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Dream Theater => Dream Theater => Topic started by: chaossystem on August 25, 2014, 06:15:40 PM
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In a better world this wouldn't have happened...
Throughout the history of both the band and Rock/pop/metal/AOR/progressive/light rock/easy listening and talk radio (bumper music) I think there have been a LOT of missed opportunities! If they had gotten more "mainstream" airplay-especially in the early days-there wouldn't be so many people who have such a dismissive attitude towards the band.
What I MEAN is: If a lot of people in the right places had gotten their ACT together and marketed the band correctly, they could have had MONSTER success, pretty much everywhere! Some of these songs should have been taken to radio stations and the DJs be told "You WILL play this at least ONCE every day during your shift!" Not forever, but hopefully you know what I mean.
To begin with, the lead (first) singles should have been selected more carefully. As an example, "Surrounded" should have been the first single off of "Images." Then release "Pull Me Under" a little while later.
Then, like I said, the radio stations would be forced to play either some of their "singles-length" songs, or some edited versions.
So which songs from each album do YOU think should have been the lead-off singles from each album?
Which songs do you think best fit the formats of the different kinds of radio stations that currently exist?
Or do you prefer to just keep things the way they are?
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Every time I listen to Lie, it baffles me that it didn't become a hit. I mean, the main riff is awesome, it's got the right amount of attitude for mid-90s, the music video, if nothing else, is eye catching (though I think it's all around awesome). It's a damn shame.
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Good example.
"Awake" came out between Metallica albums, and other "thrash" bands were either already popular or becoming so.
I would think a similar style of song would become a hit at that time.
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I don't really know that it would have done much good. DT is still, at heart, a band that's not accessible to most people. Tricking people into checking the band out further via a mainstream single might get a few new fans, but most people are going to not care for it, and go back to the kind of music they like.
And that's fine.
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The high-pitched operatic vocals, the fast solos and (for many) hard-to-follow instrumental sections... DT has achieved more than I ever imagined was in their cards.
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Some of the choice of singles could have been better, but a lot of them do make sense. I mean, I wouldn't change Pull Me Under to being the second single, that might break the universe and DT might not get their big break!
Also, the single choices for Awake kinda make sense too, I don't know what else they'd pick, maybe 6:00 or Innocence F added? But they're both a bit too much on the obscure side to make it big on radio so I think Caught in a Web and Lie made sense. Falling into Infinity had some questionable singles, even though you can almost understand why they used the ones they did (You Not Me/Hollow Years), even though they seem like songs that could be singles, I just don't think the content was strong enough as single material.
Scenes From a Memory had Home and Through Her Eyes, makes sense to me. Home would probably be my first choice for a single too, dunno what else would work out of context from the album. Then after that they pretty much gave up on singles. Train of Thought got As I Am released which is the most logical song from the album IMO. They didn't bother again with Octavarium which is surely a missed opportunity because of all the albums that had single material, at least half of this one could have been used. But at this point I don't think the label was pushing them to break through to anywhere in particular, they were just riding out the end of the recording contract.
Then with Road Runner they got back into it and all of their choices for SC/BL&SL/ADTOE/DT12 have made sense and are normally the shorter more concise songs (Forsaken, Wither, Along For The Ride, The Looking Glass), or the 'heavy rockers' (Constant Motion, A Rite Of Passage, On the Backs of Angels, Build Me Up Break Me Down, The Enemy Inside). My main complain is that the Constant Motion and A Rite of Passage singles were butchered and had solos and bridges stripped right out which is a just ridiculous to me.
What they really should have done, is have a follow up to Pull Me Under that wasn't Another Day. Just after PMU hit the big leagues while they were very much on the radar. My guess is that by 1993 it was too late for Take the Time to save them (irony much?), then again Metropolis, Under a Glass Moon, they are more technical than Pull Me Under so who knows, might have never worked on radio. And by 1994 they'd kinda fallen off the radar. Lie is alright, got some nice riffage in there, but it just isn't on the same scale as Pull Me Under, that song has something bigger and grander about it.
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There may have been some missed opportunities along the way, but to suggest that PMU shouldn't have been the lead single from I&W is bizarre. If that song didn't blow up, it is likely that the vast majority of us wouldn't be DT fans today.
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I'm thinking about a longer response (may or may not get here) but I will take DT as they are (Take Me As I Am). There may have been missed opportunities, I agree with that. But . . . and it's a big one . . . we would not have the DT we have now without what actually happened. I wouldn't change a thing. Image, for a moment, that after PMU they continued with their focus on pop hits and left their prog roots behind . . . what would we have now? I contend that NONE of us would like it. They would have been just another sell-out band with top 40 hits and no depth, feeling or AWESOME MUSIC. But, maybe that's just me. Maybe they could have been the next Metallica and had great mainstream success. To me it wouldn't be the same.
IMHO they are perfect at what they did. It is fun to talk about what could have been, but in the end . . . it worked out perfectly.
But don't let me stop this thread . . . speculate ON!!!!
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There may have been some missed opportunities along the way, but to suggest that PMU shouldn't have been the lead single from I&W is bizarre. If that song didn't blow up, it is likely that the vast majority of us wouldn't be DT fans today.
Yeah, i didn't understand that either (Pull Me Under being the most successful DT single ever).
Not releasing it first would be a missed opportunity.
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All good points...
I guess what I was trying to do was put myself in the minds of the radio programmers (Stupid, I know!) and the people who let themselves be "programmed" by radio and other media.
I was originally going to list all of the songs from each album that might have made good singles, but then it occurred to me that with so many different formats, and the variety in the band's music, I would probably have ended up naming three or four tracks from each album. But what I MOSTLY had in mind was trying to come up with songs that would best represent the band's overall sound while still being SHORT enough to be considered "radio-friendly."
Maybe releasing a couple of songs like "A fortune in Lies" and "Afterlife" from "Dream and Day," and PMU from "Images" and THEN "Surrounded" would have been the way to go.
After that, I think all or most of their albums have songs that would be good for shutting up all of the smart-ass know-it-all's who keep saying shit like "most of their songs are longer than the DJ's shift!"
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But what I MOSTLY had in mind was trying to come up with songs that would best represent the band's overall sound while still being SHORT enough to be considered "radio-friendly."
The problem with your theory is that there are next to no songs that fit both of those criteria.
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I also don't see how them being huge would have made anything better. (other than them making more money)
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I also don't see how them being huge would have made anything better. (other than them making more money)
I think things probably worked out for them in the long run (even with MP's departure etc).
See Queensryche for example. Huge commercial success/3 year tour = huge burnout, change in sound etc...
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In a better world this wouldn't have happened...
Throughout the history of both the band and Rock/pop/metal/AOR/progressive/light rock/easy listening and talk radio (bumper music) I think there have been a LOT of missed opportunities! If they had gotten more "mainstream" airplay-especially in the early days-there wouldn't be so many people who have such a dismissive attitude towards the band.
What I MEAN is: If a lot of people in the right places had gotten their ACT together and marketed the band correctly, they could have had MONSTER success, pretty much everywhere! Some of these songs should have been taken to radio stations and the DJs be told "You WILL play this at least ONCE every day during your shift!" Not forever, but hopefully you know what I mean.
To begin with, the lead (first) singles should have been selected more carefully. As an example, "Surrounded" should have been the first single off of "Images." Then release "Pull Me Under" a little while later.
Then, like I said, the radio stations would be forced to play either some of their "singles-length" songs, or some edited versions.
So which songs from each album do YOU think should have been the lead-off singles from each album?
Which songs do you think best fit the formats of the different kinds of radio stations that currently exist?
Or do you prefer to just keep things the way they are?
Don't agree AT ALL! IMO, the ONLY DT "radio friendly" song in their whole catalog is "I Walk Beside You". They are NOT a radio band....thank GOD!
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Every time I listen to Lie, it baffles me that it didn't become a hit. I mean, the main riff is awesome, it's got the right amount of attitude for mid-90s, the music video, if nothing else, is eye catching (though I think it's all around awesome). It's a damn shame.
Plenty about Lie baffles me, but it's not the lack of becoming a hit. :lol :P
I think everything turned out better this way. A lot of what makes DT so good is that they're a big enough band to have the artistic freedom to do what they want and tour the world, but still relatively small enough to remain very much in touch with their fanbase and be accessible to them.
Their music just isn't a style that could be that popular. It's not about how good they are, it's about what appeals to the general public. DT's music would have to be different to achieve that, which I wouldn't want.
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Plenty about Lie baffles me, but it's not the lack of becoming a hit. :lol :P
I think everything turned out better this way. A lot of what makes DT so good is that they're a big enough band to have the artistic freedom to do what they want and tour the world, but still relatively small enough to remain very much in touch with their fanbase and be accessible to them.
Their music just isn't a style that could be that popular. It's not about how good they are, it's about what appeals to the general public. DT's music would have to be different to achieve that, which I wouldn't want.
You know, I don't care if DT is popular or not, but I really wish they got more respect in the Rock and Metal circles. Nothing makes me happier than telling people that DT is my favorite band, and them saying, "Fucking A!" But more often than not, I hear stuff like, "You know, I only heard one song, but most people I talk to either love them or hate them." And the other day, someone actually asked me if it was a band or the name of a Theater. :facepalm:
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And the other day, someone actually asked me if it was a band or the name of a Theater. :facepalm:
To which your reply should have been "yes". :lol
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And the other day, someone actually asked me if it was a band or the name of a Theater. :facepalm:
To which your reply should have been "yes". :lol
Yes, because that's what I wanna do, confuse the guy, lol.
You know, I wouldn't care if someone asked that kind of a question, but the guy was a damn musician, and a Metal head! That's just not right.
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I don't really know that it would have done much good. DT is still, at heart, a band that's not accessible to most people. Tricking people into checking the band out further via a mainstream single might get a few new fans, but most people are going to not care for it, and go back to the kind of music they like.
And that's fine.
Absolutely agree. Thanks for this post!
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I don't really know that it would have done much good. DT is still, at heart, a band that's not accessible to most people. Tricking people into checking the band out further via a mainstream single might get a few new fans, but most people are going to not care for it, and go back to the kind of music they like.
And that's fine.
This. DT are about as big as they can get within their genre. According to some DT12 listening session report James had said that their record label had offered I Walk Beside You to radio stations in 2005, but it didn't generate any interest.
BTW, I actually like that none of their songs have become such huge hits that they have to be played at every show. :biggrin:
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Well, PMU was like that, until they almost permanently retired the song.
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All good points...
I guess what I was trying to do was put myself in the minds of the radio programmers (Stupid, I know!) and the people who let themselves be "programmed" by radio and other media.
I was originally going to list all of the songs from each album that might have made good singles, but then it occurred to me that with so many different formats, and the variety in the band's music, I would probably have ended up naming three or four tracks from each album. But what I MOSTLY had in mind was trying to come up with songs that would best represent the band's overall sound while still being SHORT enough to be considered "radio-friendly."
Maybe releasing a couple of songs like "A fortune in Lies" and "Afterlife" from "Dream and Day," and PMU from "Images" and THEN "Surrounded" would have been the way to go.
After that, I think all or most of their albums have songs that would be good for shutting up all of the smart-ass know-it-all's who keep saying shit like "most of their songs are longer than the DJ's shift!"
I dont know for definite but I think that these were at least issued to radio :-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sq5fcvSFMXo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3D-Uc4PGqI
I used to have these CDs but sold them a long time ago on Ebay!
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Damn it, from the thread title, I thought this was for an all DT online station... :tdwn
I'm baffled that TSCO wasn't a hit. It has an upbeat bounce to it, emotion, killer solo...
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But what I MOSTLY had in mind was trying to come up with songs that would best represent the band's overall sound while still being SHORT enough to be considered "radio-friendly."
The problem with your theory is that there are next to no songs that fit both of those criteria.
I didn't say that they would be songs that would PERFECTLY represent the band's sound.
I was thinking mostly of songs that would be played on ROCK stations, like "6:00," "Innocence Faded," "Burning My Soul," "Just Let Me Breathe," "Strange Deja Vu," (MAYBE "The Spirit Carries On,") "About to Crash," "The Test That Stumped Them All," "As I Am," "Forsaken" "The Looking Glass" and "Along for the Ride," as well as the songs from the first two albums that I mentioned earlier.
Also, as I was thinking about this within the last couple of days, I remembered the fact that there are some AOR stations that will play some longer rock/metal tunes such as Metallica's "Master of Puppets" and Queensryche's "Eyes of a Stranger" unedited.
So maybe some of the 7 or 8 minute songs from "Dream and Day," or songs like "Take the Time," Under a Glass Moon," "Lie," "New Millennium," "Fatal Tragedy," "Constant Motion," "A Rite of Passage," and probably many others could be put into rotation, as well.
Of course I realize that a little bit of editing would have to be done to some these songs in order for them to make sense in the "radio singles" format, but I don't think it would RUIN the songs.
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Im fine with how the pieces landed for DT in the end. The people behind promoting the band dropped the ball when the first album was released and Im not so sure that changed at all until Road Runner. I think the problem probably lies within the fact that DT dont have a single sound to market. They are too diverse and someone promoting them could think one way and someone else could think another. Just look at this forum and there is so much diversity in what is the best album or best songs. The amount of success the band has had is more than enough to satisfy how much I feel they should be loved. The music isnt for everyone even if there were "better" singles picked. I am glad they are where they are today.
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I don't disagree with you, "Cram."
But I started this thread to deal with all the frustration I've had over the years that has been caused by people saying REALLY STUPID things like "they suck 'coz they dunt git plaiyed on thu raydeeo!" "Thay wuz jest uh wun-het wunder!" "theer nwat veree pwopulur!" (Spelling errors intended.)
Also wanted to say that you're right in that I didn't name songs like "lifting Shadows off a Dream" or "I walk Beside You," among others because I don't CARE for those songs, wouldn't have wanted them to be singles, and they probably have put me OFF of the band. So you're right in saying that not everyone would pick the same singles.
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But I started this thread to deal with all the frustration I've had over the years that has been caused by people saying REALLY STUPID things like "they suck 'coz they dunt git plaiyed on thu raydeeo!" "Thay wuz jest uh wun-het wunder!" "theer nwat veree pwopulur!" (Spelling errors intended.)
Yea, but I and I am sure most if not all of the people on this forum, have been dealing with people saying stupid comments like that with regards to DT or any band we like. It sucks people can be close minded, but that is life.
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Exactly! I would be perfectly content if they (the detractors) would just say things like "I don't care for that kind of music," or "they don't play them on the same station where I hear my favorite songs by Beyonce, Kyle Minogue, Katy Perry, etc, a HUNDRED TIMES every day," "I've heard enough of their music to know that they'll never do anything without me thinking that it sucks!" Instead, they seem to speak from a position of IGNORANCE, because they've never actually given the band or it's music a CHANCE!
Like you said:
THAT'S LIFE.
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I started this thread to deal with all the frustration I've had over the years that has been caused by people saying REALLY STUPID things like "they suck 'coz they dunt git plaiyed on thu raydeeo!" "Thay wuz jest uh wun-het wunder!" "theer nwat veree pwopulur!" (Spelling errors intended.)
Your profile says you are 51. Who do you talk to that says things like that?
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Yea, but I and I am sure most if not all of the people on this forum, have been dealing with people saying stupid comments like that with regards to DT or any band we like. It sucks people can be close minded, but that is life.
Which is a irony since lots of people into prog are close minded as well.
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I'm not sure about that..I'd like to think people who listen to prog are generally more open minded.
:neverusethis:
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Who do you talk to that says things like that?
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I was referring to things I've heard over the past several years.
I was also using the exaggerated wording to illustrate how ridiculous some of the ignorant statements that people will come up with can be.
So when are YOU going to answer MY question about the "dramatic departure" thread???
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So when are YOU going to answer MY question about the "dramatic departure" thread???
Probably when you follow the instructions I have given you twice about it.
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They were doomed as soon as Nirvana came out. They've been very successful, all things considered, so don't worry about it.
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Well, internet radio has been available for some time now and you get the long songs too. Too bad it wasn't available back in the early 90's. DT could have definitely benefited from it. But, it was never really their intention to become a radio band anyway even though PMU (edited) had great radio and video success.
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@chaossystem: This thread is not the place to discuss mod decisions relating to a completely separate thread. I have already given you an explanation via PM.
Second, you have been told by several people that your posts become very difficult to read when you attempt to quote and do not do it properly. Posts that do not properly use the quote feature and end up being a mess of broken quotes will simply be deleted from this point forward.
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@chaossystem: This thread is not the place to discuss mod decisions relating to a completely separate thread. I have already given you an explanation via PM.
Second, you have been told by several people that your posts become very difficult to read when you attempt to quote and do not do it properly. Posts that do not properly use the quote feature and end up being a mess of broken quotes will simply be deleted from this point forward.
Is it just me, or do the admins get involved in every post chaossystem makes?!
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@chaossystem: This thread is not the place to discuss mod decisions relating to a completely separate thread. I have already given you an explanation via PM.
Understood, Bosk.
But I posted the message to Hef BEFORE I saw that post from you and responded to it.
I"m still working on the "quote" thing.
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They were doomed as soon as Nirvana came out.
Any band, really. DT were riding the very tail end of the 80's excesses, and full engaged in it, with the operatic singer and the blistering solos. They adjusted their sound over time to be more relevant, particularly Awake, but it was always a bit too late. I always said that James was their most career-hindering choice. Even though it was a dick move to do so publicly, even MP said do.
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But what were they supposed to do? Change singers every album because of what was going on around them? What MP said was very poor. James actually gave I&W a certain accessability. He has a nice clean voice, and he's great on Awake.
Even in the I&W days, I remember thinking that the "singer" in this band is going to be in a tough position.
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Nirvana's Nevermind was released in 1991, a year before IAW. I seriously think that DT did a bad choice with choosing an operatic tenor when the writing was clearly on the wall.
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I guess I see your point, but I still don't know what would've been a better solution. They've really done fine with him, basically leading the movement. I think he's a vastly underrated part of their story and success.
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I guess I see your point, but I still don't know what would've been a better solution. They've really done fine with him, basically leading the movement. I think he's a vastly underrated part of their story and success.
I agree with this and the band at that time had tried out a lot of singers so he clearly clicked with the band at that moment so its hard to say that he wasnt the best choice for the band. To say he wasnt the best choice given the music that was trending at that time, now that is definitely questionable.
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I personally have to disagree. In the grand scheme of things, as much as James is these days the voice of DT, they could have been far more accessible by combining the prog metal elements with a more understated singer, one who dominates by his timbre, and the actual notes (and how they interact with the chords).
As an example, one of the greatest prog singers is Peter Gabriel. He has virtually no range to speak of, but it was rather his timbre and his choice of notes that made him such a great singer. Or take David Bowie, same thing.
I always felt that DT bred a certain shallowness in their fans, as somewhat evidenced by this whole "at what point in JLB' s career was he able to hit an F#".
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Peter Gabriel?
I always felt that DT bred a certain shallowness in their fans, as somewhat evidenced by this whole "at what point in JLB' s career was he able to hit an F#".
Well, this is what I was kind of referring to then I said the whoever was their singer was in a tough position. As a "musician's" band, they would still need a singer to be relevant. That was clear in 1993.
Rumbo, I'm still confused as to who or what kind of singer would've been a better choice. I hope you're not implying Gabriel would be.
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To say he wasnt the best choice given the music that was trending at that time, now that is definitely questionable.
And Rumbo, what Cram said might be true, and I think it's what you're saying, but it even makes their choice more bolder, IMO.
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Peter Gabriel?
I always felt that DT bred a certain shallowness in their fans, as somewhat evidenced by this whole "at what point in JLB' s career was he able to hit an F#".
Well, this is what I was kind of referring to then I said the whoever was their singer was in a tough position. As a "musician's" band, they would still need a singer to be relevant. That was clear in 1993.
Rumbo, I'm still confused as to who or what kind of singer would've been a better choice. I hope you're not implying Gabriel would be.
I was using Peter Gabriel as the extreme example of where timbre and thoughtful melody construction overcame more tangible stats such as range. If I had to name a singer, I would (just as MP did) name Mike Patton.
But seriously, I don't think I'm the only one who liked DT *despite* the singing. It took me a long time to get used to JLB, and even to this day, I find his vocals to be more of an afterthought. I remember listening to the BCSL instrumental tracks the first time and thinking, "these are complete songs. They just repeated certain sections to leave space for a singer".
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But Mike Patton would've been an afterthought too.
Personally, there's nothing about Mike Patton that sticks out talent wise that puts him even remotely on par with the musicianship in the band. He's more lively on stage though, I'll give you that.
My wife can't stand James! :lol Any singer will have their fans and detractors alike.
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Maybe this is why I disagree with this, I love JLB. I&W is as close to perfect of an album I have heard. Its hard for me to think that JLB is not the best for the band. The previous demos with different singers and with Charlie dont cut it for me.
However, I do know people who do not like DT specifically because of the singing. So I can see why someone would think the band would be more successful with someone else.
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But Mike Patton would've been an afterthought too.
Personally, there's nothing about Mike Patton that sticks out talent wise that puts him even remotely on par with the musicianship in the band. He's more lively on stage though, I'll give you that.
My wife can't stand James! :lol Any singer will have their fans and detractors alike.
what the FUCK
have you heard Mike Patton sing? Granted he wouldn't fit with DT, but the man's skill is insane.
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But Mike Patton would've been an afterthought too.
Personally, there's nothing about Mike Patton that sticks out talent wise that puts him even remotely on par with the musicianship in the band. He's more lively on stage though, I'll give you that.
I disagree. Mike Patton certainly has an artistic vision, and I yet have to hear a project he's been in where he just showed up and sang the lines he was told. Which is what James has done for most of his career.
To put it intentionally extreme, DT is an instrumental band that has a permanent hired gun as a singer to increase their appeal.
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But Mike Patton would've been an afterthought too.
Personally, there's nothing about Mike Patton that sticks out talent wise that puts him even remotely on par with the musicianship in the band.
Fixed :P
But, seriously, i can't understand why someone would think this after hearing some of his work with Mr. Bungle or his other countless projects (granted that i ain't THAT acquainted with his work but, goddamn if he's not amazing on pretty much everything i've ever heard from him).
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But Mike Patton would've been an afterthought too.
Personally, there's nothing about Mike Patton that sticks out talent wise that puts him even remotely on par with the musicianship in the band. He's more lively on stage though, I'll give you that.
My wife can't stand James! :lol Any singer will have their fans and detractors alike.
what the FUCK
have you heard Mike Patton sing? Granted he wouldn't fit with DT, but the man's skill is insane.
Well, I've heard one FNM album, and have seen FNM once and Mr. Bungle twice.
To put it intentionally extreme, DT is an instrumental band that has a permanent hired gun as a singer to increase their appeal.
That's not extreme at all. That's exactly what happened and I felt that way in 1993.
Hiring Patton would've been interesting in that he really would've needed his own space and that may have not jived with the band's vision.
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Definitely not, in Lifting Shadows it seemed pretty clear the band did not want a singer who was going to take all the attention.
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But Mike Patton would've been an afterthought too.
Personally, there's nothing about Mike Patton that sticks out talent wise that puts him even remotely on par with the musicianship in the band.
Fixed :P
But, seriously, i can't understand why someone would think this after hearing some of his work with Mr. Bungle or his other countless projects (granted that i ain't THAT acquainted with his work but, goddamn if he's not amazing on pretty much everything i've ever heard from him).
You're obviously a Patton fan and that's cool. I don't dislike him or anything. In fact, I found him very charismatic. But honestly, Faith No More did nothing for me, and Mr. Bungle was a hot mess of noise. A great show in a club setting, but definitely not my thing musically.
Would Dream Theater be where they are had Mike Patton joined them in 1991 instead of James? Hard to say, but it's hard to argue with their success with James.
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I can't stand Mike Patton. The guy is overrated as fuck.
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To put it intentionally extreme, DT is an instrumental band that has a permanent hired gun as a singer to increase their appeal.
Of course by putting it that extreme, you're grossly embellishing the actual situation.
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But Mike Patton would've been an afterthought too.
Personally, there's nothing about Mike Patton that sticks out talent wise that puts him even remotely on par with the musicianship in the band.
Fixed :P
But, seriously, i can't understand why someone would think this after hearing some of his work with Mr. Bungle or his other countless projects (granted that i ain't THAT acquainted with his work but, goddamn if he's not amazing on pretty much everything i've ever heard from him).
Maybe you should look at it from TAC age group. We grew up with singers like James in the 80's and we loved it. I personally was all over the place and while I like Mike Patton a ton, he would have not fit with what DT was doing at the time. Now maybe there was someone else that could fit better. Hell, TAC listened to Pantera and his styling were different for the time.
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I don't think anyone's saying that he would have been a good fit for DT, but saying there's "nothing that sticks out talent wise" is honestly pretty hard to comprehend.
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To put it intentionally extreme, DT is an instrumental band that has a permanent hired gun as a singer to increase their appeal.
Of course by putting it that extreme, you're grossly embellishing the actual situation.
In some cases it's true though. Like on albums like BC&SL where the band writes the music and then James comes in to do the vocals later. There are lots of times where the vocals seem like a clear afterthought in DT.
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That's the 80's fan in him. James style of singing was very prevalent in the 80's and it's what TAC likes. I think early on I thought Mike Patton was an OK singer but damn he turned out to be a monster of a singer. Taste man, tastes.
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In some cases it's true though. Like on albums like BC&SL where the band writes the music and then James comes in to do the vocals later. There are lots of times where the vocals seem like a clear afterthought in DT.
Well, I'm not gonna comment on BC&SL, because it's one of my least favorite of their albums. Second least favorite, actually.
But to say that JLB is a "permanent hired gun" is just plain disrespectful. He's the front man for the band, not just in terms of singing the songs, but being the face and the voice of the band. And sure, there was a time when Portnoy just wanted to do ALL the speaking on behalf of the band, at interviews and such, but hey, if you asked me, I would've said that wasn't right anyway.
As soon as Portnoy was gone, JLB really stepped up as the frontman for the band though. He's been doing more interviews, and informing everyone about what's going on in the band.
And again, albums like BCSL aside, most of DT's discography showcase JLB's vocal capabilities really well. His range has always been amazing, and even in hard times, when his voice was at its worst, he still had insane vocal capabilities, and for a band which prides itself on being an all around fantastic group of musicians, masters of their craft, JLB easily fits into that category, and is an integral part of what makes Dream Theater complete.
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You're obviously a Patton fan and that's cool.
No, i ain't, i already said i don't know that much of his work (he has tons of projects).
But honestly, Faith No More did nothing for me, and Mr. Bungle was a hot mess of noise. A great show in a club setting, but definitely not my thing musically.
That's fine but disliking both bands don't make him talentless i guess.
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Thanks King! Fogeys! :metal
But honestly, Faith No More did nothing for me, and Mr. Bungle was a hot mess of noise. A great show in a club setting, but definitely not my thing musically.
That's fine but disliking both bands don't make him talentless i guess.
No it doesn't. But what I said was :
Personally, there's nothing about Mike Patton that sticks out talent wise that puts him even remotely on par with the musicianship in the band.
James had a ton of talent that I believe put him on a level with the musicianship in the band. I have never felt that Mike Patton was on that level. Now I freely admit that I haven't heard a thing he's done after 1993/94. He could have turned himself into Pavorrati for all I know. But based on what I heard up to that point, I did not feel that he was as great as singer as MP was a drummer, or as JP was a guitarist, or as JM was a bassist, etc.. I did feel that way about James though, right out of the gate.
And that's really all I'm saying.
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Tim, I do have to say Patton is a chameleon who can do different styles of music and is a talented singer for sure. I personally don't think it would fit DT. He's got game that's for sure.
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Tim, I do have to say Patton is a chameleon who can do different styles of music and is a talented singer for sure. I personally don't think it would fit DT. He's got game that's for sure.
Yeah. He definitely seemed creative enough. And charismatic too. I haven't followed him. I'm a music first guy, and there's nothing he's been involved with musically that has interested me. I'm not saying he doesn't have talent. But in , it just didn't jump out at me the he would be as good of singer as the musical talent in the band.
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ITT we learn not to disrespect Mike Patton
Come on.
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ITT we learn not to disrespect Mike Patton
Come on.
Apparently! :lol
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:lol
Hef FTW of course.
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ITT we learn not to disrespect Mike Patton
Come on.
Who the fuck does he think he is, Egypt?
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ITT we learn not to disrespect Mike Patton
Come on.
Who the fuck does he think he is, Egypt?
DO NOT
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James had a ton of talent that I believe put him on a level with the musicianship in the band. I have never felt that Mike Patton was on that level.
Kinda hard to quantify, for me. It's kinda like comparing, say, Steve Vai to John Petrucci. Both phenominal players, both virtuosos, but very different styles that are difficult to compare.
(there are probably MUCH better examples out there, but that is the first I could think of)
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But to say that JLB is a "permanent hired gun" is just plain disrespectful. He's the front man for the band, not just in terms of singing the songs, but being the face and the voice of the band. And sure, there was a time when Portnoy just wanted to do ALL the speaking on behalf of the band, at interviews and such, but hey, if you asked me, I would've said that wasn't right anyway.
As soon as Portnoy was gone, JLB really stepped up as the frontman for the band though. He's been doing more interviews, and informing everyone about what's going on in the band.
I think it's convenient to revise history by mapping the *new* post-ADTOE band dynamics all the way back through the history of the band. Before MP quit, like it or not, James was being flown in when the whole music was written and recorded, and he would lay down the vocal lines he was told. He barely gave any band interviews, and even live, the moment he had nothing to sing, he disappeared off stage.
I can see your argument about the *new* DT, but with old DT, James was indeed a permanent hired gun, or at least treated that way. Case in point, MP threatened to kick him out unless he got his shit together (according to Lifting Shadows). You don't just single-handedly kick out a fully equal band member. Clearly JLB was viewed and treated as a second-tier band member.
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But to say that JLB is a "permanent hired gun" is just plain disrespectful. He's the front man for the band, not just in terms of singing the songs, but being the face and the voice of the band. And sure, there was a time when Portnoy just wanted to do ALL the speaking on behalf of the band, at interviews and such, but hey, if you asked me, I would've said that wasn't right anyway.
As soon as Portnoy was gone, JLB really stepped up as the frontman for the band though. He's been doing more interviews, and informing everyone about what's going on in the band.
I think it's convenient to revise history by mapping the *new* post-ADTOE band dynamics all the way back through the history of the band. Before MP quit, like it or not, James was being flown in when the whole music was written and recorded, and he would lay down the vocal lines he was told. He barely gave any band interviews, and even live, the moment he had nothing to sing, he disappeared off stage.
I can see your argument about the *new* DT, but with old DT, James was indeed a permanent hired gun, or at least treated that way. Case in point, MP threatened to kick him out unless he got his shit together (according to Lifting Shadows). You don't just single-handedly kick out a fully equal band member. Clearly JLB was viewed and treated as a second-tier band member.
I didnt get that far in the book before I lost it (im so damned pissed about that) but what did the rest of the band think? We all know the MP and JLB relationship wasnt the greatest and maybe a lot can be put onto that in terms of being treated like a hired gun?
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But to say that JLB is a "permanent hired gun" is just plain disrespectful. He's the front man for the band, not just in terms of singing the songs, but being the face and the voice of the band. And sure, there was a time when Portnoy just wanted to do ALL the speaking on behalf of the band, at interviews and such, but hey, if you asked me, I would've said that wasn't right anyway.
As soon as Portnoy was gone, JLB really stepped up as the frontman for the band though. He's been doing more interviews, and informing everyone about what's going on in the band.
I think it's convenient to revise history by mapping the *new* post-ADTOE band dynamics all the way back through the history of the band. Before MP quit, like it or not, James was being flown in when the whole music was written and recorded, and he would lay down the vocal lines he was told. He barely gave any band interviews, and even live, the moment he had nothing to sing, he disappeared off stage.
I can see your argument about the *new* DT, but with old DT, James was indeed a permanent hired gun, or at least treated that way. Case in point, MP threatened to kick him out unless he got his shit together (according to Lifting Shadows). You don't just single-handedly kick out a fully equal band member. Clearly JLB was viewed and treated as a second-tier band member.
There is certainly an element of truth in what you are saying, and it is an element that a lot of fans overlook or are not aware of. I am paraphrasing and do not recall the exact wording, but when Charlie was brought in, they told him that basically his job was mostly just to handle the vocal department (apparently, just singing and writing some vocal melodies and lyrics), and the rest of the band handled the music side. When James was eventually brought in, he was given a similar, but somewhat watered-down version of that same message. That is true. But beyond that, you are way oversimplifying to the point where your main point is not really accurate (not to mention some specific factual inaccuracies in what you posted).
Things changed with respect to James throughout his time in the band. His role and his public presence varied considerably, and I would not say it was ever really a constant. During the late I&W and early Awake period, he was giving a LOT of interviews and acting as the public face of the band. And his presence in studio also varied considerably. Remember that when he was given the "ultimatum" in the Six Degrees period, it was something the band had decided, and was actually based on two things: (1) they felt he had stopped trying to work on keeping his vocals sharp, and (2) they wanted him to be present and participate in the studio.
Look, I get what you are saying. And like I said, there is an element of it that is dead on that a lot of people overlook. But you are extrapolating way too much that is not accurate.
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But to say that JLB is a "permanent hired gun" is just plain disrespectful. He's the front man for the band, not just in terms of singing the songs, but being the face and the voice of the band. And sure, there was a time when Portnoy just wanted to do ALL the speaking on behalf of the band, at interviews and such, but hey, if you asked me, I would've said that wasn't right anyway.
As soon as Portnoy was gone, JLB really stepped up as the frontman for the band though. He's been doing more interviews, and informing everyone about what's going on in the band.
I think it's convenient to revise history by mapping the *new* post-ADTOE band dynamics all the way back through the history of the band. Before MP quit, like it or not, James was being flown in when the whole music was written and recorded, and he would lay down the vocal lines he was told. He barely gave any band interviews, and even live, the moment he had nothing to sing, he disappeared off stage.
I can see your argument about the *new* DT, but with old DT, James was indeed a permanent hired gun, or at least treated that way. Case in point, MP threatened to kick him out unless he got his shit together (according to Lifting Shadows). You don't just single-handedly kick out a fully equal band member. Clearly JLB was viewed and treated as a second-tier band member.
Remember that when he was given the "ultimatum" in the Six Degrees period, it was something the band had decided, and was actually based on two things: (1) they felt he had stopped trying to work on keeping his vocals sharp, and (2) they wanted him to be present and participate in the studio.
Look, I get what you are saying. And like I said, there is an element of it that is dead on that a lot of people overlook. But you are extrapolating way too much that is not accurate.
I haven't heard this before, please, if you have the time, would you mind sorta... telling me what this "ultimatum" was and why they were going to kick him out :huh: :huh: :huh:
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I remember connecting the dots through the time period and gave my theory on the MP/JLB thing to someone close to the band and they said to wait till the book.
It was clear just following the band I thought that there was friction.
Relationships grow and regress over time and that obviously happened in DT. not sure if how James was treated had anything to do with HIM per se. It's just I think the band has an idea of where they want their music to go. I think it wouldn't have mattered who their singer was. It probably wasn't going to be any different.
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But to say that JLB is a "permanent hired gun" is just plain disrespectful. He's the front man for the band, not just in terms of singing the songs, but being the face and the voice of the band. And sure, there was a time when Portnoy just wanted to do ALL the speaking on behalf of the band, at interviews and such, but hey, if you asked me, I would've said that wasn't right anyway.
As soon as Portnoy was gone, JLB really stepped up as the frontman for the band though. He's been doing more interviews, and informing everyone about what's going on in the band.
I think it's convenient to revise history by mapping the *new* post-ADTOE band dynamics all the way back through the history of the band. Before MP quit, like it or not, James was being flown in when the whole music was written and recorded, and he would lay down the vocal lines he was told. He barely gave any band interviews, and even live, the moment he had nothing to sing, he disappeared off stage.
I can see your argument about the *new* DT, but with old DT, James was indeed a permanent hired gun, or at least treated that way. Case in point, MP threatened to kick him out unless he got his shit together (according to Lifting Shadows). You don't just single-handedly kick out a fully equal band member. Clearly JLB was viewed and treated as a second-tier band member.
Remember that when he was given the "ultimatum" in the Six Degrees period, it was something the band had decided, and was actually based on two things: (1) they felt he had stopped trying to work on keeping his vocals sharp, and (2) they wanted him to be present and participate in the studio.
Look, I get what you are saying. And like I said, there is an element of it that is dead on that a lot of people overlook. But you are extrapolating way too much that is not accurate.
I haven't heard this before, please, if you have the time, would you mind sorta... telling me what this "ultimatum" was and why they were going to kick him out :huh: :huh: :huh:
Nothing complicated, at least as it is recorded in the book. It was basically "shape up or ship out," meaning that they wanted him to work on his singing and to be present and participate in the studio.
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Getting back to the original topic:
I agree with anyone who says that releasing a song like "Another Day" or "Surrounded" as their first single might have caused the record company people to say something like "do more songs like that!"
Which in turn MIGHT have caused the band to cave to that kind of pressure, which would have SUCKED for a multitude of reasons. It might even have killed their career.
On the OTHER hand, a lot of bands didn't have a major hit until their fourth or fifth album. Such as Kansas with "Carry On wayward Son" (4th album) Yes with "Roundabout" (4th album) Metallica with "Enter Sandman" (5th album), and many others.
The point being that I think it's possible that they could have done like I said earlier, and started releasing singles starting with "Dream and Day," and even if "Pull Me Under" was something like their 4th or 5th single, it STILL might have had the same impact that it did. It's also possible that some of the later songs could have done the same, or have been even bigger hits.
But as has already been stated many times, a lot of that was the fault of the record company executives, promoters, radio station people, and not the band itself.
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But to say that JLB is a "permanent hired gun" is just plain disrespectful. He's the front man for the band, not just in terms of singing the songs, but being the face and the voice of the band. And sure, there was a time when Portnoy just wanted to do ALL the speaking on behalf of the band, at interviews and such, but hey, if you asked me, I would've said that wasn't right anyway.
As soon as Portnoy was gone, JLB really stepped up as the frontman for the band though. He's been doing more interviews, and informing everyone about what's going on in the band.
I think it's convenient to revise history by mapping the *new* post-ADTOE band dynamics all the way back through the history of the band. Before MP quit, like it or not, James was being flown in when the whole music was written and recorded, and he would lay down the vocal lines he was told. He barely gave any band interviews, and even live, the moment he had nothing to sing, he disappeared off stage.
I can see your argument about the *new* DT, but with old DT, James was indeed a permanent hired gun, or at least treated that way. Case in point, MP threatened to kick him out unless he got his shit together (according to Lifting Shadows). You don't just single-handedly kick out a fully equal band member. Clearly JLB was viewed and treated as a second-tier band member.
There is certainly an element of truth in what you are saying, and it is an element that a lot of fans overlook or are not aware of. I am paraphrasing and do not recall the exact wording, but when Charlie was brought in, they told him that basically his job was mostly just to handle the vocal department (apparently, just singing and writing some vocal melodies and lyrics), and the rest of the band handled the music side. When James was eventually brought in, he was given a similar, but somewhat watered-down version of that same message. That is true. But beyond that, you are way oversimplifying to the point where your main point is not really accurate (not to mention some specific factual inaccuracies in what you posted).
Things changed with respect to James throughout his time in the band. His role and his public presence varied considerably, and I would not say it was ever really a constant. During the late I&W and early Awake period, he was giving a LOT of interviews and acting as the public face of the band. And his presence in studio also varied considerably. Remember that when he was given the "ultimatum" in the Six Degrees period, it was something the band had decided, and was actually based on two things: (1) they felt he had stopped trying to work on keeping his vocals sharp, and (2) they wanted him to be present and participate in the studio.
Look, I get what you are saying. And like I said, there is an element of it that is dead on that a lot of people overlook. But you are extrapolating way too much that is not accurate.
There was definitely a shift with the ultimatum, but even still, JLB's role seemed pretty second tier compared to the others. I think it's especially apparent now that we're seeing him really act as the face of the band with the last two albums. He has the confidence and charisma of a true frontman in the interviews and he has a much more commanding stage presence than he did even 4 years ago when I saw them open for Maiden. Only now do I see him on the same level as the other members and not a second tier member like before.
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I think M. Portnoy had a lot to do with what you guys are talking about. If you watch the documentaries that come with the concert DVDs, you'll notice that John P. would actually INCLUDE James in going over the arrangements for some of the songs that they are about to perform, while Portnoy seemed to have a more DISMISSIVE attitude towards James's role in the presentation of the song.
Also if you watch the "making of" DVD that comes with "Systematic Chaos" Portnoy seems to be the only one trying to "fine tune" every sound that comes out of James while he's recording his vocals.
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Bosk, while I certainly do agree that relationships evolved and changed over time, I think James never approached "full membership" status up until ADTOE. Definitely from the time on where MP asserted himself as the band leader, was James pushed aside and relegated to the second-tier status.
And I'm very happy that James is now doing a lot of interviews. MP's interviews were (and to this day are) kinda grating to me.
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I don't think JLB was any less than a full member, I thought his involvement, or lack thereof, was mostly by choice. There's only so much he could have contributed to the bulk of the writing process, because aside from the tambourine, he doesn't really play an instrument. Like the rest of the band, he's stepped up since MP's departure because it was necessary.
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I said the day MP left, James would be the biggest beneficiary.
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Getting back to the original topic:
I agree with anyone who says that releasing a song like "Another Day" or "Surrounded" as their first single might have caused the record company people to say something like "do more songs like that!"
Which in turn MIGHT have caused the band to cave to that kind of pressure, which would have SUCKED for a multitude of reasons. It might even have killed their career.
On the OTHER hand, a lot of bands didn't have a major hit until their fourth or fifth album. Such as Kansas with "Carry On wayward Son" (4th album) Yes with "Roundabout" (4th album) Metallica with "Enter Sandman" (5th album), and many others.
The point being that I think it's possible that they could have done like I said earlier, and started releasing singles starting with "Dream and Day," and even if "Pull Me Under" was something like their 4th or 5th single, it STILL might have had the same impact that it did. It's also possible that some of the later songs could have done the same, or have been even bigger hits.
But as has already been stated many times, a lot of that was the fault of the record company executives, promoters, radio station people, and not the band itself.
In 1993 both Dream Theater and Stone Temple Pilots (both on Warner-Elektra-Atlantic) were both doing the slow climb up the Billboard album chart. At a certain point (somewhere in the middle I forget exactly where) Stone Temple Pilots reached critical mass and climbed higher faster while Dream Theater did the slow slide back into obscurity. That tells me the record label chose to back one band and not the other. This was also around the time that "Another Day" was released as a single. Radio airplay still meant a little something back then and that song was made for radio and how it became ignored is a mystery. Maybe in the long run it was better that it was, but that song should have exploded at radio.
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That theory seems to forget that DT was playing in an essentially dying genre, whereas STP was part of the new and exciting grunge genre.
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Record labels cock blocked any subgenre of rock that wasn't grunge at that time, and prog especially would never have gotten a push, especially if they were judging by the style of IaW. Personally I think DT still relatively did very well with Awake, all things considered with the changes in the music business at the time.