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Dream Theater => Dream Theater => Topic started by: amagr on July 10, 2015, 12:22:27 PM
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I listened to FII recently and i dont understand hate on You Not Me, i think its great song!
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I am guessing the chorus rewrite with Desmond Child, changing what was I thought a political song to a love song. It is pretty straight-forward, meaning and song wise also. I feel this song was the most egregious FII smackdown by the label in MP's eyes.
Personally, it's not at the very bottom for me. The chorus is catchy, and the electronica type stuff is unique for DT at that point. Whether or not Desmond Child is a fool, the man co-wrote a poppy chorus, which is just what the label wanted.
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I love FII, and I think YNM is a great song. Desmond Child is a great songwriter, and I never care about the lyrics. Haters gonna hate. Always.
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LaBrie's voice in the song gets on my nerves, the bass sounds like crap, and there's nothing special about it, it's very manufactured.
Just Let Me Breathe on the other hand gets far too much hate, I actually think it's pretty alright, not amazing but alright. It's got better pop sensibilities and it's more fun to listen to.
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For me, I don't like the stop start break between the verse and the chorus. The demo version (You or Me) doesn't have that and is much more smooth as a result. Granted, the chorus in YNM is much better than YoM, but that break plus the elimination of instrumental section in the middle of the demo just makes it an average rock song, far below DT's standard.
It would be interesting to hear the song in the original key that it was re-written in (which was higher) - you can hear a brief sample of it on the 1997 DTIFC (Making of FII), or even the demo that JP and Desmond Child created, since the descriptions of it sound very different to what ended up being recorded on the album. Perhaps it would appeal to me more if it were closer to what JP and Desmond Child came up with.
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This would rank near the bottom DT songs for me; but it's still pretty good
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I don't hate it by any means. The general consensus around here is that it is a mediocre song. That may be the case but that doesn't mean it sucks. It has a lot of groovy stuff in it. Don't care about the so-called lack luster lyrics because I'm a fan of music. There really isn't a bad song on the whole album and FII is highly underrated. If given a choice between listening to FII and DT12, I'll take FII every time.
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I don't think You Not Me is as bad as people say it is, but I definitely prefer You or Me.
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I actually love the guitar riff right after the chorus and overall the vocal melodies aren't that bad. The song is much better than that abomination Just Let Me Breathe.
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Falling Into Infinity makes up for it by having Trial Of Tears AND Hell's Kitchen AND Lines In The Sand.
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It's really not that bad. It just doesn't sound like a song Dream Theater would do. It is way better than the demo though.
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Yeah it's really not that bad. I particularly like the intro riff and the outro. But the best part for me is the instrumental/guitar solo-thing. It's pretty cool. However I rarely tell myself ''Oh let's listen to You not Me'' (or most of the other songs on the album for that matter). But when I listen to the album as a whole, it's pretty enjoyable.
Falling Into Infinity makes up for it by having New Millenium AND Hell's Kitchen AND Peruvian Skies.
And this too (Although I had to correct the typos in two of the titles you wrote :biggrin:)
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Because it's not good. That chorus is just so bad. Musically, there are some nice things going on, but that chorus is too bad to recover from.
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Because it's not good. That chorus is just so bad. Musically, there are some nice things going on, but that chorus is too bad to recover from.
This.
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It's really not that bad. It's just doesn't sound like a song Dream Theater would do. It is way better than the demo though.
That, although I'd only put the studio version slightly ahead. There's nothing bad about the song at all, it's just poppy, and has a mismatched chorus, but the song is far too average to warrant any level of hate. DT has done worse songs, and far better ones. I can listen to it just fine, although it's the only song I regularly skip on FII.
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Because it's not good. That chorus is just so bad. Musically, there are some nice things going on, but that chorus is too bad to recover from.
That's always been a problem, because I think the verse and other work is very catchy. And taking out the bridge was an awful decision. I really liked that bridge from the demo.
Derek really brought some great embellishment to both the demo and the album version. The song itself had quite a bit of potential. I'm a sucker for the thumping bass taking over while all the other instruments just add atmosphere. No matter how many times I hear it, I always like the tense feeling it creates. The subdued storm feeling.
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That is a nice vibe with the bass almost taking the lead there, which is one of those nice musical moments I was talking about. It's similar to Constant Motion, another song that has a few nice things going on, but has too much bad stuff in there to overcome, thereby making the song nearly unlistenable. The chorus to You Not Me and "FOREVERMORE, INTO THE NIGHT BLISTERING" are easily DT's most embarrassing moments involving singing put on record.
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At least they didn't pay for that chorus ...
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"FOREVERMORE, INTO THE NIGHT BLISTERING"
I'm not a big fan of Constant Motion, but I never saw the problem with this line.
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There are some cringe worthy moments in CM and the chorus in YNM isn't the greatest either. Still not enough to kill both songs. On the other hand, you have a song like Repentance that is saved by JP's solo. Outside of that, not much else in the song does anything for me. Just goes to show, it doesn't take much to make or break a song.
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"FOREVERMORE, INTO THE NIGHT BLISTERING"
I'm not a big fan of Constant Motion, but I never saw the problem with this line.
Me neither, I mean apart from forevermore being a rather generic syllable filler, the lyric describes MPs experience pretty accurately. I'm not a drummer but I play from time to time on some of my friends kits, and... All I have to say is; it gets tiring. Even after only a fairly short amount of time :lol. I can only imagine it's gets fairly blistering if you're playing 2+ hour shows everyday for extended periods of time so... I dunno, sounds fine to me.
I am guessing the chorus rewrite with Desmond Child, changing what was I thought a political song to a love song. It is pretty straight-forward, meaning and song wise also.
This is the main issue for me because You Not Me makes a lot less sense lyrically than You or Me, so I think it was changed for the worse. That being said the chorus for YOM was never anything particularly special to begin with, it just makes more sense to me in the context of the song. So take YOM out of the equation and I guess it's just that YNM is just really average (or slightly below) like everyone is saying. Interestingly, is there anyone that actually does hate it? Because so far I'm surprised that everyone in this topic is more or less saying yeah it's not the worst, it's just not the best either. Maybe it's not hated much at all? It's just kinda there.
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I'm a fan of both You Not Me and Constant Motion.
You Not Me is one of those songs that I probably wouldn't give a second look if it was from a band I didn't already like, but since it is from a band I like on an album I like, I've been willing to give it more of a shot, and I really do like it. It's a catchy pop-rock song that doesn't deserve the hate it gets, in my opinion. Yes, it's among the band's weakest songs, but I personally think it's pretty fun. The pre-chorus is pretty good, in my opinion. Quite catchy.
Constant Motion has its problems, but I really like it as a song. I especially like it lyrically, because I'm someone who gets what MP is talking about in the lyrics with OCD and everything. Yes, they're a bit dramatic, but they pretty accurately encapsulate the experience of having obsessive thoughts. Forevermore, into the night, blistering is not among the strongest lyrical moments there, but I like it well enough as part of the whole lyrical message.
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Personally I probably like the music and vocal+instrumental composition and harmonies better in You Not Me, and the lyrics in You or Me. YNM just sounds like a weird Linkin Park-ish tantrum about a destructive relationship. You or Me makes it sound a bit more bearable.
Musically, in comparison to other songs, there's nothing special about these songs (IMO). They're nice, they might be catchy, and DT wrote a few worse things as far as music is concerned. But at the time, and combined with the awkward lyrics, it was probably a big surprise for people who were used to hear I&W and Awake tier songs on the 2nd song of a new album back then (and for anyone who ever heard FII for the first time since).
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Hate is a strong word for me. It just doesn't feel like DT's song at all, not even a bit.
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Hate is a strong word for me. It just doesn't feel like DT's song at all, not even a bit.
Well, you're partially correct. It's not DT's song completely. It's mostly JP's and Desmond Child's song. It's too commercialized. It would've felt more like a DT song had they incorporated at least a little prog into the mix. Still, the song isn't horrible by any means.
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A while back I made a poll about whether people preferred YNM or YoM. Surprisingly, YNM only lost by a relatively small margin. I had always heard people loving YoM a lot more. I personally love YNM although I would put it somewhere in the middle or slightly below compared to the rest of DT's catalog.
https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=33712.msg1378390#msg1378390
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There's not really that much of a difference between You Not Me and You Or Me, except You Not Me has a better chorus. Reason enough for me to say that Desmond Child's contribution was positive.
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I'm not sure I get the "commercialized" comments, to be honest. I almost wonder if the reaction wouldn't be different if it didn't have "D. Child" in the credits.
The one thing I don't like is a constant criticism of almost the whole album, and that is the vocal arrangements. I don't mind the verses, but the over-enunciated "YEWWWWWW, not MAYYYYYYYYYYYY" choruses irritate. But musically, I don't see worlds of differences between this and my favorite DT song of all time, "Cover My Eyes".
"It's all about YEEEWWWWW. Not. MAYYYYYYYYYYYY. It's all about YEE-uh-EEEEEEW. Not. MAAYYYYYYYYY." Though still not as bad as Doug Pinnick's wailings on "Lines In The Sand".
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I don't think YNM is a bad song by any means - I'd take it over New Millennium or JLMB any day. However, the transition into the chorus is unnatural and there's nothing about the song that makes me want to go back to it. It's just a harmless radio rock song, for better or worse.
You or Me had a weaker chorus, but it fits the song better and the keyboard melody that got removed from the album version is pretty awesome, though this version isn't that amazing, either.
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For me, it's not so much of my hate for You Not Me, but rather how much it changed from the original You Or Me. I like the original and I dislike the newer version. I don't really have any strong feelings, one way or the other. I just prefer the original, un-altered version the band wrote.
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I like the original and I dislike the newer version.
I like elements of both.
Demo version strong points:
better chorus (although still not great)
bridge
Studio version strong points:
Derek's keyboard sounds and playing are on the whole better
Petrucci's guitar work is on the whole better
In short, the core songwriting was mostly better on the demo, but the embellishments were mostly better on the studio.
You can cut and paste between the two and produce a better song, but no matter what you do between the two ... the chorus will still be weak. The chorus has always been DT's Achilles' heel. I think most highly successful bands start with the chorus, but I don't think that is the case with DT.
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I like the original and I dislike the newer version.
I like elements of both.
Demo version strong points:
better chorus (although still not great)
bridge
Studio version strong points:
Derek's keyboard sounds and playing are on the whole better
Petrucci's guitar work is on the whole better
In short, the core songwriting was mostly better on the demo, but the embellishments were mostly better on the studio.
You can cut and paste between the two and produce a better song, but no matter what you do between the two ... the chorus will still be weak. The chorus has always been DT's Achilles' heel. I think most highly successful bands start with the chorus, but I don't think that is the case with DT.
I think the only chorus I don't care for from DT is in A Nightmare to Remember. Beautiful Agony is fine, but the main song chorus isn't. They write great choruses.
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You or Me had a weaker chorus, but it fits the song better and the keyboard melody that got removed from the album version is pretty awesome, though this version isn't that amazing, either.
Yeah, that piano bridge is actually pretty sweet. Fairly simple chord progression but I always thought it was a strange part to cut from the song because.. Well it sounds awesome.
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I know I'm a bit late but w/e, I don't think You Not Me is as bad as people say, IMO, the only songs to drag down FII's success are JLMB, Anna Lee and Take Away My Pain.
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Who compared YNM to a puppy that crapped on a carpet, I can't remember? That was funny. :lol
Personally, I think it's an OK song, and I prefer the studio version to You Or Me. Not great, but certainly not bad.
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I don't hate it. I like that DT can get a little "funky" once in a while!
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I happen to like the song a lot, and think it gets a bad rap because it signifies the label pressure they were facing at the time. Taken on its own merit, though, it's a fine song that I always enjoy when listening to FII (which is a terrific, underrated album).
The bigger question for me is why "Cover My Eyes" didn't make the album. If the label was pushing for accessible songs and crossover potential, why the hell would they let DT leave off a 3.5 minute song with a super catchy chorus?
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I don't hate it. I like that DT can get a little "funky" once in a while!
What is "funky" about You Not Me?
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I too liked that song a lot. That Post chorus/Outro riff section sucks me in everytime!
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It could be worse for YNM/YOM - it could be named The Dark Eternal Night. ;)
I don't hate it. I like that DT can get a little "funky" once in a while!
What is "funky" about You Not Me?
The main wah riff and variations can be taken as funky sounding. JP also uses some heavy muting in his solo that also gives off a funky sound. Not true funk or anything I would agree on that.
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I happen to like the song a lot, and think it gets a bad rap because it signifies the label pressure they were facing at the time. Taken on its own merit, though, it's a fine song that I always enjoy when listening to FII (which is a terrific, underrated album).
The bigger question for me is why "Cover My Eyes" didn't make the album. If the label was pushing for accessible songs and crossover potential, why the hell would they let DT leave off a 3.5 minute song with a super catchy chorus?
just for the record, "Cover My Eyes" is my favorite DT song ever.
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I personally dislike the song from the first time I listened to FII. Other songs were mostly ok, but I just couldn't stand the chorus in YNM. That melody, along with the drum beat (talking about the chorus), it's just nope for me, I don't know why, but I just feel like listening to some shitty band when I hear that