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Dream Theater => Dream Theater => Topic started by: Train of Naught on June 19, 2015, 10:28:32 AM
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Hello fellow Systematic Chaos lovers/haters, I'm not sure if this has been done before, but I was inspired to discuss this while making my list of all DT studio tracks, because I literally have never seen two different people agree on the same opinion about this record, some love TMOLS, some think it's boring, some say The Dark Eternal Night is the worst track they have ever written, some say it's one of their best metal tracks, and so on..
Let me start off by stating my own opinion (I rank ITPoE as one track, but you may rate them separately if you want to):
7. Repentance: Portnoy called it a breather between all the heavy AA suite tracks, as a standalone track I think it goes on for way too long, I liked the first 2-3 minutes but it went downhill from there, I like it better when I listen to the entire suite.
6. Forsaken: Simple but awesome riff, same goes for the keyboard intro, this was at one time in my top three SC tracks, but because of how standard its structure is, it got less appealing to me after a while.
5. The Dark Eternal Night: Killer song, I love everything start to finish, except for thedreadful backing vocals, it's such a shame, because it could've been one of my favorites easily. Also, this instrumental section is possibly one of the most complex in their discography.
4. Prophets of War: Along with TMOLS, this was the last song from the album that I discovered, and I never appreciated either of them, until I gave them another try. For this song, the main riff is what got me into it, and made the vocals, which I have finally come to appreciate, worth while.
3. Constant Motion: Probably the most popular song from SC among the casual Dream Theater fans, up there with things like OtBoA, a very diverse song, with a great intro, simple but epic pre-chorus, and of course, we got to experience the follow-up of Train of Thoughts LaBrie rap, this time featuring my main man Mr. Mike Portnoy.
2. The Ministry of Lost Souls: Starting off as my least favorite Systematic Chaos track, everything about this is great, from a strong start, to a beautiful soft main guitar riff, some people say the lyrics are cheesy, I think it is an amazing story, but I've got to agree the story progresses pretty slowly and could've been made a lot shorter. But that would've meant less TMOLS, so I'm glad it turned out like this.
1. In the Presence of Enemies: I see a lot of people who couldn't care less if part 2 was completely cut off, but IMO part 2 is better than part 1, like it or not. Althought pt. 1 is amazing, pt. 2 immediately brings this very dark/haunting vibe along with it, and the vocals starting with "angels fall" are probably my favorite off the entire record, not to mention the countless instrumental sections it contains.
I'm excited to see your opinions, don't care if you think it's the worst album Dream Theater has ever brought out or the best, that's pretty much the reason I made this thread.
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Repentance
Prophets of War
Constant Motion
Forsaken
The Dark Eternal Night (the problem with this is the INSANELY LOUD kick drum)
ITPOE part 1
The Ministry of Lost Souls
ITPOE part 2
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7. Prophets of War - I actually like most of the song, but the lyrics and MP's rap section bring it down to one of my bottom 5 DT songs
6. Constant Motion - It has an excellent JP solo, and some cool riffs, but MP's vocals are rather hit or miss.
5. Repentance - Everything up to JP's solo is really good. Everything after it is still good, but goes on for too long. Too repetitive to be engaging
4. Forsaken - Short and sweet. Not much of note, but not much to dislike either.
3. In the Presence of Enemies - Heretic and Slaughter of the Damned are the best parts. Everything else is at least pretty good as well. Top 25
2. The Ministry of Lost Souls - I like everything about this, especially the instrumental section and outro. Top 15
1. The Dark Eternal Night - I love every moment of this song, from the intro to silly verses, catchy chorus, godly instrumental section, and crushing outro. Top 10
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Hater here
8-5 Itpoe 2, TMOLS, dark, forsaken
4. PoW
3. Repentance
2. CM
1. ItPoE pt.1
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7. Prophets of War - One of my least favorite songs in the entire discography and one of only a VERY small number of songs from DT that I genuinely dislike. The chorus riff is pretty tasty, but otherwise, I just do not care for this song at all.
6. The Ministry of Lost Souls - Don't care for it. I HATE to classify any song as "generic DT," but that's what this one feels like. While it does a lot of the things that I like about DT, I don't connect with it at all.
5. Repentence - Brilliant idea. But just doesn't have the repeated listening value. I get what they were going for, and I like it. It just doesn't do it for me. This is one of the very few albums where I skip tracks. The first two listed above always get skipped. With Repentence, it just depends on my mood.
4. The Dark Eternal Night - Great song. Although I get why the instrumental section is so campy sounding, and I think it fits the song and is a neat contrast, that is the only thing that keeps this from being one of the top 3 songs on the album.
3. Constant Motion - This is where it gets difficult to rank these songs, because the remaining 3 are REALLY good. Not only would I put them in the upper echelon of songs from this album, but I would also put them in the upper echelon of DT songs in general. I like pretty much everything about this song. The drumming is absolutely sick and takes center stage. If I had to nitpick (and I do when trying to figure out how to rank the remaining 3 songs against each other), I will just say that the opening riff sounds a bit weak with the guitar just by itself. Once the song gets going, no problem at all.
2. Forsaken - Simple, yet effective. Great song.
1. ITPOE - Yeah, it is trendy to rank the epics as the best. There are parts of this that are maybe not as good as the songs I ranked below. But, to me, unless I actively dislike something in a song, it doesn't necessarily "drag the song down." All told, a longer song just means more quality minutes of stuff I like than a shorter song, so longer will get the nod if there are lots of good parts. That is how this one goes. If we broke it up into parts, pt. 2 would be ranked #4 and pt. 1 would be ranked #1 (just barely). But it would still be a VERY tight race between 1-4.
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8. Ministry of Lost Souls
7. Repentance
6. Constant Motion
5. In the Presence of Enemies Part II
4. The Dark Eternal Night
3. Prophets of War
2. In the Presence of Enemies Part I
1. Forsaken
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8. The Dark Eternal Night
7. Prophets of War
6. ITPoE 2
5. Forsaken
4. The Ministry of Lost Souls
3. ITPoE 1
2. Repentance
1. Constant Motion (that 2nd verse is especially killer :metal. Drumming goes without saying :o)
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7. Forsaken
6. Prophets Of War
5. Constant Motion
4. The Dark Eternal Night
3. Repentance
2. The Ministry Of Lost Souls
1. In The Presence Of Enemies
-Marc.
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8. Repentance
7. Forsaken
6. Ministry of Lost Souls
5. Constant Motion
4. Prophets of War
3. The Dark Eternal Night
2. In the Presence of Enemies Part II
1. In the Presence of Enemies Part I
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7: The Dark Eternal Night
6: Prophets of War
5: Repentance
4: Forsaken
3: The Ministry of Lost Souls
2: In the Presence of Enemies
1: Constant Motion
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7. Repentance
6. Constant Motion
5. Forsaken
4. Prophets Of War
3. The Ministry Of Lost Souls
2. The Dark Eternal Night
1. In The Presence Of Enemies
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7. Constant Motion
6. The Ministry Of Lost Souls
5. Prophets Of War
4. Repentance
3. In The Presence Of The Enemies
2. Forsaken
1. The Dark Eternal Night
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7. Prophets of War: There's just not a lot to like about this song aside from the chorus. Doesn't do it for me at all, and I'd consider it one of my least favorite songs in their entire catalog.
6. The Dark Eternal Night: Not nearly as bad as some make it out to be. It's not that great either, as it does drag after a while for me and becomes a bit monotonous/redundant, but it has some nice riffs and it's got a cool solo. Lyrics are a little bit of a....miss for me on this one though.
5. Forsaken: Nice little song. Doesn't really leave all too much of any sort of impression whenever I get done with it though. It's just kind of "there". There's surely some nice riffs in there.
4. Repentance: Also not as bad as people say. It has a really great, drooping bass line and appeals to a more somber atmosphere. My complaint is that it goes on for too long.
3. Constant Motion: Great riffs, great solos. It's energetic and punchy and a good listen.
2. The Ministry of Lost Souls: Emotional and even captivating at times. What really ruins it for me is the instrumental section that breaks the mold far too harshly. It could have been done to supplement the song rather than detract from it, too, so it feels like such a lost opportunity. Even so, the last few minutes till the ending is really great.
1. In the Presence of Enemies: Don't even care if it's the album epic. If it's the best song, then it's the best song. It by far has the best highs on SC, with heavy, crushing instrumentation and memorable riffs and solos. Really does feel "epic" in the truest sense of the word. It might be my least favorite DT epic, but it's still pretty good.
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7 - Constant Motion: I don't like the backing vocals, the "rap", the straight forward structure and the lyrics. One of my least favorites from their catalogue.
6 - Prophets Of War: I like the song, but the 'disco' vibe is annoying IMO. If they tried something more like a cinematic stuff into those riffs, it would raise the song.
5 - Repentance: Nice ballad, beautifull melody and vibe. But as I told before in another topic, I don't like the "speeches" about personal deceptions. Would've been better if there was a keyboard or piano solo instead, or even if the song was shorter.
4 - The Dark Eternal Night: Smashing riff from JP. This song has another thing that I like about DT, specially in the instrumental section: They throw some riffs and harmonies that sounds kinda funny and chaotic at the same time. That is pretty amazing and really raises the song. My problem with it, again: The backing vocals.
3 - The Ministry Of Lost Souls: The only problem in this song is the fade out. The vibe is pretty deep and sad in the begining, and the song grows into an epic style. But and epic, needs to end properly. Not with a damn fade out. That is the only thing that bothers me in that song, because the rest is really cool.
2 - In The Presence Of Enemies I: I love that song. Best way to start the album. I love the instrumental intro, really gets you excited about what comes next. And about what's next, the song keeps growing and throwing the themes that guide the history behind the instruments. And suddenly, the song ends in a darker mood, leading to...
1 - In The Presence Of Enemies II: I love that song [2]. Best way to end the album. The most amazing thing about that one IMO, is the dark and scary mood. I really feel like diving into the story and what happens with the character. I have to say that I love the story behind the song. I don't understand all the hatred for this song, because I love it, and for me this is the best one of this record.
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7. TDEN - bottom 5 DT
6. Forsaken - Utterly... there.
5. PoW - It's okay I guess, I like the synths and some of the riffs
4. ITPOE - A lot of good stuff, a lot of mediocre/bad stuff, and way too bloated for me to ever want to listen to anymore
3. Constant Motion - Uptempo and with a good energy throughout
2. TMOLS - Great song, instrumental section is just a bit out of place/overly long.
1. Repentance - Disgustingly underrated
TMOLS and Repentance are the only two in my top 50 tho
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An album like this I can't rate like that. I love all of the songs (the only DT album other than ADTOE I can say that about).
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I was beginning to think that I was the only one who loves this album.
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8. Constant Motion - despite a good riff and great guitar solo, this is one of the two or three worst DT songs ever. Worst vocal melodies of their career.
7. Forsaken - Not a bad song, but the chorus just lacks the oomph it needed. Waste of a nice piano melody and another great JP solo.
6. Prophets of War - Not as awful as many say, but not that good either.
5. In the Presence of Enemies II - Has some good stuff in there somewhere, but not enough to ever warrant me dedicating 15 minutes to it anymore.
4. The Ministry of Lost Souls - So many great parts in this, but as a whole, it is somewhat lacking. The first half drags too much, and the instrumental section is too out of place. The ending is dynamite, regardless.
3. Repentance - Much better than most say.
2. The Dark Eternal Night - A big dumb metal song that works. It's a fun tune.
1. In the Presence of Enemies Part 1 - Very good tune on its own. It's the least best "Best song from a DT studio album."
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7. Prophets of War
6. Forsaken
5. Repentance
4. In the Presence of Enemies
3. Constant Motion
2. Ministry of Lost Souls
1. The Dark Eternal Night
That being said, TDEN is really the only song I like. All six of the rest generally do nothing for me.
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8. Prophets of War- like it, but it's pretty forgettable. I've only listened to it a couple dozen times or so and haven't bothered with it in years.
7. Repentance- I like the bass line, but it's just mind numbingly long and boring. I think I've listened to the entire song straight twice.
6. In the Presence of Enemies, pt 2- I really enjoy this part, but it's too long and brings down pt. 1 a bit.
5. Forsaken- decent ballad. Nothing special tho.
4. The Dark Eternal Night- Really fun riff, awesome instrumental section, killer outro, especially with JR's soloing live.
3. Constant Motion- Awesome single style song, with one of my favorite instrumental sections from DT.
2. The Ministry of Lost Souls- sure, it's a little long, but it's definitely a great song overall. Instrumental section is godly, and the melody is gorgeous.
1. In the Presence of Enemies, pt.1- GREAT way to open the album, and I love the feel of this song to death.
Overall, SC's probably my least favorite album by them, but overall I still enjoy it greatly. I just don't hate anything DT.
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1. The Dark Eternal Night - An amazing metal track with one of DT's most well thought out instrumental sections, killer riffing, and is a load of fun.
2. Constant Motion - Hugely underrated metal track, with a cool chorus and a great instrumental section (I love JR's solo).
3. In The Presence Of The Enemies - Despite some weaker sections in part 2, it has so many amazing sections, and still gives me chills once it hits the big moog reprisal at the end. And the dark master chorus is badass.
4. Forsaken - A well written shorter song with nice harmonies and a blistering solo.
5. Repentance - A great song that goes on for a few minutes too long.
6. The Ministry Of Lost Souls - So many gorgeous sections, it's just watered down by an average instrumental section (that still has an awesome JP solo).
7. Prophets Of War - I still enjoy this song, but it's such a weird mix of elements that I mostly enjoy it on a camp level. I dig that they were still trying new things though.
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My ranking is very similar to that of the OP. The only change I'd make is dropping PoW down a couple of places.
7. Repentance: This has just never been my cup of tea. One of my least favourite DT songs. Nice solo by JP though.
6. Prophets of War: I've never felt this is as bad as many people make out and I actually think it's got some quite cool sections, but still a fairly weak song by DT standards.
5. Forsaken: Similar to the OP - this used to be one of my favourite tracks from the album. SC was my first new DT release as a fan of the band and I remember playing Forsaken over and over again. But over time it's effects have waned and I tend to prefer the bands more 'complex' tracks now I suppose. Still enjoy it though.
4. The Dark Eternal Night: A bit silly and drags on towards the end, but good fun and enjoyable. Could have been better with some trimming I think. Worked well live though.
3. Constant Motion: Great, high energy metal track. I always enjoy listening to this one, especially JPs solo :metal
2. The Ministry of Lost Souls: One of DT's most underrated tracks, though I'm noticing more people saying they enjoy it recently. I've always loved it, nice contrast of styles between the first and second halves, amazing instrumental section - I guess it has a sort of Endless Sacrifice structure to it, a song that I also adore.
1. In the Presence of Enemies: Easily a top 10 DT track, but I'm a sucker for the epics. Some incredible moments among both parts and I don't have any issues with sections some people don't like. I don't seem to listen to it as much as I used to though for some reason.
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Best to worst instead:
1. In The Presence Of Enemies
2. The Dark Eternal Night
3. Forsaken
4. Constant Motion
5. Prophets Of War
6. Repentance
7. The Ministry Of Lost Souls
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My ranking is very similar to that of the OP. The only change I'd make is dropping PoW down a couple of places.
7. Repentance: This has just never been my cup of tea. One of my least favourite DT songs. Nice solo by JP though.
6. Prophets of War: I've never felt this is as bad as many people make out and I actually think it's got some quite cool sections, but still a fairly weak song by DT standards.
5. Forsaken: Similar to the OP - this used to be one of my favourite tracks from the album. SC was my first new DT release as a fan of the band and I remember playing Forsaken over and over again. But over time it's effects have waned and I tend to prefer the bands more 'complex' tracks now I suppose. Still enjoy it though.
4. The Dark Eternal Night: A bit silly and drags on towards the end, but good fun and enjoyable. Could have been better with some trimming I think. Worked well live though.
3. Constant Motion: Great, high energy metal track. I always enjoy listening to this one, especially JPs solo :metal
2. The Ministry of Lost Souls: One of DT's most underrated tracks, though I'm noticing more people saying they enjoy it recently. I've always loved it, nice contrast of styles between the first and second halves, amazing instrumental section - I guess it has a sort of Endless Sacrifice structure to it, a song that I also adore.
1. In the Presence of Enemies: Easily a top 10 DT track, but I'm a sucker for the epics. Some incredible moments among both parts and I don't have any issues with sections some people don't like. I don't seem to listen to it as much as I used to though for some reason.
Really well said. :tup
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8. Prophets of War
7. Constant Motion
6. Forsaken
5. TMOLS
4. Repentance
3. ITPOE Pt. 2
2. The Dark Eternal Night
1. ITPOE Pt. 1
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7. Constant Motion
Rather fun song, energetic, and with an especially cool solo from JP. But other than that it's a pretty generic metal song.
6. The Dark Eternal Night
Very silly, but I suppose that's part of its charm. Main riff is pretty singable, funny, and catchy, with a cool chorus and a really really fun instrumental section. Not to mention the closing riff. Heavy stuff.
5. Prophets of War
This one seems to be one of the most disliked DT songs ever. I don't really get why, it's a cool little track, with some fun new (for DT) ideas thrown in. And the crowd chant is pretty cool.
4. Forsaken
One of my favorite DT singles. Very catchy, cool rhythms, especially during the verses. "Out of an ivory mist, I felt a stinging kiss, and saw a crimson stain on her lips" is an awesome line even if I think singing about vampires is a bit silly.
3. Repentance
Always liked this one. I've never thought the ending goes on for too long, I think it all fits very well. The solo is amazing, the verses are really cool, and the spoken words section is a very interesting idea.
2. The Ministry of Lost Souls
Now here's an outro I think goes on for too long, but it doesn't really take away from the song as a whole for me. I've never had a problem with the instrumental section, which many seems to have, and I love the transition they made between the parts before leading into it.
1. In the Presence of Enemies
One of my favorite DT songs ever, along with both the first DT song I ever heard and the first progressive metal song I ever heard. It's basically what introduced me to the genre and spawned my interest in music beyond just as a casual listener. So many awesome moments throughout this epic.
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7. Repentance
6. Prophets of War
5. Constant Motion
4. Forsaken
3. The Dark Eternal Night
2. The Ministry of Lost Souls
1. In the Presence of Enemies
Probably my least favorite album as a whole, but I really love TMoLS and ItPoE.
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7. The Ministry of Lost Souls
6. Prophets of War
5. Forsaken
4. The Dark Eternal Nights
3. Constant Motion
2. Repentance
1. In The Presence of Enemies
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7. Constant Motion
6. The Ministry of Lost Souls
5. Forsaken
4. Repentance
3. Prophets Of War
2. The Dark Eternal Night
1. In The Presence Of Enemies
This album I listen to least, it has its moments though. I find I play The Dark Eternal Night the most and ffwd to the jam at the end. :metal. Also, ITPOE 1s introduction is awesomeness. Lately, I've been appreciating Prophets of War for some reason, it used to be my least favorite.
After reading some of these write ups I'm going to listen to Constant Motion again with a fresh perspective.
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7. Forsaken
6. Constant Motion
5. Prophets Of War
4. The Dark Eternal Night
3. Repentance
2. In The Presence Of Enemies
1. The Ministry Of Lost Souls
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Lover here..
8- Prophets of War: Strange to be DT, and not so good, though I always enjoy the section that starts with "The only thing that I believe...".. :smiley:
7- Forsaken: Nice song.. Good riff, good verses (the second is great, but the first one has its own thing -I LOVE how you can hear so clear all the five guys doing their thing-) and average chorus.. Short but great solo.. :tup
6- The Dark Eternal Night: I used to hate the MP vocals, but now I kind of got used to them (npi).. BUT dat instrumental just put this song among the very few with excellent instrumental parts.. In fact, those vocals used to keep me from this insane beautiful section.. Oh, and I was forgetting the riffs.. Glorious moment at the end of the song.. :metal
5- In the Presence of Enemies pt 1: Yeah, great song indeed.. Especially Prelude I must say, but vocal parts on Resurrection are good enough to makes me prefer this one over TDEN.. ;)
4- Repentance: I don't like very much the beginning of the song, but after the MP line it gets more and more awesome.. I got to mention THAT epic guitar solo.. :chill It's among JP's best.. Then, with Restitution, the song enters in a unique section in DT history, which, despite its nature, it never bores me (I even like how the final voices homogenizes with the background music)..
3- Constant Motion: the opening riff sounds a bit weak with the guitar just by itself. Once the song gets going, no problem at all.
I think that the guitar being by itself at the beginning is necessary to give that impact when the rest of the band kicks off.. Apart from that, I got nothing to say that it hasn't been already said about this short little masterpiece.. I'll just emphasize the force and awesomeness of the part at 4:04.. That drumming.. :rollin (yep, "pun" INTENDED this time)
2- In the Presence of Enemies pt 2: Heretic is perfect.. The darkness, the brilliance, the unpredictable on it.. I listen it today and it still keeps its freshness.. The Slaughter... a "minimalist" (minimalist for DT) metal moment that at that point it fits the structure of the song perfectly, and it has one of DT's more deep, strong and astonishing section.. "Through a veil of madness..." it's what it says.. Then, a DT SC common instrumental with The Reckoning, having really great moments.. And finally, Salvation, a nice ending to a truely masterpiece.. Those freaking melodies!.. :hefdaddy
1- The Ministry of Lost Souls: It seems that I'm the only one to classify TMoLS as the best song on this album (edit: I was).. This is definitely a grower, but it never was a bad song for me.. I used to like it, now I love it.. The melodies, the lyrics, all of it is just outstanding and, against this: the instrumental section is too out of place.
I think is not.. Or, to put it in another -and paradoxically- way, I think is not out of place because it is.. It fits completely to the song for the unexpected and sudden it is.. Besides that, the entire section it's great, especially the final unison (glorious moment), but I love the whole song, since the very beginning.. Aside the intro, starting with the JP's arpeggio at 0:51, and then the verses, choruses and the memorable outro... It just transports me to another place I can't describe with mere words.. :heart
A great album, underrated from my point of view.. I think it's the last album in which DT has experiment.. I want some of that spirit on the next album, I'm pretty sure they still can..
And another thing: they're eight songs, not seven..
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I just didn't rate TMOLS as the best due to the EXTREME AWESOMENESS of ITPOE part 2
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And another thing: they're eight songs, not seven..
I disagree. I've always counted ItPoE as one. I've edited them together and never listen to them seperately any longer. Additionally, the band wrote it as one song.
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And another thing: they're eight songs, not seven..
I disagree. I've always counted ItPoE as one. I've edited them together and never listen to them seperately any longer. Additionally, the band wrote it as one song.
They ARE 8 separate songs.. If you edited ItPoE 1 and 2 together, that's you (well, you and many others, I know).. And yes, the band wrote, at first, ITPoE as a stand alone song, but then they've decided to divide it into two.. So they're two songs.. Just like AMBI is not one song but three, even if the band wrote it as one longer song at first..
It can be considered correctly as a Suite.. But not as ONE song..
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Just the fact that it was written, recorded and played live makes as one song makes it so. In The Presence of Enemies has no characteristics of a suite.
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Worst to best
8. Forsaken
7. Ministry of Lost Souls
6. In the Presence of Enemies Part II
5. In the Presence of Enemies Part I
4. The Dark Eternal Night
3. Constant Motion
2. Repentance
1. Prophets of War
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Wow, literally all of the tracks have at least made it to #1 at least one time by you guys.
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And another thing: they're eight songs, not seven..
I disagree. I've always counted ItPoE as one. I've edited them together and never listen to them seperately any longer. Additionally, the band wrote it as one song.
They ARE 8 separate songs.. If you edited ItPoE 1 and 2 together, that's you (well, you and many others, I know).. And yes, the band wrote, at first, ITPoE as a stand alone song, but then they've decided to divide it into two.. So they're two songs.. Just like AMBI is not one song but three, even if the band wrote it as one longer song at first..
It can be considered correctly as a Suite.. But not as ONE song..
8 tracks, 7 songs. The decision to split it was made after writing/recording the song. It has never been considered a suite.
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8. Prophets Of War
7. The Ministry Of Lost Souls
6. Repentance
5. The Dark Eternal Night
4. In The Presence Of Enemies Pt. 1
3. Constant Motion
2. In The Presence Of Enemies Pt. 2
1. Forsaken
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And another thing: they're eight songs, not seven..
I disagree. I've always counted ItPoE as one. I've edited them together and never listen to them seperately any longer. Additionally, the band wrote it as one song.
They ARE 8 separate songs.. If you edited ItPoE 1 and 2 together, that's you (well, you and many others, I know).. And yes, the band wrote, at first, ITPoE as a stand alone song, but then they've decided to divide it into two.. So they're two songs.. Just like AMBI is not one song but three, even if the band wrote it as one longer song at first..
It can be considered correctly as a Suite.. But not as ONE song..
8 tracks, 7 songs. The decision to split it was made after writing/recording the song. It has never been considered a suite.
I agree with this.
But in my ranking in this thread, I kept them separated, because I like Pt. 1 much better than Pt. 2.
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Just the fact that it was written, recorded and played live makes as one song makes it so. In The Presence of Enemies has no characteristics of a suite.
None of those are good arguments of why it is so often considered as one song..
Written: no, because we don't know how many songs have been written as one at first and divided afterward.. In fact, we actually do know about a case: Burning My Soul and Hell's Kitchen.. Are they two songs because they were written initially as one?.. I don't think so..
Recorded: Neither.. You have all SFAM as a proof.. There are songs which can be recorded continuously but then split into two or more songs, as The Mirror/Lie or Hell's Kitchen/Lines in the Sand..
Played live: Yeah, ItPoE was most of the times played "entirely", or rather, together, but they have played ItPoE part 1 only a lot of times also so this isn't a consistent argument either.. Have in mind that they've played live a huge amount of songs as one, like the ones I've already mentioned, and so many others, including songs that are not even in the same album, such as On the Backs of Angels/War Inside My Head (LaLP) or The Looking Glass/Trial of Tears (BtFW), to mention only a couple..
The reason (that I can understand, though I don't agree with) of why it can be considered as one song is the obvious fact that both tracks tell the same story, share riffs, melodies, and, basically, that ItPoE 1 it's composed by parts 1 and 2, and ItPoE 2 by parts 3, 4, 5 and 6 of that same story.. Either way, all these characteristics are valid too for the Twelve Step Suite songs.. That's why I said that I can stand they to be treated as a suite, though I don't think of them as one.. They're two separate songs, and that's what makes them unique.. They're one and two at the same time.. One story, two songs... but in the same album, unlike the TS Suite, and not consecutively, unlike A Mind Beside Itself..
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Well, first off, let me just say that ITPOE presents a unique situation where I think there are valid points to argue both, and I don't think the band would take a firm position one way or the other because of the unique circumstances surrounding this song.
But that said, your arguments miss the point. The band has weighed in and told us whether it is one song or two, so any arguments to the contrary really miss the point. The fact is, the band wrote it as one song, intended it to be considered one song, and presented it that way live on the tour to represent the song as it was intended. And they have been clear about that from the start. The fact that they played only part 1 on a few occasions does not really change anything. They did the same with parts of ACOS and Six Degrees as well, but that does not magically transform those separate parts into separate songs.
As I recall, the band said (and I am paraphrasing) that it is one song, but they had some conflicting concerns about the album as a whole: ITPOE is a great album opener, and they wanted it to start off the album. But they did not want to start the album with a huge epic because that just makes the flow of the album clunky. And they did not want to end with a 20-minute (approximately) epic because they just did that with Octavarium and did not want to repeat that format and have it be cliché. So since the song had a logical break in the middle, they split it into 2 tracks for album tracking purposes only.
Again, this is for album flow purposes--not because they decided it was two separate songs. This is very different from Burning My Soul/Hell's Kitchen, where the decision was made that Hell's Kitchen did not fit as part of Burning My Soul, and made it too clunky, so they rewrote and recorded it as two separate songs.
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I agree with this being a complex issue.. And I had heard about that statement of them, but I don't think I'm missing any point by saying the opposite, due the subjectivity of the case.. I'll always think of ItPoE as two songs, having the peculiarity to seem a single epic song.. Yeah, even when the band itself (which we know it wasn't really the band but only Portnoy) says the opposite..
"The fact that they played only part 1 on a few occasions does not really change anything.".. No, it doesn't, I was precisely saying that.. (It's tricky anyway..) I wasn't saying that because they played one song without the other a few times they're two songs and not one.. What I was saying is that the fact that they played both songs together it doesn't prove ItPoE is one song, which is not the same.. I also talked about OtBoA/WiMH, and no one can obviously think that these are one song instead of two for no particular reason..
They didn't decide it was two separate songs, that's right, they 'only' decided it was two separate tracks, decision responsible of these kind of talks or problems.. About BMS/HK, yeah, I didn't come up with an equal circumstance, but I'll repeat the main argument before that: we don't know how many songs they wrote as one at first and then divided.. If there's no other like ItPoE, then the song is unique about that too..
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7. Forsaken: DT's most generic song of all time.
6. Prophets Of War: Not really awful, but in no way great. Just incredibly forgettable.
5. Constant Motion: Actually a really cool song... The solo part is such a neat little section. The song gives a real "driving force" sorta feel.
4. The Dark Eternal Night: This one gets a bad wrap for a lot of things, and sometimes I see why: The verse, pre-chorus, chorus, the main riffs - they're all incredibly meh. But the instrumental section :metal is so pumped and sweet. The incredibly cool songwriting and instrumentation there saves the song for me.
3. The Ministry Of Lost Souls: Every part of this song is so good. It is VERY long for it's own good, but it was one of the first DT epics I got into and I never had a problem with its length or its many different parts. So dramatic, so emotional, so energy powah. Love the outro too.
2. Repentance: I get why people bash this one too. For me, everything up until the guitar solo is amazing, but the part after the guitar solo is even better. DT (or Portnoy specifically I suppose) wanted to get across that idea of the intense emotion, regret, and melancholy that was present in this song and he achieved that in every way. The last 5 minutes of this song are the most beautiful minutes on the album, and they last just as long as they should.
1. In The Presence Of Enemies: Obvious choice for number one. Both parts just have the coolest songwriting and dynamics to convey the story and the evil/darkness that the song just drips with. As with most DT epics, epic is the perfect word to describe this one. It isn't incredibly mindblowing, but it's a fun trip all the way through.
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Just the fact that it was written, recorded and played live makes as one song makes it so. In The Presence of Enemies has no characteristics of a suite.
None of those are good arguments of why it is so often considered as one song..
Written: no, because we don't know how many songs have been written as one at first and divided afterward.. In fact, we actually do know about a case: Burning My Soul and Hell's Kitchen.. Are they two songs because they were written initially as one?.. I don't think so..
Recorded: Neither.. You have all SFAM as a proof.. There are songs which can be recorded continuously but then split into two or more songs, as The Mirror/Lie or Hell's Kitchen/Lines in the Sand..
Played live: Yeah, ItPoE was most of the times played "entirely", or rather, together, but they have played ItPoE part 1 only a lot of times also so this isn't a consistent argument either.. Have in mind that they've played live a huge amount of songs as one, like the ones I've already mentioned, and so many others, including songs that are not even in the same album, such as On the Backs of Angels/War Inside My Head (LaLP) or The Looking Glass/Trial of Tears (BtFW), to mention only a couple..
The reason (that I can understand, though I don't agree with) of why it can be considered as one song is the obvious fact that both tracks tell the same story, share riffs, melodies, and, basically, that ItPoE 1 it's composed by parts 1 and 2, and ItPoE 2 by parts 3, 4, 5 and 6 of that same story.. Either way, all these characteristics are valid too for the Twelve Step Suite songs.. That's why I said that I can stand they to be treated as a suite, though I don't think of them as one.. They're two separate songs, and that's what makes them unique.. They're one and two at the same time.. One story, two songs... but in the same album, unlike the TS Suite, and not consecutively, unlike A Mind Beside Itself..
They're actually overwhelming evidence of it being one song. Your mistake here is arguing all of those words individually, because none of those examples meet all of those criteria, which is the obvious point here.
Burning My Soul and Hell's Kitchen were originally written as one song, but then split up and rewritten as separate songs, and then recorded as such. ITPOE was not rewritten or changed around in any way to make it two separate songs after being split. It was just cut in half. That's not the case with the BMS/HK combo.
SFAM is murkier because it actually was originally written to be one song years beforehand, but by the time of recording, there was no intention of it all being one song. It was always recorded as a concept album. The recording process obviously had more overlap with transitions, but it was still treated separately, and named separately.
Yes, playing tracks back to back live isn't proof that they're one song, because they weren't also WRITTEN AND RECORDED as one song as ITPOE was.
Also, you know, they're clearly labeled as ITPOE pt 1 and pt 2. I don't recall a Burning My Soul pt 1 / pt 2, or Strange Deja Vu pt 1 / pt 2.
This is really straightforward when you put the pieces together. As blurry as the lines can get in prog, you have to be trying pretty hard to ignore the clear evidence in this case.
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As all the posts above shows, there are a lot of evidence of ItPoE being one song, but there is only one piece of evidence against it, which is the fact that they're not next to each other on the album's track listing. So in my mind, the evidence for far outweighs the evidence against.
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MP said that the only reason it was split into two parts on the album was that when they were putting together the track order, ITPOE was the overwhelmingly best choice to open the album, and also the overwhelmingly best choice to close the album. So they split it, in order to do both.
It's one song, split into two tracks for presentation purposes on the album. Not even sure why there is a discussion on this.
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The creators of the song (the band) should surely be the final judge, jury and executioner over this issue. If they say it is a single song, then it is. No argument/issue about it.
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The creators of the song (the band) should surely be the final judge, jury and executioner over this issue. If they say it is a single song, then it is. No argument/issue about it.
lol that won't go far here.
Stop making sense.
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7. Prophets of War
6. Constant Motion
5. The Dark Eternal Night
4. Repentance
3. Ministry of Lost Souls
2. Forsaken
1. In the Presence of Enemies (in full glory)
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RE: ITPOE as One song or Two - I'll sound off and say that I agree with the fact (yes, fact, as has been stated by the piece's creators) that "In The Presence Of Enemies" is indeed ONE song, but it is also two TRACKS.
There's a difference between Songs and Tracks. Songs =/= Tracks, especially in the world of prog. "Six Degrees Of Inner Turbulence" is 8 tracks, but it is also 1 song. There's also a difference between Suites and Songs. One Suite =/= One Song. "A Mind Beside Itself" is known as a suite, but it is not one song (especially as the pieces that make it up were all composed at separate times). The same goes for "The Twelve-Step Suite", which features 5 songs (with 2-3 movements each), composed at 5 different times over the course of a decade.
Had "A Change Of Seasons" been released as 7 tracks, would we all be arguing over whether or not it's one song or seven?! Most people would accept it as one song, but there'd be others who'd accept it as 7, but it was all composed at once, released at once, and intended as a whole piece, so therefore, it'd still be ONE song, just a longer epic piece split into 7 tracks.
Similar to the title track to SDOIT, ITPOE is split to facilitate the format. The 42-minute epic SDOIT was split because MP (and possibly the rest of the band) felt that the novelty of seeing the CD timer (because this was before iPod's and MP3 players) would wear off after awhile, so tracking the song into 8 separate tracks made it easier for fans to jump to specific parts if they wanted to.
While it was for a different reason, ITPOE was split to facilitate the album, to both open AND close the album (as has been previously said numerous times in this thread). Had the individual movements also been tracked into separate tracks, would we be arguing over whether or not it was 6 songs or one?
Needless to say, I'll always hold band-intent above any other opinion, considering they wrote it.
TL:DR - ITPOE is one song, but still 2 tracks; SDOIT is still one song, but also 8 tracks; AMBI is NOT a song, but a suite made of 3 tracks, which are also 3 songs; TTSS is 5 tracks, 5 songs, but 1 suite.
Then again, don't get me started on SFAM, whose back cover lists 9 track times for its 9 scenes, but lists 12 tracks for the individual tracks on the album. Do the Scenes count as songs? Is "Through My Words" really a song, or just part of one? These questions and more on the next DTF-Debate...
-Marc.
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"Six Degrees Of Inner Turbulence" is 8 tracks, but it is also 1 songs.
Yes, it is 1 songs.
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Do the Scenes count as songs? Is "Through My Words" really a song, or just part of one? These questions and more on the next DTF-Debate...
-Marc.
Great conclusion man, I'm already hooked for the next episode because of those intriguing questions.
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I think ITPOE would have worked closing the album as one single track, but the big problem then is, what becomes the first track? It can't be something on the mellow side, so it has to be a rocker. The Dark Eternal Night was too much of a departure to kick off the album, Forsaken really is more of a track 2 or 3 than opener, Prophets of War is too meh to start anything, and while the Constant Motion riff would have a cool beginning of the album, most of the rest of the song is too poor to open the album.
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I actually have SC rearranged and have to say that Constant Motion is an amazing opener.
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I think ITPOE would have worked closing the album as one single track, but the big problem then is, what becomes the first track? It can't be something on the mellow side, so it has to be a rocker. The Dark Eternal Night was too much of a departure to kick off the album, Forsaken really is more of a track 2 or 3 than opener, Prophets of War is too meh to start anything, and while the Constant Motion riff would have a cool beginning of the album, most of the rest of the song is too poor to open the album.
I actually have SC rearranged and have to say that Constant Motion is an amazing opener.
This. I, too, have done this, and re-worked the album where TMOLS now cross-fades into Forsaken, essentially doing the inverse of what ITPOE did with it's two parts. TMOLS is now 15:00 long and going into Forsaken. I open with CM and TDEN (as 'Side 1'), then do TMOLS/Forsaken (as 'Side 2'), move on to Repentance and POW (as 'Side 3'), and close the album with the complete 25:12 version of ITPOE.
Also, if anyone questions whether or not the song was actually composed as one whole piece in the studio, recall that it had one working title for the whole piece. In addition to that, if you watch the Making Of DVD that came with the special edition, you'll hear the octave bass part that opens Part 2 play 8 bars (of 6/8) after the closing guitar/keyboard run that closes Part 1 (just without a lot of the wind sounds in between). It's the part where they're tracking JP's guitar part over JR's keyboard part, and you can hear the bass come in 8 bars later just before they cut it off.
Using that as a guideline, I've made my version of ITPOE to mimic that so that the final version is the complete 25:12, although most places and people will say the song is longer due to just adding the two parts' times together (where the wind sounds extend the actual song length).
-Marc.
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8. Repentance
7. Prophets of War
6. ITPOE1
5. Constant Motion
4. Forsaken
3. ITPOE2
2. TDEN
1. TMOLS
Something like that.
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I actually have SC rearranged and have to say that Constant Motion is an amazing opener.
It definitely would have made a great opener, right in line with previous heavy opening tracks. They opened with it live too, and it went down very well. :tup
I don't like to mess with track order too much though, so aside from ITPOE, I leave it unchanged with Forsaken opening the album, which I still think works well.
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Mine goes:
ITPOE
Forsaken
Constant Motion
TDEN
(and if I feel like it, I have Repentance at the end)
ITPOE is such a great opener that the fact that it is a long epic doesn't really have a negative impact at all, IMO.
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MP said that the only reason it was split into two parts on the album was that when they were putting together the track order, ITPOE was the overwhelmingly best choice to open the album, and also the overwhelmingly best choice to close the album. So they split it, in order to do both.
It's one song, split into two tracks for presentation purposes on the album. Not even sure why there is a discussion on this.
Indeed. Beautifully said :'(
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I actually have SC rearranged and have to say that Constant Motion is an amazing opener.
Yeah, I have this to, and on the rare occasions that I listen to SC, it works really well.
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Too much to answer.. I'll only say that I'm still thinking ItPoE it's one song, no matter if Petrucci himself tells me the opposite right in my face.. I'd defend my posture.. After all, we're talking about the same band that has labeled a song as False Awakening SUITE, and at the same time has decided a name such as The Twelve Step SUITE for a set of songs.. I have no problem at all with this, but I'm only mentioning it to point out the subjective these things are..
Just the fact that it was written, recorded and played live makes as one song makes it so.
ITPOE is one song, but still 2 tracks; SDOIT is still one song, but also 8 tracks; AMBI is NOT a song, but a suite made of 3 tracks, which are also 3 songs; TTSS is 5 tracks, 5 songs, but 1 suite.
SFAM, whose back cover lists 9 track times for its 9 scenes, but lists 12 tracks for the individual tracks on the album. Do the Scenes count as songs?
If you (all) agree with those conditions a song has to accomplish to be considered as a song, then what about The Mirror/Lie (my ignored example)?.. It satisfies the three conditions.. We should say they're not two songs but one?.. I don't think we should..
And yes, about SFAM, there you have another example of this question's relativity.. But I guess we can asume that the scenes are suites, and they decided to put the lenght of the suites rather than the songs'... that should solve the problem.. At least THAT problem..
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Too much to answer.. I'll only say that I'm still thinking ItPoE it's one song, no matter if Petrucci himself tells me the opposite right in my face.. I'd defend my posture..
Well that's just silly. He is the author, so he gets final say. But if you believe otherwise, there really isn't any point in continuing the discussion.
If you (all) agree with those conditions a song has to accomplish to be considered as a song, then what about The Mirror/Lie (my ignored example)?.. It satisfies the three conditions..
What are you talking about? It doesn't satisfy ANY of those conditions. They were not written or recorded as one song. And to the best of my knowledge, they have never been played as one song either. Ever. They may have been played back to back with The Mirror sequing into Lie, but that is a far cry from playing them as one song.
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I think it's one thing to stick to your guns when discussing your opinion on various topics, but another thing entirely to close your eyes to clear evidence differing from your belief about something.
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Precisely.
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7. Prophets of War
6. The Dark Eternal Night
5. Repentance
4. Constant Motion
3. Forsaken
2b. ITPOE part 1
2a. ITPOE part 2
1. The Ministry of Lost Souls
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If you (all) agree with those conditions a song has to accomplish to be considered as a song, then what about The Mirror/Lie (my ignored example)?.. It satisfies the three conditions..
What are you talking about? It doesn't satisfy ANY of those conditions. They were not written or recorded as one song. And to the best of my knowledge, they have never been played as one song either. Ever. They may have been played back to back with The Mirror sequing into Lie, but that is a far cry from playing them as one song.
Not sure if it was answered earlier in the thread, but "Lie" was born out of the middle section of "The Mirror". If you listen to the original demo of "The Mirror" (which clocks in at over 10 minutes), the middle section is essentially most of "Lie". Like "Hell's Kitchen", it was lifted out of the song and given lyrics and some new parts, but retains the "Mirror Reprise" at the end at the original demo had.
Thematically, that ending is all that "Lie" has in common with "The Mirror", but the band have played a version of "The Mirror" without "Lie" but including the reprise, as heard on Live Scenes From New York. The band have also played both songs back-to-back on numerous occasions, as evidenced on the DTIFC disc Graspop Festival 2002. "Lie" has also been played on its own before, as well. Neither song/track is really dependent on the other, nor were they technically written at the same time. For the final album version, the segue was included to make reference to the fact that one song was born out of the other, much in the same way that "Burning My Soul" segues into "Hell's Kitchen" on Falling Into Infinity. Unlike the original "Burning My Soul '96" performances, though, no original demo-version of "The Mirror" was EVER played live. The closest we've ever gotten was the version heard on LSFNY. Oddly enough, there have been very VERY few performances of JUST "Hell's Kitchen", and most of it was ever heard in the band's 2003/2004 Instrumedley. I think the band (sans LaBrie) may have played it a few times at some clinics or shows with MP, but that's about it.
If anyone has more information about "The Mirror"/"Lie", that'd be neat to hear, but that's as much as I can recall at the moment.
-Marc.
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While I get that ITPOE is technically one song, it doesn't really sound like one song. Okay, the wind blowing effect that ends I and begins II gives it continuity, but the opening verse of Part 2 has that "first verse of a song" feel, not "the middle of a song" or "new part of a song" feel.
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Prophets of War
TMOLS
Constant Motion
Forsaken
TDEN
Repentance
ITPOE Pt 2
ITPOE Pt 1
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I'm still thinking ItPoE it's one song, no matter if Petrucci himself tells me the opposite right in my face.. I'd defend my posture..
Well that's just silly. He is the author, so he gets final say. But if you believe otherwise, there really isn't any point in continuing the discussion.
Yeah, right there.. There's an enormous difference between what anyone can think about something (so relative) and what anyone can say about something he has created.. All I'm saying is that I wouldn't take back even if that hypothetical situation happens.. Change your mind only before something like that, now that would be silly.. Because I'm not saying how it is or how it should be, but only how it's for me, and based on the things I said before, not randomly..
I think it's one thing to stick to your guns when discussing your opinion on various topics, but another thing entirely to close your eyes to clear evidence differing from your belief about something.
There's no such evidence.. There's only different ways to see it.. And I'm not the only one to think they're eight songs.. About 10 over 30 people on this topic have numbered eight title tracks.. I know that doesn't mean they consider the songs are eight, but someone else from those 10 has to.. As I and some others have said before, this is a special case, and that's why some of us decided to see ItPoE as one single song.. You can't eliminate that opinion by any means..
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What the hell is happening? Do you think that it is one song now? Consider me confused.
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some of us decided to see ItPoE as one single song..
:facepalm: Nope.. Don't be confused, my bad.. I should have written: "as two separate songs.." Human slip.. ;D
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Well, that's easy.
The people that think it is 2 songs are wrong.
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Nah, they only have a different point of view.. Wrong would be people who think it is three or more songs.. Or that Systematic Chaos has nine tracks, etc..
ITPOE presents a unique situation where I think there are valid points to argue both, and I don't think the band would take a firm position one way or the other because of the unique circumstances surrounding this song.
IMO this summarizes the thing very well, except that I'd change the last part for: these songs..
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ITPOE would be top three at the least for me if they were forced to be rated as a split. They are a song, MP convinced the band to split them up due to flow and the album prior. On the SC tour they played it live as one song. That is the story that I'm sticking to, and my ITPOE are one song that starts the album.
1 = the best
1 ITPOE
2 CM
3 POW
4 R
^
5 TMOLS
^
^
6 F
^
^
^
7 TDEN
ITPOE is probably a top three 20+ minuter for me from DT, and it battles for number two a lot. The lyrics may be a bit meh, but to me the song is intense and heavy from the get-go. The chants actually work well in the song IMO. And that is really the appeal for the album for me, outside of Repentance. It works so much better for me within the 12 Step suite. Outside of it, I can kind of leave it. But I need it for the whole thing.
The rest are just meh to super meh to me. TMOLS has some good ideas, and I'm one of the few that actually like the instrumental stuff. I cannot stand the opening piano part, and the chorus. Forsaken is more of the same, sans the incredible solo. And TDEN is very symptomatic of the MP influence and issues. While I don't think the unheard JP non-aggressive verse vocal melodies would have saved it, the song goes all over the place while having three choruses. I do not like the choruses. The ending is incredible though.
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Nah, they only have a different point of view.. Wrong would be people who think it is three or more songs.. Or that Systematic Chaos has nine tracks, etc..
Okay how about this, they can be seen by as two seperate pieces, many people have split them in their rankings so that ultimately comes down to how one wants to do personally. But when it comes to whether or not it actually is one or two songs, there is only one true answer that doesn't change based on varying opinions. It's like saying "I like the right side of Mona Lisa more than the left". Okay, that's fine, me too, but that doesn't make it a seperate painting.
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Nah, they only have a different point of view.. Wrong would be people who think it is three or more songs.. Or that Systematic Chaos has nine tracks, etc..
Okay how about this, they can be seen by as two seperate pieces, many people have split them in their rankings so that ultimately comes down to how one wants to do personally. But when it comes to whether or not it actually is one or two songs, there is only one true answer that doesn't change based on varying opinions. It's like saying "I like the right side of Mona Lisa more than the left". Okay, that's fine, me too, but that doesn't make it a seperate painting.
Completely Nailed.
Turn Down for What.
Deal With It
You sir, just won DTF.
Nothing can be said against this :hefdaddy
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It's like saying "I like the right side of Mona Lisa more than the left". Okay, that's fine, me too, but that doesn't make it a seperate painting.
I can't read Mona Lisa without thinking of Blind Faith anymore damnit. :-\
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Nah, they only have a different point of view.. Wrong would be people who think it is three or more songs.. Or that Systematic Chaos has nine tracks, etc..
Okay how about this, they can be seen by as two seperate pieces, many people have split them in their rankings so that ultimately comes down to how one wants to do personally. But when it comes to whether or not it actually is one or two songs, there is only one true answer that doesn't change based on varying opinions. It's like saying "I like the right side of Mona Lisa more than the left". Okay, that's fine, me too, but that doesn't make it a seperate painting.
Or we could say that they are two separate tracks, which is factually correct, since one is track 1 and the other is track 8. :biggrin:
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Disclaimer: Systematic Chaos is my 2nd least favorite DT album, the first being BCSL.
On we go:
WORST
Repentance - one of my least favorite DT songs. Maybe even my least favourite song...no, wait, that's A Rite of Passage. Boring, annoying, insanely repetitive, has this narcissistic vibe about it that I cannot stand in its lyrics, mood, and the weird "let's bring a bunch of famous prog/metal artists to say a line or two for 4 minutes" idea. Ugh.
Constant Motion - I first realized I don't like this song when it invaded my otherwise ecstatic experience of my first Dream Theater concert in 2009. People around me were jumping and having a blast while I kind of snoozed around, during this song and during A Rite of Passage (did I mention I HATE that song?), while I just didn't feel anything, not even in a live setting. It's nice to listen to, rarely, but it feels so much like something that would come out from a different band. A band that is made out of a bunch of musicians that aren't half as talented as DT. I enjoy this song the same way I enjoy the occasional Guns n' Roses or Avenged Sevenfold song.
The Dark Eternal Night - I've had the opposite experience with this one compared to CM. I used to kinda dislike it and it bored me in the studio version, then I heard it in Chaos in Motion (and it was still bad mostly because of the quality of that DVD), then the band started playing it again during ADTOE's tour and it was much, much better. Then it clicked with me.
The Ministry of Lost Souls - I believe bosk1 said earlier something about this song being a DT song "by the book" or so (sorry if I'm misquoting here). I completely agree, and it clicked with me much more. I like the way the song is written and the lyrics are occasionally charming, otherwise awkward.
Prophets of War - One thing I hate about numerous songs from ToT through BCSL (although I still love 8VM and really like ToT), and the reason SC and BCSL are my least favourite albums, is that many songs don't sound at all like DT. It's like they tried to mimic another band and forgot to give it their own spin, especially in SC and BCSL, less so in the other two. This song in particular feels like an exception to me. Plus, I love the kind of band(s) they "borrowed" the style from.
Forsaken - One of DT's finest "single-ready" songs.
In the Presence of Enemies - Pt. I is brilliant in its energy and composition. Pt. II is very similar to Ministry, in that it feels like a playbook DT song in its structure, but it also has a very distinct sound and feel and I love how big and grandiose it sounds. Put them together and you get an amazing epic. It's a shame they didn't, but I'll forver listen to the CiM version, or to my edited complete studio version.
BEST
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Nah, they only have a different point of view.. Wrong would be people who think it is three or more songs.. Or that Systematic Chaos has nine tracks, etc..
Okay how about this, they can be seen by as two seperate pieces, many people have split them in their rankings so that ultimately comes down to how one wants to do personally. But when it comes to whether or not it actually is one or two songs, there is only one true answer that doesn't change based on varying opinions. It's like saying "I like the right side of Mona Lisa more than the left". Okay, that's fine, me too, but that doesn't make it a seperate painting.
You're saying that "actually", based, ultimately, in the way Portnoy see ItPoE.. But his opinion, to me, it's like everyone else's in this particular occasion, given the complicated nature of the case (precisely this: I make one song, but then I split it into two... so, are they two tracks now or two songs? The answer is up each one..)
I say "in this particular occasion", because I won't be discussing to him the meaning of lyrics he wrote, because only he can know for sure their true essences, and there's no other thing to do other than like it or not..
That leads me to say that your example is not the indicated, because I'm not saying that I consider both ItPoE as two songs because I like one over the other.. They could be equally good to my taste and I'd still think they're separate songs..
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Oh come on, the 'liking' wasn't even the point, the seperating one from the other was.
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But the fact that they ARE separated it's not a personal opinion.. They are.. And while you take it as separate tracks only, I take it as separate songs as well.. Maybe it's a semantic issue, and it's semantically confusing, paraphrasing your personal text.. :lol
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Nah, they only have a different point of view.. Wrong would be people who think it is three or more songs.. Or that Systematic Chaos has nine tracks, etc..
ITPOE presents a unique situation where I think there are valid points to argue both, and I don't think the band would take a firm position one way or the other because of the unique circumstances surrounding this song.
IMO this summarizes the thing very well, except that I'd change the last part for: these songs..
Actually, ITPOE was written during the Octavarium sessions as 8 songs but it didn't fit on the album. So, they decided to release the condensed version as 2 tracks on Systematic Chaos. However, I think it's still believed to be 8 songs. Oh wait, maybe that was SDOIT. Nah...
(https://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss308/Zulan8r/RetardedSmiley.jpg) (https://s586.photobucket.com/user/Zulan8r/media/RetardedSmiley.jpg.html)
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Nah, they only have a different point of view.. Wrong would be people who think it is three or more songs.. Or that Systematic Chaos has nine tracks, etc..
ITPOE presents a unique situation where I think there are valid points to argue both, and I don't think the band would take a firm position one way or the other because of the unique circumstances surrounding this song.
IMO this summarizes the thing very well, except that I'd change the last part for: these songs..
Actually, ITPOE was written during the Octavarium sessions as 8 songs but it didn't fit on the album. So, they decided to release the condensed version as 2 tracks on Systematic Chaos. However, I think it's still believed to be 8 songs. Oh wait, maybe that was SDOIT. Nah...
(https://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss308/Zulan8r/RetardedSmiley.jpg) (https://s586.photobucket.com/user/Zulan8r/media/RetardedSmiley.jpg.html)
That's a Mind Beside itself, u ignorant.
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But the fact that they ARE separated it's not a personal opinion.. They are.. And while you take it as separate tracks only, I take it as separate songs as well..
But it's not separate songs. Not sure why you are so insistent on this.
Also not sure why you insist that the opinions of the people who actually wrote the song don't matter.
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The band has said ITPOE is one song. No matter how many tracks it is divided into (2, 5, 25 or whatever), the band still considers it to be one song. Since it was the band that created the piece, they are the ones who get to decide what constitutes a "song" and what constitutes a "suite". So if the band says ITPOE is a single song, but AMBI is a suite, that means ITPOE is a single song and AMBI is a suite. If they want to count 6DOIT as one big 42 minute song, but consider the 5 AA tracks to be separate songs that together form a suite, that is their decision to make, not ours. Really, we can run around in circles debating what makes something a "song" based on repetition of riffs, verses, melodies, etc, but at the end of the day, our opinions on the subject don't really matter. Dream Theater are the artists who wrote the thing, not us. They are the creators of the work, therefore they, and they alone, get to say what is a song, and what is not. That is the prerogative of the artist, not of their fans.
Also, on the subject of the thread:
1 - ITPOE
2 - TDEN
3 - Forsaken
4 - Constant Motion
5 - Prophets of War
6 - TMOLS
7 - Repentance
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In the Chaos In Progress documentary it shows JP recording the solo at the end of Part 1, and you hear Part 2 immediately start after he's done playing indicating it's.... Wait for it... One song.
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not sure why you insist that the opinions of the people who actually wrote the song don't matter.
They matter to them, and also to us, but only for giving us their perspective... but there will still be people, like me, that think otherwise.. Again, this is not like believing something different about the meaning of one lyric when its creator is revealing it..
if the band says ITPOE is a single song, but AMBI is a suite, that means ITPOE is a single song and AMBI is a suite.
As I said before: we're talking about the same band that has labeled a song as False Awakening SUITE, and at the same time has decided a name such as The Twelve Step SUITE for a set of songs.. I have no problem at all with this, but I'm only mentioning it to point out the subjective these things are..
In the Chaos In Progress documentary it shows JP recording the solo at the end of Part 1, and you hear Part 2 immediately start after he's done playing indicating it's.... Wait for it... One song.
Probably there's no video of this, but they could have (and I think they have) recorded together The Mirror and Lie, but that doesn't indicate it's one song at all.. Like all the examples already mentioned: Burning My Soul/Hell's Kitchen/Lines in the Sand, AMBI, and I add these two: As I Am/This Dying Soul and Vacant/Stream of Consciousness.. These last two songs even share the same chord progression, so why they're not one song but two?..
We don't know everything is on their minds, so about some stuff we can easily use our free expresion ability to have a posture about unclear things like these..
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First of all, False Awakening Suite was clearly a tongue in cheek thing. The track is all of 2 minutes and 42 seconds long, and it is divided into 3 "movements". Obviously, calling it a suite was intended as a joke.
We don't know everything is on their minds, so about some stuff we can easily use our free expresion ability to have a posture about unclear things like these..
But that's the thing, though: there is nothing unclear about this matter at all. The band themselves have said it is one song. That's it. Period. They wrote the song, they get to say what it is. Bosk already pointed out that the only reason why it was divided into two tracks was because the band could not decide if it was better to have it at the beginning or end of the album. Their decision had nothing to do with making ITPOE into two distinct "songs", and was done purely for the sake of album flow.
There is no room for debate about this. The artists who created the piece have said what it is, and, as the creators, they are the ones who get to define the nature of their work. It's one song, two tracks. That's it.
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Nah, they only have a different point of view.. Wrong would be people who think it is three or more songs.. Or that Systematic Chaos has nine tracks, etc..
ITPOE presents a unique situation where I think there are valid points to argue both, and I don't think the band would take a firm position one way or the other because of the unique circumstances surrounding this song.
IMO this summarizes the thing very well, except that I'd change the last part for: these songs..
Actually, ITPOE was written during the Octavarium sessions as 8 songs but it didn't fit on the album. So, they decided to release the condensed version as 2 tracks on Systematic Chaos. However, I think it's still believed to be 8 songs. Oh wait, maybe that was SDOIT. Nah...
(https://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss308/Zulan8r/RetardedSmiley.jpg) (https://s586.photobucket.com/user/Zulan8r/media/RetardedSmiley.jpg.html)
That's a Mind Beside itself, u ignorant.
Safe in the ass that surrounds you. :p
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not sure why you insist that the opinions of the people who actually wrote the song don't matter.
They matter to them, and also to us, but only for giving us their perspective... but there will still be people, like me, that think otherwise.. Again, this is not like believing something different about the meaning of one lyric when its creator is revealing it..
if the band says ITPOE is a single song, but AMBI is a suite, that means ITPOE is a single song and AMBI is a suite.
As I said before: we're talking about the same band that has labeled a song as False Awakening SUITE, and at the same time has decided a name such as The Twelve Step SUITE for a set of songs.. I have no problem at all with this, but I'm only mentioning it to point out the subjective these things are..
In the Chaos In Progress documentary it shows JP recording the solo at the end of Part 1, and you hear Part 2 immediately start after he's done playing indicating it's.... Wait for it... One song.
Probably there's no video of this, but they could have (and I think they have) recorded together The Mirror and Lie, but that doesn't indicate it's one song at all.. Like all the examples already mentioned: Burning My Soul/Hell's Kitchen/Lines in the Sand, AMBI, and I add these two: As I Am/This Dying Soul and Vacant/Stream of Consciousness.. These last two songs even share the same chord progression, so why they're not one song but two?..
We don't know everything is on their minds, so about some stuff we can easily use our free expresion ability to have a posture about unclear things like these..
The Mirror and Lie are clearly two seperate songs. Their only relation is The Mirror's reprise at the end of Lie, but there's also the melody of Space Dye Vest in The Mirror, but those are also two seperate songs. DT like to do stuff like that. I'm not sure how you think As I Am and This Dying Soul are related though.
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ARE YOU TELLING ME THAT THE MIRROR / LIE / SPACE DYE AREN'T A SUITE??
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In the Chaos In Progress documentary it shows JP recording the solo at the end of Part 1, and you hear Part 2 immediately start after he's done playing indicating it's.... Wait for it... One song.
Probably there's no video of this, but they could have (and I think they have) recorded together The Mirror and Lie, but that doesn't indicate it's one song at all.. Like all the examples already mentioned: Burning My Soul/Hell's Kitchen/Lines in the Sand, AMBI, and I add these two: As I Am/This Dying Soul and Vacant/Stream of Consciousness.. These last two songs even share the same chord progression, so why they're not one song but two?..
The Mirror and Lie are clearly two seperate songs. Their only relation is The Mirror's reprise at the end of Lie, but there's also the melody of Space Dye Vest in The Mirror, but those are also two seperate songs. DT like to do stuff like that. I'm not sure how you think As I Am and This Dying Soul are related though.
I'm talking about the specific moment in which the end of some songs (BmS, HK, Erotomania, The Mirror, As I Am and Vacant) and the very beginning of some other songs (HK, LitS, Voices, Lie, TDS and SoC) it's happening and they seem to have been recorded as one, even when they're two different songs.. They seem, because they can be obviously recorded not at once, and then pasted together (when you can't perceive when a song you're listening for the first time ends and the next one starts), or they can be recorded together and then split in the mix, like the case of ItPoE..
That split, I see it as a split into songs, and you as a split into tracks.. And okay, you're vast majority on this one, but you're all sounding very natural by saying something it'd sound pretty wrong or at least strange to everyone who doesn't know ItPoE's kind of situation.. As someone said before: "SC has 8 tracks, but only 7 songs"... So we are talking here about a one-of-a-kind thing.. That could give you all a clue of my disagreement and genuine reluctance to accept such a thing so readily..
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So this is what I must sound like to you guys in the P/R thread....
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Don't do that.. Now I wanna read that thread, but I'm suspecting I can't.. :justjen
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You can't use the notion that, just because we don't know how EVERYTHING goes down in the studio, in the band members' heads, that we can't accept the facts that we DO know from them about certain songs and/or tracks they have written/recording/released.
And if you're going to argue that just because two or more songs segue into each other, that there's the possibility that they were recording simultaneous, that's NOT very likely at all. Case in point - the entirety of Scenes From A Memory runs as two large sections, "Act 1" and "Act 2", with a break between "Through Her Eyes" and "Home". Before and after that break, the tracks and songs all run continuously, segueing into each other, but they were definitely not all recorded or even written around the same time. All those segues were cross-faded in production/post-production, during mixing and mastering. There was no way they would record 35-40 minutes of music straight through like that.
Another example would be the first 5 songs on Six Degrees Of Inner Turbulence, where the tracks all cross-fade/segue from one into the other. I'm sure if there weren't any limitations of the physical format/medium, then "Disappear" would've segued into the beginning of the title song as well. Segueing tracks is something a lot of prog bands do, whether to indicate similar melodic/harmonic/lyrical/thematic/narrative ideas, or perhaps "just because". It's a very PROG thing to do, since the 70's and even the 60's. The Beatles did it a bit too, but considering how frantic their recording sessions ran (with dozens of takes for certain songs and such), I doubt they wrote or recorded those songs together, nor intended any of them to be considering as one song. And The Beatles are one of THE MOST documented bands in the history of modern rock and roll, so any of their thoughts on their music are widely known.
Now, Dream Theater surely aren't The Beatles, but I think we, as fans, can accept what they have shared with us regarding their music, and fans who have known them for a very long time (since the beginning, or even before IAW and/or Awake), can attest to their ideas and notions regarding things like calling "A Mind Beside Itself" a suite and not a song.
TL:DR - Trapped inside this great debate...
-Marc.
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You're arguing clear and pretty undeniable evidence with personal belief here. If you, when you rank the songs of the album or whatever, want to split them up, then fine, that's fine. But I don't understand why you're persistant in actually trying to debate all the points we're making when you have the same points to back your side up over and over. Points that are actually unrelated to this discussion. You keep bringing up AMBI and the 12SS, but there's no confusion or relevant parable to be made there at all. It is just as clear that those are 3 and 5 songs that it is that ITPoE is one.
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And if you're going to argue that just because two or more songs segue into each other, that there's the possibility that they were recording simultaneous, that's NOT very likely at all.
Maybe I should do your TL/DR stuff.. I quote myself:
I'm talking about the specific moment in which the end of some songs and the very beginning of some other songs it's happening and they seem to have been recorded as one, even when they're two different songs.. They seem, because they can be obviously recorded not at once, and then pasted together, or they can be recorded together and then split in the mix, like the case of ItPoE..
I was precisely saying that not because ItPoE pt 1 and pt 2 were recorded together that necessarily means they're one song.. Because if so, then we should be considering the two acts from SFAM as two songs, or the first CD of SDoIT as one song, to stay in your examples.. Besides that, another argument that is against ItPoE being one song is the fact that it is separated (literally) by six tracks in the album..
You're arguing clear and pretty undeniable evidence with personal belief here.
The clear and pretty undeniable evidence you're talking about it's precisely a personal belief.. Portnoy's personal belief.. And if we are being so strict about things, or "facts", we should say that he is not the only creator of ItPoE, and maybe the less important of the four (musically speaking)..
I know that's another subject, but if you're gonna argue that because "has been stated by the piece's creators" that is one song therefore is indisputable that it is, when it's actually and clearly split it (for presentation purposes, okay, but split it either way) then you should say too that the decision was up to one person.. And, for the last time, this is not like the meaning of a song, that it's only possible known for sure by asking to its lyricist.. This is a different kind of issue, a semantic one as I say before..
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And, for the last time, this is not like the meaning of a song, that it's only possible known for sure by asking to its lyricist..
This kinda seems like.... exactly the same thing as that.
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https://www.musicplayers.com/features/guitars/2007/0607_John_Petrucci.php
MPc: The opening track, “In The Presence Of Enemies Part I,” is one of my favorite Dream Theater songs ever. And I have to ask you – four and a half minutes into it comes this gorgeous clean delayed tone. Tell us about that tone, because it just hit me and I was like… “Wow!”
JP: Well first of all, thanks for saying that. You’re one of the people who can appreciate a song like that because literally that was the first thing that we wrote together after being off for five months. The song was written as an entire twenty-five minute piece, and then we broke it up into two parts. When we finished up, I remember thinking and saying to the guys, “You know what? People that are fans of our music are really gonna’ like this song because it has all the elements that make us who we are.”
From the lyricist and one of, if not the prominent composer(s) of the piece. One song, two parts/tracks.
- Marc.
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In The Presences Of Enemies Part 1 :metal
The Dark Eternal Night :metal
Repentance :tup
The Ministry Of Lost Souls :)
Constant Motion :)
In The Presences Of Enemies Part 2 :huh:
Forsaken :huh:
Prophets Of War :facepalm:
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https://www.musicplayers.com/features/guitars/2007/0607_John_Petrucci.php
MPc: The opening track, “In The Presence Of Enemies Part I,” is one of my favorite Dream Theater songs ever. And I have to ask you – four and a half minutes into it comes this gorgeous clean delayed tone. Tell us about that tone, because it just hit me and I was like… “Wow!”
JP: Well first of all, thanks for saying that. You’re one of the people who can appreciate a song like that because literally that was the first thing that we wrote together after being off for five months. The song was written as an entire twenty-five minute piece, and then we broke it up into two parts. When we finished up, I remember thinking and saying to the guys, “You know what? People that are fans of our music are really gonna’ like this song because it has all the elements that make us who we are.”
From the lyricist and one of, if not the prominent composer(s) of the piece. One song, two parts/tracks.
- Marc.
Okay, but even if with that you beat my argument about MP, that doesn't change anything about ItPoE being two songs.. In fact you can see how the interviewer says ItoPE part 1 is one song, and doesn't say "it's one of my favorites tracks ever".. He doesn't, because that would be ridiculous (before being a track, ItPoE 1, is a song).. As ridiculous, to my ears, as saying ItPoE part 1 and two aren't two songs.. And JP didn't correct him about that.. He didn't say "it's impossible for you to like it as a song, because it isn't, it's just a track", or something like that..
Then he said the thing we all already know, that ItPoE was a song at first, but then was split it into two parts, for MP's decision (thing that he wouldn't say, of course).. He didn't say tracks, so you are altering what he said by saying "One song, two parts/tracks.".. Besides, bear in mind the problem with ItPoE part 1 and 2 being two parts, as JP said.. What about "Heretic"?, i.e.. Would it be a part of a part?.. Mmm, it still sounding quite inappropriate..
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Jesus you must really detest the sole notion that ITPOE could be single song. Even politicians don't argue over something this much. :lol
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You certainly don't live in my country.. We are mostly that way over here.. And I'm far from detesting it, I just think differently.. That's all..
Oh, and I'm not the only one arguing here.. I have the whole DTF against me.. :lol
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FFS, give up!
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Bet you a beer that it's John Myung and this is the greatest troll in the history of DTF. :lol
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Does it actually matter?
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ITPoE is a single song that has 2 parts that can also stand alone as individual songs giving the context.
/thread
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Oh Jay, if only it was that easy.
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We don't know everything is on their minds, so about some stuff we can easily use our free expresion ability to have a posture about unclear things like these..
But that's the thing, though: there is nothing unclear about this matter at all. The band themselves have said it is one song. That's it. Period. They wrote the song, they get to say what it is. Bosk already pointed out that the only reason why it was divided into two tracks was because the band could not decide if it was better to have it at the beginning or end of the album. Their decision had nothing to do with making ITPOE into two distinct "songs", and was done purely for the sake of album flow.
There is no room for debate about this. The artists who created the piece have said what it is, and, as the creators, they are the ones who get to define the nature of their work. It's one song, two tracks. That's it.
Once again, this is correct. It is not even debatable once you know that the band has weighed in on the subject. It is only unclear to those who do not know the history of the song and simply see two separate tracks on the album. But knowing what the band have said about it, there is no argument that can be made to the contrary. It is objective, provable fact.
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ITPoE is a single song that has 2 parts that can also stand alone as individual songs giving the context.
/offtopicdiscussion
FTFY
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ITPoE is a single song that has 2 parts that can also stand alone as individual songs giving the context.
/offtopicdiscussion
FTFY
:tup
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Treating ITPOE as one song:
7) Constant Motion
6) Prophets of Ware
5) Repentance
4) The Ministry of Lost Souls
3) The Dark Eternal Night
2) Forsaken
1) In the Presence of Enemies
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Well, I was going to post my rankings but now I just can't decide which song I like more. ITPOE or ITPOE. :-\ :lol :p
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:rollin
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7. The Ministry of Lost Souls- Never got into this song. It feels even longer than it is and it doesn't really do anything for me.
6. Repentance- It's ok, but by far the weakest in 12 Step Suite.
5. Constant motion- I used to love it but it's WAY overplayed for me.
4. Prophets of War- Decent song I guess. No real feelings on it either way.
3. Forsaken- Good song, very catchy, very solid. Nice break from the epics.
2. In the Presence of Enemies- I prefer Part 1 to Part 2 but it's still a great song nonetheless.
1. The Dark Eternal Night- You guys are gonna hate me. I just love this song. Easily top 50 for me. It is so cheesy that it's amazing. Love the vocals, the riffs, the instrumental section, love it all. Sorry guys.
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Hey, TDEN did what it tried to do perfectly. And the instrumental section is admittedly great.
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Hey, TDEN did what it tried to do perfectly. And the instrumental section is admittedly great.
This. I don't get the hate for TDEN, great break from all the seriousness, and face it, when you hear this live, you are going apeshit whether you like the song or not.
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I fake vomited the last time I heard TDEN live. I do not like the song, to me it is a mis-mash of stuff that doesn't work (choruses, instrumental section), with some stuff isn't bad (verses, intro and breakdown riff) with a bass drum that is way too hot on the album.
Sorry, not my thing at all. I can also get why others like it. I cannot say it will never be my thing, but I do not go crazy when I hear it live. It is bottom five DT song for me, and I honestly cannot think of anything better than it at this moment. :(
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1. The Dark Eternal Night- You guys are gonna hate me. I just love this song. Easily top 50 for me. It is so cheesy that it's amazing. Love the vocals, the riffs, the instrumental section, love it all. Sorry guys.
Don't worry. I consider TDEN to be a top 10 DT song.
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You guys are gonna hate me
:tup :-*
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1. In the Presence of Enemies
2. The Dark Eternal Night
3. Constant Motion
4. The Ministry of Lost Souls
5. Repentance
6. Forsaken
7. Prophets of War
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7. The Dark Eternal Night
6. Forsaken
5. Prophets of War
4. Constant Motion
3. Repentance
2. The Ministry of Lost Souls
1. In the Presence of Enemies
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Hi, mine is:
7. Prophets of War (the only song I seriously dislike)
6. Repentance (it's nice, atmospheric, it's something different for a change, but it kind of drags after a while and the "spoken apology" section was never my favourite, the guys involved notwithstanding)
5. Forsaken (Yeah, Twilight, babyyy! :metal )
4. Ministry of Lost Souls
3. Constant Motion
2. Dark Eternal Night
1. In the Presence of Enemies (as a whole, but if forced to pick the part I like better, it would be probably, probably the second one)
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Hmm interesting one to rank...
8. Repentance - I can appreciate this song for what it is, a bit of a breather amongst the freneticism of the rest of the AA suite, it's kinda a nice lull when you listen to the suite as a whole but I find it pretty boring in itself.
7. Constant Motion - I don't actively dislike this either, for what it is it's great, but it doesn't make me feel a whole lot.
6. Ministry of Lost Souls - I really dislike the opening to this track and the whole ballady chorus stuff going on but the instrumental section is really good, not their best by a long shot but very enjoyable. I'd just never choose to go and put it on. In fact I hardly ever listen to it.
5. The Dark Eternal Night - Great track, DT at their most fun, I really dig it. It's hard and bouncy and doesn't take itself too seriously. Although I genuinely can't listen to it without hearing the Mario Bros mash up in my mind anymore :(
4. Forsaken - I actually love this song, to me it's always been about DT scrapping their progressive side and simply writing a straight forward nu-metal style heavy ballad, but doing it unbelievably well. For people who think DT's music is a needlessly complex exercise in showing off, I would show them this song and how even when constraining themselves to five minutes, they can still write a great song.
3. Prophets of War - I love this track, it's something really different, it's very Muse, I find it really uplifting and powerful, I still remember back when they were recording this and got a load of fans in to do the 'TIME FOR CHANGE' stuff, it gives it a real emotional edge for me to to think of how awesome it must be for all those people to have been commemorated forever in one of our favourite bands' songs.
2. In the Presence of Enemies Part 1 - one of my favourite DT epics, and easily one of my favourite DT album openers in their whole catalogue. From the minute I heard the first twenty seconds of this track I knew this album was gonna be killer. I love everything about this song, I can't even begin to go into it because nothing short of a second by second detailed analysis would do it justice :P whenever I listen to this song I'm consumed with shivers, I genuinely don't get why it's not more well regarded within their body of music but each to their own.
1. In the Presence of Enemies Part 2 - Part 2 I love even more than Part 1 purely for the section from about 6 minutes onward, it's freakin' genius, there is so much tension, so much driving force behind the music, the guitar work between the vocal parts falling away to chugging above these awesome cheesy metal lyrics about cups overflowing with blood... I cannot listen to this track and not get a lump in my throat. From the second that midsection begins I'm working up to the culmination right before the instrumental section which blows my mind. This to me is DT very close to being at their finest. DT have always been my favourite band for how intensely they make me feel and this is one of those parts of their songs that drives me closer to how I imagine people feel when they say they had a spiritual experience than pretty much anything else I've ever experienced. It's perfect.
All in all the whole album ranks pretty highly in my overall DT album ranking, I know loads of people were disappointed but it's a great collection of enjoyable tracks, most of it nothing too special overall but ITPOE pushes it up there and makes it indispensable for me.
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Ok, rankings are finally in. Explanations are short and to the point.
7. Prophets of War – It’s just a bad song. No other way to describe it.
6. Repentance – Don’t care for it that much, except the JP solo has some redeeming qualities.
5. The Dark Eternal Night – It’s a fun song and JP shreds faster than the speed of light. Crazy!
4. Constant Motion – Another really fun song. Great riffs and overall composition, but the chorus is slightly lacking. Still good.
3. Forsaken – Another great riff and JP solo. The chorus is pretty cool too.
2. In The Presence of Enemies – Overall great epic, although part 2 doesn’t do a lot for me in comparison to part 1. It could’ve been presented better as one track.
1. The Ministry of Lost Souls – Yes, this is the best song on the album. No, the instrumental section is not out of place or unnecessary and the outro is nothing short of legendary. This song would’ve been an excellent closer.
-AAgent66
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1. The Dark Eternal Night
2. Constant Motion
3. In the Presence of Enemies
4. Forsaken
5. Prophets of War
6. Ministry of Lost Souls
7. Repentance
Ranking subject to change often. I :heart this album! :smiley:
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1. The Ministry of Lost Souls – Yes, this is the best song on the album. No, the instrumental section is not out of place or unnecessary and the outro is nothing short of legendary. This song would’ve been an excellent closer.
-AAgent66
While I don't agree about the song ranking, I can agree about the instrumental section plus it as a closer. As I combined those two completely different songs together, and it opens the album, TMOLS is of course ending the album. JPs solo on the theme or whatever is epic, and works perfectly to gently close the album.