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Dream Theater => Dream Theater => Topic started by: Samsara on December 01, 2016, 02:26:01 PM
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I think most fans will agree that Mike Portnoy was instrumental in the growth and development of Dream Theater. He was one of the core creative writers/arrangers in the band, and he was the public face of Dream Theater, helping develop the band's image with fans and the media. Now that some time has passed since his departure, and his statements in the past year about missing aspects of Dream Theater, I was thinking -- it is really odd he does not have a prog metal band of his own to move forward in the genre, working off of DT songs, and of course, new material.
I mean, consider that Portnoy, whether you agree with how he went about things or not, was a founding member and decision maker in the band. He didn't write many songs, musically, but he did do arrangements, and he did write lyrics. He was neck deep in every creative aspect and decision Dream Theater made. I don't think there's any dispute there.
So why hasn't he embraced starting a new prog metal band? He's got the connections, he can find the right people, and it's obvious he's proud of the songs. I'm not saying this potential band would only play Dream Theater, but that Dream Theater's catalog, particularly the songs Mike either wrote lyrically, or was instrumental in their development, could serve as a template. I think, if Mike did something like that, it would grab the attention of most prog metal fans.
To a degree, his one-off "Shattered Fortress" next year may be the precursor to this idea, but it's about time, ya know? He's obviously not going to be back in Dream Theater. Anyone reading the tea leaves can see the band is happy the way things are. A good operatic, dependable singer is hard to find, but there are guys out there. Virtuoso players are abound these days. In theory, all of this should be entirely doable by Mike, and give him that leadership aspect he has said he is missing, and gives fans more prog metal (along with another band playing select DT songs at the same level as DT).
I wouldn't view this as competing with DT, as much as Mike embracing his love of prog metal, and his desire to be a band leader again. The well hasn't run dry with MP, and it'd be a nice way for him to potentially use DT songs as a jumping off point to create something powerful and new.
Thoughts?
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Well, I always wondered the same thing, specially after all these years, but he has always said he enjoys his current thousand bands and the different styles he plays with each one. For what he's said, he currently has no interest on it.
If he does, though, that would cause a LOT of comparisons between it and DT, it's just inevitable at this point :-\
Last, his biggest missed opportunity was when he announced a new band with Russell Allen, which most of us thought would be a new prog metal band... and ended up being Adrenaline Mob :facepalm:
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I think he answered your questions on a thousand interviews.
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Not really. Not recently. I don't believe for a second Portnoy is content without being a band leader in a prog metal band. He helped build the biggest prog metal band in the world, which got bigger after he left. With his personality, he absolutely wants it again -- but just hasn't come out and directly said it. Shattered Fortress, I think, is going to be a precursor to something.
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I think at this stage in his life, it's harder to start a new prog metal band off the ground than a hard rock band like Winery Dogs. I don't think he has the drive anymore for this. He has other musical outlets and has been a hired gun for others and I truly believe he enjoys it.
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I could be wrong, but I don't think it is about "drive" at all. I personally think the fact that we have not seen him form a full-on, permanent prog metal band is contributed to by two factors. I am purely guessing, but here's my take:
1. He is extremely hesitant because, no matter how "different" it is, it will inevitably be seen as an attempt to "compete with" or "one-up" Dream Theater, and when it never achieves the success of DT, a certain segment of the fan base will crucify him over it. I would think this would make him extremely hesitant.
2. I think maybe the planned collaboration with Akerfelt and Wilson was, in his mind, maybe going to turn into a viable prog super group that he could tout as his answer to the critics. But when that fell through, I think maybe it may have been his best opportunity to put something together that would have big enough name recognition to garner immediate success.
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What Bosk said + I think the only way for MP to get involved in prog metal is through a super group formed by other prog metal figures. Problem with that is I don't see anybody from a prog metal band doing a prog metal side project, most musicians seem to enjoy doing something different from their main band.
The other possibility is if Haken ever needs a drummer, I can see Portnoy wanting that job, but there's no way it'd be permanent.
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Interesting responses so far. I disagree about Mike. I think he absolutely wants a permanent prog metal gig. I guess time will tell. I don't think he fears being crucified at this point. He misses playing those songs the helped create. Just a hunch, but I think we'll see him do something along those lines in late 2017.
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I love Mike and he is one of my top 3 drummers, but do you guys think he could pull off a song like The Architect?
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Shattered Fortress, I think, is going to be a precursor to something.
I do too.
This music was his love for so long.
1. He is extremely hesitant because, no matter how "different" it is, it will inevitably be seen as an attempt to "compete with" or "one-up" Dream Theater, and when it never achieves the success of DT, a certain segment of the fan base will crucify him over it. I would think this would make him extremely hesitant.
This is a great point and I agree with it. MP is too aware to not be cognizant of this.
Just a hunch, but I think we'll see him do something along those lines in late 2017.
Just a hunch?? Spill the beans bro!
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I agree with bosk, and would raise it even further in that his drumming would also get measured against modern drumming greats. That's probably another can of worms he's not keen in opening. I mean, look at the audition documentary, half of those guys run circles around MP when it comes to drumming. (He himself has said something along those lines)
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I love Mike and he is one of my top 3 drummers, but do you guys think he could pull off a song like The Architect?
I don't think there are any Haken songs he can't do. He might struggle with any blast beat sections but Haken doesn't utilize those much anyway. Portnoy hasn't done DT level technical music in such a long time that I think people forget how much of a more than capable drummer he is. Maybe not at the level of the modern prog metal elites, but imo the Haken guy isn't near that level either.
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Interesting responses so far. I disagree about Mike. I think he absolutely wants a permanent prog metal gig.
He has actually said he doesn't, multiple times. Just read any of his latest interviews :lol
Now, what someone says isn't always what he/she wants, but, since we can't read his mind, we have to take his public words for it which are, basically something like "I'm happier than ever, I have so much musical freedom now, this is what I always wanted. There's so much more styles that I like than just prog metal".
Yes, I'm using my own words there, but this is basically what he said.
An example: https://noisefull.com/interviews/mike-portnoy
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Just taking what comes my way and not worrying too heavily on what might or does not.
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I agree that he won't want to open the comparison with DT. The haters would be all over that. Ain't nobody got time for that! If he's going to do it, he'll want to wait and do it right.
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I think he puts a lot of that energy into Transatlantic and The Neal Morse Band. Especially that last one has gotten exceedingly proggier.
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If he does a prog-metal project it will automatically be compared to Dream Theater and there will be a lot of hate and downputting on both sides (by the "fans", probably not by the musicians involved). And although he has many fans I doubt that he will reach the success and status that DT has today, so his band will always be the "little DT offspring". Not sure if he wants to submit himself to that.
And he's already a permanent member in four bands (Flying Colours, Neal Morse Band, Transatlantic, Winery Dogs) where he is more or less heavily involved with recording, touring, writing, promoting. Then there are his one off projects and his guest spots. I'm not sure if he has the time and energy to commit himself fully to yet another band, where he will be the leader and therefore has to spent even more time. Even for a workaholic the day has only 24 hours.
That said, I'm curious what comes out of his Shattered Fortress band.
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I think the current version of the Neal Morse collaboration (the Neal Morse Band) is his "answer" to the prog question. Eric Gillette is a very competent shredder and has a lot of very neat moments on the last album. So much so that MP constantly refers to him as a copy of JP (my paraphrasing, not his actual words).
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I think it makes sense that he wanted to break out of prog metal for a while at least. And he's done so many things throughout these years that it seems like he wanted to try new things.
And of course the comparisons to DT would be unavoidable so it makes sense that he hasn't pursued a prog metal band at this point.
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1. He is extremely hesitant because, no matter how "different" it is, it will inevitably be seen as an attempt to "compete with" or "one-up" Dream Theater, and when it never achieves the success of DT, a certain segment of the fan base will crucify him over it. I would think this would make him extremely hesitant.
I agree with this point, but I also have a gut feeling that aside from what any fans might think, deep down, part of him doesn't want to be "competing with" the DT music that he himself helped to create because most of his blood/sweat/tears throughout his life went into that and he is still very proud of it. Just my thoughts.
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bosk1's point makes a lot of sense. But MP is guided more by emotion than what makes practical sense. And that's not an insult, it just means he's an emotional guy and makes a lot of decisions based on his gut feelings and desires.
He has actually said he doesn't, multiple times. Just read any of his latest interviews :lol
Now, what someone says isn't always what he/she wants, but, since we can't read his mind, we have to take his public words for it which are, basically something like "I'm happier than ever, I have so much musical freedom now, this is what I always wanted. There's so much more styles that I like than just prog metal".
Yes, I'm using my own words there, but this is basically what he said.
An example: https://noisefull.com/interviews/mike-portnoy
Yes, that's fine, but no, I don't think we take his public words for it. As I said above, he's a guy who is driven by his emotions. What he said, that you paraphrased, is what makes his profile look good in the press. I don't believe a word of it, based on history. Sure, PART of him is happy, but there is a big part, which he alludes to, that misses what he had. And that, I think, will ultimately drive him.
This whole thread is speculation, so there's no right and wrong. But I judge the man based on what I've read, friends who know him and gave me some insight to his personality, and decisions MP has made in the past. All of that leads me to guess the time is coming where MP is going to go full on prog metal again and re-embrace his DT roots with a band.
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I don't know why some people assume that just because he played in a prog metal band for most of his career, he now has to go and form another prog metal band. Maybe that's the reason he doesn't do it.
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^^ absolutely.
When you look at the late MP-era DT albums and the strong influences they put into them (e.g. Muse), I think the point could be made that he was already dissatisfied with the constraints that DT put on him musicially. For a while he was trying to use DT as a vehicle to expand his musical interests, but when he left he probably didn't look back (musically) for quite a while. And with Neal Morse he gets his proggy fix anyway.
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I don't know why some people assume that just because he played in a prog metal band for most of his career, he now has to go and form another prog metal band. Maybe that's the reason he doesn't do it.
"Some people?" :lol
Just address me, since I am the one that started the thread. That's not why I assume he has to go and do it. I feel he will, based on what I said above. Which, as I also said, isn't right, and isn't wrong. It's a speculative opinion, which, I think is the point of discussion forums.
You may be entirely correct, but so could I. That's the frustrating beauty of the forum, right? :tup
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When you look at the late MP-era DT albums and the strong influences they put into them (e.g. Muse), I think the point could be made that he was already dissatisfied with the constraints that DT put on him musicially. For a while he was trying to use DT as a vehicle to expand his musical interests, but when he left he probably didn't look (musically) for quite a while. And with Neal Morse he gets his proggy fix anyway.
All very true, rumbo. It actually was a big complaint of mine pre-MP departure. That doesn't change what I said above about MP being guided by his emotions, however. Shattered Fortress, and its reception, will likely guide that decision...
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We'll see, yeah. I mean, it looks like Mike was convinced that SOAD was going to be the prog epic the world was waiting for, but the poor reception of it might make him reconsider whatever prog plans he may have been having.
On another note, it's kinda kinda odd that both DT and MP invoked The Wall as a comparison for their latest album.
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I wouldn't say "odd." Floyd are a huge influence for Portnoy, Neal, and the DT guys. That, and there aren't that many really influential prog double concept albums out there. :lol
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We'll see, yeah. I mean, it looks like Mike was convinced that SOAD was going to be the prog epic the world was waiting for, but the poor reception of it [...]
Just curious - I've no horse in the race - but regarding the "poor reception", what are you basing that on?
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If rumborak and the people he knows generally do not like something, he believes it received a "poor reception."
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I disagree about Mike. I think he absolutely wants a permanent prog metal gig.
There is, literally, no evidence for that.
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I disagree about Mike. I think he absolutely wants a permanent prog metal gig.
There is, literally, no evidence for that.
Hef -- I never said there was...except for Shattered Fortress happening. It is entirely speculation, based on how I perceive Mike Portnoy's personality to be from observation over the years.
C'mon, I know I've been out of the DTF loop for awhile, but speculation is part of the fun! :D
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If rumborak and the people he knows generally do not like something, he believes it received a "poor reception."
MP himself no longer counts into your list of valid opinions? Getting more selective over the years, buddy.
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Link to the article/tweet/whatever as proof?
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https://www.mikeportnoy.com/forum/fb.ashx?m=2978619
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Ah, I thought you meant more of a poor critical reception.
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I never lose faith that he won't return to DT. As much the band can say "everything's great," many of us can tell it's not the same. My former singer /best friend and I had a falling out. I think much of the reason we haven't worked it out is stubbornness. It's a natural human emotion. Difficult to overcome.
As to why he doesn't have a prog band, maybe he simply doesn't want one. He doesn't need the money. I think Winery Dogs is great (thought I'm not a huge fan of Kotzen's singing). Maybe he likes have a million short-term projects.
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He helped form DT, formed LTE on his own and was instrumental in the huge success of both. What more could he possibly want to accomplish? I couldn't possibly expect any more from the guy than he's already given.
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I don't know why some people assume that just because he played in a prog metal band for most of his career, he now has to go and form another prog metal band. Maybe that's the reason he doesn't do it.
"Some people?" :lol
Just address me, since I am the one that started the thread. That's not why I assume he has to go and do it. I feel he will, based on what I said above. Which, as I also said, isn't right, and isn't wrong. It's a speculative opinion, which, I think is the point of discussion forums.
You may be entirely correct, but so could I. That's the frustrating beauty of the forum, right? :tup
Yes, but you are not the only person who thinks he should start a prog metal band or who asks that question, so that's why I wrote "some people". I wasn't just refering to you. I saw him saying in a lot of interviews that he also wanted to play other stlyes and not to be stuck in the prog metal label.
I am not saying your thread was pointless.
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Portnoy returning to Dream Theater at some point seems inevitable to me. I'm sure whatever ill feelings there were 5 years ago have now cooled somewhat, and, not to sound harsh, but Mangini doesn't seem to have injected himself as an irreplaceable member of the band the way Rudess had after three albums.
I don't think it will happen anytime soon, though. As long as DT have no reason to part from Mangini, I think they'll keep going with him as long as they stay on a regular tour/album cycle. Then, if they decided to take a break, I could see them coming back with MP for a special anniversary tour or something like that.
Gotta say, though. Scenes from a Memory 20th Anniversary Tour with Mike Portnoy on drums would definitely get me back in the seats.
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I haven't seen DT since 2000 - several reasons (dislike of TA, economic and incarceration!!!)
I may go on the next tour if I can afford it and if they don't play more than two or so songs from TA, but if MP was back for the aforementioned hypothetical Scenes Anniversary tour, I would pay whatever I had to.
I also think that a lot of what happens with the band in terms of members depends on if they are still financially viable. One thing that I respect so much about DT is their ability last as long and make a decent living.
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I also think that a lot of what happens with the band in terms of members depends on if they are still financially viable. One thing that I respect so much about DT is their ability last as long and make a decent living.
Short anecdote related to that: For those old enough (and hip enough) to know '80s band Y&T, I have posted a lot about them over the years, and have had a fair amount of interaction with them, especially front man/guitarist/band leader, Dave Meniketti. I have posted a lot about how, through the entire decade of the '80s, they were perpetually (and frustratingly) always 1 or 2 steps away from breaking huge, but never could quite manage to get over that hump. And it frustrated the band members as well to see bands that had basically been discovered or getting their break while opening for Y&T (Journey, Van Halen, Metallica, Crue, etc.). Meniketti is still a bit bitter about that to this day. But he also tempers that with some really good perspective and has said on more than one occasion that, in the grand scheme of things, it was better for him as a person that they never broke huge, and he is thankful that they were big enough that he was able to make a living for himself and sustain himself all these years by making music. In other words, they were just successful enough that he was able to live a comfortable (but not extravagant), although fairly modest, lifestyle through just playing music, being (relatively) smart with his money, and taking advantage of other opportunities that came through music (such as writing/playing jingles for commercials, etc.).
I mention that to say that I think the guys in DT are in kind of a similar situation, minus the frustration part. They have never been HUGE, and never will be. But they are big enough to make enough money to live comfortably and not have to do other stuff, as long as they are smart with their money, which they seem to be. And living that kind of lifestyle versus the life of a true megastar tends to keep one better grounded and make them more appreciative, which the members of DT tend to be.
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I also think that a lot of what happens with the band in terms of members depends on if they are still financially viable. One thing that I respect so much about DT is their ability last as long and make a decent living.
I mention that to say that I think the guys in DT are in kind of a similar situation, minus the frustration part. They have never been HUGE, and never will be. But they are big enough to make enough money to live comfortably and not have to do other stuff, as long as they are smart with their money, which they seem to be. And living that kind of lifestyle versus the life of a true megastar tends to keep one better grounded and make them more appreciative, which the members of DT tend to be.
This is what I have always admired about DT. I always thought bands were rockstars and huge money makers. DT was the first band that seemed to be different in this aspect...A few months later it dawned on me that they were hard working musicians and never "rich and famous". They were a huge inspiration for me (and still are to a degree) because of this (a humble hard working band).
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Y&T is a great under-rated band from my beloved hair band era. Dee Snider played "Contagious" a lot on House of Hair when I was able to listen to it. Great song.
DT will of course never be "huge" here, but they are "Big In Japan" :-)
When I first heard "I Walk Beside You" I really hoped it could be their "Owner of a Lonely Heart" so they could have that one big hit like YES did. They deserved it. I sorta felt it would make a good song for American Idol to play during the montage of the person just voted off. Too bad that didn't work out.
As far as I know Petrucci lives in St. James on Long Island. You have to be making a decent living to live there, so all the power to em!
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If rumborak and the people he knows generally do not like something, he believes it received a "poor reception."
MP himself no longer counts into your list of valid opinions? Getting more selective over the years, buddy.
:lol I'm not saying you aren't sometimes right, or that your take isn't sometimes valid. You sometimes are, and your opinion sometimes is. I'm just saying, that is your general approach, and has been as long as I have "known" you on these forums all these years.
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Fun fact - according to my parents, Black Tiger by Y&T was one of the first songs i ran around the house singing ... when i was 2 years old.
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Fun fact - according to my parents, Black Tiger by Y&T was one of the first songs i ran around the house singing ... when i was 2 years old.
:lol That is amazing. When they were letting fans come up onstage with them for the annual Meniketti birthday bashes in the early 2000's, I was hoping to get to play bass on that song. My friend Steve got to do rhythm guitar (and my former bandmates, Chaz and Marty, on bass and drums, respectively) with Meniketti on that song: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LX90_4uv9-E
But since I got to sing Meanstreak with the entire Y&T band a few years later, I can't complain. :lol
Anyway, sorry for the off-topic, but it is tangentially related, so... :lol
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We'll see, yeah. I mean, it looks like Mike was convinced that SOAD was going to be the prog epic the world was waiting for, but the poor reception of it might make him reconsider whatever prog plans he may have been having.
It has not received a poor reception. The sales being lower than he hoped is not the same as it being poorly received.
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I thought SOAD was getting good reception? I know I liked it when I clicked on a new video link. Prog breakthrough (in sales) is quite a bit different than your standard music breakthrough. It is more about a fanbase giving it a kick on release, and then that's usually about it.
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I thought SOAD was getting good reception?
It is. Its sales are higher than normal for a Neal release, and most fans seem to really like it or love it, so the reception has been very positive.
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Portnoy joined System of A Down ? :neverusethis:
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I can't help but think Stormtroopers Of (a) Death when I see it. He is Portnoy420 afterall, so the System of a Down thing sounds like it holds some merit.
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So let me get this straight..MP joined Y&T??
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Y&T, MP, Twisted Sister - Six Degrees
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fazyu_0IamA
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One aspect in my opinion is that he's simply extremely busy now. He has a very tight personal and musical connection with Neal Morse, and they have three (in my opinion great) projects together, which are all in constant rotation (Flying Colors is apparently next up). Then there's the Winery Dogs (not my cup of tea, but still very good), and he's also had the Twisted Sister gig, and Metal Allegiance, and Adrenaline Mob (which I actually liked). I dunno, I'm one of the resident fanboys on his site and I try to follow him as much as I can (I'm not on any social media), but my (very possibly completely wrong) impression is that the last 6 years were pretty hard for him, and the projects he has now give him some kind of peace and calm and musical satisfaction. He seems to value good, healthy professional relationships a lot more now. He spent 25 years doing prog metal and he's spent the time since he left Dream Theater exploring other musical avenues. It would have been strange to leave DT only to then quickly start a similar band from the ground up, using musicians who (in my opinion of course) couldn't possibly hope to be of the calibre of Petrucci, Myung and Rudess. For me, between the 'epicness' of Transatlantic and the melody of Neal Morse and the heaviness of Metal Allegiance and (occasionally) The Winery Dogs and the tunefulness of Flying Colors, he kind of has everything Dream Theater do, just spread across several bands.
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I think that is a great way to sum it up, Dave_Manchester. :tup :tup
Portnoy has done tons of prog and metal since leaving Dream Theater, just not both at once (even Neal Morse at his most rocking is never metal).
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Friends don't let friends prog and metal.
I know it is not normally considered American to ban genres. But there is one genre that has caused so much damage, that we believe that it should finally be made illegal. I'm talking of course about the genre "prog metal". Two genres which by themselves can be harmless, but which together form an auditory missile of cheese.
From now on, if a prog metal musician quits their prog metal band, their next prog metal release must be separated by no less than 7 years.
So OP is correct. An MP prog metal album is due next year.
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We'll see, yeah. I mean, it looks like Mike was convinced that SOAD was going to be the prog epic the world was waiting for, but the poor reception of it might make him reconsider whatever prog plans he may have been having.
It has not received a poor reception. The sales being lower than he hoped is not the same as it being poorly received.
Yeah, I meant reception in a much wider sense here, not just what people think about it, but also how many people listen to it in the first place.
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Well, I suspect Portnoy had unrealistic expectations, thinking that everyone who follows him on Twitter and FB is automatically going to listen to whatever he recommends, but like I said before, sales are higher than every other Neal solo/NMB album to date so far, and most reviews have ranged from very good to glowing.
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Believe it or not, I actually wish Mike would turn Shattered Fortress into a full project with new material. I've given everything he has done a fair shake and haven't really dug any of it. Out of everything post-DT he has done, the only one that has any decent moments has been Adrenaline Mob and I really don't think that is very good overall.
I was looking forward to Metal Allegiance but nothing really grabbed me.
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I think what people always seem to underestimate in these discussions, good songwriters don't grow on trees. There's so many bands in the genre that seemingly have all the pieces in place: great singer, skilled musicians. But most of them don't even gain traction from the people who love the genre.
Mike is a drummer, and as such he is reliant on a songwriter. In DT that was JP, now he has Neal Morse and Richie Kotzen, with both of them already known for their songwriting before Mike joined them.
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it may not be prog metal, but for those who didn't hear it, That Drummer Guy JRundquist interviewed Portnoy a couple of weeks ago and he mentions another new "secret project" in the works:
https://youtu.be/SHVcRJRbjLM?t=1616
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it may not be prog metal, but for those who didn't hear it, That Drummer Guy JRundquist interviewed Portnoy a couple of weeks ago and he mentions another new "secret project" in the works:
https://youtu.be/SHVcRJRbjLM?t=1616
Probably he finally got his project with Mikael Akerfeldt? I find it funny that Portnoy has always wanted to collaborate with him, since the Progressive Nation days (2008-2009), and Mikael has never ever talked about that, not even as something he wants to do in the future :lol And I'm pretty sure MP has talked (a lot) with him about that :P
I think what people always seem to underestimate in these discussions, good songwriters don't grow on trees. There's so many bands in the genre that seemingly have all the pieces in place: great singer, skilled musicians. But most of them don't even gain traction from the people who love the genre.
Mike is a drummer, and as such he is reliant on a songwriter. In DT that was JP, now he has Neal Morse and Richie Kotzen, with both of them already known for their songwriting before Mike joined them.
This. Mike has always been more the kind of guy who listens to a lot of the songwriting and then says "you should change this and that. repeat this section here and move the solo over there", kind of what a producer would do, but he definitely needs someone to come up with most, if not all, the musical writing first.
If he ever started a new prog metal band with him as a leader, even if he gets the most amazing lineup of musicians, he would still need someone like JP or Neal to come up with a lot of songs
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No clue who the new project is with but IF it would finally happen with Akerfeldt and Wilson I would be ecstatic. There is no way they
could make an uninteresting album. I doubt it's them though. MA and SW seem pretty busy.
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In all of the recent interviews with Akerfeldt, there has been nothing to indicate he wants to do anything beyond what he currently is doing, including going back to a heavy prog style, which he seems to think less of. Same with Wilson.
So it's probably not going to be them. Invoking their names more often won't make it more likely.
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No clue who the new project is with but IF it would finally happen with Akerfeldt and Wilson I would be ecstatic. There is no way they
could make an uninteresting album. I doubt it's them though. MA and SW seem pretty busy.
When asked, Portnoy has always said he wants to make a musical project with Akerfeldt, but has never mentioned Steven Wilson. That original idea was what would eventually turn into Storm Corrosion, and, after that, Mike has still talked about his interest in working with MA.
Still, as just stated by Adami, Akerfeldt doesn't seem to have too much interest on any of that, so this new Portnoy project must be something completely different and, let's hope, good.
About his post DT work, I've only liked the albums he did with Neal Morse, Transatlantic (both which existed before he left DT), Flying Colors and always hoped PSMS would make an original album, but never happened :'(
His other current projects just don't interest me at all :-\
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In all of the recent interviews with Akerfeldt, there has been nothing to indicate he wants to do anything beyond what he currently is doing, including going back to a heavy prog style, which he seems to think less of. Same with Wilson.
So it's probably not going to be them. Invoking their names more often won't make it more likely.
I think the whole Wilson/Akerfeldt thing was at best an idea bandied around between them before Storm Corrosion happened. To my understanding that's the project that actually came of the collaboration talks.
So, I have zero expectations that anything will happen between them at this point. Steven and Mikael are also in totally different musical spaces than MP. I have a hard time imagining them being interested.
Also, they have the phone numbers of Gavin Harrison, Marco Minnemann, Craig Blundell and Martin Axenrot on speed dial.
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Circling it back around to Dream Theater, project or not, I am talking basing a band around the catalog of songs from DT that Mike helped write and contribute to. I just don't see him as a person content to not play those songs again regularly. You can tell, when he does play them, how much he misses it. It's in his energy.
I think it is a matter of time before he comes full circle -- not with DT, but back to those DT songs and prog metal.
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I need to get clarification of a term here, to make sense of this discussion.
A couple mentions of the "Shattered Fortress project." Are y'all talking about the 12-Step Suite? SF is the last song in that collection, so I assume that's what we're talking about.
I'm not going to say this as if no one here knows it, but there are apparently two 2017 planned performances of this particular set of songs - the Prog Cruise in January, and a festival in September. I won't be making it to either, so I am kind of hoping that there is another chance to see Mike do this all together sometime. I'll ask when I do the Neal Morse Band meet and greet in DC in February.
I have only recently heard of the existence of this as a sub-set of DT songs, though the 12step themes are obvious to anyone with a passing knowledge of the program.
Can I assume that these very Mike songs are pretty much left alone and not done at DT shows since his departure?
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Can I assume that these very Mike songs are pretty much left alone and not done at DT shows since his departure?
DT have played The Shattered Fortress many times with MM. I wouldn't expect DT to ever play the entire suite together, but they're not avoiding the songs. Which is good, because I'm still waiting to hear THE GLASS PRISON DANGIT.
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Can I assume that these very Mike songs are pretty much left alone and not done at DT shows since his departure?
I think the only songs that are very closely associated with MP that may be "off limits" to DT (not officially but I doubt that they would play them) would be the entire 12 Step Suite straight through especially Repentance (although they may play parts separately and have in fact played The Root of all Evil and The Shattered Fortress with MM) and The Best of Times.
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The only song I'd expect DT to intentionally avoid due to being personal to MP would be TBOT, and it's not a song I'd expect them to play regardless. Nothing from the 12SS would surprise me.
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I suspect the lack of TGP is due to JP. Of all the songs that I played live in my DT tribute band back in the day, TGP stood out because it was insanely tiring. All other DT songs had nice resting periods in sections, but TGP has very few. There's a solo towards the end that I could play with ease when rested, but by the time you get to it in the song, you're bound to do a sloppy job.
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I also doubt they'll play Repentance. Not because of Portnoy, but because it hasn't gone over too well with fans (even though it's my favorite off the album).
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I also doubt they'll play Repentance. Not because of Portnoy, but because it hasn't gone over too well with fans (even though it's my favorite off the album).
Repentance and TGP are my favorites from the 12SS, hope they play them both again in the future.
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I suspect the lack of TGP is due to JP. Of all the songs that I played live in my DT tribute band back in the day, TGP stood out because it was insanely tiring. All other DT songs had nice resting periods in sections, but TGP has very few. There's a solo towards the end that I could play with ease when rested, but by the time you get to it in the song, you're bound to do a sloppy job.
The arpeggios at the start are so fast. They're not even smack-bang on the beat on the actual album.
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I suspect the lack of TGP is due to JP. Of all the songs that I played live in my DT tribute band back in the day, TGP stood out because it was insanely tiring. All other DT songs had nice resting periods in sections, but TGP has very few. There's a solo towards the end that I could play with ease when rested, but by the time you get to it in the song, you're bound to do a sloppy job.
The arpeggios at the start are so fast. They're not even smack-bang on the beat on the actual album.
True that. JP does lag a little behind the beat if you listen closely, and the timing isn't spot on 32nds (or whatever it is there), sometimes little triplets creep in with some duplicated notes.
They were never perfect live even at the time (especially with live tempo), so I wouldn't expect it to be flawless now either. I don't mind though, I'd still love to hear it, and appreciate how much of a monster that song is to pull off.
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And these reasons are the same reason I'm skeptical of the whole Shattered Fortress thing. It's an one hour onslaught of high tempo, highly complex music with very little downtime other than Repentance. And the covers i have seen from the MP bands thus far has been very underwhelming (PSMS and Metal Allegiance). And thats on tracks with far less complexity (stuff even I could play).
If JP cant play this live properly, how the hell is a cover band supposed to?
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But MP has the option of using multiple musicians.
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But MP has the option of using multiple musicians.
Indeed. He has lots of friends, he can use multiple guitarists throughout the suite (even within the same song).
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Well, take into consideration that this is supposed to be a band that can travel as well.
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My guess is that the band will have 2 guitars, to make a richer live arrangement and to give some "rest" to one of them while the other is playing a harder part.
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Well, take into consideration that this is supposed to be a band that can travel as well.
I thought they were only doing two performances.
Maybe I missed something (not unlikely).
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Three have been announced thus far, with more coming...
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Well, take into consideration that this is supposed to be a band that can travel as well.
I thought they were only doing two performances.
Maybe I missed something (not unlikely).
I think they announced 4: The cruise, Prog Power, Night of the Prog and Be Prog. My Friend. So it's probably going to be just one set of musicians for all the 12SS/DT songs they decide to play.
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Interesting, yet not surprising comment from Mike on his FB page regarding the Mexico City gig...
Mike Portnoy : There's no guarantee I'll be filming these...and even if I was, I can't guarantee I can even release it without DT's consent...
These are once in a lifetime shows...catch em while you can!
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Interesting, yet not surprising comment from Mike on his FB page regarding the Mexico City gig...
Mike Portnoy : There's no guarantee I'll be filming these...and even if I was, I can't guarantee I can even release it without DT's consent...
These are once in a lifetime shows...catch em while you can!
That sounds about right. I mean no one outside of the band and the band's management really knows what the details of the separation were, but I'd imagine that if Mike were to play songs that were written by "Dream Theater" and sell those songs as a live DVD, he'd need the permission of Dream Theater to do so. Now whether they would give him permission or not is an interesting question...
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Interesting, yet not surprising comment from Mike on his FB page regarding the Mexico City gig...
Mike Portnoy : There's no guarantee I'll be filming these...and even if I was, I can't guarantee I can even release it without DT's consent...
These are once in a lifetime shows...catch em while you can!
Not sure it's interesting or surprising. It's just the legal truth. You can't sell your performance of material without the permission of the copyright holder.
I don't necessarily think that DT would withhold consent, but that consent would still have to be sought by MP before any recording could be released. Same thing with DT releasing their cover performances through Ytsejam Records - they had to get the consent of Iron Maiden, Deep Purple, Pink Floyd, and Metallica.
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Mike released Repentance with Flying Colors on their first live CD. Probably DT has given permission then and I think they will for future releases. Why shouldn't they?
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Mike released Repentance with Flying Colors on their first live CD. Probably DT has given permission then and I think they will for future releases. Why shouldn't they?
I don't think they would. It's just another hoop that would have to be jumped through.
Honestly, he probably would have been better off just to say the performances probably won't be filmed.
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Interesting, yet not surprising comment from Mike on his FB page regarding the Mexico City gig...
Mike Portnoy : There's no guarantee I'll be filming these...and even if I was, I can't guarantee I can even release it without DT's consent...
These are once in a lifetime shows...catch em while you can!
Prepare for the facebook MPWarrior attack:
Those guys in DT are so mean!! You are the best!! They should let you do whatever you want with those songs because they are YOURS!!
Note: I really don't have anything against the Shattered Fortress. As noxon said, I'm a little bit doubtful of how it will turn out but it's a cool idea nevertheless, but his hardcore fans have a very special talent to make MP look good and make the rest of DT look bad in any given situation lol.
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Honestly, he probably would have been better off just to say the performances probably won't be filmed.
Yeah, this.
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Interesting, yet not surprising comment from Mike on his FB page regarding the Mexico City gig...
Mike Portnoy : There's no guarantee I'll be filming these...and even if I was, I can't guarantee I can even release it without DT's consent...
These are once in a lifetime shows...catch em while you can!
Prepare for the facebook MPWarrior attack:
Those guys in DT are so mean!! You are the best!! They should let you do whatever you want with those songs because they are YOURS!!
Note: I really don't have anything against the Shattered Fortress. As noxon said, I'm a little bit doubtful of how it will turn out but it's a cool idea nevertheless, but his hardcore fans have a very special talent to make MP look good and make the rest of DT look bad in any given situation lol.
Yep, that's why I stopped following Mike's fb page months ago. However, Mike's comments are the ones who add fuel to the fire in the first place. As said by hef, he should've just said "I don't think they'll be filmed", but no, Mikey always has to include the "don't know if they'll allow me to do it", and bam! all the MP fanboys are triggered :facepalm:
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Btw, about the Mexico show, the other bands playing are his son's band (Next to None) and Haken, just those two bands. I think this isn't just a coincidence, my bet is that MP's Shattered Fortress has, at least, one member of Haken. Most likely Diego Tejeida.
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Btw, about the Mexico show, the other bands playing are his son's band (Next to None) and Haken, just those two bands. I think this isn't just a coincidence, my bet is that MP's Shattered Fortress has, at least, one member of Haken. Most likely Diego Tejeida.
I would love to hear Ross Jennings sing those songs.
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DT couldn't stop a release of a live recording of those tracks even if they wanted to. All music publishing rights are signed off to BMI/ASCAP and for that reason anyone can release a live recording as long as they pay BMI/ASCAP the money for royalties for using those songs. I know this because i've done it - with DT material that contained non-DT tracks/pieces of. I just wrote a list of the music i was using - including DTs, and paid the copyright, and that was that.
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Btw, about the Mexico show, the other bands playing are his son's band (Next to None) and Haken, just those two bands. I think this isn't just a coincidence, my bet is that MP's Shattered Fortress has, at least, one member of Haken. Most likely Diego Tejeida.
I would love to hear Ross Jennings sing those songs.
Would love it too. The version of The Mirror they did with MP was great.
However, I think he'll go with another vocalist, someone similar to Russell Allen, I guess.
DT couldn't stop a release of a live recording of those tracks even if they wanted to. All music publishing rights are signed off to BMI/ASCAP and for that reason anyone can release a live recording as long as they pay BMI/ASCAP the money for royalties for using those songs. I know this because i've done it - with DT material that contained non-DT tracks/pieces of. I just wrote a list of the music i was using - including DTs, and paid the copyright, and that was that.
Well, maybe it's a condition they gave him after he quit the band, and he had to agree. It's either that, or Mike just said it to make a more dramatic "come to see it or you'll regret it" vibe (while also triggering his MP warriors at the same time)
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DT couldn't stop a release of a live recording of those tracks even if they wanted to. All music publishing rights are signed off to BMI/ASCAP and for that reason anyone can release a live recording as long as they pay BMI/ASCAP the money for royalties for using those songs. I know this because i've done it - with DT material that contained non-DT tracks/pieces of. I just wrote a list of the music i was using - including DTs, and paid the copyright, and that was that.
If that's the case, then MP would know that. If MP knows that, why on earth would he answer that question on FB that way?
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Well, what Noxon said is basically true as to the general rule of law. But in practice, this sort of thing can get much, much more messy. Bands, labels, etc. do file lawsuits over this kind of thing. It ends up being more nuanced sometimes, and can be an expensive and time-consuming proposition to litigate, even though those kinds of lawsuits don't end up going anywhere. I say all that just to say that Mike is not a lawyer and may very well NOT know all the rules and legal nuances. There are lots of things to fault him for, but this comment isn't really one of them.
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Oh I'm not trying to say Mike was at fault here, I'm kinda just curious. I wouldn't expect Mike to know legal nuances, but knowing his personality I'd bet that as soon as he put this project together, he thought about filming it and releasing it, that's a very Mike thing to do (and a great idea). So I guess I figured he would have asked his legal counsel or looked into it already, purely speculation on my part. Like I said though, I'm not trying to say he's at fault, just more curious than anything else.
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Oh I'm not trying to say Mike was at fault here, I'm kinda just curious. I wouldn't expect Mike to know legal nuances, but knowing his personality I'd bet that as soon as he put this project together, he thought about filming it and releasing it, that's a very Mike thing to do (and a great idea). So I guess I figured he would have asked his legal counsel or looked into it already, purely speculation on my part. Like I said though, I'm not trying to say he's at fault, just more curious than anything else.
Plus, he has already recorded and released live albums with Flying Colors and PSMS, each containing at least one DT song, so he should already know if he's allowed, or not, to put out DT material with another band. Maybe the conditions change if the album has only DT songs, but I don't think the case would be that much different.
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Well, what Noxon said is basically true as to the general rule of law. But in practice, this sort of thing can get much, much more messy. Bands, labels, etc. do file lawsuits over this kind of thing. It ends up being more nuanced sometimes, and can be an expensive and time-consuming proposition to litigate, even though those kinds of lawsuits don't end up going anywhere. I say all that just to say that Mike is not a lawyer and may very well NOT know all the rules and legal nuances. There are lots of things to fault him for, but this comment isn't really one of them.
You guys seem to know much more about this than me but keep in mind Slash was prevented from releasing a live album in the US because it had GNR songs. For some reason he was able to release it in Europe but not here.
Oh I'm not trying to say Mike was at fault here, I'm kinda just curious. I wouldn't expect Mike to know legal nuances, but knowing his personality I'd bet that as soon as he put this project together, he thought about filming it and releasing it, that's a very Mike thing to do (and a great idea). So I guess I figured he would have asked his legal counsel or looked into it already, purely speculation on my part. Like I said though, I'm not trying to say he's at fault, just more curious than anything else.
Plus, he has already recorded and released live albums with Flying Colors and PSMS, each containing at least one DT song, so he should already know if he's allowed, or not, to put out DT material with another band. Maybe the conditions change if the album has only DT songs, but I don't think the case would be that much different.
Maybe it has something to do with the fact that it is marketed exclusively on the back of Dream Theater.
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No idea if MP wants another prog band gig. To be honest, I did have the thought occur to me after he left DT that Mike was intentionally avoiding prog bands for a time. But it seems that that feeling wasn't founded on anything else than a hunch, he seems perfectly happy just doing his thing.
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Answer: Lee-Lifeson-Portnoy.
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Answer: Lee-Lifeson-Peartnoy.
FYI. ;)
B.Lee
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Answer: Lee-Lifeson-Portnoy.
No.