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Dream Theater => Dream Theater => Topic started by: SnakeEyes on November 13, 2015, 10:29:23 AM
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What is this song about? Someone was drowning, another person tried to save that person, but drowned in the process? What's the, "I gave you my hand, you would not take it," .... the person who was originally drowning was too afraid to take the other person's hand, so they both died?
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Throughout the song's lyrics, Petrucci tells of a person who dies in the process of saving a woman from drowning. However, the woman who is saved is filled with "regret and sorrow" until she is able to re-unite with her rescuer.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systematic_Chaos#The_Ministry_of_Lost_Souls
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Wasn't the inspiration a story or a manga? or that was just for In the Presence of Enemies and Forsaken? (I believe The Dark Eternal Night was their doing as well, with no specific reference save the obvious inspiration from horror stories / tropes)
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Welcome to 2007.
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Welcome to 2007.
uny
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Well, this is it. What a quick life for a thread.
I just wanna say: TMoLS has the BEST JP/JR unison. EVER. PERIOD. :metal
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What's "to get"? Just free your mind and enjoy it.
BTW: I'd love to hear a live version of this majestic song with a full orchestra.
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I quote, the highest rated comment on songmeanings.com
"Here is my opinion, for one: the song has no mention whatsoever of drowning, the lyric is "the waters edge is where she waits", how does one drown on the edge of a body of water? then "the other side is where he waits, his spirit reaching out". If you pay close attention the imagery is of two people on opposite sides of a river, or at least some kind of body of water. A very common piece of Christian imagery/symbolism is crossing the Jordan River(or any river) as symbolizing death. And one very key idea to interpreting this song is its name "The Ministry of Lost Souls". "She" in this song represents mankind, "He" represents Jesus Christ, reaching out, drawing people in, offering them hope, telling them "don't turn your back on paradise". The idea is that we reject His loving hand far too often and turn away from Him, or maybe we are afraid. The song is symbolic for the human condition from a Christian worldview. It may seem biased considering that I am a Christian myself, but 3 members of DT are bold, practicing Christians, I don't think its going too far to say that they would write a beautiful, symbolic song about the Christian faith."
https://songmeanings.com/songs/view/3530822107858663384/ (https://songmeanings.com/songs/view/3530822107858663384/)
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"Here is my opinion, for one: the song has no mention whatsoever of drowning, the lyric is "the waters edge is where she waits", how does one drown on the edge of a body of water? then "the other side is where he waits, his spirit reaching out". If you pay close attention the imagery is of two people on opposite sides of a river, or at least some kind of body of water. A very common piece of Christian imagery/symbolism is crossing the Jordan River(or any river) as symbolizing death. And one very key idea to interpreting this song is its name "The Ministry of Lost Souls". "She" in this song represents mankind, "He" represents Jesus Christ, reaching out, drawing people in, offering them hope, telling them "don't turn your back on paradise". The idea is that we reject His loving hand far too often and turn away from Him, or maybe we are afraid. The song is symbolic for the human condition from a Christian worldview. It may seem biased considering that I am a Christian myself, but 3 members of DT are bold, practicing Christians, I don't think its going too far to say that they would write a beautiful, symbolic song about the Christian faith."
Honestly I like that idea more than the original...seems to make more sense. Although I haven't listened to this song in a while.
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I quote, the highest rated comment on songmeanings.com
"Here is my opinion, for one: the song has no mention whatsoever of drowning, the lyric is "the waters edge is where she waits", how does one drown on the edge of a body of water? then "the other side is where he waits, his spirit reaching out". If you pay close attention the imagery is of two people on opposite sides of a river, or at least some kind of body of water. A very common piece of Christian imagery/symbolism is crossing the Jordan River(or any river) as symbolizing death. And one very key idea to interpreting this song is its name "The Ministry of Lost Souls". "She" in this song represents mankind, "He" represents Jesus Christ, reaching out, drawing people in, offering them hope, telling them "don't turn your back on paradise". The idea is that we reject His loving hand far too often and turn away from Him, or maybe we are afraid. The song is symbolic for the human condition from a Christian worldview. It may seem biased considering that I am a Christian myself, but 3 members of DT are bold, practicing Christians, I don't think its going too far to say that they would write a beautiful, symbolic song about the Christian faith."
https://songmeanings.com/songs/view/3530822107858663384/ (https://songmeanings.com/songs/view/3530822107858663384/)
That's not it.
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Watch the Chaos in Progress DVD. Quoting directly from JP:
"It's about somebody who was saved by somebody else when they were drowning. But that person died in the process, and now the other person that lived lives his life of, you know, they can't live with themselves, they have all this regret, they have all this sorrow. They want to go to the other side to meet the other person, the other person ends up eventually pulling them through"
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*when I say the word "you", I'm referring to the commenter, not r3d86.
Here is my opinion, for one: the song has no mention whatsoever of drowning, the lyric is "the waters edge is where she waits", how does one drown on the edge of a body of water?
They're reminiscing on where they almost drowned... that seemed pretty obvious
then "the other side is where he waits, his spirit reaching out". If you pay close attention the imagery is of two people on opposite sides of a river, or at least some kind of body of water. A very common piece of Christian imagery/symbolism is crossing the Jordan River(or any river) as symbolizing death.
Well according to JP's quotes, the person saving the drowning person ended up dying in the process. This could use Christian imagery, but it isn't as definitive as you're making it out to be. It could easily be used to convey the story at hand.
And one very key idea to interpreting this song is its name "The Ministry of Lost Souls". "She" in this song represents mankind, "He" represents Jesus Christ, reaching out, drawing people in, offering them hope, telling them "don't turn your back on paradise".
Again, imagery of death =/= evidence to prove your theory. Also, here's a tip, if you actively have to use the wrong pronoun to "represent" what you're talking about, you may have to think it over a little more.
The idea is that we reject His loving hand far too often and turn away from Him, or maybe we are afraid. The song is symbolic for the human condition from a Christian worldview.
So basically, people have a different opinion than you. What a surprise. That's definitely worth writing a 15-minute epic about.
It may seem biased considering that I am a Christian myself, but 3 members of DT are bold, practicing Christians, I don't think its going too far to say that they would write a beautiful, symbolic song about the Christian faith.
https://songmeanings.com/songs/view/3530822107858663384/ (https://songmeanings.com/songs/view/3530822107858663384/)
Well, considering they let JLB write Blind Faith, I don't think it's all too likely that they'd make such a big deal out of not everyone sharing the same religion they do.
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...but 3 members of DT are bold, practicing Christians
That would be awesome if it were true, but it isn't. You (or the person who wrote that is) are mistaken.
...I don't think its going too far to say that they would write a beautiful, symbolic song about the Christian faith."
Except that that isn't what the song is about, since, as pointed out above, JP has already said what the song is about, and that ain't it.
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...but 3 members of DT are bold, practicing Christians
That would be awesome if it were true, but it isn't. You (or the person who wrote that is) are mistaken.
Labrie is allegedly Deist / Agnostic. Petrucci is Catholic isn't he ? I thought Myung was Christian. Rudess is Jewish and I thought Mangini was Christian too.
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Portnoy and Rudess are jewish, though neither are all that religious. Probably not secular jews either tho.
From what JLB has said, it seems like he believes in this mysterious sort of force in the universe. So a deist.
Myung I don't know about. JP is a roman catholic and probably the most serious christian in the band, but even then he's very moderate.
Mangini, no idea either.
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...but 3 members of DT are bold, practicing Christians
That would be awesome if it were true, but it isn't. You (or the person who wrote that is) are mistaken.
Labrie is allegedly Deist / Agnostic. Petrucci is Catholic isn't he ? I thought Myung was Christian. Rudess is Jewish and I thought Mangini was Christian too.
I'm not sure if any of that is enough to qualify any of them as "bold, practicing Christians".
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Portnoy and Rudess are jewish, though neither are all that religious. Probably not secular jews either tho.
From what JLB has said, it seems like he believes in this mysterious sort of force in the universe. So a deist.
Myung I don't know about. JP is a roman catholic and probably the most serious christian in the band, but even then he's very moderate.
Mangini, no idea either.
I thought it was well known about Myung. And in some interview back when Mangini first joined the band - he was asked who he would most like to meet and I think he said "Jesus" or something along those lines. It was a group interview just after he joined.
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...but 3 members of DT are bold, practicing Christians
That would be awesome if it were true, but it isn't. You (or the person who wrote that is) are mistaken.
Labrie is allegedly Deist / Agnostic. Petrucci is Catholic isn't he ? I thought Myung was Christian. Rudess is Jewish and I thought Mangini was Christian too.
I'm not sure if any of that is enough to qualify any of them as "bold, practicing Christians".
Exactly. And Mangini is not relevant to the discussion. We are talking about the band as it existed when TMOLS was written.
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Right. So at the time - probably two at best.
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Yes, DT has been known to use religious imagery in their earlier work, but they're never blatant about it. Never preachy. Even when they tackle the theme head on (in the name of god, blind faith, great debate), it's from a critical standpoint about religious followers, not about the religion or the act of being religious itself. But you'll also find stuff that is pretty clearly religious in tone (like Scarred or Voices).
I think all of DT are religious to some extent, as would be expected with people from USA really. But they're not preachy about it.
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I don't get the feeling that Scarred and Voices are awfully positive about the idea of religion either.
If you asked me to come up with all the songs DT has written that are pro-Christianity, the list would probably begin and end with I Walk Beside You, a song that probably has nothing much to do with Christianity itself but is just vague enough to seem like it might.
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Watch the Chaos in Progress DVD. Quoting directly from JP:
"It's about somebody who was saved by somebody else when they were drowning. But that person died in the process, and now the other person that lived lives his life of, you know, they can't live with themselves, they have all this regret, they have all this sorrow. They want to go to the other side to meet the other person, the other person ends up eventually pulling them through"
THANK YOU for an actual response to my question.
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Watch the Chaos in Progress DVD. Quoting directly from JP:
"It's about somebody who was saved by somebody else when they were drowning. But that person died in the process, and now the other person that lived lives his life of, you know, they can't live with themselves, they have all this regret, they have all this sorrow. They want to go to the other side to meet the other person, the other person ends up eventually pulling them through"
THANK YOU for an actual response to my question.
Why are you so surprised? The first reply in this thread was a direct answer, & it was mostly correct (excluding that the rescuer died).
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There were things missing from the link that were in the post I quoted, such as the part about, "the woman being pulled into the other side." That's kind of a huge part of the song, no?
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There were things missing from the link that were in the post I quoted, such as the part about, "the woman being pulled into the other side." That's kind of a huge part of the song, no?
"Huge part of the song"
Subtly mentioned in two lines
No.
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Portnoy and Rudess are jewish, though neither are all that religious. Probably not secular jews either tho.
From what JLB has said, it seems like he believes in this mysterious sort of force in the universe. So a deist.
Myung I don't know about. JP is a roman catholic and probably the most serious christian in the band, but even then he's very moderate.
Mangini, no idea either.
I thought it was well known about Myung. And in some interview back when Mangini first joined the band - he was asked who he would most like to meet and I think he said "Jesus" or something along those lines. It was a group interview just after he joined.
I remember reading in Lifting Shadows that when Mangini auditioned for DT, he went to church and prayed every day to get the gig. Along with the beforementioned remark, that instantly makes him look like the most religious member of the band.
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There were things missing from the link that were in the post I quoted, such as the part about, "the woman being pulled into the other side." That's kind of a huge part of the song, no?
"Huge part of the song"
Subtly mentioned in two lines
No.
To me it is, if it isn't to you....ok?
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I thought it was well known about Myung.
It is well assumed about Myung. He was asked once in an interview (YEARS ago) what person has had the most influence on his life, and he answered "Jesus." So I guess it is a safe assumption, but an assumption nonetheless. And it certainly doesn't mark him as a "bold, practicing Christian."
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I didn't say that.
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Yes, I know, dear heart.
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:metal
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Just wanted to say, you don't have to be a christian to want to meet Jesus! Being inspired by Jesus doesn't automatically imply one is a christian does it? Just sayin', it's maybe a bit of jump to make.
Also that interpretation of the song... Seems fun, but just goes to show how personal music is and how we all experience and project our own interpretations and derive different meaning from music. Either that, or DT have been the most ninja christian musicians to ever exist. :justjen
Although more on topic, I don't really 'get' this song either. I find some of JPs descriptions a bit cut and dried and almost takes away from the more poetic nature of the lyrics. But, it's directly from the man himself and reveals a bit more about his inspiration. I do kinda wish he wouldn't tell us the meaning so directly on some songs eg. Forsaken, Ministry, Lost not Forgotten, probably Wither would seem more mysterious.
Play it more like Metropolis, Voices, Glass Moon. Those have all remained fairly ambiguous.
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The actual Mangini Quote was: One dramatic historical event that I would have liked to witness was Jesus walking on water to the boat full of apostles. That ranks high on my list of "jaw-dropping" events.
Q: Noting your current album is called "A Dramatic Turn Of Events", what dramatic historical event would you like to have witnessed?
Again, not anything to do w MOLS, and no judgements here, but I think that's a pretty dead on answer for someone who believes.
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The actual Mangini Quote was: One dramatic historical event that I would have liked to witness was Jesus walking on water to the boat full of apostles. That ranks high on my list of "jaw-dropping" events.
Q: Noting your current album is called "A Dramatic Turn Of Events", what dramatic historical event would you like to have witnessed?
Again, not anything to do w MOLS, and no judgements here, but I think that's a pretty dead on answer for someone who believes.
Yeah, based on the wording he seems to be confident that it happened, like he believes it as fact. Combined with him saying in an interview that he puts God first, I would have a hard time thinking he does not believe. Obviously as you said that doesn't have anything to do with TMOLS as it was written before he was there, but I find it interesting regardless.
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In the drummer audition section of the book Lifting Shadow there's actually a part where Mangini says he went to the church almost everyday while waiting for DT to call after the audition... definitely a practising Christian I would say, not that it would change anything about TMOLS, I know.
It doesn't matter if every DT member is religious or not, IMHO what matters is that they tend to express their views and experiences through music and lyrics in such a general, universal way that everyone can add their own interpretation, no matter the actual meaning of them. I find this to be a pretty big part of their style, actually.
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I quote, the highest rated comment on songmeanings.com
"Here is my opinion, for one: the song has no mention whatsoever of drowning, the lyric is "the waters edge is where she waits", how does one drown on the edge of a body of water? then "the other side is where he waits, his spirit reaching out". If you pay close attention the imagery is of two people on opposite sides of a river, or at least some kind of body of water. A very common piece of Christian imagery/symbolism is crossing the Jordan River(or any river) as symbolizing death. And one very key idea to interpreting this song is its name "The Ministry of Lost Souls". "She" in this song represents mankind, "He" represents Jesus Christ, reaching out, drawing people in, offering them hope, telling them "don't turn your back on paradise". The idea is that we reject His loving hand far too often and turn away from Him, or maybe we are afraid. The song is symbolic for the human condition from a Christian worldview. It may seem biased considering that I am a Christian myself, but 3 members of DT are bold, practicing Christians, I don't think its going too far to say that they would write a beautiful, symbolic song about the Christian faith."
https://songmeanings.com/songs/view/3530822107858663384/ (https://songmeanings.com/songs/view/3530822107858663384/)
I like this interpretation, as this is the imagery that I get whenever I hear this song. I'm sure there are others that disagree, but it is my interpretation and it has much meaning to me.
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And I choose that it's a song about star wars - the spirit is a dead Jedi that lives in the force.