similar, personal unspoken rule there too.)
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"Mr. F*******" (my last name)
Mr. Foxnews? ;D
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With my two oldest step-kids - one's 26, one's 21 - it's a little different. The oldest, while I'm still not looking to be his (or his friends) drinking buddy, I'm more apt to use my first name. We're getting there with my second-oldest (though it's my step-daughter, and I have a similar, personal unspoken rule there too.)
My Stepson turns 30 next month. I met his mother when he was 5 and we got married when he was 7. He has always called me Tim.
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I rarely addressed my friends parents by their names, but when I did it was usually by their first name. My kids friends usually call me "Max's dad".
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I was always a Mr/Mrs [LastName] person with my friends' parents growing up (unless they specifically told me to drop the formality) and I'd raise my kids to do the same if I ever have any. I did start calling my parents by their first names a bit young though (~14 or 15) just because I worked alongside both of them at my dad's restaurant.
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With my two oldest step-kids - one's 26, one's 21 - it's a little different. The oldest, while I'm still not looking to be his (or his friends) drinking buddy, I'm more apt to use my first name. We're getting there with my second-oldest (though it's my step-daughter, and I have a similar, personal unspoken rule there too.)
My Stepson turns 30 next month. I met his mother when he was 5 and we got married when he was 7. He has always called me Tim.
Oh, no, I wasn't clear: all my step kids call me "Bill". I was talking about their friends.
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Oh, gotcha! I don't think his friends ever actually addressed me. I was always introduced as Tim though.
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I'm pretty old fashioned, so Mr. for me Mrs. for my wife. And Dad/Mom for my kids. I won't accept anything else. Although at church most call me brother (last name) which I also think is fine.
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I'm pretty old fashioned, so Mr. for me Mrs. for my wife. And Dad/Mom for my kids. I won't accept anything else. Although at church most call me brother (last name) which I also think is fine.
That does it. Brother Lion it is from now on.
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Question/comment for parents here... how do your kids' friends (or children in general) address you? How do you refer to adults when talking to your kids?
When I was a kid, any adult was Mr./Mrs. <last name>. Now it seems like kids refer to adults by either their first name, or Mr/Mrs <First Name>. If I am not explaining this well, for example our adult friends will tell their kids "Go ask Mr. Chris if he can get you a snack." It has started irking me. I want to be addressed as Mr. <my last name> and I want my kids to address and refer to adults in the same manner.
Am I out of line? Not hip with the times?
Kids' friends: It depends. My son's best friend always refers to my wife and me as Mr./Mrs. [last name]. On the other hand, my daughter's best friend refers to my wife by her first name, and I'm "Blue T-Shirt" (because, apparently, the first [large number] of times she met me, I was wearing a blue t-shirt. It's a bit weird, but she's like family, so neither of us mind (my daughter refers to her friend's mother and stepfather by their first names, and the friend refers to her stepfather by his first name). Pretty much every other kid I've met over the years goes with "Mr. [last name]."
I find the Mr. Chris/Miss Brooke thing to be very odd, although that seemed to be reserved mostly for teenagers or young adults who sat for my kids back when they couldn't be left home alone.
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I do the "Miss [First name]" thing a lot; I picked that up in the south, when I lived in Atlanta and Charlotte.
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As has been pointed out, it's a way of communicating respect, so that is how we have always taught our kids. And many (but not all) of the people we are regularly around do the same. As for whether it is "Mr. [first name]" or "Mr. [last name]," it just depends. Either way is perfectly respectful as far as I'm concerned. The former is a bit more familiar, but still showing an effort to show that respect.
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Good point Mr. Bosk.
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I won't insist on "Mr. 1."
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I'm pretty old fashioned, so Mr. for me Mrs. for my wife. And Dad/Mom for my kids. I won't accept anything else. Although at church most call me brother (last name) which I also think is fine.
That does it. Brother Lion it is from now on.
:rollin
It feels weird to be called that on a forum, but I'm cool with that.
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I'm curious, TAC and CC. Why do you care? Seriously.
I don't know why I care, which is why I wanted the feedback, which I highly appreciate from everyone who posted their thoughts. I am glad Bosk brought up respect because that is the bottom line, and I never feel like I am treated otherwise when I am called Mr. Chris. I was mostly curious if this was a cultural shift that happened sometime between my childhood and now, as I never called any adult anything other than Mr. <Last Name>
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Marriage can be fucking hard some times guys. I don't feel like I signed up for this shit. I hate that I'm so damn selfish, but damn it... I just want to undo the last few months. Don't wanna share any details, but if you're the praying type, I'd appreciate you sending some my way.
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Sorry, man. Prayers absolutely directed on your behalf.
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Prayers sent!
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Thanks guys. This is a time when I need to be supportive of my wife and put aside my own needs. But it's hard because I feel like I've been doing that all along and was finally having my needs met which then dredged up past trauma for her. My wife is the one who really needs the prayers and healing, but I'm just frustrated and angry that things will never be what I want them to be and what I thought they would be when I got married. For better or worse is what I signed up for I guess. It just sucks that things were so much better and are now suddenly worse again.
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Sorry man, I'm rooting for you and your wife to pull through whatever you are going through.
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Me too. Prayers!
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Has anybody had to deal with their child having Night Terrors, or had them yourself when you were a kid?
This stuff is really scary. Basically the person is having a waking nightmare, so they are in their room screaming bloody murder living out the nightmare while half awake. Had one for the first time in a long time last night and its still got me freaked out.
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Has anybody had to deal with their child having Night Terrors, or had them yourself when you were a kid?
This stuff is really scary. Basically the person is having a waking nightmare, so they are in their room screaming bloody murder living out the nightmare while half awake. Had one for the first time in a long time last night and its still got me freaked out.
jingle.son had sleeping issues, and some mild night terrors - nothing that was absolutely horrifying though (for him or us). I'd have to check with mrs.jingle, but my recollection was that it didn't last too long. We had a baby gate at the top of the stairs for a very long time to make sure he didn't get too far. Then one time we found him downstairs, as he was old enough to know how to open the baby-gate. Went out and got a hardcore latch for our front door the very next day.
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Our oldest daughter also had some sleeping issues when was age 6-8, problems falling asleep, bad dreams and sometimes sleepwalking (that's when we locked the front door), but I wouldn't really call them night terrors.
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Marriage can be fucking hard some times guys. I don't feel like I signed up for this shit. I hate that I'm so damn selfish, but damn it... I just want to undo the last few months. Don't wanna share any details, but if you're the praying type, I'd appreciate you sending some my way.
In about 6 weeks I will be married exactly 20 years and you are right, it can be very challenging sometimes. I couldn't help but notice your comment about being selfish. Let me tell you based on my own experience, successful marriages are all about the exact opposite of being selfish. There's nothing wrong with taking care of yourself and having the things in your life that make you happiest, that's not selfish, that's living. In a healthy marriage both parties should put a very high degree of care and concern into the happiness and security of their partner. The best marriages are collaborative and have constant open communication. It's not easy and really it's more about having that as an aspiration than ever actually achieving some perceived state of marital bliss.
Anyway, I just mainly wanted to let you know that I understand how challenging it can be, but selfishness is relationship poison.
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Marriage can be fucking hard some times guys. I don't feel like I signed up for this shit. I hate that I'm so damn selfish, but damn it... I just want to undo the last few months. Don't wanna share any details, but if you're the praying type, I'd appreciate you sending some my way.
In about 6 weeks I will be married exactly 20 years and you are right, it can be very challenging sometimes. I couldn't help but notice your comment about being selfish. Let me tell you based on my own experience, successful marriages are all about the exact opposite of being selfish. There's nothing wrong with taking care of yourself and having the things in your life that make you happiest, that's not selfish, that's living. In a healthy marriage both parties should put a very high degree of care and concern into the happiness and security of their partner. The best marriages are collaborative and have constant open communication. It's not easy and really it's more about having that as an aspiration than ever actually achieving some perceived state of marital bliss.
Anyway, I just mainly wanted to let you know that I understand how challenging it can be, but selfishness is relationship poison.
Thanks. January/February were rough for us. Especially me. I was being far too selfless for many years and not speaking up for myself. When I finally did it lead to a lot of conflict and my wife really digging in her heels, for some good reasons and some not. We've made it through for now, but sometimes I fear we only kicked the bucket down the road a bit and we'll be revisiting the same issues later since she got pregnant in February and we now have a newborn at home. There is a fine balance between "I have needs that must be met" and "There are things you could do that would make me feel loved and appreciated" and selfishness and I'm trying to tread that line. Its difficult when it seems like you're asking so little and the other person sees it as asking too much. It's especially difficult when there's a lot of anxiety and past trauma involved, particularly when you weren't aware of that trauma until 14 years into your marriage.
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One problem I had with all that was just that the dynamic was set. Sometimes it's not the absolute position that is bad, it's the change from one position to another.
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My wife is going through "The Change" right now and is being very aggressive. She finally realized it when I started to talk to her like she talks to me. She wouldn't admit it but she's calmed down on how she asks/talks to me. I'll take my victory in silence.
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My wife is going through "The Change" right now and is being very aggressive. She finally realized it when I started to talk to her like she talks to me. She wouldn't admit it but she's calmed down on how she asks/talks to me. I'll take my victory in silence.
Plus she tried to kill the cat!
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My wife is going through "The Change" right now and is being very aggressive. She finally realized it when I started to talk to her like she talks to me. She wouldn't admit it but she's calmed down on how she asks/talks to me. I'll take my victory in silence.
Plus she tried to kill the cat!
That she cried about. Me, I better count my meds. :lol
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My wife is going through "The Change" right now and is being very aggressive. She finally realized it when I started to talk to her like she talks to me. She wouldn't admit it but she's calmed down on how she asks/talks to me. I'll take my victory in silence.
Plus she tried to kill the cat!
That she cried about. Me, I better count my meds. :lol
And don't let her count them for you!!
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My marital advice??? Don't do it!
That is all........... ;D
I'm joking. ;)
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My wife is going through "The Change" right now and is being very aggressive. She finally realized it when I started to talk to her like she talks to me. She wouldn't admit it but she's calmed down on how she asks/talks to me. I'll take my victory in silence.
Plus she tried to kill the cat!
That she cried about. Me, I better count my meds. :lol
And don't let her count them for you!!
Oh I don't LOL
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For lack of a better place to ask for advice, I'm going to continue to use this thread for marriage advice even though Bosk will likely point out that it wasn't the original intention of this thread. :) I honestly don't know where else to turn, so I appreciate your advice.
How do you guys handle sexual rejection from your wife? I'm so tired of feeling like I give her everything she wants, say yes to everything that's important to her, and bust my ass making sure she feels loved and appreciated. Sex is the single most important thing she can do to make me feel loved and appreciated. I've explained how important this is to me, and how shitty being rejected feels. How worthless and unimportant she can make me feel at times when she rejects me and refuses to put in even a tiny bit of effort to please me. I feel like what I want is incredibly reasonable. Basically I just want more frequent sex and for her to do a couple sexy things she did in the beginning that I loved. I've explained how it feels like she thinks I'm not worth the effort anymore.
We talk and she seems understanding and apologetic, but then nothing really changes. We talked about it again yesterday after it not being brought up in nearly a year while I worked on myself to try and not take things so personally and to not let my negative emotions control me so much. But even through all that self improvement, I just couldn't let go of how simple it would be for her to do the things I want. I mean, I'm not asking for much. It would take extremely minimal effort. And I'm not asking for anything that she didn't willingly do in the beginning.
I'm just so frustrated by all this. I'm tired of feeling like I give everything I have for her and get so little effort in return. I ask for so little, and even when I do ask it's far less than I really want. Sometimes I just want to ask her "Are you really willing to let me walk away from everything that we've built just so you don't have to wear some sexy underwear every now and then?" She doesn't know that I've thought about leaving her over this, and I don't want to threaten her. I want her to do these things because she genuinely wants to please me. I don't want to leave. I love her every bit as much today as I did the day I married her. But love isn't enough if it doesn't translate to action. I need to her show me that she loves me and not just say it. There is more than just sex involved in making me feel loved and she's stepped up a little there to her credit.
I know I need to just let this go and just accept what she's willing to give me (it has gotten a little better at least in frequency). I can only control myself and how I feel. I just don't know how to let do of my desire, my needs, the things that made me feel so good about her and myself. I'm torn between just letting it all go and continuing to bring it up and not letting her just ignore the issue. I told her yesterday that I would feel better if she would just say "No, I'm not going to do X ever again because..." rather than being wishy washy about it. I know she knows she should do it, but she doesn't doesn't feel good enough about herself to do it.
I'm at a loss for what to do. I'm tired of compromising the things that are important to me while giving her everything she wants.
Thanks in advance for your advice or just for a reassuring word. I know what I'm feeling is pretty common for men and she pointed out yesterday that it's normal for women to have less desire once they have kids. I pointed out that I don't want to be normal. I didn't marry her so we could have a normal life. I want a great life with her.
Sorry... that got kinda long.
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I'm 57 and to tell you the truth I can't remember the last time I had sex with my wife. That spigot dried up when menopause began, so I don't know how much help I can be here, except to say that according to your profile you're 39, so I don't think age should be a factor just yet. But you're definitely on the downslope at this point so the most honest advice I can give you at this point is you should lower your expectations a notch or two. And if you're not willing to lower your expectations and if this is critical to your happiness then I guess you have a decision to make.
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I'm 57 and to tell you the truth I can't remember the last time I had sex with my wife. That spigot dried up when menopause began, so I don't know how much help I can be here, except to say that according to your profile you're 39, so I don't think age should be a factor just yet. But you're definitely on the downslope at this point so the most honest advice I can give you at this point is you should lower your expectations a notch or two. And if you're not willing to lower your expectations and if this is critical to your happiness then I guess you have a decision to make.
I know I need to lower my expectations a bit. A year ago I was shooting for the sex life of my dreams. To my wife's credit she stepped up part of the way for a couple months, but there was tons of fighting and in many ways it was the worst stretch of our marriage. That was when I felt like leaving was an option. I had to back off before things were irreparably damaged. Now, my expectations are a little more realistic. I feel like our 30s were a lost decade as far as sex went. I got the bare minimum and I don't want to waste my 40s too before menopause kicks in and all bets are off. I was patient and understanding for a decade when the kids were little while feeling unwanted and rejected. I can't put up with that for another decade (even though we have another little one in the house now). I know I said it a couple times above, but I feel like what I want is incredibly reasonable. That's what makes this so hard when she obviously doesn't want it. I'm asking for a small fraction of what I really want and even that is too much.
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Can't really give helpful advice, but have you ever truly asked her, why she doesn't want to have sex, or not as often as you want? Maybe it's got absolutely nothing to do with you, maybe it's something completely different and maybe it's something she can't explain either, or has problems talking about.
If you are so unhappy with that situation, have you considered getting outside help? A coach, a therapist or something like that for the both of you?
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Have some thoughts I want to share, will do so via PM later.
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Can't really give helpful advice, but have you ever truly asked her, why she doesn't want to have sex, or not as often as you want? Maybe it's got absolutely nothing to do with you, maybe it's something completely different and maybe it's something she can't explain either, or has problems talking about.
If you are so unhappy with that situation, have you considered getting outside help? A coach, a therapist or something like that for the both of you?
For the sake of her privacy (as if I haven't aired enough of our dirty laundry) I did not bring it up, but yes she has reasons. These reasons have nothing to do with me. However, these reasons are not new and were not a major issue 15 years ago, so why now? Clearly having kids dredged something up for her. I don't know. Yes, we have discussed getting outside help. We talked yesterday about whether she needs help to deal with her issues or if we need help together. That question needs to be revisited. I told her yesterday that I would have a lot more sympathy for her issues if she had spent year getting therapy and help dealing with it and still struggled. But she's done virtually nothing to get help.
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Can't really give helpful advice, but have you ever truly asked her, why she doesn't want to have sex, or not as often as you want? Maybe it's got absolutely nothing to do with you, maybe it's something completely different and maybe it's something she can't explain either, or has problems talking about.
If you are so unhappy with that situation, have you considered getting outside help? A coach, a therapist or something like that for the both of you?
For the sake of her privacy (as if I haven't aired enough of our dirty laundry) I did not bring it up, but yes she has reasons. These reasons have nothing to do with me. However, these reasons are not new and were not a major issue 15 years ago, so why now? Clearly having kids dredged something up for her. I don't know. Yes, we have discussed getting outside help. We talked yesterday about whether she needs help to deal with her issues or if we need help together. That question needs to be revisited. I told her yesterday that I would have a lot more sympathy for her issues if she had spent year getting therapy and help dealing with it and still struggled. But she's done virtually nothing to get help.
Maybe you both need to get help? I'm not married, and don't have kids, so I don't have advice from that perspective.
Kwyjibo is probably onto something with getting some outside help, but I don't think it should just be her doing it.
You've said that she's stepped up in other ways to make you feel loved, which is something. You've also said that it's gotten a little better in terms of frequency, which is something too. If you love her as much as when you got married... I don't know. You may have to decide if everything else you have together will make you happier than losing all that to try to find someone with a more similar sex drive.
You've said that it would be really simple for her to do what you want and what you're asking for is reasonable, but if she just doesn't want to do it, it's not really simple at all. If you asked her to put her coat away when she gets home instead of throwing it on your favorite chair - that's something simple she could do even if she doesn't really want to.
But when it comes to her body, that's an incredibly different story. Even if she had no trauma, forcing herself to do something she doesn't want to could be kind of traumatic in itself. She does have trauma, so that's adding to it.
Maybe you both could use some individual therapy and some joint?
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This is a tough one, as I get wanting more sex if the urges are there, but it's not a whole lotta fun when your partner does it just for you (the lack of enthusiasm and craving is obvious in so many little ways). A girlfriend I had a few years ago went through spells where she wanted it like crazy for weeks (those were fun) and then not at all for weeks (not so fun), and even though she would occasionally do it when she really wasn't feeling it, it wasn't nearly as fun as when she was wanting to really get after it, if you catch my drift. Long story short, there is no easy solution and you can't make someone's sexual urges go up, unless you look like Brad Pitt and can make the average woman horny just by giving them a look :lol, so, as others have said, you have a decision to make. Good luck.
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I think she could use help first and then maybe I could join her and we can learn to deal with it together. I can't force her into therapy. And of course it's her body and her choice. Again, the frustration is that she used to do these things freely and without issues. So why not now? Why am I no longer worth the effort?
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This is a tough one, as I get wanting more sex if the urges are there, but it's not a whole lotta fun when your partner does it just for you (the lack of enthusiasm and craving is obvious in so many little ways). A girlfriend I had a few years ago went through spells where she wanted it like crazy for weeks (those were fun) and then not at all for weeks (not so fun), and even though she would occasionally do it when she really wasn't feeling it, it wasn't nearly as fun as when she was wanting to really get after it, if you catch my drift. Long story short, there is no easy solution and you can't make someone's sexual urges go up, unless you look like Brad Pitt and can make the average woman horny just by giving them a look :lol, so, as others have said, you have a decision to make. Good luck.
I would definitely take quality over quantity. Once a week when she's into it is way better than twice when she's just laying there letting me do my thing. The thing is, even when she's not in the mood, it may take a few extra minutes, bit she always ends up just as satisfied as me. That's one of the frustrations. I have no problem spending a little extra time on her to start and she knows this. If it all ends up well in the end, why is it such a big deal?
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For lack of a better place to ask for advice, I'm going to continue to use this thread for marriage advice even though Bosk will likely point out that it wasn't the original intention of this thread. :) I honestly don't know where else to turn, so I appreciate your advice.
*all of that*
Sorry... that got kinda long.
I'll bite. You asked for some advice, and I'll give you my two cents. Take from it what you will. I'm also 57. Things do slow down; although they don't have to stop completely. But here goes. You may not like what you hear, but I have been there as well. So, I have some experience here.
You unpacked a lot there. But you also gave some real clues that I think you are missing, or overlooking. I would suggest first of all that you are confusing initmacy with sex. Surely the act of sex is an intimate act, but there are a lot of ways to be intimate without having sex. Have you stopped to think of ways that your wife may want to express or does express her love or intimacy without actually having sex with you? Maybe she too doesn't know how to separate the two, and so now you are both stuck so to speak.
Have you thought of all the other ways she expresses her love for you without having sex? You didn't mention what type of mother she is. Or is she a faithful, and kind, and loving wife in other ways? Is she someone who you can count on to be there when it's you against the world? Does she have your back in other ways in the marriage? Does she still laugh at all of your stupid stories after you have told them for the 1,000th time? Does she encourage and support you? All of these things are incredibly important.
I'm not suggesting that no sex is good. But you didn't say you had NO sex. You are basically saying that because she won't perform to your level of the ideal sex life, then it's her fault, and things are bad.
Have you asked yourself why you seem to think the single greatest thing she can do is have sex with you? Have you considered how she feels having to reject you all the time? Have you considered how she is probably thinking,"He says he loves me, but if he did why can't he see that perhaps I'm hurting inside?"
And you are completely overlooking the single greatest issue between the two of you.
" I know she knows she should do it, but she doesn't feel good enough about herself to do it."
First, why do you say, I know she knows she should do it? She isn't your property, right?
And secondly, the fact that she is telling you that she doesn't feel good about herself is the key here.
Imagine... she had a couple of kids. She probably works, and tries to help manage the house. She has probably put on some pounds. There is the stress of a global pandemic going on. Women are constanly bombarded in focusing on their self image and worth in society based on their looks. She is maybe second guessing her career choices. Always comparing herself and her life to her peers. And she has told you that she doesn't feel good about herself. But instead of trying to help her, or be understanding, you come at her with "Why won't you lick my taint like you did when we were 20?" or whatever. I don't mean to be harsh, and I'm not trying to diminish your needs in any way, but the sad reality is if you entered into your marriage or relationship and thought your sex life was going to only always be "ideal", life just doesn't work that way very often, and your comments come off as being a bit selfish.
What ways do you go out of your way to make her feel sexy? And I'm not talking about telling her she has a nice ass, or that you want to fuck her. There a tons of ways to reassure her and make her realize she is still sexy to you without engaging in or expecting sex. Work on your own relationship initmacy skills.
Lastly, if you feel all you do is fight, then I'd suggest counseling for the two of you, or maybe go yourself. Tell her you want to work on some skills that will make you a better husband and partner, and go to a few sessions by yourself. I'll bet you'd probably learn a few things about yourself and at the very least gain some clarity on how to respond in a more positive way to your situation.
Whatever you do, don't suggest that she has the problem and she needs therapy because she is somehow broken.
But do something. Don't wait until you both resent each other, and despite your best efforts it's too late. Especally since you still love her.
I have been there. It doesn't end well if you ignore it, our are unwilling to change and adapt.
And I have also had a pretty crazy past. I had a real issue with sex and intimacy for a long time. I have slept with probably 1,200 women give or take a couple hundred. I had a lot of fun. But that is not bragging. It took me a long time and lots of therapy to come to grips with how badly I felt about my promiscuity. No woman was off limits to me. I helped ruin more than a few marriages and dozens of relationships, and never let myself get close enough to anyone to know how great they were outside of bed. Fun? Sure...Until it isn't enough anymore-- and let me tell you, I wouldn't trade the healthy intimacy, the partnership, and support from a loving, caring wife now, for all the pussy in the world. Making your sex life the priority and chasing down everything that moves is lonely as fuck. So she only has sex with you once a week instead of three. There are much worse fates.
Good luck
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I think she could use help first and then maybe I could join her and we can learn to deal with it together. I can't force her into therapy. And of course it's her body and her choice. Again, the frustration is that she used to do these things freely and without issues. So why not now? Why am I no longer worth the effort?
It's probably not about you being worth it. Maybe she used to want to do it in her 20s, and something changed after having kids and/or getting older, and now she doesn't. Then add in maybe trauma that she pushed aside resurfacing making it even worse. I don't know what that trauma is, but it could probably benefit from therapy. But you probably could too. If you're talking about not being worth it, feeling worthless, etc, even though you said she told you that it is not you... That's probably something therapy could help with too. You probably know intellectually that it's not you, you seem to believe that she's telling the truth. Maybe therapy could help you take that a little further so you take her lack of desire less personally.
I'm not at all saying it's should all be on you, but that's something you could do right now to help yourself work through things. Maybe her seeing you get therapy will help convince her to do so.
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First thing I will say is that really sucks and I'm sorry you are dealing with that.
Secondly, if there's one thing you can't do is negotiate desire. It just doesn't work that way. So its great that you expressed how you feel to her, but that will not get her hot for you. And she will always be wishy washy about it, that's just how it is.
These dead bedroom situations are always really a shame, and you are not the only guy to be dealing with it. There's actually a whole sub reddit dedicated to it: https://www.reddit.com/r/DeadBedrooms/
But anyway, hopefully this is salvageable. What kind of shape are you in? Do you lift and go to the gym? Do you have masculine hobbies like Martial Arts or motorcycle riding or playing sports? Do you have goals or hobbies you are pursuing that don't involve her? Because if you are constantly asking her for intimacy that only pushes her away. You have to have your own thing going own, which attracts her to you.
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First thing I will say is that really sucks and I'm sorry you are dealing with that.
This!
I've been thinking about what to say, maybe to ask a question, or make a comment, but this is really deep between two people I don't know. It's impossible from here to even remotely say something of some benefit.
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You all raise good points. I don't have the time to respond in line with everything. Just wanted to say a few things to clarify:
I spent countless hours last year working in myself and trying to have more sympathy for her, trying to understand her views and feelings. In part I can never understand because I haven't been through what she's been through. And honestly I only know at a very vague level that some traumatic stuff happened to her. I just want to make it clear that I have made tons of effort to see things her way and paid a good deal of money to get help.
I think a huge part of it for me is that I feel resentful that I spend hours every day doing things for her and feel like I get so little. Snuggling in the couch is nearly as good as sex, but she rarely wants to do that. Sitting and really connecting is great as well, but most nights she'd rather look at her phone than talk to me. I know what makes her feel loved and I make a conscious effort every single day to meet that need for her. I ask for sex about 1/3 of the time I want to. And I don't hound her or bug her about it. I ask (she doesn't respond well to me just trying to start things) and she'll often say no, but is saying yes more and more. She hasn't initiated in nearly a year and that sucks, because sex that she initiates is worth double .
I also feel resentful because it seems like the expectation is for me to work harder to please her in nonsexual ways to get her to want sex. I bust my ass for her every single day, so the thought of doing more makes me a little angry. Why is being a good husband and father not enough? Why is all the effort I put in not enough?
On her body image issues and not feeling good about herself. I don't know how to help her with this and I try really hard not to make it worse. She assured me that I have not done anything to make her feel this way. I reassure her that I love her body whenever I can, and I genuinely do love it. It sucks that society tries to tell women how they need to look. Her lack of even the smallest effort to be sexy bothers me far more than the extra pounds or stretch marks from having kids. I simply don't know how to help her here. She basically doesn't like me commenting on her body at all.
I was doing better getting out and having me time until Covid hit. That has lead us to being home a lot more. But I know I need to find things to do to make me happier outside of her.
Thanks again for the thoughtful posts. Definitely has given me things to think about. Ultimately I know I need to relax my expectations even more than I already have and that sucks. I know I need to stop seeing sex as the only way she expressed love, but I literally asked her yesterday what else she does for me to show me love and she came up with ""I snuggled on the couch with you yesterday for a few minutes." It was like 3 minutes. I probably spent at least half an hour that day specifically doing things to make her feel loved. But I also know it's not a competition or not a thing that needs to be equal. I don't always expect anything in return when I do something for her, but I can only do so much before it becomes apparent that it's largely one sided.
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I can only add this from my experience.
I know in my case, the struggle isn't the effort or the willingness to do the work, it's establishing the "language" of that communication. Ever read the "Love Languages" book? it's not hard science, but there's some truth to it. If you're putting in the effort with what YOU think she wants, that's fine, but it's best that you put in the effort with what she REALLY wants. You're probably doing that, but I can't tell from the post.
Also, it's not foolproof, but a fair rule of thumb is problems in the bedroom are a symptom of more general problems. Something to think about.
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I can only add this from my experience.
I know in my case, the struggle isn't the effort or the willingness to do the work, it's establishing the "language" of that communication. Ever read the "Love Languages" book? it's not hard science, but there's some truth to it. If you're putting in the effort with what YOU think she wants, that's fine, but it's best that you put in the effort with what she REALLY wants. You're probably doing that, but I can't tell from the post.
Also, it's not foolproof, but a fair rule of thumb is problems in the bedroom are a symptom of more general problems. Something to think about.
Yes, we've read that book. She's primarily an acts of service love language, I am physical touch followed by quality time. I work really hard to serve her every single day. I try to connect with her every day. I feel like I do all of the things that I read men are supposed to do to make their wives want sex. That's one of the hardest things for me is that on paper I feel like I'm doing everything right. But something is missing, and I don't know what that is. She either doesn't know either or won't tell me.
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Yes, we've read that book. She's primarily an acts of service love language, I am physical touch followed by quality time. I work really hard to serve her every single day. I try to connect with her every day.
I feel like I do all of the things that I read men are supposed to do to make their wives want sex.
That's one of the hardest things for me is that on paper I feel like I'm doing everything right. But something is missing, and I don't know what that is. She either doesn't know either or won't tell me.
Can you list out the things you think you are supposed to be doing according to your reading?
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Yes, we've read that book. She's primarily an acts of service love language, I am physical touch followed by quality time. I work really hard to serve her every single day. I try to connect with her every day.
I feel like I do all of the things that I read men are supposed to do to make their wives want sex.
That's one of the hardest things for me is that on paper I feel like I'm doing everything right. But something is missing, and I don't know what that is. She either doesn't know either or won't tell me.
Can you list out the things you think you are supposed to be doing according to your reading?
Nonsexual physical touch, communication and listening to her, helping around the house so she doesn't feel overwhelmed with chores to do, taking the kids and giving her me time. I try to be a little flirty and make her laugh as much as I can. I have good hygiene, so that's not an issue. Those are the most common things I read about. Of course that's not an exhaustive list and each woman an has her own things. My wife either can't or won't tell me what else helps for her.
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Ever read the "Love Languages" book?
I am not familiar with it, but my last employer, and long-time friend of my spouse, swore by that book.
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Ever read the "Love Languages" book?
I am not familiar with it, but my last employer, and long-time friend of my spouse, swore by that book.
It's extremely accurate for me and my love languages.
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It may be something deep seeded with how she feels about herself. Maybe she doesn't feel sexy at all.
What was something in her past when you dated that was romantic to her. Sometimes it isn't the chores that matter, it's what made her feel like a woman. The romance, the chase.
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What if she had a physical disease that made sex impossible? Would that make a difference to your sexual needs and cause more understanding? There seems to be a mental issue regarding sex, and perhaps should be considered in a similar way as a physical limitation. I'm just thinking that maybe it isn't something that you should personally internalize.
Regardless of the cause, you get married for better or worse, in sickness and health...
If the shoe was on the other foot, and you had ED, should her sexual "needs" truly outweigh any issue you're experiencing.
Are able to enjoy anything with your wife? A game of cards, a TV show, your children?
I apologize, but based on what you've shared, this is what I've been thinking, and I hope none of it is viewed as judgmental or out of line. These are delicate marital issues you're experiencing.
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We enjoy plenty of things. We have a very good relationship apart from this. And if she had a physical reason she could have sex, I'd still expect some sexual activity assuming she wasn't paralyzed or something. If I had ED I'd find other ways to please her.
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We enjoy plenty of things. We have a very good relationship apart from this. And if she had a physical reason she could have sex, I'd still expect some sexual activity assuming she wasn't paralyzed or something. If I had ED I'd find other ways to please her.
Damn, bro. OK then.
Good luck, brother!
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Honestly that kind of talk sounds like maybe you are the problem.
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Honestly that kind of talk sounds like maybe you are the problem.
Really? As I said, if I was unable to get it up, I'd still find ways to please her sexually assuming she wanted it. I don't understand why wanting the occasional handjob or something would be unreasonable if she was unable to have sex. Of course my expectations would be low, but we don't get to completly ignore our spouses needs just because it may be a little difficult for us. Of course it would be a conversation or probably several conversations we'd have and I'd find out what she was willing to do in that situation. If she was unwilling to do anything, then I'd respect that. But if the tables were turned I would absolutely do my best to please her however I could. Am I odd that way? Is this really an unreasonable line of thinking?
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Yeah, I'd suggest therapy, dude. Possibly marriage counseling. IMO, you're not part of the solution.
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Yeah, I'd suggest therapy, dude. Possibly marriage counseling. IMO, you're not part of the solution.
Seriously, explain why my line of thinking is so off. It seems very reasonable to me, and I did update my previous post to clarify, not sure if you read the final version.
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I've met very few women in my life who wouldn't be turned off by your attitude toward sex. I'm sure there is someone who would think it's fine, but to expect it from the majority of women is not realistic. Now I could totally be misreading, but you sound very clinical, focused, and self absorbed. If the reason you do all those chores, flirting, making her laugh, etc. is to build up sexual credit that you expect payment for, that would come across pretty clear to your spouse.
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I've met very few women in my life who wouldn't be turned off by your attitude toward sex. I'm sure there is someone who would think it's fine, but to expect it from the majority of women is not realistic. Now I could totally be misreading, but you sound very clinical, focused, and self absorbed. If the reason you do all those chores, flirting, making her laugh, etc. is to build up sexual credit that you expect payment for, that would come across pretty clear to your spouse.
it definitely comes of as clinical when I try to explain it, I'll admit that. And yes, my mind works very logically and I've been trying to work around that since I know this isn't about logic to her. I don't think it's as clinical in real life as I explain it here, but I know that is a bit of my issue and I have been working on that. I don't view sex as a transactional thing where I do x y and z and then get sex, though I can see how it would come across that way as I've explained it here. Thanks for your input though. I know this is a problem and I have been working on it, though I'm just terrible at explaining myself in a way that doesn't sound ordered and logical. That's just the way my brain works. It's hard for me write About emotion and desire and those types of things. I think the problem in this thread is 75% my writing style and 25% how I actually view things in real life. I know I need to work on that 25% and I have been.
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That's fair. It's notoriously difficult to explain the subtlety of such situations in written words.
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To add a little levity, this whole thing just proves what I have said for years about men: we are not that hard to keep happy. Just be nice to us and give us some action on a somewhat regular basis and we are good. :P :lol
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xizor, first and foremost, I hope that you don't think we're all jumping all over you on this. You were seeking advice, and we're offering it - though it may not be what you wanted or expected to hear. I think many of us are trying to help you see your blindspot(s) on this matter. With that said ...
Honestly that kind of talk sounds like maybe you are the problem.
Really? As I said, if I was unable to get it up, I'd still find ways to please her sexually assuming she wanted it. I don't understand why expecting the occasional handjob or something would be unreasonable if she was unable to have sex. Of course my expectations would be low, bur we don't get to completly ignore our spouses needs just because it may be a little difficult for us.
I think this just goes to how polar opposite you and your wife are around the importance of sexual intimacy. The fact that you're already in a situation where you say you recognize her struggles with it, and then suggest that you would still perform "for" her if you had physical limitations is (to me) tone deaf to your reality, and selfish. If she has and extremely low sex drive/desire while you're physically fine, what makes you think it would be important for you to pleasure her if you had physical limitations. This may not be what you're directly thinking or suggesting, but the simple fact that you expressed that thought/opinion is telling (and I'm now the 4th person to recognize it as such). I'm beginning to wonder if you have an addiction of some manner. Once a week isn't sufficient and disappoints you? You have 4 kids and a newborn, right? I'm not sure I wanted (or needed) sex weekly when I was 39, let alone under that family environment! :lol
Look, I could probably write 4-5 pages on this topic as it relates to the jingle.marriage (I'm not being hyperbolic at all, I'll try to summarize some points below), but I suggest you practice a little bit more empathy, and see your situation for how it is, not how you want it to be. I'm not judging you at all for sexual intimacy being an important piece of your marriage, and if it is THE most important piece then there is a lot of soul-searching you (and mrs xizor) have to do. Physical Touch is also my primary love language, but for mrs.jingle it's primarily Quality Time and Words of Affection (secondary). So it hurt me to no end when mrs.jingle once said a few years ago on this topic "I guess I'm just not that physical a person". Mrs.jingle is the only woman I've been with. I thought our sexual relationship during the dating stage was great (though, I had no point of reference). Once married, it got rather clinical, as she wanted kids asap. For the 15 years after the jingle.kids were born, it was once a month, pretty much like clockwork - occasionally more, sometimes less. Then about 5 years ago, that started to decline, and we'd go a few months at a time with nothing. We'd have sex maybe 6-8 times a year. Right now, it's been 7 months (Father's Day weekend was the last time we had sex). There's a lot of factors and reasons, not all of which I think are fair or reasonable, but it is what it is, and I'm incredibly unsatisfied with our sexual relationship. However, I've learned to accept this as reality, and found other ways to be happy with my life and marriage, despite this gap in my needs around feeling loved and sexual fulfillment as part of my overall happiness. For my own needs, I workout; I listen to a lot of music; I have this community; I have a satisfying career. For our relationship, I love and appreciate every other aspect of our marriage and of mrs.jingle as a wife, mom, and person (she's wonderful at all three, the sexual issue notwithstanding), and I have lots to love about it. I believe it is ultimately *MY* responsibility to love and care for myself. It's nobody's job on this planet except my own to make myself happy, to satisfy/fulfill my definition of being happy. So, it's up to me to fill my life with love, and while sexual intimacy would make me feel a lot of love from mrs.jingle, it's expecting something that she's not capable of. As such, I've adjusted my expectations accordingly, and filled my life with other things that allow me love myself and love my life, ALL things considered.
I agree with other comments that your attitude, beliefs, and expectations are part of the problem. You say that you recognize it isn't a competition, but your comments very much suggest you are keeping score to some degree (despite your indication that it's a matter of how you're communicating it to us). It seems to me you are expecting things out of her that she's incapable of providing. Expecting someone to do and be capable of something they're not is a recipe for disappointment (you wouldn't go to your doctor if your transmission was shot!), and it seems that's exactly where you are - hence my comment on practicing empathy.
Just because you think what you want seems "incredibly reasonable" and "logical" means jack shit. Your wife may think that once a month (or year) is reasonable. Your teenager may think that having a boyfriend 10 years older than her is incredibly reasonable. The Libz may think it's reasonable for the gov't to wipe out student debt. Your neighbour may think it's reasonable to have a backyard party blaring music all night. Ones definition of logic and what's reasonable is theirs, and theirs alone. If all of us here tell you you're being unreasonable, would that instantly change your beliefs? I would suspect not ... which kinda proves the point. What I think as (un)reasonable doesn't - and shouldn't matter to you. Ergo, what you think is reasonable doesn't really matter. Sure, I'm just some dude on the internet a thousand miles away, but I don't think it changes when the people in question are married.
To add a little levity, this whole thing just proves what I have said for years about men: we are not that hard to keep happy. Just be nice to us and give us some action on a somewhat regular basis and we are good. :P :lol
And a sammich every once and a while.
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To add a little levity, this whole thing just proves what I have said for years about men: we are not that hard to keep happy. Just be nice to us and give us some action on a somewhat regular basis and we are good. :P :lol
I know right? That's why this is so hard for me! It would be so damn simple for her to please me and yet she refuses to do more than the bare minimum. I put in a ton of effort to make her feel important, loved, appreciated, etc. I do so many things that I don't want to do and get nothing out of so that she knows she's my top priority. All I want in return is for her to have sex with me more often and in more exciting ways, something that she gets enjoyment out of too! Yet apparently that's unreasonable to ask for.
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To add a little levity, this whole thing just proves what I have said for years about men: we are not that hard to keep happy. Just be nice to us and give us some action on a somewhat regular basis and we are good. :P :lol
I know right? That's why this is so hard for me! It would be so damn simple for her to please me and yet she refuses to do more than the bare minimum. I put in a ton of effort to make her feel important, loved, appreciated, etc. I do so many things that I don't want to do and get nothing out ofso that she knows she's my top priority. All I want in return is for her to have sex with me more often and in more exciting ways, something that she gets enjoyment out of too! Yet apparently that's unreasonable to ask for.
Again... subconsciously you are keeping score. I used to do this - mentally keep tabs on all the things I would do for mrs.jingle, and get nothing in return. Now I just do things for her because that's what being a good husband is about. I'm clearly not getting anything sexual out of it, but it doesn't mean I stop doing it. I've just stopped thinking about what I'm not getting. It's not a healthy thought process.
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To add a little levity, this whole thing just proves what I have said for years about men: we are not that hard to keep happy. Just be nice to us and give us some action on a somewhat regular basis and we are good. :P :lol
I know right? That's why this is so hard for me! It would be so damn simple for her to please me and yet she refuses to do more than the bare minimum. I put in a ton of effort to make her feel important, loved, appreciated, etc. I do so many things that I don't want to do and get nothing out of so that she knows she's my top priority. All I want in return is for her to have sex with me more often and in more exciting ways, something that she gets enjoyment out of too! Yet apparently that's unreasonable to ask for.
Well, I think it goes without saying that men and women, for the most part, have different views on sex, not to mention that men (generally speaking, as I know there are many exceptions in both directions) seem to have a much higher sex drive/need for sex. What makes men happy is not always the same thing that makes women happy, and when I say that, I am talking about many things, not necessarily sex.
And I know it is risky to say such things nowadays when we are supposed to act like men and women are exactly the same and how dare we discuss it and differentiate between the two, but let's be honest here for a bit, eh?
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Gregg, Chad & Kevin have said some poignant thoughts. I think you need to be delicate with this situation. Therapy is the right call. There is something right now that is stopping her from sex and she is not willing to explain so that's why you need to tread lightly. Therapy may be the way for her to open up.
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xizor, first and foremost, I hope that you don't think we're all jumping all over you on this. You were seeking advice, and we're offering it - though it may not be what you wanted or expected to hear. I think many of us are trying to help you see your blindspot(s) on this matter. With that said ...
Honestly that kind of talk sounds like maybe you are the problem.
Really? As I said, if I was unable to get it up, I'd still find ways to please her sexually assuming she wanted it. I don't understand why expecting the occasional handjob or something would be unreasonable if she was unable to have sex. Of course my expectations would be low, bur we don't get to completly ignore our spouses needs just because it may be a little difficult for us.
I think this just goes to how polar opposite you and your wife are around the importance of sexual intimacy. The fact that you're already in a situation where you say you recognize her struggles with it, and then suggest that you would still perform "for" her if you had physical limitations is (to me) tone deaf to your reality, and selfish. If she has and extremely low sex drive/desire while you're physically fine, what makes you think it would be important for you to pleasure her if you had physical limitations. This may not be what you're directly thinking or suggesting, but the simple fact that you expressed that thought/opinion is telling (and I'm now the 4th person to recognize it as such). I'm beginning to wonder if you have an addiction of some manner. Once a week isn't sufficient and disappoints you? You have 4 kids and a newborn, right? I'm not sure I wanted (or needed) sex weekly when I was 39, let alone under that family environment! :lol
Look, I could probably write 4-5 pages on this topic as it relates to the jingle.marriage (I'm not being hyperbolic at all, I'll try to summarize some points below), but I suggest you practice a little bit more empathy, and see your situation for how it is, not how you want it to be. I'm not judging you at all for sexual intimacy being an important piece of your marriage, and if it is THE most important piece then there is a lot of soul-searching you (and mrs xizor) have to do. Physical Touch is also my primary love language, but for mrs.jingle it's primarily Quality Time and Words of Affection (secondary). So it hurt me to no end when mrs.jingle once said a few years ago on this topic "I guess I'm just not that physical a person". Mrs.jingle is the only woman I've been with. I thought our sexual relationship during the dating stage was great (though, I had no point of reference). Once married, it got rather clinical, as she wanted kids asap. For the 15 years after the jingle.kids were born, it was once a month, pretty much like clockwork - occasionally more, sometimes less. Then about 5 years ago, that started to decline, and we'd go a few months at a time with nothing. We'd have sex maybe 6-8 times a year. Right now, it's been 7 months (Father's Day weekend was the last time we had sex). There's a lot of factors and reasons, not all of which I think are fair or reasonable, but it is what it is, and I'm incredibly unsatisfied with our sexual relationship. However, I've learned to accept this as reality, and found other ways to be happy with my life and marriage, despite this gap in my needs around feeling loved and sexual fulfillment as part of my overall happiness. For my own needs, I workout; I listen to a lot of music; I have this community; I have a satisfying career. For our relationship, I love and appreciate every other aspect of our marriage and of mrs.jingle as a wife, mom, and person (she's wonderful at all three, the sexual issue notwithstanding), and I have lots to love about it. I believe it is ultimately *MY* responsibility to love and care for myself. It's nobody's job on this planet except my own to make myself happy, to satisfy/fulfill my definition of being happy. So, it's up to me to fill my life with love, and while sexual intimacy would make me feel a lot of love from mrs.jingle, it's expecting something that she's not capable of. As such, I've adjusted my expectations accordingly, and filled my life with other things that allow me love myself and love my life, ALL things considered.
I agree with other comments that your attitude, beliefs, and expectations are part of the problem. You say that you recognize it isn't a competition, but your comments very much suggest you are keeping score to some degree (despite your indication that it's a matter of how you're communicating it to us). It seems to me you are expecting things out of her that she's incapable of providing. Expecting someone to do and be capable of something they're not is a recipe for disappointment (you wouldn't go to your doctor if your transmission was shot!), and it seems that's exactly where you are - hence my comment on practicing empathy.
Just because you think what you want seems "incredibly reasonable" and "logical" means jack shit. Your wife may think that once a month (or year) is reasonable. Your teenager may think that having a boyfriend 10 years older than her is incredibly reasonable. The Libz may think it's reasonable for the gov't to wipe out student debt. Your neighbour may think it's reasonable to have a backyard party blaring music all night. Ones definition of logic and what's reasonable is theirs, and theirs alone. If all of us here tell you you're being unreasonable, would that instantly change your beliefs? I would suspect not ... which kinda proves the point. What I think as (un)reasonable doesn't - and shouldn't matter to you. Ergo, what you think is reasonable doesn't really matter. Sure, I'm just some dude on the internet a thousand miles away, but I don't think it changes when the people in question are married.
To add a little levity, this whole thing just proves what I have said for years about men: we are not that hard to keep happy. Just be nice to us and give us some action on a somewhat regular basis and we are good. :P :lol
And a sammich every once and a while.
Thanks for your comments. I really was looking for advice and I am taking all of it seriously. I get what you're saying. I really do. I have backed way off from what I was pushing for a year ago out of respect and empathy for her. I know that I will never get everything I want and have reset my expectations accordingly. I know we're at a point in life that one would expect things to slow down. The problem is that during some of what should have been our peak sexual years, I was getting a quarter or less as much sex as I wanted and virtually nothing outside of extremely vanilla. I just want to get to a point where it feels like we're meeting in the middle instead of 90% to her end of the spectrum.
Honestly, what is most frustrating and hurts the most is that sex is different than all the things she needs. I can't claim that it's difficult for me to run errands for her or that I just don't have the desire to give her a shoulder massage after a long day. That would make me sound like a complete asshole. Yet, when I explain that feeling desired sexually is fundamental to my sense of well-being in our relationship and is the single best way she can show me that she loves me and wants me to be her husband and not just the guy who pays the bills, it's perfectly acceptable for her to say "well, I just don't want to do that anymore" and I'm just supposed to accept that.
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To add a little levity, this whole thing just proves what I have said for years about men: we are not that hard to keep happy. Just be nice to us and give us some action on a somewhat regular basis and we are good. :P :lol
I know right? That's why this is so hard for me! It would be so damn simple for her to please me and yet she refuses to do more than the bare minimum. I put in a ton of effort to make her feel important, loved, appreciated, etc. I do so many things that I don't want to do and get nothing out ofso that she knows she's my top priority. All I want in return is for her to have sex with me more often and in more exciting ways, something that she gets enjoyment out of too! Yet apparently that's unreasonable to ask for.
Again... subconsciously you are keeping score. I used to do this - mentally keep tabs on all the things I would do for mrs.jingle, and get nothing in return. Now I just do things for her because that's what being a good husband is about. I'm clearly not getting anything sexual out of it, but it doesn't mean I stop doing it. I've just stopped thinking about what I'm not getting. It's not a healthy thought process.
Yes, this is something I struggle with. I try not to keep a mental scorecard, and I don't consciously think of it that way, but sooner or later it starts to creep into my mind that I'm busting my ass for her and getting little in return. I wholeheartedly agree that we're supposed to make sacrifices and work hard for our spouses, but that needs to go both ways.
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Does she not cook meals that you especially like?
Does she keep the house clean? Does she spend time to plan vacations to include activities that everyone, including you, will enjoy?
Does she work, or is she a homemaker (just as important as working)?
Or does she just simply ignore you completely?
If the only issue is sex, then you have it better than most guys, just so you know.
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Does she not cook meals that you especially like?
Does she keep the house clean? Does she spend time to plan vacations to include activities that everyone, including you, will enjoy?
Does she work, or is she a homemaker (just as important as working)?
Or does she just simply ignore you completely?
If the only issue is sex, then you have it better than most guys, just so you know.
I do 80% of the cooking. I do more cleaning than her and regularly clean up after her. I plan most of the vacations and weekends away. She's a homeschooling mom, so she's home with the kids and works really hard at that, which I regularly acknowledge. She pours her heart and soul into our children, which I appreciate, but often feel like there's very little effort left for me
She doesn't ignore me. We have a pretty good relationship. We parent together well, talk a fair amount, and generally get along well. I don't see any glaring issues outside of the bedroom. And honestly many men with young kids would be thrilled with the once or twice a month she was willing to have sex with me for most of the last 12 years. But I was ignored and rejected 100s of times over that period of time.
I know in the grand scheme of things it could be far worse. But that's not what I want to think about my life: "it could have been worse." I want a great life.
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Ok, and I wasn't asking to be judgemental, only to get a clearer picture of the landscape.
What you want may not be possible with this woman. That's OK too.
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I think, among many other things, you should just accept that only a small percentage of married couples get the sexlife they dream of, the perfect relationship, that's just for movies and romance novels.
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I think, among many other things, you should just accept that only a small percentage of married couples get the sexlife they dream of, the perfect relationship, that's just for movies and romance novels.
That's true. As I said before, I've recalibrated my expectations and now feel like I would be happy if I felt she was meeting me in the middle instead of only taking one tiny step in my direction. A year ago I wasn't going to be happy with anything other than my wildest expectations.
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And a sammich every once and a while.
This had to be said. Well done.
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I think, among many other things, you should just accept that only a small percentage of married couples get the sexlife they dream of, the perfect relationship, that's just for movies and romance novels.
That's true. As I said before, I've recalibrated my expectations and now feel like I would be happy if I felt she was meeting me in the middle instead of only taking one tiny step in my direction. A year ago I wasn't going to be happy with anything other than my wildest expectations.
That is progress, so good for you. (No snark)
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You know... I think this all boils down to one thing for me and this is a question I have for myself in several areas beyond just sex.
How can I make myself be happy with how things are and let go of how I think things could be?
Honestly, this is a struggle with finances, the kids, our marriage in other areas, and more. I just want to be content with life as it is, but I have hopes and dreams. I strive for improvement, not for staying stuck in the status quo. I don't know how to balance the drive for continual improvement with just being content.
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How can I make myself be happy with how things are and let go of how I think things could be?
This sounds similar to the epiphany I had a few years back (and I already touched on) - it's no one's job except my own to make me happy. And conversely, it's not my job to own the happiness of anyone else. I can contribute to others' happiness (as they can to mine), but my happiness is my own to own. I can be miserable for the things I don't have, or the things I'm not getting, or I can let go of that which I can't control, and be happy with what I do have and do.
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How can I make myself be happy with how things are and let go of how I think things could be?
Maybe start by asking yourself why you think things should be different than they are now. Meaning, is it a desire you feel deep inside, that you should improve, or is it something that people say to you, maybe even expect of you? And are you trying to meet people's (and maybe even society's) expectations, or are you doing it, regardless of what people may say.
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it's no one's job except my own to make me happy
This is so true and yet so hard to do, it's so much easier to lay the blame why I'm unhappy on someone else. I definitely know this and I struggle daily with it.
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How can I make myself be happy with how things are and let go of how I think things could be?
This sounds similar to the epiphany I had a few years back (and I already touched on) - it's no one's job except my own to make me happy. And conversely, it's not my job to own the happiness of anyone else. I can contribute to others' happiness (as they can to mine), but my happiness is my own to own. I can be miserable for the things I don't have, or the things I'm not getting, or I can let go of that which I can't control, and be happy with what I do have and do.
Yeah, I get his, but how do you get yourself to fully buy in on it? I had that realization over a year ago and worked really hard to change my mindset. It helped in many ways and I'm in a significantly better place, but I struggle to let go of my desires. How do I convince myself to stop wanting things that I cannot make happen on my own? Realizing you need to let things go and actually doing it are two very different things.
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How can I make myself be happy with how things are and let go of how I think things could be?
This sounds similar to the epiphany I had a few years back (and I already touched on) - it's no one's job except my own to make me happy. And conversely, it's not my job to own the happiness of anyone else. I can contribute to others' happiness (as they can to mine), but my happiness is my own to own. I can be miserable for the things I don't have, or the things I'm not getting, or I can let go of that which I can't control, and be happy with what I do have and do.
Yeah, I get his, but how do you get yourself to fully buy in on it? I had that realization over a year ago and worked really hard to change my mindset. It helped in many ways and I'm in a significantly better place, but I struggle to let go of my desires. How do I convince myself to stop wanting things that I cannot make happen on my own?
I don't know that I have an answer for you, let alone an easy one - if it was simple or easy, everyone would/could do it all the time :lol :-\. For me, it came via reading* during my bouts of depression. No one was put on this Earth to take care of ME (other than my parents, and their job is done). If I'm not taking care of ME, I'm sure as hell not going to do a good job taking care of anyone else. This was a literal epiphany for me - that *I* own my happiness, no one else. Not my kids, not my wife, not my friends, not my employer, not my parents .... no one cares more about my happiness than me. Period. Full stop. So I started figuring out what made me happy in and of myself, and took complete responsibility to fill my 'love tank' (for those that have read the Love Languages). Anything that anyone else does for me, gives to me, provides etc ... is just gravy.
And don't get me wrong, I struggle with this often as well, and sometimes come across as selfish with my decisions and actions.
* I think it was from the book No More Mister Nice Guy by Dr. Robert Glover - which I was reading, ironically, with the purpose of being a better person so that mrs.jingle would be more attracted to me :lol!
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I don't know that I have an answer for you, let alone an easy one - if it was simple or easy, everyone would/could do it all the time :lol :-\. For me, it came via reading* during my bouts of depression. No one was put on this Earth to take care of ME (other than my parents, and their job is done). If I'm not taking care of ME, I'm sure as hell not going to do a good job taking care of anyone else. This was a literal epiphany for me - that *I* own my happiness, no one else. Not my kids, not my wife, not my friends, not my employer, not my parents .... no one cares more about my happiness than me. Period. Full stop. So I started figuring out what made me happy in and of myself, and took complete responsibility to fill my 'love tank' (for those that have read the Love Languages). Anything that anyone else does for me, gives to me, provides etc ... is just gravy.
And don't get me wrong, I struggle with this often as well, and sometimes come across as selfish with my decisions and actions.
* I think it was from the book No More Mister Nice Guy by Dr. Robert Glover - which I was reading, ironically, with the purpose of being a better person so that mrs.jingle would be more attracted to me :lol!
Unfortunately for me, Covid really put a cramp on my efforts to make myself happy in ways apart from my wife. I was getting out with friends more, going to see movies by myself to get some me time, and it was helping. Not really being able to do those things or not feeling like they're worth the risk right now has been hard. There's also something kind of depressing to consciously move away from having your spouse make you happy. I feel like making each other happy is one of our fundamental jobs as a married couple. Not that we need to bend over backwards for each other, but doing little things to make each other happy is part of the gig. I guess in my situation the issue is that I see these things I want as being tiny little things she can do to make me happy, but she sees it as bending over backwards for me.
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I hear you... I really do - on Covid putting a cramp in your 'happy things', and on being depressed for the loss of the relationship you want and in some regards, what we believe is a significant part of a marriage. Mourning and grief over that was a not insignificant contributor to my depression throughout the mid 2010s. Like I said, I don't have an easy answer for you on how to cope through it. For me, it was very much like grieving and mourning a significant loss - as that's exactly what it was. It took time, that's for sure.
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I hear you... I really do - on Covid putting a cramp in your 'happy things', and on being depressed for the loss of the relationship you want and in some regards, what we believe is a significant part of a marriage. Mourning and grief over that was a not insignificant contributor to my depression throughout the mid 2010s. Like I said, I don't have an easy answer for you on how to cope through it. For me, it was very much like grieving and mourning a significant loss - as that's exactly what it was. It took time, that's for sure.
Grieving is a good way to put it. When this all first started for me in late 2019, I really felt like I was grieving the loss of the woman I married. I would look at the photos we have up of ourselves from back then and it would make me want to cry. I miss that woman so much. She has changed so much, in some good ways, but in many ways I'm not thrilled with.
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I hear you... I really do - on Covid putting a cramp in your 'happy things', and on being depressed for the loss of the relationship you want and in some regards, what we believe is a significant part of a marriage. Mourning and grief over that was a not insignificant contributor to my depression throughout the mid 2010s. Like I said, I don't have an easy answer for you on how to cope through it. For me, it was very much like grieving and mourning a significant loss - as that's exactly what it was. It took time, that's for sure.
Grieving is a good way to put it. When this all first started for me in late 2019, I really felt like I was grieving the loss of the woman I married. I would look at the photos we have up of ourselves from back then and it would make me want to cry. I miss that woman so much. She has changed so much, in some good ways, but in many ways I'm not thrilled with.
I know it took a lot for me to understand and accept of myself, but invariably both spouses change over the years/decades. Expecting things to stay the same is also a recipe for disappointment.
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xizor, I pretty much agree with what everyone else is telling you here and think you need to find a way to come to terms with it (or face a tough decision if you really can't).
The timing all seems a little unsettling to me. Is it right that your wife just gave birth in November? From what I know from friends and co-workers with kids, seems like you're actually having more sex than most a few months post partum. You have a baby. Before that she gave birth, before that she was pregnant, and then before that... it seems like you were being so demanding that she had trauma come back up and you said she needed prayers and healing. The trauma is not your fault *at all* - you didn't cause it or know about it. But I get the sense that you were being pushy in a way that would make a lot of spouses uncomfortable even without that history. I'm glad you've backed off from that. It sounds like she's had a crappy year.
Try to realize that your wife is still recovering from birth, pregnancy, her past, and maybe now isn't the time to be asking questions like "what have you done recently to show me you love me." I know you've both read that book about love languages and it's probably insightful but I don't think a marriage counselor would say that questioning her like that is helpful to your marriage.
I do feel for you on this though:
"Sitting and really connecting is great as well, but most nights she'd rather look at her phone than talk to me."
In most of your posts you insist that the marriage is great except for your sex life, but then you say that. Maybe she just needs that kind of mindless down time after homeschooling kids and now having a newborn. It's nice to just be able to sit and waste time on your phone, or watching tv, or whatever. But of course you want to spend time with her. Maybe that's an area you could work on a little. Maybe you could give her her me time but also ask her to make time for something simple you both enjoy. Maybe watching tv, listening to an audio book together, doing a puzzle, etc.
If nothing works and she doesn't want to spend time with you... I don't know. Maybe that's when you insist on marriage counseling. Not to fix her, but at least work through some of these issues.
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The timing all seems a little unsettling to me. Is it right that your wife just gave birth in November? From what I know from friends and co-workers with kids, seems like you're actually having more sex than most a few months post partum. You have a baby. Before that she gave birth, before that she was pregnant, and then before that... it seems like you were being so demanding that she had trauma come back up and you said she needed prayers and healing. The trauma is not your fault *at all* - you didn't cause it or know about it. But I get the sense that you were being pushy in a way that would make a lot of spouses uncomfortable even without that history. I'm glad you've backed off from that. It sounds like she's had a crappy year.
Yes, we had a baby 3 months ago. I was not planning on bringing this all back up with her again for quite a while. Like at least another 6 months until the baby is sleeping through the night. She brought it up the other day which lead to a conversation. Since it was fresh in my mind talking with her, I brought it up here. In no way do I expect immediate results and I made that clear with her. One of the issues that first kicked this all off was not talking about our expectations after having our first kid. Things just fell into this negative place where she ignored and rejected me and we never discussed it. Since she brought it up the other day, I was honest with her about what I want (eventually) and I intend to keep the dialog open.
For the record, when her trauma was dredged up a year ago, I did not know about it. She had been keeping that from me for our entire 14 years together at that point. It was Valentine's day and I sent her what I thought was a fun message about wanting to have a special night for valentine's day and I would love if she came up with a fun bedroom idea that wasn't the same old routine we always follow. That was literally it, almost word for word. Yes, we had been going through a couple months where I was asking for more than I had in the past. "Pushing" is too strong of a word. I made it clear to her at the time that for the first time in our marriage I was actually going to ask for what I wanted. She of course had the right to say no, but I was going to ask. I had been too self conscious and timid to speak up about my desires before. I thought at the time (and still think looking back on it) that I was very respectful about how I asked, but clearly it dredged up something for her, which I felt awful about. There was no way I could have known that simply asking would have hurt her so much. I basically backed off completely at that point. We found out she was pregnant a few days later.
Basically I bring this up to plan for the future. To figure out how, when the time is right, I can start asking for what I want again in a way that's not going to send her back to the same place as a year ago. Our conversation the other day was good, but still frustrating which lead me here.
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I appreciate everyone's input and suggestions. I really have taken all you've said to heart and fully acknowledge that I need to change my expectations. I definitely need to find a way to not take the rejection so personally since I know that this is largely about how she feels about herself and not me.
Unless anyone has anything different to add, I'm going to end this conversation here. PM me if you think you have something to add that might help me and hasn't already been said.
Thanks again. Really helpful conversation even if it wasn't all what I really want to hear.
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Nevermind
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How can I make myself be happy with how things are and let go of how I think things could be?
This sounds similar to the epiphany I had a few years back (and I already touched on) - it's no one's job except my own to make me happy. And conversely, it's not my job to own the happiness of anyone else. I can contribute to others' happiness (as they can to mine), but my happiness is my own to own. I can be miserable for the things I don't have, or the things I'm not getting, or I can let go of that which I can't control, and be happy with what I do have and do.
Yeah, I get his, but how do you get yourself to fully buy in on it? I had that realization over a year ago and worked really hard to change my mindset. It helped in many ways and I'm in a significantly better place, but I struggle to let go of my desires. How do I convince myself to stop wanting things that I cannot make happen on my own?
I don't know that I have an answer for you, let alone an easy one - if it was simple or easy, everyone would/could do it all the time :lol :-\. For me, it came via reading* during my bouts of depression. No one was put on this Earth to take care of ME (other than my parents, and their job is done). If I'm not taking care of ME, I'm sure as hell not going to do a good job taking care of anyone else. This was a literal epiphany for me - that *I* own my happiness, no one else. Not my kids, not my wife, not my friends, not my employer, not my parents .... no one cares more about my happiness than me. Period. Full stop. So I started figuring out what made me happy in and of myself, and took complete responsibility to fill my 'love tank' (for those that have read the Love Languages). Anything that anyone else does for me, gives to me, provides etc ... is just gravy.
And don't get me wrong, I struggle with this often as well, and sometimes come across as selfish with my decisions and actions.
* I think it was from the book No More Mister Nice Guy by Dr. Robert Glover - which I was reading, ironically, with the purpose of being a better person so that mrs.jingle would be more attracted to me :lol!
I think one key step is being honest with yourself. "Making yourself happy" may not - or may - mean "hammered every night and banging strippers". I know for me, there are things I wish I was getting - not just sex - from my marriage, but being honest, my epiphany was really about honestly defining "happy".
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We enjoy plenty of things. We have a very good relationship apart from this. And if she had a physical reason she could have sex, I'd still expect some sexual activity assuming she wasn't paralyzed or something. If I had ED I'd find other ways to please her.
Damn, bro. OK then.
Good luck, brother!
Beat me to it. That was my reaction too.
lordxizor, I really think YOU should try talking to a therapist about this because after reading through this thread and seeing you making comments like the one TAC highlighted above I have a feeling that this kind of entitled attitude you have about her apparently being "expected" to service you regardless of her physical status, to be blunt, kind of comes across as very selfish. Sorry, that's just the impression I'm getting and the more you tell us about how YOU are thinking, the stronger that impression gets. It seems like you feel she owes you something. If you're carrying this kind of attitude in your relationship with her, then I'm not surprised in the least that she won't touch you. Again, I'm not trying to be harsh, but you asked for opinions, and to me I think you might need to work on cleaning up your side of the street before you blame this on her, which is exactly what you're doing here.
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Obligatory "I am 12 and what is this"
But seriously, at age 29, I am woefully unsuccessful in romance and have no idea what I'm talking about, and I don't feel that I can contribute to this discussion as well as some of the wiser, more experienced people here. I have not yet been broken by the world. So I'm just spitballing a little bit. I'm in no position to offer advice to anyone, so I will not do that.
Disclaimer: I am religious and believe the following things as assumptions, so take everything I say with a grain of salt: (i) divorce is not acceptable except in cases of adultery, (ii) sex before marriage is not OK, (iii) artificial birth control is not OK, and (iv) husbands and wives are duty-bound to serve each other. I just want to get that out of the way before saying anything else, because it shapes how I think about things.
Losing attraction for my future spouse is one of my biggest fears and a major reason why I've been cautious about getting involved in romantic entanglements. I often look at older men and their wives and I ask myself, "Would I trade places with them?" Very often, I think to myself, no way in hell. I see hippopotamuses with bob-cuts, and that makes me want to nope out of the marriage path real quick. There is no problem with getting older, getting stretch marks, getting crows feet, but some people really do let themselves go. Call me a sexist pig, but I wouldn't want to be with someone who just puts in no effort to look good. Don't get me wrong, I am far from perfect as is, and I looking pretty homeless right now, and I pretty much view myself as un-dateable at this point (but I'm working on it).
I'm also super fearful of being with a woman who loses her sex drive. That would be agonizing and frustrating to break out of.
In light of my fears, my game plan is to wait until I'm older, am done with grad school, have a ginormous income and a lot of money, and then go for a younger woman. I'm thinking that when I'm 36 I'll go for a 25-yr-old. That way, I'll have a lot to offer, and she's younger and therefore will have a longer sex life, and there isn't much biological pressure to have kids ASAP because fertility issues are not yet present. Preferably someone from a family-oriented community where the women value child-rearing, cooking, cleaning, family, etc.. I know I'm a pig for this, but it results in the best situation for me, so, yeah, sorry not sorry. And she's taken care of--it's a win-win for everyone. I play the long game and I'm overly cautious of bad marriage outcomes.
However, in the event that my wife stops taking care of herself or loses her sex drive... At that point I'd consider which of the following two situations we are in: (1) She's not keeping up because of something about me, and (2) She's not keeping up because of something about her. My first step would be to figure out which situation I'm in. Then, if we are in situation (1), I would try to get her to tell me completely and honestly the things I need to do to improve (probably easier said than done). But if we are in situation (2), the problem is on her end and there is literally nothing I can do. She might just be depressed. She is afflicted by this external thing, just as though she had cancer or some bodily disease. And I would suck it up with her; she's hurting, so therefore I am hurting. For religious reasons, I personally feel I shouldn't leave, and I would think that I am "supposed" to be hurting, too.
Maybe, lordxizor, you are in situation (2), and you are trying different things to fix something that is not in your power to fix, and it is frustrating to see that nothing works. I don't want to presume anything, but maybe she is not happy in life generally, in ways that don't have anything to do with marriage or family issues.
Oh yeah, and a lot of people are filled with ire by the suggestion that expecting sex is reasonable. Surely it's reasonable to an extent. Sometime you just gotta do things you don't wanna do. She wants to go to Cirque de Soleil, so you go. You really don't want to, but it's just what you do. So I sort of think chicks should service their husbands (and vice versa, even though that scenario is more rare), because I believe your job as a spouse is to service your spouse. (That said, I could see how phrasing things so woodenly to your spouse would be a turn-off. I think it should just be implicitly understood on both ends that you do things to make each other happy.)
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Goddamn bro. You make Lordixor seem like the perfect gentleman.
I'm gonna have to read that again after dinner before I comment.
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Goddamn bro. You make Lordixor seem like the perfect gentleman.
I aim to serve :angel:
I also tend to be slightly (read: majorly) hyperbolic on the internet; it's a nice place to test ideas. IRL, I have a more tempered perspective. But lo, the internet.
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I said I was going to end the conversation, but I have one more question for you all.
Do you think that sex is a fundamental part of marriage?
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I would say, rather, that intimacy is a fundamental component of a successful marriage.
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We enjoy plenty of things. We have a very good relationship apart from this. And if she had a physical reason she could have sex, I'd still expect some sexual activity assuming she wasn't paralyzed or something. If I had ED I'd find other ways to please her.
Damn, bro. OK then.
Good luck, brother!
Beat me to it. That was my reaction too.
lordxizor, I really think YOU should try talking to a therapist about this because after reading through this thread and seeing you making comments like the one TAC highlighted above I have a feeling that this kind of entitled attitude you have about her apparently being "expected" to service you regardless of her physical status, to be blunt, kind of comes across as very selfish. Sorry, that's just the impression I'm getting and the more you tell us about how YOU are thinking, the stronger that impression gets. It seems like you feel she owes you something. If you're carrying this kind of attitude in your relationship with her, then I'm not surprised in the least that she won't touch you. Again, I'm not trying to be harsh, but you asked for opinions, and to me I think you might need to work on cleaning up your side of the street before you blame this on her, which is exactly what you're doing here.
I genuinely wanted your opinions, so no worries about being harsh. I'd like to point out when I made that comment, I was picturing a situation in which she was otherwise completely healthy, but normal sex was not an option for some reason. The equivalent of ED where viagra didn't work. If I were in that situation I would absolutely do my best to please her sexually if she wanted it. My expectations would absolutely be extremely low in that scenario, but I don't think it's ridiculous to expect something a few times a year.
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I would say, rather, that intimacy is a fundamental component of a successful marriage.
This guy knows what’s up.
Intimacy is different for different people. If your form of intimacy is sex, then you both need to be on the same page.
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*incredibly chauvinistic post*
I'd break the dtf with the number of reply .gifs this post deserves. Wow. I'm literally at a loss for words.
I would say, rather, that intimacy is a fundamental component of a successful marriage.
This guy knows what’s up.
Intimacy is different for different people. If your form of intimacy is sex, then you both need to be on the same page.
+ 1 to both
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I would say, rather, that intimacy is a fundamental component of a successful marriage.
Fair enough. Intimacy is shown in different ways for different people. To me sex and intimacy are completely tied together.
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*incredibly chauvinistic post*
I'd break the dtf with the number of reply .gifs this post deserves. Wow. I'm literally at a loss for words.
:lol Then save me from my own destruction! Where, specifically, is my error?
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Intimacy is really a connection that only you and your spouse share. But intimacy should never be confused with sex. Sex certainly can mean intimacy. But, if all intimacy means to you is sex, then your relationship is definitely on the clock.
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You know, I think one of the toughest things for me is that my love language is physical touch. You know that new relationship stage where you just always want to be in physical contact with each other and you're all over each other all the time? That desire has never gone away for me. I had never been in a relationship long enough for that stage to end before my wife. My only other long term relationship was with someone who's love language was likely also physical touch. It never crossed my mind that this wasn't how everyone was, because I had never experienced anything else. It's required a serious expectation shift that's been difficult for me to say the least. I literally hold myself back from touching her every chance I get. It just comes so naturally and unconsciously to me. Sex is included in that. It's just a fundamental need for me in order to feel loved, that when she doesn't want it, I literally have to give myself an internal pep talk that it doesn't mean she doesn't love me.
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Intimacy is really a connection that only you and your spouse share. But intimacy should never be confused with sex. Sex certainly can mean intimacy. But, if all intimacy means to you is sex, then your relationship is definitely on the clock.
There is certainly intimacy outside of sex for me. Sex is just the ultimate form of it. If I'm feeling super connected and we've been intimate in other ways, sex is a natural next step to me. If I'm feeling not very connected and we haven't been intimate in other ways, sex is the quickest way to jump start it for me. But I get she doesn't work that way in the latter case and I need to connect with her in other ways first.
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OK..
But seriously, at age 29, I am woefully unsuccessful in romance
No....really?
Disclaimer: I am religious and believe the following things as assumptions, so take everything I say with a grain of salt: (i) divorce is not acceptable except in cases of adultery, (ii) sex before marriage is not OK, (iii) artificial birth control is not OK, and (iv) husbands and wives are duty-bound to serve each other. I just want to get that out of the way before saying anything else, because it shapes how I think about things.
OK, good. Hold that thought...
Losing attraction for my future spouse is one of my biggest fears and a major reason why I've been cautious about getting involved in romantic entanglements. I often look at older men and their wives and I ask myself, "Would I trade places with them?" Very often, I think to myself, no way in hell. I see hippopotamuses with bob-cuts, and that makes me want to nope out of the marriage path real quick. There is no problem with getting older, getting stretch marks, getting crows feet, but some people really do let themselves go. Call me a sexist pig, but I wouldn't want to be with someone who just puts in no effort to look good.
This has to be one of the most fucked up paragraphs I've read in my 17 years on DTF.
Why on earth would you have a fear of losing attraction. What if you marry someone that is smoking hot but turns into a real bitch, but stays hot? Is that OK? You're attracted to her still right?
Why are you worried about hippos? Just look at us here on DTF. Everyone here has married up. No hippos here that I've seen. Hippos are out there for sure but how is that a worry at all? What if you married a wonderful girl who gave you 3 wonderful children. Guess what...birth weight can be difficult to lose. What do you do then? Bodies change as you get older.
As far as trading places with them...nope. You become them, and you'll have a smartass 29 y/o looking at you funny.
I'm also super fearful of being with a woman who loses her sex drive. That would be agonizing and frustrating to break out of.
What happens if it's YOU that loses their sex drive? Huh??
In light of my fears, my game plan is to wait until I'm older, am done with grad school, have a ginormous income and a lot of money, and then go for a younger woman. I'm thinking that when I'm 36 I'll go for a 25-yr-old. That way, I'll have a lot to offer, and she's younger and therefore will have a longer sex life, and there isn't much biological pressure to have kids ASAP because fertility issues are not yet present. Preferably someone from a family-oriented community where the women value child-rearing, cooking, cleaning, family, etc.. I know I'm a pig for this, but it results in the best situation for me, so, yeah, sorry not sorry. And she's taken care of--it's a win-win for everyone. I play the long game and I'm overly cautious of bad marriage outcomes.
Maybe I spoke too soon above....
WTF is this? That sounds like a great plan. You could also open a Playboy Mansion while you're at it.
Sure a 25 y/o girl has a longer sex life, especially compared to her 36 y/o husband, whose sex life shortens by the year.
What happens when she's 45 and you're 56? Let me tell you brother, no one bats 1.000 at that age. Seems like the only long game you're thinking is your 29 y/o dick. And you are a pig for thinking this stuff. As you say sorry not sorry.
You are basically ensuring a bad marriage outcome, as you put it.
And that thought about being religious? I'm calling bullshit on that.
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I was 46 when I got divorced. I generally have no rules (that aren't also laws) when it comes to dating, but it only took me about two weeks to decide that "under 30" was generally off limits to me. I told this story before, but I swear it's true. Talking to a very cute 26 year old at a bar, and in the course of the conversation I said "you look like Susannah Hoffs" (she did). "Who?" "Susannah Hoffs. The Bangles." "Who?" "The Bangles. Walk Like An Egyptian?" "Who?" "What are you, a fucking owl?" Okay, so I didn't say the last one, but the rest, yep.
H2, I don't know that all of that is "sexist" but I do believe most of that is wishful thinking. If you don't get swept off your feet by the love of your life, you're not going to be any less afraid of those things when your older and have "ginormous cash". And if you do get swept off your feet by the love of your life, you're not going to give a SHIT about those things you're worried about.
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I'm just gonna keep posting, because what the hell.
This has all been a very interesting exercise for me the last few days, and I thank you for indulging me and being honest. It's helped me realize that the way I view sex and marriage in general is not as normal for men as I thought it was. I just assumed sex was tremendously important for all men like it is for me. I've read a lot of things on marriage over the last couple years and felt like I was pretty well in line with the way men's needs were described. Obviously everyone is different, but I think there are some generalities for men and women.
I genuinely think that I am not nearly as big an asshole as I apparently came across here at times. It's partly an artifact of me not being able to present the full story, for sake of brevity and privacy, and largely due to my writing style and the way I communicate which I know can sound cold and overly logical much of the time. I struggle with that in person as well.
I think the biggest issue for my wife and I was lack of communication for a long time. I was too self conscious and timid to speak up after our first kid and it just built and built in my mind for over a decade to the point where I was ready to explode with emotion and frustration. And yes, I did feel she owed me something for the years of treating me poorly sexually. She readily admits that she treated me poorly and has apologized (I haven't delved into the details of this at all here and won't). She's making a conscious effort to treat me better and try to meet me somewhere in the middle. But frankly a year ago I didn't want the middle, we had done things her way for a decade and I felt like she owed me a decade of things my way. I've let go of that mindset, but still struggle when it feels like we're not even going to make it a quarter of the way to my way. I also struggle with frustration that the depth of her trauma wasn't explained to me before we got married. I know it's very difficult for people to tell others about this kind of thing, so I'm glad it finally came out at least a vague level. It just would have been nice if I'd have known going in that this was going to be difficult for her.
Anyway... Partly I just needed a place to vent. But again, I do genuinely appreciate the thoughts, advice, and alternate perspectives. It has really made me rethink the way I need to approach this with her.
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Sure a 25 y/o girl has a longer sex life, especially compared to her 36 y/o husband, whose sex life shortens by the year.
What happens when she's 45 and you're 56? Let me tell you brother, no on bats 1.000 at that age. Seems like the only long game you're thinking is your 29 y/o dick. And you are a pig for thinking this stuff. As you say sorry not sorry.
You are basically ensuring a bad marriage outcome, as you put it.
And that thought about being religious? I'm calling bullshit on that.
+1 to all of this.
Stads was far more gracious in his retort than I'm about to be, because I'm literally disgusted there are men like this out there that view a relationship/marriage the way that H describes.
I'll also throw out the rhetorical question of what to ensures that YOU (H) don't become a hippo, or a weathered old grape who grows eyebrows like Abe Bagota, earlobes that sag to your shoulders, balls to your knees, and a boiler you can rest your beer on while sitting upright? Where's the guarantee that you'll keep the will, drive, ability, time and motivation to remain an (apparent) Adonis-like physical specimen? How are you so assured that at 36, you'll be some hotshot big-swingin-dick that 25 year-old hotties are gonna trip over to throw their pussy at you?
That post was the egregious epitome of vanity, arrogance and selfishness. If all that matters is younger sex, just get a subscription to an escort service, because you are beyond shallow, and that would fulfill your needs. I really hope you're intention was to troll the group (though I suspect not), cuz otherwise ... well, I said it to open this paragraph.
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I'm just gonna keep posting, because what the hell.
This has all been a very interesting exercise for me the last few days, and I thank you for indulging me and being honest. It's helped me realize that the way I view sex and marriage in general is not as normal for men as I thought it was.
Thank you for sharing your story, and look, we all like having sex. There's nothing wrong with you wanting it, but you're married to another person, not Stacy the robot.
I genuinely think that I am not nearly as big an asshole as I apparently came across here at times. It's partly an artifact of me not being able to present the full story, for sake of brevity and privacy, and largely due to my writing style and the way I communicate which I know can sound cold and overly logical much of the time. I struggle with that in person as well.
I am sure you are not, and you wrote brutally honest, but you took the responses and didn't get defensive, so respect for that. And yes, I think we're all aware we don't have the full story.
Anyway... Partly I just needed a place to vent. But again, I do genuinely appreciate the thoughts, advice, and alternate perspectives. It has really made me rethink the way I need to approach this with her.
Nothing wrong with venting. Lots of experience between everyone here. And for me, I treat all conversations here like a couple of dudes sharing some beers and talking.
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I'll also throw out the rhetorical question of what to ensures that YOU (H) don't become a hippo, or a weathered old grape who grows eyebrows like Abe Bagota, earlobes that sag to your shoulders, balls to your knees, and a boiler you can rest your beer on while sitting upright? Where's the guarantee that you'll keep the will, drive, ability, time and motivation to remain an (apparent) Adonis-like physical specimen? How are you so assured that at 36, you'll be some hotshot big-swingin-dick that 25 year-old hotties are gonna trip over to throw their pussy at you?
So wait....my balls hanging to my knees is a bad thing??
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I'm just gonna keep posting, because what the hell.
This has all been a very interesting exercise for me the last few days, and I thank you for indulging me and being honest. It's helped me realize that the way I view sex and marriage in general is not as normal for men as I thought it was.
Thank you for sharing your story, and look, we all like having sex. There's nothing wrong with you wanting it, but you're married to another person, not Stacy the robot.
Of course I never thought she was a robot, nor did I treat her like one. But I think I was operating under a couple of false assumptions. One being that sex is good, all the time, which for me it is. For her, this is not true, which I did not know and still don't fully understand. Second that her giving me sex is no different than me running an errand for her or doing some other act of service for her to make her feel loved. I viewed them both as just nice things we're supposed to do for our spouses to make them feel loved. I would never say "I'm not in the mood" to run an errand for her, so I felt her saying the same thing to me was incredibly selfish. It's hard to shift my whole mindset on this, and to her credit she's trying to do her part too. Again, it's just frustrating that where we end up for now is going to likely be well short of my already recalibrated expectations.
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I'm just gonna keep posting, because what the hell.
This has all been a very interesting exercise for me the last few days, and I thank you for indulging me and being honest. It's helped me realize that the way I view sex and marriage in general is not as normal for men as I thought it was.
Thank you for sharing your story, and look, we all like having sex. There's nothing wrong with you wanting it, but you're married to another person, not Stacy the robot.
Of course I never thought she was a robot, nor did I treat her like one. But I think I was operating under a couple of false assumptions. One being that sex is good, all the time, which for me it is. For her, this is not true, which I did not know and still don't fully understand. Second that her giving me sex is no different than me running an errand for her or doing some other act of service for her to make her feel loved. I viewed them both as just nice things we're supposed to do for our spouses to make them feel loved. I would never say "I'm not in the mood" to run an errand for her, so I felt her saying the same thing to me was incredibly selfish. It's hard to shift my whole mindset on this, and to her credit she's trying to do her part too. Again, it's just frustrating that where we end up for now is going to likely be well short of my already recalibrated expectations.
It IS different though.
Hey, marriage ain't always easy. And again, we're just talking. I don't want to comment further on another guy's marriage.
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I'm just gonna keep posting, because what the hell.
This has all been a very interesting exercise for me the last few days, and I thank you for indulging me and being honest. It's helped me realize that the way I view sex and marriage in general is not as normal for men as I thought it was.
Thank you for sharing your story, and look, we all like having sex. There's nothing wrong with you wanting it, but you're married to another person, not Stacy the robot.
Of course I never thought she was a robot, nor did I treat her like one. But I think I was operating under a couple of false assumptions. One being that sex is good, all the time, which for me it is. For her, this is not true, which I did not know and still don't fully understand. Second that her giving me sex is no different than me running an errand for her or doing some other act of service for her to make her feel loved. I viewed them both as just nice things we're supposed to do for our spouses to make them feel loved. I would never say "I'm not in the mood" to run an errand for her, so I felt her saying the same thing to me was incredibly selfish. It's hard to shift my whole mindset on this, and to her credit she's trying to do her part too. Again, it's just frustrating that where we end up for now is going to likely be well short of my already recalibrated expectations.
It IS different though.
Yeah, I understand that now, which is why I said it was a false assumption previously. Ultimately it doesn't matter how much I think sex is great, necessary, deserved, important, etc. If she doesn't think the same way there's nothing I can do about that. I have stated my thoughts and feelings on it and she's coming around a bit, but it will always be different for her than it is for me. My goal for us now is to keep it as an open dialog where we always feel safe to talk to each other about it. We ignored the issue for over a decade and it nearly broke us.
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My goal for us now is to keep it as an open dialog where we always feel safe to talk to each other about it.
Don't have much to add but I wanted to to say that was very well said and I think that's the best thing you guys can do.
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The other thought I had that I think explains the way I came across at the beginning of this topic is that I get almost panicky about all of this. Again, without going into too much detail, she treated me very poorly sexually for a long time. Anytime I feel things slipping back to that way again, I panic. I literally had panic attacks a year ago fearing that things had to go back to how they were before after I dredged stuff up for her. I don't want to use the word trauma, because her trauma is much worse than mine (from the little I understand of it), but for lack of a better word, it was traumatic to be treated as if I didn't matter for so long. Whenever I get in that state I get hyper focused on it and, again, feel panicky and desperate about it. That's gotten a lot better over the last year.
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When Tim is the voice of reason someone should check hell. I think it froze over.
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@TAC, Stadler, Jingleboy:
I'm trying to be level-headed here. I'm open to being proven wrong. Insults do not prove me wrong. Condemnation does not prove me wrong. Generally, I'm looking for a tight, logical argument, pointing out exactly why what I said is "chauvinistic." I understand that chauvinism is the belief that men are superior to women. I do not believe that. I believe we are entitled to the same natural rights. I think people should try to be the best version of themselves, and good marriage will involve both parties helping each other do just that. So, I need you to identify for me exactly where I am saying something chauvinistic.
But seriously, at age 29, I am woefully unsuccessful in romance
No....really?
Yeah, really. I had a few relationships in my mid-20s, but they didn't work out. One case was bad chemistry (we couldn't talk), one case was bad circumstances (she was about 10 years older and wanted to settle soon), and one case was, to be frank, a failure because we were both losers. She had alcohol and mental problems, and I had no ambition in life. I've had a few years to think about this, and I do believe that I've been a loser for most of my adult life. I do think I'm turning it around, though, and am on a very good upward trajectory.
Disclaimer: I am religious and believe the following things as assumptions, so take everything I say with a grain of salt: (i) divorce is not acceptable except in cases of adultery, (ii) sex before marriage is not OK, (iii) artificial birth control is not OK, and (iv) husbands and wives are duty-bound to serve each other. I just want to get that out of the way before saying anything else, because it shapes how I think about things.
OK, good. Hold that thought...
I do mean that stuff.
Losing attraction for my future spouse is one of my biggest fears and a major reason why I've been cautious about getting involved in romantic entanglements. I often look at older men and their wives and I ask myself, "Would I trade places with them?" Very often, I think to myself, no way in hell. I see hippopotamuses with bob-cuts, and that makes me want to nope out of the marriage path real quick. There is no problem with getting older, getting stretch marks, getting crows feet, but some people really do let themselves go. Call me a sexist pig, but I wouldn't want to be with someone who just puts in no effort to look good.
This has to be one of the most fucked up paragraphs I've read in my 17 years on DTF.
Thanks.
Why on earth would you have a fear of losing attraction. What if you marry someone that is smoking hot but turns into a real bitch, but stays hot? Is that OK? You're attracted to her still right?
Just because I have a fear of losing attraction doesn't mean I also have other fears, like those you brought up.
Why are you worried about hippos? Just look at us here on DTF. Everyone here has married up. No hippos here that I've seen. Hippos are out there for sure but how is that a worry at all? What if you married a wonderful girl who gave you 3 wonderful children. Guess what...birth weight can be difficult to lose. What do you do then? Bodies change as you get older.
As for DTF mens' wives, I have no clue what anyone looks like. I'm just talking about what I have seen in the world around me. As for bodies changing, I acknowledge and appreciate that. They can also fluctuate, too, within a given year.
As far as trading places with them...nope. You become them, and you'll have a smartass 29 y/o looking at you funny.
Thanks? But surely, you'd recognize that it's good to look at people further along than you and learn from mistakes they've made, and see what they have in their life that you wouldn't want in yours, be it posture problems or hippo wives.
I'm also super fearful of being with a woman who loses her sex drive. That would be agonizing and frustrating to break out of.
What happens if it's YOU that loses their sex drive? Huh??
Sure, I'm fearful of that, too. But I can be fearful of both things, can't I?
In light of my fears, my game plan is to wait until I'm older, am done with grad school, have a ginormous income and a lot of money, and then go for a younger woman. I'm thinking that when I'm 36 I'll go for a 25-yr-old. That way, I'll have a lot to offer, and she's younger and therefore will have a longer sex life, and there isn't much biological pressure to have kids ASAP because fertility issues are not yet present. Preferably someone from a family-oriented community where the women value child-rearing, cooking, cleaning, family, etc.. I know I'm a pig for this, but it results in the best situation for me, so, yeah, sorry not sorry. And she's taken care of--it's a win-win for everyone. I play the long game and I'm overly cautious of bad marriage outcomes.
Maybe I spoke too soon above....
WTF is this? That sounds like a great plan. You could also open a Playboy Mansion while you're at it.
Where is that coming from? I am not promiscuous at all and have no desire to be. I have no interest in "plate spinning" or whatever the red pill people talk about. I don't want to build a harem, jeez. I'm interested in optimizing the odds of a happy marriage. And a happy marriage for me would involve ready, willing sex. If I had reason to think that girl X wouldn't readily have sex with me, I wouldn't marry X. Doesn't that sound reasonable?
Sure a 25 y/o girl has a longer sex life, especially compared to her 36 y/o husband, whose sex life shortens by the year.
I understand women have a tighter fertility window. Men experience a decline in fertility, but women become literally infertile. There are increased risks from old sperm, but the risks aren't nearly as severe as old eggs. So I do understand that there is a minor, minor cost to waiting. But I think the pros outweigh this con here.
What happens when she's 45 and you're 56? Let me tell you brother, no one bats 1.000 at that age.
I'll last longer, I guess. *shrugs*
Seems like the only long game you're thinking is your 29 y/o dick. And you are a pig for thinking this stuff. As you say sorry not sorry.
You are basically ensuring a bad marriage outcome, as you put it.
Why, exactly, is that? What exactly is going to be the problem with my plan as I have described it? Do you have a better plan for optimizing success or for avoiding those pitfalls I said I was afraid of?
And that thought about being religious? I'm calling bullshit on that.
You don't get to tell me that. I decide that.
I was 46 when I got divorced. I generally have no rules (that aren't also laws) when it comes to dating, but it only took me about two weeks to decide that "under 30" was generally off limits to me. I told this story before, but I swear it's true. Talking to a very cute 26 year old at a bar, and in the course of the conversation I said "you look like Susannah Hoffs" (she did). "Who?" "Susannah Hoffs. The Bangles." "Who?" "The Bangles. Walk Like An Egyptian?" "Who?" "What are you, a fucking owl?" Okay, so I didn't say the last one, but the rest, yep.
I wouldn't date under 30 if I were 46, either, man. 36 to 25 is a fair distance though, wouldn't you think?
H2, I don't know that all of that is "sexist" but I do believe most of that is wishful thinking. If you don't get swept off your feet by the love of your life, you're not going to be any less afraid of those things when your older and have "ginormous cash". And if you do get swept off your feet by the love of your life, you're not going to give a SHIT about those things you're worried about.
Thanks, I appreciate your words of wisdom. In the end, the latter circumstance will probably be what happens and I won't make a rational decision.
*quoting TAC*
+1 to all of this.
Stads was far more gracious in his retort than I'm about to be, because I'm literally disgusted there are men like this out there that view a relationship/marriage the way that H describes.
OK, let me hear SPECIFICALLY what the disgusting part is, and why. Your reply to me, if I may be forthright, is an emotional outburst of disgust, but it is not a rational critique. I'm just not going to be swayed by emotional outbursts. Please come down to my level and give me a cold, rational critique of why my reasoning is flawed.
I'll also throw out the rhetorical question of what to ensures that YOU (H) don't become a hippo, or a weathered old grape who grows eyebrows like Abe Bagota, earlobes that sag to your shoulders, balls to your knees, and a boiler you can rest your beer on while sitting upright? Where's the guarantee that you'll keep the will, drive, ability, time and motivation to remain an (apparent) Adonis-like physical specimen? How are you so assured that at 36, you'll be some hotshot big-swingin-dick that 25 year-old hotties are gonna trip over to throw their pussy at you?
OK, what I'm gonna say is gonna trigger you even more, but I don't think a man's looks matter as much as a woman's. I think the man's income is proportional to the woman's looks. I'm sorry, this is just what I see! Reality is often disappointing. I'm not 100% sure that "at 36, [I'll] be some hotshot big-swingin-dick that 25 year-old hotties are gonna trip over to throw their pussy at [me]." But waiting until that time is the best chance I have, I think, at success. I do believe in myself. So I'll roll the dice. Assume the worst--I am a 2/10 neckbeard who's as good-looking as I'll ever get. Do you think I have a better strategy available to me? Why shouldn't I bide my time and build my assets so I can offer something better?
That post was the egregious epitome of vanity, arrogance and selfishness. If all that matters is younger sex, just get a subscription to an escort service, because you are beyond shallow, and that would fulfill your needs. I really hope you're intention was to troll the group (though I suspect not), cuz otherwise ... well, I said it to open this paragraph.
Hear me out. The original problem, as I saw it, was: how, as a man, do you find yourself in a marriage where you have a wife who voluntarily wants to please you sexually? Most men don't want to be in a situation where their wives don't try to look good and refuse sex. So how do you avoid that? I'm not claiming to know, but the paradigm I've adopted for myself is that I have to offer as much as possible, and, as an average-looking, somewhat short, dopey guy like me, that requires (but of course is not limited to) having a sizable income, and in my case, that means waiting a few years. Trust me, I think there are really important things besides that: Integrity. Having values. Being responsible. Dressing well. Staying fit. Etc.. But no matter how hard I try, and for most guys, unless they are male models or something, there is a limit to how much you can really improve yourself, and I believe a man can make up for those hard limits by improving his income. At least for myself, this is what I see. Bro, you don't know this, but I live in the cheapest apartment in town, I have no car, I have a job that pays right above poverty level. Do you think chicks at 29 want to date a 29-year-old with no car, and no house, and who lives in an apartment where the roof leaks every time it rains? Imagine the best case scenario for me, where I am a literal saint. Still I'm not gonna pull anyone.
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H2,..
I had to reread your responses a couple of times..
I didn't mean to offend you by calling bullshit on your religion. It's just that after you wrote that, you wrote some ....maybe chauvinistic isn't the right word...I think it fits..but certainly sexist at worst.
My point about the DTF WAGS is that you've shared your thoughts with us. We are a bunch of "everymen". We're proof that hippos are not the norm.
My point about the Playboy Mansion is that your grand plan is great. It's what most guys dream of. Gonna have a big house, big job, young wife, etc... Yeah, and then we wake up.
I'm not sure where these attitudes on sex are coming from. Sex is so far down the list of what makes a successful marriage.
And your preoccupation with how a woman may look as they age or what their sex drive will be like...it's ridiculous. I get it. No one wants to be in a sexless marriage with a fat cow. But to have these as conscious thoughts is just extremely pessimistic and depressing. It's like you're expecting failure.
How about you live your life, and if you meet a girl you really like, just fucking go with it. Life is full of obstacles that you can't control. Don't place any unnecessary ones of your own.
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Ah, what you're saying is eminently reasonable. Thanks, TAC. I do have some paranoia and preoccupation with some of these things, so thanks for calling me out on it. Personally, things are not going well in the dating department, and they really haven't ever gone well, so I find it easy to turn to "success is the best revenge" types of narratives to motivate myself to be better. I never want to give up and stop believing in myself; I have a weird mixture of very high self-esteem and self-reliance with the belief that others perceive me as literal scum, so a big motivation for me is proving others wrong. Sometimes that manifests in ridiculous ideas.
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I'll give a more fully versed out response in the morning, but Tim nailed it.
I'm not sure where these attitudes on sex are coming from. Sex is so far down the list of what makes a successful marriage.
H, you have a very - I can't even think of the right adjective ... strange? distorted? - view of what matters in a relationship and marriage. And also an issue with self esteem and your beliefs of what matters to women. I was a fat-fuck, making less than $30k a year 2-months into my first full-time job, living at my aunt and uncle's when I met mrs.jingle on a blind date setup by jingle.mom. I can't help but think only thing preventing your lack of ability to form relationships is yourself.
More tomorrow to address some of your other points in your response to me.
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I met mrs.jingle on a blind date setup by jingle.mom.
They have arranged marriages in Canada?? :lol
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I met mrs.jingle on a blind date setup by jingle.mom.
They have arranged marriages in Canada??
Apparently! mrs.jingle taught at the same school as jingle.mom.
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More tomorrow to address some of your other points in your response to me.
While you're at it, maybe you can debunk another firmly held belief of mine, which is that people shouldn't get married unless they are financially ready to support kids. (Because unintended pregnancies are always a risk.) And that means being in a position to provide for them fully, especially saving for education. I know I have a lot of ridiculously wooden rules. But I'm also frustrated that Catholicism encourages young broke people to hook up, and then they don't provide the best to their kids, and that infuriates me. If only people were more patient! If only patience were taught as a virtue in this context!
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I would say, rather, that intimacy is a fundamental component of a successful marriage.
Fair enough. Intimacy is shown in different ways for different people. To me sex and intimacy are completely tied together.
I can see that, and it's not unreasonable. The trick is having a partner who's charmed by that. While it's possible to have intimacy without sex, it's impossible, by it's very nature, to have sex without some level of intimacy. Both participants must feel the draw to that intimacy or resentments, the breaking of trust (if you will) can creep into a relationship over this issue.
My goal for us now is to keep it as an open dialog where we always feel safe to talk to each other about it. We ignored the issue for over a decade and it nearly broke us.
Well said. This is all one can do, me thinks.
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I'm not going to create quote pyramids, lest this get to be a brutally difficult post.
First, by the purest definition of "chauvinism", you're right. You don't blatantly or outright portray the belief of superiority over women. However, since you are so pragmatic, one definition I found was "a male who patronizes, disparages, or otherwise denigrates females in the belief that they are inferior to males and thus deserving of less than equal treatment or benefit." So let's just scratch that last part, and call it 'close enough'. Only you know if you believe (consciously or otherwise) if women are inferior, but your initial post certainly (to me) is well characterized by the first part of this definition. I'll also say that the only thing I agreed with is how you opened your post .... "have no idea what I'm talking about". That part is obvious to anyone who read the whole post.
What disgusts me? For starters, your focus is solely on the physical and material aspects of a relationship - appearance, sex life, finances - as if those are the only things that matter in a relationship/marriage. Kid, until you realize that emotional connection, spirituality, companionship, parenting (should you ever have kids), communication, friendship etc... far outweigh whether you're driving a 5-series, have a 2000 sq ft home, getting a hummer monthly, or whether your partner fits into a size 4 for the rest of your life, you'll have nothing but superficial and meaningless relationships - hence my comment of your shallowness.
You posts screams that YOU should be your partners top priority. To hell with her life, to hell with her career, kids, friends, interests, wants, needs, goals, etc... It's all about you - taking care of herself so that you're attracted to her; keeping up her sex drive so your needs are met. And then suggest that if "the problem" (which is really YOUR problem) is on her end ... that it might be depression if she were not to meet your needs/expectations? Oh, but you'd be so gracious as to "suck it up" with her if it were an illness like cancer. You then state that "I personally feel I shouldn't leave" ... wow, that only took 4 paragraphs for you to come off your "religious" standard and belief that "divorce is not acceptable except in cases of adultery".* Again, right up to the border of chauvinism.
What else ... "I sort of think chicks should service their husbands"... does cross the border of even your definition of chauvinism. Just because you quickly throw in the comment of 'vice versa' doesn't mean shit when "your" (ie, H's) job of servicing your partner is still you getting your sexual fulfillment and needs addressed. "your your job as a spouse is to service your spouse" is a subtle (and perhaps subconscious) use of "your". Not "the job of a spouse", but "your job" ... meaning, "her job". Though I've no doubt you'll try to step that comment back, sometimes you just can't put the toothpaste back in the tube.
Moving on .... "women value child-rearing, cooking, cleaning, family, etc ". Good luck with finding June Cleaver. Fuck man, were you raised in the 50s? You have a very misguided view of what (most) women want. You write as if you're looking for the prototypical "barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen" wife. You're the man ... you work all day to bring home the bacon while your spouse stays at home to fry it, and "service" your needs (sexual or otherwise)? Again ... right up to the border of chauvinism, and now you've got a couple of toes across it.
Lastly, you set us all up with the veil of being "religious". I absolutely detest when people hide behind the auspice of "religion" to defend/justify/validate bad beliefs or behaviour, or like religion makes it all ok and acceptable. Isis is religious too, does that justify their beliefs? But let's leave that for another discussion.
That about sums up why I'm disgusted with men that hold these kinds of beliefs. Is that a cold (again, pretty apt word for you to chose to use) rational enough critique for you?
I'll tackle the rest of your response to me later. I need to clear my head now.
*I suspect this is where/why Tim calls bullshit on your religiousness. In the span of 4 paragraphs, you move from 'unacceptable' to 'I should stay'. If you really truly do religiously believe that divorce is unacceptable except in the case of adultery, you'd have said 'I will/would stay'.
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For better or worse you have a knack for bringing me back to this place, H2.
Some thoughts on what you’ve been writing here. Firstly, you sometimes ask where you’re going “wrong” in your thinking, but with a theme like this it’s not really a matter of right or wrong. People love and are loved in different ways and you have to find the arrangement that best works for you. That said, some of the things you’re writing provoke obvious counter arguments.
First and foremost, your last point about how poor people should be discouraged from having children. If history had done this it would have robbed me of many of my favourite artists from Dostoevsky to Beethoven to Michelangelo. Many of the mathematical formulae that now put men in space or cure illnesses were discovered by people born into literal slums. My 2 favourite people in the world, myself and my wife, would not exist if poor people were discouraged from procreation. Money is not necessary to produce intelligent, productive people. I’ll take a world of Edgar Allen Poes and Srinivasa Ramanujans over Eric and Don Jr.
Sit down a minute because I am now going to pass around some tattered old black and white photographs. My father was from a lower-middle class family in the north of England. My mother was from a dirt-poor working class family; 5 sisters, 1 brother. They married when my dad was 21 and my mother was 19. The wedding dress was borrowed, you see how it’s too big on my mother. They had used their meagre budget to buy the wedding rings - cheap 9 carat gold that would never leave their fingers this side of the soil. Their first ‘apartment’ as husband and wife was a fetid shithole above the small shop my dad was renting. My brother was born into it. Dad was a greengrocer; my mother was a housewife for the first 20 years and then became a teacher of special needs children.
They were married for 42 years up until my father’s death from cancer in 2014. Like you (H2), I studied philosophy at university. I also have a deep passion for literature. I’ve read all the great words about love, from Goethe to Shakespeare to Pasternak to Tolstoy. I’ve also read all the cold intellectualization of love that philosophers bother themselves with; Aquinas, Augustine, Nietzsche, all the sexually dysfunctional neurotics. A lot of it is intellectually stimulating, but none of it comes as close – for myself and myself alone – to showing what true love is as my mother helping my father – her soulmate - face his death. For the last 2 years of his life he was in a very bad way, physically and psychologically. This kind, intelligent, proud man was reduced to a squalid and imbecilic embarrassment to himself (never to us); shitting himself in front of the nurses, unable to form proper thoughts because his brain was full of cancer, confined to a wheelchair and having to be pushed around by his 2 sons even though he himself was still barely 60 years old and just 10 years earlier had been a keen runner and swimmer. My mother’s heart was broken to see her husband like this, but nothing she ever did was out of pity. Shortly before his death my dad asked her for 2 things, one of which he realized she could not promise but the other she could. He wanted to die in his home (not in hospital), and he wanted to go in my mother’s arms. My mother made sure both happened. One of the last lucid conversations I had with my dad was him (needlessly) telling my brother and I to make sure my mother died in our arms, since he wouldn’t be around to do it for her.
That to me is love, H2. It’s very difficult to describe, it can really only be witnessed and, hopefully, felt (I have been extremely fortunate to meet and marry my own soulmate). What I saw in my parents as they helped each other through their own distinct kinds of distress (him fear and grief at the impending separation, her the heartbreak of watching the man she loved be painfully broken down) was a kind of extraordinary strength. It’s a strength that I think of as ‘love’. It can do things which under ‘normal’ circumstances seem impossible. It’s nowhere near the same level as my mother but I was very afraid in the days up to the funeral that I would be too emotional to deliver my speech, but actually when I went up there and saw his coffin a weird calmness came over me and I spoke perfectly calmly. That too, I think, was the odd strength of love kicking in.
You’re familiar I suppose with the film Good Will Hunting, the scene where Robin Williams sits on the bench with Matt Damon and tries to show him the difference between experience and ‘intellect’:
“If I asked you about love, you'd probably quote me a sonnet, but you've never looked at a woman and been totally vulnerable. Known someone that could level you with her eyes. Feeling like God put an angel on Earth just for you, who could rescue you from the depths of hell. And you wouldn't know what it's like to be her angel, to have that love for her be there forever. Through anything. Through cancer. And you wouldn't know about sleeping and sitting up in a hospital room for two months, holding her hand, because the doctors could see in your eyes that the terms ‘visiting hours’ don't apply to you”.
People like Will Hunting, who are very limited in their experience of the world, sometimes take a kind of defensive ‘solace’ in what they imagine to be a ‘cold’, rational, intellectual plane. I suspect you do this too. I remember our (mine and yours, H2) chat in the P/R thread where you said that you’re an "ideologue". You’re also a fairly radicalised one in my opinion, I’ve told you before that I think you have the potentially dangerous combination of extreme unwarranted self-confidence and a limited understanding of the real world.
For that reason, if you’re sincere about wanting real advice and input into your arguments (I have less than zero interest in engaging in an ‘intellectual’ debate and ‘testing ideas’, I left that stuff back where it belongs, the self-serious lecture halls of university), then here is what I have to offer: scale back the extent to which you try to intellectualise things. In P/R you said you’re an ideologue, yet ideology should be founded upon a wealth of experience and wisdom, which you don’t seem to have. You’re going about things backwards. Here you have laid out what you admit are “ridiculously wooden” rules for relationships, but of what use are rules for a ‘game’ you haven’t even played yet? Fall in love first and then see how long your ‘rules’ hold out. You said you’re religious, and in that fine tradition you seem more concerned with establishing rules and moral laws that other people should live by, but not you (did I understand you correctly, you’re a virgin? You said sex before marriage isn’t acceptable). I don’t know which religion you subscribe to (don’t tell me because it doesn’t matter) but you seem to have a very soulless and self-serving attitude to other people. My advice to you hasn’t changed since our chat in P/R about America and Iran: focus less on constructing an abstract world view, divorced of history and experience, and try to engage with the real world on its level, i.e. a chaotic, unpredictable, ungovernable, wonderful mystery. The things you're reading aren't shaping you into a wise young man so leave it behind, live a while, go travel the world for a year or something like that, experience some of these things you so far only write about.
Peace.
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Not to pile on, H2, but one other aspect struck me: "that's what I see". It's not about what you "see", because what you see is inherently biased. Even if you have 100 friends that are married and every one of them is, actually, in a relationship where the "chick services the man", or "the woman values child-rearing", it's not indicative. One, you can have those ASPECTS of a relationship without it being the defining characteristic of the relationship. My wife "values child-rearing". She has three kids and is a step mom to mine. Guess what, though; I value child-rearing too. It was the one thing that "got me" to remarry, is a stable family life for my kid (and, hubris, alert, I thought I could bring some stability to her kids' life; I'm blessed that two of the three - the oldest - have said (sober, haha) that I'm more of a father than they've ever had. LITERALLY the highest complement I've ever been paid in my life). But neither of us are DEFINED by that. It's a part of who we are.
There are times when she does "serve" me. And there are times when I serve her. We are (or we aspire to be) a team. She does what I can't do, and I do what she can't. We try to make each other better, more complete. Sure, we have our problems and (hopefully) we work through them, but this is not a plan. This is not your annual objectives sheet at work, nor is it a syllabus for a class you're taking. It's LIFE. She's going to have her days, you're going to have yours, and they're not all going to be a scene out of a movie. You're not always going to have the answers. She's not always going to tell you. Fuck, you may not even have the QUESTIONS sometimes. But it is what it is. You are two lives intertwined, full and complete on their own, but growing in synergy - or not, sometimes - together.
I'm a "man plans, God laughs" sort of guy to begin with, and even then, getting married told me that "laughs" is often an understatement. ;) Now, maybe you'll find someone that is content with being your submissive (I don't mean that in a sexual way); and if that works for you and her, so be it. Life is full of choices. But I think you're cheating yourself (and her) from the possibilities.
EDIT: Love Dave's post; I have that in my family. My dad, stricken with debilitating arthritis at a young age (as a young boy I would have to help dress my dad for work; how humbling for him) and now my mom with Alzheimer's... they have been married for 57 years this year; the four days my mom spent in the hospital late in December was the first time they didn't share a bed since the 1990's AT LEAST. My dad - my hero, in all ways - has admitted to being scared ONCE in my entire 53 years, and that was during that hospital stay when we weren't 100% sure she was coming home.
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:corn
jingle.boy epic post
(https://2.bp.blogspot.com/_UNvwuPPXlVU/S10bd2xfBYI/AAAAAAAACpc/WRXq9mQraTg/s280/nail+hammer.jpg)
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Keep it coming, all; I'm listening.
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your focus is solely on the physical and material aspects of a relationship - appearance, sex life, finances
Those are just the things we've been talking about, and so those are the things I chose to write about, but I'm also concerned about deeper things--shared meaning, shared suffering, shared living. Don't me wrong, I think things like sex life and finance matter. How could they not? But they matter just as much as other things matter.
You posts screams that YOU should be your partners top priority. To hell with her life, to hell with her career, kids, friends, interests, wants, needs, goals, etc...
In all my relationships, I want to help the other person be the fullest version of themselves and to be able to pursue their dreams. I want what she wants. If she wants a career, great. That said, I wouldn't sign a binding contract with someone who doesn't value a regular healthy sex life. Why would I?
What else ... "I sort of think chicks should service their husbands"... does cross the border of even your definition of chauvinism. Just because you quickly throw in the comment of 'vice versa' doesn't mean shit
Maybe you just don't like the way I phrased things. You are reading chauvinism in between the lines, perhaps I think because you have this preconceived idea of who I am. I think spouses should service their spouses. How is that chauvinistic? And that logically entails that wives should service their husbands.
*wisdom*
Thanks. You're a great writer, and your stories conjure up vivid images in the imagination, which I know for you and your family were a lived reality. I'll try to experience more things. Without experience, though, all I have to go off of are principles, and so, *for now*, my principles are what I have to guide my actions. What else can I do? But I'm open to being proven wrong by time. PS Haven't seen Good Will Hunting, but you've sold it for me.
First and foremost, your last point about how poor people should be discouraged from having children. If history had done this it would have robbed me of many of my favourite artists from Dostoevsky to Beethoven to Michelangelo.
I can't resist the temptation to argue against you here. Just because it turns out that some decisions turn out to have positive consequences does not make the unwise decisions into wise ones. What am I supposed to do with the information that poor couples have successful kids? Is that supposed to change my own decision procedure?
*wisdom*
I agree whole-heartedly with your perspective here, and I feel that you are representing my own beliefs in a much more likable, nuanced way. I think I just have a bad habit of phrasing things in brutally ideological ways.
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this is the internet...everyone has opinions. And don't we all just feel compelled to share them.
I like "hippos" which I assume refers to "bigger women". It's actually what attracts me. Big Time.
I break the little ones. (smirk) I need me a Harley. Big chromy parts and curvy fenders. Them little racing bikes are wound too tight....**TWANG** she broken.
oh...and bosk because I didn't feel like reading all thirteen pages...how did your NBA scrap turn out? Some suspensions?
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H2, since you haven't seen it, at least watch this scene. It's most of what I'm talking about:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRG2jlQWCsY
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But seriously, at age 29, I am woefully unsuccessful in romance and have no idea what I'm talking about, and I don't feel that I can contribute to this discussion as well as some of the wiser, more experienced people here. I have not yet been broken by the world.
I think this opening statement kind of sets the pace for having such a distorted view on relationships. You have no experience so you have no idea other than a dream of landing a hot young chick that will please you as you age.
The reality is, unless you are super rich and don't mind buying such a woman (a la Trump and Melania, who I'm sure isn't doing the pleasuring part anymore), this just flat out does not exist.
Also, I don't see how your religious views align at all with your relationship views. If no sex before marriage is what you want to do, that's cool, but you are going to really find it even more difficult to be with happy sexual relationship if you have no idea what sex is even like so being so critical of it all is a very bad way to think about this.
I like "hippos" which I assume refers to "bigger women". It's actually what attracts me. Big Time.
I mean, there's a certain point where the larger women are too large for me, but generally, I do like thick girls too. The jokes about large girls giving great head seems to be true from my experience :rollin but seriously, as I get older and older, the personality gets more and more important than size or looks. Beauty fades but personality stays, that's what you need to match with for the long term. You'd learn this if you are in a long term relationship.
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H2, what most of us see is what you articulated first. That's what is really on your mind with the relationship. What most of us guys who have been married a long time are saying that while those are important, there are other key factors to a relationship that matters to the other in the relationship. Your focus seems to be on your needs instead of the other's needs. I've learned over the 26 years of marriage that if I focus on my wife's needs, she will pay attention to your needs.
If the other person in the relationship is unhappy, you will be unhappy.
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Reading this thread with Mrs. P has been one of the highlights of my week. Thanks to everyone involved, and I mean that sincerely!
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I've learned over the 26 years of marriage that if I focus on my wife's needs, she will pay attention to your needs.
If the other person in the relationship is unhappy, you will be unhappy.
So, I think I was really terrible at explaining things in the beginning, and came across as demanding or whatever, but this statement above is essentially what my issue was. I focused on sex, because I thought you all could relate to more and is easier to explain. But it's about more than that.
I don't feel at all like these statements apply to me. For 11 years I felt like I had been pouring my heart and soul into meeting her needs, but felt l was getting just the bare minimum in return from her. There seemed to be minimal effort on her part to meet my needs, sexually and otherwise. If it was important to her I made it important to me. If I said it was important to me, she dug in her heels and refused to budge, and she readily admits this. I was unhappy, but she never expressed anything but happiness in our marriage, even when we started being more open about stuff.
Things have been better the last year, but still far short of me feeling like "if I focus on my wife's needs, she will pay attention to my needs" is completely accurate for us. I know it doesn't need to be an even exchange of one to one acts of service toward each other, but two years ago I would say it was closer to 30 to one me doing things for her and her doing things for me.
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Hey, we all all have the need for sex. It's a release of tension but also a way of showing we care. We also have to look at the other's needs in the relationship. Maybe sex isn't priority because there is something else weighing that's taking up more of their time. So the focus should be what is needed for the other's need at that moment.
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I've learned over the 26 years of marriage that if I focus on my wife's needs, she will pay attention to your needs.
If the other person in the relationship is unhappy, you will be unhappy.
So, I think I was really terrible at explaining things in the beginning, and came across as demanding or whatever, but this statement above is essentially what my issue was. I focused on sex, because I thought you all could relate to more and is easier to explain. But it's about more than that.
I don't feel at all like these statements apply to me. For 11 years I felt like I had been pouring my heart and soul into meeting her needs, but felt l was getting just the bare minimum in return from her. There seemed to be minimal effort on her part to meet my needs, sexually and otherwise. If it was important to her I made it important to me. If I said it was important to me, she dug in her heels and refused to budge, and she readily admits this. I was unhappy, but she never expressed anything but happiness in our marriage, even when we started being more open about stuff.
Things have been better the last year, but still far short of me feeling like "if I focus on my wife's needs, she will pay attention to my needs" is completely accurate for us. I know it doesn't need to be an even exchange of one to one acts of service toward each other, but two years ago I would say it was closer to 30 to one me doing things for her and her doing things for me.
This is why you need to nudge her to counseling. There is underlining issues. Didn't you say you had a child 3 months ago? Maybe it's postpartum depression.
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Hey, we all all have the need for sex. It's a release of tension but also a way of showing we care. We also have to look at the other's needs in the relationship. Maybe sex isn't priority because there is something else weighing that's taking up more of their time. So the focus should be what is needed for the other's need at that moment.
Yeah, again, I felt like I took the time to think about and talk to her about her needs and adjust what I was doing accordingly. If she needed time to herself, I took the kids camping for the weekend. If she was overwhelmed with all the things she had taken on as a mom and homeschool teacher, I stepped up and did more work around the house. I made a point to talk to her about her day and try to connect that way every day (which is also important to me).
I know part of the issue is that I didn't communicate well with her what would have meant the most to me in return. I've now done that and she knows what she can do to make me feel valued and appreciated (and no, its not just sex, that's about third or fourth on the list). But she also admits that it wasn't a mystery what I wanted, but that my lack of speaking up for myself made it really easy for her to ignore my needs simply because she didn't want to meet them.
I feel like we're on a path to a better future, it's just hard to let go of the more than a decade of habits that were formed by both of us. And one of those habits for me was having a victim mentality that I wasn't being treated fairly or the way I deserved and that it was completely her fault. There are things I could have and should have done to make things better, but I kept it all in instead of speaking up or changing the way I was behaving.
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I've learned over the 26 years of marriage that if I focus on my wife's needs, she will pay attention to your needs.
If the other person in the relationship is unhappy, you will be unhappy.
So, I think I was really terrible at explaining things in the beginning, and came across as demanding or whatever, but this statement above is essentially what my issue was. I focused on sex, because I thought you all could relate to more and is easier to explain. But it's about more than that.
I don't feel at all like these statements apply to me. For 11 years I felt like I had been pouring my heart and soul into meeting her needs, but felt l was getting just the bare minimum in return from her. There seemed to be minimal effort on her part to meet my needs, sexually and otherwise. If it was important to her I made it important to me. If I said it was important to me, she dug in her heels and refused to budge, and she readily admits this. I was unhappy, but she never expressed anything but happiness in our marriage, even when we started being more open about stuff.
Things have been better the last year, but still far short of me feeling like "if I focus on my wife's needs, she will pay attention to my needs" is completely accurate for us. I know it doesn't need to be an even exchange of one to one acts of service toward each other, but two years ago I would say it was closer to 30 to one me doing things for her and her doing things for me.
This is why you need to nudge her to counseling. There is underlining issues. Didn't you say you had a child 3 months ago? Maybe it's postpartum depression.
She's OK with this kid, but had it pretty bad on one of our others. And this is not a short term issue. It's been a struggle for 12 years. She definitely needs counselling and I encourage it every chance I get. I've offered to go with her. Honestly, I want to keep pushing things a little bit just to keep her uncomfortable enough so that she sees she needs it. Maybe that sounds mean... I don't want to hurt her... but she only seems to understand she could use help when she's realizing she's uncomfortable about the fact that her husband still desires her, which should be a good thing. I can't make her go obviously, and just us keeping the lines of communication open seems to help a great deal. I don't want to have to schedule a monthly "let's talk about your issues" meeting, but sometimes I think that would be almost as beneficial as therapy for her.
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Reading this thread with Mrs. P has been one of the highlights of my week. Thanks to everyone involved, and I mean that sincerely!
Does she think I’m a dick too?
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Reading this thread with Mrs. P has been one of the highlights of my week. Thanks to everyone involved, and I mean that sincerely!
Does she think I’m a dick too?
Did you have to ask? :lol
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H2, since you haven't seen it, at least watch this scene. It's most of what I'm talking about:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRG2jlQWCsY
This is perhaps the greatest movie monologue of all time. It's top 2 for me for sure.
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H2, since you haven't seen it, at least watch this scene. It's most of what I'm talking about:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRG2jlQWCsY
Dang, that's pretty powerful.
I'm not sure where this leaves us in the discussion.
I don't mind sharing a belief-forming experience. Did you know I was more active in pursuing relationships? I had a few serious long-term girlfriends. One of them was a serious girlfriend for two years and we were talking about getting married. We talked every day, we were very vulnerable with each other, we saw each other often. The cold hard truth is that deep down, the entire time I felt I was "supposed" to be with her. Everyone was encouraging me into it, and she liked me a lot, and I told myself I probably had some divine calling to be with her, and I had a sense that I was morally obligated to hurry up and find my person. But in the end, I became so resentful and beside myself. I was "supposed" to be with her, but I really did not like her at all. That relationship cost me time, money, self-esteem, and integrity. Obviously, it hurt her a lot, too. So it was bad for everyone. Every day I had to suppress my inner voice that was crying for freedom. But luckily I had a way out. But I imagine that if I were married to her, well, owing to my religious beliefs, I'd be trapped. It'd be game over. I imagine lots of men and women stick together because they're "supposed to" even though they hate each others' guts. I can't even imagine how hellish and stifling that would be. So after ending things with her, I vowed that next time, I would act in my self-interest like a good capitalist and only enter situations that I actually wanted to be in, and I would ignore any outside influences or fake senses of obligation to be with someone. That results in the best thing for everyone: Go for the person you genuinely want and who genuinely wants you. That's what I've learned.
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Reading this thread with Mrs. P has been one of the highlights of my week. Thanks to everyone involved, and I mean that sincerely!
Does she think I’m a dick too?
Did you have to ask? :lol
:lol
Just thought I’d throw it out there. :lol
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H2, since you haven't seen it, at least watch this scene. It's most of what I'm talking about:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRG2jlQWCsY
Dang, that's pretty powerful.
I'm not sure where this leaves us in the discussion.
I don't mind sharing a belief-forming experience. Did you know I was more active in pursuing relationships? I had a few serious long-term girlfriends. One of them was a serious girlfriend for two years and we were talking about getting married. We talked every day, we were very vulnerable with each other, we saw each other often. The cold hard truth is that deep down, the entire time I felt I was "supposed" to be with her. Everyone was encouraging me into it, and she liked me a lot, and I told myself I probably had some divine calling to be with her, and I had a sense that I was morally obligated to hurry up and find my person. But in the end, I became so resentful and beside myself. I was "supposed" to be with her, but I really did not like her at all. That relationship cost me time, money, self-esteem, and integrity. Obviously, it hurt her a lot, too. So it was bad for everyone. Every day I had to suppress my inner voice that was crying for freedom. But luckily I had a way out. But I imagine that if I were married to her, well, owing to my religious beliefs, I'd be trapped. It'd be game over. I imagine lots of men and women stick together because they're "supposed to" even though they hate each others' guts. I can't even imagine how hellish and stifling that would be. So after ending things with her, I vowed that next time, I would act in my self-interest like a good capitalist and only enter situations that I actually wanted to be in, and I would ignore any outside influences or fake senses of obligation to be with someone. That results in the best thing for everyone: Go for the person you genuinely want and who genuinely wants you. That's what I've learned.
Now this is totally fair and understandable.
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I don't have a ton to add that isn't just redundant but I'll try to see if I can throw in something for you Brother H.
You appear, and I could be wrong, to be approaching your future love/romance from a reductionist point of view. You are boiling it down to certain elements, traits, etc., all of which can be helpful (given where you're coming from) but none do the job.
It'd be like describing a painting to me and having me re-create it from your description. Yes, the painting does have red and green and black. Yes the painting is of a dog eating Stadler's knee hanging balls. Yes the painting is 56' x 23'. But whatever thing I paint won't be that painting because you can't boil something like that down to descriptions. Just like love or a healthy relationship. It's not a mathematical equation. It's not a business contact (unless you really do want it to be one). It's not a structure based on a blueprint. It is a unique, dynamic, unpredictable, and fragile creation that comes about by the extremely unique elements of you, the other person(s), the context of the relationship, and everything else that could influence it.
Your description reads like a business contract or an equation and I think that any of us who have been in happy relationships realize that this isn't how it works. If you want a marriage that is based less on genuine and spontaneous love and affection and more based around an exchange of services provided, such as you provide money, a home, seed for her eggs, a companion to engage in pre-agreed upon activities etc., and she provides a healthy womb, services in the kitchen and home and so forth, then you can probably find that girl (lord knows they're out there) and you may well be happy, but i doubt anyone else reading this would, and that's probably where you're seeing such a strong reaction.
If this is NOT how you want things, then I'll use myself as an example. I am 36 (the age you stated you wanted to be). I am not in amazing physical shape, I am bald, I am almost 200,000 in student debt, and I have a surprisingly low sex drive (I think Lordxizor would have a heart attack at that). Granted I am a professional psychologist, but if one were to focus on your objective list of things an ideal male mate could offer, I don't check off a ton of them. Yet, I have somehow, against all hope and, apparently, logic, found an amazing beautiful, lovely, fantastic partner that I can see a long and wonderful future with. And even more against your logic, she seems to love me as much as I love her. Did I go on a dating site and list all my negative attributions? No. Did I offer her some services rendered? Nah. I just realized, somewhere in my early 30's, that who I am, the core of me, is the part of me I want to work on. And I did. And now I am extremely happy with who I am. I'm pretty awesome, even if Stads would disagree.
I realized that all of those superficial things you seem to hate about yourself (which is pretty universal) don't matter a ton to the right person. Are there more women who would have turned me down than dated me? You betcha! But who cares? I don't need to be attractive to a billion women. Just the one I wanted. I hope that, one day, you'll figure this out. However, the more you externalize things and decide your value based on such merits, the less happy you'll be.
Based on how you describe yourself, I would suggest you have a good way to go but that the focus needs to be on YOU loving you, not getting someone else to love a version of you that you clearly aren't very fond of.
Anyway, that's all I got.
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Correction, it's TAC who admitted his nuts are running parallel with his knees.
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Correction, it's TAC who admitted his nuts are running parallel with his knees.
Poetic license.
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Reading this thread with Mrs. P has been one of the highlights of my week. Thanks to everyone involved, and I mean that sincerely!
Does she think I’m a dick too?
Did you have to ask? :lol
Mr. P: Hey, honey, read this.
Mrs. P: Who's the old guy?
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@Adami
Thanks for the wisdom. I hope to be half as kind and compassionate and well-spoken as you by 36.
EDIT: I don't know, fellas. A lot has gone so well, just not in this department. I can only surmise what you guys are talking about re: making genuine connections with a person, as I feel I have tasted that at some points in life. I am happy for you guys.
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Correction, it's TAC who admitted his nuts are running parallel with his knees.
Poetic license.
Or first hand knowledge?
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Correction, it's TAC who admitted his nuts are running parallel with his knees.
Poetic license.
Or first hand knowledge?
Hang on, I'll get some pics....
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Correction, it's TAC who admitted his nuts are running parallel with his knees.
Poetic license.
Or first hand knowledge?
Hang on, I'll get some pics....
I'm guessing Polaroids. TAC still used his.
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I am happy for you guys.
I am happy for the ones who have found it as well, I'm still searching, but trying to make sure I learn from my past relationships.
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This will be a long post so I apologize...thanks to those of you who read it.
Teenagers....am I right? We have two teenage boys in the house and for the most part we're just dealing with the typical teenage stuff of raging hormones and some bickering....and just boy attitudes. Nothing out of the ordinary or that we can't handle. But onto the reason why I'm really posting is this.
Our 15 year old son has begun cutting himself. It's brutal as a parent to see your son doing this to himself, especially because he's such a sweet....great kid. We have him in counseling and we have a great support group around him trying to help but it's freaking heartbreaking. He's telling us that he sees no hope in the world, that people 'suck'.....that it doesn't matter anyway because no one really cares about him....just on and on. I broke down the other day when we were talking because he says he just really doesn't like himself....which is super upsetting because like I told him....I LOVE who he is. He truly is the sweetest soul and genuinely happy. He gets along with everyone and seemingly has a lot of friends.
He says that he's not always 'depressed' but that he just gets down and when he cuts himself he just feels like he's "there". I have cutting and self mutilation in my past because of some sexual abuse I suffered so I asked him if there was something happening to him....if someone was doing things to him and he swore to me 'no'. He just feels lost and doesn't see any hope in the world right now.
He's a freshman in high school now....so that change is a weird time....he is a bit socially awkward and odd but he's such a good and sweet kid. I know he's going through some stuff and I think he's dealing with and noticing the differences between him and other kids and maybe that's bothering him..... but it's just heartbreaking to see him struggle like this. This past year or two as we know has been choc full of horrible news.....he's a big climate/care for the earth soul and he's always talking about how we're ruining the planet. I've tried to talk to him and encourage him to be a kid for a while and not 'worry' about such adult things but he just gets fixated on them. When my wife and I try to speak to him about this all he really doesn't want to....just says that we don't understand what it's like being him and doesn't see what the big deal is.
The 'cuts' he's inflicting on himself right now are really just exaggerated scratches which is why I think some of this is him knowing he will get attention....but, like I told him sooner or later these surface cuts won't be enough and he's going to go deeper or more dramatic. He SWEARS he's not suicidal and loves us all and would never kill himself but this is so frightening. Just when the scratches and cuts are nearly healed he will open them back up by scratching them.
His counselor has told us that if we don't see improvement soon that we're looking at potentially having to hospitalize him :'( I cannot even believe this is something that could have to happen...but, we are just so confused as to how to fix this and help him. We've put a plan in place with his counselor and basically had a full blown heart to heart with him on Sunday and said.....this HAS to stop. We will do whatever he needs but sooner or later we may very well have to have him hospitalized. I'm just in shock actually.
My initial, primordial thought is to scream and yell at him and basically tell him to knock it the :censored off and go old school 50's father on him.....but I know him and that would be brutal. Plus, I know from all we've read on this that is not the approach to take but I feel so helpless not being able to fix this for him. I'm devastated and have no answers.
I'm not expecting any of you to have answers either....I really just needed a place to vent because as I said....I'm devastated right now and am heartbroken that I can't do anything to help my son out of this.
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School counselor, or private therapist? Gary, if your experience is anything like mine (and I've written a little about it, but I can share more if need be; my oldest step daughter was bullied in the public school, my daughter has been in therapy for a couple years now, and my step son is on the spectrum and has an IEP also in a public school) the school counselors are not equipped for this. Oh, they may have the training and the will, but their ultimate master isn't the student, it's the school (and the other kids/parents).
My step son doesn't cut, but he picks; he will pick his finger nails (and toe nails) down to the quick. They will sometimes get infected and things spiral from there. Like you, it's heartbreaking to watch kids at that age - still reasonably pure of soul and with the world in front of them - grasping at straws like that, and it instills a level of helplessness that is numbing.
I get it; mental health is a dicey subject under healthcare plans, and is EXPENSIVE without one. Plus, specialties for kids that age are hard to find. But before you hospitalize, I would at least look into having him speak to someone who is focused ONLY on this little boy, and who has the experience and expertise to get to the heart of it. It might not solve the problem entirely, but it might at least give you all some hope.
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School counselor, or private therapist? Gary, if your experience is anything like mine (and I've written a little about it, but I can share more if need be; my oldest step daughter was bullied in the public school, my daughter has been in therapy for a couple years now, and my step son is on the spectrum and has an IEP also in a public school) the school counselors are not equipped for this. Oh, they may have the training and the will, but their ultimate master isn't the student, it's the school (and the other kids/parents).
My step son doesn't cut, but he picks; he will pick his finger nails (and toe nails) down to the quick. They will sometimes get infected and things spiral from there. Like you, it's heartbreaking to watch kids at that age - still reasonably pure of soul and with the world in front of them - grasping at straws like that, and it instills a level of helplessness that is numbing.
I get it; mental health is a dicey subject under healthcare plans, and is EXPENSIVE without one. Plus, specialties for kids that age are hard to find. But before you hospitalize, I would at least look into having him speak to someone who is focused ONLY on this little boy, and who has the experience and expertise to get to the heart of it. It might not solve the problem entirely, but it might at least give you all some hope.
Private therapist Bill. We're using the same group that I used a few years back. I had a great experience with them and they have a very experienced staff. We found a pretty good fit for him. I will fight tooth and nail for him before we reach the hospitalization stage. I don't think it's needed. My son has an IEP and it's largely due to his inability to quickly conceptualize and comprehend things in the moment. It takes him a bit to 'get it' and even express himself clearly at times. I really think a lot of what is going on with him is 'normal' teenage things coupled with the fact he just has a hard time expressing himself. As I said....it's brutal as a parent to see and be kind of helpless and not be able to do anything for him. But.....I also had a period of time in my mid teens where I was mutilating myself way worse than what I've seen him do and I got through it.
But I appreciate the post Bill.
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Damn, Gary. Tough spot as a parent for sure. I know it's completely anecdotal, but I intimately knew a number of people when I was in that exact same age bracket that'd cut themselves. But like your son, they seemed more like a cry for attention than anything resembling a means to an end. All of those people are now level-headed adults with families and stuff (though two have been sucked into pyramid schemes on FB pretty deep).
When my wife and I try to speak to him about this all he really doesn't want to....just says that we don't understand what it's like being him and doesn't see what the big deal is.
I don't know how religious your household is on a day-to-day basis, and I know you're not a "honk if you love Jesus" type, but any possibility he's got something going on, or conflicting urges (gay/bi/trans/etc) that he might be ashamed of? Something that might conflict with some of the teachings he's been exposed to?
I regularly do what Bill's kid does. I shred the tips of my fingers until they bleed and have had a number of infections over the years stemming from basically tearing chunks of my fingernails out of my fingertips. It's directly correlated to how overwhelmed I am in life at the moment, and I think I do it subconsciously as a way to distract myself and kill time.
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Like I texted you, no advice I have is born out of 1st hand knowledge or experience, but what about a physical outlet. I can't remember if you have him in hockey or not, but what about something more individual/physical as a means of release - boxing/martial arts kinda stuff??
Just spitballin here.
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Feel free to PM me as well.
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I don't know how religious your household is on a day-to-day basis, and I know you're not a "honk if you love Jesus" type, but any possibility he's got something going on, or conflicting urges (gay/bi/trans/etc) that he might be ashamed of? Something that might conflict with some of the teachings he's been exposed to?
I don't think so...he seems to be pretty girl crazy but he did ask me a few months ago if you can die from masturbating too much :lol I told him no that if it was possible I'd never had made it to the age of 20. But seriously, we've had great conversations about sexuality so I don't suspect this is something going on but I can't be for certain.
Like I texted you, no advice I have is born out of 1st hand knowledge or experience, but what about a physical outlet. I can't remember if you have him in hockey or not, but what about something more individual/physical as a means of release - boxing/martial arts kinda stuff??
Just spitballin here.
He does like to golf....and we've been a few times. But he's not a real sports type kid. He loves drumming and we have him in lessons and School of Rock where he's made a ton of friends. It's all so odd because he doesn't mope around and act all gloomy....he's truly 'happy' for the most part. He just says sometimes he gets down when he starts thinking about the world.
Feel free to PM me as well.
Thank you...I very well may soon.
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This is not my wheelhouse but I have raised teenagers who have had different issues/stressors to manage with therapy and the like.
My only thought or bit of advice is to think about when I've had thoughts - and I have them even now from time to time - that the world sucks and is a terrible place and other hopeless thoughts like that - is to purposefully focus my attention on things that I can control and things that show me the opposite is true. To challenge my negative thought patterns, if you will.
Maybe your son would benefit from finding some way to harness one of his passions into something good for the world. Or maybe an outlet where he can witness other young people making real differences for others. Finding something tangible for him to experience where there is active good in the world can lead him to see things from a different perspective. I get that this can be easier said than done. Depression can make doing any one step forward feel like walking a mile.
But you know him. You know what things get him excited or interested or passionate. Find ways to tap into that. Ask him to consider how he can "be the change" (sorry, I don't mean to be glib) and once he gets some momentum it will hopefully get easier.
After the last 18 months, it's hard for many people to see the good out there. I certainly can't fault any young adult for having those feelings.
It might also help to find some program in your local area that provides DBT. Even a group setting with other people who likewise struggle can help him feel less alone with his struggles.
And don't forget to take care of his dad. :heart
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This is not my wheelhouse but I have raised teenagers who have had different issues/stressors to manage with therapy and the like.
My only thought or bit of advice is to think about when I've had thoughts - and I have them even now from time to time - that the world sucks and is a terrible place and other hopeless thoughts like that - is to purposefully focus my attention on things that I can control and things that show me the opposite is true. To challenge my negative thought patterns, if you will.
Maybe your son would benefit from finding some way to harness one of his passions into something good for the world. Or maybe an outlet where he can witness other young people making real differences for others. Finding something tangible for him to experience where there is active good in the world can lead him to see things from a different perspective. I get that this can be easier said than done. Depression can make doing any one step forward feel like walking a mile.
But you know him. You know what things get him excited or interested or passionate. Find ways to tap into that. Ask him to consider how he can "be the change" (sorry, I don't mean to be glib) and once he gets some momentum it will hopefully get easier.
After the last 18 months, it's hard for many people to see the good out there. I certainly can't fault any young adult for having those feelings.
It might also help to find some program in your local area that provides DBT. Even a group setting with other people who likewise struggle can help him feel less alone with his struggles.
And don't forget to take care of his dad. :heart
Thanks Harmony. His mom and I have spoke to him about while yes, there are some bad things in the world and it can look hopeless there are a ton of great things as well.....and have asked him to do what you've brought up. Focus on the good and positive things that humanity has to offer to drown out the bad.
thank you all for the sentiments....I do appreciate it.
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I don't know how religious your household is on a day-to-day basis, and I know you're not a "honk if you love Jesus" type, but any possibility he's got something going on, or conflicting urges (gay/bi/trans/etc) that he might be ashamed of? Something that might conflict with some of the teachings he's been exposed to?
I don't think so...he seems to be pretty girl crazy but he did ask me a few months ago if you can die from masturbating too much :lol I told him no that if it was possible I'd never had made it to the age of 20. But seriously, we've had great conversations about sexuality so I don't suspect this is something going on but I can't be for certain.
I'm sorry, buddy, but I had to laugh out loud at that one. I think the DTF population would decrease by about three quarters if that was possible (myself included!).
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After the last 18 months, it's hard for many people to see the good out there. I certainly can't fault any young adult for having those feelings.
I cannot imagine having to grow up and go through those weird years entering young adulthood with 24/7 news cycles pimping as much negativity as they can. Just being bombarded with brutal realities of the world that once parents were able to kind of insulate their kids from for a while. It's been a crazy 18-24 months.....put on top of that the climate change realizations and the racial things....it's tough to understand how a young mind would process this all.
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Holy shit, Gary, I just read your post.
I don't even know what to say, but I'm so sorry you guys are going through this.
I live in a very small town. We had a suicide in our high school three years ago. My son is good friends with the girl's brother, and sat next to her in the Sax line in the band. Beautiful girl, hockey player. It was horrible.
My wife and I talked with my son endlessly about it and how he felt. It got me extremely nervous.
I can only wish you the best in taking care of your son. My heart really hurts for you.
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I have thoughts on this but am too tired tonight to write them out. Will check in tomorrow or this weekend.
The fact that someone can share such a personal story like that on this forum and receive a high level of support and understanding makes me happy to be a member here.
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The fact that someone can share such a personal story like that on this forum and receive a high level of support and understanding makes me happy to be a member here.
I had been contemplating for a week or so whether or not to post……but I’ve seen this forum give support time and time again to a lot of folks so I opened up. And, it didn’t fail in this instance either. I’ve had a couple PMs as well that have been truly helpful….eye opening and appreciated.
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Damn. I just read your post, Gary, and do not know what to say. I cannot imagine what you are going through. You know where I am if you ever need to text or chat or hang out or anything. I will say a few prayers for you and your family.
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Just letting you know that I'm here in solidarity with you. My daughter is 6 and is having HUGE emotional swings, from cry-fests to jealousy of other kids, to absolutely raging tantrums. We just contacted a child therapy place to get an appointment so she can have an outlet for some of these emotions. We don't know how to deal with it anymore at home. It's to the point where we do have to go old-school parent and shout as loud as we can during the tantrums to scare her into stopping the behavior. Nothing else works.
Do you have anything that you share with him? My daughter loves father/daughter time - we go for bike rides alone, do puzzles, play board games, etc. If you have a shared interest (even if it's video games or movie nights), maybe that will help take his mind off of the negativity and reinforce the positive family influence.
I also agree with the physical outlet - sports, martial arts. Wrestling helped me when I was a teenager, and my nephew (who is mildly autistic) thrives in full-contact football and martial arts.
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Just letting you know that I'm here in solidarity with you. My daughter is 6 and is having HUGE emotional swings, from cry-fests to jealousy of other kids, to absolutely raging tantrums. We just contacted a child therapy place to get an appointment so she can have an outlet for some of these emotions. We don't know how to deal with it anymore at home. It's to the point where we do have to go old-school parent and shout as loud as we can during the tantrums to scare her into stopping the behavior. Nothing else works.
I'm asking this as a non-parent and as someone with virtually no experience with children until just recently... Is it possible that's completely okay and natural behavior, and maybe what's required? I mean, pretty much every mammal on Earth uses some kind of physical and audible method of keeping their offspring in check. I'm not suggesting the answer to everything is to verbally berate your child, but if a kid is bugging out and a parent towering over them and interrupting that train of thought with a louder cry is what checks them for a minute, is that bad?
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Just letting you know that I'm here in solidarity with you. My daughter is 6 and is having HUGE emotional swings, from cry-fests to jealousy of other kids, to absolutely raging tantrums. We just contacted a child therapy place to get an appointment so she can have an outlet for some of these emotions. We don't know how to deal with it anymore at home. It's to the point where we do have to go old-school parent and shout as loud as we can during the tantrums to scare her into stopping the behavior. Nothing else works.
I'm asking this as a non-parent and as someone with virtually no experience with children until just recently... Is it possible that's completely okay and natural behavior, and maybe what's required? I mean, pretty much every mammal on Earth uses some kind of physical and audible method of keeping their offspring in check. I'm not suggesting the answer to everything is to verbally berate your child, but if a kid is bugging out and a parent towering over them and interrupting that train of thought with a louder cry is what checks them for a minute, is that bad?
I honestly don't know. We hate doing it - we've had to spank her and it feels awful. Same with having to yell louder and more aggressive than her in order to make her snap out of it. We've all had those experiences from our parents (my dad chased my brother threw the house and knocked his bedroom door off of the hinges in order to scare him enough to get him to adjust his attitude), but maybe there is a better way to reach her that doesn't involve potential emotional scarring. Not that she's that affected by it - she knows the reason why it happens and it only happens for that specific reason, but I do have fears of her growing up and looking back on things and being affected by it.
She's admitted things to us afterwards, telling us the reasons that she was upset. Maybe if she talks to a child therapist, she can talk to someone other than us and get them out before resorting to being upset or throwing a tantrum. She can also learn to cope with her emotions. There's a lot that goes into it, from learning to navigate a new school year, navigating the pandemic, jealousy of other kids. Some of it's normal kid stuff, some of it is forced on her because of this stupid pandemic and how schools and life is changing compared to how it used to be.
I have no problem trying a different approach, since the current course doesn't seem to be working.
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Just letting you know that I'm here in solidarity with you. My daughter is 6 and is having HUGE emotional swings, from cry-fests to jealousy of other kids, to absolutely raging tantrums. We just contacted a child therapy place to get an appointment so she can have an outlet for some of these emotions. We don't know how to deal with it anymore at home. It's to the point where we do have to go old-school parent and shout as loud as we can during the tantrums to scare her into stopping the behavior. Nothing else works.
I'm asking this as a non-parent and as someone with virtually no experience with children until just recently... Is it possible that's completely okay and natural behavior, and maybe what's required? I mean, pretty much every mammal on Earth uses some kind of physical and audible method of keeping their offspring in check. I'm not suggesting the answer to everything is to verbally berate your child, but if a kid is bugging out and a parent towering over them and interrupting that train of thought with a louder cry is what checks them for a minute, is that bad?
I'm no expert either, but I think it's like anything else and depends on context. My kid's mom was a yeller. Not at her, but she'd freak out and start screaming at me or whoever. So yelling at my daughter had "baggage" to it and didn't usually work in any productive way. With my daughter - and I stress that this is one experience with one child in one very specific environment - the CALMER I got the better it worked. Always a challenge, mind you, but that was the key there. I know I can't really remember much about "discipline" in my family except that I was rarely if ever spanked, and almost always just yelled at, but it largely worked. I'm not especially fond of people who yell now as an adult, and I don't know if that's remnants of my childhood or something else, but as a kid that's how my attention was focused.
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My father perfected the Mike Brady look.
(https://static.newarena.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/Brady-Bunch-1024x774.jpg)
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I self-harmed several times when I was his age. I think it was social contagion - at some point you learn people do this thing sometimes and when your emotions get extreme enough something takes over and you try it just to see if it helps. It doesn't really, but now you're a person who did that, and when you do it twice, you're a person who does stuff like that.
A lot of things happen that make teenagers have these extreme emotions - both external and internal factors, as you said. I'd focus on how it doesn't do anything except harm him, it's not gonna make it easier to live in the world with people or with himself. If I could go back, I would make it far less obvious that I was a depressed young teen. One professor called me out once in front of the class for some song lyrics I'd carved into the desk (such cliche) and asked me to go see the school psychologist, and I was absolutely mortified, not because there's anything inherently embarrassing about having bad mental health, but because:
people 'suck'
and they didn't deserve to know me like that *shrug*. Does that make sense? It sucked that these people who made my life worse (just because kids can sense who's different) knew anything about me at all. The school mill from Another Brick In The Wall always spits out people like us but we can try and minimize harm, or at least balance harms with the good stuff, which is where you as a parent can step in and give him some great experiences.
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Sorry to read about your son Gary. That must be so heartbreaking to see and try to handle as a parent. I don't really have any advice to add, but I hope someone or something can get through to him to see the more positives in life.
On a side note, stuff like this makes me scared af to be a parent and one of many reasons why I don't see myself having kids. Not only would it be so difficult to handle, I feel like I wouldn't even have answers. Like, I even believe the world is going towards a bad place? How can I protect a kid from doing down with it? I'd guess as someone else said, focus on the things you can control, but that's easier said than done especially in today's socially interconnected world we live in.
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Marc, if I knew how much I would worry, I would've never had them.
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On a side note, stuff like this makes me scared af to be a parent and one of many reasons why I don't see myself having kids. Not only would it be so difficult to handle, I feel like I wouldn't even have answers.
No one has the answers. And don't think those millions of books on the shelves at Barnes and Noble do, because they don't. It's a learning process, and we do the best we can. And with a little luck, a little grace, and a ton of love and perseverance, they turn out alright.
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He's a freshman in high school now....so that change is a weird time....he is a bit socially awkward and odd but he's such a good and sweet kid. I know he's going through some stuff and I think he's dealing with and noticing the differences between him and other kids and maybe that's bothering him..... but it's just heartbreaking to see him struggle like this. This past year or two as we know has been choc full of horrible news.....he's a big climate/care for the earth soul and he's always talking about how we're ruining the planet. I've tried to talk to him and encourage him to be a kid for a while and not 'worry' about such adult things but he just gets fixated on them. When my wife and I try to speak to him about this all he really doesn't want to....just says that we don't understand what it's like being him and doesn't see what the big deal is.
I do not know you obviously but I am very sorry for what your family is going through. I know that's a typical response but I do mean it. Have you or you son looked into some sort of environmental group/activities? I don't know if that would make the situation better or worse...I doubt the environmen is the root cause of all this. Just throwing it out there. It's probably something you've already thought about.
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Marc, if I knew how much I would worry, I would've never had them.
Yeah, and there's no way to realistically foresee how broadly that applies. When my daughter was born in 2001, I not only had no idea what I was really in for, but I had no idea to what degree the world would change in that time. There was no COVID. There was no (in my world) social media. There was no real political divisiveness like we see today. There was no visible national insecurity of the type that has led to what we're seeing today in terms of mass killings and what not. For me, anyway, the concept of divorce was "for other people" and the concept of "therapy" - for me or for my kid was foreign. Fast forward, I'm now divorced and both my kid and I are (proactively) in therapy for different reasons.
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He's a freshman in high school now....so that change is a weird time....he is a bit socially awkward and odd but he's such a good and sweet kid. I know he's going through some stuff and I think he's dealing with and noticing the differences between him and other kids and maybe that's bothering him..... but it's just heartbreaking to see him struggle like this. This past year or two as we know has been choc full of horrible news.....he's a big climate/care for the earth soul and he's always talking about how we're ruining the planet. I've tried to talk to him and encourage him to be a kid for a while and not 'worry' about such adult things but he just gets fixated on them. When my wife and I try to speak to him about this all he really doesn't want to....just says that we don't understand what it's like being him and doesn't see what the big deal is.
I do not know you obviously but I am very sorry for what your family is going through. I know that's a typical response but I do mean it. Have you or you son looked into some sort of environmental group/activities? I don't know if that would make the situation better or worse...I doubt the environmen is the root cause of all this. Just throwing it out there. It's probably something you've already thought about.
He is in 'School of Rock' which has been great for him. He made a lot of friends in his last session and the new session is coming up and he's really looking forward to it. I appreciate the thought and idea...we're certainly looking to keep him engaged and exposed to group activities. Definitely don't want him to saunter off and become a recluse at this stage.
Just as an update of sorts.....not that I think this has magically disappeared but ever since the last deep and serious conversation his mother and I had with him last Friday night.....the marks on his arms look nearly healed....so the next day or two will be revealing as this is when he's usually scratched and messed with them to keep them noticeable. They've not been to the point of fully healed for some time now...I'd say three or four months. So I'm not going to bring it up to him because the last time I did that I said "hey bud....really proud of you to see your marks are going away" and literally an hour later they were back. So, I'm going to just lay off and see what happens.
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Sorry to read about your son Gary. That must be so heartbreaking to see and try to handle as a parent. I don't really have any advice to add, but I hope someone or something can get through to him to see the more positives in life.
On a side note, stuff like this makes me scared af to be a parent and one of many reasons why I don't see myself having kids. Not only would it be so difficult to handle, I feel like I wouldn't even have answers. Like, I even believe the world is going towards a bad place? How can I protect a kid from doing down with it? I'd guess as someone else said, focus on the things you can control, but that's easier said than done especially in today's socially interconnected world we live in.
A bit late, but sorry to read that Gary. Hope things are improving.
But I'm with Marc here. Truth be told Gary, while I'm in not into self harm, I feel what your son feels. The hopelessness, the what's the point and I'm insignificant feelings are things I myself tussle with getting older. I don't think I was that bad at your sons age though. Never been suicidal myself so reading your post, I'd believe him when he tells you he's not. He's just maybe too young and not mature enough to handle these feelings that are real.
So, yes, I don't think I could bring children into the world. To have a child and have them depressed and go through things I feel is just not fair. I'm not saying I'm depressed either but I thought things may change but how things are in this world to, I see no positive in it for me.
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Marc, if I knew how much I would worry, I would've never had them.
Wow!
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A bit late, but sorry to read that Gary. Hope things are improving.
Thank you sir.....and things have been improving. His mother and I had a VERY long and serious talk with him about two weeks ago, really just laid it all out there. Since then, the marks on his arm are nearly gone and he's not so stand off-ish when we talk to him about this issue. He went to his first Homecoming last weekend after being set up with a date by his buddy.....the next session of School of Rock has begun and he and his brother are in that together (their artist to learn songs from this round is RUSH :metal)
But all in all we have seen improvement but by no means am I considering this 'over'. I know how long these battles can go and am just going to try and be there in any way, shape or form that I can for him.
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Very relieved to hear that the progress is going in a positive direction.
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That's great to hear Gary!
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Very relieved to hear that the progress is going in a positive direction.
That's great to hear Gary!
Thanks fellas and thank to all of you who have given advice/support. It truly means a lot
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A bit late, but sorry to read that Gary. Hope things are improving.
Thank you sir.....and things have been improving. His mother and I had a VERY long and serious talk with him about two weeks ago, really just laid it all out there. Since then, the marks on his arm are nearly gone and he's not so stand off-ish when we talk to him about this issue. He went to his first Homecoming last weekend after being set up with a date by his buddy.....the next session of School of Rock has begun and he and his brother are in that together (their artist to learn songs from this round is RUSH :metal)
But all in all we have seen improvement but by no means am I considering this 'over'. I know how long these battles can go and am just going to try and be there in any way, shape or form that I can for him.
Any step forward is a blessing. That's great to hear. Your family seems together on this, and that will hopefully find the stability he needs. Keep it up Gary. We're all thinking of you.
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A bit late, but sorry to read that Gary. Hope things are improving.
Thank you sir.....and things have been improving. His mother and I had a VERY long and serious talk with him about two weeks ago, really just laid it all out there. Since then, the marks on his arm are nearly gone and he's not so stand off-ish when we talk to him about this issue. He went to his first Homecoming last weekend after being set up with a date by his buddy.....the next session of School of Rock has begun and he and his brother are in that together (their artist to learn songs from this round is RUSH :metal)
But all in all we have seen improvement but by no means am I considering this 'over'. I know how long these battles can go and am just going to try and be there in any way, shape or form that I can for him.
Any step forward is a blessing. That's great to hear. Your family seems together on this, and that will hopefully find the stability he needs. Keep it up Gary. We're all thinking of you.
Well that blew up in my face.
Yesterday his forearm was nearly 100% healed....you'd have had to known what to look for that's how good it was looking. He walked in from school today holding his arm behind his back and I immediately knew.....he walked over to me and gave me a big hug....was happy....didn't want to let me go.....but I knew.
We stopped hugging and I looked at his arm and saw the marks and looked at him and he wouldn't look at me and walked over to get a drink. I nearly blew my F'n lid....but kept semi-calm and was just like 'buddy....it was nearly all gone????" He shut down and didn't want to talk...kept trying to get around me as I wanted to keep talking and finally I just let him walk away to go to his room.
I am completely lost as to what to do. I don't know what else TO do. I'm just crushed right now........
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That's heartbreaking mate, sorry to hear that. :'(
Being without children I wouldn't dare try and give you advice I'm sorry, I wouldn't know where to start. Do you try and convince him to go with you for professional help?
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That's heartbreaking mate, sorry to hear that. :'(
Being without children I wouldn't dare try and give you advice I'm sorry, I wouldn't know where to start. Do you try and convince him to go with you for professional help?
He is receiving professional counseling. He just isn't all that engaged when it comes to really discussing what's going on. His 'point' in all of this is that 'we' don't understand what he's going through....no one understands.....etc etc. I get it, we've all been teenagers and dealt with many things but he is very reluctant to accept advice or help. It's as if he is just choosing to stay in this self pity mode or something.
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A bit late, but sorry to read that Gary. Hope things are improving.
Thank you sir.....and things have been improving. His mother and I had a VERY long and serious talk with him about two weeks ago, really just laid it all out there. Since then, the marks on his arm are nearly gone and he's not so stand off-ish when we talk to him about this issue. He went to his first Homecoming last weekend after being set up with a date by his buddy.....the next session of School of Rock has begun and he and his brother are in that together (their artist to learn songs from this round is RUSH :metal)
But all in all we have seen improvement but by no means am I considering this 'over'. I know how long these battles can go and am just going to try and be there in any way, shape or form that I can for him.
Any step forward is a blessing. That's great to hear. Your family seems together on this, and that will hopefully find the stability he needs. Keep it up Gary. We're all thinking of you.
Well that blew up in my face.
Yesterday his forearm was nearly 100% healed....you'd have had to known what to look for that's how good it was looking. He walked in from school today holding his arm behind his back and I immediately knew.....he walked over to me and gave me a big hug....was happy....didn't want to let me go.....but I knew.
We stopped hugging and I looked at his arm and saw the marks and looked at him and he wouldn't look at me and walked over to get a drink. I nearly blew my F'n lid....but kept semi-calm and was just like 'buddy....it was nearly all gone????" He shut down and didn't want to talk...kept trying to get around me as I wanted to keep talking and finally I just let him walk away to go to his room.
I am completely lost as to what to do. I don't know what else TO do. I'm just crushed right now........
Fuck.
That's heartbreaking mate, sorry to hear that. :'(
Being without children I wouldn't dare try and give you advice I'm sorry, I wouldn't know where to start. Do you try and convince him to go with you for professional help?
He is receiving professional counseling. He just isn't all that engaged when it comes to really discussing what's going on. His 'point' in all of this is that 'we' don't understand what he's going through....no one understands.....etc etc. I get it, we've all been teenagers and dealt with many things but he is very reluctant to accept advice or help. It's as if he is just choosing to stay in this self pity mode or something.
Gary, I have two, er three questions..
1. Does he have friends or a best friend, and if so, do you know the parents, and might you discuss what's going on? They could be going through the something similar, or maybe if not, they could ask their child about yours in a roundabout way.
2. Do you have access to his social media/computer? Many kids have two IG accounts. One for family to see, and then another for their friends.
Would you consider hiring someone to go through his computer system?
3. Have you searched his room for clues while he's at school? Things like drawings, some kind of journal..
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@Tim
1. Does he have friends or a best friend, and if so, do you know the parents, and might you discuss what's going on? They could be going through the something similar, or maybe if not, they could ask their child about yours in a roundabout way. We have involved everyone of his close friends parents as we are close with them. We're all at a loss over this. It's very confusing
2. Do you have access to his social media/computer? Many kids have two IG accounts. One for family to see, and then another for their friends.
Would you consider hiring someone to go through his computer system? I monitor and control all the boys access to the internet and we regularly look through their phones and computer. He only has one Instagram account that I am aware of.
3. Have you searched his room for clues while he's at school? Things like drawings, some kind of journal.. He does do both, journal and draw quite a bit. I haven't read his journal in some time. His pics seem to be pretty tame.
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Gary, seems like you're doing all you can do. Keep at it. I'm feel awful just reading about it.
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My hearts with you buddy. You have my number.
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My hearts with you buddy. You have my number.
Yep and I thank you deeply. What you sent me already was eye opening and needed. Just hearing an explanation of sorts and having suggestions in a straight forward way was great to get. I really do appreciate it so if you see a (314) area code pop up it's probably me.
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Well that blew up in my face.
Yesterday his forearm was nearly 100% healed....you'd have had to known what to look for that's how good it was looking. He walked in from school today holding his arm behind his back and I immediately knew.....he walked over to me and gave me a big hug....was happy....didn't want to let me go.....but I knew.
We stopped hugging and I looked at his arm and saw the marks and looked at him and he wouldn't look at me and walked over to get a drink. I nearly blew my F'n lid....but kept semi-calm and was just like 'buddy....it was nearly all gone????" He shut down and didn't want to talk...kept trying to get around me as I wanted to keep talking and finally I just let him walk away to go to his room.
I am completely lost as to what to do. I don't know what else TO do. I'm just crushed right now........
Oh man, I was just gutted reading this last night. If I were you, I'd take Adami's professional advice over mine, but I do have a couple of things that came to mind. First, I heard recently "anger is a secondary emotion". Maybe this is something he needs to hear from you and Mrs Miller - that anytime your anger comes through (or even if he thinks you're angry), that it's really things like fear and sadness manifesting itself as anger. Also, have you shared with him any of your emotional/mental health struggles from your youth/early 20s? I have no idea if it will help or hurt. Lastly, it seems that he's ashamed of the situation himself - trying to hide it from you. Not sure if it's ashamed of himself for doing it, or ashamed of disappointing his parents. Maybe this is a good thing (his shame)?? We all have things we are shameful and/or feel unworthy about.
Damn man, I can't begin to imagine how stressful this is.
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First, I heard recently "anger is a secondary emotion". Maybe this is something he needs to hear from you and Mrs Miller - that anytime your anger comes through (or even if he thinks you're angry), that it's really things like fear and sadness manifesting itself as anger. Also, have you shared with him any of your emotional/mental health struggles from your youth/early 20s?
:tup :tup
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Oh man, I was just gutted reading this last night. If I were you, I'd take Adami's professional advice over mine, but I do have a couple of things that came to mind. First, I heard recently "anger is a secondary emotion". Maybe this is something he needs to hear from you and Mrs Miller - that anytime your anger comes through (or even if he thinks you're angry), that it's really things like fear and sadness manifesting itself as anger. Also, have you shared with him any of your emotional/mental health struggles from your youth/early 20s? I have no idea if it will help or hurt. Lastly, it seems that he's ashamed of the situation himself - trying to hide it from you. Not sure if it's ashamed of himself for doing it, or ashamed of disappointing his parents. Maybe this is a good thing (his shame)?? We all have things we are shameful and/or feel unworthy about.
Chad....I have spoke at length with him about my struggles....why I went through a period of self harm, I've been very open and honest with him. He told me he was really sad that those things happened to me and that I had to go through it but assured me that he wasn't being molested or sexually abused. His 'mantra' if you will is he insists that no one understands what he's going through, that he can't explain it but that no one 'gets' it.
I've tried to relate with him by telling him that I do understand because I've been there but it just doesn't click with him. He has mentioned several times that he 'knows that we are disappointed with him' so I'm certain there's a level of shame there. He receives help in school in math and english as his comprehension takes a bit of reassurance and work for him to fully grasp some concepts. This also affects his ability to articulate his point clearly at times. I think that has worked it's way into his social environment now as he's said many times that he 'knows he's different'
I've tried to help him understand that everyone is who they are and that I LOVE who he is....that it's not only ok to be different it's really awesome who he is. But, mix in starting high school, our current state of culture, the fact he worries continuously about our planet being destroyed.....he's just overwhelmed. I keep searching for the perfect phrase to express to him that'll help it all make sense and help him 'snap' out of it but I just can't seem to find it.
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Sad to read what's happening, but even when you were posting about things seemingly better, you knew this wasn't over. Just got to keep up with being the good supporting parent you are.
As for the "no one understands" I think we've all been in that position when we were young and felt like no one's ever been in our shoes before. It takes age to realize that's not completely true so I'm not entirely sure that's something you can easily explain even with your own past that can very much relate, it's just not going to click for him yet.
This sucks so much and I feel terrible for you and your family, all I can say is we all know how much you love your son and how hard you are trying so just got to stay strong and keep doing what you feel is best.
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Sad to read what's happening, but even when you were posting about things seemingly better, you knew this wasn't over. Just got to keep up with being the good supporting parent you are.
As for the "no one understands" I think we've all been in that position when we were young and felt like no one's ever been in our shoes before. It takes age to realize that's not completely true so I'm not entirely sure that's something you can easily explain even with your own past that can very much relate, it's just not going to click for him yet.
This sucks so much and I feel terrible for you and your family, all I can say is we all know how much you love your son and how hard you are trying so just got to stay strong and keep doing what you feel is best.
All of this. Sorry you are going through this. Hang in there.
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Gary, all you can do is be there like you have and continue to encourage help from a professional.
My wife had a breakdown about her parents right before Thanksgiving 2 decades ago. She decided not to see them. Cut them out of her life. She was struggling why would they do this. Everyone close to her said all the right things but it took someone outside the family to give peace to my wife snd her emotions on her family.
It took someone not close to her to reassure it wasn't her.
Not the same as your son but keep being positive.
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Not the same as your son but keep being positive.
Yeah....well, massive fail on that point tonight. My wife searched his room and found chards of glass and a Workman Utility tool under his mattress. AND she found letters from a girl he hangs out a lot with at church and she read them. In those letters the girl (who is 13) mentioned to my son that sometimes she will sneak into her parents bathroom and take a couple of any pills that she can find....that she too just doesn't know 'why she's here?'
We told him what we found and that we read his letters and he lost it. Spit at my wife....started yelling and cursing at us, which I allowed for a few minutes....but, he kept disrespecting my wife and I for far too long and I then lost it. I got in his face and told him he wouldn't speak to us like that and he then tried to push me aside and I wouldn't allow it....I wrapped him up in a bear hug and we had a small wrestling match. I just held him until he had tired out....then let him go and he stormed off to his room.
So obviously then my wife gets pi$$ed at me and I'm a big bad guy and so we argue.....and honestly, I've distanced myself from all of them tonight. Which sucks because my youngest son has no clue as to whats going on....he's his happy chipper self, but I've been stewing for hours now with all sorts of crap brewing in my head.
I'm about tapped out at the moment and coupled with the stress from a pretty demanding job and this.....I'm just cooked.
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Oh man....
When calmer heads prevail, remind him your anger is coming from a place of fear and sadness (I'm assuming). Also, remind him you're not angry with him, but the behavior. I forget what movie I heard it in, some mother said to one of her kids "you're not a bad person. But this is very bad behavior."
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Dammit. At least you found more info that you need. Just emotionally drained and I understand. Your wife needs to understand no man should talk to a woman or s mom like this
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Oh Jesus mate.
Maybe try and contact the parents of the girl he's talking to?
Maybe talk with your wife soon. Fighting with her certainly won't help the situation at hand. She'll calm down and remind her you both want the same thing. Feel for you mate.
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Dammit. At least you found more info that you need. Just emotionally drained and I understand. Your wife needs to understand no man should talk to a woman or s mom like this
Indeed.
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Or spit for that matter.
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Not the same as your son but keep being positive.
Yeah....well, massive fail on that point tonight. My wife searched his room and found chards of glass and a Workman Utility tool under his mattress. AND she found letters from a girl he hangs out a lot with at church and she read them. In those letters the girl (who is 13) mentioned to my son that sometimes she will sneak into her parents bathroom and take a couple of any pills that she can find....that she too just doesn't know 'why she's here?'
We told him what we found and that we read his letters and he lost it. Spit at my wife....started yelling and cursing at us, which I allowed for a few minutes....but, he kept disrespecting my wife and I for far too long and I then lost it. I got in his face and told him he wouldn't speak to us like that and he then tried to push me aside and I wouldn't allow it....I wrapped him up in a bear hug and we had a small wrestling match. I just held him until he had tired out....then let him go and he stormed off to his room.
So obviously then my wife gets pi$$ed at me and I'm a big bad guy and so we argue.....and honestly, I've distanced myself from all of them tonight. Which sucks because my youngest son has no clue as to whats going on....he's his happy chipper self, but I've been stewing for hours now with all sorts of crap brewing in my head.
I'm about tapped out at the moment and coupled with the stress from a pretty demanding job and this.....I'm just cooked.
Gary, that's heartbreaking.
That first paragraph, I think I mentioned we had a suicude in our town a few years ago. I think she was 14 or 15. She played in the sax line next to my son in the band, and he's good friends with her brother. It was awful, and we talked with him and watched him.
I mentioned going through his room the other day. It's gut wrenching to find that stuff.
About the second paragraph..I admire the way you handled it with the bear hug. Not sure why the Mrs. would be mad at you, but I'm sure she's as frustrated, if not more, than you are. She's a mother..
And this has nothing to do with your situation, but I thought I'd share..
My stepson is gay. I met his mother shortly before he turned 6. I married his mother when he was 7 so he grew up in our house. He "came out" while in college, though it was obvious to us long before that.
My wife couldn't have been more accepting. Me either, though his issue was with his mother. Even though she was accepting and loving when he talked with her, he was still upset because in his eyes, she never legitimized his struggle and his anxiety about talking about it. She simply accepted it, which, to him, glossed over the fact that he was agonizing.
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Maybe try and contact the parents of the girl he's talking to?
My wife called her....don't know what was said because I'm still self isolating.
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Oh man....
When calmer heads prevail, remind him your anger is coming from a place of fear and sadness (I'm assuming). Also, remind him you're not angry with him, but the behavior. I forget what movie I heard it in, some mother said to one of her kids "you're not a bad person. But this is very bad behavior."
My dad used to say to me "You're not stupid, but you're acting really stupid right now".
Gary, man, that's a tough read. Really hoping for the best for you and your family. It's got to be extra tough on your son now, knowing that he's got extra close eyes on him. I'm not saying that what you did was the wrong move. I'm in your court on this one. When my sister was in her early teens, my father put software on her PC to monitor every button she pressed and everything that was sent to her. She was unaware and my parents found some pretty heavy shit. Not so much with her, but the people she was starting to surround herself with. It was bad for a while. Lots of resentment from my sister, most likely due to a broken line of trust. But looking back, it was 100% the right call. My parents' relationship with my sister is better than ever, and she's got a fine head on her shoulders.
The pills would worry me. Looking back at high school... A lot of the drinkers and stoners ended up pretty alright in life, but the pill groups don't seem to have seen the same success. Have you considered home drug testing kits? They have some on Amazon that can test for like 12+ of the most widely used drugs.
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Maybe try and contact the parents of the girl he's talking to?
My wife called her....don't know what was said because I'm still self isolating.
I was going to send a PM, but thought I'd put it out there.... keep talking to us. I'm concerned for your son, naturally, but I'm also concerned for YOU. I know you know this, but it bears repeating: you need to be strong and healthy yourself if you're ever going to help your family be strong and healthy. I don't know what works for you, but I think I have an idea what DOESN'T work; make sure YOU'RE good too, brother. I think I speak for all of us here when I say we're here for you.
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Damn, Gary.
I don't know even what to say, but many here have said a lot of good things, and I echo all of them. Stay strong, man.
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Maybe try and contact the parents of the girl he's talking to?
My wife called her....don't know what was said because I'm still self isolating.
I was going to send a PM, but thought I'd put it out there.... keep talking to us. I'm concerned for your son, naturally, but I'm also concerned for YOU. I know you know this, but it bears repeating: you need to be strong and healthy yourself if you're ever going to help your family be strong and healthy. I don't know what works for you, but I think I have an idea what DOESN'T work; make sure YOU'RE good too, brother. I think I speak for all of us here when I say we're here for you.
This was my first thought as well. I have little to offer in parenting or marital advice, I kind of tanked both sides of that coin, but I do know that isolation won't work for anyone, and is especially dangerous for those of us in recovery. You know we'll be around to listen, here and on PMs, but an in person, independent opinion could be vital as well, for you and your family.
Really hoping things work out bud, reading all of this is just heartbreaking.
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Maybe try and contact the parents of the girl he's talking to?
My wife called her....don't know what was said because I'm still self isolating.
I was going to send a PM, but thought I'd put it out there.... keep talking to us. I'm concerned for your son, naturally, but I'm also concerned for YOU. I know you know this, but it bears repeating: you need to be strong and healthy yourself if you're ever going to help your family be strong and healthy. I don't know what works for you, but I think I have an idea what DOESN'T work; make sure YOU'RE good too, brother. I think I speak for all of us here when I say we're here for you.
This. Hopefully the "self-isolating" was just a brief moment to allow everyone to cool off.
Edit... and what RJ said.
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Thanks again fellas. I do appreciate it. I won't lie or sugar coat it....this is whittling away at me but I'm trying to stay strong. Yesterday sucked....there's no getting around that, I just wasn't a very good Father or Husband and I hate that but I am just at my wits end. Will try to be better and stronger today.
Yeah Chad....the self isolation was because when I get worked up I get pretty brutal with how I address people and the things I say to them. And unfortunately the more I love you the worse it is. It's a horrible trait and one that was magnified when I drank but I still tend to do it so I just chose to stay away from them all last night.
Brian....just to be clear, my sons friend was the one we discovered popping pills via that letter. While we are going through it right now with him.....I am not concerned about him drinking or pill popping just knowing his stance on it all. Maybe I'm naive in thinking that...who knows....maybe I should drug test him....I'm pretty unsure of a lot of things right now.
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Regarding the pills, that seems like a cry for help (for the friend) and not someone "doing drugs" if they are just taking random pills they can find. That seems like playing russian roulette. Not sure drug testing makes any sense since it sounds like you may not even know what to look for and may not even be illegal narcotics. However, that is extremely concerning for the friend. That girl, especially at that age, could easily die from taking the wrong medicine and unlike the cutting, won't be leaving scars to show the damage they are doing. That is really scary to me. Make sure all your medicines in your house are safely away from your son.
I can't imagine the toll this is taking on you and your wife. I'm sure tempers are wild right now hence the arguing and isolation now, but I think, you two need to get on the same page to combat what your son is going through. Easier said than done for sure. Sorry for your situation though, this is terrible.
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I would advise against drug testing.
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Thanks again fellas. I do appreciate it. I won't lie or sugar coat it....this is whittling away at me but I'm trying to stay strong. Yesterday sucked....there's no getting around that, I just wasn't a very good Father or Husband and I hate that but I am just at my wits end. Will try to be better and stronger today.
I can't tell you how many times I feel like that on any given day, and my kids are 6 and almost 4. Whether I mishandle something with my kids or my wife, it happens and tomorrow is another day. I'd agree with Stadler - keep talking on here, assuming that you're not also talking to someone in a professional/therapeutic manner. At least you can get stuff out, even it's just on here. We all support you!
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I would advise against drug testing.
Yeah....I don't think we're at that point. One of the points of contention between my wife and I was her searching his room. While I understand why she did and get that we discovered a couple things he was cutting himself with and that letter.....it's going to tear down trust between he and us pretty quick.
We know he's cutting himself....finding 'what' he's doing it with isn't going to make him stop. In fact, he told us that he'd just go to school and "get his trusty pencil that he likes" and do it with that. While I know this is 'serious' and that we need to help him get through this I'm not as concerned as my wife is. She's going crazy with this thing.....whereas maybe it's because I had a period of time in my life where I did this.....I'm just weathering the storm and trying to do and say the right things.
When I discovered last week from a conversation with the Youth Pr. at church that my son and this girl were caught sitting together and talking alone at youth camp this past summer I heard all I needed to hear. In my opinion that just added a layer of 'attention seeking' to his actions because he and this girl are always together at church.....she's always talking to him and looking all concerned and caring. While that may not be the whole reason he's doing it I think that's an element of why he is and the most upset he's been was last week when used the word 'attention' when talking to him about it. It really bugged him.
I'm just a dad trying to read the situation and understand it. I know him, I know his struggles.....I know from his first two 'girlfriends' that he like every other young kid gets all wrapped up in them so when they broke up it was the end of the world. So, part of me thinks he believes he's found a way to keep this girl in his life. I could be WAY off base but again.....at this point I'm grasping at straws.
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Thanks again fellas. I do appreciate it. I won't lie or sugar coat it....this is whittling away at me but I'm trying to stay strong. Yesterday sucked....there's no getting around that, I just wasn't a very good Father or Husband and I hate that but I am just at my wits end. Will try to be better and stronger today.
I can't tell you how many times I feel like that on any given day, and my kids are 6 and almost 4. Whether I mishandle something with my kids or my wife, it happens and tomorrow is another day. I'd agree with Stadler - keep talking on here, assuming that you're not also talking to someone in a professional/therapeutic manner. At least you can get stuff out, even it's just on here. We all support you!
Will do. It's been a few years since I've been to counseling/therapy but I'm thinking it may be time to fire it back up.
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I would advise against drug testing.
Yeah....I don't think we're at that point. One of the points of contention between my wife and I was her searching his room. While I understand why she did and get that we discovered a couple things he was cutting himself with and that letter.....it's going to tear down trust between he and us pretty quick.
I'm with you on the searching his room part, for all the reasons you stated. Once it was done though, confronting him with what you found was (imo) a risky/dangerous thing to do - for the trust issue. As the saying goes, trust is earned in pennies and spent in dollars. You definitely don't want any distance to start forming for any reason. I don't know if this is one of those "right thing for the wrong reasons" or "wrong thing for the right reasons".
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I'd suggest not assuming you know his struggles or know any of this stuff, even if you really do. I'd recommend coming at it from a place of curiosity. If he feels "no one understands" then don't try to convince him otherwise, let him teach and show you.
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I'd suggest not assuming you know his struggles or know any of this stuff, even if you really do. I'd recommend coming at it from a place of curiosity. If he feels "no one understands" then don't try to convince him otherwise, let him teach and show you.
(https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Freplygif.net%2Fi%2F276.gif&hash=cb32784142e014bb94fa03b178272cb4e45e20d9)
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It's like admitting you have an eating issue, gambling issue, drinking issue. He has to realize he needs help and not try to deflect those who care for him.
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I admit I have an issue with that woman in the purple shirt.
(Is that Alison Brie?)
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I admit I have an issue with that woman in the purple shirt.
(Is that Alison Brie?)
yes, it is. What kind of .... issue? :eyebrows:
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I admit I have an issue with that woman in the purple shirt.
(Is that Alison Brie?)
yes, it is. What kind of .... issue? :eyebrows:
Hey now!!
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I admit I have an issue with that woman in the purple shirt.
(Is that Alison Brie?)
Is it cause she's Jewish? You make me sick.
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I admit I have an issue with that woman in the purple shirt.
(Is that Alison Brie?)
Is it cause she's Jewish? You make me sick.
I would not throw her out of bed for eating matzo. :)
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I admit I have an issue with that woman in the purple shirt.
(Is that Alison Brie?)
Is it cause she's Jewish? You make me sick.
I would not throw her out of bed for eating matzo. :)
The matzah balls on you.....
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הכדורים על שניכם.
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הכדורים על שניכם.
Haha. I'm not totally sure that's the word for balls they'd use here.
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I thought we needed a laugh. lol
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If King can't spell in English, what makes you think he can spell in Hebrew? כדורי פלדה
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:lol
Guilty! Lol
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:lol and we did need a laugh...
Gary has a great spot to vent here, and to receive other perspectives about his situation.
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Hey all.....a few of you have reached out individually to ask about how things are going with my son and his situation. Things have been going really well. I think he's turned a corner judging from his overall happiness and demeanor and the way he's been carrying himself. We haven't noticed any cuts for a while now and his old ones have healed up to the point of barely being noticeable.
We talk with him quite a bit....make it a point to really engage with him on a daily basis....not just the 'normal' small talk stuff but get into some deeper conversations. And, we really make it a point to LISTEN to what he's trying to say to us as one of the struggles he's had is being able to express exactly what he means and feels so translating what he's saying and how he's saying it into what he's really 'meaning' is a process.
But, overall.....the past month I'd say has been really positive. We know this is a process and that things haven't just vanished....but I can say with some bit of relief that I feel like we're heading in a good direction. I personally took the approach of just trying to put myself in his shoes and 'get' what he's going through.....and then, explain my point of view and obligations as a parent to him as clearly as possible. Once we turned our instances of communication into calm, non challenging moments from the contentious....high strung moments they were becoming....things really started to improve.
Again....we know this is going to be a process with him but are just relieved that he seems much happier and is communicating with us in a way that wasn't happening a month or two ago.
Thank you to everyone who has offered advice, support and who has reached out and been there for me (us) through this. Truly appreciated :heart
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hearing this put a smile on the faces of me and mrs.jingle this morning. :tup Hope things continues to trend in the right direction, even if there is the odd/minor setback.
Very happy for all the Miller's involved.
btw, I think I'm gonna have to nickname your son "The Professor" ;)
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hearing this put a smile on the faces of me and mrs.jingle this morning. :tup Hope things continues to trend in the right direction, even if there is the odd/minor setback.
Very happy for all the Miller's involved.
btw, I think I'm gonna have to nickname your son "The Professor" ;)
Thanks Chad....like I told you, I appreciate the love and support!
And, I'm extremely proud of how he's coming along! Lots of practice!
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I was thinking about this the other day and was apprehensive to reach out. Glad to hear it Gary.
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I was thinking about this the other day and was apprehensive to reach out. Glad to hear it Gary.
Thanks Brian. I was only being superstitious about not updating because I didn’t want to jinx anything. :lol But im really proud of how far he’s come in a short amount of time. He’s had an awakening of sorts. I’m happy for him.
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Awesome news!
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Glad to hear it bud!
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That's great to hear for certain! Sounds like all of you are attacking the issue head-on together...
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Very good news here. Thanks for the update and I hope all the progress continues for him. Parenting is the toughest job on the planet. Sounds like you are doing a great job.
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Gary, that's great. I've thought of texting you a number of times, but I didn't want to put you in an awkward position. Thought of you and your family, and have been hoping for a positive update.
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Thank you for the sentiments…..I Appreciate you all very much!
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Yeah, I'm with Chad on this. Quietly and with fingers crossed, since I know what it's like to be in that position (i.e. dealing with a child who might be dealing with their own issues that are at certain moments beyond them), I'm grateful you're getting some light at the end of the tunnel.
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So coming off of posting hiatus to say...
Baby girl millahh coming in April!
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(https://media2.giphy.com/media/l3V0wkQ2KKcAeW8Cs/giphy.gif)
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Welcome back, and congrats!
Oh, and great to read that update Gary!
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So coming off of posting hiatus to say...
Baby girl millahh coming in April!
Holy shit, that's great!
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Woot Woot!!
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So coming off of posting hiatus to say...
Baby girl millahh coming in April!
Awesome!
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Hey all.....a few of you have reached out individually to ask about how things are going with my son and his situation. Things have been going really well. I think he's turned a corner judging from his overall happiness and demeanor and the way he's been carrying himself. We haven't noticed any cuts for a while now and his old ones have healed up to the point of barely being noticeable.
We talk with him quite a bit....make it a point to really engage with him on a daily basis....not just the 'normal' small talk stuff but get into some deeper conversations. And, we really make it a point to LISTEN to what he's trying to say to us as one of the struggles he's had is being able to express exactly what he means and feels so translating what he's saying and how he's saying it into what he's really 'meaning' is a process.
But, overall.....the past month I'd say has been really positive. We know this is a process and that things haven't just vanished....but I can say with some bit of relief that I feel like we're heading in a good direction. I personally took the approach of just trying to put myself in his shoes and 'get' what he's going through.....and then, explain my point of view and obligations as a parent to him as clearly as possible. Once we turned our instances of communication into calm, non challenging moments from the contentious....high strung moments they were becoming....things really started to improve.
Again....we know this is going to be a process with him but are just relieved that he seems much happier and is communicating with us in a way that wasn't happening a month or two ago.
Thank you to everyone who has offered advice, support and who has reached out and been there for me (us) through this. Truly appreciated :heart
That is great to hear!! :tup :tup
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So coming off of posting hiatus to say...
Baby girl millahh coming in April!
Congrats!!!
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So coming off of posting hiatus to say...
Baby girl millahh coming in April!
WOW! Awesome!
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Thanks gang!
It was kind of a late decision...both of our ages begin with the number 4, and it was via IVF (a long time neck we'd decided we didn't want kids, so I got snipped). Going through IVF was kind of a drag, it worked on the first try, and we could rest much easier knowing that everything was genetically fine and it was a healthy embryo.
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So coming off of posting hiatus to say...
Baby girl millahh coming in April!
:tup
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It was kind of a late decision...both of our ages begin with the number 4, and it was via IVF (a long time neck we'd decided we didn't want kids, so I got snipped). Going through IVF was kind of a drag, it worked on the first try, and we could rest much easier knowing that everything was genetically fine and it was a healthy embryo.
Congrats man! We did some fertilization treatments a while back, when we crossed the "both of our ages begin with the number 4" threshold, though never went through IVF. We ended up stopping the treatments after maybe 6 months. Then a couple months later, my wife got pregnant. :shrug
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Yeah that's great news Gary.
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I'm very pleased for you, Gary. I hope things continue to improve for your son.
Congrats, Millahh!!
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Lots of great news lately in this thread :tup
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Do any of you guys do Elf on a Shelf?
Wasn't a thing when I was kid, but I've been hearing more and more about it.
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(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/be/a8/e3/bea8e390f52a48934ef15d9129687487.jpg)
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We have been doing the elf for the past few years. It's the first thing on my 4 year old's mind when she gets up, and she is so excited when she finds him. My 10 year old was the same way when she was younger, and still plays along. It's actually gotten to be one of my favorite things about Christmas, and one of the things they anticipate most once we start talking about getting the decorations out.
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My daughter is 6 and is a true believer in the Elf on the Shelf. She was mortified when my 4 year old son accidentally touched him and was scared to give him a goodbye hug tonight, even though a letter from the elf said that she could. They both love waking up and looking for the elf each day. My son is young enough that I can remind him that the elf is watching and he instantly stops being naughty.
I, however, am happy that the elf is going home tonight, so I don't have to move the damn thing again. I had to set an alarm on my phone every night to remind me to move it.
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I love finding new places for him. My wife, who loves kid stuff both as a mom and a teacher, cannot be bothered with it.
This year for the first time ever I forgot to move it once. My eldest is a night owl and often stays up later than me. This year I decided to move it in the morning before they woke up but forgot one day.
And the book is awful.
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I missed the Trooper on the Pooper post. I raise you a Whore in the Drawer
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/8d/cd/38/8dcd38c9c9dfcf5580d5f778a2d00eb5.jpg)
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Fantastic! :hefdaddy
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So, everything with J's pregnancy had been going super smoothly (with a couple of unnerving false alarms)...until today. She drew the short straw apparently, and her gestational diabetes test lit up like a Christmas tree. It's ultimately not that big a deal, but it's a pain in the ass we really didn't need right now. I've spent a good portion of my day talking her off the ledge, that it's not her fault and there was nothing she did to cause this, and nothing she could have done to prevent it. Sigh.
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Keep her focus on her health. Her health is the babies health.
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Damn, that's awful.
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Damn, that's awful.
Thing is, it's actually not all that awful, it just sucks and is going to be burdensome. The only real risk is to the baby getting too big too early, and that is "easily" managed through monitoring, diet, exercise and maybe drugs. But it does bring me to a major frustration that I have (both with stuff around pregnancy & covid):
I know more about this stuff than the vast majority of people. I'm involved in design of clinical trails and interpretation of the data. I spend time trying to figure out nuances of exactly how a drug is working, to get a read on potential for unexpected effects. Lots of teasing out of causation vs. correlation. I have a decent amount of experience in the diabetes clinical space and some in infectious disease. And yet...I have a hard time finding sources for information that is reliable, meaningful, or usable. For gestational diabetes, even reputable sources (e.g. Mayo Clinic, Johns Hopkins) do a lot of spouting of the old party line about causes & prevention (which seems to revolve around shaming of expectant mothers), and don't get into enough mechanistic detail. There is also huge conflation of cause vs. correlation. It took me looking at like five different sources to piece together a proper understanding of the what and why, so I could finally convince J it wasn't her fault and there's nothing she could have done to prevent it.
It's the same thing for Covid...for example, the risk in pregnancy isn't some magical "it will hurt the baby"...rather, it can cause early labor if it's severe in the third trimester, because the baby isn't getting enough oxygen, and says "get me the fuck out of here". But again, I had to piece that together from multiple sources and apply my own understanding of physiology. So much of the medical profession is so paternalistic and so bent on providing the "safe" or "conventional wisdom" recommendations (so they don't get sued...safer to stick to the party line than to take a risk to do the right thing) that it's tough to truly understand what's going on or what makes sense. I think there's lots of good individual doctors, but some of the professional bodies are trash. And communication/messaging that is clear, honest and accurate is sorely missing. It's infuriating that I have to "do my research"* to understand what the hell is actually happening. Like, I agree with most of the recommendations, treatments and public health measures, but the communication around the what the risk is, to whom, and why is just awful.
*I don't mean youtube or FB...I mean reading the literature, looking at case reports, etc.
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So you could say that you’ve done your own research? :neverusethis:
Also, I realize there are worse things to happen medically during pregnancy, but GD does suck.
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So you could say that you’ve done your own research? :neverusethis:
Also, I realize there are worse things to happen medically during pregnancy, but GD does suck.
:neverusethis: indeed. I suppose the more precise way I could have said it was that I use my own professional research skills to make sense of what information is out there, to make a picture out of things that actually makes sense and is free from dumb agendas or lazy logic. But, I saw where my post was going and just steered into it :lol
We're equilibrating on the GD thing...it will suck, but it will likely suck substantially less than the IVF process did, so we're applying that perspective.
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Anyone have kids with asthma or have asthma themselves? My 18 month old is going down that path. He's getting nebulizer medications twice per day, plus additionally every 4-6 hours as needed. But sometimes it works better than others. And I worry about the long terms effects. Also, no fun in COVID times, as a kid with asthma is just going to cough on and off, even when they have their asthma relatively under control. His daycare are thankfully understanding - if he couldn't go every time he had a little cough, one of us would be out of a job because we simply wouldn't have the sick time to keep him home that often.
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Both the jingle.kids have asthma. Son was on puffers (2x/day) for a lot of his youth. Daughter gets very cough-y when the dust builds up in the house - fortunately we have mostly hardwood floors, but the basement is carpeted, and that’s where her bedroom is. Neither has had a serious problem with it though.
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Damn, that's awful.
Thing is, it's actually not all that awful, it just sucks and is going to be burdensome. The only real risk is to the baby getting too big too early, and that is "easily" managed through monitoring, diet, exercise and maybe drugs. But it does bring me to a major frustration that I have (both with stuff around pregnancy & covid):
I know more about this stuff than the vast majority of people. I'm involved in design of clinical trails and interpretation of the data. I spend time trying to figure out nuances of exactly how a drug is working, to get a read on potential for unexpected effects. Lots of teasing out of causation vs. correlation. I have a decent amount of experience in the diabetes clinical space and some in infectious disease. And yet...I have a hard time finding sources for information that is reliable, meaningful, or usable. For gestational diabetes, even reputable sources (e.g. Mayo Clinic, Johns Hopkins) do a lot of spouting of the old party line about causes & prevention (which seems to revolve around shaming of expectant mothers), and don't get into enough mechanistic detail. There is also huge conflation of cause vs. correlation. It took me looking at like five different sources to piece together a proper understanding of the what and why, so I could finally convince J it wasn't her fault and there's nothing she could have done to prevent it.
It's the same thing for Covid...for example, the risk in pregnancy isn't some magical "it will hurt the baby"...rather, it can cause early labor if it's severe in the third trimester, because the baby isn't getting enough oxygen, and says "get me the fuck out of here". But again, I had to piece that together from multiple sources and apply my own understanding of physiology. So much of the medical profession is so paternalistic and so bent on providing the "safe" or "conventional wisdom" recommendations (so they don't get sued...safer to stick to the party line than to take a risk to do the right thing) that it's tough to truly understand what's going on or what makes sense. I think there's lots of good individual doctors, but some of the professional bodies are trash. And communication/messaging that is clear, honest and accurate is sorely missing. It's infuriating that I have to "do my research"* to understand what the hell is actually happening. Like, I agree with most of the recommendations, treatments and public health measures, but the communication around the what the risk is, to whom, and why is just awful.
*I don't mean youtube or FB...I mean reading the literature, looking at case reports, etc.
First and foremost, as someone who has gone through a trying pregnancy (my daughter was early and underweight due to fibroid tumors; I've told the story about the heartless and uncaring "specialist" and facing hard questions during the pregnancy itself. Almost twenty-one years later she is everything I ever could have imagined for my child and I give thanks every day for her) my heart is with you, and I certainly hope and pray that everything goes according to Hoyle for you and your partner.
But as to the topic at hand... you're a well-trained professional who is good at what you do. If you can't (sometimes) make heads nor tails of the morass of information, what are the rest of us supposed to do? Does it wonder anyone - I know it doesn't me - that we have the stories we do about misinformation and bad judgement based on poorly interpreted data?
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Anyone have kids with asthma or have asthma themselves? My 18 month old is going down that path. He's getting nebulizer medications twice per day, plus additionally every 4-6 hours as needed. But sometimes it works better than others. And I worry about the long terms effects. Also, no fun in COVID times, as a kid with asthma is just going to cough on and off, even when they have their asthma relatively under control. His daycare are thankfully understanding - if he couldn't go every time he had a little cough, one of us would be out of a job because we simply wouldn't have the sick time to keep him home that often.
Mine has had severe asthma and allergies for most of her life. At this point - she'll be twenty-one in literally one month - it's almost a non-factor in her life except when she gets serious respiratory illnesses. And sometimes not even then; she had COVID a year ago and it was damn near asymptomatic. Not quite, but compared to the horror stories (including my brother's bout with it about two months ago) it might as well have been.
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Damn, that's awful.
Thing is, it's actually not all that awful, it just sucks and is going to be burdensome. The only real risk is to the baby getting too big too early, and that is "easily" managed through monitoring, diet, exercise and maybe drugs. But it does bring me to a major frustration that I have (both with stuff around pregnancy & covid):
I know more about this stuff than the vast majority of people. I'm involved in design of clinical trails and interpretation of the data. I spend time trying to figure out nuances of exactly how a drug is working, to get a read on potential for unexpected effects. Lots of teasing out of causation vs. correlation. I have a decent amount of experience in the diabetes clinical space and some in infectious disease. And yet...I have a hard time finding sources for information that is reliable, meaningful, or usable. For gestational diabetes, even reputable sources (e.g. Mayo Clinic, Johns Hopkins) do a lot of spouting of the old party line about causes & prevention (which seems to revolve around shaming of expectant mothers), and don't get into enough mechanistic detail. There is also huge conflation of cause vs. correlation. It took me looking at like five different sources to piece together a proper understanding of the what and why, so I could finally convince J it wasn't her fault and there's nothing she could have done to prevent it.
It's the same thing for Covid...for example, the risk in pregnancy isn't some magical "it will hurt the baby"...rather, it can cause early labor if it's severe in the third trimester, because the baby isn't getting enough oxygen, and says "get me the fuck out of here". But again, I had to piece that together from multiple sources and apply my own understanding of physiology. So much of the medical profession is so paternalistic and so bent on providing the "safe" or "conventional wisdom" recommendations (so they don't get sued...safer to stick to the party line than to take a risk to do the right thing) that it's tough to truly understand what's going on or what makes sense. I think there's lots of good individual doctors, but some of the professional bodies are trash. And communication/messaging that is clear, honest and accurate is sorely missing. It's infuriating that I have to "do my research"* to understand what the hell is actually happening. Like, I agree with most of the recommendations, treatments and public health measures, but the communication around the what the risk is, to whom, and why is just awful.
*I don't mean youtube or FB...I mean reading the literature, looking at case reports, etc.
First off - congrats on the new baby. I had GDM with both of mine and both diet controlled. After initially being scared out of my wits the first time I heard I failed my 3 hr glucose test, it actually turned out to be a blessing in disguise insofar as managing my diet/exercise during my pregnancy. I'm convinced that had I not had GDM, I would've gained 50 pounds and given myself permission to eat for 200. LoL. Instead I watched my sugars carefully as I was determined to not go on insulin and only gained approx 30 pounds.
So here is my little bit of unsolicited advice. Protein with every meal is important. I wound up having mad cravings for fruit and would eat an orange or grapefruit for breakfast and then nearly pass out from low sugar before lunch. Having some protein at breakfast made a huge difference.
There is a correlation in the literature around GDM and postpartum depression. And especially if the woman has any kind of depression/anxiety or other mental health issue when not pregnant. It might be wise to have some discussions about that together. Some women are good at keeping emotions bottled up because they fear being judged. Something like 20% of women have diagnosed PPD and it is likely much higher in women who are never diagnosed. There is no shame/stigma but it is important to talk about and get help if needed.
GDM can mean a higher risk of DM2 later in life. My midwife made a point to tell me that it is important to watch my weight and exercise as I got older to avoid that. Diabetes often runs in families so there is a genetic component there. Prevention is key.
As to the Covid risk in pregnancy part; what I'm hearing from my husband's colleagues is that especially with Omicron what they are seeing is more cardiovascular symptoms in the general population but also in the maternal population. So higher risk of cardiac events, clots, strokes, etc. It seems to be a bit more than a risk for early labor/prematurity in baby from the virus. But then again, there is a lot that is still unknown with this disease.
I hope you and your wife have an uneventful remainder of the pregnancy and enjoy that new baby. It's the best (and most terrifying) ride of your life. :heart
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Thank you so much for all of that, Harmony.
Her only risk factors are age and IVF (plus, very little processed food and no soda or fruit juice), and her weight is exactly where it should be. I keep telling her it's like driving, being a good driver doesn't mean you won't get in an accident, because there is so much that is out of your control. But it's certainly possible to increase risk by being a bad driver...
The GDM/T2DM thing is one I've been grappling with a bit. The same risk factors (behavioral and genetic) that can make GDM more likely are also the things that make T2DM more likely. I need to do more digging, but my reflex is to wonder if maybe the increased T2DM risk is correlated to GDM, rather than caused by it...after all, nobody is changing their genes, and people's relationship to food usually doesn't undergo a drastic change after giving birth. Ultimately the course of action is the same (eat right, exercise, monitor), but I just am not really buying that T2DM is the boogeyman lurking around the corner, as long as the GDM is managed properly.
I also appreciate the heads-up on the postpartum depression.
And Covid...ughh. Omicron's proclivity to infect upper respiratory tissue is a game changer, both clinically and for transmission. Could have done without that.
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Man, this has been a fucking grind. for GDM, both the nurse and the nutritionist pretty strongly intimated that it was J's fault she had it (based on exactly no evidence). That sent things spiraling for a good week or so, a lovely blend of shame, paranoia and just plain old fear. We switched nurses (and laid down the law with this one up front) have cancelled future appointments with the nutritionist. Now that we are working with a better nurse, we've been able to get a much better understanding of how to properly, intuitively manage the situation (in a way that doesn't involve fear or shame! Amazing!). Between a more holistic understanding of the management, plus the anxiety being much lower, things are actually working ok now.
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Sounds much better Mill. Hopefully Mom and baby remain healthy.
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Man, this has been a fucking grind. for GDM, both the nurse and the nutritionist pretty strongly intimated that it was J's fault she had it (based on exactly no evidence). That sent things spiraling for a good week or so, a lovely blend of shame, paranoia and just plain old fear. We switched nurses (and laid down the law with this one up front) have cancelled future appointments with the nutritionist. Now that we are working with a better nurse, we've been able to get a much better understanding of how to properly, intuitively manage the situation (in a way that doesn't involve fear or shame! Amazing!). Between a more holistic understanding of the management, plus the anxiety being much lower, things are actually working ok now.
In what way would it be her fault? That is a terrible thing to tell anyone. FFS
As for nutrition advice, request an appointment with a registered dietician. Anyone can call themselves a "nutritionist" with almost no credentials. Good call getting a better team of providers who are supportive. Ain't nobody got time for that kind of BS.
In that vein, at least before covid times you could schedule meet and greet appointments with potential pediatricians. It's important to pick a provider for your child that you trust and feel comfortable with which includes the front office staff and PAs/RNs. If you haven't picked one already, you might want to consider at least a telehealth appointment with prospective providers and make an informed decision.
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Man, this has been a fucking grind. for GDM, both the nurse and the nutritionist pretty strongly intimated that it was J's fault she had it (based on exactly no evidence). That sent things spiraling for a good week or so, a lovely blend of shame, paranoia and just plain old fear. We switched nurses (and laid down the law with this one up front) have cancelled future appointments with the nutritionist. Now that we are working with a better nurse, we've been able to get a much better understanding of how to properly, intuitively manage the situation (in a way that doesn't involve fear or shame! Amazing!). Between a more holistic understanding of the management, plus the anxiety being much lower, things are actually working ok now.
In what way would it be her fault? That is a terrible thing to tell anyone. FFS
As for nutrition advice, request an appointment with a registered dietician. Anyone can call themselves a "nutritionist" with almost no credentials. Good call getting a better team of providers who are supportive. Ain't nobody got time for that kind of BS.
In that vein, at least before covid times you could schedule meet and greet appointments with potential pediatricians. It's important to pick a provider for your child that you trust and feel comfortable with which includes the front office staff and PAs/RNs. If you haven't picked one already, you might want to consider at least a telehealth appointment with prospective providers and make an informed decision.
I think some providers just like to traffic in shame, blame and fear because it makes their job easier, and they don't have to see their patients as unique human beings (and, nursing has a huge mean-girl problem).
In talking w/ my therapist yesterday, she actually said how boundary/expectation setting with providers is going to be important as we get closer to delivery and once Baby Girl is here, so this is good practice. Good idea on starting to vet pediatricians now. And we'll wee if our OB has any recs, the whole practice is great, guessing they have some connections/recommendations.
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Hopefully everyone in the thread is doing well. This is a wonderful thread and we cover a lot of important shit here.
This popped up in my Youtube feed and it cracked me up. I thought I'd drop it here since it has to do with Marriage..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNQ2CHEL3Tw
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Hopefully everyone in the thread is doing well. This is a wonderful thread and we cover a lot of important shit here.
This popped up in my Youtube feed and it cracked me up. I thought I'd drop it here since it has to do with Marriage..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNQ2CHEL3Tw
THIS is the host of Family Feud!!!
(https://townsquare.media/site/295/files/2020/06/Feud-Dawson.jpg?w=1200&h=0&zc=1&s=0&a=t&q=89)
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Well played.
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Well played.
:biggrin:
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I like how some of those "awful" answers actually made the board.
(https://i.imgflip.com/gcq05.jpg)
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I'm at work so I can't get too in depth....but, after a few months of what I believed to be pretty positive movement with our son, my wife found a kitchen knife stashed in his room last night and we noticed some new cuts this morning. It had been quite some time since we'd seen this and I 'thought' things were going well. He has been really resistant to talking this past week and basically told my wife this morning the only reason he won't kill himself is because he's to chicken too and he doesn't want to make other people sad....but that he hates himself.
I had to sprint off to work after hearing this as I was leaving for work and so I've used it to escape today.....me writing this right now is just for me to remind myself this is real and I'm not imagining it. I'm pretty shell shocked at the moment because it seems like things just turned on a dime this past week.
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I'm at work so I can't get too in depth....but, after a few months of what I believed to be pretty positive movement with our son, my wife found a kitchen knife stashed in his room last night and we noticed some new cuts this morning. It had been quite some time since we'd seen this and I 'thought' things were going well. He has been really resistant to talking this past week and basically told my wife this morning the only reason he won't kill himself is because he's to chicken too and he doesn't want to make other people sad....but that he hates himself.
I had to sprint off to work after hearing this as I was leaving for work and so I've used it to escape today.....me writing this right now is just for me to remind myself this is real and I'm not imagining it. I'm pretty shell shocked at the moment because it seems like things just turned on a dime this past week.
Man... I'm sorry Gary. My wife and I were just thinking/talking about you.
There has to be a catalyst... something that has happened in the past few days to trigger it again. Perhaps you guys will be able to dig and find out what it is... then you can face it with him. There has to be some variable(s) that you can pin-point that's made him regress this quickly...
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Jesus, Gary. Not even sure what to say, man. Is this the point where you get an involuntary hold or something at a psych facility that specializes with that sort of thing?
There has to be a catalyst... something that has happened in the past few days to trigger it again. Perhaps you guys will be able to dig and find out what it is... then you can face it with him. There has to be some variable(s) that you can pin-point that's made him regress this quickly...
I'm not an expert in the academia portion, but I am well-versed in having to wander around some park places in my head from time to time. I don't think there has to be a catalyst. There might not have been any trigger or regression. It's entirely possible little to no progress was made and the improvements were a front. I do it regularly, and have done it for months at a time on a number of occasions. Every ounce of energy goes into preserving the act as to not tipoff anyone around me that I'm secretly screaming inside. It's a heavy feeling, and there are breaking points. I don't know if I'd call that a regression, more like a crack in the facade.
And Gary, I really hope that's not the case, but it might be something to consider. I hope this doesn't read as me questioning anything you and your wife have done to this point, or me saying you've handled this in any kind of incorrect or mislead capacity.
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Jesus, Gary. Not even sure what to say, man. Is this the point where you get an involuntary hold or something at a psych facility that specializes with that sort of thing?
There has to be a catalyst... something that has happened in the past few days to trigger it again. Perhaps you guys will be able to dig and find out what it is... then you can face it with him. There has to be some variable(s) that you can pin-point that's made him regress this quickly...
I'm not an expert in the academia portion, but I am well-versed in having to wander around some park places in my head from time to time. I don't think there has to be a catalyst. There might not have been any trigger or regression. It's entirely possible little to no progress was made and the improvements were a front. I do it regularly, and have done it for months at a time on a number of occasions. Every ounce of energy goes into preserving the act as to not tipoff anyone around me that I'm secretly screaming inside. It's a heavy feeling, and there are breaking points. I don't know if I'd call that a regression, more like a crack in the facade.
And Gary, I really hope that's not the case, but it might be something to consider. I hope this doesn't read as me questioning anything you and your wife have done to this point, or me saying you've handled this in any kind of incorrect or mislead capacity.
I actually think that's great advice and something to look into, if you haven't already at some point - has some of the prior success been a facade where he is just making sure that you aren't worried about him, or was there a true positive change for a while?
My heart's out to you though. My kids are still young and parts of me dread when they get older and their focus is on more than just the fun, happy things in their life.
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I can completely see if he's just been internalizing things and trying to maintain an appearance and it just got to be too much. As Brian mentioned, I've done it....he's done it.....we've probably all done it. He was really upset monday and I asked him what was wrong and he said that there was a real 'jerk' at school who was basically making fun of him and his buddy at lunch. He said that he wanted to punch the kid but he just told his buddy to ignore him and they did and walked away.
I told him that I was super proud of him and that I knew it was tough to ignore people like that.....I said people like that usually get what they deserve and that was coming to them but that he gave great advice to his buddy and that he did the right thing.....just made sure he knew I was proud of the way he handled himself. We were standing in the kitchen and he turned to me and said "thanks dad" and gave me a legit big hug....the really good ones that get more fleeting as the kids age. It was (I thought) a real good moment.
I know he's going through some stuff and that he is dealing with realizing he's just not like the other kids. He's very sensitive and caring....empathetic to a fault I think....for a lack of a better term he's not in the 'cool' crowd and I think that bothers him. He does have a good group of buddies that he plays music with and hangs out with....but, he just can't shake this sadness and depression that he's clearly feeling. It kills me that I can't say or do anything to make this easier on him to break out of.
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Gary, I don't even know what to say. That's heartbreaking. Thinking about you, man.
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I feel like someone just kicked me in the nuts. I can't imagine what you and mrsmillerdrake are feeling like. I know we all wish we had *that* piece of advice that would magically make everything better.
I will say this, and this comes from experience from some pretty vicious fights between me and mrs.jingle. At our worst, we say things that we don't really mean and feel - even to the lengths of saying we REALLY mean/feel it at the time of our low points. I hope/pray that's the situation with your son... that he really isn't suicidal, but that it's a feeling that sometimes feels absolutely real, but it isn't. Not sure if that makes sense, but regardless... it's something you have to handle with the utmost sincerity.
Have you guys informed the school and his teachers - I'm not sure if that's proper protocol, but to have as many caring and empathic eyes on him when you and your wife aren't around can't be a bad thing??
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I feel like someone just kicked me in the nuts. I can't imagine what you and mrsmillerdrake are feeling like. I know we all wish we had *that* piece of advice that would magically make everything better.
This times a brazilian. I wish so bad that I had the magic words for you.
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I feel like someone just kicked me in the nuts. I can't imagine what you and mrsmillerdrake are feeling like. I know we all wish we had *that* piece of advice that would magically make everything better.
This times a brazilian. I wish so bad that I had the magic words for you.
This is me. I must have thought about posting in this thread a dozen times yesterday, but in the end everything I had to offer just sounded hollow. Love you, Gary, is about the best I can say.
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I feel like someone just kicked me in the nuts. I can't imagine what you and mrsmillerdrake are feeling like. I know we all wish we had *that* piece of advice that would magically make everything better.
This times a brazilian. I wish so bad that I had the magic words for you.
This is me. I must have thought about posting in this thread a dozen times yesterday, but in the end everything I had to offer just sounded hollow. Love you, Gary, is about the best I can say.
This. The little post I ended up making came after about 6 starts and stops.
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Guys....I do appreciate all of you and don't expect that there is a whole lot one can say about this situation. Just know that I appreciate what you all have said and love that this community is what it is.
He and I had a great hour or so in his room last night just talking. I didn't bring up any of the new marks or the comments that he made the other day.....I just talked to him about anything and everything else and made it a point that he knew and understood how much I (we) love him and that he's a great kid. I made sure there were laughs and hugs and anything to try and remind him that he's loved. That's about all I could think of doing that I had real control over.
I will say that when I was telling him all the great things I love about him he would deny each one.....so somewhere along the line he's developed a real dislike for himself. I don't know when and where it happened but I'm just hoping to crack that shell somehow to help him realize what a good kid and person he is. Anyway......again, thank you all.
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If it matters, the DTF crew are rooting for him - and I want to see a cover of La Villa Strangiato some day!
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I sometimes think I'm a tough nut, but I'm nothing seeing you lads with kids dealing with these sorts of things. Next level. I can't offer anything except thoughts and well wishes.
Although, Gary, with the situation, you are doing an incredible job with this by the sounds of it. Mad respect and admiration.
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I feel like someone just kicked me in the nuts. I can't imagine what you and mrsmillerdrake are feeling like. I know we all wish we had *that* piece of advice that would magically make everything better.
This times a brazilian. I wish so bad that I had the magic words for you.
This is me. I must have thought about posting in this thread a dozen times yesterday, but in the end everything I had to offer just sounded hollow. Love you, Gary, is about the best I can say.
This. The little post I ended up making came after about 6 starts and stops.
This
I sometimes think I'm a tough nut, but I'm nothing seeing you lads with kids dealing with these sorts of things. Next level. I can't offer anything except thoughts and well wishes.
Although, Gary, with the situation, you are doing an incredible job with this by the sounds of it. Mad respect and admiration.
and this, minus thinking I'm a tough nut
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I feel like someone just kicked me in the nuts. I can't imagine what you and mrsmillerdrake are feeling like. I know we all wish we had *that* piece of advice that would magically make everything better.
This times a brazilian. I wish so bad that I had the magic words for you.
This is me. I must have thought about posting in this thread a dozen times yesterday, but in the end everything I had to offer just sounded hollow. Love you, Gary, is about the best I can say.
This. The little post I ended up making came after about 6 starts and stops.
This
I sometimes think I'm a tough nut, but I'm nothing seeing you lads with kids dealing with these sorts of things. Next level. I can't offer anything except thoughts and well wishes.
Although, Gary, with the situation, you are doing an incredible job with this by the sounds of it. Mad respect and admiration.
and this, minus thinking I'm a tough nut
Lol.
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(https://i.imgur.com/T4YkjLr.jpeg)
Ivy joined us on Sunday morning :)
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Wonderful!!
Best of luck, brother!
Enjoy. It really does go by fast.
Take pictures and give her a lifetime of childhood memories.
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Sound Advice (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XyvS0zXsDX4)
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Congrats!
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Just curious, when do you guys think its a good age to give your child a cell phone?
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Just curious, when do you guys think its a good age to give your child a cell phone?
29.
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Just curious, when do you guys think its a good age to give your child a cell phone?
We gave ours cell phones when they were 14/13/11. (It’s impossible to shield the 11 year old from the teenage environment) they don’t have social media but are allowed to use them freely as long as their grades are good and they’re behaving etc etc.
I think really it’s a family to family……kid to kid situation.
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Just curious, when do you guys think its a good age to give your child a cell phone?
I got my first phone when I was 12. Granted, it wasn't capable of texting, had a green and black screen, and the most intense form of entertainment it could deliver was Snake at like 4fps. My parents got it for me because I was entering high school and would be participating in after school clubs, and it made it way easier at the end of the day when trying to figure out who would need transport and when.
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Just curious, when do you guys think its a good age to give your child a cell phone?
I got my first phone when I was 12. Granted, it wasn't capable of texting, had a green and black screen, and the most intense form of entertainment it could deliver was Snake at like 4fps. My parents got it for me because I was entering high school and would be participating in after school clubs, and it made it way easier at the end of the day when trying to figure out who would need transport and when.
High School at 12 years old?!?! Who are you, Doogie Howser??
We gave ours their first at 14 when they entered high school (at a normal age for 9th grade ;))
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I plan to wait as long as humanly possible. We have one cell phone that sort fo serves as a house phone that my kids can use if we're gone or if they want to text me while I'm at work or something. But there are no apps or internet access for them on it. I personally think having a smart phone and being on social media has been a very large net negative to both me and my wife and I want to protect my kids from that as long as possible.
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Just curious, when do you guys think its a good age to give your child a cell phone?
I got my first phone when I was 12. Granted, it wasn't capable of texting, had a green and black screen, and the most intense form of entertainment it could deliver was Snake at like 4fps. My parents got it for me because I was entering high school and would be participating in after school clubs, and it made it way easier at the end of the day when trying to figure out who would need transport and when.
High School at 12 years old?!?! Who are you, Doogie Howser??
We gave ours their first at 14 when they entered high school (at a normal age for 9th grade ;))
I literally had the exact same thing typed out. :lol But I decided not to post it.
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For us it was last year (age 10) as she was going to multiple places during the day due to Covid/school and we wanted to be able to keep in touch. Eventually all of her friends got phones - possibly for the same reason - and there was no going back. I am more strict with regards to the phone than Mrs. Cool, but it balances out in ways she is more strict than me. I told her nothing on her phone is private and to assume I will see and read everything on it. And I reassured her that while I trust her, I do not trust anyone else, least of all people on the internet.
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He's got one now at 14, sort of by necessity, since we have a co-parenting situation. I have to say, though, the monitoring is an almost impossible task. Maybe I'm just technologically backwards, but with a deep and abiding respect for everyone here, I sort of "SMH" at the "we monitor it". Yeah we can - and do - go in to the phone periodically, but I feel like if there's something he WANTS to hide, it will be hidden.
Thankfully, my stepson is... I don't know how to put it. He's rather forthcoming; he doesn't have a ton of guile, in that way. He certainly has that instinct when something is "wrong", and he's not above hiding things (he came out to get "juice" the other day and was walking back with one arm stiff at his side. I said "what's up with the arm?" "Nothing". "Let me see your hands!" and out came four cookies. :) ) But there are other competing forces that sort of override that over time. I feel like we eventually know most of what's going on, simply out of attrition.
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Just curious, when do you guys think its a good age to give your child a cell phone?
I got my first phone when I was 12. Granted, it wasn't capable of texting, had a green and black screen, and the most intense form of entertainment it could deliver was Snake at like 4fps. My parents got it for me because I was entering high school and would be participating in after school clubs, and it made it way easier at the end of the day when trying to figure out who would need transport and when.
High School at 12 years old?!?! Who are you, Doogie Howser??
We gave ours their first at 14 when they entered high school (at a normal age for 9th grade ;))
I literally had the exact same thing typed out. :lol But I decided not to post it.
Shit. I forgot how to math. I was 13 when I entered high school. I got my first phone when I was 13.
I have a late birthday (Nov 30). So I was 13 for the first 3 months of my freshman year.
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Just curious, when do you guys think its a good age to give your child a cell phone?
I got my first phone when I was 12. Granted, it wasn't capable of texting, had a green and black screen, and the most intense form of entertainment it could deliver was Snake at like 4fps. My parents got it for me because I was entering high school and would be participating in after school clubs, and it made it way easier at the end of the day when trying to figure out who would need transport and when.
High School at 12 years old?!?! Who are you, Doogie Howser??
We gave ours their first at 14 when they entered high school (at a normal age for 9th grade ;))
I literally had the exact same thing typed out. :lol But I decided not to post it.
Shit. I forgot how to math. I was 13 when I entered high school. I got my first phone when I was 13.
I have a late birthday (Nov 30). So I was 13 for the first 3 months of my freshman year.
Ok, that makes sense. My b-day is 11/19, so was the same.
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So, I've tried a couple times to make this post but it has been difficult because I was trying to explain every last detail as to circumstance and 'what' has happened over the past week....but, it's entirely too much to try and get out at once. Bottom line is, last Saturday my wife and I had to make the gut wrenching decision to have our son admitted to the hospital. We'd avoided having to make that decision for a few months now even at the behest of his counselor.....but, Saturday the situation got pretty scary and we really had no other choice.
Good news is that he did not attempt suicide or have any real bad instance of self harm.....it was primarily a vocal thing with a ton of anger that led to him actually getting physical with my wife and myself....which led to just a horrible afternoon that ultimately ending in us having no choice but to get him the help he needs. He's had an overall 'good' experience with his stay (which they told us initially would be 3-5 days) to which we're looking at getting him back home tomorrow and then moving forward with an pretty intense outpatient program.
Today is the first day I can even think about this all without losing all control and crying deeply. To say my heart was and is broken seeing the pain my first born son is in is an understatement....and it's challenged me emotionally because I can't help but think that there's something more I could have done for him....that I've let him down as a father....somehow I've not given him everything he needs. I don't think I've felt this level of sadness ever and I thought the phrase 'cry yourself to sleep' was something that was only said in movies and never happened in the real world.
Outside of a couple bad decisions that he's made over the past few months.....decisions that are 'typical' teenage crap like smoking, making out and even yes...having sex with his girlfriend...getting wrapped up in a massive vape pen cartridge sharing underground at his high school.....things that I consider just having to deal with a teenage son in a crazy world.....the scariest thing and the reason we had to do what we did was his insistence that he was indeed going to kill himself the first chance he got, and the fact that his anger graduated from some shouting (which we can handle) to him actually assaulting both of us. Of which, the moment we got to see him for the first time on Monday he was deeply apologetic and ashamed for doing so. He said he had no idea why he acted like that. To say that was out of character for him is not accurate enough, I'd have never believed that would happen coming from him. Just shows me how deep this issue is running for him.
We're just trying to focus on helping him out of this depression he's in....helping him focus on all the great things in his life....helping him understand that we all make mistakes and aren't perfect and that you don't need to carry guilt and shame for just being human....just willing to try anything at this point to help him find 'hope' because he has none at the moment.
Again, there are more details to this that may come out in conversation but I just don't know that it's all that important to the story. Like I said, we avoided that scenario for a while now because I know how drastic a measure that is and am aware that this changes everything for a while now. There is a lot of trust to rebuild on both sides now but we couldn't take the chance given the climate we found ourselves in last Saturday but as I said....I can't envision that there was any other option considering everything at hand. If there was....we didn't see it.
Anyway.....as I've said all along through this.....I appreciate you all with the comments and advice and the support. I count on this community to be able to share things like this and be able to vent and decompress and at the same time get some wisdom shared from others here.
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So, I've tried a couple times to make this post but it has been difficult because I was trying to explain every last detail as to circumstance and 'what' has happened over the past week....but, it's entirely too much to try and get out at once. Bottom line is, last Saturday my wife and I had to make the gut wrenching decision to have our son admitted to the hospital. We'd avoided having to make that decision for a few months now even at the behest of his counselor.....but, Saturday the situation got pretty scary and we really had no other choice.
Good news is that he did not attempt suicide or have any real bad instance of self harm.....it was primarily a vocal thing with a ton of anger that led to him actually getting physical with my wife and myself....which led to just a horrible afternoon that ultimately ending in us having no choice but to get him the help he needs. He's had an overall 'good' experience with his stay (which they told us initially would be 3-5 days) to which we're looking at getting him back home tomorrow and then moving forward with an pretty intense outpatient program.
Today is the first day I can even think about this all without losing all control and crying deeply. To say my heart was and is broken seeing the pain my first born son is in is an understatement....and it's challenged me emotionally because I can't help but think that there's something more I could have done for him....that I've let him down as a father....somehow I've not given him everything he needs. I don't think I've felt this level of sadness ever and I thought the phrase 'cry yourself to sleep' was something that was only said in movies and never happened in the real world.
Outside of a couple bad decisions that he's made over the past few months.....decisions that are 'typical' teenage crap like smoking, making out and even yes...having sex with his girlfriend...getting wrapped up in a massive vape pen cartridge sharing underground at his high school.....things that I consider just having to deal with a teenage son in a crazy world.....the scariest thing and the reason we had to do what we did was his insistence that he was indeed going to kill himself the first chance he got, and the fact that his anger graduated from some shouting (which we can handle) to him actually assaulting both of us. Of which, the moment we got to see him for the first time on Monday he was deeply apologetic and ashamed for doing so. He said he had no idea why he acted like that. To say that was out of character for him is not accurate enough, I'd have never believed that would happen coming from him. Just shows me how deep this issue is running for him.
We're just trying to focus on helping him out of this depression he's in....helping him focus on all the great things in his life....helping him understand that we all make mistakes and aren't perfect and that you don't need to carry guilt and shame for just being human....just willing to try anything at this point to help him find 'hope' because he has none at the moment.
Again, there are more details to this that may come out in conversation but I just don't know that it's all that important to the story. Like I said, we avoided that scenario for a while now because I know how drastic a measure that is and am aware that this changes everything for a while now. There is a lot of trust to rebuild on both sides now but we couldn't take the chance given the climate we found ourselves in last Saturday but as I said....I can't envision that there was any other option considering everything at hand. If there was....we didn't see it.
Anyway.....as I've said all along through this.....I appreciate you all with the comments and advice and the support. I count on this community to be able to share things like this and be able to vent and decompress and at the same time get some wisdom shared from others here.
I think your feelings are normal even though from my outsider's perspective, I think your conclusion, "I've let him down as a father" is wrong. You realized you were at a place where you could no longer manage his needs on your own and you got help for him. That is exactly what good parenting looks like. It wasn't the easy way. It was what was needed. And the road will be long and there will be challenges ahead but whatever happens, don't fall into the trap of self-blame. Your son is lucky to have you and your wife in his corner. Full stop.
I will continue to hold you all in my thoughts. :heart
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Thank you Harmony. While I 'intellectually' know that we've been there as parents for him and have essentially done what we can.....that feeling of 'have I done enough?' still creeps around my mind and soul. I do appreciate you reiterating that sentiment that my close friends and family have been reminding us of this week. It's just really hard to hold onto it right now.
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Very hard to read that, but I really hope the hospital stay is exactly what your son needs and this can be the bottom point of the situation. I feel so sorry for him and the toll it's having on you and your wife. As Harmony stated, you are not letting him down and you are doing everything you can so don't beat yourself up too much.
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...and it's challenged me emotionally because I can't help but think that there's something more I could have done for him....that I've let him down as a father....somehow I've not given him everything he needs.
Far be it from me to judge you, brother, but what I'm reading is you're doing everything in your power to help your son.
I'll be thinking about you, but as much as I hope this all works out, I also admire your courage and strength. I don't know that I could have done what you did.
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G-man... one thing that's been swirling in my mind since we talked is is that you and the rest of the Miller's also get the help and support that you all need. While your eldest is the one with the deepest troubles and most urgent need of help and support, that doesn't absolve you and your wife and other kids of needing help too. Is that something that is in the cards?
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G-man... one thing that's been swirling in my mind since we talked is is that you and the rest of the Miller's also get the help and support that you all need. While your eldest is the one with the deepest troubles and most urgent need of help and support, that doesn't absolve you and your wife and other kids of needing help too. Is that something that is in the cards?
It is…..this is something Adami made pretty clear to me that’s super important as well. Just haven’t lined it up. I know we need to though
Appreciate the sentiments everyone
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Hang in there Gary. We are here for you and your family.
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Gary, to echo what I said the other day and others have said here, stay strong and let us know if there is anything any of us can do.
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Gary, that was heartbreaking to read as I'm sure it was to write nevermind live through. I am so sorry your family is dealing with this.
Please please please make sure your guns are unavailable to your son. Not sure what the situation is. Does he have a key/combo? Are you taking daily inventory of them? Does he know if/where you keep one in your bedroom for possible intruders?
Also, did any of the councilors cue you guys into anything that's going on with your son?
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That was a sad read. I'm not a father but from what you've told us, you've hardly failed as a father, quite the opposite.
All the best and hang in there.
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I've had this page open for 5 minutes now and still have no idea what to say. :(
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Again everyone…..thank you all for the comments and support.
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It's clear to me you care deeply for your son and wish to do him the best. Your guilt is understandable, but I feel it's unwarranted. You and your family deserve the best. I hope things improve soon.
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Again everyone…..thank you all for the comments and support.
You have my support as well! I know exactly how you feel when you mention that you have feelings of not doing enough as a father. I feel that way all the time with some of my kids' behavior, as I know they're just emulating what they've seen me do and the guilt that I feel is overwhelming.
I'm glad that you have taken these steps now to help your son - that's the most important thing that you can do as a parent.
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Damn, Gary. Breaks my heart to read that. I can't say much else that others haven't said already. Wishing the best for you and the fam. Truly.
One thing I can add, and I'm not sure what there even is to do with this info, but I kind of feel obligated to say it. I've dealt with depression and rage issues for a long time, my worst stint being the year or two leading up to me falling off the balcony (legit fall - not a secret suicide attempt or something). I've never hit a person, but I destroyed plenty of things in anger. My parents did literally everything in their power while I was growing up to give my sister and I the best chances possible in life. They were by all measures near perfect parents, and still, both my sister and I had our moments. Any of the rage I used to display is long gone and far behind me. I've learned that it's a useless exercise. The depression still persists, but that's under control and just something I've come to terms with given the complexities of life and how I view the world.
I never mentioned any of it to my dad, the primary reason being I didn't want my parents, my dad especially, feeling like he fucked up somewhere along the way. I never broached the subject with him until I basically failed out of college for the first time. And even then, I had to do it through an email from campus because I was too ashamed to look him in the eye. I never mentioned suicidal thoughts or anything, but did confess that I'd regularly think that it wouldn't be bad if my car were to end up being pushed into a bridge column or something. A lot of the weight I was carrying was trying to hide it from my parents because of how much they sacrificed for me, and the thought of somehow asking for even more help, especially at the age of 18, made me think I was failing them, and in turn making them think they failed me. It was this weird mental runaround that I couldn't shake. My mom has never found out about that email, but it was probably the most important email I've ever sent. My dad randomly re-replied to it years later after I bought my first house saying how proud he was of me, as well as a bunch of other nice things.
What you're supposed to do with that story, I'm not sure. But I'm wondering if your son could be feeling similarly to how I used to. I guess what I'm trying to get at is you can't beat yourself up. I've known you long enough to know you're a solid guy with nothing but the best intentions for your family, and you've said a lot of things on this board over the years that I've made mental notes of in the event I have kids of my own one day (that goes for a lot of you). The brain is a fickle place, and despite the control you have over your home, there are still so many variables that go into an individual's thoughts that are beyond your control. You didn't fail your kid in any way. This thread and your candor proves it, imo. Ask yourself the question "where would my son be had I not done all of these things?". Perhaps much worse than what you're seeing now.
I feel like I'm just rambling at this point, but let your son know that he hasn't failed you at all. And while it might be hard to convey, let him know you don't think you've failed him either. It drove me mad thinking that my actions made my father feel like a failure. How you do that, I'm not really sure, but just something to keep in mind.
All the best man :heart
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That's a great share, Chino.
You and I don't interact much, but I must say that pretty much every post you make on any serious topic is very thoughtful and insightful.
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Appreciate that post Brian....means a lot and has some great perspective from a point of view and mindset I haven't had in quite some time. Thanks for that.
I will say that since you guys aren't really around my son at all and don't 'know' him.....his self confidence and esteem has always been low. He's always been one of those kids that is 'on the outside' and while me, my wife...brothers...his grandparents etc etc.....love the heck out of who is is and the person he is I think he's always struggled because he's smart enough to realize he's not in the 'in' crowd. Jumping to High School this year was really tough for him both academically and socially. I'd imaging that entering into the realization that you might not be quite like the other 'normal' kids can lead to some anger issues which I can understand, and I can understand him wanting to ignore me when I tell him that he's in reality....an awesome kid with a great heart. I'm sure that's tough to hold onto when he's navigating the high school world....especially in today's crazy ass culture and atmosphere.
He did make a group of friends that are really good kids....they're all similar in the fact that they're not the 'in' crowd but more power to them. He's just never been able to build up that esteem and confidence. Whereas, my other two sons are brimming with both. I know he puts a ton of pressure on himself to do well in school and when he makes mistakes in general he beats himself up and I know for a fact he carries that guilt and shame around....he flat out will tell you he does not like himself. It's heartbreaking but I'm 100% committed to help him overcome this.
I'm at home today because we're supposed to be able to go get him here in a bit and I cannot wait!
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Gary, I remember that feeling as well. I think over time, I decided that I would just be me. I had friends that were jocks(self explanatory), heads(Stoners), scholastic(nerds) & musicians.
I had all sides telling me, "Why are you friends with them?" I always said, "Good people are good people."
I hope you son finds the clarity like I did as a teen and realize to be me. Not to what I should think I should be.
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I had all sides telling me, "Why are you friends with them?"
I used to hear that too.
High school can be a bitch. Everything just seems so magnified and intense these days.
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For sure. You want to fit in but, I found out that the people who accept you for you are your true friends.
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Gary, I remember that feeling as well. I think over time, I decided that I would just be me. I had friends that were jocks(self explanatory), heads(Stoners), scholastic(nerds) & musicians.
I had all sides telling me, "Why are you friends with them?" I always said, "Good people are good people."
I hope you son finds the clarity like I did as a teen and realize to be me. Not to what I should think I should be.
That's how I was. I was on the wrestling team, but not cool enough to hang out with the jocks. I was a metalhead, but not delinquent enough to hang out with the other metalheads. I never belonged to any popular group in school. Over time, I became comfortable being me, going to concerts alone, and bucking whatever was trendy in favor of just doing what I liked.
I met my best friends in college and had the time of my life - those were the guys whose weddings I stood up in, not anyone from my high school. I left my hometown and moved away when the kids from school became the new townies, staying in town to raise their own kids there. I wanted no part of being around them after being shunned in school.
I always remind people of that - that you can always find friends later in life as well as when you're young.
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Gary, I remember that feeling as well. I think over time, I decided that I would just be me. I had friends that were jocks(self explanatory), heads(Stoners), scholastic(nerds) & musicians.
I had all sides telling me, "Why are you friends with them?" I always said, "Good people are good people."
I hope you son finds the clarity like I did as a teen and realize to be me. Not to what I should think I should be.
That's how I was. I was on the wrestling team, but not cool enough to hang out with the jocks. I was a metalhead, but not delinquent enough to hang out with the other metalheads. I never belonged to any popular group in school. Over time, I became comfortable being me, going to concerts alone, and bucking whatever was trendy in favor of just doing what I liked.
I met my best friends in college and had the time of my life - those were the guys whose weddings I stood up in, not anyone from my high school. I left my hometown and moved away when the kids from school became the new townies, staying in town to raise their own kids there. I wanted no part of being around them after being shunned in school.
I always remind people of that - that you can always find friends later in life as well as when you're young.
it's been my experience that people more often get their lifelong friends from post-secondary school vs high-school (or elementary). Though, I've got mine from DTF. ;)
High School is just such an ... awkward? ... time of life to form those kinds of mature and lasting connections and relationships. I could be off base here, but I know more people who have more friendships in their adult years stem from college vs high school.
Not that this is a good message for Gary's son, but high school was a period of my life that I tolerated and just made it through; University was where I thrived.
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...but high school was a period of my life that I tolerated and just made it through; University was where I thrived.
I wouldn't say high school was a time I merely "tolerated," but I can identify with your major point. Same here, for the most part.
Every time this thread is bumped, I cringe a bit and have to fight off an urge to pop in and remind everyone that this was not meant to be a serious thread at all, and was started just tongue in cheek to laughingly vent about a specific situation. But if others are getting something out of actually discussing things that are in line with my far-too-serious thread title, that's great. :tup
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Every time this thread is bumped, I cringe a bit and have to fight off an urge to pop in and remind everyone that this was not meant to be a serious thread at all, and was started just tongue in cheek to laughingly vent about a specific situation. But if others are getting something out of actually discussing things that are in line with my far-too-serious thread title, that's great. :tup
Sorry Bosk...I don't know if I was the one who derailed it a while back or not.....I think maybe I was....I know at the time I was looking for a thread to vent and decompress in and this title seemed like the place to do it.
Just looked at the OG post and yeah.....definitely a 180 from the intention I guess.
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Hey, that's okay. Like I said, it wasn't the intent, but if people find it actually helpful, that's great.
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For sure. You want to fit in but, I found out that the people who accept you for you are your true friends.
I figured that out, too, but I wish I figured that out about 20 years earlier...
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For sure. You want to fit in but, I found out that the people who accept you for you are your true friends.
I figured that out, too, but I wish I figured that out about 20 years earlier...
A lot of those things my parents would tell me as a kid, that as a kid you can't really relate or even believe, were true. Things like high school does not define who you are. But when you're a child, it's all you know so it's hard to see and understand how life plays out. I just don't know how you can convey the importance of yourself over trying to be "cool" to a kid, because I know from myself, it's just not something you can comprehend at that age.
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...but high school was a period of my life that I tolerated and just made it through; University was where I thrived.
I wouldn't say high school was a time I merely "tolerated," but I can identify with your major point. Same here, for the most part.
Tolerated wasn't the best / most accurate word - there were more than a few good/great moments, but looking back on it now, there was more aspects of it that I am more than happy to have left far in the rearview mirror.
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I think I'm in pretty rare company when I can say that five of my closest friends I've known for over 25-30 years. Two of them I've known and been buddies with since second grade....and the other three we met in 7th grade when elementary schools combined for middle school.
I talk to them daily on our group texts....and the app 'Marco Polo'......we all see each other at least once a month, sometimes more. I haven't met many people who have had a group of close friends like that for that long so I consider myself blessed.
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Gary, I hope today has gone well for you.
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Gary, I still have a friend that we hand from 5th grade and 3 friends from HS that still get together.
Edit: 5 other friends from my teen years from work that we are in each other's lives.
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Gary, I hope today has gone well for you.
I can’t tell you how great it feels to have him back home. It was killing me thinking about him being alone in a strange place surrounded by strangers……I know it needed to be done but it was mental torture. It’s going to be nice to sleep tonight finally.
The day itself has went well…..his brothers were stoked to see him…..we all spent quite a bit of time together and now we’re just relaxing.
Thanks for asking Tim.
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Gary, I still have a friend that we hand from 5th grade and 3 friends from HS that still get together.
Edit: 5 other friends from my teen years from work that we are in each other's lives.
That’s awesome Joe! I don’t hear that a lot in general…..but it wouldn’t surprise me if there were multiple folks on this board who have a group like that as well given the quality of folks here. :biggrin:
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Every time I see this topic is updated, I hope it's not a post from Gary. So heartbreaking. I don't know you, but from what I've read here, it seems you're doing all you can. I pray he gets the help he needs and for some peace for your family. I'm glad you are able/willing to post about this difficult situation here. Take care.
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I hope for the best for your son (and you and the rest of your family). It's so sad to hear that he doesn't like himself and I hope somehow something will get through to him. He likely hasn't done a thing to warrant not being in the "in" crowd; that's just how it goes. And he's likely done nothing so bad that he shouldn't like himself. If he is a person that treats others with kindness, that's all he needs to be.
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So as the unofficial marriage thread, this commercial literally had me laughing out loud..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBC-UiK-NmI
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So as the unofficial marriage thread, this commercial literally had me laughing out loud..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBC-UiK-NmI
I tried this move before. I remember showing texts to a partner before proving what I said was correct and it only resulted in them getting madder at me.
So even when i won, I lost :lol
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So over the past couple of days a few forum members have reached out privately to see how things have been going with my son.....it was kind of weird as the timing was coincidental yet within a day or two of each other....so...here's a little synopsis of how things have been going....sorry if this turns out to be a long post.
How I describe it right now is 'three steps forward, two steps back'. Just as it seems like we're turning a corner or things have improved and we look to be past some hurdles something will happen that derails the progress. It's typically a self harm / cutting instance after multiple weeks of nothing and it's usually his response to something stressful. He just can't seem to implement the coping mechanisms 100% of the time. It's heartbreaking but there are some successes.....but, it's just not a done deal.
Ever since we had the issue with him in May where we had to hospitalize him he's been fixated on a particular kid and insistent that had that kid not gotten busted with the vape pen which then led to him being discovered to have some serious things he'd been lying about....that had that kid not gotten in trouble his life would still be fine. Everything bad that's happened since then in his life in his mind is this other kids fault. He's had an unhealthy perspective on it as he's blamed that kid for everything.
We've tried to work with him and let him know that his poor decisions have led him to encounter the trials he's facing.....not that kid telling on everyone. Yet, he has this refusal to accept that his actions have led to his challenges. This all culminated two weeks ago into him attacking that kid in the hallway of his school. He grabbed the kid from behind, briefly choked him and told him 'you are not safe here' then shoved him into a locker :censored :(
As you can imagine....he was suspended from school for a week AND the parents of said kid filed a restraining order against him so he was served that and we have a court date on the 11th to see if it gets lifted then or continues.
Obviously I was none to pleased with my son attacking someone for no reason so he has faced some severe consequences at home with the loss of most his privileges (computer time, phone, gaming etc) and now has forced us to have him watched or essentially baby sat in any instance when we're not around.
He has insisted that the counseling and therapy doesn't work....yet, we have explained to him that it hasn't worked because he's yet to buy in to what he's being taught. It's all been half measures with him to this point. After multiple conversations with him we've gotten an assurance from him that he's going to really try with his therapy and counseling now....and, we have found an intensive DBT Dialetical Behavior Therapy treatment that we are enrolling him in. It's a (6) week program, M-T from 4-6pm and Saturdays 9-11am.
We love on him, we listen to him, we get him every form of help we can....frankly, we're at our wits end. It's taking a toll on my wife and I for sure, it's just 'hard' there's no other way to explain it. We have our other two sons who are enjoying great successes in school and their activities and that offers some sort of distraction but....he's always in the back of my mind as I wonder 'what else' can I do or 'how' can I fix this all?
I've really tried to explain to him that this is the moment in his life where he can buckle down and tackle this all with simply opening himself up to the treatments and counseling. We're just in a 'hope' mode that he finally makes the decision to accept it all and start trying to implement what he's learning.
I wish I had a big 'happy ending' post to share with you all but unfortunately I think we're some ways off from that. But I do hold out Faith and Hope that he is going to come out of this all because I know his character and soul and he's a great kid....he's a compassionate kid.....but right now, he's just crippled by this depression and low self esteem and stuck in the cycles that accompany those things.
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Damn Gary. Sorry to hear about the way things have progressed. Is all the therapy he's tried 1:1? Are there group settings similar to AA where you're with a group of people with similar experiences?
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Damn Gary. Sorry to hear about the way things have progressed. Is all the therapy he's tried 1:1? Are there group settings similar to AA where you're with a group of people with similar experiences?
He did what they called ‘Intensive Group Therapy’ for four weeks after he was released from the hospital. It was four days a week, three hours a day….in person. I think he basically just showed up and sat there.
This therapy he’s starting now will be group therapy as well but it’s all via Zoom setting. I don’t know….maybe that will help him be more open to it? He’s promised me he will take this more serious.
We have an appointment with his Psychologist as well next week to where we may be discussing his medication and whether it needs to be modified or changed? His self harm has not seemed to have stopped. He can get through a few weeks but we found out that while his arms looked healed he was just cutting his chest and stomach to where we couldn’t see it.
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I'm going through my own issues Gary (See the chat thread) so I see where you are coming from. It seems nothing helps. No matter what you talk about, what others in the field talk about, your son can't stop what is going on upstairs. It must be so frightening as a parent to feel helpless. I'm so sorry Gary for you and your wife.
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I'm going through my own issues Gary (See the chat thread) so I see where you are coming from. It seems nothing helps. No matter what you talk about, what others in the field talk about, your son can't stop what is going on upstairs. It must be so frightening as a parent to feel helpless. I'm so sorry Gary for you and your wife.
I need to check that out then Joe and I will
And, I appreciate the sentiment.....this forum and a bunch of you guys have been so awesome with the support. It's a comfortable place for me to vent and just type it out and get it out there. My wife and I are plugging away and as I said....holding out Faith that he's going to weather this storm. It does suck not being able to 'fix' this for him and just make it 'better'....I think that's the worst part about all of this. Coming to grips with the fact a lot of (if not all of) the outcome of this is dependent on him and it's not something I can fix or control as a parent.
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Sometimes you think, He wants to fix himself but in his head it's different. Impulses he can't stop. It's a terrifying feeling I'd bet as a parent.
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How I describe it right now is 'three steps forward, two steps back'.
If this is indeed true, then it nets out to one step forward. :)
Thank you sharing Gary. I really feel awful for you and your family. I wish I could help..I really do.
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How I describe it right now is 'three steps forward, two steps back'.
If this is indeed true, then it nets out to one step forward. :)
Thank you sharing Gary. I really feel awful for you and your family. I wish I could help..I really do.
I believe it is and my evidence to support it is the communication and conversations between us and him are more productive these days. They used to be an instant fight whereas now it's not as contentious. Not always 'good' but they aren't anywhere near as bad as they once were. And, I can genuinely sense that he 'wants' to do things to get better.....he's just stuck in a bad cycle of mindset where he's holding himself hostage so to speak. Just trying to break him free of that so he can truly start to improve
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That sounds awful and I really hope things start to turn around for him, and for you and your wife. I hope he had some kind of realization that attacking that kid, aside from being wrong, didn't make things any better for him.
And I hope he can find some kind of relief from what he's going through besides the cutting; whether it's medication or therapy strategies or something. Wishing you all the best.
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Very sorry to hear that things are still difficult. How old is he currently?
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Very sorry to hear that things are still difficult. How old is he currently?
He turned 16 this past May.
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Oh wow.
Ultimately only he would know this for sure, but do you have any idea what the core issue might be? Like deep down beneath everything else, is there one big target to focus on?
And I know its not always that simple, but I'm just brainstorming.
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Thanks for sharing an update Gary. I'm so sorry to hear things aren't going well. Don't give up hope mate, it will turn around eventually.
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And, I can genuinely sense that he 'wants' to do things to get better.....he's just stuck in a bad cycle of mindset where he's holding himself hostage so to speak. Just trying to break him free of that so he can truly start to improve
I think many of us can understand this perspective - I know it's something I'm struggling through at the moment. Big hugs to you, your wife, and all three of your boys. Hold on to that hope and faith, as I suspect it will help sustain your commitment and conviction to the strategies you're all employing to get through this.
And apologies if it seemed like I cut our convo off the other night abruptly. It'd been a helluva week for me (workwise), and I was just really bagged.
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And apologies if it seemed like I cut our convo off the other night abruptly. It'd been a helluva week for me (workwise), and I was just really bagged.[/b]
Oh man....no big deal at all. It was kind of funny though.....just chatting away then suddenly "Oh shit....it's 11:30!" :lol
Again, everyone....I appreciate you all and having this outlet to 'speak' about it is really cathartic. Much love to you all!!
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but do you have any idea what the core issue might be? Like deep down beneath everything else, is there one big target to focus on?
Without making a huge post about it.....the 'simple' explanation is he has always had an IEP for school. For those that don't know, it's an 'Individualized Education Plan' to where he can receive additional services to assist him with his learning. He gets these services in class BUT he has to self advocate for himself....basically....'ask' for the help. In elementary and middle school it wasn't all that big a deal as he was younger but as he's aged he's began to feel 'different' than everyone else as he's more or less embarrassed by it.
His self esteem has taken a beating over this....his confidence, etc etc. It's just snowballed into him slipping into depression and not feeling good about himself. It's heartbreaking because he's such a good kid....genuine soul, very empathetic and compassionate. But he's just in a REAL bad mindset right now. Not only depressed but just overall outlook on life. We're just trying to help him break that cycle and start to find 'hope' again.
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Man, Gary, you brought back some really bad memories for me. My daughter during the middle school years was a trainwreck. Constant cutting, cutting in school, sexting, suicide attempt, multiple stays in a juvenile mental health facility, multiple intensive outpatient programs.
She's super smart and we eventually realized she was gaming the counselors and psychiatrists and telling them what they wanted to hear. I literally told her child psychiatrist that she was like an Evil Genius.
Eventually, we found a therapist that really got through to her. I also posited a theory of borderline personality disorder to both the therapist and her psychiatrist. They both agreed and then hooked up with each other to swap notes and come up with a plan of action. I cannot begin to tell you how many thousands or tens of thousands of dollars I spent on her therapy.
Now, at 22, she seems to have a good head on her shoulders. She has a steady job, a really good boyfriend and is helping me pay for her aborted college loans. All in all, we went through hell but we got through it. I honestly didn't think we would.
So, hopefully, my little story there will give you some hope. I admit, it was some of the worst time of our lives for my wife and I during those years.
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***snip***
So, hopefully, my little story there will give you some hope. I admit, it was some of the worst time of our lives for my wife and I during those years.
I appreciate the story as it truly is encouraging. We are holding firm to the hope that we know he has a great 'foundation' so to speak, he's a genuinely good person who just happens to be in a rough spot. I know it's going to continue to be a battle....I just want to make sure I'm doing all I can as his Father to give him whatever he needs to help break through. And....as you mentioned....this has been brutal for my wife and I. We are in a good spot with each other but emotionally it's just draining to say the least.
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Man, it's crazy to me that a 16 year old kid could feel so low and like their life is ruined because they got busted with a vape pen.
It's not even that big of a deal, and not only that, but many people don't even get started on putting their life together until their 30s. One or even many mistakes is not "the end".
But anyway, thinking of you and your son gmiller. I hope things continue to move forward.
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Damn, sorry to hear all of this, Gary. I don't always read these threads, but that was heartbreaking to read. I cannot imagine. :( :(
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Man, it's crazy to me that a 16 year old kid could feel so low and like their life is ruined because they got busted with a vape pen.
If only things were just that simple.
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Sorry, not to change the subject
But how do you guys handle intentional bad behavior vs accidental.
So like your kid is playing with a baseball outside and accidentally shatters a window in the house vs. they were pissed off for whatever reason and intentionally did it?
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Ok here goes a question.
So inevitably you have to correct your children. Its so incredibly easy to just "want to be their friend" since the love they show toward you feels nice, but at the same time you have to parent.
So when you correct them and you see that joy they have for you turn to sadness, and they storm off crying, or angry or resentful, how do you deal with that mentally? Like if feels so bad that all of a sudden they seem to "hate" you.
And question 2, is there a time you go to them to comfort and reassure them after correcting them, or do you let them cry it out where ever they stormed off to.
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If you allow that behavior, you acknowledge it's ok. So Let them cry it out and then later when the child is calmed down, explain why you do not like this certain behavior. Years later as an adult, you'll understand why your parents wouldn't allow you to act or do certain things. Fair but firm. Always explain so there is a learning and understanding why.
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If you allow that behavior, you acknowledge it's ok. So Let them cry it out and then later when the child is calmed down, explain why you do not like this certain behavior. Years later as an adult, you'll understand why your parents wouldn't allow you to act or do certain things. Fair but firm. Always explain so there is a learning and understanding why.
Wisdom, right there.
You have to let them experience and learn to cope with their emotions - hurt, sad, anger ... whatever. You don't want 22 year olds who pout for three days anytime they 'corrected'.
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Ok here goes a question.
So inevitably you have to correct your children. Its so incredibly easy to just "want to be their friend" since the love they show toward you feels nice, but at the same time you have to parent.
So when you correct them and you see that joy they have for you turn to sadness, and they storm off crying, or angry or resentful, how do you deal with that mentally? Like if feels so bad that all of a sudden they seem to "hate" you.
And question 2, is there a time you go to them to comfort and reassure them after correcting them, or do you let them cry it out where ever they stormed off to.
First - yes, parents need to set boundaries and rules for the child and then BE CONSISTENT with those boundaries/rules. You are right, being their 'friend' sounds nice but ultimately the goal of parenting is to teach (discipline means teach) them how to become fully functioning adults that know right from wrong. So parenting is a job - not a 'let's be friends' proposition.
I'm not sure the age(s) of child(ren) you are dealing with so remember that taking a child's age and maturity level goes into the response here. I often find that as parents we spend a lot of time teaching our kids how to do to thing - walk, talk, dress themselves, pick up after themselves, use utensils, ride a bike, etc - but we don't teach them how to manage their big emotions very well. Probably because a lot of parents don't know how to manage their own big emotions very well, TBH. So when we are faced with opportunities to teach our children about their big emotions that is very important even though feeling like they hate us in the moment is so very difficult.
Obviously, teaching is not going to occur when they are in a dysregulated state so until they are in that 'teachable' place I'd try to let them know that you understand that they are mad, upset, angry, frustrated - whatever emotion you see in them, try to name it. This way they a) know there is a word/label for their emotions and b) know that YOU understand how they are feeling.
Once the more 'teachable' moment arises - after the emotions have eased a bit, that is the time to have the discussion about whatever the issue was that happened but more importantly how they can better manage their emotional state in the future and that YOU are there to help them with this. So they don't have to storm off if they don't want to. You don't send them to their room because they are upset - you will be with them in their upset until they can calm down/regulate.
I grew up in a home where if I had any big emotion I got sent to my room. My parents did the best they could but they had no idea how to deal with my emotional outbursts. But how effective is it to teach a child how to manage their emotions by MAKING them do it all alone? Time outs can be effective sometimes - don't get me wrong. But not when the need is to teach how to manage anger/upset. We as parents need to put as much time/effort into helping our kids with their emotions as we do helping them learn to walk and talk.
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Thank god we have at least a few females here! :lol
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Ok here goes a question.
So inevitably you have to correct your children. Its so incredibly easy to just "want to be their friend" since the love they show toward you feels nice, but at the same time you have to parent.
So when you correct them and you see that joy they have for you turn to sadness, and they storm off crying, or angry or resentful, how do you deal with that mentally? Like if feels so bad that all of a sudden they seem to "hate" you.
And question 2, is there a time you go to them to comfort and reassure them after correcting them, or do you let them cry it out where ever they stormed off to.
First - yes, parents need to set boundaries and rules for the child and then BE CONSISTENT with those boundaries/rules. You are right, being their 'friend' sounds nice but ultimately the goal of parenting is to teach (discipline means teach) them how to become fully functioning adults that know right from wrong. So parenting is a job - not a 'let's be friends' proposition.
I'm not sure the age(s) of child(ren) you are dealing with so remember that taking a child's age and maturity level goes into the response here. I often find that as parents we spend a lot of time teaching our kids how to do to thing - walk, talk, dress themselves, pick up after themselves, use utensils, ride a bike, etc - but we don't teach them how to manage their big emotions very well. Probably because a lot of parents don't know how to manage their own big emotions very well, TBH. So when we are faced with opportunities to teach our children about their big emotions that is very important even though feeling like they hate us in the moment is so very difficult.
Obviously, teaching is not going to occur when they are in a dysregulated state so until they are in that 'teachable' place I'd try to let them know that you understand that they are mad, upset, angry, frustrated - whatever emotion you see in them, try to name it. This way they a) know there is a word/label for their emotions and b) know that YOU understand how they are feeling.
Once the more 'teachable' moment arises - after the emotions have eased a bit, that is the time to have the discussion about whatever the issue was that happened but more importantly how they can better manage their emotional state in the future and that YOU are there to help them with this. So they don't have to storm off if they don't want to. You don't send them to their room because they are upset - you will be with them in their upset until they can calm down/regulate.
I grew up in a home where if I had any big emotion I got sent to my room. My parents did the best they could but they had no idea how to deal with my emotional outbursts. But how effective is it to teach a child how to manage their emotions by MAKING them do it all alone? Time outs can be effective sometimes - don't get me wrong. But not when the need is to teach how to manage anger/upset. We as parents need to put as much time/effort into helping our kids with their emotions as we do helping them learn to walk and talk.
I was just going to say most of this… consistency is key! My wife and are constantly checking in to make sure we are essentially on the same page with everything our 14 and 2 year-olds throw at us.
Also, I think the fear of hurting a child’s feelings is totally natural, and compartmentalization is something every parent eventually needs to learn. I can be firm, consistent, sad, disappointed , and upset all at the same time—all while delivering whatever ‘no’ the moment calls for.
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Thank you everyone. Excellent guidance and I appreciate it
and just for context my nephew is 13 but has a developmental disorder and looks like he's 5 or 6. (if you remember simon birch the movie, it will makes sense)
The niece is 7 and extremely smart, but much like me (she is wild and fearless). She does immediately listen to me without issue though.
The nephew "Marc" seems 100% fine alone, but around other little kids (like his sister) he regresses and acts up (possibly to get attention)
But what is so utterly truly fascinating and moving quite frankly is the following:
with my Autism when I've had enough, I've truly had enough. (like with overstimulation). And instead of having a meltdown in front of children, I just got up and said I need to leave.
The 7 year old niece "Mackenna" ran after me and grabbed me by the arm very tightly and said "please uncle Phoenix, please down leave, we'll be quieter and act better"
And for her, I turned around and sat back down. Even though all I wanted to do was run.
I'm almost getting teary eyed just thinking about it.
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The 7 year old niece "Mackenna" ran after me and grabbed me by the arm very tightly and said "please uncle Phoenix, please down leave, we'll be quieter and act better"
And for her, I turned around and sat back down. Even though all I wanted to do was run.
Good for you. Seriously. Our son is autistic, and we have always pushed his comfort level in certain things.
It's important that you did what you did...for her's and your own good. A win-win if I may.
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I wasn't going to weigh in - Harmony covered it about as well as it could be covered - but I wanted to affirm Phoenix for his handling of that situation and getting out of his comfort zone for those kids. Pretty impressed, pretty proud of you.
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Thanks so much guys. I really appreciate it.
I've dreamed of being a father my entire life, so I am very grateful to have this opportunity to learn and develop being a parent.
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I wasn't going to weigh in - Harmony covered it about as well as it could be covered - but I wanted to affirm Phoenix for his handling of that situation and getting out of his comfort zone for those kids. Pretty impressed, pretty proud of you.
If the forum had a ‘Like’ button, I’d have smashed it on Phoenix’s follow up post. I completely concur with Bill here.
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At what ages did you feel it got easier as a parent, when you have babies and toddlers?
I have two kids, boy just turned 1 and girl is almost 4. The girl is awesome but can throw the worst of tantrums. Still, I feel like I can deal with that well, because I can actually talk to her. I can trust her to play by herself a lot, which lets me be able to keep the house clean.
It's so much harder when the other kid is so young and needs my attention much more. I try to let him play as independently as possible. He loves to push anything he can around the house and will go through boxes of toys, all the while I supervise him and do some quick tidying in the room we are in.
I just feel like a whirlwind of a person and it's every day. I knew it would be, nothing about this surprises me. Maybe I just need some reassurance :lol and I love my kids, they are funny and awesome little people
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At what ages did you feel it got easier as a parent, when you have babies and toddlers?
I have two kids, boy just turned 1 and girl is almost 4. The girl is awesome but can throw the worst of tantrums. Still, I feel like I can deal with that well, because I can actually talk to her. I can trust her to play by herself a lot, which lets me be able to keep the house clean.
It's so much harder when the other kid is so young and needs my attention much more. I try to let him play as independently as possible. He loves to push anything he can around the house and will go through boxes of toys, all the while I supervise him and do some quick tidying in the room we are in.
I just feel like a whirlwind of a person and it's every day. I knew it would be, nothing about this surprises me. Maybe I just need some reassurance :lol and I love my kids, they are funny and awesome little people
Unfortunately, I think the only honest answer anyone can give you is, "it depends." :-[
Our 14 (going on 25) year-old son was a freaking demon when he didn't get his way. Massive, uncontrollable tantrums until he was 5 or 6, and even then, he was a trouble-maker at school.
Obviously, he was the only kid in the house, so with my wife and I always able to tag-team, I never felt 'overwhelmed.' It was trying at times, but we quickly learned to be a united front, and that seemed to work well.
The kid is now going to be a sophomore, has a 4.0, plays sports, has a job, and has the most reserved, mild-mannered disposition. I honestly can't justify my memory of him with the man he's become/becoming.
Our 2-year-old, on the other hand, is quiet, reserved, and thoughtful. Much more in line with my wife and I's personalties. He won't sleep through the night, but otherwise, he's been a joy. Of course, with us in our mid-forties, I think we are savoring this a bit more this time around, so that definitely helps.
I am all too aware of how fast it's going by, so I am trying my best to treasure everything, even the mild hiccups.
Again, my story would be WAY different without my wife. I mean, to be honest, she does all of the heavy lifting with these kids. I mean, I'm there, but I am definitely Myung to her Petrucci.
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As I always told Mrs.jingle, it doesn’t get any easier or harder, it just gets different.
There are always new problems, worries, joys, and exhilarations as they age. The jingle.kids are turning 23 in 4 weeks, and it’s still a challenge parenting adults that are living at home (because of the pandemic, they came home and got stuck in virtual schooling)
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Nice advice guys! That's true, it just gets different. I think I will feel less flustered when little boy can communicate his needs better, and sleep through the night more than he does now. He is awesome, I'm just tired.
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Nice advice guys! That's true, it just gets different. I think I will feel less flustered when little boy can communicate his needs better, and sleep through the night more than he does now. He is awesome, I'm just tired.
I haven't had more than three hours of uninterrupted sleep in almost two years–I hear you!
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At what ages did you feel it got easier as a parent, when you have babies and toddlers?
I have two kids, boy just turned 1 and girl is almost 4. The girl is awesome but can throw the worst of tantrums. Still, I feel like I can deal with that well, because I can actually talk to her. I can trust her to play by herself a lot, which lets me be able to keep the house clean.
It's so much harder when the other kid is so young and needs my attention much more. I try to let him play as independently as possible. He loves to push anything he can around the house and will go through boxes of toys, all the while I supervise him and do some quick tidying in the room we are in.
I just feel like a whirlwind of a person and it's every day. I knew it would be, nothing about this surprises me. Maybe I just need some reassurance :lol and I love my kids, they are funny and awesome little people
It doesn't get "easier" - I have a 30, 25, 22, and 15 year old, as well as 6 and 2 year old grandkids, and NONE of it is easier - it just gets different. Both in the problems, but also the consequences, and the solutions.
I find FOR ME, the young require TIME. I have to watch the 2 year old, because it only takes a second to burn or cut or break something. You have to be present and WATCH. You also have to be very literal in your instructions: "Hey, don't play with the knife." I don't need to put in TIME watching the older kids, but the worries are more... intangible and lasting in different ways. And I don't have to be literal, and in fact it's sometimes inadvisable to be too literal in the instruction. "Why not try something along these lines?" Or, better yet, "here's a great book that covers what you're going through."
Both, though, are incredibly rewarding. I know there was a thread about the obnoxiousness of parents to those that don't have kids, and I don't mean anything I write to tread on those lines, but FOR ME, I find my kids to be an incredibly rewarding experience, and I willingly, at this point, put them first because it gives me joy to see their successes. It's not like I've done everything, I haven't, and I have a lot to do that I will, but it's tempered. I'm not skydiving at this point, or joining the Army, or going to London for two years of grad school, so I facilitate that in my kids where I can...
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At what ages did you feel it got easier as a parent, when you have babies and toddlers?
I have two kids, boy just turned 1 and girl is almost 4. The girl is awesome but can throw the worst of tantrums. Still, I feel like I can deal with that well, because I can actually talk to her. I can trust her to play by herself a lot, which lets me be able to keep the house clean.
It's so much harder when the other kid is so young and needs my attention much more. I try to let him play as independently as possible. He loves to push anything he can around the house and will go through boxes of toys, all the while I supervise him and do some quick tidying in the room we are in.
I just feel like a whirlwind of a person and it's every day. I knew it would be, nothing about this surprises me. Maybe I just need some reassurance :lol and I love my kids, they are funny and awesome little people
It doesn't get "easier" - I have a 30, 25, 22, and 15 year old, as well as 6 and 2 year old grandkids, and NONE of it is easier - it just gets different. Both in the problems, but also the consequences, and the solutions.
I find FOR ME, the young require TIME. I have to watch the 2 year old, because it only takes a second to burn or cut or break something. You have to be present and WATCH. You also have to be very literal in your instructions: "Hey, don't play with the knife." I don't need to put in TIME watching the older kids, but the worries are more... intangible and lasting in different ways. And I don't have to be literal, and in fact it's sometimes inadvisable to be too literal in the instruction. "Why not try something along these lines?" Or, better yet, "here's a great book that covers what you're going through."
Both, though, are incredibly rewarding. I know there was a thread about the obnoxiousness of parents to those that don't have kids, and I don't mean anything I write to tread on those lines, but FOR ME, I find my kids to be an incredibly rewarding experience, and I willingly, at this point, put them first because it gives me joy to see their successes. It's not like I've done everything, I haven't, and I have a lot to do that I will, but it's tempered. I'm not skydiving at this point, or joining the Army, or going to London for two years of grad school, so I facilitate that in my kids where I can...
You leave a knife where a 2 year old can get at it? :lol
I agree with the other posters. I was talking about safety proofing a house with a friend who's going to be a grandma soon. You never stop safety proofing - you just keep moving the safety gates back farther.
I honestly thought 4 was harder than 2 because the 4 year old can talk. Nothing hurts like, "I hate you!" *stomp stomp*
Nothing prepares you for the amount of negotiating you have to do either. I fucking hated that. Especially since I grew up hearing, "Because I said so!" and tried really hard not to have that attitude with my kids. That said, the amount of whining that a 2 year old can do is pretty impressive. They say if you survive the terrible 2s you can survive teenagers. At least teenagers sleep a lot.
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At what ages did you feel it got easier as a parent, when you have babies and toddlers?
I have two kids, boy just turned 1 and girl is almost 4. The girl is awesome but can throw the worst of tantrums. Still, I feel like I can deal with that well, because I can actually talk to her. I can trust her to play by herself a lot, which lets me be able to keep the house clean.
It's so much harder when the other kid is so young and needs my attention much more. I try to let him play as independently as possible. He loves to push anything he can around the house and will go through boxes of toys, all the while I supervise him and do some quick tidying in the room we are in.
I just feel like a whirlwind of a person and it's every day. I knew it would be, nothing about this surprises me. Maybe I just need some reassurance :lol and I love my kids, they are funny and awesome little people
It doesn't get "easier" - I have a 30, 25, 22, and 15 year old, as well as 6 and 2 year old grandkids, and NONE of it is easier - it just gets different. Both in the problems, but also the consequences, and the solutions.
I find FOR ME, the young require TIME. I have to watch the 2 year old, because it only takes a second to burn or cut or break something. You have to be present and WATCH. You also have to be very literal in your instructions: "Hey, don't play with the knife." I don't need to put in TIME watching the older kids, but the worries are more... intangible and lasting in different ways. And I don't have to be literal, and in fact it's sometimes inadvisable to be too literal in the instruction. "Why not try something along these lines?" Or, better yet, "here's a great book that covers what you're going through."
Both, though, are incredibly rewarding. I know there was a thread about the obnoxiousness of parents to those that don't have kids, and I don't mean anything I write to tread on those lines, but FOR ME, I find my kids to be an incredibly rewarding experience, and I willingly, at this point, put them first because it gives me joy to see their successes. It's not like I've done everything, I haven't, and I have a lot to do that I will, but it's tempered. I'm not skydiving at this point, or joining the Army, or going to London for two years of grad school, so I facilitate that in my kids where I can...
You leave a knife where a 2 year old can get at it? :lol
I agree with the other posters. I was talking about safety proofing a house with a friend who's going to be a grandma soon. You never stop safety proofing - you just keep moving the safety gates back farther.
I honestly thought 4 was harder than 2 because the 4 year old can talk. Nothing hurts like, "I hate you!" *stomp stomp*
Nothing prepares you for the amount of negotiating you have to do either. I fucking hated that. Especially since I grew up hearing, "Because I said so!" and tried really hard not to have that attitude with my kids. That said, the amount of whining that a 2 year old can do is pretty impressive. They say if you survive the terrible 2s you can survive teenagers. At least teenagers sleep a lot.
We're going through that now with the six year old. REALLY pushing boundaries; it's stunning what these kids know to say in order to get right to the bone. :)
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I teach 12 to 14 year olds math (and used to teach 14 - 18 as well), I feel like I can at least have some experience with that age group and what to expect.
Little kids though. Those emotions are big and explosive.
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I think it gets easier when they're able to wipe their own butts and get their own bowl of cereal for breakfast. Now, there are other things to have to deal with as they get older of course. But the constant hands-on nature of little kids get better by age 6 or so.
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At what ages did you feel it got easier as a parent, when you have babies and toddlers?
Once my youngest was potty trained, it seemed to get easier, though there is still butt-wiping involved. Older kids just have different issues. My daughter is 8 and has some bad behavioral tendencies that we are dealing with in various ways. Sometimes that can be a daily occurrence and it's draining, but the good times show us that not every day is a pain.
I just feel like a whirlwind of a person and it's every day. I knew it would be, nothing about this surprises me. Maybe I just need some reassurance :lol and I love my kids, they are funny and awesome little people
Still true. I wake up around 6am (5am when I commute to the city) and I don't get to sit down and relax for myself until 9pm when everyone is in bed. Every day is crazy, though it's better when school is in session and there is a daily schedule and structure. This summer has been nuts between juggling work, lighter kids camp schedules, and keeping the kids busy outside.
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Can we talk about how society treats children in public places?
And the fact that this may be contributing to the rise in mental health problems that we, here in the US, seem to have.
It seems as though for the most part children are not welcomed into our society. I myself am guilty of being less than enthusiastic when faced with children on a plane or in a restaurant. Even if that child is somewhat well behaved - that could change at an instant and who wants to put up with that - right?
Kids are expected to be put in 'kids only' places. We want to keep them separate because they are seen as inconveniences. We give them tablets at the table in the restaurant so they won't bother anyone. And then we wonder why kids grow into adults who have problems going into a grocery store without having a panic attack. We wonder why they don't know how to make phone calls...they don't know how to talk to people at the post office...they have trouble making friends. We put them in their kids only places and then expect them to grow into normal adults who can successfully navigate their world.
Kids learn how to be in a society by being in a society. If we make them sit quietly and not move while they are out in a social place they are going to learn that this is a bad place to be. "This is where I get in trouble." "This is where I can't relax." Kids learn from being exposed to the interactions of others. Seeing other people in social settings allows them to pick up the skills to communicate, understand, empathize with their fellow human beings. Everyone having a phone in their hands is not helping with this either. It just keeps everyone in their own little boxes.
It is ok for parents to want spaces to be more welcoming for children. We put enormous pressure on parents to keep their kids in check. And when they don't, they are automatically labled as 'bad parents.' This further isolates families - parents and kids - from the society. The same society that needs well-adjusted functioning adults.
Look, I love kids. But I'm old and tired. I think maybe lately I've let myself lapse into a headspace where I try to avoid places with kids. (Ok being a bit of a germaphobe is part of it too, I'm sure. Fuckin petri dishes all of em... :D) And when I do run into them out in the wild I try not to interact with them. I feel like I want to try and change this in some small way. Maybe being more welcoming to kids and their parents would be a small thing but one that could make someone's day better.
I don't know...just a thought I had today. :heart
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I'm not like that. I understand when a baby rises in a restaurant. When I'm wrestling event in Boston, s fidgety kid is kicking my chair but I say nothing.
I do think, I am not the norm. Today's world is self absorbed. There feelings matter over everyone else instead of being understanding. Compassionate.
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I want to think about Harmony's post a bit before responding, but recently we went to a restaurant, and after having been sitting for a bit, my 5 year old looked around and said something to the effect of "lots of tablets here..." Easily more than half of the kids there were using a tablet at their table.
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I bring my kids most places. I completely agree that kids learn best in society and seeing how I interact with people. We also don't resort to screens to keep them silent and dumb when we're out and about. Drives me nuts to see toddlers on their parents phones at the grocery store. Let them help choose what food you get! I'll be honest, I'm not sure that I agree that kids aren't welcome.most places. Or maybe I'm just oblivious that people hate that I bring my kids in public. :lol
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We obviously bring our kids places - my kids love jumping in the car with me to run errands, even if it's just to pick up food. They want to help and be involved in the family. We just flew back from Florida and my kids were AWESOME on the plane rides. But on the flight back, there were a few crying babies. Us parents have all been there and I have much more empathy for them now as a parent than I did before I had my own kids.
I've put my kids over my shoulder and marched them out of someplace public when a tantrum started, and I've also seen them behave really well. Yes, we resort to tablets and cell phones to entertain them, but that's just part of the societal norm now. We also stack coffee creamer and butter containers at restaurants to occupy time, so it's not always relying on technology, but that's usually the simplest way to keep them from disturbing others.
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I have two kids of that age (my older two step kids were already in their teens when I met them) and now two grandkids (5 1/2 and almost 2).
I am EXCEEDINGLY patient with kids. I am EXCEEDINGLY harsh with parents. I was in the xfinity store last week, and "Nana" was there with her four I guess grandkids, aged I'd guess 1 1/2 to maybe 8 or 10? They were hellions, and all "Nana" did was yell at them and expect them to act like adults in a cable store. I wanted to punch "Nana" in the face (not to mention, her phone didn't work, and it was because her daughter didn't pay the bill; she kept yelling that "she paid her daughter, it wasn't her problem, her phone won't let her make calls!"; at one point she actually asked the guy working "do you have the number for Shop Rite so I can call my daughter?" He politely said "no, Ma'am, I do not.")
Parenting is not a passive activity. It's just not. I spend a lot of time with my step son and we bring his two kids all over. Sometimes they're awesome, sometimes they're not. The responsibility falls on him and I to make that right. Whether it's discipline, or punting and realizing that's not the place for that kid at that time, whatever.
But I'm 100% in agreement with Harmony, in that these kids will never learn to exist in public and co-exist with other people if they aren't put in a situation where they have to exist in public and co-exist with other people. We live in a fucked up society in that way; we seem to gravitate to two extremes: we brow-beat our kids to be disciplined mini-adults for 18 years or we let them run roughshod for 18 years, then throw them out in a society that says "fuck all the rules, you be you, and let the freak flag fly" and wonder why they sink like stones.
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Yesterday was a big day in the household.....our 16 year old drove off on his own for the first time :omg: Talk about nearly having a panic attack!!!! He got his license on Monday and it took me a couple days to get the car we got for him licensed, new tires and what not....so, got that done yesterday and he was able to take himself to his piano lessons then to the high school for marching band practice.
My wife was crying because we've been taking him to those lessons since he was in third grade...and now he's just off to it. Now today they're off school and he's taking off to go to his buddies house to 'jam'....I know it'll get easier but I'm trying not to worry and get in my head over this.
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Big moment dude. :tup
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I've got one of those moments coming up in a little over a year. Not looking forward to it.
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Been through that twice. Glad that's over for me.
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Big moment dude. :tup
Been through that twice. Glad that's over for me.
Yeah....he's done well getting prepared to drive...did well on his test....so, I 'know' he can do it responsibly. Just fighting off my tendency to get in my head and run with worse case scenarios for ten minutes and freaking myself out. Just gotta breathe and chill and all that.
I've got one of those moments coming up in a little over a year. Not looking forward to it.
We will have another one soon because....my oldest is 17 but until recently hadn't really been in a good mindset and spot to focus on driving. He has his permit now and we've been working with him, so...I imagine here once we get him to the suggested 40hrs of driving and 10hrs at night point....he will want to go get his license also. His younger brother beating him to the punch kind of lit a fire under his butt.
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I've got one of those moments coming up in a little over a year. Not looking forward to it.
Me too!
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Just fighting off my tendency to get in my head and run with worse case scenarios for ten minutes and freaking myself out.
It gets easier...in about 10 years.
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....and.....I've seen my 16 year old a grand total of like 5 minutes since last week :lol That kid is everywhere but here. Picking buddies up from work and school....going out to different skate board parks or hanging out at this record store they like....dropping off applications to jobs.....you name it he is gone. It's kind of neat seeing what this little bit of freedom has brought to his life, he's all smiles these days.
I'm still nervous as all heck when he pulls away but I guess that'll just be there for a while.
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Did I handle this in a good way? Hopefully won't leave out any relevant details.
We are on Christmas break and today, my 4 year old girl was playing too rough with our 1 year old. After 2 times asking her to stop, I asked her to go to her room. She knows this is a short break, and then she can come back out to play after a short talk with me or mom.
Today, instead of going to her room, she thought she would try to run around the house and stick her tongue out at me. Sometimes I will pick her up and deliver her to her room, but she is good at circling around the couch to where I cannot get her. So I said I would take away her Halloween/Christmas candy bag if she didn't go to her room. She still ran around and then I took away her favorite Christmas present. She finally went into her room and I had her stay in there for 8 minutes (a good deal longer than usual). She could play in there, I just wanted her in there to cool down. Also, I did raise my voice but I didn't scream or scare her, just a more directive voice from me.
My question is: is taking items she likes away a good strategy in this case (or many cases)? It does seem right, but this is where I doubt if it's right because parenting is a complex and everyday task and my ability to think sometimes seems tiresome with two kids :lol . Wife seemed just fine with it. My girl was so apologetic afterward, but this was one of the more significant episodes from her. The rest of the day was normal and she didn't seem bothered, which seems to tell me that this was all fine.
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There are two approaches to take when "motivating" a child into the a required behaviour: stick, or carrot. Taking away something is the former (figuratively), so nothing wrong with that. It's not permanent - not like you stomped and smashed her favorite toy. Removing access to something she wants is a completely reasonable consequence when she is refusing to do something she is required to do. Frankly, it's a low-ball consequence. An 8-minute timeout seems kind of light for outright refusing your 'instruction'.
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Ooh, so you're thinking a longer timeout or something else would be a greater consequence?
I did take away her favorite toy for the rest of the day and she will get it back today. I thought that might be enough.
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We've always used the rule that timeouts should the the same number of minutes that they are years old. If you go much longer that they the kid won't even remember why they're in timeout in the first place. Though admittedly they're a nice chance for the oarent to cool off and approach the situation better afterward. Overall it sounds like you handled the ituation well. Nothing wrong with taking away a toy for a bit as a punishment. Just make sure you stand behind what you said and don't cave and give it back.
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Ooh, so you're thinking a longer timeout or something else would be a greater consequence?
I did take away her favorite toy for the rest of the day and she will get it back today. I thought that might be enough.
No, I mean 8-minutes seems like a nothing-burger amount of time. IMO, time-outs are a means to have children reflect on their actions. I mean, it's not going to be deep, soul-searching introspection for a toddler or pre-teen, but I suspect she'll have forgotten what she did to earn that time out by about minute 9... especially if the time-out comes with toys. Make her bored for 30 minutes, and she just might remember that sticking her tongue out at daddy while disobeying him makes for a boring outcome.
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I don't see that "taking away a favorite toy" is even questionable. I may be old school, but I would do that in a heartbeat.
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I don't see that "taking away a favorite toy" is even questionable. I may be old school, but I would do that in a heartbeat.
This.
And I know 4 is young, but if they can verbalize why they were in timeout, that’d be good.
You did just fine James! If she chilled out, and came back civil to her brother, then all is good.
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Thanks all, every response has been super helpful! Today we had another outburst in the morning and she realized much faster that she will get the same consequences and has been excellent otherwise. I read your responses this morning on my phone and that gave me more confidence to keep at it.
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So this is a situation I've dealt with probably thousands of times with hundreds of different pairs of kids for the past three years as a childcare worker in a big kindergarten! Not as a parent, so please discount anything I say that doesn't apply to your experience.
We're not allowed to use time-outs at work, first and foremost for safety (we are required to never leave a kid alone in a room) and then for some other esoteric pedagogical reasons we don't use timeout corners or chairs or anything like that*. But both what we do at work and classic timeouts work the same as a consequence - you're doing something dangerous or inappropriate, I'm putting a damper on it so that you're physically required to do something else, and since you have your own room in your house that's a convenient way I'm going to achieve that, and I'm sure you're safe in your room and you're not trashing your own room.
But I'm not exactly sure that the "I bothered my baby sibling and then was naughty and didn't wanna go to my timeout so that means dad is gonna take a toy from me"-consequence stacking works for a four-year-old. She wasn't doing something bad with the toy, but with disobeying a message from dad, it's very far removed from the realm of natural consequence. If it works, fine, but even if it works and you're only wondering about other things to do, here's some stuff we do at work with these issues!
1) Swift follow-through with no regard or reaction to testing is great. I'm the only one at work who gets listened to when I remind the kids the couch is for sitting and the floor is for walking, because the kids know I'll get up no matter how inconvenient it is for me at the moment and gently put them down on the floor and then block them from getting on the sofa for a bit, and they did want to be on the sofa, they were just testing how far they could go with it.
The running around the couch and sticking her tongue out is testing, and kids do it for so many reasons, attention, control, contact, and plain old simple not wanting to do what you want them to do. And during some other situations at work, I'm the one making a whole dog and pony show with the "you have to! you really won't??? well! tell you what I'm gonna do! here's a Consequence!", I'm not sure how I got so laser-focused and successful with the sofa thing :rollin But when there's an unwanted behavior, your prime directive isn't to make your (small) kid think deeply about right and wrong before you stop the behavior. So she has to go to timeout, and if you see she heard and understood the message, you just do what you did earlier and deliver her to her room no matter how good she is at physically evading the consequence, because that's also a part of testing. If I get pissed off and explain, even without waving my arms around, how they'll get hurt or I'll get sad if they keep jumping on the sofa, they giggle at me because the test is passing, they're still not off the sofa. And if I try to take away another toy after failing the test for a satisfactory period of time for them :lol they're not learning anything about the sofa and they'll try to initiate the whole show again at some point.
For some kids, seeing a sad or angry or exasperated or disappointed face of the adult who controls their day-to-day life and hearing some emotion in their voice when some sort of punishment is doled out is deterrent enough, but that's because they got scared of what will happen, not because they understood the whole logical chain of events. For many other kids, it's just too amusing to see what happens next, and even if it's not that amusing or whatever the underlying need behind the behavior is, it sure beats the hell out of just going to her room when told. So either you go through the escalating situation enough times until you hit upon the combination of the face and the voice that stops her from doing what she's doing, or she is just without much fuss made to go to her room which stops her from doing what she's doing.
2) With bothering the one-year-old with rough play, learning how to be friends with a younger sibling or a friend is a skill. I've tried before at work to stop rough playing of any kind, and that's kind of a dead end, and it really makes it into a sort of a forbidden quest for the older kid, even if they're remarkably well-behaved in other ways. What we do is that we tell kids they need to tell someone "no! stop!" if they're physically treated in a way they don't like. One-year-olds usually aren't that verbal yet, so I then teach the older kid to look at the younger kid's face and see the underlying emotion. Four-year-olds can tell apart different emotions from faces - the ones who can't, we work with them on that as well, we have "sad, happy, angry, scared" face pictures hanging all over every room and we take them to it and we identify different faces until they figure it out - so if it's a negative feeling, we tell them to try something else, another form of contact. After a couple of situations, you get skilled at seeing the point where it starts going sideways, so you can nip it in the bud even before something undesirable to the one-year-old happens, and then of course you have a hard boundary no for anything that doesn't fly even in rougher play.
At work we have a room where this kind of rougher play is a bit more allowed, and at this point, after working quite intensely on exactly this with this group of kids for months, I just referee a bit by reminding them to watch the friend's face, and reminding the friends to move away or say "stop" if it's something they don't like, while being prepared to jump in if something actually physically harmful is about to happen. It's called the pillow room, and if it happens there's a kid who just doesn't tolerate rougher play but keeps engaging in it, I hold the boundary that they should also move away and try something else for a bit, instead of correcting the other Wrestlemania hopefuls every five seconds. It's just a small room, sometimes it's an open door situation with me just sitting where the door is, where we have a nook with a big pillow on the floor, some other smaller pillows and a few play mats, and they can use the pillows to build, but most of the time they just jump, fall, wrestle and throw the pillows around!
You can allow slightly rougher play on a low sofa that no one else is using at that moment, a bed if it's big and safe and they mind the wall, a yoga mat or a play mat/corner or anything like that. The kids who really wanna try manhandling someone or engage in out-of-bounds physical play, I make sure to also do that with them myself throughout the day, and lift and toss them and do all that fun stuff while explaining what I do to still keep them safe and comfortable, and then I let them push and pull me too and I stop them a couple of times, either just randomly or because someone else wants my attention.
You don't have to be scared that previous negative contact will make them scared or resent each other, it's all a form of contact, as long as it's not something completely extreme. Kids I had to coach most often on how to approach each other because they had Situations are the ones that most often become best friends. You also don't have to be scared your daughter is becoming a bully, again it's all contact, and the older kids just haven't yet found the type of contact with their younger sibling that's just as satisfying as an uninhibited recreation of Wrestlemania. You do have to referee a little, and while there will always be a bit of asymmetry in the relationship, as long as you also make a show of teaching the one-year-old how to treat the four-year-old ;) you're not going to create resentment.
*If I wanna stop a kid from doing something, the extent of what I'm allowed to do is physically move them a few feet away and tell them they're taking a break from that activity and they're doing something else, and if they try to go around me just kind of block the way out, more with my demeanor than my body, while remaining with the child. It's a version of the time-out that's just slightly different in some mild and again esoteric pedagogical aspects, so we don't call it time-out :lol
If they're really defying me and the activity is really unsafe, or they're really picking on multiple other kids that I can't all pick up instead, I pick them up (I mostly work with 1-to-3's, but it works the same with older kids whenever I work with them for the day, though their little legs really pack a punch :lol), get strict with that directive voice, then try to direct the activities and the play a bit more to make sure to lead it in a more positive direction away from the specific conflict points of these kids. If this causes a tantrum, it's convenient if I have one of my coworkers there to step in and comfort but also reinforce what I said, but I can play that role as well if I'm well-regulated and relaxed at that moment.
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I don't see that "taking away a favorite toy" is even questionable. I may be old school, but I would do that in a heartbeat.
I think it can go too far.
Let me share a story about how my brother and I were raised.
My brother never did well in school. As recourse, my parents would take video games away from him for entire semesters. Do you think this helped him much? In this case, taking away a precious privilege that helped my brother relax and helped us bond together didn't lead to better grades, it just deprived him of any enjoyment growing up under my parent's roof. Unfortunately, it's not like my parents spent more time studying with him or making sure he understood his homework. They just expected him to "get better" because they would deprive him of something he found important if he didn't.
As men, my brother really struggles with letting himself relax and enjoy life. Me and my cousins all talk about games we're playing, shows we're watching, and so on together, and my brother just stays out of it. He's just so conditioned to denying himself and that's followed him into adulthood.
I think it's perfectly reasonable to take an object away when a child is not using it properly, or not following rules related to it. But taking objects away as a generalized punishment for any/all of your child's failures and acts of disobedience isn't sending a message that helps a child learn and grow, it's just telling a child "you need to do what I say at all costs because I can't handle you like this". With my won son, I like to try and focus on what Mora referred to above as "natural" consequences. When he refuses to give up his iPad after a period of pre-determined time, I simply take it away if he refuses to do with willingly. And if he throws a tantrum about that, I tell him "this yelling is not going to work, and if you can't learn to listen when it's time to give iPad up we are not going to look at it anymore."
Related, it was a longstanding rule going back in my family that no one got desert unless they ate all of their dinner. Turns out, almost the entire family is obese.
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Just throwing this out as a parenting conversation, it's not directed at any one in particular.
I also agree with the idea of natural consequences with one addition. Negotiated consequences. Now, I don't remember how well it works with a four year old but you might wish to talk with them about it. Say, for instance, you know your child values a specific toy over all else and you wish to take it away for any bad behaviour. That's not really a natural consequence unless the child volunteers it as one in advance. The idea is to talk with them at a calm moment and tell them you're unsatisfied with their behavior at specific times. Describe how it makes you feel and that you've got to come to an agreement toward consequences for that behavior. That's where the negotiation comes in, and let's face it, if you can't manipulate your child into offering up their favorite toy as a consequence for tantrums, you probably shouldn't be a parent. Have them repeat the consequence back to you, or have them write it down as a contract in their own handwriting. You'll have to be the judge by knowing if they'll honor their word or need something more tangible.
The trick is to be firm when the negotiated consequence needs to be applied, some kids will try to weedle out of it. You might have to lean on the whole "this is the consequence you chose, not me" schtick. You may even wish to offer up a renegotiation after you've applied the original agreement. That can be really effective, it puts you in a good position as a flexible arbiter of the situation. The few times I got to this point with my own children, they often offered up more punitive consequences than I would have...and again, I found myself in the enviable position of reasoning them back to something appropriate. Made me look fair in their eyes.
All of this sounds more difficult than it is. It takes little time and is really just a different way of looking at crime and punishment with in your household. You know what is acceptable behaviour in your home. The idea is to clearly communicate that with your children, get them to agree, get them to offer up consequences for stepping out of line, and consistently hold them to their agreement.
Or, just let Mrs. P verbally bludgeon all of us with guilt and shame. :biggrin:
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Can your 4 year old read yet? If so, a good but severe punishment is to have them read any of Stadlers PR posts.
Of course if they can’t read, you can read them to her.
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Can your 4 year old read yet? If so, a good but severe punishment is to have them read any of Stadlers PR posts.
Of course if they can’t read, you can read them to her.
Be sure to properly emphasize the words in ALL CAPS :rollin
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Can your 4 year old read yet? If so, a good but severe punishment is to have them read any of Stadlers PR posts.
Of course if they can’t read, you can read them to her.
oof
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@mora: thanks for the tips! There is a reason I chose to teach middle and high school :lol I do a lot of what you said, I think being home for an extended time (and tons of rain in the last week) has made us all have a little cabin fever, and I needed some reminders!
@Skeever: that's a good point to bring up about your brother, though his struggles came from something more long-term and deeply consequential to his development (his education), so that might be a more extreme example. Your point is still good to keep in mind, I try to be mindful on what could impact her long term.
@podaar: most of the time we do talk about actions and consequences together. She is awesome at talking it out and moving past it, I think the last few days she was going over the top, more than we have seen, so escalating some of the consequences felt right, at least in the moment. I appreciate the reminder because I want her to feel comfortable, rain or shine.
I appreciate all 3 of you, more good words to remind me of good methods. Love you all!
Can your 4 year old read yet? If so, a good but severe punishment is to have them read any of Stadlers PR posts.
Of course if they can’t read, you can read them to her.
Stadler is awesome, get outta here!
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Can your 4 year old read yet? If so, a good but severe punishment is to have them read any of Stadlers PR posts.
Of course if they can’t read, you can read them to her.
Next thing you know she'll be posting on here telling me to fuck off.
On the flip side, there's a chance she could grow up knowing who Adam Schiff is and what he did. ;)
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Can your 4 year old read yet? If so, a good but severe punishment is to have them read any of Stadlers PR posts.
Of course if they can’t read, you can read them to her.
Next thing you know she'll be posting on here telling me to fuck off.
On the flip side, there's a chance she could grow up knowing who Adam Schiff is and what he did. ;)
She'll know that he's deplorable! :lol
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Someone tell me I'm not losing it:
1. Neighborhood kids/friends aren't allowed to either play inside someone else's house, or bring their indoor toys outside.
2. Those kids CONSTANTLY ask my kids to bring their toys outside. My kids feel guilt-tripped or pressured into doing it. We've told them they can say no and back them up when they do say no.
Last week, a kid pressured my daughter into bringing Barbies outside. The same kid then played rough and broke one of the Barbies (this is common - the girl always breaks everyone else's stuff).
My daughter was very frustrated and got upset. Not sure what happened outside, but she was absolutely raging inside (being tired, hungry and having a bad school day contributed to her mood).
I sent a group message to neighborhood parents indicating that we were not allowing toys to go outside anymore and to kindly ask their kids to not pressure my kids. I didn't point any fingers or call anyone out (we've lost lots of expensive toys due to outside play and others breaking them). One of the other parents sent a long-winded response back, pointing out my daughter's issues. I feel that went way too far in a group chat. I understand feeling defensive, but throwing it back in my face wasn't called for. Another parent gently piled on, intimating that my daughter was in the wrong for being emotional.
That mom's daughter now won't talk to my kid (who is heartbroken). We're taking a break from the neighborhood kids and being focused on family and/or other friends. I'm still angry at that other family and other neighbors, since I feel like my message was diplomatic and addressed to everyone, not just one specific kid's family.
Any thoughts on how to mediate? We feel like we're been thrown out of the neighborhood "clique" over this. Not that I care about being in a clique, but it's a little awkward being the one who called people out and then having shit thrown back at me.
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How honest are we being? Seriously. I mean, I'm not going to be rude to you or anything like that, but I have strong feelings on this.
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And how old are these kids we're talking about?
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We built in a new subdivision 10 years ago next month.....for the reason of our kids having the experience that we had as kids. Get outside, run around and just 'play' and interact with all the other kids.
Our approach the entire time when any type of conflict has happened with our kids and the neighbor kids is and remains....."figure it out". Been pretty hands off when it comes to how they interact with any of the other kids. Like Bill mentioned, I don't know if you'd like what I really think? If she's upset about her Barbie being broke then honestly, she shouldn't have taken it outside. She made the choice to and unfortunately it was broke but that was always a possibility.
With kids being more and more isolated I love the fact that your kids are still playing outside because it's just good for them to interact and do stuff like that. But my advice in the situation is I'd stay out of it. They have to learn how to deal with others...the jerks...the 'nice' kids....the 'weirdos'.....all of them.
As far as the neighborhood text chain and all that.....that's a whole different topic. It's easy to judge how neighbors are raising kids or the choices they make but it's something we shouldn't judge. We're all trying to figure this crap out....some of us do things differently than others but it doesn't make one way right or wrong.
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Yeah, triggering off Gary's post, but my line of reasoning was around the text/chat group thing.
I sorta agree with the idea that "she brought it out"; I think if that was a risk that was too much to bear, it was on your household to keep the Barbie inside. No one outside your house needs to know the reasoning, or any of the sausage-making that goes into the decision, but if you want to preserve the Barbie, keep it inside. But that's not the big issue here, for me.
The main point is, I think you all need to talk in person. I can't image parenting through a group chat. No thanks. The posting thing makes people defensive and puts a record out there that some people feel the need to respond to. That's not the same thing as reaching an understanding so your kids can all play together. Now, I'm not pointing at you, because even though I disagree with the notion of the group chat, the real shame is on that other parent for letting it bleed down to the kids - KIDS ARE NOT ADULTS - but still. And again, I'm not just pointing at you; it's the group. Sorry to move into potential P/R territory, but those of you that post over there and hear about my "America has a massive insecurity complex", this is an example of that. That parent that responded with the post that disparaged Grappler's kid is a douchebag. It's not about you. It's not a contest. It's not a court case. Do you really feel THAT insecure that you have to throw a neighbor's kid under the bus to make your point? Grow the fuck up (the other guy, Grappler, not you).
I think we're all so happy the KIDS are outside playing getting fresh air... I think the parents ought to take the hint and do the same, not sending shots via text/email/message board (again, the other guy, Grappler, not you).
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Our approach the entire time when any type of conflict has happened with our kids and the neighbor kids is and remains....."figure it out". Been pretty hands off when it comes to how they interact with any of the other kids. Like Bill mentioned, I don't know if you'd like what I really think? If she's upset about her Barbie being broke then honestly, she shouldn't have taken it outside. She made the choice to and unfortunately it was broke but that was always a possibility.
We generally agree with this, and there are lots of variables that I couldn't really include in my original post. My point in the group text wasn't a broken toy, but the constant pressuring and guilt-tripping of our kids to provide toys for the neighborhood kids.
A lot of the conflict has to do with the various parenting styles:
Parent 1 - very hands off, lets the kids figure it out. Does not let their kid play inside other's houses and prefers outside play when nice.
Parent 2 - very loose parenting style and open with kids
Parent 3 - thinks their only child is perfect and doesn't get the whole story (i.e., kid will tell their mom that my kid got angry with her, but leaves out the cause - the emotional manipulation of my child in order to constantly get her way).
It's just hard to navigate certain things without pissing someone off, or having a parent tell you that your own kid isn't perfect either (I know this first hand and we work on it daily - sadly, her emotional issues are now a social element, with other families being aware of them and stigmatizing her).
Thanks for the input - I'm inclined to see if it blows over in the coming weeks. In the meantime, we're spending more time together as a family, which is nice.
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Our approach the entire time when any type of conflict has happened with our kids and the neighbor kids is and remains....."figure it out". Been pretty hands off when it comes to how they interact with any of the other kids. Like Bill mentioned, I don't know if you'd like what I really think? If she's upset about her Barbie being broke then honestly, she shouldn't have taken it outside. She made the choice to and unfortunately it was broke but that was always a possibility.
We generally agree with this, and there are lots of variables that I couldn't really include in my original post. My point in the group text wasn't a broken toy, but the constant pressuring and guilt-tripping of our kids to provide toys for the neighborhood kids.
A lot of the conflict has to do with the various parenting styles:
Parent 1 - very hands off, lets the kids figure it out. Does not let their kid play inside other's houses and prefers outside play when nice.
Parent 2 - very loose parenting style and open with kids
Parent 3 - thinks their only child is perfect and doesn't get the whole story (i.e., kid will tell their mom that my kid got angry with her, but leaves out the cause - the emotional manipulation of my child in order to constantly get her way).
It's just hard to navigate certain things without pissing someone off, or having a parent tell you that your own kid isn't perfect either (I know this first hand and we work on it daily - sadly, her emotional issues are now a social element, with other families being aware of them and stigmatizing her).
Thanks for the input - I'm inclined to see if it blows over in the coming weeks. In the meantime, we're spending more time together as a family, which is nice.
This really moved me, and makes me even more pissed off at that other parent for making it about the kids, which is so easy to do when you're not face to face with the child or the parent. The "village" idea is that your daughter would get the help and support she needs. You're clearly giving her the help, and the rest of those a-holes ought to put their own insecurity aside and give her the support she needs. It's what decent people do.
And it can be done without stigmatizing her. If it was me, and I parented one of those other kids, I'd be like "hey, stop with the asking for toys. We told you you couldn't bring YOUR toys out, that wasn't so you could go ask others for theirs. You've got plenty to do outside without asking other kids for their toys."
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This really moved me, and makes me even more pissed off at that other parent for making it about the kids, which is so easy to do when you're not face to face with the child or the parent. The "village" idea is that your daughter would get the help and support she needs. You're clearly giving her the help, and the rest of those a-holes ought to put their own insecurity aside and give her the support she needs. It's what decent people do.
And it can be done without stigmatizing her. If it was me, and I parented one of those other kids, I'd be like "hey, stop with the asking for toys. We told you you couldn't bring YOUR toys out, that wasn't so you could go ask others for theirs. You've got plenty to do outside without asking other kids for their toys."
I appreciate that. Your second paragraph was exactly my intent when I created a group chat. I had a bad day with work, came down with a stomach bug, and then struggled with the kids and the dog. All I meant was exactly like you said - "kindly ask your kids to stop pressuring my kids to be the toy supplier."
As my daughter has gotten older (she's almost 9) she's developed some anxiety issues. Her emotions come out in fits of anger (triggered by being tired, hungry and/or agitated by other kids easily), so the other parents will stigmatize her as being unsafe to be around. They don't see the manipulation - she feels used by the other kids by being the toy supplier, the younger kids will push her buttons so they can get their way and not share or play fairly. It's been rough on her to fall in love with these kids, then clash with them.
I wasn't expecting one of the other parents to say "well, your daughter doesn't take no for an answer either." I know she doesn't, try living with her! :lol It just felt unfair for a couple of parents to gang up on her a little in a group chat, one vocally, one just saying "we're done having our kid play with her." It is what it is for now and it's giving us some time to be together as a family and bond again, which helps us. So there is a silver lining, even if she is heartbroken that her usual friends don't want to play with her for now.
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It IS heartbreaking; but hopefully you can make this a positive learning experience for your daughter. I'd like to think the memory of the kids is short, and they'll put by-gones aside the next time something fun comes up outside. Good luck, man!! We'll be thinking about you and your fam!
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I'm so tired of big sister (4.5) pushing/hitting her little brother (1.5). Between the kids in my classes being absolute teenagers and my own kids hitting, I am going to go insane.
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We have a lot of minor shuffles in my house too. The 3 year old pushes over the 1 year old a lot. My older kids hit and push a lot too. So frustrating. Nothing we do seems to make it better.
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We have a lot of minor shuffles in my house too. The 3 year old pushes over the 1 year old a lot. My older kids hit and push a lot too. So frustrating. Nothing we do seems to make it better.
The grandkids are like that too (6 and 2). Doesn't help that the 2 year old is aggressive and has all the makings of an NFL middle linebacker. But it's disturbing, because it's almost like the 6 year old goes out of his way to hit/hurt his brother. But they generally get along great; it's weird.