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Dream Theater => Dream Theater => Topic started by: dvargas on January 17, 2016, 07:35:36 PM
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Time to review DT's chances of making a splash with a new release this time around. From my perspective and with what appears to be quite limited publicity I'd say somewhere between 10 and 20. DT's releases are front-loaded and drop fast.
Tough time to release a record (from a billboard perspective), it will be facing Adele, Bieber, 21 pilots, One direction ... none of which will drop significantly during the next weeks. Also, Bowie debuted on first this week and Sia's new album comes out on the 29th as well.
I know that for a lot of people here (me included) Billboard means nothing, but for a band and marketing prospects, etc. it does matter to some degree.
Anyways... thoughts?
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I think it will easily be the highest charting DT release. Don't forget that this will officially be a double album, which means that, as far as I understand, one album sale actually counts for two.
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I think it will easily be the highest charting DT release. Don't forget that this will officially be a double album, which means that, as far as I understand, one album sale actually counts for two.
Thanks for pointing this out! Should get in the top 10.
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I think it will easily be the highest charting DT release. Don't forget that this will officially be a double album, which means that, as far as I understand, one album sale actually counts for two.
Source?
I thought that only applied to a certain era of albums decades ago.
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I have said this before in another thread, and i'll say it again here. Double albums do not count twice on Billboard. Double albums count twice for RIAA certifications, but not on the charts.
Source:
Hi Fred,
I was curious if Shania Twain's latest CD, "Up!", counts as two albums or just one on The Billboard 200? I'm fairly sure that Billboard's policy on double CDs is that they count as two units sold for each album sold. For example, Garth Brooks' "Double Live" album sold a million copies in its first week because it was double album. This might be different though because both CDs contain the same songs. Is there a policy on this?
Thank you so much Fred for reading all of our E-mails. I know we all appreciate the hard work you do for us.
Nick Oswald
Dear Nick,
Thanks. It's a pleasure!
Shania Twain's album counts as one album when it comes to the Billboard charts. In the print issue dated Dec. 14, director of charts Geoff Mayfield reports that the album has sold 1.5 million copies in its first two weeks, according to Nielsen SoundScan. That means that 1.5 million copies have been sold, not 750,000.
A lot of readers asked this question this week. I think the confusion is because of the policy of the Recording Industry Association of America (RIAA), which is the trade organization that awards gold and platinum certifications. A double album does count twice for them, so 1.5 million copies sold would be triple platinum -- but keep in mind the RIAA issues certifications based on units shipped, not units sold. That means Shania Twain's platinum figure is already higher than triple-platinum (and going "up").
https://www.billboard.com/articles/news/73213/chart-beat-chat (https://www.billboard.com/articles/news/73213/chart-beat-chat)
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Thanks for the clarification. I wondered about this back when it was first confirmed it was a double album, and asked about it, but figured it counted double for Billboard too.
I expect it will hit the Billboard top 10 for its first week regardless. I have no idea what it's competing against this time though, which may affect where it lands.
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I think it will hit (or land just outside) the Top 10.
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DT12 reached number 4 i Norway (the second highest since systematic chaos at number 3). I don't expect them to reach number one, but i'm hoping for number 5 or higher!
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Same ol' sweet as always. Between 32K and 48K in the US first week is my prediction.
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*Explanation of how double-albums are counted*
Ah, that's too bad. Thanks for the information!
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I'm gonna say #6 on the Billboard.
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Ah, that's too bad. Thanks for the information!
Yeah, i was disappointed too! I was hoping for a real shot at number one :P
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Same ol' sweet as always. Between 32K and 48K in the US first week is my prediction.
I agree with this.
Thanks for the clarification. I wondered about this back when it was first confirmed it was a double album, and asked about it, but figured it counted double for Billboard too.
I expect it will hit the Billboard top 10 for its first week regardless. I have no idea what it's competing against this time though, which may affect where it lands.
Hopefully it will hit the top 10, but it may land just outside this position. As I mentioned on my first post -- tough, tough competition.
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I think we'll see if it in the top 5 to top 10 range. I'm not sure what the album is up against in the week before, during, and after release, but I don't think it has much competition with the metal or prog sound with the exception of Megadeth.
While the new album may sell a certain amount of copies, the billboard chart for the first week could vary based on what other albums were released in the same time frame.
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I think the pattern will repeat itself.
It will have a big first-week entry, and then fall considerably. DT's fanbase won't get much bigger or smaller with this release, so there's no point in thinking their sales numbers will be any different this time around.
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I think the pattern will repeat itself.
It will have a big first-week entry, and then fall considerably. DT's fanbase won't get much bigger or smaller with this release, so there's no point in thinking their sales numbers will be any different this time around.
Agreed. I'd say expect sales in the low 30,000 for US first week, as has been the case for the past several records. I'm not familiar with the rest of the world's first week sales, though.
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I would have thought it would be mid top 10, near what the last couple of been. But with the other big-named released around the same time, I think lower top 10, or possibly just outside the top 10 (11 or 12) is probably right.
Ah, that's too bad. Thanks for the information!
Yeah, i was disappointed too! I was hoping for a real shot at number one :P
I don't think a #1 is ever a real strong possibility for them. The differences between the top 5 are often exponential (although it obviously depends on who has new albums in a given week). If you look at who is in the top 3 and how many albums the top 3 usually sell, I don't see DT getting to that level, unfortunately.
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I think we'll see if it in the top 5 to top 10 range. I'm not sure what the album is up against in the week before, during, and after release, but I don't think it has much competition with the metal or prog sound with the exception of Megadeth.
While the new album may sell a certain amount of copies, the billboard chart for the first week could vary based on what other albums were released in the same time frame.
The problem is not what is released the same week (except for Sia's), but the ones that won't come down easily (Adele, Bieber, Bowie, One Direction, 21 pilots). Adele's record was on the top spot for 7 weeks. 21 pilot's album has been on the chart for over 15 weeks. So on...
Adele's 25 sold over 150,000 copies during its seventh week.
Finally, of note is the fact that currently the billboard chart position is a mix of physical and digital sales, and also of streaming.
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I would guess a much higher percentage of DT fans actually buy their cd's and don't stream the album, compared to pop artists. So when a pop artist is selling a lot of cd's one can be certain that number of streams is a lot higher.
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I'm personally buying 20 copies on release day. Just doing my part to get DT to #1 ;D
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I wonder if Eagles album sales are going to go up. Probably no enough to crack the Top 10, but I think the new album will be near 10 or just outside of.
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I'm predicting number seven, but I'm rooting for a higher spot.
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I'm personally buying 20 copies on release day. Just doing my part to get DT to #1 ;D
But it's a double album so only 10 of those will count ! :neverusethis:
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Can you please knock off the constant spam posts? It is getting way past excessive.
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I expect around #10 which has been the case recently. Depending on what else comes out that week, maybe it gets closer to 5, but could also be closer to #15. I'll just leave my official guess at 10.
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First week US sales: 37,000
Billboard 200 (US): #7
Canada: #6
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28,000 in the US. Who knows what chart position that equates?
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This comes up in the main menu as "The Astonishing Bill".
:lol
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Let's hope Rasmey doesn't score again so that DT has a chance at top 5
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Top 10 again? It's a safe bet.
When I bought it at Best Buy at lunch on Friday, it was the last copy remaining and the cashier did a double take at it when scanning it and said, "What is this? Seems like everybody has been buying it all morning." :lol :lol No clue how many copies they had, but I got the last one. My brother said he got the first one at a different Best Buy shortly after they opened and that they had 10 copies total. I am assuming the Best Buy I went to also had just 10. I bought mine just before 1 p.m., so hey, 10 copes in three hours isn't bad. :P
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I'd agree top 10 is a safe bet for DT at this point, but beyond that, I have no idea. I'll guess 6. I can't wait to find out, whenever that is. :)
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Here in italy is still n.1 on amazon.
There's good chances here will debut at number 1.
As for the US, it will fun to see them reaching the 3rd spot.
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I am not expecting a big success over here in The Netherlands, compared to previous records. For some reason none of the review outlets I know (sites, magazines) have covered TA and a great deal of recordstores (and consumers, likewise) are vinyl-orientated, which doesn't help sales with that Roadrunner exclusive 100 dollar box that isn't even there at release. I saw DT12 quite a lot (magazines, websites, stores) in the weeks prior to release. And other albums of the same date, like Avantasia, are well covered. Odd.
We are a small country so I doubt it will impact the bigger picture and the fans here will probably still buy it, but I do find it odd. Especially given they have three shows booked here, which is more than most other EU countries.
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The Astonishing is the #4 ranked item in music sales on Amazon.com. It is behind only Adele. David Bowie, and the Eagles. Not positive, but I would bet that this is the highest rank that one of their releases has ever been. I would also guess that this is one of the higher rankings for any metal/prog band releases for this year. Maybe Megadeth's album was higher, but not definite.
I would assume that this would translate to a decent billboard rank.
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The Astonishing is the #4 ranked item in music sales on Amazon.com. It is behind only Adele. David Bowie, and the Eagles. Not positive, but I would bet that this is the highest rank that one of their releases has ever been. I would also guess that this is one of the higher rankings for any metal/prog band releases for this year. Maybe Megadeth's album was higher, but not definite.
I would assume that this would translate to a decent billboard rank.
DT seems to always get outperformed by dead people. Didn't Michael Jackson have six albums beat DT after his death?
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We actually already have a thread for this;
https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=45572.0
I'll repeat my predictions from that one.
First week US sales: 37,000
US Billboard: #7
Canada: #6
The Astonishing is the #4 ranked item in music sales on Amazon.com. It is behind only Adele. David Bowie, and the Eagles. Not positive, but I would bet that this is the highest rank that one of their releases has ever been. I would also guess that this is one of the higher rankings for any metal/prog band releases for this year. Maybe Megadeth's album was higher, but not definite.
I would assume that this would translate to a decent billboard rank.
DT seems to always get outperformed by dead people. Didn't Michael Jackson have six albums beat DT after his death?
Not in the US, at least. On the US Billboard chart, if an album has left the main chart, it will switch over to the 'catalog' chart. I think there's also a maximum number of weeks it can be on. Unless they've made a change recently.
As for Bowie, I think Blackstar was going to chart higher regardless.
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We actually already have a thread for this
And now they are one. :)
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Anyone know when the numbers come in?
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Why do deaths make people buy albums?? You can't listen to their music while they're alive? I don't get it.
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Why do deaths make people buy albums?? You can't listen to their music while they're alive? I don't get it.
A number of reasons really, it makes people who have always meant to check out the artists stuff finally take that step to doing so. It makes people who might have liked them go "Oh I wonder what their most recent one was" or "Damn, I really liked them I should get their classic stuff" or people just do it in tribute. I don't imagine there is any one reason but a number of them that contribute.
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Someone mentioned the Micheal Jackson thing earlier, in the UK that happened. They were on course for around top 5 if I remember correctly, and then he died and had a number of albums surge up the charts which pushed them down to about 11th or so. Can't quite remember the exact numbers but it was something like that.
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TA is currently at rank 13 in Amazon.de (Germany). It probably may hit the top 10 since it performed slightly better in the last few days (I think the top spot I noticed was 5).
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Anyone know when the numbers come in?
Friday I think.
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:biggrin: Still find it funny that this thread comes up as " The Astonishing Bill..."
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Bill = Gabriel?
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Just had a look on www.ginza.se (a major swedish internet store selling CDs and DVDs and more...)
Their top 5 best sellers now are:
1. David Bowie - Blackstar CD (contributed to that one)
2. David Bowie - Best of Bowie 1969-2002
3. Dream Theater - The Astonising (contributed to that one)
4. David Bowie - Blackstar (Vinyl)
5. Adele - 25
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The main list (billboard 200) gets updated tuesdays and the rock list gets updated wednesdays.
Megadeth came into the list today: https://www.billboard.com/charts/rock-albums
https://www.billboard.com/charts/billboard-200
I wouldn't be surprised if DT has somewhat of the same performance.
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Just had a look at the other major swedish online store for music (www.cdon.se)
The Astonishing is in third place after David Bowie and Adele...
Seems to be selling well in Sweden at least :-)
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Currently at number 8 in the UK, if that keeps up it'll be their highest placing. Here's hoping :)
https://www.officialcharts.com/charts/albums-chart-update/
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Currently at number 8 in the UK, if that keeps up it'll be their highest placing. Here's hoping :)
https://www.officialcharts.com/charts/albums-chart-update/
Nice... this album is really Astonishing and should sell a lot (IMHO)
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We actually already have a thread for this
And now they are one. :)
"Linked by an endless thread, impossible to break"
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The main list (billboard 200) gets updated tuesdays and the rock list gets updated wednesdays.
Megadeth came into the list today: https://www.billboard.com/charts/rock-albums
https://www.billboard.com/charts/billboard-200
I wouldn't be surprised if DT has somewhat of the same performance.
If those numbers were released today, we should expect the US numbers for DT next Wednesday.
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Looks like data coming out in bits and pieces today. I have not read links but apparently Germany #5 and Dutch charts #4.
No clue if this is higher or lower than normal.
Hopefully their risk pays off!
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Looks like data coming out in bits and pieces today. I have not read links but apparently Germany #5 and Dutch charts #4.
No clue if this is higher or lower than normal.
Hopefully their risk pays off!
Well, at least in Germany, BC&SL, ADTOE (both #3) and DT12 (#4) have performed better. Still a good position TA is in right now.
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But this time around DT has to compete with Adele and David Bowie. Not quite fair...
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https://dutchcharts.nl/showitem.asp?interpret=Dream+Theater&titel=The+Astonishing&cat=a (https://dutchcharts.nl/showitem.asp?interpret=Dream+Theater&titel=The+Astonishing&cat=a)
Dutch charts.
'Dream Theater' was 4th too.
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Italy: 3rd.
Recent positions:
Octavarium 2nd
SC 2nd
BC&SL 5th
ADTOE 3rd
DT 2nd
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But this time around DT has to compete with Adele and David Bowie. Not quite fair...
Actually DT was in front of Adele in Germany (Bowie being #4).
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UK Album chart final position no.11
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https://hitsdailydouble.com/building_album_chart
This site states 6th in us as of today, wit 27000 plus in sales. Pretty good.
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But this time around DT has to compete with Adele and David Bowie. Not quite fair...
They're in damn good company, as far as I'm concerned. A huge international star and a God.
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I don't think DT have ever got into the overall albums Top 10 in the UK, so No. 11 would be their highest ever placing. For a 130-minute rock opera, in this day and age, that is quite remarkable!
Also worth pointing out that it's No. 1 on the UK Rock chart.
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I don't think DT have ever got into the overall albums Top 10 in the UK, so No. 11 would be their highest ever placing. For a 130-minute rock opera, in this day and age, that is quite remarkable!
Also worth pointing out that it's No. 1 on the UK Rock chart.
That's awesome that it's at 1 in the Rock Chart.
Number 11 is an awesome achievement. The update had it still at number 8 earlier in the week but considering who else is in there it would have been a big ask.
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In the swedish chart The Astonishing got straight in to 3rd place moving David Bowie Blackstar down to 4th place...
1. Justin Bieber - Purpouse
2. Maryam Bryant - Hisingen och hem igen (very popular swedish singer)
3. Dream Theater - The Astonishing
4. David Bowie - Blackstar
5. Lukas Graham - s/t
https://www.sverigetopplistan.se/ (https://www.sverigetopplistan.se/)
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I'm gonna say #6 on the Billboard.
https://hitsdailydouble.com/building_album_chart
This site states 6th in us as of today, wit 27000 plus in sales. Pretty good.
:biggrin:
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I'd expect somewhere between 8-15
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#2 in Finland: https://ifpi.fi/tilastot/virallinen-lista/albumit/2016/5
DT12 reached the same position, while BC&SL and ADTOE peaked at #1.
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#2 in Hungary
https://zene.slagerlistak.hu/top-40-album-dvd-es-valogataslemez-lista/2016/4
#10 in Japan :
https://www.oricon.co.jp/rank/ja/w/%7B%7B%7Bdate%7D%7D%7D/
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It's nice to see an album like this sell really well.
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#2 in Hungary
https://zene.slagerlistak.hu/top-40-album-dvd-es-valogataslemez-lista/2016/4
This calls for a second European leg and a Budapest performance. :metal
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Pleased with the #11 for the UK - Coldplay leaped ahead of us towards the end of the week, following the viral spread of that Chris Martin/James Cordon video clip. We hung in the top 10 for most of it until then. It's still their highest ever in the UK, and the week 1 sales in the UK were also higher than the week 1 sales of the last one - even more impressive, when the market has declined again since last time - much harder to increase the actual numbers, as well as the chart position.
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Excellent, great job Kix!
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https://www.billboard.com/charts/billboard-200 11.
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Oh well.
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But:
https://www.billboard.com/charts/rock-albums
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#11 In both the UK and the US.
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https://www.billboard.com/charts/canadian-albums (https://www.billboard.com/charts/canadian-albums)
Apparently it's number 8 here in Canada.
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Ouch.
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Is 11 bad? I mean, DT has never been a "do it for the chart standings" kind of band, so I imagine they don't really care all too much. I don't really know much about how this kind of thing would affect a band and their label, though.
EDIT: 1 on Hard Rock is pretty cool!
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#11 is not bad. But I think that, even though it is ultimately fairly meaningless, everyone would have hoped that it would have been another "top 10" opener. But by the same token, given that the album was such a risky departure from the norm, it is understandable that it did not open with as high a chart position.
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And it is a double album. It would take more commited buyers to buy it because of the higher price tag.
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And it is a double album. It would take more commited buyers to buy it because of the higher price tag.
Well, Iron Maiden's The Book of Souls is also a double album, yet I was surprised to see it released here in Argentina at the equivalent to $13 (which here is usually the price of single-disc albums).
The Astonishing, as I was expecting, is much more expensive: around $24. So I would understand if casual fans would want to skip buying this one.
Someone from a record store told me Maiden's album was a lot cheaper because they belong to a bigger label, and also that the band ordered the label to keep the prices low. Can anyone confirm any of this?
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Is 11 bad? I mean, DT has never been a "do it for the chart standings" kind of band, so I imagine they don't really care all too much. I don't really know much about how this kind of thing would affect a band and their label, though.
EDIT: 1 on Hard Rock is pretty cool!
11 is not bad at all. DT's highest I think was 6, but around 10 is what I expected.
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#11 In both the UK and the US.
Countries with poor taste :P
It was nr 3 in Sweden :xbones
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And it is a double album. It would take more commited buyers to buy it because of the higher price tag.
Well, Iron Maiden's The Book of Souls is also a double album, yet I was surprised to see it released here in Argentina at the equivalent to $13 (which here is usually the price of single-disc albums).
The Astonishing, as I was expecting, is much more expensive: around $24. So I would understand if casual fans would want to skip buying this one.
Someone from a record store told me Maiden's album was a lot cheaper because they belong to a bigger label, and also that the band demanded the label they had to keep the prices low. Can anyone confirm any of this?
It was $18 at FYE here in the States. Is $18 really that much dough? With the lower gas prices you save that much every week on gas.
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Someone from a record store told me Maiden's album was a lot cheaper because they belong to a bigger label, and also that the band ordered the label to keep the prices low. Can anyone confirm any of this?
Not sure, but that could be right. And I think it is easier to keep the price of a double album to only a couple of bucks more than standard if it is packaged the way Maiden's was--in a slim jewel case that is ultimately the same size as a standard jewel case. The Astonishing was packaged in such a way that it is simply more expensive packaging.
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Does anyone know how many albums we sold?
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It was $18 at FYE here in the States. Is $18 really that much dough? With the lower gas prices you save that much every week on gas.
15$ on Best Buy (US), plus 7% taxes.
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Does anyone know how many albums we sold?
I saw someone mention somewhere else that the first week sales were around 25K in the US. That seems kind of low to me, so I'm waiting for more definitive proof. I mean, BC&SL sold around 40K in week 1, then again, that was in the MP era, so who knows.
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Does anyone know how many albums we sold?
I saw someone mention somewhere else that the first week sales were around 25K in the US. That seems kind of low to me, so I'm waiting for more definitive proof. I mean, BC&SL sold around 40K in week 1, then again, that was in the MP era, so who knows.
And was 7 years ago, as ever year record sales decrease.
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We can extrapolate. Number 8 sold 33,000. Number 0 sold 32,000. Number 10 sold 31,000. So number 11 sold less than that.
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https://dutchcharts.nl/weekchart.asp?cat=a
Dutch Charts:
1. David Bowie
2. Adele
3. Justin Bieber
4. Dream Theater
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11 isn't bad, but it's still a drop. Then again, it's hard to compete against Adele, Justin Bieber and Rihanna.
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7th in Greece.
https://www.ifpi.gr/charts_el.html
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Top ten would be nice but the actual units sold is what I always focus on. Looks like this was a step backwards in the US. Not sure
of the last 2 albums units sold but generally they between 32K - 40K first week in the US.
Maybe just another sign of the decline of physical music.
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^That and also DT's decline in the U.S. >:(
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Or less people buyng just because it is more commitment money-wise because of the much higher price tag. In terms of gross revenues, this album may have earned more than the previous albums.
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Or less people buyng just because it is more commitment money-wise because of the much higher price tag. In terms of gross revenues, this album may have earned more than the previous albums.
Very good point, people who don't know Dream Theater or haven't listened to them in a while are less likely to take a chance with a more expensive album.
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There's also the increase of streaming availability. While I bought my copy because I like holding the physical CD in my hands, there's so many other ways to listen nowadays.
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Yeah in like 15 years you can find your gatefold copy of The Astonishing and go I remember this :)
But in 15 years you can't look back at the that nice MP3 you bought of The Astonishing with it's postage stamp sized artwork.
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There's also the increase of streaming availability. While I bought my copy because I like holding the physical CD in my hands, there's so many other ways to listen nowadays.
They also officially released the whole album on YouTube, and more and more people have stuff like Spotify each year, which I think still counts in the totals, but not to the extent of buying the album.
I got the physical CD ($14.99 at Best Buy) because I wanted the higher quality, I knew I was going to listen to it a lot in my car (it's still quicker to just have the CD in your player than to wait for Spotify to load on your phone, plus the better quality), and also to reward the band for all the hard work they put into this. I do think Spotify kind of shafts artists, so if they go the extra mile and put out good work, I'll buy the CD.
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I think the only time I buy an album from iTunes is when I can't afford the physical product or I think the packaging is shit.
Last album I bought digitally was Sonic Highways because the packaging for the CD was like ::) wtf is this ? You can afford a jewel case AT LEAST.
Not a piece of the flimsiest card known to man folded in half with the CD inside. Fucks sake.
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Yeah in like 15 years you can find your gatefold copy of The Astonishing and go I remember this :)
But in 15 years you can't look back at the that nice MP3 you bought of The Astonishing with it's postage stamp sized artwork.
When I rip the CDs to my computer, I always delete the crappy 200x200 pic of the art and replace it with the largest and most detailed pic on google images I can find and, like:
This: (https://i43.tower.com/images/mm137651047/astonishing-dream-theater-cd-cover-art.jpg) vs This (click for full 3.5k x 3.5k size) (https://img.cdn2.wmgecom.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1024/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/t/h/the_cover.jpg)
I find that sorts out the problem of small album art. Also, I took my desktop background from the second image:
(https://oi66.tinypic.com/2woakxw.jpg)
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Nice ! I will too :) xxx
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It's quite an epic experience loading up your computer and having a massive NOMAC staring in your face. :metal
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It's quite an epic experience loading up your computer and having a massive NOMAC staring in your face. :metal
:nomac: Ah now - ye wouldn't be thinking of listening to any of that music nonsense now would ye ?
[for some reason this Nomac is from Dublin]
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It was $18 at FYE here in the States. Is $18 really that much dough? With the lower gas prices you save that much every week on gas.
I'm not sure if you meant to ask me that, or if it was rhetorical, but $18 is about 250 pesos, with which you eat at McDonalds twice, basically.
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damn, mcdonalds is expensive where you live
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damn, mcdonalds is expensive where you live
Crap - talking about McDonald's has made me hungry. It's midnight here and I still haven't had dinner. Off I go, I guess.
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It was $18 at FYE here in the States. Is $18 really that much dough? With the lower gas prices you save that much every week on gas.
I'm not sure if you meant to ask me that, or if it was rhetorical, but $18 is about 250 pesos, with which you eat at McDonalds twice, basically.
Well, my HDTracks purchase cost me an equivalent of ten Big Mac meals here in the Philippines. So that shows my commitment to an artist to buy original stuff rather than gogin the illegal download route. :lol
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damn, mcdonalds is expensive where you live
Crap - talking about McDonald's has made me hungry. It's midnight here and I still haven't had dinner. Off I go, I guess.
thinking of mcdonalds actually makes me lose my appetite a little these days, haven't been there in years and if i never go again i'll be the better for it
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Now I want a double cheese burger, haven't been to McDonalds in at least a year..
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The Astonishing Billboard prediction thread, brought to you by McDonalds.
How many Big Macs does The Astonishing cost in your country? Does it mean that The Astonishing is expensive, or just that the Big Mac is great value? Find out soon, on DTF!
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Ha ha ha......
Someone with lot's of time on their hands should create the Astonishing index. It should take over from:
https://www.economist.com/content/big-mac-index (https://www.economist.com/content/big-mac-index)
For those who care.... in Sweden you get about 4 Big macs or one Astonishing deal...
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11 in the US is a bit disappointing, but charts are very relative given that they're entirely dependent on other releases. There are a lot of very high profile releases on the charts right now, including several that are new this week.
That said, if first week sales in the US really are sub-30k, yeah, that's not great.
Edit: Huh, apparently the Billboard 200 isn't just album sales anymore. Now they throw a bunch of individual track sales and streaming metrics into the mix.
The actual sales chart in the US now is the 'Top Album Sales' chart; https://www.billboard.com/charts/top-album-sales
On that chart, The Astonishing is #6.
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But those numbers seem to be what was expected. I don't see any reason to be disappointed. People just don't have the time to buy hard copies of music anymore.
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But those numbers seem to be what was expected. I don't see any reason to be disappointed. People just don't have the time to buy hard copies of music anymore.
Even when it was just album sales, the Billboard 200 has included digital album sales for years.
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But those numbers seem to be what was expected. I don't see any reason to be disappointed. People just don't have the time to buy hard copies of music anymore.
Even when it was just album sales, the Billboard 200 has included digital album sales for years.
Really? I did not know that. I thought the ~28,000 number was albums sold.
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The Astonishing Billboard prediction thread, brought to you by McDonalds.
How many Big Macs does The Astonishing cost in your country? Does it mean that The Astonishing is expensive, or just that the Big Mac is great value? Find out soon, on DTF!
:lol.
Now someone needs to make an alternate version of The Astonishing album cover with Big Macs hovering above instead of Nomacs..
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But those numbers seem to be what was expected. I don't see any reason to be disappointed. People just don't have the time to buy hard copies of music anymore.
Even when it was just album sales, the Billboard 200 has included digital album sales for years.
Really? I did not know that. I thought the ~28,000 number was albums sold.
It is. It includes both physical albums, and digital albums as long as it was bought as an album.
That said, something I literally just learned in the past few minutes; the Billboard 200 apparently takes album sales, track sales, and streaming into account now. So ~28,000 is just albums sold, which makes it the 6th best selling album that week. When those other things are taken into account, it gets bumped down to #11.
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People just don't have the time to buy hard copies of music anymore.
This is never going to get old is it? :lol
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People just don't have the time to buy hard copies of music anymore.
This is never going to get old is it? :lol
Aounds like a lyric from The Astonishing! :lol
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People just don't have the time to buy hard copies of music anymore.
This is never going to get old is it? :lol
Aounds like a lyric from The Astonishing! :lol
Even in the Astonishing they didn't have time for hard copies, it was a digital player :lol
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People just don't have the time to buy hard copies of music anymore.
This is never going to get old is it? :lol
Aounds like a lyric from The Astonishing! :lol
People just don't have the time for spell-check anymore.
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People just don't have the time to buy hard copies of music anymore.
This is never going to get old is it? :lol
Aounds like a lyric from The Astonishing! :lol
People just don't have the time for spell-check anymore.
Anymore??
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Well, okay, fair point. :lol
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Anymore??
What are you, a Cambridge professor? Anymore is perfectly acceptable in American English. :P
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Anymore??
What are you, a Cambridge professor? Anymore is perfectly acceptable in American English. :P
Well, Cambridge Massachusetts is about 25 miles away. I'm American, and I speak English. 3 for 3. Yay!!
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People just don't have the time to buy hard copies of music anymore.
This is never going to get old is it? :lol
Aounds like a lyric from The Astonishing! :lol
Dammit king
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Anymore is fine by me.
Alot = no.
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No, I don't think he was saying "anymore" was spelled incorrectly (if he was, the joke is on him). I think he was joking that "anymore" is the wrong word in context, because King's spelling is always bad.
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No, I don't think he was saying "anymore" was spelled incorrectly (if he was, the joke is on him). I think he was joking that "anymore" is the wrong word in context, because King's spelling is always bad.
Correct!
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Oh, for Pete sake...I was trying to make a double joke... never mind.
If I have to explain it...
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11 in the US is a bit disappointing, but charts are very relative given that they're entirely dependent on other releases. There are a lot of very high profile releases on the charts right now, including several that are new this week.
That said, if first week sales in the US really are sub-30k, yeah, that's not great.
Edit: Huh, apparently the Billboard 200 isn't just album sales anymore. Now they throw a bunch of individual track sales and streaming metrics into the mix.
The actual sales chart in the US now is the 'Top Album Sales' chart; https://www.billboard.com/charts/top-album-sales
On that chart, The Astonishing is #6.
Woah, that's very interesting. Is the Top Album Sales chart essentially what the billboard used to be the last time DT released an album?
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So based on actual album sales i was right after all :hat
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Oh, for Pete sake...I was trying to make a double joke... never mind.
We know. You've been TRIPLE JOKED!
;D
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Number 2 in Norway, their highest ever! Above JB, Bowie and Adele :tup
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#1 On the US Billboard Rock Album Chart
https://www.facebook.com/dreamtheater/photos/np.1455140684270162.100004736863603/10153243461232181
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#11 in Poland :
https://olis.onyx.pl/listy/index.asp?lang=
Recent positions:
ToT - 44
Octavarium - 8
SC - 10
BC&SL - 4
ADTOE - 7
DT - 4
#37 in Denmark :
https://www.danishcharts.com/showitem.asp?interpret=Dream+Theater&titel=The+Astonishing&cat=a
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11 in the US is a bit disappointing, but charts are very relative given that they're entirely dependent on other releases. There are a lot of very high profile releases on the charts right now, including several that are new this week.
That said, if first week sales in the US really are sub-30k, yeah, that's not great.
Edit: Huh, apparently the Billboard 200 isn't just album sales anymore. Now they throw a bunch of individual track sales and streaming metrics into the mix.
The actual sales chart in the US now is the 'Top Album Sales' chart; https://www.billboard.com/charts/top-album-sales
On that chart, The Astonishing is #6.
Woah, that's very interesting. Is the Top Album Sales chart essentially what the billboard used to be the last time DT released an album?
It seems that way.
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can someone explain where the sales numbers came from? I don't see anything on Billboard's site that shows numbers, only positions.
what i find interesting about how the Billboard 200 chart has changed is that it really shows that DT is a band that can sell albums, not one that is relying on streaming and digital sales. Compare TA to the new Megadeth album: Dystopia landed at 3 on the Billboard 200, but 2 on the Total Albums chart. Not a wide margin, it shows that they sold a good amount of albums, but also did well with streaming and digital sales relative to other releases.
TA on the other hand, when looking at the difference from 200 to Total Albums, makes a pretty sizable jump from 11 to 6, showing that Dream Theater were able to sell a lot of albums, but once they have to compete with artists with massive streaming and downloads, they weren't as strong. This makes DT's strategy of releasing the album on youtube interesting, as I wonder if their streams or downloads might have been higher without that as an option.
Someone can correct me if i'm wrong, but my understanding is that "album sales" on the billboard 200 are now aggregated from all sources, even if the stream or download is of a single track. So Justin Bieber can put out a shitty album with one great track that blows up and gets tons of downloads, yet that boosts his album sales numbers; doesn't that feel unfair when comparing to a 34-track rock opera that isn't relying on singles? Or am i just a whiny fanboy ;D
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I think DT's fans are more dedicatd to the band and also are more likely to be interested in the best sound so purchasing the CD is the best option vs. streaming not only for sound, but for support of the band.
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This! I bought two copies of the album and gave one to a friend. Good way to spread the word. Not always easy on the wallet, but worth it to me.
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I think it's because of having lyrics to understand the story a bit.
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This! I bought two copies of the album and gave one to a friend. Good way to spread the word. Not always easy on the wallet, but worth it to me.
I did exactly the same thing, and it wasn't easy on my wallet either. He had given Johnny Ramone's autobiography to me as a late Christmas present, and it's an expensive book, so I had to answer back.
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Um. No, #11 isn't bad at all. Look who is above them. Justin Bieber, Adele, Twenty One Pilots. It's not like they're being overtaken by a bunch of obscure artists that no one has ever heard of. The only people ahead of them are the top pop artists who you'd EXPECT to be ahead of them.
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A bad quality stream of bieber doesn't lessen the quality of his songs, but we DT fans could not stand a bad sound when listening to our band ! I think sound quality for this band is a criteria for buying the albums physical/vynil/mp3/raw...
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Album sold 30k in US. https://www.billboard.com/articles/columns/chart-beat/6874761/dream-theater-first-no-1-top-rock-albums
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Last week #3 in Sweden, now #54.... the fans buy it on release day :rollin
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Um. No, #11 isn't bad at all. Look who is above them. Justin Bieber, Adele, Twenty One Pilots. It's not like they're being overtaken by a bunch of obscure artists that no one has ever heard of. The only people ahead of them are the top pop artists who you'd EXPECT to be ahead of them.
Exactly. Nothing to be ashamed of here.
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I'm curious to see how many have been sold worldwide now in the first two weeks..
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Last week #3 in Sweden, now #54.... the fans buy it on release day :rollin
In Germany, it went from #5 to #41, so yeah, but that`s with quite some metal bands. The new Avantasia album was #2 last week, now it`s also along #30-40.
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30k units sold isn't bad at all. The decline from DT12 is about what you'd expect considering what I think is a general decline in album sales in general.
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Not surprising to me that this is a bit down on the last few albums. Number one, it's a double album so I would guess is more expensive. Number two, it is a pretty divisive album, especially if you are predominantly a metal fan, which I would guess many DT fans are. The album was up on YouTube for free so people could try before they buy. I would think a lot of the more metal DT fans would be horrified at the Disney show tune style of many songs and would not have bought the album. I know they have streamed the previous two albums but they were not huge departures from the DT template and would not have instantly scared people off. I suppose you could argue that the shorter tracks and less instrumental noodling may make this more accessible but, again, a double album of musical theatre is probably a bit of a daunting prospect when trying to attract new fans.
I was surprised it charted as well as it did in the UK and am also surprised at how well it's been received on here and over at the MP forum. Some have expressed their dissatisfaction but most seem to be full of praise.
I personally love the album and haven't listened to anything else since getting it but am not shocked to see sales are a little down in the US at least.
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Not surprising to me that this is a bit down on the last few albums. Number one, it's a double album so I would guess is more expensive. Number two, it is a pretty divisive album, especially if you are predominantly a metal fan, which I would guess many DT fans are. The album was up on YouTube for free so people could try before they buy. I would think a lot of the more metal DT fans would be horrified at the Disney show tune style of many songs and would not have bought the album. I know they have streamed the previous two albums but they were not huge departures from the DT template and would not have instantly scared people off. I suppose you could argue that the shorter tracks and less instrumental noodling may make this more accessible but, again, a double album of musical theatre is probably a bit of a daunting prospect when trying to attract new fans.
Well, declining sales across all music recently could be a reason too, but I think what you said would probably be some significant factors as well.
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You guys think there's any chance of a grammy nomination this album?
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You guys think there's any chance of a grammy nomination this album?
Doubtful, even though there are several songs worthy of it on this album.. The whole album should be up for a Grammy IMO..
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You guys think there's any chance of a grammy nomination this album?
Doubtful, even though there are several songs worthy of it on this album.. The whole album should be up for a Grammy IMO..
That's what I meant, the album as a whole.
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You guys think there's any chance of a grammy nomination this album?
Doubtful, even though there are several songs worthy of it on this album.. The whole album should be up for a Grammy IMO..
That's what I meant, the album as a whole.
I do think that is possible, especially given the Grammy cred of 2 previous nominations and the good reviews almost everywhere.
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https://www.billboard.com/articles/columns/chart-beat/6874761/dream-theater-first-no-1-top-rock-albums
EDIT: oh, it was already here...
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All considered, 30,000 in first week US sales is pretty decent.
I don't think the slight dip has much to do with the changing face of music sales between 2013 and now. I think it has more to do with the concept/style being a bit polarizing. Personally, I like that they weren't hesitant to limit the amount of metal and heaviness; that they were willing to go all in on the 'musical' style. I could definitely see some DT fans, especially some of the fans they gained from SC onward, not being as into it. I love a well done musical, and honestly would consider comparisons to 'Disney movies' a compliment, given the style. There are definitely some who won't even give that sort of thing a shot though.
I also didn't realize that this is their first #1 on the US Rock chart. That's pretty cool.
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Even though it has sold less than DT12, I believe that it will make more money due to a price increase for the double album format.
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You guys think there's any chance of a grammy nomination this album?
I don't think so, and there is also no formal single this time. But it at least has a few factors in favour for them; They already have had two nominations, David Campbell's involvement probably attracts some additional interest within the industry, and this album has some of the most accessible tunes for non-metal/DT fans (my parents, for example, love it and it reminds them of classic rock opera's such as Jesus Christ Superstar and Tommy). Furthermore, I am also curious about the further plans DT has for TA, such as the novel and possible other related works. Those could add to TA's recognition as well. But still, I doubt it.
Good to see the album is doing well!
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Last week #3 in Sweden, now #54.... the fans buy it on release day :rollin
In Finland it dropped from #2 to #9, but that probably has something to do with the fact that one big record store chain ran out of copies of it in the first week, so some fans probably had to wait.
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Last week #3 in Sweden, now #54.... the fans buy it on release day :rollin
In Finland it dropped from #2 to #9, but that probably has something to do with the fact that one big record store chain ran out of copies of it in the first week, so some fans probably had to wait.
That's typical with a DT release. Always a huge drop after the first week on the charts.
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But those numbers seem to be what was expected. I don't see any reason to be disappointed. People just don't have the time to buy hard copies of music anymore.
Even when it was just album sales, the Billboard 200 has included digital album sales for years.
Really? I did not know that. I thought the ~28,000 number was albums sold.
It is. It includes both physical albums, and digital albums as long as it was bought as an album.
That said, something I literally just learned in the past few minutes; the Billboard 200 apparently takes album sales, track sales, and streaming into account now. So ~28,000 is just albums sold, which makes it the 6th best selling album that week. When those other things are taken into account, it gets bumped down to #11.
28,000? So does that mean I just about nailed it?
28,000 in the US. Who knows what chart position that equates?
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All considered, 30,000 in first week US sales is pretty decent.
I don't think the slight dip has much to do with the changing face of music sales between 2013 and now. I think it has more to do with the concept/style being a bit polarizing. Personally, I like that they weren't hesitant to limit the amount of metal and heaviness; that they were willing to go all in on the 'musical' style. I could definitely see some DT fans, especially some of the fans they gained from SC onward, not being as into it. I love a well done musical, and honestly would consider comparisons to 'Disney movies' a compliment, given the style. There are definitely some who won't even give that sort of thing a shot though.
I also didn't realize that this is their first #1 on the US Rock chart. That's pretty cool.
OK, so 30,000, not 28,000.
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For numbers, I'm going entirely off numbers other people in this thread have quoted.
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There's more than 30,000 fans in the US. Where's the loyalty?
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first week sales of TA in the US 30,000
first week sales of DT 12 in the US 34,000
first week sales of BCASL in the US 40,000
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first week sales of TA in the US 30,000
first week sales of DT 12 in the US 34,000
first week sales of BCASL in the US 40,000
So if we go by gross revenue instead of units sold, TA got them the most money.
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first week sales of TA in the US 30,000
first week sales of DT 12 in the US 34,000
first week sales of BCASL in the US 40,000
So if we go by gross revenue instead of units sold, TA got them the most money.
Did it? Would being a double album make a difference to the royalties DT makes on it? I'm also guessing that the album has to recoup more to break even given how much more music they had to write/record.
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I don't know how it works in America, but here the royalties are computed as a percentage of the revenue. If so, then a higher priced double album would earn more royalties.
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I don't know how it works in America, but here the royalties are computed as a percentage of the revenue. If so, then a higher priced double album would earn more royalties.
That's not how I was under the impression it worked for record deals, at least for physical sales. Probably for digital sales.
I think the vast majority of their income would come from touring anyway.
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This ASCAP post seems to suggest that the royalty is a percentage of retail price.
https://www.ascap.com/music-career/articles-advice/music-money/money-recording.aspx
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Maybe it is, but as it also says, it has to cover costs, such as recording an album that's twice as long, the hiring of David Campbell to write the orchestral arrangements, the cost of the orchestra/choir to learn and record the parts, and the usual music video etc, plus they took a bit longer than their usual album cycle in general. While the gross revenue of the album may be higher, the difference to the band may be negligible, or more, or even less. The positive spin may be entirely moot for all we know.
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I think #11 is still pretty damn incredible for a band like Dream Theater, let alone #6 several years back.
Black Clouds place might have been a fluke because of Portnoy's hype he created.
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Black Clouds place might have been a fluke because of Portnoy's hype he created.
Or it may have been based on DT having a growing fanbase who wanted to buy the new album. It was a steady uphill progression at the time, so nothing about it suggests fluke or hype.
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Yeah, I think that was the peak of DT's overall popularity.
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It's not a favorable trend but for the most part it's industry wide. Frankly I don't know how RR recoups the $$ for the studio. It's
hard to imagine album sales worldwide would cover $400K - $500K studio time. It's also hard to envision a path for the studio's
continued profitability in this continual market decline. DT must still make them a decent profit though because I remember them being
pretty pumped when DT signed the latest contract.
I really don't know if MP being gone is a factor but my gut instinct says it is, albeit even if it only represents a 5% - 10% decline in
sales. Those numbers show a 25% overall decline since BC&SL. That is pretty significant. For us no big deal...but for executives
(no matter what industry) negative trend lines are nobody's friend.
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Those numbers show a 25% overall decline since BC&SL. That is pretty significant. For us no big deal...but for executives
(no matter what industry) negative trend lines are nobody's friend.
If you compare it to the decline of album sales in general, you'll probably find they're relatively holding steady. If there was a major issue, I doubt they would have let DT record this double album.
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It might also be possible that more people held off buying it until they heard it or read the reviews after it was released given the significant stylistic changes for TA. Maybe we will see less of a drop off on following weeks?
I do think the reduction of metal has hurt sales. It is sad because there is so much excellent music they are missing out on.
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People would rather listen to the hippity hop.
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I think their next album will sell better.
Many were probably put off by the concept and double albums don't seem to do as well.
I hope the next album is just a collection of strong songs that aren't weighed down by a concept (something like Awake)
Megadeth just came back with a killer album after what was considered a dud by many fans and hit #3 on the Billboard charts.
Dream Theater can easily do the same.
They make their money touring anyway.
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I think their next album will sell better.
Many were probably put off by the concept and double albums don't seem to do as well.
I hope the next album is just a collection of strong songs that aren't weighed down by a concept (something like Awake)
Megadeth just came back with a killer album after what was considered a dud by many fans and hit #3 on the Billboard charts.
Dream Theater can easily do the same.
They make their money touring anyway.
TA has done really well sales-wise though.
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2nd week, the Astonishing dropped from 11 to 126 on the charts.
For comparison:
BC&SL dropped from 6 to 46
ADTOE dropped from 8 to 57
DT12 dropped from 7 to 38
So it's a bigger second week drop-off than normal. Still not bad, but worth noting.
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Those numbers show a 25% overall decline since BC&SL. That is pretty significant. For us no big deal...but for executives
(no matter what industry) negative trend lines are nobody's friend.
If you compare it to the decline of album sales in general, you'll probably find they're relatively holding steady. If there was a major issue, I doubt they would have let DT record this double album.
This. Decline? Sure, but there's been a decline for everyone who isn't Adele.
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Those numbers show a 25% overall decline since BC&SL. That is pretty significant. For us no big deal...but for executives
(no matter what industry) negative trend lines are nobody's friend.
If you compare it to the decline of album sales in general, you'll probably find they're relatively holding steady. If there was a major issue, I doubt they would have let DT record this double album.
This. Decline? Sure, but there's been a decline for everyone who isn't Adele.
Guys if you had read the first part of my post you would both see that I said this very thing. It's an industry wide trend.
All I'm saying is that executives don't like negative/declining trends. They expect performance. Record labels are no different
than any corporation.
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Those numbers show a 25% overall decline since BC&SL. That is pretty significant. For us no big deal...but for executives
(no matter what industry) negative trend lines are nobody's friend.
If you compare it to the decline of album sales in general, you'll probably find they're relatively holding steady. If there was a major issue, I doubt they would have let DT record this double album.
This. Decline? Sure, but there's been a decline for everyone who isn't Adele.
Yup. Adele definitely keeps getting bigger :neverusethis:
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Guys if you had read the first part of my post you would both see that I said this very thing. It's an industry wide trend.
All I'm saying is that executives don't like negative/declining trends. They expect performance. Record labels are no different
than any corporation.
TA sells more for each unit, though. The problem is reduced massively due to that (as well as people buying expensive deluxe editions).
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Those numbers show a 25% overall decline since BC&SL. That is pretty significant. For us no big deal...but for executives
(no matter what industry) negative trend lines are nobody's friend.
If you compare it to the decline of album sales in general, you'll probably find they're relatively holding steady. If there was a major issue, I doubt they would have let DT record this double album.
This. Decline? Sure, but there's been a decline for everyone who isn't Adele.
Guys if you had read the first part of my post you would both see that I said this very thing. It's an industry wide trend.
All I'm saying is that executives don't like negative/declining trends. They expect performance. Record labels are no different
than any corporation.
That huge of a drop isn't due to the decline. It is due to the album not being received as well as past albums.
If they put out an album that is better received next the decline won't be as steep.
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How do you know that?
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Guys if you had read the first part of my post you would both see that I said this very thing. It's an industry wide trend.
All I'm saying is that executives don't like negative/declining trends. They expect performance. Record labels are no different
than any corporation.
TA sells more for each unit, though. The problem is reduced massively due to that (as well as people buying expensive deluxe editions).
I think what you mean is net revenue is higher per unit for TA.
I get a vibe that some people feel a need to jump into DT support mode when talking about this and that's fine. I support them
by buying multiple copies of the albums I love. I bought 2 copies of TA and sent one to my daughter in Florida. But the facts
really can't be disputed as it relates to DT units sold in the US. The trend is negative for multiple albums now. Yes it's industry wide
and we all know that but for a very long time DT and it's unbelievably loyal fans kept the bands trend line moving up. Now it's
moving down. It's OK if they peaked and are slowly moving downward now. It's a normal thing for a band that's been around
this long.
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Those numbers show a 25% overall decline since BC&SL. That is pretty significant. For us no big deal...but for executives
(no matter what industry) negative trend lines are nobody's friend.
If you compare it to the decline of album sales in general, you'll probably find they're relatively holding steady. If there was a major issue, I doubt they would have let DT record this double album.
This. Decline? Sure, but there's been a decline for everyone who isn't Adele.
I really don't know any numbers, but I'm reasonably certain Steven Wilson's album sales have been pointing up, not down.
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Those numbers show a 25% overall decline since BC&SL. That is pretty significant. For us no big deal...but for executives
(no matter what industry) negative trend lines are nobody's friend.
If you compare it to the decline of album sales in general, you'll probably find they're relatively holding steady. If there was a major issue, I doubt they would have let DT record this double album.
This. Decline? Sure, but there's been a decline for everyone who isn't Adele.
Guys if you had read the first part of my post you would both see that I said this very thing. It's an industry wide trend.
All I'm saying is that executives don't like negative/declining trends. They expect performance. Record labels are no different
than any corporation.
But we're looking at sales alone here, whereas Billboard has, quite rightly, begun recognising the emergence of streaming as well. And we don't have the stats on that, presumably.
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I think what you mean is net revenue is higher per unit for TA.
I get a vibe that some people feel a need to jump into DT support mode when talking about this and that's fine. I support them
by buying multiple copies of the albums I love. I bought 2 copies of TA and sent one to my daughter in Florida. But the facts
really can't be disputed as it relates to DT units sold in the US. The trend is negative for multiple albums now. Yes it's industry wide
and we all know that but for a very long time DT and it's unbelievably loyal fans kept the bands trend line moving up. Now it's
moving down. It's OK if they peaked and are slowly moving downward now. It's a normal thing for a band that's been around
this long.
Not jumping into 'DT support mode', just saying that they aren't going to be in trouble in terms of money. It may have even made more money than DT12. I don't think that's a completely irrational thing to think.
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I don't think they will be "in trouble" financially. But that being said, let's not make any mistake about it that doing something so different is a big risk for a band, and that risk does indeed translate to financial risk.
I have posted info before and there is lots out there on the Internet about album sales and how little money a band actually sees from an album. There are tons of hidden expenses and loads of people who need to get paid in order for an album to be recorded, CDs and records pressed, and those albums to find their way to music retailers so that we can buy them. Those costs all need to be covered before a band sees a penny from album sales. It isn't just the cost to rent a studio and the materials costs to press those physical albums. Those expenses are only the tip of the iceberg. I know for a fact that, in the past, a band would have to sell hundreds of thousands of albums before seeing a penny from album sales (in other words, the band doesn't just get a percentage of how ever many albums are sold; all the up-front costs get paid first as the album hits the shelves and begins selling copies, and only after all the expenses have been covered and everyone gets paid does the band finally start to get a cut of whatever sells after that point). I know this has changed somewhat in the last decade in terms of the actual number of units that need to be sold before a band sees a profit, but I do not know how much, and I know for a fact that the general principle still stands: there are a ton of "hidden expenses" associated with making an album such that a band still must sell a LOT of albums before seeing any of the revenues from that album whatsoever. How that translates to a band like DT who sell the types of numbers DT has sold on recent albums means that either, (1) the band eventually sees very small revenue numbers from album sales, or (2) the band takes a loss on album sales (which means they end up owing money to the label and to others associated with the process), but uses album sales as a loss leader to be made up on tour.
Touring has its own set of issues. Not sure whether you have seen what has been posted in the past, but again, there is a lot out there on this forum and in the Web in general about how, similarly, there are a TON of hidden expenses and folks who need to be paid associated with touring such that a band generally gets paid only a small fraction of what the general public assumes they would get paid for a tour. DT make money, sure, but they aren't rolling in the bucks from going on tour. If the album sales are a financial loss, the money they owe will generally come right off the top of the tour revenue and be an added expense before the band sees any touring money as well.
And that brings us to the tour for The Astonishing. This is a risky tour. For starters, there is the obvious fact that this album is different from the norm. That in and of itself could keep people away. Second, the fact that they are not playing any additional songs and are ONLY presenting The Astonishing could keep people away. For a band like DT that already operates on relatively thin margins financially, it is entirely possible that this album and tour cycle could generate substantially less revenue than past albums. It isn't inconceivable that it could even generate a loss. At this point, we just don't know.
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^Excellent post and spot on.
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I don't think they will be "in trouble" financially. But that being said, let's not make any mistake about it that doing something so different is a big risk for a band, and that risk translates to financial risk.
I have posted info before and there is lots out there on the Internet about album sales and how little money a band actually sees from an album. There are tons of hidden expenses and loads of people who need to get paid in order for an album to be recorded, CDs and records pressed, and those albums to find their way to music retailers so that we can buy them. Those costs all need to be covered before a band sees a penny from album sales. It isn't just the cost to rent a studio and the materials costs to press those physical albums. Those expenses are only the tip of the iceberg. I know for a fact that, in the past, a band would have to sell hundreds of thousands of albums before seeing a penny from album sales. I know this has changed somewhat in the last decade in terms of the actual number of units that need to be sold before a band sees a profit, but I do not know how much, and I know for a fact that the general principle still stands: there are a ton of "hidden expenses" associated with making an album such that a band still must sell a LOT of albums before seeing any of the revenues from that album whatsoever. How that translates to a band like DT who sell the types of numbers DT has sold on recent albums means that either, (1) the band eventually sees very small revenue numbers from album sales, or (2) the band takes a loss on album sales (which means they end up owing money to the label and to others associated with the process), but uses album sales as a loss leader to be made up on tour.
Touring has its own set of issues. Not sure whether you have seen what has been posted in the past, but again, there is a lot out there on this forum and in the Web in general about how, similarly, there are a TON of hidden expenses and folks who need to be paid associated with touring such that a band generally gets paid only a small fraction of what the general public assumes they would get paid for a tour. DT make money, sure, but they aren't rolling in the bucks from going on tour. If the album sales are a financial loss, the money they owe will generally come right off the top of the tour revenue and be an added expense before the band sees any touring money as well.
And that brings us to the tour for The Astonishing. This is a risky tour. For starters, there is the obvious fact that this album is different from the norm. That in and of itself could keep people away. Second, the fact that they are not playing any additional songs and are ONLY presenting The Astonishing could keep people away. For a band like DT that already operates on relatively thin margins financially, it is entirely possible that this album and tour cycle could generate substantially less revenue than past albums. It isn't inconceivable that it could even generate a loss. At this point, we just don't know.
Ouch. Forgot about all this.
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Another risk with this tour is the price of the tickets...
At least here in Sweden they are more than double the amount of previous tours. If the tickets sell it should help recoup the money spent on the show "full visuals" and all. But if they don't sell...
I balked a bit when I saw the price of the tickets then I bought three (one for me both nights in Stockholm and one for my son the second night).
Sure that a lot of people wonder if it really is worth all the money to see a band you usually pay much less to see. So a huge risk there....
Hope it pays of for them in the end.
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How do you know that?
Because it dropped position much further than other albums in the past.
There is a a huge difference between dropping 30 to 40 spots vs dropping 115 spots on the 2nd week.
If they put out an album that generates lots of praise next time up their album will not drop as fast.
Other rock/metal bands that put out albums that were not as well received as their typical albums also saw huge 2nd week drops in recent history. Albums that are more well received by their fan base have longer staying power (even though sales are down for almost everyone through the years)
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The next album will probably more like A Dramatic Turn Of Events.
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The next album will probably more like A Dramatic Turn Of Events.
I am hoping for an Awake. 10 to 12 songs that stand on there own without having to fit withing a concept.
ADTOE was a really good album though even though it felt a little safe and didn't take as many twists and turns as I would have liked.
I am glad that they seem to have shaken the SC and Black Clouds syndrome though in where they turn songs that could have worked great as 6 or 7 minute songs into 14 minute songs. I love their epics as much as the next guy but not every song has to be an epic.
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How do you know that?
Because it dropped position much further than other albums in the past.
There is a a huge difference between dropping 30 to 40 spots vs dropping 115 spots on the 2nd week.
If they put out an album that generates lots of praise next time up their album will not drop as fast.
Other rock/metal bands that put out albums that were not as well received as their typical albums also saw huge 2nd week drops in recent history. Albums that are more well received by their fan base have longer staying power (even though sales are down for almost everyone through the years)
That still does not prove that this album was not well received. There are a number of possible variables that could potentially explain the drop-off that are just as likely an explanation.
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How do you know that?
Because it dropped position much further than other albums in the past.
There is a a huge difference between dropping 30 to 40 spots vs dropping 115 spots on the 2nd week.
If they put out an album that generates lots of praise next time up their album will not drop as fast.
Other rock/metal bands that put out albums that were not as well received as their typical albums also saw huge 2nd week drops in recent history. Albums that are more well received by their fan base have longer staying power (even though sales are down for almost everyone through the years)
That still does not prove that this album was not well received. There are a number of possible variables that could potentially explain the drop-off that are just as likely an explanation.
It seems to be less well received than their other albums. I am seeing a lot more negativity out there on this one. Amazon reviews are a good example.
There could be other variables of course but that is a huge abnormal dropoff
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It's not a favorable trend but for the most part it's industry wide. Frankly I don't know how RR recoups the $$ for the studio. It's
hard to imagine album sales worldwide would cover $400K - $500K studio time. It's also hard to envision a path for the studio's
continued profitability in this continual market decline. DT must still make them a decent profit though because I remember them being
pretty pumped when DT signed the latest contract.
I really don't know if MP being gone is a factor but my gut instinct says it is, albeit even if it only represents a 5% - 10% decline in
sales. Those numbers show a 25% overall decline since BC&SL. That is pretty significant. For us no big deal...but for executives
(no matter what industry) negative trend lines are nobody's friend.
I wonder what kind of money the band makes on digital album sales, also having the album on sites like spotify and whatnot, or just the money made off a single song download on itunes.
These days it's more than just the number of albums sold, there is a digital market place that allows you to only buy the song/s you care about. I'm quite curious as to how that type of transaction makes money for the record label and/or the band.
I have got to imagine that RR, no matter how much upfront costs were, are making a profit by having DT be on their label. Otherwise they would not be there, or more to the point, would not have been able to sign an extension to stay there.
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How do you know that?
Because it dropped position much further than other albums in the past.
There is a a huge difference between dropping 30 to 40 spots vs dropping 115 spots on the 2nd week.
If they put out an album that generates lots of praise next time up their album will not drop as fast.
Other rock/metal bands that put out albums that were not as well received as their typical albums also saw huge 2nd week drops in recent history. Albums that are more well received by their fan base have longer staying power (even though sales are down for almost everyone through the years)
That still does not prove that this album was not well received. There are a number of possible variables that could potentially explain the drop-off that are just as likely an explanation.
Which could include:
1. Double album with a heftier tag price
2. The full album is now released for free on streaming in Youtube
3. The album could be streamed in sites like Spotify
I maintain that this being a double album changes the dynamics of how its sales should be analyzed because it demands more commitment. So this is not really targeted to the casual fan.
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I hardly think this album / tour will be the end of the band.
They can tour a regular setlist later in the year and put out a more traditional DT album in late 2017.
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The album has sold at least 124K copies worldwide.
https://www.mediatraffic.de/albums-week06-2016.htm - 95K
https://www.mediatraffic.de/albums-week07-2016.htm - 29K
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They have almost 4 million likes on facebook. Why can't they get more albums sales? Most of those likes can't be just casual fans can they?
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They have almost 4 million likes on facebook. Why can't they get more albums sales? Most of those likes can't be just casual fans can they?
Liking does not involve money. And a lot of listeners do it through streaming, Youtube, or illegal downloads.
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I like plenty of bands on FB that I love the old material of, but couldn't care less about what they release now. Liking a band on Facebook doesn't mean they'll automatically buy a new album in the first week, if at all.
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I like plenty of bands on FB that I love the old material of, but couldn't care less about what they release now. Liking a band on Facebook doesn't mean they'll automatically buy a new album in the first week, if at all.
I understand that, but 3.6 million people is quite a lot.
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I like plenty of bands on FB that I love the old material of, but couldn't care less about what they release now. Liking a band on Facebook doesn't mean they'll automatically buy a new album in the first week, if at all.
I understand that, but 3.6 million people is quite a lot.
You're right, it's a small percentage, less than 1% who bought the album in the first week. I wonder how other bands compare, if you compare the proportion of likes to sales?
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I like a ton of bands and artists and couldn't possibly afford to buy every album by each of them. I stream quite a lot, and only really buy albums by bands I either particularly want to support, or where I think the album is likely to get frequent listens. My brother and I also sometimes share our purchases with each other.
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The album has sold at least 124K copies worldwide.
https://www.mediatraffic.de/albums-week06-2016.htm - 95K
https://www.mediatraffic.de/albums-week07-2016.htm - 29K
Pretty cool :)
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The album has sold at least 124K copies worldwide.
https://www.mediatraffic.de/albums-week06-2016.htm - 95K
https://www.mediatraffic.de/albums-week07-2016.htm - 29K
Pretty cool :)
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I don't think they will be "in trouble" financially. But that being said, let's not make any mistake about it that doing something so different is a big risk for a band, and that risk does indeed translate to financial risk.
I have posted info before and there is lots out there on the Internet about album sales and how little money a band actually sees from an album. There are tons of hidden expenses and loads of people who need to get paid in order for an album to be recorded, CDs and records pressed, and those albums to find their way to music retailers so that we can buy them. Those costs all need to be covered before a band sees a penny from album sales. It isn't just the cost to rent a studio and the materials costs to press those physical albums. Those expenses are only the tip of the iceberg. I know for a fact that, in the past, a band would have to sell hundreds of thousands of albums before seeing a penny from album sales (in other words, the band doesn't just get a percentage of how ever many albums are sold; all the up-front costs get paid first as the album hits the shelves and begins selling copies, and only after all the expenses have been covered and everyone gets paid does the band finally start to get a cut of whatever sells after that point). I know this has changed somewhat in the last decade in terms of the actual number of units that need to be sold before a band sees a profit, but I do not know how much, and I know for a fact that the general principle still stands: there are a ton of "hidden expenses" associated with making an album such that a band still must sell a LOT of albums before seeing any of the revenues from that album whatsoever. How that translates to a band like DT who sell the types of numbers DT has sold on recent albums means that either, (1) the band eventually sees very small revenue numbers from album sales, or (2) the band takes a loss on album sales (which means they end up owing money to the label and to others associated with the process), but uses album sales as a loss leader to be made up on tour.
Touring has its own set of issues. Not sure whether you have seen what has been posted in the past, but again, there is a lot out there on this forum and in the Web in general about how, similarly, there are a TON of hidden expenses and folks who need to be paid associated with touring such that a band generally gets paid only a small fraction of what the general public assumes they would get paid for a tour. DT make money, sure, but they aren't rolling in the bucks from going on tour. If the album sales are a financial loss, the money they owe will generally come right off the top of the tour revenue and be an added expense before the band sees any touring money as well.
And that brings us to the tour for The Astonishing. This is a risky tour. For starters, there is the obvious fact that this album is different from the norm. That in and of itself could keep people away. Second, the fact that they are not playing any additional songs and are ONLY presenting The Astonishing could keep people away. For a band like DT that already operates on relatively thin margins financially, it is entirely possible that this album and tour cycle could generate substantially less revenue than past albums. It isn't inconceivable that it could even generate a loss. At this point, we just don't know.
There's a great documentary on Netflix or Amazon Prime called 'Artifact' that details a lot of this stuff. It follows 30 Seconds to Mars through their troubles with record companies, et al. I had never heard their music - so that part was kind of a nice treat.
Anyway - I can think of many other professions I'd choose other than being in a band. The finances are ridiculously complex and the industry is loaded with douchebags who care very little about art. After watching I found myself immediately thinking about DT and how they've been able to do it for so long with relatively little commercial exposure.
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Building up a super loyal fanbase goes a long way to getting some financial stability, which has helped massively. You do well on merch sales, and a big chunk of people will loyaly buy every album. Hard to do though, and happens much more in some genres than in others. 30 Seconds to Mars may have pretty good commercial exposure, but that doesn't necessarily translate into a loyal fanbase that will actually buy your stuff.
Another thing that helps DT is their virtuosity on their respective instruments, which gets them a ton of free gear through sponsorship deals helping to keep costs down, plus opens up all sorts of doors for other ways to earn money.
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Building up a super loyal fanbase goes a long way to getting some financial stability, which has helped massively. You do well on merch sales, and a big chunk of people will loyaly buy every album. Hard to do though, and happens much more in some genres than in others. 30 Seconds to Mars may have pretty good commercial exposure, but that doesn't necessarily translate into a loyal fanbase that will actually buy your stuff.
Another thing that helps DT is their virtuosity on their respective instruments, which gets them a ton of free gear through sponsorship deals helping to keep costs down, plus opens up all sorts of doors for other ways to earn money.
Totally agreed. Was a very interesting piece in that is shed light on a lot of Recording Industry practices that I was not at all aware of. Breakage reimbursement fees (even on digital sales), 360 deals where the Record Company takes a piece from EVERY revenue stream affiliated with the artist (including Merch). It was stated a few times - the Record Industry's business model is essentially to screw the artist.
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Building up a super loyal fanbase goes a long way to getting some financial stability, which has helped massively. You do well on merch sales, and a big chunk of people will loyaly buy every album. Hard to do though, and happens much more in some genres than in others. 30 Seconds to Mars may have pretty good commercial exposure, but that doesn't necessarily translate into a loyal fanbase that will actually buy your stuff.
Another thing that helps DT is their virtuosity on their respective instruments, which gets them a ton of free gear through sponsorship deals helping to keep costs down, plus opens up all sorts of doors for other ways to earn money.
I think the "loyalty" factor is HUGE with DT. I can't think of another band I follow that has the same kind of fan loyalty. You are
spot on with this. And I'm not trying to stir the pot whatsoever but I think MP knew that this loyalty was a reciprocated
relationship and thus he tried to 'keep money in the bank' so to speak by doing so many of those extra things like the
official boots because he knew that the extra time he invested payed off when the fans reciprocated by buying DT stuff and
going to DT shows. 'I'll go the extra mile for you because I know you are going the extra mile for our band'...
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Iron Maiden and Rush probably have the most loyal fan base in the world. Dream Theater has the same type of die-hard fans, just not as many..