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Dream Theater => Dream Theater => Topic started by: Sad Wings on September 27, 2014, 10:29:25 AM
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I seem to recall reading that, in an interview with Classic Rock Magazine, David Prater speculated that MP was kicked out of the band due to his controlling and obsessive compulsive behavior. I know "officially" MP chose to leave, but I wanted to see this interview. However I've searched Google and this forum and found nothing. Might anyone be able to post it or point out where I could read it? I looked at the DT book, but unless I can get it electronically I don't really want to purchase it again as I bought the box set back in 2007.
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I don't recall anything specific regarding that, but isn't surmising that MP got kicked out of DT because of his controlling and obsessive behavior a little bit in the "No shit sherlock" department? I'm sure even his mother-in-law said at some point "he's a nice guy, but he's gonna get kicked out of DT for his obsessive and controlling behavior".
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How can you be kicked out of a band you founded?
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How can you be kicked out of a band you founded?
I don't know. Ask Scott Weiland how he got kicked out of Stone Temple Pilots though the circumstances when he got kicked out are a lot more volatile there than MP's leaving DT.
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How can you be kicked out of a band you co-founded?
Fixed that for ya.
I suspect, legally speaking, once the band becomes a corporation from a financial standpoint, the other members could technically vote a co-founder out (although that isn't what happened here). Isn't that essentially what happened with Geoff Tate and Queensryche? I am sure bosk1 can explain this better than me.
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Steve Jobs got kicked out of Apple.
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How can you be kicked out of a band you founded?
I don't know. Ask Scott Weiland how he got kicked out of Stone Temple Pilots though the circumstances when he got kicked out are a lot more volatile there than MP's leaving DT.
That's an easy one. STP planned on doing a 20th anniversary of core and Scott took out a solo band and did it even though he knew STP was planning it and he was a part of it.
Besided, are you defending Scott since he single handedly killed STP 3 or 4 times?
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How can you be kicked out of a band you co-founded?
Fixed that for ya.
I suspect, legally speaking, once the band becomes a corporation from a financial standpoint, the other members could technically vote a co-founder out (although that isn't what happened here). Isn't that essentially what happened with Geoff Tate and Queensryche? I am sure bosk1 can explain this better than me.
We wasn't kicked out, anyways. He left the band.
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Oh David Prater. Hearing him and MP talk shit about each other is like watching a pissing match between two bulls.
I got the feeling we weren't getting the full story with MP but between the two, Prater was clearly more full of shit. There really is no way you can spin MP's departure as him being kicked out. He made a demand and said he would leave if it wasn't met. They made a demand and according to some sources practically begged him to reconsider (but knew they had to play hardball). He wouldn't give in so if anything, they sort of gave him permission to quit because they weren't going to budge.
Prater has had no contact with any of them since the mid 90s soooooo....what does he know anyway?
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While he wasn't tactful by any stretch of the imagination, I thought some of Prater's criticisms of MP from the 2007 version of the DT book were pretty spot-on. And I think he helped the band after reading the bits about Petrucci's solo in ACOS. So I'd be interested in seeing what he had to say.
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I think I remember in the Prog Magazine article about the breakup, Prater said he wasn't shocked by it and that the band probably got tired of MP controlling everything (his words, not mine)
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While he wasn't tactful by any stretch of the imagination, I thought some of Prater's criticisms of MP from the 2007 version of the DT book were pretty spot-on. And I think he helped the band after reading the bits about Petrucci's solo in ACOS. So I'd be interested in seeing what he had to say.
Without a doubt there are elements of truth in what both Prater and Portnoy have said about the situation and there was some bullshit as well. It is telling that the other guys didn't seem to have nearly as big of a problem with him as Portnoy did. It's also a bit telling that Prater very sloppily decide to troll this very message board to defend himself under a pseudonym. :lol
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How can you be kicked out of a band you founded?
I don't know. Ask Scott Weiland how he got kicked out of Stone Temple Pilots though the circumstances when he got kicked out are a lot more volatile there than MP's leaving DT.
That's an easy one. STP planned on doing a 20th anniversary of core and Scott took out a solo band and did it even though he knew STP was planning it and he was a part of it.
Besided, are you defending Scott since he single handedly killed STP 3 or 4 times?
Nay. I was just using him as an example of a guy that got kicked out of a band, even though he was part of founding it.
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While he wasn't tactful by any stretch of the imagination, I thought some of Prater's criticisms of MP from the 2007 version of the DT book were pretty spot-on. And I think he helped the band after reading the bits about Petrucci's solo in ACOS. So I'd be interested in seeing what he had to say.
Without a doubt there are elements of truth in what both Prater and Portnoy have said about the situation and there was some bullshit as well. It is telling that the other guys didn't seem to have nearly as big of a problem with him as Portnoy did. It's also a bit telling that Prater very sloppily decide to troll this very message board to defend himself under a pseudonym. :lol
Really? Interesting that he still has enough of an emotional investment in DT to do that. Did he produce any other notable bands?
This has probably been discussed more than once, but did JP or any of the other guys ever say anything about the possibility of hiring a producer after Portnoy left?
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I'm not surprised that Prater would say something like that. He probably still has an issue with Mike Portnoy after he criticized the way the drums were produced on Images and Words. In all fairness, while I think the drum sound fits the album, I can understand Mike being upset about the triggered snare and kick. I really doubt that Dream Theater kicked him out. It's a pretty simple situation to understand until the post-split drama. Mike needed a break, the other guys didn't want one, so he quit.
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My take has always been that MP left exactly as they all said. About thirty seconds later a couple of them said "OH FUCK YEAH!" and forward they went. MP's controlling nature didn't get him thrown out of the band. It sure as hell locked the door behind him, though.
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How long do you think this thread will last before it descends into anarchy?
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I'm assuming it will be the usual Prater bash fest.
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It would be interesting to hear what Prater would do with the band now, although I don't think it would have that much of an impact on anything. But it does sound like he would guide Petrucci a bit.
I also miss Beartracks
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I'm assuming it will be the usual MP bash fest.
FTFY
We wasn't kicked out, anyways. He left the band.
And that. I can't believe it even took that long to point that out. :facepalm:
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I think it's understood about his departure. Only fools and the misinformed think otherwise.
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Who is Prater?
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I believe the producer of the Images and Words album.
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We wasn't kicked out, anyways. He left the band.
And that. I can't believe it even took that long to point that out. :facepalm:
I pointed it out in the first post in this thread, friendly fella.
It would be interesting to hear what Prater would do with the band now, although I don't think it would have that much of an impact on anything. But it does sound like he would guide Petrucci a bit.
And give Mangini a better sound.
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+ACoS Co producer.
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We wasn't kicked out, anyways. He left the band.
And that. I can't believe it even took that long to point that out. :facepalm:
I pointed it out in the first post in this thread, friendly fella.
My bad! I must have skimmed over that part of your post in my morning grogginess. :) And to further my confusion, the posts after that seemed to be discussing it as if he was kicked out. So I blame rumborak. :biggrin:
Regardless, Prater hasn't really had any direct interaction with MP/DT in almost 20 years as far as I'm aware, and the band dynamic has changed a lot in that time, so his opinion isn't very relevant at all imo.
Top that off with their mutual bitterness towards each other (brought back up by the book), plus Prater's bad experience trying to persuade this forum that he's amazing and MP is the devil, and it doesn't surprise me that he's still got an ax to grind with MP.
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Regardless, Prater hasn't really had any direct interaction with MP/DT in almost 20 years as far as I'm aware, and the band dynamic has changed a lot in that time, so his opinion isn't very relevant at all imo.
Top that off with their mutual bitterness towards each other (brought back up by the book), plus Prater's bad experience trying to persuade this forum that he's amazing and MP is the devil, and it doesn't surprise me that he's still got an ax to grind with MP.
Whoa, whoa, whoa. Was there a thread archived somewhere here about that?
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It doesn't matter what Prater says about MP's departure, because it didn't concern him in any way and he has absolutely no insight into the matter.
Also, he was a total douchenozzle when he posted here. But that's beside the point.
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In his defense one should point out that in those days the forum was still littered with MP fanboys, and so Prater was being (mostly mindlessly) attacked right from the get go.
I personally actually appreciated Prater's posts. MP is incredibly passive-aggressive, and it's rare to hear the other side of things.
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Did we ever actually get proof that it was Prater? I think someone's proof was that his user name was a reference to something on his myspace page :lol, but it's not like a fan couldn't have gone there and seen that, signed up under it, and then posted under the guise of being Prater to make him look bad.
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True, but he got extra defensive about certain things, and kept on talking about Prater in third person as if he was some kind of friend that had insider information. It was suspicious enough to call him out on it and then he stopped responding so... I guess we'll never know for sure. I think most of us determined it was probably him though based on the nature of his posting.
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How can you be kicked out of a band you co-founded?
Fixed that for ya.
I suspect, legally speaking, once the band becomes a corporation from a financial standpoint, the other members could technically vote a co-founder out (although that isn't what happened here). Isn't that essentially what happened with Geoff Tate and Queensryche? I am sure bosk1 can explain this better than me.
Yes, you are basically correct. The only thing I would corredt in your post is simply the implication that Geoff Tate was a founding member of Queensryche. Your conclusion is correct either way, but the fact remains that Tate was NOT a founding member of Queensryche. The other four guys already had formed the band and had a deal to record their demo. They asked Geoff to sing on their demo, and then later asked him to join the band.
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It doesn't matter what Prater says about MP's departure, because it didn't concern him in any way and he has absolutely no insight into the matter.
Also, he was a total douchenozzle when he posted here. But that's beside the point.
Oh, did he? What/where did he post?
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I don't remember, but I'm sure one of our enterprising members can find it.
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https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=207.105
Starts at the end of fourth page, I guess.
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I was just coming to post that.
Ah, those were the days. Rich Wilson, the hero!
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Wow, just read that. Amazing.
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That was, indeed, amazing.
Such a magical place, this forum.
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Yeah, I read back through some of it as well.
Glorious.
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I have to be honest, as much as I struggled to appreciate Prater's....personality....his ideas and what he did with Dream Theater really do speak for themselves.
And yeah, that thread was 100% pure, organic awesomesauce :corn
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Oh David Prater. Hearing him and MP talk shit about each other is like watching a pissing match between two bulls.
I have to admit, I do think it's a little more entertaining than a pissing match between two bulls... Or at least, so I would imagine, I've never actually seen a pissing match between two bulls.
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How can you be kicked out of a band you founded?
== >> because of a controlling and obsessive compulsive behavior maybe ? :loser:
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I found this to be an ironic quote from that thread...
A quote from 'Snake Eyes'
A lot of DT's newer albums will be sonically dated in a few years (downtuned guitars, growling vocals, all that 'heavy' stuff DT does now). Are we going to go blaming Portnoy for that stuff in 10 years?
INB4 MP BASHING TIME.
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😌 It's perfectly ok to blame Portnoy for everything. Even MM wearing a headband.
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LOL Prater and MP in the same thread title. Talk about double jeopardy. :lol
:lokked:
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😌 It's perfectly ok to blame Portnoy for everything. Even MM wearing a headband.
Wait, MP is responsible for that?
Now I hate every DT drummer ever!!!!!! :millahhhh
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I found this to be an ironic quote from that thread...
A quote from 'Snake Eyes'
A lot of DT's newer albums will be sonically dated in a few years (downtuned guitars, growling vocals, all that 'heavy' stuff DT does now). Are we going to go blaming Portnoy for that stuff in 10 years?
INB4 MP BASHING TIME.
(https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/forumavatars/avatar_7242_1342490521.jpeg)
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Well that made me laugh. That being said they should have a dt portnoy reunion. I would see it. Both drummers, full band, choir, orchestra, fireworks and apple pie.
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I didn't want to make another thread about David Prater, so I figured I'd ask here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9VnmnrduK4
In this video, around the 5:10 mark, you can see two guys at the mixing board. Which guy is David Prater and which guy is Doug Oberkircher? Just curious.
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I think Prater is the one on the right with the darker hair.
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Okay yeah, I think you may be right. Looking at part 5 of that video, he definitely seems to be giving the orders.
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I just tried Googling pictures of both guys, and that seemed to fit.
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Yeah, I tried to Google "David Prater" and I'm pretty sure the result I got is not the guy who produced Images and Words. :lol
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Yeah, I got that. He's some district attorney or something. :lol I narrowed it down with "producer".
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Yeah, I got that. He's some district attorney or something. :lol I narrowed it down with "producer".
Prater has the sunglasses. Doug has the feathered hair.
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Prater is playing drums/BGV circa '86. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_CChOeRmWUE
Yeah, I got that. He's some district attorney or something. :lol I narrowed it down with "producer".
When you did that did you read the article about his experience down in Austin? Guy's got quite a story to tell and it actually explains why he didn't produce much at all after I&W. Long story short is that a few years after I&W he got popped down in Austin with some blow and wound up getting rung for 250 days in the big home (fucking Draconian). After about a week he was beaten nearly to death by gangbangers, and then spent three and a half months getting shit on by his crooked and incompetent Wackenhut jailers. When he got out he spent a few years trying to sue everybody involved, only to keep getting shot down for lack of standing. Pretty much everybody agreed he got a really raw deal, but he didn't have grounds to sue anybody so he got nada. Pretty sorry-ass affair, frankly.
edit: Oh, and I'm not Prater. :biggrin:
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Geez. No wonder he's so bitter.
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That is the perfect back story to become a hip hop producer.
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When you did that did you read the article about his experience down in Austin? Guy's got quite a story to tell and it actually explains why he didn't produce much at all after I&W. Long story short is that a few years after I&W he got popped down in Austin with some blow and wound up getting rung for 250 days in the big home (fucking Draconian). After about a week he was beaten nearly to death by gangbangers, and then spent three and a half months getting shit on by his crooked and incompetent Wackenhut jailers. When he got out he spent a few years trying to sue everybody involved, only to keep getting shot down for lack of standing. Pretty much everybody agreed he got a really raw deal, but he didn't have grounds to sue anybody so he got nada. Pretty sorry-ass affair, frankly.
Here's the thing - considering how much Prater spoke in hyperbole and yet referred to it as truth, how much of his account about being jailed and the way he was treated is truthful and not simply another of his hyperbolic stories? I'm not saying that there isn't some truth in what he claims, but when you look at some of the ludicrous claims he's made regarding his time working with DT and even his attempts to fool people on this forum, I would seriously question how much of his story is actual truth. Best way to know is verification by many other people - are there other people that can actually vouch for his claims, and not simply people who sympathized with him after he's told his story?
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That is the perfect back story to become a hip hop producer.
Yeah, except if he went into the studio with DMX, and treated him the way he treated DT, he'd get himself shot.
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When you did that did you read the article about his experience down in Austin? Guy's got quite a story to tell and it actually explains why he didn't produce much at all after I&W. Long story short is that a few years after I&W he got popped down in Austin with some blow and wound up getting rung for 250 days in the big home (fucking Draconian). After about a week he was beaten nearly to death by gangbangers, and then spent three and a half months getting shit on by his crooked and incompetent Wackenhut jailers. When he got out he spent a few years trying to sue everybody involved, only to keep getting shot down for lack of standing. Pretty much everybody agreed he got a really raw deal, but he didn't have grounds to sue anybody so he got nada. Pretty sorry-ass affair, frankly.
Here's the thing - considering how much Prater spoke in hyperbole and yet referred to it as truth, how much of his account about being jailed and the way he was treated is truthful and not simply another of his hyperbolic stories? I'm not saying that there isn't some truth in what he claims, but when you look at some of the ludicrous claims he's made regarding his time working with DT and even his attempts to fool people on this forum, I would seriously question how much of his story is actual truth. Best way to know is verification by many other people - are there other people that can actually vouch for his claims, and not simply people who sympathized with him after he's told his story?
Well, there's really no disputing that he got his face demolished.
(https://www.austinchronicle.com/binary/8b63/pols_feature-15221.jpeg)That's a compound fracture of the mandible and a lot of missing teeth.
As for how it transpired, there are two things there. First, his account for how it went down made him look like the complete douche you make him out to be. He asked the lead gangbanger if he'd have his boys shut up so he could get some sleep. If you're going to make up a story you would probably come up with something that paints you in a less moronic light. Second, the attitude of the guards in that and other privately run prisons is pretty well known to be exactly what he described. It was other Wackenhut guards that testified on his behalf and in fact the State of Texas sued Wackenhut for failing to provide the proper security that they were obligated to under their contract.
And to be clear, I know next to nothing about Prater. At the same time I consider him and his opinions no more or less biased or credible than the opinions of him by a forum of people who by and large think he's the antichrist in a story of five Jesuses.
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Even without the pictures, I find it hard to believe Prater would make up a story like that. I agree with you EB, the default demonization of Prater on this forum is laughable.
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Even without the pictures, I find it hard to believe Prater would make up a story like that. I agree with you EB, the default demonization of Prater on this forum is laughable.
This is a forum for Dream Theater fans. Not only does Prater come off like a complete jerk (understatement) towards them in his interviews, but a lot of his statements contradict theirs, and who are the DT fans going to believe and side with? The demonization is by no means default, and completely understandable, if you ask me.
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I have read the book, and even through being from the bands perspective, they do sound a bit young and hotheaded. In the end, Prater's suggestions were all for the better, from what I could tell. DT in '92 were a band just exploding with talent and fire for taking over the music world, and that shows more than anywhere on Images and Words. Had Prater not managed to reel the guys in a bit, Images could have been more of a talent circus than talent show.
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I have read the book, and even through being from the bands perspective, they do sound a bit young and hotheaded. In the end, Prater's suggestions were all for the better, from what I could tell. DT in '92 were a band just exploding with talent and fire for taking over the music world, and that shows more than anywhere on Images and Words. Had Prater not managed to reel the guys in a bit, Images could have been more of a talent circus than talent show.
His suggestions may have been for the better, but his tone, and the way he talks about the guys is flat out insulting and rude. He acts like the only reason people like DT was because of his production on I&W, and like DT owes the entirety of their success to him, and everything they've done without him has been a steaming pile of crap. If that's how he wants to be, fine, but he shouldn't be expecting to be winning anyone over with that kind of an attitude.
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@Skeever: I think that's the key to remember here. If Prater had produced a flop of theirs, sure, then all criticism would be valid. But, he produced IAW.
And case in point, when MP got to redo IAW, it sounded worse.
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TGP, I think you *highly* underestimate MP's role in this clash. Look at the post-DT split shit show. MP is no stranger to spewing vitriol when he doesn't get his way.
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TGP, I think you *highly* underestimate MP's role in this clash. Look at the post-DT split shit show. MP is no stranger to spewing vitriol when he doesn't get his way.
Sure, but it's not like he was the only one who ever complained about Prater. JLB has had some negative things to say about Prater as well.
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And when it comes to vitriol, maybe the guy just thinks that he had a part in producing what all the fans consider their best album, and the only thing people associate him with is fucking everything up and being a dick. I'd be pretty bitter about it. The band slag on him which means that 99% of their fans do as well by default. For all I know the guy really was a bastard, but the commentary from the band and its fans make it really difficult for an objective person to conclude one way or the other.
And the point here is that he can't even appear in an article about his lawsuit without those fans assuming that he's probably making it all up.
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And when it comes to vitriol, maybe the guy just thinks that he had a part in producing what all the fans consider their best album, and the only thing people associate him with is fucking everything up and being a dick. I'd be pretty bitter about it. The band slag on him which means that 99% of their fans do as well by default. For all I know the guy really was a bastard, but the commentary from the band and its fans make it really difficult for an objective person to conclude one way or the other.
Well, I'm one of the fans, so I'm just going to side with the band here.
And the point here is that he can't even appear in an article about his lawsuit without those fans assuming that he's probably making it all up.
See, that's a different issue entirely, and no, I'm not gonna dispute whether it's true or not. I have no reason not to believe it.
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https://www.austinchronicle.com/news/2002-07-05/96003/
So there is the article which I don't believe was posted yet in this thread
Say what you will about Prater but the for-profit prison industry is majorly fucked up. I would believe everything Prater said just based off of crap I have read elsewhere.
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And to be clear, I know next to nothing about Prater. At the same time I consider him and his opinions no more or less biased or credible than the opinions of him by a forum of people who by and large think he's the antichrist in a story of five Jesuses.
Agreed.
TGP, I think you *highly* underestimate MP's role in this clash. Look at the post-DT split shit show. MP is no stranger to spewing vitriol when he doesn't get his way.
Exactly, and he has a history of spinning the truth into his version of the truth and trying to pass it off as THE truth under the guise of "telling it like it is," so while Prater, by most accounts, appears to be a major dick, that doesn't mean he is a liar.
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Hmm, Maybe KrotchRaut should change their name to Vitriol.
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https://www.austinchronicle.com/news/2002-07-05/96003/
So there is the article which I don't believe was posted yet in this thread
Say what you will about Prater but the for-profit prison industry is majorly fucked up. I would believe everything Prater said just based off of crap I have read elsewhere.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Pz3syET3DY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Pz3syET3DY)
From the HBO Show Last Week Tonight, great funny but true rant about the US prison system. Agreed, it is majorly fucked up.
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Well, there's really no disputing that he got his face demolished.
(https://www.austinchronicle.com/binary/8b63/pols_feature-15221.jpeg)That's a compound fracture of the mandible and a lot of missing teeth.
As for how it transpired, there are two things there. First, his account for how it went down made him look like the complete douche you make him out to be. He asked the lead gangbanger if he'd have his boys shut up so he could get some sleep. If you're going to make up a story you would probably come up with something that paints you in a less moronic light. Second, the attitude of the guards in that and other privately run prisons is pretty well known to be exactly what he described. It was other Wackenhut guards that testified on his behalf and in fact the State of Texas sued Wackenhut for failing to provide the proper security that they were obligated to under their contract.
And to be clear, I know next to nothing about Prater. At the same time I consider him and his opinions no more or less biased or credible than the opinions of him by a forum of people who by and large think he's the antichrist in a story of five Jesuses.
I'm not arguing that he got jacked up - it's true that he did. And I wouldn't doubt the fact that the guards and Wackenhut didn't do their jobs properly. But I still would question some of the details of his story. Considering how much he thinks of himself (such as his comments about how he fought Derek Oliver to keep JL in the band, that it was "his call" on whether JL stayed in the band or not), I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest if he mouthed off to the gangbangers when making his request that they keep it down - in fact, the records say his response to them when they refused to quiet down was "Well, **** you then, see you in the multipurpose room." which sounds like a completely different person compared to "Could you ask some of these guys, please, because some of us have to sleep." Not that I'm saying that he deserved the beating he got, but I wouldn't be surprised if he mouthed off to some of the wrong people and had to deal with the consequences of that.
As for MP not being any more trustworthy in recalling what went down in Beartracks for the recording of IaW and ACoS, don't forget that there were several others who were quoted in Lifting Shadows that helped tell the story. If it was completely just MP vs. Prater, then you guys might have a point that MP's story is just as skewed as Prater's, but when you see JL arguing that Prater is full of it (see the top of page 102), then I think you need to reassess who's story is closer to the truth.
One further thing - since El Barto brought it up - I realize that Prater had some recovery time after his prison ordeal, but after that was over, what would've prevented him from continuing to produce albums? Especially with the lawsuit draining him financially, I'd expect him to be working double time to try to earn money to fill his drained bank account.
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And case in point, when MP got to redo IAW, it sounded worse.
When did Portnoy redo I&W? Is this the Greatest Hit album?
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And case in point, when MP got to redo IAW, it sounded worse.
When did Portnoy redo I&W? Is this the Greatest Hit album?
Yea, the I&W tracks on the greatest hits album were remixed. I personally do not like them compared to the original.
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I don't either.
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I don't think there are a lot of people who prefer the remixes.
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I don't think there are a lot of people who prefer the remixes.
Yeah, but I've read from some of them.
I'm not against the idea of remixes. I just don't like how these turned out.
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I don't have a good copy of the remixes because I don't buy greatest hit(s) albums except for bands that I only casually follow due to one or two songs that caught my ear.
So I listened to the YouTube version of it, but that's probably not fair way to judge the remixes.
Prater did a good job, so I wasn't really clamoring for a different mix (even with the triggered snare).
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I don't think there are a lot of people who prefer the remixes.
Yeah, but I've read from some of them.
I'm not against the idea of remixes. I just don't like how these turned out.
Oh, yeah, in general there's nothing wrong with remixes. Clearly, the remix of Vapor Trails produced something much nicer.
I think, in order to produce better remixes for the DT-best-of, they would have needed a completely fresh producer to look t it. As it was, I think MP came in with a lot of baggage of what he perceived to be the "problems" of albums like IAW, so what they ended up with "fixed" thing that were never really broken (e.g. most people are fine with IAW's triggered drums), but didn't improve things that could have used improvements.
Particularly I don't like the vocal effects they put on for the remix. It makes James sound flat.
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I don't think there are a lot of people who prefer the remixes.
Yeah, but I've read from some of them.
I'm not against the idea of remixes. I just don't like how these turned out.
Oh, yeah, in general there's nothing wrong with remixes. Clearly, the remix of Vapor Trails produced something much nicer.
That's what I keep hearing. I guess I need to check it out.
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As it was, I think MP came in with a lot of baggage of what he perceived to be the "problems" of albums like IAW, so what they ended up with "fixed" thing that were never really broken (e.g. most people are fine with IAW's triggered drums), but didn't improve things that could have used improvements.
Good point on the baggage. I helped a friend record his band quite a few years ago. Most of the song's came out great, but one song was a bit thin. It bothered me quite a bit that the one song just lacked the low end.
So I remixed it much later (months, maybe years later). Since the portastudio was still hooked up with some of his FX units, I decided to remix all the other songs again. The baggage of not enough bass in one song led me to adding way too much bass in the remixes. So sometimes going in to do a remix without wiping away your preconceptions first usually makes exaggerated fixes.
The snare did sound better on the I&W remix, but everything else might have sounded worse.
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The snare did sound better on the I&W remix, but everything else might have sounded worse.
I didn't think it sounded better. It just sounded weird.
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The snare did sound better on the I&W remix, but everything else might have sounded worse.
I didn't think it sounded better. It just sounded weird.
I don't mind the remix at all but I don't necessarily think it is an improvement.
I for one am not a fan of the triggered drums but this remix didn't make it better...it just put a different perspective on it.
But yeah, the new snare sound is kind of weird.
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The problem with the original snare sound was not timbre, but dynamics. Triggered drum sounds as a one off are usually painstakingly recorded, so on a one to one comparison, they usually sound better assuming they don't suggest a dated preference (the Phil Collins gated reverb snare).
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I love the original snare sound--love the big boomy '80s snare/bass/toms effect. The I&W snare is miles above the ACOS one, for example. The lack of dynamics is occasionally a bit glaring but has never really bothered me.
The other problem with the updated snare is that the rest of the tracks (notably JP and KM's) are intact in their original 80's-ish, "bright" form. Putting a more "modern" sounding snare in with those sorts of tones doesn't really fit. The only other sort of snare sound that would fit in the overall song contexts would've been more of a European power metal snare sound, which is a bit crisper but still is big and reverbed. If MP wanted the modern snare, he should've used newer live versions (where JP and, by then, JR used more updated tones) or just had everyone re-record the parts (except James, perhaps).
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One of the things in the remix that really struck me was the bass harmonics in the beginning of Pull Me Under. Had never ever heard them before the remix.
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One of the things in the remix that really struck me was the bass harmonics in the beginning of Pull Me Under. Had never ever heard them before the remix.
I agree. The bass sound was awful though.