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Dream Theater => Dream Theater => Topic started by: RoeDent on June 07, 2015, 08:54:29 AM
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Today (June 7th) marks 10 years since the release of DT's 8th studio album, Octavarium. Reflections and thoughts on this milestone?
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Damn, has it really been that long? It seems like only yesterday we were experiencing the joy that was the Octavarium sub forum.
The last of their albums before moving to RR, their 20th aniversary, it feels like the end of that era, and is probably the last DT album I still consider really great.
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It was an end of an era, definitely bookended by Score.
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It was a grower for me. When I first heard it, I liked it, but I remember distinctly having a conversation with Setlist Scotty where I said that I really liked it, but it felt like "DT by the numbers"...
But I think that was just me being a bit burnt out after being a full on fanboy for over 15 years non-stop. I went through the same thing with Rush. But Octavarium ended up being *the* album that reminded me of why I loved DT so much. It was the culmination of everything they achieved to that point. It is a very literal snapshot of every facet of Dream Theater....and tied together with a concept! It has the epic moments, the poppy moments, the hooks, a touch of thrash, a touch of mellow, a touch of the dramatic, more 'nuggetz' than any other DT album by far, and topped off with their greatest epic ever....which on top of being a fantastic song in its own right, carries the added bonus of tying the entire concept together.
This album is the single greatest representation of who Dream Theater is. If someone wants to know what DT is all about, I immediately go for this album.
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The title track was the song that got me hooked on DT. It was an incredible moment, especially hearing Razor's Edge for the first time. It ended up being my first DT album bought as well, along with SFAM.
I absolutely love the concept behind this album, the way each song is in the next minor key up the scale, with 5 interludes representing the 'black' keys.
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Damn, has it really been that long? It seems like only yesterday we were experiencing the joy that was the Octavarium sub forum.
The last of their albums before moving to RR, their 20th aniversary, it feels like the end of that era, and is probably the last DT album I still consider really great.
i agree with that but I think that A Dramatic Turn Of Events was a good return to form - albeit without the stellar production.
Still my absolute favourite Dream Theater album by miles. :metal :corn :corn happy 10th birthday Octavarium !!!
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A looot of time!
I remember when this album came out, it was strangely popular here in Chile. You could hear them on radio stations that in other cases would never play DT. There was even a local tv series that used a lot of Octavarium songs in its soundtrack. I remember hearing TROAL, NE and Octavarium's intro.
Time has passed and this album still amazes me with each time I listen it.
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I think it was this album that got me out of the habit of looking for/expecting a classic (to me) DT album experience. I figured that after that many years of greatness, it was just too much to expect. From this one on, I simply looked for 2-4 classic songs to add to the pantheon and a couple more good ones.
Oddly enough, DT13 was for me once again a classic album experience, so I'm not sure where my expectations should lie now LOL.
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When I first heard this album I thought it was boring as hell. Eventually it grew on me, and now I quite like it.
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Favorite song from Octavarium: These Walls. Great and catchy chrous, one of my fav JP solos (very few notes) and the lyrics are pretty strong as well.
When MP released a teaser, he played the intro to Never Enough. Was so pumped because it sounded so different from what DT had ever done. But overall, the song Never Enough was a disappointment, although it did grow on me over time. Octavarium the song, just doesn't do it for me. I like the Score version but other than that, I just didn't feel it with this one. This album would be perfect for me without Panic Attack and the title track but that would remove about 30 something minutes of DT music :rollin
I consider this album in the middle of the pack in the DT catalogue.
Also, this was the last album recorded at the legendary studio "The Hit Factory" and was mixed by Michael Brauer, which was a departure from in the engineering department from Kevin Shirley as the mixing engineering and long time recorder engineer Doug Oberkircher.
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Probably my second-least favourite DT album, but it definitely has some awesome songs. These Walls, The Root of All Evil and Sacrificed Sons are all great. The others, not so much.
However, I will concede that it sounds stellar. I'm not usually one to notice production, unless it is extraordinarly good or bad, but the sound of Octavarium has always stood out to me - imo their finest-sounding album, along with FII. It's just a shame that the music isn't as good in my opinion.
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The sounds Rudess plays on this album are incredible. (These Walls, Never Enough, etc) Portnoy's Drums sound is great and natural. The whole album is great. The intro to the song Octavarium is phenomenal. The live version of that song on Score is a great performance. It's got everything, continuum, modular synth, 12 string guitar.
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It's definitely debatable whether or not it's their best album, but for me personally it's my favorite DT album but partially for a selfish sentimental reason as along with SFAM, I&W and the then recent ADTOE, were among the first DT albums I listened to when discovering the band almost 3 years ago. SFAM and Octavarium being the two that made me fall in love with the band. That said, I think that the songs range from great to pantheon-like status with the title track being one of my all time favorite songs both DT and in general.
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Images and Words will always be my favorite DT album, if only for sentimental reasons (I first hopped on the DT bandwagon back in '92 upon hearing it in it's entirety for the first time), but Octavarium is very close. I'm a melody guy, and while I'm not always keen on the things he says/does, I think James' voice is integral to the sound of DT, and so when he sings, I mean really sings, it is magic to me.
I don't particularly care to pull the melodies out from among the grunts and growls and metal vocals (which seemed like had to be done more and more starting with the next one). I like SC and BC&SL a lot (more than most here, it seems) but Octavarium was the last truly epic, truly great from start to finish ALBUM.
(And seeing as "To Live Forever" is in my Top 10 DT songs of all time, it shouldn't surprise that I LOVE "I Walk Beside You", also in my top 10).
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Progression...
-Loved the album when it came out and played the crap out of it. My daughter also loved parts of it so we got to share DT for the first time.
-Soon after the spins began I started thinking DT flew way too close to inspiration corner for my personal comfort. I love MP but I think
he was almost totally immersed with Muse at this point in time and it was really evident to me.
-Still love These Walls, Panic Attack and I Walk Beside You. I can pass on most of the rest of it. In any updated rankings this would be
3rd from the bottom for me.
Glad so many people really love it though. I thought it was a grand concept and executed well but as time passed I lost my initial
connection with this one.
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For me, the title track is stellar, there are a couple of other good songs, and the rest of the album is mediocre at best and forgettable at worst.
Overall, I'm not a huge fan of this album. But the tour was awesome.
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Octavarium is a fantastic live album.
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Oddly enough, DT13 was for me once again a classic album experience, so I'm not sure where my expectations should lie now LOL.
please tell us how is dt13
:angel:
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This was the last time DT did something truly amazing (the title track, of course).
Although the album is not as strong as Octavarium (the song), it still is one of the last times DT went out of its comfort zone and did something different sound-wise.
10 years seems like such a long time. :sadpanda:
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This album was my introduction to the band and it'll always be a little special to me for that reason. It used to be my third favourite DT album, but it's dropped a little recently - probably 5th or 6th nowadays.
It suffers a little having 4 average (to me) tracks in These Walls, Never Enough, The Answer Lies Within and I Walk Beside You. But the other 4 songs are all great - the title track is still my third favourite DT song and I'm still in awe of how they crafted such a brilliant piece of music.
Pretty good album sonically as well, better than anything they've done since in that regard.
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(A copy of my post in the thread on MP's forum):
I usually list this at the bottom of the Labrie-era albums (WDADU will forever be last I'm afraid), so I gave it a listen on the way home today to see if anything has changed. And it's actually a much more enjoyable listen than I remember it being.
I think the main 'problem' for me was my hopes and expectations when it came out. I was in a metal phase and I loved their previous album, Train of Thought. Octavarium was a pretty big departure from the feel of that one.
But listening again, some thoughts:
The Root of All Evil: good opening rocker, some nice melodic nods to the title track to come. Not keen on Jordan's solo, but I rarely am when he's playing anything other than the piano.
The Answer Lies Within: probably my favourite on the album, but then I'm a sucker for simple piano ballads. Nice melodies.
These Walls: better than I remembered. Catchy tune.
I Walk Beside You: works very well live, if Score is anything to go by. Studio version nothing special, but nice enough, in particular the chorus.
Panic Attack: also better than I remembered, some nice work towards the end, very impressive guitar solos.
Never Enough: musically fine, but lyrically a bit annoying. Critics of the lyrics often get sternly reminded that "It's not about ALL fans, it's about a tiny section of fans who demand the earth!" That to me just makes it even more absurdly ironic. A song about valuing what you have and not just seeing only the negative...is aimed with vitriolic rage at a tiny section of an otherwise fiercely supportive and appreciative fanbase? Everything is indeed never enough! But anyway, nice music and great unison part at the end.
Sacrificed Sons: another song which was much better than I remembered. Kind of like a much more tasteful version of Presence of Enemies Part 2, with its slow build-up and long instrumental section. Probably 2nd favourite track on the album.
Octavarium: not my favourite of their epics (probably number 4, behind Count, Change and Theory). I love around 10 minutes of this piece, like another 5, and find myself a bit bored by the rest.
On the whole though, a very good album. The concept sounds very clever, although to a musical numbskull like me, who barely even knows (or cares) what a time signature is, it's lost. But what I hears, I likes. That it's last on my list of their albums isn't a criticism of Octavarium but a compliment to how strong their catalogue is.
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This is my Images and Words and Panic Attack is my Pull Me Under. I first heard PA when playing Rock Band 2 and was completely blown away by it. I had never heard anything like it in my life. I bought the album and loved it although I never had time to listen to the title track. One day I finally did and that was the moment I became a true fan of the band. There's comes a few times where people have a life changing experience whether it be good or bad. Hearing the song Octavarium was one of those great life changing moments for me. While I didn't hear the album when it first came out, this is my first DT album and without it I wouldn't be the fanatic I am today. I have it ranked third (no amount of sentimentality can put something on top of IaW and SFaM) but it is by far the most important album to me and the one that means the most to me. It's funny because back when the rhythm games where at their peak (around when Rock Band 2 and Guitar Hero: World Tour were released), people used to use the insult of "Guitar Hero fan" or "Rock Band fan" which meant that you became a fan of an artist through hearing their music in a game or that you only knew the songs in the games. Well me hearing Panic Attack in a video game lead to Dream Theater becoming my favorite band. But that wouldn't have been possible without the release of Octavarium so happy birthday to one of the most amazing albums I have ever heard. Now hopefully on the next tour the band celebrates this album as well.
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Wow, has it already been 10 years of arguing whether or not it's a concept album, and then arguing what a concept album REALLY is?! :rollin
Seriously though, this is a great album and was the band's first new studio album after I became a fan, and BOY what an album to come in to! This was and has been a favorite of mine by the band and I just spun it earlier at work, actually, and it still sounds as good as I remember. It's got a bit of everything for DT's fans, and is a good reflection on what the band had done up to that point.
I remember going through the lyrics of the title track and picking out all the clever lyrics in the third part "Full Circle" and figuring out what they all meant. I remember being impressed at the amount of thought that went in to piecing together the concept, from the changing keys of the songs along the F-scale, to the fact that "Octavarium" has parts I-V and that it cycles back to TROAE, which has parts VI-VII, albeit for a different reason, but it just worked out so WELL! Everything fit together like a puzzle, and while it was the end of their prior contract before moving in with RR, it was a peak (especially in the sense that since SFAM, they had 6-7-8-7-6 tracks with this album being the literal peak) that was hard to top, and I think SC suffered a bit from having to follow up 8VM.
-Marc.
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For me, the title track is stellar, there are a couple of other good songs, and the rest of the album is mediocre at best and forgettable at worst.
Overall, I'm not a huge fan of this album. But the tour was awesome.
Octavarium is the only DT album I can EASILY listen to from beginning to end and
a.) not get bored or
b.) go - oh crap it's this song.
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I do both of those things when listening to this album from beginning to end.
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YOU GO GIRL.
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YOU GO GIRL.
(https://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i238/hefdaddy42/funny/monalol_zpsc0zevd6u.gif)
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Wow, has it already been 10 years of arguing whether or not it's a concept album, and then arguing what a concept album REALLY is?! :rollin
While we're discussing the "concept", I came up with the hypothesis a little while back that every song on the album quotes the title track in some way, but I still can't find any strong enough connection for These Walls and Sacrificed Sons. Every other songs seems to have some connection, some which I didn't even notice until relatively very recently.
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That's neat-o . post what you did find !
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I just realized I forgot all about Never Enough (can you blame me). I'll have to check that one for connections too.
TROAE is an obvious one with the piano outro section, as is TALW with the strings melody quoting the same melody. The slightly less obvious ones are Panic Attack and I Walk Beside You, which I don't see mentioned much if at all. Both of them also use variations of that main melody section (the one that is introduced at 3:50 in Octavarium, since it has a few).
The second half of IWBY's chorus utilizes the chord progression and partial melody of the second half of the Octavarium melody, with the chord progression of 1, 6m, 6M, 4, which is unique in its use of both the major and minor 6th notes. The first part of the melody over that section ("through all that may come....."), is following the same basic descending line of 5 3M 2 1 that the Octavarium melody does, although it keeps to major rather than alternating to the minor variant (Octavarium plays both major and minor key variants of that basic 4 note melody in alternating bars).
Panic Attack also references this same section for its pre-chorus. The first time we hear the full 8 bar pre-chorus, each bar follows the basic chord progression of 1, 1, 1, 1 / 1, 6m, 6M (last bar is the fill so I can't establish a root note here), virtually identical to the chord progression used during the Medicate chorus, which is 1, 1, 1, 1 / 1, 6m, 6M, 4. The keyboard melody played over the pre-chorus also starts with the familiar line of 5 3m 2 1, but in this case sticking purely to the minor key variation rather than beginning with the major variant, and then varies the melody in different ways to Octavarium, but using the same general pattern.
That leaves These Walls, Never Enough and Sacrificed Sons that I haven't found any link in yet. Maybe there isn't one at all, but I wouldn't be surprised if DT made sure to include some subtle reference given how much effort was put into the overall package.
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That was when I started to dig into DT. It doesn't feel that all this time has passed already, cause I still feel the same way when I listen to the title track, These Walls and Panic Attack: Amazed :hefdaddy
And Sacrificed Sons :heart
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I'd like an interview with the band explaining the whole Octavarium concept and what was the germ of the idea - how they wrote each song with the theme in mind etc.
Did they write a couple of songs and realise they were in minor keys a tone apart and then try to write a song in every minor key for example ?
Why did they choose F as the root note ? Any particular reason ?
The 8th letter of the Alphabet is "H" - and "H" is the key of B in German notation. They could have based it around Bminor :P
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I'd like an interview with the band explaining the whole Octavarium concept and what was the germ of the idea - how they wrote each song with the theme in mind etc.
Did they write a couple of songs and realise they were in minor keys a tone apart and then try to write a song in every minor key for example ?
Why did they choose F as the root note ? Any particular reason ?
The 8th letter of the Alphabet is "H" - and "H" is the key of B in German notation. They could have based it around Bminor :P
I think I recall an interview where they said it was in F simply because it continues on from ToT, and ITNOG happens to end on the F. I'd like to hear more about how the whole idea came together. It's not that hard to modulate a song to fit though.
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I think I recall an interview where they said it was in F simply because it continues on from ToT, and ITNOG happens to end on the F. I'd like to hear more about how the whole idea came together. It's not that hard to modulate a song to fit though.
Yes; the last note of 6D is the first note of "As I Am" on ToT, and the last note of "In The Name of God" on ToT is the first note of "The Root Of All Evil" on O8 (and because of the cycle, the last note of O8 the song). I seem to remember that one perk of the cycle was breaking that need to tie everything together (which had actually gone back to SFAM).
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I like but don't love the album, placing it middle of the pack in the DT discography. I consider "The Root of All Evil" to be one of the band's very best, but I think that there are too many ballads and mid-tempo songs on the album, although none of them are really terrible. "The Answer Lies Within" is wimpy, but if I'm in a particularly reflective mood it's okay. "These Walls," for a mid-tempo song, is good, especially on the Luna Park version. I actually like "I Walk Beside You," even though I agree with many people on this forum that it sounds like something U2 or Coldplay would write (that's okay, since I like much of both bands' material, especially the former). "Panic Attack" was fun to play on Rock Band with my friends years ago, but it's not a song I ever listen to on its own. "Never Enough" is a chore to get through. And "Sacrificed Sons" is wishy-washy, but I know what it meant to the band as native Long Islanders in the wake of 9/11, and it was something that they had to get out of their systems. I view it as the heavier, unplayed answer to Live's "Overcome," even though it was written four years later, with similar file footage of fire fighters and dust-covered survivors.
As for the title track, I find it to be a disjointed mess. I got ridiculed for my position on the "Worst Track of Every Album" thread, but I do not like how they mashed together completely unrelated movements instead of fleshing them out into separate songs. It's as if they had leaked news that they were making the "quintessential Dream Theater album" and then felt obligated to close it with one of their big epics at all costs, even if they didn't have the material. Someone Like Him and Medicate are both good on their own, but have nothing seemingly to do with each other. I always hated the Full Circle section, which I just found to be a Portnoy shoutout to his favorite bands and then plucking random words out of the air to make them fit (Owen Wilson Phillips, e.g.). Intervals I find to be a waste of time, and the band has pretty much lost me by the time they reference back to Someone Like Him with Razor's Edge. I like the concept of having different band members write lyrics to different movements, but the individual movements should have had something in common with the other ones, like on "Six Degrees," and the rest of the band should have spurred John Myung into writing lyrics on one of the movements (since all of his lyrics are great), which would have spared us from either or both of Portnoy's sections.
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10 years... jeeez.... Octavarium got me into Dream Theater. I still think it is their best song! Gonna have to listen now :) *raises glass*
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To me, it's crazy to think that when this album came out, I thought it was a really nice bounce back after the largely disappointing Train of Thought, but as time went on, I realized that 8V wasn't that great except for the title track, and Train of Thought is an album I now consider not only good, but superior to its successor.
I still love the title track to pieces, though. Definitely a top 20 DT tune. :tup :tup
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To me, it's crazy to think that when this album came out, I thought it was a really nice bounce back after the largely disappointing Train of Thought, but as time went on, I realized that 8V wasn't that great except for the title track, and Train of Thought is an album I now consider not only good, but superior to its successor.
I still love the title track to pieces, though. Definitely a top 20 DT tune. :tup :tup
All of this, for sure.
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Love this album! Happy 10th 8V! This is the first album of DTs my xgirlfriend would listen to; mainly I Walk Beside You she liked. I thought the album was refreshing. I still remember MP saying it was the album you could share and say "this is what Dream Theater is all about!"
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As for the title track, I find it to be a disjointed mess. I got ridiculed for my position on the "Worst Track of Every Album" thread, but I do not like how they mashed together completely unrelated movements instead of fleshing them out into separate songs. It's as if they had leaked news that they were making the "quintessential Dream Theater album" and then felt obligated to close it with one of their big epics at all costs, even if they didn't have the material. Someone Like Him and Medicate are both good on their own, but have nothing seemingly to do with each other. I always hated the Full Circle section, which I just found to be a Portnoy shoutout to his favorite bands and then plucking random words out of the air to make them fit (Owen Wilson Phillips, e.g.). Intervals I find to be a waste of time, and the band has pretty much lost me by the time they reference back to Someone Like Him with Razor's Edge. I like the concept of having different band members write lyrics to different movements, but the individual movements should have had something in common with the other ones, like on "Six Degrees," and the rest of the band should have spurred John Myung into writing lyrics on one of the movements (since all of his lyrics are great), which would have spared us from either or both of Portnoy's sections.
Wow, I disagree with almost all of that. There is very little that is disjointed about the song. The parts really go together very well. From your descriptions, it almost seems like you don't really understand some of the sections. For instance, the "Portnoy shoutouts to his favorite bands" and "picking random words out of the air" section--that isn't what is going on there.
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Then enlighten me, Bosk.
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:corn
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Wow. Just wow.
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(https://i583.photobucket.com/albums/ss272/kingshmegland/49861618_zpsiielzywb.jpg) (https://s583.photobucket.com/user/kingshmegland/media/49861618_zpsiielzywb.jpg.html)
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I didn't discover Octavarium until I discovered Dream Theater (late '06/early '07)...
But when I did, it was when i was at the height of my obsession when it comes to albums and concepts and what not.
SO MANY NUGGETS
It was perfection in my eyes.
Now today it's not my favourite DT album, but there's nothing on there that disappoints (except MAYBE SS). I love just popping on headphones and immersing myself.
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I just listened to this album all the way through for the first time in months and it definitely still holds up. Every song is great and unique, the production is beautiful especially compared to the next four albums, and it flows so well. It's almost flawless.
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I just listened to this album all the way through for the first time in months and it definitely still holds up. Every song is great and unique, the production is beautiful especially compared to the next four albums, and it flows so well. It's almost flawless.
THANK you.
It's easily better than Systematic Chaos and Black Clouds in my opinion. i think if A Dramatic Turn Of Events had similar sonics - it would be up there too.
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I like but don't love the album, placing it middle of the pack in the DT discography. I consider "The Root of All Evil" to be one of the band's very best, but I think that there are too many ballads and mid-tempo songs on the album, although none of them are really terrible. "The Answer Lies Within" is wimpy, but if I'm in a particularly reflective mood it's okay. "These Walls," for a mid-tempo song, is good, especially on the Luna Park version. I actually like "I Walk Beside You," even though I agree with many people on this forum that it sounds like something U2 or Coldplay would write (that's okay, since I like much of both bands' material, especially the former). "Panic Attack" was fun to play on Rock Band with my friends years ago, but it's not a song I ever listen to on its own. "Never Enough" is a chore to get through. And "Sacrificed Sons" is wishy-washy, but I know what it meant to the band as native Long Islanders in the wake of 9/11, and it was something that they had to get out of their systems. I view it as the heavier, unplayed answer to Live's "Overcome," even though it was written four years later, with similar file footage of fire fighters and dust-covered survivors.
As for the title track, I find it to be a disjointed mess. I got ridiculed for my position on the "Worst Track of Every Album" thread, but I do not like how they mashed together completely unrelated movements instead of fleshing them out into separate songs. It's as if they had leaked news that they were making the "quintessential Dream Theater album" and then felt obligated to close it with one of their big epics at all costs, even if they didn't have the material. Someone Like Him and Medicate are both good on their own, but have nothing seemingly to do with each other. I always hated the Full Circle section, which I just found to be a Portnoy shoutout to his favorite bands and then plucking random words out of the air to make them fit (Owen Wilson Phillips, e.g.). Intervals I find to be a waste of time, and the band has pretty much lost me by the time they reference back to Someone Like Him with Razor's Edge. I like the concept of having different band members write lyrics to different movements, but the individual movements should have had something in common with the other ones, like on "Six Degrees," and the rest of the band should have spurred John Myung into writing lyrics on one of the movements (since all of his lyrics are great), which would have spared us from either or both of Portnoy's sections.
I disagree with a lot of what you said about the album but you are spot on with Full Circle. It is ridiculous to reference Wilson Phillips in a song just because its witty. I mean, on this same album Portnoy writes these awesome lyrics about losing control of himself due to alcoholism, LaBrie writes a very beautiful song questioning the humanity of people, Petrucci writes a thoughtful piece about trying to find inner strength to overcome obstacles, and Portnoy comes back at the end and references David Lee Roth, some Beatles songs, and a joke band the guys put together a few times?!?! WTF?
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As for the title track, I find it to be a disjointed mess. I got ridiculed for my position on the "Worst Track of Every Album" thread, but I do not like how they mashed together completely unrelated movements instead of fleshing them out into separate songs. It's as if they had leaked news that they were making the "quintessential Dream Theater album" and then felt obligated to close it with one of their big epics at all costs, even if they didn't have the material. Someone Like Him and Medicate are both good on their own, but have nothing seemingly to do with each other. I always hated the Full Circle section, which I just found to be a Portnoy shoutout to his favorite bands and then plucking random words out of the air to make them fit (Owen Wilson Phillips, e.g.). Intervals I find to be a waste of time, and the band has pretty much lost me by the time they reference back to Someone Like Him with Razor's Edge. I like the concept of having different band members write lyrics to different movements, but the individual movements should have had something in common with the other ones, like on "Six Degrees," and the rest of the band should have spurred John Myung into writing lyrics on one of the movements (since all of his lyrics are great), which would have spared us from either or both of Portnoy's sections.
Wow, I disagree with almost all of that. There is very little that is disjointed about the song. The parts really go together very well. From your descriptions, it almost seems like you don't really understand some of the sections. For instance, the "Portnoy shoutouts to his favorite bands" and "picking random words out of the air" section--that isn't what is going on there.
Somebody dislikes something that I like? Must be because he doesn't understand it, how could people possibly just have different tastes.
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When the majority like one song the minority could have the wrong opinion even though it it his or her own feeling. We are talking about a beloved song.
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When the majority like one song the minority could have the wrong opinion even though it it his or her own feeling. We are talking about a beloved song.
Opinions can only be "wrong" if they are founded on principles that can be proven false. There is a difference between the logical concepts of "soundness" and "validity." Just because the majority believe A to be case will never, ever mean that A is actually the case, and it gets even murkier when we're talking about aesthetic opinions.
Bosk's approach to mrrct's stated opinion was a productive way to discuss the song, and if mrrct was interested, I'm sure Bosk would be willing to cite evidence and reasoning as to why he believes what he does. Then, if it can be proven that mrrct's opinion is founded on objectively incorrect assumptions, then and only then is his opinion "wrong." If Bosk and mrrct are actually referring to the same objectively correct assumptions and still disagree, neither one of them is wrong.
tldr; Calling the minority wrong just because they disagree with a majority opinion is tantamount to silencing and is anti-productive with the aims of a discussion forum.
For what it's worth, I agree with Bosk, although I understand why it's easy to think that section is ridiculous.
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When a movie gets high ratings, it means it's a damn good movie and those who didn't like it are in the minority and are most likely wrong. It's their opinion but when a movie or a song is beloved, maybe your opinion is wrong. I what you are saying. In fact, I don't like Rap and that is beloved but it is different when it comes to tastes. I bet there are a ton or rap songs that are masterpieces but it's not my cup of tea.
I won't say that a beloved rap album like "The Chronic" has it faults because the majority is in the right for that instance.
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When a movie gets high ratings, it means it's a damn good movie and those who didn't like it are in the minority and are most likely wrong. It's their opinion but when a movie or a song is beloved, maybe your opinion is wrong. I what you are saying. In fact, I don't like Rap and that is beloved but it is different when it comes to tastes. I bet there are a ton or rap songs that are masterpieces but it's not my cup of tea.
I won't say that a beloved rap album like "The Chronic" has it faults because the majority is in the right for that instance.
No, just no. Just because an opinion is held by a majority doesn't make it objective or right. It just makes it a more widely held opinion.
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Thank you, Blob.
Not to derail the discussion about Octavarium, but - I understand what you're saying as well, but I think language like "wrong" here isn't the best way to go about things. What makes a "damn good movie"? Would it be a movie like Seppuku, renowned for its dissonant soundtrack, sharp and cold back and white cinematography, and cynicism about so-called samurai honor? Or is it a movie like Kurosawa's Dreams, renowned for its upbeat and classical soundtrack, warm and beautiful color cinematography, and bittersweet optimism about the concept of honor? Or what about a movie like Black Rain, not very well known and not considered Imamura Shohei's best, but still sharing many of the same objective qualities as Seppuku?
Seppuku and Dreams are both renowned, but for nearly opposite reasons. "Good art" is such a complicated concept that I personally believe I'm not capable of truly comprehending such a vast notion. I only like what I like, and make no further claims.
(Apologies for the obscure Japanese film references. It's the easiest thing for me to talk about. :P)
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If your telling me his thought process is correct on Octavarium then I'm telling you your are wrong also. I'm sorry but that is a masterpiece and 95% of the fans would say so. Most of the time the majority is right. It happens.
Hey, I have comments on music that I know I'm wrong about. I don't let it bother be because it's taste but minority in this case is right and he is wrong.
The end. :lol
I know stubborn jerk.
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Thank you, Blob.
Not to derail the discussion about Octavarium, but - I understand what you're saying as well, but I think language like "wrong" here isn't the best way to go about things. What makes a "damn good movie"? Would it be a movie like Seppuku, renowned for its dissonant soundtrack, sharp and cold back and white cinematography, and cynicism about so-called samurai honor? Or is it a movie like Kurosawa's Dreams, renowned for its upbeat and classical soundtrack, warm and beautiful color cinematography, and bittersweet optimism about the concept of honor? Or what about a movie like Black Rain, not very well known and not considered Imamura Shohei's best, but still sharing many of the same objective qualities as Seppuku?
All those movies are renowned, but for nearly opposite reasons. "Good art" is such a complicated concept that I personally believe I'm not capable of truly comprehending such a vast notion. I only like what I like, and make no further claims.
(Apologies for the obscure Japanese film references. It's the easiest thing for me to talk about. :P)
But they are beloved and the person who doesn't like the "artsy" movies can be wrong about how good these movies are because he or she are just not into it.
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Thank you, Blob.
Not to derail the discussion about Octavarium, but - I understand what you're saying as well, but I think language like "wrong" here isn't the best way to go about things. What makes a "damn good movie"? Would it be a movie like Seppuku, renowned for its dissonant soundtrack, sharp and cold back and white cinematography, and cynicism about so-called samurai honor? Or is it a movie like Kurosawa's Dreams, renowned for its upbeat and classical soundtrack, warm and beautiful color cinematography, and bittersweet optimism about the concept of honor? Or what about a movie like Black Rain, not very well known and not considered Imamura Shohei's best, but still sharing many of the same objective qualities as Seppuku?
All those movies are renowned, but for nearly opposite reasons. "Good art" is such a complicated concept that I personally believe I'm not capable of truly comprehending such a vast notion. I only like what I like, and make no further claims.
(Apologies for the obscure Japanese film references. It's the easiest thing for me to talk about. :P)
But they are beloved and the person who doesn't like the "artsy" movies can be wrong about how good these movies are because he or she are just not into it.
No, because it just means they don't like artsy movies. That's fine. Someone who doesn't like sweet food isn't "wrong." It just means they don't like it. Beautiful cinematography does not make a "good" movie. Nothing does. Everything is just opinion. You'd be wrong if you denied some objective fact about the movie - that's it.
Anyway, gotta go back to work, ha ha.
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If your telling me his thought process is correct on Octavarium then I'm telling you your are wrong also. I'm sorry but that is a masterpiece and 95% of the fans would say so. Most of the time the majority is right. It happens.
Hey, I have comments on music that I know I'm wrong about. I don't let it bother be because it's taste but minority in this case is right and he is wrong.
The end. :lol
I know stubborn jerk.
Hey, I absolutely agree that Octavarium is a masterpiece, but I'll always defend that art is entirely subjective, and no opinion is right or wrong, no matter how wrong I personally think it is. :lol
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:biggrin:
I get a kick when people get upset about objective. Were talking "LOTR" here of music. Not "The Room" of music.
I get the middle of the ground where it's 50/50 and it becomes subjective but when so many love it. You might be in the wrong that it's not a good song or a movie.
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I actually find LOTR pretty boring, whereas The Room entertains me.
But of course that means that my opinion is wrong or something so I guess I'll just feel bad about myself and go cry in a corner, or whatever it is that you deem to be the objectively correct course of action.
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Here comes the good old objective vs. subjective debate again.
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I actually find LOTR pretty boring, whereas The Room entertains me.
But of course that means that my opinion is wrong or something so I guess I'll just feel bad about myself and go cry in a corner, or whatever it is that you deem to be the objectively correct course of action.
Again you are wrong. :biggrin:
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I also have fun watching bad movies. But I know they are bad. While a great movie may not be your cup of tea.
I think we can all agree that LOTR is well made. You may not like it's style but it is well made.
Now, The Room is a poorly made movie but I can still watch it for the shits and giggles aspect of it. It's still poorly made.
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Ok.
When I go to see a movie, there is one criterion by which I judge it, and one criterion only: was I entertained? Many other things play into that, certainly, but that's what it comes down to.
Now, Lord of the Rings. I find it well-done, superbly filmed and acted, but the story bores me to tears and I find the characterisation for the majority of the characters to be lacking depth. Therefore, even though I can appreciate the visuals and the effort that went into making the movie, it does not entertain me.
The Room, on the other hand, is batshit insane. It is disjointed, badly acted in places and there is not really all that much of a plot at all. However, this does not matter to me because watching The Room means that I will laugh, and I will laugh a lot. Therefore, it entertains me, and I prefer it over LotR.
Why is this way of looking at movies (and, by extension, at music) wrong?
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How you explained The Room is how that poster talked about Octavarium. We all know the room is just plain bad but you can enjoy it. Do you look at Octavarium as a poorly made song? I think not. there are many other DT songs I can say that about. That's my point. He is in the minority thinking it's a poorly crafted song. I think the majority think he is wrong. The majority loves the song. So I say he is wrong for saying that it's poorly structured. If he came out and just said I don't like the song, I'd get that but it is not a poorly crafted song.
I hope that makes more sense.
Hey! This comming from a guy that would watch Killer Clowns From Outer Space every week! :lol
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But what makes a song well-crafted and poorly-crafted is subjective too. Why does it suddenly cease to be opinions to you and become a matter of right and wrong the moment somebody says "I dislike this song because I find it poorly structured" instead of "I don't like it"?
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When I go to see a movie, there is one criterion by which I judge it, and one criterion only: was I entertained? Many other things play into that, certainly, but that's what it comes down to.
Now, Lord of the Rings. I find it well-done, superbly filmed and acted, but the story bores me to tears.
:hifive:
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8vm was the first DT album I skipped tracks on. Once TRoAE has passed, I go right away to Panic Attack. The 5 tracks I listen to are fairly good though. 8vm the song is fantastic, everything I could ask of a DT track.
B.Lee
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I don't think it's subjective at all. We can all tell when a movie was crafted well, average or poorly done. why is it so hard to tell? I don't think so at all.
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As for the title track, I find it to be a disjointed mess. I got ridiculed for my position on the "Worst Track of Every Album" thread, but I do not like how they mashed together completely unrelated movements instead of fleshing them out into separate songs. It's as if they had leaked news that they were making the "quintessential Dream Theater album" and then felt obligated to close it with one of their big epics at all costs, even if they didn't have the material. Someone Like Him and Medicate are both good on their own, but have nothing seemingly to do with each other. I always hated the Full Circle section, which I just found to be a Portnoy shoutout to his favorite bands and then plucking random words out of the air to make them fit (Owen Wilson Phillips, e.g.). Intervals I find to be a waste of time, and the band has pretty much lost me by the time they reference back to Someone Like Him with Razor's Edge. I like the concept of having different band members write lyrics to different movements, but the individual movements should have had something in common with the other ones, like on "Six Degrees," and the rest of the band should have spurred John Myung into writing lyrics on one of the movements (since all of his lyrics are great), which would have spared us from either or both of Portnoy's sections.
Wow, I disagree with almost all of that. There is very little that is disjointed about the song. The parts really go together very well. From your descriptions, it almost seems like you don't really understand some of the sections. For instance, the "Portnoy shoutouts to his favorite bands" and "picking random words out of the air" section--that isn't what is going on there.
Somebody dislikes something that I like? Must be because he doesn't understand it, how could people possibly just have different tastes.
Well, sorry, but that's a really dumb thing to say that has nothing to do with my post. People are free to like or dislike whatever. That isn't the issue. The issue is with calling Octavarium "disjointed" and saying full circle is "pulling random words out of thin air." Both statements are incorrect. But that doesn't somehow limit his freedom to like or dislike the song as he chooses. Get over yourself.
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Exactly. He's in the minority of saying that and I believe he is wrong. Now not liking the song I get.
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I guess we just have different operational definitions of what "rightness" and "wrongness" entail. Or we have the same definition with opposite opinions as to how it should be used.
I just fundamentally disagree that you can so easily tell a movie is "well crafted" and that the degree of such craftsmanship dictates how "good" or "bad" a movie is. I think it's a lot more complicated than that, and that richer and more inclusive discussions are possible when we throw away repressive fallacies like argumentum ad populum.
For example, perhaps we can shift the discussions towards how "well crafted" the song Octavarium is, and how that relates to a song like Illumination Theory. I remember a lot of people on this forum were upset by the transition from the orchestral section to Myung's bass. How does the transition from Someone Like Him to Medicate compare to that, for example, or does my question rest on unstable assumptions?
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I don't remember reading that anyone was "upset" by the transition in Illumination Theory. Some just did not like it (myself included). So, yes, I think your question does "rest on unstable assumptions."
For me, there is a big difference in the two transitions you mentioned. In Octavarium, each transition between movements ratchets the song up a notch in intensity. To this day, I still consider it quite a feat that the band was able to write such a long composition that unwaveringly continues to build in intensity from start to finish. With Illumination Theory, the transition you mentioned stops the song's momentum dead in its tracks, which is quite jarring despite the fact that the transition itself is relatively smooth. I think for a lot of folks, that is why the transition you mention in Octavarium has never been a problem, whereas the transition in Illumination Theory is difficult for many to adjust to.
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A good album, accompanied by a great live album. When I think 8VM, I immediately think Score, which is my favorite live DT release.
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For me, there is a big difference in the two transitions you mentioned. In Octavarium, each transition between movements ratchets the song up a notch in intensity. To this day, I still consider it quite a feat that the band was able to write such a long composition that unwaveringly continues to build in intensity from start to finish.
I absolutely, 100% could not agree more.
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As for the title track, I find it to be a disjointed mess. I got ridiculed for my position on the "Worst Track of Every Album" thread, but I do not like how they mashed together completely unrelated movements instead of fleshing them out into separate songs. It's as if they had leaked news that they were making the "quintessential Dream Theater album" and then felt obligated to close it with one of their big epics at all costs, even if they didn't have the material. Someone Like Him and Medicate are both good on their own, but have nothing seemingly to do with each other. I always hated the Full Circle section, which I just found to be a Portnoy shoutout to his favorite bands and then plucking random words out of the air to make them fit (Owen Wilson Phillips, e.g.). Intervals I find to be a waste of time, and the band has pretty much lost me by the time they reference back to Someone Like Him with Razor's Edge. I like the concept of having different band members write lyrics to different movements, but the individual movements should have had something in common with the other ones, like on "Six Degrees," and the rest of the band should have spurred John Myung into writing lyrics on one of the movements (since all of his lyrics are great), which would have spared us from either or both of Portnoy's sections.
Wow, I disagree with almost all of that. There is very little that is disjointed about the song. The parts really go together very well. From your descriptions, it almost seems like you don't really understand some of the sections. For instance, the "Portnoy shoutouts to his favorite bands" and "picking random words out of the air" section--that isn't what is going on there.
Somebody dislikes something that I like? Must be because he doesn't understand it, how could people possibly just have different tastes.
Well, sorry, but that's a really dumb thing to say that has nothing to do with my post. People are free to like or dislike whatever. That isn't the issue. The issue is with calling Octavarium "disjointed" and saying full circle is "pulling random words out of thin air." Both statements are incorrect. But that doesn't somehow limit his freedom to like or dislike the song as he chooses. Get over yourself.
Not really though. Because what one perceives as disjointed is an opinion, not a fact. So to say that somebody is wrong about having the opinion that something is disjointed in his/her eyes, that does come across as slightly high-and-mighty, even though I get that that wasn't your intention.
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Thank you Frank and Scorpion for your defenses and your understanding of the difference between opinion and fact. I specifically said that I find Octavarium to be a disjointed mess, not that it universally is one. I am far from the only person who holds this opinion. Several of my friends who have followed the band for over twenty years do not hold the song (or album, for that matter) in particularly high regard, it's just that they are not members of this forum and do not post. I think that some of the posters here have a deeper musical background than others and feel the need to look down on those of us who are not musicians and only fans. I have read threads from this forum for a long time, and although I only started posting recently, I have seen countless opinions that I disagree with strongly. I do not criticize any of the people here, however, because I recognize my musical background pales in comparison to many of the posters, and I may not be able to express myself well enough. More importantly, though, I do not want to come across as a dick.
When I challenged Bosk to enlighten me, I was not trying to antagonize him. If he could defend his position well enough, maybe he could change mine to the point that I no longer found Octavarium to be a disjointed mess, but just didn't like the song. Instead, he ignored my post and continues to insult me and call my opinion wrong, while trying to bait me on other threads. I've come to the conclusion that he is just a person that gets off belittling other people to boost his own self-esteem. If he did answer me, he would probably only copy and paste the Wikipedia page describing the song. Now I am antagonizing him.
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Before Bosk and Zook correct me, I did once have a snide remark about 12 Within Temptation North American concerts not being enough for them on the WT thread. I don't want to give them the opportunity to rub something else in my face.
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Hey, and I'm cool that you think that. We all have opinions but to say that opinions can't be wrong is silly. I've had opinions that in the end I was wrong. I was wrong! :lol
I've been one of those guys that believes that bands purposely have harsh transitions. There is no right or wrong and like you say it's a personal taste but I do agree that some do come off weird. I just think you're off on this one and are in the minority.
Hey but opinions right!? I'm just glad that we all have that interest in music and good debates come out of it.
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Kingshmegland - I know you were not being completely serious in your earlier posts (re: Octavarium being a "good" song and "95%" of fans holding that opinion), but I do want to have it noted that if you played the song Octavarium to 1000 people, I'd imagine more than half would find it 25 minutes of widdly and preposterous tedium. You may be right that 95% of DT fans love it but that proves nothing beyond the notion that Octavarium is an excellent example of the kind of music DT fans tend to like. DT fans are mercifully not the world.
I like the song quite a bit but I feel the same as those who find it to be an awkwardly strung-together piece, with long stretches of boredom, and the lyrics to Full Circle are distractingly bad (I mention that because almost all song lyrics are 5th-rate writing but generally they don't interfere with enjoyment of the song. Full Circle is an exception, the writing is just so childish). When the song is good, it is absolutely staggering, but to my ears there are not enough good moments to make it a top 20 DT song.
I agree completely with your very last post though, it all makes for a good exchange of opinions.
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Oh I'm not talking a person who doesn't know DT. I'm talking prog rock fans.
I think you and I know outside of this realm, most wouldn't sit through it. Maybe I confused other by not stating that.
I just assumed people on this Forum like prog. It would be weird if they were not.
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Octavarium the song? Yeah the hell. Octavarium the album? Eh...not so much.
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Magic album, even more magical title track.
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:biggrin:
I get a kick when people get upset about objective. Were talking "LOTR" here of music. Not "The Room" of music.
I get the middle of the ground where it's 50/50 and it becomes subjective but when so many love it. You might be in the wrong that it's not a good song or a movie.
You can't compare music and movies though.
The only thing comparable between music and movies is dialogue vs. lyrics, as those are the only two mutual things that can be, well, bad, but it's such a small part in music whereas in movies it might often be the reason it is loved so much.
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Holy shit, 10 years? I remember hearing this album on the CD that my dad's friend burned for him while driving to soccer practice.
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:biggrin:
I get a kick when people get upset about objective. Were talking "LOTR" here of music. Not "The Room" of music.
I get the middle of the ground where it's 50/50 and it becomes subjective but when so many love it. You might be in the wrong that it's not a good song or a movie.
You can't compare music and movies though.
The only thing comparable between music and movies is dialogue vs. lyrics, as those are the only two mutual things that can be, well, bad, but it's such a small part in music whereas in movies it might often be the reason it is loved so much.
Sure you can. People get obsessed with lyric. I see it all the time. Look at Dog Years by Rush. A lot if people hated it because of the lyrisc. I still like the tune a bunch.
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:biggrin:
I get a kick when people get upset about objective. Were talking "LOTR" here of music. Not "The Room" of music.
I get the middle of the ground where it's 50/50 and it becomes subjective but when so many love it. You might be in the wrong that it's not a good song or a movie.
You can't compare music and movies though.
The only thing comparable between music and movies is dialogue vs. lyrics, as those are the only two mutual things that can be, well, bad, but it's such a small part in music whereas in movies it might often be the reason it is loved so much.
Sure you can. People get obsessed with lyric. I see it all the time. Look at Dog Years by Rush. A lot if people hated it because of the lyrisc. I still like the tune a bunch.
The point is that it's the only thing you can compare them with. If it's an instrumental, suddenly music becomes a lot less objective, if at all
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Instead, he ignored my post and continues to insult me and call my opinion wrong, while trying to bait me on other threads. I've come to the conclusion that he is just a person that gets off belittling other people to boost his own self-esteem.
No one insulted you, baited you, or belittled you. But if you have problems with people simply because they don't agree with your posts, I suggest you find a more constructive way to deal with it besides you yourself baiting.
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Didn't like the album when it came out and still don't really care for it. The title track is a snooze-fest, taking forever to get past the 'ambient - aren't we just like Pink Floyd' part and really kick in. I lose interest or fall asleep before that happens. The rest of the album, for me, is just as 'skippable'. I prefer to just forget this was ever released.
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How you explained The Room is how that poster talked about Octavarium. We all know the room is just plain bad but you can enjoy it. Do you look at Octavarium as a poorly made song? I think not. there are many other DT songs I can say that about. That's my point. He is in the minority thinking it's a poorly crafted song. I think the majority think he is wrong. The majority loves the song. So I say he is wrong for saying that it's poorly structured. If he came out and just said I don't like the song, I'd get that but it is not a poorly crafted song.
This idea seems to come up a lot in these types of threads, but it is still wrong: that 1 or 10 or 100 people share the same opinion doesn't make it any less of an opinion. The other tricky (and also just as wrong) thing is when people use measurable, quantifiable things as surrogates for their opinion. There probably IS some quantifiable standard for measuring whether LOTR is "more well made" than "The Room", but that's not opinion anymore, unless we all agree that that standard is accepted as the standard for what is a "good" film versus a "bad" film. I'm pretty sure that isn't the case, though.
I'm sorry if some of this comes off as very pedantic, but it is important to me, because I see my (now) 14-year-old experimenting with music and movies, and figuring out what she likes and doesn't, and I don't want her to grow up thinking she has to like something because someone else does, and (conversely) disrespecting others because they don't like what she does. I see her lose herself in her One Direction or Ed Sheeran every bit as much as I lose myself in Dream Theater or Genesis. And isn't that what music (art) is supposed to be about? There are only two rules I have with her on music: we talk about (some) of the lyrics whether she wants to or not, and if she wants me to buy her a song or an album with a cover on it, she has to listen to the original. Other than that...
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I still don't see how you can compare movies with music.
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Till I saw this thread.....I hadn't listened to this album in a few years.
So I decided to give it a spin & I must admit this album is quite fantastic. I didn't
like this album much when it first came out, but have a much different opinion on it now.
Funny how that happens. Not sure why I like this album so much more now than back then,
but I've been spinning quite a bit now.
Cannot believe it's been 10 years already......time flies.
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How you explained The Room is how that poster talked about Octavarium. We all know the room is just plain bad but you can enjoy it. Do you look at Octavarium as a poorly made song? I think not. there are many other DT songs I can say that about. That's my point. He is in the minority thinking it's a poorly crafted song. I think the majority think he is wrong. The majority loves the song. So I say he is wrong for saying that it's poorly structured. If he came out and just said I don't like the song, I'd get that but it is not a poorly crafted song.
This idea seems to come up a lot in these types of threads, but it is still wrong: that 1 or 10 or 100 people share the same opinion doesn't make it any less of an opinion. The other tricky (and also just as wrong) thing is when people use measurable, quantifiable things as surrogates for their opinion. There probably IS some quantifiable standard for measuring whether LOTR is "more well made" than "The Room", but that's not opinion anymore, unless we all agree that that standard is accepted as the standard for what is a "good" film versus a "bad" film. I'm pretty sure that isn't the case, though.
I'm sorry if some of this comes off as very pedantic, but it is important to me, because I see my (now) 14-year-old experimenting with music and movies, and figuring out what she likes and doesn't, and I don't want her to grow up thinking she has to like something because someone else does, and (conversely) disrespecting others because they don't like what she does. I see her lose herself in her One Direction or Ed Sheeran every bit as much as I lose myself in Dream Theater or Genesis. And isn't that what music (art) is supposed to be about? There are only two rules I have with her on music: we talk about (some) of the lyrics whether she wants to or not, and if she wants me to buy her a song or an album with a cover on it, she has to listen to the original. Other than that...
Pedantic? Really? All it states the majority likes something it's usually very good. It's not conforming to anyone. When a movie get a great review it's a good bet it's a very good movie. When it gets panned it's a good bet it's bad. When it's mixed it's up to you to figure out if you like it or not. Of course you can make up your own mind but lets be honest. sometimes we're wrong in our beliefs. Why can no one admit that?
Can you name an album that is for the majority panned by fans that a few like? Sure. Doesn't mean they are right.
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When it's mixed it's up to you to figure out if you like it or not. Of course you can make up your own mind but lets be honest. sometimes we're wrong in our beliefs. Why can no one admit that?
Um... because you're not right? Honestly, the more you explain yourself, the less I'm convinced it IS me being pedantic. How can we be wrong in what we like? Unless of course the standard IS "what the MOST people like" (in which case, fellow DT fans, we've all just conceded that it is a stated fact that DT is less "good" than Justin Beiber, Britney Spears, and The Village People), the fact that someone - including a critic - shares an opinion with you means nowt.
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I'm saying opinions can be wrong. It's not about what you like or not. This stemmed from a poster saying that he though Octavarium was middle section and I quote him "I find it to be a disjointed mess".
I said he was in the wrong. I've hear a handful of people say that. That is such a minority. Now we all can surely say that about other DT songs but I believed him to be wrong. That's why I'm saying opinions can be wrong. Hell, I've had opinions that are wrong. I find it hard to believe people can't acknowledge that.
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I'm saying opinions can be wrong. It's not about what you like or not. This stemmed from a poster saying that he though Octavarium was middle section and I quote him "I find it to be a disjointed mess".
I said he was in the wrong. I've hear a handful of people say that. That is such a minority. Now we all can surely say that about other DT songs but I believed him to be wrong. That's why I'm saying opinions can be wrong. Hell, I've had opinions that are wrong. I find it hard to believe people can't acknowledge that.
You're wrong. Opinions cannot be wrong, regardless of how many people hold that opinion. All you can gauge by that is popularity, and popular doesn't mean correct. It gets even more silly when we're discussing something already so incredibly niche like DT, because what is a minority and a majority?
If we were to show Octavarium to 1000 random people, the majority would think it's a disjointed drawn out mess. But what do they know about DT? But does it only count if they're already "DT fans"? Or self confessed "prog fans"? On RYM BCASL and ADTOE are pretty much exactly equal, and it's a much larger sample size than we could muster on DTF. Are they wrong? (I'd agree with them over DTF, but that's not the point). Do only the "real" fans of DTF count? It's creating arbitrary groups.
The problem is that you're defining your own subjective definition to quantify something, and trying to assign an objective measure to it, but it's an invented measure with no direct relevance. You're still just getting opinions.
Now, if we want to just discuss the opinion, I agree the song is amazing, and I believe every single section has musical and lyrical relevance beyond what a lot of people have grasped, but that's just an opinion here. I can't argue that it's more correct than anyone else's.
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This is the first DT album that came out after I became a fan of the band. My first experience with that new DT CD thrill.
I remember when the "I can feel my body breaking" reprise first happened in TROAE. The chills were ridiculous.
Some of the songs on the album get a bad rap. But at its worst, the album is still very well composed and generally enjoyable to listen to. People rightfully credit DT12 for its tighter song structures, but forget that DT did the same thing here.
Octavarium might be DT's best song. Even with its long run time, it's amazing how many great things are jammed in there.
It's an album that, in spite of its flaws, is hard not to think of in a fond way.
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Yes opinions can. Sure it's what you believe but people can be wrong. Sorry. Not changing my mind, right or wrong. :lol
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King has proven that opinions can be wrong because in his opinion.....opinions can be wrong. :neverusethis:
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King has proven that opinions can be wrong because in his opinion.....opinions can be wrong. :neverusethis:
:lol
I just find it funny that people can't admit that an opinion can be wrong. If that were the case, we'd live in a perfect world wouldn't we.
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King has proven that opinions can be wrong because in his opinion.....opinions can be wrong. :neverusethis:
:lol
I just find it funny that people can't admit that an opinion can be wrong. If that were the case, we'd live in a perfect world wouldn't we.
What? If opinions could be right or wrong, you could argue them logically and make people change their minds to be right and then we'd live in a perfect world. But opinions are subjective, which is why it's still legal to watch the Fast and the Furious movies. For now....
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Well, I'll leave it as we agree to disagree.
Except for you Blob. That Fast And The Furious quip put me over the edge. :neverusethis:
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I'm saying opinions can be wrong. It's not about what you like or not. This stemmed from a poster saying that he though Octavarium was middle section and I quote him "I find it to be a disjointed mess".
I said he was in the wrong. I've hear a handful of people say that. That is such a minority. Now we all can surely say that about other DT songs but I believed him to be wrong. That's why I'm saying opinions can be wrong. Hell, I've had opinions that are wrong. I find it hard to believe people can't acknowledge that.
Listen, I'm not going to keep repeating, but this is a kind of new point: BY DEFINITION you're not correct. If there is a circumstance where there is a "right" and a "wrong", it's not that someone's OPINION is right/wrong, but rather that you are actually talking about a fact. There probably IS a quantitative measure by which we can judge "disjointed mess", and at that point you're not talking about opinion anymore.
The problem, as I see it, is less about your feelings about "opinions" than it is that most people don't understand the difference between "fact" and "opinion". That one person thinks it doesn't make it "fact" (I'm talking to you, Rachel Dolezal).
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The problem, as I see it, is less about your feelings about "opinions" than it is that most people don't understand the difference between "fact" and "opinion". That one person thinks it doesn't make it "fact" (I'm talking to you, Rachel Dolezal).
That is precisely why opinions can be wrong. Facts are objective. Opinions are not. However, opinions can and should be based on facts. Where, for example, an opinion is based on facts that are incorrect, the opinion itself is wrong. As someone who is trained in the practice of law, I am somewhat surprised that you do not get this, since that is basic strategy for how to attack an expert witness opinion, for example.
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The problem, as I see it, is less about your feelings about "opinions" than it is that most people don't understand the difference between "fact" and "opinion". That one person thinks it doesn't make it "fact" (I'm talking to you, Rachel Dolezal).
That is precisely why opinions can be wrong. Facts are objective. Opinions are not. However, opinions can and should be based on facts. Where, for example, an opinion is based on facts that are incorrect, the opinion itself is wrong. As someone who is trained in the practice of law, I am somewhat surprised that you do not get this, since that is basic strategy for how to attack an expert witness opinion, for example.
Yes, opinions can be wrong if they are based on provable facts (like if your opinion is that man didn't land on the moon), but not all opinions have to be based on facts, especially as we're talking about music here. There is no objectively good or bad music. That's why we're taught music theory to write songs, and not music facts. Pretty sure you've never had to argue about music quality in a court of law.
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I've brought this up at work and everybody is split just like on this forum.
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Being told your opinion is wrong because that person doesn't share your tastes is extremely annoying.
But I agree that you can't have an opinion on a fact.
For example you can't say : " Paul McCartney played Tuba in the Beatles ". That's not an opinion.
I remember having an argument on Twitter before with someone who was saying that Mike Portnoy had more technical ability than Mike Mangini. I was trying to
say that Mangini can do things that Portnoy can't and they kept saying " in your opinion ". Well no.
The analogy I came up with was saying This 6 string bass has more strings than this 4 string bass "
and them going " well that's just your opinion ".
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Everybody is entitled to argue that he/she likes Portnoy's or Mangini's STYLE better than the other, and even if one or the other fits the band better. But that Mangini is TECHNICALLY superior is unquestionable. If that is important, that's another story.
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The problem, as I see it, is less about your feelings about "opinions" than it is that most people don't understand the difference between "fact" and "opinion". That one person thinks it doesn't make it "fact" (I'm talking to you, Rachel Dolezal).
That is precisely why opinions can be wrong. Facts are objective. Opinions are not. However, opinions can and should be based on facts. Where, for example, an opinion is based on facts that are incorrect, the opinion itself is wrong. As someone who is trained in the practice of law, I am somewhat surprised that you do not get this, since that is basic strategy for how to attack an expert witness opinion, for example.
Yes, opinions can be wrong if they are based on provable facts (like if your opinion is that man didn't land on the moon), but not all opinions have to be based on facts, especially as we're talking about music here. There is no objectively good or bad music. That's why we're taught music theory to write songs, and not music facts. Pretty sure you've never had to argue about music quality in a court of law.
this
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Wasn't Octavarium a pretty cool album?
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The problem, as I see it, is less about your feelings about "opinions" than it is that most people don't understand the difference between "fact" and "opinion". That one person thinks it doesn't make it "fact" (I'm talking to you, Rachel Dolezal).
That is precisely why opinions can be wrong. Facts are objective. Opinions are not. However, opinions can and should be based on facts. Where, for example, an opinion is based on facts that are incorrect, the opinion itself is wrong. As someone who is trained in the practice of law, I am somewhat surprised that you do not get this, since that is basic strategy for how to attack an expert witness opinion, for example.
Okay, I see what you're saying, and - and this isn't a cop out for me to "still be right", I'm just explaining so we can focus on other things - in that case, I'm considering the FACTS to be wrong. You're right, as a result ("fruit of the poisoned tree"?) the opinion is technically "wrong", and you are also right, I wouldn't hesitate to argue that in a legal situation.
I was focusing too narrowly, and assuming that the facts weren't in dispute. I'm talking more along the lines of, you and I both agree that Song A is 12:00 minutes long, and your opinion is "that song is too long" (perhaps your favorite band is The Ramones), and my opinion is "that song isn't long enough" (perhaps my favorite band is Transatlantic).
Fair point.
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The problem, as I see it, is less about your feelings about "opinions" than it is that most people don't understand the difference between "fact" and "opinion". That one person thinks it doesn't make it "fact" (I'm talking to you, Rachel Dolezal).
That is precisely why opinions can be wrong. Facts are objective. Opinions are not. However, opinions can and should be based on facts. Where, for example, an opinion is based on facts that are incorrect, the opinion itself is wrong. As someone who is trained in the practice of law, I am somewhat surprised that you do not get this, since that is basic strategy for how to attack an expert witness opinion, for example.
Yes, opinions can be wrong if they are based on provable facts (like if your opinion is that man didn't land on the moon), but not all opinions have to be based on facts, especially as we're talking about music here. There is no objectively good or bad music. That's why we're taught music theory to write songs, and not music facts. Pretty sure you've never had to argue about music quality in a court of law.
Again, repeating myself here, but we're in a very gray area. Notwithstanding what I said to Bosk, whose point I concede and with whom I agree, I'm splitting hairs here and saying that the conversation is more complex. It's NOT the opinion that is technically wrong, it is the facts underlying the opinion. Whether we as individuals can prove it or not, someone somewhere CAN without doubt PROVE whether man set foot on the moon, or (as the Mythbusters pretty successfully debunked) the evidence, including photographs and audio tapes, were "manufactured in a studio/laboratory. Perhaps it might even be a combination of both.
In real life, someone drawing a conclusion from wrong or incomplete facts (but which facts ARE available in some form or fashion) is typically called an "opinion", and as a practicing human, I understand that. Here, I'm using a more formal definition along the lines of "a belief or judgment that rests on grounds insufficient to produce complete certainty."
I appreciate you all entertaining this discussion; I fully understand that it is inconsequential, and I imagine some find it boring, but for whatever reason, I find other's views on these things interesting, and often enlightening.
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Wasn't Octavarium a pretty cool album?
no...
...it's the best.
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Everybody is entitled to argue that he/she likes Portnoy's or Mangini's STYLE better than the other, and even if one or the other fits the band better. But that Mangini is TECHNICALLY superior is unquestionable. If that is important, that's another story.
But only if we agree on what the factual basis is for "technically superior". Is it Loudest? Fastest? Most drums in the kit? I would venture to say there is at least ONE thing that Mike Portnoy can do with a drum kit that Mike Mangini can't.
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For example you can't say : " Paul McCartney played Tuba in the Beatles ". That's not an opinion.
The closest he came was the flugelhorn (on "Martha My Dear"). His grandfather played tuba, though not in the Beatles, and there IS tuba on Beatles recordings (also "Martha My Dear").
Just throwing that in there.
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Everybody is entitled to argue that he/she likes Portnoy's or Mangini's STYLE better than the other, and even if one or the other fits the band better. But that Mangini is TECHNICALLY superior is unquestionable. If that is important, that's another story.
But only if we agree on what the factual basis is for "technically superior". Is it Loudest? Fastest? Most drums in the kit? I would venture to say there is at least ONE thing that Mike Portnoy can do with a drum kit that Mike Mangini can't.
Sure. That is why it' almost impossible to judge two players from different styles. Who is technically superior? Billy Sheehan or Victor Wooten?
But, if you are to compare two players from the same genre, playing in the same band, and even the same songs, It gets a little easier to compare the TECHNIQUE. Of course each of them has his strenghts and weaknesses, but overall, Mangini is better.
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Everybody is entitled to argue that he/she likes Portnoy's or Mangini's STYLE better than the other, and even if one or the other fits the band better. But that Mangini is TECHNICALLY superior is unquestionable. If that is important, that's another story.
But only if we agree on what the factual basis is for "technically superior". Is it Loudest? Fastest? Most drums in the kit? I would venture to say there is at least ONE thing that Mike Portnoy can do with a drum kit that Mike Mangini can't.
Sure. That is why it' almost impossible to judge two players from different styles. Who is technically superior? Billy Sheehan or Victor Wooten?
But, if you are to compare two players from the same genre, playing in the same band, and even the same songs, It gets a little easier to compare the TECHNIQUE. Of course each of them has his strenghts and weaknesses, but overall, Mangini is better.
But surely you see that your post is pretty much: "fact, fact, fact, fact, my opinion and not based on any readily quantifiable fact." Even your "same song, same genre" notion is not compelling (especially the song part). I don't concede as "fact" at all that Mike Mangini is "better" overall, not without some understanding of what "better" means. I've heard drummers who have played some phenomenal things absolutely butcher AC/DC songs, because for that band the technical requirements are very narrow. You don't have to play with much variety, but what you do play has to be SPOT ON for it not to be noticeable.
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The skill needed to play AC DC is one aspect of technical playing. I am perfectly aware that LOTS of very technical bands are not capable of laying down a simple groove and make it sound as good as AC DC. But I still say that judging them by what they do, Mangini does it better. If you need a description of what is better to me, I define it loosely as "precision, accuracy, cleanliness and better timing". And I see you have a problem with "fact". Alright, I grant you that it is merely my opinion then, but it is an opinion of a musician that has been playing for mor than 30 years.
One last comparison between the two, I have always been impressed by Portnoy's kick drum precision, but that sometimes works against him. He seems very proud of that too, and it causes him to mix it VERY loud. DARK ETERNAL NIGHT is a very good example of what I'm talking about.
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The first album I had heard by the band, I wasn't blown away by my first listen, but very much intrigued. Prog was not and still is not a genre of music I listen to too much, but I think it was JP's shredding and the similarities to my favorite band Iron Maiden that had me keep going on them. I really like the album, but it ranks in the lower half overall for me after I discovered the rest of the discography. I would however really like to see the title track played live in person.
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The skill needed to play AC DC is one aspect of technical playing. I am perfectly aware that LOTS of very technical bands are not capable of laying down a simple groove and make it sound as good as AC DC. But I still say that judging them by what they do, Mangini does it better. If you need a description of what is better to me, I define it loosely as "precision, accuracy, cleanliness and better timing". And I see you have a problem with "fact". Alright, I grant you that it is merely my opinion then, but it is an opinion of a musician that has been playing for mor than 30 years.
Which, IN THE CONTEXT OF THIS DISCUSSION, means nothing. I don't mean that to be dismissive of you, you seem to know what you're talking about, but in the discussion of "opinion versus fact", an educated and informed opinion is still.... opinion.
(And none of this is to say that Mangini is bad, or that you don't know what you're talking about, or that I agree/disagree with you; just talking about "opinions" still.)
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The skill needed to play AC DC is one aspect of technical playing. I am perfectly aware that LOTS of very technical bands are not capable of laying down a simple groove and make it sound as good as AC DC. But I still say that judging them by what they do, Mangini does it better. If you need a description of what is better to me, I define it loosely as "precision, accuracy, cleanliness and better timing". And I see you have a problem with "fact". Alright, I grant you that it is merely my opinion then, but it is an opinion of a musician that has been playing for mor than 30 years.
One last comparison between the two, I have always been impressed by Portnoy's kick drum precision, but that sometimes works against him. He seems very proud of that too, and it causes him to mix it VERY loud. DARK ETERNAL NIGHT is a very good example of what I'm talking about.
"I define it loosely as 'precision, accuracy, cleanliness and better timing'"....
:|
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I did not understand why you marked "loosely". Perhaps I used it wrong?
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I think he was just pointing out the pun. Loose is the exact opposite of everything you said next :p
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Hum....I used "loosely" meaning "more or less, among other things"......LOL. as I said in another thread, don't take me wrong if I happen to seem rude or if I say something that doesn't seem to make much sense, it's more likely that I failed to express myself correctly!
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Yes it was just a pun ;)
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Stevie Ray Vaughn's talent is rarely disputed. Yet his style was epitomized by playing it loose....not precision...not perfectly accurate...not even always perfectly timed.
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as I said, the skills needed to play AC DC are different, and same thing applies to the blues. SRV is indeed oneof the best, exactly because he is a master of those specific skills. we were comparing two drummers from the same genre of music.....that's an important distinction.
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Stevie Ray Vaughn's talent is rarely disputed. Yet his style was epitomized by playing it loose....not precision...not perfectly accurate...not even always perfectly timed.
This is the wrong thread I know but :lol.... my god I hate SRV...Although I'm not saying he couldn't play.
as you were... *running away icon*
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I used to play in a SRV cover band. I really like him. One of the greatest losses of music, because he died when he was still very young and just had recovered from his drug problem.
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*looks through the pages of this thread*
:omg: What on earth have I unleashed on the forum...? It's been taken off on tangents that have increasingly little to do with the topic.
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OCTAVARIUM GOOD IT HAS SONGS AND STUFF
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I saw SRV back in '88, on the back of a flatbed truck trailer in the corner of the endzone of a shitty Division I-AA football field, with about 500 in attendance on rainy and relatively cold New England spring day, and to this day, I have never seen a guitar player "own" his instrument like that. It was like it was a third arm or something, I can't describe it, but I've seen most of the (rock) greats (Page, Clapton, Howe, Van Halen, Fripp, Gilmour, etc.) and I've never seen anything like it.
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I saw SRV back in '88, on the back of a flatbed truck trailer in the corner of the endzone of a shitty Division I-AA football field, with about 500 in attendance on rainy and relatively cold New England spring day, and to this day, I have never seen a guitar player "own" his instrument like that. It was like it was a third arm or something, I can't describe it, but I've seen most of the (rock) greats (Page, Clapton, Howe, Van Halen, Fripp, Gilmour, etc.) and I've never seen anything like it.
I've seen lots of film of him playing, and I get exactly what you are saying.
One of the few musical regrets of my life is that I never got to see him play live. He was able to pour more of himself, his essence, into his playing than virtually any other guitarist I've ever seen.
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Kingshmegland - I know you were not being completely serious in your earlier posts (re: Octavarium being a "good" song and "95%" of fans holding that opinion), but I do want to have it noted that if you played the song Octavarium to 1000 people, I'd imagine more than half would find it 25 minutes of widdly and preposterous tedium. You may be right that 95% of DT fans love it but that proves nothing beyond the notion that Octavarium is an excellent example of the kind of music DT fans tend to like. DT fans are mercifully not the world.
I like the song quite a bit but I feel the same as those who find it to be an awkwardly strung-together piece, with long stretches of boredom, and the lyrics to Full Circle are distractingly bad (I mention that because almost all song lyrics are 5th-rate writing but generally they don't interfere with enjoyment of the song. Full Circle is an exception, the writing is just so childish). When the song is good, it is absolutely staggering, but to my ears there are not enough good moments to make it a top 20 DT song.
I agree completely with your very last post though, it all makes for a good exchange of opinions.
You miss a very important pre-existing bias with this assumption. What if it was 1000 people who hadn't been continually brain-washed by terrible 3-minute pop songs all their lives? What if they were musically a blank slate? What if they were from a previous century and were used to 20-minute bombastic classical compositions?
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Until you can find 1000 musical blank slates, I don't think we could even begin to predict the outcome of that. Music is a very cultural thing, in terms of rhythms and notes/scales, so I'm not sure their opinions would be any more meaningful than any of ours. Maybe they'd just prefer whichever one sounded calmer and less jarring compared to the sounds they know, maybe it would be a 50/50 split, who knows.
But I think the basic point would remain that it's still just opinions.
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Images & Words and Octavarium were the first 2 DT albums I bought and still my two favorites
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Everybody is entitled to argue that he/she likes Portnoy's or Mangini's STYLE better than the other, and even if one or the other fits the band better. But that Mangini is TECHNICALLY superior is unquestionable. If that is important, that's another story.
But only if we agree on what the factual basis is for "technically superior". Is it Loudest? Fastest? Most drums in the kit? I would venture to say there is at least ONE thing that Mike Portnoy can do with a drum kit that Mike Mangini can't.
What is that one thing? Based on the number of MP DT songs that we have heard MM play live, I don't see how you can say that. The Great Debate? Did not even break a sweat. 6:00? MM played it better live than MP, with mostly only one hand playing the hi-hat. Fatal Tragedy? No problem. Metropolis Part 1, he played the drum solo part mostly with one hand. Heck, he even played the cowbell live in Strange Deja Vu. :lol The only crazy MP thing that MM did not play in an MP DT song already played is the Finally Free outro, and I suspect that MM really just found that part as overdrumming.
MP's possible edge against MM is his drumming composition skills, and I would argue that preferring one over the other would be a matter of taste, not technical ability. They are quite different in composition philosophies, where MP puts the complexity in the fills, while MM puts the complexity within the song structure. MP tends to compose with a conscious effort to stand out, while MM tends to emphasize cohesiveness. They are very different, and most of the time, the effect is that MP makes simple parts sound complex (which "air-drumming" fans love) while MM makes complex parts sound simple because it blends in with the song (which song-first drummers love).
But surely you see that your post is pretty much: "fact, fact, fact, fact, my opinion and not based on any readily quantifiable fact." Even your "same song, same genre" notion is not compelling (especially the song part). I don't concede as "fact" at all that Mike Mangini is "better" overall, not without some understanding of what "better" means. I've heard drummers who have played some phenomenal things absolutely butcher AC/DC songs, because for that band the technical requirements are very narrow. You don't have to play with much variety, but what you do play has to be SPOT ON for it not to be noticeable.
Mangini has played with that kind of style of minimalist precision drumming. Giant Balls of Gold (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g9X7OXNa1EU) and ]The Black Forest (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YHnzTDElD20) in Steve Vai's Alive in an Ultra World album are some examples.
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What is that one thing? Based on the number of MP DT songs that we have heard MM play live, I don't see how you can say that. The Great Debate? Did not even break a sweat. 6:00? MM played it better live than MP, with mostly only one hand playing the hi-hat. Fatal Tragedy? No problem. Metropolis Part 1, he played the drum solo part mostly with one hand. Heck, he even played the cowbell live in Strange Deja Vu. :lol The only crazy MP thing that MM did not play in an MP DT song already played is the Finally Free outro, and I suspect that MM really just found that part as overdrumming.
MM plays that outro differently because he's bound to a click track and they had to arrange it differently, it has nothing to do with "overdrumming" at all.
And all of these points are basically just speed, not factoring in musicality, feel, style, etc, ie every other factor of music. Playing more at a time doesn't mean you're necessarily playing better.
Personally I don't think most of the one handed showoff stuff sounds as good anyway, because they don't have the dynamics and accents, it's all straight.
Better is all a matter of opinion.
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But opinions can be wrong you know Blob :neverusethis:
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Opinions can only be wrong if your opinion is that opinions can be wrong. :neverusethis:
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King has proven that opinions can be wrong because in his opinion.....opinions can be wrong. :neverusethis:
You might be right :lol
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But seriously, it seems as if some people have this need to somehow prove that MM is objectively better, but if you prefer MP, it's just your personal taste.
Both drummers have their strengths and weaknesses, some people will prefer different aspects over others. Deal with it.
How the hell did a thread about Octavarium get to the topic of MM anyway?!! So pointless and irrelevant.
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MM plays that outro differently because he's bound to a click track and they had to arrange it differently, it has nothing to do with "overdrumming" at all.
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Very authoritative statement, you talked to them?
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MM plays that outro differently because he's bound to a click track and they had to arrange it differently, it has nothing to do with "overdrumming" at all.
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Very authoritative statement, you talked to them?
It is known they play to a click track, and MP said on the Metropolis 2000 commentary that the rest of the band held that section together while MP did those fills, which doesn't work with their current setup. The section had to be changed to accommodate that.
Makes more sense than guessing based on personal opinions.
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It doesn't make sense because having a click track actually allows you to do fills because there is a metronome playing. MM's fill outside 4/4 in the Finally Free outro in BTFW also disputes the claim that he needs to drum the basic pattern to keep the music tight.
My understanding also is that MM is not the only guy who hears the click track. How does JP enter in perfect sync with the click track after the Paradox of the Black Light? Or JM from the Embracing Circle?
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It doesn't make sense because having a click track actually allows you to do fills because there is a metronome playing. MM's fill outside 4/4 in the Finally Free outro in BTFW also disputes the claim that he needs to drum the basic pattern to keep the music tight.
My understanding also is that MM is not the only guy who hears the click track. How does JP enter in perfect sync with the click track after the Paradox of the Black Light? Or JM from the Embracing Circle?
If they're doing it like they did with MP, secret cowbell (ie a triggered drum that only the band hears).
My understanding is that the band doesn't hear any click, only MM. It would be a muddle to have everyone hearing both the drums and the click. You want to lock in to the drummer's rhythm.
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To get the thread back on track, I always liked MP's more measured and disciplined drumming in Octavarium. For my taste, he started to go overboard from the SDOIT album onwards (he almost ruined Blimd Faith and Misunderstood) and it's good he reined it in in this epic.
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Blind Faith is among the best drumming in a DT song, and Misunderstood is one of my favourites too, with the great cymbal and tom work. Ruin? Not even close. SDOIT is one of MP's best albums.
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I'm just more of a fan of the MP whose primary weapon is his expansive vocabulary of drum patterns (Awake is my fave drum album ever) than the MP who became obsessed with drum fills in almost every line.
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Blind Faith is among the best drumming in a DT song, and Misunderstood is one of my favourites too, with the great cymbal and tom work. Ruin? Not even close. SDOIT is one of MP's best albums.
Yup, #1 MP album performance for me. The beginning of Misunderstood is especially tasty, can't fathom any criticism of it.
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Blind Faith is among the best drumming in a DT song, and Misunderstood is one of my favourites too, with the great cymbal and tom work. Ruin? Not even close. SDOIT is one of MP's best albums.
Yup, #1 MP album performance for me. The beginning of Misunderstood is especially tasty, can't fathom any criticism of it.
It's excessive and does not contribute to the mood that the song is trying to establish. While the guitar, the keys, the bass and the vocals are establishing the mood of the song, the drums are just calling attention.
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King has proven that opinions can be wrong because in his opinion.....opinions can be wrong. :neverusethis:
You might be right :lol
You may be crazy...........
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Blind Faith is among the best drumming in a DT song, and Misunderstood is one of my favourites too, with the great cymbal and tom work. Ruin? Not even close. SDOIT is one of MP's best albums.
Yup, #1 MP album performance for me. The beginning of Misunderstood is especially tasty, can't fathom any criticism of it.
Neither can I. The first 3 and a half minutes of Misunderstood is one of my favourite DT headphone moments, between the low bass guitar, the clean guitar, the ambient keys, and the sparse drumming.
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wait...
Misunderstood is on Octavarium?
I AM SO CONFUSED
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wait...
Misunderstood is on Octavarium?
I AM SO CONFUSED
It's a bonus track on the Greenland Edition.
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But it doesn't fit with the concept.
THIS IS NOT RIGHT!
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But it doesn't fit with the concept.
THIS IS NOT RIGHT!
But it actually does fit the concept.
Misunderstood: Wanting to break from this circle of confusion
Octavarium: We move in circles, balanced all the while...
Misunderstood: Sleeping in the depths of isolation
Octavarium: But thinks he has cured me from a state of catatonic sleep
See! The proof is right there. Octavarium is actually about the person in Misunderstood!
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Wow. Nuggets abound.
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:tdwn
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*mind blown*
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Octavarium marks the end of my high level of interest in DT. I started my fandom with the release of SFAM and kept current with each album until Octavarium. I am fortunate enough to live in the NYC area, and saw them each time they visited between 2000 and 2006, which included the Live Scenes from NY show, and the Score show at Radio City. I anticipated the release of their followup to Octavarium, but was rather disappointed and only listened to Systematic Chaos a few times before shelving it. Thus, Octavarium remains, in my opinion, their last good album. After that, I haven't bought any of their subsequent releases, though I continued to listen to everything from I&W to 8VM. I've listened here and there to some songs from the post-Systematic Chaos albums, just to get an idea of what they were doing, but nothing interested me. Seemed rather lifeless.
A few weeks ago, something made me buy the LSFNY DVD (I only had it on VHS before) and I loved it as much as I remember when watching it 14 years ago. It was great to see the bonus footage too, including ACOS. I still like DT as much as ever, but everything after 2006 is unrecognizable to me. I attribute some of this to getting older, where I have come to appreciate good songs that are written simply and am less impressed with technical ability. That being said, I feel DT did a great job combining songwriting ability, emotional and thoughtful lyrics and melodies with their technical proficiency, but they have lost that somewhere after Octavarium.
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Octavarium That being said, I feel DT did a great job combining songwriting ability, emotional and thoughtful lyrics and melodies with their technical proficiency, but they have lost that somewhere after Octavarium.
You might want to check out their last two albums (especially DT12) as they are more melodical and the lyrics are also very good as well.
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Octavarium That being said, I feel DT did a great job combining songwriting ability, emotional and thoughtful lyrics and melodies with their technical proficiency, but they have lost that somewhere after Octavarium.
You might want to check out their last two albums (especially DT12) as they are more melodical and the lyrics are also very good as well.
Agreed, after reading that I was about to suggest DT12.
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Thanks, I'll check out DT12. I'm not one of those fans who is expecting the next Awake or Images and Words. I like when bands progress and try new things. I just don't necessarily like where they have progressed.
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Octavarium marks the end of my high level of interest in DT. I started my fandom with the release of SFAM and kept current with each album until Octavarium. I am fortunate enough to live in the NYC area, and saw them each time they visited between 2000 and 2006, which included the Live Scenes from NY show, and the Score show at Radio City. I anticipated the release of their followup to Octavarium, but was rather disappointed and only listened to Systematic Chaos a few times before shelving it. Thus, Octavarium remains, in my opinion, their last good album. After that, I haven't bought any of their subsequent releases, though I continued to listen to everything from I&W to 8VM. I've listened here and there to some songs from the post-Systematic Chaos albums, just to get an idea of what they were doing, but nothing interested me. Seemed rather lifeless.
I'd still say that Octavarium is their last truly great album.
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I'd still say that Octavarium is their last truly great album.
Absolutely. The last album were they were firing on all cylinders as it were.
In my mind - with the possible exception of A Dramatic Turn.... every album has been an attempt to re-create Octavarium.
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Do you mean because there's a 15+ minute epic at the end of each of those albums? Because that might just be the structure they want their albums to be.
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I think DT12 was definitely another attempt at a similarly structured album, but not the rest. BCASL was intended as a whole album of epics, which is kind of the opposite of Octavarium, and ADTOE was one of their most varied, so I wouldn't fit it into any particular mold.
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I had a heck of a time finding the album locally. In fact it may have been when I started to realize that retailers weren't holding thousands of CDs on their shelves anymore. I worked at Best Buy in the mid 90s and remember the CD section was ENORMOUS.
Anyway. I've always loved most of the album. I still skip Panic Attack just doesn't jive with there rest of the album for me.
I just can't stand the way James sings in this song.
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I think DT12 was definitely another attempt at a similarly structured album, but not the rest. BCASL was intended as a whole album of epics, which is kind of the opposite of Octavarium, and ADTOE was one of their most varied, so I wouldn't fit it into any particular mold.
Systematic Chaos is almost exactly structured like Octavarium. Stick ITPOE at the end as one song and it's nearly the same.
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I can see the surface similarities of "bunch of shorter songs, longer song near the end, 20+ minute epic", but I wouldn't consider it an "attempt to re-create Octavarium" as you said earlier. SC did perhaps cement the idea of more regular 20+ minute epics, but I think the mindset was totally different overall.
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Octavarium ain't bad. Half of it is awesome, half of it is just okay.
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The song Octavarium is the worst song ever written.
First half is boring enough to bring an hyperactive man to a coma.
It features JR's worst solo easily by far, idk why the fuck hell he didn't use something like Bebot.
JP's ending solo is also total garbage. The Majesty Demos short "X thinks he's X Song" are so much much better.
This song sucks, their weakest piece of music easily. Idk what were they thinking when they wrote it, "Oooh it's a masterpiece" hell no. Hell meaningless lyrics that make Metropolis Pt1 look like a children toy instruction booklet
24 minutes of mindless string/key pressing and ridiculous percussions (You can see MP's desperation and disgust while playing it, he actually hits his own head, hoping to knock himself out and spare himself of this).
Aah who am I kidding this song is fucking very awesome.
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Well don't hold back....
And this from the guy who wanted to clean up the language on the board? :corn
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Well don't hold back....
And this from the guy who wanted to clean up the language on the board? :corn
I am completely justified because I'm the leader of the crusade.
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Whatever the fuck you say