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Dream Theater => Concerts and Set Lists => Topic started by: Duke59 on February 25, 2016, 12:37:27 PM
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On March 18 I will go to see DT in Milan. :)
I can understand the will of the band to play the Astonishing in full colours, with orchestra and choir, but I am a little concerned with the choice to use recorded backing tracks.
I am 56 yo and I remeber having read that in the '70s the Who toured with their album Quadrophenia using tapes for the brass and extras instruments, but the things didn't go well because those were other ages and the technology was raw.
Pete Towshend got often pissed and various times he stopped the show accusing the sound engineer for tapes starting in the wrong moment or for out sync situations.
At the end they threw away the tapes and went on with the tour as a 4 pieces band.
I know that now things are different but I frankly would have preferred the DT playing the full opus by themselves, changing the arrengements to fit a 5 pieces group.
But the tour is already started with the "tapes" so I have few curiosities about:
How they mantain the sync with the "tapes?
Do they use a clock signal in earphones?
How much the necessity to stay in sync with the tapes can affect their playing?
Will they be stiffer?
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They use a "click track" throughout the show to stay on the proper pace. Mangini can hear it in his monitors, so as he is setting the pace with the drums, he always stays on pace with the click, which makes sure the videos and backing tracks are in sync with the music. Not sure if the other band members can hear the click in their monitors or not.
I would not worry too much. The band used a click on the entire Along For The Ride tour as well, so they are used to it.
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Since we're at it, one thing I never figured out - how the drummer knows the *exact* moment when to start? he hears a pre-intro click, something that warns him when he has to start to count in the song for the rest of the band?
Drummers have a computer beside them, I've seen them many times clicking on it to start intro tapes and atmospheric beginnings of songs, but how does the drummer know / decide the precise moment where he has to start the song? Imagine a full click-track performance of A Nightmare to Remember, for example, it has to be done to the millisecond the way it's done on the album, so Jordan has to start the piano intro the very exact moment it starts on the album and not just whenever he feels the right moment is after the rain intro fades - how does Mike (any Mike, hehe) would know when to signal him to start playing?
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he hears a pre-intro click, something that warns him when he has to start to count in the song for the rest of the band
^This. Kinda similar to what Mike Portnoy used to refer to as "invisible cowbell." He had a pad as part of his drum kit that was programmed to a cowbell sound that the audience could not hear, but would sound in the band members' in ear monitors. That way, Mike could count into a song and the band would hear it and know when to start, but the audience would not hear it, and it would sound like the entire band was just spontaneously starting together. Similar principle, except that the count-in is pre-programmed as well.
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My understanding is that Mangini is very much involved in the programming of the click tracks (he often alludes to them in his FB posts). Which is why he does not really have a lot of time to shoot drum cam performances of DT songs. :p
Playing to a click track is very stressful. Mangini has an anecdote of him playing to a simple beat for Annihilator early in his career and he was actually hospitalized because his body was so stressed playing to a click track. That's when he learned that having crazy chops is not enough to become a good studio drummer.
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Playing to a click track is pretty common for a lot of bands and/or musicians in a lot of situations. For example, if you wanted to volunteer to play in the worship band at my church, you'd have to be able to play to a click. Most musicians are pretty comfortable with it after they get used to it. Obviously, it's hardest on drummers and obviously MM programming and playing along to DT's material is much harder than playing a simple groove in 4/4 for 3 minutes, haha.
That being said, the technology is easily accessible to create great loop tracks with not only count-in's (as discussed above) at the beginning of songs, but also cues through out letting you know when you should be transitioning to a chorus or a verse or a bridge, etc... Ableton is a good example of software that lets you create loop click tracks with cues (and do a LOT more).
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Playing to a click track is pretty common for a lot of bands and/or musicians in a lot of situations.
Yup. I would say there are at least two driving factors: (1) where the timing and pace is critical; (2) where the band has a lot of piped in sound or video.
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Given the amount of keyboard intro´s in this show, I wouldn´t be surprised if Rudess doesn´t have a clicktrack of his own going for the tracks he does the start-ins.
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Given the amount of keyboard intro´s in this show, I wouldn´t be surprised if Rudess doesn´t have a clicktrack of his own going for the tracks he does the start-ins.
Well, but if the videos are all synchronized, he can't start whenever he wants just because he's the sole player at the beginning and the others come in later, he has to start at the right moment the videos will do... so Mike Mangini would still have to cue him in, for the band to follow in later at the precise moment the click track demands it.
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I'm pretty sure they ALL have click tracks in their in-ear monitors
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Haha yeah don't over think this, there is one click track that everyone can mix into their in-ears. Just like there is one bass guitar that everyone can mix into their in-ears.
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It's very likely that they are all hearing the click, or at the very least, having the click mixed in while Mangini isn't playing.
As far as when to start, you just know how many clicks to hear before you start. It's pretty easy. I've played tons of shows/practices to clicks with backing tracks. Usually if there's no sound or introduction, you just count 4-8 clicks or however many you want.
So Jordan likely is hearing the click if there's a piano intro and just knows how many to listen for before he starts playing. It's actually extremely easy.....well, the counting in part is. Playing DT music to a click is a little less easy with as many odd times and changing tempos they must have.
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I met this guy (and three other guys) after the Oslo-gig yesterday, and asked him about this. :metal
(https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v699/hunken_selv/Bilde%2027.02.16%2022.56.58_zpsruzssrrh.jpg) (https://smg.photobucket.com/user/hunken_selv/media/Bilde%2027.02.16%2022.56.58_zpsruzssrrh.jpg.html)
He said that MM had the click going the entire time. The other band-members had click tracks in their in-ear monitors to que them in when they started alone or had a click going when they played alone. MM wasnt hitting a "hidden cowbell" for these sections, but was keeping the time for the most part of the show.
One example: On "Begin Again", Jordan and John had a click going until MM came in right before the second verse. James proably had a click to count him in before he started singing, but the click ended once JP started playing.
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Woooo.
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He said that MM had the click going the entire time. The other band-members had click tracks in their in-ear monitors to que them in when they started alone or had a click going when they played alone. MM wasnt hitting a "hidden cowbell" for these sections, but was keeping the time for the most part of the show.
One example: On "Begin Again", Jordan and John had a click going until MM came in right before the second verse. James proably had a click to count him in before he started singing, but the click ended once JP started playing.
This is the best answwer that I could have dreamed of. Straight from a band's guy.
Thanks for asking Jordan the question.
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I have mixed feelings about click tracks. On the one hand I understand they are necessary when you want to pipe in backing tracks, or show a video that is synchronized to the music. On the other hand, they obviously deprive the show of any spontaneity. Your won't hear an extended jam, unless it is part of the click track. It also sometimes makes DT's songs seem slow because they didn't emulate the speed up a live performance has due its adrenaline rush.
It also invites backing track creep. You'd think a band of 5 people would have only sparing need of backing tracks, but these days many of James' vocals are doubled, and JPs solos often harmonize with a backing track guitar. And a rhythm guitar track. I personally find it a bit lamentable that I have to guess what parts in hearing are live, and which are not.
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Pretty much every professional touring band uses click tracks for recording and live performances. That's goes double for technical bands like DT. If you've ever played with a full band before on stage, you know how easy it can be to speed up with the surge of adrenaline. As good as JP and JR can play their instruments, I'm sure they couldn't handle some of those solos if they're 10 or 20 bpm faster than normal.
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Pretty much every professional touring band uses click tracks for recording and live performances. That's goes double for technical bands like DT. If you've ever played with a full band before on stage, you know how easy it can be to speed up with the surge of adrenaline. As good as JP and JR can play their instruments, I'm sure they couldn't handle some of those solos if they're 10 or 20 bpm faster than normal.
As far as I know, Dream Theater didn't start using click tracks until MM came on board.
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Correct. And you can tell from their live shows. The older shows are all over the place in terms of pacing. And that is not meant to be a knock on the band. It just is what it is.
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I have mixed feelings about click tracks. On the one hand I understand they are necessary when you want to pipe in backing tracks, or show a video that is synchronized to the music. On the other hand, they obviously deprive the show of any spontaneity. Your won't hear an extended jam, unless it is part of the click track. It also sometimes makes DT's songs seem slow because they didn't emulate the speed up a live performance has due its adrenaline rush.
It also invites backing track creep. You'd think a band of 5 people would have only sparing need of backing tracks, but these days many of James' vocals are doubled, and JPs solos often harmonize with a backing track guitar. And a rhythm guitar track. I personally find it a bit lamentable that I have to guess what parts in hearing are live, and which are not.
I agree with you. It's not that I'm against click tracks and backing tapes, as I understand their place, especially this tour with the full video show and timing the show, but it's a completely different experience for me, and doesn't really have that "live" feel. I don't even watch live clips on YT any more, because vocal performance aside, it just sounds like the studio albums to me.
But as I said, I understand that they're essential for what DT want to achieve now, and pulling off this album live without a click would have been a logistical nightmare, if not impossible.
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I have mixed feelings about click tracks. On the one hand I understand they are necessary when you want to pipe in backing tracks, or show a video that is synchronized to the music. On the other hand, they obviously deprive the show of any spontaneity. Your won't hear an extended jam, unless it is part of the click track. It also sometimes makes DT's songs seem slow because they didn't emulate the speed up a live performance has due its adrenaline rush.
It also invites backing track creep. You'd think a band of 5 people would have only sparing need of backing tracks, but these days many of James' vocals are doubled, and JPs solos often harmonize with a backing track guitar. And a rhythm guitar track. I personally find it a bit lamentable that I have to guess what parts in hearing are live, and which are not.
I agree with you. It's not that I'm against click tracks and backing tapes, as I understand their place, especially this tour with the full video show and timing the show, but it's a completely different experience for me, and doesn't really have that "live" feel. I don't even watch live clips on YT any more, because vocal performance aside, it just sounds like the studio albums to me.
But as I said, I understand that they're essential for what DT want to achieve now, and pulling off this album live without a click would have been a logistical nightmare, if not impossible.
I hear that. Based on many of the posts I've read on this forum, I also feel that many DT fans want their live shows to be as accurate and precise and like the album as possible. I'm not one of those fans, but I feel that DT are aiming for that general feel.
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I would love for DT to go back to NOT using click tracks for their next tour (after all of the Astonishing shows).
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Same.
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I would love for DT to go back to NOT using click tracks for their next tour (after all of the Astonishing shows).
So would I. I can't imagine MM would drift too far off tempo, but it would give them the freedom to improvise a bit and feel out what tempos work best live.
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I would love for DT to go back to NOT using click tracks for their next tour (after all of the Astonishing shows).
So would I. I can't imagine MM would drift too far off tempo, but it would give them the freedom to improvise a bit and feel out what tempos work best live.
I doubt it will ever happen, but add me to that list too! Not only is playing to a click track restrictive, I understand it's an extra challenge for MM. And it takes away from the songs coming to life, IMO. So often I hear songs live (both DT and other bands) where the tempo is a little faster and it seems to heighten the excitement of the song/performance. I'd rather them force their video guy to earn his keep more, rather than having MM be a slave so that the video lines up correctly.
Even Neil Peart rarely used a click track live. Here's what he said in a recent DRUM! magazine article:
Until the Clockwork Angels tour I had never used a click track live, except once years ago to stay in sync with a rear-screen film. For this tour it was helpful because we had eight string players in the Clockwork Angels String Ensemble, and they sometimes needed it when I wasn't playing. Even in certain passages when I was playing, it helped us all to stay together.
I was also required to stay in tempo with some long, legato sequences of keyboard or vocal effects, and the tambo-click helped with that, too. Even so, I am glad to say that the click appears in only a tiny percentage of the show, and only when absolutely necessary - or at least, "absolutely helpful."
On most songs, I prefer to hold it together myself, and let the band be a living, breathing organism that can push and pull naturally. These days many bands perform to a preprogrammed basic track, often a computerized software program. We always resisted that rigidity.
I wish the same thing were true of MM-era DT - I definitely wish JP would apply his mindset of WWRD in this case!
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I can see both sides, and neither approach really bothers me. That's just one of many creative decisions that I don't feel it is any of my business to offer my two cents on.
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I can see both sides, and neither approach really bothers me. That's just one of many creative decisions that I don't feel it is any of my business to offer my two cents on.
Agreed, there are definitely pros and cons to each approach, regardless of what DT has done/is doing now, the trend certainly is that more bands are starting to play to click live for better or worse.
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I've got two pro-shot vids of Roger Water's DSotM tour and they both contain SB audio, which includes the click. It's interesting to hear all of the information and cues in there. All of those guys have Roger in their ear telling them who starts when and what the count is. "Snowy, come in in 1 2 1 2 3, now play 3 more." Fascinating, really. Also annoying as shit if you're not having to play it. We all know that material well that a constant high hat clanging away is borderline infuriating. Ruins the videos for me.
As for DT, there's no mixed feelings about it at all for me. I've always thought the switch to a click was a huge loss. I'm actually surprised others are now chiming in about it. I don't recall having many supporters when this came up in the past.
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I've got two pro-shot vids of Roger Water's DSotM tour and they both contain SB audio, which includes the click. It's interesting to hear all of the information and cues in there. All of those guys have Roger in their ear telling them who starts when and what the count is. "Snowy, come in in 1 2 1 2 3, now play 3 more." Fascinating, really. Also annoying as shit if you're not having to play it. We all know that material well that a constant high hat clanging away is borderline infuriating. Ruins the videos for me.
That's be cool to hear.
There's a DT boot (I forget which one) where you can hear MP's cowbell. It's a cool behind the scenes type thing.
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I've got two pro-shot vids of Roger Water's DSotM tour and they both contain SB audio, which includes the click. It's interesting to hear all of the information and cues in there. All of those guys have Roger in their ear telling them who starts when and what the count is. "Snowy, come in in 1 2 1 2 3, now play 3 more." Fascinating, really. Also annoying as shit if you're not having to play it. We all know that material well that a constant high hat clanging away is borderline infuriating. Ruins the videos for me.
That's be cool to hear.
There's a DT boot (I forget which one) where you can hear MP's cowbell. It's a cool behind the scenes type thing.
Both things sound awesome to hear! I've always thought it would be intersting to hear what the guys hear in their monitors.
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I think it's the Cleveland '07 show.
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I would love for DT to go back to NOT using click tracks for their next tour (after all of the Astonishing shows).
So would I. I can't imagine MM would drift too far off tempo, but it would give them the freedom to improvise a bit and feel out what tempos work best live.
I really doubt they would go back. I get the impression MM prides himself in being to able to play so well to click, and the other guys are probably happy that they can play the music to album pace. In the MP days, JP struggled occasionally with solos because they were playing it faster than on the album.
At the same time, it feels sluggish in places because of that. It's the exact adrenaline rush of the band that gets suppressed that way.
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I would love for DT to go back to NOT using click tracks for their next tour (after all of the Astonishing shows).
So would I. I can't imagine MM would drift too far off tempo, but it would give them the freedom to improvise a bit and feel out what tempos work best live.
I really doubt they would go back. I get the impression MM prides himself in being to able to play so well to click, and the other guys are probably happy that they can play the music to album pace. In the MP days, JP struggled occasionally with solos because they were playing it faster than on the album.
At the same time, it feels sluggish in places because of that. It's the exact adrenaline rush of the band that gets suppressed that way.
I see the arguments on both sides and will be happy either way. That being said, Stream of Consciousness is significantly better sped up when played live.
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Overall I would personally love to see them to dial back the "production" for the next album, both in studio and live. There's been a bit of a arms race going on, with the backing tracks and click, JR's ever-expanding list of toys, James' vocal effects and double vocals, JM's Taurus pedal board... I'm not holding my breath, but it would be nice if they went a bit back towards a simpler setup.
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Overall I would personally love to see them to dial back the "production" for the next album, both in studio and live. There's been a bit of a arms race going on, with the backing tracks and click, JR's ever-expanding list of toys, James' vocal effects and double vocals, JM's Taurus pedal board... I'm not holding my breath, but it would be nice if they went a bit back towards a simpler setup.
It's too bad there wasn't smart software out there that could store any backing stuff as triggers, and then in real time determine when to play them based on whatever speed the band was currently playing at. I'm sure it's possible, but it'd be a hell of an effort for just a concert/tour.
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I would love for DT to go back to NOT using click tracks for their next tour (after all of the Astonishing shows).
So would I. I can't imagine MM would drift too far off tempo, but it would give them the freedom to improvise a bit and feel out what tempos work best live.
I really doubt they would go back. I get the impression MM prides himself in being to able to play so well to click, and the other guys are probably happy that they can play the music to album pace.
I am not so sure. I think you are right that he does pride himself on being able to do it. But he has also said several times that it is stressful and, sometimes, just NOT fun for him to be a slave to the click. Putting it all together, I think he takes great professional pride in being able to play either way, and will do his best to excel with or without it, but that he would welcome eventually dropping it again.
@Chino: The practical alternative is just to have someone else triggering everything. In some bands, the drummer does it. I know Jordan has triggered samples in the past. But to be the sole guy triggering everything on top of just playing the complex parts those guys have to play, I think it would be too much. They would have to either scale back the samples, or have someone else doing all the triggering.
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I think when it comes to triggers, having a backstage person do them would be entirely permissible. IMHO.
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Triggers without a click can be very problematic, especially depending on how long they are.
If you have an entire chorus of backing vocals, the band has to play to the exact tempo at which they were recorded or else it sounds awful. If it's as short as a word here or word there like they did with In the Presence of Enemies (the low vocals on the 2nd part) then that's possible, and DT even did that back in the day.
But anything more than a second or two long, and it can cause major problems.
Edit: One good example of how problematic it is to use samples without a click is Metallica's Enter Sandman. I don't think I've ever heard a live version of that song where the band prayer sample doesn't get cut off too early.
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Triggers without a click can be very problematic, especially depending on how long they are.
If you have an entire chorus of backing vocals, the band has to play to the exact tempo at which they were recorded or else it sounds awful. If it's as short as a word here or word there like they did with In the Presence of Enemies (the low vocals on the 2nd part) then that's possible, and DT even did that back in the day.
But anything more than a second or two long, and it can cause major problems.
Yeah exactly this. That's why if you are looping something in, you pretty much have to be playing to a click.
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What a great thread about this click track !!
I myself, is a drummer. I have been used click track with my band when we jamming and performing live, it's been over 2 years, and it very helpful for me, and us
Me and my band was some kind of tribute band to Dream Theater, we perform many many of Dream Theater song.
And we have no keyboard player here, so you know what happen, the DT song was not good at all without keyboard when you played it with your band, and that problem was started to worried me.
People, the audience, even us, can't enjoy DT song very much because no keyboard when we play it live
Because keyboard has been an very important aspect in Dream Theater
Since Mangini era, I start to configured that some how, Dream Theater playing their song in very correct tempo and time, I even try to sync their live video from YouTube with Original song, and it is match between video and the mp3, if you know what I am talking about here.
And then I revealed that Mike Mangini has using click track in his ear monitor and he give all the rest of members the tempo of the song.
It suddenly give me an idea to make my own click track too
But you know Dream Theater, their song was complex, with tempo and time signature changing almost all the song
And I start to learn every software that allows me to make various tempo and time signature. Until now, I used cubase to make my click track.
And since then, I start to searching all keyboard stem I can get on the Internet. Thanks so so very much to those of them who give me the keyboard stem and isolated keyboard track they have..
And so I start to make tempo and time signature, and then synchronize the click track with Isolated keyboard track I have for DT song
And I start to configure it, how can my ear monitor hear only the click track, mean while in the same time, in the output speaker, come out keyboard only. And I found the way for it, using my sound card device.
And there you go, me and my band until now, always play DT song, without keyboard player but somehow keyboard sound out of nowhere, and make our perform was getting better than ever..
Of course I, MUST REMEMBER exactly where the song start and end, I have no other but the click track only in my ear monitor. So I must be careful and try not to out of the click track. If I did any mistakes when we live, and the keyboard sound start out of sync, I immediately turning off the keyboard sound from monitor just behind my kit, and we gonna continue the whole song without any click track on me and keyboard sound on speaker anymore, but thanks God it never happen when we performing live
And of course my other friend did not hear any click track like I am, so when the song start with guitar first, I must in very focused communication with him, and I start counting the tempo as I hear in my ear monitor, so he can start playing his guitar with the tempo I give, I usually hit hihat slowly or hit my stick for him.
For how I know when the song start, yes I always give a click before start playing
8 click, double time 4/4, if the song start immediately, so I have a longer time to sync my self to click track and not shocked me. For example, The Enemy Inside, or Constant Motion with guitar first.
4 click, one time 4/4, if the song start with keyboard only. For example, A Nightmare to Remember.
Now we developed, not only use the keyboard track, but also we can backing track for backing vocals or guitar too.. Just like outcry song, before in drum electric part, my guitarist use his second melody sync with my click track and comes out from speaker, give him very great performance on stage..
We also use another sound and voice that make our performance cooler just like we use track "Hold it now, wait a minute, come on !!" In Take The Time song, or we use ambulance and car crash sound in A Nightmare to remember
Some month ago, we even try to use back screen video, for our next performance. And it goes very very well without any problem !!!
We try to play The Enemy Inside with keyboard track, and our back screen video, show The Enemy Inside Official Video Clip from Dream Theater
I have to tell you, it is a very great experience and very helpful to make our performance getting better and stay in good tempo.
As I drummer and the leader in my band, I must knowing very well what I am doing here, and I have practice to drumming and sync my self with the click track. I must remember all time signature and how the tempo is going, and I must be the TEMPO for all my band members, I am the click track for them, that's how everything works in last 2 years in my band
Soon I will try upload some videos of me and my band playing Dream Theater live with me using click track and you can hear the sound of keyboard comes out from speakers..
Umm, sorry for my bad english, I am from Indonesia, hehehe
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Holy crap...kudo's to you and your friends for just attempting to play a DT song.....
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As I said before, I will try to post some video of me and my band, playing Dream Theater song live, using click track and isolated keyboard track as backing track.
If allowed, I post it here to you all. But if it breaking the rule, feel free to delete this post and remind me, thanks ;D :tup
Here I give you 3 videos as example in different situation about sync between the band, the click track and the keyboard track. Sorry about poor quality video & audio. Sorry about low volume of the keyboard track, please use headset to hear it, and sorry for all our mistakes when playing all that song. You know it's so hard to play Dream Theater song hahaha :lol
Oh, and very thanks to Mr. Junghwan Kim from Seoul, for very great job Isolated Keyboard Track for Outcry & The Enemy Inside.
For Lost Not Forgotten Isolated Keyboard Track, that is a midi, I made it using Cubase VST HALion.
1. Lost Not Forgotten
https://youtu.be/yhiLgODuT6Q
This song started with piano solo, and then all band member start together. You can see me on the drum, counting 4/4 to inform my friend when we can start the song together after piano solo
2. The Enemy Inside
https://youtu.be/DHbVcQdf0D4
This song start immediately, all together. You can see me on the drum, counting 4/4 after I press start on my hidden laptop behind the kit. The guitarist staring at me to know my cue to start the song. In those event in the video, I still using one time 4/4 to come in the song. But now, I've update the click track, and give me double time 4/4 to start the song. So it give me a little time to prepare count 4/4 and cue all member to start the song. Sadly the keyboard track volume was too low in the middle, so we cant hear that majestic keyboard solo :-[
3. Outcry
https://youtu.be/GzgcWciW6qc
Like Lost Not Forgotten, this song start after keyboard intro. I give 2/4 to all member to start the song, just like the original song. In minute 1:43, you can hear second melody of guitar come in too, not only keyboard, but we also use second melody of guitar as a backing track, just like what I've said before.
And in this video, you can see what happen when I make mistake when I forgot the click track and not correctly give cue to the vocalist, to start singing in 3:03. Fortunately the vocalist realize there was no string come in and know that is false moment to start sing, and he just try to sing after next 4/4. And another mistake, when the guitarist start playing alone without me drumming as his tempo in minute 6:05. I was late to give him cue and tempo, so he play on his own. But I must keep playing in my click track, causing him out of sync for a while. Fortunately in 6:13 he can rejoin us again after realize there something wrong with us on stage, hahahaha. :facepalm: :lol :biggrin:
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I'm pretty sure they ALL have click tracks in their in-ear monitors
Yeah it would surprise me greatly if this were not the case.
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Umm, sorry for my bad english, I am from Indonesia, hehehe
That's okay. That makes me appreciate even more all the effort it must have taken to post such a long, detailed post. Thanks for sharing that! :tup
And thanks for posting the really cool videos. You guys are really good. And your dedication to learning to play in sync with a click on such complex music so that you can pipe in the keyboard sounds and keep the band all together is really amazing. Nice job.