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Dream Theater => Dream Theater => Topic started by: Riitasointi on July 24, 2015, 09:40:25 AM
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Just something I've been thinking recently.
JP used to nail EVERYTHING. Every phrasing, vibrato, bend and passage no matter how fast or slow used to sound amazing when he played them. Nowadays his playing seems to be much more sloppy, showcased on Live At Luna Park, Breaking The Fourth Wall and some recent stuff on Youtube. Not to mention his tone, which is crap compared to the 90's or early 2000's. :-\ Somehow I put this together with him getting huge ass muscles and especially the new Majesty guitars (which look horrible btw).
What do you guys think of this? Anyone bugged about this as much as I am? :laugh:
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I have noticed he isn't as spot on with his solos as he was on say..Budokan.
But those could always have been touched up so we'd have to go by bootlegs to be 100% sure.
Plus he's almost 50 and it might be harder for him.
He has mentioned before that he is very aware of his playing being affected by his workouts and when to stop etc..
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Yeah, I'm especially surprised that he can't play lots of DT12 solos properly (The Enemy Inside is a prime example, I never once heard him nail that live, but he also slightly flubbed Behind the Veil on a recent YouTube video). It's one thing not to be able to play stuff you recorded in your 20s and 30s, but it's your latest release, why would you record solos that are over your head when you're pushing 50 and declining technically?
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I wouldn't say worse. I would say old.
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JP getting worse?
No.
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Well, none of us are getting any younger. JP not as fast? Maybe. Doesn't necessarily mean worse. You can play slower and still be just as good or even better.
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JP getting worse?
No.
Wait ! You're not Hef !
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Well, none of us are getting any younger. JP not as fast? Maybe. Doesn't necessarily mean worse. You can play slower and still be just as good or even better.
Yeah, playing slower is definitely not the problem. Slow playing can be awesome indeed. The problem is sloppy playing.
And yes, of course he gets older and that affects his precision. But if it's only age, it has delayed its arrival and then appeared rather fast don't you all think? He used to be inhumanly good for many years and then suddenly I see this decrease in tightness. Of course my point of view could be twisted by his tone as well, which basically sucks on recent releases of the band.
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But if it's only age, it has delayed its arrival and then appeared rather fast don't you all think?
No.
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But if it's only age, it has delayed its arrival and then appeared rather fast don't you all think?
No.
Alright, I guess it's solved then...
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JP getting worse?
No.
Wait ! You're not Hef !
It's OK, I"ve licensed that out to bosky.
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But if it's only age, it has delayed its arrival and then appeared rather fast don't you all think?
No.
Alright, I guess it's solved then...
Glad we are in agreement.
JP getting worse?
No.
Wait ! You're not Hef !
It's OK, I"ve licensed that out to bosky.
We share a lot of things. Not just France.
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But if it's only age, it has delayed its arrival and then appeared rather fast don't you all think?
No.
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Absolutely. Many of his fast solos these days are quite sloppy actually. Maybe it's because I play guitar myself, but it has been very noticeable for me over the last few years.
Particularly when you compare it to say Live in Tokyo, where his solos were just butter smoothness.
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Absolutely. Many of his fast solos these days are quite sloppy actually. Maybe it's because I play guitar myself, but it has been very noticeable for me over the last few years.
Particularly when you compare it to say Live in Tokyo, where his solos were just butter smoothness.
I just checked out the LiT version of UAGM, which is one of his more challenging solos, there's a mistake at 6:48: https://youtu.be/twMsgXsI2_g?t=6m48s. So even in his prime he made tiny flubs, no need to worry. His tone, however, especially when he's playing rhythm, needs to be fixed asap, it the weakest point of the otherwise impeccable latest live release.
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If he's not the precision master he once was - he's still nowhere near Kirk Hammett levels of fucking up.
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This is obviously not an either-or situation. He's in his 50s, *obviously* things will get harder for him.
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Perhaps he's just realizing that execute the same thing verbatim over and over night after night is boring. That said, I disagree with everything else, including the majesty guitar. I think it is beautiful.
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It's certainly nicer than the Paul Gilbert Fireman - which is a fucking Ugly piece of crap.
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No I don't think JP is getting worse for missing a note here and there when playing live. If it's a consistent thing, like he's missing the same note in the same section of the same song every night on stage, then yes; I'd say he's losing something of his ability, but if he's missing the occasional note sporadically on tour, then there could be a number of reasons. He could be tired that night, the band could be playing at a different tempo (though this is unlikely due to MM using a metronome.) He could be sick. He could be bored with the song and want to change it up a bit. Getting worse? Nah...
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We share a lot of things. Not just France.
bosk! Think of the children!
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Weren't his fastest solos always pretty sloppy? I remember in the early 2000s (apparently his peak according to the OP) he definitely couldn't do the TGP arpeggios, for example.
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He's in his 50s,
Isn't he 47/48?
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So JP's a sloppy player now? Really?
WTF??
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So JP's a sloppy player now? Really?
WTF??
That's DT fandom for you :lol
Seriosuly, JLB misses one note in a 90 minutes concert and all the bloggers say is: "James is not the singer he was in 2002" (and thank god for that, they can't even get their facts straight when they complain! :biggrin:)
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The guys a bear, its tough to play with claws night in and out. We are lucky his strings aren't snapping every song.
Seriously, is this real? He is getting older and mistakes happen live. He is human afterall.
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So JP's a sloppy player now? Really?
WTF??
Well, overall no, obviously. Some of the outrageous shit he does in the studio is just insane and the fact that he can't always quite replicate it live simply demonstrates that he's a human being. I was just pointing out that that's not a new thing.
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I don't think so. I think people underestimate how technical some of his DT12 solos actually are. He was never perfect back in the day either. As ariich said, TGP intro is a fine example, he never completely nailed that.
Saying that, JP live these days is perfect compared to a lot of guitarists live performances out there.
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Well, none of us are getting any younger. JP not as fast? Maybe. Doesn't necessarily mean worse. You can play slower and still be just as good or even better.
This
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Haha I see not many are thinking along the same lines as me... :D I'm just a sucker for perfect execution when it comes to live playing. DVD's like Score and L@B blow me away with the tightness of JP's guitar parts and it just makes me sad to hear the recent recordings with muddy and (I know I've used this word way too much at this point) sloppy playing of his.
The tone is perhaps even worse a problem though. Even DT12 had a disappointing guitar sound. It was supposed be a delicious chocolate cake and what we got was... err... a very dried up cake with not very much chocolate at all. Does anyone know how his gear has changed from, say, Octavarium days 'till now?
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Saying that, JP live these days is perfect compared to a lot of guitarists live performances out there.
This. JP's solos, as we all know, are incredibly difficult to play. Let's consider he's playing live, standing up, doing those motherfucking solos and playing songs that last at least six minutes each, for more than two hours minimum. Now consider he's been doing that shit for 30 years non-stop. There's got to be a point when you can't do that stuff perfectly anymore.
I don't think there's a single guitar player that, at 50 years old, plays the guitar solos he composed when he was 25 flawlessly live. *awaits unavoidable quote naming several guitar players that do exactly that* *Seriously though I'm curious to know*
He's not getting younger, and the fact that he can still do most of his solos pretty well live and that he's not doing the horrible things Kirk Hammett is doing to songs like Hit the Lights nowadays shows he's far from being a "sloppy" player (And think about this: Kirk began overusing his wah back when he wasn't even 35 years old). Not like JP's 75, but Age does take its toll.
I can see your point about the tone, though.
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Kirk Dave is a prick, and an useless one.
At the Pantera tribute show, Petrucci was playing flawlessly and then this dude arrives and fucks up the solo completely by playing total unbearable shit and then leaves like the prick he is.
So, no, JP is awesome.
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His tone is crap now? No way. Granted, I still prefer the sound of his Ibanez over the Music Man, but it's still really good. I think his tone wasn't that great at first live with the Music Man - it's like it was too muddy or something at times, which I notice every time I watch LSFNY - but it got better over time.
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Kirk is a prick, and an useless one.
At the Pantera tribute show, Petrucci was playing flawlessly and then this dude arrives and fucks up the solo completely by playing total unbearable shit and then leaves like the prick he is.
So, no, JP is awesome.
Wasn't that Dave Mustaine?
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Kirk is a prick, and an useless one.
At the Pantera tribute show, Petrucci was playing flawlessly and then this dude arrives and fucks up the solo completely by playing total unbearable shit and then leaves like the prick he is.
So, no, JP is awesome.
Wasn't that Dave Mustaine?
Yeah my bad, was typing fast cuzz I wanted to take a dump.
Both suck anyway.
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I loved his tone this tour. So crisp, metallic, and biting. Might have been my favorite JP sound actually. Breaking the Fourth Wall doesn't remotely capture how it sounded actually being there.
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Kirk is a prick, and an useless one.
At the Pantera tribute show, Petrucci was playing flawlessly and then this dude arrives and fucks up the solo completely by playing total unbearable shit and then leaves like the prick he is.
So, no, JP is awesome.
Wasn't that Dave Mustaine?
Yeah my bad, was typing fast cuzz I wanted to take a dump.
Both suck anyway.
No, Kirk is really really bad. Dave is/was great composer and decent live player.
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Yeah, I don't really get the Mustaine rant either.
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I wouldn't say he's getting worse. That being said, I am not a huge fan of his tone over the past 2 albums especially his lead tone. Also, am I the only one that thinks he has not written a standout, memorable solo since Black Clouds? I do like 8:09 of Breaking all Illusions though. I agree with all the posters who said his live rhythm tone needs to change. It's very muddy and notes just bleed into one another. I also believe it makes his solos sound more sloppy than they really are.
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Oh c'mon, I've seen Dave live and indeed he's decent.
But none can deny that his solo at Cemetery Gates was horrific.
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:lol If you say so. :dunno:
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Well I won't argue with tastes and thoughts. I do think he's Decent but not Good. As a composer, well yeah, he proved that he didn't need Metallica to be famous and cool, I'm just not a particular fan of his guitar playing. (Kirk does suck, however, and so does Dave's solo still)
No famous musician is worse than Lars, nuff said.
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Ok, so when did his Budokan solos become spot on? Did you guys listen to As I Am and Endless Sacrifice? Granted, MP was playing quite fast that night- see Stream Of Consciousness, and listen to the trem picked start of the solo. Pretty clear with that how fast MP is going. But AIA and ES are especially sloppy and flubbed during their fastest parts.
And yeah, his live tone is not good at all IMO since Systematic Chaos. Which is a shame, cuz his studio tones remain incredible. The main issue is the amount of delay and chorus he uses. Yes, Lifeson does too. But not to the degree JP does now- even on all of his rhythm tones. Heavy riffs/tones do not work well with chorus IMO.
About the topic, I feel he may have slipped a touch. But it's not like he is mutilating solos. And like Kotwboy said, it's not Hammett.
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Oh c'mon, I've seen Dave live and indeed he's decent.
But none can deny that his solo at Cemetery Gates was horrific.
Off Topic but...
Wasn't Dave suffering from some nerve damage shit in his hand?
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Weren't his fastest solos always pretty sloppy? I remember in the early 2000s (apparently his peak according to the OP) he definitely couldn't do the TGP arpeggios, for example.
That solo was borderline breakneck speed in the studio version, and if you listen to it closely, even that's not 100%. And they played it even faster live, where I think he sometimes had to try sweep picking it instead. I think that's a pretty ambitious solo, as are some of his others.
I wouldn't say JP is getting "worse", but as he gets older I don't expect him to be able to play consistently as fast as he did at half his age, and playing these songs night in and night out is going to take its toll.
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Well I won't argue with tastes and thoughts. I do think he's Decent but not Good. As a composer, well yeah, he proved that he didn't need Metallica to be famous and cool, I'm just not a particular fan of his guitar playing. (Kirk does suck, however, and so does Dave's solo still)
No famous musician is worse than Lars, nuff said.
Kerry King, Jack White, Meg White, Gene Simmons.
There's plenty of famous musicians who are terrible at their instrument.
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I wish the thread title was more specifically, "Is JP's playing accuracy declining?" - that's all I'm curious about, and it seems like that's what the OP is asking. I feel like half the answers here are just people getting defensive over the word "worse". As if anyone was saying there's anything wrong with JP missing a few more notes per night than when he was younger.... Just, is he, and does age cause that in a guitar player? How?
My curiosity has nothing to do with his compositional skills or ability to emote with his playing; obviously that's not going anywhere.
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Well I won't argue with tastes and thoughts. I do think he's Decent but not Good. As a composer, well yeah, he proved that he didn't need Metallica to be famous and cool, I'm just not a particular fan of his guitar playing. (Kirk does suck, however, and so does Dave's solo still)
No famous musician is worse than Lars, nuff said.
Kerry King, Jack White, Meg White, Gene Simmons.
There's plenty of famous musicians who are terrible at their instrument.
Gene Simmons is not terrible at his instrument at all. Can't speak for the rest.
I'm not sure there are any drummers in bands as big as Metallica that are as bad as him. He can't even count basic timing these days.
Even JP on his worst day is better than any other musician mentioned in this thread though, so it's kind of an insult to him to mention them. :lol
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Oh c'mon, I've seen Dave live and indeed he's decent.
But none can deny that his solo at Cemetery Gates was horrific.
One of the worst metal guitar live moments ever.
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I wish the thread title was more specifically, "Is JP's playing accuracy declining?" - that's all I'm curious about, and it seems like that's what the OP is asking. I feel like half the answers here are just people getting defensive over the word "worse". As if anyone was saying there's anything wrong with JP missing a few more notes per night than when he was younger.... Just, is he, and does age cause that in a guitar player? How?
My curiosity has nothing to do with his compositional skills or ability to emote with his playing; obviously that's not going anywhere.
Yeah, basically I meant this when I opened this thread, thank you :)
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I wish the thread title was more specifically, "Is JP's playing accuracy declining?" - that's all I'm curious about, and it seems like that's what the OP is asking. I feel like half the answers here are just people getting defensive over the word "worse". As if anyone was saying there's anything wrong with JP missing a few more notes per night than when he was younger.... Just, is he, and does age cause that in a guitar player? How?
My curiosity has nothing to do with his compositional skills or ability to emote with his playing; obviously that's not going anywhere.
My answer is still the same. No, I don't think so.
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His current tone has pros and cons: while it helped JP to sound faster (and he actually is compared to the first decade of his career, but not as much as he may seems) it also makes things way more noticeble.
For instance, does anyone remember how the Lie's solo used to sound during the '90s?
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The later material is much more challenging and technical than the earlier stuff. He's always pushing the limits of what he can achieve, and its difficult to replicate that spot on every night. But its not like we're talking about major flubs -- only tiny nuances.
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Yeah, I don't really get the Mustaine rant either.
That particular solo wasn't the greatest obviously, but he's a good player in general.
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Weren't his fastest solos always pretty sloppy? I remember in the early 2000s (apparently his peak according to the OP) he definitely couldn't do the TGP arpeggios, for example.
That solo was borderline breakneck speed in the studio version, and if you listen to it closely, even that's not 100%. And they played it even faster live, where I think he sometimes had to try sweep picking it instead. I think that's a pretty ambitious solo, as are some of his others.
I wouldn't say JP is getting "worse", but as he gets older I don't expect him to be able to play consistently as fast as he did at half his age, and playing these songs night in and night out is going to take its toll.
How JP is able to play the TGP appreggios on the Gigantour DVD as well as he did is beyond me. They were fucking flying through that song tempo-wise on that DVD.
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Err, those arpeggios are completely fudged. Like, completely.
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Err, those arpeggios are completely fudged. Like, completely.
Certainly not perfect, but I wouldn't say completely fudged. That's why I said "as well as he did."
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From what I remember, they're pretty fudged on Gigantour. When you take a section that was that difficult even in the studio, then speed it up and stick it in a live setting, something's gotta give. If they played it now with a click track though, I'm sure he'd do a good job of it.
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Yeah, not sure why L@B is considered so flawless; as mentioned above, ES, at least, was pretty fudged. I think he's probably gotten very slightly worse at a steady pace over the last 15 years or so, but it's only now at the point that it's really noticeable at all. Hard to know exactly what the cause would be. It does seem that his sweeping especially has gotten a bit dicey. But overall, he's still excellent and well above most players, even technically renowned ones, in his age group.
What's interesting is that JR, who is far older, has never been accused of slipping technically in any way, at least that I've seen. And nobody's said MM is slipping, even at 50 and playing a more physically demanding instrument.
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fudged
fudged
fudged
fudged
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uovMpapeCJQ
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Thats a lot of fudge you got packed in there ! :neverusethis:
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I'm not a fudge packer!
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/IKbLquqxBAQ/hqdefault.jpg)
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some of you guys are too critical, I am a john McLaughlin fan I think he tone isn't as good as it used to be and hey he is 72 and still great and get facts right john is 48 and james sounded great at the rambling man fair on saturday
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this may be a little off topic, but I've been a longtime fan of JP since the early 2000s
I imagine most of you are familiar with JP's Rock Discipline instructional video/DVD
It's been quite sometime since I last watched it, but I recently watched this lesson on youtube
https://youtu.be/xUFvO3WK9YQ
fast forward to 5:34
What stands out in particular is his note choice, phrasing, tone and overall improvisational skill. Reminds me of Brett Garsed
I feel like some of that is lacking nowadays... or maybe it's just me
thoughts?
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this may be a little off topic, but I've been a longtime fan of JP since the early 2000s
I imagine most of you are familiar with JP's Rock Discipline instructional video/DVD
It's been quite sometime since I last watched it, but I recently watched this lesson on youtube
https://youtu.be/xUFvO3WK9YQ
fast forward to 5:34
What stands out in particular is his note choice, phrasing, tone and overall improvisational skill. Reminds me of Brett Garsed
I feel like some of that is lacking nowadays... or maybe it's just me
thoughts?
I agree there is a lot less of that variety and fusion type spark in his playing. That part definitely does sound Garsed type. Sounds like The Myth or something like that. Garsed is the fucking man.
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Figures. The Beard's in the way. :angel:
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JP definitely needs to go back to Mark amps. Not digging the Triaxis tone at all recently. The 2011/12 tour with the Mark V, it felt like his palm mutes were punching me in the face.
The Majesty guitar would sound enormous live through the V.
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JP should go back to his multicored guitar, nuff said.
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He should go back to the BC Rich guitars and whatever amp he had back then. The Majesty demos had the best production I've ever heard in my entire life.
:neverusethis:
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JP should go back to his multicored guitar, nuff said.
I've always preferred the sound of the JPM's over the Musicman.
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JP definitely needs to go back to Mark amps. Not digging the Triaxis tone at all recently. The 2011/12 tour with the Mark V, it felt like his palm mutes were punching me in the face.
The Majesty guitar would sound enormous live through the V.
I really loved his Mark V rig, but honestly when I saw them play on the DT12 tour, the Triaxis rig sounded fantastic. It just hasn't been captured well on a live recording yet, as good as BtFW was, the guitar tone was flubby, especially the palm mutes, like you mentioned above. But in the room, actually hearing the Triaxis rig live, it was big, heavy and punchy.
It sounded to me that on BtFW they didn't capture much of the room sound (how the guitar sounded more than an inch or two off the speaker cabinets). The tone sounds digital and a little too effects laden. I feel like it was missing the body that it has when you hear it in the room. Makes me wonder how they captured the sound for the DVD, if they used the mic feed that they use for the house sound live, or if they went directly out of the Triaxis rig. Either way it sounded like it could have used a couple extra mics that night sitting a foot or more back off the cabs to blend with the mics right up on the speaker grills.
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JP definitely needs to go back to Mark amps. Not digging the Triaxis tone at all recently. The 2011/12 tour with the Mark V, it felt like his palm mutes were punching me in the face.
The Majesty guitar would sound enormous live through the V.
I really loved his Mark V rig, but honestly when I saw them play on the DT12 tour, the Triaxis rig sounded fantastic. It just hasn't been captured well on a live recording yet, as good as BtFW was, the guitar tone was flubby, especially the palm mutes, like you mentioned above. But in the room, actually hearing the Triaxis rig live, it was big, heavy and punchy.
It sounded to me that on BtFW they didn't capture much of the room sound (how the guitar sounded more than an inch or two off the speaker cabinets). The tone sounds digital and a little too effects laden. I feel like it was missing the body that it has when you hear it in the room. Makes me wonder how they captured the sound for the DVD, if they used the mic feed that they use for the house sound live, or if they went directly out of the Triaxis rig. Either way it sounded like it could have used a couple extra mics that night sitting a foot or more back off the cabs to blend with the mics right up on the speaker grills.
This! I thought I was the only one who loved the Triaxis rig.
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This! I thought I was the only one who loved the Triaxis rig.
You definitely aren't the only one. I'd be curious to hear what the Triaxis rig would have sounded like on BtFW captured and produced with the audio quality of LaB or Score. People's opinions may be different then... It's certainly a little different of a sound, but its a great sounding rig, IMO.
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I don't really have much of an opinion on whether he is more or less sloppy than he was at another point in time but I will say that if he hypothetically was it could be a million other factors than just "age". Playing an instrument isn't analogous to say playing sports in that there are so many examples out there in many genres where people play late late into their years with the same skill they had earlier. This is very evident in many classical musicians for example. And of course as stated earlier in this thread, MM and JR have been extremely even over the years.
In this case, maybe the relentless practicing he did when he was young took a backseat to other priorities in his life as they appeared (family etc)?
Considering the evidence based on others I don't think he couldn't play as well now as he could at any other point in his career.
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I' d like to preface my post, by stating this is by no means a knock on JP considering he is by far my favorite guitar player
but compared to the likes of the steve vais, paul gilberts and marty friedmans of the guitar playing community it seems as though JP has to work harder to replicate what he has laid down in the studio
that being said it always amazes me how he is able to faithfully reproduce the end if this dying soul and the in the name of god unison but on the same token have difficulty reproducing certain leads that seem inferior as far as their technicality goes
anyone else agree?
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I don't think it's really a loss of ability, but I wouldn't be surprised if he spends less time practicing his parts than he did in his 30s.
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JP getting worse?
I dare you to say that to his face. Da Bear will rip it off as you say it LOL :lol
ON topic - No, I don't believe so. Everyone is human and has good days and bad days, regardless of what they do to pay their bills. Cut the guy SOME slack at least - he's not a robot.
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Yeah don't say that.
JP's arms are powerful enough to shred with your pubic hair.
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I don't think it's really a loss of ability, but I wouldn't be surprised if he spends less time practicing his parts than he did in his 30s.
I don't know. He plays the same tunes and solos day after day, for months on end.
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Playing is different that practicing though.
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I don't think it's really a loss of ability, but I wouldn't be surprised if he spends less time practicing his parts than he did in his 30s.
I don't know. He plays the same tunes and solos day after day and night after night.
FTFY.
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ROOOOOAAAAAR!
Seriously though, it may be he is not practicing playing older songs note by note. But I think it's ridiculous to say he's getting any worse.
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Seriously though, it may be he is not practicing playing older songs note by note. But I think it's ridiculous to say he's getting any worse.
The entire thing is silly. Sure, there are a couple clips here and there where he's missed a note or didn't nail a solo exactly....but it's still incredible playing. The guy has produced a quadrillion notes of the utmost difficulty and in the rare instance he misses one of them or changes them he's lambasted as 'getting worse' :lol
As far as the sound or whatever that whole discussion is....I'm so thankful not to have that level of knowledge about the music and can just appreciate how awesome it is.
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JP getting worse?
I dare you to say that to his face. Da Bear will rip it off as you say it LOL :lol
ON topic - No, I don't believe so. Everyone is human and has good days and bad days, regardless of what they do to pay their bills. Cut the guy SOME slack at least - he's not a robot.
Hey this is DTF! Next month someone will start a thread saying that JP plays too robotically. They will hold up as evidence that he doesn't play live solos differently than in the studio and that he rarely makes any mistakes.
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More evidence that JP is not getting worse. The Wachen Set that is now on YouTube. Theory....destroyed.
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More evidence that JP is not getting worse. The Wachen Set that is now on YouTube. Theory....destroyed.
Yep. Not much to discuss IMO after that performance :hat
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More evidence that JP is not getting worse. The Wachen Set that is now on YouTube. Theory....destroyed.
While you could make an argument about James (he had a bad show unfortunately), you can't for JP. He (and the rest of the guys) fucking nailed it.
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I'd like to to play guitar as bad as JP does... ;)
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I couldn't help but think of this thread the whole time I was watching JP tear it up on the Waken video. The solo and ending riffs of BTV was absolutely incredible. I'm grateful I'm not sophisticated enough to detect his errors. :biggrin: