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Dream Theater => Dream Theater => Topic started by: bosk1 on April 11, 2014, 08:48:59 AM
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Yeah, I understand what the song is about. And musically and lyrically, I understand what the song is doing. But...well, let me explain it this way:
The song has so much going for it. It's got perhaps one of the most distinctive, recognizable, catchy riffs in the DT catalog (see the riff "hall of fame" thread). It's got cool lyrics. It's got lots of other great things going for it. And, yet, it is probably my second least favorite song in the 12SS because it is also a bit disjointed.
And here is my biggest issue, and what caused me to post: The "Blackened" section. After all this time, I still really have no idea how I am supposed to take that part of the song. I just don't get it. Is it supposed to be taken seriously? If so, the over-the-top homage to Blackened seems so silly that it is a HUGE distraction to me taking that part of the song seriously. Normally, I have no problem with DT wearing their influences on their sleeves. But this one is just too over-the-top for me if that part of the song is supposed to be serious. ...or is it supposed to be taken as a light-hearted homage section? If so, I am still thrown off by it, simply because the lyrics and tone are so dark and serious that a light-hearted homage seems out of place for this portion of the song. So about a decade after the song was released, I am still comlpetely confused and at a loss for how to take this particular song section. Any brilliant insights?
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Here's my insight - You're overanalyzing a section that happens to resemble another song, but has nothing to do with said song. It is This Dying Soul. Listen to it as that.
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The Blackened section is where the song gets a lot less interesting and simply runs out of gas - from a creative and interesting aspect, not from an energetic standpoint. Most of the first half of the song is really good, but it's really let down by the second half. And the last minute of the song is just wankery to the max, and not interesting wankery.
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The Blackened section is where the song gets a lot less interesting and simply runs out of gas - from a creative and interesting aspect, not from an energetic standpoint. Most of the first half of the song is really good, but it's really let down by the second half. And the last minute of the song is just wankery to the max, and not interesting wankery.
All of this.
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The Blackened section is where the song gets a lot less interesting and simply runs out of gas - from a creative and interesting aspect, not from an energetic standpoint. Most of the first half of the song is really good, but it's really let down by the second half. And the last minute of the song is just wankery to the max, and not interesting wankery.
Yeah, exactly. Although I didn't mention it, that is another huge factor. The Blackened section hits, and I am confused about how I am supposed to react to it. And then we get to the extreme wankery that, unlike the vast majority of DT "wankery," just doesn't feel very interesting to me, and when those two factors combine in such close proximity in the same song, I am left a bit wanting.
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I have a fair idea what section you might be talking about, but may I ask to confirm, what time does the section in question begin? Is it the big where JLB raps or whatever you want to call it?
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I have a fair idea what section you might be talking about, but may I ask to confirm, what time does the section in question begin? Is it the big where JLB raps or whatever you want to call it?
You have just inadvertently brought to attention why I never felt this "Blackened" section was any sort of issue. Unless someone were to point it out, you'd probably not even make the connection. But then again, my ears might just be retarded or sumthin.
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This may help you with the "Blackened" section (as it helped me). At first this section sounded like a generic homage to Metcallica, but when I later studied the sheet music, I discovered that JP plays the same exact riff in that verse, and in the subsequent verse -- but the lyrical melody and time signatures are recalculated to create a completely new feel. When you realize JP is playing the same notes in a different syncopation -- it's just WOW!!
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A bit distracting, but I can get past it. Besides, the section right after is a homage to Megadeth or at least Dave Mustaine. I still love This Dying Soul.
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In that case, I think JLB kills that section, in a good way, at least in the studio version. Probably don't want to think about the Buddakan version. I dunno about the guitar riff, I mean most 'thrashy' riffs start to sound similar after a while, I think it doesn't really matter what it sounds similar to, but the type of rhythm or mood that they're going for at the time.
This Dying Soul is generally pretty cool overall for me. Suffers from some general ToT Syndrome of course but it's still cool.
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A bit distracting, but I can get past it. Besides, the section right after is a homage to Megadeth or at least Dave Mustaine. I still love This Dying Soul.
I'm not sure that was intentional, so much as just due to JLB sounding a lot like Mustaine when he talks/sings that gritty. :lol
The first time I heard Crucified from EoP (and no it wasn't from the Octavarium leak :lol ), I thought it was Megadeth, because it was fast and thrashy, and the vocals sounded like Mustaine at first. True story.
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A bit distracting, but I can get past it. Besides, the section right after is a homage to Megadeth or at least Dave Mustaine. I still love This Dying Soul.
Funny, as that part reminds me not of Megadeth, but of Queensryche. The vocal effect is very reminiscent of Screaming in Digital or NM 156.
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Yeah, exactly. Although I didn't mention it, that is another huge factor. The Blackened section hits, and I am confused about how I am supposed to react to it. And then we get to the extreme wankery that, unlike the vast majority of DT "wankery," just doesn't feel very interesting to me, and when those two factors combine in such close proximity in the same song, I am left a bit wanting.
I think the Blackened section is supposed to have a manic kind of energy to it.
The first part of the song is reflective. It's about MP's past, and the experience of looking at it with sober eyes (literally and metaphorically for the first time). The end of it is making the decision to face that. Lots of soaring, resolute classical melodies and spacey guitars.
The second part is called Release because it's about taking all the stuff in the Reflections of Reality section and letting it go. It's obvious from lines like "Your fearless admissions will help expel your destructive obsessions."
I think what's trying to be communicated emotionally through the music is that this is a highly elevated, intense experience. It's more than a little crazy.
From an idea standpoint, I get it and think it's cool, but it's the execution that leaves me cold.
There's a moment in the making of ToT video where MP's listening to JLB's vocals during the second part. He says something like "This sounds like Dave Mustaine meets Satan." I'm not saying you should take yourself too seriously, but I'm not sure it's a good thing if you're laughing at your own work either. If MP's not buying it, why should we?
Also, it just doesn't really have any momentum to it. The keyboards get more ghostly, but that's really about it. I actually like the ending unison a lot (it's technically insane and very musical), but the keyboard and guitar solos don't really build off the stuff before it, and they don't really help me get to the unison.
I hope this comes across as dry and academic as it's meant to - It just doesn't go far enough. It does what it's supposed to do. But it doesn't go all the way.
Finally, I don't think the Blackened thing was intentional. Whenever DT borrows from influences, they put their own twist on it. Even The Looking Glass is so overtly influenced by Limelight that you can't accuse them of trying to hide it. I have no idea why they would use the riff from Blackened on purpose. It probably just slipped in.
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I love TDS, although it used to be my least favourite from TOT for quite some time.
And I never got what's so Metallica about that section :huh:
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I agree with Reap, and I don't get what's not to get about the song.
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Right. So, I used to be a huge Metallica fan, and I know their discography pretty well. And even though I've read some mentions of this Blackened section, I actually had to google where it started. Now, I can hear the similarities. I hadn't really noticed them before, and they don't bother me. The section in TDS is a bit weird, but it doesn't feel like some light-hearted homage for me. As Reap said, it might not even be an intentional homage.
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Yeah, exactly. Although I didn't mention it, that is another huge factor. The Blackened section hits, and I am confused about how I am supposed to react to it. And then we get to the extreme wankery that, unlike the vast majority of DT "wankery," just doesn't feel very interesting to me, and when those two factors combine in such close proximity in the same song, I am left a bit wanting.
There's a moment in the making of ToT video where MP's listening to JLB's vocals during the second part. He says something like "This sounds like Dave Mustaine meets Satan." I'm not saying you should take yourself too seriously, but I'm not sure it's a good thing if you're laughing at your own work either. If MP's not buying it, why should we?
Ludicrous can be good! I don't think anyone was "buying" The Dark Eternal Night as a serious narrative proposition - John Petrucci looks so shifty when he's describing the lyrics - but they're so much fun, and absolutely correct for the song that it is.
I don't think it works in This Dying Soul, but that's just context. Good idea, wrong song. The next paragraph is where you hit the nail on the head - that's one of those patented ReaPsTA eureka moments. The riffs are good, there's some great music, but there's no momentum, no forward drive. Reflections of Reality (Revisited), on its own, is a brilliant song. The middle-eastern twang, the rappy bits, it ploughs and progresses and shifts. The second bit is stodgier - it sort of has a two steps forward, one step back thing going on.
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I have listened to Blackened hundreds of times and This Dying Soul not much less. I have never heard a resemblance myself. I just watched a youtube video comparing the two and still, it sounds so different to me that I'd never put 2 and 2 together. It's interesting how different people's internal listening filters (ILF) are even when comparing the same two songs.
-T
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Does anybody know if the song was written before they decided to make it the second 12s song?
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Whenever I see this thread title, I sing it to the melody of the song.
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The only resemblance that I hear between the the two songs is that Blackened/the Blackened section of TDS are both lyrically delivered with (essentially) 5-syllable stanza's, and the tempo/rhythm section keeps a similar (I assume 4/4) beat. I don't hear the similarity in the riffs, or any other aspect.
Totally agree on the final wanking section of TDS. Other than The Reckoning from ITPOE, it's my least fav wankery in the entire catalog. I will give props to the outro unison though. THAT is amazing.
I put it middle of the pack for the 12SS songs.
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What is the "Blackened section"? I just listened to the song and didn't hear a similarity at all.
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"Blackened in the end..."
"Come to me, my friend.."
It's essentially the same vocal melody.
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This may help you with the "Blackened" section (as it helped me). At first this section sounded like a generic homage to Metcallica, but when I later studied the sheet music, I discovered that JP plays the same exact riff in that verse, and in the subsequent verse -- but the lyrical melody and time signatures are recalculated to create a completely new feel. When you realize JP is playing the same notes in a different syncopation -- it's just WOW!!
???
They share notes, and are in E, but they are not the same. Sure, the time sigs and rhythms are different, agreed. If it wasn't a hassle to upload photos to share a picture of the scores, I would. But they go something like;
TDS;
3-2-0-0-0-8-7-0-0-0-0-3-2
BLKND;
3
2 1 2-1
0-0-0-0-0--2-3-----3
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I never heard Blackened, so it doesn't affect my listening experience.
This Dying Soul rocks.
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All of "Release" is so tiresome, and such a downer from the pretty good "Reflections of Reality". The whole thing sounds like JP came up with riffs, but none of the other guys knew what to do with them, and so they either just copied his riff, or soloed over it. And then by 10:30 they suddenly shoe-horn this totally pointless new riff in, to the point where I usually just click the "next" button.
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^^^
Very good theory, and maybe explains why I have never been too keen on it. There are some great riffs, but I don't really like any of the solos, nor vocal melodies.
Special kudos to JM's playing underneath the chromatic unison at the end.
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;D CableX, I think you misunderstood me. I wasn't saying that JP's riff is the same as Metallica's. I was pointing out that in TDS Verse 4 and Verse sound like different riffs, but are indeed the same notes. Discovering this small tidbit of genius made me forgive the blatant Blackened homage. While I didn't realize this until I saw the sheet music, I did recognize the Blackened melody reference upon first listen of the track.
[I made a nice side-by-side comparison from the tab book, but I have no idea how to upload a photo to a post.]
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It seemed like you originally said it was the exact same riff RaiseTheKnife. The excerpts I posted are the riffs (mostly, didn't go for 100%), which are very different. I think it's clutching at straws to say the same notes are being played, and thus linking the two songs even more. Sure, they share almost all the same notes. But so does the slow riff at around 6:00 in TGP with a lot of 7 string metal songs. And as we both agree, the rhythms are completely different. It's the vocal melody that makes the song an obvious rip-off.
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I don't know if this thread is why, but I had this song on the brain tonight, and I listened to it on a drive home a few hours ago. My impression of it then was similar to what it usually is: a song that has some really great stuff in it, but is kind of a mess, and never really comes together to make it great or even really good. That guitar lead that comes in shortly before the minute mark, and is heard several times over the course of the song, is by far the best and coolest thing about the song.
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I think this is still my fav DT song.
There's not much insight as to why it's my favourite song, it's just flat out metal and it tickles me right where I itch. I really like the 12SS reprises thus far, the riffs, the melodies and I think the structure is fine. From start to finish I love the song. DT at their heaviest and untamed.
I understand bosk why you think what you did regarding the Blackened section, but as other have said I think you are thinking too much about it, and I personally think it's just what you said, the band wearing their influences on their sleeve. I also believe the 'tormenting ghosts of yesterday' section is a bit of a Dave Mustaine impression too from Labrie, so I think both influences are totally intentional.
To those who don't believe it's a Blackened rip off need to wake up to themselves, even though it's my fav song, it's clearly a rip off. I think the outro section is one of the coolest things the band have done too.
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To those who don't believe it's a Blackened rip off need to wake up to themselves, even though it's my fav song, it's clearly a rip off.
Given that the "melody" and riff that are supposedly being "ripped off" are basically both one note, I strongly disagree. The similarity is obviously there, but it's not like they accidentally copied the Mona Lisa here. It's chugging the E string while singing a note over the top. The vocal rhythm is the only thing that even makes it similar, and again that's hardly distinctive. The possibility of inadvertently writing something similar is relatively very high. And it still has plenty to set it apart, including the alternating time sigs, the call and response vocals inbetween, and the harmonies.
I'm not denying the similarity, but given that you could "rip off" that section by banging one note on a keyboard, let's not go too far.
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I mean more the vocal melody, I agree the music isn't enough to warrant a rip off, but IMO, the vocal melody is.
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There's hardly a melody there in either song, especially TDS. The rhythm makes up most of the similarity, which as jingle pointed out, is just 5 syllable lines at a similar tempo, and that's about it.
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I agree with Reap, and I don't get what's not to get about the song.
Same. It's one of my favorite Dream Theater songs. And a big part of why I like it so much is that last section of the song, which, to my ears, just rips like nobody's business :metal
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It seemed like you originally said it was the exact same riff RaiseTheKnife. The excerpts I posted are the riffs (mostly, didn't go for 100%), which are very different. I think it's clutching at straws to say the same notes are being played, and thus linking the two songs even more. Sure, they share almost all the same notes. But so does the slow riff at around 6:00 in TGP with a lot of 7 string metal songs. And as we both agree, the rhythms are completely different. It's the vocal melody that makes the song an obvious rip-off.
I'm pretty sure RaiseTheKnife is talking about 2 different riffs, both in TDS.
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I still don't get "The End of the Line"..
<<The over-the-top homage to "Jaws of Life" seems so silly that it is a HUGE distraction to me taking that part of the song seriously>>
Not really, but just saying that anyone can say the same thing about thousand of songs that had similar riffs/vocals/intros/ending/solos/etc to others..
Just in case: TEotL 5:32 - 5:41, JoL 5:21 - 5:52 (specially 5:49-5:52, it's the SAME riff!!)
Another "homages":
- Peruvian Skies to Bleeding Me (Metallica), both intros..
- Wither solo to Bohemian Rhapsody (Queen) solo.. Same fill..
- The Glass Prison to In My Darkest Hour (Megadeth) intros..
- Holy Wars... (Megadeth) (2:41) to The Killing Hand (0:36)
- Death of Balance (Symphony X) to The Mirror riff intro (This is just the same! DoB: 1:23 - 1:48.. Right at 1:44 I sing over it everytime "Temptation...")
and many more of DT and SX.. Just don't have the time to look for all I know.. I think that's enough to make my point..
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I'm pretty sure RaiseTheKnife is talking about 2 different riffs, both in TDS.
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Exactly.
Regarding Peruvian Skies, it should be noted that Metallica borrows liberally from a Michael Hedges song in Bleeding Me. However, I really disagree with all of the comparisons made by TOT. Glass Prison and Tornado are NOT the same riffs.
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Of course they're not the same riff!... That's exactly what I'm saying.. In the same way that neither that part from TDS and Blackened are.. They're not the same.. They're just similar.. Influence, coincidence, we'll never know.. Only They know..
In the same vein, it can't be deny that Death of Balance has that too similar part with The Mirror.. Yet, it's a technic very used by many other bands, changing from 4/4 to 3/4 or viceversa while the same riff is play it, so... The same happens with those five syllables on TDS.. In TGP we have a similar vocal part with "Enter the door".. There are four here, as well as could have been six, seven...
All homages done by DT are in Full Circle.. I correct myself: done by MP.. The rest we'll never know with certainty..
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Chugging on an E string with varying rhythms is like metal 101, and even after analysing the riff and establishing the differences in tone and time, if the only true similarity is a 5 syllable vocal melody that consists of a repeating note in a single pitch, and a rhythm of: ♪♪♪♪ ♩. I mean, have I missed something? Has this pattern never been used in music before?
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It's a really cool song. I like the first part, but I don't like the second. I skip the song when it reaches there.
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Yeah, as I should have skipped that comment.. :laugh:
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Bosk, my standard policy for the last 10 years for this song has been to simply hit/click "next" right after the first chorus. It's a very awesome little songlet like that.
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There's hardly a melody there in either song, especially TDS. The rhythm makes up most of the similarity, which as jingle pointed out, is just 5 syllable lines at a similar tempo, and that's about it.
No, it's a series of 5 syllable (roughly) lines at a similar tempo, that happens to have the same rhyme scheme and phrasing as the original song. But, yeah, aside from being the same notes, same rhythm, same rhyme, and same phrasing, there is absolutely no similarity whatsoever. :lol
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I agree with Reap, and I don't get what's not to get about the song.
And a big part of why I like it so much is that last section of the song, which, to my ears, just rips like nobody's business :metal
This. I can understand people who think it's out of control wankery, but I LOVE it.
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I definitely hear the Blackened comparison, but that part really doesn't make me think of Metallica until it was pointed out years ago. And as Zook said earlier in the thread, the Megadeth part right after jumped out to me immediately.
This is a killer track and in my DT Top 20.
And a big part of why I like it so much is that last section of the song, which, to my ears, just rips like nobody's business :metal
I agree!
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- The Glass Prison to Tornado of Souls (Megadeth) intros..
What? The bass melody of TGP and the TOS intro riff? There's no similarity at all :huh:
- Death of Balance (Symphony X) to The Mirror riff intro (This is just the same! DoB: 1:23 - 1:48.. Right at 1:44 I sing over it everytime "Temptation...")
The Death Of Balance came out a few years after The Mirror.
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I never heard the similarity until this thread :biggrin: The whole album has tons of homages to Metallica and metal bands of the like, so I never thought it was all that surprising or much of a bother. All that matters is :metal :metal :metal
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- The Glass Prison to Tornado of Souls (Megadeth) intros..
What? The bass melody of TGP and the TOS intro riff? There's no similarity at all :huh:
I never said "Bass melody".. I wasn't referring to the melody, but to the technical part (guitar and drum).. Don't know if this is legal, but I leave you this link to a fb video so you can hear the similarity by hearing the two parts at the same time.. https://goo.gl/DZTHPA
Edit: Lol.. MY BAD!!.. I confused Tornado of Souls with In My Darkest Hour.. :-[ Not a real Megadeth fan anyway.. I get now how everyone was denying the likeness.. ;D
- Death of Balance (Symphony X) to The Mirror riff intro (This is just the same! DoB: 1:23 - 1:48.. Right at 1:44 I sing over it everytime "Temptation...")
The Death Of Balance came out a few years after The Mirror.
That was my only argument to say it was a homage by Symphony to DT.. Also that's why I always sing "Temptation..." over DoB and not vice versa, which in fact would be impossible..
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Whoops, sorry about the Death Of Balance part, seems like I misunderstood that. Anyway, I can see some similarity between TGP and IMDH.