DreamTheaterForums.org Dream Theater Fan Site
Dream Theater => Dream Theater => Topic started by: DarkLord_Lalinc on August 19, 2015, 06:37:12 PM
-
I don't mean to make a flame war, but I'm curious about what people think. As far as my opinion goes, I think that Chycki has been more of a 'miss' than a 'hit' with DT.
-
Yes.
-
Yes.
This.
-
Given how they're going with him again, one can assume they feel he gave them the product they wanted. So, whatever you might feel about DT12, is more about DT than Chycki.
-
The only minus for me so far is the Dream Theater album snare sound. And we are not even sure if it's him or it's more of JP's vision as a producer. That goes with the compression and loudness issue as well, because interviews seem to indicate that that is what JP, as a producer, wanted.
One plus thing that has been clearly attributed to him by the band is JM's up-front bass sound.
-
Less of an asset vs. Kevin Shirley/Oberkircher, more of one than Paul Northfield.
-
DT mixing, production, etc., have always been below average in my opinion, but the last two albums are two of the worst since WDADU for me. So, there's my opinion. Not gonna throw blame around on a specific person, though.
-
I'm still a bit mixed based on what we've got so far. DT12 was one of DT's lesser sounding albums even on HDTracks, LALP was ok, but the Christmas release was solid, and BTFW sounded really good. And DT have said they were aware of the feedback from DT12 and wanted a different sound this time.
So I guess I'll let DT13 be the decider!
-
I'm good with it
-
Agree. How they're not going with Terry Date is beyond me.
-
Eh, I'd tend to say no, but I think DT13 will definitely be the deciding factor for me.
-
Given how they're going with him again, one can assume they feel he gave them the product they wanted. So, whatever you might feel about DT12, is more about DT than Chycki.
Exactly. JP himself said they were going fore a certain sound. They are the true producers that want a certain sound.
-
I thought BTFW sounded awful. But that's just me.
-
I'm still a bit mixed based on what we've got so far. DT12 was one of DT's lesser sounding albums even on HDTracks, LALP was ok, but the Christmas release was solid, and BTFW sounded really good. And DT have said they were aware of the feedback from DT12 and wanted a different sound this time.
So I guess I'll let DT13 be the decider!
ADTOE was mixed by Andy Wallace. And I don't think Chycki mastered it either. What do you mean by lesser sounding albums as far as ADTOE? My gripe on this album are two things, mainly sonic issues:
-The drums sound very buried. Didn't MM record this on his home studio?
-JP's guitar sounds like there was a bedsheet over the amps...the songs kick ass live but the guitar in the studio versions sounds thin and whimpy
-
I'm still a bit mixed based on what we've got so far. DT12 was one of DT's lesser sounding albums even on HDTracks, LALP was ok, but the Christmas release was solid, and BTFW sounded really good. And DT have said they were aware of the feedback from DT12 and wanted a different sound this time.
So I guess I'll let DT13 be the decider!
ADTOE was mixed by Andy Wallace. And I don't think Chycki mastered it either. What do you mean by lesser sounding albums as far as ADTOE? My gripe on this album are two things, mainly sonic issues:
-The drums sound very buried. Didn't MM record this on his home studio?
-JP's guitar sounds like there was a bedsheet over the amps...the songs kick ass live but the guitar in the studio versions sounds thin and whimpy
I didn't mention ADTOE since Chycki wasn't involved, but I'd consider that DT's worst sounding album sonically since WDADU, basically for the same reasons as you. The drums sound raw and have no punch, the guitars are overwhelming and muddy, and the whole mix is just generally off.
-
I'm still a bit mixed based on what we've got so far. DT12 was one of DT's lesser sounding albums even on HDTracks, LALP was ok, but the Christmas release was solid, and BTFW sounded really good. And DT have said they were aware of the feedback from DT12 and wanted a different sound this time.
So I guess I'll let DT13 be the decider!
ADTOE was mixed by Andy Wallace. And I don't think Chycki mastered it either. What do you mean by lesser sounding albums as far as ADTOE? My gripe on this album are two things, mainly sonic issues:
-The drums sound very buried. Didn't MM record this on his home studio?
-JP's guitar sounds like there was a bedsheet over the amps...the songs kick ass live but the guitar in the studio versions sounds thin and whimpy
I didn't mention ADTOE since Chycki wasn't involved, but I'd consider that DT's worst sounding album sonically since WDADU, basically for the same reasons as you. The drums sound raw and have no punch, the guitars are overwhelming and muddy, and the whole mix is just generally off.
I'm still wondering what happened on that one. I hope this is DT's Vapor Trails and will get a retreatment sometime in the future (although I doubt it will happen since I haven't seen the backlash on the sound on this one outside the main DT forums). But reading Wallace's mixing credits, I still have to wonder, what happened? Why was this botched?
On DT12, I understand the snare experiment and DT has come forward and recognize they won't be doing again..But on ADTOE? I don't I recall reading or seeing anyone from DT coming out forward and addressing the sonic issues on ADTOE.
-
I really liked the sound of the S/T... :-\
Events was muddy and lacked the punch that I like.
-
Less of an asset vs. Kevin Shirley/Oberkircher, more of one than Paul Northfield.
I'm still a bit mixed based on what we've got so far. DT12 was one of DT's lesser sounding albums even on HDTracks, LALP was ok, but the Christmas release was solid, and BTFW sounded really good. And DT have said they were aware of the feedback from DT12 and wanted a different sound this time.
So I guess I'll let DT13 be the decider!
Both of these.
-
Two albums full of excellent compositions and thousands of hours of combined effort that are very rarely listened to solely due to sound
quality. It's such a bummer for me and IMO such a missed opportunity. BUT...according to posts here, the band recognizes this issue
and has vowed to fix it on the next album. So I'm looking forward to see what they do.
-
IMHO Paul Northfield got JP a really great, biting and grinding guitar tone. It's been a bit muddy since he left.
I met him in a pub once, before the Wembley 2007 show. :-)
-
Now thinking about it, I'm actually kinda surprised DT hasn't revisited Kevin Shirley since MP has been gone. It seemed like KS and MP were the ones to at times but heads a little, so with MP not in DT anymore it would probably be more feasible to see KS behind the board again. Every instrument just sounded so good with KS...
-
Now thinking about it, I'm actually kinda surprised DT hasn't revisited Kevin Shirley since MP has been gone. It seemed like KS and MP were the ones to at times but heads a little, so with MP not in DT anymore it would probably be more feasible to see KS behind the board again. Every instrument just sounded so good with KS...
I haven't heard anything about MP and KS having issues (I recall one story about JP making KS spend a night raising the guitars on SDOIT then making him put it back, but even that story seems to have been told with humour).
Given they used Shirley for multiple albums when they had full creative control, I'd say they were all quite happy to use him given the results. I wonder if it's more of a logistical thing. I would absolutely love for Kevin Shirley to be involved in making another DT album.
-
+1 for Shirley if he is available to work with DT again in the future.
-
Huh, not sure why I thought MP and KS didn't get along...No clue, maybe I was grouping him in with Prater. :lol
-
I would love to hear a DT album mixed by whomever mixes Neal Morse's albums....if it's Neal or whoever. I think all his albums sound very good and don't highlight one particular instrument yet they don't overlook any either...none are lost to the listener and everything compliments each other.
-
It strikes me how bands with fewer resources like Haken can put out albums as good sounding as 'The Mountain' while DT's latest mixes have received mixed reception. Don't get me wrong, I love the music in the last two albums but their production leave a lot to be desired.
I also believe that their next album is definitive in terms of what is expected of them at this point.
-
Here is about the only place I know where Shirley is highly regarded........he seems to be considered the kiss of death these days in AOR/hard rock circles when it comes to the sound of an album. I have no strong opinion on him but that's the impression I get from others.
-
Here is about the only place I know where Shirley is highly regarded........he seems to be considered the kiss of death these days in AOR/hard rock circles when it comes to the sound of an album. I have no strong opinion on him but that's the impression I get from others.
First I've heard of this. Given the low standard on modern hard rock / AOR albums, I can't possibly see how Shirley could have a bad reputation, given that all albums I've heard from him have sounded quite good.
-
Here is about the only place I know where Shirley is highly regarded........he seems to be considered the kiss of death these days in AOR/hard rock circles when it comes to the sound of an album. I have no strong opinion on him but that's the impression I get from others.
First I've heard of this. Given the low standard on modern hard rock / AOR albums, I can't possibly see how Shirley could have a bad reputation, given that all albums I've heard from him have sounded quite good.
Dance of Death by Iron Maiden is not very popular sound wise, which I agree. Easily his worst work with them. Meanwhile he also did my favorite work with them on Brave New World.
But I think it's still important to note was has been said about Chycki, these guys are hired by the band and therefore the band has strong input on how the album should sound so its unclear how exactly each of these guys own sound ideas contributed to each album.
-
Here is about the only place I know where Shirley is highly regarded........he seems to be considered the kiss of death these days in AOR/hard rock circles when it comes to the sound of an album. I have no strong opinion on him but that's the impression I get from others.
Huh, I've never heard that either. All I know is that, historically, KS + DT = Great sounding records. So I'm going solely off that.
-
I would love to hear a DT album mixed by whomever mixes Neal Morse's albums....if it's Neal or whoever. I think all his albums sound very good and don't highlight one particular instrument yet they don't overlook any either...none are lost to the listener and everything compliments each other.
Rich Mouser has great sounding mixes. Would love for The Mouse to mix some DT stuff.
Jens Borgren did the latest Symphony X (Iconoclast and Paradise Lost), he has mixed some Opeth, he did the last two JLB albums which sound amazing, and he also did Haken's The Mountain which sounds very good as well.
Would love either of those two to mix a DT album.
-
I would love to hear a DT album mixed by whomever mixes Neal Morse's albums....if it's Neal or whoever. I think all his albums sound very good and don't highlight one particular instrument yet they don't overlook any either...none are lost to the listener and everything compliments each other.
Rich Mouser has great sounding mixes. Would love for The Mouse to mix some DT stuff.
Jens Borgren did the latest Symphony X (Iconoclast and Paradise Lost), he has mixed some Opeth, he did the last two JLB albums which sound amazing, and he also did Haken's The Mountain which sounds very good as well.
Would love either of those two to mix a DT album.
+1 for Jens. The new Symphony X in particular sounds great to my ears.
-
I would love to hear a DT album mixed by whomever mixes Neal Morse's albums....if it's Neal or whoever. I think all his albums sound very good and don't highlight one particular instrument yet they don't overlook any either...none are lost to the listener and everything compliments each other.
Rich Mouser has great sounding mixes. Would love for The Mouse to mix some DT stuff.
Jens Borgren did the latest Symphony X (Iconoclast and Paradise Lost), he has mixed some Opeth, he did the last two JLB albums which sound amazing, and he also did Haken's The Mountain which sounds very good as well.
Would love either of those two to mix a DT album.
+1 for Jens. The new Symphony X in particular sounds great to my ears.
Yep....everything you listed sounds awesome! While I don't get annoyed by the mix/sound that DT puts out as much as some folks in these parts....I do think it's evident even to a less than novice person like me that DT could stand to benefit from two things....an outside producer and an impartial sound engineer to mix.
-
I would love to hear a DT album mixed by whomever mixes Neal Morse's albums....if it's Neal or whoever. I think all his albums sound very good and don't highlight one particular instrument yet they don't overlook any either...none are lost to the listener and everything compliments each other.
Rich Mouser has great sounding mixes. Would love for The Mouse to mix some DT stuff.
Jens Borgren did the latest Symphony X (Iconoclast and Paradise Lost), he has mixed some Opeth, he did the last two JLB albums which sound amazing, and he also did Haken's The Mountain which sounds very good as well.
Would love either of those two to mix a DT album.
+1 for Jens. The new Symphony X in particular sounds great to my ears.
Underworld is, unfortunately, the most dynamically compressed album from Symphony X to date :(
-
No, until I hear DT13. BTFW was a step in the right direction though.
-
I would love to hear a DT album mixed by whomever mixes Neal Morse's albums....if it's Neal or whoever. I think all his albums sound very good and don't highlight one particular instrument yet they don't overlook any either...none are lost to the listener and everything compliments each other.
Rich Mouser has great sounding mixes. Would love for The Mouse to mix some DT stuff.
Jens Borgren did the latest Symphony X (Iconoclast and Paradise Lost), he has mixed some Opeth, he did the last two JLB albums which sound amazing, and he also did Haken's The Mountain which sounds very good as well.
Would love either of those two to mix a DT album.
+1 for Jens. The new Symphony X in particular sounds great to my ears.
Underworld is, unfortunately, the most dynamically compressed album from Symphony X to date :(
That may be true (I'm actually not terribly familiar with their catalog) but it certainly passed the ear test to me, especially in comparison to some recent DT + Chycki work.
-
Chycki actually recorded the vocals for ADTOE in the Toronto area. James told JP that since they are trying things a new way, he didn't want to record his vocals in NY and he didn't want to be messed with. JP gave the ok and Jame went ahead. I think maybe 5 or 6 tracks were recorded without JP but then he wanted to be present for the remaining tracks so he flew up to Canada so it was just him, James, and Richard in the studio.
That began the relationship with Chycki and DT(other than James was in Winter Rose with him)
-
They're happy, I'm happy.
-
No, until I hear DT13. BTFW was a step in the right direction though.
Basically this. The mix on LALP was very mediocre at best, but did he actually mix that? For some reason I thought some of the guys from Over The Edge also mixed the DVD. Whatever. The Holiday Release was pretty good, but DT12 was, in my opinion, a perfect example of the loudness war's worst victims; you can hear all the instruments, but that's basically it. Even the HDTracks sound very bad IMO. BTFW was pretty decent, so I'm hoping DT13 will be better.
-
I'm still a bit mixed based on what we've got so far. DT12 was one of DT's lesser sounding albums even on HDTracks, LALP was ok, but the Christmas release was solid, and BTFW sounded really good. And DT have said they were aware of the feedback from DT12 and wanted a different sound this time.
So I guess I'll let DT13 be the decider!
ADTOE was mixed by Andy Wallace. And I don't think Chycki mastered it either. What do you mean by lesser sounding albums as far as ADTOE? My gripe on this album are two things, mainly sonic issues:
-The drums sound very buried. Didn't MM record this on his home studio?
-JP's guitar sounds like there was a bedsheet over the amps...the songs kick ass live but the guitar in the studio versions sounds thin and whimpy
I didn't mention ADTOE since Chycki wasn't involved, but I'd consider that DT's worst sounding album sonically since WDADU, basically for the same reasons as you. The drums sound raw and have no punch, the guitars are overwhelming and muddy, and the whole mix is just generally off.
I'm still wondering what happened on that one. I hope this is DT's Vapor Trails and will get a retreatment sometime in the future (although I doubt it will happen since I haven't seen the backlash on the sound on this one outside the main DT forums). But reading Wallace's mixing credits, I still have to wonder, what happened? Why was this botched?
On DT12, I understand the snare experiment and DT has come forward and recognize they won't be doing again..But on ADTOE? I don't I recall reading or seeing anyone from DT coming out forward and addressing the sonic issues on ADTOE.
Is there a source online regarding DT commenting on the snare experiment? I'm really curious to see it.
-
Chycki actually recorded the vocals for ADTOE in the Toronto area. James told JP that since they are trying things a new way, he didn't want to record his vocals in NY and he didn't want to be messed with. JP gave the ok and Jame went ahead. I think maybe 5 or 6 tracks were recorded without JP but then he wanted to be present for the remaining tracks so he flew up to Canada so it was just him, James, and Richard in the studio.
That began the relationship with Chycki and DT(other than James was in Winter Rose with him)
I hadn't heard that story before, but that is very telling if you ask me. While I can only go by the various interviews, it seemed that one of JLB's big beefs with MP was that he would tell JLB what/how to sing the various parts. So this basically says that JP gave JLB the opportunity to do it his way, and it sounds like JP promptly took it back (and in my opinion, with good reason, though I can't really be too unequivocal about that without knowing what songs were in what bunch).
-
Yeah, as far as I know they never said what songs JP decided to take control of. They might have mentioned one or to but I can't remember. But if JLB and Chycki did over half the album by themselves without being change, I guess something went right. Also, perhaps this gave JP a signal to back off while recording vocals and choose wisely where he should interject.
-
No, until I hear DT13. BTFW was a step in the right direction though.
Basically this. The mix on LALP was very mediocre at best, but did he actually mix that? For some reason I thought some of the guys from Over The Edge also mixed the DVD. Whatever. The Holiday Release was pretty good, but DT12 was, in my opinion, a perfect example of the loudness war's worst victims; you can hear all the instruments, but that's basically it. Even the HDTracks sound very bad IMO. BTFW was pretty decent, so I'm hoping DT13 will be better.
Yeah, he mixed LALP. There are some songs that sound fine like Surrounded but the acoustic set is cringe-worthy. Such a shame considering the performance of those two songs was superb. JLB is compressed to infinity and such compression makes some weird microphone nuances come to the surface. Also, the string quartet couldn't have played and the recordings would have sounded the same. They're so low I even tend to forget they invited some guys to play strings during those songs.
-
Absolutely. I bought the CD/DVD set back then but I sold it about a year ago. The CDs just sound horribly and the DVDs aren't much better. I agree with you that some songs sound ok, but overall I didn't like it at all.
-
Yeah, as far as I know they never said what songs JP decided to take control of. They might have mentioned one or to but I can't remember. But if JLB and Chycki did over half the album by themselves without being change, I guess something went right. Also, perhaps this gave JP a signal to back off while recording vocals and choose wisely where he should interject.
Do we know that JP didn't go back and suggest changes to the ones before he got involved? Personally, I've long said (since before MP left, even) that some people may not like the "oversight" but it makes them better. I feel JLB is like that.
-
Yeah, as far as I know they never said what songs JP decided to take control of. They might have mentioned one or to but I can't remember. But if JLB and Chycki did over half the album by themselves without being change, I guess something went right. Also, perhaps this gave JP a signal to back off while recording vocals and choose wisely where he should interject.
Do we know that JP didn't go back and suggest changes to the ones before he got involved? Personally, I've long said (since before MP left, even) that some people may not like the "oversight" but it makes them better. I feel JLB is like that.
I believe they kept in touch and sent files back and forth and made suggestions from afar. This was only about a week long process that he recorded vocals I think and then when JP heard some things he wanted more direction on he decided to fly up there. The interview I read was short and didn't go into that much detail but that is what I gathered from it.
Edit: Found a couple interviews
This is a very interesting interview from the time ADTOE came out. He discusses the band dynamics and other intriguing stuff. I remember this being talked about a lot on the forum when it was first published. In this interview, James says JP only came up to Canada to oversee Build Me Up, Break Me Down. I may have gotten that wrong about the 3 or 4 songs or whatever but I thought JP mentioned in an interview somewhere that he went up for more than just one.
https://www.prog-sphere.com/interviews/resurfacing-an-interview-with-james-labrie/
Edit again: This one JP says they did the first two tracks in NY and then James suggested going to Canada and then John flew up there for a few tracks. Slightly different information but nothing too contradictory other than simple memory lapses
https://www.musicplayers.com/features/guitars/2011/1011_JohnPetrucci.php
-
Absolutely. I bought the CD/DVD set back then but I sold it about a year ago. The CDs just sound horribly and the DVDs aren't much better. I agree with you that some songs sound ok, but overall I didn't like it at all.
Absolutely. Went all out and bought the 'Deluxe' version. Boy, what a dissapointment. For the life of me, can't imagine what all the delay of release was about. It sounds like crap to me.
-
BTFW has the unfortunate distinction of having the WORST compression I've ever heard. Like, some drum hits make the music drop out. It's distracting. I also wish we could hear the orchestra but am aware of probable issues with the orchestral recording. Also, the canned audience noise drives me up a wall.
But if it was a studio album the latter two wouldn't exist and I think that aside from the compression it sounds good.
-
BTFW has the unfortunate distinction of having the WORST compression I've ever heard. Like, some drum hits make the music drop out. It's distracting. I also wish we could hear the orchestra but am aware of probable issues with the orchestral recording. Also, the canned audience noise drives me up a wall.
But if it was a studio album the latter two wouldn't exist and I think that aside from the compression it sounds good.
I assume you mean LALP instead :P
-
I'm still a bit mixed based on what we've got so far. DT12 was one of DT's lesser sounding albums even on HDTracks, LALP was ok, but the Christmas release was solid, and BTFW sounded really good. And DT have said they were aware of the feedback from DT12 and wanted a different sound this time.
So I guess I'll let DT13 be the decider!
ADTOE was mixed by Andy Wallace. And I don't think Chycki mastered it either. What do you mean by lesser sounding albums as far as ADTOE? My gripe on this album are two things, mainly sonic issues:
-The drums sound very buried. Didn't MM record this on his home studio?
-JP's guitar sounds like there was a bedsheet over the amps...the songs kick ass live but the guitar in the studio versions sounds thin and whimpy
I didn't mention ADTOE since Chycki wasn't involved, but I'd consider that DT's worst sounding album sonically since WDADU, basically for the same reasons as you. The drums sound raw and have no punch, the guitars are overwhelming and muddy, and the whole mix is just generally off.
I'm still wondering what happened on that one. I hope this is DT's Vapor Trails and will get a retreatment sometime in the future (although I doubt it will happen since I haven't seen the backlash on the sound on this one outside the main DT forums). But reading Wallace's mixing credits, I still have to wonder, what happened? Why was this botched?
On DT12, I understand the snare experiment and DT has come forward and recognize they won't be doing again..But on ADTOE? I don't I recall reading or seeing anyone from DT coming out forward and addressing the sonic issues on ADTOE.
There was an interview with MM where he talked about the ADTOE drum sound. It was primarily a tracking issue (not a mixing issue) - they had big issues with mic bleed so it made it very difficult to get in the mix without loosing oomph
somewhere.
-
BTFW has the unfortunate distinction of having the WORST compression I've ever heard. Like, some drum hits make the music drop out. It's distracting. I also wish we could hear the orchestra but am aware of probable issues with the orchestral recording. Also, the canned audience noise drives me up a wall.
But if it was a studio album the latter two wouldn't exist and I think that aside from the compression it sounds good.
I assume you mean LALP instead :P
No, I don't even listen to LALP for my own sanity