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Dream Theater => Dream Theater => Topic started by: MiracleSleeper on October 06, 2014, 12:03:14 PM
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Was looking to read up on everyone's thoughts regarding all of DT's epics. Anyone have a link to a good thread?
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May as well start one here!
Quick question, which are considered the epics?
Obviously there are:
Octavarium
Six Degrees Of Inner Turbulence
In The Presence Of Enemies
A Change Of Seasons
Illumination Theory
But could any of these also be considered epics?...
The Count Of Tuscany
In The Name Of God
Metropolis
The Ministry Of Lost Souls
Breaking All Illusions
Trial Of Tears
Learning To Live
Finally Free
I'm assuming not, but I'm curious to know if any of the above could be considered an epic.
Thanks!
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I always considered "The Count of Tuscany" to be one of DT's traditional epics. I mean, it has the structure and it's a minute shy of 20 minutes long. The others you listed I've always just considered as being some of DT's "longer" songs, or "mini-epics".
And since it looks like we're starting a discussion here, I may as well rank 'em!
1- Octavarium / Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
2- A Change of Seasons
3- The Count of Tuscany
4- In The Presence of Enemies
5- Illumination Theory
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1- Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
2- Illumination Theory
3- A Change of Seasons
4- In The Presence of Enemies
5- Octavarium
6- The Count of Tuscany
Although there are moments in the bottom four that equal or even exceed moments in the first two.
Oh, and after the release of Breaking The Fourth Wall, I'd rank Breaking All Illusions just below ACoS if we're considering it an epic.
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1. Octavarium. Untouchable IMO.
2. Six Degrees.
3. Illumination Theory
4. The Count Of Tuscany
5. In The Presence Of Enemies ( part 2 really lets it down IMO )
6. A Change Of Seasons. ( like a mish mash of leftovers shoved together in one song with no regards to arrangement ).
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1-A change of seasons
2-Six degrees
3-Illumination Theory
4-Octavarium
5- The count odf tuscany
I'm not sure about "In the presence" being an epic, though.
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Only on a Dream Theater forum would we be discussing whether a 19 minute song is an "epic" :P :P
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Only on a Dream Theater forum would we be discussing whether a 19 minute song is an "epic" :P :P
:lol So true.
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Its honestly amazing how everyone seems to think that Illumination Theory's runtime of 19:15 justifies it being considered an "epic", but The Count of Tuscany is 19:16 and somehow not an epic.
And In The Presence of Enemies is over 25 minutes long, making it longer than both ACOS and Octavarium. Why would anyone not consider ITPOE an epic? Because it's split into two parts?
6DOIT is split up into like, what, 8 different tracks? But that's viewed around here as an epic.
So is it really just based on personal preference? Or the general opinion on this forum of what is a good song or bad song?
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Only on a Dream Theater forum would we be discussing whether a 19 minute song is an "epic" :P :P
:lol So true.
lol :lol
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6DOIT is split up into like, what, 8 different tracks? But that's viewed around here as an epic.
I really like to think SDOIT as an album in an album, it doesn't work for me if I think that it's one song.
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6DOIT is split up into like, what, 8 different tracks? But that's viewed around here as an epic.
I really like to think SDOIT as an album in an album, it doesn't work for me if I think that it's one song.
"An album in an album" doesn't make any sense.
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And In The Presence of Enemies is over 25 minutes long, making it longer than both ACOS and Octavarium. Why would anyone not consider ITPOE an epic? Because it's split into two parts?
6DOIT is split up into like, what, 8 different tracks? But that's viewed around here as an epic.
The thing with ITPOE is that the album order fucks up my perception of the thing as a whole.
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I don't consider The Count of Tuscany to be one of their epics. To me, a Dream Theater epic is a multi part song over 20 minutes in length. By that standard, the band has five epics: A Change of Seasons, Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence, Octavarium, In the Presence of Enemies, and Illumination Theory. The Count of Tuscany is just a very long (and amazing) song. Here's how I would rank their epics.
1- Octavarium
2- A Change of Seasons
3- Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
4- In the Presence of Enemies
5- Illumination Theory
If I were to consider TCoT an epic, it would be in between 8VM and ACoS. These songs are actually my top 3 DT songs.
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To me, a Dream Theater epic is a multi part song over 20 minutes in length.
Illumination Theory is only over 20 minutes long because of the easter egg :P ;D I get what you mean though. I guess everyone has their own definition of what makes an epic, but here's my list:
1. Octavarium
2. Illumination Theory
3. In the Presence of Enemies
4. A Change of Seasons
5. The Count of Tuscany
6. 6 Degrees of Inner Turbulence
Octavarium is my clear favourite. The next 4 are very closely matched and all in my DT top 10. 6 Degrees lags way behind, though I still sometimes struggle to see it as one song - perhaps that's why I don't enjoy it as much as a lot of people.
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Octavarium
In the Presence of Enemies
Illumination Theory
A Change of Seasons
Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
Octavarium is untouchable (easily a Top 3 DT song), the others are all fairly spaced out in terms of preference(ITPOE is in the teens, IT in the 20s, ACOS in the 40s, and SDOIT... well, I have not ranked songs beyond the top 50).
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I don't consider The Count of Tuscany to be one of their epics. To me, a Dream Theater epic is a multi part song over 20 minutes in length. By that standard, the band has five epics: A Change of Seasons, Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence, Octavarium, In the Presence of Enemies, and Illumination Theory. The Count of Tuscany is just a very long (and amazing) song. Here's how I would rank their epics.
1- Octavarium
2- A Change of Seasons
3- Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
4- In the Presence of Enemies
5- Illumination Theory
If I were to consider TCoT an epic, it would be in between 8VM and ACoS. These songs are actually my top 3 DT songs.
:facepalm: :censored
IT is even shorter than TCOS!
I digress. If the band had taped 30 seconds of dead silence and an unrelated easter egg epilogue at the end of TCOT, I guess it would be an epic too.
Isnt that kind of like saying that The Need for Repetition by BTBAM is a 14 minute "mini-epic", even though the song is about 45% music, 40% dead silence, and 15% hidden easter egg track?
The thing with ITPOE is that the album order fucks up my perception of the thing as a whole.
Listen to Part 1 and Part 2 back to back. Or, better yet, splice the two tracks together. You will hear that it is indeed one fluid song, it even fits together with a smooth transition. It is even performed that way live.
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I don't consider The Count of Tuscany to be one of their epics. To me, a Dream Theater epic is a multi part song over 20 minutes in length. By that standard, the band has five epics: A Change of Seasons, Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence, Octavarium, In the Presence of Enemies, and Illumination Theory. The Count of Tuscany is just a very long (and amazing) song. Here's how I would rank their epics.
1- Octavarium
2- A Change of Seasons
3- Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
4- In the Presence of Enemies
5- Illumination Theory
If I were to consider TCoT an epic, it would be in between 8VM and ACoS. These songs are actually my top 3 DT songs.
:facepalm: :censored
IT is even shorter than TCOS!
I digress. If the band had taped 30 seconds of dead silence and an unrelated easter egg epilogue at the end of TCOT, I guess it would be an epic too.
Isnt that kind of like saying that The Need for Repetition by BTBAM is a 14 minute "mini-epic", even though the song is about 45% music, 40% dead silence, and 20% hidden easter egg track?
The thing with ITPOE is that the album order fucks up my perception of the thing as a whole.
Listen to Part 1 and Part 2 back to back. Or, better yet, splice the two tracks together. You will hear that it is indeed one fluid song, it even fits together with a smooth transition. It is even performed that way live.
That's why I consider an DT epic based on it's structure and length, not either of the two exclusively. Which means I consider both IT and TCOT to be epics. TCOT may just be shy of 20 minutes (same with IT if you don't consider the easter egg to be part of it), and it may not have distinctly labelled lyrical sections, but it still has a similar structure to most of their epics. I could name 4 parts to it right now. The first part is the entire instrumental intro. Part two is when it gets more riff-based and begins the verse-chorus section. Part three is the ambient and soft section. Part four begins with the guitar chords and vocals with the main theme and is the last part.
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Why don't we just call 'em "pretty long songs" and save a bunch of time debating semantics.
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6DOIT is split up into like, what, 8 different tracks? But that's viewed around here as an epic.
I really like to think SDOIT as an album in an album, it doesn't work for me if I think that it's one song.
"An album in an album" doesn't make any sense.
Might not be the best description, but it kinda makes sense. Because of the suite like structure of Six Degrees the song, it can feel like a mini album (and in fact, is a similar length if not longer than some albums out there).
Anyway, I also consider The Count of Tuscany an epic, if anyone can describe how it isn't without dismissing the obvious considerations then I'll change my mind on the definition. :lol
The whole description for these things is too ambiguous though. Because anything that's written in parts and sections, is the first step in creating a 'multi layered' structure that is expected in these epics. Even The Killing Hand which has gone unmentioned should be recognised for this, at the very least it was a precursor for what was to come. And if we can't agree on what the epics are, we certainly won't agree on whatever a mini-epic would be. :|
A Mind Beside Itself is not far from an epic itself, but because it's better known as three songs, I guess it doesn't count. I do wonder if it was intended during the writing process that there'd be some kind of thread that intentionally links them or if it just sorta happened.
And then there's just long songs like Breaking All Illusions, In The Name of God, Scarred. Probably Trial of Tears, even though it has parts. But I guess that doesn't automatically make it an epic, False Awakening has parts that are less than a minute long and that's not considered an epic by DT fan definitions. Even if it sounds 'epic' in and of itself.
Did someone mention Illumination Theory not being an epic? For all intents and purposes, I think that was always supposed to be written that way. It was even referred to as simply; "Epic" on the board during the "in studio" vids on youtube.
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Why don't we just call 'em "pretty long songs" and save a bunch of time debating semantics.
DTF would be nothing without debating semantics! :lol
My ranking would be-
Six Degrees Of Inner Turbulence (top 1/2 DT song depending on my mood)
Octavarium
In The Presence Of Enemies
Illumination Theory
A Change Of Seasons
Aside from the top 2, I wouldn't rank their mega epics all that highly. ITPOE is great aside from the instrumental section (it's not bad, but adds little). I liked IT at first, but listening to it on BTFW, I'm very much over that song. ACOS is consistently average, with no part of the song being truly great.
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How about Visions? Pretty epic track there.
Oh wait...that's Haken.
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Yeah, if you flip around Blob's list, then that's mine.
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I might as well change the thread title to "What Defines a DT Epic?" lol
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Isnt that kind of like saying that The Need for Repetition by BTBAM is a 14 minute "mini-epic", even though the song is about 45% music, 40% dead silence, and 20% hidden easter egg track?
Well, I would consider a song that is 105% pretty damn epic.
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:clap:
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1. Octavarium
2. A Change of Seasons
3. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulance
4. Illumination Theory
5. The Count of Tuscany
6. In the Presence of Enemies
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1. Octavarium
2. A Change of Seasons
3. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulance
4. Illumination Theory
5. The Count of Tuscany
6. In the Presence of Enemies
Your 6 is my 5 and your 2 is my 6.
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1. Octavarium
2. A Change of Seasons
3. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulance
4. Illumination Theory
5. The Count of Tuscany
6. In the Presence of Enemies
Poor ITPOE. I feel so bad for it. Why did you rank it so low? You definitely hurt its feelings.
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1. Octavarium
2. A Change of Seasons
3. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulance
4. Illumination Theory
5. The Count of Tuscany
6. In the Presence of Enemies
Poor ITPOE. I feel so bad for it. Why did you rank it so low? You definitely hurt its feelings.
awww....is the baby dark master gonna cry now? Come on baby dark master....cry for me.....CRYYYYYYY BABY DARK MASTER!!!! CRY!!!!!
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1. Octavarium
2. A Change of Seasons
3. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulance
4. Illumination Theory
5. The Count of Tuscany
6. In the Presence of Enemies
Poor ITPOE. I feel so bad for it. Why did you rank it so low? You definitely hurt its feelings.
awww....is the baby dark master gonna cry now? Come on baby dark master....cry for me.....CRYYYYYYY BABY DARK MASTER!!!! CRY!!!!!
:lol
Seriously though, is there a specific reason for your lack of love for ITPOE? Or does it just not really catch your interest?
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1. A Change of Seasons
2. Octavarium
3. Illumination Theory
4. The Count of Tuscany
5. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
6. In the Presence of Enemies
I enjoy them all though.
Your 6 is my 5 and your 2 is my 6.
That sounded strangely romantic.
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All I know is SDOIT is number 1.
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Lol math
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@MiracleSleeper
My complaints are the same as most....Part 1 is actually pretty cool, and part 2 is either forgettable or just plain silly. (The whole dark master section is just painful to get through) So based on that, and taking the entire piece as a whole, I just find it to be the weakest of all their epics by an extremely wide margin. All the others are so good that it's hard to rank them at all. With ITPOE, there is no question. It's just a mess.
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Tbh, maybe DT should have put all of SDOIT on one track, then there'd be no need for this debate. And it would force people to listen to the song as intended, as a single work, or face the inconvenience of having to fast-forward for long spells to reach a particular bit they like.
As for my favourite epic, it has to be A Change of Seasons! Seriously, that song is an absolute masterpiece! When I've finished listening to it, I forget that 23 real minutes have passed.
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@MiracleSleeper
My complaints are the same as most....Part 1 is actually pretty cool, and part 2 is either forgettable or just plain silly. (The whole dark master section is just painful to get through) So based on that, and taking the entire piece as a whole, I just find it to be the weakest of all their epics by an extremely wide margin. All the others are so good that it's hard to rank them at all. With ITPOE, there is no question. It's just a mess.
Now are you saying that Part 2 doesn't work musically, or lyrically?
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I would imagine he means both.
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6DOIT is split up into like, what, 8 different tracks? But that's viewed around here as an epic.
I really like to think SDOIT as an album in an album, it doesn't work for me if I think that it's one song.
"An album in an album" doesn't make any sense.
Well, it is a double album and the title track is long enough to be an album in and of itself, so I'm not quite sure how that doesn't make any sense. Even if he was just speaking figuratively.
1. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulance
2. A Change of Seasons
3. Octavarium
4. In The Presence of Enemies
5. The Count of Tuscany
6. Illumination Theory
Fixed
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1. Six Degrees Of Inner Turbulence
2. Illumination Theory
3. A Change Of Seasons
4. Octavarium
5. The Count Of Tuscany
6. In The Presence Of Enemies
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1. Octavarium
2. A Change Of Seasons
3. The Count Of Tuscany
4. In The Presence Of Enemies
5. Illumination Theory
6. Six Degrees Of Inner Turbulence
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1. A Change Of Seasons
2. Six Degrees Of Inner Turbulence
3. Octavarium
4. Illumination Theory
5. The Count Of Tuscany
6. In The Presence Of Enemies
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I thought Octavarium would never lose it's place at the top, but the new DVD shaked me up. Now it's like:
1-Illumination Theory
2-Octavarium
3-A Change of Seasons
4-6 Degrees of Inner Turbulence
5-The Count of Tuscany
6-In the Presence of Enemies
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1. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
2. Octavarium
3. A Change of Seasons
4. The Count of Tuscany
5. In the Presence of Enemies
I hate to admit it, but I don't even know Illumination Theory by title alone...I will have to listen to Track 9 a bit more me thinks. :smiley:
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I'd say...
1. Six Degrees Of Inner Turbulence
2. Illumination Theory
3. A Change Of Seasons
4. Octavarium
5. The Count Of Tuscany
6. In The Presence Of Enemies
Numbers 2,3, and 4 are interchangeable depending on my mood though.
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To me, a Dream Theater epic is a multi part song over 20 minutes in length.
Illumination Theory is only over 20 minutes long because of the easter egg :P ;D I get what you mean though.
TCoT is made longer by the nature sounds at the end. 8VM is made longer by TRoAE intro at the end. ItPoE is made longer by the wind in between parts 1 and 2. 6DoIT is made longer by the extended fadeout. The only one that isn't lengthened by "ambiance" is ACoS. To my ear, TCoT is structured more like a very long song. I'm not knocking the song because as I said, its my second favorite DT song only behind 8VM. The only point I'm trying to make is that every song being discussed in this thread besides ACoS is extended beyond it's regular music in some way
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Yeah but IT is made longer by a stretch of silence and then a bit that as far as I know isn't technically part of the song.
wait why are we even arguing about this
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I don't know, but IT isn't like those other examples, FWIW.
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Tbh, maybe DT should have put all of SDOIT on one track, then there'd be no need for this debate. And it would force people to listen to the song as intended, as a single work, or face the inconvenience of having to fast-forward for long spells to reach a particular bit they like.
I probably wouldn't listen to it that much at all if they had done that. I listen to the last four parts of it quite a bit, but the first four parts, not so much (although I did listen to War...and Test... a lot back when it first out).
Anyway, Illumination Theory has risen to top 3 for me, only bested by A Change of Seasons and Octavarium. ITPOE obviously sits at the bottom.
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1. A Change of Seasons
2. The Count of Tuscany
3. Octavarium (long intro kinda drags it down)
4. In The Presence of Enemies
5. Illumination Theory
I dont even consider SDoIT an epic. For what its worth, I dont consider Transatlantic's The Whirlwind an epic either. It's definitely just a "suite". Its the same situation with SDoIT.
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1. Octavarium - Easily a top 5 DT song for me. It has not gotten old, and likely never will.
2. A Change Of Seasons
3. SDoIT - Used to be my favorite, but it has not held up as well as the above 2
4. The Count Of Tuscany - Used to hate it, now I love it
5. ITPoE
6. Illumination Theory - Has one of the highest highs (orchestral section), but everything after the orchestral part is sub-par to me
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Anyone who saw TCOT live knows it's an epic!
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Anyone who saw TCOT live knows it's an epic!
The outro of that song was the most epic moment I've seen of DT live.
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I loved it as well
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Ahh, did somebody say epics? My favorite kind of prog! Hmmm, let's see...
1. Six Degrees Of Inner Turbulence
2. Octavarium
2. A Change Of Seasons
4. Illumination Theory
5. The Count Of Tuscany
5. In The Presence Of Enemies
8VM and ACOS are pretty tied, IMO, and they can swap spots every now and then depending on my mood. The album 8VM was their first new one after I became a fan, so it holds a special place in my heart, as does the title track. But the lyrical and musical subject matter of ACOS is also very near and dear to me, so it's got a lot of pull as well. DT's latest epic is pretty damn good, so it sits right under those, while their 9th and 10th album epics are tied below that.
-Marc.
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Sooo here's how it goes for me
===Eargasm / "Jesus christ these are the best songs ever and I will love them all the way to my grave" tier===
1. Octavarium (tears in my eyes. I cri every tiem)
2. Illumination Theory
3. A Change of Seasons
Honorable mentions: Learning to Live (awesome but not an epic), Metropolis Pt. I (same), Another Hand/The Killing Hand (same), A Change of Seasons 1989-1990 demo (seriously that shit's great)
===Awesome songs/always-fun-to-listen-to tier===
4. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
Honorable mentions: Breaking All Illusions (it's about as good as Learning to Live but at this very day I'm a little burned out, it may slip into the higher tier every now and then), Finally Free, Vacant followed by Stream of Consciousness (sounds about as "epic" as any epic DT song in terms of scale and emotional prowess)
===Great epics I rarely listen through tier===
5. In the Presence of Enemies (to listen to this song, I need the same mood I have when I play an adventure/RPG game or watch some adventurous show. It doesn't happen much).
6. The Count of Tuscany (it's pretty good, but I don't really feel it. Sometimes it's fun for the riffs. Happy Holidays 2013 made it much easier to embrace it, though)
Honorable mention: The Ministry of Lost Souls, Sacrificed Sons, and more psuedo-epic songs that require the right mood.
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Anyone who saw TCOT live knows it's an epic!
The outro of that song was the most epic moment I've seen of DT live.
Oh man I can only imagine! I hope they decide to play it live again sometime down the road.
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I'm surprised no one has mentioned "The Odyssey" and "The Divine Wings of Tragedy" in any of their lists...
...wait a second.
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I'm surprised no one has mentioned "The Odyssey" and "The Divine Wings of Tragedy" in any of their lists...
...wait a second.
Triiiiiiummmmphannnt, Champion of Ithaca :metal
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I'm surprised no one has mentioned "The Odyssey" and "The Divine Wings of Tragedy" in any of their lists...
...wait a second.
If this is a joke, I am not getting it.
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i'm checking on how can you hardly define "epic" music. we know it should be long but how do you consider a song as an epic song? how "mind beside itself" or "trial of tears" is categorized?
i was able to see the same thread back in 2011 :)
https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=24681.0
1. Six Degrees Of Inner Turbulence
2. A Change Of Seasons
3. The Count Of Tuscany
4. Octavarium
5. In The Presence Of Enemies
6. Illumination Theory
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The way i rank them:
Excellent, among their best songs:
1 - Octavarium
2 - A Change of Seasons
3 - Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
Good:
4 - In the Presence of Enemies
Meh:
5 - The Count of Tuscany
6 - Illumination Theory
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Actually, I have always counted A Mind Beside Itself as a single epic, and I just spaced it this time.
1. Octavarium
2. A Change of Seasons
3. Six Degrees
4. A Mind Beside Itself
5. Illumination Theory
6. The Count of Tuscany
7. In the Presence of Enemies
Really, those top 6 and incredibly hard to rank for me. Octavarium is easily #1, but the next 5 could all be traded with one another at any given moment. And Enemies is just really not good at all. (except some brief shining moments in the first part)
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The way i rank them:
Excellent, among their best songs:
1 - Octavarium
2 - A Change of Seasons
3 - Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
Good:
4 - In the Presence of Enemies
Meh:
5 - The Count of Tuscany
6 - Illumination Theory
Nice! Same as mine, except our #4 and #5 are switched.
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- I - Awesome EPICS ranking :xbones :
1 - A change of seasons
2 - A mind beside itself (Erotomania/Voices/The silent man - do I cheat ?? ;D)
3 - Six degrees of inner turbulence
4 - Illumination theory
5 - Octavarium
6 - In the presence of enemies. :metal
- II - Awesome FU :censored LONG songs :biggrin: :
1 - Trial of tears
2 - Scarred
3 - Learning to live
4 - Bridges in the sky
5 - Breaking all illusions
6 - In the name of god. :metal