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General => General Discussion => Topic started by: Skeever on April 07, 2015, 06:27:55 PM

Title: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: Skeever on April 07, 2015, 06:27:55 PM
At the risk of sounding like a dumbass for bringing this up with a bunch of relative strangers, I've been thinking about this issue a lot lately and I'm looking for some third opinions.

I'm a guy in my late 20s, and I'm currently a renter. Ever since getting married a year ago, the idea of owning a home has continued to present itself. I've spent a lot of time looking a houses over the last year, and ultimately I've been disappointed by what I've seen, as well as a little bit intimidated by the idea of taking on a mortgage and 30 year loan. It's become obvious that I don't want to live in the houses and/or areas I can afford comfortably, so the next logical step is to look in areas where I'd be paying more.

My parents think I should buy a house, but they are also the type of people who worked 60 hour weeks their entire lives to pay a mortgage. Personally, I'm much happier knowing that I can pay for housing, pay bills, invest, and then still have a good amount of money to enjoy travel, concerts, hobbies, etc., maybe even go back to school. This idea seems completely foreign to the older generation, or at least blue collar folks like my parents. They seem to not understand why anyone wouldn't want to buy a house as soon as possible.

Does anyone care to share any insight on the topic? I'd like to start a family soon, but despite familial pressure I'm just not sure I see the value in purchasing a home. Seems like a ton of stress over nothing. If I have kids, wouldn't it be better and cheaper to just rent a larger apartment in area I wouldn't be able to afford to buy in? And, re: the home is an investment, even from that angle a house seems hard to justify, since my wife and I are priced out of the better areas anyway, why not just rent in them and put what I'm not paying taxes into an IRA or something?
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: eric42434224 on April 07, 2015, 06:39:35 PM
Each areas housing market is different.  Some it is better to rent, some better to buy.  Some people have certain lifestyles that work better in one over the other.  But if you plan to stay in one area, owning is usually the smarter financial decision in the long run.

Some things to consider:
-Your fixed rate 30 year mortgage will have your payment stay the same over the next 30 years.  Your rent will increase constantly.
-We are in a historically low interest rate environment, meaning it is cheap to borrow money.
-You own the equity in your home.  You are leveraging the banks money to gain equity in the property.  The landlord owns the equity in the rental, and you are paying for it.
-You have the ability for capital improvements
-You can use the equity to use to move to a bigger and better home in the future.
-You can still contribute $ to retirement and travel as most mortgages are cheaper than rent.

Dont buy into the hype about people slaving countless hours to pay a mortgage.  You still have to work those hours to pay rent too.

My advice is to price out what you can get for a specific amount for a rental, and what you can get for that same amount with Mortgage/taxes/insurance.

I was renting a house for $2400 a month.  4 bedroom, 2.5 bath, pool.  I bought the SAME EXACT MODEL house, but on a LAKE in the same neighborhood....my morgtage/taxes/insurance/HOA is $1800.  Not only is it cheaper, but I own the equity.  To be fair, I did put 20% down, but it still would be cheaper (Maybe $2050 vs $2400) apples to apples.

Each area in the country is different, but do not discount the values of home ownership.

Its like leasing or buying a car.  You can get a nicer car if you lease as the payments are lower.   But you will always have a lease payment.
If you buy, you car is not as nice, but after 5 years your car payment goes away.  It is cheaper in the long run to buy a house or car, than to rent/lease, no question (at least in most areas).
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: Skeever on April 07, 2015, 06:51:45 PM
Each areas housing market is different.  Some it is better to rent, some better to buy.  Some people have certain lifestyles that work better in one over the other.  But if you plan to stay in one area, owning is usually the smarter financial decision in the long run.

Some things to consider:
-Your fixed rate 30 year mortgage will have your payment stay the same over the next 30 years.  Your rent will increase constantly.
-We are in a historically low interest rate environment, meaning it is cheap to borrow money.
-You own the equity in your home.  You are leveraging the banks money to gain equity in the property.  The landlord owns the equity in the rental, and you are paying for it.
-You have the ability for capital improvements
-You can use the equity to use to move to a bigger and better home in the future.
-You can still contribute $ to retirement and travel as most mortgages are cheaper than rent.

Dont buy into the hype about people slaving countless hours to pay a mortgage.  You still have to work those hours to pay rent too.

My advice is to price out what you can get for a specific amount for a rental, and what you can get for that same amount with Mortgage/taxes/insurance.

I was renting a house for $2400 a month.  4 bedroom, 2.5 bath, pool.  I bought the SAME EXACT MODEL house, but on a LAKE in the same neighborhood....my morgtage/taxes/insurance/HOA is $1800.  Not only is it cheaper, but I own the equity.

Each area in the country is different, but do not discount the values of homeownership.

Thanks for the comments. What you're noting has not been my experience at all, though. Right now I pay $900 in rent, and even houses priced as modestly as 130k seem to have me paying at least $1300 per month in mortgage/taxes/insurance/HOA. Not to mention that houses that affordable have not been easy to come by in my area, and get quickly snatched up, and often need a lot of work (something I know nothing about).
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: eric42434224 on April 07, 2015, 06:55:13 PM
First, where do you live?

Second, your numbers seem a bit off to me.
I ran a mortgage calculator on 130k with taxes and insurance, and 1300 is WAAAAAAY too high
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: eric42434224 on April 07, 2015, 06:58:17 PM
$130k home price
5% down ($6500)
Interest rate 4.5%
30 year fixed loan
Property taxes 1.2%
Home owners Insurance $800 yr
Including PMI
HOA $50 mnth

Monthly payment $951

Obviously some variables will change, but damn, $1300 is way off.
Also, you dont need to buy a house...you can buy a condo.  You know that if you are paying $900 to rent your apartment, it is costing LESS to own it, or the owner wouldnt make any cabbage doing so.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: Skeever on April 07, 2015, 07:01:58 PM
First, where do you live?

Second, your numbers seem a bit off to me.
I ran a mortgage calculator on 130k with taxes and insurance, and 1300 is WAAAAAAY too high
I live in the Philly suburbs. A typical house costing 130k here will have anywhere between $4-7k annually in taxes. I think tax rate is something like 3-4% usually in Camden County, where I work. So even if that mortgages out to $600 a month or so, you're paying another 500 in taxes, then PMI, insurance, etc.

The sticking point for me has been that the 130k house is either a decent house in a below average area or a something that needs waaaaay too much TLC in a better area (and in that case flippers buy way before you can get your FHA bid in anyway).
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: eric42434224 on April 07, 2015, 07:02:47 PM
what zip code or town?
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: Skeever on April 07, 2015, 07:04:47 PM
what zip code or town?

We'd been looking at a number of towns, but this is the county that I work in: http://www.state.nj.us/treasury/taxation/pdf/lpt/gtr14cam.pdf
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: eric42434224 on April 07, 2015, 07:05:08 PM
Skeever, I think you are misinformed about property tax rates.  The highest tax rate in Pensylvania is like 1.25% (Chester County)
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: eric42434224 on April 07, 2015, 07:07:52 PM
what zip code or town?

We'd been looking at a number of towns, but this is the county that I work in: http://www.state.nj.us/treasury/taxation/pdf/lpt/gtr14cam.pdf

Camnden is one of the highest in the country, but the property taxes there will be about 2.5% of fair market value of the house.
2.5% is about double the average.

I think what you showed me was state income tax
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: eric42434224 on April 07, 2015, 07:14:57 PM
First, where do you live?

Second, your numbers seem a bit off to me.
I ran a mortgage calculator on 130k with taxes and insurance, and 1300 is WAAAAAAY too high
I live in the Philly suburbs. A typical house costing 130k here will have anywhere between $4-7k annually in taxes. I think tax rate is something like 3-4% usually in Camden County, where I work. So even if that mortgages out to $600 a month or so, you're paying another 500 in taxes, then PMI, insurance, etc.

The sticking point for me has been that the 130k house is either a decent house in a below average area or a something that needs waaaaay too much TLC in a better area (and in that case flippers buy way before you can get your FHA bid in anyway).

Some areas arent great for home ownership.  Yours personal situation and area might be one.
But at least run the correct numbers before you make a decision.  Your info on taxes was double what it should be.  And dont discount that your mortgage stays the same while rent will increase, and you build equity.  It may be a scarafice for the first few years in what you can afford, but in the long term, home ownership has huge value.

Good luck on your decision!
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: El Barto on April 07, 2015, 07:17:24 PM

Also, you dont need to buy a house...you can buy a condo.  You know that if you are paying $900 to rent your apartment, it is costing LESS to own it, or the owner wouldnt make any cabbage doing so.
Well, not necessarily. My landlady bought this condo back when it was new and moved out once it was paid for.  Aside from taxes and insurance it's all cabbage to her. A quick search tells me I couldn't rent a smaller and generally crappy apartment in this zip for less than $50 more than I'm paying her. Add to that, I've had two rent increases in 5 years, the latest being a whopping $15. If something breaks (that I don't want to fix myself) it's done. She has her HVAC guy and chimney sweep come out regularly, and other than that I almost never hear from her.

Now, that said, I'm pretty interested in what you have to say, so keep it up.

As for what I might suggest to Skeever, from my perspective I only want to buy a house if it's where I want to retire. It's the mortgage free ownership at the end of the rainbow that's the selling point for me. Yet, I can't think of any place in Dallas that I'd want to run out the clock (assuming I even outlive a mortgage). Neighborhoods can change pretty quickly, as well. The house my mom bought for us when I was about 15 was in a nice neighborhood and now it's just terrible, in a terrible subburb that I can't even stand driving into.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: TempusVox on April 07, 2015, 07:20:05 PM
Never give money to someone else so that they can build equity in their own property. If you can build your own equity. And look around for the best deal you can. Maybe that means moving over a zip code or two.

I nearly fell out of my chair even with 1300 monthly mortgage payment. We pay 14,600 each month.  :lol
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: Skeever on April 07, 2015, 07:24:10 PM
I may be a bit confused about the rate (not a numbers guy), but I'm certainly not confused about the monthly cost since we've had to think about that a lot in the last few months. The typical house we see for 130-150K here has anywhere from 4k-6k in taxes per year. Here's what I just ran on Zillow (note the small print):

(http://i.imgur.com/n3djIDE.png)

Keep in mind these areas aren't really that great, have schools that are "approaching standard", etc. Also keep in mind this isn't even considering the PMI we'd have to pay with FHA.

Thanks for your patience, though. Your response is basically what we're getting everywhere, i.e., people can't believe buying is so expensive.

As for what I might suggest to Skeever, from my perspective I only want to buy a house if it's where I want to retire. It's the mortgage free ownership at the end of the rainbow that's the selling point for me. Yet, I can't think of any place in Dallas that I'd want to run out the clock (assuming I even outlive a mortgage). Neighborhoods can change pretty quickly, as well. The house my mom bought for us when I was about 15 was in a nice neighborhood and now it's just terrible, in a terrible subburb that I can't even stand driving into.

Yeah, that's an issue for me. Where I live and work (Camden county, NJ, ten miles outside of THE Camden), it seems like all the typical middle class neighborhoods are pretty stagnant, right on the cusp between areas that are doing OK and neighborhoods that are the first to disappear as the working middle class go to hell.

Never give money to someone else so that they can build equity in their own property. If you can build your own equity. And look around for the best deal you can. Maybe that means moving over a zip code or two.

I nearly fell out of my chair even with 1300 monthly mortgage payment. We pay 14,600 each month.  :lol
Well don't I feel even more shitty now  ???
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: eric42434224 on April 07, 2015, 07:29:17 PM

Also, you dont need to buy a house...you can buy a condo.  You know that if you are paying $900 to rent your apartment, it is costing LESS to own it, or the owner wouldnt make any cabbage doing so.
Well, not necessarily. My landlady bought this condo back when it was new and moved out once it was paid for.  Aside from taxes and insurance it's all cabbage to her. A quick search tells me I couldn't rent a smaller and generally crappy apartment in this zip for less than $50 more than I'm paying her. Add to that, I've had two rent increases in 5 years, the latest being a whopping $15. If something breaks (that I don't want to fix myself) it's done. She has her HVAC guy and chimney sweep come out regularly, and other than that I almost never hear from her.

Now, that said, I'm pretty interested in what you have to say, so keep it up.

As for what I might suggest to Skeever, from my perspective I only want to buy a house if it's where I want to retire. It's the mortgage free ownership at the end of the rainbow that's the selling point for me. Yet, I can't think of any place in Dallas that I'd want to run out the clock (assuming I even outlive a mortgage). Neighborhoods can change pretty quickly, as well. The house my mom bought for us when I was about 15 was in a nice neighborhood and now it's just terrible, in a terrible subburb that I can't even stand driving into.

I think your rental experience is the exception rather than the rule.  Almost every rental I have lived in had yearly increases.

And I think your opinion on buying a house to retire in is misguided.  Most people dont do that.  Your LOAN is 30 years, and it is not a requirement to stay there.  If you want to move, you can move, and use equity to leverage the next home.
And if you always rent, the only way you can buy your retirement home mortgage free is to pay cash when you are ready to retire.
Most people that rent cant put away enough money for retirement funds AND a cash home purchase.

Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: eric42434224 on April 07, 2015, 07:31:23 PM
I may be a bit confused about the rate (not a numbers guy), but I'm certainly not confused about the monthly cost since we've had to think about that a lot in the last few months. The typical house we see for 130-150K here has anywhere from 4k-6k in taxes per year. Here's what I just ran on Zillow (note the small print):

(http://i.imgur.com/n3djIDE.png)


That shows nothing about taxes, PMI, insurance, or HOA.
That only shows Principal and Interest on the loan

The taxes in that county are 2.5% of the fair market value of the house.  That is fact and is on the NJ website.  That is VERY high, double the average. 
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: Skeever on April 07, 2015, 07:32:25 PM
Note the small print (estimated taxes and insurance).
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: TempusVox on April 07, 2015, 07:34:55 PM

Well don't I feel even more shitty now  ???

Why would you? It's all relative to your experience. I've lived in 130,000 homes and loved them. I wasn't born with a silver spoon in my mouth. You might hate my houses. My mortgage payment doesn't make anyone elses house any less a home. Besides, try cutting my grass sometime. It's a pain in the ass.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: eric42434224 on April 07, 2015, 07:35:36 PM
Note the small print (estimated taxes and insurance).

That means NOTHING.  It is estimated.  Before you make a decision, use real numbers.  Use a more detailed calculator that shows more accurate numbers like property tax rates.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: eric42434224 on April 07, 2015, 07:41:37 PM
http://www.zillow.com/mortgage-calculator/ (http://www.zillow.com/mortgage-calculator/)


Use this calculator and click "advanced" below it.
Use 2.5% for property taxes.
That will actually be higher than you will pay as you will not be taxed on the 130., depending on homestead expemptions etc.
But it will show you worst case scenario for taxes.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: lordxizor on April 07, 2015, 07:45:01 PM
One thing you have to keep in mind is maintenance on a home you own. If you rent, you just call the landlord to fix the furnace or fridge. If you own the home, you have to pay to fix it. The general rule is to assume 2+% of the value of the home per year in maintenance.

In general, I think home ownership is overrated. There are benefits to owning your own home, but there are benefits to renting as well. The flexibility to move when you want to at the end of your lease instead of having to sell a home may be worth something to you. Increasing home values are not guaranteed and historically only barely outpace inflation.

All that said, I am moving into a house we're buying in a few weeks because we want some stability for our family and interest rates are ridiculously low right now. We are going to be paying 3.375%. Plus we want to be able to make the house our own which is difficult to do in a rental.

Don't let anyone tell you that you should buy a house if you don't feel strongly that you want to. There's nothing wrong with renting. You are not "throwing money away" as people like to say. You are paying money for a roof over your head. That getting value for your money. When you buy you throw away absurd amounts of money to the interest, so it's not like you're getting something beneficial out of everything you're paying.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: eric42434224 on April 07, 2015, 07:48:49 PM
From the Zillow calculator:


130k home price
4% down payment $5200
Interest rate 4.3%
30 year fixed

P & I  618 / mnth
Taxes $271 / mnth
Home owners insurance $67 / mth
PMI $102 a month (this goes away after you have 20% equity)

$1057 monthly payment all in.


Not saying home ownership is for you, but at least make sure your arguments against it are sound.
Dont use the "working x hours to pay a mortgage", as you have to work x hours to pay rent too.
Dont use incorrect tax info either.

My advice is to take the emotion out of it and run the CORRECT numbers, and consider the pros and cons, and make an informed and logical decision for you and your family.
Good luck man.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: TempusVox on April 07, 2015, 07:51:35 PM
The biggest factor you should use is do you plan on staying put for more than the next 4 or 5 years? If you plan on moving from the area, then renting is probably the way to go. But if your roots are semi permanent my advice would be to buy a home your family could grow with somewhat. It doesn't need to be your forever home, but it should be something that allows you room if you plan on having kids soon.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: eric42434224 on April 07, 2015, 07:51:54 PM
One thing you have to keep in mind is maintenance on a home you own. If you rent, you just call the landlord to fix the furnace or fridge. If you own the home, you have to pay to fix it. The general rule is to assume 2+% of the value of the home per year in maintenance.

In general, I think home ownership is overrated. There are benefits to owning your own home, but there are benefits to renting as well. The flexibility to move when you want to at the end of your lease instead of having to sell a home may be worth something to you. Increasing home values are not guaranteed and historically only barely outpace inflation.

All that said, I am moving into a house we're buying in a few weeks because we want some stability for our family and interest rates are ridiculously low right now. We are going to be paying 3.375%. Plus we want to be able to make the house our own which is difficult to do in a rental.

Don't let anyone tell you that you should buy a house if you don't feel strongly that you want to. There's nothing wrong with renting. You are not "throwing money away" as people like to say. You are paying money for a roof over your head. That getting value for your money. When you buy you throw away absurd amounts of money to the interest, so it's not like you're getting something beneficial out of everything you're paying.

Agreed.  It depends a LOT on the area they live in (that particular housing market), and what lifestyle and future plans they have.  Sometimes renting is the logical choice.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: lordxizor on April 07, 2015, 07:51:54 PM
PMI $102 a month (this goes away after you have 20% equity)
Not sure about conventional mortgages, but if it's an FHA mortgage, the PMI does not go away unless you refinance and have 20% equity. The rules recently changed on that. I'm likely going to be stuck paying $160 a month for the next 30 years since I'm getting such a low interest rate it may never make sense to refinance.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: eric42434224 on April 07, 2015, 07:52:54 PM
PMI $102 a month (this goes away after you have 20% equity)
Not sure about conventional mortgages, but if it's an FHA mortgage, the PMI does not go away unless you refinance and have 20% equity. The rules recently changed on that. I'm likely going to be stuck paying $160 a month for the next 30 years since I'm getting such a low interest rate it may never make sense to refinance.

You cant pay to get get an appraisal and show you have the equity?
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: lordxizor on April 07, 2015, 07:53:26 PM
PMI $102 a month (this goes away after you have 20% equity)
Not sure about conventional mortgages, but if it's an FHA mortgage, the PMI does not go away unless you refinance and have 20% equity. The rules recently changed on that. I'm likely going to be stuck paying $160 a month for the next 30 years since I'm getting such a low interest rate it may never make sense to refinance.

You cant pay to get get an appraisal and show you have the equity?
Nope. You need to refinance to get rid of the PMI.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: eric42434224 on April 07, 2015, 07:55:18 PM
PMI $102 a month (this goes away after you have 20% equity)
Not sure about conventional mortgages, but if it's an FHA mortgage, the PMI does not go away unless you refinance and have 20% equity. The rules recently changed on that. I'm likely going to be stuck paying $160 a month for the next 30 years since I'm getting such a low interest rate it may never make sense to refinance.

You cant pay to get get an appraisal and show you have the equity?
Nope. You need to refinance to get rid of the PMI.

Well that just sucks.  But I guess it is part of the deal to get a loan with such a low down payment.

Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: lordxizor on April 07, 2015, 08:01:48 PM
PMI $102 a month (this goes away after you have 20% equity)
Not sure about conventional mortgages, but if it's an FHA mortgage, the PMI does not go away unless you refinance and have 20% equity. The rules recently changed on that. I'm likely going to be stuck paying $160 a month for the next 30 years since I'm getting such a low interest rate it may never make sense to refinance.

You cant pay to get get an appraisal and show you have the equity?
Nope. You need to refinance to get rid of the PMI.

Well that just sucks.  But I guess it is part of the deal to get a loan with such a low down payment.


It does indeed suck, but to balance it out they dropped the PMI % payment by half.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: eric42434224 on April 07, 2015, 08:10:37 PM
Increasing home values are not guaranteed and historically only barely outpace inflation.



Even if it just outpaced inflation, at least in appreciated.  And the payment is fixed.

A rental has no appreciation, and the problem also is that rent increases just over inflation as well.


------


Home equity goes up and payment stays the same.

Rental equity stays at zero and payment goes up.

Yes there are a myriad of other factors (area, lifestyle, taxes, insurance, future plans).

Just run the numbers, ask yourself the hard questions about your needs and future, and do a comparison.... and your decision will be apparent

Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: eric42434224 on April 07, 2015, 08:10:51 PM
double post
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: eric42434224 on April 07, 2015, 08:11:27 PM
PMI $102 a month (this goes away after you have 20% equity)
Not sure about conventional mortgages, but if it's an FHA mortgage, the PMI does not go away unless you refinance and have 20% equity. The rules recently changed on that. I'm likely going to be stuck paying $160 a month for the next 30 years since I'm getting such a low interest rate it may never make sense to refinance.

You cant pay to get get an appraisal and show you have the equity?
Nope. You need to refinance to get rid of the PMI.

Well that just sucks.  But I guess it is part of the deal to get a loan with such a low down payment.


It does indeed suck, but to balance it out they dropped the PMI % payment by half.

Well then that sucks only half as much as I thought!  Good luck with the house!
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: Skeever on April 07, 2015, 08:29:29 PM
I will admit that a lot of my hesitation toward home owning may stem from a lack of education on personal finance issues. I know how to balance my own budget, but I'm certainly not very knowledgeable on what I should pay for things, how I should go about getting loan, what kind of loan I should get, what I should put down, etc. I guess I should get educated. Easier said than done, though. Part of what's so scary to me is the risk of it all. As a first time home buyer who's also on his first real job, I don't want to make a mistake and I don't want to get ripped off, and I definitely don't want to get in over my head. Unfortunately those are all things which realtors don't seem to care much about. Oh well. I guess I'll figure it out. Slow and steady wins the race, I suppose, and it won't kill me to rent while I try and figure out what's best for me. 
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: eric42434224 on April 07, 2015, 08:32:43 PM
Excellent
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: Chino on April 08, 2015, 06:10:50 AM
Keep in mind the following post is coming from a 26 year old CT resident who has only been a home owner for 6 months.

If you want to rent anywhere in CT, you are going to have to share a wall, a ceiling, or a floor. Often times it's more than just one of those things. I hate sharing any face of my living space. Even if I bought a condo, that would have still been an issue. I got a fixed 30 year loan at the stupid low interest rate of 3.25% and I only had to put 3.5% down. After taxes, insurance, PMI, and the bank payment, I'm paying $1282 per month before utilities. My house is 1650 square feet, not counting the finished basement. It has three bed rooms and two full baths. That kind of space rented in this area would be at least $1700 per month (most likely more).

The biggest defense for owning a home (imo) is that if I lived in an apartment for five years at $1500 per month, I'd have spent $90k. I'd then need to find a new place to live with whatever is in my bank account. That $90k would completely disappear from my life forever. WIth the house, even if my property value goes down, I still have an asset I can sell. I have something worth real money. If the housing market picks up, I could actually make money off of the house.

There are some shitty things about owning a house though. Having to maintain the property can be a pain in the ass. I envy my friends in condo complexes that never have to touch a shovel during the winter months. Also, if a major appliance goes, it's on you to replace it. Most apartment complexes take care of that kind of thing (I think).

All I know is, I wouldn't want to have it any other way. It's definitely a little more expensive to own a home vs renting somewhere, but I think the positives outweight the negatives. 
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: cramx3 on April 08, 2015, 06:14:32 AM
I purchased my house almost two years ago with my then fiance.  I was also scared about the commitment of a mortgage,  but I've never been happier with my living arrangements.  If you can afford rent and get a mortgage at around the same monthly rate then it's kind of a no brainer assuming you think you can live there for at least a few years.  When my fiance and I broke up, I was put into some serious crossroads about the house.  My x wanted to sell it, but I loved living there but was just concerned about paying the mortgage myself.  I ended up refinancing (to get my x off the mortgage and property deed) and its the best decision I could have made.  Now every month I gain more (albeit it very slightly) more equity into my home which I can use in the future to either take out loans or purchase a better house down the road.

Also, the biggest benefit is having something that is your own.  No one can stop me from doing what I want to my house or while I am in my house.  I can blast music, make a mess, have a party, redecorate, whatever.

You are married so this doesnt apply, but being a single 30 year old who owns a house has lead my to getting a lot more ladies.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: Chino on April 08, 2015, 06:17:52 AM
I will admit that a lot of my hesitation toward home owning may stem from a lack of education on personal finance issues. I know how to balance my own budget, but I'm certainly not very knowledgeable on what I should pay for things, how I should go about getting loan, what kind of loan I should get, what I should put down, etc. I guess I should get educated. Easier said than done, though. Part of what's so scary to me is the risk of it all. As a first time home buyer who's also on his first real job, I don't want to make a mistake and I don't want to get ripped off, and I definitely don't want to get in over my head. Unfortunately those are all things which realtors don't seem to care much about. Oh well.

I knew nothing going in. I called a mortgage broker on a whim who was very helpful. I didn't end up using her because the bank got me a .5% less interest rate, but she still helped get the ball rolling. I got a hold of a realtor we knew and she basically took care of everything (any realtor would. They want that comish). All the stuff I was afraid of not knowing how to do she just ended up doing/guiding me on. Sure I had to call banks and lawyers and stuff, but she helped me through the entire process and made it super easy.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: cramx3 on April 08, 2015, 06:25:45 AM
My mother is a real estate agent and while she is not the most knowledgeable in terms of mortgages and numbers, she knew people who were and being that they were all people who worked with my mom, I knew they would give me trustworthy information.  And definitely shop around for mortgages cause every broker has different tricks up their sleeve and I've had some who flat out told me they couldnt get me a mortgage while others could.  I went in knowing nothing and learned a lot in the process.  I don't think anything is that complicated that one can't learn and figure things out as they go. 
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: Stadler on April 08, 2015, 07:32:02 AM
I will admit that a lot of my hesitation toward home owning may stem from a lack of education on personal finance issues. I know how to balance my own budget, but I'm certainly not very knowledgeable on what I should pay for things, how I should go about getting loan, what kind of loan I should get, what I should put down, etc. I guess I should get educated. Easier said than done, though. Part of what's so scary to me is the risk of it all. As a first time home buyer who's also on his first real job, I don't want to make a mistake and I don't want to get ripped off, and I definitely don't want to get in over my head. Unfortunately those are all things which realtors don't seem to care much about. Oh well. I guess I'll figure it out. Slow and steady wins the race, I suppose, and it won't kill me to rent while I try and figure out what's best for me.

Honestly, and I'll take the flack from this, but you sound like you have your mind made up and are finding reasons to justify it.  I have owned five houses in my life - including one in the Philly area, where you are talking about - and I don't share one of your experiences.  Realtors are like any other profession:  there are good ones and there are shysters.  just so happens that near cities (like Philly) there are are more shysters per square mile than in a small town.   

It's already been said, but don't use "small print estimates".  Get REAL numbers.    Also, no one here has factored in closing costs (which could be bad if they come out of your pocket, but which many sellers will pay or contribute to) but also the tax benefit (which is good come tax time; you get to write off all the interest you paid on your investment). 

Also, while I can't argue with the "legwork" aspect of homeownership, if you renters think you are not paying for the snow removal service or the appliances/maintenance, you're not paying attention.   Rental properties are INVESTMENT properties.  The landlords want to make money.  And they factor in the cost of appliance replacement and maintenance and put it in your rent.   Sure, in a condo or apartment complex, it gets spread out among all the properties, but it is likely in a situation like that, it is spread out if you own as well (through common fees or homeowner association fees).   The only difference is in cash flow, but even then, you tend to lose, because you are paying for a replacement appliance that, if you move out before it breaks, you don't even get to use!   

There is always the exception to the rule, and I understand that (so no need to point it out) but as a general proposition, there is no financial way that - apples to apples - renting beats ownership of residential real property.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: kingshmegland on April 08, 2015, 07:34:12 AM
I was tired myself of paying rent.  It was like giving money away.  I wanted my own place to crank my music and movies and not worry about pissing off the neighbors.  At least now the money I'm paying for my house is going to an investment.  There is a sort of pride to owning our house.  I have the escrow rolled into our mortgage and we pay $1510.00 a month.  Without the escrow it's in the low $1100.00.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: cramx3 on April 08, 2015, 07:41:24 AM
The only way renting is better is if you dont plan on staying for a decent amount of time.  The closing costs of purchasing and selling will eat up profits on your investment if you dont stay long enough to earn enough equity or for the property to go up in value.  I think for most people its the commitment to staying in one place that leads to people renting instead of owning. 
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: bout to crash on April 08, 2015, 09:27:31 AM
Agreed with the above post and a lot of the other stuff here. I just bought a condo about a month ago so I'm by no means an expert, but here in Denver it just made sooo much more sense. The market is insane and rents are skyrocketing. I was paying $1045 for a one-bedroom/parking (only because I talked them into a year lease vs. a 6-month last summer), and the guy who moved into my old place is now paying $1140 just for rent. My mortgage payment and HOA are going to be just about the same as what I was paying before, except the new place is almost twice as big. It's not in the hip neighborhood I was in before, but it's only about six miles away. I'm not a hugely committal person so it was a big decision, but really, if I decide I hate this place and need to move in a couple years, I can rent it out and then maybe buy a place in my old hood or whatever. There are lots of options, but right now I don't want to go anywhere... and I never fucking want to move again because moving sucks  :lol

Like Chino said, I did not know a lot about this process going in but my realtor pretty much did everything and walked me through it. I would also recommend talking to a lender to see what the numbers might be like- you're not committing to anything, but the one I worked with was super helpful and made it seem wayyy less scary for me. Property taxes in CO are way lower than in NJ, but still worth looking into. Like eric said, rents are pretty much just going to keep going up while a fixed rate mortgage stays the same. There were other things I wanted to post/agree with but I'm in a rush to get to work so I'll have to come back to this later. Oh, and I have a brother in South Jersey who is very knowledgeable and flips houses if you need a connection  ;)
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: Chino on April 08, 2015, 09:37:49 AM
Property taxes in CO are way lower in NJ, but still worth looking into.

Not including the taxes on my car, I pay $4800 per year in property taxes. My city is the third highest in the state.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: bout to crash on April 08, 2015, 10:28:11 AM
Holy crap! Granted my place is a lot smaller than yours, but I think my taxes are like $600?
(PS- I meant to say "way lower than in NJ" in case that wasn't clear- I will fix it)

I know my mom (in North Jersey) pays a ton. A cousin in that area actually had to sell her beautiful inherited house because the property taxes were so high (I think she said over $30,000 a year)  :|
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: kingshmegland on April 08, 2015, 10:36:53 AM
I own a 3 bedroom, one bathroom ranch style house and my taxes are $4000.00.  I have friends with huge houses that pay $11,000 in property taxes.  I don't know how they do it.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: cramx3 on April 08, 2015, 10:44:08 AM
I have a ~1000 sqaure foot two bedroom (technicaly its 3 bedroom but the 3rd would never be used as a bedroom, its an office for me) 1.5 bath house in NJ and my taxes... $6500 so yea its expensive in NJ.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: gmillerdrake on April 08, 2015, 12:05:03 PM
3125 s.f. (2) Story Home, $3800 per year in taxes. If you were to put my house in any of the surrounding counties it'd certainly double the taxes.

There is a lot of good advice about home ownership in this thread. The key points for me is that I'm creating equity for myself instead of a landlord. It's "mine". What we did differently with our recent build of a home and that loan as opposed to when we bought our first home is that we actually educated ourselves on what the heck we were doing   :lol  Meaning, how much $$ to put down, when to lock in rates....should we pay our PMI off in one lump sum (which we did)....just did a lot more research and at least understood the verbatim that industry uses. What ended up being a great thing was that I had (3) different entities vying for our loan. Up until the day I locked in none of them knew who was going to get the business. It was literally a phone call from one guy who offered me a rate...phoned the other two and said 'can you beat it'. I ended up ticking two people off but in the end I didn't really care, I was all about saving as much $$ as possible.


Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: Chino on April 08, 2015, 12:25:10 PM
That final call was so akward for me. The really nice mortgage broker that had helped me for over a month couldn't do any better than 3.75%. I told her what the bank was offering (3.25%) me and she said she couldn't even go as low as 3.5% I felt really bad telling her I was going elsewhere. I'm sure that happens literally every day in that profession, but still.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: gmillerdrake on April 08, 2015, 12:55:34 PM
That final call was so akward for me. The really nice mortgage broker that had helped me for over a month couldn't do any better than 3.75%. I told her what the bank was offering (3.25%) me and she said she couldn't even go as low as 3.5% I felt really bad telling her I was going elsewhere. I'm sure that happens literally every day in that profession, but still.

Dude....that's near identical to what I had to do. But it was vice versa. The bank, where this man had walked my wife and I through every step over several months....taught us all the lingo and what all that industry jargin' "really" meant....he couldn't come down the half percent I was gaining with a Mortgage Broker. That call to him was brutal because I liked him a lot. But in the end the amount of money I was saving over the course of the loan I couldn't ignore and be irresponsible like that.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: cramx3 on April 08, 2015, 12:58:33 PM
Sucks but thats business and nothing personal. Got to do whats best for you and even 0.01% differences can make a large difference over the course of a 30 year loan.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: Skeever on April 08, 2015, 04:54:04 PM
I have a ~1000 sqaure foot two bedroom (technicaly its 3 bedroom but the 3rd would never be used as a bedroom, its an office for me) 1.5 bath house in NJ and my taxes... $6500 so yea its expensive in NJ.
Yeah, no offense to those who've been really helpful in this thread, but it's obviously some people here aren't really believing how ridiculous NJ taxes can be. In my ballpark, seeing a house 130-150k where you'll need 4-6k annually in taxes is not uncommon at all. People have accused me of making up numbers because I've posted some quick examples that weren't quite right, but I've had real numbers run from the bank several times over the last year, and taxes are always very high. Most of the time the tax is almost doubling the mortgage. In fact, I've never seen a property in NJ where taxes came out to less than 3k annually (those properties are out in the sticks).

My experience thus far has been pretty mixed. Ideally, of course home ownership is better when everything works out. You buy a house, you pay it off, and when it's time to sell it at worst you break even. This on paper is the reason I've been looking at houses on and off for a year or more now. The reality I'm finding is, the houses a young couple can afford aren't in areas I'd want to live, and certainly not areas where I see neighborhoods improving. The other people my age that I know who are buying have gotten in over their heads.

That's why I'm so interesting in reading as many opinions as possible. I know on paper that this should work. What I'm finding is, it does not seem to be working for me at all. I've just been frustrated. I can't find a reasonable place to live and it sucks.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: eric42434224 on April 08, 2015, 05:10:56 PM


The facts are that the property taxes in Camden county NJ is about 2.5% of the property value.  If the county appraises the home value at 130k, then the property taxes will be 2.5% of that.  That will be $3250.  It really is that simple.
That is about double the national average...yes very high...but nowhere near doubling the mortgage P&I.

Instead of anecdotal evidence, call the county and get real numbers to base your decision on..
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: Skeever on April 08, 2015, 05:21:50 PM


The facts are that the property taxes in Camden county NJ is about 2.5% of the property value.  If the county appraises the home value at 130k, then the property taxes will be 2.5% of that.  That will be $3250.  It really is that simple.
That is about double the national average...yes very high...but nowhere near doubling the mortgage P&I.

Instead of anecdotal evidence, call the county and get real numbers to base your decision on..

Nobody I know in Camden County NJ plays that little in taxes. You're just going to have to give me this one, because I'm the one who's been here looking at places regularly and having numbers run.

Take a look Eric: http://www.state.nj.us/dca/divisions/dlgs/resources/property_tax.html
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: eric42434224 on April 08, 2015, 05:25:30 PM
http://www.tax-rates.org/new_jersey/camden_county_property_tax (http://www.tax-rates.org/new_jersey/camden_county_property_tax)



Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: Skeever on April 08, 2015, 05:30:32 PM
http://www.tax-rates.org/new_jersey/camden_county_property_tax (http://www.tax-rates.org/new_jersey/camden_county_property_tax)

Mine which is actually from the state breaks it down by hood. Not sure what's pulling the average down but I likely haven't looked into those areas due to distance. 10 miles in Camden County is a congested and hellish 10 miles.

Maybe I just need to find a new job in an area where it's cheaper to live ::shrugs::
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: eric42434224 on April 08, 2015, 05:32:58 PM
Agreed.  Those rates suck.  You should be getting daily handy's for those rates.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: Skeever on April 08, 2015, 05:45:08 PM
Yeah I should have renamed this thread something like "The Benefits of Home Ownership (Is Living in New Jersey Ever Worth It?)"
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: eric42434224 on April 08, 2015, 05:50:19 PM
Yeah I should have renamed this thread something like "The Benefits of Home Ownership (Is Living in New Jersey Ever Worth It?)"

As I said, it can depend on the area and that particular market.  Your area, coupled with your needs and resources, might not be the best scenario for home ownership.
Just do your due diligence and make the decision...and re-evaluate periodically.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: bout to crash on April 08, 2015, 08:05:45 PM
Yeah I should have renamed this thread something like "The Benefits of Home Ownership (Is Living in New Jersey Ever Worth It?)"

 :lol... I had to ask myself that question when I was done getting my MSW here in CO and had the option to come back to NJ (where most of my family/friends are). I decided that no, it was not worth it for me. I still love Jersey in many ways and I miss things/people there, but I am SO glad I moved to a different part of the country. Denver is more laid back and friendly, cheaper, weather is better, etc. etc. Really the only things I miss are the city, the beach, the pizza and the bagels.

Sort of off-topic from the OP, but have you ever thought about leaving the area? What's keeping you there? I ask because a lot of my friends back in NJ do a lot of complaining about how much this-and-that sucks, but they would never consider moving. It's interesting.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: Calvin6s on April 08, 2015, 08:45:04 PM
1.  Rent control.  If you pay $1200/month now, you will more or less pay $1200/month 25 years from now.  The only thing that changes that is the TI in PITI (Principal Interest Taxes Insurance).
2.  I own a home, but rent my office/warehouse space.  I hate renting because every improvement decision begins with "well, how long am I actually going to stay here?  Will they let me?  It isn't as if I get an increased sale value for this improvement"

There are tons of benefits, but those might be the top two I can think of off the top of my head.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: Calvin6s on April 08, 2015, 08:50:14 PM
There really is only one positive with renting.  Mobility.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: Podaar on April 09, 2015, 03:45:06 AM
Yes, home ownership has always been of financial benefit for me as well. I do remember wondering how I was going to ever make those payments for all those years!  :omg:

The silly thing will be paid off in just a few years now! Time passes, and while it did, my payments stayed steady while my income grew.

One aspect that hasn't been discussed, my favorite benefit from home ownership is fixing the fucker up. I just love home improvement...the planning, execution and the sense of accomplishment.

The idea.
(https://scontent-sjc.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xaf1/v/t1.0-9/292441_4362929760513_1441587684_n.jpg?oh=42aee3276f96377a6627d4b0b08a7c5e&oe=559F03D4)
The plan
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xfa1/v/t1.0-9/418384_4362626472931_202842322_n.jpg?oh=ee6f684f6518c93d970af5904aaeb3ef&oe=55A004DA&__gda__=1437246482_d1c3ea274ddd898f3614223dd78939c6)
The execution
(https://scontent-sjc.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xaf1/v/t1.0-9/303678_4446873059043_857168705_n.jpg?oh=e0dd6c79ed8ac12ea98215efbedf6855&oe=55E133B6)
(https://scontent-sjc.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xaf1/v/t1.0-9/405790_4482500829715_518953624_n.jpg?oh=cb2335a843a4acf587ada275d1406b23&oe=55A56A3E)
(https://scontent-sjc.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfa1/v/t1.0-9/308065_4680621182600_94912696_n.jpg?oh=f498d5987b94bf4c97cc70b3ad53a6db&oe=55AB9918)
The reality
(https://scontent-sjc.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc3/v/t1.0-9/554169_4837108774692_368586340_n.jpg?oh=2d0625411efaa9fa35221085e4a37970&oe=55E628F8)
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: Skeever on April 09, 2015, 05:27:11 AM
Sort of off-topic from the OP, but have you ever thought about leaving the area? What's keeping you there? I ask because a lot of my friends back in NJ do a lot of complaining about how much this-and-that sucks, but they would never consider moving. It's interesting.

Family is a big part. One of us has a very sick parent, so we're going through all of that chaos and couldn't move now. But even if that weren't the case, I'd have to think long and hard about moving. I do like the cultural aspect of living in Jersey (if you can't find something to do in Philly, NYC is only a train ride away).
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: Chino on April 09, 2015, 05:56:56 AM
That's one of the huge perks of living in CT. There are six states I can get to in about two hours.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: cramx3 on April 09, 2015, 06:00:00 AM
Really the only things I miss are the city, the beach, the pizza and the bagels.

Yes! All good reasons to love NJ.  For me, my family and friends are here so that plays a large role in me sticking around in NJ and yea the taxes are insane, but I live 50 minutes from NYC and 90 minutes from Philly, the beach is a mile away, any store is within 10 miles.  I feel like I am in a great spot for what I like so to me, the taxes are something I will pay to be where I want to be. 

The facts are that the property taxes in Camden county NJ is about 2.5% of the property value.

I am in Monmouth county and doing the math of my taxes 6500 over the cost of my house 250k then thats 2.6% for me.

And to add another benefit of homeownership, just to give an idea of property value.  I bought my house at 250 and thats also what the bank valued the house at as well, but I refinanced last fall and the new value was given at 265k and I have not even done any improvements to the home besides cosmetic improvements.  The value went up due to people buying similar properties in the area at higher prices therefore raising my value without me having to do a whole lot which then let me borrow more money from the bank.  All great things for a home owner!
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: kingshmegland on April 09, 2015, 06:15:05 AM
There really is only one positive with renting.  Mobility.

What's so great about that?  I hated every damn move!
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: Chino on April 09, 2015, 06:41:36 AM
There really is only one positive with renting.  Mobility.

What's so great about that?  I hated every damn move!

 :lol I was going to say... moving your stuff is like a journey into the darkest part of your soul. I absolutely hate it. Every single bit of it.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: Stadler on April 09, 2015, 06:50:17 AM
There really is only one positive with renting.  Mobility.

What's so great about that?  I hated every damn move!

And even that is an over-rated benefit, because most leases require you to pay out the remainder of the lease (or lose the security deposit), whereas with a house, as Jackie astutely pointed out, you can always rent it out and make money that way.  I work for a large conglomerate who brings good things to life, and so I could be required to move at any time for my job, and I STILL would choose owning over renting every single time. 

Skeever, unless you have some other limitation (can't drive, won't drive) it seems to me there are a lot more options than you are looking at.  If you want to identify a house or two that you are looking at and PM me, I will walk you through as best I can what you are looking at, and show you some alternatives.  Not trying to convince you of anything (it's your call based on your comfort level) but as I and others have said, at LEAST have the right numbers in front of you when you are making the decision. 
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: Calvin6s on April 09, 2015, 03:57:55 PM
There really is only one positive with renting.  Mobility.

What's so great about that?  I hated every damn move!

Job opportunities.  I moved to Las Vegas in the 90s and cut me teeth on my profession.  It would have been more difficult if I had a house.  Renting the house is something you can do, but sometimes you get a great renter, sometimes you get the renter from hell.  And now you are driving back on your weekends to pacify them, costing you your sanity and possibly losing focus at your great new job.

But once again:  Home ownership pros = Lots v. Renting pros = one
Just trying to be impartial
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: JayOctavarium on April 09, 2015, 11:45:11 PM
This has got to be the most interesting thread I've read on DTF in a while.


I have very limited knowledge on the subject but one thing that makes buying worthwhile is the $$$.

A year or so ago Panda and I started looking in to the idea of buying a place together. Nothing extravagant... like a condo in the sub $200k range (under $130 would have been preferred.) We met with a broker and ran the numbers and we could have gotten something small (900-1000 square ft), which is exactly like what we are in now (we actually were considering buying the condo are in but the owner doesn't plan on selling yet) and we could have, with everything including HOA payments, been paying like $1100 a month. Right now we pay $1350 a month in rent.

We obviously didn't wind up doing it but it was an eye opener.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: Jarlaxle on April 10, 2015, 12:23:21 AM
Your guys' housing market is so cheap. A condo where I am (Saskatchewan, Canada) would run you anywhere frm 180k to 250k. And you can't get a house cheaper than 300k, unless you want to live in Stabsville.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: eric42434224 on April 10, 2015, 06:59:29 AM
Your guys' housing market is so cheap. A condo where I am (Saskatchewan, Canada) would run you anywhere frm 180k to 250k. And you can't get a house cheaper than 300k, unless you want to live in Stabsville.

You are neglecting the exchange rate between US and Canadian Dollar.
300k in Canada is 238k in US.  Big Difference.


And $297k is the average house price in Saskatchewan, Canada.
The average adjusted to Canadian Dollars house price in Ft. Lauderdale, FL is $358k

I think your market is the cheap one
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: Stadler on April 10, 2015, 08:05:02 AM
...and we could have, with everything including HOA payments, been paying like $1100 a month. Right now we pay $1350 a month in rent.

Here was the eye-opener for me:  granted, he has additional risk (which is why the premium), but every five months, you're giving him one whole additional mortgage payment. 
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: cramx3 on April 10, 2015, 08:22:24 AM
...and we could have, with everything including HOA payments, been paying like $1100 a month. Right now we pay $1350 a month in rent.

Here was the eye-opener for me:  granted, he has additional risk (which is why the premium), but every five months, you're giving him one whole additional mortgage payment.

And that extra payment every five months goes a long way to paying less interest!  No penalties for paying more on the mortgage so if you can afford to, its a good place to put your money.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: eric42434224 on April 10, 2015, 08:28:41 AM
...and we could have, with everything including HOA payments, been paying like $1100 a month. Right now we pay $1350 a month in rent.

Here was the eye-opener for me:  granted, he has additional risk (which is why the premium), but every five months, you're giving him one whole additional mortgage payment.

And that extra payment every five months goes a long way to paying less interest!  No penalties for paying more on the mortgage so if you can afford to, its a good place to put your money.

Paying down the mortgage is not always the smartest.  If you have a low rate, coupled with tax deuctions, the cost of leveraging the banks money to get the equity of the appreciating asset is just too low to not use.  The extra income stream from the rental would be better served in long term investments (tax deferred retirement if they are allowed).  A properly constructed, asset allocated portfolio, where one dollar cost averages in, will out perform the benefits of paying down a mortgage early in most scenario.s
But you never know the actual scenario of the owner.  Paying down a mortgage early sounds great, b ut it is not always the most efficient thing to do.
Having accessible funds in retirement is easier than having to tap the equity in your properties.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: cramx3 on April 10, 2015, 08:34:26 AM
...and we could have, with everything including HOA payments, been paying like $1100 a month. Right now we pay $1350 a month in rent.

Here was the eye-opener for me:  granted, he has additional risk (which is why the premium), but every five months, you're giving him one whole additional mortgage payment.

And that extra payment every five months goes a long way to paying less interest!  No penalties for paying more on the mortgage so if you can afford to, its a good place to put your money.

Paying down the mortgage is not always the smartest.  If you have a low rate, coupled with tax deuctions, the cost of leveraging the banks money to get the equity of the appreciating asset is just too low to not use.  The extra income stream from the rental would be better served in long term investments (tax deferred retirement if they are allowed).  A properly constructed, asset allocated portfolio, where one dollar cost averages in, will out perform the benefits of paying down a mortgage early in most scenario.s
But you never know the actual scenario of the owner.  Paying down a mortgage early sounds great, b ut it is not always the most efficient thing to do.
Having accessible funds in retirement is easier than having to tap the equity in your properties.

Assuming the interest rate is low (which they are now) then yes, money could be put in better places, but if you owe a lot on a house, even with a low rate, you are still paying a lot of money in interest that you could be saving.  Also for me or others who used an FHA loan, getting to that 20% equity is a goal because you wont have to pay that extra PMI every month which comes out to ~$150 for me.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: eric42434224 on April 10, 2015, 08:55:54 AM
Agreed on the rate.  But it would be reasonable to assume that the property owner refinanced during the past few years and has a good rate.  Also, the majority of income property owners wont buy on FHA, and most wouldnt pay PMI.  I am sure some do and are landlords by necessity and circumstance, but most that own income properties dont.

But to answer you, it does all depend on the individual circumstances.  But the countless times I advise clients on these matters, when the numbers are run, it is usually advised that they do not pay down the mortgage.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: JayOctavarium on April 10, 2015, 09:02:12 AM
The guy who owns the place I rent bought it in cash a couple years ago and plans on renting it out for a few years and then flipping it.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: kirksnosehair on April 10, 2015, 01:14:55 PM
I will admit that a lot of my hesitation toward home owning may stem from a lack of education on personal finance issues. I know how to balance my own budget, but I'm certainly not very knowledgeable on what I should pay for things, how I should go about getting loan, what kind of loan I should get, what I should put down, etc. I guess I should get educated. Easier said than done, though. Part of what's so scary to me is the risk of it all. As a first time home buyer who's also on his first real job, I don't want to make a mistake and I don't want to get ripped off, and I definitely don't want to get in over my head. Unfortunately those are all things which realtors don't seem to care much about. Oh well. I guess I'll figure it out. Slow and steady wins the race, I suppose, and it won't kill me to rent while I try and figure out what's best for me.


I've purchased 2 homes in the last 15 years.  The first one was a 1000 sq ft cottage that cost $172,900 and I'd estimate that we put $20k into upgrades and repairs over the 12 years that we owned it.  I leased apartments before buying the first house.  The last lease we had on a 1 bedroom/1 bath apartment was $1100/month, that was in October of 2000.  When we moved into the first home we bought our mortgage/taxes/etc totaled about $1300/month, so our rent went up, but we went from living in about 600 sq ft to 1000 and that felt HUGE. (for about a week  :facepalm:  )




So anyway, that $1300/month lease was in 2000.  We moved into the house in October of 2000.  On the day we moved out of that house, the exact same apartment that we had lived in prior to the home was leased for $1750/month.  In 12 years of paying the full mortgage payment + $500 every month, by the time we sold the house ($223k) we had accumulated a LOT of equity ($140k) and it was that equity that allowed us to buy the home we live in now, which has more than 3 times the space the last one had.  It's also only about 30 years old.  The other one was 75 years old.


I felt the same way about buying a home that you feel, Skeever.  I was skeptical.  And afraid of getting myself in a big jam that I wouldn't be able to get myself out of.  But the wife and I took the plunge into home ownership and it was probably one of the best things we've ever done to lift ourselves up/challenge ourselves.  There is always going to be some measure of risk in buying a home, but overall I still believe it's the most reliable way to build wealth that average people have available to them.  And to have the benefit of living within the vehicle that is building that wealth for you, it's a win-win and imho it's a no-brainer.  You are practically guaranteed to come out ahead if you buy a home and stay in it for 5+ years.  And the longer you stay the more of the house you own.  Eventually you can borrow against that equity and that gives you a nice way to fund projects to improve your home, which increase the value of your investment...


For me, especially now with the benefit of hindsight, I'd say the benefits of home ownership far outweigh the negatives.  That's been my personal experience.  YMMV



Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: gmillerdrake on July 24, 2015, 08:06:54 AM
this seemed like the most appropriate thread to post this in. I built a small landscape stone wall on our front porch. Every home in our subdivision has these PVC clean out pipes for our sewer...in the front yard, so I've been wanting to hide it. I still need to back fill with dirt...cut the pipe down and then grab some vegetation....but I'm so glad to have this out of the way. After getting the materials in the morning at LOWES ($308.78 worth) and then getting it unloaded at home, I started just at noon. Finished up right around 7:00 pm. Long day, but as I said....happy to have this done.



(http://i791.photobucket.com/albums/yy197/gmillerdrake/5BF35AE3-A372-46FE-BBB5-05581733A5DE.jpg) (http://s791.photobucket.com/user/gmillerdrake/media/5BF35AE3-A372-46FE-BBB5-05581733A5DE.jpg.html)


(http://i791.photobucket.com/albums/yy197/gmillerdrake/727AB4DC-C2F0-40D3-9002-2F0271CC96A6.jpg) (http://s791.photobucket.com/user/gmillerdrake/media/727AB4DC-C2F0-40D3-9002-2F0271CC96A6.jpg.html)


(http://i791.photobucket.com/albums/yy197/gmillerdrake/430006E6-F790-48ED-98B7-F63AF319256C_1.jpg) (http://s791.photobucket.com/user/gmillerdrake/media/430006E6-F790-48ED-98B7-F63AF319256C_1.jpg.html)


(http://i791.photobucket.com/albums/yy197/gmillerdrake/00672A14-C766-460D-A558-8E5F9E85D311.jpg) (http://s791.photobucket.com/user/gmillerdrake/media/00672A14-C766-460D-A558-8E5F9E85D311.jpg.html)


(http://i791.photobucket.com/albums/yy197/gmillerdrake/9C2E357D-43C2-4504-AE84-7696021637CD.jpg) (http://s791.photobucket.com/user/gmillerdrake/media/9C2E357D-43C2-4504-AE84-7696021637CD.jpg.html)

(zoomed in...yeah, that's level  :tup)

(http://i791.photobucket.com/albums/yy197/gmillerdrake/4d27efc7-c68c-4b57-bea3-163bd45d351b.jpg) (http://s791.photobucket.com/user/gmillerdrake/media/4d27efc7-c68c-4b57-bea3-163bd45d351b.jpg.html)


(http://i791.photobucket.com/albums/yy197/gmillerdrake/B5339F65-1461-4E42-A105-F1E855442246_3.jpg) (http://s791.photobucket.com/user/gmillerdrake/media/B5339F65-1461-4E42-A105-F1E855442246_3.jpg.html)


(http://i791.photobucket.com/albums/yy197/gmillerdrake/32DAA5A7-5044-41C0-84C8-FD04D395E0B2_1.jpg) (http://s791.photobucket.com/user/gmillerdrake/media/32DAA5A7-5044-41C0-84C8-FD04D395E0B2_1.jpg.html)


(http://i791.photobucket.com/albums/yy197/gmillerdrake/26E0911C-E43E-43BB-911F-0EE459185489.jpg) (http://s791.photobucket.com/user/gmillerdrake/media/26E0911C-E43E-43BB-911F-0EE459185489.jpg.html)
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: cramx3 on July 24, 2015, 08:17:08 AM
Cool, nice job!  Your street looks like something out of a movie where all the houses are very similar and all clean cut.

Are you going to put plants in there once its backfilled? 
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: gmillerdrake on July 24, 2015, 08:36:50 AM
Cool, nice job!  Your street looks like something out of a movie where all the houses are very similar and all clean cut.

No kidding. That side of the street is very conducive for the 'walk out' basements. The builder offers several different Ranch floor plans but it seems that out of the 20+ homes on that side of the street near all of them chose the same floor plan with similar outdoor finishes. The side of the street I'm on has more 2 story homes. But, they are all very clean and nice looking and what I like is that the Post Office has set up all our mailboxes in one location at the front entrance....so there isn't a mish mash of mailbox designs down the street and it looks more 'open'.

Are you going to put plants in there once its backfilled?

Oh yeah, just don't know what yet. Gonna get it filled in and then start looking in to that.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: kingshmegland on July 24, 2015, 01:57:24 PM
Mindblowing sex without waking the neighbors.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: Skeever on July 24, 2015, 06:53:45 PM
Wow, this thread got bumped.

Anyway, you guys might not believe it, but I'm a homeowner now.

Turns out my previous realtor blew in most ways imaginable. After "giving up" here, I contacted a new realtor a few days later who found me a new place in a matter of weeks. She actually explained things to me, helped me find an area I could afford, and was there every step of the way through my settlement process.

To the people who didn't believe me, I can now confirm that taxes are every bit as high in jersey as I claimed initially (suck it, eric) (jk). But still, it's been worth it so far. Yeah I'm paying about $300~ more than I was renting when you factor taxes in, but I can handle it, and it feels so much better to come home to a my own place as night.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: jingle.boy on July 24, 2015, 08:43:44 PM
Nice job Gary.  Levelling out that elevation look so much more natural against your front porch.  Well done.  :tup
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: bout to crash on July 25, 2015, 01:18:10 AM
Nice Gary... and the pup!  :D

Wow, this thread got bumped.

Anyway, you guys might not believe it, but I'm a homeowner now.

Turns out my previous realtor blew in most ways imaginable. After "giving up" here, I contacted a new realtor a few days later who found me a new place in a matter of weeks. She actually explained things to me, helped me find an area I could afford, and was there every step of the way through my settlement process.

To the people who didn't believe me, I can now confirm that taxes are every bit as high in jersey as I claimed initially (suck it, eric) (jk). But still, it's been worth it so far. Yeah I'm paying about $300~ more than I was renting when you factor taxes in, but I can handle it, and it feels so much better to come home to a my own place as night.

Congrats!

My condo is feeling more and more like home- I've gotten some cool furniture and it's decorated just as weirdly as you guys would expect :lol... still trying to find more ways to make it homey, where to put things, etc. but it's getting there. And I have to say, though it would be nice to have a yard and a bit more privacy, I'm REALLY glad I don't have all the responsibility of a house. Maybe if I lived with somebody else, but no way I would be able to keep that shit up on my own.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: gmillerdrake on July 26, 2015, 08:14:46 PM
Tomorrow's project..... :tup


(http://i791.photobucket.com/albums/yy197/gmillerdrake/D104433F-7DFF-427D-BFD0-8DD257D4B113.jpg) (http://s791.photobucket.com/user/gmillerdrake/media/D104433F-7DFF-427D-BFD0-8DD257D4B113.jpg.html)
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: Chino on July 27, 2015, 06:51:26 AM
To the people who didn't believe me, I can now confirm that taxes are every bit as high in jersey as I claimed initially (suck it, eric) (jk). But still, it's been worth it so far. Yeah I'm paying about $300~ more than I was renting when you factor taxes in, but I can handle it, and it feels so much better to come home to a my own place as night.

Not to mention that you have an asset you can sell.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: Calvin6s on July 27, 2015, 07:45:23 AM
Not to mention that you have an asset you can sell.

And every improvement adds value to your use of the house as well as increasing that asset value.  I don't own my business office and I can't tell you how many decisions are made with a necessary 2-3 year RoI to even be considered.  What if I pay for solar panels and the landlord decides they can now charge more $/SF and raises the rent as high as legally possible.  I'm paying for the improvement twice.  And if I leave, I'm abandoning the investment before it pays for itself.  And you can remove the improvements you made, but it becomes more of a grudge thing at that point as you've already paid labor (and/or time of install).

Same concept with home ownership.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: Chino on July 27, 2015, 07:55:00 AM
Not to mention that you have an asset you can sell.

And every improvement adds value to your use of the house as well as increasing that asset value.  I don't own my business office and I can't tell you how many decisions are made with a necessary 2-3 year RoI to even be considered.  What if I pay for solar panels and the landlord decides they can now charge more $/SF and raises the rent as high as legally possible.  I'm paying for the improvement twice.  And if I leave, I'm abandoning the investment before it pays for itself.  And you can remove the improvements you made, but it becomes more of a grudge thing at that point as you've already paid labor (and/or time of install).

Same concept with home ownership.

I feel bad in that regard when I think about buying my house. I bought it off an old Lady who acquired the house in January 2008. She rebuilt the fireplace, in 2014 and put in a new furnace in early 2015. She included over $10k worth of kitchen and laundry appliances with the sale. She finished the attic and added a second full bath. Every room was repainted and she built a patio out back as well. I bought it for $2000 more than she did in 2008. I beat her up pretty good during negotiations, but I wasn't doing it to be an asshole. It was literally all the money I had and she didn't have to play ball.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: cramx3 on July 27, 2015, 08:10:15 AM
Not to mention that you have an asset you can sell.

And every improvement adds value to your use of the house as well as increasing that asset value.  I don't own my business office and I can't tell you how many decisions are made with a necessary 2-3 year RoI to even be considered.  What if I pay for solar panels and the landlord decides they can now charge more $/SF and raises the rent as high as legally possible.  I'm paying for the improvement twice.  And if I leave, I'm abandoning the investment before it pays for itself.  And you can remove the improvements you made, but it becomes more of a grudge thing at that point as you've already paid labor (and/or time of install).

Same concept with home ownership.

I feel bad in that regard when I think about buying my house. I bought it off an old Lady who acquired the house in January 2008. She rebuilt the fireplace, in 2014 and put in a new furnace in early 2015. She included over $10k worth of kitchen and laundry appliances with the sale. She finished the attic and added a second full bath. Every room was repainted and she built a patio out back as well. I bought it for $2000 more than she did in 2008. I beat her up pretty good during negotiations, but I wasn't doing it to be an asshole. It was literally all the money I had and she didn't have to play ball.

On a personal level you feel bad, but that's cause you are a decent guy.  Can't hold yourself back though cause it's a business decision and you got to do what you got to to make it happen, same with her.  At the end of the day, you both agreed.

I bought my house from a very old lady as well.  She had just redone the roofing and she sold the house to me for 20k less than her asking price and then at closing we argued for another 1k for a few minor issues we found in the house that morning that we thought could be costly, although ended up not being costly, but we were close to walking away at that point because we felt like she was lying to us.  Regardless, I'm sure she didn't get the best deal out there and for that I feel bad for her, but I don't feel too bad because she did agree to it all and she got the benefit of not having to deal with people viewing her house (went on the market Friday, we had our agreement the next Monday) which was something she was outspoken about (and my Mother who was my real estate agent, used to effectively get her to settle for a lower price).  It's just business.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: jingle.boy on July 27, 2015, 08:19:02 AM
Would either of you feel bad if you got that kinda deal, or did those kind of negotiations with a non "old-lady"?  So long as you weren't cruel, disrespectful or manipulative, there's nothing to feel bad about in negotiating anything, with anyone.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: Chino on July 27, 2015, 08:27:48 AM
Would either of you feel bad if you got that kinda deal, or did those kind of negotiations with a non "old-lady"?  So long as you weren't cruel, disrespectful or manipulative, there's nothing to feel bad about in negotiating anything, with anyone.

I think I'd still feel bad. I don't love the fact that I got someone else's $30K investment for free. Old lady definitely makes it worse though.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: cramx3 on July 27, 2015, 08:36:19 AM
Old lady definitely adds to the feel bad part, and if I was her, I am not sure if I would feel bad or not.  Probably though, and our negotiations only got nasty about one issue that we felt like she was lying about and that same conversation came up when we found more evidence of her lies at the closing table, but even then it was really just the lawyers getting nasty.  There was never ill will from us or the old lady, like I said, it's just business. 
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: Stadler on July 27, 2015, 09:39:25 AM
Maybe it's because I've done this so much (in process now of buying my sixth home) or because I a lawyer (no jokes please) but I left the "feel bad" thing behind long ago, for several reasons.  One, the "investment" is purely subjective.  When it comes to homes everyone has their "personal issues", meaning some of those "investments" aren't really.  Just because you spend "$x" dollars on a house doesn't mean that the value goes up the same amount.   In fact, more often than not, it has little if any effect.   Two, can't speak for your case, but in mine (also buying from an elderly couple, been in the house 45 years!!) there are agents and lawyers on both sides, and in fact I played HARDER ball because of the presence of the agent.  I don't know if she felt some obligation to the couple to be a pitbull, but she was totally obnoxious and on several occasions was abusive to our agent.   So for me, gloves were off.  Three, she set the price, and she - as a presumably able and competent adult - had the right at any time to say "no deal". 

Seriously, if you feel that bad and you want to make right, do it on the side out of the transaction, but within the terms of the home purchase you owe it to yourself and your family to cut the best deal you can.  You only have one shot at it (outside of re-financing). 
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: jasc15 on July 27, 2015, 02:07:06 PM
If you really want a house and can afford* one , then buy one, but don't fool yourself into thinking it is a smart investment.  Don't try to time the mortgage interest rates either.  People are paid lots of money and spend their entire careers trying to do that and still can't.  Don't be concerned about the house losing value, because you shouldn't be selling it in a time frame where that is likely to matter.

*i.e., 20% down payment, <28% of cash flow for mortgage payment, and <36% of cash flow for total debt payments, though I intend on having those percentages much less in my case.

A glib, but useful thought on home buying I once came across:

Quote
Owning home is like having an unpaid part-time job working for the bank maintaining their investment. When the mortgage is paid, you get a house that is 30 years older and in need of more repair.

my $.02
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: cramx3 on July 27, 2015, 02:16:27 PM
Like an investment there are risks and market conditions that are out of your control.  Regardless, from my understanding, owning a home is one of the better investments, not because of the profit, but because you get to live there and historically owning the house does give a monetary return besides the emotional return.  Also, timing the mortgage interest helped me save money on my loan.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: Calvin6s on July 27, 2015, 02:49:14 PM
I feel bad in that regard when I think about buying my house.

On a related but separate issue, when I bought a house for the sole purpose of reselling it at a higher rate during the Bush years, I had a friend that gave me "that is what makes it so guys like me can never afford a house."

This person is almost old enough to be my father.  And even though what he says holds merit, it is the thinking of an idealistic teenager (and this dude is not stupid).  Me not buying and selling a house is not going to change the marketplace.  It just means I'm going to get old and bitter grumbling how I had my principles.  I could have been financial secure, but I won't sell my soul in the process.  And I would probably be telling this in some sort of government line for financial support.  If you can see an opportunity and you aren't doing anything illegal, you should do it.  If you don't, somebody else will just fill your spot.

On the flip side, I managed to not be left holding any property other than my own residence in 2008.  I even had thoughts (correctly) that I could sell the house for what would be 2 to 3x the value by 2009-2010 and then buy one or even two houses outright.  It would have worked.  And every hunch I had was correct on timing.  But there is something about putting your own home on the gambling table.  What if I was wrong.  And the market just kept going up and I was priced out.  The downside was a long shot, but no matter how confident you are, once you get into the home market, it is very scary to actually get back out.  Sometimes fear wins out over all your instincts no matter how well they have served you.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: Stadler on July 28, 2015, 07:34:54 AM
If you really want a house and can afford* one , then buy one, but don't fool yourself into thinking it is a smart investment.  Don't try to time the mortgage interest rates either.  People are paid lots of money and spend their entire careers trying to do that and still can't.  Don't be concerned about the house losing value, because you shouldn't be selling it in a time frame where that is likely to matter.

*i.e., 20% down payment, <28% of cash flow for mortgage payment, and <36% of cash flow for total debt payments, though I intend on having those percentages much less in my case.

A glib, but useful thought on home buying I once came across:

Quote
Owning home is like having an unpaid part-time job working for the bank maintaining their investment. When the mortgage is paid, you get a house that is 30 years older and in need of more repair.

my $.02

That's "Twitter thinking" (used to be "Bumper-sticker thinking" back in the day), meaning, trying to shoehorn and over-simplify a concept that is for better or worse far more complex than it seems down to something quippy for Twitter.  Your quote sounds good, but doesn't hold water under more intense (read: ANY) scrutiny. 

That something is hard to do, and not a 100% sure thing doesn't make it "bad".   
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: jasc15 on July 28, 2015, 08:52:20 AM
That's "Twitter thinking" (used to be "Bumper-sticker thinking" back in the day), meaning, trying to shoehorn and over-simplify a concept that is for better or worse far more complex than it seems down to something quippy for Twitter.  Your quote sounds good, but doesn't hold water under more intense (read: ANY) scrutiny. 

That something is hard to do, and not a 100% sure thing doesn't make it "bad".   
Which is why it is not the basis of my point.  It was a "glib" comment which I added after making my point.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: Stadler on July 28, 2015, 12:00:08 PM
That's "Twitter thinking" (used to be "Bumper-sticker thinking" back in the day), meaning, trying to shoehorn and over-simplify a concept that is for better or worse far more complex than it seems down to something quippy for Twitter.  Your quote sounds good, but doesn't hold water under more intense (read: ANY) scrutiny. 

That something is hard to do, and not a 100% sure thing doesn't make it "bad".   
Which is why it is not the basis of my point.  It was a "glib" comment which I added after making my point.

But (respectfully), while you did acknowledge it was "glib", you also said it was "useful" - it is not - and, glib or not, it was in keeping with the remainder of your post, which I - again respectfully - disagree with. 
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: carl320 on September 16, 2015, 12:12:06 PM
Bump, since I've officially began the process of buying a house.  I was pre-approved for a loan through a local credit union today, which (I didn't realize until recently) I should have done before looking at houses.  Never mind that technicality.

No questions (as of now).  Kind of nervous, kind of excited.  Looking forward to finding out what's out there.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: cramx3 on September 16, 2015, 12:27:08 PM
Good luck and check out as much as you can, get different quotes, and hopefully you find a great home
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: Calvin6s on September 16, 2015, 04:59:30 PM
I was pre-approved for a loan through a local credit union today, which (I didn't realize until recently) I should have done before looking at houses.

It isn't mandatory, but it gives you leverage and keeps you from rushing the loan price to get a house you *have to have*.

Don't be afraid to reject a loan offer (although in this economy, it probably is tougher to do now).  The odds are there are going to be a few things in the long loan documents you won't like and will just have to accept.  But you don't have to accept everything thrown your way.  I know when I helped my parents sell their house (and use some of the proceeds to pay off the remainder of the old house), I spoke up about something they tried to include that would have added about $10,000+ in a prepayment penalty clause.  After a couple of phone calls, a couple of letters and a couple of predatory law #'s tossed their way, they waived it.  I remember telling the parents "you should have never signed this in the first place" and they said "it was the best loan we could get.  It was that or nothing."  This was about 15 years ago though, but most bad loans are simply because people sign anything put in front of them without realizing they can challenge parts of it.

Having a good relationship with your bank / credit union can help quite a bit as well.  There are tons of books on the process.

Oh, and when you are nearing the end or wrapping it up, the simultaneous feelings of "woo hoo" and "did I just bite off more than I can chew.  Is that fence 1/4" out of alignment?  I think I could have done better" are pretty normal.  After a few payments, it subsides.  And when your friend is mumbling about your rent going up, you will be jumping for joy.  Unless of course the bottom falls out of the market again and you have to wait 5-10 years just to gain back the value of your purchase.

Anthrax Belly of the Beast laugh ... a ha ha.     Ha ha    hahahahahahahahahahaha
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: Stadler on September 17, 2015, 07:53:37 AM
Couple things:  do NOT get intimidated by the loan process.  Ever since the market crash it has been an abomination to get a loan.   I have negotiated multiple contracts (commercially) in the $100MM range, and it was nothing like the paperwork I had to do for my recent loan.   I literally sent four 50+ page faxes (imagine the file size if I scanned THAT!) through the process.   

Second, Calvin is right:  as you near the end (and immediately after) your emotions are going to be like those balls on the cover of Octavarium.  Just remember, provided you pass the inspection (those are the best dollars you will ever spend, if you spend them right), there's very little that can't be fixed, repaired, made to look nice, with a little elbow grease and perhaps some help from your friends.

I know for me, I get great joy out of watching the principal go down month to month (even if it is slowly) and knowing I am putting money in my pocket.  Five to ten years isn't long to wait, especially since even with a GOOD market and accounting for moving costs and closing costs, five years is aggressive to see any real return.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: Chino on September 17, 2015, 07:55:49 AM
I feel like I must have gotten lucky when I bought my house. It took all of 10 minutes for my bank to give me $150k at 3.25%. I thought I was doing something wrong because it was so easy.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: Stadler on September 17, 2015, 08:07:40 AM
I feel like I must have gotten lucky when I bought my house. It took all of 10 minutes for my bank to give me $150k at 3.25%. I thought I was doing something wrong because it was so easy.

Well, full disclosure, I went FHA for several reasons, and I don't think I would have in a perfect world.  That was a lot of the administrative effort.   I needed to stay as liquid as I could, and couldn't bring a ton of cash to the closing.  So - and no red flags, I've done this before - I was able to get a little more house for the same amount of money down.  With three kids, two dogs, and a limited geography, it was the best compromise.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: cramx3 on September 17, 2015, 08:18:03 AM
I went conventional when I purchased the house, but had to go FHA when I refinanced on my own to get my x's name off everything since we went in 50/50 initially.  Didn't exactly have any cash after I paid her out so it was my only option to keep the house (which is close to my friends family, and easy commute to work.... plus I knew it would help scoring a future lady) plus it was a great investment while the rates were still low.  The paperwork is insane and the hours spent with my broker were a lot, stressful, and the thoughts in your mind are like what everyone is saying here, plus I had a lot of emotion running through my from the break up.  The initial buying process was a lot less stressful for me since my mother is a real estate agent so she made things super easy, plus gave me her commission that went back into the house (granite counter tops in the kitchen), and also set me up with a mortgage broker and lawyer who helped for little or no compensation.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: jingle.boy on September 17, 2015, 12:57:22 PM
Thank god for the Canadian banking system. 
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: Calvin6s on September 17, 2015, 08:59:01 PM
I feel like I must have gotten lucky when I bought my house. It took all of 10 minutes for my bank to give me $150k at 3.25%. I thought I was doing something wrong because it was so easy.
There's quite a bit more to a loan than that.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: Chino on September 18, 2015, 04:08:42 AM
I feel like I must have gotten lucky when I bought my house. It took all of 10 minutes for my bank to give me $150k at 3.25%. I thought I was doing something wrong because it was so easy.
There's quite a bit more to a loan than that.

Thanks for the heads up. I'll email myself from 11 months ago and let me know.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: cramx3 on September 18, 2015, 06:33:21 AM
10 minutes including the actual approval?  Took my bank awhile just to approve the loan after all the paperwork was submitted, which took way more than 10 minutes, heck just 10 minutes to print it all.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: Stadler on September 18, 2015, 06:35:31 AM
Thank god for the Canadian banking system.

Don't get me started; this is my fifth house - no defaults, no foreclosures, no bankruptcies, no modifications, EVER - and by FAR the most difficult to purchase.   We HAD a system that worked, but in typical fashion, the knee-jerk "punish the corporation" mentality of certain leadership has, as it inevitably does, trickled down to the consumer as opposed to ACTUALLY punishing the corporation, and well, we are where we are.  This is why Trump sounds so good to so many.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: Chino on September 18, 2015, 06:47:28 AM
10 minutes including the actual approval?  Took my bank awhile just to approve the loan after all the paperwork was submitted, which took way more than 10 minutes, heck just 10 minutes to print it all.

It wasn't literally 10 minutes  :lol Sorry if that came off as super serious. I spent about 15-20 minutes on the phone with a mortgage broker and had to fax a few things for identification purposes. The lowest I could get them was 3.5%. I called the guy at Webster Bank that my dad refinanced his mortgage with about two and a half years ago. I talked to him for about 10 minutes and faxed him a few paystubs. The bank approved my loan and called me back in less than a day saying they could do 3.25%. I had the house less than two weeks later. Regardless, I was expecting weeks of going back and forth and wanting to punch stuff, and it ended up being incredibly easy and hassle free.

I found dealing with the closing attorney (sorry Stadler) to be the most difficult part. The guy who was handling my closing (Kie Westby) was also running for attorney general and the election was in the same week as my closing date. He was super hard to reach and bailed about 4 hours before I was supposed to close.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: cramx3 on September 18, 2015, 06:49:47 AM
10 minutes including the actual approval?  Took my bank awhile just to approve the loan after all the paperwork was submitted, which took way more than 10 minutes, heck just 10 minutes to print it all.

It wasn't literally 10 minutes  :lol Sorry if that came off as super serious. I spent about 15-20 minutes on the phone with a mortgage broker and had to fax a few things for identification purposes. The lowest I could get them was 3.5%. I called the guy at Webster Bank that my dad refinanced his mortgage with about two and a half years ago. I talked to him for about 10 minutes and faxed him a few paystubs. The bank approved my loan and called me back in less than a day saying they could do 3.25%. I had the house less than two weeks later. Regardless, I was expecting weeks of going back and forth and wanting to punch stuff, and it ended up being incredibly easy and hassle free.

I found dealing with the closing attorney (sorry Stadler) to be the most difficult part. The guy who was handling my closing was also running for attorney general and the election was in the same week as my closing date. He was super hard to reach and bailed about 4 hours before I was supposed to close.

Wow, that is quick.  As I was reading, I was thinking this sounded just like the pre-approval process. 15 minute phone conversation and bam you get a number.  But since you said you actually closed, I am amazed, but that's great though.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: Stadler on September 18, 2015, 06:58:44 AM
The phone parts don't surprise me; in July I had a refi on a second home I own (also to get an ex off the mortgage) basically pre-approved in three phone calls and a Fed Ex package, which kind of sounds like what Chino is describing, but the "close in two weeks", that's a shocker, because even with the painless interaction with the consumer, there is still a lot of "behind the scenes":  appraisals, insurance, closing docs, title search, etc. that even if easy and painless, still takes time to do.   That wasn't too bad because it was not FHA and it was the same lender as the current mortgage, so they had a lot of my info, and had a credit history at their finger tips.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: carl320 on September 19, 2015, 01:26:32 PM
I was under the impression that I needed all of the pay stubs, tax returns, etc. for pre-approval so I had all of that on hand on Wednesday.  I guess that will help speed things up, and possibly help if I am interested in a place.

One gripe though.  I've looked at about ten houses already in a nearby town.  Just for reference, I live in Northern Indiana, 100 miles from Chicago so the COL is pretty low.  I went into the search with (what I thought) was a reasonable budget for the area (50-60k), and the houses I've looked at are junk.  I even raised the budget (90k) and I still find wavy floors, cracked slabs, and houses that smell like cat urine.  I know realtors are trying to sell houses, but do they go into the houses before they are listed? 

Maybe my budget is still way too low for the area I'm looking in...
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: bout to crash on September 19, 2015, 02:53:25 PM
They will probably ask you for your most recent pay stubs and stuff a couple of times during the process. That was annoying.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: Stadler on September 21, 2015, 07:11:57 AM
I was under the impression that I needed all of the pay stubs, tax returns, etc. for pre-approval so I had all of that on hand on Wednesday.  I guess that will help speed things up, and possibly help if I am interested in a place.

One gripe though.  I've looked at about ten houses already in a nearby town.  Just for reference, I live in Northern Indiana, 100 miles from Chicago so the COL is pretty low.  I went into the search with (what I thought) was a reasonable budget for the area (50-60k), and the houses I've looked at are junk.  I even raised the budget (90k) and I still find wavy floors, cracked slabs, and houses that smell like cat urine.  I know realtors are trying to sell houses, but do they go into the houses before they are listed? 

Maybe my budget is still way too low for the area I'm looking in...

This is meaningless in a direct way, since geography does play a part, but if you're talking HOUSE, and not condo or town home, my initial impression is that your numbers are unrealistically low if you are unwilling to put in effort (either rehab or cleaning).   Here, where I am (northern Connecticut) double your range, and you're STILL in "cat piss" zone.   Even in South Carolina, where the market is not fully back yet, you can't buy a reasonable townhome for less than $125K. 

As for the realtors, I'm not sure what you're asking them to do?  Their job is to sell the houses brought to them.  Cat urine smell and all.   If it is worth $60k, SOMEONE will buy it.   

What you might try is take a weekend and go the other way:  call an agent, tell them "I want this, that, and the other thing" and see what they show you.  You'll get three or four examples, you'll see what the asking prices are for those examples, then you can sit down with him/her and say "well, here's my desired range, and here's what I'm willing to compromise on" and see if the two circles (the set of houses you want and the set of houses that are for sale) overlap.  If they don't, you have a hard decision to make.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: cramx3 on September 21, 2015, 09:27:06 AM
Also without knowing the area, my initial thought is that budget is too low as well for a house that isn't going to have problems and need work.  I also live in NJ where the prices are ridiculous so I could be completely off base.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: Calvin6s on September 21, 2015, 09:48:27 AM
I live in SoCal, so every time (except maybe SanFranBay area) somebody says they paid $X for a house, my first thought is they bought a porta-potty.   :xbones
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: El Barto on January 13, 2017, 10:25:54 AM
Question for the guys (and possibly gals) good with this stuff:

Appears that most of the tax benefits associated with home ownership are based on the interest paid. If one were to buy a house interest free, say, from a family member, would there still be much of a benefit in taxation? Obviously there wouldn't be enough to negate the amount of interest one would pay via traditional mortgage, but there are other aspects I'm curious about.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: Stadler on January 13, 2017, 10:33:15 AM
Depends also if you live in the house, if it's your primary house, if there are any tenants, etc.

You get a property tax deduction as well, though it would be much less than the interest aspect.  Finally, depending on how you structure it, there might be a depreciation aspect as well. 

Talk to a tax guy, and if you're loathe to do that (I understand that, by the way) get a copy of TurboTax and play with it.  See what impacts what. 
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: El Barto on January 13, 2017, 12:59:24 PM
Depends also if you live in the house, if it's your primary house, if there are any tenants, etc.

You get a property tax deduction as well, though it would be much less than the interest aspect.  Finally, depending on how you structure it, there might be a depreciation aspect as well. 

Talk to a tax guy, and if you're loathe to do that (I understand that, by the way) get a copy of TurboTax and play with it.  See what impacts what.
That's a good idea. W2s are only a week away and I can play around with HRBlock to see some numbers. In the end the whole thing is going to be convoluted enough that I'll no doubt needs some professional help, though. Just trying to get some general ideas in advance.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: gmillerdrake on August 30, 2017, 08:48:40 AM
Didn't know where to put this but we just had a paver patio with outdoor fire pit built. One of the downsides of subdivision living is the houses are pretty much on top of each other....and with the model house our neighbor built his covered patio and ours are somewhat close together. So, our thought was to build a patio extension off our current covered patio....put a half wall up.....and on the other side of that half wall plant some landscape bushes/trees that will grow vertically that will break up the view a bit. So...we have the patio built....still need to get the landscaping going which I hope to do this fall.

Pics below will show the stages of construction.....


(http://i.imgur.com/6wN76OI.jpg)


(http://i.imgur.com/3rW8OLh.jpg)


(http://i.imgur.com/ilFJAiY.jpg)


(http://i.imgur.com/HjEatrU.jpg)


(http://i.imgur.com/2tluqHe.jpg)


(http://i.imgur.com/GJGiwqQ.jpg)


(http://i.imgur.com/ElN5kET.jpg)


(http://i.imgur.com/DBVhtDa.jpg)


(http://i.imgur.com/LOJgzXw.jpg)


Then I added lamps on Sunday:

(http://i.imgur.com/WXA9JL5.jpg)


I lucked out on the cost of the patio as one of my best friends Father in Law owns a Masonry company and he told me for the past couple years as I talked about this that when I decided to do it he'd hook me up. So I bought the materials and then just paid his guys cash....$30 hr and they nailed it for us. I drew up the design in CAD and they built it.


I'm hoping for some Labor Day sales on patio furniture. We're wanting to get more like a 'social' set....with a couple outdoor love seats and chairs and maybe small table. But I'm planning the inaugural fire for this Friday.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: cramx3 on August 30, 2017, 09:36:32 AM
That looks really nice and well done.  Love the fire pit.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: Stadler on August 30, 2017, 09:48:31 AM
Yeah, but hard to film a porno on that with the neighbor's deck eight feet away.  :)
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: gmillerdrake on August 30, 2017, 09:57:30 AM
That looks really nice and well done.  Love the fire pit.

 :tup   thanks. The fire pit is my favorite part....stocked up on wood from my Grandpa's property last weekend so I'm set for some fall bonfires.

Yeah, but hard to film a porno on that with the neighbor's deck eight feet away.  :)

How do you know he's not in the script?   :lol
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: Stadler on August 30, 2017, 10:08:23 AM
Yeah, but hard to film a porno on that with the neighbor's deck eight feet away.  :)

How do you know he's not in the script?   :lol

I've seen your neighbor.  :)
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: gmillerdrake on August 30, 2017, 10:14:50 AM
Yeah, but hard to film a porno on that with the neighbor's deck eight feet away.  :)

How do you know he's not in the script?   :lol

I've seen your neighbor.  :)

 :(
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: jingle.boy on August 30, 2017, 11:42:49 AM
Yeah, but hard to film a porno on that with the neighbor's deck eight feet away.  :)

How do you know he's not in the script?   :lol

I've seen your neighbor.  :)

Gary shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: Orbert on August 30, 2017, 04:32:49 PM
Is the neighbor's wife in the script?  That's how these things usually work.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: gabeh1018 on August 31, 2017, 11:06:13 PM
Does anyone else live in NJ and love the absurd property taxes and how little your money buys you? I purchased my first home back in April of 2012 in Central jersey. It had caught fire the year before and was purchased by    contractors who redid the entire thing. It sold for 259k. It was a 900 sq foot home and the property taxes were 6600 a year last time I checked. I have since moved to a different house with my wife, but you get the point.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: cramx3 on September 01, 2017, 07:06:16 AM
Does anyone else live in NJ and love the absurd property taxes and how little your money buys you? I purchased my first home back in April of 2012 in Central jersey. It had caught fire the year before and was purchased by    contractors who redid the entire thing. It sold for 259k. It was a 900 sq foot home and the property taxes were 6600 a year last time I checked. I have since moved to a different house with my wife, but you get the point.

Sounds like my house, 1000 sqft, 6600 in taxes, central jersey  :lol

Yea, we don't get much bang for buck with our taxes here, but I love the area and being close to NYC and not far from Philly.  I think that is where I find the value in location (lots of jobs and concerts), not what my tax money returns to me.  I also don't have kids so not like I'm finding value in my local school system (although I support it).
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: jingle.boy on September 01, 2017, 07:11:38 AM
Does anyone else live in NJ and love the absurd property taxes and how little your money buys you? I purchased my first home back in April of 2012 in Central jersey. It had caught fire the year before and was purchased by    contractors who redid the entire thing. It sold for 259k. It was a 900 sq foot home and the property taxes were 6600 a year last time I checked. I have since moved to a different house with my wife, but you get the point.

Sounds like my house, 1000 sqft, 6600 in taxes, central jersey  :lol

Yea, we don't get much bang for buck with our taxes here, but I love the area and being close to NYC and not far from Philly.  I think that is where I find the value in location (lots of jobs and concerts), not what my tax money returns to me.  I also don't have kids so not like I'm finding value in my local school system (although I support it).

So, you're mandatorily paying for something that you don't intend to ever use.  Imagine that! 

Not a dig at you specifically at all - it's a dig at how people can lose their shit over this philosophy for healthcare, but accept it when it comes to (the property tax contribution towards) education.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: Chino on September 01, 2017, 07:16:30 AM
Does anyone else live in NJ and love the absurd property taxes and how little your money buys you? I purchased my first home back in April of 2012 in Central jersey. It had caught fire the year before and was purchased by    contractors who redid the entire thing. It sold for 259k. It was a 900 sq foot home and the property taxes were 6600 a year last time I checked. I have since moved to a different house with my wife, but you get the point.

Sounds like my house, 1000 sqft, 6600 in taxes, central jersey  :lol

Yea, we don't get much bang for buck with our taxes here, but I love the area and being close to NYC and not far from Philly.  I think that is where I find the value in location (lots of jobs and concerts), not what my tax money returns to me.  I also don't have kids so not like I'm finding value in my local school system (although I support it).

So, you're mandatorily paying for something that you don't intend to ever use.  Imagine that! 

Not a dig at you specifically at all - it's a dig at how people can lose their shit over this philosophy for healthcare, but accept it when it comes to (the property tax contribution towards) education.

I paid $7600 in tax last year on my house. 1800 sqft and paid $143K for it.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: jasc15 on September 01, 2017, 07:18:10 AM
Does anyone else live in NJ and love the absurd property taxes and how little your money buys you? I purchased my first home back in April of 2012 in Central jersey. It had caught fire the year before and was purchased by    contractors who redid the entire thing. It sold for 259k. It was a 900 sq foot home and the property taxes were 6600 a year last time I checked. I have since moved to a different house with my wife, but you get the point.
I've come to accept it.  I am actually in contract to buy a house in Bergen county right now.  I could pay less tax elsewhere in the country, but there ain't no free lunch.*  This region doesn't experience boom and bust job markets like many other places, and the pay in my field of work is commensurate with the cost of living.  I could move 2 or 3 hours west into PA, get a bigger house for half the price and less than half the property taxes, but I can't earn nearly what I earn here with the job security I currently have.

*I actually briefly considered moving to another division of my company on the other side of the country a few years ago.  It is now scheduled to be shut down, and employees were offered relocation impossibly far away or simply to find another job.  This company is the only regional employer in my industry, and these folks are in a real tough spot.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: Stadler on September 01, 2017, 07:22:34 AM
Does anyone else live in NJ and love the absurd property taxes and how little your money buys you? I purchased my first home back in April of 2012 in Central jersey. It had caught fire the year before and was purchased by    contractors who redid the entire thing. It sold for 259k. It was a 900 sq foot home and the property taxes were 6600 a year last time I checked. I have since moved to a different house with my wife, but you get the point.

Sounds like my house, 1000 sqft, 6600 in taxes, central jersey  :lol

Yea, we don't get much bang for buck with our taxes here, but I love the area and being close to NYC and not far from Philly.  I think that is where I find the value in location (lots of jobs and concerts), not what my tax money returns to me.  I also don't have kids so not like I'm finding value in my local school system (although I support it).

So, you're mandatorily paying for something that you don't intend to ever use.  Imagine that! 

Not a dig at you specifically at all - it's a dig at how people can lose their shit over this philosophy for healthcare, but accept it when it comes to (the property tax contribution towards) education.

Not at all the same thing. 

When I pay for YOUR healthcare, and you smoke, drink diet soda (the Devil's Semen), and not bother to get annual checkups, it's money sent to the ether.     When I pay property taxes - which, by the way, I do - not only does not all of it go to "education", but even when it does, it goes to brick and mortar assets that I reap benefits from (indirectly) in other ways.  I am also funding salaries that contribute to the town in various ways, and I also increase - in some cases - the value of my town in terms of desireability and property value.

I live in Northern CT now, and the school system in my town BLOWS.    My son is out, my daughter is out, my other daughter now goes to private school in CT, and my youngest son is in a special program.  We're having him tested and the hope is we can get him out of there and into a special school.  Having said that, there is still value brought to the community for paying for that.   When I lived in Glastonbury, CT, - where the schools are outstanding (Top Ten in the state) - we got a noticeable bump in property values for same.  I grew up in a small(er) town in CT, and they are a top ten in the state school system; what was a farm community (my grandparents built their own house when my mom was a little girl) is now probably a stretch for me financially to live in.  But, also unlike healthcare, I can move a short distance, have all the amenities of my community, and NOT pay for a school system that I don't use, or that doesn't bring me value. 

Contrast with your vaunted healthcare, where people are paying more than ever for healthcare, are being penalized by even HIGHER taxes for not contributing, 80% of Americans want the current system repealed or revamped, and it led good, diligent Americans - who are not racist, who voted for Obama - to decide our best option was a media-whore businessman with no elected experience whatsoever.   

Not at all the same thing. 
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: Chino on September 01, 2017, 07:26:47 AM
What Stadler said. I might not ever go to the parks that my taxes pay to upkeep, but if they make families want to move to the town, I see their desire reflected in what they're willing to pay for my house.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: jingle.boy on September 01, 2017, 08:44:24 AM
True to form, you have a refute for anything I comment on - even when I'm being mostly facetious.  At some level, it is similar - A portion of property taxes is put towards the school systems.  If I don't have children, I'm contributing to something that benefits society, but I get no direct benefit from.  This is to some extent the argument I see against the fundamentals of Obamacare.

WHY CAN'T I HAVE A PROPERTY TAX PLAN THAT EXCLUDES WHAT I DON'T USE!?!?!  ESPECIALLY WHEN I LIVE IN A NEIGHBOURHOOD WHERE TRUANCY AND FAILURE RATES ARE SO HIGH!  CLEARLY NOT DOLLARS USED WISELY.

I'm not saying the education system doesn't GET the money, but (to use the healthcare arguments I see/hear) shouldn't the person that has 5 kids be paying more than the person who has zero kids?

As I said, I was being mostly facetious... this need not turn into our usual back and forth point/counter-point.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: Stadler on September 01, 2017, 10:08:46 AM
True to form, you have a refute for anything I comment on - even when I'm being mostly facetious.  At some level, it is similar - A portion of property taxes is put towards the school systems.  If I don't have children, I'm contributing to something that benefits society, but I get no direct benefit from.  This is to some extent the argument I see against the fundamentals of Obamacare.

WHY CAN'T I HAVE A PROPERTY TAX PLAN THAT EXCLUDES WHAT I DON'T USE!?!?!  ESPECIALLY WHEN I LIVE IN A NEIGHBOURHOOD WHERE TRUANCY AND FAILURE RATES ARE SO HIGH!  CLEARLY NOT DOLLARS USED WISELY.

I'm not saying the education system doesn't GET the money, but (to use the healthcare arguments I see/hear) shouldn't the person that has 5 kids be paying more than the person who has zero kids?

As I said, I was being mostly facetious... this need not turn into our usual back and forth point/counter-point.

Well, I'm allowed to comment, facetiousness or not. 
 
Second, I'm not really arguing with you per se.   But you have a factual error that is very common but that needs to be addressed:  you DO get a direct, tangible, monetary benefit from the property tax dollars you pay that go to education, regardless of whether you have children in that school system.  You do NOT get the same level of direct, tangible monetary benefit from the tax dollars that go to healthcare.  This isn't opinion, this isn't spin, this is documentable FACT.   (one example: https://www.biggerpockets.com/renewsblog/2011/04/06/school-districts-real-estate-prices/   "One of the most interesting takeaways from this research was the profound effect that a quality school district can have on the housing values in the surrounding community."  Second example: http://www.realtor.com/advice/buy/the-right-school-district-how-much-do-schools-affect-real-estate-prices/  "Half of the home-buying population is willing to pay more than their intended budget to get into the right school district, and more than half would give up other amenities.")
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: jingle.boy on September 01, 2017, 11:44:38 AM
Fair points all around Stadler.  Let me be a little more explicit then on the matter - with no kids in the system, people don't get a direct benefit by consuming the precise service the distribution of funds provides for.  Man I hope I've worded that explicitly enough. 

By the same token, people get a direct benefit of health insurance, whether they consume it or not.  By allowing for affordable healthcare, it's plausible that many people have friends/family/co-workers who can consume the service that is being paid for even if one doesn't actually consume it.

Look, my comment wasn't meant as an absolutely flawless and perfect comparison.  There are some similarities, and I was just poking a little fun at the fact that education contributions by property taxes are commonly accepted.  Imagine this was something just introduced today - a property tax increase/levy that went towards public education.  People without children in the system would lose their shit, and I'd wager everything I've ever owned that the would never buy into the argument that 'it will increase your property values'.

Enough of the digression though, this thread is supposed to be about the benefits, and pride, of home ownership.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: Stadler on September 01, 2017, 12:13:22 PM
Fair points all around Stadler.  Let me be a little more explicit then on the matter - with no kids in the system, people don't get a direct benefit by consuming the precise service the distribution of funds provides for.  Man I hope I've worded that explicitly enough. 

By the same token, people get a direct benefit of health insurance, whether they consume it or not.  By allowing for affordable healthcare, it's plausible that many people have friends/family/co-workers who can consume the service that is being paid for even if one doesn't actually consume it.

Look, my comment wasn't meant as an absolutely flawless and perfect comparison.  There are some similarities, and I was just poking a little fun at the fact that education contributions by property taxes are commonly accepted.  Imagine this was something just introduced today - a property tax increase/levy that went towards public education.  People without children in the system would lose their shit, and I'd wager everything I've ever owned that the would never buy into the argument that 'it will increase your property values'.

It came off as a snarky comment to those that have the temerity to call out healthcare for the masses.  As for the "people without children... " comment, maybe you'd win that wager, maybe not, but it would TOTALLY be based on those people not having the first clue about how the system they're complaining about works.   So on that level, I guess you're right, because most of the people commenting either way on healthcare (pro or con) don't have the first clue how it actually works. 

Quote
Enough of the digression though, this thread is supposed to be about the benefits, and pride, of home ownership.

I think it's directly relevant to the topic.   It IS a benefit of homeownership, seeing your investment grow.  Seeing value created.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: Cool Chris on September 01, 2017, 01:08:57 PM
Sounds like my house, 1000 sqft, 6600 in taxes, central jersey  :lol

Goddamn I thought the Seattle area had high property taxes. I am about 15 mi outside of that pit and my taxes are around $4,000 for my 1900 sq ft house. But we also have 10% sales tax, and no state income tax. Wonder how that swings the pendulum.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: Dellers on September 02, 2017, 01:42:26 AM
Now I feel pretty good living in Norway and in a municipality with no property taxes. Sounds like you guys pay up to 50% of the amount I pay down on my apartment each year just in taxes. Sure, we may have more VAT and such here, but I don't see that making up for that much in property taxes. I know Norway is known for being expensive, but depending on where you live the US is often (significantly) more expensive. It's also more expensive to go on holidays in the US than here, at least lately.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: kingshmegland on September 02, 2017, 08:40:04 AM
Coming home to this view of your yard.  This is a benefit for your soul.

(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/550x3500q90/923/CYV6z9.jpg) (http://imageshack.com/f/pnCYV6z9j)
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: gmillerdrake on September 02, 2017, 08:43:02 AM
3200 Sq. Ft.......$4600 taxes. After reading some of these past few posts I feel a bit better about the $4600. That's pretty high considering 'where' I live. It's a pretty rural county but the subdivisions parcel of land that we moved into is one of the higher taxed parcels around.

I just look at it as 'oh well'....it's not like I have the option of not paying them....I mean I guess I could not pay them but I don't feel like dealing with the consequences of that. it is what it is....
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: kingshmegland on September 02, 2017, 08:48:24 AM
I have .98 acres and my taxes are about $4200.00.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: ReaperKK on September 10, 2017, 04:27:27 PM
I haven't read the entire thread but we just built our house and got our property tax bill, we pay $2600 for .40 of an acre.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: Podaar on September 11, 2017, 08:22:00 AM
Gary,

Love the patio!

I spent a good portion of my summer covering my old cement patio with travertine tile.

Before:
(https://scontent.fsnc1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/20479984_10213923419628712_3802752291586899858_n.jpg?oh=b773c3435908e3bd824e9851e6f74699&oe=5A1ACC59)

After:
(https://scontent.fsnc1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/20621937_10213923419668713_2605180362660830355_n.jpg?oh=c90a5d0a2d15b4b79634c6abb6e606d1&oe=5A60E973)
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: cramx3 on September 11, 2017, 10:02:22 AM
That looks nice, I just got a big chiminea from a family friend giving it away that I need to find a spot for
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: gmillerdrake on September 11, 2017, 12:08:32 PM
Gregg....that is awesome!! The tile looks great and I especially like the half privacy/lattice/planter wall. Had thought of trying something similar on the one side of our patio but opted to go with planting some privacy bushes instead.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: ReaperKK on September 11, 2017, 07:37:55 PM
That's really awesome! I'm hoping we can start at patio next spring.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: Podaar on September 12, 2017, 08:20:20 AM
Gregg....that is awesome!! The tile looks great and I especially like the half privacy/lattice/planter wall. Had thought of trying something similar on the one side of our patio but opted to go with planting some privacy bushes instead.

I had the pergola built about six years ago and then I built the planter that same summer. If you ever decide to build one yourself, talk with me. During the intervening years, I learned quite a bit on what not to do. Before we started in on tiling the patio, I spent a few weekends fixing structural weakness in the planter box. It would have been a lot easier to build it right the first time if I'd known what was going to happen over the years.

Privacy bushes are a great idea but you have to be committed to maintaining them. I put up the lattice to grow wisteria over it because I'm a lazy bitch.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: gmillerdrake on September 12, 2017, 09:20:01 AM
Gregg....that is awesome!! The tile looks great and I especially like the half privacy/lattice/planter wall. Had thought of trying something similar on the one side of our patio but opted to go with planting some privacy bushes instead.

I had the pergola built about six years ago and then I built the planter that same summer. If you ever decide to build one yourself, talk with me. During the intervening years, I learned quite a bit on what not to do. Before we started in on tiling the patio, I spent a few weekends fixing structural weakness in the planter box. It would have been a lot easier to build it right the first time if I'd known what was going to happen over the years.

Privacy bushes are a great idea but you have to be committed to maintaining them. I put up the lattice to grow wisteria over it because I'm a lazy bitch.


One Idea I had that I abandoned fearing it may look gaughty was in lieu of the half wall separating my yard from my neighbors I'd use a wood pergula to do so. Was going to go with stamped concrete as well with this option....See these drawings I worked up:

Plan View:

(https://i.imgur.com/Qjq7E9F.png)

Elevation View:

(https://i.imgur.com/lKwSzI1.png)


But, materials alone for that were around $1500 and even though I have a good friend who is a Union Carpenter who said he and a laborer could build it for me with minimal $$ for labor....that'd still have been another $1000-1500. Ultimately I decided to go with the more traditional and 'safe' look of the half wall and plants.


Still need to mulch and put some finishing touches on landscaping but I got them planted

(https://i.imgur.com/T49Mb8G.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/OMWt2Ut.jpg)

And we picked up some end of season outdoor patio furniture as well....'regular' price $1100 which we ended up getting for $400.

(https://i.imgur.com/818qTb2.jpg)

So, I'll try to continue to grow the grass back out with seed....it's coming in good (this pic is a week old) but if it isn't looking good next spring I'll get a pallet of sod and call it even.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: Podaar on September 12, 2017, 12:02:10 PM
Looking great!! The evergreens are a nice choice since they're not likely to require much trimming.

I like your pergola design...I probably would have gone with that were I in your shoes. I like as much privacy as I can get away with so that when I'm reading the paper in the morning I can have my robe recklessly thrown open. Ventilation, you understand. Although, it does look like the pergola does quite close to your property line which could cause you difficulties later.

Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: jingle.boy on September 17, 2017, 08:44:36 AM
Late to say this...

Gregg....that is awesome!!

Gary... that patio is sweet.  Personally, I'd try and stick it out with soil/seed.  Sod can be a bitch to take, and if it doesn't, you're pooched for a real long time.  For us, the best time to lay it was in the late fall (at least that's the time here) ... when the over-night is really cool, and there's dew on the sod every single morning.  We did that when we dug up part of our backyard, and the sod took beautifully.  Otherwise, it's a bitch to try and keep it constantly moist.  Of course, it also depends on how the sun moves across your yard - our backyard is relatively shady in the fall.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: kingshmegland on September 17, 2017, 09:10:09 AM
Yeah I'm against sod. you're better off renting an aerator in this rolling it around the area seed and then continually make sure that you're keeping it watered and I'll grow in
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: Phoenix87x on September 17, 2017, 02:02:39 PM
I am currently looking for my first place.

Its just me, so at this point I do not not a strait up house. But what do you guys think about condo vs townhouse. Pros? Cons?
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: ReaperKK on September 17, 2017, 02:26:54 PM
If it was just me living alone (no animals or anything like that) I could see myself in a townhome. It'd save so much on the upkeep

There is something nice about having a house though. I remember living in my apartment and hearing all kinds of noises around me and now that I hear nothing but silence it'd be hard to go back.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: cramx3 on September 18, 2017, 01:48:45 PM
I am currently looking for my first place.

Its just me, so at this point I do not not a strait up house. But what do you guys think about condo vs townhouse. Pros? Cons?

You'll be paying an association fee which kind of sucks but has some benefits.  For one, you won't have to worry about the upkeep up the lawn and maybe get access to some shared facilities.  The negative is the rate is not negotiable, you'll be paying it monthly and you may be able to do everything they offer for you for cheaper on your own if you were able to.  For me, when I was looking between condos/townhouse/houses, the fees for a condo/townhouse is what really weighed negatively for me.  Some were up to 300 a month! No thanks.  However you'll have that for a condo or townhouse so one big difference between those two is how close do you like your neighbors?  A townhouse may come with a backyard/private garage and some more separation from your neighbors.
Title: Re: I bought a home
Post by: Phoenix87x on January 29, 2018, 06:02:00 AM
Well, at age 30 I have finally bought my own home. Its been quite a whirlwind of paper work and moving and this and that. But I'm almost fully moved in at this point and I couldn't be happier. It is soooo nice to have your own place. Its a one bedroom, one bath condo that I got for $90,000   I love it.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: gmillerdrake on January 29, 2018, 06:32:55 AM
Congrats! Thatís exciting.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: jingle.boy on January 29, 2018, 07:22:09 AM
Congrats! Thatís exciting.

+1.  Good on ya Phoenix.  How many square feet out of curiousity?
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: kaos2900 on January 29, 2018, 07:28:04 AM
We're getting ready to put an offer in on our next, and probably last, house. Interesting timing for this thread to get bumped.   :biggrin:
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: Phoenix87x on January 29, 2018, 07:53:20 AM
Congrats! Thatís exciting.

+1.  Good on ya Phoenix.  How many square feet out of curiousity?

I think its like 664. When I get some time, I'll post some pics
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: lordxizor on January 29, 2018, 07:53:24 AM
I've been getting new siding and got a new roof last fall due to a hail storm last summer. What a colossal pain in the ass. Insurance is covering the majority of the cost, but we're upgrading the siding and doing a few other things that aren't covered. We've had to unexpectedly replace two doors that had water damage that won't be covered by insurance. I have the cash to cover the cost, but it's just a pain. Sometimes I really miss renting. Just call up the landlord and he'll take care of everything. Home ownership definitely has it's advantages, but I'm really on the fence about whether it's worth it. Financially it's definitely not as clear cut as people make you thing with "throwing your money away every month renting".
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: cramx3 on January 29, 2018, 08:40:43 AM
There's definitely ups and downs to both owning and renting.  Sometimes I wish I was renting as well to just call the landlord for issues that I now have to deal with (aka spend money on).  But, I think about all the positives and so far for me, it's still been a clear winner to own.  But I also have no plans on leaving, I think if I had thoughts about moving again, I'd probably just stick to renting.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: Chino on January 29, 2018, 08:47:09 AM
My biggest gripe with home owning is the fall cleanup. It takes a solid 3 or 4 saturdays in the fall, and at least 2 more come spring.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: cramx3 on January 29, 2018, 08:51:40 AM
I'm guessing you have lots of trees?  I have not done a fall clean up ever since living in my house.  Just two trees (one small, one larger) on my property and it seems I never have have a leaf problem.  Some overgrown shrouds I can trim for an afternoon in the spring and I pay someone to mow/edge my lawn.  I used to do that myself, but after having my mower and trimmer both break multiple times, I just gave up and took the easy route.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: Chino on January 29, 2018, 08:55:31 AM
I'm guessing you have lots of trees?  I have not done a fall clean up ever since living in my house.  Just two trees (one small, one larger) on my property and it seems I never have have a leaf problem.  Some overgrown shrouds I can trim for an afternoon in the spring and I pay someone to mow/edge my lawn.  I used to do that myself, but after having my mower and trimmer both break multiple times, I just gave up and took the easy route.

I live on a small lot (.4 acres) and I have 9 oak trees on my property that are all 80+ years old. The amount of leaves they dump is truly rage inducing. This year I had my backpack leaf blower in one had and a handheld blower in the other. The biggest problem is that they hold onto their leaves for a really long time. It always snows before all the leaves fall off, and then I have to wait until spring to finish cleaning up.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: jingle.boy on January 29, 2018, 09:01:46 AM
I've been getting new siding and got a new roof last fall due to a hail storm last summer. What a colossal pain in the ass. Insurance is covering the majority of the cost, but we're upgrading the siding and doing a few other things that aren't covered. We've had to unexpectedly replace two doors that had water damage that won't be covered by insurance. I have the cash to cover the cost, but it's just a pain. Sometimes I really miss renting. Just call up the landlord and he'll take care of everything. Home ownership definitely has it's advantages, but I'm really on the fence about whether it's worth it. Financially it's definitely not as clear cut as people make you thing with "throwing your money away every month renting".

Really surprised to hear this - especially the financial thing.  Given the real estate market, owning vs renting is a no-brainer to me... especially since I now own my home.  No monthly payment, and I have a 6 figure asset after 20 years of paying.  If I had been renting, I'd have no asset and still be making monthly payments.  Considering my house has gone up in value by about 2.5x, it's a no-brainer.  As a long-term investment, there isn't much more of a sure thing than property (by-and-large)

@ Chino... I hear ya.  I don't have a lot now, but as a kid/teenager I grew up in a town called Oakville - and we backed on to a ravine.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: Chino on January 29, 2018, 09:05:58 AM
I've been getting new siding and got a new roof last fall due to a hail storm last summer. What a colossal pain in the ass. Insurance is covering the majority of the cost, but we're upgrading the siding and doing a few other things that aren't covered. We've had to unexpectedly replace two doors that had water damage that won't be covered by insurance. I have the cash to cover the cost, but it's just a pain. Sometimes I really miss renting. Just call up the landlord and he'll take care of everything. Home ownership definitely has it's advantages, but I'm really on the fence about whether it's worth it. Financially it's definitely not as clear cut as people make you thing with "throwing your money away every month renting".

Really surprised to hear this - especially the financial thing.  Given the real estate market, owning vs renting is a no-brainer to me... especially since I now own my home.  No monthly payment, and I have a 6 figure asset after 20 years of paying.  If I had been renting, I'd have no asset and still be making monthly payments.  Considering my house has gone up in value by about 2.5x, it's a no-brainer.  As a long-term investment, there isn't much more of a sure thing than property (by-and-large)

@ Chino... I hear ya.  I don't have a lot now, but as a kid/teenager I grew up in a town called Oakville - and we backed on to a ravine.

Oakville CT?
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: cramx3 on January 29, 2018, 09:10:33 AM
Yea, that does sound miserable (cleaning up the leafs that is).

And damn Jingle, must be nice to free yourself from the mortgage. 

According to zillow, my house is worth 20% more than what I paid for it over the course of 4.5 years living there.  I only have a few investments, but my house is definitely one of them that really works well for me and my lifestyle.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: jingle.boy on January 29, 2018, 09:22:14 AM
Oakville CT?

No... never lived in the US.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: Chino on January 29, 2018, 09:22:41 AM
Yea, that does sound miserable (cleaning up the leafs that is).

And damn Jingle, must be nice to free yourself from the mortgage. 

According to zillow, my house is worth 20% more than what I paid for it over the course of 4.5 years living there.  I only have a few investments, but my house is definitely one of them that really works well for me and my lifestyle.

My house was re-appraised by the city and is worth 15%more than it was this time last year. I'm kind of pissed about it because that's going to raise my taxes. I would challenge it, but then they're going to have to come into my house and do a more formal inspection. There are things in my house that can not be seen by any government employee.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: cramx3 on January 29, 2018, 09:27:58 AM
I was re-appraised at 10% more about 2 years ago (when I refinanced to get my ex off the deed) which did raise my taxes, but not a whole lot.  I have that same mentality though, I don't want them snooping around because I made my basement livable since then which would apparently raise my taxes, also other things...
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: Stadler on January 29, 2018, 09:34:19 AM
Yea, that does sound miserable (cleaning up the leafs that is).

And damn Jingle, must be nice to free yourself from the mortgage. 

According to zillow, my house is worth 20% more than what I paid for it over the course of 4.5 years living there.  I only have a few investments, but my house is definitely one of them that really works well for me and my lifestyle.

My house was re-appraised by the city and is worth 15%more than it was this time last year. I'm kind of pissed about it because that's going to raise my taxes. I would challenge it, but then they're going to have to come into my house and do a more formal inspection. There are things in my house that can not be seen by any government employee.

"Lettuce".  Yes.  :)
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: jingle.boy on January 29, 2018, 09:35:30 AM
Yea, that does sound miserable (cleaning up the leafs that is).

And damn Jingle, must be nice to free yourself from the mortgage. 

According to zillow, my house is worth 20% more than what I paid for it over the course of 4.5 years living there.  I only have a few investments, but my house is definitely one of them that really works well for me and my lifestyle.

My house was re-appraised by the city and is worth 15%more than it was this time last year. I'm kind of pissed about it because that's going to raise my taxes. I would challenge it, but then they're going to have to come into my house and do a more formal inspection. There are things in my house that can not be seen by any government employee.

Ruffage?

Edit... Ninja'd.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: lordxizor on January 29, 2018, 09:58:36 AM
Really surprised to hear this - especially the financial thing.  Given the real estate market, owning vs renting is a no-brainer to me... especially since I now own my home.  No monthly payment, and I have a 6 figure asset after 20 years of paying.  If I had been renting, I'd have no asset and still be making monthly payments.  Considering my house has gone up in value by about 2.5x, it's a no-brainer.  As a long-term investment, there isn't much more of a sure thing than property (by-and-large)
Historically, real estate values pretty much match inflation, so while things are good now, they won't be forever. I'm paying 3.375% interest on a home that I can expect to gain about 3% a year on average in value over the next 30 years. Add in the maintenance costs, taxes, insurance, upgrades, etc, and it's easy to see why homes are not as great an investment as people want you to think they are.

On my ~$250k home, I will pay about $600k in mortgage, taxes, insurance, etc (not including annual increases in taxes and insurance which of course will happen). I will also put in about 1% of the value of the home annually for maintenance, repairs, upgrades, etc. every year on average, so I will spend another $120,000 on that over 30 years (which I think is probably low given the cost of a new roof or siding). So now I've paid at least $720k for a house that I can expect to be worth about $600k in 30 years if I get average property value increases. By any other investment standards, I've lost money on my investment. But I need a place to live, and ending up with $600k in value in my home isn't too shabby either.

Which isn't to say it's not the right decision for a lot of other reasons. You'll probably come out ahead buying over renting and investing the difference in the stock market (which hardly anyone would do anyway) unless rentals are really cheap in your area or you plan on moving a lot. But I'm hesitant to say a home is a good investment. It's necessary to have a place to live and buying can be the better option, but it's not for everyone.

My math or some of the assumptions may be off by a bit, but the point remains. You'll likely get less out of your house than you put in it over the long term.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: cramx3 on January 29, 2018, 10:04:22 AM
unless rentals are really cheap in your area or you plan on moving a lot

This pretty much nails it for me.  Renting near me is not cheap at all, you will pay more and get less than my house.  I know some paying the same rent per month (~2k) which is the cost of my mortage (interest and insurance included) and they get a small room in a crappy area, where as I have a house (my house is small, so not much more room than an apartment) with a backyard driveway and privacy.  It's kind of a no brainer in my area if you plan on sticking around for at least 5 years.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: Chino on January 29, 2018, 10:18:02 AM
Really surprised to hear this - especially the financial thing.  Given the real estate market, owning vs renting is a no-brainer to me... especially since I now own my home.  No monthly payment, and I have a 6 figure asset after 20 years of paying.  If I had been renting, I'd have no asset and still be making monthly payments.  Considering my house has gone up in value by about 2.5x, it's a no-brainer.  As a long-term investment, there isn't much more of a sure thing than property (by-and-large)
Historically, real estate values pretty much match inflation, so while things are good now, they won't be forever. I'm paying 3.375% interest on a home that I can expect to gain about 3% a year on average in value over the next 30 years. Add in the maintenance costs, taxes, insurance, upgrades, etc, and it's easy to see why homes are not as great an investment as people want you to think they are.

On my ~$250k home, I will pay about $600k in mortgage, taxes, insurance, etc (not including annual increases in taxes and insurance which of course will happen). I will also put in about 1% of the value of the home annually for maintenance, repairs, upgrades, etc. every year on average, so I will spend another $120,000 on that over 30 years (which I think is probably low given the cost of a new roof or siding). So now I've paid at least $720k for a house that I can expect to be worth about $600k in 30 years if I get average property value increases. By any other investment standards, I've lost money on my investment. But I need a place to live, and ending up with $600k in value in my home isn't too shabby either.

Which isn't to say it's not the right decision for a lot of other reasons. You'll probably come out ahead buying over renting and investing the difference in the stock market (which hardly anyone would do anyway) unless rentals are really cheap in your area or you plan on moving a lot. But I'm hesitant to say a home is a good investment. It's necessary to have a place to live and buying can be the better option, but it's not for everyone.

My math or some of the assumptions may be off by a bit, but the point remains. You'll likely get less out of your house than you put in it over the long term.

The biggest benefit to having your own home vs renting is your ability to take out a home equity line of credit. My father did that for mine and my sister's college education. We paid him monthly as we would a bank, but we were only paying 3.25% interest on his money vs whatever the rate on the student loans were (I think it was around 7%). 
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: Stadler on January 29, 2018, 10:30:54 AM
Really surprised to hear this - especially the financial thing.  Given the real estate market, owning vs renting is a no-brainer to me... especially since I now own my home.  No monthly payment, and I have a 6 figure asset after 20 years of paying.  If I had been renting, I'd have no asset and still be making monthly payments.  Considering my house has gone up in value by about 2.5x, it's a no-brainer.  As a long-term investment, there isn't much more of a sure thing than property (by-and-large)
Historically, real estate values pretty much match inflation, so while things are good now, they won't be forever. I'm paying 3.375% interest on a home that I can expect to gain about 3% a year on average in value over the next 30 years. Add in the maintenance costs, taxes, insurance, upgrades, etc, and it's easy to see why homes are not as great an investment as people want you to think they are.

On my ~$250k home, I will pay about $600k in mortgage, taxes, insurance, etc (not including annual increases in taxes and insurance which of course will happen). I will also put in about 1% of the value of the home annually for maintenance, repairs, upgrades, etc. every year on average, so I will spend another $120,000 on that over 30 years (which I think is probably low given the cost of a new roof or siding). So now I've paid at least $720k for a house that I can expect to be worth about $600k in 30 years if I get average property value increases. By any other investment standards, I've lost money on my investment. But I need a place to live, and ending up with $600k in value in my home isn't too shabby either.

Which isn't to say it's not the right decision for a lot of other reasons. You'll probably come out ahead buying over renting and investing the difference in the stock market (which hardly anyone would do anyway) unless rentals are really cheap in your area or you plan on moving a lot. But I'm hesitant to say a home is a good investment. It's necessary to have a place to live and buying can be the better option, but it's not for everyone.

My math or some of the assumptions may be off by a bit, but the point remains. You'll likely get less out of your house than you put in it over the long term.

You've ignored several plusses, though.  You didn't mention the tax write-off for interest, taxes and insurance.  You didn't mention the value created by having the loan (in the form of a higher credit score - all things being equal) that generally gets you better interest rates elsewhere.   You are also playing a little fast and loose with the time value of money; I think you'd be surprised at how that evens out the investment over time.

I think these discussions also under sell the incremental "over-payment" that most leases have;  I own two houses, and the second was a rental for which I charged $2000 a month, for a house for which I paid about $1600 a month in mortgage.   Fine for me, but from the perspective of the renter, he/they were paying a 25% premium per square foot for their living space.   I can't look you in the eye and say I spent the same level of diligence procuring services that were passed on to the tenant as I did (or do) for services that I absorb (for example, at my own home).   I shovel my own snow, hell or high water, because I'm healthy and able and proud.   I pay a guy to plow the driveway at the rental, at the expense of the tenant.   
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: lordxizor on January 29, 2018, 10:43:15 AM
Yeah, I wasn't intending to catch every plus or minus or trying to be tremendously accurate with the math. And the time value of money is something that seems like an accounting trick to me, but I get it's valuable if you know the details of it. Just trying to point out that buying isn't the slam dunk investment we're frequently lead to believe it is.

And the tax write-off is frequently overblown since really it's only the interest we pay above the standard deduction that saves us any money, which for me is actually nothing since my interest is below the standard deduction. But it is a nice perk if you get above it.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: jingle.boy on January 29, 2018, 10:57:48 AM
I don't know anywhere or any situation where renting would be less expensive (monthly) than buying.  SOMEONE owns the house/property, and except in very rare circumstances, isn't in the renting game to lose money.  Monthly rent incorporates mortgage, insurance, property taxes, and variable expenses on the behalf of the landlord + income for the landlord.  Other than situations where the landlord has already paid off the mortgage, I can't see any situation where rent would be cheaper than owning.  Apartments aside, but it's not an apples-to-apples comparison.

The real rub in home ownership is coming up with the down-payment.  If banks were willing to lend 100% of the purchase price, why would anyone rent?
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: lordxizor on January 29, 2018, 11:09:45 AM
The fees you pay up front when you buy and what you pay the realtor when you sell will quickly eat up any gains if you're living in the house for less than 5 years. So that's one reason. There are places in the country where it's difficult to sell a home, so that would be another reason if you don't want to be tied down.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: cramx3 on January 29, 2018, 11:11:09 AM
The real rub in home ownership is coming up with the down-payment.  If banks were willing to lend 100% of the purchase price, why would anyone rent?

Yea, and that's what FHA loans are for if you haven't saved up the amount yet can show you have the income to make the monthly payments.  I had to do this route after I refinanced because I had to buy out my ex and therefore didn't have any cash to put into the refinance at the time (I practically emptied my bank account during this break up).  The FHA loan came at a cost of monthly mortgage insurance, but even that added it's still cheaper than a rental.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: Chino on January 29, 2018, 11:12:42 AM
The real rub in home ownership is coming up with the down-payment.  If banks were willing to lend 100% of the purchase price, why would anyone rent?

Yea, and that's what FHA loans are for if you haven't saved up the amount yet can show you have the income to make the monthly payments.  I had to do this route after I refinanced because I had to buy out my ex and therefore didn't have any cash to put into the refinance at the time (I practically emptied my bank account during this break up).  The FHA loan came at a cost of monthly mortgage insurance, but even that added it's still cheaper than a rental.

I have to pay $157 a month in mortgage insurance (I only put 3.5% down on the house). Sucks.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: lordxizor on January 29, 2018, 11:15:38 AM
We pay PMI too and it does suck. We made a calculated decision to buy 3 years ago rather than wait until we had 20 percent saved. Given that interest rates have gone up and home values have gone up a lot in that time it looks right now like we made the right decision. But I still hate paying that PMI.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: gmillerdrake on January 29, 2018, 11:25:50 AM
We bought our PMI out for $4800 when we first financed. Not a good idea if you're planning to move within 5-7 years but we knew we'd be here for some time so it was worth it. We had some extra savings and took a calculated risk. 'Saved' us $140 a month on our mortgage bill.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: lordxizor on January 29, 2018, 11:27:17 AM
We bought our PMI out for $4800 when we first financed. Not a good idea if you're planning to move within 5-7 years but we knew we'd be here for some time so it was worth it. We had some extra savings and took a calculated risk. 'Saved' us $140 a month on our mortgage bill.
They never mentioned that as an option when we bought. I would have considered it.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: Chino on January 29, 2018, 11:36:02 AM
We bought our PMI out for $4800 when we first financed. Not a good idea if you're planning to move within 5-7 years but we knew we'd be here for some time so it was worth it. We had some extra savings and took a calculated risk. 'Saved' us $140 a month on our mortgage bill.

Why would it have been a bad idea if you were to move within 5-7 years ?
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: cramx3 on January 29, 2018, 11:42:56 AM
Closing costs and PMI costs add up to eat any value you might have earned I guess, maybe even eats into it.  I was told not to do an FHA loan if you plan on moving in 5 years.  I live closer to the house I grew up in than anyone else in my family, staying here for the long term is an easy decision for me.  I absolutely hate the moving process too, I could honestly see myself living in my small house till I die.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: jingle.boy on January 29, 2018, 11:50:59 AM
Ok guys... help this Canuck(lehead).  What is PMI and FHA?
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: Chino on January 29, 2018, 11:53:27 AM
Closing costs and PMI costs add up to eat any value you might have earned I guess, maybe even eats into it.  I was told not to do an FHA loan if you plan on moving in 5 years.  I live closer to the house I grew up in than anyone else in my family, staying here for the long term is an easy decision for me.  I absolutely hate the moving process too, I could honestly see myself living in my small house till I die.

I have no problem with a small house, at all. That might change when kids enter the mix. The things I do care about though are the size of my yard (It's been a dream of mine to have a private RC track) and a basement with enough open space to have a nice woodshop. Minus the lot I'm on, I think my house is a perfect size. 1800 square feet with 2 full baths, a walk in attic, and a basement that's divided up into 4 different rooms (1 rec, 1 laundry, 2 storage). It's got a screened/glassed in porch and a kitchen that's full of high end appliances with gas and a range that vents outside (came with the house). I can't ask for much else. If I could pick up my house and dump it on another plot of land, I'd do it in a heartbeat.

That's with V living with me though. If it was just me, I'd be cool with like 1000 square feet.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: kingshmegland on January 29, 2018, 11:56:38 AM
PMI is a penalty you pay for not having a % as a down payment when buying a house.  I put down $11,000 when I bought my house, I needed 20% to not get charged the PMI which was $20,000 so i had to pay this tax.  It's bullshit that they get to do this but they do.  My PMI is up in 6 months and I will have an extra $81.00 a month in out pockets.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: Grappler on January 29, 2018, 12:03:44 PM
Ok guys... help this Canuck(lehead).  What is PMI and FHA?

Like King said - it's an insurance policy that the bank takes out if you don't put down a high enough percentage when you buy a house.  Should you fail to repay the loan (foreclose), the bank is paid off.  The premium for the insurance is passed off onto the home buyer.  So you're paying a monthly premium for insurance that does not pay out to you at all.  It's total bullshit.

I paid PMI mine for five years, then refinanced once we paid down our principal enough and built up some equity.  We received a lower interest rate and the bank eliminated the $91 PMI premium.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: cramx3 on January 29, 2018, 12:05:00 PM
PMI is a penalty you pay for not having a % as a down payment when buying a house.  I put down $11,000 when I bought my house, I needed 20% to not get charged the PMI which was $20,000 so i had to pay this tax.  It's bullshit that they get to do this but they do.  My PMI is up in 6 months and I will have an extra $81.00 a month in out pockets.

I'm not sure I agree with you on the bullshit part of this.  The PMI is not a tax, it's insurance from the lender that we pay so they feel comfortable giving a loan of money that we, at that point, showed we are not able to pay right then.  I think it's a fair way to get people to buy houses who otherwise would not have been able to.  LIke you said, it goes away once you get to 20%.  I'd be pissed if they kept it throughout the life of the loan.  I got another couple years before I reach that point, then $150 off my tab each month.

And Chino, I hear ya about the family part.   As a single guy (my brother lives with me) I have no issue with the small house that requires small maintenance.  I think I could only have one kid in this house before I'd want to move (its only 2 bedroom and 1.5 bath).  I just think it's more like I have zero kids than I have 2 kids hence why I can realistically see myself in the same spot for the remainder of my life.  I do have nice space in my basement though.  Honestly have put serious thought into building my laundry room into a studio for gaming and live streaming (aka going the full green screen and lighting route).  It's nice to have these options.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: Chino on January 29, 2018, 12:07:37 PM
PMI is a penalty you pay for not having a % as a down payment when buying a house.  I put down $11,000 when I bought my house, I needed 20% to not get charged the PMI which was $20,000 so i had to pay this tax.  It's bullshit that they get to do this but they do.  My PMI is up in 6 months and I will have an extra $81.00 a month in out pockets.

I'm not sure I agree with you on the bullshit part of this.  The PMI is not a tax, it's insurance from the lender that we pay so they feel comfortable giving a loan of money that we, at that point, showed we are not able to pay right then.  I think it's a fair way to get people to buy houses who otherwise would not have been able to.  LIke you said, it goes away once you get to 20%.  I'd be pissed if they kept it throughout the life of the loan.  I got another couple years before I reach that point, then $150 off my tab each month.

And Chino, I hear ya about the family part.   As a single guy (my brother lives with me) I have no issue with the small house that requires small maintenance.  I think I could only have one kid in this house before I'd want to move (its only 2 bedroom and 1.5 bath).  I just think it's more like I have zero kids than I have 2 kids hence why I can realistically see myself in the same spot for the remainder of my life. I do have nice space in my basement though.  Honestly have put serious thought into building my laundry room into a studio for gaming and live streaming (aka going the full green screen and lighting route).  It's nice to have these options.

That to me is one of the main perks in buying a house vs renting. Want to build a custom studio in your house? Go for it. Want to grow a shitload of lettuce? Have at it. Want to put 100 holes in the walls? Knock yourself out.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: Stadler on January 29, 2018, 12:12:18 PM
We bought our PMI out for $4800 when we first financed. Not a good idea if you're planning to move within 5-7 years but we knew we'd be here for some time so it was worth it. We had some extra savings and took a calculated risk. 'Saved' us $140 a month on our mortgage bill.

Why would it have been a bad idea if you were to move within 5-7 years ?

That cash - that $4800 - operates essentially as an additional deposit at that point, whereas the PMI is for all intents and purposes "amortized" across the life of the loan (with FHA, it does NOT drop off automatically when the loan to value ration exceeds 80%, like with other loans).   
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: Stadler on January 29, 2018, 12:14:59 PM
PMI is a penalty you pay for not having a % as a down payment when buying a house.  I put down $11,000 when I bought my house, I needed 20% to not get charged the PMI which was $20,000 so i had to pay this tax.  It's bullshit that they get to do this but they do.  My PMI is up in 6 months and I will have an extra $81.00 a month in out pockets.

I'm not sure I agree with you on the bullshit part of this.  The PMI is not a tax, it's insurance from the lender that we pay so they feel comfortable giving a loan of money that we, at that point, showed we are not able to pay right then.  I think it's a fair way to get people to buy houses who otherwise would not have been able to.  LIke you said, it goes away once you get to 20%.  I'd be pissed if they kept it throughout the life of the loan.  I got another couple years before I reach that point, then $150 off my tab each month.

And Chino, I hear ya about the family part.   As a single guy (my brother lives with me) I have no issue with the small house that requires small maintenance.  I think I could only have one kid in this house before I'd want to move (its only 2 bedroom and 1.5 bath).  I just think it's more like I have zero kids than I have 2 kids hence why I can realistically see myself in the same spot for the remainder of my life. I do have nice space in my basement though.  Honestly have put serious thought into building my laundry room into a studio for gaming and live streaming (aka going the full green screen and lighting route).  It's nice to have these options.

That to me is one of the main perks in buying a house vs renting. Want to build a custom studio in your house? Go for it. Want to grow a shitload of lettuce? Have at it. Want to put 100 holes in the walls? Knock yourself out.

I've lived in rentals where I couldn't even paint the walls if I wanted to.   Fuck that.  I run wires (surround sound), I paint, I've done all kinds of shit in all the houses I've lived in.   
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: Stadler on January 29, 2018, 12:18:57 PM
Ok guys... help this Canuck(lehead).  What is PMI and FHA?

PMI is "private mortgage insurance" and like Cram said, it's not a penalty (though it has the perception of penalizing those that can't put down more than 20% in a deposit), but an insurance policy to protect the lender from foreclosure when the loan value is closer to the home value than 20%.   

FHA is the Federal Housing Authority, technically, but in the context of a "FHA loan" it's a loan that is backed, in part, by the FHA, so the lender assumes less risk and therefore can (presumably) give a better deal to the borrower.   It's basically a vehicle to get more people into homes they own.  I have an FHA loan, actually, and do pay PMI.   I will at some point refinance, but the numbers don't quite work for me at this point.   
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: jingle.boy on January 29, 2018, 12:24:45 PM
I figured that's what PMI was, but just wanted to be sure.  We have the same up here, from the gov't run CMHC (Canada Mortgage and Housing Corp).  I'm sure they do other shit, but no one seems to really know or care what.  Basically the same rules.  It's been so long since I had to pay for that, I forget if it was embedded in to the mortgage payment or not.

FHA.. pretty sure we have no such equivalent as it relates to loans/mortgages.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: lordxizor on January 29, 2018, 12:26:03 PM
I'm getting pretty close to 20% equity and would love to refinance to get rid of the PMI, but unfortunately interest rates have gone up enough that I'm not sure it will ever be worth it to refinance since the increased interest will offset the PMI savings. I'll look into it more in a year or so when I for sure have 20% equity. Interest rates were so damn low a few years ago that I may be stuck with PMI for quite a while.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: Chino on January 29, 2018, 12:28:20 PM
I'm getting pretty close to 20% equity and would love to refinance to get rid of the PMI, but unfortunately interest rates have gone up enough that I'm not sure it will ever be worth it to refinance since the increased interest will offset the PMI savings. I'll look into it more in a year or so when I for sure have 20% equity. Interest rates were so damn low a few years ago that I may be stuck with PMI for quite a while.

This is my fear as well. I managed to get a 3.5% interest rate. Who knows when they'll be that low again.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: jingle.boy on January 29, 2018, 12:35:11 PM
This is my fear as well. I managed to get a 3.5% interest rate. Who knows when they'll be that low again.

After the next global financial meltdown?
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: gmillerdrake on January 29, 2018, 12:37:39 PM
We bought our PMI out for $4800 when we first financed. Not a good idea if you're planning to move within 5-7 years but we knew we'd be here for some time so it was worth it. We had some extra savings and took a calculated risk. 'Saved' us $140 a month on our mortgage bill.

Why would it have been a bad idea if you were to move within 5-7 years ?

Typically (depending on your payment) it takes 5-7 years to reach that 20% equity in your home when you can then cancel PMI. It's usually when you get to that 80% of the original appraised value when you don't need to pay PMI. 

We chose to pay that off up front banking on the fact we wouldn't move in that time frame you typically pay it down. If we do (we've been there 4 years now) we basically would have been out that money by moving/getting a new loan. It made sense for us because we weren't/aren't planning to move AND we were fortunate enough to have the $$ to pay it off.



Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: Stadler on January 29, 2018, 12:38:53 PM
I'm getting pretty close to 20% equity and would love to refinance to get rid of the PMI, but unfortunately interest rates have gone up enough that I'm not sure it will ever be worth it to refinance since the increased interest will offset the PMI savings. I'll look into it more in a year or so when I for sure have 20% equity. Interest rates were so damn low a few years ago that I may be stuck with PMI for quite a while.

This is my fear as well. I managed to get a 3.5% interest rate. Who knows when they'll be that low again.

And you can write off both interest and PMI, so there's no benefit to be had there.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: kingshmegland on January 29, 2018, 12:47:51 PM
PMI is a penalty you pay for not having a % as a down payment when buying a house.  I put down $11,000 when I bought my house, I needed 20% to not get charged the PMI which was $20,000 so i had to pay this tax.  It's bullshit that they get to do this but they do.  My PMI is up in 6 months and I will have an extra $81.00 a month in out pockets.

I'm not sure I agree with you on the bullshit part of this.  The PMI is not a tax, it's insurance from the lender that we pay so they feel comfortable giving a loan of money that we, at that point, showed we are not able to pay right then.  I think it's a fair way to get people to buy houses who otherwise would not have been able to.  LIke you said, it goes away once you get to 20%.  I'd be pissed if they kept it throughout the life of the loan.  I got another couple years before I reach that point, then $150 off my tab each month.

And Chino, I hear ya about the family part.   As a single guy (my brother lives with me) I have no issue with the small house that requires small maintenance.  I think I could only have one kid in this house before I'd want to move (its only 2 bedroom and 1.5 bath).  I just think it's more like I have zero kids than I have 2 kids hence why I can realistically see myself in the same spot for the remainder of my life.  I do have nice space in my basement though.  Honestly have put serious thought into building my laundry room into a studio for gaming and live streaming (aka going the full green screen and lighting route).  It's nice to have these options.

Tell me how many people have 20% to get a house for 1st time buyers?  It's another revenue stream for banks to make more money.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: gmillerdrake on January 29, 2018, 12:51:04 PM
Tell me how many people have 20% to get a house for 1st time buyers?  It's another revenue stream for banks to make more money.

I agree. Seems a bit steep and it's just another way for big money to hammer us. I get they need 'some' protection.....that protection should be them not lending the $$ or just charge the higher risk loans a higher interest rate. Nailing us to the tune of $100-$180 a month extra just because they can is BS.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: cramx3 on January 29, 2018, 12:58:22 PM
PMI is a penalty you pay for not having a % as a down payment when buying a house.  I put down $11,000 when I bought my house, I needed 20% to not get charged the PMI which was $20,000 so i had to pay this tax.  It's bullshit that they get to do this but they do.  My PMI is up in 6 months and I will have an extra $81.00 a month in out pockets.

I'm not sure I agree with you on the bullshit part of this.  The PMI is not a tax, it's insurance from the lender that we pay so they feel comfortable giving a loan of money that we, at that point, showed we are not able to pay right then.  I think it's a fair way to get people to buy houses who otherwise would not have been able to.  LIke you said, it goes away once you get to 20%.  I'd be pissed if they kept it throughout the life of the loan.  I got another couple years before I reach that point, then $150 off my tab each month.

And Chino, I hear ya about the family part.   As a single guy (my brother lives with me) I have no issue with the small house that requires small maintenance.  I think I could only have one kid in this house before I'd want to move (its only 2 bedroom and 1.5 bath).  I just think it's more like I have zero kids than I have 2 kids hence why I can realistically see myself in the same spot for the remainder of my life.  I do have nice space in my basement though.  Honestly have put serious thought into building my laundry room into a studio for gaming and live streaming (aka going the full green screen and lighting route).  It's nice to have these options.

Tell me how many people have 20% to get a house for 1st time buyers?  It's another revenue stream for banks to make more money.

Well, also tell me, how many people who don't put down 20% foreclose and leave it to the bank?  I think it goes both ways here.  The banks take a risk on me, and I pay for it.  I am not trying to defend the banks (shit, I am paying them!) but I am just trying to look at it in a fair way.   I most certainly wouldn't of had a house if it weren't for this.  I would have been put into an apartment where I would struggle to save up that 20% and maybe could buy a house when I am 40.  Since it seems quite a few of us had/have FHA loans, I think we all benefitted from this program.  But also, luckily for this, I am now (slowly) building that home equity and next time I won't have to go the FHA route.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: axeman90210 on January 29, 2018, 12:59:47 PM
Some of you guys are making me jealous with the cost of buying where you live. I'll probably be living at home for another two years while I save up for a down payment on a condo. There's a new condo unit under construction that I walk by every day, and while it's true this is going to be something of a luxury building, the banner on the site advertises that studio condos will start at 600K. Even an older 1 bedroom condo is going for at least 350K.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: Cool Chris on January 29, 2018, 01:09:59 PM
Isn't a higher portion of "higher risk loans" going to be attached to minority borrowers, and this charging them a higher rate would be "racist?"
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: cramx3 on January 29, 2018, 01:30:38 PM
Equal housing lenders!  That term is everywhere when doing the paperwork.

Some of you guys are making me jealous with the cost of buying where you live. I'll probably be living at home for another two years while I save up for a down payment on a condo. There's a new condo unit under construction that I walk by every day, and while it's true this is going to be something of a luxury building, the banner on the site advertises that studio condos will start at 600K. Even an older 1 bedroom condo is going for at least 350K.

Well, you just need to get away from the city.  The burbs are where it's at.  The cost of living near the city is ridiculous if you ask me and I certainly don't make the kind of money to afford it either.  But I grew up here, I love it here, and I understand for some people, it's not even an option to move here just because of the city mentality.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: kingshmegland on January 29, 2018, 01:36:14 PM
PMI is a penalty you pay for not having a % as a down payment when buying a house.  I put down $11,000 when I bought my house, I needed 20% to not get charged the PMI which was $20,000 so i had to pay this tax.  It's bullshit that they get to do this but they do.  My PMI is up in 6 months and I will have an extra $81.00 a month in out pockets.

I'm not sure I agree with you on the bullshit part of this.  The PMI is not a tax, it's insurance from the lender that we pay so they feel comfortable giving a loan of money that we, at that point, showed we are not able to pay right then.  I think it's a fair way to get people to buy houses who otherwise would not have been able to.  LIke you said, it goes away once you get to 20%.  I'd be pissed if they kept it throughout the life of the loan.  I got another couple years before I reach that point, then $150 off my tab each month.

And Chino, I hear ya about the family part.   As a single guy (my brother lives with me) I have no issue with the small house that requires small maintenance.  I think I could only have one kid in this house before I'd want to move (its only 2 bedroom and 1.5 bath).  I just think it's more like I have zero kids than I have 2 kids hence why I can realistically see myself in the same spot for the remainder of my life.  I do have nice space in my basement though.  Honestly have put serious thought into building my laundry room into a studio for gaming and live streaming (aka going the full green screen and lighting route).  It's nice to have these options.

Tell me how many people have 20% to get a house for 1st time buyers?  It's another revenue stream for banks to make more money.

Well, also tell me, how many people who don't put down 20% foreclose and leave it to the bank?  I think it goes both ways here.  The banks take a risk on me, and I pay for it.  I am not trying to defend the banks (shit, I am paying them!) but I am just trying to look at it in a fair way.   I most certainly wouldn't of had a house if it weren't for this.  I would have been put into an apartment where I would struggle to save up that 20% and maybe could buy a house when I am 40.  Since it seems quite a few of us had/have FHA loans, I think we all benefitted from this program.  But also, luckily for this, I am now (slowly) building that home equity and next time I won't have to go the FHA route.

Well that was put in in the 90s after the banks went crazy on giving loans durring the 80s's period. They were Their Own Worst Enemy and now we pay for their gluttony.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: cramx3 on January 29, 2018, 01:42:49 PM
There's certainly lots of truth the to banks giving loans to people who shouldn't of gotten them.  I just look at it as I get something and they get something out of the deal, it's not really a one way street even if it works out better for the bank than me.  I am OK with that in this case.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: axeman90210 on January 29, 2018, 01:59:50 PM
Some of you guys are making me jealous with the cost of buying where you live. I'll probably be living at home for another two years while I save up for a down payment on a condo. There's a new condo unit under construction that I walk by every day, and while it's true this is going to be something of a luxury building, the banner on the site advertises that studio condos will start at 600K. Even an older 1 bedroom condo is going for at least 350K.

Well, you just need to get away from the city.  The burbs are where it's at.  The cost of living near the city is ridiculous if you ask me and I certainly don't make the kind of money to afford it either.  But I grew up here, I love it here, and I understand for some people, it's not even an option to move here just because of the city mentality.

Even the burbs are getting crazy. My friend went through a several month hunt trying to find a house in the suburbs (happily enough ended up moving a little over a mile from where I currently am) and it was a nightmare of bidding wars. People offering way over asking price in cash and that kind of stuff. Makes me pray that Newark doesn't get the new Amazon office because I'd hate to see what adding 50k tech workers would do to the housing market.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: cramx3 on January 29, 2018, 02:19:23 PM
True, but the market is good now so competition is happening.  There was little to no competition 5 years ago for me.  I made a low offer (20k under asking price) and was accepted the same weekend.  Had some help with my sweet talking mother (she was my real estate agent, as that is her profession, and she really did work the old lady home owner into the price).  But still, there was no bidding war or anything.  However, my friend bought a house a year ago and said there was a lot of bidding and house hunting.  Definitely sounds like a headache.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: Cool Chris on January 29, 2018, 02:29:51 PM
Makes me pray that Newark doesn't get the new Amazon office because I'd hate to see what adding 50k tech workers would do to the housing market.

As someone who is seeing firsthand what this can do to a housing market, I support your praying. Amazon et al has turned Seattle in to the land of the million dollar 600 sf house. That's not to say there are only downfalls. But since this is a discussion about housing, yes wherever Amazon HQ2 sets up shop will see housing prices go berserk.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: jingle.boy on January 29, 2018, 02:38:46 PM
It's pure insurance.  PMI pays for all the people that default on their mortgage, and foreclosure losses.  It's no different than any other kind of insurance.  If you never have a car accident, then car insurance is bull-shit.  If you never get sick, than disability insurance is bull-shit.

If the insurance premiums were born 100% by the banks, then a shit-ton more high-risk people would apply for mortgages (ie, people who can't afford the premiums), and there would be a lot more defaults/foreclosures - raising EVERYONE's cost of borrowing.

Capitalism at it's finest.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: kingshmegland on January 29, 2018, 02:53:05 PM
It's pure insurance.  PMI pays for all the people that default on their mortgage, and foreclosure losses.  It's no different than any other kind of insurance.  If you never have a car accident, then car insurance is bull-shit.  If you never get sick, than disability insurance is bull-shit.

If the insurance premiums were born 100% by the banks, then a shit-ton more high-risk people would apply for mortgages (ie, people who can't afford the premiums), and there would be a lot more defaults/foreclosures - raising EVERYONE's cost of borrowing.

Capitalism at it's finest.

Yup and their mistakes in the 80's have affected us now. 
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: Grappler on January 30, 2018, 06:15:08 AM
It's pure insurance.  PMI pays for all the people that default on their mortgage, and foreclosure losses.  It's no different than any other kind of insurance.  If you never have a car accident, then car insurance is bull-shit.  If you never get sick, than disability insurance is bull-shit.

If the insurance premiums were born 100% by the banks, then a shit-ton more high-risk people would apply for mortgages (ie, people who can't afford the premiums), and there would be a lot more defaults/foreclosures - raising EVERYONE's cost of borrowing.

Capitalism at it's finest.

I disagree.  It's bullshit that the banks take out the insurance policy and force the homeowners to pay for it, when it protects only the bank.  That was always my issue with it - why do I have to pay for your protection?

But I have no problem with the bank taking out that insurance - bad things can happen unexpectedly.  It's the reason that we have insurance.  Just because you've never been in a car accident or been ill doesn't mean that it won't happen eventually.  People can lose their jobs, take pay-cuts, and experience all sorts of financial issues that can lead them to defaulting on a mortgage.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: jingle.boy on January 30, 2018, 07:27:29 AM
It's pure insurance.  PMI pays for all the people that default on their mortgage, and foreclosure losses.  It's no different than any other kind of insurance.  If you never have a car accident, then car insurance is bull-shit.  If you never get sick, than disability insurance is bull-shit.

If the insurance premiums were born 100% by the banks, then a shit-ton more high-risk people would apply for mortgages (ie, people who can't afford the premiums), and there would be a lot more defaults/foreclosures - raising EVERYONE's cost of borrowing.

Capitalism at it's finest.
People can lose their jobs, take pay-cuts, and experience all sorts of financial issues that can lead them to defaulting on a mortgage.

I see your point, but I disagree.  It's economics.  If the banks had to bear that cost themselves, interest rates would go up.  All costs are eventually pushed down to the end consumer, or the last link in the value consumption chain.  Property/casualty insurance companies purchase insurance on the insurance they issue you (re-insurance).  You don't think you're bearing that cost in your car insurance premiums?
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: Stadler on January 30, 2018, 07:54:29 AM
Tell me how many people have 20% to get a house for 1st time buyers?  It's another revenue stream for banks to make more money.

I agree. Seems a bit steep and it's just another way for big money to hammer us. I get they need 'some' protection.....that protection should be them not lending the $$ or just charge the higher risk loans a higher interest rate. Nailing us to the tune of $100-$180 a month extra just because they can is BS.

But look at what you wrote:  if you're worried about "Big Money" (good tune, really hate the liberal descriptor "Big" before any institution they don't like.  Yes, I know you're not a liberal, but that's the origin of that terminology) why do you give them two options that actually make them the same amount of money but fuck over the little guy?  If they don't give YOU (the person without the 20% down), they WILL give it to someone else who does, meaning, they make their money and you don't have a house, or they charge higher interest, which  means they get their money and you still pay more?  Why wouldn't you take the PMI which actually also affords you some protection, and can fall off the note at the 20% equity point (a higher interest rate will not and would require you to pay additional closing costs, which is yet more money out of your pocket)?   
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: Stadler on January 30, 2018, 07:59:51 AM
There's certainly lots of truth the to banks giving loans to people who shouldn't of gotten them.  I just look at it as I get something and they get something out of the deal, it's not really a one way street even if it works out better for the bank than me.  I am OK with that in this case.

This is to King as well, but whoa whoa - why is it the banks' fault that someone got in over their head?   Every President since Reagan, and I only stop there because that's as far back as my direct knowledge goes, has had some program or some initiative to get people into their own homes.  Perhaps the things you guys say aren't true if we don't accept that owning your own home is a good thing, a goal, and a positive for both the people and communities (roots, quality of life, condition of our neighborhoods).  How many of you live in a community and you can tell which houses are "owned" and which are "rented"?   

Having said that, when I got into a little financial trouble around the time of my divorce, it was on me.  I signed the papers, I agreed to the debt, not the bank.   To blame the banks when Joe Blow doesn't make a mortgage payment - or call the bank for a restructuring - is kind of "Bernie thinking".   
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: kingshmegland on January 30, 2018, 08:03:51 AM
That's not the point.  it was the banks who wanted to give out loans like cigarettes to kids in the 50's.  If you were not financially well off to buy a house, then you can't get one.  No even though I was well enough to buy a house I was penalized because big banks saw an opportunity to make more money.  I paid more for their sins, not mine.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: Stadler on January 30, 2018, 08:07:20 AM
It's pure insurance.  PMI pays for all the people that default on their mortgage, and foreclosure losses.  It's no different than any other kind of insurance.  If you never have a car accident, then car insurance is bull-shit.  If you never get sick, than disability insurance is bull-shit.

If the insurance premiums were born 100% by the banks, then a shit-ton more high-risk people would apply for mortgages (ie, people who can't afford the premiums), and there would be a lot more defaults/foreclosures - raising EVERYONE's cost of borrowing.


Capitalism at it's finest.

I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not, but it IS capitalism at it's finest.  The alternative is what was tried with the ACA; fuck those that are healthy (here, financially capable) and make them pay for everyone else.    I think some of you are missing that you don't HAVE to pay PMI forever.  If you get your loan restructured and your property value has risen, PMI bye bye!   It's not a tax that goes forever. 

Plus, think about  it:  the PMI is meant to protect the lender in the event of a foreclosure.  Let's say you lose your job and can't pay for a month or so.   There are times when the PMI company will bridge your loan in order to prevent foreclosure.   Typical losses on a foreclosure can be as much as 30% of home value, and that would all come right from the PMI provider.   Speaking of job loss, some PMI providers will cover temporary, unexpected job losses, again, to prevent a foreclosure they have to pay on.   
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: Stadler on January 30, 2018, 08:09:05 AM
It's pure insurance.  PMI pays for all the people that default on their mortgage, and foreclosure losses.  It's no different than any other kind of insurance.  If you never have a car accident, then car insurance is bull-shit.  If you never get sick, than disability insurance is bull-shit.

If the insurance premiums were born 100% by the banks, then a shit-ton more high-risk people would apply for mortgages (ie, people who can't afford the premiums), and there would be a lot more defaults/foreclosures - raising EVERYONE's cost of borrowing.

Capitalism at it's finest.

I disagree.  It's bullshit that the banks take out the insurance policy and force the homeowners to pay for it, when it protects only the bank.  That was always my issue with it - why do I have to pay for your protection?

But I have no problem with the bank taking out that insurance - bad things can happen unexpectedly.  It's the reason that we have insurance.  Just because you've never been in a car accident or been ill doesn't mean that it won't happen eventually.  People can lose their jobs, take pay-cuts, and experience all sorts of financial issues that can lead them to defaulting on a mortgage.

See above; you DO get some protections from that insurance.  The insurance is against foreclosure.  They will often step in - to your advantage - when the outcome can prevent them taking a loss equal to 30% of the home value.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: jingle.boy on January 30, 2018, 08:11:33 AM
I was being 100% serious.  Charge what the market will bear.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: Stadler on January 30, 2018, 08:15:15 AM
That's not the point.  it was the banks who wanted to give out loans like cigarettes to kids in the 50's.  If you were not financially well off to buy a house, then you can't get one.  No even though I was well enough to buy a house I was penalized because big banks saw an opportunity to make more money.  I paid more for their sins, not mine.

I don't disagree, but "financially well off" is a subjective term, and it's not JUST "money for mortgage payment".   Compared with even 15 years ago think about all the monthly payments you have.  Cell phone. Spotify.  Cable.   Sirius.   Etc.  So the math that went into buying the house may or may not be valid now.   Plus if you're like my ex-wife, and a house isn't enough - got to furnish it! - buying the house may not be the problem; I may be able to afford the house, but once I take out an unsecured loan (credit card or otherwise) and now can't meet the payments on all of it, I'm fucked, but the bank had no part of that.   Why should they bear the risk of that?   They can't terminated the contract (that's what a mortgage is) except by following costly procedures.    Without PMI, foreclosures would be higher, which will also be spread out to the homeowner, so you're paying either way.   At least this way, there are at least some benefits for you the homeowner, and there's a way to avoid paying it.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: gmillerdrake on January 30, 2018, 08:21:11 AM
Tell me how many people have 20% to get a house for 1st time buyers?  It's another revenue stream for banks to make more money.

I agree. Seems a bit steep and it's just another way for big money to hammer us. I get they need 'some' protection.....that protection should be them not lending the $$ or just charge the higher risk loans a higher interest rate. Nailing us to the tune of $100-$180 a month extra just because they can is BS.

But look at what you wrote:  if you're worried about "Big Money" (good tune, really hate the liberal descriptor "Big" before any institution they don't like.  Yes, I know you're not a liberal, but that's the origin of that terminology) why do you give them two options that actually make them the same amount of money but fuck over the little guy?  If they don't give YOU (the person without the 20% down), they WILL give it to someone else who does, meaning, they make their money and you don't have a house, or they charge higher interest, which  means they get their money and you still pay more?  Why wouldn't you take the PMI which actually also affords you some protection, and can fall off the note at the 20% equity point (a higher interest rate will not and would require you to pay additional closing costs, which is yet more money out of your pocket)?

I don't have an issue with the banks making money on the loans they give out. They're the ones with the $$ to hand out so they should make money on it. But they are ALREADY making money on it with whatever interest rate they charge you. People with good credit get ___ interest rate, bad get ____....great gets ____. It seems simple enough and provides incentive for people to care about their decisions that could affect their credit scores. PMI or whatever loan insurance 'in case' the loan is defaulted on should be assumed by the banks and not by the borrowers.

Or, they could just lower the cost of PMI. Tacking on an additional $100+ to a house payment is brutal for most everyone. I know I could use an extra $100 a month.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: lordxizor on January 30, 2018, 08:24:36 AM
If they didn't charge PMI, they'd just raise the interest rate by an equivalent amount. PMI sucks, but I don't get the backlash against it. The banks will get their money one way or another. And you can get rid of PMI after you have 20% equity in your home. It is my choice to buy a house with less than 20% down, so I chose to have PMI. If I din't like it that much I could have saved fora couple more years toward my down payment.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: cramx3 on January 30, 2018, 08:29:29 AM
If they didn't charge PMI, they'd just raise the interest rate by an equivalent amount. PMI sucks, but I don't get the backlash against it. The banks will get their money one way or another. And you can get rid of PMI after you have 20% equity in your home. It is my choice to buy a house with less than 20% down, so I chose to have PMI. If I din't like it that much I could have saved fora couple more years toward my down payment.

Exactly, I get to live in a house where I otherwise wouldn't be able to for a bit longer.  I got to get in on a house investment in a down market.  It was to my benefit to get the PMI and live here.  It sucks, but it will go away when I meet the requirements and it's what both the bank and I agreed upon.  No one forced this, but I am happy I had this option.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: jingle.boy on January 30, 2018, 08:34:04 AM
If they didn't charge PMI, they'd just raise the interest rate by an equivalent amount.

And then EVERYONE would be "paying" for that cost (of insurance) for the entire life of the mortgage, not just until you have 20% of it paid off.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: kingshmegland on January 30, 2018, 08:41:18 AM
If they didn't charge PMI, they'd just raise the interest rate by an equivalent amount. PMI sucks, but I don't get the backlash against it. The banks will get their money one way or another. And you can get rid of PMI after you have 20% equity in your home. It is my choice to buy a house with less than 20% down, so I chose to have PMI. If I din't like it that much I could have saved fora couple more years toward my down payment.

Before the late 80's I didn't have to worry about PMI.  You are forgetting how the banks mismanaged handing out loans causing them to add PMI to protect themselves from themselves. 
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: gmillerdrake on January 30, 2018, 08:44:46 AM
Before the late 80's I didn't have to worry about PMI.  You are forgetting how the banks mismanaged handing out loans causing them to add PMI to protect themselves from themselves.

This is the gist of it all.

Not arguing against this:

If they didn't charge PMI, they'd just raise the interest rate by an equivalent amount. PMI sucks, but I don't get the backlash against it. The banks will get their money one way or another. And you can get rid of PMI after you have 20% equity in your home. It is my choice to buy a house with less than 20% down, so I chose to have PMI. If I din't like it that much I could have saved fora couple more years toward my down payment.

or this:

Exactly, I get to live in a house where I otherwise wouldn't be able to for a bit longer.  I got to get in on a house investment in a down market.  It was to my benefit to get the PMI and live here.  It sucks, but it will go away when I meet the requirements and it's what both the bank and I agreed upon.  No one forced this, but I am happy I had this option.

but King's point is the source of the frustration. PMI is there because of the fault of the banking industry.....not the borrowers.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: Stadler on January 30, 2018, 09:41:53 AM
Tell me how many people have 20% to get a house for 1st time buyers?  It's another revenue stream for banks to make more money.

I agree. Seems a bit steep and it's just another way for big money to hammer us. I get they need 'some' protection.....that protection should be them not lending the $$ or just charge the higher risk loans a higher interest rate. Nailing us to the tune of $100-$180 a month extra just because they can is BS.

But look at what you wrote:  if you're worried about "Big Money" (good tune, really hate the liberal descriptor "Big" before any institution they don't like.  Yes, I know you're not a liberal, but that's the origin of that terminology) why do you give them two options that actually make them the same amount of money but fuck over the little guy?  If they don't give YOU (the person without the 20% down), they WILL give it to someone else who does, meaning, they make their money and you don't have a house, or they charge higher interest, which  means they get their money and you still pay more?  Why wouldn't you take the PMI which actually also affords you some protection, and can fall off the note at the 20% equity point (a higher interest rate will not and would require you to pay additional closing costs, which is yet more money out of your pocket)?

I don't have an issue with the banks making money on the loans they give out. They're the ones with the $$ to hand out so they should make money on it. But they are ALREADY making money on it with whatever interest rate they charge you. People with good credit get ___ interest rate, bad get ____....great gets ____. It seems simple enough and provides incentive for people to care about their decisions that could affect their credit scores. PMI or whatever loan insurance 'in case' the loan is defaulted on should be assumed by the banks and not by the borrowers.

Or, they could just lower the cost of PMI. Tacking on an additional $100+ to a house payment is brutal for most everyone. I know I could use an extra $100 a month.

First, "insurance" costs what it costs.  It gets underwritten and is what it is.   A lesser premium WOULD be a tax or a penalty, because it wouldn't cover the risk.

Second, I respectfully think you're looking at this from the wrong direction.  Why would  the banks assume that charge?   They are going to put their money to work one way or another.  They are going to get their return.  If you, the potential homeowner, want a house, you have only so many options.   With the time value of money being what it is, it's almost NEVER more cost effective to wait until you've saved the 20%, or till your credit score is sufficient to get that extra 1% off your interest rate.   You end up paying more in the long run that way.   

So the option is, higher interest rate for the life of the loan, or PMI for a period of time (roughly ten years on a 250K loan with 3.5% down, FHA numbers).   Funny thing?  On a $250K loan for 30 years, the difference between a 3.75% interest rate and a 4.75% interest rate is.... wait for it Long Beach, wait for it!     Just over $100.   
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: gmillerdrake on January 30, 2018, 09:44:54 AM
I respectfully think you're looking at this from the wrong direction.

I can almost guarantee that  :lol   I don't disagree with any of what you've replied/responded with. It's more of an emotional plea of there 'has' to be a better way.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: Stadler on January 30, 2018, 09:46:48 AM

but King's point is the source of the frustration. PMI is there because of the fault of the banking industry.....not the borrowers.

And that's where we disagree.  I don't believe that at all.   The bank didn't force those people to buy those houses.  The bank didn't make the financial choices every month to pay for satellite dishes and iPhones instead of paying for the mortgage.   The bank didn't not call for a modification to the loan to make it possible to catch up (I know three people - personally - that got pushed into a foreclosure process.  Only one of them called and worked through the process of modifying the loan to avoid foreclosure; the other two just simply stopped paying.  Guess which one still owns the house to this day?)   

The note is held by the homeowner.  The homeowner is responsible for the terms of that note.  If the note is defaulted on, that is the responsibility of the homeowner.   
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: Stadler on January 30, 2018, 09:49:15 AM
I respectfully think you're looking at this from the wrong direction.

I can almost guarantee that  :lol   I don't disagree with any of what you've replied/responded with. It's more of an emotional plea of there 'has' to be a better way.

I'm not sure I'd argue that point.  There probably is a better way. As a general proposition, I'm not the hugest fan of insurance, so I understand your point.  It's just the better of the two or three options we have right now.   I think my biggest issue isn't any of this stuff, but the post above.  I really have a hard time with any scenario that takes responsibility away from those in the position to make the decision or not.    The banks aren't forcing anyone to do anything with a gun to their head. 
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: kingshmegland on January 30, 2018, 10:01:00 AM

but King's point is the source of the frustration. PMI is there because of the fault of the banking industry.....not the borrowers.

And that's where we disagree.  I don't believe that at all.   The bank didn't force those people to buy those houses.  The bank didn't make the financial choices every month to pay for satellite dishes and iPhones instead of paying for the mortgage.   The bank didn't not call for a modification to the loan to make it possible to catch up (I know three people - personally - that got pushed into a foreclosure process.  Only one of them called and worked through the process of modifying the loan to avoid foreclosure; the other two just simply stopped paying.  Guess which one still owns the house to this day?)   

The note is held by the homeowner.  The homeowner is responsible for the terms of that note.  If the note is defaulted on, that is the responsibility of the homeowner.

While i understand this, it's the bankers who guide the homebuyers on how much they can afford and not guide them into a mortgage that the homebuyer has little understanding.  For example while it was new the adjustable load rates was a bad idea.  People after a year could not handle the loans when it skyrocketed higher than excepted.  It's not that the buyers were dumb, just not full informed by those handing out these new style loans.

In the end it is on the buyer but at that time, they were mislead leading to all the foreclosures.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: Stadler on January 30, 2018, 10:19:13 AM
We'll have to respectfully disagree.  We may be talking more philosophy here, but a base assumption of my world view is that if I'm underinformed, it's no one's responsibility but my own.    Doesn't mean I'm right and you're wrong, it just means we're operating under different assumptions.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: kingshmegland on January 30, 2018, 10:21:23 AM
Now we are better educated.  That onslaught in the 80's with all the new and different loans people were not and then banks walking them into bad loans.   The banks were not straightforward then.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: jingle.boy on January 30, 2018, 10:30:35 AM
I don't think that because some group got a better deal in the past than you (royal 'you') are getting today means you're entitled to that deal.  Yeah, the banks over-extended themselves, and adjusted.  Just because someone got a better-than-they-deserved deal doesn't mean you're getting screwed.

Another point... the banks are pushing the cost of mitigating the risk of default to the party that would ultimately be responsible for the default.  I really don't see a problem in this.

I would compare it to the landlord that offers rent + utilities vs rent with utilities included.  You think it's the same rent?  Hell no... they are passing the cost of the utilities down to their customer - either discretely, or embedded into the price of the main 'product'.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: Implode on February 02, 2018, 12:38:08 PM
I was looking for the thread a while ago and couldn't find it. Not to interrupt the discussion, but I just closed on my first home on Wednesday. It's just a 1500 sqft townhome, but I'm still really excited about it.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: Cool Chris on February 02, 2018, 12:48:40 PM
Congratulations! Give us more deets, brah!
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: cramx3 on February 02, 2018, 12:51:14 PM
I was looking for the thread a while ago and couldn't find it. Not to interrupt the discussion, but I just closed on my first home on Wednesday. It's just a 1500 sqft townhome, but I'm still really excited about it.

Congrats, thats awesome  :yarr
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: Phoenix87x on February 02, 2018, 01:31:33 PM
I was looking for the thread a while ago and couldn't find it. Not to interrupt the discussion, but I just closed on my first home on Wednesday. It's just a 1500 sqft townhome, but I'm still really excited about it.

That's awesome. Its a surreal and exciting experience.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: Implode on February 02, 2018, 01:47:47 PM
Thanks guys.

Congratulations! Give us more deets, brah!

No interesting deets yet. 2 bed 2.5 bath with extra room to be my cosplay workshop. It's a bit dirty so I need to really clean it, but it's good. Unfortunately I can't really begin to do work on it and move in for a couple weeks, but it's gonna be great.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: ReaperKK on February 03, 2018, 05:05:34 PM
Congrats!
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: millahh on February 03, 2018, 06:37:53 PM
Looks like I'm finally joining the club, we just went under contract on a place, beautiful 1920s house in Maplwood NJ with a (relatively) huge yard.  It was just the second place we looked at, but we knew the market and knew what we wanted.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: ReaperKK on February 03, 2018, 08:26:29 PM
Nice! Congrats millahh, when is the tentative close date?
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: millahh on February 03, 2018, 08:36:50 PM
April 20 is the tentative date, though would ideally push it out a week or two, to minimize paying both rent and mortgage any longer than necessary.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: axeman90210 on February 03, 2018, 10:29:03 PM
Mazel tov sir! We'll have to do beers before the suburbs take you.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: cramx3 on February 04, 2018, 09:21:38 AM
Looks like I'm finally joining the club, we just went under contract on a place, beautiful 1920s house in Maplwood NJ with a (relatively) huge yard.  It was just the second place we looked at, but we knew the market and knew what we wanted.

Nice, that doesn't seem to far away from you now (I think) and into suburbia.  I'll be over by you for the Bon Jovi concert before you move out
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: millahh on February 04, 2018, 11:49:17 AM
Looks like I'm finally joining the club, we just went under contract on a place, beautiful 1920s house in Maplwood NJ with a (relatively) huge yard.  It was just the second place we looked at, but we knew the market and knew what we wanted.

Nice, that doesn't seem to far away from you now (I think) and into suburbia.  I'll be over by you for the Bon Jovi concert before you move out

It's only about a 16 minute drive (at off-peak) from where we are now, and a relatively short train ride as well.

Convening @ the Biergarten (or Barcade) soon will be a sound decision. 
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: gmillerdrake on February 04, 2018, 12:40:07 PM
Looks like I'm finally joining the club, we just went under contract on a place, beautiful 1920s house in Maplwood NJ with a (relatively) huge yard.  It was just the second place we looked at, but we knew the market and knew what we wanted.

 :tup   despite the stress that can come with finding/purchasing a new home it's always exciting as it's a new chapter in your life. Good Luck!!
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: Nick on February 06, 2018, 10:39:10 AM
I was looking for the thread a while ago and couldn't find it. Not to interrupt the discussion, but I just closed on my first home on Wednesday. It's just a 1500 sqft townhome, but I'm still really excited about it.

Congrats, you're basically following in our footsteps. Our first and current home was bought Sep. 2016 and is 1,400 square feet. Weird having 2.5 bath in something that size, I must say. In any case we have 3 "bedrooms" and only use the master. One of the rooms is Jennie's office, with a little storage, and the other has her crafting stuff, a closet for my hockey gear, and my electronic drum kit.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: ReaperKK on February 06, 2018, 08:29:49 PM
Looking at this thread just reminds me that even though it can be a pain to keep up with my house it's amazing to have my own space and no one above or below me like my city apartment
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: Phoenix87x on February 12, 2018, 06:25:01 AM
I was analyzing my mortgage payments and wow, the interest alone paid each month is 3x the principal. Amazing

(https://s3.amazonaws.com/media.pinterest.com/previews/BLmyVnjG.png)

Thank goodness that 74 grand isn't a mammoth amount overall. My heart goes out to people with 200-300 thousand dollar mortgages. How in the holy hell do people handle payments like that. Damn
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: lordxizor on February 12, 2018, 06:35:08 AM
My heart goes out to people with 200-300 thousand dollar mortgages. How in the holy hell do people handle payments like that. Damn
Yeah, it kinda sucks, but obviously we all buy homes that are within our means to pay for. My mortgage + all the extras is $1700 a month. Renting a similar home would likely be $1800-2000 a month, so I guess it's worth it.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: millahh on February 12, 2018, 06:53:39 AM
Looking at this thread just reminds me that even though it can be a pain to keep up with my house it's amazing to have my own space and no one above or below me like my city apartment

Yeah, I'm not going to miss living above a bar, or having asshole neighbors.  Of course, the cost of that is a mortgage that, while reasonably within our means, is...substantial.  But, such is the nature of having a nice house in a great neighborhood in the NYC metro area.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: kaos2900 on February 12, 2018, 07:24:59 AM
We just bought our second house! The home inspection is scheduled for tomorrow and then we just have to sell our house.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: Chino on February 12, 2018, 08:05:24 AM
We just bought our second house! The home inspection is scheduled for tomorrow and then we just have to sell our house.

This is the thing I'm least looking forward to about being a homeowner.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: Phoenix87x on February 12, 2018, 08:15:30 AM
We just bought our second house! The home inspection is scheduled for tomorrow and then we just have to sell our house.

This is the thing I'm least looking forward to about being a homeowner.

Me too. It seems like the pain in the ass to end all pain in the asses. Buying was enough of a headache...
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: Stadler on February 12, 2018, 08:26:35 AM
I was analyzing my mortgage payments and wow, the interest alone paid each month is 3x the principal. Amazing

(https://s3.amazonaws.com/media.pinterest.com/previews/BLmyVnjG.png)

Thank goodness that 74 grand isn't a mammoth amount overall. My heart goes out to people with 200-300 thousand dollar mortgages. How in the holy hell do people handle payments like that. Damn

Your interest rate is a shade high (but probably not high enough to think about a refi) but you should kind of rethink your complaint about "interest" (which you can get back at tax time as it can be written off) and pray, burn candles, whatever it is you do to give thanks to an unkind cosmos, because your escrow payment is about 20% of mine, and your insurance is about 10% of mine.   
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: Cool Chris on February 12, 2018, 08:34:13 AM
My heart goes out to people with 200-300 thousand dollar mortgages. How in the holy hell do people handle payments like that. Damn

I don't think there is a homeowner within 50 miles of me who has a mortgage for less than that.

Yeah, it kinda sucks, but obviously we all buy homes that are within our means to pay for.

Sadly many people buy homes that are not within their means.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: cramx3 on February 12, 2018, 08:50:46 AM
I was analyzing my mortgage payments and wow, the interest alone paid each month is 3x the principal. Amazing

(https://s3.amazonaws.com/media.pinterest.com/previews/BLmyVnjG.png)

Thank goodness that 74 grand isn't a mammoth amount overall. My heart goes out to people with 200-300 thousand dollar mortgages. How in the holy hell do people handle payments like that. Damn

Your interest rate is a shade high (but probably not high enough to think about a refi) but you should kind of rethink your complaint about "interest" (which you can get back at tax time as it can be written off) and pray, burn candles, whatever it is you do to give thanks to an unkind cosmos, because your escrow payment is about 20% of mine, and your insurance is about 10% of mine.

Yea, my interests payments are really high as well just due to being so early in a 30 year loan, that I don't start making that dent into the principal for a bit. I've looked at the numbers (they give like a 10 page printout of each payment of the life of the loan when I signed so I knew exactly what my numbers would look like in year 1 vs 10 vs 25 so this doesn't hit me hard since I understand the why and how this came to be).  But yea, that insurance and tax makes me jealous.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: Chino on February 12, 2018, 09:02:29 AM
I was analyzing my mortgage payments and wow, the interest alone paid each month is 3x the principal. Amazing

(https://s3.amazonaws.com/media.pinterest.com/previews/BLmyVnjG.png)

Thank goodness that 74 grand isn't a mammoth amount overall. My heart goes out to people with 200-300 thousand dollar mortgages. How in the holy hell do people handle payments like that. Damn

If it's any consolation. Here is my breakdown for an 1800 Sqft home that cost $143K

Principal Payment: $235.77
Interest Payment: $407.45
Escrow & Insuarance Payment: $682.26
Other Charges: $5.93
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: cramx3 on February 12, 2018, 09:24:20 AM
Why not, from last month:

Quote
Principal Received$402.90
Interest Received$703.81
Escrow Received$859.92
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: gmillerdrake on February 12, 2018, 09:25:24 AM
I was analyzing my mortgage payments and wow, the interest alone paid each month is 3x the principal. Amazing

(https://s3.amazonaws.com/media.pinterest.com/previews/BLmyVnjG.png)

Thank goodness that 74 grand isn't a mammoth amount overall. My heart goes out to people with 200-300 thousand dollar mortgages. How in the holy hell do people handle payments like that. Damn

If it's any consolation. Here is my breakdown for an 1800 Sqft home that cost $143K

Principal Payment: $235.77
Interest Payment: $407.45
Escrow & Insuarance Payment: $682.26
Other Charges: $5.93


Ours on a $270k loan

Principal Payment: $427.28
Interest Payment: $922.16
Escrow & Insuarance Payment: $405.33
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: jingle.boy on February 12, 2018, 10:35:31 AM
Aye Carumba!!!  I'm so glad it's been a long time since I've been on the wrong side of P+I payments.  I bought my first house in 1999, and moved 3 years after that.  Still in the same house - though our runway to moving is going to be about a year or so.   Not to rub it in to anyone, but I paid it off last April.  THAT, ladies and gentlemen, is the benefit of home ownership - less than 20 years, and no more monthly payments.  Ever.  I consider myself very lucky in that regard - between the profit we made on the first house, getting the 2nd house for a steal, re-financing with a shortened amortization period when interest rates bottomed out, and my separation package last year ... we had a run of good things happen to get to this point.

Don't get me started on property taxes though.   :biggrin:
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: millahh on February 12, 2018, 10:42:21 AM
Taxes...sigh.  The yearly on our soon-to-be place are almost $18K.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: Cool Chris on February 12, 2018, 10:44:03 AM
Good lord, ours are $4200 and I thought those were high, mainly because of the ~15% increase from last year.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: axeman90210 on February 12, 2018, 10:44:56 AM
Taxes...sigh.  The yearly on our soon-to-be place are almost $18K.

Yeah, the taxes on my parents' place are in that neighborhood as well. Hooray New Jersey  :|
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: jingle.boy on February 12, 2018, 10:45:29 AM
Good lord, ours are $4200 and I thought those were high, mainly because of the ~15% increase from last year.

I'm a tad higher, just under $5k.  Milahh's livin the high life!
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: cramx3 on February 12, 2018, 10:46:29 AM
Good lord, ours are $4200 and I thought those were high, mainly because of the ~15% increase from last year.

I'm a tad higher, just under $5k.  Milahh's livin the high life!

$6700 after last years increase for me, yay NJ
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: kaos2900 on February 12, 2018, 11:33:25 AM
We just bought our second house! The home inspection is scheduled for tomorrow and then we just have to sell our house.

This is the thing I'm least looking forward to about being a homeowner.

In Omaha it's 100% a sellers market right now and houses in our price range are selling same day with competing offers. We were lucky to find our new house so quickly with no competition.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: gmillerdrake on February 12, 2018, 11:57:00 AM
We just bought our second house! The home inspection is scheduled for tomorrow and then we just have to sell our house.

I've been contacted by (4) agents....two of whom I know....in the past three months asking if we'd be willing to sell our house. Apparently, the inventory for our particular price range/square footage etc. is extremely low in the St. Louis area and so we've been told that we could make some good $$.

It is tempting but we love our location, neighbors and the school system the kiddos are in so we are standing pat. But...if we were to sell at the price my buddy told me our house would most certainly sell at....we'd be staring at a $60k gain (prior to paying the costs associated with selling a home) Like I said...tempting but we've decided against it.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: cramx3 on February 12, 2018, 11:59:17 AM
There's something to be said about being happy with all those things that money can't buy (or it will at least cost a large amount).
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: Stadler on February 12, 2018, 12:01:07 PM
We just bought our second house! The home inspection is scheduled for tomorrow and then we just have to sell our house.

I've been contacted by (4) agents....two of whom I know....in the past three months asking if we'd be willing to sell our house. Apparently, the inventory for our particular price range/square footage etc. is extremely low in the St. Louis area and so we've been told that we could make some good $$.

It is tempting but we love our location, neighbors and the school system the kiddos are in so we are standing pat. But...if we were to sell at the price my buddy told me our house would most certainly sell at....we'd be staring at a $60k gain (prior to paying the costs associated with selling a home) Like I said...tempting but we've decided against it.

Selling like that is only a sound strategy if you have a fallback plan for living.   You might make $60k, but then you have to buy in that same market, AND absorb the costs of a transaction and a move.   Obviously there are too many variables in something like this to truly judge from an internet forum post, but first blush, you're right to not be greedy and/or short sighted. 
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: gmillerdrake on February 12, 2018, 12:09:03 PM
We just bought our second house! The home inspection is scheduled for tomorrow and then we just have to sell our house.

I've been contacted by (4) agents....two of whom I know....in the past three months asking if we'd be willing to sell our house. Apparently, the inventory for our particular price range/square footage etc. is extremely low in the St. Louis area and so we've been told that we could make some good $$.

It is tempting but we love our location, neighbors and the school system the kiddos are in so we are standing pat. But...if we were to sell at the price my buddy told me our house would most certainly sell at....we'd be staring at a $60k gain (prior to paying the costs associated with selling a home) Like I said...tempting but we've decided against it.

Selling like that is only a sound strategy if you have a fallback plan for living.   You might make $60k, but then you have to buy in that same market, AND absorb the costs of a transaction and a move.   Obviously there are too many variables in something like this to truly judge from an internet forum post, but first blush, you're right to not be greedy and/or short sighted.

Those really are the reasons we've chose to stand pat Bill. It 'sounds' great but when it's all said and done the hassle involved in changing locations, schools, ancillary expenses that moves require etc etc.....it's just simply not worth it.

I mean....we'd be selling our house to try and find the same house  :lol  Plus, we've put a lot of work into it in the four years we've been there and I have a pretty neat plan to finish off our back yard living area....so, it just isn't the right call for us. But when you see the potential for big numbers like that you can get hypnotized by them easily.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: jingle.boy on February 12, 2018, 01:07:43 PM
Hang tight Gary... in 10 years, you'll likely make even more of a killing when you ARE ready make that change.  jingle.kids are gonna be out of the house in less than a year, and at that point there is nothing holding us to our house/city.  The house has appreciated about 2.5x at a conservative estimate, and even if there's a "crash" in the next 12 months, we'd be down to about 2x value from what we paid - and we've only been here 16 years.

There will be another 'sellers' market in the future.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: gmillerdrake on February 12, 2018, 01:24:23 PM
Hang tight Gary... in 10 years, you'll likely make even more of a killing when you ARE ready make that change.  jingle.kids are gonna be out of the house in less than a year, and at that point there is nothing holding us to our house/city.  The house has appreciated about 2.5x at a conservative estimate, and even if there's a "crash" in the next 12 months, we'd be down to about 2x value from what we paid - and we've only been here 16 years.

There will be another 'sellers' market in the future.

Yep. We were really blessed from the get go thanks to a very good decision my wife made on purchasing her first home. She bought a house in St. Louis city about three years before we met for $90k. Really nice home, had off the street parking in the back of the home....really quaint and nice starter home. Yadda Yadda Yadda few years goes by....we meet, get engaged and she decides to sell so when we get married we can find our first home together.

she ended up selling that house for $138k !!! It was spring of 2005 when she sold it....we got married in June of 05' and bought our first starter home. Fast Forward to 2008 and the housing market crash. I can almost guarantee whomever that was that bought her house....unless they are still in it.....took a major hit.
but, that chunk of change she made set us up nice on our first home and the one we have now as far as money down.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: ReaperKK on February 13, 2018, 05:15:01 AM
I was analyzing my mortgage payments and wow, the interest alone paid each month is 3x the principal. Amazing

(https://s3.amazonaws.com/media.pinterest.com/previews/BLmyVnjG.png)

Thank goodness that 74 grand isn't a mammoth amount overall. My heart goes out to people with 200-300 thousand dollar mortgages. How in the holy hell do people handle payments like that. Damn

Our house is $279k and with insurance, taxes, PMI, and principal + interest it comes out to $1740 a month. They just built an apartment complex close to my neighborhood and a 3 bedroom 1400 sqft apartment starts at $1850 a month, I have a brand new house that's 3000 sqft. Granted there are more costs associated to having a home but the advantages (to me) having my own place far outweigh those costs.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: Podaar on February 13, 2018, 06:37:49 AM
I was analyzing my mortgage payments and wow, the interest alone paid each month is 3x the principal. Amazing

(https://s3.amazonaws.com/media.pinterest.com/previews/BLmyVnjG.png)

Thank goodness that 74 grand isn't a mammoth amount overall. My heart goes out to people with 200-300 thousand dollar mortgages. How in the holy hell do people handle payments like that. Damn

Just saw this.

The best, reasonable way, to handle interest that I've found is to make an extra payment (or two if you can) annually and have it go toward the principal only (some lending institutions will apply to the interest by default...rotten bastards). It's only truly effective if you can do it from the inception of the loan which, of course, is the most difficult time to do it. By doing that, I cut better than five years off of my 15 year mortgage. That's quite a bit of interest.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: lordxizor on February 13, 2018, 06:45:05 AM
Technically, you're better off taking that extra house payment and investing it in a Roth IRA instead. You don't pay your house off faster, but you get an average of 7% a year in growth as opposed to the 3-5% that your mortgage interest is, plus you can deduct your mortgage interest if you itemize deductions in your taxes. It's definitely nice to get your house paid off faster, but you'll come out ahead investing those extra payments instead.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: millahh on February 13, 2018, 07:24:35 AM
This conversation is doing my head in...our to-be place is $629K, ~$18K/yr in taxes, and is slightly less than 2000 ft^2.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: cramx3 on February 13, 2018, 07:29:54 AM
This conversation is doing my head in...our to-be place is $629K, ~$18K/yr in taxes, and is slightly less than 2000 ft^2.

Hooray New Jersey  :|

yay NJ
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: kaos2900 on February 13, 2018, 10:39:42 AM
This conversation is doing my head in...our to-be place is $629K, ~$18K/yr in taxes, and is slightly less than 2000 ft^2.

The house we bought in a suburb of Omaha is 3700 sqft and we paid $260,000 with $5000 in taxes per year. You can get a lot of house in this City for the money compared to other cities.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: kaos2900 on April 02, 2018, 12:08:11 PM
Our house went live at 9:30 this morning and we already have 10 showings scheduled for today! The market is crazy right now!
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: gmillerdrake on April 02, 2018, 12:13:54 PM
Our house went live at 9:30 this morning and we already have 10 showings scheduled for today! The market is crazy right now!

 :tup    It's definitely a sellers market right now. I personally know three couples who's homes sold within days....one of which was the day they listed. Here's to hoping you guys get an offer tonight!!!
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: Grappler on April 02, 2018, 12:34:00 PM
This conversation is doing my head in...our to-be place is $629K, ~$18K/yr in taxes, and is slightly less than 2000 ft^2.

The house we bought in a suburb of Omaha is 3700 sqft and we paid $260,000 with $5000 in taxes per year. You can get a lot of house in this City for the money compared to other cities.

I live in Illinois and pay $6,300 in taxes for a 1,600 square foot house.   :censored
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: ReaperKK on April 02, 2018, 12:40:14 PM
Itís nuts here in Charlotte too. One of our neighbors is selling their house because they are moving to another state and it was on the market for all of two hours.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: gmillerdrake on April 02, 2018, 12:45:22 PM
We are getting new next door neighbors this month. Our neighbor sold his house....took 6 days to sell.....and the new folks are moving in on the 27th this month.

He has a pretty sweet gig actually. He's the Superintendent for the Builder who is building the homes in our subdivision. The way some of his compensation works is that he gets to build a house for cost in whichever community his company is building in.....he lives on site as the community is built....then once they are near completion he moves on to the next.

There's only (3) lots left in our subdivision so he's on to the next. He has a modest Ranch, 1600 sf with an unfinished basement that he told me he built for $215k...just cost. He sold it for $283k. He's been there for (4)  years so that's a nice close to $70k 'bonus'.  :lol 
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: kaos2900 on April 02, 2018, 01:53:33 PM
We just got our first offer. Asking price with information only home inspection, they will beat out any offer up to $12k more than asking price!
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: gmillerdrake on April 02, 2018, 01:58:35 PM
We just got our first offer. Asking price with information only home inspection, they will beat out any offer up to $12k more than asking price!


Wow!!!!     :metal    That's awesome!!!
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: Phoenix87x on April 02, 2018, 03:47:34 PM
Damn, that was quick. Awesome
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: lordxizor on April 03, 2018, 07:15:49 AM
I sometimes think we should sell our house and rent for a while waiting for the inevitable correction to housing prices. Seems like things can't keep going up like they have. It feels like the mid-2000's again. Though with interest rates going up things have cooled a little. We just put a brand new roof and siding on our place (thanks hailstorm) which would help the value a bunch. We could probably walk away netting $50-60k after only 3 years in the house. But rental prices are high right now too so it's likely not worth it.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: cramx3 on April 03, 2018, 08:02:06 AM
We just got our first offer. Asking price with information only home inspection, they will beat out any offer up to $12k more than asking price!

Damn, thats pretty awesome.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: Implode on April 03, 2018, 09:36:16 AM
I sometimes think we should sell our house and rent for a while waiting for the inevitable correction to housing prices. Seems like things can't keep going up like they have. It feels like the mid-2000's again.

That's something I'm worried about. I just bought a townhome, and I know it's not likely to go up in value, but it'd be nice if I didn't lose a ton of money either. I really hope I didn't buy right before a crash.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: gmillerdrake on April 03, 2018, 09:59:15 AM
We could probably walk away netting $50-60k after only 3 years in the house. But rental prices are high right now too so it's likely not worth it.

We're in the exact same spot as far as the amount of equity we have in our home....although we've been there 4 years. We contemplated a move, maybe a downsize but with three growing boys it just didn't seem logical. We just feel blessed that we're even in the position that we're in so we will call it even. We bought this house with the intention of staying here until at least the boys graduating high school...maybe longer, so we're gonna resist the temptation....put some effort into our house as far as yard work etc. and ride it out.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: Nick on April 03, 2018, 10:05:07 AM
Since we bought our house with no money down and seller assist to help with most of the closing costs it'll be a long time till we have to worry about such things! Probably have to live there another 3-4 years worth of payments, with the extra I add in every month till we see any actual equity in the home during a sale.

However I have done several improvements to the home, so hopefully that will help keep its value up or increase it a tad.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: bosk1 on April 03, 2018, 10:07:42 AM
I sometimes think we should sell our house and rent for a while waiting for the inevitable correction to housing prices. Seems like things can't keep going up like they have. It feels like the mid-2000's again.

That's something I'm worried about. I just bought a townhome, and I know it's not likely to go up in value, but it'd be nice if I didn't lose a ton of money either. I really hope I didn't buy right before a crash.
I wouldn't let that worry you UNLESS you believe you are likely to move in the next five years, or if you don't have enough to really afford it in the first place.  Historically, real estate almost always goes up in the long term.  But, yeah, it's easy to get burned in the short term if you buy at a peak and then need/want to leave when you are still upside down or just haven't made enough. 

All that said, there is a lot of wisdom in this simple formula:
-Make sure you have AT LEAST 20% down.
-Make sure the P&I on a 15 year fixed (and preferably tax and insurance as well) is not more than 25% of your take home pay.

If you meet both of those and plan to stay 5 years, you probably stand to gain by buying as soon as you are ready.  If not, start saving.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: Chino on April 03, 2018, 10:32:17 AM
I don't know about the generation before mine, but with people in my age bracket, 20% down is basically unheard of. Several of the people I'm close with have bought homes since I bought my first 3.5 years ago, and none of us had anywhere close to 20% to put down. I put down 4%. The number of 25-30 year olds having $35K plus just sitting in savings for a down payment is pretty low.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: Cool Chris on April 03, 2018, 10:39:22 AM
20% is definitely a barrier many people will find hard to achieve, but it seems like perhaps people these days are striving to purchase a home earlier in their lives than they did a generation or two ago. The younger you are, the less time you've had to accumulate enough wealth for that 20%.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: bosk1 on April 03, 2018, 10:44:54 AM
Of course.  But notice that I said "save."  I didn't say "find money just sitting in your savings account."  Saving is "unheard of" for a lot of people because they don't make the effort to save.  And when I say "effort," I mean things like sacrificing eating out, going to the game, going on vacation, getting that new, cool "thing," or whatever.  If you save and sacrifice like nobody's business for 3-5 years, you should be able to come up with 20% in most markets.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: mikeyd23 on April 03, 2018, 10:46:00 AM
I don't know about the generation before mine, but with people in my age bracket, 20% down is basically unheard of. Several of the people I'm close with have bought homes since I bought my first 3.5 years ago, and none of us had anywhere close to 20% to put down. I put down 4%. The number of 25-30 year olds having $35K plus just sitting in savings for a down payment is pretty low.

Agreed. Our generation (I'm assuming we are around the same age, I'm 28) simply does not have that kind of money sitting around, it's very rare.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: Nick on April 03, 2018, 10:51:16 AM
Of course.  But notice that I said "save."  I didn't say "find money just sitting in your savings account."  Saving is "unheard of" for a lot of people because they don't make the effort to save.  And when I say "effort," I mean things like sacrificing eating out, going to the game, going on vacation, getting that new, cool "thing," or whatever.  If you save and sacrifice like nobody's business for 3-5 years, you should be able to come up with 20% in most markets.

Even if I made all the attempts in the world, the thought of saving 30,000 before age 30 would be nearly impossible. And part of it would come at a cost of paying the absolute minimum towards student loans and the like, which is barely really saving at that point. Frankly I don't know why anybody would want to save to that degree if it means a non-existent quality of life. Perhaps if you've got a well off family taking care of your schooling and living situation so that you can just work to do what you want and save as well that's practical, but otherwise, not really.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: bosk1 on April 03, 2018, 10:57:51 AM
I don't know about the generation before mine, but with people in my age bracket, 20% down is basically unheard of. Several of the people I'm close with have bought homes since I bought my first 3.5 years ago, and none of us had anywhere close to 20% to put down. I put down 4%. The number of 25-30 year olds having $35K plus just sitting in savings for a down payment is pretty low.

Agreed. Our generation (I'm assuming we are around the same age, I'm 28) simply does not have that kind of money sitting around, it's very rare.

I don't think ANY generation had "that kind of money sitting around."  But the difference between us and our grandparents is that they knew how to sacrifice and save so that they eventually would have that kind of money for something they really wanted.  I think too many of us nowadays want to skip right over the "save and sacrifice" part and jump right to the "having money" part.  But it doesn't work like that.

Of course.  But notice that I said "save."  I didn't say "find money just sitting in your savings account."  Saving is "unheard of" for a lot of people because they don't make the effort to save.  And when I say "effort," I mean things like sacrificing eating out, going to the game, going on vacation, getting that new, cool "thing," or whatever.  If you save and sacrifice like nobody's business for 3-5 years, you should be able to come up with 20% in most markets.

Even if I made all the attempts in the world, the thought of saving 30,000 before age 30 would be nearly impossible. And part of it would come at a cost of paying the absolute minimum towards student loans and the like, which is barely really saving at that point. Frankly I don't know why anybody would want to save to that degree if it means a non-existent quality of life. Perhaps if you've got a well off family taking care of your schooling and living situation so that you can just work to do what you want and save as well that's practical, but otherwise, not really.

Then perhaps we are too wrapped up in "quality of life" at the expense of other things?  Personally, I find it much more valuable to sacrifice "quality of life" from age 20 to 30 to find oneself debt free in one's 20s, having their home paid off by mid-40s, and having a ton of money saved up to live off of and be generous with later in life.  I can tell you that, for me personally, I'd rather keep more of my money than pay interest to a bank because I'm in debt.  But to each their own.  I'm offering the best advice I can to the one who asked above.  Your mileage may vary.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: Grappler on April 03, 2018, 11:06:56 AM

Even if I made all the attempts in the world, the thought of saving 30,000 before age 30 would be nearly impossible. And part of it would come at a cost of paying the absolute minimum towards student loans and the like, which is barely really saving at that point. Frankly I don't know why anybody would want to save to that degree if it means a non-existent quality of life. Perhaps if you've got a well off family taking care of your schooling and living situation so that you can just work to do what you want and save as well that's practical, but otherwise, not really.

My wife and I did.  We had our car loans, her student loans, and our apartment rent, plus other expenses (gas, renters/auto insurance, cell phone bills, cable bill etc.) over our heads, and we were working our first jobs out of college, so we weren't' really making a ton of money yet.  We had a goal of getting married and buying a home, so we SAVED.  She diverted a portion of her paycheck to the savings account, so twice a month, it was automatically saved.  Our tax returns were not spent on junk each spring.  We would take about $1,500 max (usually less) and take a trip to the beach or Vegas, but the rest was put the bank and saved.  If we received money as a gift, it went into the bank.  I had a mutual fund that my mom had started for me, where I contributed money from the age of 22 to the age of 28 and doubled my contributed money over that time.  When the recession hit in 2008, Bush gave everyone $600 to "stimulate the economy" on their tax return.  Guess what I did?  I used that $600 to pay off my car loan.  I didn't go buy a tv.

Sure, we took a trip once a year, or ate out on occasion.  But we found a way to make things work for us.  We had an affordable apartment that was nice, but not too much money for us (i.e. I'm not keeping up with the Jonses and moving into the city to pay more money to rent an apartment just to say I live in "the city").  Having the dual income was tremendous, but it was up to both of us to not live so extravagantly.

We got married in May one year and in June we put 10% down on a $200,000 home.  So in three years, we had saved $26,000 for a home.

It is possible - but bosk is right.  You can't have EVERYTHING and expect to save.  We didn't have smartphones (iphones had just come out then), we didn't travel the world like my other college friends started doing, we lived within our means and put every dollar we could into saving...while still being able to enjoy our lives without going overboard. 

After 7 years of owning a home, we were able to refinance and had just enough equity to remove the PMI from our mortgage and get into a lower interest rate.  Now, with her quitting work to be a stay at home mom, we're back in the same boat - cutting back on the lifestyle and hobbies to ensure that we have enough money for our home and family's necessities.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: Stadler on April 03, 2018, 11:16:52 AM
No judgment here - I certainly don't have the discipline I wish I did when  it came to this stuff - but times are different.  I'm 50.  When I was 22, and fresh out of school, I had a car payment, car insurance, a rent payment, utilities, and that's it.  No subscriptions, no cell phones, no Spotify, no massive cable bill, no internet, no security system, no Sirius Satellite Radio...  I think we lose sight of how quickly "$14.99 a month" adds up to suck a ton of money out of our shorts every month. 
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: bosk1 on April 03, 2018, 11:27:34 AM
No judgment here - I certainly don't have the discipline I wish I did when  it came to this stuff - but times are different.  I'm 50.  When I was 22, and fresh out of school, I had a car payment, car insurance, a rent payment, utilities, and that's it.  No subscriptions, no cell phones, no Spotify, no massive cable bill, no internet, no security system, no Sirius Satellite Radio...  I think we lose sight of how quickly "$14.99 a month" adds up to suck a ton of money out of our shorts every month. 

Well, sure.  But a lot of those things you mention can be eliminated.  And, with all due respect, when one is younger is exactly the time to build that discipline.  Rather than having a car payment at 22, for example, one can instead pay cash for a beater that looks like garbage but runs and gets you from point A to point B.  An extra part time job in the evenings for 3-6 months will get you a car, which saves you that $300-$400 (or whatever) car payment every month (and probably lowers the insurance significantly to boot).  And other than cell phone and Internet, none of those other items you mention are essential either.  Again, it's all about prioritizing what you want.  But even if one isn't saving for a house, I would still submit that learning financial discipline as young as possible is incredibly valuable and leads to a lot more financial opportunities later.  I wish I had done better at it when I was younger, because although I think we are doing pretty well right now, we could be miles ahead if we had had some better advice and applied ourselves a bit differently.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: kaos2900 on April 03, 2018, 11:29:08 AM
We ended up with 14 showings and got 7 offers. We ended up accepting an offer that was originally asking price with an escalating clause where they would beat any bid by $1000 up to $12k more than asking price, no closing costs, and an informational only home inspection. We ended up getting $9k more than asking price.  :metal
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: bosk1 on April 03, 2018, 11:29:57 AM
Nice!  Congrats!
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: Chino on April 03, 2018, 11:32:56 AM
We ended up with 14 showings and got 7 offers. We ended up accepting an offer that was originally asking price with an escalating clause where they would beat any bid by $1000 up to $12k more than asking price, no closing costs, and an informational only home inspection. We ended up getting $9k more than asking price.  :metal

Damn. Nice. We have houses in our neighborhood that have been completely remodeled and have still been sitting on the market for the better part of a year now.  I envy you.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: lordxizor on April 03, 2018, 01:49:06 PM
We could probably walk away netting $50-60k after only 3 years in the house. But rental prices are high right now too so it's likely not worth it.

We're in the exact same spot as far as the amount of equity we have in our home....although we've been there 4 years. We contemplated a move, maybe a downsize but with three growing boys it just didn't seem logical. We just feel blessed that we're even in the position that we're in so we will call it even. We bought this house with the intention of staying here until at least the boys graduating high school...maybe longer, so we're gonna resist the temptation....put some effort into our house as far as yard work etc. and ride it out.

We're in a pretty similar boat. We bought our home because it was a home we could stay in for 20 years. Not that we necessarily want to but it would work for our family (3 young boys) as they grow up. Our mortgage is affordable based on my current income, though I'd love my monthly payment to be less. In retrospect i wish we had spend $50k less, but there's nothing I can do about that now. The house we should have bought 3 years ago costs as much as the house we have now and with interest rates being at least 1% higher, we'd have to downgrade a ton to save any money. I don't look at my home as an investment (though it is to some degree, we've had those discussions previously in this thread). It's a place for my family to live that offers a level of stability that renting is unlikely to offer.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: gmillerdrake on April 03, 2018, 04:45:44 PM
We could probably walk away netting $50-60k after only 3 years in the house. But rental prices are high right now too so it's likely not worth it.

We're in the exact same spot as far as the amount of equity we have in our home....although we've been there 4 years. We contemplated a move, maybe a downsize but with three growing boys it just didn't seem logical. We just feel blessed that we're even in the position that we're in so we will call it even. We bought this house with the intention of staying here until at least the boys graduating high school...maybe longer, so we're gonna resist the temptation....put some effort into our house as far as yard work etc. and ride it out.

We're in a pretty similar boat. We bought our home because it was a home we could stay in for 20 years. Not that we necessarily want to but it would work for our family (3 young boys) as they grow up. Our mortgage is affordable based on my current income, though I'd love my monthly payment to be less. In retrospect i wish we had spend $50k less, but there's nothing I can do about that now. The house we should have bought 3 years ago costs as much as the house we have now and with interest rates being at least 1% higher, we'd have to downgrade a ton to save any money. I don't look at my home as an investment (though it is to some degree, we've had those discussions previously in this thread). It's a place for my family to live that offers a level of stability that renting is unlikely to offer.

 :lol    Thatís our same situation. We can afford our house/lifestyle but looking back weíve both admitted we should have been a tad more patient. A house $40-50k Cheaper would work just fine as well.

We got swept away because we were building a home. So, we opted for the largest floor plan with less bells and whistles. But anyway....as I said, we feel fortunate to be where weíre at and have what we have. Itís all easier to see when you look back on it.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: Phoenix87x on April 04, 2018, 04:25:38 PM
Oh damn. My neighbors are going at it. This is crazy.

I am on the 3rd floor and my neighbors pipe apparently has broke and its draining/spraying down into the person's place below her. So the sprayed person was banging on the door of the sprayer and freaking the fuk out. And now they are going at it. Damn

Apparently the sprayer just turned off the valve and the plumber is on the way, but they are both freaking out. Its quite a show
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: jasc15 on April 05, 2018, 10:52:47 AM
My wife and I are fortunate to have higher than median household income for our area, and we bought a house below median price, so even with high property taxes we are not swamped with the house payment.  To me, however, I don't see how the median house is affordable with the median household income around here.  Our utility bill isn't much different from when we rented a 2 bedroom apartment, and we haven't added any other recurring expenses since buying.

We have had our fair share of stress in the 5 months since we moved in.  With the single digit temperatures this winter, we had a few instances of frozen pipes and water leaking into the basement from the kitchen drain.  It wasn't that obvious at first, though.  We noticed water seeping up between 2 of the floor boards in the kitchen, far from any pipes.  It was a mystery that it still unsolved, since we had a plumber come twice to look at it with no real idea what the problem was.  What I will do this spring/summer is to get access to those pipes (which are covered by the only part of the basement ceiling that is finished) and put some heat tape on them with a thermostat control.

We also need to replace our main electrical panel and service cable from the exterior.  We knew this before we purchased, but underestimated the cost.  Every electrician is recommending upgrading to 200 amp service, which i think is totally unnecessary for our 1000 sq ft 2 bedroom ranch, however the price difference is about $500 on a $2500 job.  The biggest potential load would be central AC, which itself can run on a 30 amp circuit I think.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: gmillerdrake on May 25, 2018, 09:40:56 AM
This will be a long post, but wanted to show what I've been up to this spring. We've been on a mission since last Fall to transform our backyard. So, starting last September-ish we had a paito installed...I posted back then but this is what we had before:

(https://i.imgur.com/ElN5kET.jpg)

then we installed the patio:

(https://i.imgur.com/818qTb2.jpg)



So this spring I added some landscaping around that patio....very simple stuff but it enhanced it a bit:  (you can see the planter boxes I build as well for our back of the house windows..added planters to the patio also)

(https://i.imgur.com/S59ykOF.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/48mGG15.jpg)



So....with that portion out of the way there was something that I had wanted to do ever since we moved in. In the picture below (taken 4 years ago) you can kind of see in the bottom right corner where there is a natural rock face....this is where they had chiseled out the rock face to install a storm drain that runs down the back of all our properties. You can also see in that pic how the rock kind of peeks out every now and then along that ridge line. I was convinced that the rock face ran along that ridge line and that it was just backfilled after they installed the storm drain.

(https://i.imgur.com/0hawktD.jpg)

So, Fast Forward 4 years and I remained convinced I could reclaim that portion of my yard which was a small hill.....that I could dig out to the rock face and have a deeper..flatter yard.

Here's the back yard which show the small hill...early this spring (late winter)

(https://i.imgur.com/DPDgxNo.jpg)

You can see in this pic I started carving a bit at the top of the hill to see what all was under that dirt.

(https://i.imgur.com/5bVVJ2T.jpg)

A couple hours in and this is what I uncovered:

(https://i.imgur.com/qL9reXA.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/9cx8Y90.jpg)


So, I thought to myself maybe I just expose the top line of rock and then put a small knee high landscape wall at the bottom of the hill and then landscape/plant all the area between the two. The guy I know who built my patio has an area on his property he calls 'the brick yard' and he told me some time ago that I could use whatever materials I wanted out of there because it's all old stock that he can't use anymore. It's all surplus from old jobs that really isn't enough to start a new one. So, my dad and I went out one day and picked up some nice blocks that otherwise would have probably cost me $3 or $4 bucks a piece at least....these were free:

(https://i.imgur.com/B38jfgw.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/ai9yr5m.jpg)

So I started to dig and carve into the hill a bit....you can see how I thought maybe I'd thrown the wall in and then expose the top rock and landscape in between. BUT....this small strip of digging took me 6 hours and was a pain in the butt!!!!

(https://i.imgur.com/FXIWqSk.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/XIYTYAx.jpg)

So, I got to talking about this with the Son (and guy who actually installed the patio for us last year) and he told me that he was about to renovate his house and needed the construction documents drawn up. I, worked as an architectural draftsman for 7 years...so, he proposed we trade some drawing for some excavation work. Done deal. Moving dirt by shovel, pick and wheel barrel sucks.

He asked me what I wanted to do and I told him my real desire was to dig out all the dirt back and see if that rock face extended all along the back of our property or not. He said he was game....so.....

(https://i.imgur.com/NywdWHe.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/ByyMHck.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/BHnFUfY.jpg)

In (4) short hours he turned that hill into this:


(https://i.imgur.com/2AuFXEh.jpg)

They had just back filled with all the rock that was left over after they installed the storm drain....as I suspected. We used a lot of those large chunks to form a neat little wall and to create a burm on the hill side that was angled to the storm drain in my back yard.

Even after he had did the bulk of the work with the bobcat I ended up wheel barreling (15) loads of small chunks and dumped them into a creek behind my neighbors house. Then I power washed the rock face and started the process of getting it shaped up:

(https://i.imgur.com/eVTffAm.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/xXsSAPQ.jpg)


Did some prep work on the dirt to install sod and seeded the top of the hill with grass and wild flower seed:

(https://i.imgur.com/6KZZNjV.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/awxgYye.jpg)

Notice in that pic ^^^^ that I had moved all of the blocks Clark had given me to the top of the rock face. I still had a plan for those. I still made a small knee high wall about 5 foot back from the rock face front. I also used some of the natural stone we unearthed to create a border at the base of the wall.

(https://i.imgur.com/Td13ru4.jpg)

So then 'all' that was left was to get some mulch and spruce it up. I have plans to plant the upper tier mulched area....probably going to go with perennial grasses and easier to maintain plants like that. Ones that will get some height. Anything behind that small wall I've blasted with wild flower seed and plan to just let that and the burm return to natural state. I planted some Hastas under the trees because it's shady over there but the base of the wall I'm just going to pick a full sun ground cover plant and let it take over. I've stuck a couple ivy sprouts in a couple of the water run off cracks in the wall that have dirt in them....but I know it'll be a season or two before I get the foliage to where I want it. But, here's where I stand today. I can't tell you how satisfying it is to have this more or less done after (4) years of dreaming about it.


(https://i.imgur.com/Dz5EZXX.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/XfAO3AU.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/K9xu23t.jpg)

This is the area that was already chiseled out....I built the base up a bit to add dirt and mulch to plant:

(https://i.imgur.com/Ne1cuiV.jpg)


Pic taken this morning:

(https://i.imgur.com/PUJfQLv.jpg)



There you have it.....my spring time project  :lol    Sorry for the long post but wanted to share with you all....I'm just really excited about it   :biggrin:








Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: lordxizor on May 25, 2018, 09:52:30 AM
Looks awesome!

I had to shell out $10k yesterday on a new AC and furnace. The old ones were original to our 27 year old house, so I knew the end was nearing, but I was hoping to get a couple more years out of them. Especially since I just spent almost all of the money I had saved for house stuff upgrading the exterior after a hailstorm. Happens just in time for a mid-90s temp long weekend too. Can't get the new one installed until Wednesday so we get to sweat it out.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: jingle.boy on May 25, 2018, 10:41:22 AM
That's f'n awesome Gary.  So nice to have a bit of an oasis to enjoy when the weather allows.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: gmillerdrake on May 25, 2018, 10:50:54 AM
Looks awesome!

That's f'n awesome Gary.  So nice to have a bit of an oasis to enjoy when the weather allows.

Thanks  :tup

A couple of our neighbors chose to finish their basements....we're still holding off on that for a while. We really wanted that outdoor space and it's been great so far. The 'grand' plan is to turn our covered patio into a Four Seasons room....but that'll have to wait a bit.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: Podaar on May 25, 2018, 10:53:51 AM
Very, very nice, Gary! I'm looking forward to the photos of the area filled with plants.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: gmillerdrake on May 25, 2018, 10:59:23 AM
Very, very nice, Gary! I'm looking forward to the photos of the area filled with plants.

You and me both  :lol   I never realized how expensive planting and landscaping could get. Between the new window planters, changing some things up in the front patio area and the new area around the patio....then the area by the trees.....I've spent a small fortune on plants already.

Gonna be a bit before I can spend $$ on planting up top of the rock face. Probably fall.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: Cool Chris on May 25, 2018, 11:23:17 AM
Amazing! My house is on a super small lot, and my backyard isn't much bigger than a postage stamp, but just having that little oasis (as jingle put it) is worth every penny we have spent on it over the years.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: Stadler on May 25, 2018, 12:26:05 PM
Here's one for you:  right before we bought the house we're in (August, 2015) we were thisclose to making an offer on another house that happens to be about 0.5 away (about half that as the crow flies).  But someone beat us to the punch.     Well!   It's on the market again.   Don't know if there are issues or not, but it's for sale, at the exact price it sold for back in July/August 2015.

Too soon to consider? 
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: Podaar on May 25, 2018, 01:01:16 PM
Whoa, that's tough Stadler. My guess would be that it probably doesn't make a lot of financial sense. Still, I think if I were in your situation it would boil down to how much more you like the other house.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: ReaperKK on May 25, 2018, 06:56:38 PM
That is awesome! I finally babied our yard into somewhat of presentable shape. We are hoping to tackle the screened in porch soon.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: cramx3 on May 28, 2018, 04:13:14 PM
Wow Gary that looks pretty cool and really amazing how you did that
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: gmillerdrake on May 28, 2018, 05:53:46 PM
Wow Gary that looks pretty cool and really amazing how you did that

 :tup Thank you Sir!
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: Implode on May 30, 2018, 07:47:15 AM
That's awesome! Now that I own a home, albeit just a townhome, I totally understand why so many people love doing improvement projects. Now every time I go into a hardware store, I want to buy and do everything.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: gmillerdrake on June 01, 2018, 08:29:34 AM
So....ummm......yeah.......


(https://i.imgur.com/x6665ti.jpg)



Been a bit of a whirlwind at the Miller household. Our decision to sell boils down to we really want to get our kiddos into the same school district my wife teaches in. We could send them there now given she's a teacher there  but the transport would be all on us and logistically it's near impossible given start times of the middle and elementary schools...work schedules etc. So we're gonna look for a home in her district which would be ideal. If nothing there then there is a really good district called 'Lindbergh' that we're going to target as well. Not that we dislike where the boys are at now but you always want the best for your kids and there's room for improvement.

Downsize...downsize....downsize. We LOVE this house we built. Really a 'dream' house but we've been going back and forth about do we really need a house this big? Cleaning it alone is a chore (3200 s.f.) then throw in utility costs of dual AC units....etc etc, we got to thinking about what was essential. We're looking to knock it down a notch to maybe 2000-2200 sf....have a nice rec room or finished basement dedicated to the three growing boys but other than that just have the essentials.

It kills me to leave the backyard oasis we created....it's really a relaxing area and I personally put a lot of work into it but I can make something like that wherever we land. Doing the work is most of the fun anyway. We've become great friends with a lot of our neighbors so that's always tough to leave but I know there are a couple of them we will stay in touch with and you can't base decisions that affect your family off of 'emotional' connections like that.

But another factor is financial. Our subdivision is completely built out now and yet still very desired to get into. There have been a few homes go on sale that are selling quick and for a pretty good price. It's really a sellers market right now in St. Louis. We had a few realtors come by and interviewed them and ran numbers and what not and bottom line is even after paying commissions and closing costs.....if we get what we list for.....we'd be taking home right around $100-105k. That's just impossible to ignore. We feel like the time is right to cash in on the equity in our home and re-invest it in another property.

That type of equity to then throw down on the next house we buy could potentially get us into a 15 year loan....or we're really liking the idea of lowering our mortgage payment and socking some $$ away giving us a bit more 'freedom' financially. We're also tinkering with the notion of maybe building again as there is a small (38) lot subdivision being built right now directly across from the High School in the district my wife teaches in....but we don't want to get too carried away because building can get a bit expensive. so we're going to meet with that builder today to run through some floor plan options on a smaller Ranch style house to see if it jives with our budget or not.

It's freaking crazy, but honestly we've talked about moving a few times over the past year or two and finally after seeing what this last house that sold in our subdivisions sold for it kind of prompted us to either  :censored or get off the pot.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: kaos2900 on June 01, 2018, 09:28:58 AM
Good luck! The time to sell is as good as it's going to be for the foreseeable future. It is a sellers market for sure and that is starting to change with the increase in interest rates but my realtor thinks it will stay hot for at least another year. I think I posted that we sold our house in 12 hours and got almost 10 grand more than we were asking. We're moving into a much larger house and I don't plan on moving again for at least another 15-20 years. The equity we're getting is going to allow us to pay off a carand pretty much furnish the whole house so we're set up pretty good for awhile.

Actually, we move in 10 days! We have been waiting for almost 6 months since we "bought" our new home. Exciting times for us though I forgot how much moving sucks.

I was actually to ask how much your patio construction cost. There is an old and small deck on the new home and we want to tear that down and just extend the patio. We had a huge deck on our current home and while it was nice the upkeep was atrocious.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: lordxizor on June 01, 2018, 09:34:50 AM
We're considering the some thing, though not terribly seriously. We could probably sell our place for $100k more than we owe. We recently got a new roof and siding due to a hailstorm so that adds to the value. Th problem is that we don't have a clear idea of what we would do instead. I'd like to get a little less house, but prices and interest rates have both gone up so it's unlikely we'd be able to save any money. So we'll likely stick it out, but I think about at least once a week.

Good luck with the selling process! Enjoy that backyard while you can.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: gmillerdrake on June 01, 2018, 09:41:03 AM
I was actually to ask how much your patio construction cost. There is an old and small deck on the new home and we want to tear that down and just extend the patio. We had a huge deck on our current home and while it was nice the upkeep was atrocious.

Well...we were very fortunate on that. I had a lifelong friend who's father in law and brother in law are brick masons. They primarily do Brick work on commercial buildings but have installed a handful of patios and landscape walls here and there. They cut me a great deal when they had a crew in between jobs last fall. I paid (3) guys $1000 cash each for three days of work....then had to buy the materials at cost which was $6200. So, $9200 in total. BUT I had gotten a quote from a local landscaping company prior to learning Clark and Ben could do it for me and was quoted $17,500. So I saved a significant amount of money....we were super blessed on that one.

And the rock wall excavation was a 'trade' of services. Ben came back and did that work (about 4 hours) for me and I drafted up and prepared a set of construction documents for his house renovation. Took me about 10-12 hours of time to do.

Anyway....that patio work seems to be pretty involved as far as prepping the area and all the substrate that goes down before hand. A lot of manual labor involved. Can get expensive. But keep in mind the patio I had quoted is 25' long by 19' wide with those half walls and fire pit. there's a lot of material there.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: gmillerdrake on June 01, 2018, 09:43:43 AM
We're considering the some thing, though not terribly seriously. We could probably sell our place for $100k more than we owe. We recently got a new roof and siding due to a hailstorm so that adds to the value. Th problem is that we don't have a clear idea of what we would do instead. I'd like to get a little less house, but prices and interest rates have both gone up so it's unlikely we'd be able to save any money. So we'll likely stick it out, but I think about at least once a week.

Good luck with the selling process! Enjoy that backyard while you can.

Thanks. Like I said....we talked about it a few times and finally just said 'lets go for it'. You only live once and I don't think we're risking all that much. Worse case scenario I end up with the same house payment in a bit smaller house without my backyard oasis..... :lol   
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: jingle.boy on June 01, 2018, 12:40:52 PM
If you can afford it, keep making the same payments, and shorten your loan amortization.  When interest rates crashed a number of years ago, we refinanced and took 5 years off the amortization period.  There's nothing like being mortgage free - especially before the kids hit post-secondary.

Good luck pal.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: cramx3 on June 01, 2018, 02:05:16 PM
Well if you think it's the best decision than go for it!  It's definitely a good time to sell if it's something you want to do.  Making a 100k profit sounds really nice too.  I just moved my gf out of her apartment wednesday and must say that moving totally sucks, but if I saw 100k dingling in front me, moving doesn't sound so bad then.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: Phoenix87x on June 01, 2018, 08:38:39 PM

Downsize...downsize....downsize. We LOVE this house we built. Really a 'dream' house but we've been going back and forth about do we really need a house this big? Cleaning it alone is a chore (3200 s.f.) then throw in utility costs of dual AC units....etc etc, we got to thinking about what was essential. We're looking to knock it down a notch to maybe 2000-2200 sf....have a nice rec room or finished basement dedicated to the three growing boys but other than that just have the essentials.


You are talking my language. Growing up, I don't know why I was so anxious to try and buy some big house when I grew up, but I'm glad I didn't.

I have a 1 bedroom condo. Its amazingly comfortable and easy to take care of and has everything I need. $90,000 in a nice area and I put $20,000 down so my monthly expenses are super low:

Mortgage is $425
HOA Fee is $275   (which includes heat, water, trash, lawn care)
Electricity is $21

So yeah, Its great to downsize and I love living the minimalist lifestyle. Its nice to not have to live paycheck to paycheck and just use the extra cash to do fun things or save for retirement.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: millahh on June 02, 2018, 08:24:45 PM
That was about the last thing I expected Gary to post...but, good on you guys for being decisive, and for the quantitative/unemotional decision making.

So we're realizing that we don't know shit about landscaping, identifying/maintaining decorative plants, etc.  Any of you folks have a good place you could recommend to start?  Just today realized that we've been mowing over a few strawberry plants, and have like three different species of wild onion growing around the yard....
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: kingshmegland on June 02, 2018, 08:36:35 PM
Well, now you know two spots not to now anymore.   Lol


Map out your yard. It allows you to explore your yard and map out what you want to do.  I've told my wife, "Get it right or I mow over it".
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: ReaperKK on June 03, 2018, 12:43:22 PM
Wow thatís a lot to take home money wise!

Whatís funny is my gf and I built a house a couple years ago and it was our dream house. Similar story to you, 3000sq ft brand new home and we did it because our mortgage is so much cheaper than our apartment (we were renting downtown for $2200 a month and our mortgage now is $1700 (all in with taxes, insurance)). Now we are thinking of getting a smaller house with more privacy on a lake. Itís crazy but there are rooms in my house I havenít been in over a month.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: cramx3 on June 03, 2018, 01:45:48 PM
My mom always says things like "dont you want to live in a huge house some day?" like it is some status symbol or that it's such a life of luxury, but I always say no.  Not unless I become so rich that the maintenance costs are an afterthought.  I just don't need the space nor do I want to take care of all that space.  I have a 1000 sq ft house with a nice front/back yard and a man cave.  I don't need anything more nor do I want anything more. 

Anyway, my next door neighbor's house is on the market and it's got a really high price.  Hoping it sells that high (100k more than what I bought my house for).
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: ReaperKK on June 03, 2018, 06:05:31 PM
I think I had a little bit of that growing up. We were pretty poor growing up so I had to share a room with my little brother until I moved away to college. It sort of became a personal goal to have a large house as it was a sign of success to me, funny how that changes. I spend 40% of my time at home in my office, 40% of my time in the kitchen 20% sleeping.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: lordxizor on June 04, 2018, 06:34:09 AM
Owning a big house is the traditional American dream especially for the baby boomer generation. I think the younger folks (30s and under) are finally seeing that this is not always the best move for everyone and owning more modest homes or even (gasp!) renting long term is better for a lot of people. Buying less than you can afford is much better move financially long term that buying a big beautiful house and stretching yourself.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: gmillerdrake on June 04, 2018, 07:38:26 AM
That was about the last thing I expected Gary to post...

 :lol   You and me both. It was the culmination of multiple variables just colliding all at once. Couldn't be more at peace with it than we are right now...it actually feels like a relief as I thinks it's something we've both been leaning towards wanting to do but were reluctant to just go for it. Just praying we can sell quickly so we can get the kiddos school situation clarified.

So we're realizing that we don't know shit about landscaping, identifying/maintaining decorative plants, etc.  Any of you folks have a good place you could recommend to start?  Just today realized that we've been mowing over a few strawberry plants, and have like three different species of wild onion growing around the yard....

I'm far from a pro but I stick to planting all perennial plants. They'll come back year after year which is nice. The way I chose mine was really color and size. Just threw things together that 'looked' like they went well next to each other and all in all it's turned out pretty well. Just be careful with ground cover plants because those things do what they say they will. Those ground cover species really go gang busters and can take over an area.

Wow thatís a lot to take home money wise!

Whatís funny is my gf and I built a house a couple years ago and it was our dream house. Similar story to you, 3000sq ft brand new home and we did it because our mortgage is so much cheaper than our apartment (we were renting downtown for $2200 a month and our mortgage now is $1700 (all in with taxes, insurance)). Now we are thinking of getting a smaller house with more privacy on a lake. Itís crazy but there are rooms in my house I havenít been in over a month.

Anything we make is going straight towards the next mortgage. Lowering our monthly bill is a primary goal and with that type of equity we'll be getting back and the types of homes we're looking at we should be able to save $300-400 a month from what we're paying now.

We did the same thing when building 4 years ago. Really got swept away in the process and just built the 'dream' scenario. Then, like you mentioned.....you realize that you really don't use 1/4 of your house, like ever. It's such a waste of $$ and space.

I like the idea of the boys each having their own rooms but it's not necessarily an immediate priority in our next house. My brother and I shared a room until I was 16 and our youngest two have already volunteered to share a room in the next house if they have to. Shoot...on any given night in our house now they're all sleeping in the same room with mattresses thrown on the floor. We definitely need/want the house to have a space for them to play. We have a loft area now that is their 'spot' where they play their PS4 or just hang out when buddies are over so a finished basement or similar loft area is a must in the next home. Other than that.....we are really just looking to be practical.

I think I had a little bit of that growing up. We were pretty poor growing up so I had to share a room with my little brother until I moved away to college. It sort of became a personal goal to have a large house as it was a sign of success to me, funny how that changes.

This is totally me. I wouldn't say we were super poor but we definitely weren't wealthy. We never 'wanted' for anything as my parents always found a way for us to have things but we were certainly not rolling in $$. So, I think subconsciously somewhere attaining that 'big' house became a goal just to 'prove' that I had 'made it'. That along with the 'American Dream' that lordxizor spoke about just felt like we should build this big house. It was such a deviation from what we set out to do when we sold our house 4 years ago....but like I said, we really did get swept away once we realized that we 'could' build this house if we wanted to. Never stopping to think if we 'should'....if it was truly the right decision.

But we did and I'm not one to dwell on decisions....once they are made I just work with that set of circumstances and we could theoretically stay in this house the next 20 years and be perfectly fine. But, we both know that's not what's best for our family right now.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: Podaar on June 04, 2018, 08:26:49 AM
I'm still pissed that I won't be able to see the oasis full of lush plants. :getoffmylawn: Rationalize it any way you want, Gary. Your still a disappointment.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: kingshmegland on June 04, 2018, 08:35:23 AM
I'm a garden widow until fall right now.  The Queen lives in her sanctuaries unless it rains.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: gmillerdrake on June 04, 2018, 08:39:23 AM
I'm still pissed that I won't be able to see the oasis full of lush plants. :getoffmylawn: Rationalize it any way you want, Gary. Your still a disappointment.

I know...I know....Believe me, that back yard is the only thing that makes me any bit sad about leaving this house. From the patio to that natural rock wall, it's EXACTLY how I envisioned it would look and it's 'this' close to being finished. It's a bummer to leave something that you worked hard making but I'll create something better at the next house.  ;)
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: cramx3 on June 04, 2018, 08:43:43 AM
I'm still pissed that I won't be able to see the oasis full of lush plants. :getoffmylawn: Rationalize it any way you want, Gary. Your still a disappointment.

I know...I know....Believe me, that back yard is the only thing that makes me any bit sad about leaving this house. From the patio to that natural rock wall, it's EXACTLY how I envisioned it would look and it's 'this' close to being finished. It's a bummer to leave something that you worked hard making but I'll create something better at the next house.  ;)

You could also use what you did as a learning experience and do something even cooler for your next home.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: gmillerdrake on June 04, 2018, 08:48:46 AM
I'm still pissed that I won't be able to see the oasis full of lush plants. :getoffmylawn: Rationalize it any way you want, Gary. Your still a disappointment.

I know...I know....Believe me, that back yard is the only thing that makes me any bit sad about leaving this house. From the patio to that natural rock wall, it's EXACTLY how I envisioned it would look and it's 'this' close to being finished. It's a bummer to leave something that you worked hard making but I'll create something better at the next house.  ;)

You could also use what you did as a learning experience and do something even cooler for your next home.

very true. Already know that while it's great and all and we love it.....a 25' long x 20' wide patio is a bit excessive. When I drew it up on CAD it looked like a good fit for that corner of the house but after seeing it built I could have trimmed that down a hair and saved some $$ and yard space and still had a killer patio.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: Grappler on June 05, 2018, 07:56:35 AM
9pm last night, after wife, 3-year old and 7-month old are asleep:   Garage door opener control pad starts beeping intermittently with flashing lights. 

Kid's bedrooms are directly above the garage, so I don't want to mess with it too much and wake them up.  So I disconnect the control pad to keep the beeping from continuing and waking them up and research via google (garage door installation company left me with no instructions for the pad).  Google results make me believe that the control pad went kaput, but remotes in the cars will still work.  Don't want to test and wake kids up.

5am - leaving for work....remotes in cars do not open the garage.  Unplug/replug opener.  Lights go on.  Door will not open.   >:(

Hastily disengage door and fight to get it up (I have a side-mounted opener and had to hold the pull handle down with one hand and try to lift the door with a combination of my other hand and a foot, all while dressed for work)  Race to catch the train to work.  Thankfully the garage door company will send someone out this afternoon - worse case will be replacing the entire opener, which I think was about $500 for this model.  Ugh.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: gmillerdrake on June 05, 2018, 08:07:13 AM
^^^^^ Nothing worse than when technology fails....and it's a system that you know little about. Like, you rely on it to work all the time. Automatic Garage door openers are one of them. Probably a 'simple' fix but it's something you/we NEVER really have to fix and when it goes out you're like 'WTF?'
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: Grappler on June 05, 2018, 07:06:35 PM
$140 for repairs/maintenance.  The control pad broke down and the tech said it's a common problem (also per my fabulous google searches).  So he replaced it.  I saw last night that the control pad is around $50, so we paid for a bit of labor too.  At least the guy did some maintenance on the rails too.  I just don't have the time right now to futz around with buying a pad on my own and installing it to hope that it works.

At least it's fixed!
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: gmillerdrake on June 05, 2018, 08:20:51 PM
Nothing like dropping a quick $140....geez. Just to make you feel a bit better, our microwave made an interesting Ďpopí noise a couple nights ago then would not heat anything. Just made a really cool noise almost grinding noise yet it was electrical in nature like it  was going to detonate at any moment.

I stopped by the appliance store we bought it from 4 years ago and asked his opinion on who was best to call for repair. He told me....I called them. Itíd have been $130 just to get them to my house....minimum 1 hour labor @ $125 on top of whatever the part/parts theyíd have to order.  :omg:

I went back and talked to the manager of the store and he said a new one was $275 before tax (itís part of the Frigidaire Gallery Series Kitchen Appliance Set) so I just ordered a new one. Picking it up tomorrow.

You gotta love those random, unexpected costs of owning a home.  :tup

Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: jingle.boy on June 05, 2018, 08:36:17 PM
Appliance quality ain't what it used to be.  That said, mrs.jingle and I are still on the same microwave we got when we first moved in together 20 years ago!!
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: gmillerdrake on June 05, 2018, 11:02:30 PM
Appliance quality ain't what it used to be.  That said, mrs.jingle and I are still on the same microwave we got when we first moved in together 20 years ago!!

Things like that are intentionally built to break.  Itís one of the things I detest about a consumerism society.....nothing is built to last anymore itís all built to stop working after a few short years so you Ďhaveí to buy another new one.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: lordxizor on June 06, 2018, 06:08:12 AM
In all fairness to the appliance manufacturers, if consumers demanded high quality and were willing to pay more for it, they would provide it. As a society, we are always looking for the cheapest cost for everything, usually at the expense of quality. We aren't willing to pay $1000 for a microwave that will last 30 years. We'd rather pay $300 for one that will last 5-8 years. We like to bitch about companies no longer providing quality like they used to, but it's our own damn fault they do it.

For me a huge part of it is the insane cost of repairs. When it's over $100 just for them to walk in the door it quickly becomes not worth trying to repair anything anymore.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: jingle.boy on June 06, 2018, 06:33:59 AM
I call bullshit on that.  The technology advancements reduce costs; manufacturing process improvements reduct costs; supply chain efficiencies reduce costs.  That 20-year old microwave I own cost me only a few hun back in 1998.  Appliances that my parents bought in the 70s wouldn't have cost multiple thousands - probably the same $1500-$2000 for a fridge, or $500-$1000 for a dishwasher.  I've gone thru 2 stoves, 3 diswhashers, 3 coffee makers, 2 toaster ovens, and 2 fridges in the last 16 years I've lived in my current house.  I can't believe that is anything but planned obsolescence.

We pay about the same for lower quality shit these days.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: kingshmegland on June 06, 2018, 06:37:01 AM
I'm getting a new Fridge and stove delivered Saturday.  First set We've bought since moving into our house 14 years ago.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: jingle.boy on June 06, 2018, 06:43:46 AM
I'm getting a new Fridge and stove delivered Saturday.  First set We've bought since moving into our house 14 years ago.

Start saving... you'll be buying again in 5-ish years.   :biggrin:
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: lordxizor on June 06, 2018, 06:44:05 AM
I call bullshit on that.  The technology advancements reduce costs; manufacturing process improvements reduct costs; supply chain efficiencies reduce costs.  That 20-year old microwave I own cost me only a few hun back in 1998.  Appliances that my parents bought in the 70s wouldn't have cost multiple thousands - probably the same $1500-$2000 for a fridge, or $500-$1000 for a dishwasher.  I've gone thru 2 stoves, 3 diswhashers, 3 coffee makers, 2 toaster ovens, and 2 fridges in the last 16 years I've lived in my current house.  I can't believe that is anything but planned obsolescence.

We pay about the same for lower quality shit these days.
Not sure if your numbers are inflation adjusted, but you can't forget about that. A $1000 refrigerator in 1970 would cost $6000 today and not many people are spending that much for a refrigerator.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: kingshmegland on June 06, 2018, 06:45:53 AM
I'm getting a new Fridge and stove delivered Saturday.  First set We've bought since moving into our house 14 years ago.

Start saving... you'll be buying again in 5-ish years.   :biggrin:

Kenmore has never done me wrong.......so far.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: kingshmegland on June 06, 2018, 06:47:11 AM
My parents fridge in 1977 cost $359.

Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: lordxizor on June 06, 2018, 06:58:19 AM
Planned obsolescence is certainly part of the problem, but I think that is in large part driven by the consumer. Though there is definitely some corporate greed at play.

A $359 fridge in 1970 would cost over $2000 today, which is not out of the question, but there are tons of fridges for well less than that and I'm guess they sell very well.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: kingshmegland on June 06, 2018, 07:17:04 AM
Oh and there are models out there that do cost that.  SS bodies, with ice and water dispensers.  I got no frills on mine.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: jingle.boy on June 06, 2018, 07:27:47 AM
http://www.usinflationcalculator.com/  -  $359 in 1977 = $1,488 today.

As I said, we're paying about the same today (inflation adjusted) for lesser quality (by-and-large).
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: Podaar on June 06, 2018, 07:29:25 AM
I've gone thru 2 stoves, 3 diswhashers, 3 coffee makers, 2 toaster ovens, and 2 fridges in the last 16 years I've lived in my current house.  I can't believe that is anything but planned obsolescence.

Have you ever thought it might be you? Sounds to me like you need to open your check book and buy better quality appliances!


I call bullshit on that.  The technology advancements reduce costs; manufacturing process improvements reduct costs; supply chain efficiencies reduce costs. 

To a point and not indefinitely. The greatest gains in these areas were during the 1990s. Diminishing returns now, unless they move the plant to Singapore, of course.

You want appliances that are built to last and perhaps even become family heirlooms?  Don't buy the least expensive model at the most affordable store.

BTW, Sears has never been a manufacturer of appliances. Everything that has ever worn the label Kenmore, Hotspot or Coldspot is simply another companies product private labeled to Sears. What you're really getting is a Whirlpool, GE or Fridgidare depending on the appliance.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: jingle.boy on June 06, 2018, 07:39:28 AM
I've gone thru 2 stoves, 3 diswhashers, 3 coffee makers, 2 toaster ovens, and 2 fridges in the last 16 years I've lived in my current house.  I can't believe that is anything but planned obsolescence.

Have you ever thought it might be you? Sounds to me like you need to open your check book and buy better quality appliances!

I'll assume you forgot to put that in green font.  ;)  I always go with Consumers Reports highly rated appliances / best value for money.  Last month, our 2-year old coffee maker (Cuisinart - $200... 2nd time we had that model already) just refused to start the brewing cycle.  I buy middle / top shelf precisely because I don't want to be regularly replacing big ticket items.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: kingshmegland on June 06, 2018, 08:05:01 AM
I've gone thru 2 stoves, 3 diswhashers, 3 coffee makers, 2 toaster ovens, and 2 fridges in the last 16 years I've lived in my current house.  I can't believe that is anything but planned obsolescence.

Have you ever thought it might be you? Sounds to me like you need to open your check book and buy better quality appliances!


I call bullshit on that.  The technology advancements reduce costs; manufacturing process improvements reduct costs; supply chain efficiencies reduce costs. 

To a point and not indefinitely. The greatest gains in these areas were during the 1990s. Diminishing returns now, unless they move the plant to Singapore, of course.

You want appliances that are built to last and perhaps even become family heirlooms?  Don't buy the least expensive model at the most affordable store.

BTW, Sears has never been a manufacturer of appliances. Everything that has ever worn the label Kenmore, Hotspot or Coldspot is simply another companies product private labeled to Sears. What you're really getting is a Whirlpool, GE or Fridgidare depending on the appliance.

Yup.  I've known that.  The quality is still very good.  Never had issues and great longevity.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: kingshmegland on June 06, 2018, 08:06:44 AM
Shit. Chad, $200 for a coffee maker?  I've never spent more than $60. :lol
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: jingle.boy on June 06, 2018, 08:14:58 AM
Shit. Chad, $200 for a coffee maker?  I've never spent more than $60. :lol

It has a built in grinder, and is a stainless steel carafe - which seemingly is a rarity these days.

Plus...  CAD
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: cramx3 on June 06, 2018, 08:30:10 AM
I just buy the cheap stuff (assuming it still fits my needs/wants) and have the expectation it won't last.  Nothing does these days.  I just buy the $80 vacuum cleaner and am happy to get a few years out of it and don't think twice when it breaks to toss it and get another cheap one.

If it was something more important, like a fridge, I could see myself going for a better option though.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: kingshmegland on June 06, 2018, 08:38:48 AM
I have this craft style one that you push your cup against a button and the coffee pours out.  No more old school glass.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: Stadler on June 06, 2018, 08:48:15 AM
I call bullshit on that.  The technology advancements reduce costs; manufacturing process improvements reduct costs; supply chain efficiencies reduce costs.  That 20-year old microwave I own cost me only a few hun back in 1998.  Appliances that my parents bought in the 70s wouldn't have cost multiple thousands - probably the same $1500-$2000 for a fridge, or $500-$1000 for a dishwasher.  I've gone thru 2 stoves, 3 diswhashers, 3 coffee makers, 2 toaster ovens, and 2 fridges in the last 16 years I've lived in my current house.  I can't believe that is anything but planned obsolescence.

We pay about the same for lower quality shit these days.

And ever-increasing raises for workers doing the same job they did in 1974 raise costs.  Forced healthcare for ALL employees raises costs.  Insurance for lawsuits from morons that burn their taste-buds from hot coffee raises costs.  Unilateral and forced compliance with global environmental standards raises costs.  If  you're going to parse out the "cost of goods sold" you have to go whole hog on that puppy and look at ALL the costs. 

I worked for GE for about a decade, and for a time I was part of the group that had Appliances, Lighting and Consumer Electronics (circuit breakers and shit like that, not coffee pots and stereos).   Single greatest line item in the manufacturing COGS?   HEALTHCARE.  Second biggest?  LABOR.    Wasn't third, but in the top five or so?  ENVIRONMENTAL. 

Goods are not purposefully built to have a shorter life-span, but whoever said that consumers are not willing to pay what it actually costs for quality was spot on.  They're just not.   People pay for features, plain and simple.   Plus you factor in that people don't maintain like they used to - how many times have you vacuumed the dust out of your microwave?  I have a complete DT catalogue that says "NEVER" - and you have a shorter lifespan.     

Oh, and "corporate greed"?  The margin on appliances is as thin as the gossamer wings on a Victoria Secret model.   They would work around 5% to 7% overall (it varied, though, across products; refrigerators weren't the same as, say, air conditioners or stoves).   That's about 1/10th the margin of that phone that's in your hand right now showing videos from Pornhub.   Microsoft and Apple generally are in the 35% range.  Most businesses are in the 20% range.   The geniuses on Shark Tank would laugh you out of the studio if you came in and said "My margins are 5%!".   Mr. Wonderful:  "I'm out!". 
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: Podaar on June 06, 2018, 08:49:49 AM
I've gone thru 2 stoves, 3 diswhashers, 3 coffee makers, 2 toaster ovens, and 2 fridges in the last 16 years I've lived in my current house.  I can't believe that is anything but planned obsolescence.

Have you ever thought it might be you? Sounds to me like you need to open your check book and buy better quality appliances!

I'll assume you forgot to put that in green font.  ;)  I always go with Consumers Reports highly rated appliances / best value for money.  Last month, our 2-year old coffee maker (Cuisinart - $200... 2nd time we had that model already) just refused to start the brewing cycle.  I buy middle / top shelf precisely because I don't want to be regularly replacing big ticket items.

And yet, you have replaced your dishwasher 3 times in 16 years. I bought a Fisher Paykel dual in 2001 for $1,400 and have never had it serviced, never had to replace a part and it has only failed once. It failed because I hadn't cleaned the seal on the bottom drawer well enough so water leaked onto the control PC board. The board was designed so well that the troubleshooting guide that came with my machine literally said to dry it out with a hair dryer and press the reset button. Now that's great engineering and it worked like a charm.

I don't know, maybe I have better luck because I tend to schedule in maintenance for my stuff. For example, I clean the dishwasher every two - three months. It takes about 10 minutes and two bottles of this stuff Dishwasher magic (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00OFOZQ7O?tag=amz-mkt-chr-us-20&ascsubtag=1ba00-01000-a0049-win70-other-nomod-us000-pcomp-feature-scomp-wm-5&ref=aa_scomp)

I just buy the cheap stuff (assuming it still fits my needs/wants) and have the expectation it won't last.  Nothing does these days.  I just buy the $80 vacuum cleaner and am happy to get a few years out of it and don't think twice when it breaks to toss it and get another cheap one.

See, this is also what I'm on about. I bought one of the DC14 Dysons in the early 2000's and it still works fantastic. It will probably out live me.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: Stadler on June 06, 2018, 08:58:07 AM
As an aside, the frig in my house is best guess 20 years old, and we're looking at a new one.  We've already upgraded the dishwasher, the stove (I went to gas, babay!) and now the frig is next.   They have refrigerators now that I can theoretically reply to you old farts FROM THE TOUCH SCREEN.  How whack is that?  I thought refrigerators were to keep my eggs cold, and give me ice for my vodka soda splash of ginger that I use to escape after the kids go to bed? 

And they have these neat "pocket doors" (I don't know what the marketing phrase is for them) that you can open without opening the full fridge to get your drinks or other small items.   How great/lazy as f*** is that!   :) :) :)
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: Grappler on June 06, 2018, 09:01:23 AM
I don't know, maybe I have better luck because I tend to schedule in maintenance for my stuff. For example, I clean the dishwasher every two - three months. It takes about 10 minutes and two bottles of this stuff Dishwasher magic (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00OFOZQ7O?tag=amz-mkt-chr-us-20&ascsubtag=1ba00-01000-a0049-win70-other-nomod-us000-pcomp-feature-scomp-wm-5&ref=aa_scomp)

Vinegar will do the same thing, and it's a lot cheaper.  2 Cups of vinegar in the cycle and it will remove all of the scale buildup in the machine (and on dishes too!). 
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: Podaar on June 06, 2018, 09:06:51 AM

Goods are not purposefully built to have a shorter life-span, but whoever said that consumers are not willing to pay what it actually costs for quality was spot on.  They're just not.   People pay for features, plain and simple.   Plus you factor in that people don't maintain like they used to - how many times have you vacuumed the dust out of your microwave?  I have a complete DT catalogue that says "NEVER" - and you have a shorter lifespan.     


The bolded can't be stressed enough. Stad's is dead on with this. Commercial versions of consumer appliances are completely opposite.

All the whizzbang features on consumer Dryers, for example, are not necessary for drying clothes and add complexity that creates failures. Anything man made will fail. Period. Commercial dryers that run day in and day out for decades have a temperature setting and a time setting. That's it. They aren't programmable (unless it's a coin-op), they don't inject steam for "wrinkle-release", they don't have moisture detection, they don't play a happy tune when they're done, they won't send you a text message. All the money spent on manufacturing them goes into making them strong and easy to clean the lint from.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: Podaar on June 06, 2018, 09:08:54 AM
I don't know, maybe I have better luck because I tend to schedule in maintenance for my stuff. For example, I clean the dishwasher every two - three months. It takes about 10 minutes and two bottles of this stuff Dishwasher magic (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00OFOZQ7O?tag=amz-mkt-chr-us-20&ascsubtag=1ba00-01000-a0049-win70-other-nomod-us000-pcomp-feature-scomp-wm-5&ref=aa_scomp)

Vinegar will do the same thing, and it's a lot cheaper.  2 Cups of vinegar in the cycle and it will remove all of the scale buildup in the machine (and on dishes too!).

I don't know, we have pretty hard water out here, but I'll give it a try. Really, I need to get off my dead ass and install a quality water softener, that would cure a lot of issues I think.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: jingle.boy on June 06, 2018, 09:12:08 AM
@ Stads and the cost issue.  I'm not disputing your knowledge as it relates to GE, but on the whole, puh-leeze.  First, you're suggesting that wage-inflation is greater than general inflation.  Inflation adjusted earnings are fairly flat since the mid-70s (http://www.aboutinflation.com/_/rsrc/1366246464557/salary-and-inflation/average-earnings-us/us-earnings-inflation-adjusted-male-age-25-historical/US_Earnings_per_year_inflation_adjusted_male_age_25_plus_historical_chart_2012.png).  Second, how many appliances are actually built in the US? I know for TVs and blu-ray players, it's somewhere in the range of 0%.  Samsung and LG are also pretty big players in the general household appliance space.

This wasn't meant to be a discussion on wages and healthcare costs, so I don't want to derail it in that direction.

And yet, you have replaced your dishwasher 3 times in 16 years.

Precisely my point... quality is not what it used to be.  For clarity, I meant to say I'm *on* my 3rd dishwasher - not that I've replaced it 3 times.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: kingshmegland on June 06, 2018, 09:12:48 AM
I was told by a repair guy that the front load washers cost a bot load to repair.  Stay with the top load.  I got an energy saver version of the top load.  Only $550.00.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: lordxizor on June 06, 2018, 09:22:26 AM
There is a certain level of nostalgia about old things as well. Not to say they weren't built stronger and last at least somewhat longer back then, but I think that gets overblown a bit. Everyone looks at their grandparents 1970's fridge that's still running and laments the loss of quality over the years. No one remembers their uncle, cousin, neighbor, and everyone else they know that had to replace their fridge multiple times in the time frame. We look at the one outlier that has lasted a long time and draw conclusions about everything.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: Podaar on June 06, 2018, 09:25:54 AM
I was told by a repair guy that the front load washers cost a bot load to repair.  Stay with the top load.  I got an energy saver version of the top load.  Only $550.00.

Yes, top load washer repair parts are generally inexpensive because they are mass produced cheaply, but you also have to repair them more often. Top loaders are also painfully inefficient with water and soap usage, cleaning effectiveness, and water extraction (the higher the extract speed the less time in the dryer).

If you'd spent that same $550.00 on a front load LG with direct drive and reduced features (that no one needs) you'd have been money ahead.

And yet, you have replaced your dishwasher 3 times in 16 years.

Precisely my point... quality is not what it used to be.  For clarity, I meant to say I'm *on* my 3rd dishwasher - not that I've replaced it 3 times.

I don't know, dude. You may be right but I think you may be giving away too much of your personal responsibility...either by the decisions you make about the product you buy or they way the products are treated.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: kingshmegland on June 06, 2018, 09:29:10 AM
Our first front load washer lasted 12 years.  We've had this new one for 2 years.  Our dryer is 14 years old and it only needed the belt replaced once.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: Stadler on June 06, 2018, 10:00:28 AM
@ Stads and the cost issue.  I'm not disputing your knowledge as it relates to GE, but on the whole, puh-leeze.  First, you're suggesting that wage-inflation is greater than general inflation.  Inflation adjusted earnings are fairly flat since the mid-70s (http://www.aboutinflation.com/_/rsrc/1366246464557/salary-and-inflation/average-earnings-us/us-earnings-inflation-adjusted-male-age-25-historical/US_Earnings_per_year_inflation_adjusted_male_age_25_plus_historical_chart_2012.png).  Second, how many appliances are actually built in the US? I know for TVs and blu-ray players, it's somewhere in the range of 0%.  Samsung and LG are also pretty big players in the general household appliance space.

This wasn't meant to be a discussion on wages and healthcare costs, so I don't want to derail it in that direction.

I do!  Fuck yeah!  I'm kidding; I don't either, except to say "earnings" and "labor cost" are not the same thing.   The money a company pays to it's employee is a fraction, anywhere from 30 to 70% +/-, of the cost to the company.  And you'd be surprised; the GE plant is in Louisville, KY, and while this might have changed, when I was there, the campus contained the largest privately owned (meaning non-railroad company) railyard in the U.S.   They will source components from outside the US, but a large portion of the assembly is done in the US.   I don't know if they still do, but GE used to put the percentage of US manufacture right on the label.  Hang on, I'll go check the dishwasher......


Precisely my point... quality is not what it used to be.  For clarity, I meant to say I'm *on* my 3rd dishwasher - not that I've replaced it 3 times.

Speaking of "on" your dishwasher, in my dorm at college the laundry room was very popular place during/after dorm parties...  just throwing that out there.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: jingle.boy on June 06, 2018, 11:59:36 AM
Fair point on wages vs fully burdened headcount costs.

And *on* an appliance ... not sure if I'm titillated, or disgusted.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: Orbert on June 06, 2018, 12:21:05 PM
Doesn't matter what the guy thinks.  If she's into it, it's a good thing.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: ReaperKK on June 17, 2018, 01:10:40 PM
Welp after getting my lawn in amazing shape this year I'm done trying to fight the heat. We haven't had rain in 2 weeks and I'm tired of watering the lawn wasting water and paying a fortune to do so.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: gmillerdrake on June 17, 2018, 02:19:48 PM
Welp after getting my lawn in amazing shape this year I'm done trying to fight the heat. We haven't had rain in 2 weeks and I'm tired of watering the lawn wasting water and paying a fortune to do so.

Yeah. Itís brutal. Weíre forecast for a chance of thunderstorms every day this week but Iíve been watering the  :censored out of our yard given our house is in the market. I fear my next water bill more than anything right now.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: jingle.boy on June 17, 2018, 02:49:20 PM
Welp after getting my lawn in amazing shape this year I'm done trying to fight the heat. We haven't had rain in 2 weeks and I'm tired of watering the lawn wasting water and paying a fortune to do so.

Yeah. Itís brutal. Weíre forecast for a chance of thunderstorms every day this week but Iíve been watering the  :censored out of our yard given our house is in the market. I fear my next water bill more than anything right now.

I just spent almost an hour trouble-shooting my in-ground sprinkler (front yard zone was not coming on from the controller), only to make it worse (now 2 zones aren't coming on :zeltar:).  They work just fine when I open the main valve from the outside, but the controller ain't doin shit.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: Phoenix87x on June 30, 2018, 01:20:56 PM
Do you guys get a separate, individual bill for the year's school tax?  I just got one out of the blue for like $1400. I thought it was built in the mortgage payment which has some items in escrow like insurance, property tax and I thought school tax, but I guess not.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: Cool Chris on June 30, 2018, 01:50:32 PM
Property taxes are usually all rolled in to one bill, which is most often (I thought) paid out of your escrow account.

Maybe your local teacher's union is pissed off at the JANUS decision and taking matters in to their own hands   :biggrin:
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: Stadler on June 30, 2018, 09:28:42 PM
Welp after getting my lawn in amazing shape this year I'm done trying to fight the heat. We haven't had rain in 2 weeks and I'm tired of watering the lawn wasting water and paying a fortune to do so.

Yeah. Itís brutal. Weíre forecast for a chance of thunderstorms every day this week but Iíve been watering the  :censored out of our yard given our house is in the market. I fear my next water bill more than anything right now.

I just spent almost an hour trouble-shooting my in-ground sprinkler (front yard zone was not coming on from the controller), only to make it worse (now 2 zones aren't coming on :zeltar:).  They work just fine when I open the main valve from the outside, but the controller ain't doin shit.

Check your relays.  I had that problem when I moved in.   
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: jingle.boy on July 01, 2018, 05:06:26 AM
I ended up having to call my landscaper in to fix it.  Long story short, he was just as perplexed about why it wasn't working.  Power was flowing in to the valve, and we could open the valve to 'manually' turn the problem zone on, and the control panel could turn it off, but the panel couldn't 'start' it.  He was going to replace one component of the valve, but the system is so old (made in the 80s) that there aren't any compatible parts.  So, he ended up replacing the entire valve system for all the zones.  Full-day's work - not looking forward to that bill, since we're going to be moving out of this house in the next 12 months!  Oh well, at least I can market it as a "brand new" sprinkler system.   :lol
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: gmillerdrake on July 01, 2018, 08:50:00 AM
A few weeks ago I mentioned we were selling our home.....well, we decided to pull it from the market.

Nothing will make you appreciate what you have more than when you start to look around at homes that are 30 years older than yours in neighborhoods where the Ďlifeí seems to be non existent. (Meaning no kids running around, neighbors outside talking to one another etc etc.)

Plus, near all the feedback we received about our home went along the lines of something like ďbeautiful home....but for that price we could build a new one on our ownĒ or....Ēlove the house but for that price weíd expect granite countertops and new carpet throughoutĒ

Understandable feedback and opinions but we were never going to put new carpet in or granite countertops to sell our house because we really didnít Ďneedí to sell it. It was an experiment with the market to see if we could get a quick hit sale at asking price and pocket $100k to slap down on our next loan. With school starting mid August and being less than impressed with what we were seeing out there available.....we decided to pull our house and stay put.

Which honestly we all are happy with and feel good about. Like I said, this experience helped us realize how blessed and fortunate we are to be where weíre at. Neighborhood is fun, weíve made many close friends here and the kiddos get to stay locked in with the friends theyíve made. So itís all good.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: gmillerdrake on July 01, 2018, 09:00:48 AM
I'm still pissed that I won't be able to see the oasis full of lush plants. :getoffmylawn: Rationalize it any way you want, Gary. Your still a disappointment.

Oasis plan back on!!!! Gotta re-focus and start to put the finishing touches on the back yard. Probably wait until fall being that summer is in full effect now.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: cramx3 on July 09, 2018, 08:54:06 AM
Nothing wrong with testing the market. You got some real feedback and made a better decision knowing what you now know for next time you might be making a move.

A house on my street just hit the market. Literally the same house as mine in terms of original build, but asking price is $120k more than what I paid. I'd be surprised if someone bought it, that seems like too much, but I will be happy if it sells for that.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: jasc15 on July 25, 2018, 12:05:16 PM
Ive begun demolition on my basement which was finished some time in the 70's, and has mold issues.  I've been reading all sorts of opinions on how to properly insulate and water proof basements, but finally came across an authoritative source, the Building Sciences Corporation.

https://buildingscience.com/documents/bareports/ba-0309-renovating-your-basment/view

XPS rigid foam on top of concrete wall allows slow permeation of moisture through, rather than an impermeable barrier which would allow condensation and mold.  This, plus furring strips and drywall, and thats the story.  I'm tired of anecdotes that worked for some guy's house.  You can't stop the moisture, only manage it properly.

Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: cramx3 on July 25, 2018, 12:25:56 PM
You can't stop the moisture, only manage it properly.

Seems like a true statement.

My house has some moisture issues in the basement.  I bought the house and the lady left the AC off in the summer for two months after she moved out before we closed and I moved in.  In the meantime, the basement sweated like crazy, there were small puddles on the concrete floor and wet walls.  We were close to not closing thinking this lady didn't tell us about issues, but realized the airflow was really poor and we could resolve this by just turning on the AC in the house.

Now since then, the AC just makes the basement not sweat, but doesn't really keep the moisture out enough.  The lady had like a vent installed in the basement to remove air from the basement and shoot it outside.  I also got a dehumidifier.  We then added another vent for the central air to push air in the basement.  Eventually my AC unit failed and I got a much better one that has pretty good dehumidifier as well so I stopped using the stand alone and just set the humidity level low in my house and it just runs and takes care of it now.  I pretty much have no issues with moisture anymore.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: Kattelox on July 25, 2018, 12:28:14 PM
This thread is a goldmine of information since I've found myself looking into buying a house. Just want to say thanks :)
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: gmillerdrake on August 02, 2018, 09:19:37 AM
Was at LOWES on Tuesday and noticed they had a bunch of their perennial's considerably marked down....all $1 or less. Despite them not being in full bloom I scooped (52) plants up. Some are fall blooming so there's a good chance they'll bloom this fall....but I had to do it. "List" price total from the tags pre-tax was $318....final bill after tax was $74 and some change.

So here's a couple pics of the 'wall' project from this past spring with some plants planted. I have (3) more I want to buy to plant in the middle of the three sections still open up top....I'm wanting to get some Reddish perennial grasses....anyway.

One thing I did was re-arrange some of the end of the wall boulders I had set in place to create kind of a 'natural' end cap planter, her's a pic with the one in the upper left as a 'before' and the others are 'after':

(https://i.imgur.com/XrxN9bR.jpg)


A couple overview shots:

(https://i.imgur.com/6a5dvKG.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/HLrxSdX.jpg)

And you can see that the wildflower seeds I blasted the backside of the wall with are starting to pop through:

(https://i.imgur.com/c3VPcCw.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/VbXTEme.jpg)


And I took a panoramic for the heck of it:

(https://i.imgur.com/0EzSPt5.jpg)



One thing that sucks and that I have to get on is this heat has destroyed the sod I installed in the spring. Gonna have to throw some TLC into it here in the fall months.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: cramx3 on August 02, 2018, 09:27:23 AM
Nice

I did some weeding last weekend as the brush pickup for the town was this week and damn this is why having a house sucks  :lol  The heat made it so miserable, I kept having to go inside to hydrate and cool off.  I didn't even get to finish, but I got my main goal done.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: jingle.boy on August 02, 2018, 09:49:02 AM
That looks smokin dude!
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: vtgrad on August 02, 2018, 10:26:20 AM
That wall looks great Gary! 

And where have I been... never seen this thread before.  Need to start posting more I guess!

My wife and I threw this down last October:

(http://i358.photobucket.com/albums/oo26/joshuarowland/Firepit%203_zpsveurcwhf.jpg)

(http://i358.photobucket.com/albums/oo26/joshuarowland/Firepit%201_zpsphbhuae5.jpg)

(http://i358.photobucket.com/albums/oo26/joshuarowland/Firepit%202_zpskjsiksin.jpg)

We have enjoyed it immensely since then!  Dug the ring out of the ground ourselves and placed the flagstones and boulders ourselves (one man boulders my a$$)... I designed it and had a friend deliver the stones.  Also dug a few stones out of the Holston River to fill in the gaps.  All in all I'm very pleased with it!
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: gmillerdrake on August 02, 2018, 10:28:43 AM
Nice

That looks smokin dude!

That wall looks great Gary! 

 :tup
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: gmillerdrake on August 02, 2018, 10:30:03 AM
My wife and I threw this down last October:

***snip***

We have enjoyed it immensely since then!  Dug the ring out of the ground ourselves and placed the flagstones and boulders ourselves (one man boulders my a$$)... I designed it and had a friend deliver the stones.  Also dug a few stones out of the Holston River to fill in the gaps.  All in all I'm very pleased with it!

Yeah...that looks awesome!!! Back yard fire pits are so fun. Really good job on that.  :tup
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: vtgrad on August 02, 2018, 10:32:25 AM
My wife and I threw this down last October:

***snip***

We have enjoyed it immensely since then!  Dug the ring out of the ground ourselves and placed the flagstones and boulders ourselves (one man boulders my a$$)... I designed it and had a friend deliver the stones.  Also dug a few stones out of the Holston River to fill in the gaps.  All in all I'm very pleased with it!

Yeah...that looks awesome!!! Back yard fire pits are so fun. Really good job on that.  :tup

Thanks man!  Inside the boulder ring is an actual 2' deep pit lined with river rock and sand, so we really have some raging fires if I don't carefully manage the airflow.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: Podaar on August 02, 2018, 10:36:25 AM
I'm planning a fire pit for next year. Good job, vtgrad!

Gary,

I like what you've done and it will look real cool when the plants mature!

Holy shit, your sod took a beating! I've had pretty good luck with seeding in the fall and then over-seeding near the end of winter before last of the snow is gone. All my lawn is blue-grass though, I don't know what kind of grass you grow there so I don't know if my method would work for you.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: cramx3 on August 02, 2018, 10:59:34 AM
Love the fire pit, also love how you pulled some of the stones out of a river yourself  :yarr
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: gmillerdrake on August 02, 2018, 12:15:30 PM
Gary,

I like what you've done and it will look real cool when the plants mature!

Holy shit, your sod took a beating! I've had pretty good luck with seeding in the fall and then over-seeding near the end of winter before last of the snow is gone. All my lawn is blue-grass though, I don't know what kind of grass you grow there so I don't know if my method would work for you.

It was Fescue sod. The issue was two fold. First, I should have prepped the ground a bit better than I did prior to laying the sod. I spread some fertilizer designed for pre-sod dirt but the dirt itself wasnít very thick/deep. I should have brought in a layer of clean top soil but I didnít.

Then to make things worse we got hammered in a three week stretch where it was blistering heat outside. Lots of 95 degree plus weather with zero precipitation. I watered the sod but it was just so freaking hot and there is zero shade in that part of the yard. Just got cooked.

I think Iím going to bring in a bit of top soil and spread a light layer across the dead sod.....over seed and just go from there when it cools down in the fall. I think between that and then re-seeding/over seeding in the spring I should be able to get something going. Plus, I bought a sprinkler system that has a timer now so itís getting regular watering.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: vtgrad on August 02, 2018, 01:56:36 PM
Love the fire pit, also love how you pulled some of the stones out of a river yourself  :yarr

Thank you!  :tup  Pulling the stone out of the Holston River (North Fork runs beside one of my offices) was an adventure for my wife and I; took two five gallon buckets, stood in the middle of the river bed flowing about mid calf, and filled them half-way full each trip so that we could get back up the slope to the truck and dump them.  Made three trips there, four or five trips down-stream several miles and made two or three trips at an old fishing spot of my father's upstream from my office.  Found out later that pulling stones from that river (even the small amount that we pulled and being careful not to pull some much as to change the course of the river) would have landed me in hot water if a game-warden had seen it.  Makes for a good story!

The boulders and flagstone are some Hokie Stone (grey dolomite-limestone) and mostly Virginia Flagstone (Sandstone quartzite).
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: jingle.boy on September 07, 2018, 04:28:44 AM
Fuk you Gawy Miwwerrr... I did buy a house!

http://www.myvisuallistings.com/pfs/263856

I should probably think about selling my existing house now.   :lol

tl;dr... bought a house, moving in Feb 28th

The story:
With the jingle.kids off to school, mrs.jingle and I had always known there was nothing holding us to the city where we live and planned to move shortly after they went off to school.  We love our house and property, but the city is turning to the shits - growing way too fast is causing a lot of other problems.  Ever since jingle.daughter's car accident in June, we've really noticed how dangerous driving is around here, crime is getting really bad, the infrastructure can't support the growth, and we have a huge south-asian population (like, greater than 50%), many who don't seem to adapt to Canadian culture very well (eg, terrible drivers).  I could make an entire huge-assed post just about how much I hate this city and can't get out fast enough, but I digress.

So this summer, we started casually looking around at houses in the Niagara region (somewhat close to where jingle.daughter is going to school - which would give her the option of living at home come 2nd year).  Mrs.jingle is committed (professionally) to staying here in our city until the end of October, so we aren't ready to sell our house until then.  But, we were definitely wanting to buy first, since this will (hopefully) be our 30-year home to live and grow old in together.  We were just looking to get a sense of what we liked/didn't like, where we liked/didn't like, what we could get for our budget etc...  Unless we found the perfect house, we really weren't wanting to buy/move until after Christmas.  Turns out, we found the perfect house.  One of our goals is that we were looking for a place that would be part way between the two schools that the jingle.kids were going to.  The only knock on this house is that it isn't that - it's further away from jingle.son, while still being relatively close enough to jingle.daughter that she could commute.

Absolutely love the house, huge/gorgeous property, move-in ready, end of Feb closing.  It's 5-minutes from the border in Buffalo (hence the big Sabres man-cave (none of which stays).  Pretty much all the stars aligned for us here.  After we saw this one, everything else paled in comparison - and a lot of places we saw were absolute tripe for the price that was being asked.  When we finally came to the realization that everything else we saw was a house, but this place felt like a home...  we knew we found our place.

So, time to start getting the current jingle.house in shape to be sold.  Nothing major... a few minor touchups, and a lot of de-cluttering.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: Indiscipline on September 07, 2018, 05:31:40 AM
Very lovely indeed, and the Jacuzzi is just the right not-small-not-large-but-cozy dirty size.

The mancave just screams Music Room.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: ReaperKK on September 07, 2018, 06:18:22 AM
Thatís awesome Jingle Iím happy for you!

As for the Asian population I noticed in some areas itís massive. My buddy lives in markham and I went out for a drive once while he was working and ran into strip malls that had zero English on them.
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: jingle.boy on September 07, 2018, 06:55:23 AM
Thatís awesome Jingle Iím happy for you!

As for the Asian population I noticed in some areas itís massive. My buddy lives in markham and I went out for a drive once while he was working and ran into strip malls that had zero English on them.

Yeah, that end of the Greater Toronto Area is highly oriental.  Ours is more Indian/Pakistani
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: axeman90210 on September 07, 2018, 09:06:43 AM
Damn that's a pretty baller house. Petition for username to be changed to jingle.pimp
Title: Re: The Benefits of Home Ownership?
Post by: cramx3 on September 07, 2018, 02:36:09 PM
Very nice and congrats jingle.pimp  :yarr