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General => General Music Discussion => Topic started by: Orbert on June 21, 2016, 07:52:37 PM

Title: The Gentle Giant Discography
Post by: Orbert on June 21, 2016, 07:52:37 PM
Before Gentle Giant, the three Shulman brothers - Phil, Derek, and Ray - were in Simon Dupree and the Big Sound, an English R&B / Soul group which ventured into pop as well as psychedelia and early prog.

Gentle Giant was originally the three Shulman brothers plus Kerry Minnear on keyboards and vocals, Gary Green on guitar, and Martin Smith on drums.

(https://i.imgur.com/GGaUrFs.png)

Gentle Giant (1970) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FBN9wZMEb0o)
(Note: The album starts with a very long fade up)

Gary Green: Guitars
Kerry Minnear: Keyboards, Some Bass, Cello, Vocals, Tuned Percussion
Derek Shulman: Vocals, Some Bass
Phil Shulman: Sax, Trumpet, Recorder, Vocals
Ray Shulman: Most Bass, Violin, Guitar, Percussion, Backing Vocals
Martin Smith: Drums, Percussion

(https://imgur.com/oxknVGX.jpg)

Giant (6:22) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBqyv6MdP0w&list=PLOJNB1mVI-VK9AufKK_7Tsq1UO6y8sjuv&index=28)
Funny Ways (4:21) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oq4b3nMsyyE&list=PLOJNB1mVI-VK9AufKK_7Tsq1UO6y8sjuv)
Alucard (6:00) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQlB6bDKqjE)
Isn't It Quiet And Cold? (3:51) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ZqsIe6TpKA)
Nothing At All (9:08) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XqaLwwqgvc0)
Why Not (5:31) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UalV_z0DvSU&index=23&list=PLOJNB1mVI-VK9AufKK_7Tsq1UO6y8sjuv)
The Queen (1:40) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WdF7htHoTPk)

Paul Cosh: Tenor Horn on Giant
Claire Deniz: Cello on Isn't It Quiet And Cold?

----------

Giant (6:22) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBqyv6MdP0w&list=PLOJNB1mVI-VK9AufKK_7Tsq1UO6y8sjuv&index=28) takes a long time to build, but when it finally lets loose, it doesn't hold back.  Derek Shulman's unusually harsh tenor is, for some, an acquired taste.  The initial hook is an angular mix of about five different styles in ten notes.  The production, you notice right away, isn't great.  A bit stuffy.  But not completely horrible, and the performance shines through.  A great album opener, and of course the closest we get to a title track.

Funny Ways (4:21) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oq4b3nMsyyE&list=PLOJNB1mVI-VK9AufKK_7Tsq1UO6y8sjuv) is one of my favorite Gentle Giant songs.  Kerry Minnear's soft, almost too-weak voice is in total contrast to Derek's bombastic roar.  The intentionally dissonant harmony is jarring, challenging.  The instrumentation is where they really shine.  Ray's violin and Kerry's cello and their strange, open harmony, are great.  The horns (multitracked by Phil) add another dimension.  Every member of Gentle Giant was a virtuoso musician on at least one or two instruments, and they took full advantage of that both on record and live.  The live version of "Funny Ways" adds a vibes solo by Kerry that is truly transcendant.  But I'm getting ahead of myself.

Alucard (6:00) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQlB6bDKqjE) brings the horns back, adds some keyboards (including the first appearance of a Moog), some rocking guitar, and a dash of weirdness, and this is the result.

Isn't It Quiet And Cold? (3:51) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ZqsIe6TpKA) is a typical whimsical, perfectly English song, done Gentle Giant style.  Which is to say, a bit demented.  But lots of fun.  Nice tuned percussion solo by Kerry.

Nothing At All (9:08) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XqaLwwqgvc0) is a GG mini-epic.  There are a few in the catalogue.  Typically they feature three and four part vocals, challenging lyrics, brilliant interplay between instruments, and at least a few unexpected things tossed in, just in case that wasn't enough.  Actually, that describes every Gentle Giant song, pretty much.  But seriously, it's hard to beat Gentle Giant when they go for it.  Like it's nothing at all.

Why Not (5:31) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UalV_z0DvSU&index=23&list=PLOJNB1mVI-VK9AufKK_7Tsq1UO6y8sjuv) brings back the R&B roots, although by now you've noticed that they've always been here.  But it's easy to lose track, with a different influence hitting you every time you think you knew what was coming next.  Ha!

The Queen (1:40) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WdF7htHoTPk) is not the only Rock and Roll setting of "God Save the Queen" but it is one of the earliest, if not the earliest.  It's also one of the best.  A great album closer.

----------

Oh man.  Gentle Giant.  Quite simply one of the most unique bands in the history of Rock and Roll.  I've never heard of another band that played so many different instruments, combined so many different styles and genres, and still produced something so clearly Rock and Roll.  But just as clearly something more.  Gentle Giant were as prog as you could get.  Their vocal and instrumental arrangements are all amazing.  Every one of these guys was a top-shelf musician, an amalgam of styles and influences.  Combined...  well, a challenge to combine, to be sure.  There's times when they go a bit too far for some.  But if you're willing to hang on for the entire ride, it's worth it.

The original gatefold jacket opens vertically, which is also pretty cool.

(https://imgur.com/AxSg1bo.gif)
Title: Re: The Gentle Giant Discography: Gentle Giant (1970)
Post by: The Letter M on June 21, 2016, 08:48:05 PM
This thread might finally be the reason I try to get into GG. Of all of the "big" classic 70's prog bands, GG was always one I never quite got into, even after Crimson, Tull and VdGG as being some of the odder ones (well, more out there than say, Yes or Genesis, Kansas or Rush, and even Pink Floyd). I shall be following this one, and, whenever I have time, giving these songs a spin or two.

Looking forward to another in-depth Discography thread! :tup

-Marc.
Title: Re: The Gentle Giant Discography: Gentle Giant (1970)
Post by: splent on June 21, 2016, 09:19:30 PM
I'm fairly familiar with their discography ;)

This is a GREAT album.
Title: Re: The Gentle Giant Discography: Gentle Giant (1970)
Post by: Orbert on June 21, 2016, 11:16:53 PM
I know you're familiar with most if not all of their songs, but I wasn't sure if you considered yourself an expert on the band, more of a fan, or what.  But I do know that I'm a lot older than you, and thus have been a GG fan for a lot longer, so I have that going for me.

Of all of the "big" classic 70's prog bands, GG was always one I never quite got into

Gentle Giant never quite seemed to reach the same heights as the big guys, in terms of popularity.  Now, that's popularity within the prog world.  Outside of the prog world, you won't find anyone who's ever heard of them, and a lot of that has to do with them being "odder" than most, as you say.  They've been compared to early King Crimson, a comparison I never really understood until listening critically to the first few albums.  There's a fair amount of mellotron, thus inviting the comparison.  In terms of overall sound, no, nothing similar at all.

Yes, Genesis, and the other big guys, part of their "bigness" was due to also having some commercial success, while keeping one foot firmly planted in prog.  Gentle Giant clearly did not give a damn whether they achieved any commercial success.  They were in it for the music.  I always thought that that was pretty obvious, and that's one of the things I love about them.  It was always on their terms, popularity be damned.


I'm trying something new this time, which I hope people have noticed.  The album title and the song titles are all links to YouTube videos.  I couldn't possibly describe in words the brilliance of Gentle Giant; they really do have to be heard, so I wanted to make it as easy as possible.
Title: Re: The Gentle Giant Discography: Gentle Giant (1970)
Post by: splent on June 21, 2016, 11:56:40 PM
I think they are honestly one of the most underrated groups of the prog era. They never achieved that mainstream success but have a devoted following nonetheless. Their music is so complex in more ways than one... One of my favorite things about being in the cover band was the complexity of the music and the challenge it gave me to learn it, and then the success in actually playing it (at least fairly well).
Title: Re: The Gentle Giant Discography: Gentle Giant (1970)
Post by: Cyclopssss on June 22, 2016, 01:43:03 AM
Not famillair with this band at all, but I kept seeing their album covers in the record shop I frequented. Always excited to explore new (old) music, so count me in for the ride!
Title: Re: The Gentle Giant Discography: Gentle Giant (1970)
Post by: Kwyjibo on June 22, 2016, 02:45:56 AM
I'm following this but will probably not participate often (if at all, sorry).

I've heard a lot of this band over time, the Spock's Beard multi harmony parts where always referenced to Gentle Giant and then there's the DT connction through Derek Shulman, but I've never heard the music, but all of this got me interested.

Recently I bought Octopus and listened to it four or five times. Not sure what to make of it yet. It's not bad and it sure is interesting. There's a lot going on although the songs are all in the four to five minute range. Pretty short for prog  ;D. Sometimes it just seems a bit much, so this isn't easy listening, but then I wasn't expecting that.

As of now I'm not sure if I want to go deeper into their discography, so I will read this thread with anticipation and listen to Octopus some more.

And it's an Orbert discography thread, they are always an entertaining and informing read, even if the band in question is not my cup of tea.
Title: Re: The Gentle Giant Discography: Gentle Giant (1970)
Post by: Mladen on June 22, 2016, 06:59:59 AM
Good album, but not one of my favorites. Giant, Isn't it quiet and cold and Funny ways are my favorites. I'm slightly busy these days, but I'll try to read about the albums and contribute as much as I can, since Orbert always does a tremendous job.
Title: Re: The Gentle Giant Discography: Gentle Giant (1970)
Post by: Podaar on June 22, 2016, 09:13:40 AM
My introduction to Gentle Giant was through the art teacher (jewelry design) during my sophomore year in High School. Mr. Nalder was an odd duck. Young compared to the rest of the faculty, he was balding with long hair past his shoulders and a bushy beard that JP would envy. He always wore tailored three-piece suits (usually in earth tones), a wide neck tie, and expensive Ferragamo shoes. I assumed he dressed so impeccably to avoid censure for his otherwise hippy appearance but he always claimed that, "Good taste is necessary for a happy life."

I'll try and find a photo of him from my year book when I get home.

Anyway, he would allow students to bring in LPs to listen to during class. Everyone had a turn to share their records including himself. He almost always put on Gentle Giant when it was his turn. During that year he played all of the first seven albums at one point or another. The first album is the one I remember the most and it's great fun listening to it again right now.

There is so much to love about GG but biggest thing that's always stood out to me are the vocals. So good!

[edit] Oh, and "Nothing At All" is my favorite.
Title: Re: The Gentle Giant Discography: Gentle Giant (1970)
Post by: Orbert on June 22, 2016, 11:04:03 AM
Some more background stuff, trivia, and whatnot.

Reginald Dwight played keyboards for Simon Dupree and the Big Sound for a short time, and reportedly also auditioned for Gentle Giant.  He later became better known by his stage name, Elton John.

The eldest Shulman, Phil, is ten years older than Derek and 12 years older than Ray.  It was Derek and Ray who started the band which eventually became Simon Dupree and the Big Sound, and at their father's "suggestion", Phil was the band's manager, essentially so that he could keep an eye on his younger brothers.  They were originally The Howling Wolves, then The Road Runners, before becoming Simon Dupree and the Big Sound.  Phil eventually joined the band, adding his talents on trumpet, saxophones, and vocals.  The Shulmans' father was a jazz trumpeter who encouraged all three sons to become multi-instrumentalists.

Watching an early Gentle Giant show was an exercise in keeping track of who plays what.  Phil would add trumpet or saxophone as needed.  Kerry would switch from keyboards to cello at times, often along with Ray on violin.  Derek would play bass while Ray played violin.  Ray was also an excellent guitarist, and he and Gary would engage in some amazing acoustic guitar duets.

At one time, the band stated that their goal was to "expand the frontiers of contemporary popular music at the risk of becoming very unpopular".

If the names Derek Shulman and/or "The Road Runners" sound familiar, it may be because Derek later went on to become an executive for Atco.  During that time, he signed such groups as Dream Theater, Pantera, and others.  (In other words, we would not all be here reading this if it were not for Derek.)  Before that, he was with Polygram, signing Bon Jovi, Cinderella, and others.  He later became president of Roadrunner Records.
Title: Re: The Gentle Giant Discography: Gentle Giant (1970)
Post by: Cyclopssss on June 22, 2016, 11:14:01 AM
Thanks for the insights!  :tup
Title: Re: The Gentle Giant Discography: Gentle Giant (1970)
Post by: splent on June 24, 2016, 10:51:52 AM
That would have been kick ass if Elton John was in GG. Then again as talented as Elton is his tastes went in a completely different direction and GG wouldn't be GG.
Title: Re: The Gentle Giant Discography: Gentle Giant (1970)
Post by: Orbert on June 24, 2016, 11:18:56 AM
Yeah, as great as Elton is, I don't see him fitting into the band which Gentle Giant was, or wanted to be.  So ultimately it's a good thing that it didn't work out.  Elton teamed up with Bernie Taupin, and Gentle Giant got Kerry Minnear, whose skills and musical leanings were a much better fit.
Title: Re: The Gentle Giant Discography: Gentle Giant (1970)
Post by: Cyclopssss on June 25, 2016, 04:48:19 AM
Listened to the debut album and the verdict is that I like it. A lot. Very Brittish, very Genesis-y. But I also hear a lot of Zappa-esque influences.  Love the vocal harmonies.   :tup
Title: Re: The Gentle Giant Discography: Gentle Giant (1970)
Post by: Mosh on June 25, 2016, 01:52:52 PM
 :metal

I just finished my yearly run through of the Yes discography while reading Orbert's thread to go along with it, so I'm very excited for a new one. I've never gotten too much into Gentle Giant, but I'll give them another shot for this.

I really dig their use of different instruments. You can tell they've had extensive musical training by the arrangements. When they switch instruments, the entire arrangement shifts to fit the new group. The blending of styles is really cool too. I really like the xylophone solo in Isn't It Quiet and Cold. The drums are doing a jazz waltz sort of beat, yet the xylophone's phrasing is much more reminiscent of a classical composition, not an improvised Jazz solo.
Title: Re: The Gentle Giant Discography: Gentle Giant (1970)
Post by: Nihil-Morari on June 26, 2016, 12:50:13 PM
Just posting here to check this out when I finally have more time on my hands. Love this band, and my love is getting deeper every year.
Title: Re: The Gentle Giant Discography: Gentle Giant (1970)
Post by: jammindude on June 26, 2016, 03:24:26 PM
Every trip to the CD store lately....I just stare longingly at the new re-release of Octopus remixed by Steven Wilson in 5.1.   But it's $35.   I swear, I think I'll pick it up next time. 

I hate buying online, but I often do break down once in awhile when I absolutely cannot find it anywhere else.  I just love the visceral experience of finding something in a CD store....buying on impulse, and then having the immediate fulfillment of owning a physical product only minutes after seeing it. 
Title: Re: The Gentle Giant Discography: Gentle Giant (1970)
Post by: NoseofNicko on June 26, 2016, 05:02:17 PM
Great band. Love Octopus. Need to listen to their self-titled more.
Title: Re: The Gentle Giant Discography: Gentle Giant (1970)
Post by: darkshade on June 26, 2016, 05:43:57 PM
I just may get on in this. I used to love GG when I was 18/19.
Title: Re: The Gentle Giant Discography: Gentle Giant (1970)
Post by: darkshade on June 27, 2016, 08:24:31 AM
I listened to the debut album last night, and man, I realized I probably only listened to this once or twice, like 9-10 years ago. This album is really good, and they only got better from here.
Title: The Gentle Giant Discography: Acquiring the Taste (1971)
Post by: Orbert on June 28, 2016, 05:12:28 PM
Gentle Giant's second album does everything you would expect the second album from an excellent band to do.  It takes whatever made the debut album great and goes a bit further with it, it refines some of the "rough edges" which are excusable on a debut album but unacceptable later, and it shows a marked increase in the quality of both writing and playing.

Kerry Minnear's classical training and flair for composition and arrangement really shine here.  Already one of the main writers, he quickly assumed the role of primary arranger as well.  His ability to blend Jazz, R&B, Medieval, Country, Baroque, and possibly a few other genres into something recognizable as Rock is unmatched.  Whereas the first album blended many styles but stayed pretty much in the R&B area, things are definitely more diverse here.

As with the first album, Acquiring the Taste was produced by Tony Visconti, later known for his work with David Bowie, The Moody Blues, Wings, and many others.  He does a remarkable job of reining in Gentle Giant's seeming obsession with playing as many instruments and as many styles as possible, and producing something that, for all of its weirdness and outrageousness, is still (relatively) accessible.  In other words, this is another classic prog rock album.

Acquiring the Taste (1971) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ODWYJyJh6cg&list=PLE2DE304D73ABF923)

(https://i.imgur.com/b7uupg8.jpg)

Gary Green: 6-string Electric Guitar, 12-string Electric Guitar, Mandolin, Bass, Donkey's Jawbone, Cat Calls, Voice
Kerry Minnear: Minimoog, Piano, Hammond Organ, Mellotron, Harpsichord, Electric Piano, Celeste, Clavichord, Xylophone, Vibraphone, Tympani, Cello, Maracas, Tambourine, Vocals
Derek Shulman: Alto Saxophone, Clavichord, Cowbell, Vocals
Phil Shulman: Clarinet, Trumpet, Alto & Tenor Saxophone, Piano, Claves, Maracas, Vocals
Ray Shulman: Bass, Violin, Viola, Electric Violin, Spanish Guitar, 12-string Guitars, Tambourine, Skulls, Organ Bass Pedals, Vocals
Martin Smith: Drums, Tambourine, Gong, Side Drum

----------

1 Pantagruel's Nativity (6:53) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ODWYJyJh6cg)
2 Edge of Twilight (3:51) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=myZzZeHJVek)
3 The House, the Street, the Room (6:05) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYU5GXb7xjU)
4 Acquiring the Taste (1:39) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3xKRi4IMF1w)
5 Wreck (4:39) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lMU_roRgHzg)
6 The Moon is Down (4:49) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvRd383NdiE)
7 Black Cat (3:54) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pGGKKjy04w8)
8 Plain Truth (7:36) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYfImJbmSjA)

Paul Cosh: Trumpet (track 3), Organ (track 3)
Tony Visconti: Descant Recorders (track 5), Treble Recorder (tracks 3, 5), Tenor Recorder (track 5), Bass Drum (track 7), Triangle (track 7)

----------

Pantagruel's Nativity (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ODWYJyJh6cg) opens the album with a mini-epic based on characters from the Gargantua and Pantagruel (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gargantua_and_Pantagruel) books by French author François Rabelais.  In some ways, Pantagruel, son of Gargantua, is "the gentle giant", something like a title character for the band.  He would return in other tracks on later albums.  The track itself wastes no time in weaving electronic keyboards and electric guitars with flutes, trumpet, saxophones, and tuned percussion.  You wanted more instrumental insanity from Gentle Giant?  You got it.  Still, this is somehow a relatively mellow tune.

Acquiring the Taste is Gentle Giant's most introspective, impressionistic album, sometimes downright dark, and Edge of Twilight (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=myZzZeHJVek) continues the theme.  Ray Shulman provides the acoustic guitar, and there is no electric guitar.  In fact, the album has individual track credits and includes the amusing "Gary Green – Didn't play on this one."

The House, the Street, the Room (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYU5GXb7xjU)  Gary gets his chance cut loose here, though we are first treated to an incredible break featuring horns, flutes, keyboards, pretty much everything.  I know I'm starting to repeat myself, but really, that was "business as usual" for early Gentle Giant.  Another spooky, creepy tune.

Acquiring the Taste (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3xKRi4IMF1w) is an instrumental composed, arranged, and performed by keyboardist Kerry Minnear.  It is a quartet in the Baroque style, with a modern, demented twist, performed on Moog synthesizers.  Some of that intentional dissonance from the first album is back.  Not a bad track by any means, but has something of an experimental feel (which admittedly it was) or maybe something like a compositional exercise.

Wreck (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lMU_roRgHzg) divides many Gentle Giant fans.  On this album, it's the closest thing to a "regular" song.  Pretty standard instrumentation (guitars, keyboards, bass, drums, with a little violin thrown in for flavor), and the song itself is in a basic A-A-B-A structure.  It's about a shipwreck, with the crew's chant of "Hey-yey-yey hold on!" serving as a refrain.  Derek's boistrous shout-singing is contrasted to Kerry's quiet tenor during the break, singing sweetly about how everyone dies and their loved ones will never see them again.  I did mention that this album could get rather dark.

The Moon is Down (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvRd383NdiE) features Phil and Derek on saxophones in a jazzy, noirish tune.  Again, a great buildup, moody lyrics, and a challenging instrumental break are all packed into a five-minute song that somehow seems longer.

Black Cat (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pGGKKjy04w8) features Phil Shuman on lead vocals, and I was surprised to learn that because I always thought it was Kerry Minnear.  This is another Minnear showpiece, with a string quartet (Ray and Kerry multitracked) woven with vibes and sparse percussion.  Phil's voice is somewhere between Derek's and Kerry's, probably closer to Kerry's with the lightness, but with some of the depth and strength normally associated with Derek.

Plain Truth (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYfImJbmSjA) is the rocker to close out the album, much as "Why Not?" closed out the first album.  It's another more-or-less straight-on rocker, except that it's also a showcase for Ray Shulman's electric violin madness, with a couple of extended breaks, just to keep you on your toes.  His improvisational style is... an acquired taste.  But this is Gentle Giant.  Each of these guys gets their time to show us what they've got, and this is Ray's.

----------

The full quote, referenced earlier in this thread, is from the liner notes for this, their second album:

"It is our goal to expand the frontiers of contemporary popular music at the risk of being very unpopular. We have recorded each composition with the one thought - that it should be unique, adventurous and fascinating. It has taken every shred of our combined musical and technical knowledge to achieve this. From the outset we have abandoned all preconceived thoughts of blatant commercialism. Instead we hope to give you something far more substantial and fulfilling. All you need to do is sit back, and acquire the taste."

At only 39:26, this was Gentle Giant's longest album.  But that was average for the time and Gentle Giant, unlike most other prog bands, was always about "quality over quantity".  As has been pointed out upthread already, they don't have any side-long epics.  Most of their songs don't break the five- or six-minute mark.  Gentle Giant instead seemed to focus on packing as much as possible into "normal-length" songs.  This is not to say that they wouldn't extend a section for effect, as with the electric violin solos in "Plain Truth".  But while with other prog bands, you sometimes think that they could've shortened up a section here or there, Gentle Giant pushed things in a different direction, combining as many different influences and instruments as possible.

The cover.  Ugh.  In 2005, it made Pitchfork Media's list of "The Worst Record Covers of All Time" and I can see why.  I think it's supposed to look like... well, you can see what it's supposed to look like, but as with the first album, the original gatefold opened vertically, and you can see that what we're actually "acquiring the taste" for is a peach or some other tasty fruit.  Okay.

(https://i.imgur.com/yIvWYaB.jpg)
Title: Re: The Gentle Giant Discography: Acquiring the Taste (1971)
Post by: splent on June 28, 2016, 09:03:44 PM
THat was the one album that we didn't do anything from. We did something from all the other albums...  and as a result this is the album I'm least familiar with. I'll have to give it a spin soon.
Title: Re: The Gentle Giant Discography: Acquiring the Taste (1971)
Post by: Orbert on June 28, 2016, 10:55:17 PM
Dude, this is my favorite from the early stuff!  It's consistent and weird and spooky and experimental and awesome.

By the way, for those who don't know, Splent sings (or did sing at one time) in a Gentle Giant tribute band, Gende's Giant (named for leader Mike Gende), who I've had the pleasure of seeing live.  That's kinda what we've been talking about, though a bit obliquely.  They're pretty damned good, considering that they've decided to cover one of the most challenging bands in the known universe.  They are even mentioned on the official Gentle Giant website (https://www.blazemonger.com/GG/Gende%27s_Giant).

(https://i.imgur.com/QhwGpXo.png)

Gende's Giant with Gary Green.  I was at this gig.  :biggrin:
Title: Re: The Gentle Giant Discography: Acquiring the Taste (1971)
Post by: Mladen on June 29, 2016, 01:50:06 AM
Their best album.  :hefdaddy
Title: Re: The Gentle Giant Discography: Acquiring the Taste (1971)
Post by: splent on June 29, 2016, 06:04:32 PM
Yep we are still technically on hiatus. Three Friends kinda bogarted everything. We do talk from time to time on fb, but the love of the music is still there and we still plan on starting things up again.
Title: Re: The Gentle Giant Discography: Acquiring the Taste (1971)
Post by: Mosh on June 29, 2016, 07:29:03 PM
The first track, wow! This is pretty much what I expected a band like Gentle Giant to sound like when I had first heard of them and saw a description of what they sound like. The blending of different genres, the sudden shifts in instrumentation, and of course the vocal harmonies (though it is a bit understated on this track). Really cool tune.

Listening to this album, I keep thinking of a quote from Frank Zappa's book. The one where he talks about how you could put a simple straight 8th note beat (you know the one) under any style of music and it'll automatically be considered rock music, even if nothing else about it is stylistically rock. I could be totally off here, as this is the first time I've ever heard this album and I'm not listening too intently, but it sounds like the quote applies here. Aside from the (almost infrequent) rock beats and some bluesy guitar licks, this barely seems like rock music. I'm thinking of the harmony in particular, which is clearly drawing from classical music. It's like chamber music arranged for a (mostly) rock instrumentation. Two things in particular made me notice this:

1: It seems like there's almost no unison playing on this album. If a part is being doubled, it's usually doubled in octaves, which is typical for chamber music. There are never unisons in chamber music.


2: They seem to avoid power chord movements. In classical harmony it's called parallel fifths and is generally frowned upon, but pretty common in rock music.

Really enjoyed this album.
Title: Re: The Gentle Giant Discography: Acquiring the Taste (1971)
Post by: Orbert on June 30, 2016, 07:26:03 AM
It's like chamber music arranged for a (mostly) rock instrumentation.

That's exactly what I think of when I think of early Gentle Giant.  It's as you said, grounded with the Rock/R&B backbeat, but Minnear's training and background is all Classical.  Throw in some trumpet, flute, and saxophones, and I don't even know what you'd call it.  What they do here feels like they're still "learning how to rock".  Or maybe that's not even the point, rocking that is.  They're really blending all these styles together just because they can, and it's cool to do.
Title: Re: The Gentle Giant Discography: Gentle Giant (1970)
Post by: pain of occupation on July 01, 2016, 02:17:24 PM
...Gentle Giant clearly did not give a damn whether they achieved any commercial success.  They were in it for the music.  I always thought that that was pretty obvious, and that's one of the things I love about them.  It was always on their terms, popularity be damned...

I was attempting to get into GG a year+ ago, and went through the GG thread on the forum here...I thought there was some consensus that they derailed a bit on the last two albums(?) and were trying to breakthrough with some mainer streamer success, despite their mission statement that they were in it to "expand the frontiers of contemporary popular music at the risk of becoming very unpopular".

anywho, i'm happy this thread has come into existence  :corn
Title: Re: The Gentle Giant Discography: Acquiring the Taste (1971)
Post by: Orbert on July 01, 2016, 02:39:20 PM
The mission statement was written by a young band just starting out, naive and idealistic.  It's the type of thing I would've eaten up when I was that age.  Now... it's seems naive and idealistic.  The goal of recording your music is still to hopefully sell some of it.  You cannot change the face of anything if no one even knows you exist.  As time went on, it became clear to them that they could stick to their guns and do whatever the hell they wanted, and continue to never play for more than a few hundred people at a time, or maybe channel some of their considerable talent into music that they were still proud of, but which was more accessible, and achieve something like success.  The last few albums were practically by a different band, but with the same personnel.

But as we'll see, it wasn't as abrupt a change as some would make it out to be, accessibility is not a dirty word, and they kept the intensity and high level of musicianship, writing, and arranging all the way to the end.  Most bands, especially prog bands, change over the course of their careers, some quite drastically.  Gentle Giant is one of those bands.
Title: Re: The Gentle Giant Discography: Acquiring the Taste (1971)
Post by: NoseofNicko on July 02, 2016, 12:52:01 AM
Listened to the self-titled and Acquiring the Taste a lot this week and now I think they're really great. I might like Acquiring the Taste even more than Octopus.
Title: Re: The Gentle Giant Discography: Acquiring the Taste (1971)
Post by: Orbert on July 02, 2016, 06:59:10 AM
I had some trouble with the first two albums for a long time.  I came to Gentle Giant in the middle.  The Free Hand, Power and the Glory era.  So these early albums which were so much more adventurous, more challenging to the listener, I wasn't ready for them.  They were just too "out there".  But after giving them each several critical listens, I've gotten to really like them.  That tends to happen when I do these discographies.
Title: Re: The Gentle Giant Discography: Acquiring the Taste (1971)
Post by: jammindude on July 02, 2016, 11:06:25 PM
I listened to AtT on You Tube today and I LOVED it.   It inspired me to finally pick up that Steven Wilson remix of Octopus today on my CD haul.    That will give me a chance to spin it (and maybe even find time to listen to the 5.1) before the discussion.
Title: Re: The Gentle Giant Discography: Acquiring the Taste (1971)
Post by: Cyclopssss on July 03, 2016, 02:33:35 AM
Not to run ahead of things, but Octopus is really good.
Title: The Gentle Giant Discography: Three Friends (1972)
Post by: Orbert on July 04, 2016, 12:11:40 PM
After Acquiring the Taste, drummer Martin Smith, who had been with the Shulman brothers since the days of Simon Dupree and the Big Sound, got into a argument with them which resulted in him leaving the band.  Malcolm Mortimore, who had played with Arthur Brown and Ian Dury, was brought in to play drums on Three Friends.  He had the perhaps unenviable role of having to bring some sense of order to Gentle Giant's unique brand of instrumental insanity, but as it happens, his job was made somewhat easier by the particular material on this, the third album.

Three Friends is a concept album, but a very basic one.  Whereas most "story" concept albums have a greater-than-average number of tracks, fleshing out the story in various scenes and often with instrumental links, Three Friends is a relatively simple concept.  Three boys, friends since schooldays, grow up and head into the world and into three very different careers.  After a prologue and a look at their schooldays, each gets his own song, then there is an epilogue.  Where most concept albums are longer, often double LP or even double CD, this is a single disk, actually one of Gentle Giant's shorter albums.

The six tracks are generally more straightforward structurally than material on previous Gentle Giant albums.  They pare away some of the excess, some of the sense of "doing it because we can", and the ideas are condensed into more fully realized songs, often with more standard instrumentation, but still with occassional appearances of the brass, winds, strings, and tuned percussion.

Three Friends (1972) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ikcYQqMobM&list=PLOJNB1mVI-VLRuDq824Z6pojjky6PfR6k&index=1)

(https://i.imgur.com/ddSKlCX.jpg)
Front Cover

(https://i.imgur.com/cr3pBM2.jpg)
Back Cover

(https://i.imgur.com/xibJ2IC.jpg)
Inner Gatefold


Gary Green: Guitars, Percussion
Kerry Minnear: Keyboards, Vibraphones, Percussion, Vocals
Malcolm Mortimore: Drums
Derek Shulman: Vocals
Phil Shulman: Saxophone, Vocals
Ray Shulman: Bass, Violin, 12-string Guitar, Vocals

----------

1 Prologue (6:14) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ikcYQqMobM)
2 Schooldays (7:37) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XQgVxL6-fE)
3 Working All Day (5:11) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYQbnMfD5Gg)
4 Peel the Paint (7:30) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZiar8vvylg)
5 Mister Class and Quality? (5:50) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUWH91zRyAA)
6 Three Friends (3:02) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZvJtwl1jjM)

----------

The first album started with a very slow fade up, which finally let loose in a blazing, stop-time opening song.  The second album started with a whimsical synthesizer lick which eventually gave way to the opening track proper. Prologue (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ikcYQqMobM) opens the third album with a driving unison riff.  There's a sense of building, a sense of anticipation.  It eventually yields to a bridge section, then returns to the main theme before fading out.  It feels a bit inconclusive and you're left unsatisfied, wanting more, but as this is the Prologue, perhaps that's the whole point.

The concept for Three Friends came from eldest brother Phil Shulman, and he provides the brief lead vocals.

Three friends are made, three lives are laughs and tears
Through years of school and play they share
As time stands still the days change into years
And future comes without a care.
But fate and skill and chances play their part
The wind of change leaves no good-bye
Three boys are men their ways have drawn apart
They tell their tales to justify.


Schooldays (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XQgVxL6-fE) features Phil and Kerry (the "soft voices") in what would become a Gentle Giant trademark: an intricate vocal arrangement.  The whimsical melody on the vibes and guitar reflects the carefree exhuberence of youth, and eventually it leads into an instrumental representing the growing complexities of life.  Acoustic piano also features heavily here, so this is something of a showcase for keyboardist/vibraphonist Kerry Minnear.

Working All Day (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYQbnMfD5Gg) is the story of one of the three friends, who becomes a manual laborer, "digging up the roads".  He works hard, but he makes a decent living and has no regrets.  Musically, the main hook is doubled on saxophones, eventually laying a "bed" over which the Hammond organ takes an extended solo.

The second of the three friends becomes an artist, a painter whose story is told in Peel the Paint (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZiar8vvylg).  It's something of a two-part song, with the first, lighter part sung by Phil, and the second, more rocking part sung by Derek.  The main riff of the second part is one of Gentle Giant's heaviest riffs, and Gary Green finally gets his chance to cut loose on the guitar, breaking into an extended solo accompanied only by drummer Malcolm Mortimore, who does an excellent job somehow keeping time and himself soloing at the same time (although it's not really a solo as it's a duet between guitar and drums.  Trust me, it works better than it sounds like it should).

Our third friend becomes a successful businessman, with the nice house, nice car, and pretty wife, but is he truly Mister Class and Quality? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUWH91zRyAA)  The instrumental break here is of the type which is my favorite from Gentle Giant.  It's an extended jam, often with complex rhythmic interplay between the instruments, and some but not necessarily a lot of soloing.  The focus is on the band, the ensemble, rocking out and laying it down as only Gentle Giant can.

Three Friends (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZvJtwl1jjM) isn't really the "conclusion", it's more of an epilogue.  There's no reunion where they get together and discuss their lives, their differences, and what they still might have in common.  It's the shortest track on the album (the tracking is wrong on some LP and CD pressings, incorrectly having "Three Friends" start partway through "Mister Class and Quality?"), merely a statement that three friends have gone onto their disparate lives, each with their own happiness and, sometimes, sadness.  But it's done via a multipart choral section, sounding like a choir.  A rock choir.  Still, if they were going for a "big ending", it doesn't quite come across here.  The shortest song on such a short album, it feels like it could have, should have done more.

----------

Musically, this is the most accessible Gentle Giant album yet.  That's neither good nor bad; it's just how it is.  With fewer tracks and a deliberate choice to tell a story, often through the music, it's the easiest one to put on and just let it play.  While there is plenty of the trademark Gentle Giant odd instrumentation, it's used much more organically, and while all very impressive, there aren't as many "wait... what was that?" moments as on the first two albums.

Again, this is neither good nor bad.  I like a good challenge, hearing how far you can take things and still call it Rock and Roll, but sometimes it's nice to just put on some tunes and let them rock you.  The saxes double key riffs, providing strength and color.  The vibes show up often enough to not feel out of place, but rather a part of the band's sound.  When the strings come in, it's dramatic and perfect for the moment; the difference is that most bands don't play their own violins and cellos on their albums.  Gentle Giant does.  Sometimes you'll hear a choir on a prog album, but it's usually not the band itself.  With Gentle Giant, it is.  They're still unique in what they play, what they put on their albums, they've just found a way to make things a bit more "normal".  At least on this album.
Title: Re: The Gentle Giant Discography: Three Friends (1972)
Post by: Orbert on July 04, 2016, 01:05:17 PM
Oh Yeah, the Cover

This was the first Gentle Giant originally released in the U.S. as well as the U.K., and the U.S. pressings re-used the cover of the first album rather than the original artwork.  Some CDs also use this.

(https://i.imgur.com/OC2kZQ3.png])

At least they took the concept all the way and did the foldout properly.

(https://i.imgur.com/PECvMsl.png])
Title: Re: The Gentle Giant Discography: Three Friends (1972)
Post by: splent on July 04, 2016, 01:15:18 PM
Mr Class and Quality/three friends was a beast of a song to perform
Title: Re: The Gentle Giant Discography: Three Friends (1972)
Post by: The King in Crimson on July 04, 2016, 01:25:31 PM
This is the first Gentle Giant album that I've heard in the thread. It was also the very first GG album I ever listened to as a whole. It is also, in my opinion, both the worst and the best album to use to introduce someone to GG with. The worst in that, from what I've heard, it's much more straightforward and rocking that other GG albums and it doesn't give much of an idea of how the band really sounds (if this is incorrect, bear in mind I've only listened to Three Friends, Octopus, The Power and the Glory, and In A Glass House, and Three Friends doesn't sound much like any of the others). But it's also the best in that it's not as 'weird' as some of the other GG albums; it's rocking and unique, but not too unique.

Personally, I really like this album. The Gentle Giant influences are there and very apparent but they're not overpowering and I like how it mixes with the more rock-based sound and structure. The album also makes great use of the different vocal styles that each singer utilized, giving each song its own style and personality. The solo on "Peel The Paint" is just amazing. One of my favorite solo sections of all time.

If I had any criticisms of this album it's that both "Prologue" and "Three Friends" are clearly overshadowed by the middle songs on the album. They don't do a very good job of closing or opening the album, though I do like "Prologue." Also, as I said earlier, it's not a very good representation of GG's overall sound and can give a new listener a very... uh "unclear" idea of what GG are supposed to sound like. I can remember liking Three Friends and then getting, I think, In A Glass House and being like "da fuq is this?" on my first listen.  :lol
Title: Re: The Gentle Giant Discography: Three Friends (1972)
Post by: NoseofNicko on July 04, 2016, 05:14:37 PM
Bought Three Friends recently. Another great album. Gentle Giant is slowly becoming one of my favorite prog rock bands.
Title: Re: The Gentle Giant Discography: Three Friends (1972)
Post by: Orbert on July 04, 2016, 10:03:13 PM
Mr Class and Quality/three friends was a beast of a song to perform

I have to admit, when I saw you guys, I wasn't as familiar with the early stuff as I am now.  I was almost strictly a middle-period guy, with some familiarity with the later stuff, and basically the first album.  The other early stuff, I had in my collection, but they didn't get spun as much.  So I don't specifically remember you guys doing these two, but I'm sure they were great.  I was impressed by everything you did.

This is the first Gentle Giant album that I've heard in the thread. It was also the very first GG album I ever listened to as a whole. It is also, in my opinion, both the worst and the best album to use to introduce someone to GG with. The worst in that, from what I've heard, it's much more straightforward and rocking that other GG albums and it doesn't give much of an idea of how the band really sounds (if this is incorrect, bear in mind I've only listened to Three Friends, Octopus, The Power and the Glory, and In A Glass House, and Three Friends doesn't sound much like any of the others). But it's also the best in that it's not as 'weird' as some of the other GG albums; it's rocking and unique, but not too unique.

Personally, I really like this album. The Gentle Giant influences are there and very apparent but they're not overpowering and I like how it mixes with the more rock-based sound and structure. The album also makes great use of the different vocal styles that each singer utilized, giving each song its own style and personality. The solo on "Peel The Paint" is just amazing. One of my favorite solo sections of all time.

If I had any criticisms of this album it's that both "Prologue" and "Three Friends" are clearly overshadowed by the middle songs on the album. They don't do a very good job of closing or opening the album, though I do like "Prologue." Also, as I said earlier, it's not a very good representation of GG's overall sound and can give a new listener a very... uh "unclear" idea of what GG are supposed to sound like. I can remember liking Three Friends and then getting, I think, In A Glass House and being like "da fuq is this?" on my first listen.  :lol

I basically agree with all of this.  The concept is sound, but overall I think the presentation was a bit on the weak side, especially the prologue and epilogue.  I also agree that while this is one of the most accessible GG albums, that's a mixed blessing, since it's not exactly representative of their sound.  Actually, strike that.  It's representative of their sound, but not really their style as a whole.  It's only one side of it.

Oddly enough, I always recommend Free Hand as a starter, as it too reins in the extracurricular weirdness and condenses their sound into some tightly packed jams.  And I love those Gentle Giant rhythm jams.  Also, Free Hand was my starting point, and it worked very well for me.  I was able to move to the later material without a lot of trouble (unlike many hardcore fans), and moving forward was more challenging, but also more rewarding.  So I guess the one I recommend actually has the same potential downside as this one.  But you do have to start somewhere, and to be blunt, some people can't handle the craziness of those first two albums and would get scared off.

Bought Three Friends recently. Another great album. Gentle Giant is slowly becoming one of my favorite prog rock bands.

:tup
Title: Re: The Gentle Giant Discography: Three Friends (1972)
Post by: splent on July 04, 2016, 11:39:40 PM
There are a few vids of us on YouTube (God that was 7 years ago) but here's us doing Giant.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Vduf0m_aqrk

Many people were critical of my singing and so I avoid the comments. My voice isn't as strong as Derek's, it's not really that voice type; it's more like Kerry's, so when we did a piece that featured his singing that was a lot easier for me (like a reunion, proclamation, funny ways...).

I'll post more when you get to those albums.
Title: Re: The Gentle Giant Discography: Three Friends (1972)
Post by: Cyclopssss on July 05, 2016, 03:42:12 AM
As a former 'amateur' drummer, I must say, the drumming overall is fantastic. Very groovy, even in the complex parts.
Title: Re: The Gentle Giant Discography: Three Friends (1972)
Post by: Mladen on July 05, 2016, 03:55:55 AM
I love the opening song. I got slightly tired of the rest of the album, but it actually used to be my favorite one.
Title: Re: The Gentle Giant Discography: Three Friends (1972)
Post by: Orbert on July 05, 2016, 12:33:38 PM
The vocals are incredibly demanding, and I think you did a great job. :tup Screw the haters.  You guys rocked this song!

I think this was at that same gig, wasn't it?  The split show with Silverpipe?
Title: Re: The Gentle Giant Discography: Three Friends (1972)
Post by: splent on July 05, 2016, 01:26:11 PM
The vocals are incredibly demanding, and I think you did a great job. :tup Screw the haters.  You guys rocked this song!

I think this was at that same gig, wasn't it?  The split show with Silverpipe?

Yes. We only did 3 or 4 gigs as a band and most of them were in Milwaukee at Shank Hall.
Title: Re: The Gentle Giant Discography: Three Friends (1972)
Post by: Mosh on July 05, 2016, 07:55:05 PM
I really enjoyed this one. Hearing this really shows how much of an influence they had on Neal Morse. Lots of stuff in both the vocal and instrumental sections that would become Spock's Beard trademarks.
Title: Re: The Gentle Giant Discography: Three Friends (1972)
Post by: splent on July 05, 2016, 08:04:55 PM
I really enjoyed this one. Hearing this really shows how much of an influence they had on Neal Morse. Lots of stuff in both the vocal and instrumental sections that would become Spock's Beard trademarks.

That becomes even more apparent in upcoming albums.
Title: Re: The Gentle Giant Discography: Three Friends (1972)
Post by: Orbert on July 11, 2016, 08:41:20 PM
Final notes on Three Friends

Three Friends was distributed in the United States by Columbia Records, who spent a lot of money promoting "their" new act.  Columbia also had Black Sabbath at the time, and because record company suits are often complete idiots, someone came up with the brilliant idea to have Gentle Giant be the supporting act on the impending Black Sabbath tour.

The results of course were disastrous.  No one had heard of Gentle Giant, and Black Sabbath fans had no patience for this bizarre mix of medieval, blues, classical, folk, and whatever else Gentle Giant is and was.  Gentle Giant were used to people not quite understanding what they were all about, but Black Sabbath fans booed them off the stage more than once.

Fortunately, Ian Anderson happened to be at one of these shows, and arranged for Gentle Giant to open for Jethro Tull on their next U.S. tour.  The two bands had more similarities in terms of style and presentation, and it was certainly a much better fit.  Presumably, Gentle Giant's limited popularity at this time was due more to their support of Jethro Tull than to converting Black Sabbath fans.
Title: Re: The Gentle Giant Discography: Three Friends (1972)
Post by: Big Hath on July 11, 2016, 09:34:11 PM
someone came up with the brilliant idea to have Gentle Giant be the supporting act on the impending Black Sabbath tour.

W. T. F.
Title: The Gentle Giant Discography: Octopus (1973)
Post by: Orbert on July 11, 2016, 10:12:03 PM
As they were preparing for the Three Friends tour, drummer Malcolm Mortimore was seriously injured in a motorcycle accident and unable to play for several weeks.  John Weathers was brought in to play for the tour, and eventually was asked to stay on permanently.  Mortimore had a great deal of finesse and subtlety, which worked well with Gentle Giant, but Weathers had a more dynamic approach which provided the power and contrast that they were looking for at the time.  Also, he actually looked like the band mascot.

(https://i.imgur.com/oxknVGX.gif) (https://i.imgur.com/8iyZBie.png)

The new album was originally going to be another concept album.  There would be one track for each member of the band, the instrumental "The Boys in the Band" for the group as a whole, and "Dog's Life" was for the roadies, with whom they worked very closely and for whom they had great respect.  Eventually the concept was abandoned.

According to the story, Phil Shulman's wife Roberta came up with the title as a pun on "octo opus" -- eight musical works.

The album was released in the U.K. with a striking cover painting by Roger Dean, who was starting to gain popularity due to his work with Yes.  As with Three Friends, a different cover was chosen for the U.S. release, for reasons unknown.

Octopus (1973) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2M3Rm44VOEM&list=PLOJNB1mVI-VLF660wIGA6Akr3jMNdjW00)

(https://i.imgur.com/2kfgI6O.jpg)
Original U.K. Release
(click for full painting) (https://imgur.com/X5er3Ah.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/myVfvEy.jpg)
U.S. Release


Gary Green: Electric Guitars, Percussion
Kerry Minnear: Piano, Hammond Organ, Minimoog, Electric Piano, Mellotron, Clavinet, Harpsichord, Regal, Vibraphone, Cello, Percussion, Lead Vocals, Backing Vocals
Derek Shulman: Lead Vocals, Alto Saxophone
Phil Shulman: Trumpet, Tenor Saxophone, Mellophone, Lead Vocals, Backing Vocals
Ray Shulman: Bass, Violin, Viola, Electric Violin, Acoustic Guitar, Percussion, Backing Vocals
John Weathers: Drums, Bongos, Varispeed Cymbal, Xylophone

----------

1 The Advent Of Panurge (4:40) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2M3Rm44VOEM&list=PLOJNB1mVI-VLF660wIGA6Akr3jMNdjW00)
2 Raconteur Troubadour (3:59) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_O7H1ylocZY)
3 A Cry For Everyone (4:02) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQ7aam-rBcE)
4 Knots (4:09) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hDBzTP78_8o)
5 The Boys In The Band (4:32) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13cGEv7GUq8)
6 Dog's Life (3:10) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dp49pYVFJF0)
7 Think Of Me With Kindness (3:33) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ulIigrwFPNc)
8 River (5:54) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9ZeRLByUz4)

----------

The pattern of each Gentle Giant album having its own character, even to the point of starting differently, continues.  The words and music for The Advent Of Panurge (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2M3Rm44VOEM) start immediately, with no introduction of any kind.  In fact, almost every song on Octopus starts abruptly and has a definitive ending as opposed to fading out.  This gives the album a very concise, immediate feel.  Gentle Giant continued to condense their music, the sprawling, experimental works of the early albums were already a distant memory, replaced by complex, often polyrhythmic arrangements flaunting a different side of their musicianship.

Panurge is another character from the work of Francois Rabelais.  Continuing the story of Pantagruel started with "Pantagruel's Nativity" from Acquiring the Taste, here we meet Panurge, who becomes Pantagruel's close friend and lifelong companion.  I've never reads the books upon which the lyrics are based, but the lyrics are said to be very close, quite faithful to the stories told in the books.

Raconteur Troubadour (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_O7H1ylocZY) dives deep into the medieval genre in both meter and instrumentation, then of course takes a left turn into modern prog for a spell, before concluding.  At only four minutes, it's a deceptively complex piece.  But then, that can be said of nearly every Gentle Giant song.  These are, once again, rather short, concise compositions.

The lyrics to A Cry For Everyone (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQ7aam-rBcE) are somewhat nihilistic, inspired by the literature and philosophy of Albert Camus, but it's a rocker from start to finish.  Another four-minute gem.

Knots (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hDBzTP78_8o) is, in some ways, the quintessential Gentle Giant song, intricately weaving vocal and instrumental parts as only Gentle Giant can.  When later prog bands such as Spock's Beard cite the Gentle Giant influence in their vocal arrangements, this is the song they're thinking of.  According to the liner notes: "R.D. Laing, an eminent psychologist, has stimulated us by his intriguing, logical, poetic riddles into composing this latter-day madrigal - and something of a musical jigsaw."  That description tells you almost nothing about the musical work, but once you've heard it, come back to the description and see how perfectly it fits.

As mentioned earlier, The Boys In The Band (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13cGEv7GUq8) is an instrumental, meant to showcase each member of the band.  In the original concept, this song was for Gentle Giant as a whole, including engineer Martin Rushant who provides the laugh and coin spin which starts the track.

Dog's Life (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dp49pYVFJF0) "A backhanded tribute to our roadies; our musical parody could only be drawn to a wily old dog. Surely two more unmatched sounds as the Regal (a medieval reed organ) and string section could not be found, but they seem to successfully convey the whine of both dog and roadie."  Gentle Giant freely admit that they sometimes combine sounds that should not work together, and make them work.  This is one of those times.  And as applicable as the description is, the big surprise is that this is actually a nice little song, one of the more melodic pieces on the album.

Think Of Me With Kindness (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ulIigrwFPNc) is the Kerry ballad on this album, a personal song delivered in his sweet tenor, with a nice mellophone solo by Phil.  The arrangement is kept simple, as befitting the topic and the mood.

River (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9ZeRLByUz4) closes the album with a rocker, but it's an offbeat experimental rocker.  The Varispeed cymbals, with effects, evoke rushing water, while the pitch-bending guitar and violin give things a dirty, backwoods feeling.  Derek provides the main vocal, with Phil providing the contrasting voice during the bridge.

----------

After all this time, and even after growing up during the 70's, it still surprises me sometimes how short albums were back then.  At 35 minutes, this was toward the shorter side of average, but only by a little.  Of course, bands usually released one, sometimes two albums per year back then.  So compared to nowadays, it works out about the same.  Albums are twice as long now, but bands usually only release new albums every two years or so.

But Gentle Giant were always a different sort of prog band.  Where most prog bands were by this time starting to spread things out and experiment with longer songs with multiple movements, Gentle Giant went the other way.  Their compositions were dense, packing a lot of music into relatively short tunes, but still with tastes of various genres, their signature ecletic instrumentation and odd time signatures, and impeccable arrangements.  Even as I write this, it strikes me that I think of Gentle Giant tunes as "compositions" rather than "songs".  Obviously, they're both, but there's so much going on, so much work has clearly gone into these eight songs, that they truly are eight works of art.  Eight musical works, an oct-opus.

Gentle Giant only existed for ten years, during which time they released 11 studio albums and one live album, so we're already into "the middle period".  The strings, saxophones, and brass appear a bit less frequently, and the songs are more concise.  Many fans cite Octopus as their favorite, and it's easy to see (and hear) why.  Every song carries a punch, starts and stops on a dime, makes its statement and leaves.  The sole exception is Kerry Minnear's ballad, which provides a beautiful contrast and a much-needed break.

My college roommate and I dug into the Gentle Giant back catalog the best we could.  In 1980, there was no Internet, no real way to know exactly what was out there, but he happened to find a Columbia release of Octopus with the "octopus in a jar" cover.  The cool thing was that the record jacket was contoured; the edges followed the odd curves of the side of the jar.  Probably a collector's item now, but I happen to know he sold it long ago.
Title: Re: The Gentle Giant Discography: Octopus (1973)
Post by: Kwyjibo on July 13, 2016, 02:51:05 AM
As I mentioned before this is so far the only Gentle Giant record in my collection and I'm still in the phase of getting to know them. I like it quite good but it's not that easy to get into them, there's just so much going on.

So far the first three tracks are my favorites and I'm always suprised how complex but relatively short these songs are. After listening to Advent Of Panurge I feel like a ten-minute song has passed, but it's only four and a half. Same with Raconteur Troubadour, the more "simple" rocker Cry For Everyone is a welcome change of pace. The rest of the songs sound good but need definitely more spins to really know and appreciate them.

Their compositions were dense, packing a lot of music into relatively short tunes, but still with tastes of various genres, their signature ecletic instrumentation and odd time signatures, and impeccable arrangements.  Even as I write this, it strikes me that I think of Gentle Giant tunes as "compositions" rather than "songs".  Obviously, they're both, but there's so much going on, so much work has clearly gone into these eight songs, that they truly are eight works of art.  Eight musical works, an oct-opus.

These song are truly "compositions", they are (probably) not written by jamming in a studio and coming up with ideas and then developing them into songs but by carefully composing all the notes for the different lines and instruments, trying to find something that is complex yet works when played together, each melody and rhythm complementing each other.
Title: Re: The Gentle Giant Discography: Octopus (1973)
Post by: Orbert on July 13, 2016, 06:56:30 AM
It's a bit of both, just taken farther than most bands take them.  Whereas many bands start by jamming, then fleshing out the ideas into songs, Gentle Giant usually starts with the basic song already written.  Then they play with it, and as they come up with things, the added parts are also carefully worked out.  Some parts you can tell were written and arranged beforehand, usually Kerry's stuff.  The Shulmans were more straight-up rockers.  But all of these guys were such amazing musicians that I'm sure they came up with some of this stuff on the fly, stuff you'd swear they had to have worked out ahead of time.

Ray once said that they constantly mess with the songs and arrangements.  The studio version of the song is what it started as, the live version is a snapshot of what it sounded like at that time.  Derek said that the studio version is just the blueprint, the live version is more the finished product.  Various bootlegs reveal that some songs changed quite a bit when they started playing them live, and some even continued to change over time.  So they were both right in a way.  When we get to the live album, we'll see how much things change, as well as a look at why.
Title: Re: The Gentle Giant Discography: Octopus (1973)
Post by: splent on July 13, 2016, 09:36:14 AM
This album is brilliant. It's also a challenge to learn and play. We did Think of Me With Kindness and A Cry for Everyone. During rehearsal we often joked about learning Knots, since that is arguably their most challenging song to perform (we never got started learning that one :lol). We had music transcribed by Phil Smith, who is a beast at arranging this music, and he played primary keys for us. I often had to drive about 45 min from rehearsals since the main guy in the band lived in the southern Chicago suburbs (Lockport) and I lived in the west/nw suburbs (Addison at the time). Phil is from Milwaukee, but made the rehearsals every week. THAT'S dedication!

Here's us doing Think of Me With Kindness:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EOv99JY9B-g
Title: Re: The Gentle Giant Discography: Octopus (1973)
Post by: Mladen on July 13, 2016, 11:50:42 AM
Another good album. A Cry for everyone is a great rocker with a short but memorable keyboard solo, Knots is a classic and a masterpiece (you're right, Orbert, that's a fantastic description), and Think of me with kindness is a hidden gem, a warm ballad with a beautiful little theme.
Title: Re: The Gentle Giant Discography: Octopus (1973)
Post by: Orbert on July 13, 2016, 12:12:47 PM
For those interested, here are the lyrics to "Knots":

All in all each man in all men
All men in each man.
He can see she can't, she can see
  she can
see whatever, whatever.
You may know what I don't know,
  but not that
I don't know it and I can't tell you
so you will.
To tell me all man in all men
All men in each man.
He can see she can't, she can see
  she can
see whatever, whatever.
You may know what I don't know,
  but not that
I don't know it and I can't tell you
so you will have to tell me all.
It hurts him to think that she is
hurting her by him being hurt to think
that she thinks he is hurt by making her
feel guilty at hurting him by her thinking
she wants him to want her.  Her wants
  her to
want him to get him to want him to get
him to want her she pretends.
He tries to make her afraid by not
being afraid. (permutations)
You may know what I don't know, but not
that I don't know it and I can't
tell you so you will have to tell
me all.
I get what I deserve.  I deserve what I
get.  I have it so I deserve it. I deserve
it for I have it.  I get what I deserve.
What I deserve - what I deserve what
  I get.
I have it so I deserve.
He tries to make her afraid by not
being afraid.

----------

I've done the thing where I read the lyrics as I'm listening to the song a couple of times.  It helps understand the song a little.  But it's not really supposed to make literal sense, not like most song lyrics.  It's just an exercise.  Once again, Gentle Giant getting all musically psycho on us because they can.
Title: Re: The Gentle Giant Discography: Octopus (1973)
Post by: Podaar on July 14, 2016, 03:17:07 PM
Just chiming in to say that I'm still listening while reading. Thanks Orbert, I'm really enjoying this thread!
Title: Re: The Gentle Giant Discography: Octopus (1973)
Post by: Orbert on July 14, 2016, 03:37:47 PM
Thanks, Podaar, good to know.  I know that Gentle Giant is one of the lesser-known prog bands, and I kinduv imagine people listening to some of this stuff for the first time, and literally having no idea what to say about it.  It's very dense, complex, insane music, so if people forget to come back here and comment, I understand.  GG takes many, many listens to grok in fullness.
Title: Re: The Gentle Giant Discography: Octopus (1973)
Post by: Cyclopssss on July 14, 2016, 05:04:59 PM
I´m still listening also. Discovering some awesome music!
Title: Re: The Gentle Giant Discography: Octopus (1973)
Post by: jammindude on July 15, 2016, 07:53:16 AM
Finally listened to Steven Wilson's remix on the way to work this morning. I really love this album! Is there anyone here that can draw a comparison between Steven Wilson's remix and the original mix? Since I've never heard the original it might be interesting to hear the thoughts from someone who is familiar with both.
Title: Re: The Gentle Giant Discography: Octopus (1973)
Post by: Orbert on July 15, 2016, 10:24:47 AM
I've been tempted to pick it up, but so far I have not.  The reason is that of the eight tracks, they could only find the original multitracks for five of them; the other three tracks were processed from 2.0 into 5.1 via software.  From what I've heard, the 5.1 mixes are great, on par with everything else Steven does.  I have all of his Yes 5.1's of course, and the ELP ones as well, and I'm sure they're great.  But it would feel like only 5/8 of the album is "really" 5.1, the rest is "fake".
Title: Re: The Gentle Giant Discography: Octopus (1973)
Post by: Mosh on July 16, 2016, 09:44:18 AM
Thanks, Podaar, good to know.  I know that Gentle Giant is one of the lesser-known prog bands, and I kinduv imagine people listening to some of this stuff for the first time, and literally having no idea what to say about it.  It's very dense, complex, insane music, so if people forget to come back here and comment, I understand.  GG takes many, many listens to grok in fullness.
Pretty much my experience so far, not a lot to say but I'm enjoying every album. Definitely heightened my appreciation for this band already.

Octopus is the one I was familiar with already. I remember checking it out because of the cover, it looked like the covers for my favorite Yes albums so it had to be proggy and awesome. Needless to say, it was nothing like Yes. The first thing that really struck me was how short the songs were. I think at the time I was more interested in the long works like Close To the Edge and had a hard time wrapping my head around these shorter songs. They're so dense, it's like they packed the same information in a 4 minute song as Yes did in a 20 minute song. So it was (and still is) difficult to process. I didn't hate it, but I also didn't really get it and didn't bother much with GG after that.

Listening to it now I can appreciate it more as I've figured out their sound a bit after listening to the other albums and reading Orbert's notes with them.

Knots is very reminiscent of Spock's Beard indeed.
Title: Re: The Gentle Giant Discography: Octopus (1973)
Post by: Orbert on July 16, 2016, 10:50:12 AM
When I first started getting into Spock's Beard and heard stuff like Gibberish and Thoughts, I said to myself "Somebody listened to a lot of Gentle Giant when they were growing up".  The way the parts bounce off of each other and intertwine, both instrumental and vocal parts.  This was in the 90's.  I first got into Gentle Giant back in the 70's when I was in high school and starting to get into composing and arranging music, and it was so unique to hear counterpoint, madrigal, fugue, and other classic musical structures being applied to rock music.  As an aspiring rock musician, I couldn't help but be amazed and influenced by that, and I'm sure Neal was the same.
Title: Re: The Gentle Giant Discography: Octopus (1973)
Post by: jammindude on July 16, 2016, 01:51:13 PM
Thanks, Podaar, good to know.  I know that Gentle Giant is one of the lesser-known prog bands, and I kinduv imagine people listening to some of this stuff for the first time, and literally having no idea what to say about it.  It's very dense, complex, insane music, so if people forget to come back here and comment, I understand.  GG takes many, many listens to grok in fullness.

 :hat
Title: Re: The Gentle Giant Discography: Octopus (1973)
Post by: Orbert on July 16, 2016, 06:57:27 PM
In fullness, baby.
Title: The Gentle Giant Discography: In a Glass House (1973)
Post by: Orbert on July 19, 2016, 06:28:05 PM
After the Octopus tour, eldest brother Phil Shulman decided to leave the band and return to teaching full-time.  10 years older than Derek and twelve years older than Ray, he alone was married and had children, and since Gentle Giant were not exactly rock superstars, it made sense for him to choose a more stable career.  His departure was amicable.  The band assured him that should he ever wish to return, if only for a single show or tour, that he was welcome, but he never did.  Phil is therefore the only Shulman brother to leave the music industry.  As previously noted, Derek is now an executive (Dream Theater, Pantera, Cinderella, Bon Jovi, etc.), and Ray is a producer (The Sugarcubes, The Sundays, Ian McCullough, etc.).

The lineup on In a Glass House would be the final Gentle Giant lineup.  Musically, Phil's departure is perhaps less significant than any other change could have been.  His trumpet was an interesting addition when it appeared, but that was not often, and brother Derek also played saxophone and continued to do so.  His softer, sweeter voice was a nice contrast to Derek's rough, almost angry-sounding voice, but Kerry Minnear's voice was similar (so similar that I've often mistaken the two and didn't even realize it until reading the song credits).  No, the greater impact of Phil's departure was on the "attitude" within the band.  After four albums, Gentle Giant still had little more than a cult following, and Phil Shulman was the de facto leader of the band, as tends to be the case where siblings are involved.  In a Glass House has a stark sound and an overall bleak mood.  This is emphasized by the album art, which is all in black and white.

"People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones" first comes to mind for most people, but the album was actually inspired by an American TV-movie titled The Glass House, based on Truman Capote's In Cold BloodThe Glass House is set in a prison, and studies the inmates and the society within that system, where nothing is hidden.  Another concept album, the lyrics are typically oblique, but seem to fit this scenario more than some kind of general statement about not causing trouble and potentially destroying what you have.

The original album art was Gentle Giant's most ambitious yet.  There are photos of each band member on the inner sleeve visible through a cutout in the outer jacket.  The cutout is cellophane, with other, different photos of each member printed on it, creating a double-exposure effect.  Also, the photos themselves are negative and rendered in black and white, emphasizing the photo concept.

It's actually a lot easier to just show than it is to describe.

(https://imgur.com/6Uglitk.png)
(Combined images)

(https://i.imgur.com/Bc1AaZu.png) (https://i.imgur.com/yC88O3Z.png)
(Individual images)

Early CD pressings recreated the effect by printing the inner sleeve image on the CD booklet, with the outer jacket image silkscreened directly onto the front of the CD jewel case.


In a Glass House (1973) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NoFkl-bKcf4)

Gary Green: 12 String Guitar, Electric Guitars, Steel Guitar, Mandolin, Tambourine, Treble Recorder
Kerry Minnear: Moog, Hammond Organ, Piano, Clavinet, Electric Piano, Thomas Organ, Clavichord, Celesta, Glockenspiel, Marimba, Vibraphone, Tympani, Cello, Descant Recorder, Lead Vocals
Derek Shulman: Lead Vocals, Alto Saxophone, Soprano Saxophone, Descant Recorder
Ray Shulman: Bass, Acoustic Guitar, Violin, Electric Violin, Tambourine, Backing Vocals
John Weathers: Drums, Cowbell

----------

1 The Runaway (7:15) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WhZZZ6wfQrE)
2 An Inmate's Lullaby (4:39) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4aZbErzTLE)
3 Way of Life (8:04) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EopMDQ-YI9g)
4 Experience (7:50) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yPZhlqyQrZc)
5 A Reunion (2:11) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pxuihl7zWss)
6 In a Glass House (7:49) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_W_DEk0fnQ)

----------

The album opens with the sound of breaking glass.  Then more breaking glass, and some smashing glass, and eventually it falls into a rhythm, which leads into The Runaway (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WhZZZ6wfQrE).  Of course, he is a runaway only in his own mind.  In reality, there are walls and guards.  A longer tune by Gentle Giant standards, but one of four on this album.  The tone is set.

An Inmate's Lullaby (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4aZbErzTLE) starts with an odd mix of percussion, obviously in a clearly structured rhythm, but daring us to find the downbeat.  The tune is whimsical and odd, giving a look into the way an inmate might pass the time, the things he might think about, including whether or not he's insane (yet?).

So she visits you in prison, and you wonder if she'll ever understand the choices you've made, and if she'll ever understand your Way of Life (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EopMDQ-YI9g).  Of course, you don't currently have a lot of choices, and maybe you never did.  And maybe her visit was only in your mind in the first place.

Experience (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yPZhlqyQrZc) again brings up the subject of choices.  The narrator (Kerry on lead vocals this time) reflects on his youth, the choices which led him here, and how maybe after all this time, he might actually understand "the folly of these unripe years".  But what good is this understanding, considering where he is now?

A Reunion (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pxuihl7zWss) is the song (there are always one or two) which was likely written outside of the concept, but could fit into it as well.  Another Kerry Minnear composition featuring some excellent string arrangements, this is the shortest track on the album, and serves as a chance to catch your breath before the closer.

In a Glass House (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_W_DEk0fnQ).  The title track, and probably the most "prog" in that it goes through several changes of mood, revisits a few topics from earlier in the album, and, in true Gentle Giant fashion, leaves us not quite sure what we've just experienced.

The album closes with short snippets from each track, then the sounds of breaking glass repeating and fading...

----------

This album divides a lot of fans.  Some consider it their favorite, some find little to love about it at all.  But – and stop me if you've heard this before – that is true of every Gentle Giant album.  We're back to six songs, originally two LP sides each opening and closing with rockers and with a mellower tune in between, but this time the songs are a bit longer than on Three Friends (the previous album with this structure).  The songs also feel more fleshed-out, a bit more dense, more akin to those on Octopus.  Much of the "weirdness" is toned down; there's no medieval reed organ whining away or vocal gymnastics a la "Knots", but there's still some pretty crazy stuff going on, and the longer track times mean a bit more time to explore each idea, so the shifts in mood don't feel quite so psychotic.

Whether any of this is better, or worse, depends entirely upon the listener.

Unfortunately, Columbia Records, which had the U.S. distribution rights, decided that the album was not commercial enough, and the original LP was never released in the U.S. and was only available for a long time as an import.  According to one source, nearly 150,000 copies of the album were imported.  Columbia chose instead to drop Gentle Giant from their label, which meant the rights to the album reverted back to the band, who eventually released it on CD on their own label.

(https://imgur.com/lHV8Ke6.png)
(Back cover, just because I found a picture of it and felt like including it)
Title: Re: The Gentle Giant Discography: In a Glass House (1973)
Post by: Nearmyth on July 19, 2016, 07:47:52 PM
In A Glass House is my favorite GG record. It's so dense with so much going on, but the structures, writing, and progressions are impeccable.
Title: Re: The Gentle Giant Discography: In a Glass House (1973)
Post by: splent on July 19, 2016, 10:03:40 PM
Great album that really has that unique GG sound that I love.

We did Experience and A Reunion from this.
Title: Re: The Gentle Giant Discography: In a Glass House (1973)
Post by: Prog Snob on July 20, 2016, 05:35:59 AM

Great album that really has that unique GG sound that I love.


I concur. It's probably my favorite GG album and one of favorite prog releases in general.
Title: Re: The Gentle Giant Discography: In a Glass House (1973)
Post by: Mladen on July 20, 2016, 10:53:42 AM
Re-listened to this one the other day and I still adore it, it's my 2nd favorite GG. An Inmate's lullaby, The Runaway, Way of life and Reunion are glorious.
Title: Re: The Gentle Giant Discography: In a Glass House (1973)
Post by: darkshade on July 24, 2016, 12:01:21 PM
I'm a little behind. This thread made me realize I've never listened to Three Friends, so I had to get a copy. I'll get back with some comments.

Octopus and Glass House I know very well, though I haven't listened to either in a long time. These 2, along with Free Hand, are possibly the 3 best GG albums overall.
Title: Re: The Gentle Giant Discography: In a Glass House (1973)
Post by: darkshade on July 24, 2016, 12:34:15 PM
What the hell is wrong with me? Three Friends is awesome! Will listen again (it's a very short album.)
Title: Re: The Gentle Giant Discography: In a Glass House (1973)
Post by: Podaar on July 25, 2016, 04:23:04 PM
In A Glass House is my favorite so far, Orbert. Although, I've really enjoyed all of the albums too.

Strangely, the CD ($8.39) was less than a digital purchase ($9.49) on Amazon.
Title: Re: The Gentle Giant Discography: In a Glass House (1973)
Post by: Orbert on July 25, 2016, 04:41:20 PM
They must pay some guy $1.10 to rip the CDs.
Title: Re: The Gentle Giant Discography: In a Glass House (1973)
Post by: Podaar on July 25, 2016, 05:20:32 PM
 :lol
Title: Re: The Gentle Giant Discography: In a Glass House (1973)
Post by: The King in Crimson on July 26, 2016, 08:40:42 PM
They must pay some guy $1.10 to rip the CDs.
So that's what Tim 'Ripper' Owens is up to these days. Huh.
Title: Re: The Gentle Giant Discography: In a Glass House (1973)
Post by: Mosh on July 29, 2016, 10:40:53 AM
Finally listening to this. Oddly enough, it seems more accessible than the previous albums. The longer songs actually help, as they take more time to develop and leave more of an initial impression. It also "rocks" a little bit more. I'm going to guess that when current prog bands cite them as an influence, this is the album they're thinking of.

Great Marimba solo on The Runaway. Love their percussion use in general on this album.

Experience has a very catchy riff and as a whole vaguely reminds me of Larks era King Crimson.

Cool album.
Title: Re: The Gentle Giant Discography: In a Glass House (1973)
Post by: Orbert on July 29, 2016, 11:08:01 AM
:tup


Also, fear not, there's another installment coming.  I've just been really busy lately.
Title: Re: The Gentle Giant Discography: In a Glass House (1973)
Post by: darkshade on August 03, 2016, 03:41:33 PM
Finally listening to this. Oddly enough, it seems more accessible than the previous albums. The longer songs actually help, as they take more time to develop and leave more of an initial impression. It also "rocks" a little bit more. I'm going to guess that when current prog bands cite them as an influence, this is the album they're thinking of.

Great Marimba solo on The Runaway. Love their percussion use in general on this album.

Experience has a very catchy riff and as a whole vaguely reminds me of Larks era King Crimson.

Cool album.

From here until Interview is considered the "Classic era", though I think it starts at Octopus, some will agree, but In A Glass House is definitely more "accessible" (for GG). Free Hand is also considered one of the Giant's more influential albums, but we'll get there.

Going through these albums is great, it's been so long for me. I know these songs yet they sound so fresh. Octopus blew me away, so many emotions throughout the album.

In A Glass House is definitely rocks a little more, but nonetheless amazing compositions, the title track might be my favorite. Ironically, though this one of the band's best albums, this one didn't click for me for a while, I was blown away by Octopus, Free Hand, and Acquiring The Taste, the albums I heard first, and I guess I couldn't handle it. Eventually I got into it but it's still not my favorite. But clearly it's one of the best prog albums ever made, along with most of their discography.

Are we going to be covering the live album "Live (Playing The Fool)"?
Title: Re: The Gentle Giant Discography: In a Glass House (1973)
Post by: Orbert on August 03, 2016, 05:24:28 PM
Yes, I plan to hit Playing the Fool.  I find it fascinating and discussion-worthy how much their arrangements change from the studio to the stage.

Unfortunately, this week has been hell, and now I'm taking a long weekend to go camping, so the next update will be next week.  I promise!
Title: Re: The Gentle Giant Discography: In a Glass House (1973)
Post by: splent on August 06, 2016, 09:13:14 PM
Yes, I plan to hit Playing the Fool.  I find it fascinating and discussion-worthy how much their arrangements change from the studio to the stage.

Unfortunately, this week has been hell, and now I'm taking a long weekend to go camping, so the next update will be next week.  I promise!

Many of our arrangments were off of PLaying the Fool.
Title: The Gentle Giant Discography: The Power and The Glory (1974)
Post by: Orbert on August 08, 2016, 10:01:56 PM
Concept albums were definitely a "thing" with prog bands.  It seemed to fit well with the idea that the music is more than just a collection of songs.  Gentle Giant's concept albums were of the truly conceptual type: there weren't many recurring musical motifs and the songs didn't flesh out a coherent narrative or story.  The songs themselves, however, fit a concept.

In this case, the concept was power, political power.  Over the course of eight songs, we meet a ruler who has every intention of using his power for the good of the people, and see how things do not always turn out the way we planned.

There is a book with the same title (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Power_and_the_Glory) by British author Graham Greene, but while Derek Shulman knew of the novel, this album was not inspired by it.

Gentle Giant tried to capture a more immediate, direct feel for this album by trying to nail all the songs in one or two takes.  With most bands, that would necessitate reducing the complexity of the songs at least a little bit.  That is not the case here.  The songs do sound a bit more "live" than previous albums, but complex rhythms and the intricate interplay between parts, with instruments finishing each other's riffs and everything fitting together like pieces of a puzzle, are in full force as only Gentle Giant can do.

The Power and The Glory (1974) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZgoKwMbPSO8)

(https://imgur.com/4oY7fVO.png)

Gary Green: Electric Guitars, Acoustic Guitar, Vocals
Kerry Minnear: Hammond Organ, Piano, Minimoog, Clavinet, Electric Piano, Mellotron, Marimba, Vibraphone, Cello, Lead Vocals
Derek Shulman: Lead Vocals, Tenor Saxophone
Ray Shulman: Bass, Violin, Electric Violin, Acoustic Guitar, Vocals
John Weathers: Drums, Tamrourine, Sleigh Bells, Cymbals

----------

1 Proclamation (6:47) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsf0IL8ZNSY)
2 So Sincere (3:51) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLWvj6VyYGg)
3 Aspirations (4:40) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8tpBYUIvTk)
4 Playing the Game (6:46) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0E3nqEGmcw)
5 Cogs in Cogs (3:07) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEqk8JM5S4E)
6 No God's a Man (4:27) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sgYwWLQ8Z5U)
7 The Face (4:12) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oEmT-KpNJrI)
8 Valedictory (3:21) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CC1Glv43Iic)

----------

The album opens with the ruler issuing his Proclamation (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsf0IL8ZNSY).  The current situation is neither good nor bad, things can change or stay the same.  We must find strength in unity.  Musically, it's one of those songs that starts with a riff, a pattern, but you can't tell where the downbeat is until more instruments come in.

So Sincere (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLWvj6VyYGg) takes that a bit further with a rhythm so odd that it's not obvious where the downbeat is even after the rest of the band and vocals have come in.  A complex tune, both in structure and arrangement, it's actually in 4/4.  Really!

Aspirations (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8tpBYUIvTk) is the mellow Kerry piece, appearing a bit earlier on the album than has been the tradition of late, but that's because this is where the song fits lyrically.  One of my favorite Gentle Giant songs, this one is haunting and beautiful and completely driven by Kerry Minnear's work on the Wurlitzer electric piano.  He goes into a solo at the end that fades out far too quickly.  Lyrically, this song is from the viewpoint of the citizens, who have their hopes and dreams, and depend upon their leader to help make them a reality.

Playing the Game (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0E3nqEGmcw) is an odd one for me. The longest track on the album (actually it's tied with the opening track, but the opening track features some sound effects that add to the track length), it's the most musically complex and goes through the most changes.  But for me it's ruined by the pentatonic main riff which reminds me too much of the stupid ditties that kids used to tease me with when I was growing up.  (Presumably most people will not have that issue.)  Conceptually, the king is starting to see how difficult his task truly is, and how in many ways it's a game which must be played.  There is opposition to face, strategy to employ, and it's important to stick to one's philosophy if one expects to win.

Cogs in Cogs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEqk8JM5S4E) is the fast-driving, hard-rocking song with the break where the instruments and vocals weave around and through each other, reminiscent of the various sized wheels in a great machine.  At barely three minutes, it is the shortest track on the album, but Gentle Giant at this intensity level is perhaps better appreciated in smaller doses.

No God's a Man (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sgYwWLQ8Z5U) of course turns the old adage on its head.  The message is the same, however, as our benevolent ruler is starting to see that he may not be up to the task entrusted to him.

With The Face (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oEmT-KpNJrI), things are getting kinda bad.  But don't hide behind a face, don't try to minimize things.  To overcome, you must recognize the work that needs to be done, acknowledge the mistakes, own up to them, stay true to yourself.

Valedictory (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CC1Glv43Iic) is like a reprise of "Proclamation" but with a heavier, driving beat.  These are tough times.  And yes, it's my fault and I'm sorry, but please believe me, I have always had the best interests of our nation at heart, and still believe that we can persevere.  There must be no change.  Things must stay the same.  (And that, of course, is the problem.  Thing cannot get better if you insist on not changing anything.)

"Valedictory" ends with the sound of a tape rewinding very quickly.  It is actually the entire album being played backwards.

----------

Some versions of the CD include the title track "The Power and The Glory" as a bonus track.  It actually was not written for the original album and doesn't fit into the concept.  It therefore isn't really a proper title track.  The suits insisted on something that they could release as a single, and none of the eight tracks here fit that bill.  Ray Shulman: "So we did three atrocious numbers. This song's the worst."

And when the suits heard it: "You've got it, lads!"

Gentle Giant's sound continued to streamline, with only the occassional saxophone or string parts adding a bit of color to the basic rock structure of vocals, guitar, keyboards, bass, and drums.  The band insist that they were not intentionally trying to dilute things, and the fact that the suits insisted that the band go back and write a single, because nothing they'd recorded fit that bill, would seem to support that.  Perhaps it was simply a natural evolution of the band.  This was their sixth album in four years.  Were they burning out already?  Or did their drive to recapture some creative energy unconsciously lead them to simplify things?

Either way, supporters of this album (of which there are many) point to it as both quintessential Gentle Giant and among the more accessible Gentle Giant albums.  That would seem to be a contradiction, but oddly enough, I can see both sides of it.  Even as they were stripping away the "weird" stuff (recorders, winds, and strings) their bread and butter has always been the intricate, meticulous interplay between the instruments, and they're still bringing it here.  Musically, this album has great flow.  I'm always surprised when "Valedictory" comes up because that means the album is almost over, then I remember how short Gentle Giant albums are.  But it's about quality, not quantity.
Title: Re: The Gentle Giant Discography: The Power and The Glory (1974)
Post by: splent on August 08, 2016, 11:46:45 PM
This is probably my favorite GG album. Everything on here is solid and enjoyable for me and I like the concept a lot.

We did Proclamation, Aspirations, Playing the Game, Cogs in Cogs, and Power and the Glory from this album. Power and the Glory is pretty straightforward but there are all these nuances that make it a lot more difficult to learn than you would think; especially the ending, which fades out on the record. I believe we created our own ending to it which was really hard to get together; we took the scale pattern and modulated the triplet phrase several times so it would fit but we got it. Cogs in Cogs is in my top 5 favorite songs, and is one of the songs that got me into GG when I was first discovering them.
Title: Re: The Gentle Giant Discography: The Power and The Glory (1974)
Post by: Orbert on August 09, 2016, 07:34:47 AM
I remember when you guys did "Proclamation" that, toward the end, you did the psychotic 32nd-note runs on the second keyboard.  I loved that, especially since Gentle Giant themselves didn't do that part live.  Also, a little odd because Kerry's only using one hand at the time, but that lick probably required a hell of a lot of attention.  If I'm not mistaken, didn't you also segue into "Valedictory" as they do on the live album?

I remember hearing one or two songs that I wasn't really familiar with.  "The Power and The Glory" must've been one of them, as I didn't know it at the time.  That song creates a quandary for me.  I have the CD with it as a bonus track, and I tend to rip CDs to my iPod and generally play albums straight through.  But I know the album ends with "Valedictory" and hearing another song after that, especially a somewhat weaker song and with different sound quality, kinduv ruins the experience, or at least ends it on a bad note.  I eventually just took it off of my iPod.
Title: Re: The Gentle Giant Discography: The Power and The Glory (1974)
Post by: splent on August 09, 2016, 09:10:28 AM
Yeah we segued into valedictory- we used the playing the fool track as a guide
Title: Re: The Gentle Giant Discography: The Power and The Glory (1974)
Post by: Podaar on August 09, 2016, 09:12:30 AM
Listening now. I know I've heard this album before but honestly, none of it is familiar so far.

So Sincere is nuts  :omg:  :lol
Title: Re: The Gentle Giant Discography: The Power and The Glory (1974)
Post by: Mladen on August 09, 2016, 10:16:23 AM
Proclamation and Playing the game are amazing.

I never really cared about the rest.
Title: Re: The Gentle Giant Discography: The Power and The Glory (1974)
Post by: Orbert on August 09, 2016, 11:09:40 AM
Listening now. I know I've heard this album before but honestly, none of it is familiar so far.

So Sincere is nuts  :omg:  :lol

True.  But just wait until we get to the live version.
Title: Re: The Gentle Giant Discography: The Power and The Glory (1974)
Post by: Podaar on August 09, 2016, 11:12:56 AM
I went through three back to back listens and really enjoyed it. I'm not sure if I'll purchase it like I did some of the others but if I do it will because I just have to have "So Sincere" in my rotation. It's just too perfect!
Title: Re: The Gentle Giant Discography: The Power and The Glory (1974)
Post by: Orbert on August 12, 2016, 04:48:12 PM
Some additional tidbits on The Power and The Glory, since I was in a hurry the other day and missed some stuff I meant to include.


With the previous album, In a Glass House, they wanted to prove to themselves that they could continue without their leader, Phil.  The suits weren't really worried about it.  Still, In a Glass House was meticulously crafted and they wanted it to be a truly excellent album.  Most would say that they succeeded.  With this album, the pressure was off a bit, so they chose a different direction entirely.  The idea was to capture the "live" feel of their music, since they all felt that their live performances were generally superior to their studio work.  They rehearsed a lot, then attempted to record all basic tracks live.  They would come back later and do vocals, overdubs, etc.

They found themselves getting very nervous once they started recording, however, since they'd never recorded live in the studio before.  They kept screwing up.  Minor things, mostly, but while these minor flaws can be forgiven when playing for an audience, they didn't want the imperfections on the studio record.  After trying all day to get some good basic tracks, and failing, they headed to the pub for a few drinks.  Then they came back to the studio.

Things went much better.  They had loosened up enough to play and let the music flow.  Actually, on "The Face", Ray ends his violin solo four bars early and you can hear him say "Oh no!" before scratching out a few more notes to fill the space.  They all thought it was so funny that they decided to keep it.

This approach also meant that most songs were more-or-less worked out ahead of time, rather than written "by the group" in the studio.  Ray and Kerry were already the primary writers, but it was becoming more obvious who wrote what.  If there's a lot of keyboard work, or strange vocal harmonies, it's probably Kerry.  If it's more straight-on rock and roll, it's probably Ray.

The album cover obviously is meant to resemble the King on a playing card.  The design is from an actual deck of cards they bought while on tour in Germany.  The original LP jackets were die-cut, with the corners rounded, so it would be more like an actual playing card.

Correction: Kerry Minnear plays a Wurlitzer electric piano, not a Rhodes.  I knew that.  I even had a Wurlitzer once; it was my first electric piano.  But somehow I got it into my head long ago that that was a Rhodes, and that's what I wrote.  I've corrected the original post.

And finally, if you have the means and opportunity, check out the 5.1 mixes by Steven Wilson.  He's done The Power and The Glory and Octopus so far, and they're both amazing, of course.
Title: Re: The Gentle Giant Discography: The Power and The Glory (1974)
Post by: Mosh on August 13, 2016, 09:25:54 AM
This is definitely one of the more accessible ones and really rocks at times. Love the Wurlitzer playing throughout the album.

Cogs In Cogs really stuck out to me on this.

Title: Re: The Gentle Giant Discography: The Power and The Glory (1974)
Post by: Orbert on August 13, 2016, 10:43:21 AM
When I first got the "Steven Wilson 5.1 Editions" I took the first opportunity to play the 5.1 mixes and crank them up.  They're glorious, as you would expect.  But I actually kinda forgot that these also come with a regular CD version, because the CD player in my car was hosed for years.  I now have a new stereo in my car, so I pulled out the CDs the other day and played both during my commute.

Oh, baby.  The clarity is what first jumps out.  Every note sounds so crisp, so clean.  After listening to these albums first on LP back in the 70's and 80's, then on somewhat cheaply produced CDs, hearing these albums like this is like hearing them for the first time.  This is the best that these albums have ever sounded.  If you're into Gentle Giant at all, check them out.  They're even priced very reasonably.

The Power and The Glory 5.1 (https://www.amazon.com/Power-Steven-Wilson-Blu-ray-Deluxe/dp/B00KGFGLA2)

Octopus 5.1 (https://www.amazon.com/Octopus-Remixed-Steven-Wilson-Gentle/dp/B014JDO9NC)

Steven has become the go-to guy in the industry for creating 5.1 remixes of classic prog albums, and he seems to have a backlog that he's working through, but the main thing is that he does albums that he likes.  I'm sure the money's nice, too, but to take it upon yourself to do this kind of thing, and do it so damned well requires a real passion for the music.  And it shows.  I have the ones he's done so far for Gentle Giant, Yes, and ELP, and I love them all.
Title: Re: The Gentle Giant Discography: The Power and The Glory (1974)
Post by: Mosh on August 13, 2016, 10:51:18 AM
Are there other must haves on CD by Gentle Giant with good remastering/bonus tracks, or am I better off looking for the original vinyls for every other album?
Title: Re: The Gentle Giant Discography: The Power and The Glory (1974)
Post by: Orbert on August 13, 2016, 03:11:49 PM
There's a CD with Free Hand and Interview together (https://www.amazon.com/Free-Hand-Interview-Gentle-Giant/dp/B0000241AO/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1471121874&sr=8-1&keywords=free+hand+interview) which is remastered.  I have this, and it sounds pretty good to me.  But all I had before that was the vinyl, and it's always hard to compare.  The CD has a brighter, cleaner sound, which is good, whilst the LPs have a warmer sound.  Experts agree that the "warmth" most people hear with vinyl is much more a function of the limited frequency range than of the analog nature of the medium.  There are those who insist that it's the fact that it's a lossless medium, however, so who knows?

I also have Playing the Fool and Civilian (https://www.amazon.com/Playing-Fool-Civilian-Gentle-Giant/dp/B00000I7GA/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1471122335&sr=8-1&keywords=gentle+giant+playing+the+fool+civilian) remastered, which is also very good.  The info is incorrect; this is actually a 2-CD package.

I got both of these packages years ago, when CD reissues of LPs were more of a thing, and I didn't have any GG on CD.  I don't know if either of these are must-haves, but they do sound good and they're good bargains.  They're also my favorites from the Gentle Giant catalog.

There's also a CD with Three Friends and Octopus (https://www.amazon.com/Gentle-Giant-Three-Friends-Octopus/dp/B00BIXZBP2/ref=pd_sim_sbs_15_4?ie=UTF8&dpID=51zJ7J-VnAL&dpSrc=sims&preST=_AC_UL320_SR284%2C320_&psc=1&refRID=GS4BJ9GAWT1WP20W14RK) remastered, but I haven't heard this.  Three Friends is very good, but I would probably skip this and go with the Steven Wilson 5.1 of Octopus.

I've read that someone put some 4.0 discs out there of Free Hand and Interview, probably DVD-A but I'm not sure.  I can't find anything about them via Google.  Supposedly these are from the original Quadrophonic mixes, so that would be interesting to hear.  But again, I can't find anything.
Title: Re: The Gentle Giant Discography: The Power and The Glory (1974)
Post by: Cyclopssss on August 14, 2016, 10:19:00 AM
My reaction to listening to the last three albums as opposed to the earlier work is that it sounds almost like its a different band. The sound is so much slicker. Also the sense of adventure seems to be completely gone.
Title: Re: The Gentle Giant Discography: The Power and The Glory (1974)
Post by: Orbert on August 14, 2016, 09:21:09 PM
I wouldn't go that far, but I get your point.  They'd definitely dialed things back a bit by this point.  I think songs like "So Sincere" and "Cogs in Cogs" still show a lot of adventure, certainly a sense of doing things just to do them, since nobody else was doing it and perhaps even because nobody else was.  A lot of stuff on the early albums almost sounded to me like compositional exercises.  Throwing in the sax or trumpet or cello just because you've got guys who can play those instruments, and why not?  It's challenging music, adventurous for sure, but as much as I love it, I can't listen to it regularly.

I think that ultimately, every musician wants to be heard.  Many will talk a good talk about how they're doing exactly what they want and they don't care if it's popular (sound familiar?) but doing what you want doesn't do anyone any good if nobody hears your music.  You still have to have something people will buy.  Those early albums were amazing, and it was the 70's and labels often gave bands some time to prove themselves, find their formula, hit their stride, whatever you want to call it.  But at some point, they need to see something coming out of the money they've put into you.

I think of this period of Gentle Giant as more-or-less like the Leftoverture or Point of Know Return period of Kansas.  They started with a lot of different influences and different sounds to put together, and finding a way to create music that did all the amazing things they could do, yet somehow package it into songs that were accessible took a while.  I know, they said early on that that wasn't the goal.  But I don't know how long you can stick to that when you've been pouring yourself into your work and not building much of a following.  That following didn't come until they'd at least toned things down a bit.
Title: Re: The Gentle Giant Discography: The Power and The Glory (1974)
Post by: Mosh on August 14, 2016, 09:52:54 PM
I wouldn't go that far, but I get your point.  They'd definitely dialed things back a bit by this point.  I think songs like "So Sincere" and "Cogs in Cogs" still show a lot of adventure, certainly a sense of doing things just to do them, since nobody else was doing it and perhaps even because nobody else was.  A lot of stuff on the early albums almost sounded to me like compositional exercises.  Throwing in the sax or trumpet or cello just because you've got guys who can play those instruments, and why not?  It's challenging music, adventurous for sure, but as much as I love it, I can't listen to it regularly.

That seems to be something a lot of prog bands went through. They try a lot of things early in their career that are less about writing great songs and more about pushing boundaries and experimenting. Sometimes the result was good sometimes not. After awhile though it becomes more about crafting a really good song. Gentle Giant definitely seems to have reached that stage by this album.

Rush is another good example, the way Neil Peart says that Rush was born with Moving Pictures. I think that's the sort of thing he was referring to.
Title: Re: The Gentle Giant Discography: The Power and The Glory (1974)
Post by: Mosh on August 14, 2016, 11:33:00 PM
There's a CD with Free Hand and Interview together (https://www.amazon.com/Free-Hand-Interview-Gentle-Giant/dp/B0000241AO/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1471121874&sr=8-1&keywords=free+hand+interview) which is remastered.  I have this, and it sounds pretty good to me.  But all I had before that was the vinyl, and it's always hard to compare.  The CD has a brighter, cleaner sound, which is good, whilst the LPs have a warmer sound.  Experts agree that the "warmth" most people hear with vinyl is much more a function of the limited frequency range than of the analog nature of the medium.  There are those who insist that it's the fact that it's a lossless medium, however, so who knows?

I also have Playing the Fool and Civilian (https://www.amazon.com/Playing-Fool-Civilian-Gentle-Giant/dp/B00000I7GA/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1471122335&sr=8-1&keywords=gentle+giant+playing+the+fool+civilian) remastered, which is also very good.  The info is incorrect; this is actually a 2-CD package.

I got both of these packages years ago, when CD reissues of LPs were more of a thing, and I didn't have any GG on CD.  I don't know if either of these are must-haves, but they do sound good and they're good bargains.  They're also my favorites from the Gentle Giant catalog.

There's also a CD with Three Friends and Octopus (https://www.amazon.com/Gentle-Giant-Three-Friends-Octopus/dp/B00BIXZBP2/ref=pd_sim_sbs_15_4?ie=UTF8&dpID=51zJ7J-VnAL&dpSrc=sims&preST=_AC_UL320_SR284%2C320_&psc=1&refRID=GS4BJ9GAWT1WP20W14RK) remastered, but I haven't heard this.  Three Friends is very good, but I would probably skip this and go with the Steven Wilson 5.1 of Octopus.

I've read that someone put some 4.0 discs out there of Free Hand and Interview, probably DVD-A but I'm not sure.  I can't find anything about them via Google.  Supposedly these are from the original Quadrophonic mixes, so that would be interesting to hear.  But again, I can't find anything.
Cool. 5.1's will be a priority, not sure if I'll go out of my way for any others but would probably pick them up if I came across them at a record store.

RE vinyl and cds: aren't cds also a lossless format? I am no audiophile though so lossy vs lossless was never that important to me.
Title: Re: The Gentle Giant Discography: The Power and The Glory (1974)
Post by: Orbert on August 15, 2016, 07:25:54 AM
Technically, CDs of anything that was originally mastered analog is not lossless.  At some point, a digital sampling is taken of a continuous waveform.  But the sampling rate is so high that the vast majority of experts say that no normal human can hear the difference.  It's lossless compared to mp3.
Title: The Gentle Giant Discography: Free Hand (1975)
Post by: Orbert on August 18, 2016, 12:39:03 PM
Gentle Giant had thus far spent their entire career with Vertigo Records.  As mentioned upthread, it was not uncommon in the 70's for labels to give bands a certain amount of leeway if they felt that they had the potential to develop into something big, often signing them to multi-album deals to give them the necessary time to hone their skills and develop a following.  As noted, Gentle Giant's sound had become "refined" (for lack of a better term) by this time and they had indeed built a following which grew with each successive album.  Apparently this progression was not enough for the suits at Vertigo, and Gentle Giant were also getting frustrated with the pressure to produce hit singles, which was never a goal in the first place as far as they were concerned.

Ultimately Gentle Giant and Vertigo parted ways.  The title track of their first album on Chrysalis Records celebrates their new-found freedom, while taking a few parting shots at their old label.

Free Hand (1975) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRVq80EfoRY)

(https://imgur.com/xYernfu.png)

Gary Green: Electric Guitar, Acoustic Guitar, Descant Recorder, Vocals
Kerry Minnear: Piano, Hammond Organ, Clavinet, Synthesizers, Electric Piano, Harpsichord, Celesta, Glockenspiel, Vibraphone, Marimba, Tympani, Harp, Cello, Tenor Recorder, Vocals
Derek Shulman: Lead Vocals, Treble Recorder, Alto Saxophone
Ray Shulman: Bass, Electric Violin, Violin, Viola, Vocals
John Weathers: Drums, Tambourine, Triangle, Woodblock, Cowbell, Frame Drums, Percussion
----------

1 Just the Same (5:33) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hGaoD28P-MY)
2 On Reflection (5:43) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lLgfRIjiUb8)
3 Free Hand (6:14) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14g9BNZnv9g)
4 Time to Kill (5:08) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oCB5w2gp5TA)
5 His Last Voyage (6:26) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17e-xZ1YVr0)
6 Talybont (2:43) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dc5GXUlYq0o)
7 Mobile (5:03) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sat4gZKp9IA)

----------

Just the Same (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hGaoD28P-MY)  The album opens with the sound of fingers snapping.  The rhythm is syncopated and bounces between the left and right channels, eventually joined by the keyboards, then guitar, then the rest of the band including vocals.  The meter at that point would seem to be a "relatively straight" 14/4 (4+4+4+2/4) but if you listen closely, the bass and drums are playing in 6/4 while the vocals, keyboards, and guitar are in 7/4.  Although Gentle Giant would continue to "refine" their sound – taking fewer and fewer excursions featuring unusual instrumentation – the rhythm is quite complex and punctuated by saxophones throughout the verses and break, just to let you know that they haven't completely abandoned their more esoteric side. 

On Reflection (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lLgfRIjiUb8) opens with an amazing four-part a capella vocal fugue in 15/4.  The second verse adds a different instrument each time the next voice comes in.  The harmonies are great, sounding like much more than the four parts actually present, thanks to a brilliant arrangement by Kerry Minnear putting his degree in composition to good use.  After a mellow break in 3/4, the fugue returns as an instrumental, this time with the drums coming in on the second "verse".  This one is a favorite of many, many Gentle Giant fans, and it's easy to hear why.  (Just wait 'til you hear the live version.)  The production here, as on the entire album, is great.  This is a truly amazing-sounding tune.

The title track, Free Hand (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14g9BNZnv9g), on the surface is about a man finally free from a torturous relationship, and to me that's all it was for a long time.  Then I learned more about the behind-the-scenes issues between the band and the suits, and it's easy to see it the other way as well.  Derek's harsh voice is perfect for conveying the venom directed toward the recipient of this declaration of independence.

Side Two of the original LP opens with the familiar sounds of a video game.  (Familiar, that is, to anyone who was around in the 70's.  The game is "Pong".)  The main riff of Time to Kill (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oCB5w2gp5TA) then enters quite abruptly, shaking us out of the malaise.  It returns during the bridge as a lead-in to another bout of GG-style vocal gymnastics.

His Last Voyage (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17e-xZ1YVr0) is the mellow song, composed of course by Kerry.  It contains one of my favorite guitar solos by Gary Green, and the middle section is a three-part vocal canon.  Another haunting, brilliantly arranged piece.

A rare instrumental, Talybont (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dc5GXUlYq0o) was originally composed for a Robin Hood movie, which is why the renaissance/medieval sound is even more obvious than on other Gentle Giant tunes (and probably why Gentle Giant was chosen to write the music in the first place).  The movie was never made.  While the rhythm is completely different, the notes in the melody for "Talybont" match the melody of "Just the Same".

Mobile (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sat4gZKp9IA) is a rocker driven by Ray's violin riff.  I love the weird harmonies and vocal effects during the break, just before the guitar solo (which is accompanied only by percussion).  The song seemingly ends with the final chord struck, sustained, and allowed to fade all the way out, then there is a final drum roll to close the album.  One of my favorite "Gentle Giant stories" is of how they would play this song in concert, and the audience would wait in silence for that final drum roll – only then is the song actually over – before bursting into applause.

----------

In case you couldn't tell, this is my favorite Gentle Giant album.  Not quite coincidentally, it was also the first studio album of theirs that I heard.  But that is mostly because I was turned on to Gentle Giant via their amazing live album Playing the Fool, and all three songs from Side One are on that album.  So Carl, the guy who got me into Gentle Giant (and also my then-girlfriend's brother) suggested this album as the next one I should check out.

It was the perfect starting point.  The songs were accessible, but still had plenty to offer the budding proghead.  Odd rhythms and meters, great interplay between the instruments, excellent vocal arrangements, still plenty of esoteric instrumentation (I'm a sucker for any band that can rock a marimba or a violin solo), and a driving rock and roll backbeat to bring it all together.  This is the most consistent Gentle Giant album, the one I can listen to on Repeat, and have done so on multiple occassions.
Title: Re: The Gentle Giant Discography: Free Hand (1975)
Post by: Cyclopssss on August 19, 2016, 12:42:33 AM
Orbert, again my compliments on a great write-up!
Title: Re: The Gentle Giant Discography: Free Hand (1975)
Post by: Orbert on August 19, 2016, 07:43:17 AM
Thanks!  This is the one I always tell people to start with, unless they have the time and resources to go through the entire catalog in order.  From here, you can easily go backward and see how things were crazier and really pushed the limits, but that can be a bit overwhelming for those not already acclimated to the Gentle Giant sound.  Also, moving forward, the band would continue to streamline (to the dismay of most hardcore fans), but it is a natural progression, not the abrupt change which many who have you believe.

To me, this is their Leftoverture, their Moving Pictures, the one where it all came together, the one I can listen to over and over.  Solid and ass-kicking all the way through.
Title: Re: The Gentle Giant Discography: Free Hand (1975)
Post by: Mladen on August 19, 2016, 11:45:19 AM
There are several Gentle Giant albums that I prefer to this one, but it's still very good. On reflection is a classic, and the last two songs are lovely as well. Reading Orbert's write-up made me realize I should use my weekend to go back to the album.
Title: Re: The Gentle Giant Discography: Free Hand (1975)
Post by: splent on August 20, 2016, 10:31:07 AM
On Reflection is hands down my favorite GG track. You can see how people like Neal Morse were influenced by them from this track.

We did the first three or four tracks from this album... I know we were at least learning Time to Kill but I don't recall if we did it live or not. We did learn a few new tracks for our second gig at Shank Hall in Milwaukee, and I think this was it... although we did the version on Playing the Fool. We also had the music for His Last Voyage but never learned it, it was on the list of ones we were going to learn before we ultimately shelved the band (just not making any money, we were all sacrificing time and money and that was running out, the last straw was a prog festival that hired us but then the festival was cancelled).
Title: Re: The Gentle Giant Discography: Free Hand (1975)
Post by: Orbert on August 20, 2016, 01:46:42 PM
I remember telling you that you guys should do "Mobile".  I love that song, and it would've made use of the violin as well.
Title: Re: The Gentle Giant Discography: Free Hand (1975)
Post by: Mosh on August 21, 2016, 11:48:43 PM
This was a good one. Moving Pictures and Leftoverture are good comparisons. It has that similar sense of accessible music but still maintaining the complexity of their earlier work.
Title: Re: The Gentle Giant Discography: Free Hand (1975)
Post by: Orbert on August 22, 2016, 04:48:17 PM
I'm leaving tomorrow for an extended road trip, and don't have time to properly research the next album, so I'll leave you with a few more tidbits regarding Free Hand.

I've read that someone put some 4.0 discs out there of Free Hand and Interview, probably DVD-A but I'm not sure.  I can't find anything about them via Google.  Supposedly these are from the original Quadrophonic mixes, so that would be interesting to hear.  But again, I can't find anything.

Follow-up: These are definitely 4.0 mixes, and are on DVD-A.


In the early days of lesser-known bands getting their work released on CD, it was often hit-or-miss regarding the quality of the transfer.  The first CD of Free Hand was released by One Way Records and was, by all accounts, of very poor quality.  They actually ended up recalling the lot because of the quality issues.

The second One Way release was of much better sound quality, but was made from what was apparently a rough mix, quite far into the process, but not a finished master.  Everything's there, but there are some differences.  For example, there are vocal lines sung by Derek rather than Kerry, drums enter at a different point, etc.  But by far the worst offense is that the final drum roll at the end of "Mobile" is missing.

I have a copy of this "alternate" version of the album, and it is interesting as a look into the process, but really nothing more, as the vast majority of the album is the same.

Speaking of alternate versions, apparently CD pressings used a different version of the cover art:

(https://imgur.com/2IuryLR.jpg)

The free hand is in a slightly different position.  Since I downloaded the "alternate mix" CD off the Internet, I thought for a while that the alternate mix was also the one with the alternate cover (which I've never actually seen), but no.  There just happen to be different versions of the cover art out there, and CDs made from an alternate master as well.

No one seems to know how One Way got ahold of the "non-master" that they did, or the different cover art.  The early days of CD were a strange and interesting time.
Title: Re: The Gentle Giant Discography: Free Hand (1975)
Post by: darkshade on August 24, 2016, 09:24:47 AM
Free Hand was an early favorite. I think I was 18 when I first heard this album. Listening to this now, and I'm being swept with memories and feelings of nostalgia, as a few friends and I would listen to this album (among others) while hanging out and smoking some herb. Gentle Giant, while more known for their crazy compositions and great rocking riffs, also show off a side that most prog bands can't/don't, which is their gentle  ;) side, their tender, beautiful side, like on His Last Voyage, which may be the most beautiful prog song ever written. HLV has some "proggy moments" but is all emotion, and one of the best guitar solos I've ever heard, so much soul, another thing most prog bands lack, especially those formed after the 1970s.

I can't get enough of Free Hand, though this is the first time I've listened in a while. I'm always reminded of the past when I hear it, I recall a time a couple of friends listened to the whole album in one sitting, and we were like "whoa we listened to the whole thing!" and it's funny because it's only like 36 minutes long, and I listen to 1 hour - 2 hour long albums and live shows all the time these days.
Title: The Gentle Giant Discography: In'terview (1976)
Post by: Orbert on September 06, 2016, 10:32:34 PM
Gentle Giant toured North America, Great Britain, and Europe to promote Free Hand, their most successful album yet.  Between tours, and likely during them as well, they somehow found time to write, rehearse, and record the follow-up, In'terview.

They took a month off to write the album, followed by their usual three weeks in the studio to record it.  After the one-month writing period was over, they didn't have a complete album yet, but the studio time was already booked, so they proceeded into the studio to begin recording what they had, while writing continued.  The three weeks they had booked did not prove to be enough time, and they eventually finished recording about a week later, grabbing extra studio time whenever available.

The results reflect the frenetic pace at which the album went from nothing to finished product.  While the production is excellent, and the arrangements easily up to Gentle Giant standards, the songwriting is perhaps a bit less consistent.  But make no mistake; there are no weak Gentle Giant albums.

In'terview (1976) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbCfJM-p3PU&list=RDtbCfJM-p3PU#t=4)

(https://imgur.com/rkoxZlG.png)

Gary Green: Electric Guitar, Acoustic Guitar, Alto Recorder, Backing Vocals
Kerry Minnear: Minimoog, Piano, Hammond Organ, Clavinet, Electric Piano, Synthesizer, Clavichord, Marimba, Percussion, Lead Vocals, Backing Vocals
Derek Shulman: Lead Vocals, Alto Saxophone, Percussion
Ray Shulman: Bass, Electric Violin, Violin, 12 String Guitar, Percussion, Backing Vocals
John Weathers: Drums, Tambourine, Percussion, Finger Cymbal, Cowbell, Cabasa, Güiro, Gong, Backing Vocals, Lead Vocals
Phil Sutcliffe: Interviewer
----------

1 Interview (6:54) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbCfJM-p3PU)
2 Give It Back (5:12) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cv8VZbHhq48)
3 Design (5:00) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D22xWl9PTwU)
4 Another Show (3:29) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EnK8xdSY2u0)
5 Empty City (4:23) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HVDVSsM5aEA)
6 Timing (4:52) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCZXMLwX0fI)
7 I Lost My Head (6:57) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuyYcakQIc0)

----------

The album concept is something of a musical interview.  It starts quietly with the sounds of people pulling up chairs and a bit of casual conversation, then we hear the interviewer ask "Where shall we begin?" Sometime during this, you've turned the volume up to catch whatever you can, so when the song Interview (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbCfJM-p3PU) starts, with its driving, irregular beat, it hits you right in the face.  The song is a combination of serious answers to unspoken questions ("After the fourth once, realisation...") and a parody of all the inane questions they get asked in every interview (which they don't answer at all).

Give It Back (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cv8VZbHhq48) answers the question which no one had yet dared to ask, which is "What if Gentle Giant wrote a reggae song?"  This is the answer.  It's reggae, but with the demented Gentle Giant twist.  You might think you know where the rhythm is going, but you would probably be wrong.

The interview continues.  "How would you describe your music?"  In response, they all begin talking at once (which is actually pretty funny if you know Gentle Giant music at all).

At one point late in the process, Kerry sat in a basement room with a guitar and a tape recorder, writing, while the rest of the band was upstairs recording.  He then came up and passed out finished parts to everyone, and they recorded Design (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D22xWl9PTwU), another masterpiece of composition and arrangement.  Until they had a master, even Kerry did not know how the finished song would sound.

Another Show (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EnK8xdSY2u0) kinda bugs me.  It's the uptempo, ranting, shouting song, and certain phrases are punctuated with the sound of a Hammond organ being unplugged while being played, representing the hurry to tear down the set and get ready for another town and another show.  For a long time, I avoided this album, having never really played it enough times to become familiar with it, but seemed to remember a bunch of half-baked songs and one song (this one) with the horrible whining, droning sound.  I realize now that if I could've skipped this song, my opinion of the album would have been much, much higher.  And as always, one cannot pass judgement on a Gentle Giant album until at least half a dozen complete listens, and I don't know if I ever got that many.

Going immediately to the other end of the sonic spectrum, Empty City (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HVDVSsM5aEA) opens with a quiet acoustic guitar duet (Gary on six-string, Ray on 12-string) eventually joined by the rest of the band and finally the vocals.  The song takes us through a few changes, and eventually leaves us with the same quiet mood with which we began.  It's a beautiful, introspective piece.

The interviewer asks four more questions.  The answers come in the form of Timing (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCZXMLwX0fI), which features the trademark Gentle Giant interweaving of parts, and rhythms completed only after all parts are present, sometimes including even the vocals.

I Lost My Head (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuyYcakQIc0) is another "two part" song, starting with a quiet section before bursting forth into the hard-rocking second section, similar to "Peel the Paint" from the third album.  Interesting then, that these two songs are combined into a sort of medley on the live album.  But I'm getting ahead of myself.

The interview, and the album itself, ends with the interviewer thanking the band for their time, and wishing them luck.

----------

I had a lot of trouble with this album at first, which could have been alleviated greatly if Skip button technology had existed on consumer-grade turntables in the 70's.  That horrible sound on "Another Show" actually bothered me so much that I ended up just not playing the album at all, and missing out on another great Gentle Giant album.  I don't like this one as much as Free Hand, but it is a worthy follow-up.

The other problem I have is the "interview" parts.  As a concept, it's pretty cool, and spoken word has its place in some songs, but for me there's just no replay value.  Whatever it adds to the songs and the concept, it takes away from the overall flow of the album.  Sorry, but I'd rather just have a collection of songs I can listen to.  Not everything has to be connected via some grand theme or concept, and it's just a bit annoying when the music stops every couple of songs and there's some barely audible talking.

During the Free Hand tour, the band was frustrated to find that there were some songs that they just could not perform live.  They could not reproduce all of the parts on the studio version, and could not even (to their satisfaction) cover all the essential parts.  This led to a conscious effort to only record songs which they could play in a live setting.  In'terview therefore continued the streamlining of the Gentle Giant sound.  Once they had finished recording the album, Kerry noted that there were no cellos, flutes, recorders, or vibes.  "Maybe it's rock and roll" joked Ray.  (Also, Kerry was mistaken; the alto recorder makes a brief appearance on "I Lost My Head".)
Title: Re: The Gentle Giant Discography: In'terview (1976)
Post by: Podaar on September 07, 2016, 09:41:46 AM
Listening now. I take back my earlier comment that Mr. Nalder played all the GG albums in my art class. I'm pretty sure I've never heard this one before...but then, it was a long time ago.

So far, Interview, Empty City, and Timing are really standing out for me. I didn't even notice Another Show, so I'll listen again this afternoon when I'm less distracted.

[edit] I don't know, I enjoy Another Show. It's a bit frenetic but I think that's part of its charm. I imagine that the "unplugging" would get a bit repetitive if I listened to the album frequently.

Still enjoying the journey, Orbert! Thanks. [/edit]
Title: Re: The Gentle Giant Discography: In'terview (1976)
Post by: Mladen on September 09, 2016, 09:32:52 AM
I've heard this one for the first time last year and thought it was very good. A slight drop in quality after Free hand, but still good. But now that I've returned to it after a while... Well, it's better than I remembered it. The first two songs are tremendous, the next two are absolutely insane. Still listening.

EDIT: I lost my head is also great. I really enjoyed the album this time around.
Title: Re: The Gentle Giant Discography: In'terview (1976)
Post by: Orbert on September 09, 2016, 10:45:55 AM
I've found that I like the album a lot more now as well.  "Another Show" isn't quite as horrible as I remembered, though I do still skip it, usually.
Title: Re: The Gentle Giant Discography: In'terview (1976)
Post by: splent on September 09, 2016, 03:33:28 PM
We learned interview for our final show in Milwaukee but otherwise didn't do anything off of this album.
Title: Re: The Gentle Giant Discography: In'terview (1976)
Post by: Orbert on September 09, 2016, 03:45:15 PM
Did you do both vocal parts, or was someone else "the interviewer"?

("What are your plans for the future, etc?")
Title: Re: The Gentle Giant Discography: In'terview (1976)
Post by: Mosh on September 09, 2016, 10:43:29 PM
Give It Back has some really pleasant melodies and an orchestral vibe to it. I guess the emphasis on upbeats has a reggae association, but I hear more of a waltz, at least toward the end. By far my favorite thing about this band is how they managed to take rock instrumentation and do more with it than anyone else had up to that point.

The percussion in Design is very Zappa-esque.

I'm indifferent to the interview portions, although they seem executed poorly. They're mixed way too quietly and I'm not sure how it relates to a greater concept than "they just felt like putting it in there".

I Lost My Head has some really interesting stuff going on in the keyboard department.

Another solid Gentle Giant album. It was short, but once again I feel like my brain has been put in a knot after listening.

Title: Re: The Gentle Giant Discography: In'terview (1976)
Post by: splent on September 09, 2016, 10:48:19 PM
Did you do both vocal parts, or was someone else "the interviewer"?

("What are your plans for the future, etc?")

I did both
Title: Re: The Gentle Giant Discography: In'terview (1976)
Post by: Orbert on September 10, 2016, 07:52:28 AM
Did no one else in that band sing?  I can't remember now.  I always liked how you could cover both Derek's and Kerry's voices, but if there was ever a song that cried out for a second lead voice, this is it.

I forgot to mention that the part of the interviewer in "Interview" was sung by John Weather, making his lead vocal debut, so I'll mention it now. :p
Title: Re: The Gentle Giant Discography: In'terview (1976)
Post by: ChuckSteak on September 10, 2016, 08:56:54 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6gvtLa0R7kQ
Title: Re: The Gentle Giant Discography: In'terview (1976)
Post by: Orbert on September 10, 2016, 02:06:43 PM
Whoa, thanks for that!  Never heard that before.  I think the title of the vid goes a bit overboard, saying "Frank Zappa praises Gentle Giant" when they were really just mentioned once, and he just said that he'd heard some interesting things from them, but I suppose it's notable that they were the first band he thought of when asked that question.
Title: The Gentle Giant Discography: Playing the Fool (1977)
Post by: Orbert on September 15, 2016, 04:30:01 PM
I love live albums.  I love live music, and hearing what a band can do in "real time" to me is crucial to understanding who and what they are as musicians and as a band.  Then you have bands like Gentle Giant who regarded studio work and live performance as two different media.  It's not just evident in their recorded work; they've said so themselves on multiple occassions.  The studio version of a song is just the starting point, the blueprint from which the live performance evolves.

Here then are the "evolved" versions of many of their best and/or best-known songs.  And true to Gentle Giant's purist tendencies, there are no overdubs.  Although it is made up from different performances in different cities, it is clearly meant to represent a concert "warts and all", though there are very few warts.

The Official Live Gentle Giant: Playing the Fool (1977) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gzOvOXH6x3A&index=1&list=PL00492761B3F24ECC)

(https://i.imgur.com/ZZreAY7.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/9IKTQYW.jpg)


Gary Green:  Electric and Acoustic Guitars, Backing Vocals, Alto and Soprano Recorders, Percussion
Kerry Minnear: Keyboards, Backing Vocals, Cello, Vibes, Tenor Recorder, Percussion
Derek Shulman: Lead Vocals, Alto Saxophone, Soprano Recorder, Bass, Percussion
Ray Shulman: Bass, Backing Vocals, Violin, Acoustic Guitar, Soprano Recorder, Trumpet, Percussion
John Weathers: Drums, Backing Vocals, Vibes, Tambourine, Percussion

----------

1 Just the Same/Proclamation (11:13) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gzOvOXH6x3A)
2 On Reflection (6:20) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0y3xueAjiQ)
3 Excerpts from "Octopus" (15:35) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFHHbc3dGhU)
4 Funny Ways (8:35) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50_Ddhfbj_Q)
5 The Runaway/Experience (9:31) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvYV21OffoM)
6 So Sincere (10:22) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wyhkvllZZoA)
7 Free Hand (7:40) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=arOgkzf8m5k)
8 Sweet Georgia Brown (Breakdown in Brussels) (1:15) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kdIavPlWBc)
9 Peel the Paint/I Lost My Head (7:35) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyuvMLVwqgE)

----------

The album opens with the sounds of classical music playing as the audience enters and finds their seats.  Nothing too unusual about that, for prog bands anyway, except you might notice that the music (reeds, winds, and strings) is being played by the band itself.  It builds up to a frenzy, then suddenly stops and the band starts snapping their fingers, which is the start of Just the Same (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gzOvOXH6x3A), which similarly opened their album Free Hand.  The live version of this song isn't much different from the studio version, and there's no extraordinary instrumentation (not even the saxophone, as Derek would be pretty challenged to sing and play saxophone at the same time), but it's a catchy song and a good opener.  After a false ending, they go directly into "Proclamation", which is something like their second opener, as it was originally the first track on The Power and The Glory.  And even though it isn't listed that way, it's actually a medley of "Proclamation" and "Valedictory", which was the closing track on The Power and The Glory and is something of a reprise of "Proclamation".  So the opening track is actually a medley of three songs.

Gentle Giant discovered early on that Kerry Minnear could not sing lead vocals in a live setting.  His voice is beautiful, but very quiet, and because there were no fancy headset microphones back then, there was no way to mike him so that he could be heard while playing his myriad keyboards.  So they rearranged the songs where Kerry originally sang lead vocals, and On Reflection (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0y3xueAjiQ) is our first example of that.  They literally turned the song inside out.  The piece starts with an acoustic treatment of what was originally the bridge ("I'll remember the good things, how can you forget?") played on violin, cello, and two recorders.  Then comes the amazing four-part vocal fugue, originally the main theme.  They pull it off live quite brilliantly, even the second verse where there's a different instrument following each voice.  Then they go back to the bridge theme, this time played on electric instruments.

Excerpts from "Octopus" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFHHbc3dGhU) nearly defies description, other than to say that it's a medley of bits from the album Octopus.  But not all the bits are from Octopus; at least one bit is from another album and some parts are new anyway.  It starts with the familiar sound of a coin being tossed, and "The Boys in the Band" begins.  They then go into an acoustic guitar duet by Gary and Ray based on "Raconteur Troubadour" and which incorporates "Acquiring the Taste" before going into "Knots".  A keyboard break (dubbed the "Ocean Bridge") leads into "The Advent of Panurge", except that instead of the strange break in a foreign language, it's a recorder solo over the bass and drums.  Then it's a recorder duet, then a trio, then Ray finally sets the bass down and grabs a fourth recorder.  The quartet proceeds, accompanied by some percussion here and there courtesy of John Weathers, and ultimately they finish with the rest of "The Advent of Panurge".

I remember sitting in my dorm room in 1980 listening to this album, this piece in particular, and wondering what kind of minds could even come up with it.  By this time, my roommates and I had managed to find three or four other Gentle Giant albums, but had no idea what "Octopus" was.  This was pre-Internet, so there was no way to look up a band's catalogue, especially one as obscure as Gentle Giant.  One theory we had was that there was no "Octopus"; they simply came up with an amazing, bizarre piece of music and titled it "Excerpts from Octopus" because it sounded like bits and pieces from something.  It was years before one of us found a copy of Octopus, thus solving the mystery.

Funny Ways (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50_Ddhfbj_Q) proceeds mostly according to the studio version (with a few modifications so things flow better in a live setting), except for a totally psychotic vibes solo from Kerry.  So Kerry plays keyboards, cello, and vibes in this one.  I think this is my favorite track from this album, just because the vibes solo is so mind-blowing.

"This album was called In a Glass... House" and during the slight pause before Derek says "House" you can hear someone in the audience go "WAAAAHHHHH!!!" and it always cracks me up because he does it a couple of places on the album.  Live albums are awesome like that.  We're then treated to a nice little mashup of The Runaway  and Experience (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvYV21OffoM).  Normally I cringe a bit at bands that catch "medleyitis" later in their careers.  I'd much rather hear entire songs than bits and pieces of different things thrown together just to cover more songs, and it strikes me now that four of the nine tracks here are medleys, but other than "Excerpts from 'Octopus'", the songs are mostly intact, and since Gentle Giant has already shown a tendency to cut up and rearrange things for the live version anyway, it seems to fit right in.  Also, this was before I knew any of the original versions, so there was no "Oh man, they cut to a different song right before that one section."

So Sincere (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wyhkvllZZoA) starts off innocently enough, except for them omitting the oddly syncopated "So.. Sin... cere" probably it was impossible for even them to play and sing at the same time.  But once we get to the guitar solo, things start going off the rails (in a good way).  First the drums keep going while everyone else stops, but it's not a regular drum solo; you eventually realize that he's playing the same thing that the instruments were playing.  Same rhythm, same syncopation.  Then one by one, John is joined by the other members of the group and eventually we have what is referred to as The Five-Man Percussion Bash.  Other bands might have a drum solo, but only Gentle Giant gives you The Five-Man Percussion Bash.  Then suddenly all five of them are playing tuned percussion.  Eventually, they switch back to regular percussion, and the song ends.

The live version Free Hand (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=arOgkzf8m5k) is another one that they've turned inside out.  Instead of the mellow middle section, they go the other way and build up to a driving, rocking jam based on the opening riff.  Then a verse which is something like a capella except that it's accompanied by drums (it's hard to describe; you're better off just listening to it), then a guitar solo, then they come back for the final verse.  I love the contrasting middle section of the studio version, but I also love the totally rocked-up live version.

Sweet Georgia Brown (Breakdown in Brussels) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kdIavPlWBc) is named so because two songs into the show in Brussels, they lost power to the right side of the stage, including all the keyboards.  While electricians and roadies worked furiously to get things working again, Ray grabbed his violin, Gary grabbed an acoustic guitar, and they treated the audience to an impromptu interlude.

The closing medley of Peel the Paint/I Lost My Head (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyuvMLVwqgE) is, as noted upthread, made up of two "two-part" songs.  "Peel the Paint" and "I Lost My Head" originally had a mellow section followed by a more rocking section.  This medley fuses an instrumental version of the mellow part of "Peel the Paint" to the heavier part of "I Lost My Head", which originally closed the album Interview, and closes the live album from the tour as well.

----------

I could try to be unbiased regarding this album, but I would not succeed.  The was the first Gentle Giant album I ever heard, and I was completely blown away.  It was 1978, and it changed and shaped my concept of what it means to play live music, and the possibilities therein.  Back then, most bands only released one live album, maybe two if they were around for longer than average and/or they were really, really popular.  Also, there was no YouTube, and no home video, so no way to experience a band in a live setting other than actually going to a concert.  A band's live album therefore wasn't just the next best thing to seeing them live; it was the only alternative.  I played this one over and over, and it is still my favorite Gentle Giant album.

People come up to me after gigs raving about how I switched from keys to sax and back again during that one song (actually there are three) or whip out a recorder or bang a cowbell or something.  Even with my church band, I've arranged things for me to switch instruments during songs where feasible.  People go nuts over that kind of thing, but really, they need to see Gentle Giant.  Five guys playing 20 different instruments during the course of the night, every one of them brilliantly.  That is musicianship.  To say that this band inspired me as a budding musician would be an understatement.
Title: Re: The Gentle Giant Discography: Playing the Fool (1977)
Post by: Mosh on September 17, 2016, 11:45:08 PM
I'm not familiar enough with their music to figure out what they changed, but this is an enjoyable listen. I was really curious how well their music would translate live and I'm very impressed.

Loved the rearranged On Reflection.

Really enjoyed this one.
Title: Re: The Gentle Giant Discography: Playing the Fool (1977)
Post by: Orbert on September 18, 2016, 03:07:39 PM
:tup
Title: Re: The Gentle Giant Discography: In'terview (1976)
Post by: splent on September 18, 2016, 04:08:27 PM
Did no one else in that band sing?  I can't remember now.  I always liked how you could cover both Derek's and Kerry's voices, but if there was ever a song that cried out for a second lead voice, this is it.

I forgot to mention that the part of the interviewer in "Interview" was sung by John Weather, making his lead vocal debut, so I'll mention it now. :p

I did the majority of the singing but everyone sang at one point (on reflection) and Mike (the violinist/bassist) sang secondary.
Title: Re: The Gentle Giant Discography: Playing the Fool (1977)
Post by: Orbert on September 24, 2016, 09:07:02 PM
Guys, I just wanted to say that The Gentle Giant Discography will continue, but I've been busy as hell the past couple weeks.

Stay tuned, and take this opportunity to check out more live Gentle Giant.


Gentle Giant Live in Long Beach 1975 Full Concert (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=csA2qxbIfEU)

Gentle Giant German TV ZDF 1974-Live Brussels film studio (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RpvbRdSiXUY)
Title: Re: The Gentle Giant Discography: Playing the Fool (1977)
Post by: Orbert on September 24, 2016, 10:09:57 PM
Okay, maybe you don't have time for full concert vids.  But if there is one song you must see and believe, it's On Reflection (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6WSLG5r-wE).
Title: Re: The Gentle Giant Discography: Playing the Fool (1977)
Post by: Mladen on September 25, 2016, 02:59:22 AM
Thanks for the wonderful videos, looking forward to learning more about the more obscure albums that are coming up.
Title: Re: The Gentle Giant Discography: Playing the Fool (1977)
Post by: splent on September 25, 2016, 08:19:37 PM
Okay, maybe you don't have time for full concert vids.  But if there is one song you must see and believe, it's On Reflection (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6WSLG5r-wE).

 :metal
Title: The Gentle Giant Discography: The Missing Piece (1977)
Post by: Orbert on October 02, 2016, 08:47:11 PM
The Missing Piece (1977) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iqz6Wn3NB5s)

(https://imgur.com/meyDB4y.jpg)

(There are no musician credits, but they're something like this)

Gary Green:  Electric and Acoustic Guitars
Kerry Minnear: Keyboards, Vocals
Derek Shulman: Lead Vocals
Ray Shulman: Bass, 12-String Guitar, Percussion
John Weathers: Drums, Drum Machine, Percussion

----------

1 Two Weeks in Spain (3:07) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cviLIK7-yb8)
2 I'm Turning Around (3:59) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JuRtJvEVrUg)
3 Betcha Thought We Couldn't Do It (2:25) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=02_gZOql9Dg)
4 Who Do You Think You Are? (3:35) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzik5AsCMqM)
5 Mountain Time (3:20) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Dy7qrqA38Y)
6 As Old as You're Young (4:21) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GrOvehhsn8c)
7 Memories of Old Days (7:18) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzOo2iv2qBY)
8 Winning (4:18) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=np3rOc7wzwE)
9 For Nobody (4:05) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0yMDfgZSpw)
 
----------

Gentle Giant were at a turning point.  The live album Playing the Fool was recognized as an artistic success, but commercially it fared much better in The United States and Europe than in their home, Great Britain.  (It is not insignificant that Playing the Fool was recorded on their European tour.)

The music scene in the U.K. was changing.  Prog was suddenly quite out of fashion, in favor of New Wave and Punk.  These same trends would soon be echoed on this side of the Atlantic.  Overnight, the amazing musicianship and esoterica in which Gentle Giant prided themselves were scorned, seen as pretentious.  The public ear was ready for a change.

After working hard for six years to build a following, they were still frustrated by how little real success they had found at home, and what little they had seemed about to evaporate.  Their mantra of doing what they wanted to do artistically, popularity be damned, was being severely tested.

One could, however, argue that The Missing Piece was exactly the album that they wanted to do.  Ray and Derek were drawn to some of the newer music being made, both Punk and New Wave.  Kerry wasn't quite so eager to compromise their artistic vision, but, as always, Gentle Giant were a blend of many styles.  There was no reason why some newer influences couldn't be added to the mix.

The Missing Piece, then, is back-to-basics Gentle Giant.  Guitar, bass, keyboards, drums, and vocals.  No violins or cellos, saxophones or trumpets, recorders or tuned percussion.

In 1981, my roommates and I sat and played this album, the copy we'd found in a used record store in East Lansing, Michigan; and we could tell by the year of release, 1977, that it must be the next album right after the amazing live Playing the Fool.  We couldn't wait to hear what they'd done next.

Two Weeks in Spain (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cviLIK7-yb8) had us staring at each other in disbelief.  It sounded like them.  That's definitely Derek's distinctive voice.  The guitar and keyboards combined and played off of each other in that Gentle Giant way, and that sure sounds like John Weathers on drums, with that GG backbeat holding it all together.  Also, where in the heck is the downbeat?  Where is "one"?  The song sounds at first like a "simple" song in 4/4 but, as always, Gentle Giant is not as simple as it seems.

I remember grabbing the record jacket, looking for the musician credits, but there are none.  The sleeve was plain paper, but this was from a used record store, so it's possible that there were credits, lyrics, and/or pictures on the original sleeve.  We didn't know.  But we were sure of one thing: This was a different sound for Gentle Giant.  Stripped down.  "Commerical" was the word we used for "the opposite of Prog", but then "Prog" wasn't the word we used yet, either.  I believe it was still "Art Rock" at the time.

But really, what the hell was this?  How could the same five guys, on the very next album, create music so fundamentally different?

I'm Turning Around (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JuRtJvEVrUg) starts with Kerry Minnear's Wurlizter electric piano, and is a nice little "mellow" song with a chorus that's a bit less mellow, but the song overall is firmly in "ballad" territory.  And yes, the arrangement is quite simple compared to earlier Gentle Giant.  We already were bracing ourselves for an entire album of... well, "disappointment" is the easiest way to describe it.

Gentle Giant, ever self-aware and self-deprecating, come right out and tell us what's up.  Betcha Thought We Couldn't Do It (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=02_gZOql9Dg) boasts that this is the album (they assumed) no one thought they could make.  Of course it comes down to exactly what the question was.  Did we think they couldn't make a commercially viable album, one that could actually sell, maybe break the Top 100?  Or did we think that they couldn't channel their considerable musical talent into something still recognizable as Gentle Giant, but somehow radio friendly?

I betcha thought we couldn't do it.  And if you did we wouldn't try
I betcha thought we couldn't do it.  But if we didn't we would die

We built our house stone by stone.  Little help, we were on our own
Made the town, torn it down. Now you know, tell me how it feels

We've been waiting such a long long time.  To fit the pattern, fill the rhyme
Now we can't stick in our old ways.  Now it's out we'll see how you feel


So this is it.  Gentle Giant does Punk.  Now we knew what we were listening to.  It's not that we didn't think they could do it.  It's that we really didn't want them to even try.

Who Do You Think You Are? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzik5AsCMqM) takes us a step back towards... something.  It's bluesy, it's got some kind of dark shuffle thing going on.  The melody doesn't quite do what you think it will, not all the time anyway.  It's hard to describe this one.

The trend continues with Mountain Time (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Dy7qrqA38Y), which is reminiscent of mountain music, with a little bit of 30's jazz vocal thrown in, and a dash of blues and pinch of honky-tonk for flavor.  An odd tune, but catchy.

As Old as You're Young (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GrOvehhsn8c) is the other keyboard-driven Kerry song.  On earlier, more adventurous albums, this would be the simpler song which serves as a break from the insanity.  Interestingly, it serves a similar purpose here.

Memories of Old Days (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzOo2iv2qBY) is the one which catches the attention of long-term Gentle Giant fans.  Gary and Ray on their dueling acoustic guitars, the moody keyboard melody evoking children's tunes and times gone by, and lyrics mourning the passing of time and of innocence.  A beautiful, wistful piece, by far the longest track on the album, though that's not saying much.  Gentle Giant songs usually aren't long anyway, and on this album, with a focused effort to keep things simple, they're downright short.  So at just over seven minutes, this one's an epic by comparison.

It took me a long time to be able to listen to Winning (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=np3rOc7wzwE), and I'm still not sure how much I like it.  Once I got past all the percussion, which is very upfront and very "in-your-face", I could hear the guitars and keyboards intertwining, finishing each other's phrases, as with the puzzle-piece Gentle Giant of old.  This song is very much in the vein of older Gentle Giant in terms of innovation and just plain going for it; it's just not a side of them I've always cared for.

For Nobody (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0yMDfgZSpw) is, as is so often the case, the straight-on rocker to end the album.  On an album full of more stripped-down rock and roll, that's not really a shock.  But this is a good song, reminiscent in some ways of songs like "Mobile" from Free Hand (the break features odd vocals harmonies, with some kind of phasing of flanging effect on them), which was another great album closer.

And then it was over.  We'd turned the record over between "Mountain Time" and "As Old As You're Young", and maybe we'd noted that the second side was more Prog than the first side, though again we didn't use that term at the time.  All we knew is that Gentle Giant had "gone Commercial".  They had to change their sound or die, as they said so clearly in "Betcha Thought We Couldn't Do It".  So they changed their sound.  Still Gentle Giant, still the same five guys, the same lineup since In a Glass House.  But this was the new Gentle Giant.

Okay fine, I'll just say it:  I don't like this album.  But I said it before: There are no weak Gentle Giant albums.  How did I decide that?  I used the old tried-and-true method of asking myself  "What if this was the first album I'd ever heard from this band?"  The problem was that we had come to expect a certain something from Gentle Giant, and if it wasn't there, then something was missing.  The missing piece.

But if I'd never heard Gentle Giant before, whether or not I cared for the style right away (anything can grow on you after a while), I could not deny that these guys have chops.  And as much as this sounds like a stripped-down, back-to-basics album, there's a lot going on here.  Intricacies you just don't normally hear in Punk or New Wave.  A sophistication in the arrangements, even if that very sophistication is being used to make the songs seem simpler than they are.

Unfortunately, this album did not sell well, and was not received very well artistically, either.  Most longtime Gentle Giant fans were alienated by the drastic change in sound, and Gentle Giant didn't exactly make a lot of new fans, who had no idea what to make of this strange band.

Contemporaries Yes, Genesis, and others managed to change their sound to meet the end of 70's Prog and the rising New Wave and Punk.  Gentle Giant had a more awkward transition, and this was it.  An awkward, transitional album.
Title: Re: The Gentle Giant Discography: The Missing Piece (1977)
Post by: Mosh on October 03, 2016, 10:22:57 AM
It was a competent attempt at more commercial sounding rock music, but it was also very boring. It was lacking nearly everything that I enjoy about the band.
Title: Re: The Gentle Giant Discography: The Missing Piece (1977)
Post by: Mladen on October 04, 2016, 10:13:21 AM
This one isn't one of my favorites. The classic Gentle Giant sound is much better on the previous albums, and the commercial Gentle Giant sound is much better on the following album. Two weeks in Spain is fun, the last two songs are also really cool, but the rest is just... kind of there.
Title: Re: The Gentle Giant Discography: The Missing Piece (1977)
Post by: Orbert on October 04, 2016, 11:08:12 AM
A lot of very talented musicians say things like "Oh, anybody could write pop songs.  They're so simple and formulaic."  I'm not accusing Gentle Giant of ever saying such a thing; in fact, I would assume that they were smart enough to know better.  Simon Dupree and the Big Sound had, in fact, attained a small amount of commercial success via two singles, so they knew the difference between writing what you like and writing what the general public likes.

Still, I'm sure it came as a bit of a shock to them when, upon deciding to make a commercially viable album, they realized how difficult it really is.  It didn't help that by 1977, music had completely changed, so what little experience they had in pop music in 1969 was no longer applicable.

To me, this album has always sounded like Gentle Giant trying to write a pop album (which is exactly what it was) and, to put it bluntly, failing.

Also, I agree that the next album is better.
Title: Re: The Gentle Giant Discography: The Missing Piece (1977)
Post by: splent on October 04, 2016, 06:11:15 PM
I don't mind this album.

We did two weeks in Spain, for nobody, and as old as you're young, which was probably my favorite one I enjoyed singing with the group because I was 20 years younger than everyone :lol
Title: Re: The Gentle Giant Discography: The Missing Piece (1977)
Post by: ChuckSteak on October 06, 2016, 09:11:32 AM
I don't like anything that comes after Interview. The only song that saves this record and is also a classic is Memories Of Old Days.
Title: Re: The Gentle Giant Discography: The Missing Piece (1977)
Post by: Orbert on October 06, 2016, 11:16:56 AM
Maybe a bit harsh, but totally understandable.  I was the same way for a long time.  It was only after playing this album over and over during the past two weeks that I've come to "accept" a few of the others, but I don't actually like any other track on this album.

There's some good stuff coming, though.  In particular, I really like most of Civilian.  It's just hard to get past the fact that it's so different from their earlier material.
Title: Re: The Gentle Giant Discography: The Missing Piece (1977)
Post by: splent on October 07, 2016, 10:04:55 PM
Just FYI we only did one track off civilian and nothing off giant for a day (and I really don't like that album, but I like civilian) so that tells you my contributions coming up lol
Title: The Gentle Giant Discography: Giant for a Day (1978)
Post by: Orbert on November 26, 2016, 05:07:47 PM
Giant for a Day! (1978) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4d7gzcEC_Go)

(https://imgur.com/FSuQ6h2.jpg)

Gary Green:  Electric and Acoustic Guitars, Background Vocals
Kerry Minnear: Keyboards, Vocals, Some Bass
Derek Shulman: Lead and Background Vocals
Ray Shulman: Bass, 12-String Guitar, Background Vocals
John Weathers: Drums, Percussion, Lead Vocals on Track 7

----------

1 Words from the Wise (4:14) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3VFJQnpbds)
2 Thank You (4:50) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePq-dvQ2n7Y)
3 Giant for a Day! (3:49) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2nkmjlYyt0)
4 Spooky Boogie (2:55) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKX93wz-Ufs)
5 Take Me (3:39) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJSUPLazx8Y)
6 Little Brown Bag (3:26) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MpdqR34vkqM)
7 Friends (2:00) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jR5PK3Z--N4)
8 No Stranger (2:29) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwML9q_t1zM)
9 It's Only Goodbye (4:19) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_Pd9Nq3Un4)
10 Rock Climber (3:52) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5jKjmSVKpE)
 
----------

Gentle Giant continued to push towards a more accessible sound.  The strings and winds were long gone now, and also the odd time signatures, counterpoint, and esoteric musical influences which were once what made Gentle Giant so unique.  After struggling for nearly a decade, and clearly having given up on the idea that their music would change the face of pop music, they instead chose to change their own face.

The idea of inviting your fans to cut up the album cover and use as a mask seems incredibly ill-advised, but the band insists that they just thought it would be a fun thing.  They thought it would be fun if everyone cut them out and wore them to the concerts, and they could look out and see a bunch of Gentle Giant faces in the crowd.  I guess I can see that, but... really, guys?

There's some good stuff on Giant for a Day! but while The Missing Piece was a pop album by a prog band trying to make a pop album (and not quite succeeding), Giant for a Day! isn't even a very good pop album.  A few interesting ideas, but overall... ouch.

I have to give the guys credit.  They kept trying new things, and Words from the Wise (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3VFJQnpbds) starts with a Gentle Giant first: five-part a capella vocals.  The song itself is one of the better ones on the album.

Thank You (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePq-dvQ2n7Y) is a nice idea, but there's just not enough here to justify its nearly five-minute length.

Giant for a Day! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2nkmjlYyt0) absolutely shocked us when we first heard it back then.  We thought it was complete crap.  I was shuffling my iPod recently and this song came up and I didn't recognize it at first, and kinda liked it.  Some 80's New Wave thing I liked that I'd forgotten I'd downloaded, apparently.  I have a lot of music on my iPod.  Then the vocals came in and I just went "Holy sh!t" because it was the same song that had disgusted me back then, and I thought it was cool now.  In retrospect, it was just a little bit ahead of its time.  It's almost like early 80's EuroPop with the synths and stripped-down production, but people weren't ready for it yet in 1978.  It's now the highlight of the album for me.

Spooky Boogie (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKX93wz-Ufs) is an instrumental, a fair outing, though nothing special.  A couple of catchy riffs put together, with apparently nowhere to go.

Take Me (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJSUPLazx8Y) is another catchy idea that they didn't seem to know what to do with.  The chorus is meant to be a big singalong kind of thing, but it's just too mediocre sounding.

Yet another riff-driven, catchy, yet ultimately vapid song, Little Brown Bag (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MpdqR34vkqM) opens what was originally Side Two, and has the decency to not overstay its welcome.

I'm sure some people really like this song, and overall I guess it's not particularly offensive, but Friends (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jR5PK3Z--N4) is, for me, just about the lowest point in the Gentle Giant catalogue.  Written and sung by drummer John Weathers, it is the result of what was clearly an open-door policy regarding compositions.  That or they were either desperate for material, or just didn't care any more, because every other entry in the Gentle Giant discography was written by one or more Shulmans and/or Kerry Minnear.  That John had written a song, submitted it for inclusion on the album, and it was accepted and included, is admirable.  And it's not a horrible song.  It's just more what you'd expect from a junior high kid writing his first song, not included on the tenth studio album from an established recording act.

No Stranger (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwML9q_t1zM) is apparently such a forgettable song that I can't even remember enough of it to write something about it, and i just listened to it.  I know the chorus is really repetitive, and there's a gratuitous key change towards the end, but that's about it.

It's Only Goodbye (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_Pd9Nq3Un4) makes me sad.  It's another song that seems like a good idea, like it might appeal to teenagers because it sounds like it was written by a lovesick teenager, but to me it's too obviously a gifted composer trying to write a love song.  And that's exactly what it is; Kerry Minnear's attempt to write a love song.

As usual, they close the album with a rocker, Rock Climber (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5jKjmSVKpE), an uptempo, driving, yet completely forgettable song.

----------

I've insisted up until this point that there are no weak Gentle Giant albums.  I honestly may have to revisit that position.  Widely regarded as the weakest Gentle Giant album, Giant for a Day! is, in my opinion, their lowest point.  I've been trying for a month and a half to write something positive about this album, and this is what you're getting, so believe me, this is it.  Full disclosure: I just want to get the writeup over at this point.

But as always, I invite you to click the links, listen to the songs yourselves.  I really would like to hear from people who like anything they hear here.
Title: Re: The Gentle Giant Discography: Giant for a Day (1978)
Post by: Mladen on November 27, 2016, 03:01:01 AM
I like this album a lot.

None of it sounds forced, contrived or out of character to me. The band transformed into the pop rock style as if they've been playing for 10 years. It sounds experienced, well formed and focused.

The title track is tremendous, it features a tense build up, intricate guitar harmonies and a catchy chorus. Lyrical content aside, the slower tracks like It's only goodbye and Thank you are melodic and enjoyable with such guitar playing that proves we're still listening amazing musicians and not just an ordinary pop rock one-hit-wonders. Spooky Boogie is a neat, brief instrumental, and another hidden jam is No stranger, with it's hooky transition from chorus to verses (not vice-versa, mind you), and the modulation overwhelms me with how beautiful it is. Oh yeah, Little brown bag and Words from the wise are solid as well.

EDIT: Having seen that I've got carried away commenting on almost all of the songs, I'll share my thoughts on the remaining three songs as well. Take me and Rock climber strike me as slightly generic and unimaginative songs, while Friends is just... kind of ugly. But overall, this is a very enjoyable listen, I love listening to it all the way through every now and then, I return to it more often than to some classic GG albums.
Title: Re: The Gentle Giant Discography: Giant for a Day (1978)
Post by: Orbert on November 27, 2016, 08:09:54 AM
That's what I wanted to hear.  I remember not liking this album at all for a long time.  Like, ever.  Then when I first re-reviewed it a couple months ago in preparation for this writeup, I thought it was okay.  "Words from the Wise" was better than I'd remembered.  The title track, as mentioned, is really pretty cool.  Some of the others were not as horrible as I remembered.  "Friends" is still bad.  The rest just seemed like single ideas that were made into songs, short and to the point.  I suppose that's what most pop songs are, but I guess I was expecting more than that.  When Genesis went pop in the 80's, most of their songs were single ideas fleshed out into songs, same as here, but if you dig deeper, there's a lot going on in the arrangements.  Same with Yes.  Here, they completely embraced pop sensibilities; there's nothing more than meets the ear.  I guess that's what I find disappointing.  Most of the songs aren't bad, just nothing special.
Title: Re: The Gentle Giant Discography: Giant for a Day (1978)
Post by: Mladen on November 28, 2016, 09:58:57 AM
Those are some very good points. Yes kind of pushed the boundaries of pop music to an extent with 90125, whereas Gentle Giant just made a straight-forward pop rock album. But hey, that's what they were going for with this one. The one Gentle Giant album that was pop but also slightly experimental and adventurous was Civilian, but as far as I'm concerned, that experiment failed. More on that latter, probably.  ;D
Title: Re: The Gentle Giant Discography: Giant for a Day (1978)
Post by: Mosh on December 06, 2016, 04:55:30 PM
Not much to say about this one. It doesn't even sound like Gentle Giant at this point. Just your generic below average radio rock.
Title: Re: The Gentle Giant Discography: Giant for a Day (1978)
Post by: splent on December 08, 2016, 05:27:50 PM
The only track we did from this was It's Only Goodbye. I agree that it's sad but it's a pretty good song. That and Words From The Wise are the only tracks are really enjoy on this album.
Title: Re: The Gentle Giant Discography: Giant for a Day (1978)
Post by: Serah Farron on December 08, 2016, 07:18:45 PM
Following. :tup

When I was introduced to progressive rock/metal, I tried delving deep into their roots. Stumbled upon Gentle Giant by change and haven't fully grasped them yet, but I know this will help. :)
Title: Re: The Gentle Giant Discography: Giant for a Day (1978)
Post by: Orbert on December 08, 2016, 09:22:38 PM
Welcome, Serah!  There's only one studio album left, but obviously you should feel free to go back over everything as often as you like.

I might get into some of the post-mortem collections and videos and stuff.
Title: Re: The Gentle Giant Discography: Giant for a Day (1978)
Post by: Serah Farron on December 08, 2016, 09:35:03 PM
Thanks Orbert! Am looking forward to it!
Title: The Gentle Giant Discography: Civilian (1980)
Post by: Orbert on December 20, 2016, 10:13:15 PM
Civilian (1980) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Wm62yT_sW4&list=PLB2C1671248CD1ED9)

(https://imgur.com/6d4vL8i.jpg)

Gary Green: Guitar
Kerry Minnear: Keyboards, Cocals
Derek Shulman: Vocals
Ray Shulman: Bass, Acoustic Guitar, Backing Vocals
John Weathers: Drums, Backing Vocals

----------

1 Convenience (Clean and Easy) (3:13) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Wm62yT_sW4&index=1&list=PLB2C1671248CD1ED9)
2 All Through the Night (4:20) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMIFARsJiDc&list=PLB2C1671248CD1ED9&index=2)
3 Shadows on the Street (3:18) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ah_vIkJxY5I&list=PLB2C1671248CD1ED9&index=3)
4 Number One (4:38) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3LYTlN_o10&list=PLB2C1671248CD1ED9&index=4)
5 Underground (3:47) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4ryIJsW1V8&index=5&list=PLB2C1671248CD1ED9)
6 I Am a Camera (3:32) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8bpB-l4sVk&index=6&list=PLB2C1671248CD1ED9)
7 Inside Out (5:51) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag63YldkAng&index=7&list=PLB2C1671248CD1ED9)
8 It's Not Imagination (4:03) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VGfHAaVrgvE&index=8&list=PLB2C1671248CD1ED9)
 
----------

Giant for A Day! did not sell as well as the band had hoped.  Gentle Giant's popularity -- more of a cult following, actually -- continued to grow, but very slowly.  Stymied by their continued inability to break into the mainstream, yet conceded to the reality that their brand of esoteric rock was simply never going to become popular, the band could think of no better course than to continue with their stripped-down approach to writing and instrumentation, and hope for a hit single.  They seemed to be making some inroads in the United States.  A hit single there could lead to album sales and increased exposure, and that could be all the break they needed.  After ten years and as many studio albums, they were still looking for that break.

Derek Shulman had effectively become the band's manager.  He convinced the band to move to Los Angeles to get a better feel for what it was that they were trying to do.  1979 was the first year of the band's existence in which they did not release an album.  After the move and subsequent acclimation period, they spent five months writing what would become Civilian, released in February of 1980.  This was their last shot.  It was truly do or die for them at this point.

I like this album a lot.  Certainly the most of the three later, vocals-guitar-keys-bass-drums albums, and more than many of the earlier albums.  It is consistently clean and tight, yet overall hard-hitting throughout.  Some of the Gentle Giant of olde was back, and the feeling of desperation in the band translated into an immediacy and intensity not felt on a Gentle Giant album in quite some time.


Civilian is not a concept album per se, but as always, the songs reflect a lot of what the guys were experiencing and thinking about at the time.  Convenience (Clean and Easy) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Wm62yT_sW4) is a direct commentary on American consumerism, the mentality and culture which promotes excess and waste.  Its frenetic beat conveys the fast pace of life in Los Angeles in the late 70's.

All Through the Night (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMIFARsJiDc) is another rocker, but of the slow, driving type.  The theme is the drudgery of working all night just to pay the bills.  I love the main guitar riff.
 
After the opening one-two punch, Shadows on the Street (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ah_vIkJxY5I) slows things down.  You guessed it; it's the mellow Kerry piece.  The ubiquitous keyboard riff is like a major-keyed version of the "Free Hand" riff.  I remember playing this album in the car with my son one time, and he saw the title and said it sounded scary.  "Shadows on the Street" could be scary.  But no.  It's a quiet, reflective tune, evoking an empty street at 3 in the morning, and the shadows from the streetlights, high and far away on every corner.

Number One (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3LYTlN_o10) closes the original Side One of the album with another rocker.  The band members have widely varying feelings about this album, having all gone through upheaval and having dealt with it to varying degrees of success.  John Weathers considers it a strong album, however, and this is one of his favorite tracks.  And it shows; his performance on this song is great, and keeps it driving.

I turned the record over, and when it got to the chorus of Underground (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4ryIJsW1V8), I realized that I'd heard the song before.  But it was an almost deja-vu feeling.  I realized that I was standing in my bedroom in my parents house, and the last time I'd heard this song, I was standing in almost the exact same place a year before, listening to the same stereo.  But during that year, I'd graduated from high school, gone off to "summer camp" (ask me about it some time), dropped out, returned home, started at Michigan State that fall, and dropped out in the spring.  I first listened to this album in early 1981.  I was practically a different person when it had come out in 1980, when the local radio station had played this song as some kind of thing featuring new music.  The boys had done it!  Someone played one of their songs on the radio, and a year later, someone out there listening recognized it.  Unfortunately, me buying all of Gentle Giant's albums between 1978 and 1981 did not save the band.  In fact, they had already broken up by the the time I bought this album.

Okay, here's the problem with I Am a Camera (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8bpB-l4sVk), and it has nothing to do with the song itself.  Well, it kinda does.  Let's back up.  My favorite band (of all time!) Yes had broken up, but then they surprisingly got back together, replacing the irreplaceable Jon Anderson and Rick Wakeman with... The Buggles.  You know, "Video Killed the Radio Star"?  Anyway, the new Yes released an album called Drama which was actually really good, but my least favorite song on that album is easily "Into the Lens" because of its ridiculous refrain "I am camera, I am a camera, camera camera".  So I was kinda sick of that phrase, and here's another song likely written about the same time and recorded about the same time and it's called "I am a Camera".  I do kinda like this song, but it also bugs me.

Inside Out (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag63YldkAng) is another slow driver.  I get what they were going for with this one, and the atmosphere is cool and the harmonies are great, but it never quite works for me.  Probably because it too has a silly refrain "Do I need lifting?"  Seriously, how can any teenaged boy say the words "Do I need lifting?" with a straight face?

It's Not Imagination (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VGfHAaVrgvE) is, as always, the rocker to close out the album.  As the album opened with a song directly commenting on American life, so does it close.  No, it's not imagination.  Everything is about sex.  Sex appeals.  Sex makes things popular.  The thought of it, the images of it, everything about it.  We like sex.  It's everywhere.  It's not imagination.

The album closes with a very short track, the words "That's all there is".  Each word is taken from a different song and the four are spliced together.  "That's" is from "I am a Camera", "All" is from "All Through the Night", "There" is from "Heroes No More" (unreleased, included as a bonus track on some CDs), and "Is" is from "Inside Out".

----------

I know a lot of people don't like this album, but most Gentle Giant fans feel that they went out on a high note, or at least a relative high note.  They alienated a lot of their fans (which weren't particularly numerous to begin with) when they switched to the more streamlined approach starting with Interview, and the newer sound, simpler, more Punk, or New Wave, or American, or something, just didn't gain a lot of new fans.

Kerry was married now and had a wife and young daughter back in England who he couldn't wait to get back to.  Ray never really liked America and was also ready to go back.  Derek had felt that the move was necessary.  John was on board, and presumably Gary as well, as they both stayed in the area and continued to work in the music biz for years afterward.  But the writing was on the wall.  The new album was not the big break they had hoped for (sound familiar?).  It had been over 10 years, and they were Zero for Eleven (twelve if you count the live album, considered a classic now but not a great seller at the time).

Derek and Kerry met for lunch one day and found that each was considering what he was afraid to suggest to the other.  That it was time to end the great experiment which was Gentle Giant.  They agreed that it was the best thing, and announced it to the rest of the band.  This was the summer of 1980, only months after the release of Civilian.  Gentle Giant was over.
Title: Re: The Gentle Giant Discography: Civilian (1980)
Post by: Mladen on December 21, 2016, 04:16:56 AM
This is what a band break-up album sounds like to me. Blandness, disinterest and awkwardness are all this album has to offer. I wish I could put more words into this post, but I guess I care about this album as much as the band did. It's truly not a memorable or interesting way to end the band. Not all groups can go out with a bang, though.
Title: Re: The Gentle Giant Discography: Civilian (1980)
Post by: splent on December 21, 2016, 06:24:47 AM
 We did all through the night from this album when I was in the tribute band, and it was always on my favorites. I wish that kept going, because there was  promise there. This is right around the time when Genesis started hitting the mainstream, after many years of more progressive style music, so I'm wondering if they had kept adding a couple more albums, if they would have eventually hit the main stream. Unfortunately, we will never now. Fortunately, Derek  remained in the music industry and eventually hubs to sign dream theater, so all ends well.

 And I thought I was the only one who had that problem with I am a camera!
Title: Re: The Gentle Giant Discography: Civilian (1980)
Post by: Orbert on December 23, 2016, 03:27:51 PM
Wow, so that's it?

Okay, I realize that much of it is my fault for letting this discography go on for so long.  I got super busy at work, plus...

You know what?  I'll save you the excuses.  I even kinda knew this would happen, and tried like hell to avoid it.  I tried not to lose enthusiasm for this discography write-up, but life had other ideas.  And honestly, the drop in quality after the peak period (which I consider the Free Hand, The Power and The Glory period) is incredible.  I still maintain that there is a lot of good music even on the later albums, and I'm honestly surprised that the final album is held in such contempt here.  I think it's a great album, and that they mustered one last time and went out with a bang.


Looking back over their entire catalog, I've come to the conclusion that I don't like Gentle Giant overall as much as I thought I did.  I absolutely fell in love with their live album Playing the Fool.  To this day, it is one of my favorite live albums.  The musical versatility is incredible.  From there, I of course picked up Free Hand, the tour from which Playing the Fool was taken.  I love that one, too.  But go too far back, and I find that Gentle Giant clearly valued experimentation and originality over accessibility.  A lot of it is kinda weird, and some of it really is just too weird even for me.  That's fine; it was actually their stated goal to try to broaden the definition of Pop Music.  It just seems to me more like the mission statement of a young, idealistic band with little idea how the real world works.  And of course, that's exactly what it was.  Once the reality set in and they found that they really did need to make their music more accessible if they hoped to sell albums in any numbers, they shifted gears, but it turned out that writing good pop music is not as easy as most musicians would like to believe.
Title: Re: The Gentle Giant Discography: Civilian (1980)
Post by: Mosh on December 23, 2016, 07:31:02 PM
Wow, so that's it?
Should've had email notifications for this thread, just now saw this update.

The last album left such a poor taste in my mouth that I'm not totally sure I want to listen to the followup, but I'll take your word for it that it's an improvement. I also enjoy the commentary to go along with the music.
Title: Re: The Gentle Giant Discography: Civilian (1980)
Post by: Mladen on December 24, 2016, 06:31:06 AM
Sorry, Orbert, but the responses to this album on this page perfectly mirror how nobody cared for Gentle Giant by the time Civilian came out. Who knows, maybe it is a fine album that deserves more attention, I would say the same thing for Giant for a day, but the fact of the matter is that the latter day Gentle Giant stuff will never gain appreciation, no matter how many more years pass.
Title: Re: The Gentle Giant Discography: Civilian (1980)
Post by: Prog Snob on December 24, 2016, 07:45:38 AM
I am not too familiar with their later stuff either, but I think, at least for the purpose of keeping the discussion flowing, I'm going to give it a listen right now. I always said I wanted to explore them further but it's so hard to go past the 70s material when it's so damn brilliant.
Title: Re: The Gentle Giant Discography: Civilian (1980)
Post by: Orbert on December 24, 2016, 08:38:22 AM
Sorry, Orbert, but the responses to this album on this page perfectly mirror how nobody cared for Gentle Giant by the time Civilian came out.

Good point.  I literally had to force myself to write the last entry, as I could think of half a dozen things I'd rather be doing.
Title: Re: The Gentle Giant Discography
Post by: Orbert on May 03, 2021, 09:37:56 PM
I just heard about this earlier today.

Gentle Giant release video for new Steven Wilson remix of Just The Same (https://www.loudersound.com/news/gentle-giant-release-video-for-new-steven-wilson-remix-of-just-the-same)

Free Hand, my favorite Gentle Giant studio album and their most popular overall, is finally getting the Steven Wilson treatment.  He's already done Octopus and The Power and The Glory, which are also excellent, but Free Hand is the one that started it all for me.  To me, it's their Leftoverture or A Night at the Opera; the one where the band finally figured out how to channel everything that made them unique and special into something also accessible and even catchy.

The video itself, I'm not thrilled about, but it's pretty cool.  The cutout animation style kept reminding me of Terry Gilliam's animations for Monty Python's Flying Circus, but Gentle Giant are British, after all.
Title: Re: The Gentle Giant Discography
Post by: jammindude on May 03, 2021, 10:26:29 PM
I own Octopus but I never picked up TPATG. I did see the announcement for free hand, and it is on my “first day buy” list.
Title: Re: The Gentle Giant Discography
Post by: Mladen on May 04, 2021, 07:42:23 AM
Honestly, if Steven remixes Interview, I'll buy it right away. That's one underrated album right there.
Title: Re: The Gentle Giant Discography
Post by: Fritzinger on May 05, 2021, 04:09:41 AM
I preordered Steven's remix for Free Hand on red vinyl. In anticipation, I put on Steven's remix of Octopus and my reissue of Acquiring The Taste. What a great band... I think, contrary to the popular opinion, I like Acquiring more than Octopus. Melodies are just a little stronger on that one. But both are fantastic albums. And Octopus has one of the few Gentle Giant "ballads" (that I know of), with Think Of Me With Kindness. Just a beautiful song that to me sounds more like Van der Graaf Generator than Gentle Giant.

I don't know all Gentle Giant albums yet as I always wanted to take my time with them. Whenever I approach an album by them I haven't heard yet, I usually listen to it a few dozen times at least before I move on to another one. I don't know Free Hand yet, so I'm looking forward to the reissue! Maybe until then I will listen to Three Friends, another GG album I don't know so well yet.