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Dream Theater => Dream Theater => Topic started by: chaossystem on November 24, 2014, 02:44:40 PM
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Again, I think I know which track wins here.
But this time I would probably predict that my first choice will come in second, or at least third.
Happy voting!
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Illumination Theory, easy.
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Behind The Veil by Lightyears.
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Illumination Theory, easy.
This. There are some great songs on here, though (like the run of TBP/BTV/STR), but IT takes the cake.
-Marc.
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Illumination Theory, easy.
Yep. Head and shoulders above the rest for me.
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Illumination Theory, easy.
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Illumination Theory, first time I actually voted for the epic. I do also have a soft spot for Along for the Ride and The Bigger Picture. The whole album is nicely consistent though so makes sense to pick IT as it stands out a bit more above the rest.
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Illumination Theory. Such a fantastic epic. The best DT song in years. Behind the Veil is also a great contender. Strong album overall.
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I went for IT as well, but only because it offers 20 minutes of music. Pound for pound, this whole album is filled with awesomeness.
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I went with Surrender to Reason. IMO, Illumination Theory is the worst of the five DT epics and is extremely overrated. Surrender to Reason on the other hand is an amazing song that's only real flaw is that it isn't long enough. This album isn't one of my favorites but STR is a standout track on an otherwise bland album.
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Illumination Theory, closely followed by Surrender To Reason. STR is insanely good songwriting but IT does more for me musically. The Bigger Picture would probably come 3rd.
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I actually went with FAS. It's the only song that I still think about and love, and it wins by process of elimination.
Hearing IT recently, it's so disjointed and noodly, and a shadow of their former epics. However, the orchestral section is still eargasmic.
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Illumination Theory
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Behind The Veil by Lightyears.
This. BtV was a top 5 DT song when I compiled my list a few months back.
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I actually went with FAS. It's the only song that I still think about and love, and it wins by process of elimination.
Hearing IT recently, it's so disjointed and noodly, and a shadow of their former epics. However, the orchestral section is still eargasmic.
That's exactly my issue with IT. It feels like they forced themselves to write an epic to make up for the shorter songs. Certain parts sound like they were just added to make the song longer and the song doesn't flow well. Not helping is that it will forever be compared to ACoS, SDoIT, and 8VM (it matches up a little more closely with ItPoE). Compared to the rest of the epics and even TCoT, it falls flat. It's still a good song, but I don't feel the sense of satisfsction I get from listening to the other epics and TCoT. IT just couldn't live up to it's potential.
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I actually went with FAS. It's the only song that I still think about and love, and it wins by process of elimination.
Hearing IT recently, it's so disjointed and noodly, and a shadow of their former epics. However, the orchestral section is still eargasmic.
That's exactly my issue with IT. It feels like they forced themselves to write an epic to make up for the shorter songs. Certain parts sound like they were just added to make the song longer and the song doesn't flow well. Not helping is that it will forever be compared to ACoS, SDoIT, and 8VM (it matches up a little more closely with ItPoE). Compared to the rest of the epics and even TCoT, it falls flat. It's still a good song, but I don't feel the sense of satisfsction I get from listening to the other epics and TCoT. IT just couldn't live up to it's potential.
Eh. I'm sure they wrote an epic because they wanted to write another epic. Assuming that they had some kind of ulterior motive for it is really just asinine. They seemed plenty confident in this album on release, so I don't see why they thought that the shorter songs were so weak they figured that an epic would make up for that.
Even as great as IT is, I don't really think it "makes up" for the shorter songs, because the other tracks are really fine enough on their own. There's a few in there that I'd consider a future DT classic (namely BTV and TBP).
Regarding IT itself, I never and probably will never subscribe to the idea that its not flowing well is a detriment to its overall quality. ACOS has plenty of abrupt transitions yet never gets flogged for that. Hell, the same could be said for SDOIT. I agree, it's matched up against epics like ACOS and 8V, so naturally it'd have a lot to live up to, but I think it easily beats SDOIT at the very least, which isn't nearly as consistent overall. It's the most gratifying song I've heard DT put out in a long time.
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Eh. I'm sure they wrote an epic because they wanted to write another epic. Assuming that they had some kind of ulterior motive for it is really just asinine. They seemed plenty confident in this album on release, so I don't see why they thought that the shorter songs were so weak they figured that an epic would make up for that.
Even as great as IT is, I don't really think it "makes up" for the shorter songs, because the other tracks are really fine enough on their own. There's a few in there that I'd consider a future DT classic (namely BTV and TBP).
Regarding IT itself, I never and probably will never subscribe to the idea that its not flowing well is a detriment to its overall quality. ACOS has plenty of abrupt transitions yet never gets flogged for that. Hell, the same could be said for SDOIT. I agree, it's matched up against epics like ACOS and 8V, so naturally it'd have a lot to live up to, but I think it easily beats SDOIT at the very least, which isn't nearly as consistent overall. It's the most gratifying song I've heard DT put out in a long time.
I actually rank ACOS very low exactly because it feels like a lot of unrelated sections tacked together with abrupt transitions. It doesn't feel like a unified whole to me.
SDOIT has a few sudden transitions, but overall it's still miles better than IT imo (and ACOS), because the whole thing feels purposeful and musical, and not flashy and prog for the sake of it, which is how I feel about IT. I think of it as DT's melodic epic.
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I would say The Enemy Inside. It's the best aged song for me.
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Looking Glass
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Illumination Theory. The BTFW video sealed the deal. Surrender To Reason is a close 2nd.
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The Looking Glass. It's a Rush tribute for sure, but i like the vibe, the solo section with the drums and bass, and Mangini's drumming is mindblowing and i believe the best representation of his playing. I really like this song.
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Illumination Theory. The BTFW video sealed the deal. Surrender To Reason is a close 2nd.
Yep, the BtFW version of IT is one of the best live performances I have heard of any song on record. Normally, I would go out of my way to explain to others that IT is not disjointed and actually is very purposeful and has a very cohesive narrrative, but since the same persons keep on slamming the song, there's no point. Their mind is made up. It's like trying to explain a poem to a student but the student refuses to acknowledge that there is an interpretation to the poem that makes sense. :p
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The Looking Glass for me although Illumination Theory is a close second and I think it's their best "epic" since ACOS.
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TBP and BTV were my initial favorites, but TLG has climbed up and is my favorite now. If only the rest of the album was as good as these three and AFTR...
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I actually rank ACOS very low exactly because it feels like a lot of unrelated sections tacked together with abrupt transitions. It doesn't feel like a unified whole to me.
SDOIT has a few sudden transitions, but overall it's still miles better than IT imo (and ACOS), because the whole thing feels purposeful and musical, and not flashy and prog for the sake of it, which is how I feel about IT. I think of it as DT's melodic epic.
Really? The only jarring transition in ACOS is Seize the Day->The Darkest of Winters, and that one makes sense when considering the subject matter of that part.
I would rank many sections of Six Degrees fairly high, though the piece as a whole is rather low. Though I do agree that it flows fairly well.
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Illumination Theory for sure.
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Illumination Theory for sure.
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Illumination Theory. The BTFW video sealed the deal. Surrender To Reason is a close 2nd.
Yep, the BtFW version of IT is one of the best live performances I have heard of any song on record. Normally, I would go out of my way to explain to others that IT is not disjointed and actually is very purposeful and has a very cohesive narrrative, but since the same persons keep on slamming the song, there's no point. Their mind is made up. It's like trying to explain a poem to a student but the student refuses to acknowledge that there is an interpretation to the poem that makes sense. :p
You pretty much already have gone out of your way. No one is arguing whether the narrative is cohesive or not, or that it doesn't have a purpose. I's a very nice story and I'm sure that's why a lot of people like it. Personally, I couldn't give two shits about poetry. As I've said many times before, I'm a fan of music. The message in the lyrics is an extremely distant 2nd because words can be interpreted too many different ways.
Music is more universal. You either like it or you don't. When I say IT is disjointed, I'm talking about the music and the way it's arranged and executed. No matter how purposeful or cohesive the message is, I still won't like the song. If your interpretation of the song makes sense, then fine. That doesn't mean someone else's interpretation doesn't make sense. Seems to me that your mind is made up that differing opinions are inferior to yours. Hence your comment about trying to explain something to a student.
Just because someone has a different opinion, doesn't mean they can't understand yours. ;)
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I just don't understand how anyone can call IT disjointed, but not Metropolis or ACOS. I mean, maybe IT does have somewhat of a disjointed structure but so do the other songs and if anything, I'd say that only serves to their favor. It's what makes these kinds of songs adventurous and interesting. It's as true for Metropolis and ACOS as it is for IT, or TMOLS, or UAGM, or A Nightmare to Remember, or TCOT, or The Killing Hand.
Heck, if people can listen to SDOIT and consider the entire thing "one song", then I don't see the problem with IT.
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I just don't understand how anyone can call IT disjointed, but not Metropolis or ACOS. . . . Heck, if people can listen to SDOIT and consider the entire thing "one song", then I don't see the problem with IT.
Because IT grinds to a complete stop and completely changes musical genres/styles TWICE. Not that that is a "bad" thing. But it makes for a structure that many would definitely consider disjointed--even those like myself who are long-time fans of the band and are used to the types of "turn-on-a-dime" transitions in songs like Metropolis or ACOS. What they did in IT is something new and different. And whether people like it or not, it definitely qualifies as "disjointed" for a lot of people.
And I have no idea how SDOIT even fits this discussion. Despite the musical differences between the separate movements, the transitions between the different movements are actually logical and flow pretty well.
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Because IT grinds to a complete stop and completely changes musical genres/styles TWICE.
Plus both TCOT and ITPOE do the same thing. It's a redundant move. To me, the orchestral section is so out of place and completely ruins the song.
Now some people have had the same issue with TCOT, which I have always understood, though for me, it seems to work well.
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You know, if I actually felt like it was too disjointed, what I would do is take the track, chop it up into what I would consider cohesive pieces, and listen to them as separate songs. With IT it would be so incredibly easy to separate the orchestral section from the first half, or the second half, or heck, get rid of it all together if desired, that I don't see why it's so hard to enjoy those other parts for all their amazing moments just because you don't like one part of the song.
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I don't think anyone said they couldn't enjoy those other parts, so I am not sure what you are addressing.
I know for me, for example, I like all the separate parts. But the song still feels too disjointed, and I don't feel it works well. I get why each part is there, and how it functions as part of the whole, and I think it was a pretty ingenious bit of songwriting...but it still doesn't completely work for me. I don't dislike it. But that disjointedness takes it down a notch to where it is probably a middle-of-the-pack song for me instead of one of my favorites, despite having some of my favorite moments on the entire album. But music effects us all differently. Nothing wrong with that. I think the song is, by definition, "disjointed." But that doesn't necessarily make it "bad."
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Hearing IT recently, it's so disjointed and noodly, and a shadow of their former epics. However, the orchestral section is still eargasmic.
This, exactly. The orchestral section is still powerful enough to move me to tears, but this song has not stood up well for me.
How I wish that the orchestral section was used in an epic more along the lines of an Octavarium. Something that feels more like a journey than IT. Songs like Octavarium just have an overall charm and feel that I do not get from IT at all, and the orchestral section would work so well in a song with such charm.
As for my favorite song on DT12, I have to go with Surrender To Reason. It used to be BTV, but STR has held up better for me. Not far behind after those would be TEI and TBP.
AFTR is a solid song, and would land right in the middle of my favorites on this album.
The rest of the album is far below-average for DT, in my opinion.
EM and FAS are my 2 least favorite DT instrumentals, and are probably in my top 20 least favorite DT songs. TLG would also be a top 20 least favorite DT song.
Overall, I like this album far less now than I did when it came out. As a general album, it is really good. But as a DT album, it's average to me.
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I don't think anyone said they couldn't enjoy those other parts, so I am not sure what you are addressing.
I don't even know.
Either way, to me, the parts and how good they are is far more important than how well they transition from one to the other. I mean, I can listen to IT as two separate pieces of music, and enjoy them immensely. It just so happens that they're stuck together, so when I do enjoy them, I enjoy them consecutively. But heck, that's also what I do with The Mirror and Lie, and O1928+Strange Deja-Vu, and a few others. It's the moments that are important to me, and there isn't a bad one in IT.
Whereas taking something like ACOS, no matter how well the parts fit together (which isn't even THAT well), if some parts of it aren't that great, then that's what's going to bring it down for me, not the transitions.
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Either way, to me, the parts and how good they are is far more important than how well they transition from one to the other. I mean, I can listen to IT as two separate pieces of music, and enjoy them immensely. It just so happens that they're stuck together, so when I do enjoy them, I enjoy them consecutively. But heck, that's also what I do with The Mirror and Lie, and O1928+Strange Deja-Vu, and a few others. It's the moments that are important to me, and there isn't a bad one in IT.
Agreed 100%. I understand why people think IT isn't cohesive because even to my ears it really isn't, but I'm hard-pressed to find many more flaws with this song beyond that.
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I'm in the camp that say it's about as 'incohesive' as any other examples like Metropolis, A Change of Seasons, Six Degrees. I would argue that all of these are as disjointed as each other, and the way they 'flow' for the listener, depends on their tastes, experience, and conception of the song. Metropolis is generally said to flow quite well considering it could appear like a progged up mess of a song to any first time listener. I think for a lot of us, the song had to grow on us with familiarity before we could appreciate some of the transitions that were otherwise jarring. I guess what I'm saying is, the more I listen to Illumination Theory, the more cohesive it feels. If you know how it's going to transition and you're not filtering that experience through a negative preconception about the transition, it'll start to flow better from familiarity because you know that's how it goes. Unless you can never get your head around it, and then it comes down to taste so at that point, it doesn't matter if it's not appropriate for your pallet. Prog can always be jarring, irregular time signatures ARE jarring and always have the potential to be incohesive if you're expecting a rhythm in standard time.
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I'm in the camp that say it's about as 'incohesive' as any other examples like Metropolis, A Change of Seasons, Six Degrees. I would argue that all of these are as disjointed as each other, and the way they 'flow' for the listener, depends on their tastes, experience, and conception of the song. Metropolis is generally said to flow quite well considering it could appear like a progged up mess of a song to any first time listener. I think for a lot of us, the song had to grow on us with familiarity before we could appreciate some of the transitions that were otherwise jarring. I guess what I'm saying is, the more I listen to Illumination Theory, the more cohesive it feels. If you know how it's going to transition and you're not filtering that experience through a negative preconception about the transition, it'll start to flow better from familiarity because you know that's how it goes. Unless you can never get your head around it, and then it comes down to taste so at that point, it doesn't matter if it's not appropriate for your pallet. Prog can always be jarring, irregular time signatures ARE jarring and always have the potential to be incohesive if you're expecting a rhythm in standard time.
This is a great post. Despite my earlier post suggesting that Illumination Theory IS disjointed, I can appreciate this post nonetheless.
If you remove the orchestral part from IT, the rest of the song is honestly jointed pretty well. The entire song, other than the orchestra, has a pretty fast-paced and energetic feel, and all of those sections feel part of the same song.
The problem though, and the reason that I suggested it is disjointed, is solely the orchestral section. I feel like it would be better if the orchestral break introduced more of a change in the second half of the song. Instead, the second half of the song resumes with a very similar feel as the first half of the song. This makes it feel as if the orchestra is just plopped in out of nowhere, does its thing, and is forgotten about as we get more of the same stuff we heard at the beginning. I just wish it had more influence over the flow of where the song ends up going.
Supporting your post, you're right...Illumination Theory isn't anywhere NEAR the most disjointed sounding DT song. Let's look at your example of SDOIT. It's like 6 totally different songs in one song. A super mellow ballad part, 2 hard metal parts, a contemporary pop part, and so on. As you eluded to, it is far more disjointed than a song like IT.
I absolutely love songs such as SDOIT and A Change Of Seasons which, to me, are even MORE disjointed than IT.
What I'm trying to say is: I guess my problem with IT isn't simply that it is disjointed, but rather the manner in which the orchestral section is arranged within the rest of the song.
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The Enemy Inside gets my vote, I really didn't enjoy the album but this would be my favourite if I had to choose, To me the orchestral section takes out all the momentum of IT and goes on for a tad too long.
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You know, if I actually felt like it was too disjointed, what I would do is take the track, chop it up into what I would consider cohesive pieces, and listen to them as separate songs.
Are you serious?
I would never, ever do something like that. Wouldn't even pop into my head.
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Are you serious?
I would never, ever do something like that. Wouldn't even pop into my head.
Yeah, absolutely. If it feels smooth andlogical and not like it just cut from the middle of another piece of music (like the beginning of War Inside My Head for example).
But there really isn't any DT song that I actually found to be so disjointed that I felt the need to separate it into separate tracks, so I've never actually done that.
But there have been plenty of times when I'd omit certain parts that I didn't like, like editing out the samples in Space-Dye Vest, and turning it into an extremely condensed version where the vocals basically go back to back to back.
Same with omitting the sample section of Honor Thy Father.
The edits aren't perfect, and there are some very small tail ends of the samples that end up left where the "seams" would be, but if I'm not looking for them, I don't even hear them. It makes the songs more enjoyable for me, so I chop them up. I don't see the big deal.
(Although I did just spend some money on acquiring all of the stems to Space-Dye Vest, so I remixed them, and now I have the complete version without the annoying samples, so I don't have to listen to the condensed version anymore.)
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This poll is a bit harder than the others. Mainly because there are no truly good songs on this album. They are all just so mind-numbingly 'meh'. Went with 'The Bigger Picture' though, because the chorus is sort of nice I guess.
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Are you serious?
I would never, ever do something like that. Wouldn't even pop into my head.
Yeah, absolutely. If it feels smooth andlogical and not like it just cut from the middle of another piece of music (like the beginning of War Inside My Head for example).
But there really isn't any DT song that I actually found to be so disjointed that I felt the need to separate it into separate tracks, so I've never actually done that.
But there have been plenty of times when I'd omit certain parts that I didn't like, like editing out the samples in Space-Dye Vest, and turning it into an extremely condensed version where the vocals basically go back to back to back.
Same with omitting the sample section of Honor Thy Father.
The edits aren't perfect, and there are some very small tail ends of the samples that end up left where the "seams" would be, but if I'm not looking for them, I don't even hear them. It makes the songs more enjoyable for me, so I chop them up. I don't see the big deal.
(Although I did just spend some money on acquiring all of the stems to Space-Dye Vest, so I remixed them, and now I have the complete version without the annoying samples, so I don't have to listen to the condensed version anymore.)
....what the FUCK?!?!
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Problem? ;D
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The idea is just too bizarre for me to comprehend. It's like editing the piano out of SDV, it just makes no sense.
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I can see how someone would want the sample voices gone. I wouldn't do it myself, since I think they are a big part of the song's personality. But I understand if someone would prefer it without.
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The idea is just too bizarre for me to comprehend. It's like editing the piano out of SDV, it just makes no sense.
Except the piano is the main part, and actually sounds good. The samples only distracted me from that wonderful piano, and really brought the song down for me.
I mean, don't get me wrong, if there was a song where I felt like one of the instruments, (or, say, MP's backup vocals for example) hindered the song, I'd edit them out too, if possible. Sadly the BC&SL stems melded the lead vocals and backup vocals onto a single track, so I can't separate them and get rid of MP's parts in AROP or TCOT. :(
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This concept is just so appalling to me.
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This concept is just so appalling to me.
Well, I'm not forcing you to listen to it. With the samples, SDV wouldn't even break my top 50. If they had released it without the samples, it would be in my top 25. It's still not, since when considering what my top DT songs are, I consider them as they were released, as the artist intended. But for my own enjoyment, I think it was worth the money to remix it without the samples.
There's also a very nice, quiet little organ tone where the latter half of the samples is, which I turned up a little to make it more audible under the piano. Much more enjoyable!
I also remixed Home the same way, without the sex and casino noises. Not that I mind those AS much. I usually just listen to SFAM in its entirety, and I do prefer to experience it as a narrative. But now, if I want to listen to Home just on its own, it'll be much more enjoyable for me to hear the music without the samples.
There's also very subtle piano and synth stuff under the chorus that I couldn't really hear that well at all in the original, so I turned that up as well.
But anyway, the point is, if I felt like IT was so incohesive, it would be extremely easy for me to divide it into two separate parts and just treat them like separate songs. Heck, I might do that anyway, just in case I ever feel like enjoying the latter half of it on its own, although I do find the entire thing, from the beginning to end extremely enjoyable.
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*aghast*
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I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not. Surely this isn't the first time you've ever heard of someone doing this.
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I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not. Surely this isn't the first time you've ever heard of someone doing this.
I'm not being sarcastic. But I also don't want a debate about it.
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Anyway, my point is that I'd much prefer a whole bunch of disjointed musical moments put together into one piece, than have a piece of music that's more cohesive, but one which constantly has subpar and uninteresting moments thrown at you throughout, like TBOT or TCOT, for example. And if the disjointedness of something really bothered me that much, I'd just fragment it into separate tracks and not let it ruin the fact that these musical moments are amazing.
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It's an extremely strong and consistent album but my vote goes to Illumination Theory. And my thoughts on the above comments about its 'disjointedness' - disjointed means a lack of structural coherence, it doesn't simply mean jarring contrasts. If it did then pretty much every piano sonata of Beethoven or symphony of Mahler could be called 'disjointed', since they too often go from blaring aggression to barely audible 'pianissimo' in the space of 2 bars.
Whether or not you feel the music lacks structural logic is entirely up to you and largely subjective but I do feel one or two in this thread about being a bit too confident in labelling it this way. I catch a very strong 'classical' feel from this song - its similarity to the opening of Tchaikovsky's 1st Piano Concerto was noted on release - and almost all Classical and Romantic compositions have a rough fast-slow-fast structure; allegro-adagio-presto (as, in fact, does Tchaikovsky's Concerto).
Also - although musically the switch from fast to soft in IT may be a bit abrupt, to me it's a nice reflection of the theme of the song's lyrics, a kind of burst of life in the beginning, then a period of calm reflection, leading to their (rather JP's) conception of joy and revelation. It's my favourite song in the DT canon, but for me the slow section in the Count of Tuscany is a much more accurate example of a musically and lyrically puzzling change of gear.
I dunno, for me the song works brilliantly. I respect it doesn't for others, but I wanted to present an argument FOR the unusual structure of the music.
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agree with you wholeheartedly, Dave.
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Disjointed? A bit, that middle section is a bit of a drag. But that's really isn't my problem with IT, or DT12 in general.
My personal problems with this album is that
- the drums sound awful and completely lack any personal and human tuch, like a machine
- the guitar sounds pretty bad, aiming for the 'cake' sound went terribly wrong
- some of JLB's parts sounds bad as it sounds like he is so far outside his comfort zone it's a bit embarrassing
- the guitar riffs sound uninspired
- many Rudess' parts lack so much creative imagination
- and the same goes for the vocal melodies themselves
- waaaaaay too much JP soloing, I think someone should remind him that this isn't his solo project
- the lyrics are even more embarrassing, seriously, their lyrics haven't ever, with maybe the exception of BC&SL, been this bad
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- the drums sound awful and completely lack any personal and human tuch, like a machine
I'd probably be willing to bend on that one. Mangini is a technical beast, without a doubt. But I'd still say there are a fair amount of moments that let him shine without him resorting to the typical technicality, like on much of IT. My hope for their next album is that he's become more comfortable with his position by that point and is ready to let loose a little bit.
- the guitar sounds pretty bad, aiming for the 'cake' sound went terribly wrong
Not sure what you're talking about here. I actually really dig JP's guitar tone on this album. Maybe I don't understand his whole "cake" metaphor, but it's definitely layered and pretty damn tasty.
- some of JLB's parts sounds bad as it sounds like he is so far outside his comfort zone it's a bit embarrassing
Care to give any examples of this? The only one that really comes to mind are his subdued "growl-ish" voice in BTV.
- the guitar riffs sound uninspired
Virtually ever riff in IT would like to have a word with you. Also, a fair bit of TEI and BTV.
- many Rudess' parts lack so much creative imagination
Looking back, this isn't an album where JR really shines. He has his moments, but those are spread pretty few and far between.
- and the same goes for the vocal melodies themselves
Disagreed. TBP is such a killer of a song for it's vocal melodies, especially in its chorus. In fact, a lot of the choruses on this entire thing are pretty top-notch, at least as far as vocal melodies go.
- waaaaaay too much JP soloing, I think someone should remind him that this isn't his solo project
:yeahright Don't really seem to notice much more JP soloing than there has been in any other DT album. Besides, I think a lot of his solos on here are some of the best he's brought to the DT catalog yet.
- the lyrics are even more embarrassing, seriously, their lyrics haven't ever, with maybe the exception of BC&SL, been this bad
Different tastes I suppose. None of the lyrics on this album ever really screeched at me like they have on SC or BC&SL.
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It's an extremely strong and consistent album but my vote goes to Illumination Theory. And my thoughts on the above comments about its 'disjointedness' - disjointed means a lack of structural coherence, it doesn't simply mean jarring contrasts. If it did then pretty much every piano sonata of Beethoven or symphony of Mahler could be called 'disjointed', since they too often go from blaring aggression to barely audible 'pianissimo' in the space of 2 bars.
Whether or not you feel the music lacks structural logic is entirely up to you and largely subjective but I do feel one or two in this thread about being a bit too confident in labelling it this way. I catch a very strong 'classical' feel from this song - its similarity to the opening of Tchaikovsky's 1st Piano Concerto was noted on release - and almost all Classical and Romantic compositions have a rough fast-slow-fast structure; allegro-adagio-presto (as, in fact, does Tchaikovsky's Concerto).
Also - although musically the switch from fast to soft in IT may be a bit abrupt, to me it's a nice reflection of the theme of the song's lyrics, a kind of burst of life in the beginning, then a period of calm reflection, leading to their (rather JP's) conception of joy and revelation. It's my favourite song in the DT canon, but for me the slow section in the Count of Tuscany is a much more accurate example of a musically and lyrically puzzling change of gear.
I dunno, for me the song works brilliantly. I respect it doesn't for others, but I wanted to present an argument FOR the unusual structure of the music.
While I agree that jarring constrasts do not imply a lack of structural coherence by themselves, I'd assert that in DT's music the contrasts tend to be much more jarring than anything seen in classical music. Listen to Illumination Theory around the 6:00 mark for example. We go from a slow dramatic minor section with sweeping strings to an upbeat weedly-woodly major section with synthesizers and Rush guitars. I cannot think of a single classical piece (in the common practice period) in which in a split second the mood changes like this. Sure, we see plenty of sudden dynamic constrasts, but there is almost always a strong thematic overlap and the main transitions in structure are very well thought out and generally not sudden. Take Beethoven's late piano sonatas, where he often uses small transitional themes and fragments from earlier in the piece to make transitions and Mahler where snippets of themes from different movements reoccur throughout the symphony. DT is far less subtle. To compare Beethoven and Mahler's transitions to DT's is a bit of a disservice to the deceased gents I'd say.
I don't think your allegro-adagio-presto analogy is completely apt. In classical music, the allegro, adagio and presto are standalone pieces of music with a very clear internal structure. Also, themes from one section often reoccur other sections. In DTs music, IT for example, there is no clear structure, just a succession of themes. There is also very little shared thematic material between the sections. I think there is a reason why the classical composers stuck to using the classical forms like the sonata and the symphony for so long: it is very difficult to get a long piece to be structurally and thematically coherent, and I feel it's one of the main underrated skills of the late romantic and Viennese school composers. One of my main gripes with DT is that in many cases they simply seem to slap whole sections of music together without much thought. Alas, I think it is simply an artifact of their jam-oriented way of composing. It's cool that it works for you, but I don't think there's a strong case to be made for DT's music to be as structurally coherent as classical music.
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@ThatOneGuy, Too many different points to adress and I do not really have the energy to mess around with the (quote)-code-things. But I will try to adress the major points.
The thing about JLB not quite delivering on the vocals is referring to the second half of IT. The high pitched stuff he does there just feels so forced and unnatural. It doesn't at all sound as comfortable as when he did those things on the early albums. Which is of course obvious, since he is not a young man anymore, which is fine. I just wish they'd further work the vocals to fit his current and somewhat narrower vocal abilities.
And yes, there are some cool riffs in IT, but "a fair bit of TEI" I don't get at all. Most riffs in that song are some of the most boring stuff JP has produced.
And what you say about the TBP vocal melodies are true, those are the strongest of album, which is why TBP is also my favorite track on DT12. But even that song has some weak stuff as far as the vocal melodies are concerned
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This thing is rigged. I voted Enigma Machine, but it shows my vote as Enemy Inside
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This thing is rigged. I voted Enigma Machine, but it shows my vote as Enemy Inside
It is not possible to rig polls on this website.
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This thing is rigged. I voted Enigma Machine, but it shows my vote as Enemy Inside
Did you remember to READ CAREFULLY? :lol
"Enigma Machine" is the fourth track on the album, but on this poll, it's the fifth one listed. If you just voted for the fourth option, then you voted for "The Enemy Inside", because these tracks are listed alphabetically (which is only EVER done here in chaossystem's polls), and not in track-order of the actual, officially released album that is available to everyone around the world.
-Marc.
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This thing is rigged. I voted Enigma Machine, but it shows my vote as Enemy Inside
Did you remember to READ CAREFULLY? :lol
Why would he? The subject of the thread doesn't explicitly specify that we need to read carefully, so I would never even think of reading carefully if I wasn't specifically told to do so.
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- the lyrics are even more embarrassing, seriously, their lyrics haven't ever, with maybe the exception of BC&SL, been this bad
I somewhat agree with this.
The 2 songs which come to mind are TLG and IT.
Example: I may be the only one who feels this way, but I find this lyric incredibly cliche/cheesy:
"To really feel the joy in life, you must suffer through the pain."
Now, the concept behind this lyric is very true and I respect that. But the way its worded is SO bland and expected. Little things like that are what have turned me off to IT. I don't hate IT by any means, but it is pretty mediocre to me.
Overall, I have to agree with your sentiment about their lyrics not being this bad since BC&SL. I must add, though, that the lyrics on BC&SL were MUCH worse in my opinion. DT12 has some cringe-worthy lyrics from time to time, but songs like TBoT and TCoT had cringe-worthy lyrics almost throughout their entirety.
Also, I don't think DT12's lyrics are near as bad as they were on SC. The whole monster thing just came off as being really corny.
I agree though overall. IMO, DT12 is the 3rd worst DT album in terms of lyrical content, behind BC&SL and SC.
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I like SC's lyrics, except for The Dark Eternal Night of course. But I totally agree with BC&SL. TBoT and TCoT are just so disappointing to listen to.
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The only thing wrong with the lyrics on DTEN is that some of them are awkwardly phrased, such as, "The ultimate god of a rotting creation" line, but other than that, they're cool. The chorus is awesome. And parts of the verses (or the Pre-choruses if that's what they are) are awesome, the parts that follow the, "Through the stifling heat, underneath the pale green moon," pattern.
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I love the lyrics of TDEN, because they fit that particular song perfectly, and they don't take themselves seriously. It's just a fun song. I wouldn't want those lyrics to a song like Blind Faith, just as the lyrics to a song like Blind Faith wouldn't fit that song. I also like the way the musical phrasing fits the lyrics in the pre-chorus.
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The Dark Eternal Night is a fun song, absolutely. I still listen to it sometimes because of just that reason, which is more than I can say about TBoT or TCoT. But I'm still not a fan of those lyrics. Even though they might fit that particular song, I prefer more serious lyrical content in the music I listen to, at least from DT.
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I'm not a large fan of SC, but I will say that the lyrics almost perfectly fit the music, maybe more so than on any album since Awake.
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IT is too big and too great of a song not to pick. It's almost akin to the Octavarium poll (Except the rest of the songs are better than the rest of 8VM's, in my opinion).
The Enemy Inside has aged the best though.
EDIT: Judging from the current amount of votes for Enigma Machine (0), I guess it just doesn't measure up to the rest of the album xD
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illumination theory is epic, but i really like the bigger picture, it has a meaningful message that is relevant to any creative person, and when i took a good listen at the bridge after the solo, that's when the song truly clicked for me
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Judging from the current amount of votes for Enigma Machine (0), I guess it just doesn't measure up to the rest of the album xD
It's a shame too because the instrumental was highly anticipated after not seeing one for 10 years (SoC - ToT).
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Judging from the current amount of votes for Enigma Machine (0), I guess it just doesn't measure up to the rest of the album xD
It's a shame too because the instrumental was highly anticipated after not seeing one for 10 years (SoC - ToT).
Yes, a shame. I think everyone (myself included) was expecting something along the lines of SoC or DoE. What we got was quite different. I don't dislike it, just not what I was hoping for.
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Judging from the current amount of votes for Enigma Machine (0), I guess it just doesn't measure up to the rest of the album xD
It's a shame too because the instrumental was highly anticipated after not seeing one for 10 years (SoC - ToT).
I'd say it's more like the rest of the album is so amazing, that even though it's their second best instrumental, it's still overshadowed by everything else.
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Judging from the current amount of votes for Enigma Machine (0), I guess it just doesn't measure up to the rest of the album xD
It's a shame too because the instrumental was highly anticipated after not seeing one for 10 years (SoC - ToT).
I'd say it's more like the rest of the album is so amazing, that even though it's their second best instrumental, it's still overshadowed by everything else.
The only way Enigma Machine is their second best instrumental is if they only had two instrumentals. :P
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The only way Enigma Machine is their second best instrumental is if they only had two instrumentals. :P
The Dance of Eternity and Enigma Machine... The only two that matter. :metal
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Enigma Machine is a very soulless and dull instrumental track.
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Enigma Machine is a very soulless and dull instrumental track.
I disagree. In fact, I'm not sure what so many people have against it.
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It's pretty much Raw Dog 2.0 for me.
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It's pretty much Raw Dog 2.0 for me.
I don't see that at all. It is much more cohesive and energetic than Raw Dog, which is just a Frankenstein's Monster of leftover crap.
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I don't see that at all. It is much more cohesive and energetic than Raw Dog, which is just a Frankenstein's Monster of leftover crap.
This.
And honestly, even with Raw Dog, while I don't really like it all that much, it's mostly because I don't think it consists of very good riffs and ideas, but there are still enough of them there that I can't in good conscience call it "dull".
And even more so with Enigma Machine. I can't fathom how someone can call it dull at all, let alone in comparison to songs like Hell's Kitchen or SOC which I'd say wander a lot closer to the realm of "dull". And even then, not even.
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I think both Hell's Kitchen and SoC are excellent instrumental tracks. Miles and miles above Enigma Machine and Raw Dog, which both seemed so as-fast-as-possible and without-any-heart produced. They're like the McDonald's cheeseburgers of DT's music.
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I think both Hell's Kitchen and SoC are excellent instrumental tracks. Miles and miles above Enigma Machine and Raw Dog, which both seemed so as-fast-as-possible and without-any-heart produced. They're like the McDonald's cheeseburgers of DT's music.
Enigma Machine focuses on technicality. What's wrong with that? Are you gonna say that The Dance of Eternity has no soul either?
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Enigma Machine focuses on technicality. What's wrong with that?
Well, it has to be done right. They can't just blame a failed track on technicality, I don't accept that.
Are you gonna say that The Dance of Eternity has no soul either?
The Dance of Eternity, while not at all my favorite instrumental track, shows infinitely more soul than Enigma Machine and Raw Dog. That is definetely a 'focus on technicality' instrumental done right.
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Well, it has to be done right. They can't just blame a failed track on technicality, I don't accept that.
And I don't accept that it's a failed track. Stop associating it with Raw Dog, lol. That's like me associating Metropolis with Light Fuse and Get Away.
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Well, it has to be done right. They can't just blame a failed track on technicality, I don't accept that.
And I don't accept that it's a failed track. Stop associating it with Raw Dog, lol. That's like me associating Metropolis with Light Fuse and Get Away.
And then someone comes in and asks "What's wrong with "Light Fuse And Get Away"? :lol
This could go on for WEEKS as everyone defends a song they like against someone who dislikes that song. Unless that song is "You Not Me".
-Marc.
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And then someone comes in and asks "What's wrong with "Light Fuse And Get Away"? :lol
This could go on for WEEKS as everyone defends a song they like against someone who dislikes that song. Unless that song is "You Not Me".
-Marc.
Eh. I know Enigma Machine is amazing. Screw the nay sayers. I got a ton of enjoyment out of it, they didn't. So who's happier in the end? :hat
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Stop associating it with Raw Dog, lol. That's like me associating Metropolis with Light Fuse and Get Away.
Well, I'm not really making the connection because they sound alike, it's more because they are both tracks I don't enjoy and they are both instrumentals.
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Well, I'm not really making the connection because they sound alike, it's more because they are both tracks I don't enjoy and they are both instrumentals.
Well, same for Metropolis and Light Fuse. My point is that one is amazing, the other one is among DT's worst, so they shouldn't be lumped together, lol.
Why? You think Metropolis and Light Fuse sound alike?
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To be honest, I don't know LFaGA all that well. But if I remember correctly it ended up at the very bottom of all DT's tracks the last time I did my rankings. So in terms of quality of both sound and the music itself, no, Metropolis is obviously so far above it's not even comparable. But in terms of type or style of music, I suppose they aren't that different. Not more than Enigma Machina and Raw Dog.
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I think it's the same as saying, Metropolis has that flavor of "old DT" to it, that certain sound that early DT songs had before Awake. It certainly shares it although in a very refined way, and Raw Dog and Enigma Machine share the riffage style that JP has been doing lately, but yeah, either way, I wasn't referring to sound, I was comparing quality. So I may as well have compared Metropolis to You Not Me, as an analogy for comparing Enigma Machine to Raw Dog.
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Yeah, maybe I need to listen to Raw Dog again to get that comparison.
Nah, I'm not doing that.
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Enigma Machine is a very soulless and dull instrumental track.
So is your face.
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Oh, and what's wrong with Light Fuse And Get Away?
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Oh, and what's wrong with Light Fuse And Get Away?
I'm not sure that there is all that much wrong with it.
But there isn't that much right with it, either, IMHO.
But I would never compare it with Raw Dog.
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Well, Raw Dog ain't good, but it's at least better than LFaGA.
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Well, Raw Dog ain't good, but it's at least better than LFaGA.
Oh, I strongly disagree. It's not better than anything, other than maybe cancer.
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Light Fuse and Get Away is a great song. Probably second best from WDADU.
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Enigma Machine is a very soulless and dull instrumental track.
So is your face.
Is it bad that when I read that comment originally, I actually wanted to reply with, "Your face is a very soulless and dull instrumental track"?
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I'd say it's more like the rest of the album is so amazing, it's overshadowed by everything else.
This is pretty much how I feel too. I like the song a lot, it gets stuck in my head on a regular basis, but I like a few others on the album more.. namely IT.
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Light Fuse and Get Away is a great song. Probably second best from WDADU.
Probably...except according to chaossystem's definitive DTF Poll, LFAGA is the 6th best song based on DTF's votes! :tup
-Marc.
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Enigma Machine is a very soulless and dull instrumental track.
I completely agree, The slow bit is so incredibly forced, It's almost as if they wrote the song and added the slow bit in at the end of a random passage. I'd say the best part about it is the animation :P the best instrumental for me is TDOE or Erotomania
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Enigma Machine is a very soulless and dull instrumental track.
I completely agree, The slow bit is so incredibly forced, It's almost as if they wrote the song and added the slow bit in at the end of a random passage. I'd say the best part about it is the animation :P the best instrumental for me is TDOE or Erotomania
When watched (attended) EM live, with MM's solo inserted therein, my whole perception changed and it really clicked.
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Enigma Machine is a very soulless and dull instrumental track.
I disagree. In fact, I'm not sure what so many people have against it.
This. It was my favorite song off DT12 the first time I listened to the album (I had to rewind it and listen to it again instantly) and it still holds up well.
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Enigma Machine is a very soulless and dull instrumental track.
I completely agree, The slow bit is so incredibly forced, It's almost as if they wrote the song and added the slow bit in at the end of a random passage. I'd say the best part about it is the animation :P the best instrumental for me is TDOE or Erotomania
When watched (attended) EM live, with MM's solo inserted therein, my whole perception changed and it really clicked.
I enjoyed MM's solo, but the EM still didn't click with me. I think it's just that slow bit with the guitar solo, It really doesn't fit in at all.