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General => General Discussion => Topic started by: Orbert on September 18, 2014, 12:14:38 PM
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At choir rehearsal, we're working on a new piece, and our director mentions that she knows the guy who wrote it. This isn't unbelieveable or anything; she's been in the biz for many years and she picks all the music, so sure, it happens sometimes. Someone asks how she knows him, and she says they knew each other in college, where they both studied choral music. Being the smartass that I am, I ask "Did you date?"
She pauses for a second, then gets this smile on her face and says "He would have liked to. But no."
I say "Ah, you friend-zoned him."
She's confused. "I friend... what?" ???
I repeat "You friend-zoned him. You know, you put him in the friend zone." I'm thinking maybe she'd never heard the term used as a verb before, but certainly as a noun. I mean, most nouns can be used as verbs, and people will know what you mean even if technically it's not a correct use of the word. Like sending something to someone and saying you "FedEx'd it" or charging something with a credit card and saying you "Visa'd it".
She thinks for a second. "The 'friend zone'? I guess I see what you mean..." No, she's never heard the term before. :omg:
I'm a tenor; tenors and basses (men) sit in the back row, sopranos and altos (women) sit in the front, and every single woman turns around and is looking at me, confused.
"What?" I ask. "No one here has heard the term 'friend zone' before?" Some of the guys say some reaffirming things, and suddenly I realize that this is a term that basically only guys use. It has meaning to us; women tend to do it so naturally and without thinking that there's no need to even have a word for it. They just don't think of it that way.
Or maybe because the term "friend zone" has a negative connotation for guys, but for women it's just something that's done to keep things simple in their relationships.
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(https://www.slantmagazine.com/assets/film/justfriends.jpg)
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That's because "friend-zoning" is a mental creation by guys to explain why a woman they like either sexually or romantically (or both) only feels platonically towards them. It's not likely an intentional thing women do, in the sense that they are simply friends, while the guy wants to be more. For whatever psychological, sociological or other reason, it seems men are more likely to be in the situation of unrequited feelings than women, inasmuch as a term would be coined for it.
To most women, "friend-zoning" just means being friends, while to men it's taken as a penning in of their emotions, a virtual imprisonment from which they can't escape.
At least that's my take on it. I've never been friend-zoned, at least not that I've known. I've also not really pursued anyone who would put me in "the friend zone." I personally believe it's a male creation to rationalize why someone they like doesn't like them in return. I find it kind of vilifying of women, too, because it tends to look negatively upon those who don't return the romance.
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There was an episode of Regular Show about this, that's the first thing I thought of.
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That's bullshit. Girls know exactly what they're doing.
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Hyperplex, while i see what you are saying, the term is not without substance though. Who hasn't heard of stories of girls (but also boys) saying "I never looked at her/him that way, always considered him a friend. And suddenly that changed." So, there *is* that effect of habitually not even considering somebody as a potential mate, not necessarily out of sincere lack of attraction, but simply because it went down that particular track early on. That's the "friend zone", and indeed it is very hard to change that.
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Yes, friend-zoning is real.
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Friend zone is just something a guy comes up with because they're pissy or upset that a girl doesn't share the same feelings for them.
You should be happy that someone wants to be your friend, even if they don't want to take it further than that.
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That's bullshit. Girls know exactly what they're doing.
Yeah....she and every woman there know what the friend zone is. In fact, every one of them are involved in a massive competition to see how many guys they can get to fall for it and hang around in the friend zone.....and the women that are really good at it marry a dude and then get him to take a seat in the friend zone as well. Those women are considered the 'wizards' or 'Jedi' of the woman species.
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I'm not denying that it exists, I'm just saying that the colloquialism has been created as a way to "explain" the phenomenon. That said, it is extremely male-centric, and it has a stigma of placing guilt and blame on the girl for not returning the feelings, as if they were somehow owed to the guy who has them.
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Guys call it the 'friend zone'.......girls call it the 'creep who wants to shag me zone'.....
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There are girls that know full well that a guy is in love with them and they'll let him go for months thinking he has a chance. They should woman up and let the guy know right away instead of emptying his wallet for an entire summer.
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just posting here to say that "woman up" is an awesome term :lol
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In recent years it seems there has been a big backlash against this term by feminists claiming the idea itself is mysoginist... Personally, while I am sure the term has been used by people in sexist or downright hateful rants, it is a perfectly fine term for situations that could apply to people of any gender, but, as you have observed, tends to apply more to guys being "friendzoned" by girls.
I don't have statistics to back this up, and it may be influenced by media portrayals as much as real life (although as we all know, art imitates life and life imitates art), but from all my experienceds by impression is this:
1. In male-female friendships (assuming they are both attracted to the opposite gender), it's more likely that the guy will be interested in the girl romantically or sexually than the other way round. By this I mean that, in the absence of other obstacles (e.g. both are single), it is more likely that the male would be willing to start a relationship (or even just sleep with) the female than the other way around. So there are a lot more cases of guys that are friends with girls they would be interested in doing more with than the other way round.
2. Girls in general seem to have a more binary distinction between "romantic interest" and "just a friend" than guys do. In addition, this is not just a case of having friends that you would never be interested in - it's the "I don't think of them that way" factor at play, not just the fact that the girl would never be interested in them anyway.
For those reasons (which, again, are just my suspicions about reality based on anecdotal evidence rather than anything I have statistics for) I think the "friend zone" is a useful term, and though it can cut both ways it more likely applies to the standard guy being in the "friend zone". Also I would consider it basically a descriptive term that can apply to a bunch of different scenarios, rather than one that assigns blame to one person or the other. I am sure scenarios could exist ranging from both extremes, from the blameless angel unknowingly friends with a vile mysoginist who is basically a rapist and believes being "nice" entitles him to sex, to the evil bitch manipulating and stringing along the heroic, sensitive guy and deliberately taking advantage of him and what he does for her while banging the biggest douchebags in the universe just to make him feel bad.
Saying someone was in the friend zone (or whatever else you call it) doesn't have to suggest the relationship is one way for the other. Basically it just seems to be used whenever someone is friends with someone but interested in them romantically while the other person isn't, though personally I think its only really meaningful when part of the reason for the lack of attraction from one of the people is because of the friendship, ("If you don't ask her out soon you'll be stuck in the zone forever", to paraphrase the episode of Friends that helped introduce the term to popular culture).
Probably bigger post than the OP warranted, but I have seen discussion about "friend zones" turn into shitstorms elsewhere so I thought I may as well just get my opinion on that argument in...
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Every woman I've dated (for more than a year...longest one was 7, I haven't had too many serious relationships, but just for reference...not some wanna-be player here) has started with the friend-zone. People who complain about being friend-zoned are the losers. The worst kind of losers...the sore losers who give up and don't know what it means to have a penis. Friend-zone? GOOD, I'M GLAD, THAT MEANS I'M ONE STEP CLOSER TO YOUR JIGGLYPUFF.
Psh! Feh! Friend-zone...I do my best work in the friend-zone. The tenacity of humans, the resolve of the testicles, these are the Friend-Zoners. Zone of the Enders? Zone of the Friend-Zone-Enders.
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Uh, OK.
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GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOD HEFFY, FINE! No casserole for you tonight.
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Every woman I've dated (for more than a year...longest one was 7, I haven't had too many serious relationships, but just for reference...not some wanna-be player here) has started with the friend-zone. People who complain about being friend-zoned are the losers. The worst kind of losers...the sore losers who give up and don't know what it means to have a penis. Friend-zone? GOOD, I'M GLAD, THAT MEANS I'M ONE STEP CLOSER TO YOUR JIGGLYPUFF.
Psh! Feh! Friend-zone...I do my best work in the friend-zone. The tenacity of humans, the resolve of the testicles, these are the Friend-Zoners. Zone of the Enders? Zone of the Friend-Zone-Enders.
Actually, I can agree. Ive gotten into relationships with girls after first being friend-zoned. Its possible.
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Friend zone just means you now have access to all their friends
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Friend zone just means you now have access to all their friends
But are the friends willing?
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Friend zone just means you now have access to all their friends
But are the friends willing?
Depends on whether or not that put you into the friend zone.
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Friend zone just means you now have access to all their friends
Haha, this is awesome! Gonna have to use that one.
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Guys always look at girls like we have a shot, girls look for something in guys so in the end, guys don't hang out with girls they don't want to bang.
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In recent years it seems there has been a big backlash against this term by feminists
And for good reason, too.
Obviously I'm not accusing anyone here that's using the term of being misogynistic just on the basis of using this phrase. And I agree that its use can be completely harmless in many contexts.
With that being said, the whole concept of 'friend zoning' has been used way too many times as a way to criticize victims of sexual assault. Oh you left him stranded in the friend zone? Why do you have to be such a tease? Effectively deflecting the blame off of those creeps who can't accept the limitations of a platonic relationship. And while that may be extreme, both personal experience and statistics back it up. I can't remember the exact number, but something close to 2/3 of all rape victims know their violators. I'm not going to make an uneducated guess on the numbers, but I can't help but wonder how many of those rapists felt unfairly 'friend zoned'. And how much does this kind of language perpetuate men's sense of entitlement, if at all? Once again, I'm not going to make any claims. I just think that it's worth bringing up. It's also funny how many people talk about it like the girls who are 'friend zoning' us are doing it just for shits and giggles. Like it's some sort of sadistic punishment, just because they can. And maybe there are chicks who do that. In fact, I'm sure there probably are. But by and large I think most of us who have been friend zoned probably just weren't an interesting enough prospect, and that's fine. On the flip side, while the term can be used to describe guys it almost never is. And even less commonly with the same spiteful connotation.
Just my 2 cents. Apologies for what might be a very disorganized train of thought. I haven't quite figured it out in my head yet. I just think the whole thing can be very problematic if we're not careful.
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There are girls that know full well that a guy is in love with them and they'll let him go for months thinking he has a chance. They should woman up and let the guy know right away instead of emptying his wallet for an entire summer.
Either you've been watching too many movies, or you know the worst people possible. I feel like these kind of occurrences are outliers, and as many others in here have said, the friend zone is just a thing guys use to put the blame for not getting a girl off of themselves.
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Wow, some of you guys have a much more negative interpretation of the term than I do. I don't connect the concept of "blame" to it, associate it with teasing or leading on in any way, and certainly don't see it as any form of justification for sexual assault.
I just thought it was interesting that many, perhaps most, females seem to separate guys into those they would consider potential romantic/sexual partners, and those that would be "just friends". Those are the two "zones". And jokingly, cynically, but perhaps with at least some truth, I don't think guys draw the line so clearly because basically any female is a potential romantic/sexual partner, even friends. Even if she's not your type, or what you'd normally consider good-looking, spend enough time with her, and you never know.
The only negative thing I was thinking was that it can be very frustrating for guys to spend a lot of time with someone, thinking that they're making some kind of progress towards getting her to see him as a potential partner, when in her mind he's "just" a friend. And I put that in quotes because there's really nothing negative about it, nothing wrong with it, except that the guy might want something more.
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Sort of in line with what Orbert has said, I only see the term as becoming a problem when "blame" is attached to it and the guy uses it as some sort of crutch for why they can't
get laid find a mate.
The term itself isn't inherently wrong, but is easily made fallible once blame is placed on the girl as if they are romantically obligated to the guy or something. And that's not to say that chicks don't get friend-zoned as well--oh yeah, it happens. To me, the "friend-zone" is broadly defined as a situation in which a person desires no sexual/romantic relationship with somebody else who does. I think it's a fine enough term that shortens up a drawn-out explanation of somebody's dilemma. It's quite a useful term in some instances. Over time, however it's gotten such a negative connotation and has become a "trigger" word of sorts.
The phenomenon does exist, but it's a shame that so many guys play the "friend-zone" card to justify their failed attempts at a relationship and then continue to harp on it as if the woman committed some heinous crime. The interesting thing to me is that while I've known many girls to have fallen into the friend-zone, I've not heard one of them directly use the term to place blame on the guy. It's definitely a male-centric concept, even though it can go both ways.
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I have no sympathy for guys who complain about being 'friend zoned'. There's nothing tragic about being 'just friends' with a girl you like.
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I'm not saying this applies to you guys but in my experience, men who use the term "I've been friend-zoned" are men who wants to sleep with their hot friend but their friend won't let them.
Look, I can understand the feeling of being in love with someone who doesn't feel the same way as you do. But to say that it's a female thing to friend-zone their guy friends is implying that "the bitch should just let me put my cock in her" and is kinda sexist. (What's wrong with being sexy?)
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I think there is a distinction
You have a girl you like, that you want to go further with but she just isn't into you that way. So she "friend zones" you and that is up to her really. It doesn't mean she's a bitch or anything like that. It's just how it is. But there are girls (and probably guys) who enjoy that feeling of a "queue" forming behind them of willing suitors. My ex was (and is) like that. She loved and lapped up the attention of guys - slept with many of them as well. But she'd flirt and lead guys on then express no sexual interest.
I've had platonic relationships with girls - some very attractive that I might have taken things further with had it gone that way. I'm pretty laid back though so was happy to be friends and leave it at that. I'd never express interest first. I still haven't ever asked a girl out and I'm in my 30's. I always wait to get asked. Just seems safer that way. Trouble with that is I'd often be attracted to a girl purely cos she was attracted to me - which is pretty fucked up.
My current gf is that first time I've ever been with a girl that I liked first. It makes a big diff.
Think I went a OT there :-/
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Wow, some of you guys have a much more negative interpretation of the term than I do. I don't connect the concept of "blame" to it, associate it with teasing or leading on in any way, and certainly don't see it as any form of justification for sexual assault.
I'm completely with Orbert here. I've never even heard the term used in the way some of you guys are discussing. I don't associate it with any of that stuff, just describing something that actually exists.
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As usual, I am also in agreement with Orbert.
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So let me make sure I understand - the people who take issue with this terminology see it as some sort of quasi-slut shaming device, wherein if she's not interested, he goes on about the friend zone, like she's a huge cocktease. Basically, in the same sentence throwing out a blanket stereotype about men, as trollish cockmonsters who whine if they're not allowed to fuck anything that moves. Got it.
Are we really in need of so much drama in our lives that we have to make every benign piece of terminology into some horrible and unacceptable social faux pas like this? I see this kinda crap on FB almost daily and I want to just shake some people and say "KNOCK IT THE FUCK OFF! WAKE UP AND REALIZE EVERYTHING SUCKS ONLY IF YOU MAKE IT SUCK! LIFE IS GOOD, BE HAPPY!"
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I've had platonic relationships with girls - some very attractive that I might have taken things further with had it gone that way.
First, yes, people MIGHT turn nouns into verbs, but it is a practice that can't end quickly enough for me. People also bang sheep and inhale spray paint fumes. Doesn't mean you should do it.
Second, your sentence - whether you intended to do this or not - speaks volumes, because SHE likely would NOT "have taken things further had it gone that way". I do think this is one of those areas where men and women are just different, and that's where the "friend zone" exists. I have had female friends before, platonically, but I can't honestly say that I never once ever thought of being intimate with them. I sort of have this issue in my relationship now. My girlfriend is gorgeous (literally a model) and has a fair number of male friends. I do not doubt her fidelity at all, but we clash about the intent and mindset of her guy friends. I'm confident enough that the fact that another guy wants to sleep with her doesn't bother me, but to act as if that doesn't exist does, for some odd reason, perhaps because that is fertile ground for missed signals.
Third, the notion of "friend zone" as misogynistic is ridiculous. To put any emphasis on the term or concept of "friend zone" in the context of a hate crime (NOT a sex crime) such as rape is simply not doing one's homework. If anything, it is complementary, in that it accords a level of nuance and sophistication to the female psyche that simply doesn't exist (or at least not to the same degree) in males.
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I think, as some others have said, it can go both ways. It can simply mean "I like her/him but am considered just a friend" but it also ABSOLUTELY IS used in misogynist ways by guys who think they're owed something and are bitter because their feelings aren't returned.
That's bullshit. Girls know exactly what they're doing.
This is an incredibly sexist blanket statement to make. Sure, there are girls (and guys) out there who mess with other people. But you're clearly taking some experience you had (or maybe someone you know) and applying it to every situation. As for the whole "emptying his wallet for a summer" scenario.... you know what I've noticed about situations like that? 9/10 times, you know what the guy doesn't do? Actually make a move or TELL the woman he likes her. But somehow it's all her fault. It's not an easy thing to do, but being a grown-up and putting your feelings out there tends to solve a lot of problems- either she'll say "I'm sorry, I'm not interested" or she'll say "Me too! Let's fuck." I can be quite shy myself, but I don't have much sympathy for people who don't tell a person they like them and then complain that they don't get any or waste time on the person. Personally, I tend to err on the side of "Maybe he doesn't like me" unless I'm given a very clear sign. Hanging out and buying me lunch doesn't count- I do that for friends all the time.
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This is an incredibly sexist blanket statement to make.
I don't see how that's at all sexist. To be honest, that actually really bothers me because the absolute last thing I ever am is sexist. I go to great lengths to not be so. A similar comment could have been made in regards to guys who pretend to like a girl, fuck them a few times, and then bounce. Had this thread been about that, my comment would have read "That's bullshit. Guys know exactly what they're doing". But this thread wasn't about that.
you know what I've noticed about situations like that? 9/10 times, you know what the guy doesn't do? Actually make a move or TELL the woman he likes her. But somehow it's all her fault. It's not an easy thing to do,
Some guys are shy. Some guys can't make moves. Some can't tell the girl he likes her. What pisses me off is that there are plenty of girls that know the guy is struggling and will never bring it up to them. Why can't a girl in that situation ever step in and say off the bat "hey, sorry if I'm thinking too much into this, but do you like me more than a friend? Then, after months of being afraid, the guy finally gets the courage to do something and takes a chance. He tries to kiss her and she pulls away, or he says he likes her and the girl says something like "I'm sorry, but I just see you as a friend". Please. Most (not all) are fully aware the whole time a guy is crushing on them. And I'm not saying it's all the girls fault. If the guy is a pussy, he is partially to blame. But for every time a girl can honestly say "Wow, I had no idea he/you liked me like that, there are probably a hundred that would say "I felt bad and I didn't want to hurt his feelings".
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Third, the notion of "friend zone" as misogynistic is ridiculous. To put any emphasis on the term or concept of "friend zone" in the context of a hate crime (NOT a sex crime) such as rape is simply not doing one's homework. If anything, it is complementary, in that it accords a level of nuance and sophistication to the female psyche that simply doesn't exist (or at least not to the same degree) in males.
What homework?
Not saying this isn't true for you, but have I never heard the phrase used in a complementary way. While it can be used in a very neutral way, to describe a situation (as many people have pointed out), it can also carry a lot of spitefulness. Comments like, 'Girls know exactly what they're doing' don't exactly come across as complementary. Everything I've ever seen from Chino has been nothing but pleasant, and I have absolutely no reason to doubt his character or assume that he is in any way misogynistic. But the above comment still stands, and like I said... it doesn't read it as complementary to me. And he's absolutely not alone.
I think it would be great to get more female perspectives in here, since this is a term typically targeted at them. And even if it wasn't completely serious, I think this is a very valid thing to bring up:
Guys call it the 'friend zone'.......girls call it the 'creep who wants to shag me zone'.....
Because, in my experience, this is true in many cases. I've known many girls that have feel threatened and made to feel guilty for friend zoning. Obviously that needs to be taken with a handful of salt, as it is just my experience. But the fact that it does exist, even if only just in my little universe, makes me think that linking the phrase to misogyny is not at all ridiculous.
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Most (not all) are fully aware the whole time a guy is crushing on them. And I'm not saying it's all the girls fault. If the guy is a pussy, he is partially to blame. But for every time a girl can honestly say "Wow, I had no idea he/you liked me like that, there are probably a hundred that would say "I felt bad and I didn't want to hurt his feelings".
So what's your point here? If a guy is into a girl but doesn't make an advance, the girl's a piece of shit if she doesn't happen to "notice" the guy's into her and initiate a romantic relationship? I like you normally, Chino, but the posts you're making in this thread border on the absurd.
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I think, as some others have said, it can go both ways. It can simply mean "I like her/him but am considered just a friend" but it also ABSOLUTELY IS used in misogynist ways by guys who think they're owed something and are bitter because their feelings aren't returned.
I may be splitting hairs here, but isn't the misogyny (and even then, I think "misogyny" is the wrong word, or at least not the best word) in the belief that they are owed something? That all you have to do is check the various boxes, and Bamm! legs open? It's not just limited to "guys and girls" by a long shot (Marc Maron's entire career falls into this category) but we've lost the notion that sometimes you can do all the right things and have no return on your investment. After my divorce, I met this girl. Pretty face, strong, incredibly smart (Ivy League), good job, fairly open-minded, liked good music... on paper, everything you would ask for. We went out twice and there was just... nothing. No spark, no chemistry. I cannot myself even put a finger on it, but there was nothing. But people - especially where their feelings are concerned - have this incessant need for "closure!" and sometimes "the friend zone" suits that purpose.
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Third, the notion of "friend zone" as misogynistic is ridiculous. To put any emphasis on the term or concept of "friend zone" in the context of a hate crime (NOT a sex crime) such as rape is simply not doing one's homework. If anything, it is complementary, in that it accords a level of nuance and sophistication to the female psyche that simply doesn't exist (or at least not to the same degree) in males.
What homework?
Not saying this isn't true for you, but have I never heard the phrase used in a complementary way. While it can be used in a very neutral way, to describe a situation (as many people have pointed out), it can also carry a lot of spitefulness. Comments like, 'Girls know exactly what they're doing' don't exactly come across as complementary. Everything I've ever seen from Chino has been nothing but pleasant, and I have absolutely no reason to doubt his character or assume that he is in any way misogynistic. But the above comment still stands, and like I said... it doesn't read it as complementary to me. And he's absolutely not alone.
The "homework" being that it is a far cry from "not complimentary" to being misogynistic or worse, indicative of a sexual predator. Why can't it be just what it is: an unfortunate and not welcome descriptor of a situation in which two people see things in different ways? See my above post: in this age of reality TV, where everyone feels entitled (and I mean that word in every sense of it) to have their interview moment in front of the camera (think the couch spots on Big Brother), we're probably ascribing way too much import to what is at essence a poor and misguided way of assuaging one's ego.
I think it would be great to get more female perspectives in here, since this is a term typically targeted at them. And even if it wasn't completely serious, I think this is a very valid thing to bring up:
Guys call it the 'friend zone'.......girls call it the 'creep who wants to shag me zone'.....
Because, in my experience, this is true in many cases. I've known many girls that have feel threatened and made to feel guilty for friend zoning. Obviously that needs to be taken with a handful of salt, as it is just my experience. But the fact that it does exist, even if only just in my little universe, makes me think that linking the phrase to misogyny is not at all ridiculous.
But what am I missing? Making someone who is female feel guilty or threatened for not doing what I want them to do is not itself "misogyny". I personally wouldn't resort to those tactics, but even if I did, it is not evidence at all that I have a deep and systemic hatred of and prejudice against all women. I think Mari in high school was a nutcase for wanting to play hang out with me but not date me, and even if do characterize that as "being stuck in the friend zone", and even if I am bitter at how it turned out, that doesn't mean I hate all women. Just her. ;)
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It comes back to the basic difference between men and women. If a guy asks a girl out, buys her dinner, pays for the movie, in his mind, he is expressing interest. These are the things one does to show a girl that he's interested. Does he really have to sit there at the table over dinner and say, "You know, I really like you. You have awesome tits." (Sorry, got a little carried away there, but you get the point.)
Did the girl actually think that throughout this entire evening that they were just two friends hanging out and that this wasn't a date? The fact that he asked her out, picked her up, offerred to pay for the dinner and the movie, extended all the courtesies... none of that was a clue that this was a date?
I'm not saying that doing these things entitles him to anything. At any point, she can tell him that this is all great, but she's not interested in him romantically. And that's it. He accepts that they're just friends, or if he can't, he can hit the road. But she does need to say that, because yeah, friends go out, pay for each other's meals or whatever, but after the second or third time, she should get the idea that he's thinking about pushing for more than friendship.
Communication is hard. She can say "I think you should know..." just as easily as he can say "By the way, I am interested in banging you, hard." And again, he probably thought his intentions were clear. I'm not trying to put all the responsibilty on her, but if you expect him to act a certain way (make his intentions clear) you can also expect her to act a certain way (read the signs and let him know where he stands).
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Having read too many posts in the "Lonely Hearts" thread, I can definitely confirm that a lot of guys use the term to describe their own inadequacy of letting a girl know of his interest.
Women aren't these clairvoyant Oracles of Delphi. More than one woman I was later together with told me "nope, had no idea you were interested in me until you made the overt move."
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I think this argument stems form the fact that most men like to hang with men and girls with girls for leisure or "Friend time". While most know that is not always the truth, it is the majority. So when a guy wants to hang with a chick, it's for more than friends.
Now to disprove my point. Jackie, The wife and I are dying to knock a few beers down. Next N.E. Trip we will meet up.
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Women aren't these clairvoyant Oracles of Delphi.
You mean solely in this instance?
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I think this argument stems form the fact that most men like to hang with men and girls with girls for leisure or "Friend time". While most know that is not always the truth, it is the majority. So when a guy wants to hang with a chick, it's for more than friends.
Now to disprove my point. Jackie, The wife and I are dying to knock a few beers down. Next N.E. Trip we will meet up.
I want to come!
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I want to come!
Which is apparently the heart of the argument for the detractors of the terminology.
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Goddammit, Coz.
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I think this argument stems form the fact that most men like to hang with men and girls with girls for leisure or "Friend time". While most know that is not always the truth, it is the majority. So when a guy wants to hang with a chick, it's for more than friends.
Now to disprove my point. Jackie, The wife and I are dying to knock a few beers down. Next N.E. Trip we will meet up.
I want to come!
Hell yeah!
I want to come!
Which is apparently the heart of the argument for the detractors of the terminology.
I love you.
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I was friend zoned a couple times back in the day and never blamed anyone but myself. I didn't make it clear what I was interested in. Frustrating that she didn't pick up on it, but I can't blame her that I didn't say anything or go in for a kiss. I know some people use the term to justify their anger with a girl and blame it all on her, but most don't in my experience.
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Goddammit, Coz.
RIAWB!
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Goddammit, Coz.
RIAWB!
I dunno WTF that means.
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It's the tagline to the infamous Cozmo pic you posted in the chat thread.
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So I had no idea what this thread was about, but everytime I click on DTF I see that a different DTFer has responded, King, Coz, Hef, Rumbo, etc. . So I figure I'll troll it and see what it's all about.
Geez, after reading it, I'm glad I'm married!!
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Fun fact: When you're married, the "friend zone" gets renamed into "migraines".
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Goddammit, Coz.
RIAWB!
I dunno WTF that means.
Goddammit, Coz.
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So I had no idea what this thread was about, but everytime I click on DTF I see that a different DTFer has responded, King, Coz, Hef, Rumbo, etc. . So I figure I'll troll it and see what it's all about.
Geez, after reading it, I'm glad I'm married!!
First thing I thought too! :rollin
Most of the girls I was "just friends" with when I was younger were just fuck-buddies. I had a few over the years. In fact, my wife of [almost] 14 years was a fuck-buddy at one time. I'd swing by her apartment, throw it in her, take a shower, then hit the road. Ahh, yes, life was good. ;D
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She still sees you that way, kirk.
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It works both ways. I've hung out with girls where I want to hook up, and made it happen. Usually they were surprised, like they didn't know I wanted to be with them. I've also hung out with some that knew I wanted to get together, some reciprocated, and some didn't.
On the other side, I've had girls hit on me overtly, and I went home with some, and not others. I've also had the opportunity to be surprised when a friend of mine asked me out, and I had no idea she was interested.
The Friend Zone totally exists, but it doesn't have to. All anyone needs to do is let the other person know how you feel, then you'll know how they feel. Friend-Zoning really only happens when people are being jerks, because the concept is that one knows you're interested, knows they don't feel the same way, but still leads you on. That's what the friend zone is about, and it's a terrible thing to do to someone. But it can definitely go both ways.
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Fun fact: When you're married, the "friend zone" gets renamed into "migraines".
"Not tonight". :lol
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it could always be worse (https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=acquaintance%20zoned&defid=6944642)
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I disagree. If you're actually interested, it is better to be met with downright indifference. Friend-zoning means you have that carrot dangling in front of your face for years.
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I think maturity level and experience come into play here too. When I was in high school, I didn't even realize that my best friend - my BEST FRIEND in the entire world, a guy who was like a brother to me for 3 years, wanted more than just my friendship. I didn't discover this until one drunken evening I was crying and lamenting about a boy who I had a huge crush on had done me wrong. I admitted I'd let him in my bed and then the asshole dumped me - for a gal he eventually married! Low and behold, my best friend started sobbing uncontrollably at the thought I'd let this other guy touch me. Seriously, you could've knocked me over with a feather. I had NO IDEA. Anyway, a few months later he moved to another state and though we are still friends, we are no longer close. I always thought that one drunking night was the death of our friendship. It was never the same after that.
Live and learn. I never again took the "friend zone" the same way again. I was always clear from the beginning with men that either I was interested in more than friendship, or that was all it would ever be between us. So there were never misunderstandings and hurt feelings.
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it could always be worse (https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=acquaintance%20zoned&defid=6944642)
It even gets worst than that. There will come a time where that person you liked and known for a long time may not want to think that you exist anymore after a series of events going horribly wrong.
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I have a friend / ex who is a mild tumblr feminist, and she utterly despises this term. I don't recall it ever coming up in conversation, but she posts about it on fb every second Sunday.
I can see both sides of the argument.
Yes, the term is male-centric, you will rarely see girls using it, but isn't it obvious why? Because the way sex works, guys have to do 95% of the 'chasing'. Hundreds of thousands of years of that behaviour, and our brains are probably going to be wired to seeing members of the opposite sex as a prospect much more readily. Is it really a surprise then that guys find themselves, exponentially more often, in situations where they were seeking more than a friendship, and the girl wasn't? And that a term arose for such situations?
Yes, I've seen cases where it's used with bitterness (more than seems warranted by being turned down), that when some guys use it, it carries a sense of 'I put in all this effort, I was owed something", that some guys lean on it when the reality is, they should've said or done something earlier.
And I've also seen times where, in the scenario the use of the term is describing, the girl's behaviour was itself appalling - girls who have exploited friendships with guys because they knew they had feelings for them.
I had a friend some years ago. I had feelings for her, told her I liked her, she wasn't interested, but we decided to stay friends (many of my close friends are girls, not one of those guys who can't do that). In the holiday period which followed, for which I came to find I had no prospects but to sit at home alone or travel alone, she suggested, and eventually insisted, I travel with her to another country, to which, considering I was trying to get over feelings for her, I at first said fuck no, but with time and pressure, reluctantly agreed. A few days into the holiday, she confesses she hasn't saved for it, and asks me for money. It was years before I actually processed it properly, but I really think that was the main, if not the sole reason I was invited on said holiday, and why she practically begged me to come. She had realised after booking that she was short on money, and in light of recent events, I was the perfect friend, with that perfect cocktail of rebutted, reluctant, but still present feelings, and by exploiting those feelings, said holiday could still go ahead without any sacrifice having to be made on her part.
I don't consider what happened there an example of the "friend zone", I had been told no, and was going forward with the friendship under the impression that nothing would happen, and I had to swallow my feelings and deal with it. But considering the fact that she recognised those feelings of mine and intentionally manipulated me and our friendship with them, I think I can understand some of the bitterness some guys are slinging when they talk of situations they describe as the "friend zone".
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That was fucked up of her :(
Did you actually give her money?? I would've been like "Peace, bitch" and enjoyed the country alone.
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I gave her the money, and she paid it back some months later. I did think it was a little bit strange and irresponsible of her at the time, but like I said, I didn't actually fully question what was going on there for years.
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Can I ask a question of the females here, and get an HONEST answer? Are you really telling us that you have NO IDEA how to tell if a guy is interested in you without an overt, verbal exclamation of interest? I'm really finding that hard to believe, and contrary to a lot of human nature. I am the farthest thing from a jealous person, but I'm dealing with something like this a little in a personal relationship. I just find it hard to believe that it's so all or nothing.
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Can I ask a question of the females here, and get an HONEST answer? Are you really telling us that you have NO IDEA how to tell if a guy is interested in you without an overt, verbal exclamation of interest? I'm really finding that hard to believe, and contrary to a lot of human nature. I am the farthest thing from a jealous person, but I'm dealing with something like this a little in a personal relationship. I just find it hard to believe that it's so all or nothing.
I got called a sexist for saying that earlier.
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Not quite the same. It can't be made as a blanket statement. I'm sure plenty do and plenty don't. Plus, the way you said it almost seemed to convey that all women are minor sociopaths that like stringing potential suitors along.
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Almost?
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Can I ask a question of the females here, and get an HONEST answer? Are you really telling us that you have NO IDEA how to tell if a guy is interested in you without an overt, verbal exclamation of interest? I'm really finding that hard to believe, and contrary to a lot of human nature. I am the farthest thing from a jealous person, but I'm dealing with something like this a little in a personal relationship. I just find it hard to believe that it's so all or nothing.
I don't think anyone here is painting the picture quite like that. Actually, I think that's an extremely narrow-minded way of looking at it. What I would say instead is that every situation is different and it shouldn't be the woman's responsibility to figure everything out and bring it all out into the open.
I actually dealt with this situation from the other side fairly recently. This girl kept hinting that she was falling in love with me, and I kept hinting that I didn't feel the same way. Now, I was pretty sure that she really did have some pretty strong feelings about me, so maybe I should have been clearer. Maybe you could accuse me of teasing her or leading her along. But the bottom line is, I felt I was being every bit as clear as she was. She was only giving me hints, so I was only responding with hints. Admittedly, I could have been clearer, but I didn't want to. Why? Because I legitimately valued my friendship with this girl, and I didn't want to make things any more awkward between us than they had to be. What if I was wrong? What if she only wanted to be friends after all, and it turned out her feelings were only my imagination? Can you imagine how embarrassing that would be for me?
And for the record, that has happened to me, too. I once told a girl that I only wanted to be friends, and that I hoped she could settle for that. Turns out she had never thought of me as anything more than a friend in the first place, so when I brought this up, she thought it was creepy and weird, and stopped talking to me. That situation isn't any fun, either, I assure you.
Basically, my point is that its a two way street. It's awkward for everyone involved. It's not fair to pin all the responsibility on one side. Even if a girl does suspect that a guy might be interested in her, that doesn't make it her job to initiate a potentially difficult conversation.
Think of it this way: why should a woman have to make an overt, verbal declaration of lack of interest?
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Reading this thread makes it so much clearer why people don't communicate. :lol
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I agree with Jaffa (again).
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Can I ask a question of the females here, and get an HONEST answer? Are you really telling us that you have NO IDEA how to tell if a guy is interested in you without an overt, verbal exclamation of interest? I'm really finding that hard to believe, and contrary to a lot of human nature. I am the farthest thing from a jealous person, but I'm dealing with something like this a little in a personal relationship. I just find it hard to believe that it's so all or nothing.
I don't think anyone here is painting the picture quite like that. Actually, I think that's an extremely narrow-minded way of looking at it. What I would say instead is that every situation is different and it shouldn't be the woman's responsibility to figure everything out and bring it all out into the open.
Well, I was trying to be nice, and not call her on it, but Harmony said EXACTLY THAT. EXACTLY. And if I recall, I think I asked the LADIES. Hahahahahahaha.
I actually dealt with this situation from the other side fairly recently. This girl kept hinting that she was falling in love with me, and I kept hinting that I didn't feel the same way. Now, I was pretty sure that she really did have some pretty strong feelings about me, so maybe I should have been clearer. Maybe you could accuse me of teasing her or leading her along. But the bottom line is, I felt I was being every bit as clear as she was. She was only giving me hints, so I was only responding with hints. Admittedly, I could have been clearer, but I didn't want to. Why? Because I legitimately valued my friendship with this girl, and I didn't want to make things any more awkward between us than they had to be. What if I was wrong? What if she only wanted to be friends after all, and it turned out her feelings were only my imagination? Can you imagine how embarrassing that would be for me?
And for the record, that has happened to me, too. I once told a girl that I only wanted to be friends, and that I hoped she could settle for that. Turns out she had never thought of me as anything more than a friend in the first place, so when I brought this up, she thought it was creepy and weird, and stopped talking to me. That situation isn't any fun, either, I assure you.
Basically, my point is that its a two way street. It's awkward for everyone involved. It's not fair to pin all the responsibility on one side. Even if a girl does suspect that a guy might be interested in her, that doesn't make it her job to initiate a potentially difficult conversation.
Think of it this way: why should a woman have to make an overt, verbal declaration of lack of interest?
I'm with you 100%, and I'm not one for hints in my personal relationships; people know what I'm about one way or the other if I'm interested. I wasn't always like that, but I've learned that if someone is going to walk away from someone else for sharing their feelings, it wasn't likely a relationship that was going to endure.
I was, again, responding to some very specific posts.
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I feel that people over analyze relationships. You'll never know if you don't ask and the worst is that he or she says no. If there is a rude comment, you'd never want to see a person like that.
Now in relationships it's better to find out this stuff so you can get on with your life or are you both ok where the relationship is.
It's just easier for most to not say anything at all.
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Can I ask a question of the females here, and get an HONEST answer? Are you really telling us that you have NO IDEA how to tell if a guy is interested in you without an overt, verbal exclamation of interest? I'm really finding that hard to believe, and contrary to a lot of human nature. I am the farthest thing from a jealous person, but I'm dealing with something like this a little in a personal relationship. I just find it hard to believe that it's so all or nothing.
I don't think anyone here is painting the picture quite like that. Actually, I think that's an extremely narrow-minded way of looking at it. What I would say instead is that every situation is different and it shouldn't be the woman's responsibility to figure everything out and bring it all out into the open.
Well, I was trying to be nice, and not call her on it, but Harmony said EXACTLY THAT. EXACTLY.
Well, not really. I said this at the start of my post: I think maturity level and experience come into play here too.
I then went on to share a story of a relationship I had in high school. With experience comes knowledge and hindsight.
I agree with Jaffa, every situation is different and not everyone can a) read signals perfectly or b) send signals perfectly.
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Can I ask a question of the females here, and get an HONEST answer? Are you really telling us that you have NO IDEA how to tell if a guy is interested in you without an overt, verbal exclamation of interest? I'm really finding that hard to believe, and contrary to a lot of human nature. I am the farthest thing from a jealous person, but I'm dealing with something like this a little in a personal relationship. I just find it hard to believe that it's so all or nothing.
I don't think anyone here is painting the picture quite like that. Actually, I think that's an extremely narrow-minded way of looking at it. What I would say instead is that every situation is different and it shouldn't be the woman's responsibility to figure everything out and bring it all out into the open.
Well, I was trying to be nice, and not call her on it, but Harmony said EXACTLY THAT. EXACTLY.
Not really. I went back and read her post, and it seems to me that she was talking about one specific situation. You replied as if someone was making a generalized statement, which she wasn't.
At least, that's how you came across to me. I apologize if that wasn't your intent.
Either way, I think it's worth repeating that every situation is different. Sometimes you can't tell how somebody else feels about you.
EDIT: Ninja'd. Oh well.
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Well I apologize for such a poorly worded question. Didn't mean to offend.
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Well I apologize for such a poorly worded question. Didn't mean to offend.
You worded your question just fine.
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Who is offended? :huh:
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Perhaps "offended" isn't the technically correct word, but apparently I at least offended the sensibilities of you and Jaffa. It was a simple question.
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I'm not offended. It didn't really feel good to have something I posted completely misunderstood, singled out, held up to be laughed at, and then completely misrepresented. But those things happen on the internet.
To answer your question - again - based on my experience with my friend back in high school, I have learned to be better at communicating my interest or lack thereof. But back when I had little experience, no I couldn't tell he was interested in me that way. Like I said, he was like a brother to me. Perhaps I was naive. Perhaps he wasn't clear in his intentions. Whatever happened, the overt cues were either not there or missed or a combination of both things.
Like I said before, some people aren't good at reading cues and some people aren't good at giving them. And it can definitely be a problem when BOTH people are being less than clear with their intentions.
And we were both teenagers at the time. I don't know if you have any contact with teenagers, but miscues and miscommunications tend to be rampant in that age group, you know?
Does that help?
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Perhaps "offended" isn't the technically correct word, but apparently I at least offended the sensibilities of you and Jaffa. It was a simple question.
No offense taken on my part. I'm not sure you and I are quite on the same page on this issue, but that's cool. I certainly didn't mean to attack you or anything, s, sorry if it came across that way.
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I'm not offended. It didn't really feel good to have something I posted completely misunderstood, singled out, held up to be laughed at, and then completely misrepresented. But those things happen on the internet.
To answer your question - again - based on my experience with my friend back in high school, I have learned to be better at communicating my interest or lack thereof. But back when I had little experience, no I couldn't tell he was interested in me that way. Like I said, he was like a brother to me. Perhaps I was naive. Perhaps he wasn't clear in his intentions. Whatever happened, the overt cues were either not there or missed or a combination of both things.
Like I said before, some people aren't good at reading cues and some people aren't good at giving them. And it can definitely be a problem when BOTH people are being less than clear with their intentions.
And we were both teenagers at the time. I don't know if you have any contact with teenagers, but miscues and miscommunications tend to be rampant in that age group, you know?
Does that help?
Let's not beat a dead horse, but while I acknowledge the poor wording, and I'll fall on my sword with "misunderstood" and "singled out", it was NEVER my intention to laugh at you. It really was an honest question, because it is actually something I am witnessing now, today, and the parties are not teenagers.
Your response does help, and if I may, when you look back knowing there WERE feelings, is it a case of just there weren't the signs you would expect if there was interest, or was it more of a case of "oh, he bought be coffee. He is considerate" as opposed to "oh, he bought me coffee. He must like me"? I'm watching and in the instance I am seeing, it seems to be a combination of both, honestly, and it depends a fair amount on how one is prone to interpret things.
Anyway, thanks for hanging in there with me. :)
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Your response does help, and if I may, when you look back knowing there WERE feelings, is it a case of just there weren't the signs you would expect if there was interest, or was it more of a case of "oh, he bought be coffee. He is considerate" as opposed to "oh, he bought me coffee. He must like me"? I'm watching and in the instance I am seeing, it seems to be a combination of both, honestly, and it depends a fair amount on how one is prone to interpret things.
It is hard to say because we had spent a lot of time together - years - and there were deep feelings of love and affection in a non-romantic way. At least for me. I think somewhere along the line things changed for him and he didn't tell me that. So I went on operating under the impression that we were one way, platonic and in the friend zone, and he wanted more which I didn't realize. So I guess there weren't signs I would've expected or because I was in the friend zone, or I just completely missed them. I know there were never any overt declarations of romantic feelings or love. And even among our mutual friends, no one ever took me aside and said, "Hey, you do realize that Joe is in love with you, right?"
Anyway, not knowing your particular situation and in the understanding that every person looks at these situations from their own unique perspective, I don't know what else to tell you. Your partner is an adult, so that entails them to be treated with respect for the choices they make in their relationships - both romantic and platonic. Either you trust their judgement about others or you don't. Either you trust they will be faithful to you - if monogomy is your goal - or you don't.