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Dream Theater => Concerts and Set Lists => Topic started by: Ayeegit on April 11, 2014, 07:54:47 AM
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During the "Surrender, Trust & Passion" portion of Illumination Theory last night in Denver, it *appeared* that John might have been lip-syncing the backing vocals (where he repeats what James is singing on each line, starting with "To really feel the joy in life...").
I thought I saw John not quite get back to the mic prior to hearing the start of the backing vocals during one of the verses, but it certainly could have been pure exhaustion on my part by that point of the show.
Anyone happen to know? Just curiosity on my part...
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I don't think so. I think what is happening is similar to what Alex Lifeson does with Rush: he is singing along with a pre-recorded backing track that they trigger, but he is so low in the mix that we don't hear him. So yeah, he is singing.
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That makes a lot of sense - thanks Kevin!
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https://www.yourock.tv/index.php?idvideo=602&ondemand
This is a live video of The Enemy inside from one of the concerts on this year's European leg, and you can definitely hear JP doing the backing vocals, it's his voice.
Now, I don't know if that's the case on all of the songs this year, or if some of it was pre-recorded. I believe if they were to pre-record some backing vocals, James would be the one doing that, like it was the case on A Dramatic tour of events. If you watch LALP, JP is clearly lip-syncing in The Dark eternal night and a few other songs, you can clearly hear LaBrie's voice. I don't quite get the singing along to the prerecorded parts, if he were to really sing it, there would be no need to prerecord anything.
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I am pretty sure Kev is right. They absolutely DO have a backing track, which I think is what is throwing people off. People said the same thing about him on parts of Luna Park where he is either singing away from the mic or is at the mic, but you cannot really hear him and do hear the backing track. I don't think he is lip-synching. I think he is just very low in the mix, and the piped-in backing track is louder.
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Mladen, just because you cannot hear him, and can hear JLB, does not mean JP is clearly lip-synching; it just means that he is too low in the mix to hear.
Singing along to pre-recorded parts just looks better so fans in the crowd see someone singing along to the vocal part on stage that they are hearing, even if the backing vocal track drowns out JP's live singing.
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At the Helsinki show you could clearly hear JP's voice on a lot of songs, especially the Wasteland section in Trial of Tears. I also heard both his voice and the triggered backing vocals during the first verse of TSF, which makes me believe Kev's theory is correct: if his voice is low in the mix, it may look like he's not singing for real.
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Mladen, just because you cannot hear him, and can hear JLB, does not mean JP is clearly lip-synching; it just means that he is too low in the mix to hear.
Singing along to pre-recorded parts just looks better so fans in the crowd see someone singing along to the vocal part on stage that they are hearing, even if the backing vocal track drowns out JP's live singing.
Exactly this. And the backing tracks are a variety of parts, from what I have been able to tell. Sometimes, it is just James on a backing track. Sometimes, it is quite a few different parts, which may or may not include John. It depends on what the song calls for. But it makes sense on some that have huge backing vocal secions that the backing track might have a 3 or 4 part (or more) backing track in addition to John singing one of the backup parts live, as well as James singing the lead.
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Mladen, just because you cannot hear him, and can hear JLB, does not mean JP is clearly lip-synching; it just means that he is too low in the mix to hear.
Singing along to pre-recorded parts just looks better so fans in the crowd see someone singing along to the vocal part on stage that they are hearing, even if the backing vocal track drowns out JP's live singing.
While it can look a little cheesy, I think I'd prefer this to some of the vocal performances I've heard from John. Having him drowned out isn't entirely a bad thing IMO. :)
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That makes sense. But for some strange reason, I'm still not buying it on some of the songs when I watch Live at Luna Park. It sounds like one voice, and the voice that I hear is James. I get it when there's variety, if they need more backing vocals and stuff - but if only one voice is needed, they should ditch the backing track and turn up JP's mic.
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I am personally not a fan of the backing vocal track live. I say let JP song it. I get it won't sound just like the album. What's next? Backing rhythm guitar under the live solos?
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What's next? Backing rhythm guitar under the live solos?
Sure, why not? (I think they actually do this)
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What's next? Backing rhythm guitar under the live solos?
Sure, why not? (I think they actually do this)
I am pretty sure JP never played the Count of Tuscany acoustic intro, since he wouldn't be able to play that and the electric lead that comes in at the same time. Therefore, the acoustic intro was always a backing track, right?
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Yup, that's a good example.
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Besides that Count of Tuscany example, what are other examples of this? I can't remember DT ever using guitar backing tracks in any other song, ever...
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I think the intros for both A Change of Seasons and Stream of Consciousness have both been triggered in the past, similar to how they always use the first 40 seconds or so of the recorded Metropolis before finally coming in with the full band live.
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Right, they use tracks for intros sometimes for effect, but specifically having backing guitars underneath solos... I don't think they ever did that.
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I can't point to anything specific other than the types of examples mentioned, but the songs are so layered that it would not surprise me to learn that there was sometimes a backing guitar track lower in the mix at times.
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Count of Tuscany, yes, but I don't know that they've ever done it anywhere else. Not in the middle of a song. They usually get Jordan Rudess to do rhythmy guitar stuff, if it's really essential, don't they? They even had James LaBrie play the second keyboard in Octavarium, they're generally pretty hot on ensuring they make all the noises themselves where possible. I'm watching The Root of All Evil from the Dramatic Turn tour, under the solo - if there's any song they'd pump the riffs in, I'd think that'd be right up there, and they're not, it's just bass and keys.
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I'm aware of TCOT one. When I saw that tour, I think I figured JR would have his keyboards in a guitar sounding mode for the intro.
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Well in the MP era of DT there is no way they could have used a backing guitar track in the middle of a song to fill in under a solo because they never played to click. Without a click track there wouldn't be any good way to make that sort of thing work.
Now I believe I have seen JR do double-duty under some JP solos especially the ones where the keys are just simply sustaining pad chord sounds. I think I've seen him split the keyboard and play the pad sounds with one hand and play a rhythm guitar style sound and part with the other.
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I don't think so. I think what is happening is similar to what Alex Lifeson does with Rush: he is singing along with a pre-recorded backing track that they trigger, but he is so low in the mix that we don't hear him. So yeah, he is singing.
I think thats it. I could clearly hear him singing and he wasn't necessarily off key but it didn't sound flawless so it was clearly him.
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You shouldn't write music you can't reproduce live without artificial assistance. What's the point of "live" music?
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What a silly stance.
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You shouldn't write music you can't reproduce live without artificial assistance.
Why not? Push boundaries!
I think it's better to do something a bit different and rawer live than to pump in a backing track and try to match the studio, adapt to your limitations, but the studio track is the statement and you should make it absolutely perfect. If that means five layers of guitar and a three-handed keyboard, so be it. It'll make the stripped-down live version all the more interesting by contrast. Vive la difference.
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In addition to the previous examples mentioned, other backing guitar tracks in live songs:
I'm quite sure the guitar harmony in Outcry (that Metropolplis-ish part before the first verse) is a backing guitar track.
The guitar feedback bridging As I Am to This Dying Soul is a backing track when played together live.
The intro and pre-second verse riff in Build Me Up, Break Me Down.
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You shouldn't write music you can't reproduce live without artificial assistance.
Yes you should.
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the studio track is the statement and you should make it absolutely perfect. If that means five layers of guitar and a three-handed keyboard, so be it.
This x a million.
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You shouldn't write music you can't reproduce live without artificial assistance.
Why not? Push boundaries!
I think it's better to do something a bit different and rawer live than to pump in a backing track and try to match the studio, adapt to your limitations, but the studio track is the statement and you should make it absolutely perfect. If that means five layers of guitar and a three-handed keyboard, so be it. It'll make the stripped-down live version all the more interesting by contrast. Vive la difference.
That!
I hate when a band limits what they do in the studio because they're concerned about replicating it live. I want DT to write impossibly, densely layered music in the studio, and then I want to be impressed when those crazy musical gods somehow pull it off live without dubs or backing tracks.
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the studio track is the statement and you should make it absolutely perfect. If that means five layers of guitar and a three-handed keyboard, so be it.
This x a million.
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I'm aware of TCOT one. When I saw that tour, I think I figured JR would have his keyboards in a guitar sounding mode for the intro.
And I was very disappointed that they used the taped guitar - considering that JR's been toying with the Harpejji for several years, that would've been the perfect opportunity for him to use it.
You shouldn't write music you can't reproduce live without artificial assistance. What's the point of "live" music?
For the most part, I agree with this, altho you have to keep in mind that there will be lots of layering of the same guitar parts, but using different amp combos, different guitars, etc. But I do agree that writing material that would require the band to rely on taped parts or touring musicians is lame.
I want DT to write impossibly, densely layered music in the studio, and then I want to be impressed when those crazy musical gods somehow pull it off live without dubs or backing tracks.
But that's what Dream Team is saying - I don't think he's got an issue with them writing "impossibly, densely layered music in the studio" but rather the fact that this sort of thing can end up causing them to have to use dubs or backing tracks, which is exactly what you apparently don't want to see (nor do I).
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In addition to the previous examples mentioned, other backing guitar tracks in live songs:
I'm quite sure the guitar harmony in Outcry (that Metropolplis-ish part before the first verse) is a backing guitar track.
The guitar feedback bridging As I Am to This Dying Soul is a backing track when played together live.
The intro and pre-second verse riff in Build Me Up, Break Me Down.
Oh, yeah - BMUBMD surprised me on Luna Park! I figure the processed tone must be a bastard to achieve in real-time, so they pump it in. They play intro tapes for These Walls and The Root of All Evil, now, too. All well and good, but I preferred what they used to do on the Octavarium tour. Honestly, I'd rather they just omitted the intro if it's a hassle. Just start These Walls from here - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqoCg7ezIxY - and, likewise, do the Greatest Hit version of TROAE, where it explodes right in. I like the extended outro for Root, though. More of that, please!
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You shouldn't write music you can't reproduce live without artificial assistance. What's the point of "live" music?
For the most part, I agree with this, altho you have to keep in mind that there will be lots of layering of the same guitar parts, but using different amp combos, different guitars, etc. But I do agree that writing material that would require the band to rely on taped parts or touring musicians is lame.
Why is that lame? Studio material is basically the "etched in stone for all of eternity" work, so doing whatever you can to make it as great as possible should always be the goal. Imagine if, when making Dark Side of the Moon, Pink Floyd said, "Hey, we can't perform this live with just the four of us, so let's ditch it."
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I've always preferred the old fashioned way, the way MP did it. However, MP was much better at backing vocals than JP (see: Sacrificed Sons on Score) so I think it's more acceptable now.
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By watching the Manchester concert on Youtube I noticed that JP does really sing sometimes, other times it's the backing track. And I don't mind that at all, losing MP was like losing half the backing vocals, so they simply had to do it.
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Well, now I can say without a doubt that John does NOT lip-sync. Yes, there is a backing track in place as well on some songs to give the other harmonies. And, yes, John is low in the mix, sometimes to the point that you cannot hear his voice coming through. But I was less than 10 feet from him for most of the show last night, and I could hear him singing.
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Mystery solved
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I'm aware of TCOT one. When I saw that tour, I think I figured JR would have his keyboards in a guitar sounding mode for the intro.
And I was very disappointed that they used the taped guitar - considering that JR's been toying with the Harpejji for several years, that would've been the perfect opportunity for him to use it.
Before Count was played live, I imagined they might bring out an acoustic on a stand for Myung to play, which I think they did for Silent Man in '94
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For Count and TKH, I don't get why if they have 4 guys that totally play guitar in the band they don't use it. Why tapes, keyboard guitar, or Another Hand?
As for the thread, yea it's no mystery anymore, it seems to confuse more people than it should. Backing vocals are all on tape, and JP sings along. And it's worth noting James is DEFINITELY actually singing every note you hear of his part, no lip-syncing, no exceptions (and no transpositions which is awesome). I also don't get why Jordan and Mike don't do the backing vocals- they totally could, and then we'd actually have a totally live show!
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The only one that was SUPER DUPER OBVIOUS that there was a backing track over JP's vocals was The Mirror (TEMP - TA - TION, and all of those parts of the songs like that). That's not JP's timbre at all.
But other songs like The Enemy Inside, Trial of Tears, Lifting Shadows of a Dream, Finally Free and other ones are definitely JP.
I'm a bit unsure about JP's vocals on Surrender, Trust & Passion for Illumination Theory. I feel like he is definitely singing, but there is definitely a hint of backing track there as well.
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I also don't get why Jordan and Mike don't do the backing vocals- they totally could, and then we'd actually have a totally live show!
I think it would be great to have Jordan do backing vox. Not sure how good a singer Mike is, but I actually don't want him near a mic. He has a hard enough job following the click and playing his insane drum parts. I wouldn't want the guy to take on any more right now.
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Last Friday at Riverside he was definitely singing. I couldn't really hear the backing track outside of TSF and The Mirror.
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I also don't get why Jordan and Mike don't do the backing vocals- they totally could, and then we'd actually have a totally live show!
I think it would be great to have Jordan do backing vox.
I'd been sooooort of expecting this during... ahhh, might have been the Systematic Chaos era? But I remember him showing off his new rig with loads of different capabilities, and one of his keyboards had this properly exceptional vocoder plugged into it. Might've been Omnisphere, or maybe that's just a name I vaguely remember.
Something else to do with his hands, of course, but seeing as they've got a click I'd expect they could programme the chords so all he or John would have to do is sing. Just makes harmonies a bit bigger. And more reliable.
ETA: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4MnV5eMOjxo Maybe this was it?
ETA2: Yes, I recognise the end! That's exactly what it was. 2008, so SC era's right, too.
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Good point about MM already doing ten billion things. About John singing at Riverside, I was paying special attention, and he was singing, but I think a lot of what you were hearing was a backing track too, but it just blends because neither his mic nor the track is that loud. And the vocoder thing just sounds ridiculous :lol that's the LAST thing I want them to use, but I'm not too worried about that happening.
Also JLB's "temptation" track was even more awesome than the original! I LOVED it. But I'd love even more for it to be live.
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JP is definitely not lip-synching on this tour. ADTOE tour, yeah, for whatever reason.
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I also don't get why Jordan and Mike don't do the backing vocals- they totally could, and then we'd actually have a totally live show!
I think it would be great to have Jordan do backing vox.
I'd been sooooort of expecting this during... ahhh, might have been the Systematic Chaos era? But I remember him showing off his new rig with loads of different capabilities, and one of his keyboards had this properly exceptional vocoder plugged into it. Might've been Omnisphere, or maybe that's just a name I vaguely remember.
Something else to do with his hands, of course, but seeing as they've got a click I'd expect they could programme the chords so all he or John would have to do is sing. Just makes harmonies a bit bigger. And more reliable.
ETA: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4MnV5eMOjxo Maybe this was it?
ETA2: Yes, I recognise the end! That's exactly what it was. 2008, so SC era's right, too.
Or this from the same session
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FaliEHcRWvI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FaliEHcRWvI)
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Good point about MM already doing ten billion things. About John singing at Riverside, I was paying special attention, and he was singing, but I think a lot of what you were hearing was a backing track too, but it just blends because neither his mic nor the track is that loud.
There were definitely times when I could hear JP because of my proximity to him, but he was inaudible through his mic, and you could hear the backing track of mostly James over him. So I get why people might think that he is lip synching. But it's just a case of the backing track being louder than him.
ADTOE tour, yeah, for whatever reason.
Possible, but I highly doubt it. I think it is exactly the same situation as this tour.
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ADTOE tour, yeah, for whatever reason.
Possible, but I highly doubt it. I think it is exactly the same situation as this tour.
This. There is zero reason for anyone to think that he has ever lip synched.
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Also no reason to think he didn't lip-synch during the ADTOE tour. I haven't heard a single recording of a show on that tour where he was even kind of audible.
But we've already had this conversation.
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ADTOE tour, yeah, for whatever reason.
Possible, but I highly doubt it. I think it is exactly the same situation as this tour.
This. There is zero reason for anyone to think that he has ever lip synched.
As I mentioned in my Los Angeles review, I witnessed it a few feet away, so yes he does in some songs, and no on others.
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Good example you can hear both his voice and a James track https://youtu.be/uVB1TAcycVE?t=2h13m47s
edit: another where you can hear both the track and JP https://youtu.be/WwavTaI72Bw?t=2m24s
As for ADTOE, here's an example of harmonies that sound real, but I think they added tracks later in the tour. At this point I think it was only for one or two songs. Although, throughout the whole tour I'm pretty sure The Silent Man and Beneath the Surface were always real. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8RJV86ze39c
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ADTOE tour, yeah, for whatever reason.
Possible, but I highly doubt it. I think it is exactly the same situation as this tour.
This. There is zero reason for anyone to think that he has ever lip synched.
As I mentioned in my Los Angeles review, I witnessed it a few feet away, so yes he does in some songs, and no on others.
Just because you can't hear him doesn't mean he isn't singing.
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If a bear sings in a woods but no-one is around to hear it, does it really make a sound?
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If a bear sings in a woods but no-one is around to hear it, does it really make a sound?
basically
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Just because you can't hear him doesn't mean he isn't singing.
yeah, but at that distance I could tell, especially on The Mirror. Still a great performance though.
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I could hear him on The Mirror.
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On The Mirror, he definitely sings in addition to a backing track that is neither him nor MP.
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The spoken words on the track of The Mirror are most certainly James and they're AWESOME. Even better than the original.