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Dream Theater => Dream Theater => Topic started by: rumborak on November 23, 2014, 07:05:43 PM
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I can totally imagine them starting out with this, but then putting increasingly more "edge" under it.
I wish DT were more adventurous, and didn't relegate interesting musical influences to Facebook videos.
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I wouldn't write it off! JR uploaded a video a couple of years ago of him warming up with MM which sounded almost exactly like 12:20 of IT so maybe he'll want to expand on this one as well (fingers crossed because I agree it sounds great).
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I'm not really sure what you would call that style of music.
Kind of a "ragtime-jazz fusion?"
How would you write lyrics and a vocal melody for something like that?
Or would you want it to be a purely instrumental piece?
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You want them to do more elevator music? :tdwn
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Yeah, I don't see how this type of music would work with DT. It's a pretty generic and bland improv imo.
I wouldn't write it off! JR uploaded a video a couple of years ago of him warming up with MM which sounded almost exactly like 12:20 of IT
Do you have a link? I'm curious.
You want them to do more elevator music? :tdwn
80s sitcom music was the first thing that came to mind, but elevator music is pretty close as well.
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I keep hoping JR will someday understand that you can play something awesome with just a few notes but he disappoints me every time....
And I really don't think DT will ever go this way.
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Ah, another thread accusing DT of not being "adventurous" or "interesting" because they do perfectly conform to a specific fan's personal tastes. The presumptuousness and rudeness of people never ceases to amaze me.
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And your holier-than-thou posts neither, bosk.
MM himself has said that DT has no interest in exploring new sounds ("If I wanted to listen to Kreator, I'd buy a Kreator album "), and JR has shown over the years that he draws influences from a lot of different styles, none of which ever survive into DT.
I guess my presumptuousness and rudeness keeps me from understanding how that, in any way of the definition of the word, can still be considered progressive.
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And your holier-than-thou posts neither, bosk.
MM himself has said that DT has no interest in exploring new sounds ("If I wanted to listen to Kreator, I'd buy a Kreator album "), and JR has shown over the years that he draws influences from a lot of different styles, none of which ever survive into DT.
I guess my presumptuousness and rudeness keeps me from understanding how that, in any way of the definition of the word, can still be considered progressive.
Because you are using "progressive" as being experimental, when there is also another use of the term "progressive" in describing musical styles that are high on technicality and complexity, which manifest in the structures, the transitions, and the unusual time signatures of the songs.
I also want them to explore different styles more. But they have been doing that. The structure of IT is something different for them. The instrumental of STR is something they have not done before. In DT12, they also tried a new approach of trimming out the fat from the songs but still trying to retain their signature sound (which, JP said, is actually harder for them to write than to just write longer songs). I think they would try new sounds more in their next album, now that they have established some sort of signature sound for the new MM era with DT12.
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And your holier-than-thou posts neither, bosk.
MM himself has said that DT has no interest in exploring new sounds ("If I wanted to listen to Kreator, I'd buy a Kreator album "), and JR has shown over the years that he draws influences from a lot of different styles, none of which ever survive into DT.
I guess my presumptuousness and rudeness keeps me from understanding how that, in any way of the definition of the word, can still be considered progressive.
Because you are using "progressive" as being experimental, when there is also another use of the term "progressive" in describing musical styles that are high on technicality and complexity, which manifest in the structures, the transitions, and the unusual time signatures of the songs.
That's how I always described Progressive too. The problem with the term progressive is if you're referring to it as being experimental, then it can't possibly define a genre, because every experimental album is going to sound completely different, and it would be impossible to say, "I like progressive metal" because by that definition every band that's ever pioneered a genre would be considered Progressive Metal/Rock. And obviouslt that's not how we label bands like Metallica, Alice in Chains, Black Sabbath or Korn.
Nothing to do with this particular conversation, as I do wish DT had dabbled a little more in jazz fusion type stuff, not too much, but enough to at least have a sense of fun and adventure in their music the way LTE did, or even FII.
But I'm not going to blame JR or JP for lack of that. It is what it is. DT still makes amazing music that throws curve balls and takes you on all kinds of wondrous musical journeys, and that's all I ever wanted from them.
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Of course real "progressive" music advocates for stronger labor laws, the creation of an 8 hour work day and overtime wages, and toppling monopolies. The kind of thing Theodore Roosevelt would listen to. So, we all have our own definitions.
But seriously, I agree with erwinrafael's definition.
I keep hoping JR will someday understand that you can play something awesome with just a few notes but he disappoints me every time....
When left to his own devices, maybe. I have been quite impressed with what he does in DT. The easter egg on DT12 is the perfect example of him playing just the right amount of notes and he does that throughout DT's songs. Maybe that is because he has JP reining him in.
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I keep hoping JR will someday understand that you can play something awesome with just a few notes but he disappoints me every time....
When left to his own devices, maybe. I have been quite impressed with what he does in DT. The easter egg on DT12 is the perfect example of him playing just the right amount of notes and he does that throughout DT's songs. Maybe that is because he has JP reining him in.
He does have more self control when in DT but I still think he overplays a lot. I really enjoyed some of the more atmospheric vibe he created in "Breaking all Illusions" and I wish he would do that more often.
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I am all for DT experimenting with different styles and genres as they hone their song writing abilities and then incorporating into the DT "sound". I prolly wouldn't be interested in a flamenco or sitar album from JP but he incorporates these styles into DT songs. Same as Neil Peart exploring African rhythms into the Rush sound. Maybe that is what Rumby was saying. Or maybe he was incorporating rudeness into his post writing skills ;D....Happy Thanksgiving.
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I keep hoping JR will someday understand that you can play something awesome with just a few notes but he disappoints me every time....
When left to his own devices, maybe. I have been quite impressed with what he does in DT. The easter egg on DT12 is the perfect example of him playing just the right amount of notes and he does that throughout DT's songs. Maybe that is because he has JP reining him in.
He does have more self control when in DT but I still think he overplays a lot. I really enjoyed some of the more atmospheric vibe he created in "Breaking all Illusions" and I wish he would do that more often.
In the most recent album, what song did he overplay in? Isn't he restrained in False Awakening Suite? The Looking Glass? The Bigger Picture? Behind The Veil? Surrender to Reason? Along for the Ride?
I don't think he overplayed in The Enemy inside, either. In Illumination Theory, he's playing to what the song is calling for. And in Enigma Machine, that's like an exercise in showcasing crazy skills, so it fits the theme of the song. So if you could be more specific, where is the "A LOT" in DT12 where he overplays?
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I think DT overall overplays sometimes (Enigma Machine being a great example of this) but if you put it into context then JR is probably just following along with the rest of the band. And it's all a matter of tastes. You mention The Enemy Inside and to me the instrumental section before JPs solo is overplaying but then again, that's just me.
And I do believe DT12 has been a step in the direction I prefer
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Well, it also depends on your definition of overplaying. I understand what you mean about Enigma Machine, but is it really too much? It does exactly what it's supposed to do, and it's one of DT's best and most distinguishing features.
If they did that on EVERY song, yes, it would be too much. But does that mean they shouldn't do it on ANY song? I'd say absolutely not.
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His answer is yes. It's overplaying. That is his definition.
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But overplaying sounds like they should be toning it down for those songs. But that's what those songs are for. Is Enigma Machine just too much? No, it's exactly what it should be. Like I said, it doesn't mean I want every DT song to be like that, but there is definitely place for at least a couple on every album.
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While I may not agree with him, most musicians say, they leave the meaning of the lyrics or the music to the listener and interpret to what fits them.
This is also the same interpretation in using the same patch and tones. It's up to the individual to interpret.
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While I may not agree with him, most musicians say, they leave the meaning of the lyrics or the music to the listener and interpret to what fits them.
This is also the same interpretation in using the same patch and tones. It's up to the individual to interpret.
Yeah, but I mean, if a piece is written a certain way, and someone thinks they're playing too many notes or whatever, of course it may not fit their tastes and that's fine. But it's not like this type of playing is something new to DT. They've always played crazy passages like that. If that's the side of DT some people don't like that's fine, but for some of us, that's precisely the reason that attracted us to them.
Again, I'm not saying that they should go crazy like that in every single song, but it's like erwinrafael said, if he kept himself relatively restrained on the majority of the album, and goes a little crazy on one or two songs, then I think they're in no position to say that JR doesn't know how to play something with only a few notes. He does, and he has on every single album, at one point or another.
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"Overplaying" for me is like JR in the end of The Mirror in BtFW. Or MP doing those numerous drum fills in a supposedly serene instrumental of Wither.
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If they would try to incorporate some new sounds, I hope they do some Hans Zimmer type sound along the lines of Mombasa.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0r0aDfW2UM
:metal
The Inception soundtrack actually helped me produce two academic papers. :lol
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@TheGreatPretender: I know DT has always done crazy instrumental stuff and that is part of their DNA but their crazy instrumental stuff in I&W wasn't as crazy as it has been lately. SFAM is by far my favorite album, it has ton of crazy instrumentals and most of them I actually think are perfect. Only The Dance of Eternity strikes me as way too much for me but I still enjoy it in context.
But going back to the point I made before and what King said, this is how I perceive the music and a personal opinion on what I prefer.
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So it's not your cup of tea. That's fine. But for a lot of people, myself included, it's stuff like TDOE, and the instrumental sections of songs like TMOLS, Endless Sacrifice, etc. that got me into the band in the first place. So saying, "It's too much, they shouldn't do stuff like that," is a little unfair. There are a lot of DT fans that live for stuff like that, and if DT wants to write it, and go crazy with some parts every once in a while, there's absolutely no reason why they should restrain themselves.
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So it's not your cup of tea. That's fine. But for a lot of people, myself included, it's stuff like TDOE, and the instrumental sections of songs like TMOLS, Endless Sacrifice, etc. that got me into the band in the first place. So saying, "It's too much, they shouldn't do stuff like that," is a little unfair. There are a lot of DT fans that live for stuff like that, and if DT wants to write it, and go crazy with some parts every once in a while, there's absolutely no reason why they should restrain themselves.
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So it's not your cup of tea. That's fine. But for a lot of people, myself included, it's stuff like TDOE, and the instrumental sections of songs like TMOLS, Endless Sacrifice, etc. that got me into the band in the first place. So saying, "It's too much, they shouldn't do stuff like that," is a little unfair. There are a lot of DT fans that live for stuff like that, and if DT wants to write it, and go crazy with some parts every once in a while, there's absolutely no reason why they should restrain themselves.
Couldn't agree more. Eg. One of the things that appealed to me from the beginning was JRs impressive 'over the top' playing. Although I personally wouldn't call it that, just an external description from my point of view, I'd say it's very skilled and disciplined application of technique and I love it when he plays 'a million notes a second', almost causes my brain to overheat and explode. :lol
I was watching a '93 vid of a change of seasons last night, and about 3 quarters of the way through Kev Moor busted out the craziest JR style solo I've ever seen him do! And it made me consider, DT really has always had these elements. And I hope we see more crazy seaboard solos like we did on Enigma Machine and Illumination Theory and for JR to keep doing whatevs he feels like. :metal
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And like I said, for every one of those, we still do get some more subdued, less overwhelming stuff from him anyway. So it's not like people who prefer slower piano stuff don't get their share of it on pretty much every album that I could think of, aside from MAYBE ToT, and even then, it depends on just how subdued they like it.
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Ah, another thread accusing DT of not being "adventurous" or "interesting" because they do perfectly conform to a specific fan's personal tastes. The presumptuousness and rudeness of people never ceases to amaze me.
That's not being rude in any way.
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So it's not your cup of tea. That's fine. But for a lot of people, myself included, it's stuff like TDOE, and the instrumental sections of songs like TMOLS, Endless Sacrifice, etc. that got me into the band in the first place. So saying, "It's too much, they shouldn't do stuff like that," is a little unfair. There are a lot of DT fans that live for stuff like that, and if DT wants to write it, and go crazy with some parts every once in a while, there's absolutely no reason why they should restrain themselves.
I'm not saying "they shouldn't do it", I'm saying "I'd love it if they tone down the technicality". As I said since my first post, this is 100% a matter of tastes and everyone has different ones :smiley:
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I'm not saying "they shouldn't do it", I'm saying "I'd love it if they tone down the technicality". As I said since my first post, this is 100% a matter of tastes and everyone has different ones :smiley:
But there are song where they do tone it down. So you can enjoy those.
Personally, while I love JR's technicality and I do love it when he plays a million notes a second, the issue I have is his choice of instruments. I mean, even when he goes crazy fast, it sounds so much better when he's doing it with piano tones instead of the typical synth tones that he uses. I definitely think that the piano itself is very underused in DT, especially considering how integral the keyboard is to DT's sound. Whenever they do use piano, songs like One Last Time, OTBOA, Forsaken, etc., as soon as it comes on, it's damn godly. :hefdaddy
And hey, maybe the fact that they don't do it too often just makes it more special, but I'd still like to hear more of it.
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TGP, I totally agree, and it's been my biggest beef with JR's playing. I'm pretty sure his solos would come across a lot better if he chose a cleaner, straighter, tone. His lead sounds are totally overladen with effects and just way too rich for the lines he's playing.
A more subtle approach to the pitch wheel/ribbon would probably also do wonders. I always thought that that's an area KM's playing really excelled at. Like, take the Continuum. The only time I really enjoyed JR's use of it was for the intro in Octavarium. Ever since, it's been "slide into note from bottom ... slide into note from bottom ... SWIPE WILDLY! SWIPE WILDLY!"
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Derek too for that matter. His organs sounded amazing.
Don't get me wrong, I do enjoy JR's crazy solos in songs like Constant Motion and even AROP. But the have their places in those types of songs. When it comes to something like, even The Enemy Inside, I really like his solo, but imagining it being played with a grand piano tone, I think it'd be so much better. But again, that's an issue of his sound choices, not hom "overplaying".
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I've said before that I'd love to hear DT explore a more stripped back style for an album.
JP with a clean, rhythm and lead tone - nothing else.
JM - a nice gritty slightly overdriven tone - nothing else
JR - a piano, hammond, rhodes, maybe one synthy leady type sawtooth sound - nothing else
MM - I wouldn't strip back his kit at all since I totally get how he justifies it by using everything - but maybe it could be recorded in a more organic acoustic way
JLB - write his vocal lines so he can do more in one take rather than singing line by line
I'm not saying this is something they should do now and forever more. I'd just be interested to see what they could come up with in those stripped back parameters. I for one, would set a high wager on it rocking!
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I've said before that I'd love to hear DT explore a more stripped back style for an album.
JP with a clean, rhythm and lead tone - nothing else.
JM - a nice gritty slightly overdriven tone - nothing else
JR - a piano, hammond, rhodes, maybe one synthy leady type sawtooth sound - nothing else
MM - I wouldn't strip back his kit at all since I totally get how he justifies it by using everything - but maybe it could be recorded in a more organic acoustic way
JLB - write his vocal lines so he can do more in one take rather than singing line by line
I'm not saying this is something they should do now and forever more. I'd just be interested to see what they could come up with in those stripped back parameters. I for one, would set a high wager on it rocking!
I like all of that, except the JP clean tone. I don't think he should ever get rid of distortion for an entire album, but the stuff he's been playing lately I think is a little too chunky. Which is good for what it is, but I'd love to hear a tone that more resembles stuff like Raise The Knife or About To Crash Reprise. And I think that kind of a tone would fit pretty well with what you listed.
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Nooooo.....
I mean JP has 1 clean tone, 1 rhythm tone and 1 lead tone to use for an album. Just those three sounds in that old school sort of way. No way did I mean he should use nothing but a clean tone for an album........unless they were doing an album of Garth Brooks songs. Hey, why not?
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Ah, another thread accusing DT of not being "adventurous" or "interesting" because they do perfectly conform to a specific fan's personal tastes. The presumptuousness and rudeness of people never ceases to amaze me.
That's not being rude in any way.
Yeah I'm scratching my head at this one too.
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Thinking of "overplaying"...
I guess it's just like the baroque elements in art. I mean... you can create a work of art that is very essential and elegant - or you can create something complex that boasts a lot of decorative elements. Liking this or that has a lot to do with personal taste and artistic background. And obviously on the outcome of the work itself, or I'd better say: on how we perceive that outcome. I usually hear people say: this is good - this is bad, in a very strict way. The fact that you think it is, doesn't make it true for the rest of the world.
Based on my background and taste, I can sense or perceive something that you don't feel or would underestimate. Something that can kindle my perception of that piece of music, as when we say that something "clicks with us".
Jordan is a gifted artist, and as any smart person would do, he tries to make the best with his skills (that are impressive to say the least). Sometimes he plays 10000000 notes per second, sometimes he plays slow and with feel. I don't feel that any of this two ways of playing are not expressed to the best in DT music, as much as I don't feel that they don't fit DT's style, which is sooo eclectic and varied.
I was a little worried that long - crazy instrumental were overused by the band (for my personal taste), but this was before DT12 came out. I feel the album has a great, strong balance between all aspects of DT's music. There is only one thing that I think it lacks: experimentation (but I would like to point out that - as some of you have said in previous posts - I do believe that "progressive metal" defines a genre with specific features that doesn't necessarily need to be always experimental).
But experimentation is not for all albums. I think they've played it - quite - safe with these two albums, and I see why they did so, as one was the first of MM's era, and the latter was the self titled. But now I feel it's time to move on and dare a little more; I have high expectations on the next album from an experimental point of view. And I think Jordan might (and has to) play a lead role in this, for his abilities and for his astounding proficiency in latest music technologies.
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See, I don't expect much real experimentation. Other than Six Degrees, they've never really done much experimentation on an album. They do what they do, and they do it better than virtually anyone else who does what they do, but they don't do much else.
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Honestly, considering that people praise their early albums so much for being so "experimental" I think a lot of that was outside influence. I mean, yes, we know that they were specifically told by the label that FII should just be crammed with "potential singles" and were forced into a more radio friendly direction, which was what gave it its distinct sound. But just because it was so harsh and forceful for that particular album doesn't mean that wasn't the case for their other albums too.
While they had relative freedom on Awake, there was still some pressure for them to make singles, as well as a general push to go in a heavier direction. The only difference between that and FII is that with Awake, they didn't end up getting half of their songs flat out rejected.
Everything that came before, WDADU and I&W, that wasn't "experimentation" that was just the band developing and discovering their style, and their style is incredibly unique, even 30 years later.
I think the kind of experimentation and the things that were so unique and different about Awake and FII were a fluke, a result of outside tampering that really, the band never wanted in the first place.
As for SDOIT, the only reason I think THAT comes off as so experimental was because it was the first album that they created compeltely from scratch with Rudess, and it was his style that really poured through on it.
That's just how it comes off to me, honestly. The only instance where they CONSIDERED being truly experimental for the sheer sake of being experimental was before SDOIT when they were planning to make that album where different songs were about different cultures, and would stylistically have influences of those cultures in them. But that idea got scrapped, for better or for worse.
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As for SDOIT, the only reason I think THAT comes off as so experimental was because it was the first album that they created compeltely from scratch with Rudess, and it was his style that really poured through on it.
No, they were more experimental with recording techniques and songwriting/structures. It's not just because of Rudess, he was just there when they did it.
And their original idea for that album was even MORE experimental, with all of the "world music" influences they were intending to bring to bear.
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Yeah, but I think they've always tried different structural things. I mean, sure, there are certain unusual song structures that are specifically consistent within DT in particular, but I mean, if we're talking purely about song structures then it has been said before that the structure of Illumination Theory is something they've never really done before. Like it or not, it is something different for them. But I mean, there are still only so many ways they can rearrange the "heavy section, wanky section, verse, chorus, acoustic section," etc. before they run out of combinations.
When talking about experimental, I usually think of the stylistic influences of their sound, rather than their structure or recording techniques.
What were the experimental recording techniques of SDOIT that you speak of though?
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Didn't JP play one of his solos backward? I can't remember what song that was.
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Didn't JP play one of his solos backward? I can't remember what song that was.
Misunderstood?
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Didn't JP play one of his solos backward? I can't remember what song that was.
Misunderstood?
No I think he got it right. He did play it backwards.
:neverusethis:
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Didn't JP play one of his solos backward? I can't remember what song that was.
Misunderstood?
Oh yeah, he wrote the solo, then reversed it, learned how to play it backwards, then played it backwards and reversed it again, so it was the way it was written, but played backwards.