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Dream Theater => Dream Theater => Topic started by: chaossystem on December 10, 2014, 01:56:44 PM

Title: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: chaossystem on December 10, 2014, 01:56:44 PM
It has been mentioned on a previous thread that this seems to be the trend that Dream Theater is following.

I don't know if that means that at least a few of you think that the band is depending on longer, more elaborately arranged tracks to boost album and/or ticket sales or what.

Given the way at least half of you are voting in the polls, as well as the opinions that being posted by many of you, that seems to be the case.

I also know that it's not always easy to define what it is that makes one say "This is why I like this song, but I don't like THAT one."

For me, at least, it doesn't always depend on length, or arrangement.

I think it's interesting to note that on their last two albums, they did things in kind of an opposite way between the two: "Dramatic" has several songs that are over ten minutes in length, but NONE that are fifteen or more, while "12" is made up of tracks that are all under eight minutes long, except for the epic, which is almost twenty minutes, or over twenty, depending on how you count it ("Easter Egg").

A couple of things I would REALLY like to learn from this is: How do you define an "epic?" Is BAI  (for example) an epic even though it's not quite thirteen minutes long, or does HAVE to be at least TWENTY? Personally I think Metropolis-at about nine and half minutes-is PLENTY long enough to be considered an epic.

One more thing I would like to ask is: Are there some of you who would still love the band if they kept all of their songs under ten minutes in length, or are ALL of you "dependent" on the epics?
Or are most of you like me, in that you love everything that DT does, as long as they do it well?

Personally, I LOVE most of the epics, but I also think that they have several shorter-even "radio friendly" length songs-that are every bit as good.

Let's see what you people think!:
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: bosk1 on December 10, 2014, 02:30:40 PM
I don't know if that means that at least a few of you think that the band is depending on longer, more elaborately arranged tracks to boost album and/or ticket sales or what.

Given the way at least half of you are voting in the polls, as well as the opinions that being posted by many of you, that seems to be the case.

For the nth time, stop making stupid, wrong assumptions about the entire forum population.  Just stop.  I will not ask again.

How do you define an "epic?" Is BAI  (for example) an epic even though it's not quite thirteen minutes long, or does HAVE to be at least TWENTY? Personally I think Metropolis-at about nine and half minutes-is PLENTY long enough to be considered an epic.

This topic has been discussed to death.  Any reason you could not use the search function?

Short answer:  There is not a simple, easy answer.  It has to do mainly with song length, but there is no hard, fast cutoff for exactly how long a song must be.  Songs having multiple separate movements can also (but does not have to be) a factor.  At or near 10 minutes is a good "rule of thumb," but isn't necessarily always the line.  Songs like A Change of Seasons, Octavarium, and Six Degrees are clearly epics.  Songs like Another Day, Forsaken, and 6:00 are not.  Songs in between...tough call.  I think many fans would consider the songs that you mentioned to be epics; others would not.

Are there some of you who would still love the band if they kept all of their songs under ten minutes in length, or are ALL of you "dependent" on the epics?

I don't know of even a single fan, on this forum or otherwise, who is "dependent" on the epics.  Surely, there is one out there somewhere, and surely, he or she will now post to let us know.  But by and large, I think most people just like what they like.  Many (but not all) feel that Dream Theater are particularly good at writing epics.  Many of us, for perhaps different reasons, feel that many of the longer epics are some of Dream Theater's best work. 

I know for me personally, for the most part, I really like the vast majority of what Dream Theater does musically.  I think they write at a consistently VERY high level of quality.  So when a song is longer, it often simply means a higher quantity of high quality.  And in addition to that, the band is just good at taking their time to develop various ideas in a song and explore different themes in different ways, which is not always possible in a shorter song, so the longer songs often have extra layers and extra things going on that shorter songs often do not.  That is why songs like A Change Of Seasons, Octavarium, Six Degrees, Metropolis, Bridges In The Sky, and Scarred are in my top 10.  But by the same token, there are also plenty of long songs (In The Presence of Enemies, The Count of Tuscany, Illumination Theory, for example) that I like, but are nowhere near my top 10 or top 20, for that matter.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: JiM-Xtreme on December 10, 2014, 02:35:56 PM
I would certainly not go as far as to say I am "dependant" on the epics, however I will admit that they are always the tracks I look forward to hearing the most whenever a new album comes out.

Also, in terms of which albums I personally rank the highest, I generally put BC&SL at #2 and ToT at #3 or #4, which comprise 6 and 7 songs respectively.

I am just inclined towards the "meatier" songs, I guess. I like it when musical ideas are fully explored and not confined within a short song structure.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: chaossystem on December 10, 2014, 03:30:38 PM
I don't know if that means that at least a few of you think that the band is depending on longer, more elaborately arranged tracks to boost album and/or ticket sales or what.

Given the way at least half of you are voting in the polls, as well as the opinions that being posted by many of you, that seems to be the case.

For the nth time, stop making stupid, wrong assumptions about the entire forum population.  Just stop.  I will not ask again.

How do you define an "epic?" Is BAI  (for example) an epic even though it's not quite thirteen minutes long, or does HAVE to be at least TWENTY? Personally I think Metropolis-at about nine and half minutes-is PLENTY long enough to be considered an epic.

This topic has been discussed to death.  Any reason you could not use the search function?

Short answer:  There is not a simple, easy answer.  It has to do mainly with song length, but there is no hard, fast cutoff for exactly how long a song must be.  Songs having multiple separate movements can also (but does not have to be) a factor.  At or near 10 minutes is a good "rule of thumb," but isn't necessarily always the line.  Songs like A Change of Seasons, Octavarium, and Six Degrees are clearly epics.  Songs like Another Day, Forsaken, and 6:00 are not.  Songs in between...tough call.  I think many fans would consider the songs that you mentioned to be epics; others would not.

Are there some of you who would still love the band if they kept all of their songs under ten minutes in length, or are ALL of you "dependent" on the epics?

I don't know of even a single fan, on this forum or otherwise, who is "dependent" on the epics.  Surely, there is one out there somewhere, and surely, he or she will now post to let us know.  But by and large, I think most people just like what they like.  Many (but not all) feel that Dream Theater are particularly good at writing epics.  Many of us, for perhaps different reasons, feel that many of the longer epics are some of Dream Theater's best work. 

I know for me personally, for the most part, I really like the vast majority of what Dream Theater does musically.  I think they write at a consistently VERY high level of quality.  So when a song is longer, it often simply means a higher quantity of high quality.  And in addition to that, the band is just good at taking their time to develop various ideas in a song and explore different themes in different ways, which is not always possible in a shorter song, so the longer songs often have extra layers and extra things going on that shorter songs often do not.  That is why songs like A Change Of Seasons, Octavarium, Six Degrees, Metropolis, Bridges In The Sky, and Scarred are in my top 10.  But by the same token, there are also plenty of long songs (In The Presence of Enemies, The Count of Tuscany, Illumination Theory, for example) that I like, but are nowhere near my top 10 or top 20, for that matter.

I wasn't making assumptions about anything.
I was asking questions. So if you want to say that my questions are stupid and wrong, that's fine.
You're entitled to your opinion.

But then you actually did answer my questions, which I do appreciate you taking the time for.

I agree with most of what you said, especially in your last paragraph. I would rank some of the songs differently, but you raised some valid points.

I wasn't trying to tell anyone what to think, and I thought I had made it clear that I was asking questions and wanting to know what anyone who chooses to participate thinks.

Sorry I didn't use the search function.

The Reason I got specific about song length is because some of the posts that I read on some of the other threads lead me to believe that for the most part, people on here define an "epic" as being at least CLOSE to 20 min. in length.
I never said that I couldn't be wrong.

Also, I wasn't accusing anyone of being dependent on the epics, I was asking if anyone felt that way.

So I just want to say again that, while I don't appreciate that harsh words that you started with, I do appreciate you taking the time to answer my questions, and  I just wanted to throw this topic open and let people debate about it, as well as like said, to learn what people think in this area.

Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on December 10, 2014, 03:37:04 PM
With the exception of DT12, my favorite songs on their recent albums have tended to be the longer ones. But I wouldn't say that the albums are "saved" by those songs, as that would imply that I don't like the other songs, and for the most part I do.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: lucky7 on December 10, 2014, 03:47:20 PM
I think it comes down to the music, the length of the track hardly matters, but some epics are just great and really show how talented DT are, not to mention some are very memorable.... but then some shorter songs like Hell's Kitchen are a fave for me too.

But when you do a poll on an album for fave track for me the epic may stand above the others...in my opinion.

But as far as being dependent on the epics, I would say no....after all we are fans for all their music.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: fadetoblackdude7 on December 10, 2014, 04:53:57 PM
I wouldn't say I depend on the epics, I love DT's music no matter how long their pieces are.

However, whether it's a coincidence or not, I feel that DT's best/most creative musical ideas typically dwell within the longer pieces.

And whether or not a piece is classified as an 'epic' usually depends on the length, but the quality of the music is important too. Take Learning To Live for example - I think it's in their top 5 most epic tracks and it's only 11:30 in length. That's a 'quality over quantity' scenario.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: bosk1 on December 10, 2014, 04:59:21 PM
So I just want to say again that, while I don't appreciate that harsh words that you started with, I do appreciate you taking the time to answer my questions, and  I just wanted to throw this topic open and let people debate about it, as well as like said, to learn what people think in this area.

Well, it is actually an interesting topic and you raise some interesting questions.  What triggered the harsh response was that, as you have done in other threads, you start off by saying something along the lines of "it seems like most of you think X."  Just don't do that.  You start off by alienating anyone who DOESN'T think that.  And since your assumptions aren't generally correct about what most of the forum thinks, you end up alienating most people. 
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: TheCountOfNYC on December 10, 2014, 05:43:46 PM
Dream Theater has seven songs that are more often than not considered epics with five that are almost always considered epics. For the sake of the discussion we'll go with the seven songs (I'm in the five camp personally). Those songs would be in chronological order: A Mind Beside Itself, A Change of Seasons, Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence, Octavarium, In the Presence of Enemies, The Count of Tuscany, and Illumination Theory. Of those, only ACoS isn't on an album. So I'm gonna go album by album and analyze wether or not they were "saved by the epic" (in my opinion of course).

A Mind Beside Itself (Awake)- This album took awhile to grow on me with AMBI being one of the last songs to click. Awake is a very consistent album meaning that no one song really shines above or stinks up the joint. All of the songs are in the good to great range. This album wasn't saved by the epic because the epic isn't better than the rest. It's just as awesome.

Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence (Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence)- This is a killer album from start to finish. The title track is definitely the standout track, but that's certainly no knock on the rest of the album. The Glass Prison and Blind Faith are classics as well, and Misunderstood, The Great Debate, and Disappear are only slightly below that. This album didn't have to be saved by the epic but SDoIT made the album other worldly.

Octavarium (Octavarium)- This is where many on this forum say the "saved by the epic" mentality started, but I don't think this album was. I have made it very clear on here that 8VM is my favorite DT song by a lot. The amount of thought that went into it is amazing, and the end result is one of the greatest pieces of music in history. But to say an album with The Root of All Evil, These Walls, Panic Attack, and Sacrificed Sons is only good because of one long song is ludicrous. This is another case of the epic being the clear standout on a overall fantastic album.

In The Presence of Enemies (Systematic Chaos)- This is the closest I say an album has come to being saved by the epic. This is a weaker effort than the band usually puts out, but it's still a fantastic album. With that said, ITPoE is easily the best song on it because the rest is overall just ok. Except for the fact that it isn't. This may be controversial, but Forsaken, Constant Motion, and Repentance are all great songs. Prophets of War gets way more hate than it deserves, and is actually a very enjoyable song if given a chance. The Dark Eternal Night is also a fun song. And The Ministry of Lost Souls is very close to the top tier of Dream Theater songs and has one of their best instrumental sections. The epic this time around is a little weaker. It's the best song on the disc, but to say it saved a weak album is just plain wrong.

The Count of Tuscany (Black Clouds & Silver Linings)- This album gets a ridiculous amount of hate but TCoT is generally liked. Once again the clear standout, but this album also has A Nightmare to Remember and The Shattered Fortress. Also, The Best of Times is vastly underrated and has one of John Petrucci's best solos. Wither and A Rite of Passage are good songs as well, although nowhere near the quality of the four long songs. But with four great and long songs, this album isn't only saved by the longest of the bunch.

Time for some controversy.

Illumination Theory (Dream Theater)- A big part of what makes these long songs so great is that they usually close the album and offer a great ending to a great group of songs. Learning to Live, Trial of Tears, Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence, In the Name of God, Octavarium, In The Presence of Enemies Pt. 2, The Count of Tuscany, and Illumination Theory are all the longest and last song on their album. With the self titled album, you have eight short songs that are all about the same quality with Surrender to Reason probably being the best of those. The last song is the 22 minute and 17 second (19:15 if you don't count the easter egg) Illumination Theory. The big payoff. But it leaves a lot to be desired. In this case, the epic actually brings the album down, because the climax and resolution to the collective journey that is the album isn't as strong this time. The album feels incomplete because it didn't end well. Illumination Theory is a good song, but not strong enough to enhance a generally decent album and brings it down to ok level.

Overall, Dream Theater has never relied on their long song to make their album good. They just are really good at writing music. They don't have a bad song. With so much quality music, quantity does start to come into play. And 20 minutes of amazing music trumps 8 minutes of amazing music any day. Also, with progressive rock, it's all about the adventure that the music goes. There's more exploration possible when a song is longer. The Count of Tuscany can go to more places than The Enemy Inside can. It doesn't mean the short songs are bad, because they're great. It's just a different writing process. In the end, I'll listen to anything Dream Theater puts out, but I look forward to the journey that their longer songs bring me on just a little more than the shorter songs. Still, it's just a small part of the overall journey that the whole album takes you on, and that's always the best 75 minutes of my life.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: Mosh on December 10, 2014, 05:59:48 PM
The epics are definitely the clear favorites but I wouldn't say the band depends on them. Octavarium and DT12 maybe had fans who only really liked the epics but there are also plenty of fans who enjoy the whole albums.

If you want an artist who better fits this bill, try Neal Morse. It's almost reached a point where you could listen to just the epic on an album and disregard everything else. This is less true on his collaborations like Transatlantic and Flying Colors, but even then the focus (especially in TA) seems to be on the epics.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: chaossystem on December 10, 2014, 06:36:34 PM
There seems to be a pretty even split regarding "Illumination Theory."

Initially it appeared to be one of their universally-loved songs, but now it appears that about half of you on here agree with me:
while it is a good song, it is not one of the best things they've ever done.
I actually like the ending, but I think it would have been better if the "Easter egg" was either omitted or included as an entirely separate track.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: Randaran on December 10, 2014, 07:03:42 PM
For me, the cutoff for an epic is around 20 minutes, though there is some leeway in that. It also needs to have multiple movements, whether they are explicitly named or not. For example, I would not consider BTBAM's Swim to the Moon to be an epic despite its 18 minute runtime, as it follows the standard verse-chorus-verse-chorus-bridge-chorus structure (with some twists in the verses, but not enough to completely change the structure).

With DT, I am also in the 'five epics' camp. I also do not like the epics nearly as much as most seem to: though Octavarium is my #1 DT song, and ITPOE is in the top 20, the others are in the mid-thirties or lower. I prefer the 10-15 minute 'mini-epics', as these tend to showcase DT's songwriting strengths more effectively. DT songs longer than that usually feel like a bunch of different musical ideas thrown into one track rather than a single coherent work.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: TheGreatPretender on December 10, 2014, 07:22:48 PM
Personally, for me length doesn't really matter, it's the structure that defines an epic. I mean, ideally, there needs to be enough time to digest every single bit of music, so an epic typically has to have length, but as far as I'm concerned, Learning to Live is an epic, BAI is an epic, Trial of Tears is an Epic, they all have not only length, but also they're extremely progressive, and the music changes and grows into something new and great as the song progresses, that's far more important than the length of a song. I mean, A Nightmare to Remember is 15 minutes long, but it's heavy parts that bookend the song are very concise and similar, and so as a result, I wouldn't call that song an epic.
Whereas The Dance of Eternity is constantly changing and growing into something new as it goes on, so even short of 7 minutes, I consider that instrumental an epic. Mini epic, at least.

But no, there's no "Saved by the epic" going on. If DT12 had 2 or 3 more short songs instead of Illumination Theory, it would still be a fantastic album.
OTBOA, its best songs aren't epics. BC&SL, the epic in it is just as inconsistent as the rest of it. SC is fantastic all the way through.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: fischermasamune on December 10, 2014, 07:35:25 PM
How tall should someone be to be considered a tall person?

All about names and conventions, I guess, with grey areas.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: BlobVanDam on December 10, 2014, 07:54:18 PM
I don't think any of their albums are saved by the epics.
People mention Octavarium, but I love much of that album just as much or more than the title track (and I think the title track is amazing).
I love ITPOE too, but it's not near my favourites on SC.
I don't think there is a clear epic on BCASL, as that's an album of epics.
ADTOE doesn't have a clear epic, but that's pretty balanced overall.
And in the case of DT12, it's not saved by the epic. Nope, not even the epic could save that album. :P

Yet again I think this is a case of not reading and understanding DTF at all.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: TheGreatPretender on December 10, 2014, 07:56:55 PM
I don't think any of their albums are saved by the epics.

To clarify, you are saying that the albums don't need saving, because they're already good, right? The way you phrased it sounds like you're saying that the albums so bad that even the epics can't save them.  :lol
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: BlobVanDam on December 10, 2014, 07:59:21 PM
I don't think any of their albums are saved by the epics.

To clarify, you are saying that the albums don't need saving, because they're already good, right? The way you phrased it sounds like you're saying that the albums so bad that even the epics can't save them.  :lol

Nope, I mean the albums are all strong enough that they don't need the epic to save them. I thought my opinions on the individual songs would have clarified that! I'm much more into the shorter songs than many people, so I don't put the epics on a pedestal.
In the case of DT12 though, well that's another matter. :biggrin:
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: ThatOneGuy2112 on December 10, 2014, 08:11:32 PM
I don't have a standard cut-off point for how long a song should be to be considered an epic. Other factors are considered, such as having various movements within them, though that in itself is not a requirement. I really only consider ACOS, SDOIT, 8V, ITPOE, TCOT, and IT to be their epics. Some people are probably gonna cry foul for including TCOT, but whatever, it makes the cut in my book.

8V is really the first DT album that comes to mind when it comes to being "saved by the epic". The rest of the album just fringes on being average, but the title track is so far and away more amazing than the rest of the songs, it's insane.

TCOT comes pretty close to "saving" BC&SL as well, as it is such a fantastic song overall, though not quite 8V level for me.

Can't say DT12 was saved by its epic. The rest of the track listing is still pretty fantastic. IT  closes the album amazingly; it's the icing on the cake.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: rumborak on December 10, 2014, 09:59:45 PM
I actually coined that phrase many years ago, and to me it referred to the 8V-BCSL era, where the epics really saved the enjoyment of the albums for me.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: erwinrafael on December 11, 2014, 12:13:44 AM
I don't think DT's albums are saved by the epic. I think it is better to say that DT just really knows how to write good long songs with many transitions.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: puppyonacid on December 11, 2014, 02:14:54 AM
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Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: RaiseTheKnife on December 11, 2014, 03:36:02 AM



As a forum user, I'm going to say here and now that I am not making any assumptions about your character or personality. What I will say is that I find your posts and posting style extremely irritating and arrogant. The questions you pose almost come across like "I think all the users here are idiots. Let's see who agrees or if any idiots disagree."


Arrogant?  Not my impression at all.  Although I agree about the "poll littering."

Chaos has taken a TON of flak lately (from me included, see above), but he's taken it all in good stride and good spirit I think.  It appears that he is simply trying to reach a purer understanding of DT fandom.   This sometimes means lumping things together into generalities to determine a more finite answer out of the wash.   Whether or not this can be or is worthwhile to achieve is another topic.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: ? on December 11, 2014, 03:55:55 AM
I'm in the minotrity, but I&W, FII, TOT and ADTOE are the only albums on which the longest song is my favorite. I enjoy most of DT's 10-14-minute songs, but the only "big" epic (over 20 minutes long) that I love is ACOS, so I can't agree that the later albums have been saved by the epics - in fact, they usually drag the albums down IMO. :P I think the 90s albums and ADTOE had a good balance between shorter and longer songs.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: wolfking on December 11, 2014, 03:58:03 AM
One more thing I would like to ask is: Are there some of you who would still love the band if they kept all of their songs under ten minutes in length, or are ALL of you "dependent" on the epics?
Or are most of you like me, in that you love everything that DT does, as long as they do it well?

Well, the first part of this statement to me is invalid, as DT are a band that ventue into long song territory.  I don't think DT would be DT if all their songs were under 10 minutes, that's a different band.

Also, I don't see how anyone could be 'dependant' on epics.  That doesn't make much sense to me.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: Skeever on December 11, 2014, 04:59:42 AM
I mentioned this idea in the other thread, but I don't totally agree with it. Here's why:

1. It's not true for the first 6 albums. At all.
2. For the second 6:

Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: puppyonacid on December 11, 2014, 05:01:02 AM
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Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: Skeever on December 11, 2014, 05:23:40 AM
I also am going to throw this out there, and see what people think: Length doesn't always make something an epic.

To me, an epic is more about the number of different musical ideas and sections seeming together in a cohesive whole that makes the listener feel like he's been on a long journey once the song is finished. It has nothing to do with an arbitrary number, i.e. "10 minutes and up is an epic".

Queen's "Bohemian Rhapsody" is just barely 6 minutes, but it's just as epic as anything DT have done. Even DT's "Learning to Live" is extremely epic despite being only around 10 minutes long, which would just make it a normal song these days. Compare those genuinely epic songs to something like "A Nightmare to Remember" where, sure, the song is very long - but it's mostly just the same or very similar musical ideas over and over again. After listening to ANtR, I really can't say I feel like I've "been" anywhere.

There's a difference  between "epic" and "normally structured song with a 5 minute solo between the 2nd chorus and third verse". A lot of DT's old songs were more genuinely "epic". A lot of DT's new songs are just normally structured songs with longer intros and solo sections. There's nothing wrong with that, of course, but that doesn't make them epics.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: Outcrier on December 11, 2014, 06:17:49 AM
I mentioned this idea in the other thread, but I don't totally agree with it. Here's why:
  • Train of Thought - In the Name of God is the best song, but is it an epic? Are there other epics on the album? I'm just not sure. Not saved by the epic.
  • Octavarium - This one is indeed "saved by the epic". Not much else to see here aside from the title track. SAVED BY THE EPIC.
  • Systematic Chaos - Well, this is not a very good album, but there is an epic. However even the epic is probably my least favorite DT epic, so I can't say it saves anything. Not saved by the epic.
  • Black Clouds - I would say The Count of Tuscany is the only song on this album I enjoy. SAVED BY THE EPIC.
  • A Dramatic Turn - The majority of this album is pretty good, so no.
  • Dream Theater - On par with Systematic Chaos for me. Not a great album, and the epic does little to change that. Not saved by the epic.

My only disagreement about this list is that i don't think Black Clouds is saved by TCOT or any song at all :-\
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: Sycsa on December 11, 2014, 06:58:20 AM
"Saved by the epic" - it's a though I often associated with classic prog.
(https://cdn.meme.am/instances/500x/38268701.jpg)
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: Dublagent66 on December 11, 2014, 08:01:40 AM
 :lol  Yeah, the length of a song doesn't automatically make it good and "epic" can mean several things.  For example, Illumination Theory technically does fit the definition of "epic" but not really in a good way as the slang #5 definition would suggest.

1.  Noting or pertaining to a long poetic composition, usually centered upon a hero, in which a series of great achievements or events is narrated in elevated style:
    "Homer's Iliad is an epic poem."

2.  Resembling or suggesting such poetry:
    "an epic novel on the founding of the country."

3.  Heroic; majestic; impressively great:
    "the epic events of the war."

4. Of unusually great size or extent:
   "a crime wave of epic proportions."

5.  Slang. Spectacular; very impressive; awesome:
    "Their burgers and fries are epic!"


I mentioned this idea in the other thread, but I don't totally agree with it. Here's why:

1. It's not true for the first 6 albums. At all.
2. For the second 6:
  • Train of Thought - In the Name of God is the best song, but is it an epic? Are there other epics on the album? I'm just not sure. Not saved by the epic.
  • Octavarium - This one is indeed "saved by the epic". Not much else to see here aside from the title track. SAVED BY THE EPIC.
  • Systematic Chaos - Well, this is not a very good album, but there is an epic. However even the epic is probably my least favorite DT epic, so I can't say it saves anything. Not saved by the epic.
  • Black Clouds - I would say The Count of Tuscany is the only song on this album I enjoy. SAVED BY THE EPIC.
  • A Dramatic Turn - The majority of this album is pretty good, so no.
  • Dream Theater - On par with Systematic Chaos for me. Not a great album, and the epic does little to change that. Not saved by the epic.


I agree with most of this.  Although, I do rank SC higher than DT12 and BC&SL does have a few other songs going for it beside TCOT.  ANTR (for the most part), AROP, and Wither.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: hefdaddy42 on December 11, 2014, 09:00:48 AM
The only album that I would describe as "saved by the epic" is Octavarium.  The title track is amazing, but the rest of the album is average at best.

Also, although most people classify ITPOE as an epic, and it is certainly long enough, it doesn't FEEL like an epic to me.  It just feels like a really long song.  I mean, I like it, but it doesn't feel the same as ACOS, 8VM, or 6DOIT to me.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: rumborak on December 11, 2014, 09:10:56 AM
In my book BCSL was definitely saved by the Count. SC, well, that whole album isn't all that great, but ITPOE is probably still the best track.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: Another_Won on December 11, 2014, 09:18:03 AM
I also am going to throw this out there, and see what people think: Length doesn't always make something an epic.

To me, an epic is more about the number of different musical ideas and sections seeming together in a cohesive whole that makes the listener feel like he's been on a long journey once the song is finished. It has nothing to do with an arbitrary number, i.e. "10 minutes and up is an epic".

Queen's "Bohemian Rhapsody" is just barely 6 minutes, but it's just as epic as anything DT have done. Even DT's "Learning to Live" is extremely epic despite being only around 10 minutes long, which would just make it a normal song these days. Compare those genuinely epic songs to something like "A Nightmare to Remember" where, sure, the song is very long - but it's mostly just the same or very similar musical ideas over and over again. After listening to ANtR, I really can't say I feel like I've "been" anywhere.

There's a difference  between "epic" and "normally structured song with a 5 minute solo between the 2nd chorus and third verse". A lot of DT's old songs were more genuinely "epic". A lot of DT's new songs are just normally structured songs with longer intros and solo sections. There's nothing wrong with that, of course, but that doesn't make them epics.

good points here :tup

I like the idea that after one has listened to an epic they feel like they've "been" somewhere else.  To me, that is more of a determining factor as to whether something is an epic or not more than simply being long.

I didn't realize that Bohemian Rhapsody was so short (relatively speaking).

As for the OP's question, TheCountOfNYC really answers that.  I would say the only DT release that was saved by the epic is the Change of Seasons EP.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: BlobVanDam on December 11, 2014, 09:25:02 AM
There's not a single DT album where I'd say the epic is that much better than at least a couple of other songs on the album.

On the vast majority of DT albums even from IaW (and arguably WDADU), the longest song is overall considered the favourite of the album, regardless of whether it exceeds this imaginary arbitrary line of what DTF has agreed on as "epics". The longest songs are almost always considered the better songs of the album, but they're never dis-proportionally better that they're "saving" an album. I think it's just a matter of the longest being the favourite, combined with a bleak jaded fan outlook on a low opinion of an album.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: TheGreatPretender on December 11, 2014, 09:27:40 AM
As for the OP's question, TheCountOfNYC really answers that.  I would say the only DT release that was saved by the epic is the Change of Seasons EP.

Yeah, but all the covers on that album, I pretty much consider to be bonus material. I've actually never heard of any CD that consisted of one studio song, and the remained consisting of live covers, so in itself, it's very unusual and hard to classify. It was supposed to be an album, but was forced an EP classifcation upon because of lack of original material. In the context of the Octavarium, it was counted as a live album. Like I said, I consider the live songs on it to be bonus material to fill CD space and make it worth the purchase, but the whole thing could even be considered like two releases in one.
Anyway my point is, when the whole purpose of it was the epic, it's hard to save that the album is saved by it, because without it, the album wouldn't have been released at all.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: RoeDent on December 11, 2014, 09:58:29 AM
I think it's safe to say that, pre-release, the epics are among the most anticipated songs on any album that has them.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: Another_Won on December 11, 2014, 10:03:51 AM
As for the OP's question, TheCountOfNYC really answers that.  I would say the only DT release that was saved by the epic is the Change of Seasons EP.

Yeah, but all the covers on that album, I pretty much consider to be bonus material. I've actually never heard of any CD that consisted of one studio song, and the remained consisting of live covers, so in itself, it's very unusual and hard to classify. It was supposed to be an album, but was forced an EP classifcation upon because of lack of original material. In the context of the Octavarium, it was counted as a live album. Like I said, I consider the live songs on it to be bonus material to fill CD space and make it worth the purchase, but the whole thing could even be considered like two releases in one.
Anyway my point is, when the whole purpose of it was the epic, it's hard to save that the album is saved by it, because without it, the album wouldn't have been released at all.
Fully agree.  ACoS is probably the only one that even comes close for me.  You're right, though, with what you point out it almost can't be considered.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: bosk1 on December 11, 2014, 10:13:24 AM
Dream Theater has seven songs that are more often than not considered epics with five that are almost always considered epics. For the sake of the discussion we'll go with the seven songs (I'm in the five camp personally). Those songs would be in chronological order: A Mind Beside Itself, A Change of Seasons, Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence, Octavarium, In the Presence of Enemies, The Count of Tuscany, and Illumination Theory.

Unfortunately, no.  Your premise if flawed since both the band and a large chunk of the fanbase would consider them to have more than 7 epics.  Not to mention the fact that A Mind Beside Itself is NOT an epic, since it is a suite of three short, non-epic songs. 

Fortunately, your post is "saved by the discussion of epics" after this initial misstep.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: Another_Won on December 11, 2014, 10:47:06 AM
Dream Theater has seven songs that are more often than not considered epics with five that are almost always considered epics. For the sake of the discussion we'll go with the seven songs (I'm in the five camp personally). Those songs would be in chronological order: A Mind Beside Itself, A Change of Seasons, Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence, Octavarium, In the Presence of Enemies, The Count of Tuscany, and Illumination Theory.

Unfortunately, no.  Your premise if flawed since both the band and a large chunk of the fanbase would consider them to have more than 7 epics.  Not to mention the fact that A Mind Beside Itself is NOT an epic, since it is a suite of three short, non-epic songs. 

Fortunately, your post is "saved by the discussion of epics" after this initial misstep.
While AMBI doesn't fit the strict definition of an epic,  it gets thrown into the bunch much the same way the 12-step suite would.  I guess you wouldn't consider that to be an epic either?  Would you consider the DT epics to just be the seven he mentioned just without AMBI?

 . . . oh and "saved by the discussion of epics" :lol
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: hefdaddy42 on December 11, 2014, 11:01:11 AM
Not sure why anyone would consider the 12-step suite an epic.  It is a collection of songs.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: TheGreatPretender on December 11, 2014, 11:09:56 AM
Not sure why anyone would consider the 12-step suite an epic.  It is a collection of songs.

It is an epic though, in the same way that Metropolis Part 2 would be considered an epic. When experienced in its entirety, it's a grand (albeit, mostly really heavy) journey, with a ton of nuggets and recurring themes.

Though if you ask me, I'd say the same thing about SDOIT. It's an epic in the same way as SFAM, being the second half of a double album, it's essentially a 40 minute concept album in and of itself. I know DT refers to it as a song, but honestly, to me that comes off as almost a bragging rights thing, to say, "We have a 40+ minute song, that's how prog we are." I'm not gonna argue with people who consider it one song, but personally, if I were to, let's say, list my top 50, I'd consider Solitary Shell, TTTSTA, etc. to be separate entries.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: hefdaddy42 on December 11, 2014, 11:42:47 AM
Not sure why anyone would consider the 12-step suite an epic.  It is a collection of songs.

It is an epic though, in the same way that Metropolis Part 2 would be considered an epic.
Yes, they are both "an epic" in the same way - neither is an epic.

Though if you ask me, I'd say the same thing about SDOIT. It's an epic in the same way as SFAM, being the second half of a double album, it's essentially a 40 minute concept album in and of itself. I know DT refers to it as a song, but honestly, to me that comes off as almost a bragging rights thing, to say, "We have a 40+ minute song, that's how prog we are." I'm not gonna argue with people who consider it one song, but personally, if I were to, let's say, list my top 50, I'd consider Solitary Shell, TTTSTA, etc. to be separate entries.
Not sure what to tell you.  It's one song, and has always been described as such even before the album was released.  It's not NOT one song just because you don't like that it's one song.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: TheGreatPretender on December 11, 2014, 11:45:57 AM
Not sure what to tell you.  It's one song, and has always been described as such even before the album was released.  It's not NOT one song just because you don't like that it's one song.

Well, according to Greatest Hit compilation, TTTSTA, and Solitary Shell, are also both one song each, so apparently SDOIT is one song that has a bunch of other solitary songs within it.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: hefdaddy42 on December 11, 2014, 11:50:03 AM
Not sure what to tell you.  It's one song, and has always been described as such even before the album was released.  It's not NOT one song just because you don't like that it's one song.

Well, according to Greatest Hit compilation, TTTSTA, and Solitary Shell, are also both one song each, so apparently SDOIT is one song that has a bunch of other solitary songs within it.
I wasn't aware that radio single edits are the defining characteristics of songs.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: TheGreatPretender on December 11, 2014, 11:59:30 AM
I wasn't aware that radio single edits are the defining characteristics of songs.

What does them being radio single edits have anything to do with the fact that they're songs? They're on the album, they're both separate entities which make up a part of the "21 other pretty cool songs", so they're two pretty cool songs, as according to Mike Portnoy. They're not labeled, "Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence - IV. The Test That Stumped Them All" and "Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence - VI. Solitary Shell" to give any indication that they might be excerpts of some other song. It's just "The Test That Stumped Them All," and "Solitary Shell." Which are both pretty cool songs.
Aside from that, you know what often is a defining characteristic of a song? The fact that it's its own separate track on the CD. ACOS wasn't divided into its movements, neither was 8VM, and even Illumination Theory, which has some of the most concise breaks I've ever heard between movements of an epic, is kept in tact as one track. Yet SDOIT is divided into 8 tracks like an album, rather than one single song.
I don't understand why everything has to be so cut and dry with you. Some things just aren't always clearly defined. What's wrong with that?
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: TheCountOfNYC on December 11, 2014, 12:05:38 PM
Dream Theater has seven songs that are more often than not considered epics with five that are almost always considered epics. For the sake of the discussion we'll go with the seven songs (I'm in the five camp personally). Those songs would be in chronological order: A Mind Beside Itself, A Change of Seasons, Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence, Octavarium, In the Presence of Enemies, The Count of Tuscany, and Illumination Theory.

Unfortunately, no.  Your premise if flawed since both the band and a large chunk of the fanbase would consider them to have more than 7 epics.  Not to mention the fact that A Mind Beside Itself is NOT an epic, since it is a suite of three short, non-epic songs. 

Fortunately, your post is "saved by the discussion of epics" after this initial misstep.

I don't consider AMBI to be an epic either nor do I consider TCoT to be an epic. I only consider ACoS, SFoIT, 8VM, ItPoE, and IT to be DT epics. I do know that I have seen quite a few people on here say the other two songs mentioned above are epics along with songs like Metropolis, ToT, and ItNoG. I wanted to give an analysis of more than four songs since ACoS isn't on an album but I didn't want to delve into every song that could possibly be considered an epic. I feel that more people on here include AMBI and TCoT with the epics than any of their other longer songs so I decided that for the sake of discussion and analysis, I would include those two as well. I apologize if I'm wrong, but I was simply going by what I have seen since joining this forum.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: TheGreatPretender on December 11, 2014, 12:10:29 PM
Well, MP as I recall, always described songs like ITNOG, ToT and Finally Free as epics. In fact, there was an interview or something I remember reading, where he basically described most Dream Theater albums as always closing with the epic at the very end. And it's when I realized that aside from a couple of exceptions, their albums always close with their longest songs, (even though technically, if you remove the "radio drama" ending of Finally Free, it's actually shorter than Home).
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: TheCountOfNYC on December 11, 2014, 12:44:05 PM
Well, MP as I recall, always described songs like ITNOG, ToT and Finally Free as epics. In fact, there was an interview or something I remember reading, where he basically described most Dream Theater albums as always closing with the epic at the very end. And it's when I realized that aside from a couple of exceptions, their albums always close with their longest songs, (even though technically, if you remove the "radio drama" ending of Finally Free, it's actually shorter than Home).

It's still shorter than Home. Home runs at 12:53. Finally Free runs at 11:59. But I realized this as well. Eight albums close with the longest song (IaW FII, SDoIT, TOT, 8VM, SC, BCaSL, and DT12), two close with the second longest (WDaDU and SFaM), and two have their longest song as the second to last track with a softer song closing (Awake and ADToE). Basically, the long song has some role in the album climax. This is what I mentioned in the IT section of my original post. These long songs tend to give a sense of finality to the album and that's part of what makes them so great. You feel musically satisfied because of them.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: rumborak on December 11, 2014, 12:46:47 PM
I thought that when AC Slater left the show, it had already jumped the shark.


Oh. Saved by the epic.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: TheGreatPretender on December 11, 2014, 12:52:06 PM
It's still shorter than Home. Home runs at 12:53. Finally Free runs at 11:59. But I realized this as well. Eight albums close with the longest song (IaW FII, SDoIT, TOT, 8VM, SC, BCaSL, and DT12), two close with the second longest (WDaDU and SFaM), and two have their longest song as the second to last track with a softer song closing (Awake and ADToE). Basically, the long song has some role in the album climax. This is what I mentioned in the IT section of my original post. These long songs tend to give a sense of finality to the album and that's part of what makes them so great. You feel musically satisfied because of them.

Yeah, exactly. With ADTOE, if you look at an album like a story or a journey, I'd almost consider songs like Beneath The Surface, or Space-Dye Vest to be epilogues. Without them, the album would still have that sense of finality and satisfaction, but with them, it's almost like cooling down after exercising, it eases you off the "high" in a way. Space-Dye Vest does get a bit intense toward the end, but it still feels like an epilogue to me.

SFAM is actually a very unusual case, because even without Finally Free, it would still get a very satisfying ending with TSCO, and the way that Finally Free starts out, it almost does feel like the epilogue, like you're expecting something mellow that kind of eases you off the ride the way Beneath The Surface did, but instead, the tone changes right off the bat into something darker and more sinister, and it throws the big twist at you and presents you with more "drama" than any previous part of the album/story. So it's definitely far from DT's usual formula.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: hefdaddy42 on December 11, 2014, 12:55:00 PM
I don't understand why everything has to be so cut and dry with you. Some things just aren't always clearly defined. What's wrong with that?
If the intentions of the band are clear, that is cut and dry to me.

The presentation of 6DOIT on the album was the definitive presentation.  MP himself stated that the only reason it was divided into different tracks is because of the immense running time of the complete song.  So that is pretty cut and dry.

The next most definitive presentation was the live recording on SCORE.  It is presented as one piece, continuous.  That, to me, again, is cut and dry.

The fact that a couple of radio edits of sections of the song are included on the Greatest Hit package aren't really indicative of anything qualitative or declarative.  They made some edits to try to get publicity via the radio.  No other way to get them, so MP threw them on this package.  No big deal, it's a bonus to fans who buy it, as are various other edits throughout that package.  It makes for not buying stuff you've already bought, it's a novelty.  Nothing more.

So I am only taking into account the way the band has presented the song and talked about the song.  I am not bringing any personal observation or agenda into it, because it is not MY artistic creation.  That's why it is cut and dry for me.

If you have a different opinion, fine. 
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: TheGreatPretender on December 11, 2014, 01:05:22 PM
Art is subjective though, and oftentimes a work of art, the way its interpreted by others is entirely different from what the artist intended. Like I said, I'm not gonna argue with people who only accept SDOIT as a single entity. Depending on my mood, I enjoy it as such as well. But I think it can be seen in a number of ways, and when it comes to those radio edits, I gladly listen to and treat them as separate songs.
Though frankly, I don't think SDOIT is as good as the sum of its parts, and certain parts of it really bog it down.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: hefdaddy42 on December 11, 2014, 01:25:45 PM
Art is subjective though, and oftentimes a work of art, the way its interpreted by others is entirely different from what the artist intended.
But to state that the artist is not correct in the substance of what they are presenting seems presumptuous to me, especially if the only evidence for such opposition is subjective opinion.

Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: chaossystem on December 11, 2014, 01:26:37 PM



As a forum user, I'm going to say here and now that I am not making any assumptions about your character or personality. What I will say is that I find your posts and posting style extremely irritating and arrogant. The questions you pose almost come across like "I think all the users here are idiots. Let's see who agrees or if any idiots disagree."





Arrogant?  Not my impression at all.  Although I agree about the "poll littering."

Chaos has taken a TON of flak lately (from me included, see above), but he's taken it all in good stride and good spirit I think.  It appears that he is simply trying to reach a purer understanding of DT fandom.   This sometimes means lumping things together into generalities to determine a more finite answer out of the wash.   Whether or not this can be or is worthwhile to achieve is another topic.

RTN is right.
I don't begin to understand how asking questions based on points that other people have raised could or should be construed as "arrogant" and/or "calling people idiots!"

And yes, it is true that I am trying to gain a better understanding of how the people on here think regarding the band, as well as satisfy my own curiosity about some things, especially when it comes to how well-liked some of the songs that really stand out for me, and which songs are most popular.
But there seems to be this attitude that if someone makes a mistake it's like a weakness to be exploited.
Sometimes I-like a lot of other people-don't always have the right words. I'm not always going to say the right thing in the right way.

As far as THIS topic is concerned, I think I have already made it clear that I'm not judging ANY-one about ANY-thing. Someone else mentioned that the band seemed to be on this particualr "trend," and I just took the idea and ran with it.
Because, like I said: I'm curious to know what you people think. But there are no wrong answers to these questions.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: bosk1 on December 11, 2014, 01:28:36 PM
I don't consider AMBI to be an epic either nor do I consider TCoT to be an epic. I only consider ACoS, SFoIT, 8VM, ItPoE, and IT to be DT epics. I do know that I have seen quite a few people on here say the other two songs mentioned above are epics along with songs like Metropolis, ToT, and ItNoG. I wanted to give an analysis of more than four songs since ACoS isn't on an album but I didn't want to delve into every song that could possibly be considered an epic. I feel that more people on here include AMBI and TCoT with the epics than any of their other longer songs so I decided that for the sake of discussion and analysis, I would include those two as well. I apologize if I'm wrong, but I was simply going by what I have seen since joining this forum.

Well, it was still a good analysis anyway.  It's just not an "epic," since that term generally applies to single songs, not suites or albums.  There may be a few who mistakenly refer to it as an epic, but it is a small minority.  The other ones you mentioned, along with TCOT, are the ones more broadly understood to be epics.  But there are a LOT of other songs the band and/or a lot of fans also consider to be epics, such as other ones I mentioned in my first post, such as Trial of Tears, In The Name Of God, etc.

Art is subjective though, and oftentimes a work of art, the way its interpreted by others is entirely different from what the artist intended.

No, actually you are blurring together completely different concepts.  Art itself is not subjective.  Interpretation of the meaning of art is subjective.  As Hef said, the band has declared unequivocally what SDOIT is.  That is objective and is "cut and dried."  Your interpretation of what the song means to you or how it makes you feel is up to you.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: erwinrafael on December 11, 2014, 01:59:26 PM
SDOIT is one song.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: chaossystem on December 11, 2014, 02:21:34 PM
Personally, for me length doesn't really matter, it's the structure that defines an epic. I mean, ideally, there needs to be enough time to digest every single bit of music, so an epic typically has to have length, but as far as I'm concerned, Learning to Live is an epic, BAI is an epic, Trial of Tears is an Epic, they all have not only length, but also they're extremely progressive, and the music changes and grows into something new and great as the song progresses, that's far more important than the length of a song. I mean, A Nightmare to Remember is 15 minutes long, but it's heavy parts that bookend the song are very concise and similar, and so as a result, I wouldn't call that song an epic.
Whereas The Dance of Eternity is constantly changing and growing into something new as it goes on, so even short of 7 minutes, I consider that instrumental an epic. Mini epic, at least.

But no, there's no "Saved by the epic" going on. If DT12 had 2 or 3 more short songs instead of Illumination Theory, it would still be a fantastic album.
OTBOA, its best songs aren't epics. BC&SL, the epic in it is just as inconsistent as the rest of it. SC is fantastic all the way through.

I don't think a song has to have a lot of changes in it to be considered an epic. Maybe we could say that "Nightmare" is more of a "metal" epic than a "prog" epic.
I think there are some heavy metal songs that could be considered epics based on length at least as much as melody. Iron Maiden's "Rime of the Ancient Mariner" is one of the first ones that comes to my mind. There are also some songs by Metallica that come to mind. "...And Justice for All" I think would be a good example, as well as some of the other songs from that album, (One) and I'm sure there are a lot of people who consider "Master of Puppets" to be an epic.
Also, I don't think "epic" is always defined by length. I've heard at least one person refer to Queensryche's "Empire" as an epic, even though it's less than five and a half minutes in length!

But I think we may be holding Dream Theater to a different standard, since we're USED to so many of their songs being more than five or six minutes long.

As an example: I thought it was HILARIOUS when Fadetoblackdude7 referred to "Learning to Live" as being "only" eleven-and-a-half minutes long!
When did THAT happen?
I SINCERELY DOUBT if the following words are EVER going to come out of ANY radio DJ's mouth, ever!: "Sorry to disappoint you, but the next song is ONLY eleven and a half minutes long."

This is why I was asking if any of you considered any of DT's songs that are under 20 min. to be epics.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: wolfking on December 11, 2014, 02:49:14 PM
SDOIT is one song.

I have always strongly disagreed with this.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: erwinrafael on December 11, 2014, 03:00:22 PM
SDOIT is one song.

I have always strongly disagreed with this.

You disagree with the songwriters?
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: Dublagent66 on December 11, 2014, 03:05:37 PM
This is why I was asking if any of you considered any of DT's songs that are under 20 min. to be epics.

Yes, DT has many epics under 20 mins in length.  As I posted earlier, length is only one aspect of a song that doesn't necessarily determine the quality of the song.  Although quality in itself is a subjective term based on a individual's personal taste and then again, so is "epic" generally speaking.


I'm not gonna argue with people who only accept SDOIT as a single entity. Depending on my mood, I enjoy it as such as well. But I think it can be seen in a number of ways, and when it comes to those radio edits, I gladly listen to and treat them as separate songs.
Though frankly, I don't think SDOIT is as good as the sum of its parts, and certain parts of it really bog it down.

There really is no point in arguing that SDOIT is a single entity because that's exactly what it is.  Overture sets the musical ground work for what the next 7 movements contain as parts of the whole.  I think SDOIT is greater than the sum of its parts and I don't believe anything bogs it down.  I suppose it's ok to consider SDOIT a collection of songs within a song just as some may consider the song an album within an album based on its length and 8 separate tracks.  I totally get that.  It's imaginative and a fun way to look at it, but at the end of the day, it's still just one song on one album that happened to be too much material to fit on one disc.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: TheGreatPretender on December 11, 2014, 03:11:18 PM
Okay, let me just give you an analogy on how I see SDOIT:

Imagine a painter paints this big collage which consists of, let's say 9 different paintings which all come together to form the bigger picture, one big piece of art that cohesively flows together and makes a grand statement.
Then, once that initial exhibition is done, that artist starts to display each piece of that collage separately here and there. Sometimes two at a time, sometimes one, sometimes the whole thing again.
At the point where he starts doing that, each piece of the collage becomes its own painting, and is subject to being experienced and analyzed on its own merits rather than as a part of the greater whole. And critics, or just art enthusiasts can easily say, "Well, my favorite of this artist's paintings is Solitary Shell (for example)."
That's how I see SDOIT. Yes, it was created as one piece, and presented as such on the album. But as soon as they started releasing and performing bits and pieces of it separately, they fragmented it into bits that can easily be considered separate songs.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: Randaran on December 11, 2014, 03:25:11 PM
I don't think a song has to have a lot of changes in it to be considered an epic. Maybe we could say that "Nightmare" is more of a "metal" epic than a "prog" epic.
I think there are some heavy metal songs that could be considered epics based on length at least as much as melody. Iron Maiden's "Rime of the Ancient Mariner" is one of the first ones that comes to my mind. There are also some songs by Metallica that come to mind. "...And Justice for All" I think would be a good example, as well as some of the other songs from that album, (One) and I'm sure there are a lot of people who consider "Master of Puppets" to be an epic.
Also, I don't think "epic" is always defined by length.

As I said earlier, length alone does not make a song an epic. Of the ones you mentioned, the only one I consider to be an epic is "Rime of the Ancient Mariner". Both Justice and Puppets, though longer than most of Metallica's work, follow standard structure, only breaking from it in the song's respective bridges. Metallica's ballads, however, may qualify, though I have not given the matter enough thought to determine things one way or the other.
Quote
But I think we may be holding Dream Theater to a different standard, since we're USED to so many of their songs being more than five or six minutes long.

As an example: I thought it was HILARIOUS when Fadetoblackdude7 referred to "Learning to Live" as being "only" eleven-and-a-half minutes long!
When did THAT happen?
I SINCERELY DOUBT if the following words are EVER going to come out of ANY radio DJ's mouth, ever!: "Sorry to disappoint you, but the next song is ONLY eleven and a half minutes long."

This is why I was asking if any of you considered any of DT's songs that are under 20 min. to be epics.

Yeah, ever since I began listening to DT, my perceptions of what constitutes a 'long' song have been distorted.  :rollin
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: chaossystem on December 11, 2014, 03:27:46 PM
I'm in the minority, but I&W, FII, TOT and ADTOE are the only albums on which the longest song is my favorite. I enjoy most of DT's 10-14-minute songs, but the only "big" epic (over 20 minutes long) that I love is ACOS, so I can't agree that the later albums have been saved by the epics - in fact, they usually drag the albums down IMO. :P I think the 90s albums and ADTOE had a good balance between shorter and longer songs.

While I don't agree that the longer songs "drag the albums down," I also don't always think they're the best part of it. Especially in the case of "12."
ACoS is the one  over 20 min. epic that stands out for me the the most as well.
While I love the title track from "Octavarium," for me it is not the one song from that album that makes it worth having and listening to.It is one of five or six songs from the same album that I think deserve at least SOME positive attention.

I do like it when they play at least one song that is fifteen minutes or more at their live shows.

But I would also like to see them try the "spreading song-length out more" approach, like they did on "Dramatic.
It may be that it wasn't a CONSCIOUS decision, but who knows...
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: chaossystem on December 11, 2014, 03:40:30 PM
One more thing I would like to ask is: Are there some of you who would still love the band if they kept all of their songs under ten minutes in length, or are ALL of you "dependent" on the epics?
Or are most of you like me, in that you love everything that DT does, as long as they do it well?

Well, the first part of this statement to me is invalid, as DT are a band that ventue into long song territory.  I don't think DT would be DT if all their songs were under 10 minutes, that's a different band.

Also, I don't see how anyone could be 'dependant' on epics.  That doesn't make much sense to me.

I still think it's funny that a song has to be over 8 or 9 minutes to be considered "long" or an "epic."

As for the word "dependent:" I wish I had aother word for it. I've been struggling with trying to find another way to say it.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: TAC on December 11, 2014, 03:46:02 PM
This thread is giving me a headache.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: wolfking on December 11, 2014, 03:48:07 PM
SDOIT is one song.

I have always strongly disagreed with this.

You disagree with the songwriters?

The songwriters didn't give me anything to disagree with.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: Outcrier on December 11, 2014, 03:48:49 PM
I still think it's funny that a song has to be over 8 or 9 minutes to be considered "long" or an "epic."

Well, i'm sure a 2 minute song isn't long  :)
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: wolfking on December 11, 2014, 03:49:27 PM
One more thing I would like to ask is: Are there some of you who would still love the band if they kept all of their songs under ten minutes in length, or are ALL of you "dependent" on the epics?
Or are most of you like me, in that you love everything that DT does, as long as they do it well?

Well, the first part of this statement to me is invalid, as DT are a band that venture into long song territory.  I don't think DT would be DT if all their songs were under 10 minutes, that's a different band.

Also, I don't see how anyone could be 'dependant' on epics.  That doesn't make much sense to me.

I still think it's funny that a song has to be over 8 or 9 minutes to be considered "long" or an "epic."

As for the word "dependent:" I wish I had aother word for it. I've been struggling with trying to find another way to say it.

I didn't say that. 
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: chaossystem on December 11, 2014, 04:06:51 PM
This thread is giving me a headache.

So take some aspirin and go to bed.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: chaossystem on December 11, 2014, 04:21:45 PM
I thought that when AC Slater left the show, it had already jumped the shark.


Oh. Saved by the epic.

That would be a topic for the General Discussion threads.

But it's too bad they didn't get rid of Screech instead.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: bl5150 on December 11, 2014, 04:34:05 PM
This thread is giving me a headache.

Dr BL prescribes a week in GMD only.............works every time  ;D
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: Rodni Demental on December 11, 2014, 04:58:46 PM
Just some thoughts and opinions after reading through this thead:
- Bohemian Rhapsody is much shorter than it feels and much shorter than I realised.
- A Mind Beside Itself may not be an epic, but it does have enough defining characteristics to fill that role. If the 3 individual songs that it's comprised of weren't complete in and of themselves, it'd be less clear cut. After all, it takes you on a journey, has recurring themes. It's in the structure of a suite that makes up a bigger piece. And not that it is, but if it was a whole piece on the album, there'd obviously be no question because it's not exactly abnormal compared to the other 'epics'.
- I never really thought about it, but Finally Free does seem to almost be an epic actually. It's not as long as some, and doesn't have clearly defined sections, but it does have clear changes in mood and devlops into a fairly grand piece if not epic.
- 6DOIT may be a song, and SFAM may be an album. But 6DOIT almost feels like a bit of a 'cool down' for the band after SFAM. It's obviously got it's similarities, especially with it's compositional process with the lyricists taking on different roles from different perspectives to relate to greater theme. Six Degrees as a song, is even longer than some albums if you consider the length of your average half hour pop album. So to me, if a song or suite can be longer than some albums out there, at the very least it could surely be considered a mini album in some regards, especially if it's in the structure of a suite with clearly defined sections. Also, considering the similarities, 6DOIT being an epic, how can it not be considered a mini concept album and yet SFAM, being a concept album can't be considered a giant 'epic'?
- The 12SS might not be considered and 'epic' per se, but in the grand scheme of things, it's one of the most ambitious and epic "pieces" they've ever created in terms of scope and scale. It's hard to say, but I get the feeling MP would have called it an epic as a whole. :P

Art itself is not subjective.  Interpretation of the meaning of art is subjective.  As Hef said, the band has declared unequivocally what SDOIT is.  That is objective and is "cut and dried."  Your interpretation of what the song means to you or how it makes you feel is up to you.

Well yes.. and no..  :lol I dunno if I can agree that art itself is not subjective. Maybe not always, but in many cases an artist themselves might not clearly know what it means. Or they've drawn their inspiration from abstract influences that even they don't understand, the artist themselves might just be interpreting an impression they got, then finding a way to express that. Art's almost never clear cut unless the artist has made it very clear what their intention was. A lot of the time the artist intention is for the art to be open to interpretation, for the viewer or listener to evoke their own meaning from the content. And what about songs where the writer just writes in metaphors and abstract imagery? (eg. Under A Glass Moon). It might have a clear meaning for the writer, but that message hasn't been made clear enough for the listener, so they have no option but to interpret their own subjective meaning. I would also further speculate that the subjective interpretation comes first and foremost, before any accurate objective meaning can be established. Even vice versa from the composers perspective in some cases.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: chaossystem on December 11, 2014, 04:59:55 PM
This thread is giving me a headache.

Dr BL prescribes a week in GMD only.............works every time  ;D

What's GMD?
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: TheGreatPretender on December 11, 2014, 05:04:12 PM

What's GMD?

General Music Discussion, I would guess.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: chaossystem on December 11, 2014, 05:19:10 PM
Maybe that WOULD be less confusing!
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: Skeever on December 11, 2014, 05:27:41 PM
The band describe Six Degrees as one song, but take away the overture and it's not very cohesive. I always figured Six Degrees more to be like a "song cycle", not unlike Porcupine Tree's "The Incident". Or even a suite, like the 12 Step Suite.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: TheGreatPretender on December 11, 2014, 05:38:23 PM
The band describe Six Degrees as one song, but take away the overture and it's not very cohesive. I always figured Six Degrees more to be like a "song cycle", not unlike Porcupine Tree's "The Incident". Or even a suite, like the 12 Step Suite.
Or AMBI.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: TAC on December 11, 2014, 08:44:30 PM
This thread is giving me a headache.

Dr BL prescribes a week in GMD only.............works every time  ;D
I'll check myself in in the morning. :D
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: jjrock88 on December 11, 2014, 09:17:28 PM
I'll see you there Tim, this thread gave me a headache too
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: BlobVanDam on December 11, 2014, 09:19:46 PM
SDOIT is one song.

I have always strongly disagreed with this.

You can disagree all you want, but the fact is it's a song regardless of anyone's opinion. Hef is right on all things.




Except for when I disagree with him. In which case he's probably still right.

Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: RoeDent on December 12, 2014, 02:04:41 AM

You can disagree all you want, but the fact is it's a song regardless of anyone's opinion.

Finally! Someone talking sense on this issue! I know they're different artists, but this also applies to The Incident, The Whirlwind, Garden of Dreams, Thick As A Brick and Tubular Bells, to name just five more. No matter how much you try to deny it. It is the solid truth, full stop.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: wolfking on December 12, 2014, 04:33:00 AM
The band describe Six Degrees as one song, but take away the overture and it's not very cohesive. I always figured Six Degrees more to be like a "song cycle", not unlike Porcupine Tree's "The Incident". Or even a suite, like the 12 Step Suite.


I pretty much agree with this.

I'm not saying I'm right though cause the band obviously wrote the piece and it is intended to be a single song, but yeah, it's nothing like 8VM or even ACOS which feel much more cohesive.  Perhaps I need to listen to the song in a different frame of mind, maybe I'm missing something.

Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: King Postwhore on December 12, 2014, 07:18:03 AM
Why do people get so involved if it's a song cycle or a song.  Who gives a flying ...........
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: hefdaddy42 on December 12, 2014, 07:18:42 AM
Hef is right on all things. Except for when I disagree with him. In which case he's probably still right.
Sig'd.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: King Postwhore on December 12, 2014, 07:22:36 AM
That just bought you a "You're a f&*(&^% stupid bitch, get out of jail free" card Blob.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: hefdaddy42 on December 12, 2014, 07:24:57 AM
lol
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: BlobVanDam on December 12, 2014, 07:30:38 AM
Hef is right on all things. Except for when I disagree with him. In which case he's probably still right.
Sig'd.

I'm honoured, sir. :lol
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: rumborak on December 12, 2014, 09:52:53 AM
Why do people get so involved if it's a song cycle or a song.  Who gives a flying ...........

I am following this thread with a certain morbid fascination....
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: King Postwhore on December 12, 2014, 10:41:09 AM
Why do people get so involved if it's a song cycle or a song.  Who gives a flying ...........

I am following this thread with a certain morbid fascination....

 :rollin

As I always do sir on this side of the forum myself.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: hefdaddy42 on December 12, 2014, 11:37:37 AM
Why do people get so involved if it's a song cycle or a song.  Who gives a flying ...........
Dammit, king, this is DT-side.  This is where we get involved about stuff. 

lol
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: chaossystem on December 12, 2014, 01:25:56 PM
The following are just MY opinions and observations, so don't think you have to take any of it seriously.

I don't think "Six Degrees" (disc two) counts as what I meant by an "epic," because it is made up of eight separate and individual tracks that are all under ten minutes long, and while they all DO revolve around a theme, they are NOT "chapters" in a "story."
I see it as more of a concept album along the lines of most of Alan Parsons' albums, such as the first one "Tales of Mystery and Imagination," in which the songs were all based on stories and poems by Edgar Allan Poe.
Or some of Pink Floyd's concepts, such as "Animals" and  "The Wall."
But not a concept like SFaM, or Queensryche's "Operation:MindCrime," both of which have a more less cohesive story line.
However, "Losing Time/Grand Finale" does kind of tie the whole thing together in much the same way that "Eclipse" ties "Dark Side of the Moon" together.

On the OTHER hand, I think that "The Glass Prison" and "The Great Debate" could be considered epics, or at least mini-epics, because they are both well OVER ten minutes long.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: wolfking on December 12, 2014, 01:39:37 PM
Why do people get so involved if it's a song cycle or a song.  Who gives a flying ...........

I don't really, it's mainly because we could see a thread started by chaossystem hit the 100 replies before getting locked!  :eek
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: bosk1 on December 12, 2014, 03:05:43 PM
The following are just MY opinions and observations, so don't think you have to take any of it seriously.

I don't think "Six Degrees" (disc two) counts as what I meant by an "epic," because it is made up of eight separate and individual tracks that are all under ten minutes long, and while they all DO revolve around a theme, they are NOT "chapters" in a "story."
I see it as more of a concept album along the lines of most of Alan Parsons' albums, such as the first one "Tales of Mystery and Imagination," in which the songs were all based on stories and poems by Edgar Allan Poe.
Or some of Pink Floyd's concepts, such as "Animals" and  "The Wall."

You can disagree all you want, but the fact is it's a song regardless of anyone's opinion. Hef is right
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: chaossystem on December 12, 2014, 03:16:51 PM
Okay.

I was just trying to present another way of looking at it.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: Skeever on December 12, 2014, 03:31:16 PM
I've always looked at disc 2 like a mini concept album, chaos. I get that it's a "song" and the band consider it to be one song, but honestly, it is not very good as a song. Rarely do I ever listen to it in one sitting. And I have zero issue with people who like to think of the individual tracks as standalone songs, because the songs do stand on their own merits pretty well. IMO the worst thing about Score is the way the band decided to portray it on the release as one long unskippable track. Even long orchestra works and suites let you skip to the various "movements".
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: erwinrafael on December 12, 2014, 03:42:49 PM
I always listen to it in one sitting because the individual parts do not have satisfying endings.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: chaossystem on December 12, 2014, 03:54:53 PM
I like About to Crash-and the reprise-as well as War/Test, and Solitary Shell as stand-alone tracks, but the rest of it is fairly weak.

But I also like the Score version, because I think this "song"  in it's over-all presentation sounds better in a live setting with a live orchestra.

Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: chaossystem on December 12, 2014, 04:12:11 PM
Why do people get so involved if it's a song cycle or a song.  Who gives a flying ...........

I am following this thread with a certain morbid fascination....

 :rollin

As I always do sir on this side of the forum myself.

You don't HAVE to give a flyin' :censored, but why does it have to be MORBID???

Can't you just have a little fun with it???
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: TheGreatPretender on December 12, 2014, 10:44:17 PM
I've always looked at disc 2 like a mini concept album, chaos. I get that it's a "song" and the band consider it to be one song, but honestly, it is not very good as a song. Rarely do I ever listen to it in one sitting. And I have zero issue with people who like to think of the individual tracks as standalone songs, because the songs do stand on their own merits pretty well. IMO the worst thing about Score is the way the band decided to portray it on the release as one long unskippable track. Even long orchestra works and suites let you skip to the various "movements".

THANK YOU!  Something we agree on!

Though I don't mind it on Score as much, mainly because of the orchestra and that the second set of Score is the kind of thing that I kind of have to commit myself to sit down and watch anyway (like Gone With The Wind or another long and heavy movie that you can't digest too often).
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: The Letter M on December 13, 2014, 12:04:26 AM
I've always looked at disc 2 like a mini concept album, chaos. I get that it's a "song" and the band consider it to be one song, but honestly, it is not very good as a song. Rarely do I ever listen to it in one sitting. And I have zero issue with people who like to think of the individual tracks as standalone songs, because the songs do stand on their own merits pretty well. IMO the worst thing about Score is the way the band decided to portray it on the release as one long unskippable track. Even long orchestra works and suites let you skip to the various "movements".

Symphonies on albums only work that way because the movements within them have those pauses between them, unlike "Six Degrees" which is one continuous song with no real stops in it. Some epics do that, some epics don't. If you look at songs like "Supper's Ready" or "Close To The Edge", they have movements but they're still continuous pieces. But some epics like those by Rush, like "2112", have some full-stops between movements, allowing for breathes and breaks in-between.

I liked that they made "Six Degrees" one track on Score, just to be definitive about its identity as one whole piece. The same was done with Transatlantic's "The Whirlwind", which was featured as one track taking up the whole first disc on two live albums by the band.

Besides, I think if it really bothered someone that a track was so long, they could take it into Audacity and cut it up, save the individual WAV files and later convert those into MP3s for iPod use, or burn the WAVs to a CD-r. Then again, most digital players have quick and simple tracking scrolls that allow a user to scroll through a track fairly quickly, at least a LOt quicker than a CD or Cassette would allow. I'm sure it was a lot easier in the days of vinyl where you could just drop the needle where you wanted it and be right in the middle of, say, "Karn Evil 9" or "Thick As A Brick".

-Marc.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: chaossystem on December 13, 2014, 02:50:03 PM
They actually do have pauses between at least some of the parts on the Score version of Six Degrees.
There are moments where the band and the orchestra stop playing, and all you hear is the audience.

As for some of the other bands' epics that were mentioned: I usually only listen to the first one or two parts of things like 2112 or Karn Evil 9, because after that they get bogged down in a lot of boring lyrical and musical ideas, and cease-for me at least-to be interesting.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: chaossystem on December 13, 2014, 03:03:33 PM
I've always looked at disc 2 like a mini concept album, chaos. I get that it's a "song" and the band consider it to be one song, but honestly, it is not very good as a song. Rarely do I ever listen to it in one sitting. And I have zero issue with people who like to think of the individual tracks as standalone songs, because the songs do stand on their own merits pretty well. IMO the worst thing about Score is the way the band decided to portray it on the release as one long unskippable track. Even long orchestra works and suites let you skip to the various "movements".

I don't know if it was a conscious decision or not, but I just checked it on Wikepedia, and most of Alan Parsons' and Pink Floyd's concept albums are about the same length as Six Degrees, Disc Two.
In fact, It's about a minute or two LONGER than those other albums.
So, for that reason alone, I think it could be considered a FULL-LENGTH concept album.
But, of course, I'm aware that most-or at least half of you anyway-prefer to think of it as one 42-minute song, so there we are...
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on December 13, 2014, 03:32:36 PM
But it's not an album. It's a song on an album. The length is irrelevant.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: The Letter M on December 13, 2014, 03:59:28 PM
But it's not an album. It's a song on an album. The length is irrelevant.

This. Had the song been released separately, or the album in parts (with Disc 1 coming out one part of the year, then Disc 2 later on in the year), it might be considered an album (although you'd have people fighting over whether or not an album released in two parts should be considered one album or two - see Ayreon's The Universal Migrator, Beardfish's Sleeping In Traffic, Pain of Salvation's Road Salt, or Justin Timberlake's The 20/20 Experience).

And I agree - album length is irrelevant. An album's (physical) medium, and therefore length, shouldn't determine whether or not something is simply an EP or an Album, but more so the content itself. Albums in the 70's were only 35-50 minutes because that's how much a single vinyl could hold. Double albums were then only about 70-85 minutes in length, but single CDs these days can hold up to 80 minutes, so a double album in the 70's could be considered a single album today (and vice versa).

Had Scenes From A Memory been originally released on vinyl, it would have been a double album with Act 1 as the whole first vinyl and Act 2 on the second. But it's not considered a double album because it just happened to fit. If CDs could hold 100 minutes, then Six Degrees Of Inner Turbulence would have definitely been a single CD album, and there'd be none of this "Disc 1 vs Disc 2" business that fans get their panties in a twist for. Put the album on an iPod and what happens? It's one album. No discs, no vinyl sides, nothing but six songs on one album, just as it should be, especially intended by the band.

Now, there are plenty of single-song works that ARE single albums with no other songs, but that was the intention of the artist. Look at Jethro Tull's Thick As A Brick, originally intended to be one song on the album, but vinyl had to limit their intention since the 40-minute piece had to be cut in half. Does cutting it in half make fans think it's two songs when it's really one whole piece? Why should the limitations of the medium define the music when the artist themselves explain their intentions?

Echolyn have a song that is just one whole album, Mei, which is a 50-minute piece with no other divisions on the CD, but had it been released on vinyl or even cassette, it would have to have been split up.

TL;DR - Physical limitations of the medium shouldn't have any implication on the artists' intention and meaning of a piece's status, condition, or structure. If a song was meant to be a song, then it's a song. If an album was meant to be one whole album (and not seen as two or more parts of a whole), then it's one whole album.

-Marc.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: TheGreatPretender on December 13, 2014, 04:14:16 PM
Had Scenes From A Memory been originally released on vinyl, it would have been a double album with Act 1 as the whole first vinyl and Act 2 on the second. But it's not considered a double album because it just happened to fit. If CDs could hold 100 minutes, then Six Degrees Of Inner Turbulence would have definitely been a single CD album, and there'd be none of this "Disc 1 vs Disc 2" business that fans get their panties in a twist for. Put the album on an iPod and what happens? It's one album. No discs, no vinyl sides, nothing but six songs on one album, just as it should be, especially intended by the band.

This is a different conversation entirely, but the whole Disc 1 vs. Disc 2 thing is probably not just because of the physical medium. I mean, the songs on the first CD and the songs on the second CD were written in completely different sessions. They took a break after the first 5 songs, and then got together and banged out the second CD after, so I think the division stems more from the approach of the writing sessions, not just from the fact that they have two separate CDs.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: The Letter M on December 13, 2014, 04:42:08 PM
Had Scenes From A Memory been originally released on vinyl, it would have been a double album with Act 1 as the whole first vinyl and Act 2 on the second. But it's not considered a double album because it just happened to fit. If CDs could hold 100 minutes, then Six Degrees Of Inner Turbulence would have definitely been a single CD album, and there'd be none of this "Disc 1 vs Disc 2" business that fans get their panties in a twist for. Put the album on an iPod and what happens? It's one album. No discs, no vinyl sides, nothing but six songs on one album, just as it should be, especially intended by the band.

This is a different conversation entirely, but the whole Disc 1 vs. Disc 2 thing is probably not just because of the physical medium. I mean, the songs on the first CD and the songs on the second CD were written in completely different sessions. They took a break after the first 5 songs, and then got together and banged out the second CD after, so I think the division stems more from the approach of the writing sessions, not just from the fact that they have two separate CDs.

Sounds reasonably plausible, although I was unaware (until now, and having just read through MP's FAQ about SDOIT) that there were two separate sessions for the writing of the album. Regardless of when they were written, there'd be no argument about "Disc 1 vs Disc 2" had the album been released on one single medium rather than two pieces. It would just be "the title track vs anything-else-on-the-album" and the title track would probably have the same reverence as "Octavarium" on its respective album, being the epic title track at the end of the album.

-Marc.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: TheGreatPretender on December 13, 2014, 04:49:32 PM
See, I don't know if that's true. While Octavarium might be the single most beloved song on its album, I imagine there'd be a much bigger ratio of people who'd say, "Octavarium over all those other awesome songs? No way."
As much as I love it, honestly, the first three songs on Octavarium alone are enough to sway me to prefer the first half of the album.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: Skeever on December 14, 2014, 09:33:33 AM
I would not take SDOIT disc 2 over disc 1 - disc 1 is some of the best music DT have done in my opinion. I would take Octavarium over the rest of the album, though.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: King Postwhore on December 14, 2014, 03:32:51 PM
See, I don't know if that's true. While Octavarium might be the single most beloved song on its album, I imagine there'd be a much bigger ratio of people who'd say, "Octavarium over all those other awesome songs? No way."
As much as I love it, honestly, the first three songs on Octavarium alone are enough to sway me to prefer the first half of the album.

I think you are in the minority my friend.  Time for Chaossystem to start a new poll!!
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: chaossystem on December 14, 2014, 03:50:53 PM
No thanks.

I'm getting too much shit for doing that the way it is.

However, if you check Destiny of Chaos's poll, Octavarium usually seem to be ahead by about 9 or 10 votes.

It's up to YOU-whoever you may BE-to decide what THAT means.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: erwinrafael on December 14, 2014, 03:57:57 PM
I think it is unfair to say that the Octavarium is a case of Saved by the Epic because that album was intended to revolve around the epic. I enjoyed the other songs in that album, especially These Walls and TROAE. But Octavarium would obviously be the favorite because it was intended by the band to be the showcase.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: TheGreatPretender on December 14, 2014, 03:59:26 PM
See, I don't know if that's true. While Octavarium might be the single most beloved song on its album, I imagine there'd be a much bigger ratio of people who'd say, "Octavarium over all those other awesome songs? No way."
As much as I love it, honestly, the first three songs on Octavarium alone are enough to sway me to prefer the first half of the album.

I think you are in the minority my friend.  Time for Chaossystem to start a new poll!!

Well, speaking of that, according to the Octavarium polls there are 31 people who voted for something other than Octavarium, versus 90 that voted for the title track, that's just over 25% of people who prefer a single song on the album over Octavarium, which might seem like a pretty big difference, but that does prove that there are songs on the album that other people consider to be great. So I do wonder how many of those 90 people would take Octavarium over ALL the other songs on the album combined. I mean, maybe, maybe not, but I don't think it would be all that farfetched to say that quite a few people wouldn't choose Octavarium over all 7 of the other songs, or any combination of them.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: The Letter M on December 14, 2014, 04:32:20 PM
Interesting points all around. Anyone want to start a series of "Epic Vs Non-Epics" Polls?
SDOIT - "Six Degrees Of Inner Turbulence" VS The First 5 Tracks
TOT - "In The Name Of God" VS The First 6 Tracks
8VM - "Octavarium" VA The First 7 Tracks
SC - "In The Presence Of Enemies" VS The Other 6 Tracks
BC&SL - "The Count Of Tuscany" VS The First 5 Tracks
DT12 - "Illumination Theory" VS The First 8 Tracks

It would be interesting to see how many would choose just the one epic over the rest of the album, or if the other songs are just as, if not more favorable over the epics when combined?

-Marc.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: chaossystem on December 14, 2014, 05:10:54 PM
Interesting points all around. Anyone want to start a series of "Epic Vs Non-Epics" Polls?
SDOIT - "Six Degrees Of Inner Turbulence" VS The First 5 Tracks
TOT - "In The Name Of God" VS The First 6 Tracks
8VM - "Octavarium" VA The First 7 Tracks
SC - "In The Presence Of Enemies" VS The Other 6 Tracks
BC&SL - "The Count Of Tuscany" VS The First 5 Tracks
DT12 - "Illumination Theory" VS The First 8 Tracks

It would be interesting to see how many would choose just the one epic over the rest of the album, or if the other songs are just as, if not more favorable over the epics when combined?

-Marc.

We could just do that on here!
INSTEAD of starting a new poll/thread>

Here's my contribution to your idea, Marc:

SDoIT-The Glass Prison (unless the 2nd disc can be broken up into individual tracks, in which case I choose About to Crash)
ToT-As I Am
8VM-The Root of All Evil
SC-In the Presence of Enemies (I HATE having to pick one song from this album, because I think ITPoE, CM, TDEN, and Forsaken are all equally good)
BS & SL-A Rite of Passage (TSF is a close second)
DT12-Behind the Veil
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: erwinrafael on December 14, 2014, 05:41:50 PM
SDOIT song
Rest of ToT
Octavarium song
ITPOE part 1 only
Rest of BC&SL
IT
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: King Postwhore on December 14, 2014, 05:49:11 PM
See, I don't know if that's true. While Octavarium might be the single most beloved song on its album, I imagine there'd be a much bigger ratio of people who'd say, "Octavarium over all those other awesome songs? No way."
As much as I love it, honestly, the first three songs on Octavarium alone are enough to sway me to prefer the first half of the album.

I think you are in the minority my friend.  Time for Chaossystem to start a new poll!!

Well, speaking of that, according to the Octavarium polls there are 31 people who voted for something other than Octavarium, versus 90 that voted for the title track, that's just over 25% of people who prefer a single song on the album over Octavarium, which might seem like a pretty big difference, but that does prove that there are songs on the album that other people consider to be great. So I do wonder how many of those 90 people would take Octavarium over ALL the other songs on the album combined. I mean, maybe, maybe not, but I don't think it would be all that farfetched to say that quite a few people wouldn't choose Octavarium over all 7 of the other songs, or any combination of them.

I would say 75% is majority. If it was a presidential election, it would be a landslide.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: CharlesPL on December 14, 2014, 05:54:56 PM
SDOIT song
ITNoG
Octavarium song
ITPOE part 1 only
Count
IT
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: erwinrafael on December 14, 2014, 05:55:54 PM
The problem with what's your favorite polls though is that it gives the impression that the rest of the album is weak when it could really just be the case of one song being the favorite of many. Octavarium may not be the best case, but I believe that examples of what I  am saying are in the other albums like DT 12, Awake, ToT and SDOIT.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: hefdaddy42 on December 14, 2014, 06:14:15 PM
Had Scenes From A Memory been originally released on vinyl, it would have been a double album with Act 1 as the whole first vinyl and Act 2 on the second. But it's not considered a double album because it just happened to fit. If CDs could hold 100 minutes, then Six Degrees Of Inner Turbulence would have definitely been a single CD album, and there'd be none of this "Disc 1 vs Disc 2" business that fans get their panties in a twist for. Put the album on an iPod and what happens? It's one album. No discs, no vinyl sides, nothing but six songs on one album, just as it should be, especially intended by the band.

This is a different conversation entirely, but the whole Disc 1 vs. Disc 2 thing is probably not just because of the physical medium. I mean, the songs on the first CD and the songs on the second CD were written in completely different sessions. They took a break after the first 5 songs, and then got together and banged out the second CD after, so I think the division stems more from the approach of the writing sessions, not just from the fact that they have two separate CDs.
They didn't come together to bang out a second disc of material.  They wanted to do another epic song, but they were thinking in the 20-minute range.  It just wound up being 42 minutes, which necessitated a 2-disc album, or cutting two of the first 5 to get it all on one disc.  It was never the intention going in to make a double album.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: Randaran on December 14, 2014, 06:16:40 PM
Interesting points all around. Anyone want to start a series of "Epic Vs Non-Epics" Polls?
SDOIT - "Six Degrees Of Inner Turbulence" VS The First 5 Tracks

No; the second disc, while good, is nowhere near as great as the first

Quote
TOT - "In The Name Of God" VS The First 6 Tracks

Hell no; ITNOG is easily the weakest track on the album

Quote
8VM - "Octavarium" VS The First 7 Tracks

Octavarium is by far the best song on the album, so yes.

Quote
SC - "In The Presence Of Enemies" VS The Other 6 Tracks
BC&SL - "The Count Of Tuscany" VS The First 5 Tracks
DT12 - "Illumination Theory" VS The First 8 Tracks

No for all of these. Each of these albums has at least one song that I prefer to the epic (TDEN, TSF, and most of DT12 respectively). The only case in which I would rather have the epic over the rest of the album is Octavarium.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: TheGreatPretender on December 14, 2014, 06:17:03 PM
I would say 75% is majority. If it was a presidential election, it would be a landslide.

Yeah, but that majority is only comparing Octavarium to any one song on that album, not multiple songs. I mean the same thing is happening with DT12, most people are choosing Illumination Theory, including myself. But if I had to make a choice between IT and all the other songs on the album combined, I'd choose the rest of the album.

It's like if people were given a choice between one president, and several other candidates, combining their forces and ruling equally for the greater good. Suddenly those 75% might prefer the combined forces of those people, over the one guy they initially preferred.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: fischermasamune on December 14, 2014, 06:28:15 PM
With the exemption that more music is generally better, but putting together many politicians only makes it worse.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: TheGreatPretender on December 14, 2014, 06:31:34 PM
With the exemption that more music is generally better, but putting together many politicians only makes it worse.

Well, yes, but the politician metaphor wasn't my idea anyway.  :lol
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: King Postwhore on December 14, 2014, 06:34:22 PM
You are over-analyzing this. No ever looks at an album and says, "I like the rest of the album over the best song on the album."  Most just say that a certain song is their favorite. No one says what you said.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: chaossystem on December 14, 2014, 06:38:03 PM
I think a lot of people just love the OCTAVARIUM track as a whole.

If it was just a case of "more is better" then they could fill an album with twelve or more shorter songs and everyone would be just as happy.

But since there are so many people who like the epics, or at least songs that are over eleven or twelve minutes long, I don't think that they COULD do that.

And yes, I'm aware of the fact that they probably wouldn't WANT to.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: King Postwhore on December 14, 2014, 06:44:17 PM
Sometimes a song is that stunning like Octavarium. Not all epics are loved but for the most part, it is close to a masterpiece for DT.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: erwinrafael on December 14, 2014, 07:06:36 PM
What exactly does being Saved by the Epic mean anyway? It's almost like a derogatory term, like the album is really meh, and only the epic is worth listening to, the only SAVING grace of the album. If that is the case, I would argue that DT really does not have any albums of that kind. Octavarium is the closest, but as I said before, that album is constructed around the epic, so if the epic did not turn out to be the overwhelming highlight of the album, then DT would have failed because they did not meet their intended goal.

I think epics are actually meant to be the highlight of albums. Whenever an epic does not turn out to be the highlight, I actually feel very dissatisfied. That's one of my main gripes with Haken. They generally have very good albums, but Celestial Elixir, Visions and most especially Pareidolia were all letdowns for me in terms of becoming satisfying conclusions. DT is very good at that, knowing how to create a climactic piece to end their albums. I think instead of describing DT albums as being saved by the epic, I view DT albums more as having a satisfying climax.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: BlobVanDam on December 14, 2014, 07:13:37 PM
Interesting points all around. Anyone want to start a series of "Epic Vs Non-Epics" Polls?
SDOIT - "Six Degrees Of Inner Turbulence" VS The First 5 Tracks

No; the second disc, while good, is nowhere near as great as the first

Quote
TOT - "In The Name Of God" VS The First 6 Tracks

Hell no; ITNOG is easily the weakest track on the album

My brain can't handle wrongness of this magnitude this early after waking up.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: chaossystem on December 14, 2014, 07:19:25 PM
If by "wrongness" you mean anyone saying that ItNoG is the WEAKEST song on ToT, I couldn't agree more!

Especially compared to "Endless Sacrifice" and "Vacant!!!"
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: TheGreatPretender on December 14, 2014, 07:19:49 PM
You are over-analyzing this. No ever looks at an album and says, "I like the rest of the album over the best song on the album."  Most just say that a certain song is their favorite. No one says what you said.

We're on DTF, and you blame me for over-analyzing something?  :lol

You do realize that most people outside of this forum don't rank their favorite songs or albums either, right?
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: BlobVanDam on December 14, 2014, 07:21:57 PM
You are over-analyzing this. No ever looks at an album and says, "I like the rest of the album over the best song on the album."  Most just say that a certain song is their favorite. No one says what you said.

We're on DTF, and you blame me for over-analyzing something?  :lol

You do realize that most people outside of this forum don't rank their favorite songs or albums either, right?

Most people just listen to their music and enjoy it. Crazy, right? :neverusethis:
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: chaossystem on December 14, 2014, 07:29:21 PM
Have you seen some of the other threads on here?

I swear there's one that is at least partially dedicated  to what the background vocals sound like when you remove the instrumentation!

So I, for one am NOT surprised by ANYTHING on here that gets "over-analyzed!"

Are you?
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: King Postwhore on December 14, 2014, 07:30:32 PM
You are over-analyzing this. No ever looks at an album and says, "I like the rest of the album over the best song on the album."  Most just say that a certain song is their favorite. No one says what you said.

We're on DTF, and you blame me for over-analyzing something?  :lol

You do realize that most people outside of this forum don't rank their favorite songs or albums either, right?

Um, music lovers always rank all music. :lol

My cousin and I did it before Al Gore created the internet.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: TheGreatPretender on December 14, 2014, 07:31:31 PM
I swear there's one that is at least partially dedicated  to what the background vocals sound like when you remove the instrumentation!

Speaking of which, I need to upload the next set.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: chaossystem on December 14, 2014, 07:37:38 PM
You are over-analyzing this. No ever looks at an album and says, "I like the rest of the album over the best song on the album."  Most just say that a certain song is their favorite. No one says what you said.

We're on DTF, and you blame me for over-analyzing something?  :lol

You do realize that most people outside of this forum don't rank their favorite songs or albums either, right?

Um, music lovers always rank all music. :lol

My cousin and I did it before Al Gore created the internet.

Good thing we had "Algore" to pave the way for us!
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: Randaran on December 14, 2014, 07:39:47 PM
If by "wrongness" you mean anyone saying that ItNoG is the WEAKEST song on ToT, I couldn't agree more!

Especially compared to "Endless Sacrifice" and "Vacant!!!"

Endless Sacrifice is the best song on ToT. ITNoG would not even breach my top 50.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: chaossystem on December 14, 2014, 07:49:25 PM
Well, everyone has a right to rate the songs any way they CHOOSE.

And that includes rating them with LOVE and/or HATE!
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on December 14, 2014, 07:50:58 PM
If by "wrongness" you mean anyone saying that ItNoG is the WEAKEST song on ToT, I couldn't agree more!

Especially compared to "Endless Sacrifice" and "Vacant!!!"

Endless Sacrifice is the best song on ToT. ITNoG would not even breach my top 50.

I like this post.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: Rodni Demental on December 15, 2014, 01:29:43 AM
I don't think I'd pick the 'epic' over "the rest of an album" in any of the examples. To me, it's like saying the epic is the only good part of the album if you honestly rank it higher than the rest of an album combined, which is a valid perspective, but not one I agree with (Six Degrees is almost the exception to this, because it practically makes up as much content as it's other half). The general quality of DT songs is high enough that I'd rather take quantity in this case even if I lost out on the epics.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: TheGreatPretender on December 15, 2014, 07:12:29 AM
I don't think I'd pick the 'epic' over "the rest of an album" in any of the examples. To me, it's like saying the epic is the only good part of the album if you honestly rank it higher than the rest of an album combined, which is a valid perspective, but not one I agree with (Six Degrees is almost the exception to this, because it practically makes up as much content as it's other half). The general quality of DT songs is high enough that I'd rather take quantity in this case even if I lost out on the epics.

I agree with this entirely. Hence why I don't think any album of theirs needed "saving by the epic". Usually the quality of the epic on any given album reflects the quality of the rest of that album pretty well.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: chaossystem on December 15, 2014, 02:29:13 PM
If by "wrongness" you mean anyone saying that ItNoG is the WEAKEST song on ToT, I couldn't agree more!

Especially compared to "Endless Sacrifice" and "Vacant!!!"

Endless Sacrifice is the best song on ToT. ITNoG would not even breach my top 50.

Which one?

I like this post.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: Stadler on December 16, 2014, 10:17:40 AM
Notwithstanding the notion of "saved by the epic", as I can sort of understand that, I know for me, there is absolutely NO correlation whatsoever between a songs length and how much I like it.    None.

I remember when Flying Colors was about to come out, and there were people that instantly thought they knew what the good songs and bad songs were going to be just from the times.  I think that is ludicrous. 
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: TAC on December 16, 2014, 10:18:43 AM
I remember when Flying Colors was about to come out, and there were people that instantly thought they knew what the good songs and bad songs were going to be just from the times.  I think that is ludicrous.
Exactly. They all sucked! ;D
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: hefdaddy42 on December 16, 2014, 11:06:51 AM
I remember when Flying Colors was about to come out, and there were people that instantly thought they knew what the good songs and bad songs were going to be just from the times.  I think that is ludicrous.
Exactly. They all sucked! ;D
Oh, shut up.  :P
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: TAC on December 16, 2014, 11:11:05 AM
 :lol
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: chaossystem on December 16, 2014, 02:13:10 PM
Is flying colors a band or an album?
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: bl5150 on December 16, 2014, 02:15:37 PM
Is flying colors a band or an album?

Both  :D
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: The Letter M on December 16, 2014, 02:59:17 PM
Is flying colors a band or an album?

Both  :D

LOL Yes, both. (https://bit.ly/1wWW1aJ) :tup

Ironically, though, the album's 3 longest tracks are three of my favorites from it. So...I guess I fall into that stereotypical prog-lover trope where longer-is-better, but only when there's a good band of musicians and writers involved. Anything with Neal I pretty much trust will be something I love.

-Marc.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: ThatOneGuy2112 on December 16, 2014, 03:34:26 PM
Similarly, I feel Open Up Your Eyes and Infinite Fire are some of the best songs they've done, regardless of length. However, Peaceful Harbor is still my absolute favorite they've done thus far, so there's something to debunk that typical prog-lover trope. :lol
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: chaossystem on December 16, 2014, 04:09:32 PM
Ok...

I just listened to some bits and pieces of their music on YouTube.

My first impressions are as follows:

Good, but not the most original-sounding music I've ever heard.

I''m surprised they selected someone OTHER than Neal Morse to be the lead singer.

I really HOPE that Mike Portnoy has FINALLY found a "home."
If he stays with it, who KNOWS what this band could become?
I see a lot of potential here!

Is Steve Morse stiill with Deep Purple?
I kind of hope not, because like I said, this band would be a good full-time gig for these guys.

I think this band's "secret weapon," or maybe NOT so secret, will turn out be Dave Larue.
I became familiar with him when I saw and heard him play on the "Satriani Live!" DVD.
I've been a fan ever since, and I like his playing better than that of Stuart Hamm, the guy that usually plays bass for Satch. At least he used to.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: TAC on December 16, 2014, 04:21:51 PM
Steve Morse IS still in Deep Purple.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: wolfking on December 16, 2014, 04:28:07 PM
I''m surprised they selected someone OTHER than Neal Morse to be the lead singer.

Why?
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: Shadow Ninja 2.0 on December 16, 2014, 04:29:19 PM
Well, Neal is generally the lead singer on most Neal-related projects.

Although that's probably exactly why he wasn't for FC.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: Mosh on December 16, 2014, 07:50:47 PM
At first I was disappointed when I saw that Neal wouldn't be doing lead vocals, but Casey turned out to be perfect for the job and his vocals are getting better. I also really like how they've incorporated Neal's vocals into the band.

Chaos: This is definitely not a "full time band" for any of these guys. Which is pretty sad because you're right, there is a lot of potential. It's a shame that this will remain a side project because right now it's probably the most interesting thing any of these guys are involved in.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: The Letter M on December 16, 2014, 09:52:19 PM
At first I was disappointed when I saw that Neal wouldn't be doing lead vocals, but Casey turned out to be perfect for the job and his vocals are getting better. I also really like how they've incorporated Neal's vocals into the band.

Chaos: This is definitely not a "full time band" for any of these guys. Which is pretty sad because you're right, there is a lot of potential. It's a shame that this will remain a side project because right now it's probably the most interesting thing any of these guys are involved in.

Very true. Flying Colors has been a breath of fresh air for all members involved, but it will likely remain a side-project. MP's "home" seems to be The Winery Dogs. He's been very invested in it, doing extensive touring around the world and hosting not one, but TWO (so far) Dog Camps where fans can interact with the band (or something like that...), and it seems like he enjoys his part in that band. Not the project I'd picture him focusing on after Dream Theater, but if he's happy doing that, more power to him. I'd still be more interested in the stuff he does with Neal (Transatlantic, Flying Colors, Neal Morse Band) than anything else he's done or is doing (Adrenaline Mob, The Winery Dogs, PSMS).

I did enjoy his gong-work in the latest Haken EP, though! :rollin

-Marc.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: Stadler on December 17, 2014, 08:25:05 AM
I think "Kayla" is perhaps the perfect song, and Flying Colors will always be special to me simply because of that, "The Storm", and "Better Than Walking Away" (which has personal implications for me).  I haven't connected yet with the second album, in large part because of the topic of this thread:  it's not concerned with the "artificial" constraint of the need for "epics".  I have Neal, TA, and DT for that, when it is organic and the idea calls for it.   I think perhaps it is harder in some ways to write the concise 4:00 "pop" song, to self-edit, and to get to the concise heart of the message of the song, and so in many cases, the notion of an "epic" isn't positive, but rather a negative.   
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: Zydar on December 17, 2014, 08:26:17 AM

I did enjoy his gong-work in the latest Haken EP, though! :rollin

-Marc.

Yeah, that was an outstanding performance :lol
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: chaossystem on December 20, 2014, 03:48:27 PM
I got the "Flying Colors Live in Europe" DVD earlier this week, and I've watched it a couple of times.

Interesting variety of music.
Good musicianship.

I didn't realize until after i brought it home that they were only on tour for their first album, so there are no "newer" songs in the show.

The two opening songs are really good.
I thought some of the songs from the album around the middle or two-thirds of the way through were a little weak, but then it gets better towards the end.

There are, of course several covers.
"Can't Find a Way" is a song that the main lead singer did with one of the other bands he was with. Kind of a "pop ballad," and not the sort of thing I normally listen to, but I like it.
Neal Morse sings a Spock's Beard song called "June." It's more acapella and acoustic than a rock song, but still good. Neal does a lot of lead and solo vocals in this show, which sounds good, but I wish his instrumental sound was more out-front than it is. He's a very talented keyboard player, and that side of him should be heard more.

I didn't like the song "Kayla" as much as other people seem to like it.

Mike Portnoy, in addition to sounding great on the drums, sings a lot more than I expected him to. He does the lead vocal on a song from the FC album  called "Fool in My Heart," and then after a brief but excellent solo by Dave LaRue, he does the lead vocal on their "cover" of DT's "Repentance." I like his vocals, even if no one else does!

Speaking of solos, I wish there had been a drum, guitar, and keyboard solo as well. They could have left out some of the weaker songs and replaced them with the solo spots.
Actually I think there WAS a guitar solo, because at one point about half or two-thirds into the show, Steve Morse was introduced, but then there was what HAD to have been an edit, and then they went into the next song.

The last two or three songs were pretty good, and for an encore they played the album's version of an "epic," a song called "Infinite Fire," which is a little over twelve minutes long.

However:

The DVD does KIND of have an "Easter egg"-
After the band says good night, takes a bow, and the credits are done rolling, they come back out on stage and play a song that isn't listed anywhere in the credits:
A cover of the Deep Purple song "Space Truckin' " which has McPherson, Morse and Portnoy each singing a verse of it.
Good stuff.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: hefdaddy42 on December 20, 2014, 07:14:51 PM
Gee, I thought this was a DT thread.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: chaossystem on December 20, 2014, 07:43:01 PM
Well, Mike Portnoy was DT's original drummer, and they DID play the DT SONG "Repentance"

Plus I did make a comparison about what constitutes an "epic."
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: The Letter M on December 20, 2014, 07:53:51 PM
Back to epics...anyone hope that the band DON'T put another 18+ minute epic on the next album? Since 8VM, we've had 4 out of 5 albums containing side-length tracks (8VM, ITPOE, TCOT, and IT), with only ADTOE giving us a break from them. It's felt like a bit of a DT staple, but I don't want the band to be expected to make another epic like that. They're not Transatlantic after all. :lol

I think another album like ADTOE or FII with a couple 10-13 minute tracks would be nice, especially since I think they work best in that range of song lengths. I suppose it largely depends on the format of the album, though, like for instance, if it's a concept album, they may do all shorter tracks and no epics. They could also go the other route with concept albums and do long stretches of songs that sound like side-length epics (that is, 2-4 songs linked together to form suites of 18-25 minutes, or something like that).

-Marc.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: BlobVanDam on December 20, 2014, 09:19:21 PM
I think ADTOE was a perfect balance of song lengths, with shorter songs, and longer songs, without a super long epic to take away time from having a variety of song types. I feel DT12 was lacking in variety in that regard.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: erwinrafael on December 20, 2014, 09:50:12 PM
DT did epics only every other album since SDOIT. ITPOE, for me, are composed of two separate tracks and they are composed as bookends of an album.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: The Letter M on December 20, 2014, 10:29:43 PM
DT did epics only every other album since SDOIT. ITPOE, for me, are composed of two separate tracks and they are composed as bookends of an album.

Except the song was composed as one song. If you watch the "Making Of" documentary that came with the album, you'll even noticed that when JP is tracking his guitar solo at the end of the 2nd movement, just before it fades into wind sounds, you hear JM's bass come in 8 beats after the final note of the guitar solo. The song was conceived as ONE piece, not as two. It wasn't until the album was further along that they decided to split it for various reasons, mostly because the first parts felt like a good album opener, but the ending felt like a good album closer, and to avoid doing two albums in a row with a major epic at the end, they decided to split the epic on the album, but perform it as one piece when given the chance.

I'm glad they made that choice, though, because otherwise, the track record for ending albums with epics would've nearly been every album since SDOIT - "Six Degrees Of Inner Turbulence", "In The Name Of God", "Octavarium", "In The Presence Of Enemies", "The Count Of Tuscany", and eventually "Illumination Theory". Heck, even going backwards, "Finally Free" was pretty epic, though not the longest track on the album, and "Trial Of Tears" was fairly epic and the longest track on FII, and without "Space-Dye Vest", "Scarred" would've ended Awake, while "Learning To Live" also closed IAW (and was also the longest track on the album).

It always seems that their epics, which are usually the first tracks they write when going back into the studio, happen to end up at the end of their albums. I'm OK with this, really, but it has been a bit predictable, hasn't it?

-Marc.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: erwinrafael on December 20, 2014, 10:37:32 PM
Well, albums have to close with a proper climax so I am ok with having epics or epic sounding songs closing albums. BAI and Scarred provided proper climaxes ro the albums as well, with some propee epilogue-type songs affterwards.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: The Letter M on December 20, 2014, 10:40:57 PM
Well, albums have to close with a proper climax so I am ok with having epics or epic sounding songs closing albums. BAI and Scarred provided proper climaxes ro the albums as well, with some propee epilogue-type songs affterwards.

ADTOE and Awake have this unique triptych of songs that close their albums that I really enjoy. The run of "Lifting Shadows Off A Dream"/"Scarred"/"Space-Dye Vest" is a wonderful way to close that album just as much as "Far From Heaven"/"Breaking All Illusions"/"Beneath The Surface" was, although the latter was a bit more cohesive as a side of vinyl and a closing set.

If DT would produce another set of three songs (totalling in 18-24 minutes) like this for their next album, I'd be happy with that.

-Marc.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: ? on December 21, 2014, 12:16:08 AM
I think ADTOE was a perfect balance of song lengths, with shorter songs, and longer songs, without a super long epic to take away time from having a variety of song types. I feel DT12 was lacking in variety in that regard.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: chaossystem on December 21, 2014, 01:24:04 PM
Back to epics...anyone hope that the band DON'T put another 18+ minute epic on the next album? Since 8VM, we've had 4 out of 5 albums containing side-length tracks (8VM, ITPOE, TCOT, and IT), with only ADTOE giving us a break from them. It's felt like a bit of a DT staple, but I don't want the band to be expected to make another epic like that. They're not Transatlantic after all. :lol

I think another album like ADTOE or FII with a couple 10-13 minute tracks would be nice, especially since I think they work best in that range of song lengths. I suppose it largely depends on the format of the album, though, like for instance, if it's a concept album, they may do all shorter tracks and no epics. They could also go the other route with concept albums and do long stretches of songs that sound like side-length epics (that is, 2-4 songs linked together to form suites of 18-25 minutes, or something like that).

-Marc.

The general consensus on here seems to be that most of us don't care if they record another really long song on the next album, as long as they do something GOOD.

I don't care if the longest song on the next album is 15 minutes, or TWICE that length.
But I do hope it's better than "Illumination Theory."

Another reason I don't care about the length of the tracks is because just like longer isn't always better, shorter isn't a guarantee of quality, either.
In my opinion, some of their worst songs have been some of their shortest, such as "Disappear," Vacant," "Beneath the Surface," and "Far From Heaven."

On the other hand, some of the shorter songs have also been some of my favorites, such as 6:00 being a close second after scarred, and As I Am or A Rite of Passage.

If they do another over 15 min. epic, I hope it can match or exceed the quality of ACoS, or Octavarium.

Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: hefdaddy42 on December 21, 2014, 09:06:59 PM
In my opinion, some of their worst songs have been some of their shortest, such as "Disappear," Vacant," "Beneath the Surface," and "Far From Heaven."
Those are all great songs.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: erwinrafael on December 21, 2014, 09:27:17 PM
In my opinion, some of their worst songs have been some of their shortest, such as "Disappear," Vacant," "Beneath the Surface," and "Far From Heaven."
Those are all great songs.

Wait for it, somebody will predictably bring out the opinion/taste/subjectivity cue card. Wait for it.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: TheGreatPretender on December 21, 2014, 09:30:43 PM
In my opinion, some of their worst songs have been some of their shortest, such as "Disappear," Vacant," "Beneath the Surface," and "Far From Heaven."
Those are all great songs.

Unless by worst he means least awesome, in which case, they're still awesome.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: The Letter M on December 21, 2014, 09:57:29 PM
In my opinion, some of their worst songs have been some of their shortest, such as "Disappear," Vacant," "Beneath the Surface," and "Far From Heaven."
Those are all great songs.

Unless by worst he means least awesome, in which case, they're still awesome.

Indeed. And looking at the songs mentioned, they're all softer ballads, mostly piano-driven with minimal instrumentation. Not what one would typically associate with Dream Theater's more progressive, heavy and complex metal side, but music like this is a great way for the band to flex their musical muscles. I guess chaossystem just doesn't like songs like that from Dream Theater, but that being his personal taste, I think the general consensus regarding those songs (and those types of songs) within the DT catalog is generally positive.

-Marc.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: TheGreatPretender on December 21, 2014, 10:06:28 PM
Wait for it, somebody will predictably bring out the opinion/taste/subjectivity cue card. Wait for it.

I guess chaossystem just doesn't like songs like that from Dream Theater, but that being his personal taste,

You called it, erwinrafael.  :lol
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: erwinrafael on December 21, 2014, 10:19:47 PM
Wait for it, somebody will predictably bring out the opinion/taste/subjectivity cue card. Wait for it.

I guess chaossystem just doesn't like songs like that from Dream Theater, but that being his personal taste,

You called it, erwinrafael.  :lol

It's one of the hallmarks of English speaking forums.  :lol
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: The Letter M on December 21, 2014, 10:27:02 PM
Wait for it, somebody will predictably bring out the opinion/taste/subjectivity cue card. Wait for it.

I guess chaossystem just doesn't like songs like that from Dream Theater, but that being his personal taste,

You called it, erwinrafael.  :lol

To be honest, I wasn't even going to reply until erwinrafael said that, so it's not so much that he called it but that I just responded in kind. :lol :tup

I mean, it all really is up to the individual anyway, but I think we're all smart enough here to know that that's implied, but it's good to be reminded of it every now and then.

Back to the topic at hand, songs like "Vacant" and "Far From Heaven" I think really add to an album, even if they're soft ballads and often the shortest track on an album. In some ways, they're the polar opposite of DT's epics, which are long and sprawling, full of various sounds and large amounts of instrumentation. I think they work well to compliment the band's longer tracks. If it weren't for them, we'd have albums with a lot of the same loud, heavy material all over it.

I can't imagine TOT being as good if it didn't have "Vacant" in the middle of the album, especially as the set-up to "Stream Of Consciousness". Likewise, the placement of "Disappear" before the title track on SDOIT is quite strategic, giving the listener a breather between the previous 40 minutes of long tracks and the next 40 minutes of an epic. Other ones, like "Far Form Heaven" and "Wait For Sleep" set up their following epic pretty well, while others like "Through Her Eyes" and "The Silent Man" come between large portions of long and heavy tracks.

Without them, the epics might seem like too much in the full scheme of an album. So I say, the epics are rather saved by the ballads in some respects, at least, to provide the contrast that DT likes to have, to show their diversity. Even an album of nearly all epics such as BC&SL needed the soft ballad in "Wither", just to give us a break between all the epics. Otherwise, it would've been a bunch of long songs without much variety.

-Marc.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: erwinrafael on December 21, 2014, 11:48:55 PM
So I say, the epics are rather saved by the ballads in some respects, at least, to provide the contrast that DT likes to have, to show their diversity. Even an album of nearly all epics such as BC&SL needed the soft ballad in "Wither", just to give us a break between all the epics. Otherwise, it would've been a bunch of long songs without much variety.

Exactly. Without the diversity, it would sound like a Haken album.  :lol
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: The Letter M on December 21, 2014, 11:58:43 PM
So I say, the epics are rather saved by the ballads in some respects, at least, to provide the contrast that DT likes to have, to show their diversity. Even an album of nearly all epics such as BC&SL needed the soft ballad in "Wither", just to give us a break between all the epics. Otherwise, it would've been a bunch of long songs without much variety.

Exactly. Without the diversity, it would sound like a Haken album.  :lol

Psh, "Cockroach King" is PLENTY diverse! At least they're more diverse than latter-day Symphony X. ;)

-Marc.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: erwinrafael on December 22, 2014, 12:14:40 AM
So I say, the epics are rather saved by the ballads in some respects, at least, to provide the contrast that DT likes to have, to show their diversity. Even an album of nearly all epics such as BC&SL needed the soft ballad in "Wither", just to give us a break between all the epics. Otherwise, it would've been a bunch of long songs without much variety.

Exactly. Without the diversity, it would sound like a Haken album.  :lol

Psh, "Cockroach King" is PLENTY diverse! At least they're more diverse than latter-day Symphony X. ;)

-Marc.

True. Cockroach King is a breath of fresh air in The Mountain. I actually like Haken on a per song basis (Atlas Stone is amazing) but I find listening through a Haken album a chore because the songs keep on hitting the same notes, same themes. It lacks the balance of DT albums, like your point about the piano ballads actually making a good counterpoint to the epic songs. For DT, i almost always listen through full albums as they are very well constructed, with a good intro, a variety of heavy and softer songs, then a proper climax (usually a very long epic, or something like LtL, Scarred, or BAI). DT albums are constructed almost like a live set in the sequencing of songs, especially the Dream Theater album.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: Rodni Demental on December 22, 2014, 01:25:49 AM
That's something I kinda take for granted with DT albums actually, they're normally a very "full" experience as opposed to just a collection of songs chucked on a CD to comprise an album. There's always variety and contrast, it seems like they really think about the "flow"of the album, and seems like they've consistently been doing 2 parts to their albums the whole time aswell. I generally listen to albums instead of just songs because I'm normally listening for long periods of time while doing other things, but there aren't too many bands where I can do the whole album experience (and enjoy all of it) because even with some of my top bands, they still have a bunch of filler or just samey songs where only a few of them will click with me. I don't wanna sound like I'm putting DT on a pedestal because there are some really well constructed albums out there but it's nice DT do care about the bigger picture regarding this sorta thing. (pun completely intended :P) You get more replay value out of the album and even some of the songs that you might not otherwise deliberately listen to. Could even play a part in why many of us know every song the band has ever done.  :lol
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: hefdaddy42 on December 22, 2014, 06:50:14 AM
I think that Vacant is the best song on TOT.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: chaossystem on December 22, 2014, 02:33:19 PM
A couple of problems need to be addressed here:

First of all, it looks like a lot of you missed the point of what I was trying to say.
I wasn't judging the four songs that I named, I was just saying that while I usually name one of the shorter songs as being my "favorite" from each album, it doesn't automatically mean that the shorter songs are better than the longer ones.
Regardless of style.

I wasn't judging those particular songs or the people who like them.
I was just citing them as examples of DT songs that I don't like.


The other issue is that I think I'm being accused of-or even branded as-a "hater" when it comes to DT's ballads.
In which case I submit to you the following-
Now I don't know if ALL of these songs qualify as ballads...

Another Day
Surrounded
Wait for Sleep
The Silent Man
Space-Dye Vest
I think I'm one of the few who thinks that the original and LiveTime "acoustic" versions of Hollow Years are as good as, or better than the Budokan "electric" version!
Also, the LiveTime version of Take Away My Pain
The Spirit Carries on
Solitary Shell
The Answer Lies Within (though I do prefer the Score version of this song)
Repentance
The instrumental version of Wither
This is the Life
Along for the Ride

...but I would hardly consider these songs to be "metal"
And at least most of them aren't really "prog" either.
But I can tell you the one thing that all of these songs DO have in common:

They are all songs that I like.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: TheCountOfNYC on December 22, 2014, 03:37:14 PM
I think that Vacant is the best song on TOT.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: hefdaddy42 on December 23, 2014, 09:41:34 AM
First of all, it looks like a lot of you missed the point of what I was trying to say.
I don't think so.  It seemed pretty clear that this:

I was just citing them as examples of DT songs that I don't like.
was your point

The other issue is that I think I'm being accused of-or even branded as-a "hater" when it comes to DT's ballads.
I don't think that is an issue.  I haven't seen that phrase used by anyone.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: chaossystem on December 23, 2014, 01:32:05 PM
In my opinion, some of their worst songs have been some of their shortest, such as "Disappear," Vacant," "Beneath the Surface," and "Far From Heaven."
Those are all great songs.

Unless by worst he means least awesome, in which case, they're still awesome.

Indeed. And looking at the songs mentioned, they're all softer ballads, mostly piano-driven with minimal instrumentation. Not what one would typically associate with Dream Theater's more progressive, heavy and complex metal side, but music like this is a great way for the band to flex their musical muscles. [I guess chaossystem just doesn't like songs like that from Dream Theater], but that being his personal taste, I think the general consensus regarding those songs (and those types of songs) within the DT catalog is generally positive.

-Marc.

This is what I meant.

Maybe nobody actually used words like "hate" or "hater," but that still seems like a broad statement.

Like saying that anyone who doesn't like those specific songs that I named-and there are a few others-doesn't like it when the band does that type of music at all.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: chaossystem on December 24, 2014, 01:18:24 PM
 :metal
That's something I kinda take for granted with DT albums actually, they're normally a very "full" experience as opposed to just a collection of songs chucked on a CD to comprise an album. There's always variety and contrast, it seems like they really think about the "flow"of the album, and seems like they've consistently been doing 2 parts to their albums the whole time aswell. I generally listen to albums instead of just songs because I'm normally listening for long periods of time while doing other things, but there aren't too many bands where I can do the whole album experience (and enjoy all of it) because even with some of my top bands, they still have a bunch of filler or just samey songs where only a few of them will click with me. I don't wanna sound like I'm putting DT on a pedestal because there are some really well constructed albums out there but it's nice DT do care about the bigger picture regarding this sorta thing. (pun completely intended :P) You get more replay value out of the album and even some of the songs that you might not otherwise deliberately listen to. Could even play a part in why many of us know every song the band has ever done.  :lol

I think a good way to answer the original question would be to say:
"Saved by the epic?"
No!

But..

Saved by the variety?
HELL yes!!!

In fact I HATE it when they are referred to as JUST a prog, metal or "prog-metal" band, when I know there is so much more TO them than that!

I also think that what I have been trying to say is that while I do love the variety, i'ts one of the things that makes Dream Theater one of the greatest bands ever, there are certain things, such as the ballads and the epics that are pretty much hit and miss with me, and I'm sure there are many others who see it the same way.

In other words, for every song like "The Answer lies within" or "Along for the Ride," which I think are as good as any of their earlier ballads, there are songs like "Beneath the Surface" and "Far From Heaven" that just don't DO anything for me.

Similarly there are are songs like "A Change of Seasons" and "Octavrium" that are absolute CLASSICS as far as I'm concerned, but there are other epics, such as "The Count of Tuscany" and "Illumination Theory" that, while good,to me they're a little weak, and  I just don't think they're AS good as what I KNOW the band is capable of.

The same can be said for a lot of the songs in the other categories as well. I don't know WHY I like "Lie" as an example, but don't much care for "The Mirror."
I guess it's just one of those things...


                                                                                              :metal
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: bosk1 on December 24, 2014, 01:28:50 PM
...for every song like "The Answer lies within" or "Along for the Ride," which I think are as good as any of their earlier ballads, there are songs like "Beneath the Surface" and "Far From Heaven" that just don't DO anything for me.

I'll just go off on this brief tangent to mention that, while I understand why you would put Along for the Ride in the same general category as those other songs, one of the things that is so fascinating to me about Along for the Ride is that it is really quite unique and different from other softer songs.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: chaossystem on December 24, 2014, 02:05:11 PM
I don't know if you would consider Another Day to be a ballad, but if you go back and listen to it, the style of Along for the Ride is VERY similar.

However, I think the the one major difference in the keyboard sounds is due to the fact that the technology to makes those kinds of sounds didn't exist back then.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: bosk1 on December 24, 2014, 02:14:28 PM
I don't know if you would consider Another Day to be a ballad, but if you go back and listen to it, the style of Along for the Ride is VERY similar.

I disagree.  I mean, even aside from the fact that I think Another Day is one of DT's absolute worst songs, whereas Along for the Ride may be top 20.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: chaossystem on December 24, 2014, 02:57:17 PM
Ok.

But why don't you like it?

"one of the WORST?"

Wow!

That's HARSH!

Anyway, I hope you understand that I didn't mean that the two songs sound like each other.

I just meant that I think the STYLE is very similar.

oops!
Forgot to ask:
In what way do you mean that AftR is unique?
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: BlobVanDam on December 24, 2014, 03:14:48 PM
I don't know if you would consider Another Day to be a ballad, but if you go back and listen to it, the style of Along for the Ride is VERY similar.

I disagree.  I mean, even aside from the fact that I think Another Day is one of DT's absolute worst songs, whereas Along for the Ride may be top 20.

Along for the Ride is a block of cheese.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: chaossystem on December 24, 2014, 03:16:12 PM
That could be taken so many ways!

How do YOU mean it?
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: TheGreatPretender on December 24, 2014, 03:35:41 PM
It's delicious and can be melted over nachos.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: BlobVanDam on December 24, 2014, 03:42:20 PM
That could be taken so many ways!

How do YOU mean it?

I really don't think it can.



Even though the comparison is an insult to cheese, because real cheese makes everything better, but metaphorical cheese, apparently not.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: chaossystem on December 24, 2014, 03:50:28 PM
What I meant was, what with all the talk about "lactose intolerance" these days, I thought you were comparing the song to something that makes people sick by clogging arteries, nasal passages, etc.

Now me, I love milk and all or most milk by-products, but some people tend to get very "preachy" about how we should never use or consume any of those things.

That's why I wanted to be clear on your meaning.

And I STRONGLY disagree with you about AftR. If you want to hear CHEESE (not to mention SLEAZE!) listen to some of the god-awful crap that they're playing on the top 40 stations these days!!!
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: TheGreatPretender on December 24, 2014, 04:13:51 PM
And I STRONGLY disagree with you about AftR.

I don't always agree with chaossystem... But when I do... It's Christmas.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: chaossystem on December 24, 2014, 04:31:48 PM
Merry Christmas to you, too...

...And the REST of my "forum friends!"
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: erwinrafael on December 24, 2014, 04:52:33 PM
While I somehow like AftR, it is a block of cheese. Just like The Answer Lies Within and I Walk Beside You. :P
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: Dublagent66 on December 24, 2014, 08:27:05 PM
That could be taken so many ways!

How do YOU mean it?

I really don't think it can.



Even though the comparison is an insult to cheese, because real cheese makes everything better, but metaphorical cheese, apparently not.

True.  Cheese and music in the same sentence is rarely a good thing.  :lol
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: TheGreatPretender on December 24, 2014, 08:56:03 PM
Well, AftR is still a fantastic song even if you find the lyrics cheesy. That's a subjective opinion anyway, like if I were to say that the lyrics for LSOAD are pretentious.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: wolfking on December 24, 2014, 08:57:34 PM
Agree with Blob, AFTR is a cheese fest. 

Also,

Another Day >>>>>>>>>>>>> AFTR.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: Öxölklöfför on December 25, 2014, 04:16:45 AM
In my book, "epic" is defined by a track that is "20:ish" minutes long. It's nothing that I explicitly have "decided" for myself, it's just how I have come to think about it.

With that said, I do agree on that it has been discussed to death.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: chaossystem on December 25, 2014, 01:32:59 PM
Agree with Blob, AFTR is a cheese fest. 

Also,

Another Day >>>>>>>>>>>>> AFTR.

What does ">>>>>>>>>" mean?

Also, is anyone HONESTLY going to say that Along for the Ride is the first and only "Cheesy" thing DT has ever done??
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: rumborak on December 25, 2014, 02:19:35 PM
> in math means greater-than, >> means much-greater-than. You get the idea.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: chaossystem on December 25, 2014, 02:46:27 PM
So I guess it means "much, much, much...." greater.

Anyway, Bosk would probably have those two songs reversed, and I'm not taking a side, because I think they're bOTH very good.

So there!
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: Rodni Demental on December 25, 2014, 08:20:32 PM
Agree with Blob, AFTR is a cheese fest. 

Also,

Another Day >>>>>>>>>>>>> AFTR.

What does ">>>>>>>>>" mean?

Also, is anyone HONESTLY going to say that Along for the Ride is the first and only "Cheesy" thing DT has ever done??

Nope, Dream Theater has been oozing cheese since probably the beginning, can easily be pointed out on parts of I&W and especially FII and many more onwards. In all fairness, I think cheese is one of the band's key ingredients, even if it's occasssionally a bit strong for some people's taste. :P
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: kirksnosehair on December 26, 2014, 01:37:45 PM

There can never be enough cheese.   Cheese is like bacon - it makes everything better  :biggrin:

Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: TAC on December 26, 2014, 01:39:33 PM

There can never be enough cheese.   Cheese is like bacon - it makes everything better  :biggrin:
Especially when it's cheese and bacon together!!!
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: chaossystem on December 26, 2014, 02:10:30 PM
Well, if you overdo it, it CAN be bad for you.

Just like I find that if I don't occasionally mix in a little bit of other music, I COULD get sick of just listening to DT or metal bands such as Metallica and Maiden.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: Fredo96993 on December 28, 2014, 02:37:58 PM
This is the criteria I used for an epic:
No Chorus
At least ten minutes long
A change in musical direction

These things tend to go hand in hand.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: Mosh on December 28, 2014, 03:12:34 PM
Octavarium, Six Degrees, Learning To Live, those all have choruses. Just to name a few.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: The Letter M on December 28, 2014, 05:00:35 PM
This is the criteria I used for an epic:
No Chorus
At least ten minutes long
A change in musical direction

These things tend to go hand in hand.

By that criteria, then "Stream Of Consciousness" surely is an epic, right? :tup

-Marc.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: chaossystem on December 28, 2014, 06:47:39 PM
Well,
maybe they count the instrumentals separately.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: Fredo96993 on December 29, 2014, 05:16:57 AM
Octavarium doesn't have a chorus, LTL I don't class as an epic but rather a long song, 6DOIT is a whole argument in itself as to whether it is a song and SoC is an instrumental and I would say an epic has to have vocals.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: BlobVanDam on December 29, 2014, 05:45:27 AM
Octavarium has at least one chorus, SDOIT counts as an epic and has several choruses, ACOS has at least one chorus (cbf checking), ITPOE has at least one chorus, IT has a chorus. I'd say all of DT's epics have choruses in them.

Epic is a pretty arbitrary term, but on DTF the general consensus is that the 20+ minute songs are the "epics", with IT and TCOT in a bit of a grey area, with several other other songs that are considered just as epic, but not considered part of that same small group of songs.

This is the criteria I used for an epic:
No Chorus
At least ten minutes long
A change in musical direction

These things tend to go hand in hand.

That's not the criteria for a DT epic, that's the criteria for maximum pretentiousness. :lol
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: The Letter M on December 29, 2014, 11:42:30 AM
Epic is a pretty arbitrary term, but on DTF the general consensus is that the 20+ minute songs are the "epics", with IT and TCOT in a bit of a grey area, with several other other songs that are considered just as epic, but not considered part of that same small group of songs.

We might as well just change the "20+ minute" criterion to either 18 or 19+ because DT haven't done any songs between 16:10 and 19:16 minutes (both songs from BC&SL oddly enough), so there's this huge 3-minute gap of song lengths that they haven't covered, so it would just make sense to be able to include IT and TCOT since they're 19-ish minutes and are much closer to the epics than anything below them.

-Marc.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: ThatOneGuy2112 on December 29, 2014, 11:44:43 AM
^that

I don't think there's much debate that IT isn't an epic either.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: The Letter M on December 29, 2014, 12:21:20 PM
^that

I don't think there's much debate that IT isn't an epic either.

Yeah, IT and TCOT both have the (semi-arbitrary) length qualification down, and they both end their respective albums. They just happen to be between 19 and 20 minutes long, and not above 20. Besides, in the days of vinyl, side-length epics still ranged from 18-25 minutes long, and an 18-minute track would take up a side of vinyl with nothing else on it, like Yes' "Close To The Edge" or Rush's "Hemispheres", both in the 18-19 minute range.

-Marc.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: TheGreatPretender on December 29, 2014, 06:07:41 PM
This is the criteria I used for an epic:
No Chorus
At least ten minutes long
A change in musical direction

These things tend to go hand in hand.

That's not the criteria for a DT epic, that's the criteria for maximum pretentiousness. :lol

We have a whole thread for this, and I do not recall a single song DT has that's over 10 minutes that does not have a chorus... So I guess that means that ACOS and 8VM aren't epics.   :lol
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: chaossystem on December 29, 2014, 06:51:59 PM
I think it's RIDICULOUS to say that "Illumination Theory" isn't an epic because it misses the "20-min. mark" by a minute or less.

At the very LEAST "Learning to Live", "Lines in the Sand", "Trial of Tears", "Beyond This Life", "Home", "The Glass Prison", "The Great Debate", "In the Name of God", "In the Presence of Enemies (at LEAST part two!)", "The Count of Tuscany", "A Nightmare to Remember", "The Shattered Fortress", "Breaking All Illusions", and some others that I've probably left out should ALL be considered epics.

All of the songs that I've named are over ELEVEN minutes long, and I think it is INSANE to say that a song of that length is too SHORT to be considered an epic!

There are other songs that I've mentioned before that are more than 8 or 9 minutes long, but at the very least I think this is a good COMPROMISE!
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: BlobVanDam on December 29, 2014, 07:04:28 PM
Epic is a pretty arbitrary term, but on DTF the general consensus is that the 20+ minute songs are the "epics", with IT and TCOT in a bit of a grey area, with several other other songs that are considered just as epic, but not considered part of that same small group of songs.

We might as well just change the "20+ minute" criterion to either 18 or 19+ because DT haven't done any songs between 16:10 and 19:16 minutes (both songs from BC&SL oddly enough), so there's this huge 3-minute gap of song lengths that they haven't covered, so it would just make sense to be able to include IT and TCOT since they're 19-ish minutes and are much closer to the epics than anything below them.

-Marc.

While I don't consider them more epic than many shorter DT songs given their structures (moreso for TCOT) and padding (moreso for IT), they do fill the "epic" role of the album, being the longest last track of their respective albums, so that makes some sense.
Since it is such an arbitrary definition, I'm not sure it really matters either way, so I won't debate it further. That's probably getting too trivial even for DTF. :lol
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: Rodni Demental on December 29, 2014, 07:40:00 PM
At the very LEAST "Learning to Live", "Lines in the Sand", "Trial of Tears", "Beyond This Life", "Home", "The Glass Prison", "The Great Debate", "In the Name of God", "In the Presence of Enemies (at LEAST part two!)", "The Count of Tuscany", "A Nightmare to Remember", "The Shattered Fortress", "Breaking All Illusions", and some others that I've probably left out should ALL be considered epics.

All of the songs that I've named are over ELEVEN minutes long, and I think it is INSANE to say that a song of that length is too SHORT to be considered an epic!

Yeah, a lot of those songs are pretty 'epic' per se, but we seem to have such strict definitions here for these otherwise very ambiguous descriptions. Most of the songs you mentioned might as well be considered pretty epic, at LEAST relative to other songs and especially other bands. But I think some of them like The Great Debate and Beyond this Life, also probably Home, I sort of consider as "long songs". They've got fairly standard structures, but generally have a heavily extended instrumental section of some sort which separates them from other standard songs. So it's sort of a case of 'One' Syndrome (Metallica) in a lot of cases. Or Endless Sacrifice syndrome in DT terms as a good example of the type of structure I'm describing. Can also be observed in other songs like The Ministry of Lost Souls, Outcry, Sacrificed Sons. A Rite of Passage sort of goes down that path too. I think that's something to do with why they're not quite in the same category as the "Mega epics" if you will.  :lol
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: hefdaddy42 on December 30, 2014, 10:09:40 AM
At the very LEAST "Learning to Live", "Lines in the Sand", "Trial of Tears", "Beyond This Life", "Home", "The Glass Prison", "The Great Debate", "In the Name of God", "In the Presence of Enemies (at LEAST part two!)", "The Count of Tuscany", "A Nightmare to Remember", "The Shattered Fortress", "Breaking All Illusions", and some others that I've probably left out should ALL be considered epics.

All of the songs that I've named are over ELEVEN minutes long, and I think it is INSANE to say that a song of that length is too SHORT to be considered an epic!
No.  This is DT, 11 minutes is pretty average.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: Mosh on December 30, 2014, 09:42:01 PM
Length is pretty irrelevant imo. Songs like Scarred or Learning to Live or Trial of Tears feel just as "epic" as songs like Octavarium or Illumination Theory to me.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: Fredo96993 on December 31, 2014, 07:30:51 AM
OMG I did not realise that the chorus thing would need to be explained.
I mean a chorus that is used throughout the whole song. So Octavarium doesn't have a chorus running all the way through it whereas Home or The Great Debate do. I agree my length thing means that I have to argue with my myself over "Is Metropolis Part 1 an epic?".
Trial of Tears is an epic IMO but Scarred is not because it has a chorus running through it. ANTR is an epic because even though it reprises stuff from the first few verses it isn't a chorus.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: bosk1 on December 31, 2014, 09:07:00 AM
OMG I did not realise that the chorus thing would need to be explained.

Well, it does in this context since you are using the term "chorus" in a way that is very different from the actual definition or the standard usage of the term.  I chorus does NOT have to be used throughout the whole song.  If you don't want to consider it a chorus unless it is used throughout the whole song, that's fine.  But in that case, yeah, you do need to explain what you mean because that isn't how others use the term.

But that said, granted that when you are talking about progressive music, more traditional usages and definitions of words get tricky because progressive blurs the lines and makes things hard to categorize.  The whole mission of prog is to color outside the lines, so to speak.  So getting overly pedantic about terms is often a futile exercise, and it is next to impossible to get universal agreement on a lot of things.  Heck, we can't even get agreement over things that are completely objective, such as whether Six Degrees is a song.  :lol  But even that is a good illustration of the fact that, because it does not fit traditional notions of what constitutes a single "song," people understandably have trouble with the concept.  More imprecise terms, such as "epic" get even more tricky because there aren't any set rules.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: hefdaddy42 on December 31, 2014, 10:15:38 AM
I dunno.  Wait For Sleep is pretty epic, in its own way.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: chaossystem on December 31, 2014, 12:13:29 PM
At the very LEAST "Learning to Live", "Lines in the Sand", "Trial of Tears", "Beyond This Life", "Home", "The Glass Prison", "The Great Debate", "In the Name of God", "In the Presence of Enemies (at LEAST part two!)", "The Count of Tuscany", "A Nightmare to Remember", "The Shattered Fortress", "Breaking All Illusions", and some others that I've probably left out should ALL be considered epics.

All of the songs that I've named are over ELEVEN minutes long, and I think it is INSANE to say that a song of that length is too SHORT to be considered an epic!

Yeah, a lot of those songs are pretty 'epic' per se, but we seem to have such strict definitions here for these otherwise very ambiguous descriptions. Most of the songs you mentioned might as well be considered pretty epic, at LEAST relative to other songs and especially other bands. But I think some of them like The Great Debate and Beyond this Life, also probably Home, I sort of consider as "long songs". They've got fairly standard structures, but generally have a heavily extended instrumental section of some sort which separates them from other standard songs. So it's sort of a case of 'One' Syndrome (Metallica) in a lot of cases. Or Endless Sacrifice syndrome in DT terms as a good example of the type of structure I'm describing. Can also be observed in other songs like The Ministry of Lost Souls, Outcry, Sacrificed Sons. A Rite of Passage sort of goes down that path too. I think that's something to do with why they're not quite in the same category as the "Mega epics" if you will.  :lol

I forgot "The Ministry of Lost Souls" and "The Best of Times."
I don't really care for either of those songs, but being that they are both over ten minutes long, they should probably be included.

I was actually expecting a lot of people to say that I'm wrong, and don't know what the hell I'm talking about.
But you seem to understand what I"m trying to say.

However, if you were to put "A Rite of Passage" in the epic category, then you would probably have to include "pull Me Under" as well.
As much as I love both of those songs, and while some people might define them as epics, I think of them more as "extra-long singles."

I have previously mentioned that I think "Metropolis" should be considered an epic, but here I'll say not just because of it's almost ten-minute (and often a good deal longer when they play it live!) but also because of it's very elaborate arrangement, and choruses that are worded differently from each other.

But since they have so many songs that are in the six-to-eight-minute range, we probably have to use a different standard when determining what constitutes a "DT epic."

It's a tough call, but I guess it partially depends on the style and arrangement of the song  being taken into consideration before one that is over eight but under twenty minutes in length can be considered an epic...and on it goes...
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: hefdaddy42 on December 31, 2014, 12:39:25 PM
At one point, they only had one song that was really considered an epic - A Change of Seasons.  It was much longer than anything else they had, so that was the benchmark.

Then, eventually, came Six Degrees, which even exceeded ACOS in length.  So, finally, another epic.

Then came Octavarium, to create the Holy Trinity.  So, all of these were 20+ minutes.  They basically became the boundary markers. 

Therefore it seems strange to say that songs around the 10-12 minute mark (which aren't that unusual for DT) should be considered "epics" in the same breath that the Holy Trinity are, although I don't for a second hold any illusions that such songs don't have an "epic" feel to them (such as Learning To Live, Trial of Tears, Scarred, etc).
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: Rodni Demental on December 31, 2014, 10:00:21 PM
Therefore it seems strange to say that songs around the 10-12 minute mark (which aren't that unusual for DT) should be considered "epics" in the same breath that the Holy Trinity are, although I don't for a second hold any illusions that such songs don't have an "epic" feel to them (such as Learning To Live, Trial of Tears, Scarred, etc).

I get what you mean about ACOS being the benchmark for where it all stems from. BUT, even ACOS feels like an extension of the suite like structure they'd attempted a few times in the past. Ie. The Killing Hand, A Mind Beside Itself and Trial of Tears. Each part of the suite being one of the change of seasons. Where as the other suites also tell a story or have a progression of themes. So I think that's where these other songs tie in. Then we just start getting confused 'cause some songs seem to have this structure anyway, but aren't deliberately separated into sections.

And then after Octavarium, well it seems the idea of an epic has slightly become a type of standard for the band, and probably also because they actually enjoy writing these massive pieces. Whether they're defined as an epic or not, there is at least a song on each album that seems to at least serve the role of one of these big pieces. So now there isn't really a 'holy trinity' (unless you're considering subjective quality, but that's a different issue  :lol) because In the Presence of Enemies was clearly written to serve this role even if they ultimately altered it's portrayal on the album and did it a little differently. The Count of Tuscany was a little different again but still seemed to serve the role of "epic album closer". I'm surprised some people have even questioned if Illumination Theory is one because, to me, that one seemed like it was very deliberately trying to be the next Octavarium.

Also, regarding the other part of the discussion about what a chorus is. Can a song have a chorus even if it only plays it once, - if it appears to still serve the 'role' of 'chorus'?
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: Mosh on January 01, 2015, 01:05:23 AM
OMG I did not realise that the chorus thing would need to be explained.
I mean a chorus that is used throughout the whole song. So Octavarium doesn't have a chorus running all the way through it whereas Home or The Great Debate do. I agree my length thing means that I have to argue with my myself over "Is Metropolis Part 1 an epic?".
Trial of Tears is an epic IMO but Scarred is not because it has a chorus running through it. ANTR is an epic because even though it reprises stuff from the first few verses it isn't a chorus.
I dunno. If you extend your rule to other bands, Neal Morse writes huge epics (like 30 minutes) that have one chorus running through it. I don't know how that discounts the "epic" term. Close To the Edge by Yes is another good example and that's a benchmark for prog epics.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: hefdaddy42 on January 01, 2015, 05:28:46 AM
Therefore it seems strange to say that songs around the 10-12 minute mark (which aren't that unusual for DT) should be considered "epics" in the same breath that the Holy Trinity are, although I don't for a second hold any illusions that such songs don't have an "epic" feel to them (such as Learning To Live, Trial of Tears, Scarred, etc).

I get what you mean about ACOS being the benchmark for where it all stems from. BUT, even ACOS feels like an extension of the suite like structure they'd attempted a few times in the past. Ie. The Killing Hand, A Mind Beside Itself and Trial of Tears. Each part of the suite being one of the change of seasons. Where as the other suites also tell a story or have a progression of themes. So I think that's where these other songs tie in. Then we just start getting confused 'cause some songs seem to have this structure anyway, but aren't deliberately separated into sections.
I don't understand what you mean, unless you are talking about songs with different sections (I, II, III).  That isn't indicative of a suite at all, it's just a prog rock trope used by lots of bands.  It's just a way to subdivide a song (normally longer than usual, but look at FAS as well) into different parts.  But the only actual suite you listed was AMBI.  The others are just multi-part songs.  That seems like a fairly straightforward thing to see and accept to me, but confusion comes when people attempt to combine these different things together and say they are the same, rather than just accepting them as they are.

And then after Octavarium, well it seems it seems the idea of an epic has slightly become a type of standard for the band, and probably also because they actually enjoy writing these massive pieces. Whether they're defined as an epic or not, there is at least a song on each album that seems to at least serve the role of one of these big pieces. So now there isn't really a 'holy trinity' (unless you're considering subjective quality, but that's a different issue  :lol) because In the Presence of Enemies was clearly written to serve this role even if they ultimately altered it's portrayal on the album and did it a little differently. The Count of Tuscany was a little different again but still seemed to serve the role of "epic album closer". I'm surprised some people have even questioned if Illumination Theory is one because, to me, that one seemed like it was very deliberately trying to be the next Octavarium.
I agree with all of this, TCOT, ITPOE, and IT all are part of the club.  I was just going chronologically to explain how all of this started.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: Dublagent66 on January 01, 2015, 11:43:06 AM
I dunno.  Wait For Sleep is pretty epic, in its own way.

What you wrote in just a few words, speaks volumes.  Sometimes less is a lot MORE.  :hefdaddy :biggrin:
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: TheCountOfNYC on February 02, 2015, 04:09:13 PM
So to potentially put an end to the "is The Couny of Tuscany an epic" arguement, the band just posted a poll on Facebook asking fans what their favorite epic is and Count was included. Since they consider it an epic, I guess it is.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: Kotowboy on February 02, 2015, 04:20:47 PM
So to potentially put an end to the "is The Couny of Tuscany an epic" arguement, the band just posted a poll on Facebook asking fans what their favorite epic is and Count was included. Since they consider it an epic, I guess it is.

Not if the fans know better ! :getoffmylawn:
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: bosk1 on February 02, 2015, 04:50:16 PM
So to potentially put an end to the "is The Couny of Tuscany an epic" arguement, the band just posted a poll on Facebook asking fans what their favorite epic is and Count was included. Since they consider it an epic, I guess it is.

Of course it is an epic.  But no matter what the band says, it will not stop fans from arguing whatever they want to argue.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: metrojam on February 04, 2015, 05:44:03 AM
I don't think that any Epic has ever really needed to "save" any DT album, i.m.o. they enhance and put the icing on the cake of the albums. The only exception being IT which didn't put any icing on the cake but merely papered over the huge cracks on the very poor overall album that DT12 was/is.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: Kotowboy on February 04, 2015, 07:11:00 AM
Correct. I don't think any Epic has saved an album.


Take off any Epic from the tracklist and I don't think any DT album would be dreadful without it.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: The Presence of Frenemies on February 04, 2015, 04:02:48 PM
For my taste, the only DT album for which the longest song(s) completely overshadowed shorter ones is Octavarium. SC is maybe second because ITPOE and TMOLS are the best music on the album, but the rest is great too (save Repentance) even if it doesn't approach the top-5 greatness of the last two tracks. With DT12, IT is one of the better tracks, but it doesn't overshadow TBP and STR (due both to issues with IT and high quality of the other two).
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: hefdaddy42 on February 04, 2015, 06:52:07 PM
Correct. I don't think any Epic has saved an album.


Take off any Epic from the tracklist and I don't think any DT album would be dreadful without it.
Octavarium would be woefully mediocre without the title track.

It's still kind of mediocre even WITH it.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: BlobVanDam on February 04, 2015, 08:08:55 PM
Correct. I don't think any Epic has saved an album.


Take off any Epic from the tracklist and I don't think any DT album would be dreadful without it.
Octavarium would be woefully mediocre without the title track.

It's still kind of mediocre even WITH it.

Octavarium has plenty of other amazing tracks to save it, even if it does have a few really bad clunkers. Substitute Octavarium with DT12/IT and you've got a point though.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: ThatOneGuy2112 on February 04, 2015, 08:31:35 PM
None of the other tracks on 8V besides the title track itself are really that great or outstanding...with the possible exception of TROAE.

DT12 has plenty else going for it. Taking out IT, you'd still have a pretty strong album.

While I don't think 8V (the album) is mediocre as is, I agree with this wholeheartedly:

Octavarium would be woefully mediocre without the title track.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: BlobVanDam on February 04, 2015, 08:39:23 PM
I wouldn't call DT12 a strong album even with IT tbh. There's not a single song on the album I'd come back to at this point, not even IT. Octavarium still has TROAE, PA, TW, and SS. TW is probably top 10 for me, it's that good. I'd take any one of those tracks over anything on DT12. At best a couple of tracks might just nudge into my top 50.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: ThatOneGuy2112 on February 04, 2015, 08:48:39 PM
Eh, different strokes and all I guess.

DT12 has plenty I'd gladly come back to, most notably TBP, BTV, and of course, IT.

TROAE is good, I'll give you that one. PA I'd honestly love to like more, but I think it kinda just goes on a little too long after a certain point, and I have that same issue with SS. A lot of the verses and instrumental passages in that one just really fail to grab me.

I wouldn't call any of the songs in 8V besides the title track bad at all. It just kinda struggles to maintain a fine momentum and consistency IMO. If you dig it, all the more power to you.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: BlobVanDam on February 04, 2015, 08:58:21 PM
Eh, different strokes and all I guess.

DT12 has plenty I'd gladly come back to, most notably TBP, BTV, and of course, IT.

TROAE is good, I'll give you that one. PA I'd honestly love to like more, but I think it kinda just goes on a little too long after a certain point, and I have that same issue with SS. A lot of the verses and instrumental passages in that one just really fail to grab me.

I wouldn't call any of the songs in 8V besides the title track bad at all. It just kinda struggles to maintain a fine momentum and consistency IMO. If you dig it, all the more power to you.

I absolutely agree that as an album, the momentum on 8V is not good, because the tracks other than the ones mentioned are so badly placed to disrupt that flow. But as individual songs, the good tracks are as good as anything else for me.
DT12 does have a consistency of style to it, but nothing about the style of that album appeals to me, even though I'm usually a huge fan of DT's relatively shorter songs.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: hefdaddy42 on February 05, 2015, 10:36:16 AM
8VM has some other good things going for it, but its unevenness rivals that of FII.

TW is fantastic, TROAE is really good, and I like IWBY a lot.  PA, NE and SS are mediocre, and TALW is just awful.  So, minus the epic, I only care for 3 of the remaining 7.  It the epic wasn't on there, I would NEVER listen to this album.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: Kotowboy on February 05, 2015, 10:54:43 AM
Whereas Octavarium is my favourite DT album.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: hefdaddy42 on February 05, 2015, 10:56:27 AM
Whereas Octavarium is my favourite DT album.
No comment.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: King Postwhore on February 05, 2015, 10:58:25 AM
I do love the production of Octavarium. I know some don't because of chunk and balls but every instrument is blended at just the right levels for my taste.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: Kotowboy on February 05, 2015, 11:25:25 AM
Whereas Octavarium is my favourite DT album.
No comment.

I wouldn't expect one.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: TheCountOfNYC on February 05, 2015, 11:35:17 AM
Whereas Octavarium is my favourite DT album.
No comment.

I wouldn't expect one.

It was my favorite until I heard Scenes which is the greatest album I've ever listened to. Then Images and Words made its way past Octavarium into the number two slot. 8VM is still my number three though. The title track is simply the band's best work, and The Root of All Evil, These Walls, Panic Attack, and Sacrificed Sons are amazing songs as well. Never Enough gets way too much hate on here and is IMO an amazing song. The Answer Lies Within and I Walk Beside You, while nowhere near my Top 50, are still good songs and are important to the flow of the album. If they weren't there the whole album would be heavy with no soft moments save for some parts of SS and the title track. I love how the whole album is connected but in a different way than Scenes and Six Degrees are. While the title track is far and away the best song on the album, that says more about the title track than the other seven songs.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: BlobVanDam on February 05, 2015, 08:23:35 PM
8VM has some other good things going for it, but its unevenness rivals that of FII.

I'd call FII one of their more consistent albums, which is why I rank it #4. DT have much less even albums.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: Kotowboy on February 06, 2015, 01:40:42 AM
8VM has some other good things going for it, but its unevenness rivals that of FII.

I'd call FII one of their more consistent albums, which is why I rank it #4. DT have much less even albums.

They have 6 even albums . . .


and 6 odd albums :neverusethis:
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: BlobVanDam on February 06, 2015, 01:46:44 AM
Oh you!
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: Kotowboy on February 06, 2015, 01:53:09 AM
Thats the closest i get to a nerd joke :blob:
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: hefdaddy42 on February 06, 2015, 06:33:00 AM
8VM has some other good things going for it, but its unevenness rivals that of FII.

I'd call FII one of their more consistent albums, which is why I rank it #4.
Yeah, but you are an out-the-ordinary DT fan.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: BlobVanDam on February 06, 2015, 06:34:43 AM
8VM has some other good things going for it, but its unevenness rivals that of FII.

I'd call FII one of their more consistent albums, which is why I rank it #4.
Yeah, but you are an out-the-ordinary DT fan.

Is there a such thing as an ordinary DT fan? :biggrin:
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: hefdaddy42 on February 06, 2015, 11:10:57 AM
Yeah.  Most DT fans have at least some appreciation for other prog rock/prog metal.  You seem not to do so.

In fact, given what I know about some of your other tastes, I'm amazed that you even like DT lol
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: The Presence of Frenemies on February 06, 2015, 12:53:37 PM
From what I can gather of Blob's taste from various posts, I have pretty similar preferences, so he's not alone. And now that you mention it, there isn't much prog rock I like, and prog metal...depends where you'd classify Crimson Glory, Royal Hunt, Nevermore, Symphony X, Delta, etc. But Dream Theater's been my favorite band since the moment I first heard them in 2007.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: hefdaddy42 on February 06, 2015, 01:03:44 PM
From what I can gather of Blob's taste from various posts, I have pretty similar preferences, so he's not alone. And now that you mention it, there isn't much prog rock I like, and prog metal...depends where you'd classify Crimson Glory, Royal Hunt, Nevermore, Symphony X, Delta, etc. But Dream Theater's been my favorite band since the moment I first heard them in 2007.
I would imagine most of those bands would be considered prog metal or power metal.  Kissing cousins.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: The Presence of Frenemies on February 06, 2015, 04:05:08 PM
From what I can gather of Blob's taste from various posts, I have pretty similar preferences, so he's not alone. And now that you mention it, there isn't much prog rock I like, and prog metal...depends where you'd classify Crimson Glory, Royal Hunt, Nevermore, Symphony X, Delta, etc. But Dream Theater's been my favorite band since the moment I first heard them in 2007.
I would imagine most of those bands would be considered prog metal or power metal.  Kissing cousins.

Yeah, obviously the question would be where the progpower line is drawn.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: BlobVanDam on February 06, 2015, 08:32:12 PM
Yeah.  Most DT fans have at least some appreciation for other prog rock/prog metal.  You seem not to do so.

In fact, given what I know about some of your other tastes, I'm amazed that you even like DT lol

So am I, hef. So am I. :lol
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: hefdaddy42 on February 07, 2015, 04:23:51 AM
 :lol
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: Kotowboy on February 07, 2015, 04:27:41 AM
Dream Theater are the only band like Dream Theater that I like.

People have tried to get me into other similar bands but for some reason I don't enjoy them...

It's the same with other bands I like too. For instance - I love Green Day obviously but I can't stand any other band *like* them - Blink 182 for example.

I've said it before - but I like "bands" not "genres". Just because I like Mastodon - doesn't mean I automatically like Slayer.

I like Bryan Adams but i'm not a big fan of Bon Jovi... I like The Prodigy but I mostly hate Electronic Dance Music as a whole.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: hefdaddy42 on February 07, 2015, 05:02:23 AM
I would never categorize Mastodon with Slayer.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: Kotowboy on February 07, 2015, 05:18:15 AM
k
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: Kotowboy on February 07, 2015, 05:19:19 AM
Fo sho - i'd put Slayer in the same category as dog turd.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: Randaran on February 07, 2015, 08:50:24 AM
Fo sho - i'd put Slayer in the same category as dog turd.

 :(
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: metrojam on February 08, 2015, 03:23:46 PM
I wouldn't call DT12 a strong album even with IT tbh. There's not a single song on the album I'd come back to at this point, not even IT. Octavarium still has TROAE, PA, TW, and SS. TW is probably top 10 for me, it's that good. I'd take any one of those tracks over anything on DT12. At best a couple of tracks might just nudge into my top 50.

I agree with you 100% on this. I think only BTV and IT off of DT12 would have a chance of making my top 50 DT songs, the rest just sum up what a mediocre and career low (i.m.o.), quality album DT12 is.
Can't wait for the new one to hopefully delete any memory of that completely out of my mind! :)
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: erwinrafael on February 08, 2015, 03:53:00 PM
Is Surrwnder to Reason a bad song? I can not imagine how anybody can categorize that as a bad song.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: Kotowboy on February 08, 2015, 03:56:56 PM
Not bad per se. But I rank it second worst on DT12 with Along For The Ride being the very worst.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: 425 on February 09, 2015, 11:19:23 AM
To me, Surrender to Reason is one of a couple of songs on DT12 that people seem to worship but I think of as merely good. It and The Looking Glass. Both are certainly good songs, but I don't understand the level of fandom some people display towards them.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: Kotowboy on February 09, 2015, 01:18:31 PM
^ The same with me and " Breaking All Illusions ". I think it's merely OK.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: bosk1 on February 09, 2015, 01:29:26 PM
I don't think I could classify any song on DT12 as "merely OK."  Same with ADTOE, actually.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: hefdaddy42 on February 09, 2015, 01:56:23 PM
I don't think I could classify any song on DT12 as "merely OK."  Same with ADTOE, actually.
I'm not crazy about The Looking Glass, and I actively dislike BMUBMD.  But everything else on both albums is solid.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: wizard of Thought on February 09, 2015, 02:58:04 PM
I think it's RIDICULOUS to say that "Illumination Theory" isn't an epic because it misses the "20-min. mark" by a minute or less.

At the very LEAST "Learning to Live", "Lines in the Sand", "Trial of Tears", "Beyond This Life", "Home", "The Glass Prison", "The Great Debate", "In the Name of God", "In the Presence of Enemies (at LEAST part two!)", "The Count of Tuscany", "A Nightmare to Remember", "The Shattered Fortress", "Breaking All Illusions", and some others that I've probably left out should ALL be considered epics.

All of the songs that I've named are over ELEVEN minutes long, and I think it is INSANE to say that a song of that length is too SHORT to be considered an epic!

There are other songs that I've mentioned before that are more than 8 or 9 minutes long, but at the very least I think this is a good COMPROMISE!

Confering to this eleven minute mark, 4 out of 7 songs from ToT can be considered as epics. This would be a pretty crazy quote, wouldn`t it?
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: The Presence of Frenemies on February 09, 2015, 03:58:02 PM
I think it's RIDICULOUS to say that "Illumination Theory" isn't an epic because it misses the "20-min. mark" by a minute or less.

At the very LEAST "Learning to Live", "Lines in the Sand", "Trial of Tears", "Beyond This Life", "Home", "The Glass Prison", "The Great Debate", "In the Name of God", "In the Presence of Enemies (at LEAST part two!)", "The Count of Tuscany", "A Nightmare to Remember", "The Shattered Fortress", "Breaking All Illusions", and some others that I've probably left out should ALL be considered epics.

All of the songs that I've named are over ELEVEN minutes long, and I think it is INSANE to say that a song of that length is too SHORT to be considered an epic!

There are other songs that I've mentioned before that are more than 8 or 9 minutes long, but at the very least I think this is a good COMPROMISE!

Confering to this eleven minute mark, 4 out of 7 songs from ToT can be considered as epics. This would be a pretty crazy quote, wouldn`t it?

TDS, ES, HTF, and ITNOG are all epics. I don't really count SOC because it's a different beast.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: TheCountOfNYC on February 09, 2015, 08:15:50 PM
I think it's RIDICULOUS to say that "Illumination Theory" isn't an epic because it misses the "20-min. mark" by a minute or less.

At the very LEAST "Learning to Live", "Lines in the Sand", "Trial of Tears", "Beyond This Life", "Home", "The Glass Prison", "The Great Debate", "In the Name of God", "In the Presence of Enemies (at LEAST part two!)", "The Count of Tuscany", "A Nightmare to Remember", "The Shattered Fortress", "Breaking All Illusions", and some others that I've probably left out should ALL be considered epics.

All of the songs that I've named are over ELEVEN minutes long, and I think it is INSANE to say that a song of that length is too SHORT to be considered an epic!

There are other songs that I've mentioned before that are more than 8 or 9 minutes long, but at the very least I think this is a good COMPROMISE!

Confering to this eleven minute mark, 4 out of 7 songs from ToT can be considered as epics. This would be a pretty crazy quote, wouldn`t it?

4 out of 6 on BC&SL and 3 out of 6 on SDoIT as well.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: Mosh on February 09, 2015, 09:42:06 PM
^ The same with me and " Breaking All Illusions ". I think it's merely OK.
Agreed on BAI. It has a great Petrucci solo but the rest is kinda bland for DT standards. The fact that it's so long makes me less interested in listening to it. Although I have to admit it was pretty awesome live last year.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: hefdaddy42 on February 10, 2015, 06:37:59 AM
I think it's RIDICULOUS to say that "Illumination Theory" isn't an epic because it misses the "20-min. mark" by a minute or less.

At the very LEAST "Learning to Live", "Lines in the Sand", "Trial of Tears", "Beyond This Life", "Home", "The Glass Prison", "The Great Debate", "In the Name of God", "In the Presence of Enemies (at LEAST part two!)", "The Count of Tuscany", "A Nightmare to Remember", "The Shattered Fortress", "Breaking All Illusions", and some others that I've probably left out should ALL be considered epics.

All of the songs that I've named are over ELEVEN minutes long, and I think it is INSANE to say that a song of that length is too SHORT to be considered an epic!

There are other songs that I've mentioned before that are more than 8 or 9 minutes long, but at the very least I think this is a good COMPROMISE!

Confering to this eleven minute mark, 4 out of 7 songs from ToT can be considered as epics. This would be a pretty crazy quote, wouldn`t it?

TDS, ES, HTF, and ITNOG are all epics. I don't really count SOC because it's a different beast.
None of those are epics.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: bosk1 on February 10, 2015, 08:16:49 AM
I think it's RIDICULOUS to say that "Illumination Theory" isn't an epic because it misses the "20-min. mark" by a minute or less.

At the very LEAST "Learning to Live", "Lines in the Sand", "Trial of Tears", "Beyond This Life", "Home", "The Glass Prison", "The Great Debate", "In the Name of God", "In the Presence of Enemies (at LEAST part two!)", "The Count of Tuscany", "A Nightmare to Remember", "The Shattered Fortress", "Breaking All Illusions", and some others that I've probably left out should ALL be considered epics.

All of the songs that I've named are over ELEVEN minutes long, and I think it is INSANE to say that a song of that length is too SHORT to be considered an epic!

There are other songs that I've mentioned before that are more than 8 or 9 minutes long, but at the very least I think this is a good COMPROMISE!

Confering to this eleven minute mark, 4 out of 7 songs from ToT can be considered as epics. This would be a pretty crazy quote, wouldn`t it?

TDS, ES, HTF, and ITNOG are all epics. I don't really count SOC because it's a different beast.
None All of those are epics.

I agree.  :biggrin:
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: Kotowboy on February 10, 2015, 08:28:20 AM
How is In The Name of God *NOT* an Epic ?!
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: hefdaddy42 on February 10, 2015, 09:52:57 AM
How is In The Name of God *NOT* an Epic ?!
Cause it's not.  It's just a long song.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: bosk1 on February 10, 2015, 10:37:43 AM
With a dip in the middle?
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: hefdaddy42 on February 10, 2015, 10:39:01 AM
With a dip in the middle?
When I dip, you dip.

WE dip.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: The Letter M on February 10, 2015, 11:50:43 AM
With a dip in the middle?
When I dip, you dip.

WE dip.

...in the name of god?

-Marc.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: hefdaddy42 on February 10, 2015, 11:51:37 AM
Whatever it takes.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: King Postwhore on February 10, 2015, 01:12:44 PM
You say Tomato, and I say Tomato........
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: wizard of Thought on February 10, 2015, 02:19:53 PM
How is In The Name of God *NOT* an Epic ?!
Cause it's not.  It's just a long song.

Wait a second. What did you just say?  :omg:
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: hefdaddy42 on February 10, 2015, 02:24:17 PM
How is In The Name of God *NOT* an Epic ?!
Cause it's not.  It's just a long song.

Wait a second. What did you just say?  :omg:
:\

I said

It's just a long song.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: Rodni Demental on February 10, 2015, 04:48:05 PM
It might not be an epic per se, but it surely fills that roll in the context of closing the album. In the; 'more epic than a typical song' finale sense that seems to be a recurring style for how DT tend to end (pretty much) all their albums. You know, like Trial of Tears? Apart from being different stylistically, it's structurally similar.

Wait is Trial of Tears not an epic? Okay fine... Well it serves that role too even if it isn't one. :P
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: Kotowboy on February 10, 2015, 06:04:40 PM
Only on a prog forum could we be discussing whether a fourteen minute song is an epic or not :lol
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: fischermasamune on February 10, 2015, 07:01:58 PM
With only 14 minutes ITNOG is a miniepic.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: The Presence of Frenemies on February 10, 2015, 09:47:02 PM
Only on a prog forum could we be discussing whether a fourteen minute song is an epic or not :lol
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: hefdaddy42 on February 11, 2015, 07:08:44 AM
It might not be an epic per se, but it surely fills that roll in the context of closing the album. In the; 'more epic than a typical song' finale sense that seems to be a recurring style for how DT tend to end (pretty much) all their albums. You know, like Trial of Tears? Apart from being different stylistically, it's structurally similar.

Wait is Trial of Tears not an epic? Okay fine... Well it serves that role too even if it isn't one. :P
I agree that it's function on the album is equivalent to that of Trial of Tears.  But I don't classify either one as an "epic."
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: The Presence of Frenemies on February 11, 2015, 02:18:34 PM
It might not be an epic per se, but it surely fills that roll in the context of closing the album. In the; 'more epic than a typical song' finale sense that seems to be a recurring style for how DT tend to end (pretty much) all their albums. You know, like Trial of Tears? Apart from being different stylistically, it's structurally similar.

Wait is Trial of Tears not an epic? Okay fine... Well it serves that role too even if it isn't one. :P
I agree that it's function on the album is equivalent to that of Trial of Tears.  But I don't classify either one as an "epic."

What in your opinion keeps these songs from reaching "epic" status?
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: Kotowboy on February 11, 2015, 02:20:27 PM
It might not be an epic per se, but it surely fills that roll in the context of closing the album. In the; 'more epic than a typical song' finale sense that seems to be a recurring style for how DT tend to end (pretty much) all their albums. You know, like Trial of Tears? Apart from being different stylistically, it's structurally similar.

Wait is Trial of Tears not an epic? Okay fine... Well it serves that role too even if it isn't one. :P
I agree that it's function on the album is equivalent to that of Trial of Tears.  But I don't classify either one as an "epic."

What in your opinion keeps these songs from reaching "epic" status?

6 minutes apparently.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: erwinrafael on February 11, 2015, 03:44:02 PM
It might not be an epic per se, but it surely fills that roll in the context of closing the album. In the; 'more epic than a typical song' finale sense that seems to be a recurring style for how DT tend to end (pretty much) all their albums. You know, like Trial of Tears? Apart from being different stylistically, it's structurally similar.

Wait is Trial of Tears not an epic? Okay fine... Well it serves that role too even if it isn't one. :P
I agree that it's function on the album is equivalent to that of Trial of Tears.  But I don't classify either one as an "epic."

What in your opinion keeps these songs from reaching "epic" status?

6 minutes apparently.

I think hef means that ACOS sort of set the standard. I agree with him. Back then, I thought Metropolis is an epic, then ACOS  came out and made me think "ooohhh, this is different." And it's not just the length, it just seems more ambitious in its goals. Not necessarily the best songs, but I would say the most ambitious.  Right now I only treat four songs as epic because of the ACOS standard.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: The Presence of Frenemies on February 11, 2015, 03:58:38 PM
It might not be an epic per se, but it surely fills that roll in the context of closing the album. In the; 'more epic than a typical song' finale sense that seems to be a recurring style for how DT tend to end (pretty much) all their albums. You know, like Trial of Tears? Apart from being different stylistically, it's structurally similar.

Wait is Trial of Tears not an epic? Okay fine... Well it serves that role too even if it isn't one. :P
I agree that it's function on the album is equivalent to that of Trial of Tears.  But I don't classify either one as an "epic."

What in your opinion keeps these songs from reaching "epic" status?

6 minutes apparently.

I think hef means that ACOS sort of set the standard. I agree with him. Back then, I thought Metropolis is an epic, then ACOS  came out and made me think "ooohhh, this is different." And it's not just the length, it just seems more ambitious in its goals. Not necessarily the best songs, but I would say the most ambitious.  Right now I only treat four songs as epic because of the ACOS standard.

Those are undoubtedly more epic than the others, but the difference between ACOS and ITNOG (just for example) is nowhere near as big as that between ITNOG and a truly "regular" song like, say, Forsaken.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: hefdaddy42 on February 12, 2015, 06:50:57 AM
It might not be an epic per se, but it surely fills that roll in the context of closing the album. In the; 'more epic than a typical song' finale sense that seems to be a recurring style for how DT tend to end (pretty much) all their albums. You know, like Trial of Tears? Apart from being different stylistically, it's structurally similar.

Wait is Trial of Tears not an epic? Okay fine... Well it serves that role too even if it isn't one. :P
I agree that it's function on the album is equivalent to that of Trial of Tears.  But I don't classify either one as an "epic."

What in your opinion keeps these songs from reaching "epic" status?

6 minutes apparently.

I think hef means that ACOS sort of set the standard. I agree with him. Back then, I thought Metropolis is an epic, then ACOS  came out and made me think "ooohhh, this is different." And it's not just the length, it just seems more ambitious in its goals. Not necessarily the best songs, but I would say the most ambitious.  Right now I only treat four songs as epic because of the ACOS standard.
Pretty much.  Opinions might vary for newer fans, I suppose, but I go back to 1992.  They had all these great songs that were longer than normal, but then there was ACOS, which was in a class by itself.  Nothing that came before matched it, in either length or ambition.  So that was the epic.

Then there was Six Degrees, and then Octavarium.

Then came ITPOE, which certainly matched those others in length, but it doesn't really feel the same to me.  It just feels like a long song.  But I'm OK with people calling it an epic, because it does have the length.

I would fit TCOT into the same category as ITPOE.  It's a long song, and if people want to call it an epic, fine.

Along came Illumination Theory, which to me feels like the older epics.  So, for me, I have four epics, and two others that are on the edge (maybe/maybe not).
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: bosk1 on February 12, 2015, 08:42:46 AM
1992 fan as well.  And I have pretty much always considered most of the longer DT songs (pretty much anything pushing the 10 minute mark or above) to be epics.  But along the lines of what Hef said, yes, there are certainly elements that set the longer, mega-epics apart. 
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: Jaq on February 13, 2015, 11:19:04 AM
Oh the epic discussion.

Back in the day, my definition of epic as it seems to be in the prog community was "anything that takes up an entire vinyl side" Which of course started requiring adjustments practically immediately since Supper's Ready by Genesis isn't the only song on the old vinyl. Nevertheless, the epic to me, growing up, was the side long song in the main. And given how many old vinyl albums were released with sub-15 minute long songs, I don't have any problem with someone calling a 14 minute long song an epic. Honestly the prog community seems to thing an epic is "plus 20 minutes, has roman numerals in the titles of each part, special exemption granted to Close to the Edge unless you're really stringent in your definitions." 14 minutes is eight minutes shy of the average sitcom without commercials. That's pretty damn epic.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: Dublagent66 on February 13, 2015, 03:17:44 PM
How is In The Name of God *NOT* an Epic ?!
Cause it's not.  It's just a long song.

Funny, I was thinking the same thing about IT.....with a dip in the middle.  :lol
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: bosk1 on February 13, 2015, 03:25:22 PM
I already made that joke.  https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=42921.msg1921384#msg1921384
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: Dublagent66 on February 14, 2015, 03:49:40 PM
I already made that joke.  https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=42921.msg1921384#msg1921384

Yeah, I reused your material in reference to another less epic song that also reuses material.  It was perfect.  Thank you.   :lol
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: Mosh on February 14, 2015, 07:28:44 PM
I think your definition of Epic really depends on your musical background prior to finding Dream Theater. I'm used to bands like Iron Maiden and Metallica where anything that crosses the 8 minute barrier is an epic. You'll find Maiden fans who consider even 7 minute songs to be epics. So with Dream Theater, while that 8 minute rule is a bit more loose due to the nature of their songs (I don't consider OTBOA and Endless Sacrifice epics, for example), I'm a bit more liberal about what DT songs count as "epics" to me than a lot of people on here. If I came from a background of prog rock where an epic was any song that took up a side of vinyl, I'd probably see it differently.
Title: Re: "Saved by the EPIC?"
Post by: The Presence of Frenemies on February 15, 2015, 12:11:49 AM
For me, the primary criterion when it comes to whether something is an epic or not is the arrangement, not the length. Length doesn't really cut it. Say you have two songs, both with two 16-bar verses, three 16-bar choruses, a 16-bar intro, 16-bar solo, and 8-bar outro. That's 120 measures. But say one song is at 6/8 time at 150 BPM and the other in 4/4 at 70. The one would be just 2:24 and the other would be 6:51, but there's no difference in the actual scope of the song, the same way that if ACOS was written at a 25% faster BPM, it would be just as epic (though likely less epic in the superlative sense of the term).

So, for me, what defines whether a song is an epic or not is whether it adds to the typical arrangement of a song. A typical song has 2-3 verses and 2-4 choruses, along with an optional bridge, intro, outro, small instrumental break (typically before verse 2) and larger instrumental break (often consisting of or including a guitar or keyboard solo, sometimes even both). A song that has all of these--3 verses, 4 choruses, a bridge, an intro of some substance, an outro, a solo, a riff break after the solo, and a verse break, would be about the longest non-epic song you could get (especially if at a slow BPM, at which point you might be pushing ten minutes). Once a song starts tacking on other things--the extra-long instrumental break, two or three solo breaks, a full-on overture up front, multiple styles of verses and choruses, bridges that morph into entire movements, etc. etc. it's an epic. How epic it is varies--ACOS is obviously further along this continuum than Endless Sacrifice is. Note also that The Killing Hand, with its eight verses and umpteen instrumental breaks, is decidedly more epic than, say, Outcry, whose single stretch of the traditional song format is the extended instrumental section. A song like, say, TROAE is basically the dividing line for me. Most of the song is obviously very standard structurally, but there's the extended bridge with the tempo change, a unison break that leads to a tradeoff solo, a fairly long intro, an outro that introduces a new theme, and even the chorus has an interesting arrangement, kind of split into two halves. Could go either way on it. But anything over the TROAE line is "an epic" for me, though how easily each song earns that distinction obviously varies. Clearly the 20+ minute songs tend to be an extra order of magnitude above the rest, but it's equally erroneous to put ANTR into the same "just a song" category as Burning My Soul as it is to put Take The Time into the same "epic" category as ACOS.