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Dream Theater => Dream Theater => Topic started by: DarkLord_Lalinc on October 28, 2016, 10:22:13 AM
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I listened to the album earlier today after a year and a half or so of not listening it at all and these are my thoughts:
1) The drum mix is so bad. I mean, I know this is a recurrent theme, but holy crap they sound SO much better in The Astonishing. They're not still at the good-Portnoy sounding level, but come on. There were times in which I could only focus on the snare, and that sucks because it didn't let me enjoy the rest of the things happening in the song.
2) Illumination Theory is probably the best song they've done in their post Portnoy years, and thank the heavens for the Breaking the Fourth Wall version (just because of the better mix). The ending is so amazing and epic, but the album version sounds flat as hell. I can only hear the overpowering snare, Petrucci's low 7-string chords and JLB's chorus modified vocals. Where are my amazing Jordan keyboard sounds? I know he did some massive keyboard layering in that part, and it's practically non-existent in the mix. It sounds kind of artificial in a way, which is something that thankfully was corrected in BTFW.
3) The Bigger Picture is incredible, but once again it suffers of a bad mix. What could've been a top 20 song in my book ended up not cracking that list because of the overpowering guitars and drums. You could really hear the effect of the massive compression at the beginning, and that's not something I enjoy a lot.
4) Surrender to Reason is very underrated. The melodies in the chorus are great, and the middle part is quite enjoyable. Lots of people accuse DT12 of being a flat, generic and boring album; but songs like Surrender to Reason really stand out for being different in my book (and, for what it's worth, I think it's one of the better-mixed songs in the record).
5) False Awakening Suite would've sounded much more epic and incredible with the live orchestra/choir treatment The Astonishing had. Also, it's weird hearing the chocolate cake guitars at full steam all the time with some of Jordan's keyboards buried when they're supposed to be the most important elements in the song.
6) Someone just posted in another thread that Dream Theater is a fitting title for this album because it's kind of flat in its purpose, and I agree wholeheartedly. With a better mix, it would've been a nice collection of songs that should've been nice as introduction for new fans; but if someone asked to me to introduce them to Dream Theater I would beg them to stay away from DT12 until they've already checked out everything else. Kind of ironic, isn't it?
Throw away your comments, good folk.
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There are a few songs on this album that I do enjoy musically (The Bigger Picture being the best one), but as you said, the production is so bad that I can't listen to any of it. I'm actually serious. While I don't like The Astonishing I can still listen to it sometimes because I think it's funny, but with DT12 I get actually upset when I hear it, purely because of the production. I haven't heard a full DT12 song in years because of this.
EDIT: Also, just looked up the BtFW version of Illumination Theory for the first time. Wow, that was a different experience. Still not a favorite by any means, but just so much better here.
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Awesome post! I really enjoy DT12, but I even I have to admit that the mix kind of stinks. Thankfully, TA sounds terrific, but it's a pity that DT12 gets dragged down a bit by its sound.
Anyhow, I think that most of the songs on the album are really good, and I'd rank it high in the DT discography.
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I'm not sure what you guys are listening to the album on, but I don't hear what you are hearing. I can't say the mix is the best I have heard. But, honestly, it isn't so bad that it has ever even registered on my mind to pay attention to the mix at all. I mean, as in, I have never even given the mix a second thought.
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Kind of agree with the OP. I was so bummed with the production, i still like some songs and the BTFW versions were such an improvement.
Honestly, i think the production is up there with WDADU for the worst sounding DT album award.
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Kind of agree with the OP. I was so bummed with the production, i still like some songs and the BTFW versions were such an improvement.
Honestly, i think the production is up there with WDADU for the worst sounding DT album award.
Hmmm, no! Not even close.
B.Lee
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I don't really have any problems with it. It's by far my favorite album from the band since Train of Thought. And although I think I can understand why someone might have problems with the production (like the snare drum and the overall loudness), I don't have any problems with it. I actually think that it works well for that album. I'm not sure if it would work as well on an album like The Astonishing or Octavarium though.
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I'm not sure what you guys are listening to the album on, but I don't hear what you are hearing. I can't say the mix is the best I have heard. But, honestly, it isn't so bad that it has ever even registered on my mind to pay attention to the mix at all. I mean, as in, I have never even given the mix a second thought.
The mix is so unmusical to my ears. Parts that are supposed to be subtle and quiet are loud and in your face, Jordan Rudess is painfully buried in parts of songs where he is supposed to shine (and this is easy to compare with the BTFW versions of the songs) and the whole balance of instruments feels weird constantly. Just compare the whole listening experience of SFAM (mix-wise) to DT12 and you'll probably get what I mean.
As you say, the album is listenable and it's not the worse mix DT has put out there (we will always have WDADU lols) but if you compare much lower budget albums such as Haken's The Mountain or Affinity with DT12, it makes you wonder how in hell did DT not achieve something greater with that album.
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I don't feel that way about Jordan's parts at all. I mean, yes, the BTFW mix is very different and I definitely pick up on a lot of nuances that I do not readily hear on the album. But that's just because the mix is different--not that the mix on the album sounds bad to me. And to elaborate further, the mix on DT12 is very dynamic, and I can definitely hear lots of different things going on with the instruments at different times. But while the mix on BTFW is also very dynamic, to me, that mix is too keyboard-heavy and brings the keyboards too far forward while buying the guitar a bit too much and making the guitar often sound dry and harsh.
To each their own. I'm not saying you are wrong. But I definitely don't hear it the same way you do.
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I'm not sure what you guys are listening to the album on, but I don't hear what you are hearing. I can't say the mix is the best I have heard. But, honestly, it isn't so bad that it has ever even registered on my mind to pay attention to the mix at all. I mean, as in, I have never even given the mix a second thought.
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:dunno:
I think Illumination Theory is their 2nd worst "Epic" behind A Change Of Seasons
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Maybe it's because I always listen to the HD version, but the sound of DT12 never bothers me. No, it's not the best sounding album, but it's fine for the style the music is in.
This is still an album I can listen to from start to finish and enjoy everything from it. Illumination Theory and Surrender to Reason, in particular, are outstanding.
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This may not be a super-popular view here, but that's cool:
It's my second favorite DT album.
It's one of the best rock albums I've ever heard.
It's the album I had been hoping for them to release for almost 20 years.
And I LOVE the drum sound on the album.
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WOW!
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Nice thread Dark Lord!
I agree with the majority of your impressions, here are some of mine:
1) The drumming doesn't sound bad at all! Actually, I kinda love the snared sound from here a lot.
2) Behind the Veil, I'd say would be my main player for this album. Although it isn't as long as Illumination Theory, I really think the song's foundation is really strong. Petrucci's riffs are amazing and his solo just is awesome!
3) Enigma Machine for me was the only song in this album that kind of stood out like a sore thumb. Other instrumentals like Stream of Consciousness, Hell's Kitchen, Erotomania had a lot of great melodies, but Enigma Machine was just...what's the word? I just didn't like it as much.
4) I feel like Jordan Rudess should have had more solo's. Petrucci took like all of them. No hate though.
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Kind of agree with the OP. I was so bummed with the production, i still like some songs and the BTFW versions were such an improvement.
Honestly, i think the production is up there with WDADU for the worst sounding DT album award.
Yeah, like Bosk also said, the mix did not stick out at all. I had no problem hearing the album.
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Nice thread Dark Lord!
I agree with the majority of your impressions, here are some of mine:
1) The drumming doesn't sound bad at all! Actually, I kinda love the snared sound from here a lot.
2) Behind the Veil, I'd say would be my main player for this album. Although it isn't as long as Illumination Theory, I really think the song's foundation is really strong. Petrucci's riffs are amazing and his solo just is awesome!
3) Enigma Machine for me was the only song in this album that kind of stood out like a sore thumb. Other instrumentals like Stream of Consciousness, Hell's Kitchen, Erotomania had a lot of great melodies, but Enigma Machine was just...what's the word? I just didn't like it as much.
4) I feel like Jordan Rudess should have had more solo's. Petrucci took like all of them. No hate though.
There is so much wrong here, it is pretty painful. :facepalm:
I won't say if the drum is good or not because I really don't care about how it sounds. How Mike played those fills, those beats, those solo's....that is what I look at, not at the sound. Same for Images and Words....I don't care about the flat snare.
Behind the Veil is an underrated song, but you yourself, you are overrating it. :lol
It is nowhere as near as powerful as IT or TBP. I know how it's your "opinion", but you should know when an opinion is very weak and without proof when you compare two totally different stuff like: Justin Bieber is worse than Opeth. I mean, seriously?
Enigma Machine had great melodies too. The bass had a super prominent role in this song and all instruments got a fair share of their solo's and we haven't seen a song like that since Ytse Jam. To me EM, was not the weakest link of the song. I'd have to say The Enemy Inside would be their weakest.
Go to Petrucci or Dream Theater and say what you said: "Jordan Rudess should have had more solo's."
They did not exclude Rudess' solo on purpose. It's not like they just said to Jordan, "Jordan, your solo's are great, but this album will be mostly guitar solo's." Why don't you listen to "As I Am", the song's meaning was written specifically written for fan's like you.
:dunno:
I think Illumination Theory is their 2nd worst "Epic" behind A Change Of Seasons
:eek
Why do you think that?? A Change of Season's at dead last?? How come?
This may not be a super-popular view here, but that's cool:
It's my second favorite DT album.
It's one of the best rock albums I've ever heard.
It's the album I had been hoping for them to release for almost 20 years.
And I LOVE the drum sound on the album.
May not be super popular, but sounds right to me. :)
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Um, it was all my opinion. Why would you bash on me for having an opinion? I don't think there are such things as "so much wrongs" on opinions because we were all created differently. I don't want to be bashed everytime I write my opinion.
Also, The Enemy Inside might be your weakest link, but I think The Enemy Inside Inside is a solid song and Enigma Machine is the weakest link of this album.
Opinions. We all have them. Honestly, you brought me down a bit with that comment, because I take every comment to heart, but I understand why you wrote that.
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Um, it was all my opinion. Why would you bash on me for having an opinion? I don't think there are such things as "so much wrongs" on opinions because we were all created differently. I don't want to be bashed everytime I write my opinion.
Also, The Enemy Inside might be your weakest link, but I think The Enemy Inside Inside is a solid song and Enigma Machine is the weakest link of this album.
Opinions. We all have them. Honestly, you brought me down a bit with that comment, because I take every comment to heart, but I understand why you wrote that.
You have to relax. :chill
I'm just responding to what you were saying. No need to get all defensive.
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Um, it was all my opinion. Why would you bash on me for having an opinion? I don't think there are such things as "so much wrongs" on opinions because we were all created differently. I don't want to be bashed everytime I write my opinion.
Also, The Enemy Inside might be your weakest link, but I think The Enemy Inside Inside is a solid song and Enigma Machine is the weakest link of this album.
Opinions. We all have them. Honestly, you brought me down a bit with that comment, because I take every comment to heart, but I understand why you wrote that.
You have to relax. :chill
I'm just responding to what you were saying. No need to get all defensive.
Apologies for eavesdropping, but in fairness to BF, "You're totally wrong! Face palm emoji!" isn't the friendliest of responses. You came off a tad strong. :lol
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I've heard four versions of DT12: The HD mix, the 5.1, the CD, and the vinyl. I was underwhelmed with the HD mix, they basically just turned it down, but that does solve a lot of the problems with the mastering. I was very disappointed with the 5.1. Something about it just sounded really brash. Not so much because of the loudness, I really don't know how to describe it beyond that. I thought the CD version sounded fine. A bit loud but far from their worst mix. Vinyl, again, pretty much just a quieter version of the CD.
Overall I definitely understand people's qualms with the production, but I think it's a better sounding DT album than at least 3 or 4 of their other albums. I thought the drums were actually an improvement on ADTOE. The in your face sound is pretty effective on a few songs too.
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Um, it was all my opinion. Why would you bash on me for having an opinion? I don't think there are such things as "so much wrongs" on opinions because we were all created differently. I don't want to be bashed everytime I write my opinion.
Also, The Enemy Inside might be your weakest link, but I think The Enemy Inside Inside is a solid song and Enigma Machine is the weakest link of this album.
Opinions. We all have them. Honestly, you brought me down a bit with that comment, because I take every comment to heart, but I understand why you wrote that.
You have to relax. :chill
I'm just responding to what you were saying. No need to get all defensive.
In defense of Blind Faythe, Scar, read your answer again and tell me it isn't a little condescending. Now, if it was intentional or not, i don't know, but it still sounds condescending.
There is so much wrong here, it is pretty painful. :facepalm:
Behind the Veil is an underrated song, but you yourself, you are overrating it. :lol
I know how it's your "opinion", but you should know when an opinion is very weak and without proof when you compare two totally different stuff like: Justin Bieber is worse than Opeth. I mean, seriously?
" Why don't you listen to "As I Am", the song's meaning was written specifically written for fan's like you.
B.Lee
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:eek
Why do you think that?? A Change of Season's at dead last?? How come?
It's just never clicked. It just seems like a hodge podge of ideas that don't flow. Kinda like the first few minutes of illumination Theory.
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I like DT12 quite a bit. I think it’s a pretty good mix of the style of songs they typically write including the straight ahead album opening rocker, the medium length prog/metal song and an album ending epic. Thanks to this forum I’ve really dug deep into many of DT’s influences so the somewhat “stitched together” structure of IT does not bother me. I’ve heard quite of few of the great epics of the 70’s and not all flow seamlessly from end to end. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't - IT works for me.
I’m not a musician so I don’t typically focus on the sound of a particular instrument in the mix. I don’t think the CD version sounds bad. For a while both Dream Theater and Iron Maiden were my two most listen to bands. As much as I still love IM they have a pretty big catalog of poor sounding recordings. Too many IM CD’s sound muddy to me and lack a little on the high end. DT by a wide margin make a much better sounding CD.
I agree with KevShmev in that I can typically put this CD in and not be tempted to skip a song.
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Yeah, just read it fully now. I understand how cringey it could have been. Sorry.
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What kind of sound system are you listening to it on? This album has always sounded fine to me. I remember being quit impressed with the production. Perhaps you mistakenly put the 5.1 mid in your player.
It came with both versions. The CD stereo mix sounds great. I tried putting in the 5.1 mix and it was aweful on the stereo. That version is panned for 5.1 or 7.1 surround systems. Make sure you put in the regular CD..
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What kind of sound system are you listening to it on? This album has always sounded fine to me. I remember being quit impressed with the production. Perhaps you mistakenly put the 5.1 mid in your player.
It came with both versions. The CD stereo mix sounds great. I tried putting in the 5.1 mix and it was aweful on the stereo. That version is panned for 5.1 or 7.1 surround systems. Make sure you put in the regular CD..
I have listened to DT12 on headphones and a car stereo. Sounded good on both IMO. Never really got the hate on the album's production, even the snare drum sounds fine to me.
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What kind of sound system are you listening to it on? This album has always sounded fine to me. I remember being quit impressed with the production. Perhaps you mistakenly put the 5.1 mid in your player.
It came with both versions. The CD stereo mix sounds great. I tried putting in the 5.1 mix and it was aweful on the stereo. That version is panned for 5.1 or 7.1 surround systems. Make sure you put in the regular CD..
I've listened to the normal version on headphones and in my car. Sounded pretty bad to me on each.
But we all have different ears and notice different things. We also all have different tastes and different standards. So some one us like the mix, some of us don't. It's all good. Fortunately for me, I also don't like the album itself, so I don't get too upset about the mix ruining an otherwise great album for me.
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I actually love the snare drum sound. I was (and still am) shocked at how much hate that got here.
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Along For The Ride is pretty bad. The muddy booming snare doesn't do that song any favours.
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The HDTracks version has a much nicer mix.
The drum sounds are pretty bad regardless, but it's much less compressed and open sounding. I can listen to the CD mix without getting annoyed simply because I really love most of the songs on this album, but honestly I wish they would have provided multitracks for all the songs (they only did for BTV)...
IT, TBP and STR are without a doubt my favorite tracks on the album, but I don't dislike any of the tracks.
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Wasn't it discovered that the HDTracks, whilst sounding better - was the same mix just mastered less hot or was the vinyl version or something ?
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The criticism the mix gets from me is because I think the mix is quite unmusical to my ears. Dynamics are practically non-existent and everything sounds flat and lifeless, IMHO. It's so great that so many of you can enjoy this album thoroughly and, don't get me wrong, I really like this album's music and what it has to offer, but my case is based on how better it could've been.
I know sometimes it's silly to say: 'they should've mixed this instrument higher' or 'they should've used another snare' and whatnot, because guys like John Petrucci and Jordan Rudess probably know best what's the better way to present their music. Also, when someone says something like: 'this album is great!' or 'this album is bad!', even if it's not stated as such one should infer that we're talking about his/her opinion. Part of what I like the most about writing in this forum is the wealth of opinions (as opposed to the one-sided discussions over MP.com, for example), and that makes me glad that I made this thread.
Finally, in the same fashion that some of you don't like The Astonishing's sound production at all, I happen to love it. I really think both Chycki and Petrucci made their best efforts into creating and mixing that album. It's not easy to produce and mix a session with 100 or more tracks, and they really pulled it off.
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Wasn't it discovered that the HDTracks, whilst sounding better - was the same mix just mastered less hot or was the vinyl version or something ?
Not even mastered less hot. They apparently just skipped the limiter, so there's less clipping. Otherwise it's the same master though. I find the CD version almost unlistenable, it just hurts my ears. The HDTracks version is a noticeable improvement, but still one of their worst sounding albums. Like Adami though, I'm not much of a fan of the album anyway, so it doesn't bother me.
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Nice thread Dark Lord!
I agree with the majority of your impressions, here are some of mine:
1) The drumming doesn't sound bad at all! Actually, I kinda love the snared sound from here a lot.
2) Behind the Veil, I'd say would be my main player for this album. Although it isn't as long as Illumination Theory, I really think the song's foundation is really strong. Petrucci's riffs are amazing and his solo just is awesome!
3) Enigma Machine for me was the only song in this album that kind of stood out like a sore thumb. Other instrumentals like Stream of Consciousness, Hell's Kitchen, Erotomania had a lot of great melodies, but Enigma Machine was just...what's the word? I just didn't like it as much.
4) I feel like Jordan Rudess should have had more solo's. Petrucci took like all of them. No hate though.
There is so much wrong here, it is pretty painful. :facepalm:
I won't say if the drum is good or not because I really don't care about how it sounds. How Mike played those fills, those beats, those solo's....that is what I look at, not at the sound. Same for Images and Words....I don't care about the flat snare.
Behind the Veil is an underrated song, but you yourself, you are overrating it. :lol
It is nowhere as near as powerful as IT or TBP. I know how it's your "opinion", but you should know when an opinion is very weak and without proof when you compare two totally different stuff like: Justin Bieber is worse than Opeth. I mean, seriously?
Enigma Machine had great melodies too. The bass had a super prominent role in this song and all instruments got a fair share of their solo's and we haven't seen a song like that since Ytse Jam. To me EM, was not the weakest link of the song. I'd have to say The Enemy Inside would be their weakest.
Go to Petrucci or Dream Theater and say what you said: "Jordan Rudess should have had more solo's."
They did not exclude Rudess' solo on purpose. It's not like they just said to Jordan, "Jordan, your solo's are great, but this album will be mostly guitar solo's." Why don't you listen to "As I Am", the song's meaning was written specifically written for fan's like you.
As has been mentioned, this is WAY out of line. You need to knock that off immediately. Consider this a warning.
And FYI, As I Am has nothing to do with fans.
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Um, it was all my opinion. Why would you bash on me for having an opinion? I don't think there are such things as "so much wrongs" on opinions because we were all created differently. I don't want to be bashed everytime I write my opinion.
Also, The Enemy Inside might be your weakest link, but I think The Enemy Inside Inside is a solid song and Enigma Machine is the weakest link of this album.
Opinions. We all have them. Honestly, you brought me down a bit with that comment, because I take every comment to heart, but I understand why you wrote that.
Don't let Scar get to you; most of us around here are much nicer than that. :tup :tup
Keep the opinions coming and we can discuss. :hat
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Dream Theater is my third favorite Dream Theater album, behind The Astonishing and Awake. It has ny favorite DT epic in Illumination Theory, which for me is the most meticulously composed DT piece in terms of structure. Outside the epic, I love how each song is some sort of a short intro to a newbie of what DT songs are about (a rocking metal intro, a Rush-like rocker, an instrumental, an anthemic piece, a prog METAL song, a PROG metal song, a ballad).
If we are talking about the mix, not their best sounding album but it's not really bad. It is more of the mix works really well with the more heavy songs (TEI, BTV, EM) but not with songs like AFTR and TLG. That said:
Should be higher in the mix - keys, cymbals
Should be lower in the mix - the guitar
Just right - the bass. At first I didn't like it because it does not have that depth, but I learned to love it because it has a unique character. I also love the toms and the bass drum.
About the snare, I think BTFW has shown us how much better it could have been. Even Mangini had his misgivings, but team player that he is, he worked with the team vision. The silver lining really is that he developed a new technique because of the snare (that is, putting much of what could have been the ghost notes on the rides and hi-hats).
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Nice thread Dark Lord!
I agree with the majority of your impressions, here are some of mine:
1) The drumming doesn't sound bad at all! Actually, I kinda love the snared sound from here a lot.
2) Behind the Veil, I'd say would be my main player for this album. Although it isn't as long as Illumination Theory, I really think the song's foundation is really strong. Petrucci's riffs are amazing and his solo just is awesome!
3) Enigma Machine for me was the only song in this album that kind of stood out like a sore thumb. Other instrumentals like Stream of Consciousness, Hell's Kitchen, Erotomania had a lot of great melodies, but Enigma Machine was just...what's the word? I just didn't like it as much.
4) I feel like Jordan Rudess should have had more solo's. Petrucci took like all of them. No hate though.
There is so much wrong here, it is pretty painful. :facepalm:
I won't say if the drum is good or not because I really don't care about how it sounds. How Mike played those fills, those beats, those solo's....that is what I look at, not at the sound. Same for Images and Words....I don't care about the flat snare.
Behind the Veil is an underrated song, but you yourself, you are overrating it. :lol
It is nowhere as near as powerful as IT or TBP. I know how it's your "opinion", but you should know when an opinion is very weak and without proof when you compare two totally different stuff like: Justin Bieber is worse than Opeth. I mean, seriously?
Enigma Machine had great melodies too. The bass had a super prominent role in this song and all instruments got a fair share of their solo's and we haven't seen a song like that since Ytse Jam. To me EM, was not the weakest link of the song. I'd have to say The Enemy Inside would be their weakest.
Go to Petrucci or Dream Theater and say what you said: "Jordan Rudess should have had more solo's."
They did not exclude Rudess' solo on purpose. It's not like they just said to Jordan, "Jordan, your solo's are great, but this album will be mostly guitar solo's." Why don't you listen to "As I Am", the song's meaning was written specifically written for fan's like you.
As has been mentioned, this is WAY out of line. You need to knock that off immediately. Consider this a warning.
And FYI, As I Am has nothing to do with fans.
Yu know, I don't why my comment warranted all that. You know that sometimes you have to speak the harsh truth in order for the point to get through. I just did that. It might have sounded a little condescending, but that's life!
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Yu know, I don't why my comment warranted all that. You know that sometimes you have to speak the harsh truth in order for the point to get through. I just did that. It might have sounded a little condescending, but that's life!
Except that you didn't speak truth; you spouted opinions and trashed someone else's. Nice way to act to a relatively new member to the board. :tdwn :town
And your As I Am comment a) made zero sense, indicating you have no clue what the song is about, and b) was obviously intended to be a mean-spirited dig.
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I do know what As I Am means
Its for the guitarist of Queensyrche who tried telling Petrucci on how to play his guitar
That I know, but as I am can have that meaning to: Take the band for who they are, don't try to change it.
Just because a song had an original meaning, doesn't mean it can't mean others.
I told her that her opinion was wrong. If I said that Martin Van Buren was the greatest American prescient ever, you have every right to say that my opinion is wrong, then give your opinion
::)
Edit: why am i being watched? ???
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Scar using wikipedia to justify his posts, what's new.
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............well this thread has taken a strange turn.
How about this, since I consider this my lowest ranked DT album, I'll state the things I like about it.
1. I really like False Awakening Suite. It's short, but it has some really awesome ideas in it.
2. I think if Along for the Ride had different production, I could really dig it. The composition is mostly really good.
3. Parts of Illumination theory are great. Some of his best heavy riffs in a long time are in that song. I also really like the orchestra break. I think maybe it's the last 3rd or something that I don't like, but I think I like the rest. Mangini really nails this song
4. Behind the Veil is still a song I can regularly listen to. Just a good song with good melodies.
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Scar using wikipedia to justify his posts, what's new.
Any proof on that? Don't just assume.
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Edit: why am i being watched? ???
You're not being watched, but when someone is really rude to someone, as you were to Blind Faythe, expect to be called out for it.
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No, there is a watched green sign on the bottom of my name
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No, there is a watched green sign on the bottom of my name
Because Bosk issued you a warning.
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lol
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My opinion on this album hasn't really changed. I still think ADTOE is the best DT album and The Astonishing is the worst. I don't really rank albums but I would probably put DT12 somewhere in the middle.
I think it got off to a sloppy start with The False Awakening Suite which really just sounds like a video game soundtrack. The Enemy Inside is also the weakest song on the album even though there is nothing wrong with it. The Looking Glass is also a rather bland song.
Then the album picks up. I get that the Enigma Machine isn't well loved but I think it is one of DT's best instrumentals. It has everything I want in an instrumental. It actually feels like a song whereas The Dance of Eternity feels like a show off piece.
Now we get to The Bigger Picture which is one of DT's greatest songs of all time, hands down. I honestly am still kind of surprised it doesn't get more love.
Behind the Veil and Surrender to Reason are pretty decent.
Along for the Ride is an amazing song that doesn't get enough love. I wish it would become DT's "anthem" rather than The Spirit Carries On which I've always felt was pretty weak.
Illumination Theory is a very weird epic. I love everything about it but the lyrics almost don't fit with the rest of the album. That's nitpicking though.
Also, I think the drum sound is sort of on par with I&W's drum sound. It's going to sound dated pretty quick but to people that can live in the moment or put themselves in that sort of trendy time frame, it actually isn't that bad. I like it but I'm glad they've scaled back. Once is enough.
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If we're still giving out the annual "thoughts on DT12" opinion, I still love it. I would rate this album highly in my Top 50 albums (I still need to update that, but my brain is just not clicking in terms of writing the thoughts in the honest approach that I want it to be).
The Bigger Picture was that sort of song that I wanted to hear in my life in 2013. Loved the intro to Surrender to Reason and enjoyed Behind the Veil as a whole. Illumination Theory was a strong song that kept my attention throughout its length (if any long song keeps my attention through its whole length, then it's a great song).
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The Bigger Picture was that sort of song that I wanted to hear in my life in 2013. Loved the intro to Surrender to Reason and enjoyed Behind the Veil as a whole. Illumination Theory was a strong song that kept my attention throughout its length (if any long song keeps my attention through its whole length, then it's a great song).
I agree. Also, love the chorus to Surrender to Reason very much. It is really catchy.
As for Illumination Theory, I love the string section in the middle very much and the "easter egg" at the end. A really beautiful song and the ending quote really brings the mood up in me. Awesome.
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The best of the post Portnoy albums for me. It doesn't have anything as good as Breaking All Illusions on it, but it's a very consistently strong album for me with not much in the way of tracks I feel compelled to skip while I'm spinning it.
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The Bigger Picture was that sort of song that I wanted to hear in my life in 2013. Loved the intro to Surrender to Reason and enjoyed Behind the Veil as a whole. Illumination Theory was a strong song that kept my attention throughout its length (if any long song keeps my attention through its whole length, then it's a great song).
I agree. Also, love the chorus to Surrender to Reason very much. It is really catchy.
As for Illumination Theory, I love the string section in the middle very much and the "easter egg" at the end. A really beautiful song and the ending quote really brings the mood up in me. Awesome.
The Illumination Theory string section is one of the best things DT has ever done. Funnily enough, it doesn't include any of their instruments lol.
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Lump me in with the crowd that thinks the production ruins it for them. That isn't to say it would've been a stellar album otherwise, but it's not their worst. Near the bottom for me, though.
That said, there are plenty of great ideas in the album that I do appreciate. None of them just make it quite all the way there to interest me enough to listen to the album regularly.
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The Bigger Picture was that sort of song that I wanted to hear in my life in 2013. Loved the intro to Surrender to Reason and enjoyed Behind the Veil as a whole. Illumination Theory was a strong song that kept my attention throughout its length (if any long song keeps my attention through its whole length, then it's a great song).
I agree. Also, love the chorus to Surrender to Reason very much. It is really catchy.
As for Illumination Theory, I love the string section in the middle very much and the "easter egg" at the end. A really beautiful song and the ending quote really brings the mood up in me. Awesome.
The Illumination Theory string section is one of the best things DT has ever done. Funnily enough, it doesn't include any of their instruments lol.
Agreed. Very peaceful and charming to listen too. And yeah, none of the band's instruments. XD
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The Bigger Picture was that sort of song that I wanted to hear in my life in 2013. Loved the intro to Surrender to Reason and enjoyed Behind the Veil as a whole. Illumination Theory was a strong song that kept my attention throughout its length (if any long song keeps my attention through its whole length, then it's a great song).
I agree. Also, love the chorus to Surrender to Reason very much. It is really catchy.
As for Illumination Theory, I love the string section in the middle very much and the "easter egg" at the end. A really beautiful song and the ending quote really brings the mood up in me. Awesome.
The Illumination Theory string section is one of the best things DT has ever done. Funnily enough, it doesn't include any of their instruments lol.
I'm indifferent about the string section, but maybe part of that comes with the awkward placing of it in between two heavy sections with very little musical transition. I think I would've enjoyed it more if it came as the prelude to Illumination Theory, maybe even as its own track that crosses into the beginning of Paradoxe De La Lumière Noire.
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It's been longer than a year for me. Bad production or not, the album for the most part, just isn't that appealing to me. I think of DT's discography as a mountain. SDOIT being the peak. Subsequent albums on their way down the other side but still pretty good thru ADTOE. The song BAI is an epic peak in itself but the drop off continues after that.
Also, the fascination with IT still eludes me to this day. Just because a song has structure doesn't mean it's structured well and/or musically appealing. But hey, whatever tosses the salad huh? :lol
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Also, the fascination with IT still eludes me to this day. Just because a song has structure doesn't mean it's structured well and/or musically appealing. But hey, whatever tosses the salad huh? :lol
Well on the other side of that, just because a song is disjointed doesn't mean it's bad.
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I'm a big fan of the structure and the composition of IT, but it just sounds so bad with the drums, processed vocals, and horrible production.
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I'm a big fan of the structure and the composition of IT, but it just sounds so bad with the drums, processed vocals, and horrible production.
And the out of place orchestral section that, while pretty nice to listen to on its own, completely destroys the mood of the song.
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I'm a big fan of the structure and the composition of IT, but it just sounds so bad with the drums, processed vocals, and horrible production.
And the out of place orchestral section that, while pretty nice to listen to on its own, completely destroys the mood of the song.
Totally disagreed. It doesn't destroy anything.
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I'm a big fan of the structure and the composition of IT, but it just sounds so bad with the drums, processed vocals, and horrible production.
And the out of place orchestral section that, while pretty nice to listen to on its own, completely destroys the mood of the song.
Ehhh. IT isn't a masterpiece, and I can see where you're coming from, but I think it's fine.
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I'm a big fan of the structure and the composition of IT, but it just sounds so bad with the drums, processed vocals, and horrible production.
And the out of place orchestral section that, while pretty nice to listen to on its own, completely destroys the mood of the song.
I don't mean this rudely, but what mood?
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The 60 seconds before the orchestra destroys the song is one of my favorite 60 seconds in their entire catalog.
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The middle section of IT narrates pretty well the journey of enlightenment bridging the questions (Live, Die, Kill) and answers (The Pursuit of Truth). The enlightenment was gradual, which is why it went from a long ambient section to a waltzy orchestral section that tries to communicate a feeling of being in a journey, then the final orchestral section that mirrored the melody in Paradox of the Black Light to signal the moment of enlightenment.
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I'm a big fan of the structure and the composition of IT, but it just sounds so bad with the drums, processed vocals, and horrible production.
And the out of place orchestral section that, while pretty nice to listen to on its own, completely destroys the mood of the song.
I don't mean this rudely, but what mood?
Try listening to an edit without the orchestral section and you'll see what I mean. If you don't, then well, different strokes for different folks. I'm not trying to put down anyone who likes the song, I just really thing it works much better as an energetic song until the very finale.
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The middle section of IT narrates pretty well the journey of enlightenment bridging the questions (Live, Die, Kill) and answers (The Pursuit of Truth). The enlightenment was gradual, which is why it went from a long ambient section to a waltzy orchestral section that tries to communicate a feeling of being in a journey, then the final orchestral section that mirrored the melody in Paradox of the Black Light to signal the moment of enlightenment.
That is the best I've seen describe the song.
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Yeah! And the part before the instrumental section asks all the questions, and the part after answers them all.
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Yes. When I first came to understand all of that, it GREATLY enhanced my appreciation for the song. The concept is brilliant, as is the execution. But the problem I have is still this: I just don't like being jarred out of the rapid, upbeat pace of the song for what feels like an over-extended mellow section, and then being jarred back out of that with the same rapid, upbeat pace again. I mean, overall, I still really like the song. But the middle section is a definite downer for me.
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While it doesn't ruin the song for me, I agree.
To contrast, that concept works in TCOT because it's pretty slow build back into driving and big ending. The meter of the song works really for that build up too in that you can have both a calm/relaxed feel and a powerful/driving one without changing meter or tempos.
In IT, after the drop off and the instrumental section, it pretty much jumps right into the climax of the song, then just moves to the finale, which is always a bit more of a slower, dramatic style. It's jarring in a bad way.
When there's time for the climax to build like in TCOT or 8vm, that high point and subsequent falling action, if you will, are much for satisfying.
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Worst DT album, to me it is unlistenable.
But I like the enemy inside and IT in the Breaking DVD.
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I do prefer ADTOE to DT12, but it's because of mixed feelings.
I love half of the album because it's well composed and really liked from the first listen, and the strings in the IT touched me, and even more in the live.
I disliked some predictable radio vibe I felt here and there, I don't want DT to make efforts for the masses :D
Soundwise, I agree it could be way better, and some choices are unexplainable for me, like towards the end JP does irrititating screeching sounds while playing that force me to lower the volume :/
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That is the best I've seen describe the song.
It's even more interesting if you take into account the mirroring u-shaped structure of the song, but I think some are already tired of me sharing this over and over again. :lol
DARK LIGHT
Crescendo drum roll Decrescendo drum roll
v ^
Slow majestic intro Slow majestic ending
Paradox of the References to light in
Black Light paradoxical lyrics
v ^
Rocking riff Rocking riff
v ^
Harsh reality Harsh reality
Questions Answers
v ^
Nothingness >journey > enlightenment
TCOT is usually used as a comparison, but it's not comparable because TCOT is a linear narrative. IT is not linear, it is more comparable to SDOIT in structure.
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TCOT is usually used as a comparison, but it's not comparable because TCOT is a linear narrative. IT is not linear, it is more comparable to SDOIT in structure.
Lyrically and thematically, I agree that TCOT is not a good comparison. But in terms of big picture musical structure, the comparison is easy to see. And I think it is especially easy to latch onto the musical similarities given that these are the only two big epics that feature an uncharacteristic extended soft/ambient section smack in the middle.
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They also did that soft section in the middle thing with the Goodnight Kiss section in SDOIT. The transition is actually similarly jarring coming from TTTSTA.
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SDOIT is a bit different to me because it feels more like suite or group of individual and independent songs kind of flowing into each other. I suppose the same could be said for Octavarium too for many.
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Aside from the blatantly copied intro/outro drum fills, I don't see any notable similarity between IT and SDOIT. IT and TCOT are a natural comparison, as far as the DT epics go, at least. It's a bit more difficult to share structural similarites with a 19+ minute song than it is for a 4 minute pop/rock song.
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Since we are on the boat of their self titled album......
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYFsSBs23G8
Pretty fun as heck if I do say so myself. Randomly autoplayed after I finished listening to Enigma Machine.
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Aside from the blatantly copied intro/outro drum fills, I don't see any notable similarity between IT and SDOIT.
It's not just the drum fills. The exception is in the Solitary Shell part.
SDOIT pattern:
drum roll > majestic (overture) > rock (ATC) > heavy (WIMH/TTTSTA) > slow, brooding (GK) > acoustic (SS) > rock (ATC-R) > majestic (LT/GF) > drum roll
IT pattern:
drum roll > majestic (paradox of black light) > rock (riffing) > heavy (LDK) > slow, brooding (TEC) > heavy (TPOT) > rock (riffing) > majestic (STP) > drum roll
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SDOIT is similar to IT in the same way people argue that Outcry was like Metropolis. Even boiling down a 42 minute / 19 minute song to 7 main vague descriptions of sections it's a bit of a stretch.
However, looking at the rough structure of TCOT/IT, I came up with this-
TCOT
introduction of main theme in slower section > heavier instrumental section > heavy verse > chorus > instrumental noodly > different heavy verse section > chorus > instrumental > soft/ambient section > slower tempo epic finale vocal section at end > epic guitar solo outro
IT
introduction of main theme in slower section > heavier instrumental section > heavy verse > chorus > instrumental noodly > different heavy verse section > chorus > instrumental > soft/ambient section > heavier vocal section > instrumental section > slower tempo epic finale vocal section at end > epic guitar solo
Is it a perfect comparison? Of course not. But there are actually a lot of similarities in structure, especially before the middle breaks. And while there are also admittedly some contrivances in my classifications, they're much less vague contrivances than yours! :P