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Dream Theater => Dream Theater => Topic started by: erwinrafael on June 25, 2015, 02:55:31 AM
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While we are still waiting for updates on the new Dream Theater album, I think it would be fun to have a Mike Mangini through the years thread. Every other day or so, I will feature a Mike Mangini work (could be an album or two, or even just a song) and follow his career over the years. I would miss some of his works which I do not have access to, like his work with fellow Bostonian Sal DiFusco, his crazy Chix n Stix project, and his work with pop artist Chris Emerson. Once we get to the current day (that is, Breaking the Fourth Wall), I plan to go through the top ten (eleven) drum albums that most influenced him, as he discussed in this article (https://www.musicradar.com/news/drums/dream-theaters-mike-mangini-my-10-most-influential-drum-albums-553178), and see how it showed in his work.
To kick things off is Mike Mangini's first major work:
SET THE WORLD ON FIRE by ANNIHILATOR
Tracks played in:
Set the World on Fire
No Zone
Bats in the Belfry
Knight Jumps Queen
The Edge
Don't Bother Me
Brain Dance
This is pretty solid straight-up hard-hitting metal drumming from Mike. Nothing spectacular yet, as Mike's unique talents and orchestration skills were not really utilized. I expected some fast drumming because it is Annihilator, but it's not yet to be heard in this record. We do get to listen to good rhythm work, particularly with the bass drums, an aspect where Mike has always been excellent. Best drum work here for me is Brain Dance (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HupelZBXrgQ). Don't Bother Me is also good, especially with the way Mike maintained catchy bass drum patterns throughout the song.
Pretty good work, but this is nothing compared to his next major work (no, I am not talking Highlander III).
Updates:
Extreme's Waiting for the Punchline / Nuno's Schizophonic (https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=44034.msg1975949#msg1975949)
Steve Vai's Fire Garden / G3 Live in Concert (https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=44034.msg1976606#msg1976606)
Mike Keneally and Beer for Dolphins' Egg Zooming (https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=44034.msg1977473#msg1977473)
Mullmuzzler's Keep It to Yourself (https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=44034.msg1978322#msg1978322)
Steve Vai's The Ultra Zone / The 7th Song (https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=44034.msg1978600#msg1978600)
Steve Vai's Alive in an Ultra World (https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=44034.msg1979482#msg1979482)
James LaBrie's MullMuzzler 2 (https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=44034.msg1980275#msg1980275)
Tribe of Judah's Exit Elvis (https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=44034.msg1981209#msg1981209)
Annihilator's All For You / The One (https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=44034.msg1981909#msg1981909)
Tim Donahue's Madmen & Sinners (https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=44034.msg1982721#msg1982721)
James LaBrie's Elements of Persuasion (https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=44034.msg1983673#msg1983673)
Subdivisions: A Tribute to Rush (https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=44034.msg1986394#msg1986394)
Stygia (https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=44034.msg1988327#msg1988327)
Annihilator's Metal (https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=44034.msg1990424#msg1990424)
Daniel Pique, Shredding the Envelope, Ethan Brosh (https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=44034.msg1993068#msg1993068)
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Great album too - Annihilator's "sell out" album but a good combo of everything from melodic rock to thrash.
And of course my favourite Mangini photo moment - see if you can spot him
(https://www.metal-metropolis.com/Annihilator/annihilator_pic2004.jpg)
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haha, did he not get the memo??
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haha, did he not get the memo??
I like his "So what?" look, "I inverted the colours, grey top, black bottom. It's called polyclothing!"
B.Lee
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Following since Im not too familiar with his other work... and to say that picture is hilarious :lol
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Yeah looks like he's desperately holding a huge piss and mumbling "cmn guysssss i cant take it anymoooore...."
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haha, did he not get the memo??
I like his "So what?" look, "I inverted the colours, grey top, black bottom. It's called polyclothing!"
B.Lee
Polyclothing. Hahaha!
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what i like about this guy is being humble :) he deserve to be in d best band. being musician in band is not all about skills. attitude is also a must.
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what i like about this guy is being humble :) he deserve to be in d best band. being musician in band is not all about skills. attitude is also a must.
I've had the opportunity to speak with him twice and I agree completely. Each time he acted like he was the luckiest dude in the world to get to play in DT. He has the energy of a 20 year old too.
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Second part:
WAITING FOR THE PUNCHLINE by EXTREME (1995)
Tracks played in:
Hip Today
Leave Me Alone
No Respect
SCHIZOPHONIC by NUNO BETTENCOURT (1996)
Tracks played in:
Swollen Princess
Fine By Me
This is special to me because I first got to know Mike Mangini through this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sm3tQYXbpKo
It was shown in an obscure Philippine TV channel that shows David Letterman, and my thought then when I watched it was "Wow, there's a new Extreme record! And...they have a new drummer. He's left-handed! No, right-han...what?"
If Mangini's work in Annihilator's Set the World on Fire established him as a solid drummer, his work with Extreme showed that this young drummer is something special. The highlight of Mangini's work during this time is the song Hip Today. You can listen to this here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWr_-6gNAd8) (mods, I hope it is okay that I give links). In keeping with Extreme's style, MM maintains a basic catchy groove throughout the song. However, his work in the instrumental is what made the drumming in this song stand out from the Extreme catalog. While maintaining a 7/4 groove, MM's bass drums highlight Pat Badger's bass riff and at the same time, starting at the 3:00 mark, his cymbals followed Nuno's lead, which goes out of the 7/4 pattern. When I first heard this, I can not make sense of how a single drummer played all that. Amazing polyrhythmic drumming.
Leave Me Alone (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76BUI0BJNIk) is a joy to drum. The simple hypnotic pattern is deceptive, as random changes happen during the verses. According to an anecdote, the number of bass hits of MM and Pat Badger in the individual lines depend on how many fingers Gary Cherone would raise as they were recording it.
No Respect, on the other hand, initially felt to me like Cupid's Dead part 2, until I realized that the downbeats on the hi-hats kept on playing even as Mangini did a fast drum roll (https://youtu.be/J-PvV7EL13E?t=2m3s). It was my first exposure to the Mangini one-handed+double pedals drum roll.
After Extreme went on hiatus, Mike still played on the solo efforts of Nuno and, later on, Gary Cherone. Mangini's work on Nuno's Schizophonic is good fun rock drumming. He's doing Dave Grohl's drumming on a Foo Fighters record one year before Dave Grohl drummed on a Foo Fighters record. What the hell am I saying?
Mangini's stint with Extreme revealed his unique talents to a wide public, and it's not long before he caught the eye of a musical genius who likes to play alongside fellow musical geniuses.
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what i like about this guy is being humble :) he deserve to be in d best band. being musician in band is not all about skills. attitude is also a must.
I've had the opportunity to speak with him twice and I agree completely. Each time he acted like he was the luckiest dude in the world to get to play in DT. He has the energy of a 20 year old too.
he cries when i watched d video drum audition of him. crying tears of happiness :)
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This is where I met MM. I knew they had a new drummer and heard the 3 songs on WFTP. You could tell right away how different he was. By seeing him live in Boston blew me away! Holy cow what a drum set and damn! How many arms did this guy have?! :lol
At the end of the set they were destroying amps and their instruments for the encore "No Respect". I had no idea at the time they were breaking up.
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WFTP and Schizophonic are two of my all time favorite albums. Swollen Princess is a great song.
Hip Today is a cool one too, it's worth pointing out the solo section which is in 7/4. While nothing on the level of what he's been doing with DT, you hear a bit of a polyrhythms here and get a glimpse at his unique approach to the instrument (the way he separates the four limbs). But technical stuff aside, it's just a really tight groove and a great guitar solo. Stuff like that got me excited for Mangini in DT but unfortunately he doesn't really groove that way in the band.
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Third part:
FIRE GARDEN by STEVE VAI (1996)
Tracks played in:
Bangkok
Fire Garden Suite [particularly a) Bull Whip, the end part of b) Pusa Road, and d) Taurus Bulba]
G3: LIVE IN CONCERT by G3, specifically Steve Vai (1997)
Tracks played in:
Answers
For the Love of God
The Attitude Song
Steve Vai, for me, is the artist who most understood how to best utilize Mike Mangini's talents. Mangini became part of Vai's favorite band, which included Philip Bynoe on bass and the incredible Mike Keneally on guitars and keyboards. Vai even went so far to say "It seems like any hassle I ever had in any band because of egos or whatever, just melted away when the Good Lord blessed me with this musical ensemble." And I agree. Of all the Vai band lineups, this is the one that sounded like a band, not a bunch of super-talents put together.
Anyway, Bangkok + Fire Garden Suite (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNqdk2z-6Xo) showed us Mangini's orchestration technique. Highlighting what Steve is doing, keeping a good rhythm, going up and down the scale, matching guitar sweeps with melodic fast drum rolls, syncing cymbals with Steve's notes. I loved this song so much that I bought a second cassette tape of this album because my first cassette tape became so worn down with too much rewinds and replays.
Mangini's work on the G3 album also showed us how good of a live drummer he is. He played Chris Frazier's parts with respect, but with his distinct enhancements, especially with the fills and the bass drums. Answers (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGdi5rrWElk) is my favorite among Mangini's work in the G3 album. So smooth and effortless! Mangini also had the distinction of playing the first recorded live version of The Attitude Song, which is one of the most live performed songs in Vai's catalog.
Mangini's stint with Vai would lead to the most ridiculous drumming in his career so far, which I will discuss in the next installment.
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I saw Vai live with Mangini and Keneally - one of my all time favourite gigs , even though people were passing out all around me from heat exhaustion.
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Fire Garden was always a fav of mine back in the day. Those two tracks MM played on are particularly incredible.
Good performance on the G3 DVD too.
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I saw Vai live with Mangini and Keneally - one of my all time favourite gigs , even though people were passing out all around me from heat exhaustion.
Wow. What tour is this? Fire Gardrn or Ultra World?
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I saw Vai live with Mangini and Keneally - one of my all time favourite gigs , even though people were passing out all around me from heat exhaustion.
Wow. What tour is this? Fire Gardrn or Ultra World?
Fire Garden. I wish now that I had taken the day off work and taken in my Ibanez JEM for him to sign at the in-store he did .
I went off Vai a bit after this album , but no matter when I have seen him (incl G3 with JP and Satriani) he has always dominated on stage. I'm pretty sure I really noticed Mangini properly for the first time around this time too . I was a big Annihilator/Extreme fan too , but (photo aside) he didn't stand out to me in Annihiliator and I disliked the Extreme album so much I didn't bother to listen properly :)
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Hahaha. I get what you mean with the Extreme thing. It took me almost a year to appreciate their new music. It's just fortunate that Mangini is in the few songs in WFTP that I immediately liked - Hip Today and Leave Me Alone.
For Annihilator, that first album with Mangini did not do him justice. His second stint, though, is :metal !
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Fourth part:
SLUGGO by MIKE KENEALLY AND BEER FOR DOLPHINS (1997)
Tracks played in:
Egg Zooming
Egg Zooming (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXcbXZ_H9BA) is a Mangini masterpiece.
It's one of the most amazing pieces of drumming I have heard, in which I can say that I have heard drumming in this song that I never thought was possible. My words will not do justice to this piece, so I'll just post Mangini's description of what he did here:
"If there were ever a reason why I’ve practiced combining numbers from two to twenty, with and against each other, that song is the reason. I started with a rough sketch of the song but basically had to sight-read it when I did the track. Keneally walked me through each section while I created my parts in my head, and then I played him what I thought would work, and that was it. Much of it was read on the spot with the fills being improvised."
"The opening section has two bars of nineteen against four and eleven against four, with my feet playing the nineteens and elevens while my hands are subdividing the quarter notes into 3’s, 4’s, 5’s, and 7’s. In the melody section all of the polyrhythms are played with my left hand while my right hand plays an unbroken quarter-note pattern on a Zil-Bel. Before the drum solo section Keneally decided he wanted a drum fill in 7/4, so I placed four notes against the seven and put eleven notes inside each one of the four notes. In the drum solo section I had to sing the time signature changes in my head as a guide to improvise over. I created triple-layered polyrhythms in that section mainly because for the first time in my life I was allowed to express the musical ideas that I felt inside of me."
"As we were approaching the end of the song, Keneally said that if there was anything else that I hadn’t thrown in already to go ahead and go for it. It was so much fun and we were laughing like a couple of nine-year-olds. So I took a 4/4 bar and thought of it as 32/32. I took groups of thirteen notes and started on the second 32nd note, which set my pattern over the next thirty-one notes. Then I placed triplets inside each of the thirteen notes, which came out to be thirty-nine against thirty-one. When I do this type of thing I feel the notes musically and I get an image of a shape or a number, but I’m not counting while I’m playing."
And I love this blog entry of Mike Keneally on recording this piece with Mike Mangini back in 1997:
"Mike Mangini, the famous and cute drummer with the Steve Vai band, today came in and played impossible drums on "Egg-Zooming". All he had prior to today's session was a rough mix of one and a half minutes of music (the finished piece is nearly seven minutes long) and the charts I wrote during the first two tours of this year. So he was confronted with many new sections today, including a super-hyped coda which he didn't even know existed because I wrote it after I gave him his chart. To say he acquitted himself admirably is total faint praise damnation. He was magnificent. The reason he got the gig to play the song was because he walked by me while I was writing out the charts on an airplane during one of the tours, and stopped in his tracks - he could SMELL the odd subdivisions. He looked down and saw a bar which contained a 19:16 tuplet over the entire bar (played by bells and moog) while the guitars are playing a septuplet in the first beat of the bar. Mike read the bar, calculated the movements required to execute both tuplets simultaneously, and handed me back the chart with the words "Yeah. I can do that". Ladies and gentlemen, he did it.
We also ate Chinese food and I met Frank Dolan, the lanky fellow who helps Michael prepare his instructional books. Frank was there when Mike whipped out his song-ending series of nineteen-tuplets (which may not be on the album if I decide to fade the song as planned), which Mike accurately described as sounding like an Air Force bomber flying over San Diego accidentally dropped a load of bricks which burst through the ceiling of the studio and landed on his drums. The fill was immediately transferred to Double Time's answering machine, so give a call if you want to hear it."
LOL!
Coming up, Mangini's first work with a Dream Theater member, and, in my opinion, it did not really start well.
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Following now. Wow, that Egg Zooming song really amazed me. What a masterpiece.
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Fifth Part
KEEP IT TO YOURSELF by MULLMUZZLER
Tracks played in:
His Voice
Statued
Shores of Avalon
Beelzebubba
Guardian Angel
Sacrifice
Lace
Slow Burn
This is one of my least favorite Mike Mangini drum records. For me, the drumming here sounds like a bunch of parts that sound great individually, but does not make a cohesive whole when put together. A lot of drum parts are unusually heavy in songs that do not to warrant heaviness. Indiscriminate double bass playing, which is quite uncharacteristic of MM who usually creatively uses pauses and rests in between double bass hits. The biggest offender is Statued, whose heavy intro drum riff and continuous double bass playing in the chorus always felt like it's trying to make a song "metal" just for the sake of being metal. His Voice (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-HAzfz_E-pI) also suffers some of the same problems, although it is a bit more cohesive and has much better orchestration. Air-drummers seem to like this song, but, for me, it's a matter of the sum being much less than its individual parts.
There is very good drumming, though, in Shores of Avalon (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJrbi8CPE8s). I love the rhythmic bass drum playing in the instrumental, and the orchestration in the whole song is good (which is the Mangini I am used to hearing). The drumming in Beelzebubba (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1S-l7eeIAzY) is also quite good.
A lot of the drum playing in the other songs have a "professional session musician" drum sound to them. Competent, good enough, but a bit uninspired.
I wonder if my problems with Mangini in this record is really a matter of the songs having weird musical arrangements. It's like the songs are trying to sound "metal" just because it is James LaBrie of Dream Theater. Thankfully, the second MullMuzzler record would strip itself of these pretensions to sound "metal", and the quality would greatly improve. Elements of Persuasion would return to the metal sound, but LaBrie and his band already know what they want to sound like by then.
Coming next, Mangini continues his work with Vai. This would start an amazing run of excellent drumming in different albums featuring a wide range of musical styles, which would culminate with his getting a full-time position in Berklee.
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It sure is lonely in here. :p
Sixth part
THE ULTRA ZONE by STEVE VAI (1999)
Tracks played in:
Jibboom
Windows to the Soul
Here I Am
THE 7TH SONG by STEVE VAI (2000)
Tracks played in:
Christmas Time is Here (originally released in Merryx Axemas, 1997)
Boston Rain Melody
After Mangini displayed his orchestration technique in the Fire Garden Suite, his succeeding collaborations with Steve Vai revealed more facets of his playing abilities.
The first two tracks in the list are the highlights. Jibboom (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jw76jmL_TEw) shows amazing non-metal speed drumming. It's happy drumming, as I always have this impression of Mangini having a big smile on his face when playing this masterpiece (and it appears that he did (https://youtu.be/cNVO0mjDqh4?t=31m) have a lot of fun). At the other end of the speed scale is Windows to the Soul (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aNSrptQcCVE). Mangini's 11/8 beat is minimalist, disciplined, and moody, which is exactly what the song needed. The rest of the other tracks are good, non-flashy, drum work.
What Mangini's stint with Steve Vai really showed is his range of techniques and playing styles. Vai, to me, is the artist that really understood Mike's range and exploited it.
Coming next, Mangini accompanies Vai in an ambitious project to write and record a new song in every country they would visit in their world tour. Possibly my favorite Mangini drum album just for sheer ambition, we would hear Mangini play waltz. With an accordion accompaniment.
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Anyone still reading this? It feels like updating a personal diary. :lol Anyway...
Seventh part:
ALIVE IN AN ULTRA WORLD by STEVE VAI (2001)
Tracks played in:
Giant Balls of Gold
Burning Rain
The Black Forest
Alive in an Ultra World
Devil's Food
Blood and Glory
Iberian Jewel
The Power of Bombos
Incantation
Light of the Moon
Babushka
Being with You (in Paris)
Principessa
Brandos Costumes (Gentle Ways)
During the 2000 world tour for the Ultra Zone album, Steve Vai conceived of a project to write a new song for every country they would visit. Steve Vai is crazy. What we got is this amazing double album of new songs composed while on tour, practiced during extended soundchecks, and recorded on the night that the song debuts onstage.
Because of the nature of how the songs were written, the playing of Mangini in this album is relatively on-point and uncomplicated in structure. The simpler song structures breathed Mangini's playing with a lot of raw improvisational energy. The effort to write a song based on the country to which the song is dedicated to also stretched the range of styles of playing in the songs. As I said in an earlier post, Mangini plays waltz (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3W3daUZAXqM) in this album, with an accordion accompanying them. He also played some metal, a lot of rock, some blues, a couple of marches, a proggy-11/8 rhythm, and a rocked-up version of Italian ballroom.
From a drumming standpoint, Iberian Jewel (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTLE3HRbQlc) is tops. From the 0:54 mark (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTLE3HRbQlc&feature=youtu.be&t=54s) onwards, it really sounds to me like a Dream Theater instrumental. Mangini's fills and the basic rhythm is killer. This is how you compose a song that would feature Mangini.
Incantation (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kG1biIdmLU) is also another good drumming piece, so much so that this is the song where Virgil Donati did his drum solos in Vai's later world tour. The 11/8 basic drum rhythm sounds like MP's drum rhythm in the instrumental section of The Dark Eternal Night, played in a more "classic rock" style. Mangini's improvs in this song exude power, instead of speed.
Devil's Food (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3qMFp2G9dE) is the only song in this album which is not new. The playing is topnotch, and the interaction by the band after Vai broke a guitar string is funny. Mangini showcased speed drumming and orchestration in this song.
This is one of the few records where you can hear the "fun" factor in the songs. I always find myself smiling when listening to Vai and his band in this album having fun, making mistakes, improvising, and showing off. What a fun album. Even the audience is funny (somebody shouted "A guitar for me!" after Vai gave away a pick. LOL). This is definitely my favorite in Steve Vai's discography.
Alive in an Ultra World marks Mangini's last collaboration with Steve Vai. I hope they would get a chance to play together again because Vai brings out the "fun" side and the versatile range of Mike Mangini.
Coming next, a second round with James LaBrie, which would become a preview of things to come much later in Mangini's career.
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I'm immensely enjoying this thread, especially given how slow things have been around here lately. Pls do continue. :corn
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Thanks. 7 more parts to go before we get to his Dream Theater stint. :)
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Reading but can't contribute much. I was a huge Vai fan up until around Fire Garden but it all got a bit too weird for me and I dropped off following closely around then.
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Reading but can't contribute much. I was a huge Vai fan up until around Fire Garden but it all got a bit too weird for me and I dropped off following closely around then.
Try listening to some of the songs that I provided links to. Songs like Jibboom, Windows to the Soul, Iberian Jewel and Incantation are pretty accessible. :)
Ultra Zone is not the weird Vai, unless you find the Indian influence in The Blood and Tears weird. It's pretty much similar in structure to the Fire Garden album. However, if you are referring to the 1998 album Flex-able Leftovers, yeah, there is a reason why those songs were left out from the Flex-able album. :lol The Elusive Light and Sound in 2002 is not any better, too many fillers. The last two studio albums: Real Illusions - Reflections, and The Story of Light are pretty good, though.
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I will check out some of the stuff you suggest. I have so much music to listen to that I'm not the most loyal supporter when an artist disappoints me a couple of times , even for my favourite artists. I prefer Vai in the DLR band and on the slightly more commercial stuff on albums like Passion & Warfare and Alien Love Secrets. Even Fire Garden lost me a bit , even though it has its moments.
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Great stuff man, keep going! I've been following, just haven't had the chance to post much in this thread or in general.
Keep it up! :tup
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dont know a lot of Mangini's pre-DT work so really enjoying reading this. Thanks!
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I'm also eagerly waiting for the next parts. I don't know much about the previous works of Mangini and I'm interested in knowing.
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erwinrafael, as you see, you are not alone! It's really a cool topic! :tup
I'm curious for your next analysis. The Mullmuzzler albuns are still my favorites of him. Really very spontaneus drumming on those!
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Thanks, guys. I've been meaning to do this for quite some time now as MM's work is not really known by a lot. I hope you would get to listen to some of the Youtube videos I link to so that you would get to listen to samples of his work over the years and not just take my word for it that he has been excellent for a long time now. :lol
Tomorrow, I would do the MullMuzzler 2 update. Let me give an off-topic comment that this album has to be one of the best James LaBrie vocal performances. Even better than a lot of his Dream Theater work. The songs are just fit for his range and style.
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Fantastic thread, thanks for drawing attention to Mike's roots. I too saw Mike for the first time with Extreme in 95 and I can honestly say, it was both eye opening and jaw dropping what a drummer can bring to songs, when he is so musically aware of everything. Hearing him and Nuno Bettencourt together was something I will never forget. It is no surprise to me that DT chose him, but it's funny how the guy was in my former favourite band and is now in my current favourite band. I will long for the lost tapes of Extreme's followup to Punchline, but I cannot think of a better place than DT for his talents to truly shine.
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Eighth part:
JAMES LABRIE'S MULLMUZZLER 2 by JAMES LABRIE'S MULLMUZZLER
Tracks played in:
Afterlife
Venice Burning
Confronting the Devil
Falling
Stranger
A Simple Man
Save Me
Believe
Listening
Tell Me
Re-listening to this record now, I realized that this is the first time the Mike Mangini that we would hear in A Dramatic Turn of Events showed up. His work with Extreme and Steve Vai had the different elements of his drum style, but MullMuzzler 2 has the combo that we would similarly hear in ADTOE, although in a less polished version. Amazing bass drum control, highlighting the different instruments in the orchestration, melodic use of the different elements of the drum kit, limb independence, speedy drum fills - this album has the Mangini that Dream Theater fans would recognize.
In my analysis, the much better quality of drumming in MullMuzzler 2 compared to MullMuzzler's first album, Keep It To Yourself, was driven by the more appropriate musical arrangements of the songs. There is no pretension to sound metal and badass all the time, so we got more disciplined, more appropriate, and more technically proficient drum parts. There were some rough parts where Mangini sounded like he's doing too much, for example, in songs like Stranger and Listening where there were fills that sounded awkward. But overall, this album is a very good drum album. Not yet at the level of the drumming in the Dream Theater albums, but the signs that he's going to reach that level are in this album. MullMuzzler 2 also boasts one of the best sounding studio drum production for Mike Mangini.
MullMuzzler 2 further highlights that Mangini's drumming specialty is in orchestration and in rhythmic drumming, not in drum fills. He does not do drum fills much, and it seems like a stylistic choice to concentrate the creative energies more on drumming within the context of the song. This is important to note because this could explain why the drumming in Mangini-era Dream theater albums sound different from the Portnoy-era Dream Theater albums, and I don't expect that it would change much in future albums.
For drumming highlights, make a playlist of these three songs:
1. Venice Burning - For some reason, there are no active uploads of this song in Youtube. The drumming in this song would really pass for drumming in ADTOE, reminding me a bit of his drumming in Lost Not Forgotten. The bass drum parts are amazing, especially in the instrumental part where the bass drums did all the work while the other limbs maintained the beat. Must listen if you want to learn bass drum control.
2. Save Me (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdGThjRtDuU) - Bam baBam baBam. Killer drum riff. Very good straight-up metal drumming.
3. Tell Me (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdKk_kxRXyA) - My favorite drumming in MullMuzzler 2. Mangini plays blast beats while hitting half-notes in the hi-hat with his right arm. Aggressive drumming, with amazing phrasing in the bass drums and accents in the cymbals. Groovy drumming in the chorus. This is perfect.
Coming next, an underappreciated gem of a rock album. Mangini stretches his playing style yet again and plays industrial.
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Ninth part:
EXIT ELVIS by TRIBE OF JUDAH
Tracks played in:
Left for Dead
No One
East of Paradise
Thanks for Nothing
Celibate
Ambiguous Headdress
In My Dreams
Suspension of Disbelief
My Utopia (Anthropolemic)
Exit Elvis
Mike Mangini has a funny story for his involvement in this album. From this interview (https://www.knac.com/article.asp?ArticleID=1750):
"Oh, you’re interviewin’ Gary? It’s funny, you know… we were both out in LA at the same time… we had gone out there at the same time -- me for Vai and him for Van Halen… and ran into each other playin’ pool. We kept in touch during that time… when I finished up with Vai -- he had called me right before I was leavin’… I was going to take a position at Berklee School of Music and really excited. He called me when I was going to get my gear out of storage at this warehouse -- I had gotten stuck in the elevator -- we were just stuck there -- he calls -- I’m stuck there, and need to get my gear -- he says we have to have dinner… I said, “I’m going home…” and he said, “We have to have dinner tonight!” I said, “Gary I’m tryin’ to go home…”. He said, “We have to have dinner tonight… I’m leaving Van Halen.” So, jeez…now I’m trying to get out of the elevator and get my gear -- But I ended up meeting him for dinner… and then it was like, “Well, I’ll see back home.”... and that was it.”
:lol
Drumming in yet another style, Mike Mangini's work in Tribe of Judah is a mix of rock, industrial, and doing his best drum machine / programming mimicry. It has been taken down now, but in his old website, I remember Mangini saying that they would program drum parts for this record, and then he drummed it in a kit during the recording. So, no programmed drum parts here (although don't take my word for it, I am just going by memory here).
Because of the nature of the songs in this record, Mangini's focus here was establishing catchy, most of the time danceable, beats. For essential drum listening in this album, I would recommend:
1. No One (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CjJ56Jmsqx0) - Yeah, right, drum machine Mangini can't groove. He shows how to drum the basic groove here (https://www.drumheadmag.com/web/v1_images/education/ed_video/6_ed_ex3.swf), using his C&C system of limb coordination using the eyes.
2. East of Paradise (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HO48jZdbeDA) - less flash than No One, but wow, that drum groove is just danceable.
3. Thanks for Nothing (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-288FeOKxaI) - the guy in the vid is not Mangini, but Mangini's the one who played this. :lol Very good straight-up hard rock drumming. Angry drumming, even, like Portnoy's drumming in Awake.
4. Suspension of Disbelief (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BFysbd5GT0Q) - Mike plays disco!
Coming next, Mangini reunites with Jeff Waters. And this time, Mike brings his machine gun.
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Anybody here who has listened to the Tim Donahue album, Madmen and Sinners? I do not have that album, but only heard bits and pieces of it in Youtube. It came out before All For You, so maybe somebody can share what Mangini sounded like in that album before we go to Annihilator.
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Great thread; I have been listening to the YouTube Links and really enjoying hearing music I don't normally listen to. Thanks for putting all this together.
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Erwin, PM sent.
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I find it funny when drummers do instructional videos and they're like
" Ok for this song - you'll need 5 hi hats :) "
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I find it funny when drummers do instructional videos and they're like
" Ok for this song - you'll need 5 hi hats :) "
LOL!
Mike has a free lesson here to develop limb coordination, and it's very helpful.
https://www.drumheadmag.com/web/page.php?id=10
Video of the basic system:
https://www.drumheadmag.com/web/v1_images/education/ed_video/1_ed_cclimbexp.swf
I think he would be a fun teacher.
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Tenth part
ALL FOR YOU by ANNIHILATOR (2004)
Tracks played in:
All for You
Dr. Psycho
Demon Dance
The One
Bled
Both of Me
Rage Absolute
The Nightmare Factory
The Sound of Horror
THE ONE by ANNIHILATOR (2004)
Track played in, not included in All For You:
Weapon X
Mike Mangini reunites with Jeff Waters, and this album is like the unleashing of the beast. Mangini has had an outstanding discography before this, but I would say that his playing in the previous albums are best appreciated by those who would intently listen to the drum parts and appreciate the nuances. In All For You, Mangini's playing is literally screaming "SUPER DRUMMER!" because the display of chops is very in-your-face.
While Mangini has shown flashes of speed in previous albums, All For You is the first album that exploited Machine Gun Mike consistently. The highlights of this album are the extremely fast drum rolls and the fast double bass playing, which would put death metal drummers to shame because Mangini uses speed with orchestration. All For You made Mangini a force to reckon with in metal, which became both a blessing and a curse because it would stylistically box him in the years to come (with the exception of his 2005 work) until the chance to play with Dream Theater came along.
If I would recommend highlight songs in terms of drumming, listen to these (and let your jaw drop. LOL):
1. Weapon X (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4mbW0cHsEgo) - that's just a short sampler. Amazing thrash metal drumming with crazy fast drum rolls!
2. Demon Dance (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Vs3Zyx6DNE) - More thrash! I think the drums in this song are mixed too low as I sometimes can not distinguish some of the drum rolls from the riffing[/url]. When I first heard this, I did not finish it because the drumming is too intense I had to take some time to take it in.
3. Rage Absolute (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXrTpnKHJiQ) - Still more thrash? Well, I was thinking of not including this because I already recommended Demon Dance, but this part (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXrTpnKHJiQ&feature=youtu.be&t=3m55s) just begs to be shared for awesomeness.
4. Both of Me (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJZV0-5-rwM) - Best drum track in the album. Orchestration is topnotch. Whenever I listen to this song, I can not help but picture Mangini playing this with his "I'm having fun" face and body language (you know, the one we saw in The Shattered Fortress). Definitely one of the Mangini masterpieces.
Coming next, we would stay in 2004 as I feature Mike's collaboration with Tim Donahue. Thanks to goo goo!
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Just wanted to share that because of this "project", I have created a "The Mike Mangini sampler" playlist consisting of 14 songs he played in before joining Dream Theater. Total running time is 1 hour, 18 m, 35 s, so it would fit in one CD. I think this playlist would show how accomplished a drummer Mike is before DT.
I'll share this once the series is complete.
I have a lot of time in my hands. :lol Actually, this thread is my stress reliever while I am doing my MA thesis.
EDIT:
Damn it, here you go (https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLk3003sHn29s5A0HSbDl-8KeN-YFWKKeX).
Enjoy!
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Hey, Erwin, you know you should work more on your MA, right? ;D Joke aside, very good job and very informative. Kuddos!
B.Lee
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Eleventh part
MADMEN & SINNERS by TIM DONAHUE (2004)
Tracks played in:
Million Miles
My Heart Bleeds
Feel My Pain
Children of the Flame
The End
Master of the Mind
Madmen & Sinners
This work is decent enough. Definitely not among Mangini's best work, but it is professionally done. The style echoes much of the style used in MullMuzzler 2, but the songs are just not strong enough to give Mangini much material to work with. The 16-minute "epic" Madmen & Sinners" is my big letdown for this album because it doesn't have enough interesting parts to warrant the length of the song.
There are good drum tracks here:
1. Master of the Mind - good orchestration, especially in the instrumental parts, with the off-beat cymbal accents.
2. Million Miles (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lelw-FyaImY) - This one is pretty good, ad I'm sure I would have enjoyed this more if there is better drum production.
Coming next, Mike Mangini partners again with James LaBrie and comes up with a second gem of an album.
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Haven't listened to this in a while but it is one of my favorite LaBrie side projects. I would need to listen more intently to the drums to comment. Usually I concentrate on the wicked fretless guitar that Donahue's playing.
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I think Tim should have done more instrumental sections. That is when the album shines. LaBrie was good, but the vocal melodies are just not memorable.
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Twelfth part
ELEMENTS OF PERSUASION by JAMES LABRIE (2005)
Tracks played in:
Crucify
Alone
Freaks
Invisible
Lost
Undecided
Smashed
Pretender
Slightly Out of Reach
Oblivious
In Too Deep
Drained
Up to last night, I was still debating in my mind whether I would endorse this or MullMuzzler 2 as the best Mike Mangini full album before his stint with Dream Theater. I have decided that they are just different animals, which are both excellent in their own ways. While MullMuzzler 2 has better orchestration and other elements that I have come to expect from Mangini, Elements of Persuasion has more elements of surprise, with fills that come out of left field and just make me smile when I hear them. Elements of Persuasion has two of the best Mike Mangini studio performances. This album also gives me hope that Richard Chycki, if he is indeed working in the next Dream Theater album, would know how to capture Mike's drum sounds.
Drumming is excellent throughout the whole album but if I would choose highlights, these would be tops:
1. Drained (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkMRVPMgvlc) - Mike had fun with his cymbals in this song. Like he's messing around but producing good results in the process.
2. Crucify (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7FXeNerHg8) - James LaBrie conspired with Mangini to do Count of Tuscany before Dream Theater even thought of the song. :lol Kidding aside, I have noted in earlier posts that Mangini's strength is more on orchestration and does not really put much of his creative energy on fills. But in this song, Mangini drum fills abound, and they are amazing. It's like those fills Mike does in his live sets, this time captured in the studio.
3. Alone (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRP_MgMCIao) - Sometimes, excellent drumming just comes out because the song is already in itself just excellent. What a beautiful song, would have been Top 6 DT song fo rme if this is a DT song. Mangini could not have drummed this any better. Sneaky drum fills. Solid and "danceable" rhythm. Fast bass and fast hands that are used at just the right moments. Orchestration. I wish there would be a song like this in the next Dream Theater album. This is perfect.
Coming next, Mangini's streak of amazing albums comes to an end with a tribute to one of his drumming idols.
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EoP is my fave JLB solo album (SI being second). Everything's great on the album and the drumming is no exception (and Marco's guitar work!!!! :o)
B.Lee
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Its funny cause EoP was the only work of MM I had listened to before he joined DT, I had listened to the album many years before I knew he was the drummer and I always thought to myself when listening that the drumming really stood out. I never dug to see who it was until MM was announced as the drummer and he had worked with JLB in the past... and then it all made sense. :metal
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Before my next update, some vids of MM showing some of his modifications of drumming in Metropolis.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ry76mQTj2Gk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1pptwl6TRs
Loved the second vid!
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EoP is awesome in every way. Wish I had more to say but I gotta head out of town.
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EOP is musically pretty mediocre compared to Static Impulse and ImpRes, but I love Mangini's drumming on the album and the drum sound is great too. In addition to the songs erwinrafael mentioned I think Lost deserves to be brought up because of its cool groove.
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EOP is musically pretty mediocre compared to Static Impulse and ImpRes, but I love Mangini's drumming on the album and the drum sound is great too. In addition to the songs erwinrafael mentioned I think Lost deserves to be brought up because of its cool groove.
Lost is awesome, and I love the drum beat to that song. It really stands out to me.
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Yep, the drum beat in Lost is very catchy. :) Mangini is excellent all around in this album.
Look what Mangini posted today:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oE0daOk0j1s
:lol :metal
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Yep, the drum beat in Lost is very catchy. :) Mangini is excellent all around in this album.
Look what Mangini posted today:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oE0daOk0j1s
:lol :metal
Thanks for linking to these clips. Mangini is a Monster! We could do with a full show like this!!
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Thirteenth part
SUBDIVISIONS: A TRIBUTE TO RUSH by Various Artists
Tracks played in:
Distant Early Warning
Lakeside Park
Limelight
Subdivisions
Different Strings
Tom Sawyer
Bastille Day
A Farewell to Kings
The Spirit of Radio
Didacts and Narpets
2112 Overture - The Temples of Syrinx
When Mike Mangini discusses his influences, he usually mentions Neil Peart as one of the drummers whose every album he bought and learned to play all the songs. In this album, Mangini showed that he really learned how to play Neil Peart, from the distinctive evenly spaced hi-hat hits to the fills. Mangini's approach here is to stay really faithful to Peart's parts when the overall arrangement stays true to the original arrangement, and then show off his stuff when the arrangement changes. The way he drummed Tom Sawyer (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7p8mrxwxzU) and The Spirit of Radio (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KvEGWPQWKYk), for example, is so uncannily close to Peart's original. This album is one example of Mangini really putting in the effort to study the parts originally played by others, which is one of the reasons why he got the Dream Theater gig.
That said, my favorite drum parts in this album are those where Mangini managed to show off some of his Mangini-isms while also being a Peart-clone, and this three-song run in the first half demonstrates that.
1. Lakeside Park (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEFbmYW0Ruk) - the key to this song is to get the groove in the bass while the hi-hat plays like a drum machine metronome, and Mangini nailed it. The fills in the instrumental section are Mangini-esque. On a non-drum note, Sebastian Bach is amazing in this song.
2. Limelight (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_KoxJIxCHRA) - this is my favorite drumming in the album. Mangini got the trademark breaks, hi-hats, and rides of the song, while displaying his stuff in the other sections, like the one-stroke rolls and orchestration in the modified intro. And in yet another non-drum note, I did not know Kip Winger can sound this good.
3. Subdivisions (https://youtu.be/pBHC-1zHimE) - things got a little weird in the end, but the drumming is still very good overall. Mangini's work on the ride sources is perfect.
Bastille Day (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OhhECRhPLWo) is also very good, and features the best vocals in the album by the late Jani Lane. But damn, Alex Skolnick ruined the song. This is a textbook definition of a lead guitar that lead to nowhere. :lol
Coming up, Mangini becomes a full-timer in Berklee, and his studio output takes a downward turn.
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Yep, the drum beat in Lost is very catchy. :) Mangini is excellent all around in this album.
Look what Mangini posted today:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oE0daOk0j1s
:lol :metal
Thanks for linking to these clips. Mangini is a Monster! We could do with a full show like this!!
The way Mangini is making these songs look easy is :hefdaddy
Panic Attack (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZMnjSL129I)
Constant Motion (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFqsBRn0kNk)
The footwork is so precise, it's like listening to the studio version.
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Yep, the drum beat in Lost is very catchy. :) Mangini is excellent all around in this album.
Look what Mangini posted today:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oE0daOk0j1s
:lol :metal
Thanks for linking to these clips. Mangini is a Monster! We could do with a full show like this!!
The way Mangini is making these songs look easy is :hefdaddy
Panic Attack (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZMnjSL129I)
Constant Motion (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFqsBRn0kNk)
The footwork is so precise, it's like listening to the studio version.
wow, panic attack is stunning. :metal
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Yep, the drum beat in Lost is very catchy. :) Mangini is excellent all around in this album.
Look what Mangini posted today:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oE0daOk0j1s
:lol :metal
Thanks for linking to these clips. Mangini is a Monster! We could do with a full show like this!!
The way Mangini is making these songs look easy is :hefdaddy
Panic Attack (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZMnjSL129I)
Constant Motion (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFqsBRn0kNk)
The footwork is so precise, it's like listening to the studio version.
wow, panic attack is stunning. :metal
Oh hell yea, those videos are pretty solid sound for the drums. Really awesome.
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Sweet videos! MM sounds awesome and looks incredibly comfortable, probably the most comfortable I've seen him look with DT...
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This is an amazing tribute album, love it, very creative.
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I listened to the YT links in the write-up, and I have to say the drumming (as the musicianship on the whole) is solid, but those added sections are hit-or-miss - mostly miss. :P
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I haven't heard this tribute , but that's no surprise as I'm not a big Rush fan. I was surprised to see Jani Lane mentioned on a Rush tribute - he was an under rated songwriter and vocalist but this isn't where I would expect to see his name pop up.
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wow, panic attack is stunning. :metal
Yeah no kidding!
Insane!
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I haven't heard this tribute , but that's no surprise as I'm not a big Rush fan. I was surprised to see Jani Lane mentioned on a Rush tribute - he was an under rated songwriter and vocalist but this isn't where I would expect to see his name pop up.
And he sounded amazing in the record. I even prefer his vocal rendition of Bastille Day compared to Geddy Lee, but Skolnick really just messed up the song. :lol
Sweet videos! MM sounds awesome and looks incredibly comfortable, probably the most comfortable I've seen him look with DT...
Yeah, he's finally owning the songs. See this other video:
The Spirit Carries On (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nm4R7R0xa1w)
Why did I select this mellow stuff? Because Mangini got some flak during the ADTOE tour for not drumming the song to make it his own. I think this performance shows that he is now owning the song.
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I love the interpretations and creative freedom on this album. Such a fresh approach to your usual tribute album.
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Yeah, he's finally owning the songs. See this other video:
The Spirit Carries On (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nm4R7R0xa1w)
Agreed, great rendition of the original drum part. He kept most of the grooves the same, a couple key fills the same and then added his own things in here and there. Good stuff! :tup
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Yeah, he's finally owning the songs. See this other video:
The Spirit Carries On (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nm4R7R0xa1w)
Agreed, great rendition of the original drum part. He kept most of the grooves the same, a couple key fills the same and then added his own things in here and there. Good stuff! :tup
I love how he played double bass. So Mangini to double bass in a ballad.
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Fourteenth part:
STYGIA (demo)
Tracks played in:
Rise
Phoenix
Perfect Dark
Mike Mangini became full-time faculty in Berklee, and this limited his time to play and record with fellow artists. Most of his recording output during his full-time stint in Berklee would be with Boston-based artists and...yeah, for a Mike Mangini fan like me, 2006 - 2009 was not a good time.
This demo with supposedly a supergroup is just...bad. Granted that this is a demo, but the songs by Stygia really sound like a bunch of talented guys strutting their chops but not really meshing to create good music.
You can listen to the demo here (https://www.reverbnation.com/stygia).
Coming next, Mike reunites with Annihilator. Good things happen, but...
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Fifteenth part:
METAL by ANNIHILATOR (2007/2008)
Tracks played in:
Clown Parade
Couple Suicide
Army of One
Downright Dominate
Smothered
Operation Annihilation
Haunted
Kicked
Detonation
Chasing the High
Heavy Metal Maniac
Mangini reunites again with Annihilator for studio work, and the results are the expected amazing level of drumming. The drawback, however, is that a lot of the drumming has a "been there done that" feel to it especially when listened to in relation to his work in "All For You." That does not mean that he did not introduce new elements (which I would highlight in the recommended songs), btu I guess there are only a few variations of what one can do with thrash metal, especially after his already outstanding work in the previous Annihilator album. Still, you need to listen to this:
1. Chasing the High (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFUnIsNteSs) - this is a thrash drumming masterpiece. If Mike Mangini showcased machine gun drumming with his arms in the All For You album, he showcased machine gun drumming with his lower limbs in this one. WOW was the proper description for the footwork in Chasing the High, and he can play it live (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nA2h3tQQpCw). He's running out of breath, and who wouldn't be? I hope he would showcase some of this in future work with Dream Theater.
2. Downright Dominate (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CwqgGcM4a_s) - more blazing footwork in the chorus, and nice supporting rhythm in the guitar duel part.
3. Operation Annihilation (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7K67VeLQxis) - again, good rhythm work with the bass drums, which has been a Mangini signature.
Coming next, we are closing this journey with Mike's 2009 work.
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The intro to Detonation (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qx7iGH8FS2c) is really cool also.
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The intro to Detonation (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qx7iGH8FS2c) is really cool also.
Yeah, for those familiar, that is a staple of Mike's drum solos. :) The drumming in the song itself is pretty standard, though.
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Sixteenth part:
BOO! by DANIEL PIQUE (2009)
Tracks played in:
Croack
Over Dee Moon
Peacock Ink
Pigs Might Fly!
They Snickered At My Dreams
THE CALL OF THE FLAMES by SHREDDING THE ENVELOPE (2009)
Tracks played in:
The Call of the Flames
Standstill and Scream
Devils Roadmap
Caravan of Cannibals
Where Are My Real Brothers
Ruby Avalanche Red Flood
I Just Don't Want to Say Goodbye
The Wonder, the Curse, and the Crave
Shredding the Envelope
OUT OF OBLIVION by ETHAN BROSH (2009)
The Hit Man
Night City
Downward Spiral
Ancient Land
Illusion
In a Sentimental Mood
Blade Runner
Last Hope
2009 was a busy year for Mangini. Aside from teaching full-time in Berklee, he also played session drums for several new acts. It is nice to see Mangini supporting up and coming artists despite his already considerable stature in the industry at the time. And the good thing about Mangini is that even if these are newbies, he does not phone in his performance. The drumming in these albums is superb. However, the overall quality of the music is not really up to par. The Call of the Flames by Shredding the Envelope (Dave Reffett), in particular, is testosterone-driven wank that I barely find listenable. The full album is downloadable for free here (https://www.cdbaby.com/cd/ShreddingTheEnvelope). Daniel Pique's Boo is just marginally better, just take his self-proclaimed "he is the most influential artist of this new generation in South America, maybe in the world?!" with a grain of salt. And hey, the album is legally downloadable for free also (https://danielpique.com/boo.zip).
Of the bunch, I find Ethan Brosh's work best. The Berklee alum really has composition skills and serious chops. I just with he would have a better taste in making music videos (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9ZsC_dgS8U). Mangini's drumming is awesome in that song anyway (and it features THE George Lynch).
Still, Mangini fans like me can only say at the time, is this really what is due for the great Mike Mangini while still at his prime? Supporting new acts? He deserves a bigger stage to showcase his amazing talents. He deserves to be in a pantheon of elites where his creativity is pushed to its limits. And you know what?
THANK GOD FOR DREAM THEATER.
And with that, I think I will close this Through The Years thread with my favorite Mike Mangini statement on how much he is cherishing his opportunity to be with Dream Theater. I hope that through this thread, I have somehow made you, my fellow DTFers, better appreciate the journey the Genie took before he landed his dream job with Dream Theater.
Peter Hodgson: So what’s it like, being the drummer in Dream Theater? It’s the dream job for a lot of drummers!
Mike Mangini: It’s been a major point in my life with the fulfilment of what I want to be and who I want to be. My path up until that point was that I had been in bands or working as a drummer and I got to the point where I really didn’t want to work for someone else and be at someone else’s whim because you’re not paid retainer sometimes, you’re hired when you’re hired and you’ve gotta look for jobs in between. I took a job at Berklee College and I started to really bloom over there in terms of learning way more things than I thought. There was so much to make me think, because I was being asked so many different things by students. I dug in and I did well there but the thing is I was taken away from what I loved the most, which was playing. And once you start to teach at a college, they say ‘This is your main gig,’ and I understand what they mean; it’s my main income. That’s what it is. But the main gig is in my heart, y’know? That’s playing, and you teach based on playing. Eventually I had to play more. I didn’t find a way to let both worlds exist – well, I did but then there were some changes happening there and then the opportunity for me to take advantage of gigs and things got squashed so I didn’t wanna live with that. I became open to getting into a band and lo and behold, the opportunity hit me. I had to be prepared for it though, and I really wasn’t physically prepared for it although I was emotionally prepared for it. I don’t know how but I somehow… no, you know what it is? I do know how: my pattern recognition is really high and I also work with very, very large, multi-simultaneous time signatures. I don’t do the typical five and seven at the same time – which is really difficult, y’know? But I’m doing stuff that is rare. I don’t know who else is doing the 19 and 18 at the same time, 17 and 21 at the same time. Usually it’s very small numbers at the same time. So when Dream Theater tested me I got everything the first time because it was only one thing, it wasn’t even two things at the same time, and it was bars of seven and six and eight and four. That’s really far below what my pattern recognition is capable of, so I was able to be a musician. In other words, it wasn’t technical to me, it was easy. No matter how that sounds, it was, and I was able to do everything the first time they asked me and make music with it. I’m still doing that to this day with them. It was a liberation of the spirit. Y’know, today the word ‘liberal’ has been completely perverted. A lot of words are perverted. ‘Choice’ doesn’t mean ‘choice,’ it means someone else is making a choice who doesn’t get a choice. People don’t look up what words mean, and the word ‘liberal’ used to mean liberation of the spirit, not liberation of the human, like human nature: “Don’t tell me what to do, don’t tell me who to sleep with.” The original word is very religious in nature and it has to do with spiritual liberation. Get away from human nature and move toward who you should be as a person fulfilling all these gifts you’ve been given. And for me it was a true liberation. And I know that’s a lengthy explanation and you’ll have to squelch my words down into one sentence instead of five sentences, but I want you to know what I mean. So for me, getting that phone call, getting that opportunity, it was liberating for my spirit, because I had set up a drum set but had nobody that let me play my drums. Really, really let me go, y’know? It was great with Vai. I was able to be a bit more myself but I was also working for Steve. And what made me really happy working for Steve was that his ideas were things that turned me on. For example, Vai was one of the few people that would tell me every note to play sometimes, but I liked that, and that’s why we got along. We got along because I liked what he told me, because he told me unorthodox stuff. And we laughed! We had a lot of humour. We came up with drum parts that were just funny. I don’t mean that it’s funny to hit the seventh note of an 11-note run, but he and I would laugh about it, that I could do it, or that he heard it in his mind. We were a team, we were like soul mates with that stuff. And now with Dream Theater it’s a sense of fulfilment that I’m in a band where there are five of us all moving in the same direction. And that’s why I cried [upon being named new Dream Theater drummer]; because I wanted liberation of the spirit. It’s part of the gifts I’ve been given. It was really emotional for me.
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And as a final shot, here is my own Mike Mangini Top 10 songs list. This I think is the best of the Genie's work so far:
10. Incantation (https://youtu.be/6kG1biIdmLU)
9. Surrender to Reason (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H3PrvhQoC74)
8. Demon Dance (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Vs3Zyx6DNE)
7. Crucify (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7FXeNerHg8)
6. Bangkok + Fire Garden Suite (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNqdk2z-6Xo)
5. Bridges in the Sky
4. Alone (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRP_MgMCIao)
3. Chasing the High (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFUnIsNteSs)
2. Egg Zooming (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXcbXZ_H9BA)
1. Illumination Theory (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fFMDGSWhHbo)
Hoping for much more excellent work ahead with Dream Theater!
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Thank you, this was enormously fun. A thread for the ages. :clap:
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Thank you, this was enormously fun. A thread for the ages. :clap:
Should have done this earlier but better late than never.
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Thank you, this was enormously fun. A thread for the ages. :clap:
Should have done this earlier but better late than never.
Been lurking for quite some time here.... this thread made me need to register just to say thank you for a fantastic summation of Mangini's work up until DT
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Thank you, this was enormously fun. A thread for the ages. :clap:
Should have done this earlier but better late than never.
Been lurking for quite some time here.... this thread made me need to register just to say thank you for a fantastic summation of Mangini's work up until DT
Thanks. :)
Sharing a recently uploaded English version of an interview with Mangini in Spain back in 2013. I like his story about the audition and his years as a software engineer. :)
https://youtube.com/watch?v=Vl1Tq5hkNXo
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^ The part where he says he can't bear people who are late.
That drives me nuts too. Being late once or twice is ok but people who are consistently late every time - there's no excuse for that.
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The intro to Detonation (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qx7iGH8FS2c) is really cool also.
I thought the most interesting part was that Mike switched to classic grip. Didn't know he does that.
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His WFD record also includes traditional grip.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHqfJFl_qzM
His fast drumming part in his solos almost always are with traditional grip.
His fastest though is not in traditional grip.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7TzWrKso4I
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Akoezeof8XY
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Intersting recent upload.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QQD7qvPzi1U
:tup
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Fucking Portrait Videos
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This vid surfaced just recently. A young Mangini doing a Steve Vai demo. Toms are still traditional set-up.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=k3-g0BKtPeE
The hair!
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This vid surfaced just recently. A young Mangini doing a Steve Vai demo. Toms are still traditional set-up.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=k3-g0BKtPeE
The hair!
I love Here and Now and MM's performance is wow! "Take one"?!? :o
B.Lee
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This vid surfaced just recently. A young Mangini doing a Steve Vai demo. Toms are still traditional set-up.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=k3-g0BKtPeE
The hair!
Fantastic watch... Thanks for sharing!
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Intersting recent upload.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QQD7qvPzi1U
:tup
I think that's from the Drum Fantasy Camp that went on recently. If so then that's Chrissi Poland (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RS5RsSPssw) on vocals, James Genus on bass, Vinny Valention on guitar and Stu Mindeman on keys. That camp was amazing, Steve Smith, Mike Mangini, Dave Weckl, Benny Greb and Jojo Mayer. Crazy line-up!
Btw great thread!
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Interesting new post from Mike Mangini:
"Do you have a friend that just doesn't 'get' Prog Music when the music gets rhythmically crazy? Know anybody that says Prog is "not musical? or "doesn't groove mannn?" It is because they can't process it in order to even have an opinion that they "like it or not." It is like they're trying to get online with no browser software on their computer. Proof is in THE quote of the century that says one HAS to learn polyrhythms to wire up in order to process, which will be EASY for us in the seminars:
"... This would indicate that activation of BA47 is specific to polyrhythm, rather than to the origin of this tension (the stimulus or the task)."
It means humans HAVE TO WIRE UP WITH POLYRHYTHMS OR THE AREA DOESN'T WORK SO A PERSON CAN PROCESS WHAT THEY'RE HEARING. No wonder they say, "I just don't' like it." Derrrrrrrrrrrrr... What else would they say? What they don't like is the feeling of not knowing, not the music. It all makes sense melodically, so they can't say it isn't melodic. The "grooves" happen to be 11/16 for example, but that IS THE GROOVE. Just because it isn't neanderthal 4/4/ all the time means it is a different groove with NO swing, not NO groove. So If you have a friend that you'd like to enjoy Dream Theater in the craziest moments, then explain a rhythm or two, make them count it out. There are rhythms I put in the last two albums that I don't feel people are picking up on with a couple of the craziest ones of all coming up on our next release. Too many people want fast food music, which I do sometimes too, but to not be able to enjoy most of the World's most deep music is just sad and it is for no good reason except that most of us just don't know how we work. Spread the word! There's hope for all. It is NEVER too late to make connections!!"
Then he links to the scientific article on polyrhythms:
https://www.petervuust.dk/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/Tapping-polyrhythms-in-music-activates-language-areas.pdf
:metal :metal :metal
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That quote is one of the worst thing a drummer of a band I like could say. What the actual fuck?? I like polyrhythms. I listen to a lot of music with polyrhythms in it and use it frequently in my own writing, but saying something like this is just wrong. This quote actually upsets me.
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I've actually witnessed Mangini get steadily more and more ....arrogant is the wrong word....but outspoken about his abilities since joining the band.
When he first joined it was all " Oh wow - what an opportunity - thank you so much - i won't let you down "
to this.
And yeah - like Blob said in the other thread - whenever he talks about drumming - it's just numbers. Like his drumming comes from the head and not the heart.
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Like his drumming comes from the head and not the heart.
That's silly, and one of the lamest arguments people usually use against progressive music (ironically, that quote mentions that). If I can relate emotionally to complex progressive metal music like Periphery and Animals as Leaders, I can find the heart in that (and I do). I have no doubts that Mangini plays from the heart, because he's doing what he likes the most in the world each and every night in front of thousands. How's that not coming from the heart? The man is a scientist (he used to be a software programmer), so of course he's going to have a theoretical and very methodical approach to his craft; but that doesn't take any heart out of his playing IMO.
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But apparently it makes him a douche.
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I've actually witnessed Mangini get steadily more and more ....arrogant is the wrong word....but outspoken about his abilities since joining the band.
I consider that a good thing. It could lead to him feeling more comfortable with showing his musical ideas to the band.
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What's wrong about the quote? He's reporting a scientific finding, which supports the technique that he uses in teaching drums. Which basically says that to get the groove in polyrhythm, your mind has to be wired to hear that groove. It is not something that a lot of us are wired to hear because we have been trained to listen to 4/4, 3/4, and 2/4. He's basically just saying that he has a technique to help you wire the brain so that you can hear the polurhythmic groove.
I remember that I have this colleague of mine, who found what I am listening to weird and something she can not jive to. What I did is I played Hand.Cannot.Erase (the song) and counted it out to her. When she finally heard the rhythm, she copied my music files to her phone and Steven Wilson is now in her regular rotation. I also got her to listen to some DT. She enjoyed counting fown with me the decreasing time sigs in Breaking All Illusions.
That's basically what Mike is saying. Hearing the groove in polyrhythms or in odd time signatures takes getting used to. Why people would read arrogance into that speaks more about the reader than Mike himself.
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But apparently it makes him a douche.
Yikes, that seems super harsh. It seemed like he was just passionately expressing his finding on a topic he cares deeply about.
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Like his drumming comes from the head and not the heart.
That's silly, and one of the lamest arguments people usually use against progressive music (ironically, that quote mentions that). If I can relate emotionally to complex progressive metal music like Periphery and Animals as Leaders, I can find the heart in that (and I do). I have no doubts that Mangini plays from the heart, because he's doing what he likes the most in the world each and every night in front of thousands. How's that not coming from the heart? The man is a scientist (he used to be a software programmer), so of course he's going to have a theoretical and very methodical approach to his craft; but that doesn't take any heart out of his playing IMO.
Great post, I totally agree. Also, isn't Mike's post actually about this specific misunderstanding? If your perception is not trained, what you perceive will not match the true form of what you are witnessing (with "true form" meaning how it was originally conceived). Feelings you get from something are totally depending by the way you look (or don't look) at that something. Like when you see movies with a medieval setting and you think that is the actual way they did fight - and even feel thrilled by those extrafake duels xD After learning historic swordsfighting myself, I can just shake my head when I see those same movies again! Do we still listen to each and every band we used to dig when we were younger? I don't think so, our perception is dynamic, it changes as time passes by and we learn more things, we live different experiences, we acquire new perspectives, we feel different emotions, we develop different states of mind.
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About the head versus heart comment...the context of the post is that it was directed to people who might want to attend his clinics. If your perception is that music comes purely from the heart, then it is something you can not teach. What Mike is saying is that we can actually learn music, because we can wire our brains to learn it. That is the essence of his The Grid system.
The actual elitists are those who insist that music is purely heart, no head, because it implies that it can not be taught, it can not be learned.
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I love that he openly addresses the most critiqued part of his drumming. It comes from being criticized so much on his groove, he feels like he has to explain what his groove is and why it's difficult for people to relate to. He's defending his work, which is commendable.
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It's a pretty bad statement to make nonetheless. Good prog never was just an exercise in numbers. It used the numbers as a tool, but they weren't the means to their own end.
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So where in this statement did he say that prog is just about numbers? He did NOT say that.
What he said is that some people can not get into prog because they can not understand the rhythm. How does that translate into prog is just about numbers?
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So where in this statement did he say that prog is just about numbers? He did NOT say that.
What he said is that some people can not get into prog because they can not understand the rhythm. How does that translate into prog is just about numbers?
I was referencing something Blob said about him talking about drumming and he talks mostly in numbers.
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What he said is that some people can not get into prog because they can not understand the rhythm. How does that translate into prog is just about numbers?
What he really said if you actually look at how he phrased it was that people who don't completely understand the rhythms aren't allowed to have an opinion on whether they like it or not. To that I say "shut the fuck up".
Honestly, what he said is just like when some newb comes on here and says "if you don't like this thing that I like, that just means you don't understand it". That always annoys the shit out of me. Professionals on this level should really be above that. THAT'S my main problem with this quote. I'm not doubting anything about the science here, that's all fine. But how this guy says it is just bad and condescending.
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I don't think he's saying that the people who don't completely understand the rhythms aren't allowed to have an opinion on whether they like it or not. What he's saying is that they probably would feel otherwise if they took the time to actually listen to the music past the first, immediate impression. I don't see how you can read that as being condescending.
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I don't get why that quote is upsetting some people. It reads like a pamphlet, describing a good article that ties into his The Grid.
It is sad though when people would just rather stay with their usual, than to explore and discover theirs more beauty.
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From MM's Facebook:
These comments are fantastic!! Just what I'd hope to see! Of course, I did not mean anything negative about 4/4 ! I thought I was transparent, but one should never assume! So Sorry but it is funny if anyone though that I did because "Neanderthal" evokes images of a caveman trying to play a beat, which is slightly funny, and actually really cool to me if he means it and is trying to say something without "knowing a thing." This would also occur while not knowing the universe of fun and happiness that can be put within the confines of 4/4, including the impossible task of even copying somebody else's signature sound within it. That's the point... explore what can be done within one beat, never mind and odd string, or odd phrase of them. New DT early next year I'm expecting. I know the guys have said this in interviews. Still looks good. And yes... some of my best fun is within a 4/4 frame-work... there just might a 25:7 somewhere that is the perfect, emotional drum fill where playing 24 notes, or normal triplets, just doesn't do it. Forge on everybody !!! Enjoy the talk !!
He isn't saying 4/4 is inherently worse than more complex rhythms, but that it is such a common time signature that we are all very familiar and that it'd be cool to get into the feel of more strange things like a 11/16 groove to be more open to exotic rhythms and new possibilities (yet also acknowledging that 4/4 covers a very wide area). At least that's what I can get from that. Dream Theater, alongside other bands that Mike has been in, have played in 4/4 above all other time signatures anyway so it would definitely be hypocritical of him to trash it.
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He wasn't being arrogant at all. He was just letting you know he's on a higher level than you. He's up nyare and you're down nyare ... maybe nyarrrre. Screw you guys. He's going home.
He just stepped in it. That's all. Still need to get The Grid DVDs (or whatever other format is offered).
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He's up nyare and you're down nyare ... maybe nyarrrre. Screw you guys. He's going home.
Which episode is that? I can hear Cartman's voice in my head, but I can't put my finger on the episode.
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What he said is that some people can not get into prog because they can not understand the rhythm. How does that translate into prog is just about numbers?
What he really said if you actually look at how he phrased it was that people who don't completely understand the rhythms aren't allowed to have an opinion on whether they like it or not. To that I say "shut the fuck up".
Where did he say that opinions to like or not like a polyrhythm are not ALLOWED for people who dod not completely understand the rhythm? He did NOT say that. What he said, and I will quote:
MM forwards a hypothesis that "a friend that just doesn't 'get' Prog Music when the music gets rhythmically crazy" most likely "can't process it in order to even have an opinion that they "like it [ the music] or not.""[/i] because scientific studies have shown that " humans HAVE TO WIRE UP WITH POLYRHYTHMS OR THE AREA DOESN'T WORK SO A PERSON CAN PROCESS WHAT THEY'RE HEARING." When people who are not wired to tap the BA47 sector of their brains say that they do not like the music rhythmically when they hear polyrhythms, MM's hypothesis is that "what they don't like is the feeling of not knowing" what they are hearing, "not the music" in itself. Hearing polyrhythms musically does not come naturally for a lot of us because "one HAS to learn polyrhythms to wire up in order to process", so somebody who is not wired up would most likely opine ""I just don't' like it." Derrrrrrrrrrrrr... What else would they say?"
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So where in this statement did he say that prog is just about numbers? He did NOT say that.
What he said is that some people can not get into prog because they can not understand the rhythm. How does that translate into prog is just about numbers?
I was referencing something Blob said about him talking about drumming and he talks mostly in numbers.
Where is this reference? I am just curious because you bring it up in this thread and I do not have an idea what you are talking about.
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He's up nyare and you're down nyare ... maybe nyarrrre. Screw you guys. He's going home.
Which episode is that? I can hear Cartman's voice in my head, but I can't put my finger on the episode.
I don't recall the exact episode. I'm thinking it was either when he bragged about getting his pubes or getting his period.
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So where in this statement did he say that prog is just about numbers? He did NOT say that.
What he said is that some people can not get into prog because they can not understand the rhythm. How does that translate into prog is just about numbers?
I was referencing something Blob said about him talking about drumming and he talks mostly in numbers.
Where is this reference? I am just curious because you bring it up in this thread and I do not have an idea what you are talking about.
MM is a big proponent of "The Grid", which is essentially all numbers, and JP himself has said about MM that music is math to MM.
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On top of that, MM also said that himself during the Q&A call they did for DTF.
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MM is a big proponent of "The Grid", which is essentially all numbers, and JP himself has said about MM that music is math to MM.
To be fair, I've also heard JR (and maybe JP) talk about how musical MM is.
I don't have a problem with MM analyzing beats with a mathematical mind. Although, let's be fair. This is rudimentary math. It isn't really about how complex the equation is, but hopefully the end result. Case in point, the Learning to Live intro is full of neat little numbers thing that translates to very interesting music. JP is mathing off KM and MP is mathing off them both. And I love every second of it. It is extremely musical.
The problem is MM should have asked for somebody to read that post before he sent it, because it did come off pretty condescending. But he owned up to it, so ... next.
I bet if MM did what MP did and have tons of easily accessible and promoted videos of him breaking down his DT drum tracks, he'd grow his fan base (or at least strengthen what is already there). Haven't read all of this thread, but it is probably what MM needs to do. Maybe he already is, but the general DT fan base seem unaware of it if he is.
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What he said is that some people can not get into prog because they can not understand the rhythm. How does that translate into prog is just about numbers?
What he really said if you actually look at how he phrased it was that people who don't completely understand the rhythms aren't allowed to have an opinion on whether they like it or not. To that I say "shut the fuck up".
Honestly, what he said is just like when some newb comes on here and says "if you don't like this thing that I like, that just means you don't understand it". That always annoys the shit out of me. Professionals on this level should really be above that. THAT'S my main problem with this quote. I'm not doubting anything about the science here, that's all fine. But how this guy says it is just bad and condescending.
Well for one thing, it's very likely this comes from him feeling the need to defend himself from all the endless accusations and assumptions about groove and whatnot. Also, he's not saying they're not allowed to have an opinion, but if they're going to write something off before they understand it, then it's going to be a fairly ignorant opinion. And really, the only way I could possibly imagine his post seeming offensive, is if you think he's talking about you.
I'm not sure what you mean about professionalism here, but isn't this that how it works: if I don't like this thing you like, then I simply don't understand it in the same way as YOU do. I might have a conception about why I think some people like it, and I can describe why I don't like it. But really, I shouldn't be pretending that I "understand" it.
I dunno, lets bring up say, rap music. I can appreciate aspects of it, the writing and wordplay, the rhythm, but as a whole, I don't understand it on the level of those who are passionate about it. I mean, lets say there's a generic pop song that I'm describing and writing off, if I think I understand it (and the emotional responses of all the people who feel something from it) then I'm kind of arrogantly invalidating the experiences of those who connect with it on an emotional level beyond the conceptual level that I have.
And then there's the inversion of this (the side MM is defending) where people write things off because they've formulated a conception after they didn't feel anything from it (not musical, too technical etc.) and then assume they've sufficiently accurately described the situation all the while completely invalidating the views of those that would claim otherwise.
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And really, the only way I could possibly imagine his post seeming offensive, is if you think he's talking about you.
No, I think complicated rhythms are awesome. Specifically, I love polyrhythms, and have no real trouble understanding them.
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New video about the Rhythm Seminars: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HOGVXnfJO2U
It seems really odd to see him holding a guitar.
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He is using a John Petrucci 7-string! And the poor guitar when he was tapping the pick on it! :lol
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So where in this statement did he say that prog is just about numbers? He did NOT say that.
What he said is that some people can not get into prog because they can not understand the rhythm. How does that translate into prog is just about numbers?
I was referencing something Blob said about him talking about drumming and he talks mostly in numbers.
Where is this reference? I am just curious because you bring it up in this thread and I do not have an idea what you are talking about.
MM is a big proponent of "The Grid", which is essentially all numbers, and JP himself has said about MM that music is math to MM.
What? The Grid is not about numbers. The Grid is about Method, not Math.
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He is using a John Petrucci 7-string! And the poor guitar when he was tapping the pick on it! :lol
Holy Crap when he tapped on the body with the pick. :o :o If he was a guitarist - his downbeats would be insane.
He could probably downpick that " flight of the bumblebee " section at the start of All Nightmare Long... :lol
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New video about the Rhythm Seminars: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HOGVXnfJO2U
I'm not really getting what he is trying to teach other than binary?
0000 0000 0000 0000 = 1st combination (don't play a single 16th note)
0000 0000 0000 0001 = 2nd combination (play the last 16th note only)
I don't think people practice that way. If anything, you just practice the one beat
0000
0001
0010
0011
0100
etc or
2^4 = 16 combinations of a beat divided into 4.
It is kind of why they group the 16th notes together. So you can see a 4 note pattern instead 16 different notes. And that is of course just rhythmic. Doesn't take into account the sync to the left hand and sync to the string.
Is this some paid seminar he's promoting? I always like the take on music from different instrumentalists.
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Yes, it's a series of classes in Europe on rhythm, open to all instrumentalists.
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IE " how to play like a robot and not from the soul ".
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It's a vague term, but I think that basically every competent musician can "play from the soul", with "feel" or "groove" (ew). Mangini is on the next level, his approach is unique, technical and interesting, I wouldn't put him down for being precise, technical and math-oriented. Watching him play, either solos or with DT, is incredibly entertaining, that's where it all boils down to.
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He is a great guy and kudos for teaching himself all that stuff. He sounds great when playing with the band but whenever he solos I am bored rigid.
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IE " how to play like a robot and not from the soul ".
Or "you can actually learn this stuff, it can be taught, it's not some elitist bullshit by people who claim that you can only play from some mystical mumbo jumbo residing within yourself"
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::) Yeah fuck playing with any feel. It's all about how fast you can play 64th notes at 240BPM.
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::) Yeah fuck playing with any feel. It's all about how fast you can play 64th notes at 240BPM.
I don't get this, MM has never taken that attitude. 'Feel' and 'soul' don't really exist anyway and surely practicing something to a high level makes performing stuff that 'comes from the heart' (another vague and hollow term) so much more easy and natural. Why does passionate investment and methodical technicality have to be seperated? It's completely fine if people don't like MM's style or approach to music, but to argue that he doesn't play with any emotion would just be false.
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Feel definitely exists. It's the difference between playing a rigid 4/4 beat with perfectly even 16ths on the hi hat and the bass drum smack bang on the 1 and the snare on 3 with exactly the
same velocity every single hit like a machine.
Or you could play it like the intro to " When The Levee Breaks ".
Not saying Mangini couldn't play like Bonham - but yes there definitely is such a thing as feel.
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Feel definitely exists. It's the difference between playing a rigid 4/4 beat with perfectly even 16ths on the hi hat and the bass drum smack bang on the 1 and the snare on 3 with exactly the
same velocity every single hit like a machine.
Or you could play it like the intro to " When The Levee Breaks ".
Not saying Mangini couldn't play like Bonham - but yes there definitely is such a thing as feel.
Isn't everyone be playing with feel then? No drummer, not even MM, plays absolutely perfectly in time to the nanosecond or plays each hit (unless quantised) played at an even volume (unless triggered) and that was never even his goal. If you define 'feel' that way, then the attribute is useless as it applies to any living thing. Even if it's applied less strictly, like say with people playing with a loose edge, I'd say that he definitely shows it in videos like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNbWz-yFl_0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFsomDtZpfw
Even if you find them boring (as I do, I don't generally find drum solos entertaining unless it's Neal Peart and only him), there are some really cool grooves in there with usage of enough dynamics and syncopation to make for the typical sound of a drummer with 'feel' (like Bonham).
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Hasn't MM explicitly stated that he trained himself to hit every drum with the exact same velocity ?
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What he does in some polish clinic is fine, but what I care about is how he sounds with the band, on the albums, and so far he has either done okay (ADToE) or disappointed gravely (DT12). Now, whether that's his fault or not is another matter, and one I'm not overly interested in as long as he improves in the future.
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What he does in some polish clinic is fine, but what I care about is how he sounds with the band, on the albums, and so far he has either done okay (ADToE) or disappointed gravely (DT12). Now, whether that's his fault or not is another matter, and one I'm not overly interested in as long as he improves in the future.
Agree 100%. The whole team needs to get the drum and cymbal sounds right on #13. I won't buy it unless I know for sure it's vastly
superior to the last 2.
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Hasn't MM explicitly stated that he trained himself to hit every drum with the exact same velocity ?
Yes, but it's about control. Training himself to do things like that can lead him to play in a dynamic way when appropriate, but when playing full-on metal, he can get consistently powerful hits. There's nothing wrong with that.
What he does in some polish clinic is fine, but what I care about is how he sounds with the band, on the albums, and so far he has either done okay (ADToE) or disappointed gravely (DT12). Now, whether that's his fault or not is another matter, and one I'm not overly interested in as long as he improves in the future.
I remember MM expressing disappointment at the sound of his kit in an interview I can't seem to track down right now. It was something to do with JP wanting a very specific sound at the time and MM and Rick Chychi being happy to follow along with it. I have a feeling that sonically, DT13 will be an improvement over the last two and MM will be able to shine.
I won't buy it unless I know for sure it's vastly superior to the last 2.
But surely even if it wasn't an improvement, the actual music matters above all, right?
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Feel definitely exists. It's the difference between playing a rigid 4/4 beat with perfectly even 16ths on the hi hat and the bass drum smack bang on the 1 and the snare on 3 with exactly the
same velocity every single hit like a machine.
Or you could play it like the intro to " When The Levee Breaks ".
Not saying Mangini couldn't play like Bonham - but yes there definitely is such a thing as feel.
Well yeah, playing with "feeling" exists, but it's a pretty vague term and probably means a few things. Also if playing something less precise is part of feeling then really that's the just the human element to it right? I think playing with "soul" or "feeling" could also mean playing with sincerity, with passion. Furthermore, trying to figure this stuff out in a theoretical way is sometimes part of that passion or drive to appreciate or even integrate these things in different ways.
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I won't buy it unless I know for sure it's vastly superior to the last 2.
But surely even if it wasn't an improvement, the actual music matters above all, right?
Bad sound kills good music. I think there's an okay song beneath the mess of The Bigger Picture's awful production, but I never listen to it anymore because whenever I do I just get frustrated by how bad it sounds.
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^word. That's the biggest problem I have with DT12.
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Yeah! I realize it when I am listening to some other DT album and switch to a DT12 track. I m like WTF just happened!
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The higher quality tracks really do help with the sound. I mean, it's still not great, but it's much better than the CD.
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Most recent MM interview here in Rome
https://soundcloud.com/radiorock106e6/intervista-con-mike-mangini-dream-theater-interview-with-mike-mangini-dream-theater
Sorry it's pretty long with lots of intermissions in Italian as they have to translate (sometimes translation into English is cut). But some bits are very interesting, eg what he reveals at the end about how "Enigma Machine" came to life...
He went for that masterclass in the same school not far from where I live and where my daughter had singing classes until June...
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Favorite Mike Mangini reply so far to Facebooknposters who kept on posting their preference for MP on MM's own FB page:
"Gentlemen: the Punch from my kit goes into the vocal mic 40 feet away and distorts my overhead mics. You just can't hear it. The feel and dynamics are all there underneath a lot of huge stereo music tracks; more than ever in DT history. How about you all: Can you just actually slow down and learn just 3 songs I did as opposed to you learning 25 years of Mike P's drumming? I learn his stuff like you guys. I like it like you guys. I don't like change either sometimes, but learn Just 3 ... Please? Try slowing down and learning Angels (but crank the 4K so you can hear the ride parts) and Surrender to Reason (so you can hear the tuplets and apex tom stuff etc. and the Gift of Music (when it follows the unison melodies in the outtro.) Just 3 songs guys ! Write it out. Try it. You'll never accept what we do unless you hear what's happening at 60%. what's going on near zero celcius is really is a lot of fun. Why do think I'm smiling all the time?"
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DT fandom is just complete shit sometimes.
MP's FB page is filled with "come back at DT" and that stuff, which I'm sure makes MP feel a little bad, like they don't give a damn or just don't appreciate what he does, and MM's page is filled with comments regarding his showoffs and that, saying that MP was better and that.
Can't you guys just have a little respect?
Real drummers with real skills that can cover both their songs don't attack them or deliver criticism, they appreciate what they do.
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This is one of the worst comments when MM just changed his profile pic (where he is shown balancing his new signature drumsticks on his finger):
"Did "they" update "their" profile picture because "he" is somehow "more than" just himself? Portnoy makes you look like a wannabe. I'm truly impressed by your ability to balance a stick on your finger. "
Guy tried to recant later saying he had too much to drink when he posted.
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One of MM's recent FB updates is an edited version of a drum solo in a Zildjian clinic he did a year ago. Love the notes he inserted. A lot of the stuff are meant to showcase skills to the drummers who are in the clinic. The 23/16 over seven is insane. :lol
https://youtu.be/QV_n5ftPT_4
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DT fandom is just complete shit sometimes.
MP's FB page is filled with "come back at DT" and that stuff, which I'm sure makes MP feel a little bad, like they don't give a damn or just don't appreciate what he does, and MM's page is filled with comments regarding his showoffs and that, saying that MP was better and that.
Can't you guys just have a little respect?
Real drummers with real skills that can cover both their songs don't attack them or deliver criticism, they appreciate what they do.
Yeah, +1. Some people can't let go, grow up or even think for themselves.
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Mike Mangini plays TEI on a reduced kit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDTYWwqchhQ
:metal :metal :metal :metal :metal
I think he might be my favourite drummer. Theres just so much energy there.
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That TEI video is fantastic and I wish MM did more videos like this, or they included multitracks for each album like for BCSL, because it reallyshows what each person is doing very clearly.
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I don't follow a lot of musicians on FB, but looking at Mangini's page just now, and reading his replies to some of the inane comments directed his way, he really is class personified. It's always fun to be a fan of a musician who is a good guy and always handles everything with grace. :tup :tup
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I don't follow a lot of musicians on FB, but looking at Mangini's page just now, and reading his replies to some of the inane comments directed his way, he really is class personified. It's always fun to be a fan of a musician who is a good guy and always handles everything with grace. :tup :tup
I totally agree, and it's sad how many negative comments he gets. Regardless of who someone may like more, I would think it'd be pretty obvious that MP, with the attitude and personality that he has, has done a lot more to deserve negative comments than MM, who just seems very hard-working, passionate and respectful. I don't get it. I'm not saying people should go attack MP instead but hopefully it makes sense.
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Mike Mangini plays TEI on a reduced kit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDTYWwqchhQ
:metal :metal :metal :metal :metal
I think he might be my favourite drummer. Theres just so much energy there.
Would love to see that kit with Dream Theater. I think you can see more clearly what he is playing.
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I don't follow a lot of musicians on FB, but looking at Mangini's page just now, and reading his replies to some of the inane comments directed his way, he really is class personified. It's always fun to be a fan of a musician who is a good guy and always handles everything with grace. :tup :tup
I totally agree, and it's sad how many negative comments he gets. Regardless of who someone may like more, I would think it'd be pretty obvious that MP, with the attitude and personality that he has, has done a lot more to deserve negative comments than MM, who just seems very hard-working, passionate and respectful. I don't get it. I'm not saying people should go attack MP instead but hopefully it makes sense.
That's social media, where people love to act like jackasses, for ya.
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Mike Mangini plays TEI on a reduced kit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDTYWwqchhQ
:metal :metal :metal :metal :metal
I think he might be my favourite drummer. Theres just so much energy there.
What the hell was that at 4:57!? :lol
Anyway, it was awesome :metal
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What the hell was that at 4:57!? :lol
Anyway, it was awesome :metal
Damn, I only just realised that he is doing that bit with one hand. :omg:
Had to rewind a few times there to try to take that in.
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My favourite thing Mike does in that song is the unison fill going into the final solo. Except he doesn't throw in the bass drums in the second half.
Builds tension for the solo.
:tup
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Mike Mangini plays TEI on a reduced kit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDTYWwqchhQ
:metal :metal :metal :metal :metal
I think he might be my favourite drummer. Theres just so much energy there.
THANKS for this. So energy, powah!
Memes aside, that fast part on the ride symbol after the intro is just so great. The whole thing, wow.
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MUCH more fun & interesting watching him play to DT songs than sit through any of his drum solos where it's all just technical exercises and rudiments.
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MUCH more fun & interesting watching him play to DT songs than sit through any of his drum solos where it's all just technical exercises and rudiments.
Well, his drum solos are directed at drummers in a drum clinic so it is supposed to be technical.
For his drum solos in DT shows, he makes them very musical with themes and catchy patterns.
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For his drum solos in DT shows, he makes them very musical with themes and catchy patterns.
I've always liked his DT solos. They can be technical but also very melodic and musical.
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MUCH more fun & interesting watching him play to DT songs than sit through any of his drum solos where it's all just technical exercises and rudiments.
While his solos are extremely technical, they are very enjoyable, well constructed and quite musical. Quite the difference compared to MP's solos which were boring and very repetitive.
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That video of TEI was fantastic!
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All he needs is the octobans and he could probably use that kit quite happily for DT.
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I'm so envious of amphibious drummers...
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I'm so envious of amphibious drummers...
Definitely! Playing drums under water is a dream of mine.
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I'm so envious of amphibious drummers...
Definitely! Playing drums under water is a dream of mine.
:mehlin :rollin :mehlin :rollin
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I hope that was an intentional error since I've seen a thing on twitter where a newspaper basically made the same error.
Hoping it was a subtle reference to that.
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I'm so envious of amphibious drummers...
Definitely! Playing drums under water is a dream of mine.
He can play for LIQUID tension experiment :neverusethis:
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I'm so envious of amphibious drummers...
Definitely! Playing drums under water is a dream of mine.
He can play for LIQUID tension experiment :neverusethis:
:splodetard:
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I hope that was an intentional error since I've seen a thing on twitter where a newspaper basically made the same error.
Hoping it was a subtle reference to that.
of course, and now you ruined the joke.
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I'm so envious of amphibious drummers...
Definitely! Playing drums under water is a dream of mine.
He can play for LIQUID tension experiment :neverusethis:
On the next tour they'll have Mike play in giant aquarium. And the highlight of the show will happen when the water breaks :neverusethis:
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I hope that was an intentional error since I've seen a thing on twitter where a newspaper basically made the same error.
Hoping it was a subtle reference to that.
of course, and now you ruined the joke.
No i made you not look like a silly billy ! :neverusethis:
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On the next tour they'll have Mike play in giant aquarium. And the highlight of the show will happen when the water breaks :neverusethis:
No joke but when my bro and I were in Kotow - we always thought - if we ever made it huge - to have a huge tank of water behind us for the gig and after teh encore - it dumps the water and we all jsut get washed off stage :lol
It would be so funny.
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For his drum solos in DT shows, he makes them very musical with themes and catchy patterns.
I've always liked his DT solos. They can be technical but also very melodic and musical.
Exactly! I rarely like drums solos but Mike makes them incredibly melodic while still showing off his insane talent.
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Mike Mangini plays TEI on a reduced kit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDTYWwqchhQ
:metal :metal :metal :metal :metal
I think he might be my favourite drummer. Theres just so much energy there.
Does not play with any dynamics? Just full of technique and not musical? Not good in composing cymbal parts? Has no groove in playing? Plays like a robot, very lifeless?
ALL DISPROVEN IN THE VIDEO.
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Mike Mangini plays TEI on a reduced kit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDTYWwqchhQ
:metal :metal :metal :metal :metal
I think he might be my favourite drummer. Theres just so much energy there.
Does not play with any dynamics? Just full of technique and not musical? Not good in composing cymbal parts? Has no groove in playing? Plays like a robot, very lifeless?
ALL DISPROVEN IN THE VIDEO.
You know what? I've been very critical of MM's "robotic" playing as of late, BUT seeing this clip might reconcile me with the guy, especially his cymbal and double bass work (which I've laways found excellent by the way albeit sometimes too "metal").
B.Lee
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Mike Mangini plays TEI on a reduced kit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDTYWwqchhQ
:metal :metal :metal :metal :metal
I think he might be my favourite drummer. Theres just so much energy there.
Does not play with any dynamics? Just full of technique and not musical? Not good in composing cymbal parts? Has no groove in playing? Plays like a robot, very lifeless?
ALL DISPROVEN IN THE VIDEO.
You know what? I've been very critical of MM's "robotic" playing as of late, BUT seeing this clip might reconcile me with the guy, especially his cymbal and double bass work (which I've laways found excellent by the way albeit sometimes too "metal").
B.Lee
It's really the production. Listen to the past songs he played in that I detailed in this thread. He never sounded robotic or lacking any dynamics before joining DT. Best examples are Egg Zooming, his work with Vai, Mullmuzzler II, and Elements of Persuasion. Hearing him in BTFW also showed that he is very dynamic. Something just get lost in the studio.
I already find some problems in TGOM. The cymbals are still too low in the mix for me.
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Mike Mangini plays TEI on a reduced kit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDTYWwqchhQ
:metal :metal :metal :metal :metal
I think he might be my favourite drummer. Theres just so much energy there.
Does not play with any dynamics? Just full of technique and not musical? Not good in composing cymbal parts? Has no groove in playing? Plays like a robot, very lifeless?
ALL DISPROVEN IN THE VIDEO.
You know what? I've been very critical of MM's "robotic" playing as of late, BUT seeing this clip might reconcile me with the guy, especially his cymbal and double bass work (which I've laways found excellent by the way albeit sometimes too "metal").
B.Lee
It's really the production. Listen to the past songs he played in that I detailed in this thread. He never sounded robotic or lacking any dynamics before joining DT. Best examples are Egg Zooming, his work with Vai, Mullmuzzler II, and Elements of Persuasion. Hearing him in BTFW also showed that he is very dynamic. Something just get lost in the studio.
I already find some problems in TGOM. The cymbals are still too low in the mix for me.
Oh, I hope I didn't sound as if I just had discovered MM, because it isn't the case. In fact, I've known him since Extreme's Waiting for the Punchline. I've listened to a lot of his work , EoP being probably my favorite of his. Yet, I felt that he had lost something recently, that something which had made me very happy to hear he had joined DT, my all-time favorite band. Yes, I'm beginning to think it might be a production issue after all.
B.Lee
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Oh, I hope I didn't sound as if I just had discovered MM, because it isn't the case. In fact, I've known him since Extreme's Waiting for the Punchline. I've listened to a lot of his work , EoP being probably my favorite of his. Yet, I felt that he had lost something recently, that something which had made me very happy to hear he had joined DT, my all-time favorite band. Yes, I'm beginning to think it might be a production issue after all.
B.Lee
These videos are what convinced me that the DT studio albums are not capturing Mangini's sound right. The drumming in these vids are so full of life that nobody could claim that his playing is robotic if they heard these.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCaFBe0QMuk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCaFBe0QMuk
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Oh, I hope I didn't sound as if I just had discovered MM, because it isn't the case. In fact, I've known him since Extreme's Waiting for the Punchline. I've listened to a lot of his work , EoP being probably my favorite of his. Yet, I felt that he had lost something recently, that something which had made me very happy to hear he had joined DT, my all-time favorite band. Yes, I'm beginning to think it might be a production issue after all.
B.Lee
These videos are what convinced me that the DT studio albums are not capturing Mangini's sound right. The drumming in these vids are so full of life that nobody could claim that his playing is robotic if they heard these.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCaFBe0QMuk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCaFBe0QMuk
I thought there were two of those! The first one left me wanting!
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Oh, I hope I didn't sound as if I just had discovered MM, because it isn't the case. In fact, I've known him since Extreme's Waiting for the Punchline. I've listened to a lot of his work , EoP being probably my favorite of his. Yet, I felt that he had lost something recently, that something which had made me very happy to hear he had joined DT, my all-time favorite band. Yes, I'm beginning to think it might be a production issue after all.
B.Lee
These videos are what convinced me that the DT studio albums are not capturing Mangini's sound right. The drumming in these vids are so full of life that nobody could claim that his playing is robotic if they heard these.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCaFBe0QMuk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCaFBe0QMuk
I thought there were two of those! The first one left me wanting!
Yep, the drumming in LNF actually had a lot of danceable beats which got highlighted in the vid. :D
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Great video of The Enemy inside.
I checked out his FaceBook page and was stunned to see him inviting people to comment on his videos as they wish. That shows some confidence right there.
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Like many others, I'm struggling to be drawn in by MM's drumming. I've been trying to pin it down on something (other than the recordings), and I think I have an idea now of at least one aspect: his use of the snare.
Disregarding fills and transitions, the snare almost serves the purpose of a metronome for him, against which he then does fancy stuff on the hihat, ride, whatever. I now listened to TEI and LNF specifically for this so far, and there's precious few instances where the snare doesn't just hit the 1 and the 3 (with the exception of an occasional double time where he hits all four).
My theory is, because the snare is essentially the most prominent drum, I perceive his drumming as simple (beat-wise) with a lot of frills on the side. Combine that with his use of the bass drum (which almost exclusively mirrors JP and JM), I think that might do the trick.
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Just revived this thread because Mike posted an interesting post on Facebook regarding a scientific explanation on why he sometimes seemed robotic. :lol
"This is a "Foot Practice and interesting bits and goals" post that won't work on Twitter, but will on Facebook wink emoticon ...
Today I practiced with two differently set kick pedals near each other. One with springs cranked to work the hamstring area and one with a light touch to increase my stamina and speed approach. Using a felt beater side with DT, I need to crank into the kick drums to get a "snap." We don't use "fast" kick patterns (relative to the truly fast speed metal players,) so I need to suffer in off time to try to make gains in that area. I don't have the live adrenaline, so I'm trying to simulate the need to lay into the strokes.
I do NOT look like I hit as hard as I do live with hands or feet, especially on video- I look like I'm not whacking the drums. I watch me and feel very strange because what I see is NOT what I feel like, nor sound like. People in the first rows can hear my live drums even with the PA, but I look like Neil from Rush often- precise; focussed on almost a robotics approach on strong hits etc. Meaning, I think about my trunk turns, upstrokes and accuracy like my life depends on it trying to repeat similar parts nightly. I'm not a loosy goosy rubbery looking drummer. I don't think he is either, but he hits really, really hard; harder than I thought until I saw him years ago and the toms were moving! Not that I'm the same....not my point; he just an example of the truth of hitting versus the look of a drummer that raises their arms very high. Those hits are not as hard as they appear more often than not science can show.
There's a scientific explanation for this. My hand hitting was measured in Japan by their version of MIT against 600 other drummers. Having multiple electrodes hooked up with sensors on pads, my hits at 18 beats per second registered as harder hit than all the others they measured, even at as little as 4 hits per second. High arm lifting does not require the lat area, which really adds velocity. My measured hitting is due to my using my lat muscle usage in conjunction with the entire upper body right down to my thumb pressure and... 40 years of practicing the upstroke. At 20 & 21 per second, my velocity dropped of course. My feet are not that 'good.' I'm hoping to gain a bit of strength and speed as separate techniques and have some goals during what looks to be a very, very long Astonishing touring cycle. It amazing how two weeks of laziness ruin months of practice isn't it?"
So he really hits harder without much visible physical exertion. I remember that he also explained scientifically why he became an open-handed drummer (his body physique made cross-handed drumming difficult for him).