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Dream Theater => Dream Theater => Topic started by: Samsara on November 22, 2016, 11:50:48 AM
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I know Falling Into Infinity isn't a popular album among the majority of DT fans, but I love this record. I love the production, I love the melodies, and I think the edits and changes to the songs were appropriate.
But while I know the band is going out on a tour in support of the 25th of I&W (which is awesome), I was hoping they'd do a tip of the cap to Falling Into Infinity -- perhaps an extended encore ending with the incredible Trial of Tears. Maybe play a suite of FII tracks like they did with Awake.
A few questions -- is that feasible to expect? Why/why not?
Would fans be into it, if it were some of the more popular songs from that record? Why or why not?
And what songs, would you like to see in a suite (ala what they did for Awake)?
For me personally, I'd like for them to do a five-song suite consisting of:
New Millennium
Hell's Kitchen
Lines in the Sand
Anna Lee
Trial of Tears
>>>>Looking at track times, I think that's workable with a full performance of Images & Words. Thoughts?
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Unpopular opinion right here: I'd much rather see them tour for a 20th FII anniversary than for a 25th I&W anniversary.
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Nothing against Falling Into Infinity but I'm fine with the proper homage in the setlists: not being completely blacklisted but the best songs finding their way into the tracklist.
I've heard most of the regularly played tracks live, so now what I would be most interested in hearing would be Speak to Me, and just for the novelty of it, You Not Me, I kid you not. Also Peruvian Skies is always welcome.
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Oh, if we're going the expanded route, yes, "Speak to Me" would be ideal. Love that song.
Unpopular opinion right here: I'd much rather see them tour for a 20th FII anniversary than for a 25th I&W anniversary.
Not sure I'd go totally there (I think a tour in support of the band's most likely least popular record isn't feasible), but I would take it if they ever did do it! I just felt an I&W tour could kill two birds with one stone, and recognize FII too. :)
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Oh, I totally understand that an FII-specific tour would be a death knell. I just love that album to death. It's so different, in a good way.
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Oh, I totally understand that an FII-specific tour would be a death knell. I just love that album to death. It's so different, in a good way.
:metal Agreed!
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Well, if we could pick our own "ideal" scenario, mine would be:
Do a 6-song I&W suite, with two alternate set:
1. PMU, TTT, Metropolis, Another Day, WFS, LTL
2. PMU, TTT, UAGM, Surrounded, WFS, LTL
Then do 2 FII sets that are each half of the album, and rotate those. That way, all of I&W and all of FII get played over the course of every two nights, and there is still room in the set for other stuff.
But I can tell you, they aren't doing that.
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I would rather hear more from Octavarium mixed with I&W over FII. Maybe one song off FII and a mix of songs from their whole catalog including some Astonishing songs.
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I'd vote for a little FII suite, similar to the way DT paid homage to SFAM and Awake on the DT12 tour.
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I'd vote for a little FII suite, similar to the way DT paid homage to SFAM and Awake on the DT12 tour.
:tup
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I've always enjoyed FII. And I think if they did a 4 or 5 song suite on the I&W tour, it would go over well with the crowd.
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It's a good idea, but highly unlikely. Also, lose all hope on New Millenium being played, James said it's his least favorite song to play live, so they wouldn't do that.
What I think is they'll probably add a couple of FII songs, 3 max.
If that's the case, my money would be on:
- Burning My Soul
- Hell's Kitchen
- Lines in the Sand
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Well, if we could pick our own "ideal" scenario, mine would be:
Zero songs from FII.
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Well, if we could pick our own "ideal" scenario, mine would be:
Do a 6-song I&W suite, with two alternate set:
1. PMU, TTT, Metropolis, Another Day, WFS, LTL
2. PMU, TTT, UAGM, Surrounded, WFS, LTL
Then do 2 FII sets that are each half of the album, and rotate those. That way, all of I&W and all of FII get played over the course of every two nights, and there is still room in the set for other stuff.
Brain explodes trying to figure this out.
But I can tell you, they aren't doing that.
You could've saved me a half bottle of Advil if you just said that first! ;D
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bosk1=buzzkill1
:lol
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It's a good idea, but highly unlikely. Also, lose all hope on New Millenium being played, James said it's his least favorite song to play live, so they wouldn't do that.
What I think is they'll probably add a couple of FII songs, 3 max.
If that's the case, my money would be on:
- Burning My Soul
- Hell's Kitchen
- Lines in the Sand
That would be my vote. TOT is my #1 favorite DT song, but they just recently played that, and I have it on Blu Ray. Lines in the Sand is also in my top 10.
I wish they'd play Burning My Soul/Hell's Kitchen as one big song with HK in the middle like it allegedly used to be before the producer nixed it. I think it would have sounded perfect that way.
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When I am thinking about the upcoming I&W tour I get pumped as hell. It's not my favorite album but it's really good and all songs will be very fun to hear live!
A possible FII tour does nothing for me. Trail of Tears is a masterpiece but I already heard it so many times live. It's just to many bad songs to get to the good ones. I&W has a concept (the flow) to it, FII don't imo. Celebrating FII like the way they did with Scenes and Awake on last tour could work, but still my mind would just be thinking about all the other albums they should have represented instead. Only WDADU would have been worse. But that's just me.
I know people like FII but I don't understand why ;D
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They should play songs only from I&W, Awake and FII, during this next tour. With ACOS as the encore!
I haven't seen DT live since 2011, but i would totally go see that!
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They should play songs only from I&W, Awake and FII, during this next tour. With ACOS as the encore!
I'm all for them celebrating the anniversary of their breakthrough album, and would love to see it myself, but you don't want to start leaning too heavily on old material either. That idea would basically be a nostalgia act. Besides, they played plenty enough of Awake on the DT12 tour for that anniversary.
And between the current tour and the DT12 tour, their setlists have been quite narrow and overlooking a lot of material, so I think it would be wise to also focus on diversity to satisfy fans of all eras of the band, especially if one of the purposes of this tour is to bring in as many fans as possible after the less successful TA tour.
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Bearing in mind that 2017 is also the 15th anniversary of 6DOIT, and the 10th anniversary of Systematic Chaos. Will they commemorate those too?
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They could commemorate the 15th of SDOIT by PLAYING THE GLASS F'ING PRISON DANGIT! :lol
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They could commemorate the 15th of SDOIT by PLAYING THE GLASS F'ING PRISON DANGIT! :lol
I always wondered what TGFP stood for around here. ;D
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They could commemorate the 15th of SDOIT by PLAYING THE GLASS F'ING PRISON DANGIT! :lol
:metal
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They could commemorate the 15th of SDOIT by PLAYING THE GLASS F'ING PRISON DANGIT! :lol
:metal
:metal
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They could commemorate the 15th of SDOIT by PLAYING THE GLASS F'ING PRISON DANGIT! :lol
A big hell yeah.
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Unpopular opinion right here: I'd much rather see them tour for a 20th FII anniversary than for a 25th I&W anniversary.
I had a chance to see I&W in its enterity entirety so it's fine with me having FII anniversary. Not just because of that. FII is simply top 5.
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I'm with Rumby on this one. I would of preferred FII to be played live (2CD version and all as the band had originally intended to release it).
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I'm with Rumby on this one. I would of preferred FII to be played live (2CD version and all as the band had originally intended to release it).
And 3 fans would've shown up to the venue :-\
I really like FII, but, let's be honest, that album gets a lot of hate, so that wouldn't be a very succesful tour :sad:
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I'm with Rumby on this one. I would of preferred FII to be played live (2CD version and all as the band had originally intended to release it).
And 3 fans would've shown up to the venue :-\
I really like FII, but, let's be honest, that album gets a lot of hate, so that wouldn't be a very succesful tour :sad:
No, it wouldn't. But that's why a suite commemorating it makes a lot of sense. Throws a bone to those wanting to see it, acknowledges the history, but keeps the focus on other things...
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I had a chance to see I&W in its enterity entirety
Was it especially special?
;D
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1st set - I&W full
2nd set:
-You not me
-Burning my soul
-Hellīs kitchen
-Lines in the sand
-Take away my pain
-Just let me breathe
-Anna Lee
-A change of seasons
Encore:
-The glass prison
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Unpopular opinion right here: I'd much rather see them tour for a 20th FII anniversary than for a 25th I&W anniversary.
I agree 100%...(only because I've already seen ALL I & W songs performed live).
FII is actually one of my top 5 DT albums. Love it!
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Unpopular opinion right here: I'd much rather see them tour for a 20th FII anniversary than for a 25th I&W anniversary.
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I want to hear them playing Where are you now, Raise the Knife (again), Cover My Eyes, New Millennium and Trial of Tears in their next set.
Please make it happen!!!! :hefdaddy
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I love FII, but it's unlikely it'll get much attention. Which is a real shame. :hat
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I sometimes get the impression that FII's perceived reputation is far worse than it actually is. That is, it has been slowly creeping up in people's list over the years.
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I sometimes get the impression that FII's perceived reputation is far worse than it actually is. That is, it has been slowly creeping up in people's list over the years.
I really liked FII. I would have liked to see one or two more albums with DS, honestly.
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15 years ago, it was easy for FII to be near the bottom of the list, since its only competition was juggernauts like I&W, Awake and Scenes (and many ignored WDADU :lol), and it was easy to see it as the "weak link" amongst their four 90s studio albums, but as time has gone on and their list of albums has piled up, the love for it has gone up.
As for Sherinian, in retrospect, yeah, it would have been great to see another album or two with him, but I won't lie: in 1999, I was so nuts over both LTE albums that when word got out that Rudess was replacing Sherinian, I was as thrilled as anybody.
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I think what places FII so firmly in my top 5 these days is that I care far less for musical antics than I used to. FII shines through having very well-rounded songs, and only a few pristine wow-factor moments.
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15 years ago, it was easy for FII to be near the bottom of the list, since its only competition was juggernauts like I&W, Awake and Scenes (and many ignored WDADU :lol), and it was easy to see it as the "weak link" amongst their four 90s studio albums, but as time has gone on and their list of albums has piled up, the love for it has gone up.
Never thought of it in these terms... you're right!
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I've warmed to most of it over the years (Not Anna Lee though) because it's a bit different. I wasn't much into it at the time largely because of Derek, record company pressures and the perception that there was a problem the band (which turned out to be Mike's substance abuse problem.) That baggage is no longer an issue for me.
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It's funny how lots of people say they basically don't like FII because of all the label interference and production decisions they/Kevin Shirley made, but I was thinking about that the other day and realised that most, if not all, of these bad comments came, in the first place, from MP's complaints about him not being able to create the album he wanted (you can google it, these are basically his words).
Even JP stated on an interview a couple years ago (https://www.rockbook.hu/hirek/john-petrucci-interview-label-didnt-have-influence-falling-infinity-album) that they made the kind of album they wanted to create and that he's proud of it.
It all makes me wonder that, if Portnoy never talked trash about the whole process and the album in general, maybe people would appreciate the album much more.
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MP, for all his virtues and faults, always has been prone to "I will try to get you on my side of thinking, and if you still don't agree, you suck" thinking.
There obviously was a big power struggle between MP and the label, but it seems that that was much more MP's problem than anyone else's. He didn't like the end product, probably more out of principle than actual musical value, and so he railed against it at every opportunity.
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MP, for all his virtues and faults, always has been prone to "I will try to get you on my side of thinking, and if you still don't agree, you suck" thinking.
There obviously was a big power struggle between MP and the label, but it seems that that was much more MP's problem than anyone else's. He didn't like the end product, probably more out of principle than actual musical value, and so he railed against it at every opportunity.
Exactly my thoughts.
If he got the album he wanted, we would've never had SFAM and that would've been terrible :lol
Also, the extra tracks that didn't make it to the album, with the exception of Raise the Knife (still can't conceive why would anyone let that song get cut from the album) and Metropolis pt. 2, weren't really that good. I still listen to them ocasionally, but it's not like we missed THAT much anyway.
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I got into DT in 2000 and was well aware of the crap spoken about FII so when I finally picked it up I couldn't figure out why people hated it so much. You Not Me was their most mainstream sounding song up to that point but I thought it was pretty badass. Anna Lee Hollow Years and Take Away My Pain were absolutely beautiful and the one song people seem to agree is awesome is Trial of Tears. I never liked New Millenium or JLMB but I dug Burning My Soul. I see how it was different that the other albums but never got the hate.
MP, for all his virtues and faults, always has been prone to "I will try to get you on my side of thinking, and if you still don't agree, you suck" thinking.
There obviously was a big power struggle between MP and the label, but it seems that that was much more MP's problem than anyone else's. He didn't like the end product, probably more out of principle than actual musical value, and so he railed against it at every opportunity.
I think they go into depth in Lifting Shadows. I was surprised that there was such bad blood between Petrucci and Portnoy about JP writing with Desmond Child and whatnot. Thats where I got the idea that JP had a lot more say in the band than people thought. When people blamed MP for albums like SC, I kept thinking, "If JP wasn't digging it, he wouldn't do it."
Also in the book, MP talks about being outvoted about the direction of the album and band but one other bandmember sided with him. I don't think they said who exactly sided with him but my theory is JLB. We obviously know JP liked the more mainstream direction and opportunities that came with it and I'm assuming Derek did, too. I think it's a safe bet that JM sided with his high school friend JP. So that leaves JLB. I believe around that time him and MP were actually pretty good friends and I can see him going against the grain on this.
Thoughts?
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I got into DT in 2000 and was well aware of the crap spoken about FII so when I finally picked it up I couldn't figure out why people hated it so much. You Not Me was their most mainstream sounding song up to that point but I thought it was pretty badass. Anna Lee Hollow Years and Take Away My Pain were absolutely beautiful and the one song people seem to agree is awesome is Trial of Tears. I never liked New Millenium or JLMB but I dug Burning My Soul. I see how it was different that the other albums but never got the hate.
MP, for all his virtues and faults, always has been prone to "I will try to get you on my side of thinking, and if you still don't agree, you suck" thinking.
There obviously was a big power struggle between MP and the label, but it seems that that was much more MP's problem than anyone else's. He didn't like the end product, probably more out of principle than actual musical value, and so he railed against it at every opportunity.
I think they go into depth in Lifting Shadows. I was surprised that there was such bad blood between Petrucci and Portnoy about JP writing with Desmond Child and whatnot. Thats where I got the idea that JP had a lot more say in the band than people thought. When people blamed MP for albums like SC, I kept thinking, "If JP wasn't digging it, he wouldn't do it."
Also in the book, MP talks about being outvoted about the direction of the album and band but one other bandmember sided with him. I don't think they said who exactly sided with him but my theory is JLB. We obviously know JP liked the more mainstream direction and opportunities that came with it and I'm assuming Derek did, too. I think it's a safe bet that JM sided with his high school friend JP. So that leaves JLB. I believe around that time him and MP were actually pretty good friends and I can see him going against the grain on this.
Thoughts?
When I first got into DT, I also made the mistake of ignoring FII. Now I think it has great moments in it.
I think the problem with people blaming MP for the band's bad choices at some point was because he was the most vocal about him being in charge of this and that and that and also that, but there's always been the other members who carried almost all the songwriting of the band.
The main problem here was, I think, the amount of creative control he wanted to have in everything, so being FII one of the few albums they did with an external producer, I can see how he didn't like being told what he was supposed to do, as opposed to JP who was, at the time, much more open to external input and production. Also, to me JP was always the "leader" of the band, that's why they could manage it pretty easily when Mike left.
It may have been James at that point, but neither him or the rest of the band ever said a bad word about the proccess of making the album, so Mike might have twisted the facts just a little bit (I'm speculating 100%) to make it sound like he was not alone with that decision.
Anyway, in his last couple years in the band, you could see the issues between MP and James, so it was all in vain :lol
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JP wasn't/isn't the leader per se. He is the songwriter, which is, no matter what other band members fancy themselves as, the equivalent band leader.
Maybe what MP could never get over.
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I think they go into depth in Lifting Shadows. I was surprised that there was such bad blood between Petrucci and Portnoy about JP writing with Desmond Child and whatnot. Thats where I got the idea that JP had a lot more say in the band than people thought. When people blamed MP for albums like SC, I kept thinking, "If JP wasn't digging it, he wouldn't do it."
Also in the book, MP talks about being outvoted about the direction of the album and band but one other bandmember sided with him. I don't think they said who exactly sided with him but my theory is JLB. We obviously know JP liked the more mainstream direction and opportunities that came with it and I'm assuming Derek did, too. I think it's a safe bet that JM sided with his high school friend JP. So that leaves JLB. I believe around that time him and MP were actually pretty good friends and I can see him going against the grain on this.
Thoughts?
I agree with you about JP and the music on SC. Also, I have a hard time with JLB ever siding with MP, especially during the FII era.
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I sometimes get the impression that FII's perceived reputation is far worse than it actually is. That is, it has been slowly creeping up in people's list over the years.
I really liked FII. I would have liked to see one or two more albums with DS, honestly.
Agreed.
I have always loved FII. But as Kev said, it has grown even more for me in terms of appreciation as the years have gone by. Thus my wish for the record's anniversary to be spotlighted by them.
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I think they go into depth in Lifting Shadows. I was surprised that there was such bad blood between Petrucci and Portnoy about JP writing with Desmond Child and whatnot. Thats where I got the idea that JP had a lot more say in the band than people thought. When people blamed MP for albums like SC, I kept thinking, "If JP wasn't digging it, he wouldn't do it."
Also in the book, MP talks about being outvoted about the direction of the album and band but one other bandmember sided with him. I don't think they said who exactly sided with him but my theory is JLB. We obviously know JP liked the more mainstream direction and opportunities that came with it and I'm assuming Derek did, too. I think it's a safe bet that JM sided with his high school friend JP. So that leaves JLB. I believe around that time him and MP were actually pretty good friends and I can see him going against the grain on this.
Thoughts?
Yeah, and even during the recording of FII, Shirley said JP re-recorded his solo on Hollow Years at the last minute, though Shirley thought he shouldn't mess with it. I think even in the MP days JP had more control in the band than he's been given credit for.
I also think you're right about James siding with MP: JMX doesn't strike me as the kind of person who wants to rock the boat, and Derek had already played more mainstream-oriented music and was the newbie anyway. I just re-read the FII chapters in the book, and James is the only one who doesn't praise Shirley in there, and he's pretty outspoken about the negativity surrounding the tour, though not to the same extent as Mike. They even watched Pantera and Slayer together, and I vaguely remember an ADTOE-era interview where James was asked to name his least favorite album and he said FII.
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What I do remember is the ADTOE era interview where James said New Millenium is his least favorite song to sing live
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I also think you're right about James siding with MP: JMX doesn't strike me as the kind of person who wants to rock the boat, and Derek had already played more mainstream-oriented music and was the newbie anyway. I just re-read the FII chapters in the book, and James is the only one who doesn't praise Shirley in there, and he's pretty outspoken about the negativity surrounding the tour, though not to the same extent as Mike. They even watched Pantera and Slayer together, and I vaguely remember an ADTOE-era interview where James was asked to name his least favorite album and he said FII.
Good sleuthing there. It is interesting that no other member has ever spoken ill of that album.
Also, that was the era where their management team split up and they had to choose who to go with out of the two guys. Mike was "shot down again" by a vote of 3-2. So from everything you dug up from Lifting Shadows goes along with that is a pretty good indicator that it was probably James that sided with Mike.
Also TAC, I can't remember where but I swear I read that Mike and James were actually best friends for a while and I'm pretty sure it was during that era. I may need to reread the section where he was asked to shape up vocally because I think Mike may have made a comment about them being close at one point.
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I'll have to reread those sections too. I definitely don't remember that.
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Looking back, FII came out during a bad period of my life. Maybe that shades my opinion. I remember listening to it quite a bit, but it didn't resonate with me like I&W and Awake. I knew nothing about the band outside of album liner notes (didn't even know WDaDU existed) so the only thing that meant anything to me was a new keyboardist (that I'd never heard of) and a little bit more diverse lyric writing credits. I didn't know the circumstances of KM's departure, the keyboardist auditions, the band conflicts, or any of that till 2004-ish. By that time, with the release of SFaM, Live Scenes, SDoIT, ToT, and L@B, I accepted FII for how I deep down felt about it in 1997: a respectable effort that missed its mark, and failed to show how good the band could really be.
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It's funny how lots of people say they basically don't like FII because of all the label interference and production decisions they/Kevin Shirley made, but I was thinking about that the other day and realised that most, if not all, of these bad comments came, in the first place, from MP's complaints about him not being able to create the album he wanted (you can google it, these are basically his words).
Even JP stated on an interview a couple years ago (https://www.rockbook.hu/hirek/john-petrucci-interview-label-didnt-have-influence-falling-infinity-album) that they made the kind of album they wanted to create and that he's proud of it.
It all makes me wonder that, if Portnoy never talked trash about the whole process and the album in general, maybe people would appreciate the album much more.
I've actually had pretty much exactly this sentiment for a while. At the same time, it was the first album with a few weak-link songs on it--which is normal for most bands, but it wasn't for DT, who had just released I&W and Awake.
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It's funny how lots of people say they basically don't like FII because of all the label interference and production decisions they/Kevin Shirley made, but I was thinking about that the other day and realised that most, if not all, of these bad comments came, in the first place, from MP's complaints about him not being able to create the album he wanted (you can google it, these are basically his words).
Even JP stated on an interview a couple years ago (https://www.rockbook.hu/hirek/john-petrucci-interview-label-didnt-have-influence-falling-infinity-album) that they made the kind of album they wanted to create and that he's proud of it.
It all makes me wonder that, if Portnoy never talked trash about the whole process and the album in general, maybe people would appreciate the album much more.
I've actually had pretty much exactly this sentiment for a while. At the same time, it was the first album with a few weak-link songs on it--which is normal for most bands, but it wasn't for DT, who had just released I&W and Awake.
And even the weak link songs can be enjoyable for some people. I think the main reason for the general conception that FII was bad or comertial or whatever is the fact that Portnoy spoke so bad and so loudly about it, and we all know how loud the guy can be with his opinions sometimes :lol
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It's funny how lots of people say they basically don't like FII because of all the label interference and production decisions they/Kevin Shirley made, but I was thinking about that the other day and realised that most, if not all, of these bad comments came, in the first place, from MP's complaints about him not being able to create the album he wanted (you can google it, these are basically his words).
Even JP stated on an interview a couple years ago (https://www.rockbook.hu/hirek/john-petrucci-interview-label-didnt-have-influence-falling-infinity-album) that they made the kind of album they wanted to create and that he's proud of it.
It all makes me wonder that, if Portnoy never talked trash about the whole process and the album in general, maybe people would appreciate the album much more.
I've actually had pretty much exactly this sentiment for a while. At the same time, it was the first album with a few weak-link songs on it--which is normal for most bands, but it wasn't for DT, who had just released I&W and Awake.
And even the weak link songs can be enjoyable for some people. I think the main reason for the general conception that FII was bad or comertial or whatever is the fact that Portnoy spoke so bad and so loudly about it, and we all know how loud the guy can be with his opinions sometimes :lol
Most people are very capable of making up their own minds, nothing to do with Portnoy. ;) It seems most people here who heard the album on release had negative reactions to the album based on the more commercial sound, and expectations set by coming off IaW and Awake, long before knowing what MP thought of the album.
Personally those attributes are what I love about the album, and over time I think the general reception to the album has improved as people have gotten over their expectations. Myself included! I hated it at first, now it's one of my top DT albums.
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I don't really see how it has all that more of a commercial sound than I&W or Awake, though. You could argue that I&W was even more commercial with PMU and AD alone.
The only song on FII that strikes me as commercial is YNM. But that was released a year after their Christmas CD with the U2 Red Hill Mining Town cover on it, so we know they were influenced by some more commercial stuff at that time anyway. The rest of the album is pretty much classic DT with maybe one or two more ballads than normal. PS and BMS aren't all that much different from CIAW and Lie. LOTS and TOT are not all that much different from TTT or Scarred. Same with NM and 6:00. JLMB is crap, but it's not all that commercial.
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It's funny how lots of people say they basically don't like FII because of all the label interference and production decisions they/Kevin Shirley made, but I was thinking about that the other day and realised that most, if not all, of these bad comments came, in the first place, from MP's complaints about him not being able to create the album he wanted (you can google it, these are basically his words).
Even JP stated on an interview a couple years ago (https://www.rockbook.hu/hirek/john-petrucci-interview-label-didnt-have-influence-falling-infinity-album) that they made the kind of album they wanted to create and that he's proud of it.
It all makes me wonder that, if Portnoy never talked trash about the whole process and the album in general, maybe people would appreciate the album much more.
I've actually had pretty much exactly this sentiment for a while. At the same time, it was the first album with a few weak-link songs on it--which is normal for most bands, but it wasn't for DT, who had just released I&W and Awake.
And even the weak link songs can be enjoyable for some people. I think the main reason for the general conception that FII was bad or comertial or whatever is the fact that Portnoy spoke so bad and so loudly about it, and we all know how loud the guy can be with his opinions sometimes :lol
Most people are very capable of making up their own minds, nothing to do with Portnoy. ;) It seems most people here who heard the album on release had negative reactions to the album based on the more commercial sound, and expectations set by coming off IaW and Awake, long before knowing what MP thought of the album.
Personally those attributes are what I love about the album, and over time I think the general reception to the album has improved as people have gotten over their expectations. Myself included! I hated it at first, now it's one of my top DT albums.
I always find it in my lower five. We always disagree about what songs should have wound up on there, but I understand your confusion. ;) It would have been much better if it included The Way It Used To Be (instead of You Not Me), the original version of Take Away My Pain, and Speak To Me (instead of Anna Lee).
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Most people are very capable of making up their own minds, nothing to do with Portnoy. ;) It seems most people here who heard the album on release had negative reactions to the album based on the more commercial sound, and expectations set by coming off IaW and Awake, long before knowing what MP thought of the album.
Personally those attributes are what I love about the album, and over time I think the general reception to the album has improved as people have gotten over their expectations. Myself included! I hated it at first, now it's one of my top DT albums.
I am very capable of making up my own mind about music, I like what I like, and I don't like what I don't like, but as a fan that discovered the band during the ToT era I steered clear of FII for a while because of MP's comments about it. Honestly, I figured this band had all this other music to check out, so why hurry to listen to the one they "sold out" on. When I did finally listen to it, I was pleasantly surprised, now it rests somewhere in the middle of my DT album rankings.
So MP's very public opinion of the record didn't change my opinion of it, but it did discourage me from checking it out for a while when I first became a fan.
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Most people are very capable of making up their own minds, nothing to do with Portnoy. ;) It seems most people here who heard the album on release had negative reactions to the album based on the more commercial sound, and expectations set by coming off IaW and Awake, long before knowing what MP thought of the album.
Personally those attributes are what I love about the album, and over time I think the general reception to the album has improved as people have gotten over their expectations. Myself included! I hated it at first, now it's one of my top DT albums.
I am very capable of making up my own mind about music, I like what I like, and I don't like what I don't like, but as a fan that discovered the band during the ToT era I steered clear of FII for a while because of MP's comments about it. Honestly, I figured this band had all this other music to check out, so why hurry to listen to the one they "sold out" on. When I did finally listen to it, I was pleasantly surprised, now it rests somewhere in the middle of my DT album rankings.
So MP's very public opinion of the record didn't change my opinion of it, but it did discourage me from checking it out for a while when I first became a fan.
This.
Also, I discovered DT around late 2009 or very early 2010, just after they released BC&SL. A friend of mine, and also a bassist, made me listen to SFAM and and watch the Metropolis 2000 DVD. I became a fan inmediately. You can imagine, after that, trying to figure out which albums I should listen after SFAM, so I went to their latest (Black Clouds) and also started reading which ones were their best ranked albums. This, of course, didn't make me too excited about FII, because of all the bad comments about it and, also, I read a lot on how Jordan and Kevin were great and Derek not so much, so that did affect my perception on the album even before listening to it.
Now, I really like it, even though it's not that high on my list either.
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As far as perception of the album as a whole, my initial perception of the album was fairly low, and that had nothing to do with Portnoy's comments. As I have said, I became a fan in '92 with Images & Words. But my fandom was fairly casual. I loved that album. But snippets and songs that I heard from Awake, ACOS, and FII didn't grab me, so I did not buy those albums until much later. I was in the L.A. area a bit after FII came out, and I think it was Burning My Soul that I heard on the radio. The overall sound of the song was okay, but the lyrics were a bit offputting. So given that I wasn't a big fan outside of Images and Words anyway, I did not initially feel any compulsion to dig deeper into this album.
It was not until late 1999 when I discovered SFAM and bought it on sight that I truly became a big DT fan. That was the point where I then went back and began buying up their back catalog. I got Awake and FII together (I think I ordered them from Amazon). I immediately liked Awake and immediately disliked FII. Part of it was the production and overall sound of the album, which just seemed a bit off to me, part of it was that I didn't like a few of the songs (You Not Me, Burning My Soul, Hollow Years, etc.), and part of it was the number of ballads/slower songs. So, I initially had a fairly low impression of the album just from what I heard. And it wasn't until several years later that I became aware of the backstory and that Portnoy did not like the album very much.
As I became familiar with the songs over time, I grew to really love the album. I can really appreciate most of the songs now. But that said, it still ranks more toward the bottom of the DT discography. That isn't because it isn't good. It is just because most of the other albums are better.
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As I became familiar with the songs over time, I grew to really love the album. I can really appreciate most of the songs now. But that said, it still ranks more toward the bottom of the DT discography. That isn't because it isn't good. It is just because most of the other albums are better.
I feel the same way about many albums. Actually, I love all 13 albums and think every one of them has a unique and specia element to add to the band as a whole. Even with WDAU, which is the last one on my list, I can sit and listen to it and really like it, it's just, as you say, I like the others more :)
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The FII tour was my first DT show even though I've been a fan since I&W. Great album. Great show. FII ranks in my top 5 at #5.
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Some of the biggest criticisms of FII and TA were that there were too many ballads. The difference for me, is TA ballads are so much better than the FII ballads. I really don't like any of them personally besides Anna Lee which is the one not liked by most others. However, the proggiest songs Trial of Tears and Lines in the Sand really save the album for me. Top DT tracks there.
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I was a huge DT fan when FII came out, and after what seemed like a bit of a wait, FII was jarring, and not in a positive way. I literally thought DT had jumped the shark already. It became a 3 song album for me, Peruvian Skies, Trial Of Tears, and Lines In The Sand. And it remains so to this day. Lines is a Top 10 DT Track for me. I really wish Raise The Knife made it, but in general, the songs that ended up getting cut really aren't much better. Speak To Me is cool enough if I'm in the right mood, and Cover My Eyes is fun and all, but that era is pretty weak. It's the gawky preteen years of the band.
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Agree on the songs that got cut. With the exception of Raise the Knife, the song's aren't too good imo.
I find the ballads ok on FII, but they're just ok. Still, the album has great prog moments and, to me, the BMS/HK/LITS flow is really cool, I love how one song goes into the other and into the other perfectly. TOT is amazing as well, and the solo section is one of the best they've ever had, imo. Derek's solo on that track is a highlight for his whole carreer :o
I think the tour was one of their worst, though. No, I didn't go to any of them (I was probably 3 years old at the time), but from the setlists I've seen, they played a lot of covers and abriged versions of some of their best songs at the time (ACOS, Metropolis, Learning to Live), which I've never been a fan of either. If you start the song, you better finish it! :lol
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If they had just made the double album and included ACOS, people would probably be ranking it right up there with the other of the first five! :D
Stupid producers.
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If they had just made the double album and included ACOS, people would probably be ranking it right up there with the other of the first five! :D
But half of it, instead of two thirds would have been filler. ACOS was already out.
I could tell on first listen that something was amiss.
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I actually think FII should've been shorter, not longer. I listened to that demo set once and it was exhausting, even the album as it is feels more bloated than the average DT album (isn't it still one of their longest?)
Cut just three songs (I vote for YNM, JLMB, and BMS) and the album flows much better and there's already a big jump in quality.
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The difference for me, is TA ballads are so much better than the FII ballads.
Wow, couldn't possibly disagree more with that. TAMP is one of the best "ballads" they've ever done. TA's ballads for the most part are very platitudinous.
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ACOS was already out.
Whoops...I meant Metropolis Pt. II. Shows how tired I am. :-[
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Cut just three songs (I vote for YNM, JLMB, and BMS) and the album flows much better and there's already a big jump in quality.
Totally.
Although JLMB is awesome live, especially the '05 version.
I also want to say that the Budokan version of Hollow Years is amazing. It takes IMO a Bottom 20 DT track and turns it into a Top 20 track. I just feel that the studio version is fairly lifeless and doesn't really go anywhere.
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Cut just three songs (I vote for YNM, JLMB HY, and BMS HK) and the album flows much better and there's already a big jump in quality.
Fixed.
And, yeah, other than TAMP, I agree that the ballads on The Astonishing are SO much better than those on FII.
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If they had just made the double album and included ACOS, people would probably be ranking it right up there with the other of the first five! :D
Stupid producers.
I think you're getting confused with Metropolis 2, which was something that MP wanted to include. This was before M2 blew up to what it is now.
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The difference for me, is TA ballads are so much better than the FII ballads.
Wow, couldn't possibly disagree more with that. TAMP is one of the best "ballads" they've ever done. TA's ballads for the most part are very platitudinous.
I think all of the FII ballads are among their best (not TAMP so much, although I've warmed to it over time). TA does have Act of Faythe, which is one of their best ballads in quite a while, but I'd still easily give the edge to FII overall. TA has too many filler ballads.
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Cut just three songs (I vote for YNM, JLMB, and BMS) and the album flows much better and there's already a big jump in quality.
Totally.
Although JLMB is awesome live, especially the '05 version.
JLMB is one of the few DT tracks that seems like it was made with the purpose of being played live. The sort of song they would never write today.
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I also want to say that the Budokan version of Hollow Years is amazing. It takes IMO a Bottom 20 DT track and turns it into a Top 20 track. I just feel that the studio version is fairly lifeless and doesn't really go anywhere.
Preach it! The LaB version of Hollow Years is literally what got me into DT.
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Appreciation is often dependent on what we associate with any album (referring to CoolChris for this particular thread). I came on board in 2003, and I still didn't have FII when I saw the 'Chaos' tour (my 3rd DT concert). And, at first, silly me thought they were playing 'Xanadu' as an encore.....(seeing MP playing from in front of his kit was at the beginning was memorable)
I was, of course, enlightened a couple of weeks later after purchasing the album. A great offset to the dark SC whilst realizing the band was still 'growing'.
As to 'my' version: Burning My Soul/Peruvian Skies/Hollow Years/Hell's Kitchen/Lines In The Sand/Take Away My Pain/Just Let Me Breathe/Trial of Tears.
The chorus for 'New Millenium' ruins it for me, baby. As to 'Hollow Years'....I lived it.
Moving on....as to 'what to play' on their next tour from FII: if they were to do one track, the demo version of 'Burning My Soul/Hell's Kitchen' would be a really nice touch. Never on an official release, hasn't been performed this century, so it would be something 'new'.
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They did play thr demo version of BMS before FII was released and then, again, on the SDOIT tour. There's footage on youtube ;D
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I also want to say that the Budokan version of Hollow Years is amazing. It takes IMO a Bottom 20 DT track and turns it into a Top 20 track. I just feel that the studio version is fairly lifeless and doesn't really go anywhere.
Preach it! The LaB version of Hollow Years is literally what got me into DT.
Yea, that version is significantly better than the album version.
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They did play thr demo version of BMS before FII was released and then, again, on the SDOIT tour. There's footage on youtube ;D
Can you help me with that? I had found 'Hell's Kitchen/Burning My Soul' from 2002.....but not the way it was played with in the demo and 90s. Thanks in advance (and sorry for the error).
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I also want to say that the Budokan version of Hollow Years is amazing. It takes IMO a Bottom 20 DT track and turns it into a Top 20 track. I just feel that the studio version is fairly lifeless and doesn't really go anywhere.
Preach it! The LaB version of Hollow Years is literally what got me into DT.
I think what makes the Budokan version better is the amazing and epic JP solo, versus the original, that only has the melody played on an acoustic guitar.
They did play thr demo version of BMS before FII was released and then, again, on the SDOIT tour. There's footage on youtube ;D
Can you help me with that? I had found 'Hell's Kitchen/Burning My Soul' from 2002.....but not the way it was played with in the demo and 90s. Thanks in advance (and sorry for the error).
The pre-FII version is featured on the official bootleg from Ytsejam Records: Old bridge, New Jersey 1996. They played a few or their new songs (BMS, LITS, PS) :)
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I also want to say that the Budokan version of Hollow Years is amazing. It takes IMO a Bottom 20 DT track and turns it into a Top 20 track. I just feel that the studio version is fairly lifeless and doesn't really go anywhere.
Preach it! The LaB version of Hollow Years is literally what got me into DT.
I think what makes the Budokan version better is the amazing and epic JP solo, versus the original, that only has the melody played on an acoustic guitar.
Yeah the solo is the obvious difference, the whole arrangement of that song they did throughout the ToT tour was great they embellished it in just the right places.
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I also want to say that the Budokan version of Hollow Years is amazing. It takes IMO a Bottom 20 DT track and turns it into a Top 20 track. I just feel that the studio version is fairly lifeless and doesn't really go anywhere.
Preach it! The LaB version of Hollow Years is literally what got me into DT.
I think what makes the Budokan version better is the amazing and epic JP solo, versus the original, that only has the melody played on an acoustic guitar.
Yeah the solo is the obvious difference, the whole arrangement of that song they did throughout the ToT tour was great they embellished it in just the right places.
I believe they brought this arrangement of HY back during the BC&SL tour as well.
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Unpopular opinion right here: I'd much rather see them tour for a 20th FII anniversary than for a 25th I&W anniversary.
Agreed that yours is an unpopular opinion. I like FII, but it's not I&W!
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I believe they brought this arrangement of HY back during the BC&SL tour as well.
I believe you are correct sir!
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Oh, if we're going the expanded route, yes, "Speak to Me" would be ideal. Love that song.
Unpopular opinion right here: I'd much rather see them tour for a 20th FII anniversary than for a 25th I&W anniversary.
Not sure I'd go totally there (I think a tour in support of the band's most likely least popular record isn't feasible), but I would take it if they ever did do it! I just felt an I&W tour could kill two birds with one stone, and recognize FII too. :)
I'd have to check with the current album ranking thread, but I would guess that The Astonishing would be least popular. If you include A Change of Seasons, I rank FII 8th and Astonishing 14th by far.
I don't think JP would play You Not Me, but I'd love to see Burning my Soul, Peruvian Skies, Trial of Tears and Lines in the Sand again
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Oh, if we're going the expanded route, yes, "Speak to Me" would be ideal. Love that song.
Unpopular opinion right here: I'd much rather see them tour for a 20th FII anniversary than for a 25th I&W anniversary.
Not sure I'd go totally there (I think a tour in support of the band's most likely least popular record isn't feasible), but I would take it if they ever did do it! I just felt an I&W tour could kill two birds with one stone, and recognize FII too. :)
I'd have to check with the current album ranking thread, but I would guess that The Astonishing would be least popular. If you include A Change of Seasons, I rank FII 8th and Astonishing 14th by far.
I don't think JP would play You Not Me, but I'd love to see Burning my Soul, Peruvian Skies, Trial of Tears and Lines in the Sand again
I would have guessed WDaDU, but FII, TA, and SC all seem to be lowly ranked.
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I also want to say that the Budokan version of Hollow Years is amazing. It takes IMO a Bottom 20 DT track and turns it into a Top 20 track. I just feel that the studio version is fairly lifeless and doesn't really go anywhere.
Preach it! The LaB version of Hollow Years is literally what got me into DT.
I think what makes the Budokan version better is the amazing and epic JP solo, versus the original, that only has the melody played on an acoustic guitar.
Yeah the solo is the obvious difference, the whole arrangement of that song they did throughout the ToT tour was great they embellished it in just the right places.
I believe they brought this arrangement of HY back during the BC&SL tour as well.
They brought it back with the epic solo and outro, but the '09 version also included the demo pre-chorus that had been cut on the FII version.
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Had they included Raise The Knife, the album would've been that much better.
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Damn, I forgot about that one.
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Had they included Raise The Knife, the album would've been that much better.
No doubt!
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Raise the Knife is the only non album track that I feel would have really lifted FII a bit more. Not that the other non album tracks were bad, I enjoy them, but I don't feel like any of the others would have made FII a better album.
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Had they included Raise The Knife, the album would've been that much better.
I dunno. I'm kinda ambivalent on that. Raise the knife just sorta meanders for me. There's no real song on FII that I truly dislike, though Anna Lee is no classic.
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AL is no classic, but it's a DT classic. A lot of DT fans like that song.
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AL is no classic, but it's a DT classic. A lot of DT fans like that song.
There's not many of us, but I love that song.
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I'll bet an audience would go nuts if DT started playing AL at a show just out of the clear blue.
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I'll bet an audience would go nuts if DT started playing AL at a show just out of the clear blue.
Like instead of Begin Again they just went into Anna Lee :lol I would love to see that live spontaneity from the band.
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I, for one, would LOVE to see Anna Lee performed live again. Definitely one of my favorite parts of 5YIAL. JP playing slide on that Talman is sweet.
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Would love to see FII being performed on its entirety. My first DT album was Images but my 2nd was FII, while my 3rd was Once in a Livetime. Those were the album that the store in Mexico where I used to live carried in stock. I was never aware of Awake until a few years later. Anyways, it was quite a contrast between Images and FII. Images changed my life but the songs on FII sounded way better and more crafted. The highlight for me in this album are the keyboards and the guitar solos and JLB's voice. The drum sound that MP had on FII remains an all time favorite ever. To this date, FII remains in my top 4 DT albums (SFAM, Awake, Images, and FII).
I wish the FII demos would have been released with the production of FII. The songs that got cut off the main album are great.
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DoubleAgent: " . . . . .AL is no classic, but it's a DT classic. . . . . "
I guess you and I define the word "classic" differently. If we had everyone on here rank every DT album song from 1 to whatever, Anna Lee would surely end up in the bottom 10% of most lists.
Yes, some people would go nuts - if only because it's rarely played.
Thankfully DT's catalog is so deep that even the bottom 10% are mostly great songs! But it's not a DT classic.
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Anna Lee showcases a side of the band that I personally enjoy -- the more simplistic side. I love the song, although it is probably my fourth favorite on FII, after Trial of Tears, Lines in the Sand, and Hell's Kitchen. I felt the basic piano, and then the more relaxed instrumentation gave the song a soulful feeling that really resonated.
And agreed with people who say if the song is played, people would go nuts. Unfortunately, I think Tony is probably correct, that it would be more because it is rarely played, as opposed to people actually loving the song. But count me among the latter. There's something refreshing about that song to me. And I feel it is highly underrated by the fanbase.
My only gripe with that tune (which puts Hell's Kitchen above it in my ranking) is about the 3:10 mark, the bridge of the song, when James elects to go higher pitch. I know they likely did it for some dynamics. But I think it really takes away from the tune. I think that could have been re-thought. But it doesn't kill it for me. I just would have went somewhere else if I was singing it (and I usually try different things when I sing it).
But very underappreciated cut. Most of the songs like it in DT's catalog are. But I am glad they still attempt stuff like that.
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Anybody listening makes a great point. Anna Lee stands out in that it is a more simplistic song. One of my Favorite DT songs is "I walk beside you." Straight forward rock / pop song but clearly done by excellent musicians. I always thought it could have been their "Owner of a Lonely Heart"
That's not to say I don't love their proggy stuff, but I am not a prog guy in general. I really only go for DT and Rush in terms of prog.
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I should also point out that 2017 is the 1st anniversary of The Astonishing. They should probably play it in full.
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I should also point out that 2017 is the 1st anniversary of The Astonishing. They should probably play it in full.
I'd reply with something slick, but I don't want to get warned again for saying something rude about TA.
How about just - I think we've had enough of that. I'd bet they have also
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DoubleAgent: " . . . . .AL is no classic, but it's a DT classic. . . . . "
I guess you and I define the word "classic" differently. If we had everyone on here rank every DT album song from 1 to whatever, Anna Lee would surely end up in the bottom 10% of most lists.
Yes, some people would go nuts - if only because it's rarely played.
Thankfully DT's catalog is so deep that even the bottom 10% are mostly great songs! But it's not a DT classic.
Yeah, we do define classics differently. So be it.
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Even though FII is considered to be the "mainstream" album, I think their most mainstream song isn't Anna Lee or the others mentioned here, it's I Walk Beside You. I just can't find any interesting on it, besides the fact that it's DT playing it and a few musical elements like Portnoy's second verse drum part and JP's intro (that sound that plays with along the clock at the beginning).
Anyone share this opinion? (without going too far from the topic of this thread)
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I personally love all of DT's "pop" songs, and I Walk Beside You is one of my very favorites of that kind. I actually wouldn't mind if they'd play it in the upcoming tour!
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The performance of I Walk Beside You on Score sold me on the song. I definitely appreciate the album version more now.
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Even though FII is considered to be the "mainstream" album, I think their most mainstream song isn't Anna Lee or the others mentioned here, it's I Walk Beside You. I just can't find any interesting on it, besides the fact that it's DT playing it and a few musical elements like Portnoy's second verse drum part and JP's intro (that sound that plays with along the clock at the beginning).
Anyone share this opinion? (without going too far from the topic of this thread)
I don't find Anna Lee to be mainstream -- just simpler. To me, there's a difference. I think I Walk Beside You is very radio friendly and mainstream for sure. But they have a bunch of those mainstream-pointed tunes. Anna Lee though...not really mainstream to my ears.
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Anna Lee is not even close to my favorite DT songs, but I really like the guitar solo section, where JP plays a great melody. It was probably written by Derek, since he revisited that melody on one of his solo songs "Been Here Before"
- Derek's solo album version (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-qZ6YsrOh8)
- PSMS version (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gjuDRco0AI)
On IWBY, the song is good, it just doesn't sound at all like DT, it sounds like a U2 or Coldplay song with JLB singing on it an better instrumentation. Not that it is bad, I just don't find it too interesting. I don't like Never Enough either, and that's one of the reasons I rank 8V so low on my list, it just lacks something :-\ (again, my opinion, please don't take it serious, guys :biggrin:)
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Even though FII is considered to be the "mainstream" album, I think their most mainstream song isn't Anna Lee or the others mentioned here, it's I Walk Beside You. I just can't find any interesting on it, besides the fact that it's DT playing it and a few musical elements like Portnoy's second verse drum part and JP's intro (that sound that plays with along the clock at the beginning).
Anyone share this opinion? (without going too far from the topic of this thread)
Are you saying you don't care for the song BECAUSE it's too pop?
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Even though FII is considered to be the "mainstream" album, I think their most mainstream song isn't Anna Lee or the others mentioned here, it's I Walk Beside You. I just can't find any interesting on it, besides the fact that it's DT playing it and a few musical elements like Portnoy's second verse drum part and JP's intro (that sound that plays with along the clock at the beginning).
Anyone share this opinion? (without going too far from the topic of this thread)
Are you saying you don't care for the song BECAUSE it's too pop?
Not saying that, I just don't find it too interesting, even the modulation at the end feels weird and it's oddly placed on the album. The song is well written and performed, I just don't picture DT sounding like U2.
This is coming from a fan who LOVES The Astonishing, so I have no problem listening to songs that arent TDOE :lol
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I also think you're right about James siding with MP: JMX doesn't strike me as the kind of person who wants to rock the boat, and Derek had already played more mainstream-oriented music and was the newbie anyway. I just re-read the FII chapters in the book, and James is the only one who doesn't praise Shirley in there, and he's pretty outspoken about the negativity surrounding the tour, though not to the same extent as Mike. They even watched Pantera and Slayer together, and I vaguely remember an ADTOE-era interview where James was asked to name his least favorite album and he said FII.
Good sleuthing there. It is interesting that no other member has ever spoken ill of that album.
Also, that was the era where their management team split up and they had to choose who to go with out of the two guys. Mike was "shot down again" by a vote of 3-2. So from everything you dug up from Lifting Shadows goes along with that is a pretty good indicator that it was probably James that sided with Mike.
Also TAC, I can't remember where but I swear I read that Mike and James were actually best friends for a while and I'm pretty sure it was during that era. I may need to reread the section where he was asked to shape up vocally because I think Mike may have made a comment about them being close at one point.
Just glanced at the chapter about when they considered replacing James and James said that he and Mike were very close after he first joined the band in 92. So confirmation they were close but not sure about where they stood during the making of FII
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I also think you're right about James siding with MP: JMX doesn't strike me as the kind of person who wants to rock the boat, and Derek had already played more mainstream-oriented music and was the newbie anyway. I just re-read the FII chapters in the book, and James is the only one who doesn't praise Shirley in there, and he's pretty outspoken about the negativity surrounding the tour, though not to the same extent as Mike. They even watched Pantera and Slayer together, and I vaguely remember an ADTOE-era interview where James was asked to name his least favorite album and he said FII.
Good sleuthing there. It is interesting that no other member has ever spoken ill of that album.
Also, that was the era where their management team split up and they had to choose who to go with out of the two guys. Mike was "shot down again" by a vote of 3-2. So from everything you dug up from Lifting Shadows goes along with that is a pretty good indicator that it was probably James that sided with Mike.
Also TAC, I can't remember where but I swear I read that Mike and James were actually best friends for a while and I'm pretty sure it was during that era. I may need to reread the section where he was asked to shape up vocally because I think Mike may have made a comment about them being close at one point.
Just glanced at the chapter about when they considered replacing James and James said that he and Mike were very close after he first joined the band in 92. So confirmation they were close but not sure about where they stood during the making of FII
I haven't read the LS book, could you please tell me when they considered to replace James? From what I've heard, MP wanted to kick James out of the band around the BC&SL tour, when they were probably having more issues with each other. I think that, if Mike stayed, he would've eventually tried to replace James and go to an even heavier direction
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I didn't read the book but I thought the general consensus was that James was given a kinda of ultimatum after the Six Degrees tour, he improved and mantained his role in the band. I never heard even rumors of him being at risk around Black Clouds.
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I didn't read the book but I thought the general consensus was that James was given a kinda of ultimatum after the Six Degrees tour, he improved and mantained his role in the band. I never heard even rumors of him being at risk around Black Clouds.
Yup. Nothing like that occurred around BC&SL although sometime around that timeframe or maybe a few years earlier Mike had said online that they would not have picked James if they needed a new vocalist at that time. James was quiet about it publicly but I think its pretty clear he was hurt/pissed off by it.
For a little more detail, after the SDOIT tour Mike was not happy with James and wanted to replace him. It appears in the book that the other members and management were not as keen to replace him. Mike had some strong statements, John Myung said nothing, Jordan said he was too new to take an opinion, and John Petrucci had some very tempered statements about James. In other words, I got the sense that JP had some concerns about James but never really thought seriously about replacing him. In the book he pretty much said that James didn't seem happy in the band and was wondering if he was still into it.
Mike on the other hand said he was unhappy with James's stage presence, his interaction with the audience, his weight, his vocal performance (he had trouble consistently hitting the high notes around that period but wasn't that bad overall), and I really got the notion that Mike was ready to replace him but the other guys were not. So I think ultimatum is a strong word but they did tell him they want to see an improvement in his performance. James took it to heart and admitted that he hadn't been a good place, was depressed from his vocal chord accident in the 90s, and was ready to improve. He started taking lessons again, started working out, stopped drinking on tour (he was never a heavy drinker anyway but alcohol isn't good for the voice), stopped smoking cigars ( I was shocked when I read that he smoked), and you can see a big improvement between the 2002 tours and the 2004 tours.
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John Myung said nothing
:o
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John Myung said nothing
:o
:lol
Yeah, yeah, yeah...but John really does say some interesting stuff in the book. I just thought it was interesting there was no quote from him about that ordeal. Did he refuse to talk about it? I'm sure he was asked. Did he not say anything quote worthy?
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I didn't read the book but I thought the general consensus was that James was given a kinda of ultimatum after the Six Degrees tour, he improved and mantained his role in the band. I never heard even rumors of him being at risk around Black Clouds.
Yup. Nothing like that occurred around BC&SL although sometime around that timeframe or maybe a few years earlier Mike had said online that they would not have picked James if they needed a new vocalist at that time. James was quiet about it publicly but I think its pretty clear he was hurt/pissed off by it.
For a little more detail, after the SDOIT tour Mike was not happy with James and wanted to replace him. It appears in the book that the other members and management were not as keen to replace him. Mike had some strong statements, John Myung said nothing, Jordan said he was too new to take an opinion, and John Petrucci had some very tempered statements about James. In other words, I got the sense that JP had some concerns about James but never really thought seriously about replacing him. In the book he pretty much said that James didn't seem happy in the band and was wondering if he was still into it.
Mike on the other hand said he was unhappy with James's stage presence, his interaction with the audience, his weight, his vocal performance (he had trouble consistently hitting the high notes around that period but wasn't that bad overall), and I really got the notion that Mike was ready to replace him but the other guys were not. So I think ultimatum is a strong word but they did tell him they want to see an improvement in his performance. James took it to heart and admitted that he hadn't been a good place, was depressed from his vocal chord accident in the 90s, and was ready to improve. He started taking lessons again, started working out, stopped drinking on tour (he was never a heavy drinker anyway but alcohol isn't good for the voice), stopped smoking cigars ( I was shocked when I read that he smoked), and you can see a big improvement between the 2002 tours and the 2004 tours.
Wow, I didn't know all that. It makes me wonder who they would've chosen if they fired James. That's another example on MP not having as much control on things as he makes it sound every time he talks about it.
About the Black Clouds era, I was talking about the same thing you mentioned, MP saying they wouldn't have chosen James at that point, he probably felt too bad about it and started working on another solo album (Static Impulse). I actually remember an interview with James (after Portnoy left) where he said he felt frustrated his input wasn't being appreciated or his ideas used, so he started working on that album to get some of his musical ideas out. It actually makes sense if you see that he didn't get to write any lyrics on BC&SL, and on the making of SC documental, he only appears a few times to be yelled at or something :-\
That has clearly changed nowadays. He was the initial contact with Rich Chycki, for example.
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I didn't read the book but I thought the general consensus was that James was given a kinda of ultimatum after the Six Degrees tour, he improved and mantained his role in the band. I never heard even rumors of him being at risk around Black Clouds.
Yup. Nothing like that occurred around BC&SL although sometime around that timeframe or maybe a few years earlier Mike had said online that they would not have picked James if they needed a new vocalist at that time. James was quiet about it publicly but I think its pretty clear he was hurt/pissed off by it.
For a little more detail, after the SDOIT tour Mike was not happy with James and wanted to replace him. It appears in the book that the other members and management were not as keen to replace him. Mike had some strong statements, John Myung said nothing, Jordan said he was too new to take an opinion, and John Petrucci had some very tempered statements about James. In other words, I got the sense that JP had some concerns about James but never really thought seriously about replacing him. In the book he pretty much said that James didn't seem happy in the band and was wondering if he was still into it.
Mike on the other hand said he was unhappy with James's stage presence, his interaction with the audience, his weight, his vocal performance (he had trouble consistently hitting the high notes around that period but wasn't that bad overall), and I really got the notion that Mike was ready to replace him but the other guys were not. So I think ultimatum is a strong word but they did tell him they want to see an improvement in his performance. James took it to heart and admitted that he hadn't been a good place, was depressed from his vocal chord accident in the 90s, and was ready to improve. He started taking lessons again, started working out, stopped drinking on tour (he was never a heavy drinker anyway but alcohol isn't good for the voice), stopped smoking cigars ( I was shocked when I read that he smoked), and you can see a big improvement between the 2002 tours and the 2004 tours.
Wow, I didn't know all that. It makes me wonder who they would've chosen if they fired James. That's another example on MP not having as much control on things as he makes it sound every time he talks about it.
It appears Mike did have complete control over album titles, covers, setlists, and special unique performances (Score, cover songs, etc) but in the studio I think he definitely had less control than he made it out to be. I think JP musically had the most control and was clearly the leader.
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It appears Mike did have complete control over album titles, covers, setlists, and special unique performances (Score, cover songs, etc) but in the studio I think he definitely had less control than he made it out to be. I think JP musically had the most control and was clearly the leader.
I agree 100% on that. Don't tell Portnoy that, though, he won't agree with you :lol
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I didn't read the book but I thought the general consensus was that James was given a kinda of ultimatum after the Six Degrees tour, he improved and mantained his role in the band. I never heard even rumors of him being at risk around Black Clouds.
Yup. Nothing like that occurred around BC&SL although sometime around that timeframe or maybe a few years earlier Mike had said online that they would not have picked James if they needed a new vocalist at that time. James was quiet about it publicly but I think its pretty clear he was hurt/pissed off by it.
I believe this was only Mike's opinion since he was really into the harsher vocals at the time.
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I didn't read the book but I thought the general consensus was that James was given a kinda of ultimatum after the Six Degrees tour, he improved and mantained his role in the band. I never heard even rumors of him being at risk around Black Clouds.
Yup. Nothing like that occurred around BC&SL although sometime around that timeframe or maybe a few years earlier Mike had said online that they would not have picked James if they needed a new vocalist at that time. James was quiet about it publicly but I think its pretty clear he was hurt/pissed off by it.
I believe this was only Mike's opinion since he was really into the harsher vocals at the time.
Yeah, I don't see the others really having a problem with James's voice. Maybe they're just quiet about it but I doubt it. It really seemed like, at least from their quotes in the book, they weren't on board with switching vocalists even if there were a few things about James they weren't happy with at the time.
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I'm 150% happy James stayed, but if that had happened, his tenure would have been 10-11 years and 5 albums. The following singer, who would have taken over in 2003, would now have 13 years of tenure and 7 albums.
Of course numbers don't mean anything (take for example the 6 years, 4 albums run of Kiske in Helloween, 20 years later he is still missed and the reunion tour will sell out like bread), and James would have always been the classic singer, but at this point in time it would have all been water under the bridge.
Still, as I said, I'm very happy nothing changed.
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Yeah i wouldn't want DT with any other singer. He may have some off-days live, but the most important thing is always studio albums. And James always sounds amazing in the studio, among the best in the world in my opinion!
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Circling this back to Falling into Infinity, do you think, given where James' voice was 20 years ago, and where it is now, that if they performed some of these songs on upcoming tour legs, he'd change how he sings them?
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JL is not the greatest singer in the history of mankind, but he should be the singer in DT until he physically can not.
I'm usually a big defender of Mike P, but I don't really agree with most of the criticisms attributed to him here.
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Circling this back to Falling into Infinity, do you think, given where James' voice was 20 years ago, and where it is now, that if they performed some of these songs on upcoming tour legs, he'd change how he sings them?
Maybe just be more careful during "Burning My Soul." I know when I try to add some rasp to my voice (which, like James, does not have a natural rasp), I am headed for a short night and an unpleasant tomorrow.