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General => General Discussion => Topic started by: MetalJunkie on May 12, 2016, 11:55:15 PM
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So I've been friends with this guy for several years now, and he's like a brother to me at this point. Some of you might remember about a year ago (holy fuck, really?) I married him to his wife.
I remember shortly after I first became friends with him he ran into a little bit of trouble. He was short one one of his bills or something. Another of my friends and I decided to kick in and help him pay it. No harm, no foul. Shit happens. Just a few weeks after this we were working on putting some pallets away and he said something along the lines of "Yeah I don't even know what I'm gonna eat, I don't have any money until payday." The fuck? We just gave you like a hundred bucks to get back on track. His reason was "Scarlet and I bought something that I guess didn't clear immediately, it just now went through."
Another example: his electric bill is structured like mine. Instead of receiving a monthly bill based on usage, it works like a pike pass. I put money on the account, say 25 bucks, and a certain amount comes out every day at 11 in the morning, based on my usage. The first time he and his wife moved into their current apartment and switched to that plan, I told my roommate "I give it three months until their electric gets shut off."
Nearly three months to the fucking DAY I get a phone call. "Hey bro, can I borrow 25 dollars to get the electric turned back on? I'll give you money on payday."
/facepalm
I could go on and on about times that things "just now went through" or "We had to go negative to pay this" or phone calls I've received "Fuck! Our electric's off!"
I try not to be too judgmental, because he reminds me of me when I was 18 or 19 (though he's 25), but what the hell can I do? I'm obviously not gonna parent him and lecture him on shit he already knows to begin with. Also, he's a dear friend to me, so I'm not going to not give him the money if I have it.
Here's the kicker: this whole thread was prompted by him texting me today asking if he could borrow 40 bucks to make his car payment tomorrow. They have a baby due in three months. They've been approved for SNAP and other benefits, but damn... they are NOT ready for a kid. They can't even handle themselves because they spend so irresponsibly.
Another example that made me want to punch him in the throat: He works at Sam's Club and, depending on the store performance, employees get a bonus every year based on the store's profit. I think his was around 600 or so. He told me about that and I told him "Great! Bro you should use that to get a month or two ahead on some of your bills so things aren't so tight."
Nope. He bought a fucking 50 inch LG TV. He swore up and down he needed his upgrade sooo bad. He could barely see his old TV, he has to sit on the floor to do so, doing that hurts his back, yada yada yada.
ANYway. Sorry this is so fragmented and kind of random. I'm just typing my thoughts as they come out. I try not to be too hard on him because I've been there in that position. Almost identical situation, financially. I even hung out with an older, wiser friend who told me to cut that shit out. I didn't listen and it took years for me to get my act together.
I think I'm going to talk to him about it. I guess. I don't hate giving him money, but I hate that I have to, if that makes sense.
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Doesn't sound like a case of some bad luck. Dude isn't gonna learn if people keep footing the bill.
Guy is 25, he's responsible for himself. Let him figure it out.
On one hand, that's my thought.
On the other hand, when I was dumb like that, I was fortunate that I had people positioned in my life to help me out despite my stupidity.
Does he give you the impression that he will figure it out the way you did?
I don't know. Maybe? He's a pretty level-headed guy, aside from his financial decisions.
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Sounds like you've made up your mind. Do what you feel is right.
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Sounds like you've made up your mind. Do what you feel is right.
Also, I ninja-quoted you when I remade the thread.
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It's frustrating. As someone who is good with money myself (I always make sure to have money left each month, just in case something unexpected comes up) I am surrounded by people who are not good with money at all. My dad is somewhat of a shopaholic who uses the mantra "It's nice to spend some money on yourself". While that may be true, the problem is that his area of interest is so big. He buys a lot of CDs each month, but on top of that he also buys a lot of unnecessary items for the home. Like throwing out a good functioning radio because he found a "cooler one". Usually money gets really tight halfway into the month and I have to help him to make it to the next paycheck. My sister likes to spend her money in the first weekend and usually does some crazy shopping. My mom spends it on alcohol and her friend.
But I guess the most relatable is my closest IRL friend who has always struggled with money. Whenever we do something, like hang out for a weekend or go the cinema, it's almost like an understanding that I have to pay for us both. For the most part I'm OK with it because I don't think of it as a big deal and I generally go around economically anyways, but sometimes it's really frustrating if I have a month with more expenses and I'm still expected to pay for him when we hang out. I've borrowed him money a few times and have gotten it back, but sometimes I also say no. For example, he wanted to borrow 50 bucks recently and while in theory I could go around, I said no, because I don't wanna live like a hobo for 2 weeks. I still have my expenses and it's nice to have a buffert of money.
So I can totally relate.
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If it was me, I'd stop enabling him. Now. So long as he thinks he's got some kind of safety net (in you, or others), it's unlikely he'll change his patterns on his own. And you're right... if he/wife can't get their shit together on their own, parenthood ought to be grand. Now is the time to stop this, before he comes to you with "dude, can I get $50 for diapers/formula?" Force him to live with consequences (no electric) of his own dumb-ass decisions. Seeing his kid to go without food is a little tougher.
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If it was me, I'd stop enabling him. Now. So long as he thinks he's got some kind of safety net (in you, or others), it's unlikely he'll change his patterns on his own. And you're right... if he/wife can't get their shit together on their own, parenthood ought to be grand. Now is the time to stop this, before he comes to you with "dude, can I get $50 for diapers/formula?" Force him to live with consequences (no electric) of his own dumb-ass decisions. Seeing his kid to go without food is a little tougher.
I'd agree with this. If he sees you as a soft touch, then you're not going to help him to be self-reliant, if he knows he can hit you for cash every time he gets a bit stuck. Having a child is a major shock to the system, so if you're talking to him, this could be a good angle of approach. Now's a good time for him to get himself organised, and figure out how they will pay the bills and budget for everything a baby needs. It's going to be a big adjustment, so the more stability they can have at home, the better it's going to be for the child.
Everybody likes treating themselves, but when kids come along, you have to be prepared to sacrifice some of the "nice to haves" for the "must haves".
Good luck though - I'm sure it's not easy. :tup
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If it was me, I'd stop enabling him. Now. So long as he thinks he's got some kind of safety net (in you, or others), it's unlikely he'll change his patterns on his own. And you're right... if he/wife can't get their shit together on their own, parenthood ought to be grand. Now is the time to stop this, before he comes to you with "dude, can I get $50 for diapers/formula?" Force him to live with consequences (no electric) of his own dumb-ass decisions. Seeing his kid to go without food is a little tougher.
This, without a doubt.
It's not on you if he has no money to pay his electric or whatever. It's very possible that he will end the friendship if you decide to stop giving him money, but if that happens, I would ask yourself, who needs a friend who only wants to remain friends if I keep bailing him out because he sucks with money? I totally get wanting to help a friend, since I am sure I would feel the same way, but it's clear that he will mooch off of you as long as you keep giving him money. Stop it now and let the chips fall where they may.
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Man, that sucks. I feel bad for the kid. At least your friend can get utilities paid for now (still on your dime through taxes, but whatever). I'm not really sure what kind of advice to offer as every situation is different. Has he been good about paying you back at least? If I was lending a friend a couple hundreds bucks over a period of time and never got any back, I'd stop that practice real quick. If he was always good about paying me back, I'd probably be a little more forgiving. And if it is the difference between his kid eating or not, I'd personally go buy the formula rather than trust him with the cash.
Maybe have an honest conversation with him about it? Sounds like you guys are close enough to have that kind of chat. Maybe offer to help him financially in ways that don't involve you directly giving him money? A simple spread sheet does wonders. I've built some nice ones that compare and graph my utility usage and bills from month to month and year over year. It's great for predicting what I can expect to pay at any given time across my utilities and other expenses. If I see that July and August are 15% higher than my monthly average, I know weeks in advance that I need to put a few extra hundred dollars aside.
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It sounds dickish on the surface, but the best thing you can do for your friend is follow jingle's advice. I'd add that if I were you, I'd warn him first. "This is absolutely, positively the last time I lend you money, bro. Time you figured this shit out for yourself."
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What jingle.boy said. Most importantly this:
Force him to live with consequences (no electric) of his own dumb-ass decisions.
If it was once in a while, sure you help a friend out. Any of us would, if a friend came to us once, MAYBE twice, in not so serious financial need. Continuing to be his long term safety net will ensure that he never changes. The more times he goes a few days without electricity, the more likely he'll learn that he needs to find a way to ensure that it doesn't happen again.
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It sounds dickish on the surface, but the best thing you can do for your friend is follow jingle's advice. I'd add that if I were you, I'd warn him first. "This is absolutely, positively the last time I lend you money, bro. Time you figured this shit out for yourself."
I can see your point, but in some regards, this just might be a waste of coin on MJ's part. I suspect the friend won't believe it, and will only "get" it once the tap is shut off. Actions > Words.
You wouldn't give an addict one last drink/hit during the intervention.
Clean break. No warnings necessary.
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I agree with the "tough love" approach. He has to get his shit together, and that won't happen as long as he knows he can get a bailout.
There's a slight chance that having a kid will be his wakeup call. I've seen friends of mine go from irresponsible losers to mostly responsible people almost overnight after having a kid. Remember, responsibility is not a function of intellect; it's a function of maturity, and nothing forces you to grow up faster than having progeny to care for. You can be smart as all hell, you can know that doing something is a bad idea, but having the willpower and maturity to do the smart thing instead is a different matter.
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Just piling on now, but you are WELL beyond "helping a friend". You are an enabler.
I wouldn't give him another dime; however, I would give him a copy of Dave Ramsey's book (I forget the title). Another option is to speak to the wife if you can. I'm all about having the gadgets as well, but that fucking TV is in no way shape or form going to feed the kid when it comes (he won't even get half his money back from a pawn shop if the shit really hit the fan).
You have to realize that as an enabler, you are now PART of the problem and you are HURTING him not helping him.
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Have to agree with the consensus here. Nothing wrong with helping a friend/relative in a tough spot (I've certainly been the beneficiary of that in the past), but if the tough spot is a self-induced one, that shit won't change until it HAS to change.
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You didn't mention how old the guy is. That matters. When I was a youngster and first shacking up, I and my old lady spent money foolishly. We also had a good safety net with all of our folks. Despite having that safety net I learned to be damned responsible with my money. Part of this is just being young and dumb. I'll also point out that motherhood is likely to bring about a change in their behavior. That good ole maternal instinct will hopefully kick in and put a stop to frivolous purchases. Is this Scarlet (seriously?) character who would sign off on buying a new TV when she knows the little shit needs diapers and whatnot? Most wouldn't.
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he reminds me of me when I was 18 or 19 (though he's 25)
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You are an enabler.
Yup. You need to put the foot down for his own benefit and for your own wallet. He will never learn how to manage his money if he is constantly shown (and learns) that his friend will help him out everytime he mismanages. It's only going to get worse when he has the kid. If he is such a good friend, sit down and tell him this, as friends, he needs to be more responsible and he is officially cut off.
I had a friend who was bad with money. Had no job, did drugs, lived off his parents... but he was a child hood friend and a ton of fun to be around. Eventually he got caught in his lies about why he couldn't pay me $50 back and I ended our friendship (there's more to the story about how he duped me which is the real reason more so than just 50 bucks). These types of people can turn into leeches if you keep feeding them.
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It sounds dickish on the surface, but the best thing you can do for your friend is follow jingle's advice. I'd add that if I were you, I'd warn him first. "This is absolutely, positively the last time I lend you money, bro. Time you figured this shit out for yourself."
I can see your point, but in some regards, this just might be a waste of coin on MJ's part. I suspect the friend won't believe it, and will only "get" it once the tap is shut off. Actions > Words.
You wouldn't give an addict one last drink/hit during the intervention.
Clean break. No warnings necessary.
After thinking more carefully, I agree. I also suspect that El Barto's prediction about motherhood kicking in is also likely.
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I'm gonna jump in the bandwagon and say that guy needs some tough love. I would tell the guy no more money is coming from me but I'd also offer my help in getting his numbers straight and teaching him how to plan. That way you won't come out as such a dick.
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Maybe have an honest conversation with him about it? Sounds like you guys are close enough to have that kind of chat. Maybe offer to help him financially in ways that don't involve you directly giving him money? A simple spread sheet does wonders. I've built some nice ones that compare and graph my utility usage and bills from month to month and year over year. It's great for predicting what I can expect to pay at any given time across my utilities and other expenses. If I see that July and August are 15% higher than my monthly average, I know weeks in advance that I need to put a few extra hundred dollars aside.
An honest conversation sounds good in theory but in my experience these types of people never really change. When you try to confront them they tend to get incredibly defensive and try to flip the script like you're the one letting them down and they don't realize how hollow their "I'll pay you back" rings.
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Question: when he says "I'll pay you back" does he actually pay you back?
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Question: when he says "I'll pay you back" does he actually pay you back?
Yes, he does. He's really good about that, actually.
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Well, that's a point in his favor. :tup
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I say start charging him interest. Either he'll get his shit together or you'll make a few extra bucks :lol
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I say start charging him interest. Either he'll get his shit together or you'll make a few extra bucks :lol
Or the friend ends up with broken legs
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I agree with the common theme on advice, I'd speak with him and let him know that you're done being his back up wallet. It's great that he'd paid you back every time but that's $$ that you then don't have because of his decisions....like this one:
I think his was around 600 or so. He told me about that and I told him "Great! Bro you should use that to get a month or two ahead on some of your bills so things aren't so tight."
Nope. He bought a fucking 50 inch LG TV. He swore up and down he needed his upgrade sooo bad. He could barely see his old TV, he has to sit on the floor to do so, doing that hurts his back, yada yada yada.
That action right there reeks of being highly irresponsible and clearly shows where the dude's priorities are....and they aren't in line with improving himself or his situation. This is spoiled child type of stuff....."I want"..... but he doesn't 'NEED' a new TV and that new tv does nothing to help him become more responsible. I declare shenanigans on his 'back hurting' excuse on the old one as well, that's a typical BS justification deal going on in his head to trick himself into believing he really needed that TV because deep down he knows he's made a poor choice.
Anyway, I really dislike when people do crap like that because it reminds me of my mother. She's broke as broke can be all the time but somehow manages to find $$ to go gamble or buy my kids anything they mention to her despite always being broke....then complains about being broke all the time.
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I know: The next time you see him, just as you can tell he's gearing up to ask you for money, say, "Hey Mang, can you spot me a hundred bucks for ten days or so?"
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I know: The next time you see him, just as you can tell he's gearing up to ask you for money, say, "Hey Mang, can you spot me a hundred bucks for ten days or so?"
A friend of mine would always hit panhandlers up for money before they could get to the car to ask him. "Dude, we're fixing to run out of gas! can you give us a buck?" They're actually a fairly generous lot.
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I know: The next time you see him, just as you can tell he's gearing up to ask you for money, say, "Hey Mang, can you spot me a hundred bucks for ten days or so?"
A friend of mine would always hit panhandlers up for money before they could get to the car to ask him. "Dude, we're fixing to run out of gas! can you give us a buck?" They're actually a fairly generous lot.
:lol got to try that some time. Then just put the money back in their jar.
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Is this Scarlet (seriously?) character
I'm guessing "stage name".
(Metal, I'm just joking; I'm sure she's a standup person but I couldn't resist).
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If it was me, I'd stop enabling him. Now. So long as he thinks he's got some kind of safety net (in you, or others), it's unlikely he'll change his patterns on his own. And you're right... if he/wife can't get their shit together on their own, parenthood ought to be grand. Now is the time to stop this, before he comes to you with "dude, can I get $50 for diapers/formula?" Force him to live with consequences (no electric) of his own dumb-ass decisions. Seeing his kid to go without food is a little tougher.
Yes. Just reading the opening post stressed me out because I am dealing with someone like this right now, and it's not one of my kids either like you'd think. I remember to this day when, about 20 years ago, we had to deal with having no electricity for a few days with two little boys (infant and age 2.5), looking through couch cushions for extra change to buy a bag of puffed rice cereal to eat dry (hey, it was 99 cents, wasnt' gonna get cheaper than that for such a large bag of anything else edible by itself), and finally having to file bankruptcy over under $5000 worth of back bills because it was the only way to avoid getting evicted for long enough to find someplace else to start fresh (this was the days before credit reports being pulled for apartment rentals thank goodness)... because NOBODY was helping us and we already had visited the food pantry and were on food stamps and cash assistance but just could not pay all the bills that way. My husband was working two jobs but had to drive 45 minutes each way to get to one, and the other one was a driving job that started that far away and went far further with no gas compensation... as eminem says 'goddamed food stamps don't buy diapers'... money was just too tight. and after that we got our shit together and made a plan and executed it because we realized that if we didn't do it nobody else was going to and we had kids to get our shit together for. Now is the time to cut him off. You will seriously thank us later as you sit back and watch how much his borrowing from everyone ELSE is about to increase once that child comes.
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New development, or lack thereof. For some reason my direct deposit hasn't been sorted out. Before I made this thread yesterday, I told him I'd loan him the money if my paycheck showed up on time. I wouldn't have the money to give him otherwise, since I dropped 300 dollars on car repair last week (yay!)
It didn't show up today, and I told him that.
I'm texting him right now. I thought it was a car payment he was talking about, but it turns out it was a payday loan to pay bills. He borrowed money from a co-worker earlier today and still made the payment on time.
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Payday loans... yikes. He might be worse off than you think.
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Payday loans... yikes. He might be worse off than you think.
yeah, wow. :/ that's not great. you should ask him if he's ever tried out credit karma and have him sign up and check his credit while he's with you some time and see what his "credit score" is. It's not a FICO and is based on no algorithms actually used by creditors but if he comes out with "is 575 good?" then that still tells you what you need to know.
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The payday loan thing is an evil trap that never ends. I had a cousin who constantly got herself in financial straits. She was constantly asking me for money. I too was an enabler. It was never enough. She got so far down the payday loan trail that literally her entire checks were paying off previous loans. I finally told her that I would get her totally out of debt, but I wouldn't give her another dime. She had to clean my house for it. I also told her she had to take a money management class. Many communities offer them for free. My aunt was also always financially irresponsible, so my cousin never even learned the basics. She is much better now, and very stable. But your friend was probably never taught how to budget his cash flow. You need to stop enabling him, but at the same time tell him to get some help in figuring it all out. He owes that much to his kid.
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https://youtu.be/PDylgzybWAw (https://youtu.be/PDylgzybWAw)
That is John Oliver from Last Week Tonight on payday loans, his bits are funny, but the subject matter is not. He goes into detail how bad they are and it quickly turns into a bottomless pit for your cash. Your friend probably isn't easily going to sit with you to discuss his issues because they are that bad, he will lie and BS his story most likely. I feel bad for your friend, and for you because it seems like you just want to help especially with the baby on the way.
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Have him call Consumer Credit Counseling service or something if you want to offer help. Teach him to fish, quit handing him perfectly cooked fillets.
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This thread reminds me of one of my favorite songs of all time.
The OJs - "For The Love of Money" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXE_n2q08Yw)
For the love of money
People will steal from their mother
For the love of money
People will rob their own brother
For the love of money
People can't even walk the street
Because they never know
Who in the world they're gonna beat
For that lean, mean, mean green
Almighty dollar, money
For the love of money
People will lie, Lord, they will cheat
For the love of money
People don't care who they hurt or beat
For the love of money
A woman will sell her precious body
For a small piece of paper
It carries a lot of weight
Call it lean, mean, mean green
Almighty dollar
I know money is the root of all evil
Do funny things to some people
Give me a nickel, brother can you spare a dime
Money can drive some people out of their minds
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So after he borrowed money from a co-worker instead of me to pay off his payday loan that paid off his bills, he asked me to borrow 20 until Thursday. I asked him for what, and he said "food."
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Tell him you were planning on going to the store anyway and he can just go with you. Very good way to call his bluff in case he was just lookin for piss money to avoid boredom on your dime.
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Wow, this sounds so much like a friend of mine.
Short on his bills, spending money on stupid shit, up to his eyeballs in debt from payday loans.
He would txt me every week asking for money to get him through. I would oblige until one day it was like, eh, fuck it. Said no and told him he needed to make better choices. He was fucked off at me at first but ended up crying and having a heart to heart.
He went and saw some financial advisors and is now in a better place. And, more importantly, does not ask me for money :lol
So yeah, with the consensus on this one. If they don't learn that they're responsible for their own finances they... won't learn.
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Don't give him another fucking cent, ever.
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For Christ's sake, this.
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I wouldn't give him another dime; however, I would give him a copy of Dave Ramsey's book (I forget the title).
The Total Money Makeover.
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In addition to not giving him more money, if he currently owes you money, make sure you collect interest in the form of kicks to the balls. That should also help him not have another kid until his financial situation improves.