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Dream Theater => Dream Theater => Topic started by: tiagodon on September 25, 2014, 11:48:14 AM
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DT is the band that introduced me to jazz. IMO, without jazz there would be no progressive music. Today I see DT music as the metal version of the bebop jazz.
Anyway... I thank them for that!
My intention with this thread is to get to know fans that got to love jazz because of prog music and are consumers of jazz music today. I think we could share some good stuff here.
I am a beginner. This is what DT led me to so far:
a) Animals as Leaders - very jazzy sound, but still prog metal;
b) Virgil Donattiīs In This Life - great fusion (metal-jazz);
c) Hiromi Trio Project - great jazzy piano with bass and drums with a rock nīroll feel;
d) Dave Weckl Band - Iīd say that I admire his drumming as I do Portnoyīs (and Donattiīs, and Garstkaīs).
If thereīs anyone there with a similar taste, what would you recommend?
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I don't see too strong a connection between the two, but guitar players may enjoy Allan Holdsworth, Pat Martino, Return To Forever, etc.
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If thereīs anyone there with a similar taste, what would you recommend?
If you haven't checked out Steven Wilson's solo stuff yet, I highly recommend it if you love prog/rock/jazz.
He is incredible live, complete with a band of virtuosos.
This song is amazing, and a perfect example of how he infuses jazz with progressive music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Hp6lYx4Fvw
Hope you enjoy.
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OMG, Adamack! Thatīs deep! And disturbing! Iīve been listening to a lot of his solo stuff since I read your post. Not exactly jazz, but great material! Thanks!
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I don't see too strong a connection between the two, but guitar players may enjoy Allan Holdsworth, Pat Martino, Return To Forever, etc.
Oh, yes, they are very connected. Prog rock music, just like jazz (well, a segment of it), is an attempt to abandon the pop model and give greater artistic weight to the music, i.e., to favor instrumentation and technique, to explore more complex music structures.
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While one could argue that over time jazz and prog have influenced each other, their evolution happened in vastly different times and mostly independent of each other. Prog's roots are in 70s hippie art rock that was more about "consciousness expansion".
Regarding DT, I would say that DT has way too little jazz influence. They are to me *the* band who would benefit from delving into that style more. They certainly explored the metal edge, and then some.
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Yeah, I see almost no connection between jazz and DT.
In fact, I'm not sure of much connection between jazz and most prog rock.
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I even think JP in some interview i've seen regarding his guitar influences that he actually never been very influenced by jazz although he praised Al Di Meola alot. Don't quote me though, just something that came to mind.
When it comes to their music, jazz is not the first that comes to mind but that's just me. The fact that you've discovered jazz is awesome though. All praise the lord and savior Mr Weckl! :hefdaddy
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OMG, Adamack! Thatīs deep! And disturbing! Iīve been listening to a lot of his solo stuff since I read your post. Not exactly jazz, but great material! Thanks!
No prob!
And yeah you're right...definitely not really jazz in the definition of chord structure, heavy improvisation, etc.
I guess it is safer to say that some of the songs are influenced from jazz. Lots of amazing flute/sax solos with jazz-inspired scales, some walking bass line breakdowns, and minor solo improvisations.
I'm not huge into jazz myself, but I really appreciate its skill and complexity. And I really love how some bands derive influences from jazz and blend it with their own styles, similar to what SW has done.
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I love their jazz improv in Metropolis in LALP. :)
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OMG, Adamack! Thatīs deep! And disturbing! Iīve been listening to a lot of his solo stuff since I read your post. Not exactly jazz, but great material! Thanks!
SW's "Grace For Drowning" has a lot of little jazz influences. If you haven't already, check out Sectarian, Deform To Form A Star, Remainder The Black Dog, and Raider II
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When comes to jazz fusion, my main recommendation is Headhunters (by Herbie Hancock), quintessential release.
You should try Mahavishnu Orchestra and Zappa as well.
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Headhunters is the essential fusion album. Then Bitches Brew by Miles.
I think the only influence most prog in general ever takes from Jazz is the approach to soloing/improvisation. Especially recently, we've gotten a lot of guitar players who are hugely influenced by jazz guitarists as much as rock guitarists, so you hear that style leaking into their playing. You also have bands like Haken who straight up throw pure jazz sections into their music. And they do it really well.
That said, there are some jazz fusion groups that tow the line into progressive rock too. Mahavishnu, Hiromi's Trio, Frank Zappa (when he was doing jazz fusion) all come pretty close. But there's still a pretty clear difference there.
DT could definitely tap into this a bit. Although I wonder how capable they are of it. I'm sure JP could channel Al Di Meola and Morse for improvisation, but I'm not sure about the others. JR doesn't seem like a particularly good improviser and I have no idea if Mangini has the ability to restrain himself a bit and swing. I've never heard jazz influence in JM's playing but I'm sure he's capable at least.
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Pat Metheny has a few songs that I would consider kinda progressive.
One that springs to mind is First Circle. It's primarily in 22/8(Counted as 12/8 + 10/8) and is overall just a damn fun song to listen to or play.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GrdbyCNJVKg
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DT could definitely tap into this a bit. Although I wonder how capable they are of it. I'm sure JP could channel Al Di Meola and Morse for improvisation, but I'm not sure about the others. JR doesn't seem like a particularly good improviser and I have no idea if Mangini has the ability to restrain himself a bit and swing. I've never heard jazz influence in JM's playing but I'm sure he's capable at least.
Doesn't this qualify as proof that they can swing? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0QJKJL2Df90&t=8m30s
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And this jam improv by MM actually makes me confident that he can do jazz if DT wants to. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6y4ipRjDME :metal
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DT could definitely tap into this a bit. Although I wonder how capable they are of it. I'm sure JP could channel Al Di Meola and Morse for improvisation, but I'm not sure about the others. JR doesn't seem like a particularly good improviser and I have no idea if Mangini has the ability to restrain himself a bit and swing. I've never heard jazz influence in JM's playing but I'm sure he's capable at least.
Doesn't this qualify as proof that they can swing? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0QJKJL2Df90&t=8m30s
Not really. Do you know what swing is? Just cause it sounds jazzy doesn't mean it's swinging.
That is some of the best improv I've heard from JR though.
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I don't see a big connection either but;
Frank Gambale
Brett Garsed
Larry Carlton
George Benson
Pat Methany
Allan Holdsworth
Dixie Dregs
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DT could definitely tap into this a bit. Although I wonder how capable they are of it. I'm sure JP could channel Al Di Meola and Morse for improvisation, but I'm not sure about the others. JR doesn't seem like a particularly good improviser and I have no idea if Mangini has the ability to restrain himself a bit and swing. I've never heard jazz influence in JM's playing but I'm sure he's capable at least.
Doesn't this qualify as proof that they can swing? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0QJKJL2Df90&t=8m30s
Not really. Do you know what swing is? Just cause it sounds jazzy doesn't mean it's swinging.
That is some of the best improv I've heard from JR though.
I know what swing is. What i am saying is that their improv is an indicator that they are not really limited by their current style and they can choose to do another style like swing if they want to.
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JR doesn't seem like a particularly good improviser
Out of curiosity what makes you think that? Every video you see of JR on YT that's not affiliated with DT is usually somemkind of demonstration of him improvising.
2 sec search and this comes up:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDjAqpMlgVU
and there's literally tons of similar videos on yt. Although not to say that it's full on jazz improv but he sure does incorporate jazz harmonies from time to time.
Of course the definition of good improv and especially jazz improv is subjective but if you ask me he's pretty incredible and the passion he has for the instrument and performing is equally inspiring. I wouldn't be surprised if not one day goes by where he dosen't touch an instrument of some sort.
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Miles Davis - In a Silent Way
Miles Davis - Bitches Brew
any of the Return to Forever albums
To my ears, there is a fair amount of jazz influence in Yes, as well.
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If we're talking about jazz' influence on the progressive genre we need to recognize:
Dave Brubeck
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JR doesn't seem like a particularly good improviser
Out of curiosity what makes you think that? Every video you see of JR on YT that's not affiliated with DT is usually somemkind of demonstration of him improvising.
That kinda confuses me too. JR creates more new music in a day than most people could come up with in a year. I'd say he's the best improviser the band has had. He has such a direct connection from his ears and mind to his hands that it's near effortless for him to play whatever he's thinking of on the spot.
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OMG, Adamack! Thatīs deep! And disturbing! Iīve been listening to a lot of his solo stuff since I read your post. Not exactly jazz, but great material! Thanks!
SW's "Grace For Drowning" has a lot of little jazz influences. If you haven't already, check out Sectarian, Deform To Form A Star, Remainder The Black Dog, and Raider II
Absolutely. 3 of the 4 songs you mentioned (Sectarian, DTFAS, and Raider II) are my 3 favorite songs on that album.
I highly recommend the live version of Sectarian from Mexico City.
There is a part in this performance near the end when the huge curtain in front of the band is flown off. It is such an epic moment. It is nothing short of incredible, and I have goosebumps just thinking about it.
That kinda confuses me too. JR creates more new music in a day than most people could come up with in a year. I'd say he's the best improviser the band has had. He has such a direct connection from his ears and mind to his hands that it's near effortless for him to play whatever he's thinking of on the spot.
100%. JR is a true master on the keys, and I agree that he is the best improviser the band has had.
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I have some issues with brass instruments! :lol They are kind of annoying to my ears. That's why I don't enjoy Headhunters or Mile's Bitches Brew too much.
The best song on Bitches Brew is the one that the guitar is the main solo instrument (by John McLaughlin).
And I don't enjoy too much electronic sounds either.
The perfect fusion to me is the one with guitars or piano leading and drums with strong presence! No orchestration, no brass instruments, no electronics. Maybe this is due to the rock/metal influence on me.
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We can catalog some jazzy parts in DT songs.
For example:
1) Metropolis pt 1: 7:00-7:22
2) Dance of Eternity: 2:30-2:47
3) Octavarium: 17:38-17:52
4) The Dark Eternal Night: 4:30-4:37; 4:49-5:10
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The Contortionist's new album "Language" is absolutely jazzy.
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My expression to the people that don't see the connection between Jazz and prog, or for that matter jazz and DT... :omg: :huh:
They practically derive from each other these days, but the main difference between them would be the roots of when these terms were relevant in establishing a meaning for something that was perceived, and deliberately defined to be somewhat new and different. Or something trying to break free of the confines of conventional composition. Because jazz is a much older term, jazz might not be inclusive of prog, but as far as I understand what prog is (which has always been a growing and changing definition by nature), jazz is inclusive within the genre of progressive music. Also, DT have plenty of jazzy moments, most of the time they explore unconventional progressions and melodies derives from these jazz influences.
Also, Jordan practically breathes inprovisation, to even have the impression that he's not very good at improvising does not compute with me on any level. :lol
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When people use the phrase "prog" they aren't using it as short for the word "progressive", they are using it to describe a style of music. "Prog" is marked by heavily orchestrated, composed, and arranged music, with little (if any) room for improv.
Jazz is all about improv.
I have no doubt that JR could play jazz, and he is an improv-ing beast, but other than a few brief moments here and there, I don't see any jazz influence whatsoever in DT's discography.
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Contortionist's "Language" is really good, Progdrummer. I just listened to it after reading your post.
But I have the feeling that it would have been greater if it was an instrumental album. That mellow/guttural voice doesn't seem to fit properly...
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When people use the phrase "prog" they aren't using it as short for the word "progressive", they are using it to describe a style of music. "Prog" is marked by heavily orchestrated, composed, and arranged music, with little (if any) room for improv.
Jazz is all about improv.
I have no doubt that JR could play jazz, and he is an improv-ing beast, but other than a few brief moments here and there, I don't see any jazz influence whatsoever in DT's discography.
Pretty much how I feel to.
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I don't see too strong a connection between the two, but guitar players may enjoy Allan Holdsworth, Pat Martino, Return To Forever, etc.
Oh, yes, they are very connected. Prog rock music, just like jazz (well, a segment of it), is an attempt to abandon the pop model and give greater artistic weight to the music, i.e., to favor instrumentation and technique, to explore more complex music structures.
I wouldn't say that is a connection between the two. It's an extremely broad characterization that could be applied to any number of unrelated sub-genres. Any similarity in that regard is coincidental and not a "connection." I'm sure that even within Reggae there is some movement that calls for "greater artistic weight to the music." That doesn't mean it is connected to prog or some other genre. As someone else said earlier, Jazz is about improvisation. It's nearly the definition of Jazz. Never mind the harmonic language, which instantly tells you it's Jazz. DT has neither of those things.
Although they are totally unrelated, sometimes there are records that incorporate both. Return to Forever's Romantic Warrior is a great example of a combination of the two styles. But as for Dream Theater's catalogue, it is virtually non-existent.
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The only prog band with jazz influences I can think of is ELP.
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To say that there arent plenty of prog bands who have a jazzy influence or even just jazz undertones in the music seems absurd to me. King Crimson doesnt sound like jazz at times? Goblin doesnt sound like jazz at times? Marillion doesnt sound like jazz at times? Steven Wilson doesnt just straight up have jazz segments in his songs?
Not all jazz is lively, free form and crazy improvisational all of the time.
Perhaps prog is more similar to jazz fusion than traditional jazz, but its jazz nontheless.
Listening to Trioscapes, for example. What would you consider that? Jazz or prog rock?
I say prog rock.
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It's the extent to which it is influenced that is important. DT has ELP-style circus music interludes. Does that mean prog is influenced by circus music? Exactly, no. And just because DT plays an augmented chord here and there, or just because you can drag out a band (that I have not heard of) that is jazzy, doesn't mean the genre has anything more than a fleeting association with jazz.
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When people use the phrase "prog" they aren't using it as short for the word "progressive", they are using it to describe a style of music. "Prog" is marked by heavily orchestrated, composed, and arranged music, with little (if any) room for improv.
Jazz is all about improv.
I have no doubt that JR could play jazz, and he is an improv-ing beast, but other than a few brief moments here and there, I don't see any jazz influence whatsoever in DT's discography.
I understand what you're saying, and I know the term progressive and prog are mutually exclusive (even if occasionally inclusive) in relation to each other. DT have a few moments where they feel jazzy, but most of these moments are still contrived so it'll be the same everytime, but I still say progressive music is inclusive of jazz styles, which is why DT can be said to have jazz influence. Even if it's indirectly, a lot of the composition can still have jazz roots when it's first written and especially when it's improvised on the spot; before it's solidified into a fixed passage. Furthermore, I don't see how any of the 'carnival' passages could not have derived from improv and various forms of jazz styles. Even if you look at it the way Rumby put it, there's still an association (however fleeting) because of the structure of these passages which I believe originates in the writing process.
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When I say jazz and prog are connected, I'm talking about attitude, not exactly music style or genre.
Jazz is an attitude, an attitude against popular musical structures, an attitude that values technique and complexity. Jazz bebop is musicians playing for musicians.
DT was the band that twisted the knob inside my head and made me start hating pop and simple musical structures. That's why, thanks to them, I started loving jazz.
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To say that there arent plenty of prog bands who have a jazzy influence or even just jazz undertones in the music seems absurd to me. King Crimson doesnt sound like jazz at times? Goblin doesnt sound like jazz at times? Marillion doesnt sound like jazz at times? Steven Wilson doesnt just straight up have jazz segments in his songs?
Not all jazz is lively, free form and crazy improvisational all of the time.
Perhaps prog is more similar to jazz fusion than traditional jazz, but its jazz nontheless.
Listening to Trioscapes, for example. What would you consider that? Jazz or prog rock?
I say prog rock.
Trioscapes! Thank you Progdrummer. Loved it!
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JP said recently that he would be probably playing in a jazz band if he was not in a prog metal band!
"If you went back in time to the beginning of your guitar career but had to play a style other than prog metal, what would you play?
Umm, other than prog metal? That's a good question. I'm kind of driven to challenging stuff so I guess that could be in any genre but it would probably be jazz. Or maybe it's a little bit too closed but the whole fusion thing. There was a big period where I was really into DiMeola and Jean-Luc Ponty and Return to Forever and all that stuff. Chick Corea. So I could picture that kinda style as well. Frank Gambali I got into. It's interesting and fun and really advanced harmonically and very challenging."
https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/interviews/interviews/john_petrucci_answers_readers_questions_thanks_to_all_the_people_who_submitted.html?no_takeover
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Yeah, but he DIDN'T go into jazz. He would have, but he didn't.
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Yeah, but he relates to the attitude, and that's my point and that's why DT led me to jazz.
And that's why JP could end up playing jazz at the end of his career! :biggrin: That would be awesome!
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I have some issues with brass instruments! :lol They are kind of annoying to my ears. That's why I don't enjoy Headhunters or Mile's Bitches Brew too much.
Well, that's like: Loves progressive metal/not enjoy Images and Words or Scenes from a Memory too much :D
When I say jazz and prog are connected, I'm talking about attitude, not exactly music style or genre.
Jazz is an attitude, an attitude against popular musical structures, an attitude that values technique and complexity. Jazz bebop is musicians playing for musicians.
DT was the band that twisted the knob inside my head and made me start hating pop and simple musical structures. That's why, thanks to them, I started loving jazz.
Well, there's nothing wrong with pop or simple musical structures, only if you gonna "generalize" them.
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Yeah, I can relate. DT kinda put me off the general idea of songs being primarily and soly built on those structures, not to dismiss them completely because a fun catchy song with a simple progression are generally elements that describe some of best songs ever written. But it does start get old and tiring when you start recognising the same patterns in every generic track you hear on the radio. Some artists are pros at making magic out of those structures, but others seem to try and emulate the formula to fit in, and it's just kinda boring and manufactured by that point.