DreamTheaterForums.org Dream Theater Fan Site
Dream Theater => Dream Theater => Topic started by: npiazza91 on August 25, 2015, 07:53:27 PM
-
I'm not just saying this because it's so great, it's something about the way it's structured. The 5 minutes of intro goes by in about two seconds, then the "medicate me" part goes fast, then the "as far as I could tell" section also goes fast. Next thing you know the instrumental section is over, and the "Dave Mustaine" section is on, then it only has a few minutes left which goes by in a blink.
No other song past 10 minutes feels as short as this one. I always feel like I started the song 5 minutes ago, then I look and it's at 19 minutes. Power to DT for writing a song as well structured as this one. It is simply amazing.
Does anyone else feel like Octavarium is much shorter than 24 minutes?
-
I feel the same towards Six Degrees, and I think it happens because each section introduces new ideas, and great ones - like a collection of short songs that flow through each other while keeping a common sound and theme, with some reprises here and there.
-
I feel the same towards Six Degrees, and I think it happens because each section introduces new ideas, and great ones - like a collection of short songs that flow through each other while keeping a common sound and theme, with some reprises here and there.
For me personally, I always thought of Six Degrees (the song) as an album. I think it's because I was introduced to the different "sections" as individual songs. I never got the "only one long song" vibe from it. It also might be the fact that it's separated into multiple tracks.
Although, I do think that Overture, About to Crash, About to Crash (Reprise) and Losing Time/Grand Finale feels like one song if listened to straight.
-
Does anyone else feel like Octavarium is much shorter than 24 minutes?
Yes, big time.
I think because it's just a well crafted, thoughtful and well done piece of work. Every section has it's place and purpose and the song just holds your interest from start to finish.
-
Does anyone else feel like Octavarium is much shorter than 24 minutes?
Yes, big time.
I think because it's just a well crafted, thoughtful and well done piece of work. Every section has it's place and purpose and the song just holds your interest from start to finish.
In other words, it doesn't drag.
I have to admit, the first time I heard ACOS, I thought it kinda dragged.
-
Personally, ACOS grew on me a lot since I first heard it. I loved Octavarium from listen #1.
-
I don't think ACOS drags, but 8VM flows much better and does feel shorter.
I think with 8VM is there isn't as much going on as say ACOS I think. The sections are more free flowing with a lot of light and shade between each part. The whole thing gaining momentum from a quiet start all the way up to the climax is just good songwriting too. ACOS starts heavy and goes back and forth between a heavy and quiet section, 8VM builds keeping your interest the whole time.
-
I don't know if it's just because it's an amazing song, or because of the structure of it, with longer sections with not a lot of walls of notes, very atmospheric and melodic.
For such a long song, it doesn't have that many sections, and each one is so beautiful that it doesn't really drag to the next. ACOS probably feels longer simply because it has a lot more changes/sections.
I feel the same towards Six Degrees...
Me too. It always flies by effortlessly. Again, I'm not sure if that's just because it's so well written, or if it's the way it's structured with its sections.
-
Couldn't agree more, Blob. I feel like Six Degrees is much shorter than 42 minutes and Octavarium much less than 24 minutes. I'm convinced that's solely due to fantastic song writing. The songs (read: sections) are never dull.
-
I'm not just saying this because it's so great, it's something about the way it's structured. The 5 minutes of intro goes by in about two seconds, then the "medicate me" part goes fast, then the "as far as I could tell" section also goes fast. Next thing you know the instrumental section is over, and the "Dave Mustaine" section is on, then it only has a few minutes left which goes by in a blink.
No other song past 10 minutes feels as short as this one. I always feel like I started the song 5 minutes ago, then I look and it's at 19 minutes. Power to DT for writing a song as well structured as this one. It is simply amazing.
Does anyone else feel like Octavarium is much shorter than 24 minutes?
I think it has a lot to do with how well it's structured. Every section flows into each other perfectly and there's no jarring disjointed-ness anywhere in the song. Also, it keeps building momentum throughout the song much like The Spirit Carries On does but on a much grander scale. Musically, it feels like a story and really holds your interest as a listener. Those two factors I feel are the main reasons as to why it feels shorter than it actually is.
-
The only thing I could cut down is the intro. It does serve its purpose of creating an atmosphere, so I wouldn't really cut it down. But if forced to cut down a part, the intro can be shortened. The other parts are perfect as it is.
-
For the same reason why the working week lasts forever and holidays week flies by in a split second.
-
The only thing I could cut down is the intro. It does serve its purpose of creating an atmosphere, so I wouldn't really cut it down. But if forced to cut down a part, the intro can be shortened. The other parts are perfect as it is.
I only feel this way about the live version on Score. I'm always pleasantly surprised how short the intro feels when listening to the album version.
Yes, 8VM definitely feels shorter than 24 minutes and for me it's due to the constant build up. Always something to look forward to.
I must say, JR's moog section is brilliant! It's my favorite part and I'm usually disappointed when it's over.
-
For the same reason why the working week lasts forever and holidays week flies by in a split second.
-
For the same reason why the working week lasts forever and holidays week flies by in a split second.
Give this man a medal!
-
I have to admit, the first time I heard ACOS, I thought it kinda dragged.
It's because ACOS has no flow to it at all. Sections just start and end. I don't get the love for that song in the slightest.
-
I feel the same towards Six Degrees, and I think it happens because each section introduces new ideas, and great ones - like a collection of short songs that flow through each other while keeping a common sound and theme, with some reprises here and there.
This. Listening to SDOIT title track is effortless and fun. That's why it flies by so fast. IT on the other hand, 19 mins seems like an eternity.
I have to admit, the first time I heard ACOS, I thought it kinda dragged.
It's because ACOS has no flow to it at all. Sections just start and end. I don't get the love for that song in the slightest.
It's the quality of the sections that make ACOS really good. Not all good songs flow seamlessly from beginning to end.
-
I have no issues with the flow of ACOS, flows fine to me. Maybe not as good as 8VM flows, but I think it flows better than SDOIT, IMO that does not flow well at all and part of the reason why I dislike it amongst the other epics.
-
I have to admit, the first time I heard ACOS, I thought it kinda dragged.
It's because ACOS has no flow to it at all. Sections just start and end. I don't get the love for that song in the slightest.
Finally find the reason I prefer Octvarium over ACOS put into words.
SDOIT does have flow between paired songs:
Overture-ATC
WIMH-TTTSTA
GNK-SS
ATC(R)-LT/GF
-
Its shorter because I always fast forward through Full Circle.
-
I feel the same towards Six Degrees, and I think it happens because each section introduces new ideas, and great ones - like a collection of short songs that flow through each other while keeping a common sound and theme, with some reprises here and there.
This. Listening to SDOIT title track is effortless and fun. That's why it flies by so fast. IT on the other hand, 19 mins seems like an eternity.
I have to admit, the first time I heard ACOS, I thought it kinda dragged.
It's because ACOS has no flow to it at all. Sections just start and end. I don't get the love for that song in the slightest.
It's the quality of the sections that make ACOS really good. Not all good songs flow seamlessly from beginning to end.
Octavarium > > The Count Of Tuscany > > Illumination Theory > > > > > A Change Of Seasons.
-
Funny that, because ACOS is the song that always feels shorter to me. When I listen to it (and it is an absolute masterpiece), I forget that 23 minutes of real time have passed. The intro to Octavarium drags on a little bit too long for me. I don't mind a minute or so of that, but it doesn't really need 4. That was done already with Shine On You Crazy Diamond.
-
So for now on, my wife will call sex, Octavarium.
-
So for now on, my wife will call sex, Octavarium.
Because she repeatedly screams that she's trapped inside it? ???
-
So for now on, my wife will call sex, Octavarium.
Because it's glorious, right?
-
No its because she has 8....um....never mind.
-
All wrong! It's so good that it goes by so fast. :eyebrows:
Well at least she hopes so
-
I'm just proud of you for correctly spelling Octavarium.
-
Funny, it's the easy words Hef that I miss.
My aptitude tests in high school for reading was at the 98 percentile. I absorb everything. My spelling skills was at 68%. Very poor.
My cousin's answer to this problem when we were teens. "You just need an editor in your life".
Blob has asked to take that on for a fee. :lol
-
To be fair, my fees are extremely reasonable.
-
1.21 gigawatts is not reasonable.
-
(https://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i238/hefdaddy42/funny/gigawatts.jpg)
-
Doc Brown.
-
It's shorter because I only listen to Full Circle.
FTFF
-
Its shorter because I always fast forward through Full Circle.
REPORTED.
-
It feels shorter when I skip the first 4.5 minutes or so.
-
I used to think that 24 minutes was very long for a song, but then I took a six degrees of inner turbulence to the face...
-
To me, it feels exactly as it should. It's my favorite song of all time, and when I listen to it, I give it my full undivided attention.
Songs really fly by when I'm doing something else while listening, such as surfing the net or playing video games or cleaning a room. Perhaps this contributes to some of us thinking that it feels shorter than it is.
-
Octavarium feels 0 seconds long, because I never listen to it. :-X
-
Octavarium > > The Count Of Tuscany > > Illumination Theory > > > > > A Change Of Seasons.
:umno:
REPORTED.
:biggrin:
-
Octavarium > > The Count Of Tuscany > > Illumination Theory > > > > > A Change Of Seasons.
:umno:
I don't see your ranking...
-
ACOS > > Octavarium > > The Count Of Tuscany > > > > > lightyears > > > > > Illumination Theory
-
At least Octavarium is second ;)
-
Lightyears? I don't know that... unless...
Omg... You... You're a time traveler and that's the next epic?
So it's worse than TCOT... Sad...
-
Octavarium > > The Count Of Tuscany > > Illumination Theory > > > > > A Change Of Seasons.
I'd switch Octavarium and TCoT, but yeah... ACoS is pretty average.. Nothing so great about that tune, besides its first two instrumentals and Another World..
-
You know people here on DTF can't ignore posting rankings for songs...
Octavarium > A Change of Seasons > Illumination Theory > The Count of Tuscany
-
Illumination Theory>ITPOE>........ACOS>8V>...............................TCOT
Is there a reason why you guys haven't been including ITPOE?
-
I was personally just following their lead, but if I did include ITPOE, it would be second to last.
-
I guess I'll post my ranking of the epics as well:
Octavarium>The Count of Tuscany>A Change of Seasons>Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence>Illumination Theory>In the Presence of Enemies
-
Forgot about six degrees.....
That would be my 2nd favourite.
-
Illumination Theory>ITPOE>........ACOS>8V>...............................TCOT
Is there a reason why you guys haven't been including ITPOE?
If you mean the second part, because it's only 16 minutes long.. And if I add it, then I should add ANtR too, and why not TMoLS, etc... I thought it's about songs between 19 and 24 minutes.. That's why 6DoIT is not included either.. I guess..
Edit: well, not anymore :lol, so I'll put my song ranking from 15 minutes onwards:
1- The Count of Tuscany
2- The Ministry of Lost Souls
3- Octavarium
4- A Nightmare to Remember
5- In the Presence of Enemies pt2
6- Illumination Theory
7- Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
8- A Change of Seasons
-
Personally, I think the fact that Octavarium flies by so quickly is one of the reasons I don't really enjoy it as much as other epics. The song builds itself up so much & hearing some of these sections, you could tell just how epic they were hoping the song to be. I'll admit, Someone Like Him gives me chills every time (even the needlessly extended opening to an extent), every time I get to the screaming in Intervals, I'm like "...holy shit... :omg:", & I don't think there can be a possibly be a more climatic & satisfying closer to a song than Razor's Edge (& if there is, I haven't heard it), but when you get down to it, that's just the opening & closing of the song. The actual meat of the production is only limited to two sections (i.e. Medicate & Full Circle), & these sections are really only decent, not just in comparison, but even if they were in another better epic, they'd probably be the weakest link of it & would weigh its new song down as a result. Medicate is an extremely light, calm section that (while I'd understand the appeal) doesn't really do much for me, while Full Circle feels like a wannabe/filler track based on other songs off the album. My point is, Octavaium doesn't really give itself enough room to flourish because it goes by so quickly, because it's leaving you in suspense for what's happening next so much that it doesn't really follow up on it a lot of the time.
Also, if I may join in on the ranking:
1. A Change Of Seasons
2. A Mind Beside Itself (it's one song damnit)
3. In The Presence Of Enemies
4. The Count Of Tuscany
5. Six Degrees Of Inner Turbulence
6. Octavarium
7. Illumination Theory
Also again, to the guy above me, TMoLS is 14:57, so :loser:
-
Also, to the guy above me: A Mind Beside Itself is not a song, but a suite consisting of three songs.. So :facepalm:
-
A Mind Beside Itself (it's one song damnit)
Nope.
-
A Mind Beside Itself (it's one song damnit)
Nope.
And nor is six degrees
-
Does anyone else feel like Octavarium is much shorter than 24 minutes?
The intro alone feels like 24 minutes to me. Especially the live version.
-
Because it eeeends wheeere iiiit begiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiins
-
Also, to the guy above me: A Mind Beside Itself is not a song, but a suite consisting of three songs.. So :facepalm:
Well if we're going to count ItPoE as one song even though it was technically broken up into two tracks, & Six Degrees even though it was split into eight tracks, I figured I might as well count A Mind Beside Itself even though it was broke up into three (since I rarely listen to the songs separately anyway).
-
Don't worry, I tried to convince people that it's a single entity when I first got here. :laugh:
But I think the way people see it is the separation of tracks is more-so apparent in this piece than any of the other examples making it a lot easier to identify with them individually. And the connection between the songs is not as obvious as say; the relationship between the 12SS songs and it's doubtful we'd try lump them all together as those tracks still stand on there own. Also, Six Degrees, ACOS, ITPOE, 8vm, TCOT etc. all have various excuses or reasons for why and how they slightly differ from each other, that we pretty much can't put any of them in the same category as another. ::)
What I want to know is what the concept was for A Mind Beside Itself during the writing process. At what stage did they decide to make it a suite of songs, and how early did they decide on the concept as far as relating some of the musical and lyrical themes? Because if we knew more about how these songs were written then the data might be more compelling than our general fan consensus. But really at the end of the day, it doesn't matter how we define the music, the music will always speak for itself without any of that anyway. Plus, it really just comes down to presentation preferences of the artist and is more about that than categorisation and definitions.
-
Also, to the guy above me: A Mind Beside Itself is not a song, but a suite consisting of three songs.. So :facepalm:
Well if we're going to count ItPoE as one song even though it was technically broken up into two tracks, & Six Degrees even though it was split into eight tracks, I figured I might as well count A Mind Beside Itself even though it was broke up into three (since I rarely listen to the songs separately anyway).
In fact, you're talking to the guy who debated against a bunch of stubborn people :lol who dared to refuse the idea of considering ItPoE as two songs, as they really are.. (See that long but rich discussion in this (https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=43985.35) thread..)
The thing is this: ItPoE are two separate tracks, each one with parts in it (I&II, and III-VI respectively), which I personally consider two songs too.. (One song with six songs between? Nope, that still doesn't make any sense) SDoIT is one song, with eight parts, which are also eight tracks, only for CD's format conveniences.. And (again), AMBI is a suite, not a song.. It's a suite, just like the 12SS, or the Metallica's Unforgivens..
-
Also, to the guy above me: A Mind Beside Itself is not a song, but a suite consisting of three songs.. So :facepalm:
Well if we're going to count ItPoE as one song even though it was technically broken up into two tracks, & Six Degrees even though it was split into eight tracks, I figured I might as well count A Mind Beside Itself even though it was broke up into three (since I rarely listen to the songs separately anyway).
In fact, you're talking to the guy who debated against a bunch of stubborn people :lol who dared to refuse the idea of considering ItPoE as two songs, as they really are.. (See that long but rich discussion in this (https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=43985.35) thread..)
The thing is this: ItPoE are two separate tracks, each one with parts in it (I&II, and III-VI respectively), which I personally consider two songs too.. (One song with six songs between? Nope, that still doesn't make any sense) SDoIT is one song, with eight parts, which are also eight tracks, only for CD's format conveniences.. And (again), AMBI is a suite, not a song.. It's a suite, just like the 12SS, or the Metallica's Unforgivens..
Generally how I look at it is that if a song is broken up into noted parts & all those parts appear on the same album, I consider it one song. Often the tracks benefit greatly when I play them together, so I'm going to be playing them together whenever I listen to it anyway.
Also, how do we know AMBI wasn't split up for CD conveniences? After all, combined, it was DT's longest song at the time (not counting ACoS demos, which the label initially refused to release due to length anyway), & considering TSM was released as the lead single from Awake, it could be entirely possible that they wanted listeners to be able to get to (what they hoped would be) the big single they heard on the radio right away. For all we know, that could be the only reason they split it up, which would make it no different than Six Degrees in that regard.
As you said in that thread though, it's subjective, so eh... :-\
-
Also, to the guy above me: A Mind Beside Itself is not a song, but a suite consisting of three songs.. So :facepalm:
Well if we're going to count ItPoE as one song even though it was technically broken up into two tracks, & Six Degrees even though it was split into eight tracks, I figured I might as well count A Mind Beside Itself even though it was broke up into three (since I rarely listen to the songs separately anyway).
In fact, you're talking to the guy who debated against a bunch of stubborn people :lol who dared to refuse the idea of considering ItPoE as two songs, as they really are.. (See that long but rich discussion in this (https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=43985.35) thread..)
If you still haven't accepted that ITPOE is in fact one song based on every single person on DTF disagreeing with you, then maybe it's you who's stubborn. ;)
-
I don't except it either. Maybe because I never played them back to back. I know, weird for a DT geek like myself but I never did!
-
Also, to the guy above me: A Mind Beside Itself is not a song, but a suite consisting of three songs.. So :facepalm:
Well if we're going to count ItPoE as one song even though it was technically broken up into two tracks, & Six Degrees even though it was split into eight tracks, I figured I might as well count A Mind Beside Itself even though it was broke up into three (since I rarely listen to the songs separately anyway).
In fact, you're talking to the guy who debated against a bunch of stubborn people :lol who dared to refuse the idea of considering ItPoE as two songs, as they really are.. (See that long but rich discussion in this (https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=43985.35) thread..)
If you still haven't accepted that ITPOE is in fact one song based on every single person on DTF disagreeing with you, then maybe it's you who's stubborn. ;)
This. We can argue all kinds of things, but ITPOE is one song.
-
If you still haven't accepted that ITPOE is in fact one song based on every single person on DTF disagreeing with you, then maybe it's you who's stubborn. ;)
This. We can argue all kinds of things, but ITPOE is one song.
Cool, now can we get back on topic plz?
-
Aside from the continuum intro, each of the sections seamlessly flow into one another (still love the intro). Not to mention one of petrucci's best guitar solos in razor's edge! That solo alone inspired me to get the metronome out and practice studiously.