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Dream Theater => Dream Theater => Topic started by: LCArenas on March 02, 2015, 10:18:44 PM
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It's quite interesting to see the albums that are discussed the most in this subforum. The always-Controversial Awake, I&W, SFAM, the comparison between ADTOE and DT12, and even Systematic Chaos. But BC&SL doesn't seem to come up much amidst the discussions. It's like it has faded into oblivion after almost 6 years since it was released, being the last album to feature Mike Portnoy on the drums and as part of DT's creative process (And it shows).
I remember the praise it had when it was released. I started lurking DTF right after it came out and there were a lot of people ranking it among their favorite DT albums and praised the style of the songs, myself included.
I haven't listened much to it in the last years, to be honest. It seems like the general opinion of the forum is that it hasn't aged very well.
What do you think? Why do you think it's not talked about as much as the rest of the albums? How has it aged for you over the years? Do you still listen to it regularly? Why or why not?
Sucking on his pipe
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A few stray thoughts about BCSL...
-I became a DT fan in 2007. SC was the first album that came out while I was a fan, and I loved it to death. Then BCSL came out and I was initially very excited for it with the long songs and all, but it didn't really stay in the rotation very long.
-The one thing that really made a huge impact then, and still does today, is the guitar solo in The Best of Times. The moment I heard it, I was completely blown away, and it remains my favorite solo to this day. I know the song as a whole gets a lot of flak, and the non-solo bits of the song I find rather mundane (though tasteful), but the solo elevates everything that comes before it and really makes it a top 10 DT track for me, the same way Intervals-Razor's Edge elevates the first three sections of 8V.
-A common sentiment about the album, one that I share, is that it has too few songs. Most albums that just have six or seven tracks have to be really consistent to work, because if you find three or even two of the tracks forgettable, the album tends to get forgotten along with them. On BCSL, we have one song out of six that doesn't aspire to be anything particularly incredible (Wither) and another that rehashes a lot of old DT sections (TSF). Nobody's going to put BCSL on to listen to either one of these, because Wither isn't a draw on its own, and most of TSF's good moments can be accessed through other 12SS songs. So right there you have two strikes. Dislike anything else (for me, I don't care for the Beautiful Agony section, the ambient break in TCOT, or the AROP instrumental, the last of which is one of my least favorite sections of DT music) and the album really starts to sink. With its share of controversial moments (MPs growls, the AROP stuff, TBOT lyrics, MY BRUTHA, etc.), the album is likely to induce many listeners to call strike three. DT is a band that moves around a lot stylistically, which means that fans from different backgrounds are likely to find something to dislike on every release (as opposed to, say, a power metal band, which releases basically the same album every time, but is always sonically consistent). Given BCSL's format, this variety works against the band more than it usually does.
-Speaking of sonic consistency, the other thing about BCSL is that, of all the albums in DT history, it's the one that sounds closest to another one. Yes, ADTOE has a lot of similarities to I & W, but 2/5 of the band turned over, not to mention 20 years in production techniques. BCSL, however, sounds like it could've been a double album with SC, because all the instruments sound almost exactly the same. It lacks an individual identity. I&W is the proggy album that started it all, and it has the '80s feel. Awake is the heavy '90s album. FII is the commercial, rock-oriented album. SFAM is SFAM. SDOIT is the experimental album. ToT is the metal album. 8V is the poppy album. SC is the modern/fantasy metal album. And BCSL is...basically SC with nonfiction lyrics. It's more concertedly epic, I suppose, but SC, with TMOLS and ITPOE, wasn't exactly coming from the 8V/DT12 conciseness model. The DT fans that do like the SC/BCSL sound (like myself) are probably more likely to go for SC, where the sound was more fresh, there was one more track, and there weren't the Wither/TSF issues described above. As much crap as SC gets, I feel like I see more "Hey, it's actually great" posts about it than I do for BCSL.
-Another issue with BCSL is that, TBOT glory excepted, it's possibly the worst DT album in terms of solos, which is unacceptable given its artistic intent. This is an album of huge, epic, modern metal tracks from a virtuostic powerhouse, and yet the three metallic opuses (ANTR, AROP, and TSF) contain very little memorable lead/solo work. The ANTR tradeoffs don't go anywhere, AROP really doesn't work at all, and the TSF solos feel tacked on and overstay their welcome. TCOT doesn't really have much soloing, either. So here you have this band that's known for the instrumental prowess, playing in a format that seems sure to especially emphasize that prowess (even by DT standards), and they come up short more often than not on that end. Of course, the instrumental issues make these longer pieces cohere less, thus hurting the flow and making the album less memorable, which becomes more of an issue due to having only a few tracks, etc.
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Um TCOT has that immense outro solo, which is one of JP's best (plus the nice intro). While the solo in Wither is short and sweet, it's memorable for how melodic and restrained it is, plus the aforementioned TBOT, and ANTR has that killer rock lead in the first half. I also think the TSF one is cool, even though not as memorable. Overall though, I'd say JP was definitely at the top of his game for soloing on that album as much as ever.
I'd say ADTOE is easily JP's worst album for solos, with very little that is memorable at all.
I rank BCASL near the bottom, but I still think there's a lot to love about the album. As has been said, the biggest problem with the album for me is that there are too few songs. If you've got a couple of duds on an album with 10 songs, it doesn't hurt the album much overall at all. On an album with only 6 songs where you have a couple of 10 minute long duds? That has a huge impact.
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one of my favourite production jobs in the catalogue (seems to be the opposite of the consensus around here, which i definitely don't get), but also one of the worst offenders along with TOT for albums that are lengthy because the band didn't spend the time editing down their needlessly repetitive ideas and musical pieces that don't go anywhere (about half of ANTR, AROP and TBOT for sure, arguably TSF too). the only full songs i'm still backing are "Wither" and TCOT these days.
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I've always been a huge advocate for this album. It was my first proper DT 'experience' and so my entrance to DT land as a whole. Meaning, I probably have huge nostalgic bias that probably overrides any objectivity regarding it's structure or compositions relative to the expectations of someone who's already a DT fan *gasp*, I was also on drugs at the time so it practically completely blew my mind. (Don't do drugs kids :hat) Although if I'm honest, I probably don't listen to it a whole lot these days because I really have listened to it too much, and I admit the limited song selection doesn't offer as much to come back to in the long run. That being said, it's an album of epics (if loosely using the term) so there's still plenty of stuff to dig into each song which can keep you coming back. I love how the songs feel quite natural to me, like they were just having a massive jam session and made songs out of it. Might not be the best way to make an album all the time, but it feels like they had a lot of fun with this one, I like the way the songs turned out and certainly wouldn't want to trim any of them down.
At least two thirds of the album has songs that I consider to be 'growers'. In that they have a lot going on, and you can get different things out of multiple listens until you start digesting all the details more thoroughly. I'm reffering to ANTR/TSF/TBOT/TCOT. The scope of these pieces were pretty impressive from a creative viewpoint, there's a lot going on, very progressive. And the other two tracks, the 'ballad' and the 'rocker' fill their roles accordingly and I believe they're very important to the presentation of the album as a whole.
Just to put a few things in perspective about the way I feel regarding this album. I admittedly will have bias for this album in particular for the reasons I've mentioned, but because it was my first album I had no prior bias about anything else. So songs like TSF I judged as it was with zero concept of the whole 12SS thing. I didn't know the riffs and motifs were being reprised (or rehashed depending on your perspective). MPs vocals didn't bother me because.. I dunno, I was listening to completely 'new' music at the time, that's just what they were doing, who was I to question the second vocalist doing his thing. In retrospect I can see why people point out these things as it was a bit 'different' for DT. I also wasn't really put off from the quantity of songs as they all seemed packed full of interesting ideas enough to keep me intrigued. Besides, in my complete ignorance I assumed the second disc was a continuation of the album. I would never have recognised the Rainbow song, same with the Crimson, Zebra and Dixie Dreg songs. I really should have recognised the Maiden song but I didn't (although it is a rather obscure piece for them). It was the Queen Medley that got me to further investigate because although I didn't recognise the pieces, Flick of the Wrist/Lily of the Valley just have Queen written all over them and I got suspicious. Almost wasn't the biggest surprise when I realised they were all covers, but that's how it went. :lol
Loved how it had all the instrumentals too (although really I consider these ones to be more backing tracks what with the lack of solos). These actually really got me more interested in appreciating the instrumentation though and was just a hint at what I had in store from DT when I started discovering more about them as far as extra content goes.
So yeah, great album. Deserves more recognition in my opinion.
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Um TCOT has that immense outro solo, which is one of JP's best (plus the nice intro). While the solo in Wither is short and sweet, it's memorable for how melodic and restrained it is, plus the aforementioned TBOT, and ANTR has that killer rock lead in the first half. I also think the TSF one is cool, even though not as memorable. Overall though, I'd say JP was definitely at the top of his game for soloing on that album as much as ever.
I'd say ADTOE is easily JP's worst album for solos, with very little that is memorable at all.
Yeah, all the leads you mentioned are good. I never really perceive the TCOT one as a real "solo"--just a nice section in which JP happens to be playing some lead stuff (like the end of IT)--but that's a personal thing. Also note that none of these are JR solos. JP is, on average, maybe a bit below his typical level on the album, but when you combine that with 80 minutes of music that doesn't have much in the way of cool key solos (I do actually like the continuum one in ANTR, but I feel like I'm the only one), you get an album that is a bit disappointing in this area for me, and I don't feel like I'm alone here.
I should mention that I don't dislike the album--it's #6 for me. Love TBOT and enjoy Wither, TCOT, and ANTR quite a bit. The overall negativity of my post above is more seeking to explain the overlooked nature of the album commented on in the OP.
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I actually like BC&SL, but I do have to be in the right mood for it. I think of it as their "gothic" album. The Count of Tuscany is an all time DT classic, but it really is the only thing I'd listen to outside the rest of the album (if that makes sense).
The fact BC&SL is regarded as a lesser album really only underlines how good the rest of their stuff is...
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It's quite interesting to see the albums that are discussed the most in this subforum. The always-Controversial Awake, I&W, SFAM,
There's nothing controversial about these albums other than they're all in the top 5 of probably 98.9% of DT fans.
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It's quite interesting to see the albums that are discussed the most in this subforum. The always-Controversial Awake, I&W, SFAM,
There's nothing controversial about these albums other than they're all in the top 5 of probably 98.9% of DT fans.
Maybe I didn't phrase that very well :lol The controversial adjective was directed only at Awake; I always feel people a bit divided when talking about that album.
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I've never felt 'comfortable' with the rap in ANTR. When I first heard it, I was like "What the...?" And some fans regard it as something of a joke. To me, that whole thing is just not Dream Theater. The rest of the song is great (especially Beautiful Agony), but the rap does spoil things a bit for me.
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I rank BCASL near the bottom, but I still think there's a lot to love about the album. As has been said, the biggest problem with the album for me is that there are too few songs. If you've got a couple of duds on an album with 10 songs, it doesn't hurt the album much overall at all. On an album with only 6 songs where you have a couple of 10 minute long duds? That has a huge impact.
Pretty much that. I don't care for TBOT at all. And Wither and AROP, while not bad, don't do a heck of a lot for me. For each of those, I can find other songs in the DT discography that have a similar structure and vibe that I like a LOT more.
I do love ANTR, the Shattered Fortress, and the Count of Tuscany. But 3 songs out of 6 makes for an inconsistent album.
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I have to say the album keeps growing on me. I've become a big fan of TSF lately when originally I wasn't too crazy about it. TCOT speaks for itself. It's just a masterpiece. TBOT solo is one of JPs best and I still don't get why so many people dislike the song.
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Still a great album for me. I rank it in 4th place tied with Awake, behind my magic three of Six Degrees, I&W and ADTOE.
SONG RANKING WOO
1. The Count of Tuscany
2. Wither
3. The Shattered Fortress
4. A Nightmare to Remember
5. The Best of Times
6. A Rite of Passage
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Easily the least of the Rudess-era albums. The song that works the best is Wither. I love Wither, but for this kind of band, when that is the most consistent song on the album, that's a problem.
Every other song has at least one thing marring it, and most of them have more than one thing.
This album displays a lack of focus, way too much bloat, and a sense of settling for things in songs that they don't need to settle for, like no other album in the catalogue.
I much prefer the covers disc to the album itself.
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I have to say the album keeps growing on me. I've become a big fan of TSF lately when originally I wasn't too crazy about it. TCOT speaks for itself. It's just a masterpiece. TBOT solo is one of JPs best and I still don't get why so many people dislike the song.
TSF was KILLER live on the last tour. Turned out great on Breaking the Fourth Wall as well.
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1. The Count of Tuscany
2. Wither
3. The Shattered Fortress
4. A Nightmare to Remember
5. The Best of Times
6. A Rite of Passage
My thoughts on the album :
1. Great song - silly lyrics. not as good as Octavarium as a closer.
2. Not bad. Great little solo. I actually prefer the Answer Lies Within to this - but I know everyone and their raw dog hates that song
3. A decent enough song. More of a medley than a new song. Doesn't touch the Glass Prison.
4. Way too long. Has some decent sections which are played 5 times too many and has one instrumental section and chorus too many.
5. Great song and an almighty solo - one of JP's best.
6. A fun song but that Bebot solo gets old quickly.
Overall i'd rank it WAY below Octavarium. Lower tier for me.
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I love that album.
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I have to say the album keeps growing on me. I've become a big fan of TSF lately when originally I wasn't too crazy about it. TCOT speaks for itself. It's just a masterpiece. TBOT solo is one of JPs best and I still don't get why so many people dislike the song.
TSF was KILLER live on the last tour. Turned out great on Breaking the Fourth Wall as well.
I think seeing in live was what did it for me.
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The good things first. The 'beautiful agony' parts in the middle of ANtR are wonderful. Wither is a rather nice track, 'leaves my paralyzed!" might be my favorite moment of the album. The intro of TCoT is amazing, everything that comes before the 'dun! dundundun! dun! dundun!" stuff and the vocals.
Other than those things, I dislike this album rather strongly. A Rite of Passage is painfully dull. I don't even consider The Shattered Fortress a proper song any more than I would consider Frankenstein's Monster a proper human. The Best of Times is quite frankly cringe worthy and has absolutely no business being on a DT album. And TCoT is completely ruined by its atrocious lyrics. In fact, all lyrics on this album are pretty bad, some of DT's worst ever. And when I listen to it, it makes me happy MP left, so that he can never do those 'harsh vocals' on a DT album ever again.
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BC&SL was the first full DT album I listened to, but I never thought of it as a particularly amazing album, and nowadays it's #10 in my ranking.
I keep going back to TCOT despite its ridiculous lyrics, because musically it's a great song, especially towards the end (as a matter of fact, I'm listening to the Happy Holidays version right now). Wither is a nice ballad, although the mash-up videos have slightly ruined it for me. :lol TSF isn't a very interesting album track, but it worked surprisingly well live, which made me appreciate it a little more, but I still think it relies too much on recycling old riffs and themes. ANTR has plenty of good stuff, but the solos are uninspired and I can't listen to the MP vocal section with a straight face anymore. The Best of Times has some nice melodies, but I really don't think the song needed to be 13 minutes long. AROP has a catchy chorus, but the poor verse vocal melodies and the disgusting Bebot solo are enough to make it a bottom 10 DT song.
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-Speaking of sonic consistency, the other thing about BCSL is that, of all the albums in DT history, it's the one that sounds closest to another one. Yes, ADTOE has a lot of similarities to I & W, but 2/5 of the band turned over, not to mention 20 years in production techniques. BCSL, however, sounds like it could've been a double album with SC, because all the instruments sound almost exactly the same. It lacks an individual identity. I&W is the proggy album that started it all, and it has the '80s feel. Awake is the heavy '90s album. FII is the commercial, rock-oriented album. SFAM is SFAM. SDOIT is the experimental album. ToT is the metal album. 8V is the poppy album. SC is the modern/fantasy metal album. And BCSL is...basically SC with nonfiction lyrics. It's more concertedly epic, I suppose, but SC, with TMOLS and ITPOE, wasn't exactly coming from the 8V/DT12 conciseness model. The DT fans that do like the SC/BCSL sound (like myself) are probably more likely to go for SC, where the sound was more fresh, there was one more track, and there weren't the Wither/TSF issues described above. As much crap as SC gets, I feel like I see more "Hey, it's actually great" posts about it than I do for BCSL.
Maybe I'm just really picky about production, but I noticed quite a big difference from SC to BC&SL. The drums have reverb, The guitars are more spaced out in the mix, the keyboards are slightly less buried, and the bass has a stronger low end punch. Jordan Rudess starts using "gothic choir" patches for this album, too.
I still agree with you that these two albums are more similar sounding than any other pair of albums in DT's history. I just think that the difference between them is a bit bigger.
I'll keep my opinion on the album short for now. ANTR and Wither still get several plays a week. The others are more of an acquired mood, but I still like them all. AROP is easily my least favorite song on the album. I just don't have any emotional connection to that song. The lyrics and the sonic atmosphere are almost like a negative energy.
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I'm not a big fan of A Rite of Passage or Wither (although I love bebot) but the strength of the four long songs is enough to put it at number 6 in my album rankings over albums like Awake, Train of Thought, and DT12. I don't mind MP's hrash vocals (TDEN notwithstanding) and the silly lyrics are actually kind of fun. ANTR is their best album opener, TSF is my favorite part of the 12SS and has the most severely underrated JP solo. TBOT is a decent song with my all time favorite guitar solo from any artist. And of course TCoT is a masterpiece and my number 2 DT song only behind Octavarium. I will say the biggest flaw on this album is Jordan's solos (other than bebot) and the regular keyboard parts being buried in the mix. I absolutely love the patches that JR used on this album and it's a shame that his parts are so low in the mix. But overall, this is a great but inconsistent album that was a fitting goodbye for MP.
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Still my favourite DT album of all time. TCOT my favourite song in spite of the lyrics, and since the BCSL was the tour where I saw DT live for the first time, it was very special. They became my favourite band after that. The Best of Times has special meaning because I knew I was going to lose someone who meant the world to me, and I latched on it. The acoustic section and the guitar solo will always break me. Music is beautiful, music is painful. Simple as that. I love that album and it defines what DT is to me personally.
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Still my favourite DT album of all time. TCOT my favourite song in spite of the lyrics, and since the BCSL was the tour where I saw DT live for the first time, it was very special. They became my favourite band after that. The Best of Times has special meaning because I knew I was going to lose someone who meant the world to me, and I latched on it. The acoustic section and the guitar solo will always break me. Music is beautiful, music is painful. Simple as that. I love that album and it defines what DT is to me personally.
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Awesome post! :-)
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6 years later, and I still don't get what problems people have with the lyrics (other than, I guess, trying to sound edgy and cool by finding something to critique).
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Easily the least of the Rudess-era albums. The song that works the best is Wither. I love Wither, but for this kind of band, when that is the most consistent song on the album, that's a problem.
Every other song has at least one thing marring it, and most of them have more than one thing.
This album displays a lack of focus, way too much bloat, and a sense of settling for things in songs that they don't need to settle for, like no other album in the catalogue.
I much prefer the covers disc to the album itself.
I was going to write a less good version of this post.
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6 years later, and I still don't get what problems people have with the lyrics (other than, I guess, trying to sound edgy and cool by finding something to critique).
I always enjoyed the lyrics. It's not the typical enigmatic lyrics that we're used to with JP, so people didn't take to it too well.
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I find it hard to listen to this one, as both ANTR and AROP are bottom 5 DT songs for me. The remaining fifty minutes are much better, but still not great enough to pull this album above DT12.
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6 years later, and I still don't get what problems people have with the lyrics (other than, I guess, trying to sound edgy and cool by finding something to critique).
I'm reading Lifting Shadows. The parts of the book where JP talks about the car accident and seeing the Count of Tuscany in real life are more interesting than the lyrics he wrote about those experiences.
The lyrics for Wither are great though.
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I rank this album at #10, although I don't consider it a bad album. Lots of good stuff there and an excellent closer in TCOT. Don't care too much for TBOT, but the outro is good enough to almost save it, not quite. The cookie monster vocals in ANTR are cringe worthy and cheesy but for the most part, the song is pretty cool. I also like AROP and Wither quite a bit.
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6 years later, and I still don't get what problems people have with the lyrics (other than, I guess, trying to sound edgy and cool by finding something to critique).
I dunno, do lyrics or poetry generally matter to you? They don't to some people.
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6 years later, and I still don't get what problems people have with the lyrics (other than, I guess, trying to sound edgy and cool by finding something to critique).
I dunno, do lyrics or poetry generally matter to you? They don't to some people.
Generally, yes.
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It's a mild improvement over the train wreck of Systematic Chaos. But it was becoming pretty obvious that DT were in a low point creatively. I don't like the way it shook out...but the improvement after these two albums was so quick and drastic, that it was pretty obvious that it needed to happen.
The album starts well and ends well...but the middle part is just rather boring. There are no really terrible moments like on SC (I'm looking at you PoW) but it's just kindof "there". ANTR and TCOS are really amazing, and I guess it could be argued that that's nearly half the album.
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6 years later, and I still don't get what problems people have with the lyrics (other than, I guess, trying to sound edgy and cool by finding something to critique).
I dunno, do lyrics or poetry generally matter to you? They don't to some people.
Generally, yes.
In that case, I don't understand how you don't get what problems some people have with these lyrics.
We appear to be at an impasse.
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We appear to be at an impasse.
I'm afraid so -- I can't compete with you physically. And you're no match for my brains.
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It's a mild improvement over the train wreck of Systematic Chaos. But it was becoming pretty obvious that DT were in a low point creatively. I don't like the way it shook out...but the improvement after these two albums was so quick and drastic, that it was pretty obvious that it needed to happen.
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We appear to be at an impasse.
I'm afraid so -- I can't compete with you physically. And you're no match for my brains.
Alright, we'll call it a draw.
*shamelessly switches movies completely*
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I really like the album. One of my favorite DT albums.
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I hope no one minds, but I am going to include some opinions about the bonus discs in my "review."
To begin with, the COVERS:
I didn't like the Queen or Zebra covers.
The two instrumental pieces are very good.
I am a long-time fan of the Dregs.
Not so much of King Crimson, but I still enjoy this version of "Larks."
However, I think it would have been interesting to hear what would have happened if the band had had to depend entirely on themselves to work out an arrangement for these tracks, without the guest musician or musicians.
The Maiden cover wasn't NEARLY as good as the original, but it is at least passable.
One of my favorite tracks on ANY of these discs is the new version of Stargazer. I loved the original, and this version is only not as good by a hair.
Now on to the main disc and the instrumental versions:
My ranking of these songs is probably going to piss some people off, because for the most part, it's in reverse of everybody's preferences.
I am also going to count them down in reverse-
6) The Best of Times: Easily the WEAKEST song on the album, and one of the weakest songs the band has EVER done. The instrumental version is SOMEWHAT listenable, but it is VERY repetitious, and for some asshole reason they edited out the guitar solo at the end, which was very FRUSTRATING for me!
5) Wither: Too "gloomy-doomy-depressing." But I like the instrumental version. It's a nice little piece of music that I like hearing once in a while.
I would also like to mention that it doesn't BOTHER me all that much if an album doesn't have more than three or four songs on it that I like. It still makes it worth getting and keeping. This album has FOUR original songs that I like, but those four songs by themselves are MORE than long enough to make up the average-length album by the "average band."
4) The Count of Tuscany: Of the four "good" songs, I think this one is the weakest. Not terrible, but could have been better. Somewhat over-rated. There ARE things about it that I like. Nice little Rush tribute. Sections that definitely ROCK! But for one thing, the story leaves some unanswered questions. Were the "soldiers" POISENED by the wine? Or were they drowned in the wine BARRELS? What HAPPENED? Oh well, at least Petrucci got out alive to tell about it...
3) A Nightmare to Remember: This one I still listen to all the time. One of their most UNDER-rated songs, I think. I could be wrong, but I think most people on here pretty much ignore or overlook this song, and a few (maybe MORE than a few) even seem to HATE it. I know I've been using this term a LOT, but I STILL have to say that musically it ROCKS, and it has a lot of interesting-and sometimes disturbing-lyrical imagery.
2) The Shattered Fortress: Not the BEST part of "12-Step," but a decent wrap-up. It doesn't bother me that MUCH that they used bits and pieces of music and lyrics from the other four songs. I think they pretty much HAD to, because that was the intent of the piece: to remind us of what we need to remember, just like the person in AA is supposed to be reminded to "keep the steps." Good message, and EASILY the second-best song on the album.
1) A rite of Passage: I Know! I know! THIS is the one that's REALLY going to piss everybody OFF! I may be the ONLY one who thinks that this is one of their BEST songs EVER! I DO agree about the "be-bot" thing, it could and should have been quite a bit shorter, but otherwise I LOVE the instrumentation on this song, and that it has a very singable chorus, as well as some really thought-provoking verses.
So overall, I would have to say that the album is better than most people give it credit for being, ESPECIALLY songs 3, 2, & 1 on my list...
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The Count of Tuscany: Of the four "good" songs, I think this one is the weakest. Not terrible, but could have been better. Somewhat over-rated. There ARE things about that I like. Nice little Rush tribute.
Just snipped up your post to respond to a few points. :D You know I never noticed that, but after the intro, that second section when the band comes in has Rush written all over it. Nice observation.
The Shattered Fortress: Not the BEST part of "12-Step," but a decent wrap-up. It doesn't bother me that MUCH that they used bits and pieces of music and lyrics from the other four songs. I think they pretty much HAD to, because that was the intent of the piece
Completely agree. Even though I heard TSF before the rest of the 12SS songs (which was actually quite interesting to go back and discover the original parts). In any case, I think it would always have been the intent to wrap it up with some familiar highlights from the other songs. If it was something completely new, it wouldn't surprise me if people would have complained that it didn't fit in with the rest of the songs and claim the whole structure of the suite is incoherent. I'm sure some people think this anyway, but for me the reprisals are one of the best parts of TSF.
A rite of Passage: I Know! I know! THIS is the one that's REALLY going to piss everybody OFF! I may be the ONLY one who thinks that this is one of their BEST songs EVER!
Haha, well you're not the only one but we may in quite a minority. Top 10 songs for me. :metal
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BC&SL is, at least for me, the most depressing and darkest DT album written.
I mean, don't get me wrong, Scenes is also heavily dark and depressing but, after all, it's fiction.
What this album has is that it's real, and its stuff is about things that actually happened to Petrucci and Portnoy (Except for A Rite of Passage, which I consider to be a little out of place, although not a bad song).
Let's analyze the songs.
A Nightmare to Remember: The darkest one here, and talks about a tragedy, which even though it was not THAT severe (since nobody died and apparently nobody had permanent physical injuries), from a child's point of view, it's an horrific experience. Imagine looking at your family in such a terrible situation, moaning and calling for help or, even worse, not saying anything and then experiencing the incredibly frustrating sensation of not being able to help anyone while you are being treated and also, unaware of their current status!
A Rite of Passage: This one I have not heard it that much, but as far as the lyrics concern, it's one of DT's most interesting lyrical approach. I mean, don't judge me, but when I first heard it I thought of the Illuminati almost instantly, and it offers a pretty good atmosphere about secret organizations dealing with the initiation of its members. (Keep in mind I could be wrong about this one, since I'm not a great fan of it, just giving my opinion with the lyrics)
Wither: This one is quite relaxing, awesome, but also very depressing. It's basically John Petrucci telling us about his problems when writing. The inmense frustration he feels when he has to start over and get rid of stuff that simply didn't work, spending hours and hours working on it. Telling us that his brain will eventually run out of ideas and that he will have to spend sleepless nights thinking about what to write afterwards. This probably also applies to other group members.
Ever heard of Chicago song 25 or 6 to 4? Well, it's actually quite similar to Wither, a song about writing songs, dealing with the frustration of thinking over and over and throwing away a lot of ideas. (And no, it's not about drugs).
The Shattered Fortress: The journey of a man reaching its end, after years and years suffering with alcohol, he is finally free and forced to deal with the aftermath of what he has done, accepting himself the way he is and the fact that he has to understand everyone rather than to be understood. Learning from thousands upon thousands of mistakes before him and looking at the future, promising to be forever helpful of everyone around.
The Best of Times: Saddest one here. But the kind of sadness that is just plain depressing if we keep in mind a few things...
If we pay attention to the slow part of the song, it's basically a son being sorrowful and apologizing at his father for not being able to accomplish all their dreams, realizing that time just vanished, and that all those things he wished to do with his best friend and idol, are now gone forever. He comes to the conclusion that he has to live on, to honor his father's image, while remembering all they did together as two best friends. Now... This is sad because it was never performed live, since Portnoy never had the strength to do so... And who would blame him? It is also a song that could never be performed live now... Imagine how would Portnoy be if DT was to play this song without him... And to think he quit DT shortly afterwards... Which means his father passed away without learning about his son's departure from the band.
Now here comes something interesting. The Best of Times ending solo is, for me, John Petrucci's most emotional solo ever, and one of the most emotional solos ever written. Thus, it's DT's most emotional outro ever... Which fits perfectly for the following song...
The count of Tuscany: Most interesting one, and also another of the saddest, but this one has a sadness that is mostly instrumental, but also lyrics are important. Listen to the intro, it is so beautiful, and what a perfect way to continue what was set during The Best of Times. This is arguably the most emotional intro ever, it's simply awesome. Although neither The Best of Times nor The Count of Tuscany got DT's hardest instrumentals, they do hold some of their most emotive (For me, the most) moments.
The Count of Tuscany sounds so joyful, it is not a sad song (For the first half), but rather exciting and happy, yet in depth feeling so... unreal, so depressing.
The lyrics basically speak about a man meeting two strangers, and believing that they are going to kill him. Only to find out that it was a terrible confusion. The middle part which everyone hates (The calm one) fits perfectly to the situation, it's awesome if you think about it. I prefer to see it as a man struggling to deal with the fact that he is going to die there, alone, with nobody noticing. The man goes on, thinking and thinking before finally collapsing and continuing the lyrics... James' voice reflects that so perfectly... And then... The best part kicks in... The man, the Count, had invited him to see his place, excited, to tell someone about his stories and traidionts... Only to find out he has freaked out his guest. Then he tries to fix things, explaining everything, saddened over the fact that his "friend" wants to leave... Before finally agreeing and telling him "Of course, you're free to go... But tell everyone about me and my brother...". I like to see it as the man and the count coming into terms and the man promising the count to narrate his story afterwards, and reveal their lifestyle and popularizing the isolation in which he must have been living...
Well... These are my opinions... man, what a bible.
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I forgot about the instrumental album - it's one of the best things about BC&SL. I love all the subtle differences, the bits where they've used different takes, etc. It's a great listen - particularly the ending of TBOT - I hate the way that fades out on the album proper.
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TBOT's actually one of the few fades I like. TTT and TMOLS, on the other hand...
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BC&SL is good album, Thats it!
I really like Wither, TCOT and AROP. I wish they would bring these songs back to their live sets.
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BC&SL is boss
Fuck I&W
Fuck SFAM
Fuck Awake
BC&SL, SC and DT12 bosses.
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BC&SL is boss
Fuck I&W
Fuck SFAM
Fuck Awake
BC&SL, SC and DT12 bosses.
lolno
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BC&SL is boss
Fuck I&W
Fuck SFAM
Fuck Awake
BC&SL, SC and DT12 bosses.
Lol, I appreciate your sentiment towards the 'underrated' albums there, but I still couldn't say that at the expense of the more 'overrated' albums. I also can't even tell if you're serious. :P I like 'em all anyways. :lol
BC&SL is good album, Thats it!
I really like Wither, TCOT and AROP. I wish they would bring these songs back to their live sets.
Yes, those three exactly! I'd love to see any of those make it into a set. Wouldn't hurt to play TBOT one day but I kinda doubt that'll be happening any time too soon though...
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BC&SL is boss
Fuck I&W
Fuck SFAM
Fuck Awake
BC&SL, SC and DT12 bosses.
OK
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BC&SL is boss
Fuck I&W
Fuck SFAM
Fuck Awake
BC&SL, SC and DT12 bosses.
OK
This :loser:
I&W/A/SFAM >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>DT12>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>BC&SL>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>SC
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Agreed that those albums are better than SFAM.
Definitely not better than I&W though, and only BCSL is even on a par with Awake.
IMO.
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BC&SL is, at least for me, the most depressing and darkest DT album written.
I mean, don't get me wrong, Scenes is also heavily dark and depressing but, after all, it's fiction.
What this album has is that it's real, and its stuff is about things that actually happened to Petrucci and Portnoy (Except for A Rite of Passage, which I consider to be a little out of place, although not a bad song).
Let's analyze the songs.
A Nightmare to Remember: The darkest one here, and talks about a tragedy, which even though it was not THAT severe (since nobody died and apparently nobody had permanent physical injuries), from a child's point of view, it's an horrific experience. Imagine looking at your family in such a terrible situation, moaning and calling for help or, even worse, not saying anything and then experiencing the incredibly frustrating sensation of not being able to help anyone while you are being treated and also, unaware of their current status!
A Rite of Passage: This one I have not heard it that much, but as far as the lyrics concern, it's one of DT's most interesting lyrical approach. I mean, don't judge me, but when I first heard it I thought of the Illuminati almost instantly, and it offers a pretty good atmosphere about secret organizations dealing with the initiation of its members. (Keep in mind I could be wrong about this one, since I'm not a great fan of it, just giving my opinion with the lyrics)
Wither: This one is quite relaxing, awesome, but also very depressing. It's basically John Petrucci telling us about his problems when writing. The inmense frustration he feels when he has to start over and get rid of stuff that simply didn't work, spending hours and hours working on it. Telling us that his brain will eventually run out of ideas and that he will have to spend sleepless nights thinking about what to write afterwards. This probably also applies to other group members.
Ever heard of Chicago song 25 or 6 to 4? Well, it's actually quite similar to Wither, a song about writing songs, dealing with the frustration of thinking over and over and throwing away a lot of ideas. (And no, it's not about drugs).
The Shattered Fortress: The journey of a man reaching its end, after years and years suffering with alcohol, he is finally free and forced to deal with the aftermath of what he has done, accepting himself the way he is and the fact that he has to understand everyone rather than to be understood. Learning from thousands upon thousands of mistakes before him and looking at the future, promising to be forever helpful of everyone around.
The Best of Times: Saddest one here. But the kind of sadness that is just plain depressing if we keep in mind a few things...
If we pay attention to the slow part of the song, it's basically a son being sorrowful and apologizing at his father for not being able to accomplish all their dreams, realizing that time just vanished, and that all those things he wished to do with his best friend and idol, are now gone forever. He comes to the conclusion that he has to live on, to honor his father's image, while remembering all they did together as two best friends. Now... This is sad because it was never performed live, since Portnoy never had the strength to do so... And who would blame him? It is also a song that could never be performed live now... Imagine how would Portnoy be if DT was to play this song without him... And to think he quit DT shortly afterwards... Which means his father passed away without learning about his son's departure from the band.
Now here comes something interesting. The Best of Times ending solo is, for me, John Petrucci's most emotional solo ever, and one of the most emotional solos ever written. Thus, it's DT's most emotional outro ever... Which fits perfectly for the following song...
The count of Tuscany: Most interesting one, and also another of the saddest, but this one has a sadness that is mostly instrumental, but also lyrics are important. Listen to the intro, it is so beautiful, and what a perfect way to continue what was set during The Best of Times. This is arguably the most emotional intro ever, it's simply awesome. Although neither The Best of Times nor The Count of Tuscany got DT's hardest instrumentals, they do hold some of their most emotive (For me, the most) moments.
The Count of Tuscany sounds so joyful, it is not a sad song (For the first half), but rather exciting and happy, yet in depth feeling so... unreal, so depressing.
The lyrics basically speak about a man meeting two strangers, and believing that they are going to kill him. Only to find out that it was a terrible confusion. The middle part which everyone hates (The calm one) fits perfectly to the situation, it's awesome if you think about it. I prefer to see it as a man struggling to deal with the fact that he is going to die there, alone, with nobody noticing. The man goes on, thinking and thinking before finally collapsing and continuing the lyrics... James' voice reflects that so perfectly... And then... The best part kicks in... The man, the Count, had invited him to see his place, excited, to tell someone about his stories and traidionts... Only to find out he has freaked out his guest. Then he tries to fix things, explaining everything, saddened over the fact that his "friend" wants to leave... Before finally agreeing and telling him "Of course, you're free to go... But tell everyone about me and my brother...". I like to see it as the man and the count coming into terms and the man promising the count to narrate his story afterwards, and reveal their lifestyle and popularizing the isolation in which he must have been living...
Well... These are my opinions... man, what a bible.
No need to apologize for being "long-winded!"
My post on this thread wasn't exactly short either.
I would also like to point out that there are other "great works of literature" that are a lot LONGER and more BORING than the Bible.
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BC&SL is boss
Fuck I&W
Fuck SFAM
Fuck Awake
BC&SL, SC and DT12 bosses.
You HATE "Images" and "Scenes?"
I can understand them not being everybody's favorites...
...but why the hate?
However it IS nice to know that someone agrees with me that "Systematic" is as good or better!
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BC&SL is boss
Fuck I&W
Fuck SFAM
Fuck Awake
BC&SL, SC and DT12 bosses.
You HATE "Images" and "Scenes?"
I can understand them not being everybody's favorites...
...but why the hate?
However it IS nice to know that someone agrees with me that "Systematic" is as good or better!
Probably my least favorite out of these albums is Awake xD.
I actually love them all...
And fucking love BC&SL, as well as SC, which was the very first Dream Theater album I heard carefully and has a deep sentimental meaning for me.
And yeah, won't apologize for the long text lawl, ty
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I never listen to it. I have though, very often. It hasn't aged well indeed. I don't know what the 'problem' is.. I saw DT on that tour and they were still absolutely great.
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For me, this album has aged really well; I wasn't a huge fan when it came out, even though I enjoyed it. Now, I find that I must have been in a weird, memorable place when it came out, because listening to it really takes me back. Still not really into The Shattered Fortress or The Best of Times, but I generally love every other track.
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The Stargazer cover would've been great if JLB didn't go so overboard with trying to sound like Ronnie. It doesn't suit him. It's a shame too because the music is spot on. Didn't care too much for the Maiden cover either
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The Stargazer cover would've been great if JLB didn't go so overboard with trying to sound like Ronnie. It doesn't suit him. It's a shame too because the music is spot on. Didn't care too much for the Maiden cover either
I don't think James went overboard, and in fact, I've never heard this criticism. He certainly sang the hell out of it, and really shines on the covers disc. I wish he had that freedom on the actual album.
The Maiden Cover would have been ten times better had it been part of the Black Clouds sessions.
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I have to say the album keeps growing on me. I've become a big fan of TSF lately when originally I wasn't too crazy about it. TCOT speaks for itself. It's just a masterpiece. TBOT solo is one of JPs best and I still don't get why so many people dislike the song.
TSF was KILLER live on the last tour. Turned out great on Breaking the Fourth Wall as well.
I think seeing in live was what did it for me.
I never cared for TSF when it came out. I love it on BtFW. It seems fresh now. I think the live energy made a huge difference in this one. Maybe the time away from the suite also helped. Now I love the "callbacks" to the original songs (as opposed to thinking of them as "recycled" on BCaSL)
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I have to say the album keeps growing on me. I've become a big fan of TSF lately when originally I wasn't too crazy about it. TCOT speaks for itself. It's just a masterpiece. TBOT solo is one of JPs best and I still don't get why so many people dislike the song.
TSF was KILLER live on the last tour. Turned out great on Breaking the Fourth Wall as well.
I think seeing in live was what did it for me.
I never cared for TSF when it came out. I love it on BtFW. It seems fresh now. I think the live energy made a huge difference in this one. Maybe the time away from the suite also helped. Now I love the "callbacks" to the original songs (as opposed to thinking of them as "recycled" on BCaSL)
I love the previous song references. It's fitting since it's the closing of the suite.
Is that Jewel?
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BC&SL is boss
Fuck I&W
Fuck SFAM
Fuck Awake
BC&SL, SC and DT12 bosses.
:umno: but thanks for playing. :biggrin:
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I haven't listened to this in ages. I liked it a lot when it was released and thought it was a definite step in the right direction after Systematic Chaos, which I didn't like at all except for TMOLS.
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6 years later, and I still don't get what problems people have with the lyrics (other than, I guess, trying to sound edgy and cool by finding something to critique).
Well, I am not criticizing to sound egdy or cool. I just hate the lyrics, and think they are badly written and actively distract me from enjoying the songs. Lyrics are a huge deal to me, and vocals are more important to me than most of the other instruments, most times.
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I just played it the other day for the first time in a couple years I imagine. I like it EVEN LESS now.. and I never liked it that much. Really felt like a letdown.
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I just played it the other day for the first time in a couple years I imagine. I like it EVEN LESS now.. and I never liked it that much. Really felt like a letdown.
Did the same about a week ago. It was on the heels of listening to ADTOE and DT back to back. Those two albums are so far superior to BC&SL......it's not even close IMO. BC&SL has such a 'forced' feel that in one aspect I can understand MP's desire to 'take a break'. What I think was needed (and still could be useful) is an outside producer and just a change of the way they go about writing albums. But....BC&SL can't even be saved by TCOT or the 'hopelessly drifting' section of ANTR.
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I didn't care for it at all when it came out and I haven't listened to it since. Like TOT and 8VM and SC, this album isn't even on my music player anymore.
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I think I've actually warmed up to this album. The Shattered Fortress and The Count of Tuscany are both amazing, as are large parts of The Best of Times. That's more than half the album that I like or love.
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I think I've actually warmed up to this album. The Shattered Fortress and The Count of Tuscany are both amazing, as are large parts of The Best of Times. That's more than half the album that I like or love.
I definitely like it more and more as time passes.
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I can barely listen to any of the songs on this album. I like Wither and The Shattered Fortress, but the other songs are a real chore for me.
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I'll listen to it today in honor of this thread, but it will be the first time in a few years. Honestly, my thoughts going in are much like Hef's above. Maybe I'll be surprised.
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The Shattered Fortress
I love this song on the last DVD....I thought it sounded awesome live and Mangini owned it!!! It is also my 8 year olds favorite DT song for some reason....he requests it all the time!!
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Did a whole DT discography run a while ago.
BC&SL was definitely a chore to sit through on the whole. I did enjoy myself with the ending solo to The Best of Times and pretty much the entirety of The Count of Tuscany. I had really debated to myself whether I preferred this one or SC, and I think the main problem with Black Clouds is that it's a whole lot more inconsistent. It has some of the worst material DT has ever done, and yet some of the best musical passages they've ever put out as well, all on one album.
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The Shattered Fortress
I love this song on the last DVD....I thought it sounded awesome live and Mangini owned it!!! It is also my 8 year olds favorite DT song for some reason....he requests it all the time!!
Yeah, it really comes alive on that recording.
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The Shattered Fortress
I love this song on the last DVD....I thought it sounded awesome live and Mangini owned it!!! It is also my 8 year olds favorite DT song for some reason....he requests it all the time!!
:lol That's awesome. My 5 year old's favorite Dream Theater song is Wither. She isn't satisfied until I sing the chorus to her.
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It usually flip flops with 6D for my favorite DT album.
Sure, it's inconsistent, but I think that's the beauty of it. I prefer a beautifully flawed album rather than a perfect one. It's dark, depressing, and represents the dark times we go through in real life, in my opinion. ANTR is still my #1 DT song for many reasons, it sets up the album perfectly. AROP feels a bit out of place, but it's still a kick ass song. Wither is beautiful, however you interpret it. TSF is the weakest on the album, but still good. TBOT is absolutely beautiful, enough said. TCOT is also amazing, taking you to another plane of existence during the middle part.
Sure, the album is definitely hard to stomach, but despite its flaws, it truly is a fantastic, albeit dark, experience. Only Awake surpasses the dark, isolated feeling from this album, but unfortunately a few songs slow it down.
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When I became a DT fan, this was their most recent album. 8VM was my first album though, because dat title track. Anyways, I didn't think BCaSL was that terrible at first. I enjoyed everything except A Rite of Passage, which was still a good listen. It just got old quickly, I guess. Soon enough I'd skip A Rite of Passage, then Wither, and then I got sick of The Best of Times (which I used to love every minute of), so I just skipped the whole album. I still enjoy The Count of Tuscany and A Nightmare to Remember, but not anywhere near as much as first listen.
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I had really debated to myself whether I preferred this one or SC, and I think the main problem with Black Clouds is that it's a whole lot more inconsistent. It has some of the worst material DT has ever done, and yet some of the best musical passages they've ever put out as well, all on one album.
While I cannot agree that the worst passages in DT history (sans ANTR MP tough guy section + can has blast beat) are on this album, I do agree it is all over the place. Not as much as SC to me though. To your point, ANTR - Beautiful Agony part. I will believe until a new one comes out (doubtful), that this has the best DT vocal harmonies ever. And yet yeah, it has the *other* section.
And I listened to TBOT the other day as it shuffled on. While there is a lot of good, there is some borderline cringe stuff at PetFish pointed out to MP years ago on his forum. As much as MP took that personally, JP's Take Away My Pain I could argue has meh parts too.
So I don't see the worst sections IMO ever (part of 6:00, 6DOIT get some of my votes), there is a lot that I do agree with being kind of meh. Yet we have the TBOT solo, most of TCOT, Beautiful Agony, the three riff mashup instrumental section of TSF, and so on.
While it's not anywhere near my bottom (SC), it cannot really challenge any other whole albums for me. I like all the songs on the album, which makes it weird that the album ranks low. Just really is the all of the place parts, plus the total sum not equaling other classics. The album and SC, of course using hindsight, to me displayed the symptoms of breakdown within the band. Someone also pointed out pre-MP departure I think of how the studio clips showed issues.
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I love this album. It's one of my favorites. It's definitely my favorite modern Dream Theater album, and I've been a fan since Images and Words came out in '92. I do consider myself more of a classic Dream Theater fan (I even love the Majesty stuff), but I like all of their music (Mike Portnoy era being the best, in my opinion), with the occasional rare songs I just don't care for and can't get into. There's not many of those for me, though.
Having said that, I don't really care for A Rite of Passage. It's fine, but it's never a song I would make a choice to listen to outside of listening to the entire album for the experience. For a long time I couldn't really get into The Best of Times, but my mother passed away in September of 2013, and after that the song became very relevant to me.
I love the progressive aspects of this album, and I think it has some of the best songs DT has ever written. I absolutely love A Nightmare To Remember, Wither, The Shattered Fortress, and The Count of Tuscany. I love the slow Agony section of A Nightmare to Remember. I think it's got one of the best hooks a DT song has ever had, and it still gives me chills when I listen to it to this day. The heaviness, the solo trade offs between Rudess and Petrucci, even Portnoy's somewhat ridiculous growl and blast-beat at the end; I love it all. I understand Wither is more of a John Petrucci song than a Dream Theater song, but I think it's fantastic, and such a heartfelt and solid song. My wife and I danced to it at our wedding reception. We both love it. I'm also very partial to slow songs, even if I'm a huge fan of heavy music. When I first heard The Shattered Fortress, I didn't care for it too much since I thought it sounded like a riffbag of riffs taken from all the previous AA Suite songs, which is actually rather true, but that song grew on me the more I listened to it. I think it's one of the best out of the five songs, and it may be my favorite next to The Glass Prison. I'm not sure I can say which one is better, but I believe The Shattered Fortress stands on its own, and I love Petrucci's solo at the end. I expected something different out of the song, but ultimately I think it was a great way to close out the Suite. The Count of Tuscany is probably my favorite song Dream Theater has ever written. I think it's an absolute masterpiece, and I love every bit of it. I love the gorgeous intro, the heavy sections, and the ethereal Petrucci/Rudess section before the big reveal by the Count towards the end. Then follows a variation of the masterful intro at the end of the song, and another incredible solo by Petrucci, reprising the theme he started with. Speaking of the reveal by the Count, I love that twist on the story. This guy is terrified for his life, and there is this horror feel throughout the whole song, but it's revealed that the Count is just a normal guy after all. Well, sort of ;), but the fact that everything is okay and the main character isn't going to die (everything was really just in his head) relieves the tension felt in the heavier aspects of the song so wonderfully well.
Someone above said the solos were uninspired and unmemorable. I couldn't disagree more. I feel the solos on this album are the best Petrucci has laid down since the early days.
To me this album has the best elements Dream Theater has to offer. All the heaviness you could want amongst rather mellow songs/sections. That's one reason I don't get into Train of Thought as much as I'd like becuase it's rather one-sided. I know that was their goal, but to me Dream Theater shines best when throwing it all into the mix. Fast and slow, heavy and mellow, progressive and straightforward. I love the fact that the songs are rooted in truth and/or life. I actually like the fantasy aspects of Systematic Chaos, and I can relate the songs to my life regardless of the majority of fantasy lyrics, but I feel the songs on Black Clouds hold so much more meaning being based in reality.
True, I wish the album had more songs, but when 4 out of the 6 songs are some of my favorites ever written by the band, I can look past the actual number of songs. That and the fact that I feel there is so much substance to the 4 that I really like, I can look past what I don't like rather easy.
I think this is a fantastic album for Mike Portnoy to have gone out on. Man, I miss that dude. I don't care what anyone says about him; I support the man even if I wish things hadn't gone down the way they did. I met him by chance before an Adrenaline Mob show in Lubbock, TX, and he was one of the coolest dudes/musicians I've ever had the pleasure of meeting, but I digress.
Lastly, I've got a few thoughts. What I find so interesting in reading the thoughts about DT in this forum is everybody likes something different for different (sometimes the same) reasons. What I love someone else hates and what I don't care for someone else loves. But that's the best part, really. Dream Theater is so multifaceted that people can pick and choose what they like and still be a fan of the bigger picture (no pun intended). What Dream Theater is can mean something completely different among just even a handful of fans, but they are all still fans. That's something not too many bands can pull off at all, and I think that's awesome. Having said all that, I'd just like to state that I love Anna Lee. I think it's a beautiful song. I like it so much that I even named my daughter Anna Lee. Truth. I see so much hate for that song among fans, and I don't get it, but I don't care. And I digress again.
Anyway, thanks for everyone's thoughts here. I've been a fan for over 20 years, but I'm rather new to this forum. It's great to see other fan's take on things.
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I love the slow Agony section of A Nightmare to Remember.
Listening to the whole song certainly feels like a slow agony to me.
But hey, just because I don't like it doesn't mean no one else should. Like you alluded to in your post. Different strokes for different folks.
:metal
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Have had this CD in the player in the car the past few days cuz the kiddos love 'TSF'....but man, it's brutal to listen to this......especially if you listen to DT13 or ADTOE beforehand.
I think James does a good job singing.....JP has some killer guitar work.....JMx just back there begin g for someone to turn him up....and JR does his job ....BUT.....what makes it near unlistenable for me now is you can really hear just how lazily written the drum part are on these songs. B - O - R- I - N - G
You can feel that MP was done with the band by that point by how "simple" he plays and I'll still maintain he only stuck around one more album to fulfill the 12 step suite 'obligation' he made in his mind. ANTR is easily 4 minutes too long and it was all to get to that retarded blast beat section. Anyway, Ill refrain from bashing the songs because I do think the rest of the band had some good work isn't there...but I dare anyone to listen to this album after listening to DT13 or ADTOE and tell me honestly that the drumming in BC&SL even comes in the neighborhood of those two. It doesn't.
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That's you not bashing? :\
The only tough part of the dare for me would be having to listen to DT12 all the way through first. I'd listen to BCASL over the last two albums, and I don't even rank BCASL that highly.
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That's you not bashing?.
I'm just highly critical of MP's effort on that album. All his other albums you can 'feel' that he put some thought and effort into constructing the fills and rythums to fit the song....very creative and incredible stuff. BC&SL's is so lazy for him. It's rudimentary drumming for someone of his talent. Looking back on it IMO it's easy to see that he was done with DT long before he actually announced he was done.
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I think that's what people want to think is there in hindsight. Sure it's not MP's best drumming by any stretch, but the album still feels full of energy and groove, something which I can't say for ADTOE, and MP still had a big part in the album showing he was invested in the band.
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I think that's only what people want to think is there in hindsight. Sure it's not MP's best drumming by any stretch, but the album still feels full of energy and groove, something which I can't say for ADTOE, and MP still had a big part in the album showing he was invested in the band.
That's the cool thing about music....because I see it the exact opposite.
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For both SC and BCASL, the amount of MP vocals and mehtul is indefensible but I find BCASL has a few more redeeming sections than SC, including most of TCOT.
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Have had this CD in the player in the car the past few days cuz the kiddos love 'TSF'....but man, it's brutal to listen to this......especially if you listen to DT13 or ADTOE beforehand.
I think James does a good job singing.....JP has some killer guitar work.....JMx just back there begin g for someone to turn him up....and JR does his job ....BUT.....what makes it near unlistenable for me now is you can really hear just how lazily written the drum part are on these songs. B - O - R- I - N - G
You can feel that MP was done with the band by that point by how "simple" he plays and I'll still maintain he only stuck around one more album to fulfill the 12 step suite 'obligation' he made in his mind. ANTR is easily 4 minutes too long and it was all to get to that retarded blast beat section. Anyway, Ill refrain from bashing the songs because I do think the rest of the band had some good work isn't there...but I dare anyone to listen to this album after listening to DT13 or ADTOE and tell me honestly that the drumming in BC&SL even comes in the neighborhood of those two. It doesn't.
Mike Portnoy's worst drum parts are still more enjoyable to me than Mike Mangini's best. I feel like there's so much more energy and emotion in Portnoy's drumming than Mangini's. And the blast beat section shows he was still trying new things and not just doing what he always does without caring about the songs. To me, the biggest issue this album has is how low in the mix the keyboards are. The keyboard parts in ANtR and TCoT are some of Jordan's best, but you can barely hear what he's doing. Other than that, there's nothing really wrong with this album to my ears.
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Mike Portnoy's worst drum parts are still more enjoyable to me than Mike Mangini's best. I feel like there's so much more energy and emotion in Portnoy's drumming than Mangini's.
I absolutely LOVE 95% of MP's efforts!! He's incredible....one of the best ever! The stuff he's done with DT and Neil....man, just great. But SC and BC&SL's IMO he went through the motions....more so on BC&SL. MM's footwork on ADTOE blows anything MP attempted on BC&SL away. MP stuck to about three speeds of double bass and that was pretty much it....MM was incredible with his patterns on ADTOE and DT13.
I see MP as a more poetic or artistic approach to drumming and MM as a mathematical/scientific approach. Neither is wrong and both produce awesome music.
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Mike Portnoy's worst drum parts are still more enjoyable to me than Mike Mangini's best. I feel like there's so much more energy and emotion in Portnoy's drumming than Mangini's. And the blast beat section shows he was still trying new things and not just doing what he always does without caring about the songs.
I agree. Someone who was phoning it in would not have been putting in so much effort. If the drumming went by the wayside a bit at times, it's because he spread himself too thin on other areas of producing, but he always put passion and energy into his work.
MP's work on SC is especially underrated. The instrumental section of CM is one of my favourites, and I love the way MP's drumming accents the riffs and vocal phrasing so perfectly in TDEN. I spent ages learning to airdrum that instrumental section. :lol
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Yep, the last DT album I even remotely liked, if I'm honest. That being said, I could easily go without never hearing Wither or TBOT ever again in my life, ever.
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MP's work on SC is especially underrated. The instrumental section of CM is one of my favourites, and I love the way MP's drumming accents the riffs and vocal phrasing so perfectly in TDEN. I spent ages learning to airdrum that instrumental section. :lol
That instrumental section on CM is really tasty. I don't hear it very often, because I really can't stand the rest of the song, but that instrumental section is wonderful, and a very big part of that is MP. I just wish they had written a better song to around it.
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Mike Portnoy's worst drum parts are still more enjoyable to me than Mike Mangini's best. I feel like there's so much more energy and emotion in Portnoy's drumming than Mangini's. And the blast beat section shows he was still trying new things and not just doing what he always does without caring about the songs.
I agree. Someone who was phoning it in would not have been putting in so much effort. If the drumming went by the wayside a bit at times, it's because he spread himself too thin on other areas of producing, but he always put passion and energy into his work.
MP's work on SC is especially underrated. The instrumental section of CM is one of my favourites, and I love the way MP's drumming accents the riffs and vocal phrasing so perfectly in TDEN. I spent ages learning to airdrum that instrumental section. :lol
There's a lot to criticize if you want to (I don't as I am an MP fanboy of sorts) but "phoning it in" is not one of them. If that's your criticism of MP, then you're just being vindictive, and, well, phoning in your hate. :)
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^ I support the outcome of what happened, and feel MP has just as much to do with it, if not the majority. That said, if anyone can be accused of not participating as much in the album, it's JM imo.
Now we can just go off of what MP said, and what we hear on record. The other members didn't say anything else about current members. JM's performance was the most doubling I have ever heard him do, validating it would seem what MP said about only 3 members basically being there for all of writing. His playing was not "sloppy" as I have heard some say, but maybe more distorted than ever before, which can convey sloppiness. And when we compare BCSL to ADTOE and DT, he certainly had some stand out parts. Not WDADU's level, but enough.
UNderstandable for JM to just distance himself, that makes sense via his personality. But he still stuck with at least recording bass.
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If that's your criticism of MP, then you're just being vindictive, and, well, phoning in your hate. :)
I don't hate the guy at all. For a large part of my life I was one of his biggest fans. I was probably more devastated than I should have been when he chose to leave DT....yep....HE CHOSE to leave.....What I said about his drumming is just the tip of the iceberg of my 'criticism' of him...of which is obviosly just my opinion supported by observation of his actions and interpretation of his comments. And that's about all I can say about it before entering 'ban' zone.....
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MP's work on SC is especially underrated. The instrumental section of CM is one of my favourites, and I love the way MP's drumming accents the riffs and vocal phrasing so perfectly in TDEN. I spent ages learning to airdrum that instrumental section. :lol
That instrumental section on CM is really tasty. I don't hear it very often, because I really can't stand the rest of the song, but that instrumental section is wonderful, and a very big part of that is MP. I just wish they had written a better song to around it.
My favorite moment off CM as well and off the CD as a whole. Yep, the song around deserved to be better.
B.Lee
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A Nightmare to Remember and The Best of Times have some cringeworthy moments but everything else is rather good. The Count of Tuscany has a few cheesy parts but the overall musical theme is excellent. This album brings back some good memories and I don't mind listening to it, which is a lot more than I can say about DT12. Nothing really too memorable there.
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Mike Portnoy's worst drum parts are still more enjoyable to me than Mike Mangini's best. I feel like there's so much more energy and emotion in Portnoy's drumming than Mangini's.
I absolutely LOVE 95% of MP's efforts!! He's incredible....one of the best ever! The stuff he's done with DT and Neil....man, just great. But SC and BC&SL's IMO he went through the motions....more so on BC&SL. MM's footwork on ADTOE blows anything MP attempted on BC&SL away. MP stuck to about three speeds of double bass and that was pretty much it....MM was incredible with his patterns on ADTOE and DT13.
I see MP as a more poetic or artistic approach to drumming and MM as a mathematical/scientific approach. Neither is wrong and both produce awesome music.
I agree with about half of what you're saying, and maybe MP wasn't putting in as much effort on the final album as he has done in the past, but I don't think he was necessarily half arseing it or anything. In fact, as my first DT album I was still highly impressed by the drums on BC&SL, and even though I've been more impressed by other stuff since, the general standard of MPs drumming is high enough that apparently 'phoning it in' is still more interesting than what many drummers are up to. (Not that I can talk, I can't play drums for shit ;D). Also, yeah, MM's work on ADTOE is definitely more interesting than BC&SL drumming, but seeing as the production is so 'thin', it doesn't do it justice. Everytime I listen to ADTOE I still get surprised by some of the drumming moments that I obviously wasn't paying attention to in the past or they previously hadn't stood out enough for me to appreciate them possibly due to them fading to the background in favour of the rest of the instrumentation. It's possible ADTOE is completely unique for DT in that it was the only time drums were actually the last part recorded among the instruments. Still, BC&SL has pretty fantastic drumming if you ask me, if not perhaps a little below average by MP or DT standards (whatever that's supposed to mean :P). Oh, and considering your brief mention of MPs work with Neil, from this point of view I still consider MP leaving the best thing that could have happened for both parties. Because to me, MM with DT is still awesome, and we wouldn't have got Flying Colors - which I think is almost as good as DT in many respects. Infact I hope Flying Colors keeps going for years to come because it seems like anything could happen musically with those guys and I'm all for that.
What Dream Theater is can mean something completely different among just even a handful of fans, but they are all still fans. That's something not too many bands can pull off at all, and I think that's awesome. Having said all that, I'd just like to state that I love Anna Lee. I think it's a beautiful song. I like it so much that I even named my daughter Anna Lee. Truth. I see so much hate for that song among fans, and I don't get it, but I don't care. And I digress again.
Anyway, thanks for everyone's thoughts here. I've been a fan for over 20 years, but I'm rather new to this forum. It's great to see other fan's take on things.
You bring up an interesting point here, people become fans for different reasons, but I didn't really think about the idea that the band could even mean, or represent entirely different things for some people. Individually we look at them and go; "yeah, that's Dream Theater", but for each person that statement is loaded with different types of conceptions. They're certainly a multifaceted group and have explored many dimensions of music, reaching out to so many fans of varying styles. I think they deserve the popularity they have in their genre, yet I still have certain prog or music snob friends that think they're 'overrated', which is pretty much like saying "I don't understand why something is so popular and I sure as hell don't agree with it". :P
Oh, and btw Anna Lee is an amazing song. ;) People hate on it 'cause it's not what they think DT should be.. Maybe. I dunno, that's the only explanation I have as to why it's not liked by some because I think it's an amazing song and even if it's not typical DT, I don't know how many people would actually say it's a 'bad' song. :lol I could easily imagine The Beatles writing a song like this.
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my favorite DT album. And it has their best song ever, The Count of Tuscany.
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Well, overall I love this album! As much as I love it, I think I understand the problems others have with it, even though I don't necessarily agree with them.
The only song I truely don't care for is TSF. And TBOT and AROP are my next least favs on the album, although I still like them quite well.
But the other three songs....OMG!
I agree that ANTR gets a bit repetitive and lengthier (is that a word?) than it needs to be, but I think it's pretty awesome.
Wither is an amazing song. I love when DT get a bit slower and mellower and this balad-ish song is still quite heavy (like much acoustic Zeppelin is still heavy). The drums are awesome and JP's solo is wonderful. And I think the lyrics are great. Love this song!
The song in DT's catalog I listen to the most is TCOT! Yes, the lyrics are silly, cheesy (insert adjective here), but I think they're fun. If you insist they are bad, ok, I won't fight you on it. But the music.........dear God, the music in this song, for me, is perfect! I mean PERFECT in every way! Amazing intro, JP's soloing here is so soulful to me. The mellow middle section is really cool (rip-off of Rush's Xanadu? Maybe, but it is so cool). Then once the acoustic guitar starts until the end, is pure bliss. Great guitar sound, great JP solo, and the drums throughout the end of the song are PERFECT!! Everytime I listen to the song and the drums at the end, I really miss Portnoy (and I really like Mangini!). I truely think I will never tire of listening to this song.
Has it aged well? Well, I still enjoy it as much as I did when I first heard it. And I also must mention that I typically have to listen to an album a few time before I get a solid opinion of it, regardless of artist. And I really liked BC&SL the first time I heard it.
And as much as I like this album, it isn't my favorite by them.
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I've talked forever about how I feel that SC and BCSL are the only two DT albums that make me really want to skip songs, despite also having some of DT's best material. So I finally created a playlist of the best. I am still playing with the track order, but here is what I have:
1. ANTR
2. Forsaken
3. TSF
4. Constant Motion
5. The Count of Tuscany
6. The Dark Eternal Night
7. A Right of Passage
8. ITPOE
Too bad it won't even remotely fit on a CD. I wasn't going to include AROP, but I think it will actually fit in well with the rest of the songs, so I left it in. Anyway...
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Digital music playlist then! But yeah, ITPOE is two songs, it cannot be just track 8. ;)
Forsaken and TDEN I could drop easily, but then that's six songs. :-\ ANTR would have to be dropped, and could slide in POW and Wither for me. Making it around 80 mins I think.
I feel like these two albums are like Load/Re-Load, Invisible Touch/We Can't Dance, and Deliverance/Damnation. Combined as one album, they have enough good stuff. Separated, they fall flat. Well, SC does at least. :biggrin:
But :tup on the songs.
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All the SC songs I chose are must-have songs. With Black Clouds, I really only have 3: ANTR, TSF, and TCOT. But strangely, AROP really works well in the playlist above and seems like a better song.
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This album has aged really well for me, to be honest the vast majority of its success at retaining a place in my heart is down to The Shattered Fortress and TCOT though. TSF is probably my favourite track of the AA Suite, it pulls every theme and idea together so flawlessly with a dollop of awesome new riffs and ideas on top, and TCOT is up there with 8VM, ACOS, ITPOE for me. I sometimes listen to Nightmare to Remember but usually only if I already have the CD on anyway.
It's weird, I really respect it as an album on an instinctive level but its 99% to do with just a third of the songs on there. They're just that strong for me that they make the rest of the album irrelevant.
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All the SC songs I chose are must-have songs. With Black Clouds, I really only have 3: ANTR, TSF, and TCOT. But strangely, AROP really works well in the playlist above and seems like a better song.
I would just switch The Dark Eternal Night for Wither. I'm definitely not a fan of TDEN...Now, the live version on the other hand (specially on the Forsaken EP) sounds awesome.
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I still love this album.
Some parts that I don't love:
- The lyrics to A Nightmare to Remember. Unlike The Count of Tuscany, which is over the top the whole time and consistent, Nightmare is all over the damn place.
"What began as laughter so soon would turn to pain"
This sounds like some B-movie in which characters think something is a prank is actually horrifying, not like you went to a wedding and got into a car accident.
"A flawless new beginning eclipsed by tragedy."
Again, this is melodramatic and it sounds like in Harry Potter when Death Eaters interrupt a wedding reception and start slaying people.
"The uninvited stranger started dancing on his own, so we said goodbye to the glowing bride and made our way back home"
...Why is this line here? Who is the stranger? Is the wedding a flawless new beginning? Because we know nothing about who's getting married, or how it's laughter and flawless to our protagonist. It just sounds like he went to his friend's wedding. Who is this damn stranger anyway? How is he pertinent at all? This line is all we ever hear of him, yet it makes him sound like he's a vital part of the story.
"Life was so simple then, we were so innocent; Father and mother holding each other"
This line implies to the listener that the Nightmare to Remember complicated the protagonist's life and split apart his family, which it apparently did not. I'm pretty sure that Petrucci was trying too hard to say that it was him as a child.
"Without warning [...] frightened and dazed"
Attempted lyrical styling in death metal? meh
"A man without a face"
It took me too long to realize that this was a doctor in a mask. Or was it? I have no bloody clue. And how does shining a light into eyes assuage pain? Unless they're two unrelated things the doctor did. Actually, that makes mores sense, and then "Beautiful Agony" is a morphine trip or something?
Also, what the hell does this have to do with elephants, Syme? Maybe BVD can chime in?
"Thoughts stand still inside his head; Makes no sense, he should be dead"
Is this self-reflection? The psychological trauma from the accident? Ah who cares, this line was cut anyway.
"Day after day, [...] Haunting my dreams"
See questions above
"How could he prepare [...] Everyone survived"
Again, with the melodramatic death metal. Except the lyrics are really mellow and sung in such a way that attempts to sound ballsy. Why?
- Wither. Never cared for it. Don't hate it, just very meh
- The Lyrics from The Best of Times. Cringeworthy to an outsider that can't relate to the experiences between Mike & Howard Portnoy. Take Away My Pain did a better job of conveying emotion, but this really doesn't work for a widespread public release.
- The bebot solo. A Rite of Passage had some of Rudess's worst moments of "pretentious wankery," culminating into this solo. Good thing it's short and the rest of the song is pretty catchy (yes, I'm serious).
- The production. Sonic quality was on a consistent decline from Falling Into Infinity (the band's peak) to Live at Luna Park (excluding Score and maybe Budokan). It became intolerable with Systematic Chaos and this album was roughly equivalent. The mix was meh and the mastering was awful. Rudess's worst patch ever was made in Bebot, and I don't really know much about instrument tones. As a drummer I can tell you that the birch/bubinga kit did not record well and that MP should stick to high snares.
- The end of The Count of Tuscany because it reminds me of the endings of my first two DT shows, and the last I would see with MP.
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OMG THEORY
THE UNINVITED STRANGER CAUSED THE ACCIDENT
AND HE WAS ALSO THE DOCTOR.
PETRUCCI'S ARMS WERE COMPLETELY DESTROYED THAT NIGHT AND HE SUFFERED SEVERE BRAIN DAMAGE.
SO THE DOCTOR REPLACED HIS ARMS WITH ARMS THAT WOULD GROW WITH TIME AND POSSSESED EXTREME SPEED.
AND THE CELLS QUE PLACED INSIDE HIS BRAIN WERE THAT OF A GUITAR GOD.
THEN THE DOCTOR SYNCRONIZED THE ARMS WITH THE BRAIN AND THUS IT ALL BEGAN
Don't you realize? It's John telling us how he became the superguitargod he is now.
"TELL ME DOES THIS HURT YOU? SAID THE FACELESS MAN..." He's faceless because he's some sort of Lovecraftian-like diety that can do this kind of thing. He's both the uninvited stranger and the doctor and the accident causer.
"CAN YOU MOVE ALL OF YOUR FINGERS?" He's testing his new arms and brain coordination to see if he can shred like there's no fcking tomorrow.
THERE WAS NO RED LIGHT THAT NIGHT, IT WAS THE ONE EYE OF THIS MONSTRUOUS BEAST.
OMG IT ALL MAKES SENSE NOW!
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lets get you home
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lets get you home
:lol
Honestly, I always imagined the stranger to be some random guy who had a few too many drinks, which prompted JP's parents to head home. I say "imagine" because, like Grizz pointed out, there's nothing in the lyrics at all to imply that this character is pertinent to the narrative in any way. It just shows up out of nowhere and there would be no way to logically infer such a thing. It still perplexes me how much of a mess these lyrics are.
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Can we just discuss cannibalism and call it a day?