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Dream Theater => Dream Theater => Topic started by: npiazza91 on June 19, 2014, 04:17:10 PM
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Hey guys, I'm new to this forum. Been looking for a while, but I finally decided to create an account here. I'm eager to make a top 50, but it's so much harder for DT than it is for Megadeth or Maiden (my other favorite bands). I got into DT a few years ago when I bought Images and Words on a whim. Since then I've collected every album except for FII and WD&DU. I've listened to both. FII isn't bad, but probably in my bottom half and WD&DU is probably my least favorite. It's just not the same without Labrie and sounds a bit like something Genesis would do. Just not my cup of tea.
Anyway, here's how I rank the albums. Just a little taste of what's to come when I make my top 50 list. Obviously, I'm more of a metal guy, but I love the emotion put into DT's songs. If it sounds like I'm being a bit harsh on them, I'm not. I love every album except for the bottom few. I can't compare anything to DT, because their music is so magical to me. Every album holds something special in my heart (well, almost every album ;))
1. Black Clouds and Silver Linings (not the most consistent but a dark, beautiful album that imo hasn't been matched.)
2. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence (about on par w/ #1, but this one has a lighter tone.)
3. Awake (starts off kind of weak, but second half is some of the best work they have ever done)
4. Scenes From a Memory (consistently good, but almost overly so. not many "amazing" tracks on here)
5. Train of Thought (very dark and gritty, most of it works, but not all)
6. Octavarium (some of it is too "commercialized" for me, but a few amazing tracks make this album much better)
7. A Dramatic Turn of Events (definitely a grower. some very good stuff on here, but some filler as well. still growing on me)
8. Images and Words (the album that made me fall in love with DT, but it's a bit overrated, only about half of which I love)
9. Dream Theater (still growing on me, but some songs I really like on here. it still hasn't sank in yet, but it seems ok so far)
10. Systematic Chaos (a few great songs on here, but most of it is hit or miss. not much really stands out for me)
11. Falling into Infinity (like I said, I still have to keep listening to this one. I won't make my top 50 until this one sinks in)
12. When Dream and Day Unite (not my kind of music. I do like Fortune in Lies, though, but that's about it)
Well there it is. The new album and FII still have to sink in a little more for me, but besides that, I'll start making my list, rearranging things as necessary. The list is so hard to make, because most DT songs have their own kind of magic that can't really be compared to each other. I was wondering, why not much love for BC&SL? I constantly see people bashing on it, or putting it in their bottom albums.
Nice to meet you all DT fans!
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I love BC&SL, not my favorite, but definitely in my top half of DT albums. You are not alone in loving in (maybe one of the few who things it is their best though). :metal
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Not in the same league as the last 2 albums for me but I like it.
For me ANTR and TCOT are legendary tracks, while TSF and TBOT are just average.
Overall its bottom tier DT for me, BUT I love all DT so bottom tier is not that big a slight.
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I definitely have love for BC&SL!
Unfortunately, my opinion can't be counted because I'm way too biased.
I literally love every single DT song.
Sure, I have my favorites, but I love them all ... Even WDaDU; JLB is the best but Dominici is great too.
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I do enjoy BC&SL. It's very nostalgic for me although I'm not a big fan of most of the songs. Count is by far the best song, closely followed by Nightmare. AROP, TBOT and TSF are rather weak songs however. TBOT has some cool moments but I do get bored rather quick, plus I really hate the bass sound on this record. Nasty, muddy and distorted to fuck when it didn't need to be.
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There were things about BC&SL that I liked and loved, and I saw it as a step-up from their previous album, but there were parts I was a bit luke-warm to at first. I did, however, listen to it a LOT when it was new. I think I spun it more than 8VM and SC when they were new. As a progger who loves epics and long songs, the whole album intrigued me with its longer tracks and the closing epic, which was unlike their previous ones.
I still spin it with fondness every now and then, just as much as any of their RoadRunner albums. Actually, I probably spin it more than either SDOIT, TOT or 8VM as far as whole albums go these days.
-Marc.
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As I think it's been discussed here before, I like portions of BC&SL but it's a hard album to spin often because there are weak spots and I often find myself listening to the first song and then skipping all the way to the last.
I don't find it to be a bad album I just find it to be a more inconsistently good album than most of the rest of the bands catalog.
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Black Clouds for me is only beaten by Train Of Thought for the worst Dream Theater album. They're both just pretty damn boring in my opinion and I rarely ever listen to them. Also, we can never be friends for putting Falling Into Infinity and When Dream And Day Unite at the bottom. :P
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Black Clouds for me is only beaten by Train Of Thought for the worst Dream Theater album. They're both just pretty damn boring in my opinion and I rarely ever listen to them. Also, we can never be friends for putting Falling Into Infinity and When Dream And Day Unite at the bottom. :P
As far as ToT goes, I really like the dark energy in some of the songs. If you look past the "heavyness" of it, the song writing is actually really good. The only reason why FII is at the bottom is because I haven't listened to it enough. It'll probably go up a bit though. WD&DU though...agree to disagree haha
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Not that much into BC&SL anymore, but when it came out it really made me enthousiastic. SC ultimately felt like a step back but BC&SL showed a lot of promise, almost like a return to form. I still think it's better than ADTOE and DT12.
That said, the songs on it do rock, but there are definitely some song arrangement problem, as in songs not flowing very well, weird transitions. The MP rap in ANTR is a good example of that. Apart from that, ANTR and TCOT contain the DT magic as far as I'm concerned.
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It kicks ass.
Except bebot.
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Can't say I've ever seen anyone rank BCSL as their favorite. Mediocre (by DT standards) at best.
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I guess I'll do mine too... Sorry to say, I must disagree about Black Clouds!
-Images and Words (wut can I say, this is easily the best)
-Six Degrees (it's a bit long, but still the best "modern" DT)
-Awake (stalls a bit toward the end, but it's still great other than the really heavy parts)
-A Dramatic Turn (really surprised by how good this record is - I just wish the lyrics were better and that it was better sounding)
-Falling into Infinty (not great, but there are some of the highest highs in the discography on this one)
-Octavarium (see above)
-Scenes (gotta be honest, this one is a bit overrated. Some great stuff but I just can't handle the lyrics on most of the songs. Still "good".)
-Train of Thought (fun, but I liked it better when it was *the* heavy record, instead of one of many)
-Systematic Chaos (patchy but fun)
-Dream Theater (not much here interests me, feels like a band resting on their laurels. I wouldn't call it bad but it's missing a spark the others have)
-When Dream and Day Unite (singer is beyond bad, lyrics are band, but at least there is a fire here. It stills has "the spark")
-Black Clouds (and here, the lyrics are bad, and the band just sound tired)
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It kicks ass.
Except bebot.
The Bebot is one of the reasons why it kicks ass. :P
But yeah, I love BC&SL. It might almost be my number 1 album but it's probably tied with like 4 others. :lol
Also, to the original poster. I kind of like BC&SL for the same reasons I like WDADU. Fairly long songs with interesting arragementments that take you a while to dig into. Due to the nature of these songs there's normally something new to notice or discover with each listen. If there's anything that's a grower it's WDADU. Once I got over the fact that it wasn't James, I spun it a lot more often and eventually realised it's genius. ;)
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I love BC&SL, it is dark and beautiful.....trumps SC imo.
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It kicks ass.
Except bebot.
The Bebot is one of the reasons why it kicks ass. :P
But yeah, I love BC&SL. It might almost be my number 1 album but it's probably tied with like 4 others. :lol
Also, to the original poster. I kind of like BC&SL for the same reasons I like WDADU. Fairly long songs with interesting arragementments that take you a while to dig into. Due to the nature of these songs there's normally something new to notice or discover with each listen. If there's anything that's a grower it's WDADU. Once I got over the fact that it wasn't James, I spun it a lot more often and eventually realised it's genius. ;)
This is probably why I vastly prefer it to DTXII. Black Clouds is like a nacho plate. Overly complex, some parts have too much cheese, others too much meat, and you really have to dig to find the good stuff. But dayum the good stuff is good. DTXII is simple, like an apple. Tasty and healthy but BORING.
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I like BC&SL, but I think the main problem here is the song length, and the fact that many of the songs are longer than I think they need to be, making it very rare for me to listen to them, even though I enjoy parts of every song. The Best of Times is the best example - the outro solo is amazing, but I almost never want to sit through the ten minutes preceding them to get to it, because they are nowhere near as awesome as that solo. Same with A Rite of Passage - I actually like the solo section and the choruses a lot, but the rest of the song drags it down. Really, the only songs that I enjoy front-to-back on that album are Wither and The Count of Tuscany, and they are the only ones that I play with any regularity.
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It kicks ass.
Except bebot.
The Bebot is one of the reasons why it kicks ass. :P
But yeah, I love BC&SL. It might almost be my number 1 album but it's probably tied with like 4 others. :lol
Also, to the original poster. I kind of like BC&SL for the same reasons I like WDADU. Fairly long songs with interesting arragementments that take you a while to dig into. Due to the nature of these songs there's normally something new to notice or discover with each listen. If there's anything that's a grower it's WDADU. Once I got over the fact that it wasn't James, I spun it a lot more often and eventually realised it's genius. ;)
This is probably why I vastly prefer it to DTXII. Black Clouds is like a nacho plate. Overly complex, some parts have too much cheese, others too much meat, and you really have to dig to find the good stuff. But dayum the good stuff is good. DTXII is simple, like an apple. Tasty and healthy but BORING.
Exactly! The new album is good but I feel like there's nothing much too it except for IT, which isn't even that good when compared to Octavarium. I'll desribe what I really like in this album when I do my top 50, but there's just so much meat here and, yes, while some of the sections can get boring, the album, when taken as a whole, is much better than looking at each song separately. Kind of like Six Degrees (the song) for me. I love long songs, when done right, and this album does it right.
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For me, BC&SL was a completely un-likeable album. There wan't one good song on it, however it had the dubious distinction of having one of the worst songs I've ever head in my life - TCOT. A true comedy - horrible lyrics, repetitive, boring music and if it wasn't bad enough to be funny it would make me cry. Anyway, with ADTOE I breathed a sigh of relief, as it seemed they found their way back again!
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it had the dubious distinction of having one of the worst songs I've ever head in my life - TCOT. A true comedy - horrible lyrics, repetitive, boring music and if it wasn't bad enough to be funny it would make me cry.
:lol
To the OP:
You'll probably be pleasantly surprised/amused by the general forum consensus regarding BC&SL. Most put in in the lower-tier of DT albums, myself included. And I like the album. I might not call it "great", but there are moments where DT compose some of the best stuff they've ever done here and there (ex: the a good portion of TCOT and the ending solo in TBOT). But overall, it feels very weak by DT standards and radically inconsistent.
But you know what? Who gives a fuck. It's important to not let forum consensus alter your own opinion on the album. Listen to it, make you own opinion of it, and love it if you feel that way about it. You just might get a couple of strange looks is all. :lol
Regarding the new album, honestly it's the best they've done since ToT. They really outdid themselves. It seems the forum consensus on it has changed from "it's meh" on release, to "it's great!", then back to "it's meh". Oh well. :hat It's oddly enough the most interesting to listen to of their most recent releases, ADTOE coming somewhat close.
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I loved BCASL when it came out, and I still like it, but it's one of my least favourites. I enjoyed it a hell of a lot more than the albums that came after it though.
TCOT is musically one of the best things they've ever done, and I don't mind the quirky lyrics either! It's just the vocal delivery that brings it down a bit for me, but musically it has so many high points.
I still love ANTR, I've always liked AROP and Wither too. It's only TBOT and TSF that I never much loved.
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Out of all DT albums, FII took the longest time to grow on me by far. I actually remember having Trial of Tears on my skiplist for a while and now it's in my top 10. That album is definitely a worthy investment, keep at it.
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I dont care for the "poor" lyrics to ACOT. The music is beautiful and the lyrics while not great, dont ruin the song for me in anyway.
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I guess I like BC&SL pretty much. TCOT (even though I think it's VERY overrated), TSF (which is my fav of that album), AROP and ANTR are very badass songs. They contain some of the best harsh melodies in their whole discography and feels darker and heavier than TOT to me. TBOT and Wither give you some time to relax which I think is lovely and TBOT has one of the best solos JP has ever made in his life. So, I guess the album is more than worth listening to. It can be adorable from time to time.
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I guess I'll do mine too... Sorry to say, I must disagree about Black Clouds!
-Images and Words (wut can I say, this is easily the best)
-Six Degrees (it's a bit long, but still the best "modern" DT)
-Awake (stalls a bit toward the end, but it's still great other than the really heavy parts)
-A Dramatic Turn (really surprised by how good this record is - I just wish the lyrics were better and that it was better sounding)
-Falling into Infinty (not great, but there are some of the highest highs in the discography on this one)
-Octavarium (see above)
-Scenes (gotta be honest, this one is a bit overrated. Some great stuff but I just can't handle the lyrics on most of the songs. Still "good".)
-Train of Thought (fun, but I liked it better when it was *the* heavy record, instead of one of many)
-Systematic Chaos (patchy but fun)
-Dream Theater (not much here interests me, feels like a band resting on their laurels. I wouldn't call it bad but it's missing a spark the others have)
-When Dream and Day Unite (singer is beyond bad, lyrics are band, but at least there is a fire here. It stills has "the spark")
-Black Clouds (and here, the lyrics are bad, and the band just sound tired)
Dream Theater is a band resting on there laurels?
I think its the band not doing the same old thing and changing things up by crafting a new sound. I think BC&SL was stale in that respect. The new album sounds fresh and different and that's a good thing.
That's how Rush has stayed relevant for 40 years. Just sayin...
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I really like it. One of my favorite JR albums.
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It's one of my very favorites, actually. Nothing beats Images and Words for me, but it's right up in the upper echelon where I also keep Awake, Octavarium and A Dramatic Turn of Events. It's probably my #2 or #3.
What I like about Black Clouds & Silver Linings—and this is why I will never get the accusation that DT was getting stale or writing music on autopilot at this time—is that it really strives to create an atmosphere across the whole album that is distinct from that of other Dream Theater albums. People fawn on Awake for being atmospheric, and it undoubtedly is, but BCSL is just as atmospheric, if not more. The great thing about it is that the title of the album is the perfect descriptor for the atmosphere, too. The whole "dark-but-not-irredeemably-dark" vibe is actually rather gorgeous and pervades the album, especially A Nightmare to Remember, A Rite of Passage and The Count of Tuscany (which is not to say that the other songs don't adhere to this). And the album is of incredible quality. There is not a bad song on here. The Best of Times is my least favorite because it feels a little too long, but it's still excellent, and I don't know what could or should be removed from it anyway. All the rest of the songs are criminally underrated themselves. The Count of Tuscany is one of the very best songs Dream Theater ever wrote—I only rank it behind Breaking All Illusions and Octavarium. A Nightmare to Remember is also easily top ten material. The Shattered Fortress is my second favorite Twelve-Step Suite song behind This Dying Soul. Wither is one of the band's best ballads, and A Rite of Passage is actually an excellent song, in contrast to its popular perception.
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BC&SL is overall very good!! And yeah, Wither is the bands best ballad along with Space Dye Vest..
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TCOT and TSF are great, and Wither is OK, but the rest can sit on a tack.
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Apart from the debut, its the only DT album that I bought and then sold again... A very weak album to my ears.
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Black Clouds is one of their better albums, musically. I'd put it somewhere in the top half of their catalog.
With that said, I think they got a bit lost in the woods in terms of both music and lyrics for the last few albums with Portnoy, and BC&SL, despite being a musically solid album, suffers from some of the least interesting lyrics the band have ever produced. My hunch is that Mike was pressuring Dream Theater in a direction that only he, himself really wanted to take it in. As a result we got things like "Inspiration Corner" and albums about "Dark Master" and OCD. We also got gems like "Day after day, and night after night...etc...etc....rawrrrrrrrr" and who can forget "mah bruthah!!"
:lol
So, anyway, welcome to the forum.
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Black Clouds is one of their better albums, musically. I'd put it somewhere in the top half of their catalog.
With that said, I think they got a bit lost in the woods in terms of both music and lyrics for the last few albums with Portnoy, and BC&SL, despite being a musically solid album, suffers from some of the least interesting lyrics the band have ever produced. My hunch is that Mike was pressuring Dream Theater in a direction that only he, himself really wanted to take it in. As a result we got things like "Inspiration Corner" and albums about "Dark Master" and OCD. We also got gems like "Day after day, and night after night...etc...etc....rawrrrrrrrr" and who can forget "mah bruthah!!"
:lol
So, anyway, welcome to the forum.
Great post! :lol :tup
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Too inconsistent to be in the upper echelon. I rarely listen to this.
I listen to the covers disc more than the main album.
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I personally love BC&SL, though it may have something to do with it being my first DT album. I think AROP is the weakest track; though its choruses are some of the best DT choruses IMO, the verses aren't too good and the solo section doesn't really interest me. I absolutely love the rest of the tracks though. The guitar solo in TBOT is my favourite JP guitar solo ever.
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Once again, I feel the need to remind people of the forum rules. You are all free to like or to dislike whatever you choose. But criticism must be contructive. Posts like the following are unacceptable:
For me, BC&SL was a completely un-likeable album. There wan't one good song on it, however it had the dubious distinction of having one of the worst songs I've ever head in my life - TCOT. A true comedy - horrible lyrics, repetitive, boring music and if it wasn't bad enough to be funny it would make me cry. Anyway, with ADTOE I breathed a sigh of relief, as it seemed they found their way back again!
To quote the forum rules: "12. Insults or senseless bashing of the current or former band members of Dream Theater and/or their music will not be tolerated. Honest, open critique is always allowed, provided it does not cross the line and become bashing, belittling, etc."
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On topic, I like the album, but rank it pretty low in the DT discography. It is pretty much the only DT album where I find myself wanting to listen to particular songs, but never find myself really wanting to listen to the album.
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My hunch is that Mike was pressuring Dream Theater in a direction that only he, himself really wanted to take it in. As a result we got things like "Inspiration Corner" and albums about "Dark Master" and OCD. We also got gems like "Day after day, and night after night...etc...etc....rawrrrrrrrr" and who can forget "mah bruthah!!"
Inspiration corner which dates back at least as far as JR's tenure (not including the one-off)? And those bad lyrics written by John Petrucci?
And trust me, the RAWR is a step up from the original part.
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What I like about Black Clouds & Silver Linings—and this is why I will never get the accusation that DT was getting stale or writing music on autopilot at this time—is that it really strives to create an atmosphere across the whole album that is distinct from that of other Dream Theater albums. People fawn on Awake for being atmospheric, and it undoubtedly is, but BCSL is just as atmospheric, if not more. The great thing about it is that the title of the album is the perfect descriptor for the atmosphere, too. The whole "dark-but-not-irredeemably-dark" vibe is actually rather gorgeous and pervades the album, especially A Nightmare to Remember, A Rite of Passage and The Count of Tuscany (which is not to say that the other songs don't adhere to this). And the album is of incredible quality. There is not a bad song on here. The Best of Times is my least favorite because it feels a little too long, but it's still excellent, and I don't know what could or should be removed from it anyway. All the rest of the songs are criminally underrated themselves. The Count of Tuscany is one of the very best songs Dream Theater ever wrote—I only rank it behind Breaking All Illusions and Octavarium. A Nightmare to Remember is also easily top ten material. The Shattered Fortress is my second favorite Twelve-Step Suite song behind This Dying Soul. Wither is one of the band's best ballads, and A Rite of Passage is actually an excellent song, in contrast to its popular perception.
Couldn't agree more!
I personally love BC&SL, though it may have something to do with it being my first DT album.
Yeah... Me too. I have no doubt that's something to do with it for me aswell. But.. I still can't comprehend how so many avid fans practically despise it in some cases :xbones
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interesting album rankings.
I like BCSL. I can't say I LOVE it, but I like it. ANTR is great, I don't really care for AROP, Wither is pretty good as far as ballads go, TBOT is pretty decent, and TCOT is a masterpiece. That is all my opinion of course.
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I enjoy the album, but it's ranked 11th. It seems to me the songs are waaay longer than they need to be to convey their stories about scary castle tour guides and free masonry . While there isn't a song I really dislike, TCOT and TSF are the only ones I listen to.
In general, I think almost every song overstays it's welcome, and I think it's quite cheesy. I'm not a big fan of fantasy-ish subject matter anyways, so that doesn't help Its case with me. I still think it has good melodies and riffs, and I just don't care for how they album is put together as a whole.
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Its a very solid release. Its not a go to DT disc for me, but I enjoy it once in awhile.
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BC&SL was my first full-length DT album, but unfortunately time hasn't been kind to it. I rank it above Octavarium and SC, but I think it's like a combination of all the things that were wrong with DT before MP left:
-Overlong songs
Both ANTR and TBOT would've benefited a lot from being trimmed down. Ironically though, I have no problem with TCOT and it's the one song I keep coming back to on this album.
-Too much MP vocals
You already know which part I'm talking about :lol Shouting words like "KINDNESS!" in TSF is pretty silly as well.
-Subpar lyrics and vocal lines
I think everything about the quality of the lyrics has been said already, but a lot of the time they also convey a totally different mood from the music ("everyone survived, roar!"). Some songs have pretty uninteresting vocal melodies (especially AROP), and it's clear that an actual singer wasn't involved in writing them, as it feels like the vocals were added as an afterthought and a necessary evil.
-Forced heaviness
I am a metal fan who listens to way heavier music than DT, and I like a lot of DT's metal songs, but on this album the heaviness feels kind of contrived and unnatural compared to TOT and songs like The Glass Prison and The Mirror. It's the more melodic stuff like TCOT, Wither, Beautiful Agony and parts of TBOT where DT get to shine here.
-Lack of band feeling
JM is doubling JP most of the time, a lot of Jordan's keyboard work is buried in the mix and James is singing vocal melodies and lyrics that he had no input on - all of this gives an "another day in the office" feeling.
-Some of DT's worst solos and instrumental sections
AROP - 'nuff said.
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My hunch is that Mike was pressuring Dream Theater in a direction that only he, himself really wanted to take it in. As a result we got things like "Inspiration Corner" and albums about "Dark Master" and OCD. We also got gems like "Day after day, and night after night...etc...etc....rawrrrrrrrr" and who can forget "mah bruthah!!"
Inspiration corner which dates back at least as far as JR's tenure (not including the one-off)? And those bad lyrics written by John Petrucci?
And trust me, the RAWR is a step up from the original part.
I was just about to point some of that stuff out.
People criticize the fantasy lyrics, but all of those were written by JP. Forsaken, TDEN, ITPOE, and then the lyrics of ANTR, TCOT, and AROP that people criticize too. TDEN and ITPOE's lyrics were "inspired" by other literature. All of MP's lyrics on those two albums were quite personal to him, actually. There's no evidence that JP's lyrical direction had anything to do with MP's influence.
Most of this musical "inspiration corner" criticism on recent albums is baseless, and mostly based on a 10 second studio snippet from over a decade ago, and people just plain not enjoying DT's changing musical direction.
In fact, I recall that inspiration corner clip being from the recording of SDOIT, which I think is their freshest, greatest album, and I find their two most recent albums (especially ADTOE) to be their most bland and stale, so I'd be all for some "inspiration".
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I love the album. A Nightmare to remember, The Best of Times and The Count of Touscany to me are DT at his best.
How I miss DT sounding that good in studio.
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Once again, I feel the need to remind people of the forum rules. You are all free to like or to dislike whatever you choose. But criticism must be contructive. Posts like the following are unacceptable:
*snip*
To quote the forum rules: "12. Insults or senseless bashing of the current or former band members of Dream Theater and/or their music will not be tolerated. Honest, open critique is always allowed, provided it does not cross the line and become bashing, belittling, etc."
:orly:
On topic, I like the album, but rank it pretty low in the DT discography. It is pretty much the only DT album where I find myself wanting to listen to particular songs, but never find myself really wanting to listen to the album.
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I reach for it way more than SC and WDADU. Hell even TOT.
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I reach for it way more than SC and WDADU. Hell even TOT.
No you didn't. *snap snap*
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*Shakes hip & finger* Oh yes I did.
Of late yeah. Can't explain it.
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Can't explain it.
Me neither.
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Don't you have something to do like monitoring some youngsters or something?! :lol
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(https://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i238/hefdaddy42/DTF/suddenlyjames_zps512a0c49.gif)
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In fact, I recall that inspiration corner clip being from the recording of SDOIT
Are you sure you're not thinking of SFAM, when MP made that video from Beartracks for Italy? In that video he interrupted Petrucci recording acoustic tracks for Finally Free to show inspiration corner.
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I guess I'll do mine too... Sorry to say, I must disagree about Black Clouds!
-Images and Words (wut can I say, this is easily the best)
-Six Degrees (it's a bit long, but still the best "modern" DT)
-Awake (stalls a bit toward the end, but it's still great other than the really heavy parts)
-A Dramatic Turn (really surprised by how good this record is - I just wish the lyrics were better and that it was better sounding)
-Falling into Infinty (not great, but there are some of the highest highs in the discography on this one)
-Octavarium (see above)
-Scenes (gotta be honest, this one is a bit overrated. Some great stuff but I just can't handle the lyrics on most of the songs. Still "good".)
-Train of Thought (fun, but I liked it better when it was *the* heavy record, instead of one of many)
-Systematic Chaos (patchy but fun)
-Dream Theater (not much here interests me, feels like a band resting on their laurels. I wouldn't call it bad but it's missing a spark the others have)
-When Dream and Day Unite (singer is beyond bad, lyrics are band, but at least there is a fire here. It stills has "the spark")
-Black Clouds (and here, the lyrics are bad, and the band just sound tired)
Dream Theater is a band resting on there laurels?
I think its the band not doing the same old thing and changing things up by crafting a new sound. I think BC&SL was stale in that respect. The new album sounds fresh and different and that's a good thing.
That's how Rush has stayed relevant for 40 years. Just sayin...
'
Well sir, I am not a Rush fan, so no sympathy there!
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In fact, I recall that inspiration corner clip being from the recording of SDOIT
Are you sure you're not thinking of SFAM, when MP made that video from Beartracks for Italy? In that video he interrupted Petrucci recording acoustic tracks for Finally Free to show inspiration corner.
I very well might be thinking of that video. I rank SFAM just as highly as SDOIT, and that's even older than SDOIT, so either way!
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Well Skeever, thats your problem then :lol
But seriously, Rush is a good example. They always sound like Rush but they tinker with their writing styles and their sound. You last that long you always lose a certain amount of your fanbase that wants every album to sound like 2112.
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Personally, I like the album. I probably wouldn't rate it quite as highly as I did when it first came out, but I'd still probably put it in the upper half of the catalog.
The one thing that I just do not understand is all the hate for ARoP. The Bebot solo is rather annoying and a major misstep, IMO, but the rest of the song is good - especially the catchy chorus.
My hunch is that Mike was pressuring Dream Theater in a direction that only he, himself really wanted to take it in. As a result we got things like "Inspiration Corner" and albums about "Dark Master" and OCD. We also got gems like "Day after day, and night after night...etc...etc....rawrrrrrrrr" and who can forget "mah bruthah!!"
It's possible that MP was pushing DT in a specific direction, but I'll argue the point that if the rest of the band was not into it, then they would've pushed back, just as they did in September of 2010.
Inspiration corner is something that they always had from day one - it's only that people became familiar with it when they mentioned it around the time of the writing for SFaM and SDoIT. I don't know what all the albums in inspiration corner were for WDaDU, but I do know that Queensryche's Operation: Mindcrime was one of them. And IIRC, JP brought in Rush's Hold Your Fire during the Awake sessions to reference some of Alex's clean guitar sounds. Oddly enough, BCaSL is the first album DT did where they specifically did NOT have an inspiration corner.
Lyrically, don't blame MP for most of it. Yeah, he wrote Constant Motion (about OCD), but as Grizz mentioned, you can thank JP for the "Dark Master", "Day after day" and "mah bruthah" lyrics.
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I like this album quite a bit, but I, too, do not listen to it very much.
Lyrically, I think it is arguably their least best album to date. As much as I like The Count of Tuscany, the lyrics are just a bit too silly for me; The Shattered Fortress sounds like he basically recycled many of the lyrics from the previous 12-step songs; A Nightmare to Remember has the obvious corny lyrics; the sentiment expressed in The Best of Times is nice, the execution was not very good; etc. Granted, DT's lyrics took a nosedive for a while in the mid to late 00s, but this album is where they hit rock bottom.
Having said all of that, I still like five of the six songs enough to enjoy the hell out of them whenever I hear them. A Rite of Passage is kind of a throwaway song; it's not bad, but I usually lose interest by the time the first chorus rolls around.
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I think it's their last album with decent all around production.
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I guess I'll do mine too... Sorry to say, I must disagree about Black Clouds!
-Images and Words (wut can I say, this is easily the best)
-Six Degrees (it's a bit long, but still the best "modern" DT)
-Awake (stalls a bit toward the end, but it's still great other than the really heavy parts)
-A Dramatic Turn (really surprised by how good this record is - I just wish the lyrics were better and that it was better sounding)
-Falling into Infinty (not great, but there are some of the highest highs in the discography on this one)
-Octavarium (see above)
-Scenes (gotta be honest, this one is a bit overrated. Some great stuff but I just can't handle the lyrics on most of the songs. Still "good".)
-Train of Thought (fun, but I liked it better when it was *the* heavy record, instead of one of many)
-Systematic Chaos (patchy but fun)
-Dream Theater (not much here interests me, feels like a band resting on their laurels. I wouldn't call it bad but it's missing a spark the others have)
-When Dream and Day Unite (singer is beyond bad, lyrics are band, but at least there is a fire here. It stills has "the spark")
-Black Clouds (and here, the lyrics are bad, and the band just sound tired)
Dream Theater is a band resting on there laurels?
I think its the band not doing the same old thing and changing things up by crafting a new sound. I think BC&SL was stale in that respect. The new album sounds fresh and different and that's a good thing.
That's how Rush has stayed relevant for 40 years. Just sayin...
'
Well sir, I am not a Rush fan, so no sympathy there!
I can tell from this thread and the Mike Portnoy thread we are destined to be great pals! :biggrin:
Its cool, we don't have to agree, just respect. :tup
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A Nightmare to Remember and The Count of Tuscany are still amazing.
I really got into The Shattered Fortress live, earlier this year.
I don't care much about the rest of the songs.
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I think it's their last album with decent all around production.
I think the latest album just has better crafted songs, imo. BUT...I never met a DT album I didn't like so...
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At one time DT was my favorite band on Earth and I pretty much refused to listen to anything else.
My interest began to wane a little bit with SC, but BC&SL is what put the nail in the coffin. I didn't listen to the band for almost a year after its release.
Now all that being said, ADTOE really rekindled my love for the band and the accompanying concert I would consider to be the best show I have ever seen in my life.
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Black Clouds is my least favorite DT album by miles. It's a collection of good to great parts and very few good to great songs, the lyrics are pretty dreadful. so even a song that is uniformly brilliant musically like TCOT falls flat, and I don't think I've played it since ADTOE came out. Actually like the covers disc better.
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Black Clouds for me is very inconsistent. That album has 6 songs:
- 2 are masterpieces (A Nightmare To Remember and The Count Of Tuscany)
- 2 are great songs (Wither and The Best Of Times)
- 1 is a total rip-off from the other albums, but it's good nontheless (The Shattered Fortress)
and then there's A Rite Of Passage which IMO might be one of the worst song they wrote. But it's alright.
I basically like just half the album , not good for DT standards.
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In fact, I recall that inspiration corner clip being from the recording of SDOIT
Are you sure you're not thinking of SFAM, when MP made that video from Beartracks for Italy? In that video he interrupted Petrucci recording acoustic tracks for Finally Free to show inspiration corner.
I suppose I could be remembering it incorrectly, but I seem to recall "inspiration corner" most prominently around the time of Octavarium, which I consider among the weakest albums they've released to date.
And obviously I don't hold MP responsible for JP's lyrics. I'm simply not very fond of the last few albums with Portnoy and really believe they got back on track without his infuence.
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they would've pushed back, just as they did in September of 2010.
I agree with much of this post but I don't recall this from any account.
Also, just for clarity I think that the RORO part was Mike's idea as a replacement for JLB's unfitting slow vocals that JP originally called for.
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BC&SL is not a bad record, but it's not a stand-out for DT either. These days I usually stick to the classics: I&W, Awake, SFAM, SDOIT, DT12, and the great individual tracks from other albums.
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BCSL was the best late-MP album to me. I quite like TCOT, despite the silly lyrics. It has a really nice ebb and flow to it.
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In fact, I recall that inspiration corner clip being from the recording of SDOIT
Are you sure you're not thinking of SFAM, when MP made that video from Beartracks for Italy? In that video he interrupted Petrucci recording acoustic tracks for Finally Free to show inspiration corner.
I suppose I could be remembering it incorrectly, but I seem to recall "inspiration corner" most prominently around the time of Octavarium, which I consider among the weakest albums they've released to date.
And obviously I don't hold MP responsible for JP's lyrics. I'm simply not very fond of the last few albums with Portnoy and really believe they got back on track without his infuence.
Yeah I remember watching a studio clip from the SDOIT days and MP had a bunch of CDs lined up and among them was none other than Tool's Aenema.
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They've been wearing their influences on their sleeves all of their career, with Rush and Queensryche at the start of their discography, and even through the Awake/ACOS-era:
The band did a distorted version of the song at some shows, which some fans have called "Caught in Alice's Nine Inch Tool Garden" for it's influences of Alice in Chains, Nine Inch Nails, Tool and Soundgarden. The distorted version became the basis of many musical themes for New Millenium. The two songs were eventually melded into Caught in a New Millenium.
I think they've had an "inspiration corner" for a LONG time, but were never really vocal about it until the SFAM/SDOIT-days. I'm sure there were some major influences during FII considering how different that album sounds compared to their first three.
-Marc.
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The band did a distorted version of the song at some shows, which some fans have called "Caught in Alice's Nine Inch Tool Garden" for it's influences of Alice in Chains, Nine Inch Nails, Tool and Soundgarden. The distorted version became the basis of many musical themes for New Millenium. The two songs were eventually melded into Caught in a New Millenium.
Uh, Caught in a New Millenium was a mashup of Caught in a Web and New Millenium.
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The band did a distorted version of the song at some shows, which some fans have called "Caught in Alice's Nine Inch Tool Garden" for it's influences of Alice in Chains, Nine Inch Nails, Tool and Soundgarden. The distorted version became the basis of many musical themes for New Millenium. The two songs were eventually melded into Caught in a New Millenium.
Uh, Caught in a New Millenium was a mashup of Caught in a Web and New Millenium.
Indeed, but the origin of that comes from the fact that "New Millennium" came from an inspiration-ridden jam of "Caught In A Web".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yq-kU6IFPC4
It could be said that these influences of Alice In Chains, Nine Inch Nails, Tool, and Soundgarden were used to formulate the song "New Millennium". Among other things, songs on FII have other influences from the band, like the various U2-esque sounds from the album and it's b-sides.
EDIT - some stuff pulled from the mp.com FAQs page:
Will Dream Theater ever write an album without an "inspiration corner?" faq id: 14
MP: There's always been an "inspiration corner" - it's just that we usually don't share it with people. From day one, there's always been CDs that we've carried with us for inspiration. But it was only with Scenes and Six Degrees where we made it public. It wasn't even supposed to be a big deal, but it ended up being this big center of discussion between the fans. Instead it really just was supposed to have been a passing tidbit of information, it wasn't supposed to be this big thing that people were going to use to try to anticipate the direction of the album. (https://mikeportnoy.com/aboutmike/faq/answers/14.aspx#14)
Was Anna Lee inspired/influenced by Elton John’s music? faq id: 210
MP: When we wrote Anna Lee, we specifically listened to both "Someone Saved My Life Tonight" and "Rocket Man" for inspiration. (https://mikeportnoy.com/aboutmike/faq/answers/31.aspx#210)
What served as inspiration corner when Dream Theater did When Dream and Day Unite? faq id: 283
MP: I remember we were listening to Operation: Mindcrime *a lot* - it was a big influence on us for that album. (https://mikeportnoy.com/aboutmike/faq/answers/27.aspx#283)
-Marc.
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Oddly enough, BCaSL is the first album DT did where they specifically did NOT have an inspiration corner.
I find this funny because I recall MP saying the following about BC&SL:
"[It's] a Dream Theater album with 'A Change of Seasons', 'Octavarium', 'Learning to Live', 'Pull Me Under' and 'The Glass Prison' all on one album."
They essentially referenced themselves as inspiration! :lol
Well maybe not DIRECTLY (and let's keep the ADTOE/IAW issue out of this thread), but I found it funny that MP touted their then-new album around like that. Surely he meant that TCOT was their new 8VM (the big closing epic), TBOT from ACOS (both about MP's parents), AROP from PMU (the 8-minute metal single), TSF from TGP (the closer of the 12SS), and I *suppose*, ANTR from LTL (although I don't really see how that fits at all as a comparison).
I guess if one goes back to see what the band's favorite albums of 2008-2009 were, it might be easy to draw some conclusion about which albums were used as inspiration.
-Marc.
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I think they've had an "inspiration corner" for a LONG time, but were never really vocal about it until the SFAM/SDOIT-days. I'm sure there were some major influences during FII considering how different that album sounds compared to their first three.
Bon Jovi?
:biggrin:
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Lol. I hope that wasn't a serious comparison, because DT has never sounded like Bon Jovi.
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Lol. I hope that wasn't a serious comparison, because DT has never sounded like Bon Jovi.
Although the vocals during the verses of Through Her Eyes sound kinda like those of a Bon Jovi song. "Never Say Goodbye", maybe?
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Lol. I hope that wasn't a serious comparison, because DT has never sounded like Bon Jovi.
Although the vocals during the verses of Through Her Eyes sound kinda like those of a Bon Jovi song. "Never Say Goodbye", maybe?
At a stretch, I guess they have sorta similar vocal phrasing, but I'm pretty sure no Bon Jovi album has ever been included in "inspiration corner". :lol
That's not a knock on Bon Jovi of course! I'm a big fan of the 80s stuff. :hat
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Never say goodbye......RROOOOOOOOAAAAAARRRRR!!!!!!!
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You Give Prog A Bad Name :P
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You Give Prog A Bad Name :P
Prog already did that for itself. :neverusethis:
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Lol. I hope that wasn't a serious comparison, because DT has never sounded like Bon Jovi.
I always thought that pieces of Status Seeker (specifically the chorus) sounded like something that could have been done by Runaway-era Bon Jovi.
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You Give Prog A Bad Name :P
Lay Your Prog On Me
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Lay Your Time Sigs On Me
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Wanted Dead or Alive or Reincarnated ad nauseum
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Slippery when Prog
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I like it but it ranks low. Higher than DT12 but not as high as ADTOE. Not too crazy about TBOT (although JP's solo sort of saves it in a way). ANTR is mostly pretty good and even though I can appreciate cookie monster vocals, they just don't fit into this song. The most important aspect of BC&SL is that the closing epic is really good despite the fantasy lyrics. Overall, it's not a bad album.
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Never Say 4/4
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Jon Bon Jooooooooooooooooooooovi (https://i1.ytimg.com/vi/sgEMHn2ID_I/default.jpg)
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Like a lot of other folks here, BC&SL is a mixed bag for me. Lyrically, it seems MP and JP had a rough time. For me, it seems they tried to spruce up mediocre ideas with flowerly words in some cases. Most notably in ANTR. I view the story as uninteresting lacking in a climax (especially for a large epic) but the chorus is lyrically beautiful.
As a side note, I think that might be why JP wrote Wither. I think he was really struggling for good song lyric ideas. Don't get me wrong, I love most of JP's lyrics, but I think it's apparent he struggled here.
MP struggled with his lyrics as well. The conclusion of any concept album needs to be powerful and contain the same energy it started with, but the AA Suite just didn't do that for me when it ended with TSF. I remember reading somewhere that MP admitted that the idea sounded great when they started it in SDoIT but as it rolled on it became a chore through subsequent albums. TBoT, for me, was also underwhelming. I feel bad about this because I know this was the ode to his Dad, and emotionally, I bet it was a roller coaster for MP to write. But for me as a listener, it just doesn't grab me and I don't feel the emotion he probably intended. Perhaps I will feel differently when my own dad passes.
I have one exception to the lyrics though, and that is with ARoP. I think the idea of secret societies and Freemasonry was captured well here and is very interesting.
Musically, I think the album does a lot better then it does lyrically. TCoT takes me to a place no other DT music can. Lyrically, I think it is better than ANTR (though marginally) because there is a sort of climax and it reminds me a lot of the Edger Allen Poe story "The Cask of Amotillado", but the music... WOW. Wither, I really love and i think it is one of their best ballads, and ANTR is heavy and brooding with a gothic twist, and ARoP is right up there with OTBoA and PMU for me. I love it. The two portnoy songs are still a struggle though even musically.
Overall it sits at about the middle of their catalog for me. There are definately things I love about it but also some things I don't. Thankfully, the 3 disk edition contained instrumentals of all the songs. ;D
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Lyrically, WHO IS THE GODDAMN DANCING STRANGER AND WHY DID HE DRIVE THE PETRUCCI'S TO DECIDE TO LEAVE EARLY
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Like a lot of other folks here, BC&SL is a mixed bag for me. Lyrically, it seems MP and JP had a rough time. For me, it seems they tried to spruce up mediocre ideas with flowerly words in some cases. Most notably in ANTR. I view the story as uninteresting lacking in a climax (especially for a large epic) but the chorus is lyrically beautiful.
As a side note, I think that might be why JP wrote Wither. I think he was really struggling for good song lyric ideas. Don't get me wrong, I love most of JP's lyrics, but I think it's apparent he struggled here.
*snip*
I have one exception to the lyrics though, and that is with ARoP. I think the idea of secret societies and Freemasonry was captured well here and is very interesting.
Musically, I think the album does a lot better then it does lyrically. TCoT takes me to a place no other DT music can. Lyrically, I think it is better than ANTR (though marginally) because there is a sort of climax and it reminds me a lot of the Edger Allen Poe story "The Cask of Amotillado", but the music... WOW. Wither, I really love and i think it is one of their best ballads, and ANTR is heavy and brooding with a gothic twist, and ARoP is right up there with OTBoA and PMU for me. I love it. The two portnoy songs are still a struggle though even musically.
Overall it sits at about the middle of their catalog for me. There are definately things I love about it but also some things I don't. Thankfully, the 3 disk edition contained instrumentals of all the songs. ;D
You just made me think about something that probably relates to why I like this album so much. It's to do with lyrics being a secondary consideration to me. Don't get me wrong, some songs are simply MADE from expression and creativity in the lyrics, but truely I think some beautifully poetic lyrics tend to get wasted on a boring repetitive progression. Music comes first and that's what most of my attention is on. In fact, I probably nearly fully developed my initial impressions and opinions on the album after merely a couple of listens in which I don't even think I knew what any of the songs were about, other than the symbolism and imagery that I got from them. I didn't go read about them on the interwebz until much later. The music is certainly interesting enough because after hearing this album; is what got me hunting for all the DT material I could get my hands on. Although I'm sure someone else would argue the music was uninspired also. :justjen
I like your assessment of Wither. I never really thought about associating the irony of the subject matter, with how the rest of the songs turned out lyrically. Personally I never took too much issue with the lyrics even after understanding them, just seemed more like a contrast to the 'fantasy' lyrics of SC to more experiential content.
Similarly, I also always thought A Rite of Passage was quite a well crafted piece, specifically lyrically. The phrasing and the rhymes are well done, and upon first hearing had quite a mysterious vibe to it that only lost momentum the more I listened and broke it down.. But there's still something special about that song. ;)
Finally, gotta love the instrumental versions. :metal I was pretty stoaked when ADTOE had instrumental versions as well. And was ultimately disappointed when they stopped this trend at DT12. Whaddup guys? Those instrumental stems were awesome! I see the Japanese release of DT12 seems to have and instrumental version of The Enemy Inside. Well now I know these versions exist. How come you no release them this time DT!!../rant over. :'(
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Lyrically, WHO IS THE GODDAMN DANCING STRANGER AND WHY DID HE DRIVE THE PETRUCCI'S TO DECIDE TO LEAVE EARLY
The "uninvited stranger" was obviously the Count of Tuscany. The start of the album has JP as a kid while the end is him as an adult, meeting the count once more.
- Marc.
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This man was also a wine maker... Petrucci didn't want the wine, 'cause he escaped The Glass Prison with Portnoy, making it The Shattered Fortress... did Italy have Freemasons?
CONCEPT ALBUM PROOF
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You just made me think about something that probably relates to why I like this album so much. It's to do with lyrics being a secondary consideration to me. Don't get me wrong, some songs are simply MADE from expression and creativity in the lyrics, but truely I think some beautifully poetic lyrics tend to get wasted on a boring repetitive progression. Music comes first and that's what most of my attention is on. In fact, I probably nearly fully developed my initial impressions and opinions on the album after merely a couple of listens in which I don't even think I knew what any of the songs were about, other than the symbolism and imagery that I got from them. I didn't go read about them on the interwebz until much later. The music is certainly interesting enough because after hearing this album; is what got me hunting for all the DT material I could get my hands on. Although I'm sure someone else would argue the music was uninspired also. :justjen
I like your assessment of Wither. I never really thought about associating the irony of the subject matter, with how the rest of the songs turned out lyrically. Personally I never took too much issue with the lyrics even after understanding them, just seemed more like a contrast to the 'fantasy' lyrics of SC to more experiential content.
Exactly my feeling, music first, after all we are listening to music, not poetry readings. However, it is nice that the DT members are talented in both areas. I think that quality is one of the keys to their lasting charm and devoted fan base.
And thanks. I think Wither will prove to be one of the pivital songs that shows the history/story of the DT saga.
The "uninvited stranger" was obviously the Count of Tuscany. The start of the album has JP as a kid while the end is him as an adult, meeting the count once more.
- Marc.
:tup :tup that is brilliant! Wish I'd thought of it :facepalm:
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Just sharing my thoughts here: Some people rightfully mentioned that JP wrote the lyrics for awful lyrical efforts such as A Nightmare to Remember or The Count of Tuscany. But you need to remember that sometimes, the music is to blame.
ANTR's music is awesome throughout, sure (maybe a bit repetitive or dull at times but that's just me, I barely like BCSL altogether). But during the TOT -> BCSL era, I feel that DT slightly lost the adjust the music and the lyrics they write separately so that they would fit together.
"Day after day" section was horrible in my opinion, but that's mostly because it was a very intense section with amateur, almost chlidish growls that simply did not fit those lyrics. Imagine it if James sang it in a soft, melodic ballad mood.
Also, remember that time when MP posted the same segment with James singing in the background? It was still very intense, but if MP did not growl in that snippet, it would've been a pretty awesome section with James singing in his usual high pitched voice, like here: https://www.blobvandam.com/ANTR_JLB.mp3
Same goes for The Count, if the singing wasn't so "in your face", even that part where James and MP sang "Let me introduce my brother" would've been more bearable. But it sounded like they almost tried to shout it.
I personally do think that MP is mainly at fault here, but that's just my observation I guess. Mainly because DT went right back into the progressive core of the band, and wrote much better lyrics, right after he left. But who knows, maybe JP simply had a writer's block for like 7 years and suddenly came out of it, then felt like writing prog songs. I dunno.
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As much as I really want to try and love Black Clouds more than I do, it's flaws are very much in-your-face and obvious that I can't ignore them and have to take them into account.
I don't think there's much doubt that MP is mainly responsible for the direction DT were taking right up until his departure. BC&SL sounds like a continuation of the ideas there were developing on SC, but amplifying the "sludge" and the dark vibes each has going on. That's not to say there aren't lighter moments (we have the entire intro and outro to TCOT of course, and much of TBOT), and I like the title of the album in that respect because there are a lot of heavier moments I do enjoy on this album as well, and the juxtaposition of the these elements, while not executed the best or in the most graceful way, is something I think this album actually has going for it.
Regarding the lyrics, George Eliot is definitely on to something. Wither is, lyrically, about the struggles of song-writing and writer's block. As a writer myself, it's something I can closely relate to. TSF and TBOT aside, it tempts me to say that this is evident in the lyrics for the other songs, namely the most mentioned, ANTR and TCOT. AROP aside, a common theme of the album, lyrically, seems to revolve around personal experiences, which is an idea that I would have liked so much more had it been executed with more polished lyrics and less ridiculous vocal approaches...
Bringing me to the controversial "screams" and "growls". For one, I don't believe there to be any actual screams on this entire album, not in the way metalcore or death metal bands approach it at least. Even the harsher vocal styles of other artists such as Devin Townsend or Agalloch are more abrasive than what's done on Black Clouds. This might be just me, but I don't think there are any actual screams, though it wouldn't surprise me one bit if that was a sound that MP was trying to emulate. I'd much rather dub these "roars" honestly. :lol I could tolerate them on their own, but what really kills it for me are they lyrics behind them. Not even so much that the lyrics are sub-par, but that they simply don't feel like they belong naturally with harsher vocal melodies (the ever famous: DID THEY EVER SEE THE RED LIGHT?). I thought this stuff was cool when I first heard the albums, but then again, it was one of my first DT albums. Now I can't help but listen to these moments slightly abashed.
I remember reading that MP stated his favorite album of of 2007 was Between the Buried and Me's Colors. I love the album as well, but his interest in this style at around this time might serve as another indication for DT's musical shift over those years up until he left, and I don't think it's much of a coincidence that the guys returned to a more traditional sound with ADTOE. Hell, I remember reading an article that someone linked on the forum somewhere where one of the guys openly stated feeling more free now that MP is gone.
Now, I'm not against DT doing any particular style or sound, so long as they do it right. With Black Clouds, it's a mixed bagged for sure. There are moments that I just don't like whatsoever, but also moments where I believe they're at some of their best. By DT standards, it's still a pretty average album and one I don't spin as much as others in their discography, but hey we got TCOT out of it.
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I don't think there's much doubt that MP is mainly responsible for the direction DT were taking right up until his departure. BC&SL sounds like a continuation of the ideas there were developing on SC, but amplifying the "sludge" and the dark vibes each has going on. That's not to say there aren't lighter moments (we have the entire intro and outro to TCOT of course, and much of TBOT), and I like the title of the album in that respect because there are a lot of heavier moments I do enjoy on this album as well, and the juxtaposition of the these elements, while not executed the best or in the most graceful way, is something I think this album actually has going for it.
See, I've never understood the bolded part one bit. BCSL really seems much more to me like a return to a more serious, traditionally proggy style of songwriting as opposed to the bombastic, sometimes silly experimental songwriting of SC. Sure, both are among the heavier albums in DT's discography, and they have the largest share of MP vocals, but I think that's really where the commonalities end. There's no song like Constant Motion or The Dark Eternal Night or Prophets of War on BCSL—not even close. Those songs are all—for better or for worse—experimental. Each has its own songwriting style that is different from the typical "complicated music and big melodies" Dream Theater style.
Constant Motion is a high-octane song that centers around the duetting voices of Mike and James. Like if I were asked "what is the main feature of Constant Motion?" my response would be "vocal tradeoffs between MP and JLB." There's no song on BCSL that's even a little bit like that. Sure, there's a lot of Mike on the album, but it's never about those fast-paced tradeoffs (JLB: "Focus here focus there, cannot see the light" MP: "Falling down through the night" JLB: "sprawling everywhere, searching left searching right" MP: "Panic setting in, I can no longer fight" etc). Mike takes one lead part (without any type of tradeoffs) on the whole BCSL album and the rest of the time backs for the purpose of atmosphere.
The Dark Eternal Night is basically built around "let's see how macabre a song we can make. Also let's use complex rhythms." There's not a single song on BCSL that even approaches the macabre vibe of TDEN or the use of complex rhythmic music (in fact, for all the complaints about the BCSL album and about "disjointed instrumental sections"—BCSL does not feature a single one of those!).
Prophets of War's gimmick is being this kind of bombastic 6-minute track that has basically every influence the band could think of thrown in. It's got a dance beat, it's got gang vocals, it's got Queen vocals, it's got a rap, etc. There's nothing on BCSL that includes any random outside influences like these!
Basically, my point is that SC is a gimmicky album. This is not intended to necessarily be a negative statement; it's very possible to like the inherent gimmicky nature of the album! It's fun, it has a lot of new styles for DT and a lot of different outside influences thrown in. But the fact is that BCSL is not in any way a continuation of that gimmicky style. BCSL is a return to the Dream Theater idea of prog + metal—writing long, heavy, melodic compositions with a number of different sections. And this is not to say that anyone is right or wrong to like one and not the other or to like both or to hate both. I'm just saying that I disagree that it is an album in the same or similar style as SC.
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When looking from 8V to SC, the differences are quite clear. The end of the Meta-album series marked a definite shift in style, and while it can be argued that DT in general has done this many times before, I find it much easier to pair SC and Black Clouds together in my head for their similarities. I can't help but imagine that if MP had stayed with the band somehow, we'd have gotten another album similar to Black Clouds instead of what we got in ADTOE.
There are no single songs on Black Clouds that feel too similar to SC, with the exception of AROP. If that song were on SC instead, I wouldn't have questioned it and thought it fitted well enough in there. Other than that, the similarities aren't really in whole songs to me (we have tracks running on 13+ minutes each, so that'd be hard to do without being monotonous), but rather in the drawn-out, heavy, instrumental passages that each song has to offer, namely in ANTR and TSF, the majority of AROP, and even a little bit in TCOT. I believe it's only towards the end of the album where the heaviness lets up.
I'm not saying the two albums are identical by any means, but they're probably the most similar in DT's catalog, at least consecutively, which makes total sense as MP's influence over their sound began to grow more and more.
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Didn't DTF just have a large discussion in which the same people that commonly blame MP for the change in styles in the early RR days also tried to discredit his musical contributions?
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I hate to come off as antagonistic, because I'm not angry and don't mean any ill-will or anything, I just feel pretty confident about my judgement on this one, which comes out in my writing style.
When looking from 8V to SC, the differences are quite clear. The end of the Meta-album series marked a definite shift in style, and while it can be argued that DT in general has done this many times before, I find it much easier to pair SC and Black Clouds together in my head for their similarities. I can't help but imagine that if MP had stayed with the band somehow, we'd have gotten another album similar to Black Clouds instead of what we got in ADTOE.
I agree that there are clear differences between 8VM and SC, but then I think there are clear differences between every Dream Theater album and every other. Nevertheless, I think it's worth noting at least that there are some parallels between the structures of 8VM and of SC, more so than there are between the structures of really any other pair of DT albums. Both end on two long tracks and start with an 8-9 minute high energy piece. The penultimate song on both albums is a ballad with a high-energy instrumental section which many people view as disjointed. The song before this one on the album has something approaching a dance beat. I'm pointing out there parallels not to say "OMG THEY REMADE OCTAVARIUM" but to point out that you can see these things about this pair of albums just as easily as you can say them about SC and BCSL, and to support the idea that there really wasn't a more radical shift between 8VM and SC than there was between SC and BCSL or really any other pair of DT albums.
There are no single songs on Black Clouds that feel too similar to SC, with the exception of AROP. If that song were on SC instead, I wouldn't have questioned it and thought it fitted well enough in there. Other than that, the similarities aren't really in whole songs to me (we have tracks running on 13+ minutes each, so that'd be hard to do without being monotonous), but rather in the drawn-out, heavy, instrumental passages that each song has to offer, namely in ANTR and TSF, the majority of AROP, and even a little bit in TCOT. I believe it's only towards the end of the album where the heaviness lets up.
I wouldn't even say that about AROP. AROP just sounds to me like it belongs on BCSL because it's one of those that really heavily makes use of a gothic vibe and vocal harmonies, neither of which is an attribute of SC but both of which are attributes of, say, A Nightmare to Remember.
But even so, with the instrumental passages, there's not that much stylistic overlap between the instrumental sections of those two albums. Certainly no more than there is between those of BCSL and, say, Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence or Train of Thought (or, dare I say, A Dramatic Turn of Events, an album which I strongly believe to be way more of a sequel to BCSL than BCSL is a sequel to SC).
Basically if "drawn-out, heavy, instrumental passages" is your criterion for saying two Dream Theater albums are similar... that's not really sufficient reason. SDOIT has "drawn-out, heavy, instrumental passages" on several songs (TGP, BF, TGD). Train of Thought has "drawn-out, heavy, instrumental passages" on literally every song except Vacant, and I don't see how SC's instrumental sections are more similar to those of BCSL than ToT's. In fact, I'll go ahead and make the bold claim that in this regard Train of Thought is MORE similar to BCSL than SC is, because ToT's instrumental sections tend to be centered around guitar and keyboard solos and unisons, as do BCSL's, while SC's instrumental passages are often based around what I would describe as piling up a variety of heavy and often chaotic riffs (TDEN, ITPOE2, TMOLS).
I'm not saying the two albums are identical by any means, but they're probably the most similar in DT's catalog, at least consecutively, which makes total sense as MP's influence over their sound began to grow more and more.
And I'm going to say I really can't see that. I think the songwriting changed fairly dramatically between SC and BCSL to a decreased focus on experimentation and wackiness accompanied by an increased focus on atmosphere and melody. And I think this change in focus continued on to ADTOE, though there was certainly a shift in songwriting between that pair of albums as well.
As for most similar back-to-back pair... I'm not even sure what I would say for that, because each album is kind of its own thing, but I would probably say 8VM -> SC or BCSL -> ADTOE... Those ones feel like more natural pairs to me from a purely musical perspective (not from the perspective of the band's history with members, labels, etc). Most similar to BCSL... I would call that one kind of a crossover between ToT and ADTOE, actually, if I had to describe it in terms of other DT albums.
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Not sure what you see as commonality between BC&SL and ADTOE. Night and day to me.
Of course, I agree with you completely about not much in common between SC and BC&SL.
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Didn't DTF just have a large discussion in which the same people that commonly blame MP for the change in styles in the early RR days also tried to discredit his musical contributions?
Guess I wasn't a part of it. :lol Besides, I'm not really trying to discredit his contributions to the band.
I agree that there are clear differences between 8VM and SC, but then I think there are clear differences between every Dream Theater album and every other. Nevertheless, I think it's worth noting at least that there are some parallels between the structures of 8VM and of SC, more so than there are between the structures of really any other pair of DT albums. Both end on two long tracks and start with an 8-9 minute high energy piece. The penultimate song on both albums is a ballad with a high-energy instrumental section which many people view as disjointed. The song before this one on the album has something approaching a dance beat. I'm pointing out there parallels not to say "OMG THEY REMADE OCTAVARIUM" but to point out that you can see these things about this pair of albums just as easily as you can say them about SC and BCSL, and to support the idea that there really wasn't a more radical shift between 8VM and SC than there was between SC and BCSL or really any other pair of DT albums.
The thing is, these similarities between 8V and SC are more structural similarities rather than musical or stylistic similarities. I agree, that any thought can be stretched out to mark commonalities between two albums, but what I hear between SC and BC&SL are musical similarities.
But even so, with the instrumental passages, there's not that much stylistic overlap between the instrumental sections of those two albums. Certainly no more than there is between those of BCSL and, say, Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence or Train of Thought (or, dare I say, A Dramatic Turn of Events, an album which I strongly believe to be way more of a sequel to BCSL than BCSL is a sequel to SC).
Basically if "drawn-out, heavy, instrumental passages" is your criterion for saying two Dream Theater albums are similar... that's not really sufficient reason. SDOIT has "drawn-out, heavy, instrumental passages" on several songs (TGP, BF, TGD). Train of Thought has "drawn-out, heavy, instrumental passages" on literally every song except Vacant, and I don't see how SC's instrumental sections are more similar to those of BCSL than ToT's. In fact, I'll go ahead and make the bold claim that in this regard Train of Thought is MORE similar to BCSL than SC is, because ToT's instrumental sections tend to be centered around guitar and keyboard solos and unisons, as do BCSL's, while SC's instrumental passages are often based around what I would describe as piling up a variety of heavy and often chaotic riffs (TDEN, ITPOE2, TMOLS).
Maybe I failed to word my thoughts correctly. Yes, "drawn-out", "heavy", and "instrumental passages" can be attributed to a plethora of DT albums, not just SC and BC&SL. I think with those two, something about JP's guitar tone is similar, more so than on other albums. I'm no major in music theory, so forgive me for lacking fancy words in describing this, as I only know to explain music in how it feels more than anything. I keep on using the word "sludgy" when describing the guitar sound in these two albums, where in albums like TOT, I feel a word like "crushing" is more appropriate. On TOT the riffs feel thinner yet more driving and fueled, while those in SC and BC&SL feel "fatter" with more distortion. It's a very minute difference, and one I don't expect anyone to agree with. This is just what my own ears hear so it's quite possibly others might describe it differently. The vocal approaches in both albums I feel also share some common traits, being a slight departure from JLB's usual high notes and soaring melodies (with obvious exceptions of course).
And I'm going to say I really can't see that. I think the songwriting changed fairly dramatically between SC and BCSL to a decreased focus on experimentation and wackiness accompanied by an increased focus on atmosphere and melody. And I think this change in focus continued on to ADTOE, though there was certainly a shift in songwriting between that pair of albums as well.
As for most similar back-to-back pair... I'm not even sure what I would say for that, because each album is kind of its own thing, but I would probably say 8VM -> SC or BCSL -> ADTOE... Those ones feel like more natural pairs to me from a purely musical perspective (not from the perspective of the band's history with members, labels, etc). Most similar to BCSL... I would call that one kind of a crossover between ToT and ADTOE, actually, if I had to describe it in terms of other DT albums.
I agree that each album has its own feel to it. I still consider SC to be SC and Black Clouds to be Black Clouds, not SC = B&SL. I just feel that some ideas on SC were carried over into BC&SL and that the two to me were similar enough to make them stick out in my mind as somewhat of a pair. By no means, however, do I consider them identical or being even almost the same.
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BCSL >>> SC, just my opinion. 8V is somewhere between those two.
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Maybe I failed to word my thoughts correctly. Yes, "drawn-out", "heavy", and "instrumental passages" can be attributed to a plethora of DT albums, not just SC and BC&SL. I think with those two, something about JP's guitar tone is similar, more so than on other albums. I'm no major in music theory, so forgive me for lacking fancy words in describing this, as I only know to explain music in how it feels more than anything. I keep on using the word "sludgy" when describing the guitar sound in these two albums, where in albums like TOT, I feel a word like "crushing" is more appropriate. On TOT the riffs feel thinner yet more driving and fueled, while those in SC and BC&SL feel "fatter" with more distortion. It's a very minute difference, and one I don't expect anyone to agree with. This is just what my own ears hear so it's quite possibly others might describe it differently. The vocal approaches in both albums I feel also share some common traits, being a slight departure from JLB's usual high notes and soaring melodies (with obvious exceptions of course).
Hmm, okay. I don't hear that at all, myself. I think BCSL's guitar sound is very distinct from that of SC and that of TOT. The vocal approach, I can agree with, but I think that's just a symptom of JLB's age. He doesn't go for high notes that much on ADTOE or DT12 (Pursuit of Truth as one exception) either. This sounds all quite subjective, which you seem to agree with, but I understand a little bit more of where you're coming from now.
Oh, and don't worry about not knowing how to describe music. I know absolutely no music theory myself, so I'm also kind of just doing my best.
I agree that each album has its own feel to it. I still consider SC to be SC and Black Clouds to be Black Clouds, not SC = B&SL. I just feel that some ideas on SC were carried over into BC&SL and that the two to me were similar enough to make them stick out in my mind as somewhat of a pair. By no means, however, do I consider them identical or being even almost the same.
Yeah, okay, I understand that somewhat. It's not like that for me, but maybe it's just a personal approach thing.
Not sure what you see as commonality between BC&SL and ADTOE. Night and day to me.
To me, it's just a more similar approach to songwriting than on previous albums that I hear. I don't think they're that similar at all, though. It's just if I had to say something for BCSL.
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The vocal approach, I can agree with, but I think that's just a symptom of JLB's age. He doesn't go for high notes that much on ADTOE or DT12 (Pursuit of Truth as one exception) either. This sounds all quite subjective, which you seem to agree with, but I understand a little bit more of where you're coming from now.
I also forgot to mention probably the more obvious: MP's backing vocals--these being the two albums where they're the most distinct and prominent. It's moments like these where it seems they tried to inject more accessible shades of metal into their music, an effort that either paid off or didn't depending on who you ask.
In general, it might just be how I approach the music. BC&SL was one of my first DT albums while I didn't get to SC until much later. I just remember hearing a good amount of similarities in the latter first time I heard it, and for the most part, I still do. I'm not opposed to other viewpoints regarding these two and how similar or not they may be, though.
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Not sure what you see as commonality between BC&SL and ADTOE. Night and day to me.
I think you meant day after day and night after night.
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Not sure what you see as commonality between BC&SL and ADTOE. Night and day to me.
I think you meant day after day and night after night.
LOL...
he's right though
why is this place so dead now?
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Not sure what you see as commonality between BC&SL and ADTOE. Night and day to me.
I think you meant day after day and night after night.
YOU WOULD BE SO WRONG
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BUT,
BUT,
Yes sir.
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:lol
My one terabyte hard drive has a 1/3 partitioned for all you gifs. :lol
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DAMN YOU! :lol
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I do like this album, though I do consider it to be the weakest in their catalog; though this speaks more about how DT has released consistently great albums than on BC&SL. With most of their albums, I find that I can listen to them over and over without getting tired of them. I can listen to this album every once in a while, and I enjoy it whenever I do, but I find that it wears out its welcome after a few listens. I attribute this mostly to the inconsistent quality of the first two tracks; both ANTR and ARoP are mostly comprised of exceptional moments, but have a few components that do not work. Coincidently, the parts I take issue with in both songs involve part of Jordan's solos and Mike's vocals. Due to this inconsistency in the first 25 minutes or so, I find it hard to motivate myself to listen to the album, even though the remaining two thirds are excellent. Unlike their other albums, I prefer to listen to parts of this one rather than the entire thing.
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Plenty of love for this album. I'd be so bold as to put it at the #2 spot for me. It's the last Dream Theater album I ever listened to that really excited me right from the very first listen.
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A Nightmare To Remember brought me into DT and I'd still call it my favorite song of them. But the ridiculous talking at 11 mins breaks the whole epicness every time for me >_> The only song I don't like of the album is The Best of Times. I love The Shattered Fortress and even The Count of Tuscany is on it, my second favorite :hefdaddy
To me, it's not important to be able to listen over and over to an album and still like it. I always like to have some time between listening sessions, because it's so beautiful and great that I don't want to 'abuse' it, if that makes any sense.
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I still think this album is pretty awesome, although it's not in my top 5 the way it was when it came out. Tracks like A Nightmare to remember, The Count of Tuscany and The Best of times are certainly among the band's best epic pieces, and Wither is a really sweet ballad that I'd love to hear live. I'm not a huge fan of The Shattered fortress, although it kicks ass in concert, to be honest.