DreamTheaterForums.org Dream Theater Fan Site
Dream Theater => Dream Theater => Topic started by: Skeever on February 20, 2015, 05:01:25 PM
-
My vote would be "average".
-
Same here.
-
Above average for me. It doesn't reach the upper echelon of the greatest of the greats, but it doesn't need to.
-
I voted above average as it is my second favorite DT album behind Awake.
-
I don't even know what's considered average or above average or bad for DT. But simply put, the album is better than the worst but worse than the best, so I put average.
-
It's pretty good. I put it above average. Would I say it's the best ever? Probably not, but it is my favorite from them.
-
I don't even know what's considered average or above average or bad for DT. But simply put, the album is better than the worst but worse than the best, so I put average.
I think you would just determine that by how you rank it in the discography... Something like:
The Best = #1
Above Average = #2-5
Average = #6-7
Below Average = #8-11
The Worst = #12
I would say, at this point, above average. Which really surprises me. I didn't know from the start what to make of this album... I'm a definite Portnoy fan on the production, drumming and vocal fronts. But I must admit that the two non-Portnoy albums are certainly above average. Maybe there are ways in which the band's songwriting improves without MP's presence. Hate to say it, because I love the guy, but ADTOE and DT12 are really good.
It took me a long time to get there. Perhaps it was because it was the first DT album whose release I awaited, and it didn't exactly meet my expectations at first, particularly with regard to sound quality. Over time, though, it grew on me, and when I returned to it a few weeks ago after having not listened to it for probably well over six months, it really jumped in my rankings. It's a solid disc all the way through, and it probably helps that it was the soundtrack to the beginning of one of the best years so far of my life. So, yeah, above average, at least at this time.
-
It took a few listens before it started to really grow on me. With songs like Illumination Theory and Surrender to Reason, it has become something I listen to much more these days. I definitely rank it above average. Just to put it in perspective with other releases.
The Best DT Album - Images and Words
Above Average - A Dramatic Turn of Events
Average - Black Clouds and Silver Linings
Below Average - Train of Thought
The Worst DT Album - I really can't think of any to put here. Even WDADU has some great songs.
-
I put below average but that's only by DT standards. For most bands this would be the best they could do.
-
I put below average but that's only by DT standards. For most bands this would be the best they could do.
:tup
-
I put below average but that's only by DT standards. For most bands this would be the best they could do.
This. It comes at around #9 or 10 for me, but it is still a good ablum.
-
I put below average but that's only by DT standards. For most bands this would be the best they could do.
Ugh. No offense to you personally, but I hate these kinds of responses. It's so conceited. All it really says is "the worst music I like is still better than the best music you can show me."
-
Yeah. I don't hate DT12 or anything, but there are lots of bands with albums that are way better.
-
I thought it was Top 3 when I first got it.
...but now I think it's mid tier.
Nowhere near terrible but nowhere near perfect either.
A good. latter-period DT.
EDIT : For a band's twelfth studio album - it's pretty damn good come to think of it. Metallica ran completely out of ideas after their 6th album.
-
Yeah. I don't hate DT12 or anything, but there are lots of bands with albums that are way better.
In the grand scheme of music I listen to, DT12 probably isn't in the top 100. No offense to the band, they were for a very long time my absolute, indisputable number 1, but their late efforts are at best called "valiant attempts".
-
I put below average but that's only by DT standards. For most bands this would be the best they could do.
Ugh. No offense to you personally, but I hate these kinds of responses. It's so conceited. All it really says is "the worst music I like is still better than the best music you can show me."
I agree. Sure, thinking that "okay, this one band is always better than most other bands" makes sense in your head just after you first find that one band and your tastes are pretty narrow. But I don't see how you can think this about any band if you have a sizable and diverse music library.
Heck, even just in the prog rock genre, just in the year 2013, at least two artists put out albums that rival or, in my opinion, exceed DT12: Steven Wilson with The Raven That Refused to Sing and Haken with The Mountain. I bet we can find several other albums just from that year in other genres that are near that quality level.
EDIT: I could not even begin to think of what my hypothetical top 100 would look like. I think DT12 would probably make that for me, but probably not my top 50. I don't really know though, that's just intuition.
-
Yeah. I don't hate DT12 or anything, but there are lots of bands with albums that are way better.
In the grand scheme of music I listen to, DT12 probably isn't in the top 100. No offense to the band, they were for a very long time my absolute, indisputable number 1, but their late efforts are at best called "valiant attempts".
Depends on how many albums you've listened to, really. DT12 wouldn't make my top 100 either, but that's not a knock to it at all. There's just so much damn music out there.
And for their twelfth album, DT12 is pretty damn impressive. By this point, most bands would teeter off quite a bit.
-
I put below average but that's only by DT standards. For most bands this would be the best they could do.
Ugh. No offense to you personally, but I hate these kinds of responses. It's so conceited. All it really says is "the worst music I like is still better than the best music you can show me."
I disagree. I don't think it's unreasonable for a DT fan to think that an average DT album (meaning their 6th or 7th best album) is still an above average album.
On a 5-pt scale, 2.5 is average, so anything above that is above average, and I would definitely give DT12 at least 3 stars; probably 3.5.
And for their twelfth album, DT12 is pretty damn impressive. By this point, most bands would teeter off quite a bit.
Agreed. I can't imagine there being a lot of bands whose 12th studio album is as good or better than Dream Theater's. Hell, a lot of bands don't even make it to a 12th studio album!
-
And not just a 12th studio album. It's a 12th studio album done in a regular pace of every couple of years. I haven't seen anybody reach that number of albums and still churn out good material on a regular schedule.
-
Sometimes I take how prolific DT is for granted given that I spend a lot of time in a prog rock headspace dominated by Steven Wilsons and Neal Morses. But y'all are right. Twelve albums, on a regular 2-3 year schedule, with fairly consistent quality (I think we can generally agree that there have been a few dips, but not catastrophic ones) is actually quite impressive!
EDIT:
Ugh. No offense to you personally, but I hate these kinds of responses. It's so conceited. All it really says is "the worst music I like is still better than the best music you can show me."
I disagree. I don't think it's unreasonable for a DT fan to think that an average DT album (meaning their 6th or 7th best album) is still an above average album.
On a 5-pt scale, 2.5 is average, so anything above that is above average, and I would definitely give DT12 at least 3 stars; probably 3.5.
Kev, I understand where you're coming from, but I have to restate my agreement with rumborak. There's a difference between thinking that most or even all of DT's albums are above average and saying something like "For most bands this [below DT average] would be the best they could do." I think a statement like that is just too sweeping and kind of implies that there's a top tier of a select few bands, DT among them, that are capable of producing most of the best material, and then other bands are barely able to reach the mid-low levels of those bands' work, and that's it. I'm sure that's not what TheCountOfNYC meant, but that implicit idea is what somewhat irks me, and I imagine rumbo as well, about that sentence.
-
Well how does DT12 compare with the 12th album of other bands such as Yes, Rush, King Crimson, Pink Floyd, etc?
-
Rush - Hold Your Fire
Yes - Big Generator
Pink Floyd - The Final Cut
King Crimson - The ConstruKction of Light
-
Miles ahead of all of those imo.
-
Below average. If not for WDADU, I *might* have voted for the last option.
-
Voted "below average for DT", as it's #9 in my album ranking. I don't hate it by any means, but I find it kind of underwhelming and unremarkable. I may listen to The Bigger Picture, Behind the Veil or The Looking Glass and think "this is a pretty good song", but nothing on the album makes me go "wow!".
Rush - Hold Your Fire
Yes - Big Generator
Pink Floyd - The Final Cut
King Crimson - The ConstruKction of Light
I don't listen to Yes or Crimson, but I'd take Hold Your Fire over DT12 any day. Tai Shan > Enigma Machine :biggrin: Not sure about The Final Cut though; haven't given that album too many listens.
-
Above average - top 4 for me.
-
I think it's easily their best release since SDOIT (and I like 'em all) and it's the only DT album - besides SFAM - that I usually listen to in its entirety, without skipping any songs. A stellar effort, which has aged very well for me (a lot better than ADTOE) and I still listen to it quite often.
-
Below average, between 9-10 in my ranking.
-
Below average for me too. I would have loved to vote 'worst', but I still like WDaDU less.
-
Rush - Hold Your Fire
Yes - Big Generator
Pink Floyd - The Final Cut
King Crimson - The ConstruKction of Light
I think DT12 compares favorably with those, and better than at least three of them IMO (Hold Your Fire, Big Generator, and The Final Cut).
I rank it above average.
-
Rush - Hold Your Fire
Yes - Big Generator
Pink Floyd - The Final Cut
King Crimson - The ConstruKction of Light
I think DT12 compares favorably with those, and better than at least three of them IMO (Hold Your Fire, Big Generator, and The Final Cut).
I rank it above average.
I am going to say that all of those releases are below average for each band, especially The Final Cut which I would probably consider the worst release of Pink Floyd. Like a couple of people mentioned above, that's not too bad to be 12 albums into your career and release something (DT12) that could be considered above average by a good chunk of your fans.
-
Yes, I certainly agree with all of that.
-
Kev, I understand where you're coming from, but I have to restate my agreement with rumborak. There's a difference between thinking that most or even all of DT's albums are above average and saying something like "For most bands this [below DT average] would be the best they could do." I think a statement like that is just too sweeping and kind of implies that there's a top tier of a select few bands, DT among them, that are capable of producing most of the best material, and then other bands are barely able to reach the mid-low levels of those bands' work, and that's it. I'm sure that's not what TheCountOfNYC meant, but that implicit idea is what somewhat irks me, and I imagine rumbo as well, about that sentence.
I understand. I know some take the "even DT's worst stuff is better than most band's best stuff" approach, which I think is totally silly, but that is not what I am saying. I am merely saying that DT is good enough to where their 6th and 7th best albums are still better than average records in general.
Rush - Hold Your Fire
Yes - Big Generator
Pink Floyd - The Final Cut
King Crimson - The ConstruKction of Light
DT12 is about as good or better than all of those (I slightly prefer Hold Your Fire to it, and think The Final Cut blows).
But to go back to what I said earlier about many bands not even getting to 12 studio albums, consider that legendary bands like Led Zeppelin and Metallica never made it to 12. The Police are considered an all-time great by many, and they have five albums.
-
Below average for me too. I would have loved to vote 'worst', but I still like WDaDU less.
This.
-
Looks like the album is somewhere in the middle, leaning toward "better than most DT" but not decisively so. About what I'd expect. Not as good as their best albums, but still way better than some of the recent ones.
-
Above average for me, i have trust in them. they can blow up our heads and is the right time to them to do it :metal
-
Speaking of going strong after 12 albums, Opeth is currently at 11. After their next album, we can compare it to DT12.
-
Speaking of going strong after 12 albums, Opeth is currently at 11. After their next album, we can compare it to DT12.
How do you like their new sound? As far as I'm concerned, they're finally accessible for my ears, but I hear a lot of people complaining.
-
Definitely above average for me.
-
Actually, well below average.
-
I essentially agree with the RYM ranking. DT12 is somewhere at the top of the big bulk of "ok but not great albums".
-
DT12 is Dream Theater's 12th album. It is abbreviated as DT12, but it is a self titled.
-
Hard to say if it's my favorite, but it's way up there. It's on the same level as Images, Awake, my personalized FII, and a shade above Scenes and Six Degrees.
-
It's average for me. Not a bad album by any stretch, but it doesn't reach the heights of ADTOE or I&W, imo.
It's one of those albums that I don't feel like listening to very often, but when I do listen, I really enjoy it.
-
As can be seen from this thread, the more vocal posters are mostly the ones who don' think highly of the album, poll results notwithstanding. :lol
Also, because of the wording of the poll, above average could actually mean second best. The top option is "the best" not "among the best".
-
the most forgettable, uninspired album they've ever put out. worst. #12 of #12.
-
As can be seen from this thread, the more vocal posters are mostly the ones who don' think highly of the album, poll results notwithstanding.
the most forgettable, uninspired album they've ever put out. worst. #12 of #12.
You two have to be in cahoots. :lol
-
#10 for me, ahead of ADTOE and WDADU. If IT weren't dragged down by the orchestral section, the album might move up one more spot (beating out 8V for #9), but alas. In some ways DT12 is the most consistent album they've had since SFAM--nothing on it inspires active dislike from me, except maybe that AFTR sounds like it was written in ten minutes--but there's an almost complete lack of real impact moments for me. Except for the post-orchestra part of IT, the strongest reaction I have to anything on the album is "that's a pretty good song."
Also, on the how-does-it-compare-to-other-music debate: The flipside of the "running out of ideas" on a twelfth album is that, by album #12, a band should know what they're doing and turn out professional-sounding, consistent records (like this one) in their sleep. Bands earlier in their careers may have more ideas and energy but struggle to harness it (ala WDADU). Also, on the subject of 2013 progpower releases that are way above DT12, Delta's The End of Philosophy tops that list for me.
-
DT is a really strong and solid album. The shorter song structure was something that seemed really challenging for them to do, and they did a great job IMO. That being said, I agree that the album lacks more dynamics, and that the sound production isn't good enough, but it doesn't affect the creativity of the songs overall.
And for DT13 I guess they should take more risks and try something diferent, maybe 'proggier' or 'experimental' than DT12...AND more dynamics, of course.
-
consider that legendary bands like Led Zeppelin and Metallica never made it to 12.
Metallica NEVER made it to 12? Dayamn.. Well, you'll probably end up being right on that one at this rate. :lol
Anyway, I voted above average because I have to give DT12 credit for it's consistency. It's still to early to say for sure, but I think when we look back it will have stood the test of time fairly well. Although I guess that's just how I feel now, hard to know what I'll think in 10 years or whatever. I just feel the whole album didn't really have any duds for me, I actually like all of the tracks for varying reasons, so even if it doesn't really reach the highs of the best albums (although Illumination Theory might be up there with their best IMO), the general consistency of the whole album is quite amazing and brings DT12 into the top half of the albums for me so definitely above average.
-
DT12 is Dream Theater's 12th album. It is abbreviated as DT12, but it is a self titled.
#HopeThisHelp ^KB
-
Metallica NEVER made it to 12? Dayamn.. Well, you'll probably end up being right on that one at this rate. :lol
Well considering it's taken them 7 years so far to release their 10th album and they're all in their early 50s now.
I'm not the only person who thinks their 10th album if it ever emerges will be their last.
-
I say below average. It's got some decent stuff, but I can't really get into it compared to other releases. I wasn't impressed with the album at all when I first heard it, and it has grown on me a bit, but I feel it's rather sub-par.
-
Below Average.
It does have some awesome moments but compared to their past releases, it's not quite there.
-
Metallica NEVER made it to 12? Dayamn.. Well, you'll probably end up being right on that one at this rate. :lol
Well considering it's taken them 7 years so far to release their 10th album and they're all in their early 50s now.
I'm not the only person who thinks their 10th album if it ever emerges will be their last.
They should have stopped at the black album. ;)
-
Above average, for me. To me, it's DT's third best album being I&W and Awake.
-
I don't even know what's considered average or above average or bad for DT. But simply put, the album is better than the worst but worse than the best, so I put average.
Couldn't have said it better.
-
I only played it 8 or 10 times after release and the couple times I've tried to revisit it I have not made it through the whole album. Label
that however you will.
-
My vote would be "average".
-
Not my favourite but definately top 5.
I love the heavier sound of it, kind of a mix between ToT and Images and Words imo...
I think DT has such a varying sound across various albums that its no surprise some people love it and some people think its below average..
-
It would be last if I like WDADU a bit more, but I've only listened to DT12 about 4 times and I just cant listen to the whole thing, I can listen to TEI and maybe 1 or 2 others,
Compared to WDADU which I put down after the first listen :lol
I rated Below average.
-
I just want to say that I was disappointed that Surrender To Reason was not played on the last tour. They could have scrapped OTBOA and added STR. It's clearly one of the better songs they have done during the Mangini era.
-
Better than DT12:
I&W
TOT
ADTOE
Worse than DT12:
WDADU
FII
8VM
SC
BC&SL
The rest are pretty much on par with DT12 (or I just couldn't decide). Went with "better than average". It's still so new that I'm usually more eager to listen to it than any of the other DT albums I've heard dozens, if not hundreds of times. I haven't really worn it out either, since I tend to listen all my albums equally as much, regardless of what I like the most. It might move somewhere closer to average once I get used to the album, I guess only time will tell.
-
Better than DT12:
I&W
TOT
ADTOE
Worse than DT12:
WDADU
FII
8VM
SC
BC&SL
Not even close.
-
At first I thought this album would rank among the best but after all this time, it became a little boring to me. I really like those songs but together they just don't make a too strong album. Maybe that "recording while writing" thing is responsible for this. The mix also ruins the whole experience of the album (I tried to ignore it, but it's impossible haha). So, what could have been the greatest album since Six Degrees, became an average one.
-
Better than DT12:
I&W
TOT
ADTOE
If this is the ranking of your top 3 DT albums, it's identical to mine :D I'm sure lots of people share the same top 3 albums, but it seems to be quite rare to have both I&W and TOT ranked so highly from what I've seen on here.
-
Better than DT12:
I&W
TOT
ADTOE
Worse than DT12:
WDADU
FII
8VM
SC
BC&SL
Not even close.
Sure it is.
-
Rush - Hold Your Fire
Yes - Big Generator
Pink Floyd - The Final Cut
King Crimson - The ConstruKction of Light
DT12 is about as good or better than all of those (I slightly prefer Hold Your Fire to it).
If given a choice between DT12 & Hold Your Fire, I'd listen to HYF all day long.
-
Better than DT12:
I&W
TOT
ADTOE
If this is the ranking of your top 3 DT albums, it's identical to mine :D I'm sure lots of people share the same top 3 albums, but it seems to be quite rare to have both I&W and TOT ranked so highly from what I've seen on here.
I haven't really given my top 3 DT ranking much thought until today, but yeah, I think it is :P. It's a bit hard to rank the albums because they are so different from each other, but albums like FII, SC and 8VM (even though the title track is one of my favourite songs ever) all have a few songs that I don't like all that much. TOT, on the other hand, is pretty much flawless all the way through imo. (But I do still love FII, SC and 8VM ;))
-
Worst....by a long way i.m.o.
-
Better than DT12:
I&W
TOT
ADTOE
Worse than DT12:
WDADU
FII
8VM
SC
BC&SL
Not even close.
Sure it is.
Nope.
Octavarium > DT12
-
Not by a long shot. 8V is one of DT's most inconsistent albums, and has a more mediocre track-listing with the exception of the title track, especially in comparison to DT12.
-
It'll be interesting to see where they sit on the list being compiled by 425 .............I'd rate DT12 much higher than Octavarium.
-
I have been a fan since IAW was first released. Followed every up and down.
Octavarium is DT's greatest achievement...bar none. To this day, when I am in a DT mood, I reach for 8V as an ultimate start to finish DT listening experience even before I will reach for IAW, Awake, SFAM or SDOIT.
DT12 is fantastic, and the best album they've released since 8V...but I don't think they will ever top 8V.
-
Octavarium > DT12
The only mistake with this is not adding more arrows. :tup Not even a contest.
-
Not by a long shot. 8V is one of DT's most inconsistent albums, and has a more mediocre track-listing with the exception of the title track, especially in comparison to DT12.
I think Surrender to Reason & Along For The Ride are some of DT's weakest songs and Illumination Theory is one of their poorest epics.
-
Not by a long shot. 8V is one of DT's most inconsistent albums, and has a more mediocre track-listing with the exception of the title track, especially in comparison to DT12.
I think Surrender to Reason & Along For The Ride are some of DT's weakest songs and Illumination Theory is one of their poorest epics.
I think you should suffer a Starbucks coma. ;)
-
Had another band released it, it would have been really good. For DT standards, it's pretty average.
-
Not by a long shot. 8V is one of DT's most inconsistent albums, and has a more mediocre track-listing with the exception of the title track, especially in comparison to DT12.
This completely.
If the title track weren't on Octavarium, I would never ever listen to it.
-
DT12 is a great album. I really enjoy it, but every bit of the criticism on the production is well warranted. It just doesn't sound good. In fact, it's only slightly better than WDADU in terms of production. That's not an exaggeration.
-
Not by a long shot. 8V is one of DT's most inconsistent albums, and has a more mediocre track-listing with the exception of the title track, especially in comparison to DT12.
This completely.
If the title track weren't on Octavarium, I would never ever listen to it.
Same here. It's *the* album for me that exemplifies the "saved by the epic" stretch they had for a while.
-
I like about half of Octavarium.
The title tracks pulls it down, if anything.
-
I like about half of Octavarium.
The title tracks pulls it down, if anything.
O_o
-
I like about half of Octavarium.
The title tracks pulls it down, if anything.
I agree.
-
I like about half of Octavarium.
The title tracks pulls it down, if anything.
I agree.
O_O
-
"Hey let's end a decent epic with the most boring finale we could think of! Sounds like a great idea!"
-
"Hey let's end a decent epic with the most boring finale we could think of! Sounds like a great idea!"
You just described IT.
-
He didn't describe either one of them.
In fact, I don't think it describes any of their epics. Not sure what is so boring.
-
I think that the entirety of Razor's Edge is just a huge letdown after the amazing climax at the end of Intervals, and the guitar solo is nothing special.
-
Well, if that's how you feel.
Doesn't compute for me. I think it is an absolutely stellar payoff, no letdown at all.
-
"Hey let's end a decent epic with the most boring finale we could think of! Sounds like a great idea!"
Hey. Don't diss Kansas.
-
Although I like Razor's Edge, I do feel that the end of Intervals makes for a much stronger climax.
-
Razor's edge is epic and I think one of JPs finest moments.
Octavarium is a decent album. In fact the only song that pulls it down the Answer Lies Within which is pretty much the worst DT song in the history of everything.
I still can't make my mind up about DTXII. I can't get past the god awful production/mixing.
-
"Hey let's end a decent epic with the most boring finale we could think of! Sounds like a great idea!"
Hey. Don't diss Kansas.
I'LL DISS KANSAS ALL I WANT DON'T TELL ME WHAT TO DO
In all seriousness, I was never too big on Kansas, so I'm afraid I don't know which song you're talking about.
-
The Raxor's Edge section is fantastic and ITPOE, TMOLS, and IT have each failed miserably in their endings.
-
"Hey let's end a decent epic with the most boring finale we could think of! Sounds like a great idea!"
Hey. Don't diss Kansas.
I'LL DISS KANSAS ALL I WANT DON'T TELL ME WHAT TO DO
In all seriousness, I was never too big on Kansas, so I'm afraid I don't know which song you're talking about.
Go to YouTube, listen to Kansas' "The Wall" from 4:16 on. You'll see what I mean :lol
-
There's very little if any similarity aside from the very very end.
-
I would say from 4:16 on it is virtually identical. Before that of course not.
-
If by "virtually" you mean "basically not at all". The only similarity is from 4:35 - 4:40, which does sound very similar.
-
Meh. Ever since there was a sizable percentage of DTFers vehemently denying the Tchaikovsky part in IT (and only shut up when Eren himself acknowledged it), I have given up on trying to convince people of similarities. If you don't hear it, oh well.
-
Razor's Edge is very strong, in my opinion, and I love ITPOE ending, epic as hell.
Even the epics I don't really like, such as SDOIT and IT both have great endings. DT knows how to finish their longer songs right.
-
I would say from 4:16 on it is virtually identical. Before that of course not.
I don't think it's "identical" but I definitely hear strong similarities. Especially the last notes of the song. That sounds exactly like the last few notes of Octavarium. It makes sense though since throughout that song there are similarities to other bands and references to other things.
-
"Hey let's end a decent epic with the most boring finale we could think of! Sounds like a great idea!"
You just described IT.
:rollin
TRUTH.
-
I would put IT and 8V on par if it weren't for the absolutely terrible Full Circle section. DT's worst lyrics by far.
-
I disagree. A bit cheesy maybe but nowhere near as bad as TcoT
-
I disagree. A bit cheesy maybe but nowhere near as bad as TcoT
Well, yeah I forgot about that. They are both at the bottom of the barrel, IMO.
-
So passion and emotion is boring? Yeah, there was a bad ass ripping instrumental section right before it, but the ending to IT is great. Nothing boring about it. And Blob is right, little to no similarity with The Wall besides the very end. Definitely not identical. And I've heard the Tarnowwhatever and acknowledged the likeness, so I'm not one of the defenders of that.
-
"Hey let's end a decent epic with the most boring finale we could think of! Sounds like a great idea!"
You just described IT.
:rollin
TRUTH.
Yeah, I did. And Octavarium too. Huh. Who knew.