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Dream Theater => Dream Theater => Topic started by: adastra on August 01, 2013, 11:49:06 PM
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I just realized how much I miss Portnoy. Somehow I think he was the SOUL of Dream theater.
I'm going to try to explain why;
When Portnoy was around , I had this feeling like we fans were a lot more important. All the Portnoy's updates, messages etc. etc. made me feel like I was important to him.
Everyone knows that Portnoy loves his fans and he really can show it! I'm not trying to say that DT without Portnoy doesn't care about their fans. But When he was around I almost had this feeling like I was somehow part of Dream Theater.
But I don't get that feeling anymore.
When Portnoy was around the relationship with DT and fans could be described as "We" and now it is more like "Us and them".
But yeah, this was only my opinion :angel:
I'm interested to know what you guys think. :D
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The thread title and the poll question do not match up.
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Both Portnoy and DT seem to be better off without each other. That said, it'd be cool if they reunited for a show or two sometime in the future.
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The thread title and the poll question do not match up.
Sorry, I made a fool out of myself :-[
Both Portnoy and DT seem to be better off without each other. That said, it'd be cool if they reunited for a show or two sometime in the future.
I guess you are right about that. Have they started to talk with each other again?
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This is going to end well.
I do miss MP's contributions to the band, but I love the current lineup as-is too (despite ADTOE being one of my lower ranked DT albums), so it's not a simple yes/no for me. I'm a fan of all DT eras.
I think it's definitely best at this point remaining how it is though, and they couldn't and shouldn't get back together now. DT are continuing along nicely, and MP's been doing well recently too.
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I honestly can't give a solid yes or no answer to this question. I mean, Portnoy is one of my biggest influences on drums. He is the one who got me to accept and try out double bass work. At the same time, it sounds like there were a lot of tensions building in the band, so maybe it was right for him to leave. Which brings me to Mangini. ADTOE is certainly not in my top 3 DT albums, but it was a return to more of their classic sound, which I dig. Mangini himself is a great guy it seems, and certainly a great drummer. I do feel though that his drumming does not have as much feeling as Portnoy's did.
What's happened has happened though - MP is gone and DT has carried on, and they are certainly carrying on better than I thought they would have. I hope to see a long and fruitful relationship with MM and some kickass reunion shows with Portnoy. In the end though, I kinda wish he had stayed and just magically resolved everything with DT and released an album with them to rival their masterpieces.
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I like how the band is now, and I think MM is better than MP on all levels. They're re-energized and happier and as stated above, better off without each other.
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maybe for an anniversary show in the future. but im happy with mangini
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No. I didn't listen to DTs music because I felt a special connection to their former drummer because he made a decent amount of updates and sent messages to fans. I also didn't interpret him sending messages to fans and status updates as the "soul" of DTs music. Sure, the level of connection he provided with fans was cool and all, but that's all it was to me. Just a cool extra. What's more, my opinion of the music and what it does for me was never influenced by the level of connection I might have felt by Portnoys social involvement.
In other words, as an example, I'll feel the same about A Change of Seasons if Mike Portnoy did or did not give me a wink and a thumbs up at a concert.
The band is perfect where it's at now imo. Looking back and wishing for something else would only serve to distract me from what matters most to me; the music.
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The thread title and the poll question do not match up.
This, which has ruined this thread. I miss him in a number of ways, but I don't want him back in the band because they're doing fantastic new stuff. So I can't answer in this poll because I don't know which question I'm answering.
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Funny this thread was started, cuz this was posted on Blabbermouth:
https://blabbermouth.net/news.aspx?mode=Article&newsitemID=193252
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Here's how I see it. I would like Dream Theater to be the band that they appeared to be on the surface, after the Octavarium era. Back then, if you look at the Score documentary, it really feels like the band is together and everything is perfect. Or the making of DVD for Systematic Chaos, everyone seems to be having fun, enjoying themselves, James said it was the most fun he had recording an album since Awake. I loved that Dream Theater, and if the band could be like that, inside and out, that would be fantastic.
But unfortunately, as we know now, not all was well in DT camp, and things seemed to get worse with the Black Clouds era. So if that's how it was going to be in Dream Theater, then no, I certainly wouldn't want that version of Dream Theater to be around.
As of right now, with Mike Portnoy leaving Adrenalin Mob, it really feels like he's having a hard time committing to any one project. I feel like he's going through Band ADD, and I certainly wouldn't want that Mike Portnoy to be back in Dream Theater, out of sheer obligation.
So, that only leaves the current line-up. They're having great chemistry with Mike Mangini, and just because they don't come updating us with minor things every 5 minutes, doesn't mean that they aren't there for the fans. I don't want information on the new album, I don't want snippets. The way they're doing it now, it really feels like September 24th is birthday, and they're preparing a surprise for us. That's all.
But like I said, if we could have Mike Portnoy in the band, and have the band maintain the same kind of energy and spirit that they had after Scenes From A Memory, I'd be all for it. But those days are gone now.
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I like how the band is now, and I think MM is better than MP on all levels. They're re-energized and happier and as stated above, better off without each other.
This. Imagine ADTOE being another SC / BC&SL style album :-\
And as long as they are happier now and continue to make (better) music, I don't really miss MP.
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I will say I miss Portnoy writing music that's in the progressive vein of DT stuff. His latest projects are most excellent and all, but I'd love to hear him back in the mode I've always been fond of. But the great thing about where he's at now in his career, is that anything is possible and he has a million different paths to choose from. In a lot of ways, I like him as much where he's at now in his career as much as when he was with DT. Kinda like a kid moving out of their parents house. You don't want him to leave, but at the same time you want him to go out and experience everything else and see what he accomplishes.
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I like how the band is now, and I think MM is better than MP on all levels. They're re-energized and happier and as stated above, better off without each other.
This. Imagine ADTOE being another SC / BC&SL style album :-\
And as long as they are happier now and continue to make (better) music, I don't really miss MP.
I rank ADTOE right at the same level as SC and BCASL, and prefer certain individual songs from SC and BCASL more than anything on ADTOE, so the quality of DT12 will be pretty important to me.
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I don’t really want any of them stepping into MP’s shoes; one of the problems leading to MP’s need for a break was his obsession in DT matters. I want these guys to have as much free space as a publicly exposed person can have, and I want it just out of my own selfishness because I want them to write at least 12 more records (wishful thinking).
It’s also difficult to compare the way of dealing with fans, since JP and MP are very different personalities. MP has stated more than once in interviews that he is a fan himself, just look at all the photos he shows with some of his idols.
If I want MP back? Hmmm, hard to tell, I like Mangini’s way and he is a hell of a drummer, for me it’s out of question if he is the right replacement for Portnoy. The question would be now if Portnoy would be a good replacement for Mangini. It would be easier if they had just a session drummer and I’m eager to hear Mangini’s input in DT12. Basically I would only like to see Portnoy back if Mangini needed a break and if he was not to be the band leader again.
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Talking musically,well, DT12 is coming and will be the very first album involving the new Mike in the arrangement so I'll just wait to say something. Can't really say if I miss MP since ADTOE drum parts are drum machine only.
Considering I'm a drummer, MP has always been a key figure to me, I loved his drumming badly even in some songs I usually don't like (Never Enough is a great example of it). But no, I really don't want him back now. He decided to go, as someone else asserted, his words he was obsessed with all DT universe and the responsibility grew more than he expected.
Will be cool if they could reunite for a couple of dates in future, but nothing more. Something was broken and can't be fixed and never will be IMO.
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ADTOE drum parts are drum machine only.
Sorry, but that's absolutely wrong.
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ADTOE drum parts are drum machine only.
Sorry, but that's absolutely wrong.
I'm pretty sure I am not. I was talking about the arrengement itself, not when they recorded.
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Same as previously stated: I do miss Portnoy, don't want him back in the band.
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Both Portnoy and DT seem to be better off without each other.
This. I don't even want a one- or two-off reunion show. They're just done. MM has filled the gap MP left in the best way possible, and MP is having fun with his many projects.
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Absolutely not for the moment. DT are fine and they are enjoying themselves way more without MP. MP is creating a gazillion new bands and having fun as well.
Maybe in the future, who knows, they could be doing something together once again.. but for now, hell no.
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I think MP was an instrumental part of Dream Theater and his contribution in both the musical sound and the management life of the band cannot be underestimate. Still, I don't miss him and I don't want him to be back in the band on a stable position.
As for one-off reunion I wouldn't mind them sometime in the future, but I don't see any happening.
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After his public display the year following his departure... Absolutely not.
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I think MP was an instrumental part of Dream Theater and his contribution in both the musical sound and the management life of the band cannot be underestimate. Still, I don't miss him and I don't want him to be back in the band on a stable position.
As for one-off reunion I wouldn't mind them sometime in the future, but I don't see any happening.
The very hardcore fans could never underestimate his dedication to the whole DT world, as a fan himself, he understood our point of view and tried to get us as closed as possible. Honestly I could never forget this. The way he decided to go was disappointing to me, I felt like a bitter flavour for it.
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Where is the "Never" option?
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Where is the "Never" option?
LOL that was a good one ;D
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Where is the "Never" option?
Mike will hurt his feelings when he sees that :-[ (yeah, i'm sure he reads DTF)
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Where is the "Never" option?
Mike will hurt his feelings when he sees that :-[ (yeah, i'm sure he reads DTF)
I think he was looking for the "Never" option as well ::) :angel:
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In answer to the thread question;
Depends how the new album is.
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Where is the "Never" option?
Mike will hurt his feelings when he sees that :-[ (yeah, i'm sure he reads DTF)
I think he was looking for the "Never" option as well ::) :angel:
Considering just a few posts above a link was posted from blabbermouth where MP clearly states he would be in again, that's a very ignorant statement.
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maybe for an anniversary show in the future. but im happy with mangini
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The band seems much more in tune with each other right now. There was separation in writing and it seemed that some members (Myung) effort in the studio were less. I think they were less engaged when one person takes over every aspect.
Do I loe Mike still? Yes, but I'd rather move forward now.
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I just realized how much I miss Portnoy. Somehow I think he was the SOUL of Dream theater.
I'm going to try to explain why;
When Portnoy was around , I had this feeling like we fans were a lot more important. All the Portnoy's updates, messages etc. etc. made me feel like I was important to him.
Everyone knows that Portnoy loves his fans and he really can show it! I'm not trying to say that DT without Portnoy doesn't care about their fans. But When he was around I almost had this feeling like I was somehow part of Dream Theater.
But I don't get that feeling anymore.
When Portnoy was around the relationship with DT and fans could be described as "We" and now it is more like "Us and them".
But yeah, this was only my opinion :angel:
I'm interested to know what you guys think. :D
I completely get your point of view and I agree that he interacted with the fans on a level that the other band members do not. Both in this regard and a musical one, he was the soul of DT. However, that was also part of what turned a lot of people off-- especially when you focus on their last three albums with him. Because I did not enjoy those albums, it didn't matter much to me at the time his level of interaction with the fans; I was barely listening to the band's new music. So while I do miss MP in one way, in the most important way, I think the two parties are better off. I'm really enjoying MP's projects, and I love ADToE and hope that I will love DT12 too.
I don't want MP to rejoin DT. I want him to keep doing FC and Winery Dogs. MM very rightly pointed out on the day of his audition that he will not be what "he (MP) was in this." And we can't expect him to be. As it is now, a lot of people grossly overestimated his songwriting contributions to the new album. Those people could find themselves disappointed with the switch if they don't like the songs. My point is that less MP input and more MM input (on the drums at least) is the way to go right now. Of course, it's impossible to say whether DT made better music with MP or MM at this stage since we don't have enough material. But my point is I think both are headed in the right directions musically and I wouldn't want to see them get together again.
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I don't get Portnoy. Maybe he is wrongly quoted or something but "I would join the band in a heartbeat" and "I've had my break". To me this sounds like DT is number one and he is willing to leave everything behind (A-mob, TWD etc.) if DT wants him back. Didn't he say in another interview that winery dogs is his number one priority?
I wouldn't want to be in a band with that guy.
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To be quite honest, I don't blame him for keeping DT as his number one. A band he was in for 25 years is always going to be close to his heart, and if the opportunity to rejoin DT arose (I don't think it will), nobody could really criticise him for taking it.
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He likes to talk about a band in terms of "wife" or "baby".
If I had a new wife after being married for 25 years, my new wife wouldn't be ok with me going back to my old wife, if she were to change her mind, just because we were married for so long.
If they are serious with TWD and intend to keep it at a full time basis, I don't think the other members would be ok with MP leaving if the opportunity arose to join DT again.
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That analogy doesn't really work, apart from at the most basic level. :lol
Certainly not in this situation.
I really don't think the other two guys in TWD would begrudge him a return to DT. I may be completely off-base here, but that's the way I see it.
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NO.
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That analogy doesn't really work, apart from at the most basic level. :lol
Certainly not in this situation.
I really don't think the other two guys in TWD would begrudge him a return to DT. I may be completely off-base here, but that's the way I see it.
Agreed. Bands are not analogous to monogamous relationships.
:marriageanalogy:
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Ok, to expand on what I said last night, I do miss Mike. I miss the energy he had, I miss his sense of humor, I miss all the stuff he did for the band.
But, I don't want him back in DT. He left, Mangini's in, and even though I personally like ADTOE less than most Dream Theater albums, I think the band's in a good place right now, and I wouldn't want that to change.
So, these are my thoughts.
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Portnoy was my favourite member of the band until around September 2010.
After that he just made it worse and worse for himself.
If *you* want a break from the band - don't bitch about the rest of them in the press because *they* don't want to.
What I absolutely DO NOT miss : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R5RLln_Hk7w
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In answer to the thread question;
Depends how the new album is.
If the new album is amazing and Live at Luna park is really well done, I think a lot of people are going to forget about MP.
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I miss Mike Portnoy.
I don't want him back in Dream Theater.
Mainly, because I like Mike Mangini too, and don't want him to leave.
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^ that
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Mike Portnoy is a great drummer but I've noticed that he wasn't inventive anymore. His drumming looked the same and when you hear the stuff he plays on the Neal Morse album, he didn't do something new. I've heard it all before. With Mike Mangini in DT, I think there's gonna be a fresh wind through the band and hopefully we hear some awesome heavy prog!! Thats something I missed on the last albums with Mike P. It looked to me that he want them to be a heavy band and not an heavy prog band.
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^ That is true.
My dad was listening to a Neal Morse CD that i'd never heard before and I instantly knew the drummer was Portnoy.
He does rely on the same fills a lot of the time.
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No and I don't believe it will ever happen. I miss the "in your face" drum mixes on the albums because I am a drummer. And based on ADTOE I can't really say if musically I prefer one over the other because I don't think we got a good taste of MM's potential contributions.
Some say they miss MPs interaction with the fans but I really don't. Sure, I would like to hear more from someone in the band, but I always found MP's interactions to be too focused on himself rather than the band and that got annoying. The guys now speak of the band and each other. Don't recall too many times MP highlighted the other band mates because of his narcissistic personality.
Also, the guys in DT are getting older. Touring is harder. They probably are at a point they want to get as much enjoyment as possible from writing, recording and touring. I don't see them inviting potential stress and conflict back into the group.
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I voted no.
That being said, I can't help but feel sorry for MP that his projects haven't netted him the success he had with DT. The projects he's been in have been interesting and most have shown real quality but it's unfortunate to see him playing tiny venues to poor turnout. He's earned better I think.
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In answer to the thread question;
Depends how the new album is.
If the new album is amazing and Live at Luna park is really well done, I think a lot of people are going to forget about MP.
You never forget about someone who was with a band for 25 years and 10 albums.
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But 2 years of negativity can undo a lot of good work.
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level of fan interaction, to me, is a bonus and is secondary to what people actually bring to the music. i love tool just as much as i love DT and there isn't one similarity between the 2 when it comes to fan interaction (among other things). if things in DT are much better now than they were in the last few years with MP, then i'm fine with less interaction. i don't need to know when they take a sh*t...
regarding that blabbermouth post, IMHO, if MP really didn't want to talk about the dream theater "situation," he should really just respond with "next question." this whole "i dont want to talk about what they're doing now coz now they're trying to show they don't need me." is just lame and victimizes himself. HE QUIT. ugh...
edit: yes, i paraphrased and mixed context, but that's how i read it. it's just another example of "DT was all me for 25 years. how dare they move on."
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But 2 years of negativity can undo a lot of good work.
I only care about the music, so I don't care about what happened after that. And I enjoyed MP's contributions right until the end too, so I didn't have a problem with that side either. Just my opinion, of course.
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I like how the band is now, and I think MM is better than MP on all levels. They're re-energized and happier and as stated above, better off without each other.
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Where is the "Never" option?
Mike will hurt his feelings when he sees that :-[ (yeah, i'm sure he reads DTF)
I think he was looking for the "Never" option as well ::) :angel:
Considering just a few posts above a link was posted from blabbermouth where MP clearly states he would be in again, that's a very ignorant statement.
Considering MP wanted to join DT back the very first months he actually left, you can pardon me, but that was sarcastic.
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The stuff though about DT being Mikes baby; it *was*. To continue with his wonderful relationship analogy, he started to fool around with too many others in the DT open marriage in the end. Despite MP giving it his all, which is undebatable, he also was spread out way more thin than any other DT member outside of the band. If anything, what he is doing now is good for him because he can do all that to the fullest.
I would like to see a reunion in 15-20 years, or whenever MM gets done with the band (if ever). I miss MPs devotion, but not him steering the DT Vessel into uncharted waters that the ship is not suited to handle just because he likes those waters at that present time.
Switching now would be a terrible thing to MM, and everyone is at a good place it seems.
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....
I would like to see a reunion in 15-20 years, or whenever MM gets done with the band (if ever). I miss MPs devotion, but not him steering the DT Vessel into uncharted waters that the ship is not suited to handle just because he likes those waters at that present time.
That's exactly my same thought.
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The stuff though about DT being Mikes baby; it *was*.
I'm not debating MP's dedication to the band or his "steering," but like someone else mentioned, he never really gave credit to anyone else in the band for the roles they played, musically speaking. Just another reason why I don't miss him.
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It's a shame that I even have to put this out there, but it seems like it is always necessary when these types of topics come up: (1) Keep it civil. And carefully watch what you say. Bashing of either the band or of Mike Portnoy will not be tolerated. (2) Keep it on topic. This is not a thread about which drummer is better (and such a thread topic would be in poor taste and would be deleted anyway), whether Portnoy is going to come back to dream theater some day, or whatever.
In answer to the thread topic: No. Whether you want to go with the question in the thread title or the one in the poll, the answer is no. I deeply appreciate everything Portnoy did for the band and the fans. I deeply appreciate how he changed how many, including myself, think of drumming. I love a lot of things about him. But the band is firing on all cylindars right now and all of the members seem overjoyed and content with where things are going. It is a great time to be a Dream Theater fan, and it is a great time to be a Mike Portnoy fan. And it is a great time to keep both of those things separate.
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If he hadn't left, I'd be fine with him staying
Now mangini is here, i'm fine with mangini.
Nice and simple.
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ADTOE drum parts are drum machine only.
Sorry, but that's absolutely wrong.
Eviljust, you are mistaken. This has been explained by the band numerous times. To this day, I don't understand why a small number of fans seem to think the above is true. Here are the facts: When initially writing, JP programs some initial thoughts for basic drum patterns. Mangini listened to them and then wrote his own drum parts, with input from the rest of the band. Sometimes, he stayed with the basic pattern JP had programmed, and used that as the skeleton for what became an obviously more elaborate drum part. Sometimes, he did his own thing and wrote something different. But what was originally given to him was just a skeleton and does not really resemble what Mike ultimately recorded. If you want to discuss this further, do a search for one of the threads where discussion of this issue would be on topic and discuss it there.
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OK, here's a couple scenarios where I would totally welcome MP back into DT, without feeling like Mangini got done dirty:
1.) A few years go by and Mangini decides he's had enough of live on the road, and wants to return to academia. I'd respect that, and I'd hope DT would go to MP straight away.
2.) A few years go by, and the band decides to call it quits for awhile. Then a few years more go by, and a bunch of guys who once played in DT decide to get together and make a DT album. I'd be open to a line-up consisting of any combination of past and present DT members, so long as Dominici wasn't included :P
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I don't get Portnoy. Maybe he is wrongly quoted or something but "I would join the band in a heartbeat" and "I've had my break". To me this sounds like DT is number one and he is willing to leave everything behind (A-mob, TWD etc.) if DT wants him back. Didn't he say in another interview that winery dogs is his number one priority?
I wouldn't want to be in a band with that guy.
Good point.
What if, for example, Mike Mangini had a sudden health issue late this year that required him to retire from live touring and he decided to leave the band, leading the band to ask Mike Portnoy to rejoin the band for the extensive touring in 2014? Would he ditch the Prog Nation at Sea thing, whatever touring Transatlantic has planned and whatever else he already has in the works, in order to rejoin Dream Theater in that heartbeat? Or would he tell them no?
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ADTOE drum parts are drum machine only.
Sorry, but that's absolutely wrong.
Eviljust, you are mistaken. This has been explained by the band numerous times. To this day, I don't understand why a small number of fans seem to think the above is true. Here are the facts: When initially writing, JP programs some initial thoughts for basic drum patterns. Mangini listened to them and then wrote his own drum parts, with input from the rest of the band. Sometimes, he stayed with the basic pattern JP had programmed, and used that as the skeleton for what became an obviously more elaborate drum part. Sometimes, he did his own thing and wrote something different. But what was originally given to him was just a skeleton and does not really resemble what Mike ultimately recorded. If you want to discuss this further, do a search for one of the threads where discussion of this issue would be on topic and discuss it there.
I actually have never heard of this. In one of the last studio part, one of them asserted this was going to be the first album involving MM in the songwriting process.
Thanks for clearing it, always good to learn something ;)
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No. I don't want him back. Way too much baggage.
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2.) A few years go by, and the band decides to call it quits for awhile. Then a few years more go by, and a bunch of guys who once played in DT decide to get together and make a DT album. I'd be open to a line-up consisting of any combination of past and present DT members, so long as Dominici wasn't included :P
CHRIS COLLINS! :D
But yeah, I think those two scenarios are the only reasonable ones really. Alternatively I'd be very happy to see one-off reunions on stage or whatever, if both the band and MP were able to do that without it being weird on a personal level. I think if they could get over what happened and do something like that, it would be pretty great.
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I have a feeling that " JP programmed the drums on ADTOE " will live on.
I've heard DT haters before say that " Labrie is so lazy - he only writes one song per album. "
::)
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I have a feeling that " JP programmed the drums on ADTOE " will live on.
I've heard DT haters before say that " Labrie is so lazy - he only writes one song per album. "
::)
LaBrie is so lazy. He only sings for 10% of each song. :neverusethis:
I've personally never seen that argument about how much he writes, and I don't really care either. He's the singer, and he sings, and he sings well. Anything else is a bonus, not a necessity for my full respect for him as a performer and member of DT.
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It's a tough decision for me. I do miss some things about Portnoy for sure, his on-stage presence was a lot of fun especially, but I'm ready for the new Mangini era of Dream Theater to carry on, unhindered. I hope that we get a reunion show one day, at the least.
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I really do appreciate what MP did with the band but I don't miss him and I never want him back.
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Simple answer: No.
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I miss him occasionally, but I do not want him to return to the band. He was too much of a control freak (mistakenly referred by him as OCD, which is a true disorder and something super nasty) and his last years in DT were basically him driving the whole thing and taking the shots on everything. Things might've ended up differently for him if he wasn't so obsessed with him being in control of everything (bootlegs, setlists, press, tours, etc.). And, as many might agree, his "hey, my voice has balls, let me sing along with James so our music can have more balls" approach wasn't the best thing that happened to DT.
Also, his drumming became stale in the last records. I was listening to SDOIT the other day and was in awe, the drumming sounds so fresh, so inspired and so creative in that record that it's ridiculous. His live playing began to suffer, and this I began to realize until my "OMG MP BEST DRUMMER EVER DRUM GOD" phase faded away. I used to defend him (and everyone else in the band) so blindly that it was ridiculous :lol He is a great drummer, but his lack of practice (he has said he doesn't practice anymore) began shaping in sloppy performances. I remember seeing A Nightmare to Remember live, and it was...you know, sloppy. The thing IMO that always made Portnoy shine was his drive on stage and his creativity into composing drum parts. I understand why he is such a big influence for young drummers nowadays, but truth is that he's no longer in the top tier of drummers like he was back in the 90s.
That being said, his Ytse Jam bootlegs thing and his communication with fans is something I do miss. A lot. But hey, give and take.
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Only if the drum sonics are inferior again on this album. That would be 2 out of 2. One of the primary reasons I loved this band
is because the drummer had an equal voice and the drums were unapologetic, loud, complicated and in your face right along
with all the other instruments. I crave that from DT.
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Didn't we just have this thread not long ago?
And, like, 5 other times since he left?
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Here's where I'm at with the MP stuff:
1) I think MP was great with the fans and he obviously worked very hard to make them happy, which I appreciate and admire.
2) I think MP is responsible for a few of the elements of the sound of SC and BCSL that I disliked. If DT continues along the musical path that they started with ADTOE, then I will be very happy, because I wasn't too fond of the direction I thought they were headed with the previous two albums.
3) Taking MP back into the band would require kicking MM out, which he doesn't deserve and isn't expecting from the interviews he's given. He's also extremely talented (moreso than MP in my opinion but there's no way to quantify that).
4) DT seems to be really happy with where they are now, and as bosky said, they're firing on all cylinders. I wouldn't want to stop this momentum.
So no, if it were up to me, I wouldn't want MP back in DT. They've gone their separate ways and that's probably where they'll stay, and I think everyone is better off for it.
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Although I think it will not happen, I'd love to see him back.
DT is not really DT without him. He is irreplaceable. The same with Petrucci if one day he leaves.
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Didn't we just have this thread not long ago?
And, like, 5 other times since he left?
Yes, that is correct.
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i also think that by not commenting in some positive fashion about where DT is now it probably doesn't help his case to get back in at some point. if i were DT, i'd think he would want to just skip over it a la when DLR got back in VH. if he embraced it more, i think it would show something.
maybe i'm wrong...
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Simple answer: No.
:clap:
What I can't figure with MP is why he starts bands and so easily leaves them. He'd said that AMOB was his #1 priority, and then a few months later, forms TWD and leaves AMOB because of a scheduling issue. The guy can't make up his mind. He leaves DT after 25 years because he's bored, then forms two bands within a year of each other, says he's focused on one, then leaves that one because he wants to focus on the other. That's just weird.
I love the guy, and his talent, but I don't want him back in DT. DT is too focused for him now.
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I voted yes as to whether I missed MP or not.But,as far as wishing him back I say no.At least not now,as I really like ADTOE.It just seemed fresh to me,and I like JP's Lyrics.I'm very interested in hearing the new album.Then I might be able to make a more informed decision.
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Here's the thing. If Mike Portnoy came back into the band, would it be the same Dream Theater that you knew and loved when he was in it? Hell no. First of all, there was all that tension among the DT that you knew and loved. Everything seemed fine on the surface, but obviously things weren't fine at all. And second, after everything that's happened since the breakup, they've all changed, and I guarantee that it just wouldn't be the same DT you grew to love if MP came back. So the only thing we can get out of it is cosmetic nostalgia, seeing MP back on that stage with the guys. Beyond that, it would not be the same. And it probably would not be for the better.
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yea, i agree. i don't know how MP could exist in the new DT. i couldn't imagine them just handing the controls right back to him.
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I would only be for it if it was natural.
ie. Mangini decided to move on and MP and the band had previously worked things out so that he was a natural choice
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You never know how accurate your perceptions are of a band's inner workings since they're generally based on sound bytes and interview snippets, but I was under the impression that Portnoy was a) largely responsible for certain elements of DT's music that I didn't much care for, b) a suppressing voice when it came to potentially "getting outside of their box," and c) the primary source of friction between band members. Again, I don't know how true any of that actually is, but those were the impressions I had. And yes he really seemed to go the extra mile for fans, but his obnoxious personality definitely grated on me at times.
In a way it's sad that they had to part ways after having played together for so long, but I think DT is probably better off at this juncture. Although I suppose the new album's quality will shape my view on that one way or another. But they certainly seem happy and "re-energized" or whatever.
-J
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No.
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I would only be for it if it was natural.
ie. Mangini decided to move on and MP and the band had previously worked things out so that he was a natural choice
Yeah that's a good point, I think at this point it would break my heart to see DT fire MM after getting to see what a great drummer and great all around human being he is. Regardless of how I feel about MP being back, I'd really feel bad for MM unless the situation was like what you described, natural and mutual.
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I'd only agree to a DT with MP [ i'm a poet and I never realised ]. .If MM left of his own accord and the band had settled all differences with MP and he didn't *immediately* return to being the control freak he was before.
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Although I think it will not happen, I'd love to see him back.
DT is not really DT without him. He is irreplaceable. The same with Petrucci if one day he leaves.
I see DT as completely valid in it's current state. Not the same, but still DT. Take JP out and it is just over and done. forever. amen.
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Although I think it will not happen, I'd love to see him back.
DT is not really DT without him. He is irreplaceable. The same with Petrucci if one day he leaves.
I see DT as completely valid in it's current state. Not the same, but still DT. Take JP out and it is just over and done. forever. amen.
Mike Portnoy definitely added a unique drumming style to DT, but frankly, when hearing a DT song for the first time, I didn't go, "Oh man, check out that drumming!" I went, "Check out that crazy guitar and keyboard work!" And then later, "Check out that unique vocalist."
So IMO, JLB, JP and JR better define what DT is than MP ever did. Musically speaking, I mean.
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I miss him occasionally, but I do not want him to return to the band. He was too much of a control freak (mistakenly referred by him as OCD, which is a true disorder and something super nasty)
OCD is an anxiety disorder that manifests itself in many different ways. From what I know of MP, and obviously none of us really know him that well personally with the exception of a few, he definitely does have OCD. I wish he would refer to it as less of a cute quirk and more of an actual disorder because a lot of people really do suffer from it.
His alcoholism, obsession about things and control, and always being in constant motion are definitely traits of OCD. Of course, OCD is not and should not be an excuse for how you treat people or situations. I believe along with a lot of others that he was out of line in a lot of his dealings with the band and its members before and after the split.
Both Portnoy and DT seem to be better off without each other.
This. I don't even want a one- or two-off reunion show. They're just done. MM has filled the gap MP left in the best way possible
I agree. I don't want a reunion show because like MP said about KM, if there was a reunion it would be all about KM and it should be about the band. A reunion show with MP would be just about MP and I am enjoying the rest of the members being more celebrated.
Of course I have seen them with MP five times so I have that desire filled already.
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Mike Portnoy definitely added a unique drumming style to DT, but frankly, when hearing a DT song for the first time, I didn't go, "Oh man, check out that drumming!" I went, "Check out that crazy guitar and keyboard work!" And then later, "Check out that unique vocalist."
So frankly, I'd say JLB, JP and JR better define what DT is than MP ever did. Musically speaking, I mean.
Agreed. And throw Kevin Moore into the mix for those of us who got into DT back in the early 90s. I know that when I first heard Dream Theater, the two things that grabbed me were JLB's voice and Kevin Moore's unique keyboard sounds. Sure, the combination of every instrument plus JLB's voice created the magic that sucked me in, but when isolating each individual, LaBrie and Moore were who caught my attention the most at first.
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Agreed. And throw Kevin Moore into the mix for those of us who got into DT back in the early 90s. I know that when I first heard Dream Theater, the two things that grabbed me were JLB's voice and Kevin Moore's unique keyboard sounds. Sure, the combination of every instrument plus JLB's voice created the magic that sucked me in, but when isolating each individual, LaBrie and Moore were who caught my attention the most at first.
Yeah, definitely. But that's the whole point. When Moore left, DT's sound changed quite a bit. And IF Jordan Rudess left, the change in sound would be equally as dramatic. And sure, one can say, "The change in the sound of the drums was dramatic on Turn of Evens (har har), but that was due to the way it was written and the mix. Like I always say, ADTOE was not an indicator of anything. It wasn't an indicator of what DT's drumming will be like from now on, it wasn't an indicator of JLB not being able to sing as well, and it wasn't an indicator of DT playing it safe from here on out. As far as I'm concerned, on September 24th, we'll find out exactly what the new DT will be like from here on out.
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Did anybody check out that Blabbermouth link posted on the first page?
Mike was also asked whether he would one day be willing to reunite with DREAM THEATER and rejoin the band as their drummer. "Sure," he replied. "I would do it in a heartbeat. They are the ones that have closed the door on it. I've only needed a break, and I've had that break. So I'm ready, willing and able. But I honestly don't think they ever will; they've closed their door on it and I think they're too headstrong in having to prove themselves without me.
It sucks, I love him to death but every time it appears that he's mellowed and made peace with the whole situation, he has to say something like that. Sure, maybe we were anxious to hear what DT would put out after his leave, but that still doesn't equate to having something to prove when the whole band, not just MP, is generally considered to have some of the most accomplished and capable musicians in the world. And it's been almost 3 years already! We got a long as fuck tour, a great album (imo of course, and soon to be 2 ;)), and a live album coming out soon as well.
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Did anybody check out that Blabbermouth link posted on the first page?
Mike was also asked whether he would one day be willing to reunite with DREAM THEATER and rejoin the band as their drummer. "Sure," he replied. "I would do it in a heartbeat. They are the ones that have closed the door on it. I've only needed a break, and I've had that break. So I'm ready, willing and able. But I honestly don't think they ever will; they've closed their door on it and I think they're too headstrong in having to prove themselves without me.
It sucks, I love him to death but every time it appears that he's mellowed and made peace with the whole situation, he has to say something like that. Sure, maybe we were anxious to hear what DT would put out after his leave, but that still doesn't equate to having something to prove when the whole band, not just MP, is generally considered to have some of the most accomplished and capable musicians in the world. And it's been almost 3 years already! We got a long as fuck tour, a great album (imo of course, and soon to be 2 ;)), and a live album coming out soon as well.
It's also his opinion, and we shouldn't spin it out of context and start a whole big discussion about what an "awful human being he is."
Yes, it's full of crap, and maybe not all that thought out. (Like not considering the fact that they can't just fire Mangini on the spot like that.) But it is what it is, and I'd rather he wasn't afraid to speak his opinion, than having people freak out over it, and then forcing him to watch every little thing that he says. Not saying you're doing that, but knowing this forum, it's almost inevitable.
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It's also his opinion, and we shouldn't spin it out of context and start a whole big discussion about what an "awful human being he is."
Yes, it's full of crap, and maybe not all that thought out. (Like not considering the fact that they can't just fire Mangini on the spot like that.) But it is what it is, and I'd rather he wasn't afraid to speak his opinion, than having people freak out over it, and then forcing him to watch every little thing that he says. Not saying you're doing that, but knowing this forum, it's almost inevitable.
Oh yeah, I agree with you. If there's one thing I admire about MP, it's that he's always open in regards to how he feels. But it's that same trait of his that manages to stir up the pot again. As a musician of his caliber and recognition, he should be able to edit himself in a respectable and presentable manner without neutering his point of view. As one of the fans who wasn't picking apart everything he's said through all of this and tried to be as unbiased as possible, it's really disappointing to read stuff like that from someone you hold in such high regard after all this time. But I will say that Blabbermouth deserves a lot of the blame for constantly asking shit like this every single time they get a chance to talk to him.
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I just realized how much I miss Portnoy. Somehow I think he was the SOUL of Dream theater.
I'm going to try to explain why;
When Portnoy was around , I had this feeling like we fans were a lot more important. All the Portnoy's updates, messages etc. etc. made me feel like I was important to him.
Everyone knows that Portnoy loves his fans and he really can show it! I'm not trying to say that DT without Portnoy doesn't care about their fans. But When he was around I almost had this feeling like I was somehow part of Dream Theater.
But I don't get that feeling anymore.
When Portnoy was around the relationship with DT and fans could be described as "We" and now it is more like "Us and them".
But yeah, this was only my opinion :angel:
I'm interested to know what you guys think. :D
I don't feel that at all. It's all just advertising, that's all.
He only "cares" about the fans who agree with everything he says and does - otherwise you get banned.
But that's just my opinion.
When I heard he'd "left" DT I was shocked and thought things wouldn't be the same. But they got better. I love the chemistry within the band now and I can't wait to hear what MM comes up with this time.
I'd rather MP stay in The Winery Dogs- I like that album.
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I just hate how he turns everything that DT do into being about HIM.
THEY won't let me back in the band [ because they've got mangini now ]
THEY won't go on a break [ which only he wanted anyway ]
THEY never talk to each other any more [ they don't talk to you..they get along much better now funnily enough ].
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I just hate how he turns everything that DT do into being about HIM.
THEY won't let me back in the band [ because they've got mangini now ]
THEY won't go on a break [ which only he wanted anyway ]
THEY never talk to each other any more [ they don't talk to you..they get along much better now funnily enough ].
Well, while his words were very poorly chosen, you can't blame him for talking about himself in relation to DT when the question is about him and relates to DT.
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^ Even so - he did always twist it to make himself the victim in every situation...
I want the band to split up for a few years so we can take a break and come back stronger but THEY don't want to ( and with good reason...) etc...
Just because one person thinks a few years off might be a good idea - doesn't mean the other four are the villains for not wanting to carry on.
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Look, we all know that MP wears his heart on his sleeve and tends to take things personal even when he shouldn't. Doesn't mean we should raise the knife at every little thing he says.
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:rollin :rollin
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Not a chance. Portnoy tried to put my favorite band on hold for 4 years. That's 2 or maybe 3 albums that would never have been made. If he came back he might try it again; he might find himself still burned out. Thanks for the memories, Portnoy, but stay away please.
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Also - some bands are like cover bands when they reform down the line.
DT were wise not to take a few years off and come back "stronger". IMO they would have lost all the momentum they'd been building up for 25 odd years.
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If DT12 turns out to be a major letdown, we might see some people calling for MP. But given how great ADTOE was and Luna Park will be, I doubt it.
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Only if you are of the mindset that DT11 wasn't much cop - which isn't a popular opinion.
Besides - MP only did arranging. He did no melodic writing at all.
Getting him back would only change the arrangements and maybe bring back the loud drums.
However - if DT12 turns out to be poor - which I hardly think it will - it will give MP fanboys some ammo.
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I chose YES due to the robotic-low-tone-mixed-drumming in ADTOE.
But I will have to wait till DT12 comes out to answer properly.
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Here's the thing. If Mike Portnoy came back into the band, would it be the same Dream Theater that you knew and loved when he was in it?
No, because it really no longer was for the last 3 years he spent in the band anyway, sadly.
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What I can't figure with MP is why he starts bands and so easily leaves them. He'd said that AMOB was his #1 priority, and then a few months later, forms TWD and leaves AMOB because of a scheduling issue. The guy can't make up his mind. He leaves DT after 25 years because he's bored, then forms two bands within a year of each other, says he's focused on one, then leaves that one because he wants to focus on the other. That's just weird.
Wolven, Mike Portnoy is certainly not above criticism. But what you have posted is just inaccurate. Saying he left DT because he was "bored" is an unfair mischaracterization. He left because he felt "burned out on DT" and felt that he needed a break and could not go on with a new album on the schedule the band had set. You are free to disagree with the validity of that, but that is not the same thing as leaving because he is "bored." And saying he left AMOB purely because of a "scheling issue" is just as inaccurate. Again, you may not agree with his reasoning, but if you are going to do that, please be more accurate when describing his reasoning.
...his obnoxious personality definitely grated on me at times.
J, I'm not going to issue a formal warning as long as this doesn't continue, but that post crosses the line. Again, it's not that Mike Portnoy is beyond criticism. He isn't. You don't have to agree with or like everything about him. But disagreeing with actions is one thing. Singling him out because of his personality and calling him "obnoxious" is just insulting. Don't get into attacks that are of a personal nature, please. That definitely crosses the line.
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I miss him occasionally, but I do not want him to return to the band. He was too much of a control freak (mistakenly referred by him as OCD, which is a true disorder and something super nasty)
OCD is an anxiety disorder that manifests itself in many different ways. From what I know of MP, and obviously none of us really know him that well personally with the exception of a few, he definitely does have OCD. I wish he would refer to it as less of a cute quirk and more of an actual disorder because a lot of people really do suffer from it.
The bolded part is key, and I think without more details from MP himself, in a focused personal time,
we cannot definitively diagnosis him with OCD. OCD has become common speak akin to ADHD and bipolar in that it's an adjective for some people's rather normal state(s) that a subjective viewer thinks is abnormal.
MP worked very hard, and cared very much while in DT; these are things we can for sure say. Workaholic and perfectionist fits. I don't agree with applying medical terms to a public figure, as it kind of cheapens and arm chair quarterbacks the field. :-[
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I chose YES due to the robotic-low-tone-mixed-drumming in ADTOE.
But I will have to wait till DT12 comes out to answer properly.
There are so many reasons for wanting MP back but this is a silly reason.
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DT with MP was getting really stale at the end. Doesn't even matter how much of that was MP's influence, I am just happy that getting MM into the band gave them a fresh blood infusion, because I was about to completely drop out on them.
I just wish MP had taken some time off and prepare a "MP Mark II", with fresh drumming up his sleeve. The bands he's been at this point are, IMHO, good or bad because of other band members' performance and songwriting; his drumming was mostly plug-and-play of his usual fills and stuff.
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Some opinions here I don't get and it's saddening me a bit..
I've enjoyed plenty of moments, in many years with the Man entertaining the whole arena, and yes maybe a little 'over the top'..
Everytime I hear the drum pattern at the beginning of TGP I'm overwhelmed by the creativity of Mr. Portnoy, and that's just a bit from dozens.
Years and years I've lurked on his forum and enjoyed the Man's posts to every question from many fans and issues..
I'm oke with the new situation, and I see no reason for having him back as the band found some new spirit and energy..a new balance.
but Mike Portnoy has something special for me... so I would wish we we're a little careful in what we are saying about this Man from we've enjoyed en still enjoying a lot of great music.
But may'be that's just me and was it the same Mike who's got it right with his 'Never Enough'.
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Holy crap, dude. I know you only have 12 posts and thus may not know, but ...
never.
under any circumstance.
use "Never Enough" in an MP-related argument. :lol
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"The Man"? Is that what we're calling him now?
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Holy crap, dude. I know you only have 12 posts and thus may not know, but ...
never.
under any circumstance.
use "Never Enough" in an MP-related argument. :lol
"The Man"? Is that what we're calling him now?
sorry.. maybe that was a little bit 'too much' indeed :)
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No, he can stay out. Mangini is excellent and Dream Theater are moving forward without Portnoy.
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DT with MP was getting really stale at the end. Doesn't even matter how much of that was MP's influence, I am just happy that getting MM into the band gave them a fresh blood infusion, because I was about to completely drop out on them.
Yeah, basically this. I'm someone who loved BC&SL, but the band seemed to be in a rut in some ways, and MP realised that. He wanted to give them a boost by changing things up with a break - they weren't willing to go for that, but by him leaving they changed things up in a different way and have continued more fresh than they were before.
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I miss him occasionally, but I do not want him to return to the band. He was too much of a control freak (mistakenly referred by him as OCD, which is a true disorder and something super nasty)
OCD is an anxiety disorder that manifests itself in many different ways. From what I know of MP, and obviously none of us really know him that well personally with the exception of a few, he definitely does have OCD. I wish he would refer to it as less of a cute quirk and more of an actual disorder because a lot of people really do suffer from it.
The bolded part is key, and I think without more details from MP himself, in a focused personal time,
we cannot definitively diagnosis him with OCD. OCD has become common speak akin to ADHD and bipolar in that it's an adjective for some people's rather normal state(s) that a subjective viewer thinks is abnormal.
MP worked very hard, and cared very much while in DT; these are things we can for sure say. Workaholic and perfectionist fits. I don't agree with applying medical terms to a public figure, as it kind of cheapens and arm chair quarterbacks the field. :-[
I think there is a happy medium to your argument which I tried to make in my argument. I didn't diagnose him with OCD but sometimes the shoe seems to fit and he practically mentions it in every interview. Does my opinion matter that much? Of course not. I made sure to include that none of us know for sure because like you said, people will use OCD and ADD as adjectives wayyyy to much which really cheapens a serious condition that can afflict people. Of course, I know people with both those conditions and while it has at times caused big problems in their life, they are relatively successful regardless of any societal sterotypes people attribute. It is not as simple as some airhead saying, "oh my god, im sooooo OCD." or someone that spaces out once in a while and says, "Sorry, im just really ADD right now" but at the same time, they are both very complex conditions. Its just that it was a lot easier to type out my previous statement you responded to rather than this diatribe and specify that from what i know and understand about OCD which is probably a lot more than the overage person, I could easily see Mike being diagnosed with it.
^ Even so - he did always twist it to make himself the victim in every situation...
...and then when he is called out on it, he furthers the victim status by saying, "Everything I say is picked apart and taken out of context," yet the positive things he does are also picked apart such as all the nuggets, etc and he loves that. He does his fair share of picking apart too, such as the supposed structure of ADTOE being the same as I&W or taking James's comment about not being sad that MP is gone out of context when he himself always trashes Blabbermouth for doing the same to him.
Besides - MP only did arranging. He did no melodic writing at all.
I think both those statements are a little inaccurate. He certainly did some arranging but JP and JR were always the main force in that department from what I understand. Also, he did write many vocal melodies and occasionally even a guitar riff or two. I heard that A Rite of Passage was instigated by riffs he wrote (and I wish we could hear more details about that and other songs he actually wrote melodies for). BTW, I friggin' love that song. By far my favorite off of an otherwise underwhelming album.
Anyway, didn't mean to nitpick your statement because I agree with 99% of what you have said.
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I miss him occasionally, but I do not want him to return to the band. He was too much of a control freak (mistakenly referred by him as OCD, which is a true disorder and something super nasty)
OCD is an anxiety disorder that manifests itself in many different ways. From what I know of MP, and obviously none of us really know him that well personally with the exception of a few, he definitely does have OCD. I wish he would refer to it as less of a cute quirk and more of an actual disorder because a lot of people really do suffer from it.
His alcoholism, obsession about things and control, and always being in constant motion are definitely traits of OCD. Of course, OCD is not and should not be an excuse for how you treat people or situations. I believe along with a lot of others that he was out of line in a lot of his dealings with the band and its members before and after the split.
Both Portnoy and DT seem to be better off without each other.
This. I don't even want a one- or two-off reunion show. They're just done. MM has filled the gap MP left in the best way possible
I agree. I don't want a reunion show because like MP said about KM, if there was a reunion it would be all about KM and it should be about the band. A reunion show with MP would be just about MP and I am enjoying the rest of the members being more celebrated.
Of course I have seen them with MP five times so I have that desire filled already.
True, we don't know MP's personal life and shouldn't never get to meddle in his private affairs, but he doesn't strike to me like a person who's under medication for such condition. I've known cases of OCD patients and trust me, it's always ugly. It's not a "I'm OCD so I own everything my favorite bands have put out and I have control of everything my band does!" type, it's a medicated type in which people, literally, go crazy while everything crumbles around them. I don't wanna turn this into a medical debate whatsoever, but that's the reason I'm a bit bothered MP says that so often. Making reference to what you said, of his personality traits all being symptoms of the disease...I'm not that convinced. He just strikes me as an obsessive person that happened to suffer from alcoholism and maybe other addictions. I may be wrong, I may be right, who knows. It's not of anyone's business but MP's (and his family).
That's me, though. As I said afterwards in my post, I do miss lots of the things Portnoy did for the band. I consider the Ytse Jam Bootlegs to be dead, I really can't see the other guys taking interest in bootlegs after Portnoy's departure so that's something I miss dearly. I hope I'm proven wrong, it would be so amazing that we get an out of the blue notice of a DVD from the Black Clouds tour released by Ytse Jam Records, or some demos or something. Also, the band felt much more personal with him on the helm, that's a fact. Now, they feel like a big rock band that has grand plans or something. With MP, even though they were big they always felt super personal... I dunno, it's a weird feeling. They are different presentations of Dream Theater, and I was very fortunate to live the MP-era Dream Theater for quite some years in the same way I'm extremely lucky to be able to enjoy Mangini-era Dream Theater.
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...his obnoxious personality definitely grated on me at times.
J, I'm not going to issue a formal warning as long as this doesn't continue, but that post crosses the line. Again, it's not that Mike Portnoy is being criticism. He isn't. You don't have to agree with or like everything about him. But disagreeing with actions is one thing. Singling him out because of his personality and calling him "obnoxious" is just insulting. Don't get into attacks that are of a personal nature, please. That definitely crosses the line.
Poor choice of words, my bad.
-J
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...and then when he is called out on it, he furthers the victim status.
Or just back-pedals.
Like that time on Twitter when he tweeted " Man - November Rain has the same drum fill TWENTY SEVEN TIMES....."
Matt Sorum replied : " Rock and roll is not all about big drum kits and insane fills you know..."
To which Portnoy replied with " I TOTALLY AGREE WITH YOU :) :) :) "
Or when he dismisses "liking" or "retweeting" insults about DT as " THEY said that NOT ME ". Even though agreeing with something is virtually saying it yourself.
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I read an interesting article written by a girl about MP's departure. She said that all the speculations around the episode were lacking a "girl's view", per say. She said that MP left the band because he needed to get laid. The whole thing about rock n'roll is sex and he was not getting sex with DT, the "family band".
Well, that's a girl's point of view... If she is right, and Portnoy is getting it with The Winery Dogs, then no, he will never return to DT.
I'll try to find it. It's pretty funny though...
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Whatttttttt the fuck? Portnoy has been married with children for years.
This is probably one of the worst posts I've ever seen on this forum. :lol
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I read an interesting article written by a girl about MP's departure. She said that all the speculations around the episode were lacking a "girl's view", per say. She said that MP left the band because he needed to get laid. The whole thing about rock n'roll is sex and he was not getting sex with DT, the "family band".
Well, that's a girl's point of view... If she is right, and Portnoy is getting it with The Winery Dogs, then no, he will never return to DT.
This is wrong on so many levels. It borders on insulting. :(
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I'm trying to find it and post the link here. No, she didn't mean to sound insulting. Maybe just funny.
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The entire concept of it is insulting. No need to post it here.
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I miss him occasionally, but I do not want him to return to the band. He was too much of a control freak (mistakenly referred by him as OCD, which is a true disorder and something super nasty)
OCD is an anxiety disorder that manifests itself in many different ways. From what I know of MP, and obviously none of us really know him that well personally with the exception of a few, he definitely does have OCD. I wish he would refer to it as less of a cute quirk and more of an actual disorder because a lot of people really do suffer from it.
His alcoholism, obsession about things and control, and always being in constant motion are definitely traits of OCD. Of course, OCD is not and should not be an excuse for how you treat people or situations. I believe along with a lot of others that he was out of line in a lot of his dealings with the band and its members before and after the split.
Both Portnoy and DT seem to be better off without each other.
This. I don't even want a one- or two-off reunion show. They're just done. MM has filled the gap MP left in the best way possible
I agree. I don't want a reunion show because like MP said about KM, if there was a reunion it would be all about KM and it should be about the band. A reunion show with MP would be just about MP and I am enjoying the rest of the members being more celebrated.
Of course I have seen them with MP five times so I have that desire filled already.
True, we don't know MP's personal life and shouldn't never get to meddle in his private affairs, but he doesn't strike to me like a person who's under medication for such condition. I've known cases of OCD patients and trust me, it's always ugly. It's not a "I'm OCD so I own everything my favorite bands have put out and I have control of everything my band does!" type, it's a medicated type in which people, literally, go crazy while everything crumbles around them. I don't wanna turn this into a medical debate whatsoever, but that's the reason I'm a bit bothered MP says that so often. Making reference to what you said, of his personality traits all being symptoms of the disease...I'm not that convinced. He just strikes me as an obsessive person that happened to suffer from alcoholism and maybe other addictions. I may be wrong, I may be right, who knows. It's not of anyone's business but MP's (and his family).
This is where I trying to get basically in less.
And I see where you were going with your last post Madman. :coolio
The person in my career I diagnosed it for billing had abuse in their past, and another mental disorder. And even when I did use OCD along with something else, I was still not 100% on OCD, because of the parameters of the disorder. So while I am a supporter of substance abuse and addictions overall as mental disorders, I doubt Mike had going on what my client did. OCD is washing hands five times and etc. But again, we don't know everything.
And the fact he did throw it around in interviews devalues the condition. We all have obsessive things. He could have it, he could not. But unless he said he was diagnosed with it, nope.
Anyway, sorry for the thread derail!
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A lot of people use the term "OCD" just to mean obsessive. I imagine that's what Mike meant by it.
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...and then when he is called out on it, he furthers the victim status.
Or just back-pedals.
Like that time on Twitter when he tweeted " Man - November Rain has the same drum fill TWENTY SEVEN TIMES....."
Matt Sorum replied : " Rock and roll is not all about big drum kits and insane fills you know..."
To which Portnoy replied with " I TOTALLY AGREE WITH YOU :) :) :) "
Or when he dismisses "liking" or "retweeting" insults about DT as " THEY said that NOT ME ". Even though agreeing with something is virtually saying it yourself.
Not to use this as an excuse to pile up on Mike but I was actually thinking about that very thing today. Side note: I just bought 6 Rush CDs on Amazon for less than 5 bucks each, brand new. Never listened to or cared for Rush before but...well, speaking of compulsive, it was too good to pass up (and I'm really digging'em)! Anyway, I thought of the interview he did with Metal Sludge back in the year 2000. It is an interesting read with a lot of interesting non-controversial thing but he said some kinda shitty things about Neil Peart which he later said he was doing to spice things up because Metal Sludge is basically a gossipy metal site for assholes run by assholes. For instance, their message board has no rules except to not post peoples personal info and often threads will go way off topic and turn into a flame war (but there are a lot of interesting posts on the board other than that).
Anyway, here is what MP said:
10. Rate the following drummers on a scale of 1 to 10. 1 being somebody with no rhythm and 10 being the man. Peter Criss = Criss 1976 was a 10 and a god to me, Criss 1996 gets an 8 for effort, and Criss 2000 is a 3 and should've quit while he was ahead
Joey Kramer = 5 - OK drummer, but I never cared much about Aerosmith
Vinnie Paul = 9 - Vinnie fucking rocks! Great feet, great power and cool grooves...Gotta lose the bandana though.. Rikki Rockett = 2 - Gimme a break! Nice guy though...met him in '93
Tommy Lee = 8 - Rock solid (no pun intended!) Loved the first 2 Motley albums at the time ('82ish) and he got me started with double bass back then..
Neil Peart = Once again, like Peter Criss - A big whopping 10 back in the day...nobody could've been a bigger influence on me back then....but now he should give it a rest and try to play something new (forget that jazz crap)
Lars Ulrich = An 8 pre-Bob Rock, and a 3 post-Bob Rock and Live
Eric Singer = Was never a no-makeup Kiss fan, but I liked the first Badlands album. Plus Eric's a nice guy to me....so I'll say 7
Charlie Benante = 9 - Charlie was a big influence for me back in the mid-80's...I loved the 1st SOD album and the first 3 Anthrax albums...I also respect his writing and think he's a cool guy...We have alot of the same interests (same music, films, TV shows, etc...)
Nicko McBrain = An 8 just for the Piece of Mind and Powerslave albums alone...Nicko's also a great guy who's alot of fun to hang out with....
11. Since you were extremely involved in the project, how do feel in regards to Neil Peart's comment that all the bands on the Rush tribute album were "bar bands"?
Yeah that was fucked up...Especially because Dream Theater, Skid Row, Mr. Big and alot of the other musicians and bands involved on that tribute sell ALOT more records outside of North America than Rush does...Once you go to Europe or South America or Japan or wherever, Rush is not popular at all...and I figured by putting this tribute together, we'd introduce a whole new generation of kids to who one of our big influences was.... I guess Neil's people-skills are really lacking...I feel sorry for him with all the personal shit he's been through recently, but I lost all respect for him as a person after all the work I put into that CD.... We were just paying tribute and trying to say thanks, but he apparently took it as us trying to make money off Rush's name which certainly wasn't the case...
Later Mike backtracked and said he was playing it up for the site and then went on to interview him for an issue of some music magazine where musicians interviewed their idols or something like that. Now he considers him a good friend.
I'm thinking, "but I thought you said he sucked." Also seemed like a cheap shot to talk about "all the personal shit he's been through recently". Really? Losing your daughter in a tragic car accident and a wife to cancer shortly after...and essentially saying, "but fuck him!"
Anyway, full interview here
https://www.metalsludge.tv/home/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=202&Itemid=52
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ABSOLUTELY YES! But as long as both sides continue making great music I can live without it.
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Sometimes I miss him. However, I think I like the band the way it is for now.
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Don't want him back in the band, but I wouldn't mind some one-off thing at a festival sometime down the line though.
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Absolutely not, but not because of his drumming or ego, rather because the band are more energized and happy playing together now. It's obvious in the live presentation. That and I don't like where some of his songwriting was going. They are back on track and better than ever since he left. I truly believe that they are better off without him.
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I don't think it likely to happen, and I don't really care to see him back in DT, but I do hope he doesn't go the route of KM, where he just disappears from anything connected to DT. That would kinda be difficult for everyone I think.
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Absolutely not, but not because of his drumming or ego, rather because the band are more energized and happy playing together now. It's obvious in the live presentation. That and I don't like where some of his songwriting was going. They are back on track and better than ever since he left. I truly believe that they are better off without him.
Not to mention that we all just love Mangini so darn much.
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Absolutely not, but not because of his drumming or ego, rather because the band are more energized and happy playing together now. It's obvious in the live presentation. That and I don't like where some of his songwriting was going. They are back on track and better than ever since he left. I truly believe that they are better off without him.
Not to mention that we all just love Mangini so darn much.
Oh yeah, that too. :tup
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I don't think it likely to happen, and I don't really care to see him back in DT, but I do hope he doesn't go the route of KM, where he just disappears from anything connected to DT. That would kinda be difficult for everyone I think.
I doubt it. He's definitely still proud of the 25 years he spent in DT, obviously still wants to be in the band. He just doesn't have any interest in what they do without him. Which is fair enough, I suppose.
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I don't think it likely to happen, and I don't really care to see him back in DT, but I do hope he doesn't go the route of KM, where he just disappears from anything connected to DT. That would kinda be difficult for everyone I think.
I doubt it. He's definitely still proud of the 25 years he spent in DT, obviously still wants to be in the band. He just doesn't have any interest in what they do without him. Which is fair enough, I suppose.
It is, but one could easily wonder why he, who once proclaimed himself to be the world's biggest Dream Theater fan, suddenly has no interest in them. The world's biggest fan of a band should be able to recognize that what happened was for the betterment of the band. In theory. :lol
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It is, but one could easily wonder why he, who once proclaimed himself to be the world's biggest Dream Theater fan, suddenly has no interest in them. The world's biggest fan of a band should be able to recognize that what happened was for the betterment of the band. In theory. :lol
Well, come on. Knowing MP, regardless of how fulfilled he is with what he may be doing right now, is it really surprising that he'd be bitter about not being a part of their new chapter?
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In theory, yea. But it makes sense though. It must be really painful for him to see DT move on without them. It goes beyond just being a fan, it's a personal thing too.
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Yep. That is why I said, "In theory." :biggrin:
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From that metalsludge interview: Do we want Kevin Morgan back in DT? :rollin
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I voted No. Even if the new album disappoints, ADTOE and the tour that followed didn't for me, and honestly, with the somewhat shocking succcess, chartwise, of Winery Dogs, it may have turned out for the best that they went their separate ways. MP's time in DT is done, let it go.
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From that metalsludge interview: Do we want Kevin Morgan back in DT? :rollin
I think the interview was done via email so when he his asked later about "Kevin Morgan" again he says, "Who is Kevin Morgan and why does he keep haunting me in this interview?!"
:lol
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From that metalsludge interview: Do we want Kevin Morgan back in DT? :rollin
I think the interview was done via email so when he his asked later about "Kevin Morgan" again he says, "Who is Kevin Morgan and why does he keep haunting me in this interview?!"
:lol
Yeah, that was pretty funny. Also an excellent way to not bother discussing the first thing that comes to mind when asked about Kevin Moore. I'm sure that wouldn't have been too pleasant.
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What I can't figure with MP is why he starts bands and so easily leaves them. He'd said that AMOB was his #1 priority, and then a few months later, forms TWD and leaves AMOB because of a scheduling issue. The guy can't make up his mind. He leaves DT after 25 years because he's bored, then forms two bands within a year of each other, says he's focused on one, then leaves that one because he wants to focus on the other. That's just weird.
Wolven, Mike Portnoy is certainly not above criticism. But what you have posted is just inaccurate. Saying he left DT because he was "bored" is an unfair mischaracterization. He left because he felt "burned out on DT" and felt that he needed a break and could not go on with a new album on the schedule the band had set. You are free to disagree with the validity of that, but that is not the same thing as leaving because he is "bored." And saying he left AMOB purely because of a "scheling issue" is just as inaccurate. Again, you may not agree with his reasoning, but if you are going to do that, please be more accurate when describing his reasoning.
Sorry, Bosky. I didn't mean to come across as critical of MP. I know he left because of being burnt out (tired?) and if that's the case then it was the right time for him to leave. And, if I recall correctly, he did leave AMOB because he'd started TWD and the two bands' schedules wouldn't work out, or something to that affect. That may not be completely accurate, but it's not meant to be inflammatory either.
I'm just hoping that he can find a band where he feels comfortable enough to settle down and have a family again. He doesn't seem like he's completely happy. That kinda makes me sad. :sadpanda:
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Not one bit. ADTOE was DT's freshest album in a long long time. Ironically, considering why MP left, it was the exact thing the band needed to give them some new lifeblood. They sound more "together" than ever before, and (at least on ADTOE) they got rid of some of the "extreme" metal elements (mainly of Portnoy's devising, it would seem) that slowly but surely crept into the band's work through Systematic Chaos and BC&SL.
Tbh, I don't even want to see a one-show reunion. It will be like going back to old ways, when the band (and most of the fanbase) have moved on.
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Portnoy was my favourite member of the band until around September 2010.
After that he just made it worse and worse for himself.
If *you* want a break from the band - don't bitch about the rest of them in the press because *they* don't want to.
What I absolutely DO NOT miss : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R5RLln_Hk7w
I tend to agree with that. And thanks for sharing the video, I´de never seen that before!
I think Mike realized after the BCSL Tour that the band needed a fresh start and needed to improve/fix their relationship to move on. Sadly though, the solution he proposed was not accepted, and it took him leaving for the band to reconnect again and work as a tight unit. While I do not know what goes on in the "inner circles" of the band, I imagine that the end result was exactly what Mike wanted, but unfortunately it came through at his expense.
What really ruined the whole thing for me was Mike´s attitude in some of the interviews and posts on the internet after he left. As much as he wanted to share details of band life with the fans, some of the things he said should have been avoided. I don´t have the exact quotes, but in summary, he complained about the guys moving on while he himself wanted to leave. I guess his biggest mistake was to play the card of "I´ll quit and they´ll come running after me, and in the end I´ll get what I wanted from them in the first place". That completely backfired for him, and in my opinion, by doing that he thought he was more important than DT. To put this in a marketing perspective, he didn´t realize then that fans go after the BRAND DT, not after individual members. No matter how much you represent for the band, that´s always the case. For the record, I think Bruce Dickinson and Rob Halford thought the same thing when they left Maiden and Priest, only to realize a few years later that going solo is a tough thing to do. Think about the Queensryche rift that´s still going on - who´s getting more credit for carrying on, Geoff Tate or Queensryche? An the situation with him right now goes lik this:he starts a new project, seems quit happy about it, fans start to get excited, and then a few months later another comment from him about rejoining DT comes up in interviews. Why does he do that? In my opinion, he should avoid mentioning DT as much as possible now, just like DT is doing about his deput parture. My advice to him would be "enjoy your side projects Mike. I do like TWD, Flying Colors, and AMob. Focus on those bands now, and leave DT aside for some time. You may or may not return to the band, but we will always be grateful for your contribution to it. But please leave them aside for now".
All that said, I do miss Mike´s stage presence and in-you-face drumming, and I think that´s the one side DT will never recover from after he left. People blame him for the heavy direction they took in BCSL and SysChaos, but forget that he also created the whole (great) concept of Octavarium, arguably the most prog (proggest?) album they released. He also took the band to where they got in SFAM by fighting for creative freedom when things were tough during the FII era.
Whether or not he will come back, I don´t know. Stranger things have happened: Roth rejoined Van Halen after fighting with the band for yars on end on the press; Sting reunited with The Police even though nobody even thought about it anymore, almost 25 years after they split. Right now, I think both sides should move on, and think about a reunion (permanent or not) a few more years down the track. I would like to see MP back ONLY if it was for the benefit of the band as a unit. Otherwise, only a one-off show would suffice.
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Not one bit. ADTOE was DT's freshest album in a long long time. Ironically, considering why MP left, it was the exact thing the band needed to give them some new lifeblood. They sound more "together" than ever before, and (at least on ADTOE) they got rid of some of the "extreme" metal elements (mainly of Portnoy's devising, it would seem) that slowly but surely crept into the band's work through Systematic Chaos and BC&SL.
Tbh, I don't even want to see a one-show reunion. It will be like going back to old ways, when the band (and most of the fanbase) have moved on.
I agree that the extreme metal side was brought to DT by MP, but so was the prog concept of Octavarium...but I do agree that they needed a change by the time BCSL came up. Unfortunately, that change came at MP´s expense.
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No.
I wouldnt mind having pre-2005-MP in DT, however, i got really sick of the attitude from the guy after that period. He reminds me of the kind of person i could never get along with during my time at college (i studied music, so there were a lot of egocentric "holier-than-thou" people in class).
His connection with the fans was good, to some extent. Personally, i don't miss it too much. He was just too "good" at letting us know how a great leader of DT he was, and how much we SHOULD appreciate him.
DT nowadays just seem like a band at peace with themselves and the situation they're in. Mike Mangini has the complete opposite personality of MPs. Humble, friendly and a monster musician who allways pushes himself to become a better drummer. MM is the drummer DT needs at this point, and whatever happens in the future, John Petrucci must continue the role as the leader of the band. It just seems much more healthy for the band this way.
(IMO)
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....
Tbh, I don't even want to see a one-show reunion. It will be like going back to old ways, when the band (and most of the fanbase) have moved on.
Would be a great way for them to clear things without any pressure on it and hopefully to pull them together.
Plus, musically talking, I would love to see both Mikes playing together...but yes, I can't see this happening shortly.
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No.
I wouldnt mind having pre-2005-MP in DT, however, i got really sick of the attitude from the guy after that period. He reminds me of the kind of person i could never get along with during my time at college (i studied music, so there were a lot of egocentric "holier-than-thou" people in class).
His connection with the fans was good, to some extent. Personally, i don't miss it too much. He was just too "good" at letting us know how a great leader of DT he was, and how much we SHOULD appreciate him.
DT nowadays just seem like a band at peace with themselves and the situation they're in. Mike Mangini has the complete opposite personality of MPs. Humble, friendly and a monster musician who allways pushes himself to become a better drummer. MM is the drummer DT needs at this point, and whatever happens in the future, John Petrucci must continue the role as the leader of the band. It just seems much more healthy for the band this way.
(IMO)
:clap:
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I would not. Portnoy was obviously so important to the band, but after a while the difference between his personality and theirs was starting to creep into the music. The greatest example of this, in my opinion, is the roar in ANTR. My understanding is that Portnoy's reasoning behind it was: "We need to keep up with our peers." Sometimes I felt like Portnoy was almost embarrassed by Dream Theater's lack of coolness.
Mangini fits in so much better with the band. His approach, his personality... Hell, he even looks the part more. I'm very confident this is the last Dream Theater line-up we'll ever see.
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By the way, I have a question about MP and DT sorta:
If you met him in person, do you think it would be okay to ask him to sign a DT item? I met him at the Flying Colors tour, and I was considering asking him to sign my Images & Words booklet, but I wasn't sure if that would upset him.
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Definitely, no. The last 3 albums before ADToE have been the worst DT albums for me, and MP was on them. Don't say he was responsible for the poor quality, but he was part of that era. Now they have moved on and so have I. So I wish for things to stay the same as they are now.
B.Lee
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By the way, I have a question about MP and DT sorta:
If you met him in person, do you think it would be okay to ask him to sign a DT item? I met him at the Flying Colors tour, and I was considering asking him to sign my Images & Words booklet, but I wasn't sure if that would upset him.
I'd say ask him. Why not? He's on these albums, and it's been an important part of his carreer.
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By the way, I have a question about MP and DT sorta:
If you met him in person, do you think it would be okay to ask him to sign a DT item? I met him at the Flying Colors tour, and I was considering asking him to sign my Images & Words booklet, but I wasn't sure if that would upset him.
I'd say ask him. Why not? He's on these albums, and it's been an important part of his carreer.
I've heard loads of people saying they took him their fave DT albums to sign post-split and he was really okay with it, was in fact pleased people like those albums so much. If I met him, I'd definitely ask him to sign one of my fave DT albums since he's a great part of those.
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I met Mike after he left, and he signed the Budokan CD for me.
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Just don't ask him to sign any Extreme or Annihilator CDs.
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Yes, I miss him.
No, I don't want him back.
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If MP were still in the band today, how much more do you think we'd know about the new album? Everyone seems to miss his interaction with the fans, but really what more would we have gotten if MP were in the band interacting with the fans?
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We'll see. Portnoy DT gave us Scenes, Six Degrees, and Images. Mangini DT only gave us ADTOE, which is average. But it's only one data point. As of now I miss Portnoy's creative input, but we'll see how they do in DT12.
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We'll see. Portnoy DT gave us Scenes, Six Degrees, and Images.
Well, technically, Petrucci, Myung, Moore and Portnoy have us scenes, and Petrucci, Myung, Rudess and Portnoy gave us the other two. It's not like Portnoy was the only one composing those albums, and from a creative point of view, Mangini didn't really give us anything, because the drum patterns were written by Petrucci.
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We'll see. Portnoy DT gave us Scenes, Six Degrees, and Images. Mangini DT only gave us ADTOE, which is average. But it's only one data point. As of now I miss Portnoy's creative input, but we'll see how they do in DT12.
Yeah, only one input for MM. And can you remind me how long ago Six Degrees was , please?
B.Lee
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12 years ago.
;D
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12 years ago.
;D
That's what I was hinting at. ;)
B.Lee
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I'm perfectly happy with DT as it is now. I think they needed a shake up, and Mangini seems like a really good fit, so yeah. Mangini rocks. I think I'd rather keep it as it is now than have the lineup change back.
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12 years ago.
;D
I feel so old. :(
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12 years ago.
;D
I feel so old. :(
So do I, mate, so do I. Btw, it's been 20 years since I first listened to DT. Cheers!
B.Lee
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12 years ago.
;D
That's what I was hinting at. ;)
B.Lee
I know ;D ;D
Also :
I think the saddest part is that in the beginning when they are playing the Lie video, Psychosane sounds almost exactly like Lie that I forget Lie isn't playing.
*accuses DT of ripping of Feed The Machine...Steals Lie wholesale*
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So do I, mate, so do I. Btw, it's been 20 years since I first listened to DT. Cheers!
B.Lee
12 for me. Still seems like yesterday, but damn, ages ago. To think the first time I heard them must have been like 3 months before SDOIT came out.
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Ofcourse I miss Portnoy. He was the heart of DT together with Petrucci. I like Mangini, but how would you not like the guys that made those wonderful records to reunite? The fact that MP wants to rejoin makes me happy in a way. Yes, he's got a childish attitude at times but that doesn't outweigh anything.
I respect DT for sticking with Mangini, but I just listened to SDOIT and... Come on the guy has magic in his playing and musical ideas.
I hope they'll rejoin one day with the only demand: Portnoy knowing his place in the band.
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Ofcourse I miss Portnoy. He was the heart of DT together with Petrucci. I like Mangini, but how would you not like the guys that made those wonderful records to reunite?
I know how. They seem like a much happier and "refreshed" band right now, and the MP era is over and done. I respect MP for his work with DT, but there's no need for them to reunite with him nowadays. MM joining was a new beginning, and I'm confident that the current lineup is at least as comforting for the band (and for me as a listener who does not miss MP's influence on SC and BC&SL) than the previous one, if not more.
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We'll see. Portnoy DT gave us Scenes, Six Degrees, and Images.
Well, technically, Petrucci, Myung, Moore and Portnoy have us scenes, and Petrucci, Myung, Rudess and Portnoy gave us the other two. It's not like Portnoy was the only one composing those albums, and from a creative point of view, Mangini didn't really give us anything, because the drum patterns were written by Petrucci.
I don't think Moore had a whole lot to do with Scenes. :P
(Yes, I realize that was probably a typo)
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We'll see. Portnoy DT gave us Scenes, Six Degrees, and Images.
Well, technically, Petrucci, Myung, Moore and Portnoy have us scenes, and Petrucci, Myung, Rudess and Portnoy gave us the other two. It's not like Portnoy was the only one composing those albums, and from a creative point of view, Mangini didn't really give us anything, because the drum patterns were written by Petrucci.
I don't think Moore had a whole lot to do with Scenes. :P
(Yes, I realize that was probably a typo)
I mean, Images. :blush Scenes, Images, Moving Pictures, whatever you want to call them.
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FOR THE LAST TIME.
JOHN PETRUCCI DID *NOT* WRITE THE DRUMS ON A DRAMATIC TURN OF EVENTS. HE WROTE THE MOST BASIC BASS AND SNARE ACCENTS PRIMARILY FOR THE BAND TO PLAY ALONG TO. MANGINI DID HIS OWN THING.
MANGINI WROTE AND PLAYED THE DRUMS ON A DRAMATIC TURN OF EVENTS.
Mangini didn't really give us anything, because the drum patterns were written by Petrucci.
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FOR THE LAST TIME.
JOHN PETRUCCI DID *NOT* WRITE THE DRUMS ON A DRAMATIC TURN OF EVENTS. HE WROTE THE MOST BASIC BASS AND SNARE ACCENTS PRIMARILY FOR THE BAND TO PLAY ALONG TO. MANGINI DID HIS OWN THING.
MANGINI WROTE AND PLAYED THE DRUMS ON A DRAMATIC TURN OF EVENTS.
Mangini didn't really give us anything, because the drum patterns were written by Petrucci.
Well.. I think it has been well documented that JP more or less "wrote" the drum parts for ADTOE.
Mangini have said in interviews that probably 70% of the original grooves, hits and feels from JPs programmed drums were kept for the final recordings.
That doesent mean that Mike didnt add his personality to the previous record (30% is still a pretty large amount of input), but he defenitely didnt have nearly as much input when it comes to creating and arranging the drum parts as we will hear on DT12.
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FOR THE LAST TIME.
JOHN PETRUCCI DID *NOT* WRITE THE DRUMS ON A DRAMATIC TURN OF EVENTS. HE WROTE THE MOST BASIC BASS AND SNARE ACCENTS PRIMARILY FOR THE BAND TO PLAY ALONG TO. MANGINI DID HIS OWN THING.
MANGINI WROTE AND PLAYED THE DRUMS ON A DRAMATIC TURN OF EVENTS.
Mangini didn't really give us anything, because the drum patterns were written by Petrucci.
Well.. I think it has been well documented that JP more or less "wrote" the drum parts for ADTOE.
Mangini have said in interviews that probably 70% of the original grooves, hits and feels from JPs programmed drums were kept for the final recordings.
That doesent mean that Mike didnt add his personality to the previous record (30% is still a pretty large amount of input), but he defenitely didnt have nearly as much input when it comes to creating and arranging the drum parts as we will hear on DT12.
Mike Mangini contributed a heck of a lot more than 30% of the drum parts on ADToE. JP programmed some basic ideas, but Mangini contributed most of the actual grooves and fills. Suggesting that he had such a minimal role on ADToE is just silly.
The difference on the new album is that he was there for and actively contributed to the writing process of the actual songs themselves.
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The main point is that Mangini didn't have any input in terms of song structure or direction.
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I'm guessing JP just added very basic drum patterns to keep the time sigs for the rest of them then mangini did the rest
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Based on the interviews I have seen (with both JP AND MM)...I was inclined to agree that *most* of the drum parts were written by JP, and MM "added his personality" to them. That implies to me that the bulk of the drum writing was in JP's hands...NOT MM's.
So I tend to agree that this is the first time we will *truly* hear what Mike Mangini will bring to Dream Theater.
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Whether he wrote them or not, I don't hear a lot of personality in the drumming for ADTOE. Mostly beats to keep the band going. Which is expected, he wasn't part of the writing process and had to do these parts on really short notice. That's why DT12 is going to be "Mangini unleashed", I expect the difference in drumming to be mind blowing, at the very least.
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FOR THE LAST TIME.
JOHN PETRUCCI DID *NOT* WRITE THE DRUMS ON A DRAMATIC TURN OF EVENTS. HE WROTE THE MOST BASIC BASS AND SNARE ACCENTS PRIMARILY FOR THE BAND TO PLAY ALONG TO. MANGINI DID HIS OWN THING.
MANGINI WROTE AND PLAYED THE DRUMS ON A DRAMATIC TURN OF EVENTS.
Mangini didn't really give us anything, because the drum patterns were written by Petrucci.
Well.. I think it has been well documented that JP more or less "wrote" the drum parts for ADTOE.
Mangini have said in interviews that probably 70% of the original grooves, hits and feels from JPs programmed drums were kept for the final recordings.
That doesent mean that Mike didnt add his personality to the previous record (30% is still a pretty large amount of input), but he defenitely didnt have nearly as much input when it comes to creating and arranging the drum parts as we will hear on DT12.
Mike Mangini contributed a heck of a lot more than 30% of the drum parts on ADToE. JP programmed some basic ideas, but Mangini contributed most of the actual grooves and fills. Suggesting that he had such a minimal role on ADToE is just silly.
The difference on the new album is that he was there for and actively contributed to the writing process of the actual songs themselves.
This. I don't know how that idea keeps perpetuating itself. JP is not a drummer and doesn't play drums. When you listen to those tracks it is very apparent they had a professional drummer come in and do significant interpretation. People don't realize how much we actually got from MM on the last album it appears. Listen to the instrumental section in Outcry, for example. It's very obvious that a non-drummer did not "write" that drumming as it is on the album. Jeez. Makes me feel like people aren't even listening to the parts and are just going by a misunderstanding of what JP said and has clarified numerous times.
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Mike Mangini contributed a heck of a lot more than 30% of the drum parts on ADToE. JP programmed some basic ideas, but Mangini contributed most of the actual grooves and fills. Suggesting that he had such a minimal role on ADToE is just silly.
The difference on the new album is that he was there for and actively contributed to the writing process of the actual songs themselves.
I'm not saying that he had a minimal role in ADTOE, I'm just saying that he still had to work around a basic framework provided by someone else. The way I see it is, comparing MM's role in ADOTE to MP's role in I&W, SFAM and SDOIT is like comparing two really good artists, one working on a paint by numbers picture, the other a blank canvas. Mike Mangini might be a genius and put his best brush strokes and utmost quality into that paint by numbers painting, but he's still working within an outline done by someone else, whereas Portnoy had the opportunity to use his imagination and create his work from scratch.
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BTW...I havn't responded to the poll...because I still don't know which question is being asked.
:angel:
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ADTOE drum parts are drum machine only.
Sorry, but that's absolutely wrong.
Eviljust, you are mistaken. This has been explained by the band numerous times. To this day, I don't understand why a small number of fans seem to think the above is true. Here are the facts: When initially writing, JP programs some initial thoughts for basic drum patterns. Mangini listened to them and then wrote his own drum parts, with input from the rest of the band. Sometimes, he stayed with the basic pattern JP had programmed, and used that as the skeleton for what became an obviously more elaborate drum part. Sometimes, he did his own thing and wrote something different. But what was originally given to him was just a skeleton and does not really resemble what Mike ultimately recorded. If you want to discuss this further, do a search for one of the threads where discussion of this issue would be on topic and discuss it there.
Thought this woulda been helpful :P
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But he still had to work within the rhythm that JP created. I mean, in terms of the actual guitar, keyboard, etc. parts. Those were already recorded, correct? So it's not like MM could've just added a beat here and there in his fills, or changed the song structure. So he was still working within certain limits.
I mean, he, JP, and JR all confirmed that this time around, it was a completely different situation, and a completely different result. So obviously what we've heard on ADTOE was not, "Mangini at his full potential."
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But he still had to work within the rhythm that JP created. I mean, in terms of the actual guitar, keyboard, etc. parts. Those were already recorded, correct? So it's not like MM could've just added a beat here and there in his fills, or changed the song structure. So he was still working within certain limits.
I mean, he, JP, and JR all confirmed that this time around, it was a completely different situation, and a completely different result. So obviously what we've heard on ADTOE was not, "Mangini at his full potential."
Yeah that's what I thought myself too when I wrote that. Not a real contribution in the writing process, that doesn't mean he didn't put any ideas on it.
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Yeah that's what I thought myself too when I wrote that. Not a real contribution in the writing process, that doesn't mean he didn't put any ideas on it.
Right, but my whole original argument came from the fact that someone basically said, "MP created such amazing albums as I&W, SDOIT and SFAM, while Mangini's drum work on ADTOE wasn't that good." My whole point was that ADTOE is not a good indicator of what Mangini is truly bringing to the band.
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Yeah that's what I thought myself too when I wrote that. Not a real contribution in the writing process, that doesn't mean he didn't put any ideas on it.
Right, but my whole original argument came from the fact that someone basically said, "MP created such amazing albums as I&W, SDOIT and SFAM, while Mangini's drum work on ADTOE wasn't that good." My whole point was that ADTOE is not a good indicator of what Mangini is truly bringing to the band.
Totally agree with you. That's also one of the reasons, as a drummer, I'm waiting DT12 like probably I've never had and am absolutely thrilled about it.
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lol yeah JP did all the work making his outline and Mangini just played connect the dots. :facepalm:
(https://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w265/llamabearduck/loldrums1_zps58e7235a.jpg) (https://s178.photobucket.com/user/llamabearduck/media/loldrums1_zps58e7235a.jpg.html)
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I believe Portnoy was running DT into the ground. I love songs like The Glass Prison, and Train of Thought is awesome. Some people think TOT was forced, but I think it sounds natural for them going way out of their element like that even though TGP was just as heavy, but back then Portnoy wasn't trying to be so METUL. With SC and BCSL, Portnoy's METUL influence sounded so force and with sections like "day after day", obnoxious. He was trying too hard. I realize there are four other guys in the band, but based on studio updates and even The SC documentary, it looked like MP was forcing what he wanted on the guys.
To answer the first question, no. I don't think he would contribute anything I'd like currently. I like all but one song on SC, but I still don't really have an urge to give it a listen that much. I only like 2 out of the 6 on BCSL, The Shattered Fortress and The Count of Tuscany. Even though Portnoy's try too hard tough guy vox are present on TSF, I really like the arrangement of the song and the concept of all the past riffs and melodies throughout the AA Suite. and I'm also one of the few who loves Jordan's solo. But I kind of wore those songs out a few years ago, and they just don't have the same replayability as classic DT. Again, not entirely MP's fault, but with his current musical taste at the time, he was taking the band into a direction that just wasn't them. Dream Theater play excellent metal music, but to me, the last two with Portnoy just sounded like they were trying way too hard to be balls to the wall.
The second question, yes and no. Mike Portnoy is and was a phenomenal drummer, and up to Octavarium, I loved him. Granted I didn't get into the band until after Score was released, but listening to all the albums, and usually paying attention to the drums, Mike was incredible. He didn't really have the same flare with SC and BCSL. We know now that he wanted to take a break as far back as SC or was feeling burnt out, so I guess that affected his drumming. He didn't win his usual drum award either. So I miss pre-SC Mike Portnoy, but I could do without current MP. I'm still up for an anniversary show, but to be back in the band permanently, no thanks. Even if I don't like DT12 that much, I still like Mangini in the band, even if ADTOE wasn't the most memorable either.
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lol yeah JP did all the work making his outline and Mangini just played connect the dots. :facepalm:
(https://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w265/llamabearduck/loldrums1_zps58e7235a.jpg) (https://s178.photobucket.com/user/llamabearduck/media/loldrums1_zps58e7235a.jpg.html)
:rollin :tup Spot on.
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James LaBrie said that Mike Portnoy is not coming back, or better, he will not come back. Mangini is the drummer until the end of their career, he is a permanent member. Anyway we shall see what the future holds.
Portnoy is a great drummer, a great musician, but after 2006 he changed musically first, systematic chaos is a good album but honestly songs like constant motion and the dark eternal night I don't like so much because there is a little bit of growl I think. Black Clouds & Silver Linings is better than systematic chaos but it could be better.
Anyway are both good albums especillay "black clouds & silver linings", but he changed is mind starting from early 2010 when he started to collaborate with other artists like avenged sevenfold and so in 2010 Dream Theater in 2010 toured less than all their previous tours cause he had to tour with other artists and so I think it's not correct. So in fall 2010 he needed a break of 5 years from dream theater because I think he was very tired of dream theater and so he left in september.
Now he said he has had his break even if until know he has had a break of 3 years instead of 5 like he wanted firstly. What he does now is Touring sometime, every 7 or 8 months doing 2 or 3 shows occasionally even if he has done different projects around 2011 and especially 2012, but this year he left adreanline mob and sometimes he has done some shows. Now he said he is ready to come back in dream theater, but doors are closed, and as we know Petrucci and the Other member of dream theater don't never answer to his declarations and I think there is a reason.
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James LaBrie said that Mike Portnoy is not coming back, or better, he will not come back. Mangini is the drummer until the end of their career, he is a permanent member. Anyway we shall see what the future holds.
Portnoy is a great drummer, a great musician, but after 2006 he changed musically first, systematic chaos is a good album but honestly songs like constant motion and the dark eternal night I don't like so much because there is a little bit of growl I think. Black Clouds & Silver Linings is better than systematic chaos but it could be better.
Anyway are both good albums especillay "black clouds & silver linings", but he changed is mind starting from early 2010 when he started to collaborate with other artists like avenged sevenfold and so in 2010 Dream Theater in 2010 toured less than all their previous tours cause he had to tour with other artists and so I think it's not correct. So in fall 2010 he needed a break of 5 years from dream theater because I think he was very tired of dream theater and so he left in september.
Now he said he has had his break even if until know he has had a break of 3 years instead of 5 like he wanted firstly. What he does now is Touring sometime, every 7 or 8 months doing 2 or 3 shows occasionally even if he has done different projects around 2011 and especially 2012, but this year he left adreanline mob and sometimes he has done some shows. Now he said he is ready to come back in dream theater, but doors are closed, and as we know Petrucci and the Other member of dream theater don't never answer to his declarations and I think there is a reason.
Where did you get this info : he said he is ready to come back to DT? Source (or did I miss something?)?
B.Lee
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Blabbermouth posted a quote out of context.
I know, shocker.
Mike does think the band are trying to prove themselves without him, which is crap.
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Where did you get this info : he said he is ready to come back to DT? Source (or did I miss something?)?
B.Lee
"Mike was also asked whether he would one day be willing to reunite with DREAM THEATER and rejoin the band as their drummer. "Sure," he replied. "I would do it in a heartbeat. They are the ones that have closed the door on it. I've only needed a break, and I've had that break. So I'm ready, willing and able. But I honestly don't think they ever will; they've closed their door on it and I think they're too headstrong in having to prove themselves without me. So I wouldn't count on it. But my door is always open."
https://blabbermouth.net/news.aspx?mode=Article&newsitemID=193252
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That would be the out of context quote.
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I believe Portnoy was running DT into the ground. I love songs like The Glass Prison, and Train of Thought is awesome. Some people think TOT was forced, but I think it sounds natural for them going way out of their element like that even though TGP was just as heavy, but back then Portnoy wasn't trying to be so METUL. With SC and BCSL, Portnoy's METUL influence sounded so force and with sections like "day after day", obnoxious. He was trying too hard. I realize there are four other guys in the band, but based on studio updates and even The SC documentary, it looked like MP was forcing what he wanted on the guys.
To answer the first question, no. I don't think he would contribute anything I'd like currently. I like all but one song on SC, but I still don't really have an urge to give it a listen that much. I only like 2 out of the 6 on BCSL, The Shattered Fortress and The Count of Tuscany. Even though Portnoy's try too hard tough guy vox are present on TSF, I really like the arrangement of the song and the concept of all the past riffs and melodies throughout the AA Suite. and I'm also one of the few who loves Jordan's solo. But I kind of wore those songs out a few years ago, and they just don't have the same replayability as classic DT. Again, not entirely MP's fault, but with his current musical taste at the time, he was taking the band into a direction that just wasn't them. Dream Theater play excellent metal music, but to me, the last two with Portnoy just sounded like they were trying way too hard to be balls to the wall.
The second question, yes and no. Mike Portnoy is and was a phenomenal drummer, and up to Octavarium, I loved him. Granted I didn't get into the band until after Score was released, but listening to all the albums, and usually paying attention to the drums, Mike was incredible. He didn't really have the same flare with SC and BCSL. We know now that he wanted to take a break as far back as SC or was feeling burnt out, so I guess that affected his drumming. He didn't win his usual drum award either. So I miss pre-SC Mike Portnoy, but I could do without current MP. I'm still up for an anniversary show, but to be back in the band permanently, no thanks. Even if I don't like DT12 that much, I still like Mangini in the band, even if ADTOE wasn't the most memorable either.
Spot on, dude. I´m a fan since the ACOS EP came out, and have the exact same opinion.
And as someone else said in the thread, the guys in DT have not responded to a single MP comment about the band since he left. The last comment I remember was James saying he was "not sad at all" by MP leaving, and that goes as far back as 2010. Whether MP wants to move on or get back to DT, he should do exactly the same, and not even respond to questions like that. He comes across as bitter and insecure when he still talks about DT today in those terms.
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Where did you get this info : he said he is ready to come back to DT? Source (or did I miss something?)?
B.Lee
"Mike was also asked whether he would one day be willing to reunite with DREAM THEATER and rejoin the band as their drummer. "Sure," he replied. "I would do it in a heartbeat. They are the ones that have closed the door on it. I've only needed a break, and I've had that break. So I'm ready, willing and able. But I honestly don't think they ever will; they've closed their door on it and I think they're too headstrong in having to prove themselves without me. So I wouldn't count on it. But my door is always open."
https://blabbermouth.net/news.aspx?mode=Article&newsitemID=193252
And since when are we counting on Blabbermouth to get REAL info? :biggrin:
B.Lee
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lol yeah JP did all the work making his outline and Mangini just played connect the dots. :facepalm:
(https://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w265/llamabearduck/loldrums1_zps58e7235a.jpg) (https://s178.photobucket.com/user/llamabearduck/media/loldrums1_zps58e7235a.jpg.html)
THANK YOU SO MUCH.
I love Mike Mangini so much, if anything ever gets in the way of his being in DT (unless it's his decision to retire or something like that), I'm going to hate that thing/person/event with the fire of a million burning suns. It's not a question of whether I would want MP back, even if a part of me did, I don't want to be in the situation where we'd speculate about that. I want MM in this band forever.
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Where did you get this info : he said he is ready to come back to DT? Source (or did I miss something?)?
B.Lee
"Mike was also asked whether he would one day be willing to reunite with DREAM THEATER and rejoin the band as their drummer. "Sure," he replied. "I would do it in a heartbeat. They are the ones that have closed the door on it. I've only needed a break, and I've had that break. So I'm ready, willing and able. But I honestly don't think they ever will; they've closed their door on it and I think they're too headstrong in having to prove themselves without me. So I wouldn't count on it. But my door is always open."
https://blabbermouth.net/news.aspx?mode=Article&newsitemID=193252
" Portnoy will be back ".
Some people just can't accept that MM is here to stay...
Additional : I have read Petrucci specifically say his drum contribution to ADTOE was nothing but bass and snare hits for each song just to show where to accent etc..
It's not like he sat down with Superior drummer and wrote each song out for the entire drumkit..Toms, octobans, cymbals, drum fills and all.
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Where did you get this info : he said he is ready to come back to DT? Source (or did I miss something?)?
B.Lee
"Mike was also asked whether he would one day be willing to reunite with DREAM THEATER and rejoin the band as their drummer. "Sure," he replied. "I would do it in a heartbeat. They are the ones that have closed the door on it. I've only needed a break, and I've had that break. So I'm ready, willing and able. But I honestly don't think they ever will; they've closed their door on it and I think they're too headstrong in having to prove themselves without me. So I wouldn't count on it. But my door is always open."
https://blabbermouth.net/news.aspx?mode=Article&newsitemID=193252
" Portnoy will be back ".
Some people just can't accept that MM is here to stay...
:huh:
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Are you one of them ?
Listening to Images & Words every night going " man - i can't wait til Portnoy comes back. " :)
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I'm not, the :huh: was simply because I can't see any relation between your comment and my post that you quoted.
And I&W is still one of my least favourites. No need to listen to that one every night :lol
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When I first read the title of this thread I thought: "WOULD YOU LIKE TO SEE OUR SECRET HOLY PLACE I CAME HERE AT NIGHT TO PRAY TO HIM BY CANDLELIGHT". Dream Theater sickness!
But I would prefer the actual lineup.
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I'm not, the :huh: was simply because I can't see any relation between your comment and my post that you quoted.
And I&W is still one of my least favourites. No need to listen to that one every night :lol
It was in the comments of the CrapperMouth article you linked to :) :heart
Anyway - I wouldn't want Portnoy back for personal reasons but moreover - it would be Dream Theater going in reverse for probably the first time in their
career. They've been moving forward and upwards for almost thirty years, so why stop now ?
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okay I thought you were talking about my point of view or something :lol
which is definitely not that I want MP back in the band.
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lol yeah JP did all the work making his outline and Mangini just played connect the dots. :facepalm:
If you want to use that analogy, then let me put it this way, your picture is accurate. But this time, MM will have the creative freedom to draw someone prettier and with her top off. :hat
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Haven't read most of the posts in this thread, but here's my two cents.
I definitely do not want MP back in Dream Theater. I was torn up when he left, very upset, and it took a while for me to realize Mangini was the right replacement, but I'm now fully converted and I love Mangini and appreciate his playing even more than I do Portnoy's :D Mangini needs to stay. For a long time.
I absolutely love Flying Colors, so MP needs to keep doing that. Winery Dogs are pretty decent, not as amazing as I initially thought, but cool enough. Adrenaline Mob was BORING, imo.
The only thing I want to happen at some point in the future is a reunion show with MP, at which they play the entire 12-Step Suite. I would wet my pants. If they did that and I went to it, over half of my Dream Theater wishes would be coming true all in one single show. And then I wouldn't care about seeing MP ever again :P Maybe there'll be a reunion for the 30th? Doesn't seem too far-fetched...
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Personally I wanna see MP doing prog (NOT PROGRESSIVE) again, It's what he suits rather than his radio seeking bands, I love them but it's not his best style.
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Prog is just short for progressive. I don't know how any difference was ever formed.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_rock
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Prog is just short for progressive. I don't know how any difference was ever formed.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_rock
I know but about 2 weeks ago there was this debate over it, hence the sarcasm green text :)
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Prog is just short for progressive. I don't know how any difference was ever formed.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_rock
I know but about 2 weeks ago there was this debate over it, hence the sarcasm green text :)
Didn't someone mention that this debate had happened before as well?
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Prog is just short for progressive. I don't know how any difference was ever formed.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_rock
I know but about 2 weeks ago there was this debate over it, hence the sarcasm green text :)
Didn't someone mention that this debate had happened before as well?
Yeah I think so
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Prog is just short for progressive. I don't know how any difference was ever formed.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_rock
I know but about 2 weeks ago there was this debate over it, hence the sarcasm green text :)
Ahhh didn't notice the sarcasm. ;)
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Prog is just short for progressive. I don't know how any difference was ever formed.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_rock
I know but about 2 weeks ago there was this debate over it, hence the sarcasm green text :)
Didn't someone mention that this debate had happened before as well?
Yes. This is the DTGHD forum.
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(https://i598.photobucket.com/albums/tt64/gsxr1000john/mongini_zpsfff36129.jpg~original) (https://s598.photobucket.com/user/gsxr1000john/media/mongini_zpsfff36129.jpg.html)
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Would you like to see Portnoy back in Dream theater?
Short Answer : No.
Long Answer : Noooooooooooooooooooooo !
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Personally I wanna see MP doing prog (NOT PROGRESSIVE) again, It's what he suits rather than his radio seeking bands, I love them but it's not his best style.
Well Transatlantic 4 is coming soon and I'm sure he'll do some other proggy stuff with Neal Morse so there's hope. :)
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Where did you get this info : he said he is ready to come back to DT? Source (or did I miss something?)?
B.Lee
"Mike was also asked whether he would one day be willing to reunite with DREAM THEATER and rejoin the band as their drummer. "Sure," he replied. "I would do it in a heartbeat. They are the ones that have closed the door on it. I've only needed a break, and I've had that break. So I'm ready, willing and able. But I honestly don't think they ever will; they've closed their door on it and I think they're too headstrong in having to prove themselves without me. So I wouldn't count on it. But my door is always open."
https://blabbermouth.net/news.aspx?mode=Article&newsitemID=193252
" Portnoy will be back ".
Some people just can't accept that MM is here to stay...
Additional : I have read Petrucci specifically say his drum contribution to ADTOE was nothing but bass and snare hits for each song just to show where to accent etc..
It's not like he sat down with Superior drummer and wrote each song out for the entire drumkit..Toms, octobans, cymbals, drum fills and all.
Not doubting you read that but I also remember reading Petrucci saying he had some fun with it and did some crazy stuff...some of which Mangini loved and nailed. Other times, Mangini would go off the "script" and turned out to be great.
From everything I read, I would say Petrucci probably came up with 70% of the parts but then again, a large percentage of that would be the more basic rhythms so when it came down to the creative aspect of the drums, I'm sure it was more like 60-70% Mangini.
I can think of one sure fire way to settle this.....
Petrucci, RELEASE THE DEMOS!
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You know what's funny? In the whole "How much did Mangini contribute to ADTOE" debate, I can never tell whether people are defending Mangini or denouncing him. These arguments usually start with, "The drumming on ADTOE wasn't that good," then someone says, "Well, that's because JP wrote the drums and Mangini didn't contribute," then you have a slew of people saying, "Mangini did contribute, because he's awesome." But the original point was that the drumming on ADTOE wasn't all that amazing. Which is exactly why I don't think MM gave even close to his full potential on ADTOE.
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Besides, the band is convinced that he did a much better job on this album.
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If only this time that snare sounds anywhere close to 'good' this time.
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Not doubting you read that but I also remember reading Petrucci saying he had some fun with it and did some crazy stuff...some of which Mangini loved and nailed. Other times, Mangini would go off the "script" and turned out to be great.
From everything I read, I would say Petrucci probably came up with 70% of the parts but then again, a large percentage of that would be the more basic rhythms so when it came down to the creative aspect of the drums, I'm sure it was more like 60-70% Mangini.
I've seen him say it in a few video interviews. Just bass and snare - a "skeleton" of the song. Of course he could have put some crazy drum stuff in just using those two instruments. But bass and snare it was.
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If only this time that snare sounds anywhere close to 'good' this time.
Like in Awake was?
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No. I was glad he left when he did, quite honestly.
Sticking just to their creative output, if MM had to quit for some reason then I'd be cautiously happy about him coming back under the following conditions:
1) He isn't allowed to write or arrange vocals.
2) He isn't allowed to sing, narrate or otherwise vocalise in any way on record (backing vocals live are fine).
3) He isn't allowed to prescribe an overall direction for their albums but instead lets the other guys follow their collective muses.
Three out of the last four DT albums with MP are my three least favourite DT records and the evidence of ADToE suggests that what I didn't like about those records was, as suspected, largely down to the creative impulses of MP (although perhaps the next one will prove that theory wrong...).
There are elements to MP's character that I find irksome that I can't say I miss, but realistically they're not that important - I've bought the Winery Dogs album after all and I still buy Megadeth records despite the world class pillockry of Mustaine! :smiley:
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After hearing The Enemy Inside, NO, I LOVE MANGINI.
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After hearing The Enemy Inside, NO, I LOVE MANGINI.
Just wanted to post exactly this :lol
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I'm curious about whether or not MP could play The Enemy Inside...
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Personally I do not want MP back in Dream Theater, but I don't want MM either. I've thought this since the auditions and it still stands that I think Marco would have been the best thing for Dream Theater. I completely understand why they went with Mangini, but Marco would have taken them to new places, whereas MM doesn't/hasn't.
As for MP, I definitely do miss him in the band just because it felt right, but from a drumming perspective, he checked out of that side of things a long time ago. Plus if his recent projects are any indication of the type of music he wants to explore, I think it's best for Dream Theater that he isn't part of the group any longer.
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I'm curious about whether or not MP could play The Enemy Inside...
I'm curious about whether or not it matters.
Oh wait, I am actually not curious. Because it does not matter.
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Personally I do not want MP back in Dream Theater, but I don't want MM either. I've thought this since the auditions and it still stands that I think Marco would have been the best thing for Dream Theater. I completely understand why they went with Mangini, but Marco would have taken them to new places, whereas MM doesn't/hasn't.
As for MP, I definitely do miss him in the band just because it felt right, but from a drumming perspective, he checked out of that side of things a long time ago. Plus if his recent projects are any indication of the type of music he wants to explore, I think it's best for Dream Theater that he isn't part of the group any longer.
Marco has ENERGY! I'd have loved to have him in DT.
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I'm curious about whether or not MP could play The Enemy Inside...
I'm curious about whether or not it matters.
Oh wait, I am actually not curious. Because it does not matter.
Wellllll, MP did say specifically in one interview that he wouldn't want to play a song Mike Mangini drummed on.
He was talking about the PSMS shows and he wanted to play Acid Rain but Derek didn't want to play something Jordan Rudess wrote. Portnoy said he understands completely because he wouldn't want to play something Mangini played on but Portnoy convinced Sherinian and agreed to play a crazy song of Sherinian's choosing.
So another reason to not want MP back in the band. They would just ignore the "Mangini Years"
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I'm curious about whether or not MP could play The Enemy Inside...
I'm curious about whether or not it matters.
Oh wait, I am actually not curious. Because it does not matter.
Wellllll, MP did say specifically in one interview that he wouldn't want to play a song Mike Mangini drummed on.
He was talking about the PSMS shows and he wanted to play Acid Rain but Derek didn't want to play something Jordan Rudess wrote. Portnoy said he understands completely because he wouldn't want to play something Mangini played on but Portnoy convinced Sherinian and agreed to play a crazy song of Sherinian's choosing.
So another reason to not want MP back in the band. They would just ignore the "Mangini Years"
Okay, but Portnoy has said before that he often plays things differently, even his own drum parts, so he could easily "dumb down" Mangini's parts and still do any of the Mangini-era songs we have heard justice.
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Is there really anything MM's recorded with DT that MP simply could not play? It's not like MP isn't a world-class metal drummer. What would he have to "dumb down"?
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Don't think he's ever coming back as a permanent member: maybe as a guest for an anniversary of an album or the band's birthday. I think they're better off separate ways
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Is there really anything MM's recorded with DT that MP simply could not play? It's not like MP isn't a world-class metal drummer. What would he have to "dumb down"?
I don't know, DT12 might reveal some technically difficult things, but I would think that if MP actually put the work in to learn MM's parts he could play them.
It seems like ability has never been MP's issue, he is an extremely gifted musician. I think the question is more, would he take the time to learn MM's parts or would he just play what ever he felt like?
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Looking forward to Transatlantic 4 and the Winery Dogs is pretty good, but, leave him out of DT..........don't like the attitude. Mangini is the best fit.
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Nope.
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Have to say, yes, there are things that I believe MP simply cannot play that MM did on ADTOE. To name one very miniscule example, the last chorus in Lost Not Forgotten, MM rides on that cymbal with 16th note strikes the ENTIRE chorus, only using one hand. It took MM years to bring his single stroke speeds to that level. MP can't do that. There's tons of little stuff littered all over ADTOE that MP couldn't play. Sure it wouldn't be too missed if he somehow returned and they played those songs, he would just ignore those parts. But still.
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Personally I do not want MP back in Dream Theater, but I don't want MM either. I've thought this since the auditions and it still stands that I think Marco would have been the best thing for Dream Theater. I completely understand why they went with Mangini, but Marco would have taken them to new places, whereas MM doesn't/hasn't.
As for MP, I definitely do miss him in the band just because it felt right, but from a drumming perspective, he checked out of that side of things a long time ago. Plus if his recent projects are any indication of the type of music he wants to explore, I think it's best for Dream Theater that he isn't part of the group any longer.
I don't quite think it's fair to judge MM in that respect, yet. He wasn't involved in the writing on ADTOE, so that's no basis to judge, and we have only heard 6:17 of music from a 60+ minute new album, so...after hearing DT12 then I'd say you can judge whether MM has brought DT to new places or not.
Just sayin.
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Personally I do not want MP back in Dream Theater, but I don't want MM either. I've thought this since the auditions and it still stands that I think Marco would have been the best thing for Dream Theater. I completely understand why they went with Mangini, but Marco would have taken them to new places, whereas MM doesn't/hasn't.
As for MP, I definitely do miss him in the band just because it felt right, but from a drumming perspective, he checked out of that side of things a long time ago. Plus if his recent projects are any indication of the type of music he wants to explore, I think it's best for Dream Theater that he isn't part of the group any longer.
Marco has ENERGY!
POWAH!
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Personally I do not want MP back in Dream Theater, but I don't want MM either. I've thought this since the auditions and it still stands that I think Marco would have been the best thing for Dream Theater. I completely understand why they went with Mangini, but Marco would have taken them to new places, whereas MM doesn't/hasn't.
As for MP, I definitely do miss him in the band just because it felt right, but from a drumming perspective, he checked out of that side of things a long time ago. Plus if his recent projects are any indication of the type of music he wants to explore, I think it's best for Dream Theater that he isn't part of the group any longer.
I don't quite think it's fair to judge MM in that respect, yet. He wasn't involved in the writing on ADTOE, so that's no basis to judge, and we have only heard 6:17 of music from a 60+ minute new album, so...after hearing DT12 then I'd say you can judge whether MM has brought DT to new places or not.
Just sayin.
Absolutely, you are correct. I just think we know what we are getting with MM. He's brings a great attitude and a huge amount of skill to the table. However, he also lack personality in his playing (not just DT, he has been around for a long time). We also know what Marco brings to the table and he has far more of a creative approach to his drumming.
Both great people, and both great drummers, but ultimately I think Marco would have been less of a 'safe' choice. This is with or without hearing DT12.
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Absolutely, you are correct. I just think we know what we are getting with MM. He's brings a great attitude and a huge amount of skill to the table. However, he also lack personality in his playing (not just DT, he has been around for a long time). We also know what Marco brings to the table and he has far more of a creative approach to his drumming.
Both great people, and both great drummers, but ultimately I think Marco would have been less of a 'safe' choice. This is with or without hearing DT12.
Ehhh...Maybe. I'm not very familiar with Marco's work so I suppose I can't comment too much. But I wouldn't want DT to change in any extreme ways. I personally wasn't too bored with BC&SL, although not my favorite album by any stretch, so I'm not one of the fans who has been hoping for some huge change in their style or anything. I believe Mangini both contributed to and evolved their existing style and process in very positive ways. But that's just me. I also think MM has tons of emotion in his playing. Just because he is hugely mathematic and analytical in his creative process doesn't make it less creative. I'm a fan of the mathematical stuff. I love things in music where I really have to pay attention and analyze a lot before I truly understand it.
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Absolutely, you are correct. I just think we know what we are getting with MM. He's brings a great attitude and a huge amount of skill to the table. However, he also lack personality in his playing (not just DT, he has been around for a long time). We also know what Marco brings to the table and he has far more of a creative approach to his drumming.
Both great people, and both great drummers, but ultimately I think Marco would have been less of a 'safe' choice. This is with or without hearing DT12.
Ehhh...Maybe. I'm not very familiar with Marco's work so I suppose I can't comment too much. But I wouldn't want DT to change in any extreme ways. I personally wasn't too bored with BC&SL, although not my favorite album by any stretch, so I'm not one of the fans who has been hoping for some huge change in their style or anything. I believe Mangini both contributed to and evolved their existing style and process in very positive ways. But that's just me. I also think MM has tons of emotion in his playing. Just because he is hugely mathematic and analytical in his creative process doesn't make it less creative. I'm a fan of the mathematical stuff. I love things in music where I really have to pay attention and analyze a lot before I truly understand it.
That's cool man. Each to their own.
I think DT12 will be a defining moment for Mangini because it will probably be the most creative opportuinty that he's had to write and record in his career. Which is why I hope the single isn't a sign of what's to come because I didn't find it very inspiring at all. I truely hope it is though for the sake of the band.
*sub-thought* does MP have any legal say as to the future of LTE? I would love to see the project revived with Marco instead of Portnoy.
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That's cool man. Each to their own.
I think DT12 will be a defining moment for Mangini because it will probably be the most creative opportuinty that he's had to write and record in his career. Which is why I hope the single isn't a sign of what's to come because I didn't find it very inspiring at all. I truely hope it is though for the sake of the band.
*sub-thought* does MP have any legal say as to the future of LTE? I would love to see the project revived with Marco instead of Portnoy.
Well we can at least agree that DT12 will be an amazing Mangini record, if nothing else :)
I do agree that TEI isn't very inspiring...but honestly the more I think about it, the less that gets my hopes down, because the singles have always been the low points of each album, and I still like all the singles (well, RoP is debatable....), meaning I generally love the albums themselves.
Oooooh...that made my brain spin a little. I have seriously been craving another LTE album for like four years. And a real one, not a Liquid Trio Experiment. Even if it was still Portnoy I'd be fine with that, but with Marco? DAMN. LTE2 is one of my favorite albums of all time...it's so raw, yet so refined, all at once!
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Well, from hearing The Enemy Inside, it's pretty safe to say that when the drums are mixed loudly enough, Mangini won't be sounding like MP. Not that I wanted or expected him to, but now, the difference is crystal clear. Overall, I would say I preferred Portnoy's sound, the way his toms sound and stuff, was very melodic, and the way he used them was very organic and free-flowing.
With MM, based on TEI and ADTOE, his drumming is very sharp and precise. I guess it makes sense, with him being called the "most technical drummer". And some of those crazy fast fills could be heard on TEI, which is awesome. So here's hoping we'll hear more.
But the difference now is clear. To be honest, when he auditioned, the way he pulled of Dance of Eternity, I felt like he had much more of a classic DT sound, so I thought, "Well, he's just going to do what Portnoy did, and we won't hear a difference." But now, the difference in their styles is pretty obvious.
*sub-thought* does MP have any legal say as to the future of LTE? I would love to see the project revived with Marco instead of Portnoy.
I'd like to see it revived with Portnoy, just so that all the people who want Portnoy back in DT can at least get a little bit of a fix, with having Portnoy collaborate with Petrucci ad Rudess again.
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That's cool man. Each to their own.
I think DT12 will be a defining moment for Mangini because it will probably be the most creative opportuinty that he's had to write and record in his career. Which is why I hope the single isn't a sign of what's to come because I didn't find it very inspiring at all. I truely hope it is though for the sake of the band.
*sub-thought* does MP have any legal say as to the future of LTE? I would love to see the project revived with Marco instead of Portnoy.
Well we can at least agree that DT12 will be an amazing Mangini record, if nothing else :)
I do agree that TEI isn't very inspiring...but honestly the more I think about it, the less that gets my hopes down, because the singles have always been the low points of each album, and I still like all the singles (well, RoP is debatable....), meaning I generally love the albums themselves.
Oooooh...that made my brain spin a little. I have seriously been craving another LTE album for like four years. And a real one, not a Liquid Trio Experiment. Even if it was still Portnoy I'd be fine with that, but with Marco? DAMN. LTE2 is one of my favorite albums of all time...it's so raw, yet so refined, all at once!
Well we agree on two things! LTE2 is a top 5 album of all time for me.
I wouldn't be against the old lineup, I just think JP JR TL and MM would be AMAZING!!
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*sub-thought* does MP have any legal say as to the future of LTE? I would love to see the project revived with Marco instead of Portnoy.
I'd like to see it revived with Portnoy, just so that all the people who want Portnoy back in DT can at least get a little bit of a fix, with having Portnoy collaborate with Petrucci ad Rudess again.
Well I guess it's one of the more likely things to happen seeing as JP and JR are the 2 DT guys that still communicate with MP on a friendly level (from what Mike has said openly).
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Chiming in 8 pages late, but here goes.
I can't imagine Portnoy ever being in the band again, unless things go south between Mangini and the band which I don't see happening. Not only does everybody in the band seem happy, but Mangini is absolutely amazing, and I want to see where he goes with Dream Theater. That being said, I love Mike Portnoys projects with Flying Colors and The Winery Dogs, and I'd love to see where he takes those, and I'd love to see him in an extreme metal band, just for the sake of it.
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Could you recommend some of Marco's best work for me to check out? I'm too lazy to find out what's good on my own :P
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I know he's worked with Necrophagist, although they're one of my least favorite tech death bands..
He worked on Steven Wilson's The Raven That Refused To Sing which is a glorious masterpiece imo.
Otherwise he's like a glorious musical slut, I can't keep track of what he's in :lol
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Hahaha I gotcha. Perhaps I'll check out that Steven Wilson project, then!
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Re: Replacing Portnoy in LTE. Not possible, LTE was his project.
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Here's how I see it. I would like Dream Theater to be the band that they appeared to be on the surface, after the Octavarium era. Back then, if you look at the Score documentary, it really feels like the band is together and everything is perfect. Or the making of DVD for Systematic Chaos, everyone seems to be having fun, enjoying themselves, James said it was the most fun he had recording an album since Awake. I loved that Dream Theater, and if the band could be like that, inside and out, that would be fantastic.
But unfortunately, as we know now, not all was well in DT camp, and things seemed to get worse with the Black Clouds era. So if that's how it was going to be in Dream Theater, then no, I certainly wouldn't want that version of Dream Theater to be around.
As of right now, with Mike Portnoy leaving Adrenalin Mob, it really feels like he's having a hard time committing to any one project. I feel like he's going through Band ADD, and I certainly wouldn't want that Mike Portnoy to be back in Dream Theater, out of sheer obligation.
So, that only leaves the current line-up. They're having great chemistry with Mike Mangini, and just because they don't come updating us with minor things every 5 minutes, doesn't mean that they aren't there for the fans. I don't want information on the new album, I don't want snippets. The way they're doing it now, it really feels like September 24th is birthday, and they're preparing a surprise for us. That's all.
But like I said, if we could have Mike Portnoy in the band, and have the band maintain the same kind of energy and spirit that they had after Scenes From A Memory, I'd be all for it. But those days are gone now.
nuggetz
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A resounding hell no.
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I just think JP JR TL and MM would be AMAZING!!
According to Levin, a Rudess-Levin-Minnemann album is coming shortly.
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I just think JP JR TL and MM would be AMAZING!!
According to Levin, a Rudess-Levin-Minnemann album is coming shortly.
Bazinga! No guitars?
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I just think JP JR TL and MM would be AMAZING!!
According to Levin, a Rudess-Levin-Minnemann album is coming shortly.
Say What?!?!
Except...no guitar...that will sadden my inner nerd slightly...
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I just think JP JR TL and MM would be AMAZING!!
According to Levin, a Rudess-Levin-Minnemann album is coming shortly.
Bazinga! No guitars?
Nope, just a trio.
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I just think JP JR TL and MM would be AMAZING!!
According to Levin, a Rudess-Levin-Minnemann album is coming shortly.
Here's the link where Levin discusses it:
https://www.forbassplayersonly.com/Interviews/Tony-Levin.html
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I just think JP JR TL and MM would be AMAZING!!
According to Levin, a Rudess-Levin-Minnemann album is coming shortly.
Here's the link where Levin discusses it:
https://www.forbassplayersonly.com/Interviews/Tony-Levin.html
Wow! That came out of nowhere. Jordan kept that one quiet. Definitely something to watch for. Thanks for the link.
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I just think JP JR TL and MM would be AMAZING!!
According to Levin, a Rudess-Levin-Minnemann album is coming shortly.
Here's the link where Levin discusses it:
https://www.forbassplayersonly.com/Interviews/Tony-Levin.html
Wow! That came out of nowhere. Jordan kept that one quiet. Definitely something to watch for. Thanks for the link.
I am SO in, especially after seeing Marco play on Saturday night!
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Mangini is a better drummer, and they seem much happier now, but they were absolutely a better band when Portnoy was drumming. It's not even close, frankly.
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Mangini is a better drummer, and they seem much happier now, but they were absolutely a better band when Portnoy was drumming. It's not even close, frankly.
Thank God there are things called "opinions"
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Mangini is a better drummer, and they seem much happier now, but they were absolutely a better band when Portnoy was drumming. It's not even close, frankly.
Thank God those things are called "opinions"
FTFY
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Mangini is a better drummer, and they seem much happier now, but they were absolutely a better band when Portnoy was drumming. It's not even close, frankly.
They were also a better band when Kevin Moore was in the band - yes, I went there! :biggrin: - but that was the past. The shake-up was what DT needed, and while I doubt Dream Theater will ever reach the consistent heights of 1992-2002 again, A Dramatic Turn of Events was an upgrade over everything they had done post-2002, IMO, and hopes are obviously high for the new one, so I think this current lineup is what is best for Dream Theater in 2013.
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MP is an amazing drummer and I thoroughly enjoy Flying Colors and The Winery Dogs, however, he isn't missed by me in the confines of DT.
Mangini is absolutely absurd on the drums! Also, his personality is the most positive I have ever witnessed out of a human being. With these facts and also that the rest of DT seems to just really be reinvigorated and truly happy, I don't want MP back.
It's hard to miss MP when MM literally slays the drums on (SPOILER ALERT) the newest single The Enemy Inside!!!
I'm so much more looking forward to hearing the rest of DT12 and MM's heart and soul entwined with the band and within the music! :metal
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MP is an amazing drummer and I thoroughly enjoy Flying Colors and The Winery Dogs, however, he isn't missed by me in the confines of DT.
Mangini is absolutely absurd on the drums! Also, his personality is the most positive I have ever witnessed out of a human being. With these facts and also that the rest of DT seems to just really be reinvigorated and truly happy, I don't want MP back.
It's hard to miss MP when MM literally slays the drums on (SPOILER ALERT) the newest single The Enemy Inside!!!
I'm so much more looking forward to hearing the rest of DT12 and MM's heart and soul entwined with the band and within the music! :metal
Couldn't agree with this post more! I love MP and all his work, but I do believe DT has been progressing back in a better direction since his departure. And MM is just so stinking likable as a person and such a talent on drums he really is making it hard to miss MP!
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Mangini is a better drummer, and they seem much happier now, but they were absolutely a better band when Portnoy was drumming. It's not even close, frankly.
They were also a better band when Kevin Moore was in the band - yes, I went there! :biggrin: - but that was the past. The shake-up was what DT needed, and while I doubt Dream Theater will ever reach the consistent heights of 1992-2002 again, A Dramatic Turn of Events was an upgrade over everything they had done post-2002, IMO, and hopes are obviously high for the new one, so I think this current lineup is what is best for Dream Theater in 2013.
I agree with that, too. As for the second part, I think ADToE was overall better than the last couple of albums, certainly Black Clouds, but it's also lacking the highs that you got from SC and 8V. Each of those albums had a song that far surpassed anything from Mangini's album.
More importantly, my interest in them is as a live band, and that's where the loss of MP really kills them.
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I agree with that, too. As for the second part, I think ADToE was overall better than the last couple of albums, certainly Black Clouds, but it's also lacking the highs that you got from SC and 8V. Each of those albums had a song that far surpassed anything from Mangini's album.
More importantly, my interest in them is as a live band, and that's where the loss of MP really kills them.
In what way do you see a loss? I've seen 3 shows with MP and 2 shows with MM, and the 2 new shows I thought were bloody amazing. MM is filled with just as much (if not more) energy as MP was, he just displays that differently than MP. And the band still sound terrific and spot on.
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I agree with that, too. As for the second part, I think ADToE was overall better than the last couple of albums, certainly Black Clouds, but it's also lacking the highs that you got from SC and 8V. Each of those albums had a song that far surpassed anything from Mangini's album.
More importantly, my interest in them is as a live band, and that's where the loss of MP really kills them.
In what way do you see a loss? I've seen 3 shows with MP and 2 shows with MM, and the 2 new shows I thought were bloody amazing. MM is filled with just as much (if not more) energy as MP was, he just displays that differently than MP. And the band still sound terrific and spot on.
I tend to agree with this... I saw DT with MP 3 times and with MM once. I wouldn't say the show with MM was less energetic, MM just showed his energy differently than MP at times. And I think overall, the band was more energetic with MM...
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I really enjoyed them live El Barto on the last tour. Hard to look back when it's really MP's fault he isn't in the band anymore.
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Have to say, when I first saw them with MM it seemed like a love-fest between JM and MM :D Made me so happy to see JM emote on that level, anywhere haha.
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Mangini is a better drummer, and they seem much happier now, but they were absolutely a better band when Portnoy was drumming. It's not even close, frankly.
They were also a better band when Kevin Moore was in the band - yes, I went there! :biggrin: - but that was the past. The shake-up was what DT needed, and while I doubt Dream Theater will ever reach the consistent heights of 1992-2002 again, A Dramatic Turn of Events was an upgrade over everything they had done post-2002, IMO, and hopes are obviously high for the new one, so I think this current lineup is what is best for Dream Theater in 2013.
I think DT had been pretty stale anything post-FII, pre ADTOE. SFAM is good, and it might just be album fatigue from me, but I never listen to anything from that time period.
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Not at all. He had his great work in DT, but it's Mangini's turn. The last 3 albums with Portnoy are my least favorite DT albums. Not sure if it's a coincidence or not.
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I wouldn't want to see Portnoy back in DT. He's happier now, and they're being really creative again. The last 3 albums or so with Mike were just awful (to me) and formulaic. ADTOE seemed to show the creativity they're capable of. I'm not too crazy about the new single but it's one song. I'm hopeful the new album is even better than ADTOE - and that one was awesome!
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I agree with that, too. As for the second part, I think ADToE was overall better than the last couple of albums, certainly Black Clouds, but it's also lacking the highs that you got from SC and 8V. Each of those albums had a song that far surpassed anything from Mangini's album.
More importantly, my interest in them is as a live band, and that's where the loss of MP really kills them.
In what way do you see a loss? I've seen 3 shows with MP and 2 shows with MM, and the 2 new shows I thought were bloody amazing. MM is filled with just as much (if not more) energy as MP was, he just displays that differently than MP. And the band still sound terrific and spot on.
MP brought, among other things, a spontaneity that's now lacking. I saw half a dozen or so shows with MP and they were all different. Even the Maiden tour which was the same setlist was two different performances. I've seen 5 MM shows and with one exception they were all cookie-cutter shows. Even with different setlists they were still the same show. Honestly, the reason I bothered to see them twice last time around was because I lucked into a front row seat for the second one, and moreover I really wanted to see Crimson Projekct (who quite frankly blew them away one night).
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MP brought, among other things, a spontaneity that's now lacking. I saw half a dozen or so shows with MP and they were all different. Even the Maiden tour which was the same setlist was two different performances. I've seen 5 MM shows and with one exception they were all cookie-cutter shows. Even with different setlists they were still the same show. Honestly, the reason I bothered to see them twice last time around was because I lucked into a front row seat for the second one, and moreover I really wanted to see Crimson Projekct (who quite frankly blew them away one night).
I'll give you that MP was more outwardly spontaneous. But I see MM as more sort of just being in awe, still, that he made it into such an amazing band and is getting to play with them. He's very focused on his playing and his performance musically, which honestly is something MP started being lazy about towards the end, with sloppy performances on occasion that I've mostly ignored. I personally appreciate that MM seems to play every show just as flawlessly as the last. I guess I just feel the energy, between the band members, more than see it. And while yes, Portnoy was more exciting sometimes to watch and spontaneous, the other members certainly weren't partaking in that all that often. There is some truth to that argument that MP was always trying to be the frontman. I don't believe in that to the extreme that others do, and I did enjoy his antics usually, but it is still true. I feel like the band as a whole are now enjoying themselves more than in a long time, and are creating a synergy that doesn't need to be seen on a visual level; it's in the music. For me, at least.
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But like I said, if we could have Mike Portnoy in the band, and have the band maintain the same kind of energy and spirit that they had after Scenes From A Memory, I'd be all for it. But those days are gone now.
nuggetz
7+ pages later, and you are the first one to notice that. Or the first one to bother reading my post. Either way: :clap:
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MP brought, among other things, a spontaneity that's now lacking. I saw half a dozen or so shows with MP and they were all different. Even the Maiden tour which was the same setlist was two different performances. I've seen 5 MM shows and with one exception they were all cookie-cutter shows. Even with different setlists they were still the same show. Honestly, the reason I bothered to see them twice last time around was because I lucked into a front row seat for the second one, and moreover I really wanted to see Crimson Projekct (who quite frankly blew them away one night).
I'll give you that MP was more outwardly spontaneous. But I see MM as more sort of just being in awe, still, that he made it into such an amazing band and is getting to play with them. He's very focused on his playing and his performance musically, which honestly is something MP started being lazy about towards the end, with sloppy performances on occasion that I've mostly ignored. I personally appreciate that MM seems to play every show just as flawlessly as the last. I guess I just feel the energy, between the band members, more than see it. And while yes, Portnoy was more exciting sometimes to watch and spontaneous, the other members certainly weren't partaking in that all that often. There is some truth to that argument that MP was always trying to be the frontman. I don't believe in that to the extreme that others do, and I did enjoy his antics usually, but it is still true. I feel like the band as a whole are now enjoying themselves more than in a long time, and are creating a synergy that doesn't need to be seen on a visual level; it's in the music. For me, at least.
There's something to be said for sloppy. I've never seen DT bungle things to the extent that it was problematic, so a little fail here and there is something that provides heart and humanity. Sheer precision is neat and all, but it's not really why I go to concerts. I'll pay to see that once. No point in seeing it twice.
Interesting corollary. I saw Yes a while back, and I noticed they're one of the few bands still using wedge monitors up front. No in-ear monitors. No click tracks. It was as a consequence sloppier than what we see in modern concerts nowadays. It was also wonderful watching those guys play with each other, live, rather than just trying to reproduce what you hear on the albums. Yes was nowhere near as tight as DT, not even close, but they're a more entertaining live act by a country mile. I would (and subsequently did) travel to see multiple shows from them.
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I agree .
Why go see a band who play to a click track and have samples from the album playing over the top ?
That means they can never improvise or play anything unexpected ever because they're stuck to a grid.
My friend Harry is in a band called No Consequence and their entire live show is on a computer and they use Axe FX.
They literally just press play and all the MIDI does everything. The drums are triggered. The Axe FX changes ALL the guitar sounds AND TUNINGS at the
correct time and plays vocal harmonies etc...
Why even bother being in a band ?
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There's something to be said for sloppy. I've never seen DT bungle things to the extent that it was problematic, so a little fail here and there is something that provides heart and humanity. Sheer precision is neat and all, but it's not really why I go to concerts. I'll pay to see that once. No point in seeing it twice.
Interesting corollary. I saw Yes a while back, and I noticed they're one of the few bands still using wedge monitors up front. No in-ear monitors. No click tracks. It was as a consequence sloppier than what we see in modern concerts nowadays. It was also wonderful watching those guys play with each other, live, rather than just trying to reproduce what you hear on the albums. Yes was nowhere near as tight as DT, not even close, but they're a more entertaining live act by a country mile. I would (and subsequently did) travel to see multiple shows from them.
Well that makes us a little different, then. I do go to Dream Theater shows to see virtuosos recreate what I've heard on the album in a live setting. It's absolutely incredible. Granted, I am disappointed with their choice to start using click tracks after ADTOE (that is correct, isn't it?), especially given Mangini's incredible time-keeping ability, according to himself and JP, but mainly because that means they don't get to show off how good they are at keeping time themselves. But I have never been disappointed by a Dream Theater show, not with MP, not with MM. You and I seem to just have different preferences for drummers. I love Mangini the most out of all the drummers I've listened to because he is incredibly technical and precise but I still feel a groove in his playing. It's very subtle, but it's there. He plays dynamically, too, not just pounding on everything all the time (something that was a very bad habit of mine, in my own drumming).
Ultimately, this is why I'm a die-hard DT fan. They play unbelievably crazy-ass stuff all over the place, invoking the musically weird and fun, as well, yet still somehow manage to evoke emotional responses from me because their songwriting skills are also very very good. And, in live shows, they can recreate that same experience with near-perfect precision (barring JLB :/ ). I go to DT concerts to be in awe of incredible musicians playing for me, the same reason I go to San Francisco orchestra concerts or (especially) guest orchestra concerts like Boston Symphony Orchestra. It's virtuosic. If I want to see guys jam together on stage I'll probably go see a different band. Please note I'm not denouncing Yes in any way, I love their music too. I'm just generalizing.
To ramble on even more for you...Yes, I miss the rotating setlists. I miss the random appearances of funny melodies in the middle of songs (example, Under A Glass Moon on Score, I think). I miss the aforementioned non-use of a click-track. But all these things are minor nuisances in an otherwise incredible experience for me.
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There's something to be said for sloppy. I've never seen DT bungle things to the extent that it was problematic, so a little fail here and there is something that provides heart and humanity. Sheer precision is neat and all, but it's not really why I go to concerts. I'll pay to see that once. No point in seeing it twice.
Interesting corollary. I saw Yes a while back, and I noticed they're one of the few bands still using wedge monitors up front. No in-ear monitors. No click tracks. It was as a consequence sloppier than what we see in modern concerts nowadays. It was also wonderful watching those guys play with each other, live, rather than just trying to reproduce what you hear on the albums. Yes was nowhere near as tight as DT, not even close, but they're a more entertaining live act by a country mile. I would (and subsequently did) travel to see multiple shows from them.
Well that makes us a little different, then. I do go to Dream Theater shows to see virtuosos recreate what I've heard on the album in a live setting. It's absolutely incredible. Granted, I am disappointed with their choice to start using click tracks after ADTOE (that is correct, isn't it?), especially given Mangini's incredible time-keeping ability, according to himself and JP, but mainly because that means they don't get to show off how good they are at keeping time themselves. But I have never been disappointed by a Dream Theater show, not with MP, not with MM. You and I seem to just have different preferences for drummers. I love Mangini the most out of all the drummers I've listened to because he is incredibly technical and precise but I still feel a groove in his playing. It's very subtle, but it's there. He plays dynamically, too, not just pounding on everything all the time (something that was a very bad habit of mine, in my own drumming).
Ultimately, this is why I'm a die-hard DT fan. They play unbelievably crazy-ass stuff all over the place, invoking the musically weird and fun, as well, yet still somehow manage to evoke emotional responses from me because their songwriting skills are also very very good. And, in live shows, they can recreate that same experience with near-perfect precision (barring JLB :/ ). I go to DT concerts to be in awe of incredible musicians playing for me, the same reason I go to San Francisco orchestra concerts or (especially) guest orchestra concerts like Boston Symphony Orchestra. It's virtuosic. If I want to see guys jam together on stage I'll probably go see a different band. Please note I'm not denouncing Yes in any way, I love their music too. I'm just generalizing.
To ramble on even more for you...Yes, I miss the rotating setlists. I miss the random appearances of funny melodies in the middle of songs (example, Under A Glass Moon on Score, I think). I miss the aforementioned non-use of a click-track. But all these things are minor nuisances in an otherwise incredible experience for me.
This is correct.
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This is correct.
Thank you for your stamp of approval, BOOLsheet ^_^ :tup
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Well that makes us a little different, then. I do go to Dream Theater shows to see virtuosos recreate what I've heard on the album in a live setting. It's absolutely incredible. Granted, I am disappointed with their choice to start using click tracks after ADTOE (that is correct, isn't it?), especially given Mangini's incredible time-keeping ability, according to himself and JP, but mainly because that means they don't get to show off how good they are at keeping time themselves. But I have never been disappointed by a Dream Theater show, not with MP, not with MM. You and I seem to just have different preferences for drummers. I love Mangini the most out of all the drummers I've listened to because he is incredibly technical and precise but I still feel a groove in his playing. It's very subtle, but it's there. He plays dynamically, too, not just pounding on everything all the time (something that was a very bad habit of mine, in my own drumming).
Ultimately, this is why I'm a die-hard DT fan. They play unbelievably crazy-ass stuff all over the place, invoking the musically weird and fun, as well, yet still somehow manage to evoke emotional responses from me because their songwriting skills are also very very good. And, in live shows, they can recreate that same experience with near-perfect precision (barring JLB :/ ). I go to DT concerts to be in awe of incredible musicians playing for me, the same reason I go to San Francisco orchestra concerts or (especially) guest orchestra concerts like Boston Symphony Orchestra. It's virtuosic. If I want to see guys jam together on stage I'll probably go see a different band. Please note I'm not denouncing Yes in any way, I love their music too. I'm just generalizing.
To ramble on even more for you...Yes, I miss the rotating setlists. I miss the random appearances of funny melodies in the middle of songs (example, Under A Glass Moon on Score, I think). I miss the aforementioned non-use of a click-track. But all these things are minor nuisances in an otherwise incredible experience for me.
To be clear, it's not that I prefer Portnoy to Mangini as a drummer (although I do). It's that I prefer Portnoy's DT to Mangini's DT in the live setting. Unfortunately, their studio work hasn't really done a whole lot for me in a while. It was that live setting that I really liked them in.
As a secondary point, also consider some of the songs we'll never get to hear them play again. Aside from the fact that they'll continue to play more and more Mangini material as they create more, there's the Portnoy specific songs that they probably won't play. I also suspect we're through hearing epics from that era, be they Portnoy related or not.
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More fair points. Forgot about that aspect, I am really disappointed that I'll probably never hear any of the 12-step suite live, especially TGP. However, I got a glimmer of hope with their latest tour's setlist because they have been playing TROAE, which is an MP song. Granted, a pretty easy one, relatively, but still. That means playing songs with MP lyrics is no longer completely out of the question. And what kind of epics are you referring to? Do you mean things like Octavarium, ITPOE, ITNOG...TOTears? I was under the impression that they already played those tracks VERY sparingly, anyway, before he left. So I hadn't really felt that I was any less likely to hear those tracks on tour (not saying I don't want to).
I just feel that I can't really hold the band to blame for not playing MP songs, if that is indeed the case and they're not ever going to play many MP-penned songs. If I'm going to place blame on someone, it'll be MP, since he is the one who left the band and needed a break, and I completely understand the band wanting to respect him by not playing a lot of that stuff.
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lol ALL DT songs are fair game for live performance from ANY era. The only exception would be The Best of Times possibly. Other than that, there is no reason to refrain from playing any song from the MP era whatsoever.
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I'm not casting blame on anybody. The question was if I'd like to see MP back, and I stated they were a better band with him in it. I suppose if I were to ascribe blame, it would be on MP, and I'm certainly aware of the fact that they all seem to be much happier and more functional with him gone. I suspect that at this point they're glad he left. Still, I don't think we'll ever see Glass Prison again. I know we won't see ACoS. Quite honestly, I suspect in five more years we'll only be seeing two or three pre-8V songs a tour, and that's just another reason I think MP's loss is our loss.
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There is no basis whatsoever to predict what DT will play live in 3-5 years. This extends to beyond the Along for the Ride tour, which is the only one on the horizon. We have no idea how their future set-lists will change.
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I'm not casting blame on anybody. The question was if I'd like to see MP back, and I stated they were a better band with him in it. I suppose if I were to ascribe blame, it would be on MP, and I'm certainly aware of the fact that they all seem to be much happier and more functional with him gone. I suspect that at this point they're glad he left. Still, I don't think we'll ever see Glass Prison again. I know we won't see ACoS. Quite honestly, I suspect in five more years we'll only be seeing two or three pre-8V songs a tour, and that's just another reason I think MP's loss is our loss.
I highly doubt that the count of pre-8vm songs will drop that low. They have been playing quite a lot of old songs on the current and previous tours, and I expect that to continue. If they were going to drop off old songs like that, if anything I'd attribute it to JLB not being able to sing them and sound good anymore as he reaches past middle age.
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I'm not casting blame on anybody. The question was if I'd like to see MP back, and I stated they were a better band with him in it. I suppose if I were to ascribe blame, it would be on MP, and I'm certainly aware of the fact that they all seem to be much happier and more functional with him gone. I suspect that at this point they're glad he left. Still, I don't think we'll ever see Glass Prison again. I know we won't see ACoS. Quite honestly, I suspect in five more years we'll only be seeing two or three pre-8V songs a tour, and that's just another reason I think MP's loss is our loss.
I highly doubt that the count of pre-8vm songs will drop that low. They have been playing quite a lot of old songs on the current and previous tours, and I expect that to continue. If they were going to drop off old songs like that, if anything I'd attribute it to JLB not being able to sing them and sound good anymore as he reaches past middle age.
They'll lose interest in playing songs that are 20 years old, when they prefer the newer material with MM. They'll play some fan service, but I suspect they'll want to focus on moving forward.
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Not sure MP staying would have changed that. Some dates on Black Clouds tour featured NO pre-Scenes material. ADTOE tours featured a lot of new material, but that tour was the first time fans as a whole clamored for the band to play more of it.
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Regarding the AAA suite never being played, I still maintain that's one of most positive aspects of MP leaving. Had it been a fixed element on some tour it would have been a showstopper for me.
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Regarding the AAA suite never being played, I still maintain that's one of most positive aspects of MP leaving. Had it been a fixed element on some tour it would have been a showstopper for me.
Yeah, I agree. However, TGP alone would have been a surefire ticket for me.
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I see no reason Glass Prison would be off-limits if The Root of All Evil isn't. We have no reason to believe ACOS is out of the question either.
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Right. If ACOS isn't played anymore, it will likely be because the band deems it too long to play. Sounds crazy, but I remember Setlist Scotty saying that JP said The Count... wasn't played much on the last tour cause it was too long. Granted, those were shows with openers, so it could be different now that they are going back to Evening With... shows, at least on the upcoming tour.
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I'd love it if they played the 12 Steps Suite live. No complaints here.
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Granted, another 20-minute epic on the upcoming tour seems unlikely since we have Illumination Theory, but if they stick with the evening-with format on the following tours, I'll bet they'll dust off ACOS or 8V.
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I'd love it if they played the 12 Steps Suite live. No complaints here.
I'd love if they played this too. I would guess it won't ever happen all the way through. I've always thought that was MPs baby. Its very personal to him, so I'd think they'd shy away from playing it all the way through.
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I believe they have joint custody over those songs. MP wrote the lyrics about a personal issue, but it was still a collective effort. The MP's baby excuse just doesn't fly with me anymore... It never really did.
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I haven't seen them live since MP left the band. They've played some of the songs from the AA Suite live haven't they?
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They played The Root of All Evil several times on the last tour.
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:dunno:
I'd like to see them play the whole thing live. The songs need to be heard back to back at least once. Don't really know why they haven't, if they have "joint custody" of the songs, except maybe out of respect for MP?
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Even MP admitted afterwards that the whole thing became way too dragged out and more like a chore in the end.
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Even MP admitted afterwards that the whole thing became way too dragged out and more like a chore in the end.
And I've never even liked it! Repentance is boring as balls! :D
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Even MP admitted afterwards that the whole thing became way too dragged out and more like a chore in the end.
And I've never even liked it! Repentance is boring as balls! :D
+ TSF as well.
TGP and TDS are amazing, TROAE is great, the last two are forgettable IMO.
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Even MP admitted afterwards that the whole thing became way too dragged out and more like a chore in the end.
And I've never even liked it! Repentance is boring as balls! :D
+ TSF as well.
TGP and TDS are amazing, TROAE is great, the last two are forgettable IMO.
Yeah TSF too . I was waiting for an epic ending , but I found it kinda big let down ._.
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Even MP admitted afterwards that the whole thing became way too dragged out and more like a chore in the end.
And I've never even liked it! Repentance is boring as balls! :D
+ TSF as well.
TGP and TDS are amazing, TROAE is great, the last two are forgettable IMO.
Agree with it. Even if JP solo on TSF is kinda underrated IMO.
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Completely disagree with you guys, TSF was the best 12-step song since TGP for me. TDS is easily the weakest.
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Completely disagree with you guys, TSF was the best 12-step song since TGP for me. TDS is easily the weakest.
Well , you wanna know why you disagree.. COS YOU ARE WRONG!!
:rollin
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Completely disagree with you guys, TSF was the best 12-step song since TGP for me. TDS is easily the weakest.
Well this opinion is objectively wrong
;)
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Completely disagree with you guys, TSF was the best 12-step song since TGP for me.
Same here. Well, TSF is pretty much on par with TROAE and TGP for me. The other two are pretty solid, but the point is, TSF was a great closer to the suite, and is highly underrated.
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I think Mike was cancerous to the band.
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I think Mike was cancerous to the band.
Come on snapple, you should really know the rules better by now. Constructive criticism is fine, but this sort of bashing is unacceptable. You've had a few warnings in the past, so please be more respectful unless you want to be banned.
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Not the word I would have used but his *influence* towards the end was definitely
hectoring hampering the relationships and direction of the band.
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I think Mike was cancerous to the band.
Come on snapple, you should really know the rules better by now. Constructive criticism is fine, but this sort of bashing is unacceptable. You've had a few warnings in the past, so please be more respectful unless you want to be banned.
Musically cancerous? Would that have been a better choice of words? It's what I meant. Nothing 8VM-BCSL sounded interesting, at all, to me. And I've figured it was kind of his doing.
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:sadpanda: Why does everyone lump Octavarium in with Systematic Chaos and Black Clouds ?
To me Octavarium is in the run of great albums from Scenes that ended with Systematic Chaos.
Moreover - Octavarium is my absolute favourite Dream Theater album.
I love how it sounds - it has a nice vibe throughout. I don't skip a single song and the title track hasn't been beaten since IMO.
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I think Mike was cancerous to the band.
Come on snapple, you should really know the rules better by now. Constructive criticism is fine, but this sort of bashing is unacceptable. You've had a few warnings in the past, so please be more respectful unless you want to be banned.
Musically cancerous? Would that have been a better choice of words? It's what I meant. Nothing 8VM-BCSL sounded interesting, at all, to me. And I've figured it was kind of his doing.
I think Mike was cancerous to the band.
Come on snapple, you should really know the rules better by now. Constructive criticism is fine, but this sort of bashing is unacceptable. You've had a few warnings in the past, so please be more respectful unless you want to be banned.
Musically cancerous? Would that have been a better choice of words? It's what I meant. Nothing 8VM-BCSL sounded interesting, at all, to me. And I've figured it was kind of his doing.
I don't think that's fully true. I think the move away from the proggyness is down to Mike but moving to the heavier stuff (and there sometimes present chugga-chugga boringness) is definitely down to JP (as proven by his involvement with Periphery)
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They'll lose interest in playing songs that are 20 years old, when they prefer the newer material with MM. They'll play some fan service, but I suspect they'll want to focus on moving forward.
You say this like you know it as fact. Also, by your statement does that mean that every band who has been around for 20+ years dislikes playing their old material?
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Even MP admitted afterwards that the whole thing became way too dragged out and more like a chore in the end.
And I've never even liked it! Repentance is boring as balls! :D
+ TSF as well.
TGP and TDS are amazing, TROAE is great, the last two are forgettable IMO.
Exactly how I feel too. The Glass Prison and This Dying Soul are two of my favorite Dream theater tracks, so hearing them back to back would be awesome. The Root of All Evil and The Shattered Fortress are just meh to me and Repentance is one of my least favorite DT songs.
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I don't think that's fully true. I think the move away from the proggyness is down to Mike but moving to the heavier stuff (and there sometimes present chugga-chugga boringness) is definitely down to JP (as proven by his involvement with Periphery)
Isn't JP involvement with Periphery purely due to his relation to Bowen? I doubt he guest solos on their record if they weren't related.
Also, I always thought that Mike was the one to championed their "proggy" side, in the classic sense.
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I don't think that's fully true. I think the move away from the proggyness is down to Mike but moving to the heavier stuff (and there sometimes present chugga-chugga boringness) is definitely down to JP (as proven by his involvement with Periphery)
Isn't JP involvement with Periphery purely due to his relation to Bowen? I doubt he guest solos on their record if they weren't related.
Also, I always thought that Mike was the one to championed their "proggy" side, in the classic sense.
He definitely go involved with them because of Bowen but I think he wanted to because he seems to be in this very djent-y space at the moment. That's what I'm thinking anyway.
Mike used to be the biggest promoter of the prog route in DT but in the past 5-10 years, he's gone down the more mainstream track and tried to rein in the weirdness and try to go as straight rock/metal as possible without losing too much off their identity. Maybe it's because of JLB's vocal issues, I don't know
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I think I'll have to wait for this album to release and probably the next one before I make a decision. ADTOE for me was a pretty big disappointment, I listen to just about every other DT album before listening to even one song from ADTOE. So if this one feels the same, along with the next, I'll be able to conclude MP's influence was greater than what I initially thought.
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Mike used to be the biggest promoter of the prog route in DT but in the past 5-10 years, he's gone down the more mainstream track and tried to rein in the weirdness and try to go as straight rock/metal as possible without losing too much off their identity. Maybe it's because of JLB's vocal issues, I don't know
Yeah you are right... I think before MP left, he pushed the band in a prog direction at one point, a more straight forward rock/metal direction, and a pure metal direction. I think he pushed the band in whatever direction he was personally musically into at that point in time. Which started to dilute DT's identity and uniqueness. And that became the problem.
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Mike used to be the biggest promoter of the prog route in DT but in the past 5-10 years, he's gone down the more mainstream track and tried to rein in the weirdness and try to go as straight rock/metal as possible without losing too much off their identity. Maybe it's because of JLB's vocal issues, I don't know
Yeah you are right... I think before MP left, he pushed the band in a prog direction at one point, a more straight forward rock/metal direction, and a pure metal direction. I think he pushed the band in whatever direction he was personally musically into at that point in time. Which started to dilute DT's identity and uniqueness. And that became the problem.
I do agree with you, and it's evident in the DT material. It's just weird given Transatlantic and everything else MP does with Neal Morse. Clearly he loves the classic prog vibe, so why didn't he push it more into DT?
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I know that not many people will agree with this, but I am actually happy that he didn't do so. BC&SL and SC are still more enjoyable to me than most classic prog that I know.
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:sadpanda: Why does everyone lump Octavarium in with Systematic Chaos and Black Clouds ?
To me Octavarium is in the run of great albums from Scenes that ended with Systematic Chaos.
Moreover - Octavarium is my absolute favourite Dream Theater album.
I love how it sounds - it has a nice vibe throughout. I don't skip a single song and the title track hasn't been beaten since IMO.
This.
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I know that not many people will agree with this, but I am actually happy that he didn't do so. BC&SL and SC are still more enjoyable to me than most classic prog that I know.
My eyes are bleeding from reading that.
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I do agree with you, and it's evident in the DT material. It's just weird given Transatlantic and everything else MP does with Neal Morse. Clearly he loves the classic prog vibe, so why didn't he push it more into DT?
Yep, it is weird. I guess MP was getting his fill of classic prog style material in those projects and had a completely different vision for DT.
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I know that not many people will agree with this, but I am actually happy that he didn't do so. BC&SL and SC are still more enjoyable to me than most classic prog that I know.
My eyes are bleeding from reading that.
Well... mine aren't. :P Seriously, I could never get into most prog rock, aside from the odd song here and there - Karn Evil 9, Starless, Firth of Fifth are some examples - but it almost never grabs me, and that's probably largely due to (and I know that I'm HUGELY generalising here, so bear with me) that it contains a large amount of bombast which I find unlistenable without a certain heaviness, a certain bite to counter that, which prog rock - or those examples of it that I know - only seldom offers.
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Completely disagree with you guys, TSF was the best 12-step song since TGP for me. TDS is easily the weakest.
This. But I think this idea that the "12-step suite just has to be played live" is just silly. Those five songs, one after another, would get tedious real fast, because of the countless recurring riffs and melodies and lyrics. Not to mention that they do not naturally flow into another.
:sadpanda: Why does everyone lump Octavarium in with Systematic Chaos and Black Clouds ?
To me Octavarium is in the run of great albums from Scenes that ended with Systematic Chaos.
Moreover - Octavarium is my absolute favourite Dream Theater album.
I love how it sounds - it has a nice vibe throughout. I don't skip a single song and the title track hasn't been beaten since IMO.
Because the songwriting is very uneven on that record, much like it is on Systematic Chaos. It's almost like, they put so much effort into the whole Octavarium thing - writing every song in a different key - that they put themselves in a corner and came out of it saying, "Yeah, we pulled it off," but the songwriting, which was dictated by the whole key/8V thing, suffered greatly. Songwriting is at its best when creativity flows naturally, not when guys say, "Okay, this song HAS to be written in G."
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Have to agree regarding the "12 Step Suite" - I would not want to hear all of those songs back to back. Just thinking about the potential songs that could eliminate from a live set depresses me. I've listened to them all straight through before and it wore me out by the end of it.
And concerning ever wanting MP back, I have to agree with everyone else saying, "why?".
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This. But I think this idea that the "12-step suite just has to be played live" is just silly. Those five songs, one after another, would get tedious real fast, because of the countless recurring riffs and melodies and lyrics. Not to mention that they do not naturally flow into another.
Actually they do flow together....
Search for it on YouTube. There's an excellent video that puts all the transitions together near perfectly, because the first 3 songs were designed that way intentionally, in fact.
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I'd remove that link, so you don't get boskinated. :tup
And of course they flow together. They were written that way. They actually work much better together as a whole than you'd expect from the individual songs. I don't even mind TSF in the context of the whole thing, although it's the only part of the 12SS I don't much like at all on its own.
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This. But I think this idea that the "12-step suite just has to be played live" is just silly. Those five songs, one after another, would get tedious real fast, because of the countless recurring riffs and melodies and lyrics. Not to mention that they do not naturally flow into another.
Actually they do flow together....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWQU8Jisb6k
(Don't ask me why that vid starts at 40 something minutes in.... :huh: )
??? Taking away the fact that the maker of that took liberties with ending The Glass Prison early/putting the beginning of This Dying Soul over the end of TGP, chopping off the beginning of The Root of All Evil, etc., the transitions are still awkward and do not sound natural at all.
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They did a bad job of cutting TGP into TDS, but the songs are clearly written to go right into each other with the same bar ending one, and starting the next. When edited properly, it is seamless. I've done it myself.
And the intro of TROAE is not intended to be cut off, so they just messed up editing them together. I'm sure the intro was intended as a break to swap guitars, because they're not in the same tuning, so they were written with the continuity in mind.
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Completely disagree with you guys, TSF was the best 12-step song since TGP for me. TDS is easily the weakest.
This. But I think this idea that the "12-step suite just has to be played live" is just silly. Those five songs, one after another, would get tedious real fast, because of the countless recurring riffs and melodies and lyrics. Not to mention that they do not naturally flow into another.
From the standpoint of having to sit through it at a concert, I completely agree with you. From the standpoint of being able to pop in a CD/DVD to enjoy it when I'm in the rare mood for the entire thing, I wish it had been done as a one-off.
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I do agree with you, and it's evident in the DT material. It's just weird given Transatlantic and everything else MP does with Neal Morse. Clearly he loves the classic prog vibe, so why didn't he push it more into DT?
On the flip side, you have Mike's band Adrenaline Mob and his involvement with Avenged Sevenfold (until they canned him :haha:)
He just loves music, I guess and wanted to create as much as possible and, in the end, didn't care which band produced what as long as he was creating. I am glad that he's finally settled on to one genre now though and I have to admit that I LOVE the Winery Dogs album
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I'd remove that link, so you don't get boskinated. :tup
And of course they flow together. They were written that way. They actually work much better together as a whole than you'd expect from the individual songs. I don't even mind TSF in the context of the whole thing, although it's the only part of the 12SS I don't much like at all on its own.
I completely agree with what you say. TSF works in context as the closer, but by itself I'm really meh about it. Except for the very end of it. I was like shitting my pants when I heard the reprise of the TGP opening melody, and then it ends off with the bell from TGP in between the riff from TROAE, and then they leave it unresolved just like that guitar chord from TROAE!!!!! So fabulous.
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??? Taking away the fact that the maker of that took liberties with ending The Glass Prison early/putting the beginning of This Dying Soul over the end of TGP, chopping off the beginning of The Root of All Evil, etc., the transitions are still awkward and do not sound natural at all.
The beginning of TDS is very specifically the exact same cadence and chords as the ending of TGS, so that transition sounds pretty much exactly how they would've played it together. I agree I want the slow intro of TROAE in that transition, just a personal preference with someone cutting these all together. TROAE transitioning to Repentance is really cool because it ends on an unresolved chord, then Repentance is in that key....beautiful imo. I believe Repentance to TSF is also the same key.
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:sadpanda: Why does everyone lump Octavarium in with Systematic Chaos and Black Clouds ?
To me Octavarium is in the run of great albums from Scenes that ended with Systematic Chaos.
Moreover - Octavarium is my absolute favourite Dream Theater album.
I love how it sounds - it has a nice vibe throughout. I don't skip a single song and the title track hasn't been beaten since IMO.
QFT. 8VM is "only" my second favourite, but apart from that, I agree 1000000000%.
EDIT: I wouldn't call SDOIT a "great album", so maybe only 999999999% ;)
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:sadpanda: Why does everyone lump Octavarium in with Systematic Chaos and Black Clouds ?
To me Octavarium is in the run of great albums from Scenes that ended with Systematic Chaos.
Moreover - Octavarium is my absolute favourite Dream Theater album.
I love how it sounds - it has a nice vibe throughout. I don't skip a single song and the title track hasn't been beaten since IMO.
Well, I could always ask, why are you lumping Systematic Chaos and Black Clouds. I think Systematic Chaos is an amazing album, whereas Black Clouds was like Systematic Chaos, only stripped of its progressive and melodic sense, and with poorly written lyrics.
But to be more fair, I don't think any DT album should be lumped with any other one. I think they all have enough of a sonic difference to say, "This is what makes this album unique." And even the albums that I'd say are my least favorite, are my least favorite for completely different reasons.
Which makes me feel like, if someone doesn't like two albums for the same reason (i.e. They're too heavy, not progressive enough, or overcompressed, or whatever) then that just says more about their personal taste in music, and not about the quality of the actual albums.
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:sadpanda: Why does everyone lump Octavarium in with Systematic Chaos and Black Clouds ?
To me Octavarium is in the run of great albums from Scenes that ended with Systematic Chaos.
Moreover - Octavarium is my absolute favourite Dream Theater album.
I love how it sounds - it has a nice vibe throughout. I don't skip a single song and the title track hasn't been beaten since IMO.
Well, I could always ask, why are you lumping Systematic Chaos and Black Clouds. I think Systematic Chaos is an amazing album, whereas Black Clouds was like Systematic Chaos, only stripped of its progressive and melodic sense, and with poorly written lyrics.
But to be more fair, I don't think any DT album should be lumped with any other one. I think they all have enough of a sonic difference to say, "This is what makes this album unique." And even the albums that I'd say are my least favorite, are my least favorite for completely different reasons.
Which makes me feel like, if someone doesn't like two albums for the same reason (i.e. They're too heavy, not progressive enough, or overcompressed, or whatever) then that just says more about their personal taste in music, and not about the quality of the actual albums.
That is like the best overall description of DT albums I've ever read. Couldn't have said it better myself :clap:
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Great post indeed :tup
I recently rediscovered SC and WDADU, and although WDADU is still my least favourite due to the lack of truly amazing songs, I'd say that BC&SL and SDOIT are the only DT albums I don't enjoy all the way through, although a lot of songs from these two records are great and I don't consider them bad albums at all, just ones that are only "good". Of course, there are songs in the DT catalogue that I'm not the biggest fan of, but their discography is truly impressive, 11 albums and none of those even come close to being bad.
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Completely disagree with you guys, TSF was the best 12-step song since TGP for me. TDS is easily the weakest.
This. But I think this idea that the "12-step suite just has to be played live" is just silly. Those five songs, one after another, would get tedious real fast, because of the countless recurring riffs and melodies and lyrics. Not to mention that they do not naturally flow into another.
:sadpanda: Why does everyone lump Octavarium in with Systematic Chaos and Black Clouds ?
To me Octavarium is in the run of great albums from Scenes that ended with Systematic Chaos.
Moreover - Octavarium is my absolute favourite Dream Theater album.
I love how it sounds - it has a nice vibe throughout. I don't skip a single song and the title track hasn't been beaten since IMO.
Because the songwriting is very uneven on that record, much like it is on Systematic Chaos. It's almost like, they put so much effort into the whole Octavarium thing - writing every song in a different key - that they put themselves in a corner and came out of it saying, "Yeah, we pulled it off," but the songwriting, which was dictated by the whole key/8V thing, suffered greatly. Songwriting is at its best when creativity flows naturally, not when guys say, "Okay, this song HAS to be written in G."
I think the idea of Octavarium was pretty cool. As far as songwriting goes, it's pretty easy to transpose keys for most things, so that would be a non-issue. I just think about half the songs on Octavarium aren't all that good original sounding. Part of the problem -at least for me- was this seemed to be the height of Dream Theater's "copping other bands' sounds" period. This lead to a plethora of tracks that sound like "Dream Theater doing a U2 impression" or "Dream Theater trying to sound like Muse" when most of us would have preferred that Dream Theater just be....Dream Theater.
For me, personally, they could have made more records like "Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence" and maybe just explore and expand upon THEIR OWN sound on those subsequent albums. Instead they went with this inspiration corner thing and I think that actually worked against them.
Despite all of that, based on the way ADTOE sounded and on what I'm hearing about the new single and how it sounds.....I'm starting to wonder if Dream Theater will ever put out another recording that sounds as good as Octavarium does on a sonic level? I mean, it's far from perfect, but Octavarium is pure sonic bliss compared to the wet-blanket-over-speakers sound of ADTOE.
Surely a band this far along in their career has SOMEONE to help them sound good?
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Despite all of that, based on the way ADTOE sounded and on what I'm hearing about the new single and how it sounds.....I'm starting to wonder if Dream Theater will ever put out another recording that sounds as good as Octavarium does on a sonic level? I mean, it's far from perfect, but Octavarium is pure sonic bliss compared to the wet-blanket-over-speakers sound of ADTOE.
Surely a band this far along in their career has SOMEONE to help them sound good?
While I don't quite agree with you about ADTOE (I enjoyed the way everything sounded except the bass drums, and sometimes JP's solos sounded too small), I can firmly agree that it seems as if the band has not had any consistency whatsoever in the production of their albums, since 8VM. I've always tried to ignore the fact that it might be because MP and JP became the producers starting with SC, but with each new album, that does seem more and more to be the culprit :/
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Whoever is correct about Octavarium in saying certain songs sound too much like DT doing U2 or Muse etc. This was one of the main problems though I appreciated MP's effort to explore new influences. However, the reason why those songs turned out to be atrocious is because DT is not U2, and DT is not a bad that writes music in same style. As a result it sounded like a band trying to write in a style they weren't very good in. Similarly, I don't think U2 would fare well writing progressive metal.
When one of the members of the band comes out and says I Walk Beside you was passed around to commercial radio for airplay, in the way that this tune presumably was, you know something has gone terribly wrong.
I also concur with what Kirk said about Octavarium in terms of production.
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Whoever is correct about Octavarium in saying certain songs sound too much like DT doing U2 or Muse etc. This was one of the main problems though I appreciated MP's effort to explore new influences. However, the reason why those songs turned out to be atrocious is because DT is not U2, and DT is not a bad that writes music in same style. As a result it sounded like a band trying to write in a style they weren't very good in. Similarly, I don't think U2 would fare well writing progressive metal.
When one of the members of the band comes out and says I Walk Beside you was passed around to commercial radio for airplay, in the way that this tune presumably was, you know something has gone terribly wrong.
I also concur with what Kirk said about Octavarium in terms of production.
Why is it a bad thing that I Walk Beside you was passed around to radio stations? :huh:
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Whoever is correct about Octavarium in saying certain songs sound too much like DT doing U2 or Muse etc. This was one of the main problems though I appreciated MP's effort to explore new influences. However, the reason why those songs turned out to be atrocious is because DT is not U2, and DT is not a bad that writes music in same style. As a result it sounded like a band trying to write in a style they weren't very good in. Similarly, I don't think U2 would fare well writing progressive metal.
When one of the members of the band comes out and says I Walk Beside you was passed around to commercial radio for airplay, in the way that this tune presumably was, you know something has gone terribly wrong.
I also concur with what Kirk said about Octavarium in terms of production.
Why is it a bad thing that I Walk Beside you was passed around to radio stations? :huh:
Passing a song onto a radio station on its face isn't bad. It was the logical conclusion of writing a song of this type.
Anyway, I hope this never happens again in the Mangini era.
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Whoever is correct about Octavarium in saying certain songs sound too much like DT doing U2 or Muse etc. This was one of the main problems though I appreciated MP's effort to explore new influences. However, the reason why those songs turned out to be atrocious is because DT is not U2, and DT is not a bad that writes music in same style. As a result it sounded like a band trying to write in a style they weren't very good in. Similarly, I don't think U2 would fare well writing progressive metal.
When one of the members of the band comes out and says I Walk Beside you was passed around to commercial radio for airplay, in the way that this tune presumably was, you know something has gone terribly wrong.
I also concur with what Kirk said about Octavarium in terms of production.
Why is it a bad thing that I Walk Beside you was passed around to radio stations? :huh:
Passing a song onto a radio station on its face isn't bad. It was the logical conclusion of writing a song of this type.
Anyway, I hope this never happens again in the Mangini era.
Well, I Walk Beside You has a very deep connection for me, personally, and even previous to making that connection, and after it's become less significant, I still find it to be a great song. I simply don't care that it's radio-friendly, or even that it was intended that way.
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Despite all of that, based on the way ADTOE sounded and on what I'm hearing about the new single and how it sounds.....I'm starting to wonder if Dream Theater will ever put out another recording that sounds as good as Octavarium does on a sonic level? I mean, it's far from perfect, but Octavarium is pure sonic bliss compared to the wet-blanket-over-speakers sound of ADTOE.
Surely a band this far along in their career has SOMEONE to help them sound good?
While I don't quite agree with you about ADTOE (I enjoyed the way everything sounded except the bass drums, and sometimes JP's solos sounded too small), I can firmly agree that it seems as if the band has not had any consistency whatsoever in the production of their albums, since 8VM. I've always tried to ignore the fact that it might be because MP and JP became the producers starting with SC, but with each new album, that does seem more and more to be the culprit :/
MP & JP became the producers with Scenes.
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Despite all of that, based on the way ADTOE sounded and on what I'm hearing about the new single and how it sounds.....I'm starting to wonder if Dream Theater will ever put out another recording that sounds as good as Octavarium does on a sonic level? I mean, it's far from perfect, but Octavarium is pure sonic bliss compared to the wet-blanket-over-speakers sound of ADTOE.
Surely a band this far along in their career has SOMEONE to help them sound good?
While I don't quite agree with you about ADTOE (I enjoyed the way everything sounded except the bass drums, and sometimes JP's solos sounded too small), I can firmly agree that it seems as if the band has not had any consistency whatsoever in the production of their albums, since 8VM. I've always tried to ignore the fact that it might be because MP and JP became the producers starting with SC, but with each new album, that does seem more and more to be the culprit :/
MP & JP became the producers with Scenes.
??? Was it that they became the Sole producers starting with SC? I could swear they say something like that on the special edition DVD.
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??? Was it that they became the Sole producers starting with SC? I could swear they say something like that on the special edition DVD.
They've been sole producers since SFAM. They back covers say produced by Mike Portnoy / John Petrucci for all of them.
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I don't think we'll ever see Glass Prison again. I know we won't see ACoS.
No reason to think this. I fully expect to see both songs again, hopefully on the upcoming tour.
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I don't think we'll ever see Glass Prison again. I know we won't see ACoS.
No reason to think this. I fully expect to see both songs again, hopefully on the upcoming tour.
ACoS without Portnoy :-\
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I don't think we'll ever see Glass Prison again. I know we won't see ACoS.
No reason to think this. I fully expect to see both songs again, hopefully on the upcoming tour.
ACoS without Portnoy :-\
Why the sad face? I would love to hear Mangini play on that song. Mainly because it would mean we would finally hear that song again.
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I don't think we'll ever see Glass Prison again. I know we won't see ACoS.
No reason to think this. I fully expect to see both songs again, hopefully on the upcoming tour.
ACoS without Portnoy :-\
Why the sad face? I would love to hear Mangini play on that song. Mainly because it would mean we would finally hear that song again.
I think it is sad to hear that song without Portnoy on drums ._. I always had this feeling like it was "his masterpiece".
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I think it is sad to hear that song without Portnoy on drums ._. I always had this feeling like it was "his masterpiece".
He may have wrote the lyrics, but it's not like he wrote the music all by himself, is it?
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I think it is sad to hear that song without Portnoy on drums ._. I always had this feeling like it was "his masterpiece".
He may have wrote the lyrics, but it's not like he wrote the music all by himself, is it?
propably not.
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I think it is sad to hear that song without Portnoy on drums ._. I always had this feeling like it was "his masterpiece".
He may have wrote the lyrics, but it's not like he wrote the music all by himself, is it?
propably not.
??? Definitely not.
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Right, so I wouldn't call it MP's masterpiece by a long shot. A Change Of Seasons belongs to the entirety of Dream Theater. I think it's one of the songs that defines the band, and there's no reason to say it belongs to MP. It's not Space-Dye Vest.
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Right, so I wouldn't call it MP's masterpiece by a long shot. A Change Of Seasons belongs to the entirety of Dream Theater. I think it's one of the songs that defines the band, and there's no reason to say it belongs to MP. It's not Space-Dye Vest.
Like i said, it has always felt like that for me. I'm not saying that it is. I'm sorry... If you wanted me to feel bad, you were succesful. :-\ :'(
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Geez... I'm sorry. There there. It's okay, it's okay. It's Portnoy's song, okay? .... Wanna go out for ice cream?
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Geez... I'm sorry. There there. It's okay, it's okay. It's Portnoy's song, okay? .... Wanna go out for ice cream?
It's okay :-[ Nef was talking about something called "Ice cold coffee" couple days back .. Can I have one of those?
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Right, so I wouldn't call it MP's masterpiece by a long shot. A Change Of Seasons belongs to the entirety of Dream Theater. I think it's one of the songs that defines the band, and there's no reason to say it belongs to MP. It's not Space-Dye Vest.
Call me dense if you must, but I don't get this. Don't all songs written in the band's career belong to the band? ???
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It's okay :-[ Nef was talking about something called "Ice cold coffee" couple days back .. Can I have one of those?
No, you'll be hyper all night.
Call me dense if you must, but I don't get this. Don't all songs written in the band's career belong to the band? ???
Well, yeah, but that's what I'm saying, they shouldn't feel like any of the songs are off limits just because the lyrics were personal to one of the former members.
But they have said in the past that Space-Dye Vest is pretty much a Kevin Moore song, and they wouldn't feel right playing it live.
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It's okay :-[ Nef was talking about something called "Ice cold coffee" couple days back .. Can I have one of those?
No, you'll be hyper all night.
Call me dense if you must, but I don't get this. Don't all songs written in the band's career belong to the band? ???
Well, yeah, but that's what I'm saying, they shouldn't feel like any of the songs are off limits just because the lyrics were personal to one of the former members.
But they have said in the past that Space-Dye Vest is pretty much a Kevin Moore song, and they wouldn't feel right playing it live.
For me it's almost the same with Pink Floyd - The Wall .. Wasn't Roger Waters the mastermind behind that recording? IMO It would feel weird to perform it without him .
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Didn't JLB and Jordan do it once? Might not be a whole band thing, but there's video of James and Jordan playing it to a small group.
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Didn't JLB and Jordan do it once? Might not be a whole band thing, but there's video of James and Jordan playing it to a small group.
Yeah, but that's why it might have been different. Because it's not like, "We're Dream Theater and this is our song, bitch." It was pretty much just the vocalist from that particular line up, and Jordan could have performed it as an homage to Kevin Moore more than "A Dream Theater Song."
I don't know, I mean, I wasn't there, so I don't know how they decided to do it, but I'm pretty sure that if it was the whole band, and JP had any say in it, he wouldn't have wanted to perform it.
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I agree with that, although that's a bit sad as well, because seeing SDV live would be a dream come true.
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I agree with that, although that's a bit sad as well, because seeing SDV live would be a dream come true.
I wish they had professionally recorded that JR & JLB concert. That would've been an excellent DVD addition to Ytsejam Records.
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I don't know, I mean, I wasn't there, so I don't know how they decided to do it, but I'm pretty sure that if it was the whole band, and JP had any say in it, he wouldn't have wanted to perform it.
I really hope time will prove this opinion wrong :'(
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I don't know, I mean, I wasn't there, so I don't know how they decided to do it, but I'm pretty sure that if it was the whole band, and JP had any say in it, he wouldn't have wanted to perform it.
I really hope time will prove this opinion wrong :'(
I really hope time will prove that opinion right. Blech. Sorry. :lol
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I really hope time will prove this opinion wrong :'(
It's been almost 20 years since Awake, and even back in MP days, when he rotated set lists, it didn't happen. I highly doubt it will now.
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I don't know, I mean, I wasn't there, so I don't know how they decided to do it, but I'm pretty sure that if it was the whole band, and JP had any say in it, he wouldn't have wanted to perform it.
I really hope time will prove this opinion wrong :'(
I really hope time will prove that opinion right. Blech. Sorry. :lol
Yeah I know :lol luckily you live upside-down so that counts as a +1 to my opinion in this Universe, which means fate will grant me the upper hand :neverusethis:
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I don't know, I mean, I wasn't there, so I don't know how they decided to do it, but I'm pretty sure that if it was the whole band, and JP had any say in it, he wouldn't have wanted to perform it.
I really hope time will prove this opinion wrong :'(
I really hope time will prove that opinion right. Blech. Sorry. :lol
Yeah I know :lol luckily you live upside-down so that counts as a +1 to my opinion in this Universe, which means fate will grant me the upper hand :neverusethis:
Nuh uh, the way it works is that my time zone is before yours, so my wishes get there first and win the race! You'll never catch up.
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I don't know, I mean, I wasn't there, so I don't know how they decided to do it, but I'm pretty sure that if it was the whole band, and JP had any say in it, he wouldn't have wanted to perform it.
I really hope time will prove this opinion wrong :'(
I really hope time will prove that opinion right. Blech. Sorry. :lol
Yeah I know :lol luckily you live upside-down so that counts as a +1 to my opinion in this Universe, which means fate will grant me the upper hand :neverusethis:
Nuh uh, the way it works is that my time zone is before yours, so my wishes get there first and win the race! You'll never catch up.
Nah, she's right. Opinions are like vectors and yours is opposite to hers, but you are also opposite to her in both frame of references, so you are only succeeding in bringing SDV closer and closer to existence once again. :tick:
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I don't know, I mean, I wasn't there, so I don't know how they decided to do it, but I'm pretty sure that if it was the whole band, and JP had any say in it, he wouldn't have wanted to perform it.
I really hope time will prove this opinion wrong :'(
I really hope time will prove that opinion right. Blech. Sorry. :lol
Yeah I know :lol luckily you live upside-down so that counts as a +1 to my opinion in this Universe, which means fate will grant me the upper hand :neverusethis:
Nuh uh, the way it works is that my time zone is before yours, so my wishes get there first and win the race! You'll never catch up.
Nah, she's right. Opinions are like vectors and yours is opposite to hers, but you are also opposite to her in both frame of references, so you are only succeeding in bringing SDV closer and closer to existence once again. :tick:
My vector is only opposite from her frame of reference, not both. And my vector has a greater magnitude because I'm more especially special. So I'm suppressing SDV further and further into the past, which is the only place it belongs! :getoffmylawn:
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I'M A GHOST AND I HAVE MAGICAL POWERS :mora:
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My vector is only opposite from her frame of reference...
I love it when you talk nerd :zydar: :blob:
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Phl2d4jeN90&feature=youtube_gdata_player
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Stop
vectoring hectoring each other! :lol
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I don't know, I mean, I wasn't there, so I don't know how they decided to do it, but I'm pretty sure that if it was the whole band, and JP had any say in it, he wouldn't have wanted to perform it.
MP was the only one who was vocally opposed to the idea of playing the song without Kevin, so I don't think it's impossible now. JP was the one to point out that Anna Lee wasn't 100% Derek's song, so maybe he thinks every DT song belongs to the whole band, no matter who wrote it. That said, I'm not holding my breath, although it's needless to say that hearing SDV live would make my life complete... :hefdaddy
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I think if they were going to play SDV at all now that Portnoy is gone, they would have done so on the ADTOE tour. I can't imagine why they'd wait until the second tour after his leaving to play it.
I'm not expecting to ever see it on a setlist.
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I'M A GHOST AND I HAVE MAGICAL POWERS :mora:
I think this wins the battle
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I think if they were going to play SDV at all now that Portnoy is gone, they would have done so on the ADTOE tour. I can't imagine why they'd wait until the second tour after his leaving to play it.
I'm not expecting to ever see it on a setlist.
When James was interviewed during the summer tour in 2011 he said the ADTOE tour is all about reestablishing the band and introducing Mangini to the fans, but it's not impossible that they might play some obscure songs on future tours. Also, Along for the Ride will be "an evening with DT" tour, so SDV could work as a nice breather in the long setlist and it could even be played as a James & Jordan duo version like the Tarrytown performance. As I said in my previous post I'm not sure they will play SDV, but I also can't see any reason why they shouldn't play it.
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I'M A GHOST AND I HAVE MAGICAL POWERS :mora:
I think this wins the battle
This, basically.
Anyways, didn't one of the band members say that Kevin just came in with Space Dye Vest as a complete song written by him? They always have said SDV was 100% Kevin's. ACoS, however, is Dream Theater, not just Mike's.
I would still rather they play Octavarium, but that's just me. However, with the inclusion of the new epic, Illumination Theory, we might not even get another epic, though that's doubtful considering it's an Evening With show with no openers (I'm pretty sure).
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I think if they were going to play SDV at all now that Portnoy is gone, they would have done so on the ADTOE tour. I can't imagine why they'd wait until the second tour after his leaving to play it.
I'm not expecting to ever see it on a setlist.
When James was interviewed during the summer tour in 2011 he said the ADTOE tour is all about reestablishing the band and introducing Mangini to the fans, but it's not impossible that they might play some obscure songs on future tours. Also, Along for the Ride will be "an evening with DT" tour, so SDV could work as a nice breather in the long setlist and it could even be played as a James & Jordan duo version like the Tarrytown performance. As I said in my previous post I'm not sure they will play SDV, but I also can't see any reason why they shouldn't play it.
Unless they wanna:
a) offend Kevin's feelings towards the song (which he documentedly doesn't have)
b) not play a song with lyrics penned by an ex-member, kind of like all the MP songs they didn't play... aw, wait, they played them
c) not play a song that's 100% Kevin Moore specifically, kind of like Wait For Sleep which they... DID play past tour (see a recurring pattern here? :P)
d) leave a song in their catalog unplayed for no reason
... they could play it. The only reasonable option is that they either don't like it - and James and Jordan seem to like it, so that leaves JP and JMX - or that they don't need a slow piano ballad in the set, and with three hours, they do.
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They could choose much better piano ballads to play.
Like any of them.
They should do Disappear.
They should do all of disc 1 of SDOIT. Fight the neglect!
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But...but Space Dye Vest is the best song off of Awake!
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They could choose much better piano ballads to play.
no
They should do all of disc 1 of SDOIT. Fight the neglect!
I would probably leave that show after TGP. Disappear is excellent too, and TGD is great, but having to sit through both Blind Faith and DT's weakest song to date would kill every bit of enthusiasm I would have had at the beginning.
But...but Space Dye Vest is the best song off of Awake!
:hifive:
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But...but Space Dye Vest is best left off Awake!
Fix'd for me.
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But...but Space Dye Vest is best left off Awake!
Fix'd for me.
And me.
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But...but Space Dye Vest is best left off Awake!
Fix'd for me.
:tup One of the reason I rank Awake right at the bottom.
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Didn't they play Disappear last tour?
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They could choose much better piano ballads to play.
Like any of them.
They should do Disappear.
They should do all of disc 1 of SDOIT. Fight the neglect!
Heck why not both of these things. It would make me happy.
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I am still not sure how great of a live song Space Dye Vest would be, and I wonder just how much of the average DT crowd would actually know the song. Not everyone is an internet junkie who knows every DT song like the back of their hand. ;) And I doubt the band would take the Portnoy approach of, "We have to play it once, just so we can say we played it."
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Didn't they play Disappear last tour?
As far as I know, no
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I just realized how much I miss Portnoy. Somehow I think he was the SOUL of Dream theater.
I'm going to try to explain why;
When Portnoy was around , I had this feeling like we fans were a lot more important. All the Portnoy's updates, messages etc. etc. made me feel like I was important to him.
Everyone knows that Portnoy loves his fans and he really can show it! I'm not trying to say that DT without Portnoy doesn't care about their fans. But When he was around I almost had this feeling like I was somehow part of Dream Theater.
But I don't get that feeling anymore.
When Portnoy was around the relationship with DT and fans could be described as "We" and now it is more like "Us and them".
But yeah, this was only my opinion :angel:
I'm interested to know what you guys think. :D
Agree 100% sorry I missed the poll. I Think Mike is happy with what he is doing now, but I only hope in a couple years the guys all come to their senses.
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Disappear and Space Dye Vest live would be so awesome. Disappear has only been played twice AFAIK.
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Yikes... :\
When did this thread become yet another discussion of "Will DT ever play _______ (insert song here written by ____ [insert former band member here]) live post-____(insert former band member here)?"
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"Mike was also asked whether he would one day be willing to reunite with DREAM THEATER and rejoin the band as their drummer. "Sure," he replied. "I would do it in a heartbeat. They are the ones that have closed the door on it. I've only needed a break, and I've had that break. So I'm ready, willing and able. But I honestly don't think they ever will; they've closed their door on it and I think they're too headstrong in having to prove themselves without me. So I wouldn't count on it. But my door is always open."
https://blabbermouth.net/news.aspx?mode=Article&newsitemID=193252
Only read this now, but man. 3 years later.
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Calling the band headstrong was a little silly, imo. I still feel like MP just doesn't think about the things he's going to say in interviews, as much as it sounds like he has premeditated stuff, because little things like that always come out and then people bash on him just for that, endlessly. And while I agree that he shouldn't be insulting his old band, I'm not always sure that he really means it in any kind of negative way.
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He should just not answer those questions. Simple as that.
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One of my main beefs with Mike whenever he mentions DT in interviews is that it still sounds like they pushed him out of the band.
The fact is he quit because 4/5 of the band didn´t agree with him - his own decision, his own fault.
He says that they have to "prove" themselves, that they need to show to the world that they can continue without him.
Well, off course they do! The fact is they proved it to the world two and a half years ago.. Jeez man..
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He should just not answer those questions. Simple as that.
I don't think he has your infinite wisdom.
rumborak
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Yikes... :\
When did this thread become yet another discussion of "Will DT ever play _______ (insert song here written by ____ [insert former band member here]) live post-____(insert former band member here)?"
It became that when someone said that DT will never play ACOS because it's Portnoy's song.
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Didn't they play Disappear last tour?
No. It's only been played twice ever, both on the TOT tour:
1) the awesome NY show
2) Budokan
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ACOS deserves to be replayed, but then again it's Portnoy's own angst story. ACOS won't be the same without Portnoy playing the drums. If they do ACOS, it must be with Portnoy.
I suppose Mangini would do it fine as well.
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As much as I want DT to be playing lots of those old Portnoy songs (OMG ACOS), because lots of them are my favorites, I completely understand and respect why they might not play some of them. I know that MP only wrote the lyrics, and the music is "Dream Theater's," but would you be comfortable playing a huge epic that is all about your ex-band-member-of-25-years' mother dying when he was a kid?
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ACOS deserves to be replayed, but then again it's Portnoy's own angst story. ACOS won't be the same without Portnoy playing the drums. If they do ACOS, it must be with Portnoy.
I suppose Mangini would do it fine as well.
What does this mean? Mangini is perfectly capable of playing anything Portnoy has played. They have already played songs that are "personal" to MP live.
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It means that ACOS needs Portnoy to have the traditional mindset and emotional feedback, that's all.
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I miss MP, as he was my favorite personality in DT, one of my personal heroes, and my favorite drummer of all time.
HOWEVER, I am actually glad that things happened the way they did. Here's why:
A little brief background on my feelings....
When the news dropped of MP leaving DT, I must admit that I thought to myself, "it's over."
I've always felt like MP had been the "adhesive" that kept DT, as a band, an entity, and as a business, together.
His OCD proved to be a valuable disorder, in that it forced him to be a work horse and be constantly working, never wasting any time. The guy never stops, and most importantly he has fun doing it!
I also felt that he was the "coolest" member of DT, in a sense that he brought a very colorful personality to the band with his extensive knowledge, his basketball jerseys, and his respect for modern metal, movies, TV shows, etc. And he is great in interviews! Of course all of these things seem petty, and they aren't requirements by any stretch, but they added another dimension to DT that broke the typical prog band member mold, and made the band even more interesting.
For some reason, I thought that after he left, DT would gradually start to wind down. I thought that albums would stop coming out every 2 years like clockwork, and I thought the band would begin showing their age.
I WAS TOTALLY WRONG.
I know that ADToE has its mixed reviews, but to me, the album was nothing short of incredible.
MP's last album, BCaSL, was good, but I put ADToE a solid 2-3 spots higher on my favorite DT albums list.
I honestly believe that deep inside, DT felt as if it had something to prove after the loss of MP. It was this motivation that led them to create an amazing album, and against so many expectations, continue making the most amazing music in the world without MP.
As for MM, I must admit that at first I wasn't too fond of him. I can't put a finger on why, but it was probably because MP was (and still is) my favorite musician, and I felt that nobody could come close to replacing him.
But now, I think MM is an awesome guy, and is only getting better and better as DT's drummer.
So overall, I never in a million years thought I would be saying this, but based upon DT's current track record so far with MM, I couldn't be happier with how things are shaping up.
*Raises glass to DT* :metal
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*informative well written post*
Please never stop posting at this site. Mmmmkay?! :)
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As much as I want DT to be playing lots of those old Portnoy songs (OMG ACOS), because lots of them are my favorites, I completely understand and respect why they might not play some of them. I know that MP only wrote the lyrics, and the music is "Dream Theater's," but would you be comfortable playing a huge epic that is all about your ex-band-member-of-25-years' mother dying when he was a kid?
No, because:
1. They've played it a bunch of times before
2. It is a huge fan favorite
3. The lyrics are poetic and nonliteral, so they can be a bit more universal than Mike's specific situation
4. The events happened a LONG time ago
5. I honestly doubt Mike would care in the slightest if they played it
In contrast, take a song like The Best Of Times. Yeah, it's just as personal, if not moreso. But:
1. It has never been played before
2. It doesn't have any real history with the fans at all, so it isn't quite the "fixture" in DT history that ACOS is
3. The lyrics are very literal and specific, which would make them hard to identify with outside of the very specific context of Mike losing his dad.
4. The events are fairly recent and fresh
5. If I had to guess, I think Mike would prefer that this not be played
I can honestly say that I don't think they would have any problem whatsoever playing ACOS.
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No, because:
1. They've played it a bunch of times before
2. It is a huge fan favorite
3. The lyrics are poetic and nonliteral, so they can be a bit more universal than Mike's specific situation
4. The events happened a LONG time ago
5. I honestly doubt Mike would care in the slightest if they played it
In contrast, take a song like The Best Of Times. Yeah, it's just as personal, if not moreso. But:
1. It has never been played before
2. It doesn't have any real history with the fans at all, so it isn't quite the "fixture" in DT history that ACOS is
3. The lyrics are very literal and specific, which would make them hard to identify with outside of the very specific context of Mike losing his dad.
4. The events are fairly recent and fresh
5. If I had to guess, I think Mike would prefer that this not be played
I can honestly say that I don't think they would have any problem whatsoever playing ACOS.
Bosk, every time you post somewhere, the red squares under your name make me feel like you're automatically angry about everything :lol even though I know you're not (I hope...??)
Those are all good points. I completely agree about TBOT. And I can't speak for the guys in DT, obviously, about their feelings on ACOS. You may be right, that they'd have no problem playing it. On the other hand though, while many fans and more casual listeners probably don't even know what the song is about, making it a non-issue for them, the band members do know what it's about, so that's why I think it's possible they wouldn't want to play it without Mike.
I'm only basing this on my own opinion. I feel that if I were in their position, I wouldn't want to play it out of respect/other emotions/things. But that's only me.
I would still love it if they played it, anyway :D
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I honestly don't think the band would mind playing the song. At least not on the count of MP or anything. But you know what I just realized? I don't really care that much if they play it live or not. I mean, yes, this song is a staple of DT history, and one of their most defining songs, but... I don't know. I'm kind of over it. I mean, it's over 20 minutes long. I'd rather hear them play two 10 minute songs like Learning To Live, Home, ITPOE1, or something else of the sort.
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I know this is now a SDV thread but , I think we already talked about this 3-4 weeks ago. Still , a worthwhile topic.
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Portnoy NO! Mangini YES! MP made his destiny.
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I have no idea why anyone would think that the band wouldn't or shouldn't play ACOS.
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I think some people here proclaiming that certain songs like ACOS are essentially MP songs have a bit drunk the Kool Aid of MP having been the heart and soul of DT. Sure, some later songs like the second half of the AAA suite or The Best of Times won't be played again, but frankly that's also because they range from mediocre to bad.
ACOS is a Dream Theater song that happens to have MP lyrics. If the fans want to hear it, they will play it.
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Well, to be fair, I'm not sure those songs are off-limits because they're not good. Dream Theater did write them, and recently, too, so I don't think any of the band's members will be saying things like "The Shattered Fortress? What? No, that song is horrible" in their pre-tour meetings.
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If they do ACOS, it must be with Portnoy.
I suppose Mangini would do it fine as well.
Honestly, this doesn't make any sense :smiley:
*bosk's boss post*
:tup
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*informative well written post*
Please never stop posting at this site. Mmmmkay?! :)
Thank you... This site rocks! :coolio
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I think some people here proclaiming that certain songs like ACOS are essentially MP songs have a bit drunk the Kool Aid of MP having been the heart and soul of DT. Sure, some later songs like the second half of the AAA suite or The Best of Times won't be played again, but frankly that's also because they range from mediocre to bad.
ACOS is a Dream Theater song that happens to have MP lyrics. If the fans want to hear it, they will play it.
I'm not drunk on anything. I fully support and love MM over MP these days, it probably just hasn't been clear that I DO really want the band to play MP songs, because I want to see them. It's a selfish wish :P However, I've just been trying to state that I would fully understand if the band decided not to play any of those songs for that particular reason, albeit still disappointed.
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I just stumbled upon this promotional video for BC&SL: https://www.amazon.de/Black-Clouds-Silver-Linings-Special/dp/B0026J8LHW (the video in the media thingy to the left of the album cover), where MP mentions JLB's "distracting and annoying vocals". I'm pretty sure he's just joking around, but if not, that's a pretty strong evidence of the tensions within the band at that time :-\
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I just stumbled upon this promotional video for BC&SL: https://www.amazon.de/Black-Clouds-Silver-Linings-Special/dp/B0026J8LHW (the video in the media thingy to the left of the album cover), where MP mentions JLB's "distracting and annoying vocals". I'm pretty sure he's just joking around, but if not, that's a pretty strong evidence of the tensions within the band at that time :-\
He's obviously being sarcastic there. Keep in mind the context that he's advertising the instrumental versions to promote the 3 disc edition, so he can't really say "listen to the instrumental versions, without JLB's beautiful vocals getting in the way"! :P
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With the recent interview (ripped out of context or not) i think it's pretty clear that MP is not as happy with his situation as he makes it seem to be. He's changing bands/projects/supergroups more frequently than his underwear doing mostly 4-5 minutes stuff in 4/4 (remember that SDOIT documentary where they made fun of that kind of music?). That's just not the same MP that we had in DT. I guess he's just doing whatever he can to keep his mind busy and not think about his "old love" too much.
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With the recent interview (ripped out of context or not) i think it's pretty clear that MP is not as happy with his situation as he makes it seem to be. He's changing bands/projects/supergroups more frequently than his underwear doing mostly 4-5 minutes stuff in 4/4 (remember that SDOIT documentary where they made fun of that kind of music?). That's just not the same MP that we had in DT. I guess he's just doing whatever he can to keep his mind busy and not think about his "old love" too much.
Guide on reading MP related news on Blabbermouth:
"Change everything to opposite. For example; "I'm not interested in DT anymore" = "I WANT BACK TO DT ASAP!"
but more seriously, I hope that MP continues with The Winery Dogs. It is pretty good band!
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I am actually pretty surprised that 1/4 of the poll respondents would like him back. I totally appreciate a lot of the aspects of his involvement/playing over the years but I just get the impression that with JP pretty much in creative control, DT is in a better place musically as far as my tastes run.
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I just stumbled upon this promotional video for BC&SL: https://www.amazon.de/Black-Clouds-Silver-Linings-Special/dp/B0026J8LHW (the video in the media thingy to the left of the album cover), where MP mentions JLB's "distracting and annoying vocals". I'm pretty sure he's just joking around, but if not, that's a pretty strong evidence of the tensions within the band at that time :-\
He's obviously being sarcastic there. Keep in mind the context that he's advertising the instrumental versions to promote the 3 disc edition, so he can't really say "listen to the instrumental versions, without JLB's beautiful vocals getting in the way"! :P
Plus he said " without those distracting and annoying vocals " - ergo - he's including himself in that.
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I am actually pretty surprised that 1/4 of the poll respondents would like him back. I totally appreciate a lot of the aspects of his involvement/playing over the years but I just get the impression that with JP pretty much in creative control, DT is in a better place musically as far as my tastes run.
But what if Petrucci starts his dictatorship in DT and decides to pursue his secret musical ambition: 70's disco!!!!!!!!!!!
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I think some people here proclaiming that certain songs like ACOS are essentially MP songs have a bit drunk the Kool Aid of MP having been the heart and soul of DT. Sure, some later songs like the second half of the AAA suite or The Best of Times won't be played again, but frankly that's also because they range from mediocre to bad.
ACOS is a Dream Theater song that happens to have MP lyrics. If the fans want to hear it, they will play it.
I'm not drunk on anything. I fully support and love MM over MP these days, it probably just hasn't been clear that I DO really want the band to play MP songs, because I want to see them. It's a selfish wish :P However, I've just been trying to state that I would fully understand if the band decided not to play any of those songs for that particular reason, albeit still disappointed.
Rumborak's post may not have been worded the best way, but his point stands, and your post actually reinforced it. The problem is that you are viewing ACOS as a "Mike Portnoy song." It isn't. It is a Dream Theater song. And even with Mike's lyrics, it has never been viewed as so intensely personal to Mike that the band wouldn't play it. Ever. There are a very small handful of songs that they might feel that way about, but I can say with a fairly high degree of certainty that ACOS would not make that list.
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^^this exactly. If they won't play ACOS, that might be for various reasons (eg already playing IT, so another epic might be too much), but most likely not because it's a "Portnoy song". You can't compare it to SDV for example, which was entirely written by KM. MP only wrote the lyrics for ACOS and contributed to the music writing, but he didn't write the song on his own.
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I am actually pretty surprised that 1/4 of the poll respondents would like him back. I totally appreciate a lot of the aspects of his involvement/playing over the years but I just get the impression that with JP pretty much in creative control, DT is in a better place musically as far as my tastes run.
But what if Petrucci starts his dictatorship in DT and decides to pursue his secret musical ambition: 70's disco!!!!!!!!!!!
:neverusethis:
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I am actually pretty surprised that 1/4 of the poll respondents would like him back. I totally appreciate a lot of the aspects of his involvement/playing over the years but I just get the impression that with JP pretty much in creative control, DT is in a better place musically as far as my tastes run.
But what if Petrucci starts his dictatorship in DT and decides to pursue his secret musical ambition: 70's disco!!!!!!!!!!!
:neverusethis:
Ummm...POW ?? ;D
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^^this exactly. If they won't play ACOS, that might be for various reasons (eg already playing IT, so another epic might be too much), but most likely not because it's a "Portnoy song". You can't compare it to SDV for example, which was entirely written by KM. MP only wrote the lyrics for ACOS and contributed to the music writing, but he didn't write the song on his own.
But I do have to add this, although somewhat off topic: Despite what I said, I highly doubt that we will see the song in the near future, as much as I'd love to. Again, not that the band would affirmatively decide to shelve it. I don't think they would. But even with the evening with format of this tour, I think it is unlikely they would include more than one 20-minute epic in a set. I could be wrong about that, and I hope I am. But I think we will get one, and it will be the new one. But, hey, if they throw the new one and either ACOS or Octavarium in the set, I'd be pretty happy about being wrong.
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I'd be pretty happy about being wrong.
I would also be happy if you were wrong.
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Just saw this story posted today on Blabbermouth:
Headline: DREAM THEATER Singer On MIKE PORTNOY Reunion: 'I Don't See It Ever Happening'
Link: https://www.blabbermouth.net/news/dream-theater-singer-on-mike-portnoy-reunion-i-dont-see-it-ever-happening/
DREAM THEATER singer James LaBrie has ruled out the possibility of a reunion with the band's former drummer, Mike Portnoy, saying that Portnoy's replacement, Mike Mangini, "will be our drummer until the day that we finish doing this."
On July 30, Portnoy was asked by Chile's Radio Futuro whether he would one day be willing to reunite with DREAM THEATER and rejoin the band as their drummer. "Sure," he replied. "I would do it in a heartbeat. They are the ones that have closed the door on it. I've only needed a break, and I've had that break. So I'm ready, willing and able. But I honestly don't think they ever will; they've closed their door on it and I think they're too headstrong in having to prove themselves without me. So I wouldn't count on it. But my door is always open."
In a brand new interview with the same rado station, LaBrie was asked to respond to Portnoy's comments. "That possibility, I don't see it ever happening; it's not gonna happen," the singer replied. "Because, first and foremost, Mike Mangini is a full-fledged member of the band now, he's a phenomenal drummer and he's doing everything that we could possibly want as a drummer in a band. He's helping us realize exactly what we wanna do right now musically. And he will be our drummer until the day that we finish doing this, when we conclude. Mike Portnoy was a big part of our past, but I think that's where it's going to remain. He was a drummer from the past. And as far as presently and into the future, it will be Mike Mangini, and we all feel very strongly about that. He's an incredible drummer, he's an incredible asset to the band, and he is fulfilling out wildest dreams as far as what we're doing musically and what we're doing with each album. So that's the way it stands."
Portnoy, who co-founded DREAM THEATER more than 27 years ago, abruptly quit the band in September 2010 while on tour with AVENGED SEVENFOLD. He has since been replaced by Mike Mangini (ANNIHILATOR, EXTREME, JAMES LABRIE, STEVE VAI).
Portnoy played on AVENGED SEVENFOLD's latest album, "Nightmare", following the death of that band's drummer, Jimmy "The Rev" Sullivan, and toured with them for the entire second half of 2010.
Portnoy announced his departure from ADRENALINE MOB in June due to "scheduling conflicts." A replacement drummer has not yet been announced.
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It seems LaBrie has taken the ship away from the shore.
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It seems LaBrie has taken the ship away from the shore.
:yarr
Classy answer by James.
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It seems LaBrie has taken the ship away from the shore.
:yarr
Classy answer by James.
Agreed. Although, in typical Blabbermouth form, the headline is very misleading and makes it sound like James is taking a jab at Mike.
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Any other reaction from JLB would be kind of disrespectful towards MM anyway. It's the only viable answer to give.
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To be honest - any music publication asking you if a previous member will ever re-join the band and replace your current one is a bit of a loaded question. It sounds disrespectful and designed purely to generate juicy headlines and gossip.
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For Portnoy to expect to return is a little unreasonable, though. I mean, again, going with the whole 'relationship' analogy, it's like, "Honey, I'm breaking up with you. But eventually, when I get my share of sleeping with other women, I'll come back and hopefully you'll dump whoever you are with and take me back."
It's kind of a ridiculous notion. Obviously, if something happened where MM was forced to leave the band... But those kinds of circumstances aren't something you just prepare for. People don't usually say, "Okay, I know we got this new kick ass drummer. But what if we start hating him, or he's going to hate it and want to quit." That kind of a mind set wouldn't be healthy either.
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Classy answer by James.
Yep! DT fans know that JLB is always classy in interviews, he rarely seems to speak before he thinks.
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Yep! DT fans know that JLB is always classy in interviews, he rarely seems to speak before he thinks.
Except when he decided to mention that forklift. Now that forklift will follow him for the rest of his career. :lol
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Obviously, if something happened where MM was forced to leave the band... But those kinds of circumstances aren't something you just prepare for.
Even if something were to happen to MM, I don't think this is a possibility at all. They've very clearly gone their separate ways, and that's not going to change. And for MP to say that his door is open at any given moment reads to me like he's trying to play the victim, and that got old a long time ago. It also strikes me as funny that he describes these past couple years as the break he was looking for. Obviously he was talking more about a break from DT in particular, but still he's been busy as ever since leaving the band.
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On July 30, Portnoy was asked by Chile's Radio Futuro whether he would one day be willing to reunite with DREAM THEATER and rejoin the band as their drummer. "Sure," he replied. "I would do it in a heartbeat. They are the ones that have closed the door on it. I've only needed a break, and I've had that break. So I'm ready, willing and able. But I honestly don't think they ever will; they've closed their door on it and I think they're too headstrong in having to prove themselves without me. So I wouldn't count on it. But my door is always open."
This is what absolutely ticks me off about Portnoy. I think he's an incredible musician and will continue to purchase music/projects he's involved in because it sounds good......but this guy is delusional.
Who's headstrong? DT? :lol Gimme a break. They're not the ones who tried a strong arm tactic of we're taking a break or I'm leaving.....thinking they'd crumble without his obsessed "leadership". It's strictly speculation but I'd bet near anything it bugs the crap out of him that not only did they not fall apart without him, they've improved in ways he wouldn't allow. Just unreal.
They've closed the door Mike because they found out what was in the next room was way more rewarding. And how shocking....he happened to work himself back into DTs motives, as if they are still out to get 'him'...cuz it's all about 'him'.... into that quote "prove themselves without me".
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In a brand new interview with the same rado station, LaBrie was asked to respond to Portnoy's comments. "That possibility, I don't see it ever happening; it's not gonna happen," the singer replied. "Because, first and foremost, Mike Mangini is a full-fledged member of the band now, he's a phnomenal drummer and he's doing everything that we could possibly want as a drummer in a band. He's helping us realize exactly what we wanna do right now musically. And he will be our drummer until the day that we finish doing this, when we conclude. Mike Portnoy was a big part of our past, but I think that's where it's going to remain. He was a drummer from the past. And as far as presently and into the future, it will be Mike Mangini, and we all feel very strongly about that. He's an incredible drummer, he's an incredible asset to the band, and he is fulfilling out wildest dreams as far as what we're doing musically and what we're doing with each album. So that's the way it stands."
Nobody noticed that? :biggrin:
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This is what absolutely ticks me off about Portnoy. I think he's an incredible musician and will continue to purchase music/projects he's involved in because it sounds good......but this guy is delusional.
Who's headstrong? DT? :lol Gimme a break. They're not the ones who tried a strong arm tactic of we're taking a break or I'm leaving.....thinking they'd crumble without his obsessed "leadership". It's strictly speculation but I'd bet near anything it bugs the crap out of him that not only did they not fall apart without him, they've improved in ways he wouldn't allow. Just unreal.
They've closed the door Mike because they found out what was in the next room was way more rewarding. And how shocking....he happened to work himself back into DTs motives, as if they are still out to get 'him'...cuz it's all about 'him'.... into that quote "prove themselves without me".
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On July 30, Portnoy was asked by Chile's Radio Futuro whether he would one day be willing to reunite with DREAM THEATER and rejoin the band as their drummer. "Sure," he replied. "I would do it in a heartbeat. They are the ones that have closed the door on it. I've only needed a break, and I've had that break. So I'm ready, willing and able. But I honestly don't think they ever will; they've closed their door on it and I think they're too headstrong in having to prove themselves without me. So I wouldn't count on it. But my door is always open."
This is what absolutely ticks me off about Portnoy. I think he's an incredible musician and will continue to purchase music/projects he's involved in because it sounds good......but this guy is delusional.
Who's headstrong? DT? :lol Gimme a break. They're not the ones who tried a strong arm tactic of we're taking a break or I'm leaving.....thinking they'd crumble without his obsessed "leadership". It's strictly speculation but I'd bet near anything it bugs the crap out of him that not only did they not fall apart without him, they've improved in ways he wouldn't allow. Just unreal.
They've closed the door Mike because they found out what was in the next room was way more rewarding. And how shocking....he happened to work himself back into DTs motives, as if they are still out to get 'him'...cuz it's all about 'him'.... into that quote "prove themselves without me".
This basically
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Personally, I would love it if MP was back with DT for many reasons. A few:
1. I feel that the rest of them tend to be lazy without him when it comes to their performances. I think he kept them on their toes with switches to the setlist, doing cover nights, etc.
2. He's the guy that wrote some of my favorite DT songs over the years. Obviously that alone would make me want him back in the band. Mangini is a phenomenal drummer, but I don't see him as someone that can make great creative contributions to a band. I guess I still view him as a hired gun or ace session guy because of his past affiliations.
3. He was the driving force behind so much of the cool special stuff the band did. Cover songs, full cover shows, commentaries on the dvds, and official bootlegs. I doubt they will ever release anymore YtseJam videos or cds without him.
4. A reunion with MP would open up the potential for a new LTE album somewhere down the road. As long as he's estranged from JP and JR we know that it will never happen.
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Obviously the band likes Mangini more. They seem EXTREMELY excited about him.
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This is what absolutely ticks me off about Portnoy. I think he's an incredible musician and will continue to purchase music/projects he's involved in because it sounds good......but this guy is delusional.
Who's headstrong? DT? :lol Gimme a break. They're not the ones who tried a strong arm tactic of we're taking a break or I'm leaving.....thinking they'd crumble without his obsessed "leadership". It's strictly speculation but I'd bet near anything it bugs the crap out of him that not only did they not fall apart without him, they've improved in ways he wouldn't allow. Just unreal.
They've closed the door Mike because they found out what was in the next room was way more rewarding. And how shocking....he happened to work himself back into DTs motives, as if they are still out to get 'him'...cuz it's all about 'him'.... into that quote "prove themselves without me".
Well said, Gary. :tup :tup
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4. A reunion with MP would open up the potential for a new LTE album somewhere down the road. As long as he's estranged from JP and JR we know that it will never happen.
I think it's completely the other way around. I mean, now that MM is a permanent member of DT, if JP or JR ever said, "You know, I kind of miss working with MP. Should give him a call." It's not like they'll invite him back into DT, but they could do another Liquid Tension project. If MP was back in DT, then the possibility of another Liquid Tension album would be pretty much none, because three of the four members of LTE would already be IN DT, so going into the studio with the three of them would be pretty pointless.
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Obviously the band likes Mangini more. They seem EXTREMELY excited about him.
They probably are, but at the same time stating or acting otherwise would be unprofessional and look VERY bad if it seemed like they regretted the choice.
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1. I feel that the rest of them tend to be lazy without him when it comes to their performances. I think he kept them on their toes with switches to the setlist, doing cover nights, etc.
I saw DT on the ADToE tour cycle and they were the opposite of lazy, they seemed very energetic and put on an inspiring show. I personally, am one of the fans that doesn't miss the cover stuff, I'd rather hear DT play DT tunes.
2. He's the guy that wrote some of my favorite DT songs over the years. Obviously that alone would make me want him back in the band. Mangini is a phenomenal drummer, but I don't see him as someone that can make great creative contributions to a band. I guess I still view him as a hired gun or ace session guy because of his past affiliations.
MP didn't write songs for DT to the best of my knowledge he basically helped with arrangements, unless you just mean lyrics, then obviously he did contribute with those.
3. He was the driving force behind so much of the cool special stuff the band did. Cover songs, full cover shows, commentaries on the dvds, and official bootlegs. I doubt they will ever release anymore YtseJam videos or cds without him.
If I remember right, the band expressed a desire to continue doing the official bootleg releases, they just wouldn't be able to access previously recorded material from before MP left that hasn't already been released, because MP has it.
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Personally, I would love it if MP was back with DT for many reasons.
And you are entitled to feel that way. But a few points in response to yours.
1. I feel that the rest of them tend to be lazy without him when it comes to their performances. I think he kept them on their toes with switches to the setlist, doing cover nights, etc.
I'm not seeing any signs of laziness whatsoever. They've stayed pretty much right on pace in terms of live and studio albums (notwithstanding Live At Luna Park being dayed, but that isn't their problem. They put in the work, and Eagle Rock has dropped the ball, but stuff like that happens from time to time). They have toured extensively. They have done a ton of fan outreach, solo projects, and other things. I don't see how anyone could think the rest of the band is lazy. They may not be driven by the same level of self-describued OCD to stay busy as Mike Portnoy is, but they have certainly been anything but lazy.
2. He's the guy that wrote some of my favorite DT songs over the years. Obviously that alone would make me want him back in the band. Mangini is a phenomenal drummer, but I don't see him as someone that can make great creative contributions to a band. I guess I still view him as a hired gun or ace session guy because of his past affiliations.
Um...actually, I don't believe Mike Portnoy has written any songs. He has contributed to the writing that has been primarily done by JP and Jordan (and others), but hasn't "written" any songs. And all indications are that Mike Mangini played just as much of a role in the writing of DT12, which we will all be hearing shortly.
3. He was the driving force behind so much of the cool special stuff the band did. Cover songs, full cover shows, commentaries on the dvds, and official bootlegs. I doubt they will ever release anymore YtseJam videos or cds without him.
Yes, he was. And those things should be appreciated. But the rest of the band has taken a keen interest in doing a lot of similar things, even if they aren't exactly the same things.
4. A reunion with MP would open up the potential for a new LTE album somewhere down the road. As long as he's estranged from JP and JR we know that it will never happen.
I guess that's a fair point. But personally, I've never really felt a burning desire for another LTE album. Jordan joining DT kind of made LTE irrelevant as a separate entity to me.
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In a brand new interview with the same rado station, LaBrie was asked to respond to Portnoy's comments. "That possibility, I don't see it ever happening; it's not gonna happen," the singer replied. "Because, first and foremost, Mike Mangini is a full-fledged member of the band now, he's a phnomenal drummer and he's doing everything that we could possibly want as a drummer in a band. He's helping us realize exactly what we wanna do right now musically. And he will be our drummer until the day that we finish doing this, when we conclude. Mike Portnoy was a big part of our past, but I think that's where it's going to remain. He was a drummer from the past. And as far as presently and into the future, it will be Mike Mangini, and we all feel very strongly about that. He's an incredible drummer, he's an incredible asset to the band, and he is fulfilling out wildest dreams as far as what we're doing musically and what we're doing with each album. So that's the way it stands."
Nobody noticed that? :biggrin:
:lol
I really want to read/hear the whole interview with JLB.
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Imagine if in the future - DT released an entirely instrumental album on the same day as a new Labrie solo album...
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Imagine if in the future - DT released an entirely instrumental album on the same day as a new Labrie solo album...
:lol
Wouldn't phase me much, I don't tend to buy JLB's solo stuff.
In response to some above stuff: the only aspects in which I personally see DT as having been lazy after MP left are the loss of rotating set lists and the use of click tracks live. But even then, both of those things aren't really about being lazy. Click tracks are so that they can use all kinds of layers and patches behind their music so it sounds closer to the studio versions, not threadbare. And the elimination of rotating setlists makes it easier for the band to know their shit REALLY WELL, from night to night, instead of constantly having nearly the entire back-catalog ready to go. For example, I'm pretty sure JP's guitar solo accuracy increased during the last tour because they were only playing specific songs.
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Click tracks? During every song?
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Mangini has a click in his ears during every song yes. It's so they can spin in backing vocals from the studio versions of songs.
Portnoy always used to speed up if i recall .
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I don't think there's anything wrong with having click tracks. But I actually don't like hearing pre-recorded backing vocals. I'd rather hear no backing vocals or samples at all, during a live show.
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bosk, Rena did come here and say that MP did in fact write Burning My Soul, the rest has essentially been JP.
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I don't think there's anything wrong with having click tracks. But I actually don't like hearing pre-recorded backing vocals. I'd rather hear no backing vocals or samples at all, during a live show.
For DT, yes, I completely agree. Or maybe JP should just do them.
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For DT, yes, I completely agree. Or maybe JP should just do them.
Definitely, but if he can't, like if he needs to focus on a more complex guitar part and can't do the backup vocals, I see nothing wrong with omitting them all together. The problem, too, is that a lot of the songs on ADTOE, the vocals were so layered, that it really doesn't even sound like melody and harmony, it just sounds like... A bit of a mess. Particularly on the choruses of BMUBMD and LNF.
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For DT, yes, I completely agree. Or maybe JP should just do them.
Definitely, but if he can't, like if he needs to focus on a more complex guitar part and can't do the backup vocals, I see nothing wrong with omitting them all together. The problem, too, is that a lot of the songs on ADTOE, the vocals were so layered, that it really doesn't even sound like melody and harmony, it just sounds like... A bit of a mess. Particularly on the choruses of BMUBMD and LNF.
Yeah, that's an issue I had with ADTOE as well. I didn't like the doubletracking (or whatever it's called) of almost every vocals. The only songs which didn't feature a lot of that were the ballads, and I think the vocals sounded way better on those.
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bosk, Rena did come here and say that MP did in fact write Burning My Soul, the rest has essentially been JP.
Even if true, that's still a far cry from "Mike Portnoy wrote all my favorite songs!"
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Click tracks? During every song?
I've never actually found a source confirming that this is true, but I and many other members have concluded they must definitely be using click tracks because of background things that must be in time with the music, yes.
Mangini has a click in his ears during every song yes. It's so they can spin in backing vocals from the studio versions of songs.
Portnoy always used to speed up if i recall .
I did not realize they do it primarily for the backing vocals...that's a little lame. And yes, Portnoy sped up ALL THE TIME lol.
The reason the click tracks disappoint me is because Mangini said in an interview in 2011/2012 that he has an exceptionally great sense of timing, so I was expecting that to translate super well on stage as he wouldn't ever be speeding up like MP did, even though still not using a click track (a la Peart, the human metronome). But then they ended up using click tracks. :/ Meh. It's not a huge issue for me as long as I don't think about it too much.
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Didn't MP speed up during Dance of Eternity on LSFNY? As if that song wasn't complicated enough, lol.
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Personally, I would love it if MP was back with DT for many reasons.
And you are entitled to feel that way. But a few points in response to yours.
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I'm not seeing any signs of laziness whatsoever. They've stayed pretty much right on pace in terms of live and studio albums (notwithstanding Live At Luna Park being dayed, but that isn't their problem. They put in the work, and Eagle Rock has dropped the ball, but stuff like that happens from time to time).
Um...actually, I don't believe Mike Portnoy has written any songs. He has contributed to the writing that has been primarily done by JP and Jordan (and others), but hasn't "written" any songs. And all indications are that Mike Mangini played just as much of a role in the writing of DT12, which we will all be hearing shortly.
Yes, he was. And those things should be appreciated. But the rest of the band has taken a keen interest in doing a lot of similar things, even if they aren't exactly the same things.
I guess that's a fair point. But personally, I've never really felt a burning desire for another LTE album. Jordan joining DT kind of made LTE irrelevant as a separate entity to me.
Laziness in performance isn't really the best term for what I mean, Bosk. Predictability comes closer.
Mentioning the new dvd leads to something else I miss about MP: He always tried to make each DT dvd release unique by including songs that hadn't been represented on live albums. The new Luna Park disc totally ignores the Black Clouds songs, leaving that entire album without a presence on any DT live disc.
By songwriting I meant lyrically. Like ACOS and the AA songs.
We couldn't be farther apart about LTE. LTE is instrumental magic. That magic is what led to Jordan wearing a wizard hat, you know.
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Didn't MP speed up during Dance of Eternity on LSFNY? As if that song wasn't complicated enough, lol.
Hehehe, I think he did, although not as badly as some other recordings, like the beginning of Blind Faith on CIM O.o JM is just chillin with his nice beautiful bass sounds, then OMFGPORTNOYLETSFASTERYAY hahaha. Or one of the live recordings of TGP (the song :neverusethis: ). I always notice in that live recording of TDOE, at a lot of the transition points you can hear JP JM and JR deliberately slow down their parts slightly to try and get back to something more comfortable!
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You know, I almost miss the tit-for-tat of the early MP departure days. Ah, the days where every day there might be a new interview with MP, another acrid jab at DT...
I wish somebody had chronicled all that shit. It was entertaining for sure and would make for an occasional good read.
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bosk, Rena did come here and say that MP did in fact write Burning My Soul, the rest has essentially been JP.
Even if true, that's still a far cry from "Mike Portnoy wrote all my favorite songs!"
I never said that at all, I said he's written "some of my favorite DT songs". Big difference between some and all. ;)
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I never said that at all, I said he's written "some of my favorite DT songs". Big difference between some and all. ;)
But to be fair, there's also a big difference between "written the songs" and "written the lyrics".
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Laziness in performance isn't really the best term for what I mean, Bosk. Predictability comes closer.
Mentioning the new dvd leads to something else I miss about MP: He always tried to make each DT dvd release unique by including songs that hadn't been represented on live albums. The new Luna Park disc totally ignores the Black Clouds songs, leaving that entire album without a presence on any DT live disc.
Excuse me! :D You are obviously entitled to your own sacred opinions, byt allow me to recall you that this forthcoming DVD will feature the first ever band only performance of Metropolis on a live DVD, an in-song improvisation during the aforementioned, a 12 minute keyboard+guitar improvisation, solos by every member but JM, 4 acoustic songs performed with brand new arrangements for a string quartet and the full performance of the ADTOE album. And that's without even mentioning the 360° technology, the 20 cameras (some of those flying), the HD Blu Ray quality and JLB's exceptional form.
We are not butterflies collectors, to feature a never-before played song isn't the only way to make a live release unique, and we are all going to know that come this November.
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this forthcoming DVD will feature the first ever band only performance of Metropolis on a live DVD
Can you elaborate on that? What do you mean?
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this forthcoming DVD will feature the first ever band only performance of Metropolis on a live DVD
Can you elaborate on that? What do you mean?
In no other DVD we could see the band performing Met alone on stage. I know it sounds mindblowing, but it's true! Think to that:
LIT --> Didn't make the cut
5YIALT --> Just a part of it
LSFNY --> Didn't make the cut for the DVD
LAB --> //
Score --> Orchestra Present
CIM --> //
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Huh... how about that.
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Laziness in performance isn't really the best term for what I mean, Bosk. Predictability comes closer.
Mentioning the new dvd leads to something else I miss about MP: He always tried to make each DT dvd release unique by including songs that hadn't been represented on live albums. The new Luna Park disc totally ignores the Black Clouds songs, leaving that entire album without a presence on any DT live disc.
Excuse me! :D You are obviously entitled to your own sacred opinions, byt allow me to recall you that this forthcoming DVD will feature the first ever band only performance of Metropolis on a live DVD, an in-song improvisation during the aforementioned, a 12 minute keyboard+guitar improvisation, solos by every member but JM, 4 acoustic songs performed with brand new arrangements for a string quartet and the full performance of the ADTOE album. And that's without even mentioning the 360° technology, the 20 cameras (some of those flying), the HD Blu Ray quality and JLB's exceptional form.
Surely this can't be the first Metropolis performance on a live dvd. Is it really? How could I have not realized this...I could swear that I've watched it on one of my videos before. This makes me question all my eyes have ever seen... :o
JM should have had a solo. He's been ignored too long. He could do his bass solo and then fly to the top of the stage for a song like Gene Simmons. :lol
The acoustic stuff is going to be special, I agree on that. The 360 stuff doesn't matter to me at all. And personally I'm afraid that with so many cameras it will be filled with constant angle switching. So many concert videos have that jumpy editing; some are so bad they should have to put those video game seizure warnings on them!
We are not butterflies collectors, to feature a never-before played song isn't the only way to make a live release unique, and we are all going to know that come this November.
I don't know. There may be some butterfly collectors among us.
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Laziness in performance isn't really the best term for what I mean, Bosk. Predictability comes closer.
I'm not really sure what you mean then, because I don't see how "predictability" fits either.
Mentioning the new dvd leads to something else I miss about MP: He always tried to make each DT dvd release unique by including songs that hadn't been represented on live albums. The new Luna Park disc totally ignores the Black Clouds songs, leaving that entire album without a presence on any DT live disc.
Okay, well you are saying at least two different things that don't have anything to do with one another. There is plenty that is uniqute about the forthcoming release, and there are songs that have never been featured before. Waistland pointed some of that out already, so I won't belabor the point. As to the Black Clouds songs, okay, yeah, those haven't made the cut yet. So you're upset because there are no BCSL songs on this one DVD release? It sounds like your issue is, "they didn't play the songs *I* wanted to hear," which has nothing to do with them not going the extra mile to make this release unique.
By songwriting I meant lyrically. Like ACOS and the AA songs.
Okay, so you miss Portnoy's lyrics. Fair enough.
We couldn't be farther apart about LTE. LTE is instrumental magic. That magic is what led to Jordan wearing a wizard hat, you know.
Don't get me wrong--I like LTE. But by the same token, I also don't need another LTE album.
And, no, LTE has nothing to do with the wizard hat.
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And personally I'm afraid that with so many cameras it will be filled with constant angle switching. So many concert videos have that jumpy editing; some are so bad they should have to put those video game seizure warnings on them!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zt6WSSlyu3s - this came to mind. I actually felt sick to my stomach after three minutes. Such a shame since PSMS is full of some of my favorite musicians.
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I did not realize they do it primarily for the backing vocals...that's a little lame. And yes, Portnoy sped up ALL THE TIME lol.
The reason the click tracks disappoint me is because Mangini said in an interview in 2011/2012 that he has an exceptionally great sense of timing, so I was expecting that to translate super well on stage as he wouldn't ever be speeding up like MP did, even though still not using a click track (a la Peart, the human metronome). But then they ended up using click tracks. :/ Meh. It's not a huge issue for me as long as I don't think about it too much.
Still shouldn't be an issue. If they want to pipe in background vocals or other effects, a click is necessary. No matter how accurate a timekeeper Mangini is, it's just not humanly possible to be that accurate over the course of, for example, a 10-minute song. Having the click doesn't take anything away from the song. It just helps make sure things match up when they patch in those other sounds.
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You are speaking with one. But while I hold shows like Pughkeepsie 1998 among the very best of Dream Theater, live and studio alike, I can't ask the band to put out something like that offiially. The purpose of official release is to promote an album and the band's live activities, and secondarily to appeal to the oldest or die-hardest fans with hidden gems little known to the 90% of the fandom.
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Okay, well you are saying at least two different things that don't have anything to do with one another. There is plenty that is uniqute about the forthcoming release, and there are songs that have never been featured before. Waistland pointed some of that out already, so I won't belabor the point. As to the Black Clouds songs, okay, yeah, those haven't made the cut yet. So you're upset because there are no BCSL songs on this one DVD release? It sounds like your issue is, "they didn't play the songs *I* wanted to hear," which has nothing to do with them not going the extra mile to make this release unique.
Seriously? :rollin :rollin :rollin
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I was wondering if you would catch that. :lol Good to know that my silliness isn't waisted. :neverusethis:
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I was wondering if you would catch that. :lol Good to know that my silliness isn't waisted. :neverusethis:
I may have waisted hollow ears, but I still have functioning eyes :lol
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I was wondering if you would catch that. :lol Good to know that my silliness isn't waisted. :neverusethis:
I may have waisted hollow ears, but I still have functioning eyes :lol
:rollin
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In no other DVD we could see the band performing Met alone on stage. I know it sounds mindblowing, but it's true! Think to that:
LIT --> Didn't make the cut
5YIALT --> Just a part of it
LSFNY --> Didn't make the cut for the DVD
LAB --> //
Score --> Orchestra Present
CIM --> //
That's legitimately shocking. I've never thought about it, you would just assume.. o_O
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I was wondering if you would catch that. :lol Good to know that my silliness isn't waisted. :neverusethis:
I may have waisted hollow ears, but I still have functioning eyes :lol
Hey. It's gonna snow...
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You are speaking with one. But while I hold shows like Pughkeepsie 1998 among the very best of Dream Theater, live and studio alike, I can't ask the band to put out something like that offiially. The purpose of official release is to promote an album and the band's live activities, and secondarily to appeal to the oldest or die-hardest fans with hidden gems little known to the 90% of the fandom.
Looked up Poughkeepsie 1998. That's a very unusual setlist, to say the least.
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Somebody post it, please.
*lazy*
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Laziness in performance isn't really the best term for what I mean, Bosk. Predictability comes closer.
I'm not really sure what you mean then, because I don't see how "predictability" fits either.
I mean they have lacked the spontaneity and the sense of the unexpected that they used to have. Like when they would change parts of the setlist for different cities, or throw in surprises such as the Rush song they played in Canada on the 09 boot that wasteland kindly uploaded recently. Or throwing in nods to other bands during their own songs, like Wish You Were Here and Wherever I May Roam riffs in Peruvian Skies.
Mentioning the new dvd leads to something else I miss about MP: He always tried to make each DT dvd release unique by including songs that hadn't been represented on live albums. The new Luna Park disc totally ignores the Black Clouds songs, leaving that entire album without a presence on any DT live disc.
So you're upset because there are no BCSL songs on this one DVD release? It sounds like your issue is, "they didn't play the songs *I* wanted to hear," which has nothing to do with them not going the extra mile to make this release unique.[/quote]
That's part of it. I am certainly disappointed about the lack of BCSL songs because I think there is some great stuff on that album. Trust me, I want it to turn out great and I'm definitely looking forward to it.
And, no, LTE has nothing to do with the wizard hat.
I know. I was just joking.
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You are speaking with one. But while I hold shows like Pughkeepsie 1998 among the very best of Dream Theater, live and studio alike, I can't ask the band to put out something like that offiially. The purpose of official release is to promote an album and the band's live activities, and secondarily to appeal to the oldest or die-hardest fans with hidden gems little known to the 90% of the fandom.
Looked up Poughkeepsie 1998. That's a very unusual setlist, to say the least.
Waay too many covers. I'd be pissed if I went to that show.
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This was the setlist:
Edit Setlist Info
Speak to Me
Lifting Shadows Off a Dream
(new intro)
Hey You
(Pink Floyd cover)
The Silent Man
Where Are You Now?
Different Strings
(Rush cover)
The Analog Kid
(Rush cover)
La Villa Strangiato
(Rush cover)
Wait for Sleep
Since I've Been Loving You
(Led Zeppelin cover)
Cover My Eyes
Take Away My Pain
Hell's Kitchen
Run Like Hell
(Pink Floyd cover)
The Way It Used to Be
Won't Get Fooled Again
(The Who cover)
Another Day
Hollow Years
Bad
(U2 cover)
Encore:
O Holy Night
(Adolphe Adam cover)
Paradigm Shift
(Liquid Tension Experiment cover)
Hot for Teacher
(Van Halen cover)
Ice Cream Man
(Van Halen cover)
Mean Streets
(Van Halen cover)
Cygnus X-1
(Rush cover)
Rock and Roll
(Led Zeppelin cover)
To Live Forever
(with "Lines In The Sand" intro)
Encore 2:
Perfect Strangers
(Deep Purple cover)
Peruvian Skies
That´s crazy - starting a set with Speak to Me? Was this an acoustic set?
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It was cool back then, but they couldn't get away with that now.
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Just checked Setlistfm once again, and it says "An Intimate Evening with Dream Theater". So yeah, acoustic set with some plugged songs. I never liked them doing Van Halen - completely different vibe than DT, and they always cut the songs short.
Does anyone know if this was Derek´s last show with the band?
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what a wicked setlist o.o
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Yes, it was the last time Derek played with DT as a full member of the ban.
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An amazing setlist... for all 100 hardcore DT fans in the audience. Everyone else would be left scratching their heads the entire time.
(If this was one of those DT fan club shows, my apologies.)
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An amazing setlist... for all 100 hardcore DT fans in the audience. Everyone else would be left scratching their heads the entire time.
(If this was one of those DT fan club shows, my apologies.)
Actually, wouldn't it be the other way around? I mean, wouldn't the hardcore DT fans be disappointed by all the covers, while all the people who are like, well rounded Rock'n'Roll fans, fans of Rush and Van Halen, etc. be like, "Nice! I like these songs better than Dream Theater! I don't even like Dream Theater, but I had a ticket so what the fuck."
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Looked up Poughkeepsie 1998. That's a very unusual setlist, to say the least.
Waay too many covers. I'd be pissed if I went to that show.
Your loss. The shows were billed as being something special and different from the typical shows that they had been playing all of 1997 and 1998, so those that attended knew they'd be getting different tracks instead of the norm. Additionally, the shows were very loose - almost as if you were hanging out with the band while they were in rehearsals and you were witnessing the fun they'd have between rehearsing songs for a tour.
And just to clarify, altho the setlist is correct, it is a bit misleading. A number of the covers listed were only excerpts, lasting between about half a minute and 2.5 minutes, a lot of which (specifically in the first encore) were done very off-the-cuff and spontaneously:
Speak to Me
Lifting Shadows Off a Dream (with revised intro)
Hey You (Pink Floyd cover)
The Silent Man
Where Are You Now?
Different Strings/
The Analog Kid (brief snippet)/
La Villa Strangiato (excerpt) (Rush covers)
Wait for Sleep
Since I've Been Loving You (Led Zeppelin cover)
Cover My Eyes
Take Away My Pain
Hell's Kitchen
Run Like Hell (Pink Floyd excerpt)/
The Way It Used to Be/
Won't Get Fooled Again (The Who excerpt)
Another Day
Hollow Years
Bad (U2 cover)
~~~encore~~~
O Holy Night (Adolphe Adam cover)
Paradigm Shift (Liquid Tension Experiment excerpt)/
Hot for Teacher (Van Halen excerpt)/
Ice Cream Man (Van Halen excerpt)
Mean Streets (Van Halen excerpt)
Cygnus X-1 (Rush excerpt)/
Rock and Roll (Led Zeppelin excerpt)
To Live Forever/
Lines In The Sand (excerpt)
~~~encore 2~~~
Perfect Strangers (Deep Purple cover - Nightmare Cinema style)
Peruvian Skies
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Here's what Labrie said a couple of days ago, so.......
"It's not gonna happen," said LaBrie (via Blabbermouth). "Because, first and foremost, Mike Mangini is a full-fledged member of the band now ... Mike Portnoy was a big part of our past, but I think that's where it's going to remain. He was a drummer from the past. And as far as presently and into the future, it will be Mike Mangini, and we all feel very strongly about that. He's an incredible drummer, he's an incredible asset to the band, and he is fulfilling out wildest dreams as far as what we're doing musically and what we're doing with each album. So that's the way it stands."
Personally, I think I can deal with that. Portnoy didn't burn the bridge, he nuked it. Things always happen for a reason.
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https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=38340.msg1646964#msg1646964
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https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=38340.msg1646964#msg1646964
Guess I missed that one... sorry.
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Wow, 158 wrong answers! That's a lot! ;)
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https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=38340.msg1646964#msg1646964
Guess I missed that one... sorry.
JP forgives all.
(https://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o10/liquid_skies/johnpetrucci356.jpg)
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Unless something totally disastrous and unforeseen were to happen with MM, there is no way MP rejoins DT. At this point it's even hard to see him sitting in for a song during a DT show. I think JLB's comment a couple days ago show just how committed the band is to MM. He laid it down in absolute and uncertain terms, and they said it from the beginning; everything they've said and done since then has only strengthened it: MM is THE drummer in DT, and will be until they stop.
I love the music MP made with DT, but it would be very hard for me to go back from MM to MP for many reasons. I suspect the majority of fans feel similarly.
Leaving DT was the single worst move/bad decision of MP's career. I believe either that he behaved irrationally in the moment, or that he did not believe the band would go on without him. It is obvious from his statements since this whole thing happened that he did not really want to be out of DT; he only wanted a break. But in some strange way, I think it worked to the best for both parties, and I would not like to see him in DT again. I don't miss him because I've been very much into a couple of his projects since then. I'm getting an adequate dose of MP even without DT, and now I'm getting in my favorite band in the world a phenomenal new drummer whom I've known about for years. This is a win-win musically for me, though MP and some of his fans might feel conflicted about the result and the way it happened.
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In respect to what James LaBrie said about the reunion with Mike Portnoy, as the fan that I am I feel amazingly rejuvenated knowing that he said what he said about a return from Mike Portnoy. Having him exude confidence in Mike Mangini's abilities and saying he's an asset to the band strengthens my personal feelings about Dream Theater post-MP. I enjoy everything Mike Portnoy is doing musically and I feel no betrayal towards him on the subject (as a fan, anyway), so I'm good with everything being the way it is now.
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I'd bet a thousand bucks if something happened to Mangini, they'd audition new drummers before bringing back Portnoy. I can't even remotely imagine them bringing him back. He's as popular as poison ivy in a nudist colony.
Still great in Winery Dogs though :tup
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I'd bet a thousand bucks if something happened to Mangini, they'd audition new drummers before bringing back Portnoy. I can't even remotely imagine them bringing him back. He's as popular as poison ivy in a nudist colony.
Still great in Winery Dogs though :tup
What a statement! :o
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He may be correct. I wouldn't be surprised. Although I don't think anything will happen to MM for the foreseeable future.
By the way, if the new album is as beastly on drums as we've been led to believe, that will be the nail in the coffin with regard to this issue.
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A nail in the coffin for who?! The fans? DT does not make decisions based on fans recommendations.
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A nail in the coffin for who?! The fans? DT does not make decisions based on fans recommendations.
Not sure about that. Why else would they return to the "Evening With" format for concerts?
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Not sure about that. Why else would they return to the "Evening With" format for concerts?
You may be right, but on the other hand, why wouldn't they? I mean, I don't see DT as being the kinds of guys to say, "Well, it's hard and the sets are longer, that's why we don't do it anymore." It's not like MP used to have to force them to do it, I think they like having those big kinds of shows.
Like I said, I'm not suggesting that fans' recommendations didn't help, but it's entirely possible that this was something they wanted to do.
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Talking about if MM's playing on this album will squash at the talk about MP returning. DT have moved way past MP. Fans are the one's carrying this torch.
I'm not talking about an evening with. I love an evening with. I wish all bands with long careers would do this.
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They keep talking about MM's presence on this album though. They're obviously making it clear to those fans that they've moved on.
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A nail in the coffin for who?! The fans? DT does not make decisions based on fans recommendations.
Good. Now convince the guys over on the petition thread and you'll make a believer out of me.
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They keep talking about MM's presence on this album though. They're obviously making it clear to those fans that they've moved on.
Yeah, but even with ADTOE, JLB was pretty much saying the same thing. He made it clear that Mike Portnoy will not be rejoining Dream Theater. He said this in an interview like, over a year ago. Obviously some people just don't want to accept that.
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They keep talking about MM's presence on this album though. They're obviously making it clear to those fans that they've moved on.
Exactly. That's why I'm so dumbfounded with some of the remarks in this thread. It's wishful thinking.
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They keep talking about MM's presence on this album though. They're obviously making it clear to those fans that they've moved on.
Exactly. That's why I'm so dumbfounded with some of the remarks in this thread. It's wishful thinking.
I know, right? It's like people saying that Tom Brady is washed up and can't play QB anymore.
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They keep talking about MM's presence on this album though. They're obviously making it clear to those fans that they've moved on.
Exactly. That's why I'm so dumbfounded with some of the remarks in this thread. It's wishful thinking.
I know, right? It's like people saying that Tom Brady is washed up and can't play QB anymore.
AMIRITE?! :lol
You trouble maker you. :lol
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By the way, the only other possibly scenario I could see bringing MP back, which hasn't been mentioned I don't think is if sales started to tank drastically over the course of a couple albums. And I don't know if I see that happening at all.
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By the way, the only other possibly scenario I could see bringing MP back, which hasn't been mentioned I don't think is if sales started to tank drastically over the course of a couple albums. And I don't know if I see that happening at all.
I would go as far as to say they would disband before they brought Portnoy back in. If you can't read between the lines with what they were saying over the last few years............
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By the way, the only other possibly scenario I could see bringing MP back, which hasn't been mentioned I don't think is if sales started to tank drastically over the course of a couple albums. And I don't know if I see that happening at all.
I would go as far as to say they would disband before they brought Portnoy back in. If you can't read between the lines with what they were saying over the last few years............
I think that's a bit of an extreme assumption lol. It's not like they hate the guy or anything. Luckily I don't think of this happening as DT is only getting bigger and has a tremendously loyal fan base.
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I'd love to see MP back to OSI... Gavin Harrison is a great drummer, but I prefer, for OSI, Mr. Portnoy. :tup
For DT? MM all the way! :metal
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I think that's a bit of an extreme assumption lol. It's not like they hate the guy or anything.
Plus half the reason that they didn't want to 'take a break' like Portnoy did is because they rely on DT as their main source of income, and don't have a thousand side projects to subsidize their living. I think they'd much rather keep the DT train alive with Portnoy, than take their chances forming new bands, supergroups or joining existing ones.
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I'd bet a thousand bucks if something happened to Mangini, they'd audition new drummers before bringing back Portnoy. I can't even remotely imagine them bringing him back.
I agree. If MP were to come back, it would be all about him again and talking about how DT is his baby, etc and acting as if the other members don't care as much about the band when it is more like they don't care enough about always having to be right or win the argument. In a way, it would be taken as, "You guys were right, we couldn't do it without Portnoy" even though that is completely unfair...but that is how it would be taken.
With JLB's comments about MP, I think it shows how concerned they are for MM's unenviable task of filling MP's shoes. Even inviting MP back for a one off show would spark the rumors about whether he would come back or whether the band was better with MP in it and that is just disrespectful to MM after all of the amazing work he has done and how humble he has been through the whole ordeal.
MM is here to stay.
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I'd bet a thousand bucks if something happened to Mangini, they'd audition new drummers before bringing back Portnoy. I can't even remotely imagine them bringing him back.
I agree. If MP were to come back, it would be all about him again and talking about how DT is his baby, etc and acting as if the other members don't care as much about the band when it is more like they don't care enough about always having to be right or win the argument. In a way, it would be taken as, "You guys were right, we couldn't do it without Portnoy" even though that is completely unfair...but that is how it would be taken.
With JLB's comments about MP, I think it shows how concerned they are for MM's unenviable task of filling MP's shoes. Even inviting MP back for a one off show would spark the rumors about whether he would come back or whether the band was better with MP in it and that is just disrespectful to MM after all of the amazing work he has done and how humble he has been through the whole ordeal.
MM is here to stay.
To get the old wife analogy going, bringing back Portnoy for a reunion would be like inviting your ex-wife to your present wife's birthday party. It would be nothing but a shit storm of controversy, and couldn't do anything but hurt things. You keep the ex as far away as possible.
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They keep talking about MM's presence on this album though. They're obviously making it clear to those fans that they've moved on.
Exactly. That's why I'm so dumbfounded with some of the remarks in this thread. It's wishful thinking.
I know, right? It's like people saying that Tom Brady is washed up and can't play QB anymore.
He is! BB should immediately bench him and play Tebow. Let Brady save his tender knee for the playoffs once Tim leads them there. ;)
Man I'm glad football is almost here...
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I'd love to see MP back to OSI... Gavin Harrison is a great drummer, but I prefer, for OSI, Mr. Portnoy. :tup
For DT? MM all the way! :metal
Judging by some of his comments, I think it would be even less likely to see MP in OSI again. He did a pretty good job shutting that door.
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What I would like to see is the same treatment Derek Sherinian got. He played in 2004 with DT. *snip*
I certainly don't ever see him back in DT, but 1 or 2 guest appearances would be cool.
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I thought about that too, but the difference is that neither Charlie Dominici nor Derek were ever 'corner stones' of DT. They weren't the ones who started the band, and neither one of them could say, "DT is my baby." With MP, it would be a completely different dynamic.
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I'd bet a thousand bucks if something happened to Mangini, they'd audition new drummers before bringing back Portnoy. I can't even remotely imagine them bringing him back.
I agree. If MP were to come back, it would be all about him again and talking about how DT is his baby, etc and acting as if the other members don't care as much about the band when it is more like they don't care enough about always having to be right or win the argument. In a way, it would be taken as, "You guys were right, we couldn't do it without Portnoy" even though that is completely unfair...but that is how it would be taken.
With JLB's comments about MP, I think it shows how concerned they are for MM's unenviable task of filling MP's shoes. Even inviting MP back for a one off show would spark the rumors about whether he would come back or whether the band was better with MP in it and that is just disrespectful to MM after all of the amazing work he has done and how humble he has been through the whole ordeal.
MM is here to stay.
To get the old wife analogy going, bringing back Portnoy for a reunion would be like inviting your ex-wife to your present wife's birthday party. It would be nothing but a shit storm of controversy, and couldn't do anything but hurt things. You keep the ex as far away as possible.
NO MORE MARRIAGE ANALOGY. IT IS NOT ANALOGOUS. AT ALL. :marriageanalogy:
They invited Charlie Dominici and Derek Sherinian back for a one off show, and I didn't see anyone speculating they were about to fire JLB and JR. Or talking about polygamy or harems.
And the first paragraph is nothing but speculation either.
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I'd love to see MP back to OSI... Gavin Harrison is a great drummer, but I prefer, for OSI, Mr. Portnoy. :tup
Judging by some of his comments, I think it would be even less likely to see MP in OSI again. He did a pretty good job shutting that door.
Yes, I know... it would be close to impossible... :justjen
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What I would like to see is the same treatment Derek Sherinian got. He played in 2004 with DT. *snip*
Yes, he did. And the forum rules are VERY clear about not posting links to pirated officially-released Dream Theater material. Consider this your warning.
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I'd love to see MP back to OSI... Gavin Harrison is a great drummer, but I prefer, for OSI, Mr. Portnoy. :tup
For DT? MM all the way! :metal
Mike has stated in interviews that he really had no fun making the OSI records, so don't hold out on him revisiting that.
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maybe this has been mentioned already, but i personally dont see why MP would want to go back. i know how much the band meant to him and im not downplaying anything he did, but if it's true that only 2 of the 4 members have kept in contact with him, why go back to that? if it's the answer he uses a lot, "for the fans," then i don't think that's enough to warrant it. he left not only because he was burn out and needed a break (which in that one interview he says he's had), but also due to the strained relationships in the band. to me, those don't seem to have improved when it comes to him.
so, why would MP want to go back?
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maybe this has been mentioned already, but i personally dont see why MP would want to go back. i know how much the band meant to him and im not downplaying anything he did, but if it's true that only 2 of the 4 members have kept in contact with him, why go back to that? if it's the answer he uses a lot, "for the fans," then i don't think that's enough to warrant it. he left not only because he was burn out and needed a break (which in that one interview he says he's had), but also due to the strained relationships in the band. to me, those don't seem to have improved when it comes to him.
so, why would MP want to go back?
Who are they o.o
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maybe this has been mentioned already, but i personally dont see why MP would want to go back. i know how much the band meant to him and im not downplaying anything he did, but if it's true that only 2 of the 4 members have kept in contact with him, why go back to that? if it's the answer he uses a lot, "for the fans," then i don't think that's enough to warrant it. he left not only because he was burn out and needed a break (which in that one interview he says he's had), but also due to the strained relationships in the band. to me, those don't seem to have improved when it comes to him.
so, why would MP want to go back?
Who are they o.o
Jordan and JP I think
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i.e. The two that MP didn't take swipes at.
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i.e. The two that MP didn't take swipes at.
What o_O Did JM say something about MP?
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maybe this has been mentioned already, but i personally dont see why MP would want to go back. i know how much the band meant to him and im not downplaying anything he did, but if it's true that only 2 of the 4 members have kept in contact with him, why go back to that? if it's the answer he uses a lot, "for the fans," then i don't think that's enough to warrant it. he left not only because he was burn out and needed a break (which in that one interview he says he's had), but also due to the strained relationships in the band. to me, those don't seem to have improved when it comes to him.
so, why would MP want to go back?
Who are they o.o
Jordan and JP I think
“@JoseCar_10: @MikePortnoy do u keep in touch with DT members?” JORDAN AND JP HAVE STAYED IN TOUCH about 23 hours ago
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maybe this has been mentioned already, but i personally dont see why MP would want to go back. i know how much the band meant to him and im not downplaying anything he did, but if it's true that only 2 of the 4 members have kept in contact with him, why go back to that? if it's the answer he uses a lot, "for the fans," then i don't think that's enough to warrant it. he left not only because he was burn out and needed a break (which in that one interview he says he's had), but also due to the strained relationships in the band. to me, those don't seem to have improved when it comes to him.
so, why would MP want to go back?
Because no relationship is perfect, and I am sure he feels like a good working relationship could be worked out again with Myung and JLB. Whether they feel that way or not is unknown, but I am sure Portnoy feels they could all find a way to make it work, otherwise he wouldn't be so open to going back (at least publicly).
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i.e. The two that MP didn't take swipes at.
What o_O Did JM say something about MP?
MP said that towards the end - Myung was becoming more withdrawn. Funnily enough - that changed instantly once MP left the band. And we all know how he felt about LaBrie.
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By the way, the only other possibly scenario I could see bringing MP back, which hasn't been mentioned I don't think is if sales started to tank drastically over the course of a couple albums. And I don't know if I see that happening at all.
I dont see that happeneing either tbh...
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“@JoseCar_10: @MikePortnoy do u keep in touch with DT members?” JORDAN AND JP HAVE STAYED IN TOUCH about 23 hours ago
Huh, didn't know that. Maybe an LTE one off down the road? One can dream.
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“@JoseCar_10: @MikePortnoy do u keep in touch with DT members?” JORDAN AND JP HAVE STAYED IN TOUCH about 23 hours ago
Huh, didn't know that. Maybe an LTE one off down the road? One can dream.
Hopefully it will happen. The two LTE albums are some of my favorite instrumental discs.
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“@JoseCar_10: @MikePortnoy do u keep in touch with DT members?” JORDAN AND JP HAVE STAYED IN TOUCH about 23 hours ago
Huh, didn't know that. Maybe an LTE one off down the road? One can dream.
Well, it's a hell of a lot more likely than him coming back to DT.
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Funnily enough - that changed instantly once MP left the band. And we all know how he felt about LaBrie.
Thank God! :hefdaddy
But what about LaBrie? Didn't they get well? It seems to me that James is very happy without Portnoy, that he would be the last one to want him back. But how it's the other way around?
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Funnily enough - that changed instantly once MP left the band. And we all know how he felt about LaBrie.
Thank God! :hefdaddy
But what about LaBrie? Didn't they get well? It seems to me that James is very happy without Portnoy, that he would be the last one to want him back. But how it's the other way around?
IIRC MP had stated in some interviews that he felt JLB's voice didn't fit the band anymore and that they would be better off with another vocalist.
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Hence the RORORO section in ANTR and the increased amount of MP lead vocal parts in general.
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:censored
>:(
Well, for me, DT without JLB would never be the same thing. He is amazing.
Second, MP singing... well, I can't stand it. I think he is one of the worst singers (or backing vocals) I have ever listened.
Anyway, those things are in the past! :biggrin:
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And we all know how he felt about LaBrie.
No, actually, we really don't. He made a comment once about how he thought the vocals in the band should be different nowadays to sound more modern, but that's really it. The only thing we do know is how fans like to take isolated comments out of context and blow them up into something they probably aren't. Good thing that never happens here. ;)
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No.
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No, actually, we really don't. He made a comment once about how he thought the vocals in the band should be different nowadays to sound more modern, but that's really it. The only thing we do know is how fans like to take isolated comments out of context and blow them up into something they probably aren't. Good thing that never happens here. ;)
Hm, ok. :hat
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If the voting was still open I'd vote no, but to really show how I feel about it I'd remove the "!". I don't dislike the idea that strongly, but I prefer DT the way it is.
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And we all know how he felt about LaBrie.
No, actually, we really don't. He made a comment once about how he thought the vocals in the band should be different nowadays to sound more modern, but that's really it. The only thing we do know is how fans like to take isolated comments out of context and blow them up into something they probably aren't. Good thing that never happens here. ;)
Good job he never retweeted anti-Labrie tweets or "liked" anti-labrie facebook comments or we'd never know for sure.
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While an internet forum like this will have its tendencies to go overboard occasionally on these matters,i also don't see the point of downplaying MP's outright statements of what he likes and what he doesn't. He put on public record (with Rich's book) that he was about to fire James, and he said publicly that he would not hire James these days.
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which goes back to my point, that had nothing to do with relationships being perfect. if MP wanted to fire him back then and wouldn't hire him a while back, why work with him again?
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Which goes right back to my point which is it aint gonna happen.
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While an internet forum like this will have its tendencies to go overboard occasionally on these matters,i also don't see the point of downplaying MP's outright statements of what he likes and what he doesn't. He put on public record (with Rich's book) that he was about to fire James, and he said publicly that he would not hire James these days.
...and then the most half hearted compliments about how he improved. JP really praised the shit out of JLB and MP was basically like "oh yeah, things got better...and like it or not, he is the voice people recognized (paraphrased)". Not to mention all of the times they nearly came to blows. It wasn't like it was constantly, but there was a good handful of time including one where they actually got a few shoves at each other before the show or encore or something (its in the book). It seems like it had died down in the years before MP left but I can speculate, and this is the only thing in the last few posts that have been speculative because this is all pretty well documented, that the wounds were still a little fresh.
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And we all know how he felt about LaBrie.
No, actually, we really don't. He made a comment once about how he thought the vocals in the band should be different nowadays to sound more modern, but that's really it. The only thing we do know is how fans like to take isolated comments out of context and blow them up into something they probably aren't. Good thing that never happens here. ;)
Good job he never retweeted anti-Labrie tweets or "liked" anti-labrie facebook comments or we'd never know for sure.
So true. :lol
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It probably seems really shallow to say this, but I miss Portnoy's personality than anything else.
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Seriously ?
I don't miss his screaming into the camera and band members faces for his own enjoyment or playing drums standing up on stage and hogging the spotlight.
We got a lot more info when he was around - sure but that's the only thing I miss.
EDIT : I also missed his big fat drum sound on A Dramatic Turn Of Events - but it seems Mangini has picked up that torch.
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Seriously ?
I don't miss his screaming into the camera and band members faces for his own enjoyment or playing drums standing up on stage and hogging the spotlight.
We got a lot more info when he was around - sure but that's the only thing I miss.
EDIT : I also missed his big fat drum sound on A Dramatic Turn Of Events - but it seems Mangini has picked up that torch.
I'm not someone that concentrates on the drumming that much so I couldn't tell if I missed his drum sound because I loved it or because I was just used to it having listened to Dream Theater for the previous 11 years (when ADTOE came out) but I agree with you....and I'm glad that has now been remedied with the new one.
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It probably seems really shallow to say this, but I miss Portnoy's personality than anything else.
Something tells me the rest of the band members don't share that sentiment.
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And we all know how he felt about LaBrie.
No, actually, we really don't. He made a comment once about how he thought the vocals in the band should be different nowadays to sound more modern, but that's really it. The only thing we do know is how fans like to take isolated comments out of context and blow them up into something they probably aren't. Good thing that never happens here. ;)
what do you know
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Hey, maybe The Enemy Inside is about Portnoy's assholiness.
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Hey, maybe The Enemy Inside is about Portnoy's assholiness.
FTFY... Right?
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JP: I miss MP spitting on all my cabinets during shows. I miss the plastic covers.
JLB: I miss MP belittling me and I miss all the confrontations.
JM: I miss playing the bass as I used to and as I do now before MP left and after MM joined.
JR: I'll see you... ...On the road.
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JP: I miss MP spitting on all my cabinets during shows. I miss the plastic covers.
JLB: I miss MP belittling me and I miss all the confrontations.
JM: I miss playing the bass as I used to and as I do now before MP left and after MM joined.
JR: I'll see you... ...On the road.
I have it on good authority - this is exactly how it went down.
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Honestly, I don't think there's a lot of "missing" going on on DT's side. They went on with full steam with the next album and touring, they will have had their hands full to not reminisce about the old days. I think only MP and the various internet forums dwelled on this.
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Honestly, I don't think there's a lot of "missing" going on on DT's side. They went on with full steam with the next album and touring, they will have had their hands full to not reminisce about the old days. I think only MP and the various internet forums dwelled on this.
100% correct. No band kicks a guy out and then reminisces about him. They go full force forward thinking about the next album their next tour, their next move.
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JP: I miss MP spitting on all my cabinets during shows. I miss the plastic covers.
JLB: I miss MP belittling me and I miss all the confrontations.
JM: I miss playing the bass as I used to and as I do now before MP left and after MM joined.
JR: I'll see you... ...On the road.
That Was The Life
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I would have voted No but it is closed now :-)
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If I could recommend one book to MP it would be Robrt Greene´s "The 48 Laws Of Power". Particularly Law #4: Always say less than is necessary. I love Mike and what he did to DT, and have been following all his projects before and since he left - saw them with Fates Warning, AMob and the Winery Dogs when they came to Brazil, and missed him with Stone Sour. But he lost a lot of credit when DT focused on the future and on talking about their new album, while he insisted on talking about why he left, how the other guys decided to carry on without him, etc etc. Every couple of months he does ok and focuses on his current bands, but as soon as DT is brought up in an interview, either he messes up or the magazine/website misconstrues what he says, and there we have him catching attention for the wrong reasons...so If I were Mike I would simply NOT respond questions about DT for a while until things cool off and he gets a proper break with one of his projects.
All that said, I have the following 02 comments:
1 - While the band insists on the contrary, of course "ADTOE" - the album title only - refers to the change they had when MP left. That´s about the ONLY time they reminisced the change;
2 - If David Lee Roth returned to Van Halen, I can´t see how at som point in the future these guys will not be able to bury the hatchet and at least collaborate with each other one way or another. Maybe a LTE record, or MP playing with Petrucci in G3. Going back to DT is a different story. As much as I miss MP´s energy and drive with the band, commercially-wise they´re doing ok, and these comebacks are more often than not a business decision.
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Hey, maybe The Enemy Inside is about Portnoy's assholiness.
No bashing of members or former members.
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JP: I miss MP spitting on all my cabinets during shows. I miss the plastic covers.
JLB: I miss MP belittling me and I miss all the confrontations.
JM: I miss playing the bass as I used to and as I do now before MP left and after MM joined.
JR: I'll see you... ...On the road.
JR misses:
(https://img63.imageshack.us/img63/8598/ragql0.jpg)
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JM missed his voice. It's been 25 years since he spoke.
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(https://img63.imageshack.us/img63/8598/ragql0.jpg)
:lol
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In spite of everything that has been said and happened about this I do have a lot of sympathy for Portnoy. I can hear you say that he was the one who instigated the final demise. However, sometimes we all do things we come to regret. He was one of the three that started the band and he made a massivie contribution to what transpired. However, I think in the end, it seems to me, he had too much power. I think James said something like 'the band is better balanced now'. That to me seems a code for all the members can breathe and contribute freely.
As somebody wrote earlier Portnoy has gone now. I do feel the chances of him coming back, to use an American slang, is zip for the reason DT is more democratic.
My own view is also things have moved on for the other Mike to carry on.
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I wonder whether there's been any contact between them by now.
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I wonder whether there's been any contact between them by now.
In Portnoy's own words " Three of them have emailed me. Two of them have not."
No prizes for guessing who the two are.
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So, what's stopping MP from emailing/contacting the other two? I wish he'd stop trying to play like he's the victim or the one who was wronged. It's really immature.
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Yeah it does get a bit old after a while.
i can imagine " 2 of them haven't emailed me " means " They haven't replied because I never emailed them in the 1st place " . . .
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I wonder whether there's been any contact between them by now.
In Portnoy's own words " Three of them have emailed me. Two of them have not."
No prizes for guessing who the two are.
Umm... Well, if JLB and JM are the ones who have NOT emailed him.... Then who the hell are the three? I mean, there's JP and JR, but... Who's the third? MM? lol.
"Hey, Mike. Guess what? I'm the new drummer in DT! Isn't that great? Hope all is well.
-MM"
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I'm sure MM and MP have spoken. See MM's words about MP in The Spirit Carries On Part 1, for example, he wasn't about to cut off contact with MP over this.
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I'm sure MM and MP have spoken. See MM's words about MP in The Spirit Carries On Part 1, for example, he wasn't about to cut off contact with MP over this.
Yeah, but it's just weird that he said, "Three of them emailed me", because it sounds like he means "three of the guys who I separated from." So unless he means the band manager, it's worded a little weird.
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In spite of everything that has been said and happened about this I do have a lot of sympathy for Portnoy. I can hear you say that he was the one who instigated the final demise. However, sometimes we all do things we come to regret. He was one of the three that started the band and he made a massivie contribution to what transpired. However, I think in the end, it seems to me, he had too much power. I think James said something like 'the band is better balanced now'. That to me seems a code for all the members can breathe and contribute freely.
As somebody wrote earlier Portnoy has gone now. I do feel the chances of him coming back, to use an American slang, is zip for the reason DT is more democratic.
My own view is also things have moved on for the other Mike to carry on.
:clap: :hefdaddy
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So, what's stopping MP from emailing/contacting the other two? I wish he'd stop trying to play like he's the victim or the one who was wronged. It's really immature.
Why do you assume he hasn't? Making assumptions like that and attacking him for them are just as immature.
At the time, soon after he left, he said in interviews that he had been trying to get in contact with the guys but none of them were getting back to him, just the band's legal team. So from what we know, he probably has tried to get in touch with all of them but only some have now responded.
i can imagine " 2 of them haven't emailed me " means " They haven't replied because I never emailed them in the 1st place " . . .
Sure, you can imagine it, but that doesn't make it true. :P
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I remember some tweet where MP said he emailed all the DT guys to congratulate them for the Grammy nomination and 3 of them replied. Is that what you guys are talking about?
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I remember some tweet where MP said he emailed all the DT guys to congratulate them for the Grammy nomination and 3 of them replied. Is that what you guys are talking about?
I don´t think people have referred to this specific occasion.
As someone said here, I also hav great respect for Portnoy. I voted YES - I´d like to see him back in the band, but ceertainly not to how things were during the SysChaos/BCSL era, where he controlled 99% of what the band did. Only speculation on my side, but if he had a different approach when he talked with the band about leaving and said "look guys, I´m doing too much - maybe one of you could chip in and organize this or that side of the band, get more involved in the writing of the next album etc etc", things would have worked out.
I remember Eddie Vedder talking about a similar situation on Pearl Jam´s composition process - other band members were "afraid" to offer their own lyrics, assuming that Eddie would throw a fit and hate this, but it turned out he was actually tired of writing full albums and wanted the other guys to contribute as well. Again, I´m only judging what I reead about this in the press, but maybe MP should have had a different approach when talking to the guys. I feel a lot of sympathy for him - many (if not all) of us have made career-changing mistakes - and I´m contributing as much as I can for one of his projects to be fully successful, so that he can be happy about his choice of leaving DT.
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So, what's stopping MP from emailing/contacting the other two? I wish he'd stop trying to play like he's the victim or the one who was wronged. It's really immature.
Why do you assume he hasn't? Making assumptions like that and attacking him for them are just as immature.
At the time, soon after he left, he said in interviews that he had been trying to get in contact with the guys but none of them were getting back to him, just the band's legal team. So from what we know, he probably has tried to get in touch with all of them but only some have now responded.
i can imagine " 2 of them haven't emailed me " means " They haven't replied because I never emailed them in the 1st place " . . .
Sure, you can imagine it, but that doesn't make it true. :P
No, but it doesn't make it untrue either. He *does* like to make himself the victim whenever he talks about DT.
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That's not a fact, that's just your opinion.
I feel that he has definitely done that sometimes, but not nearly as much as his critics like to make out.
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https://www.blabbermouth.net/news/mike-portnoy-would-love-nothing-more-than-to-be-one-happy-family-with-former-bandmates-in-dream-theater/
Posting this here in case nobody has seen it yet. He's been texting with Petrucci and Rudess and that the "dust is settling".
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(https://fun.resplace.net/Emoticons/Quiet/Shutup.gif)
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Well, it's nice that they're on good terms, but still, it's really not a "we'll see" situation. They're not going to just get rid of MM. Especially since things are working out so well.
But, being in contact with JR and JP could definitely heighten the chances of another LTE project, if those two DO feel like working with MP again.
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Well that's pretty awesome. Cool to see that they're communicating again.
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As I recall from past interviews - Mike has been in contact with Jordan and Petrucci since the split.
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Things seem really tense between MP and JLB. I mean, really. I kind of understand why, but I can't put my finger in why they've been in a no-talk-at-all situation since 2010.
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Another LTE project with the original members is more nostalgic than anything else. I'd rather see JP and JR go do an instrumental side project with a different great drummer like Marco or someone else rather than rekindle a fire that went out over a decade ago.
EDIT: the new JR project could have been absolutely incredible, for example, if JP were playing guitar rather than Marco. Bringing it back to the thread-- not only do I not want to hear MP with DT, I don't want to hear MP with LTE either. I want to hear MP with WD and FC and those type of projects from now on because that's where I think he fits in best musically. WD has been on a great run from their latest album and I look forward to more of that.
Not to mention the fact that at this point, from a musical standpoint-- in terms of playing-- it would make literally no sense for DT to go back to MP. A member on a different forum made a very accurate analogy, that it would be like trading in your new Ferrari to get your old bicycle back.
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Another LTE project with the original members is more nostalgic than anything else. I'd rather see JP and JR go do an instrumental side project with a different great drummer like Marco someone else rather than rekindle a fire that went out over a decade ago.
:marriageanalogy:
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Another LTE project with the original members is more nostalgic than anything else. I'd rather see JP and JR go do an instrumental side project with a different great drummer like Marco someone else rather than rekindle a fire that went out over a decade ago.
But if they start talking more and more, it wouldn't be surprising for JR and JP to want to work with MP again. Another LTE project seems a lot more realistic and plausible than having him back in DT.
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They should totally start a progressive death metal band together.
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Scream Theater.
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Debut album : Incisions & Wounds.
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Get someone like Travis Ryan onboard, and I could see something rad as fuck coming out.
A bastard can dream.
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Another LTE project with the original members is more nostalgic than anything else. I'd rather see JP and JR go do an instrumental side project with a different great drummer like Marco someone else rather than rekindle a fire that went out over a decade ago.
:marriageanalogy:
...Well, Levin Minnemann Rudess is coming out this September...
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Really nice to see that he's on good terms again with JR and JP. We knew they were in contact, but it's nice to hear that they're getting on, and especially good to hear that MP is keen on maintaining friendships, which it sounds like is separate from his previous comments about going back to them in a heartbeat.
I really hope they can get their friendships back to how they were - watching band documentaries even up to SC, they all seemed to have so much fun together.
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They should totally start a progressive death metal band together.
:metalol:
Another LTE project with the original members is more nostalgic than anything else. I'd rather see JP and JR go do an instrumental side project with a different great drummer like Marco someone else rather than rekindle a fire that went out over a decade ago.
:marriageanalogy:
...Well, Levin Minnemann Rudess is coming out this September...
LMR =/= LTE
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As a fan since I&W it would mean a lot to me if those 3 could be friends again. At first I kind of felt like I had to pick sides because it
was so nasty. But now that time is passing I am happy for both camps....I would just like to see them be close again. I don't really
care if JLB and JM are never close with MP but I do care that JP and JR are friends again. Those 3 were the heart and soul of DT.
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What MP should do now is focus on his projects. And while he's at it, why not doing the long discussed albumm he planned with Steven Wilson and Michael Akerfeldt?
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What MP should do now is focus on his projects. And while he's at it, why not doing the long discussed albumm he planned with Steven Wilson and Michael Akerfeldt?
That began as Storm Corrosion, only during/after writing the music SW and MA decided that the music didn't really need drums (apart from a few bits) so that was pretty much canceled.
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They should totally start a progressive death metal band together.
:metalol:
Another LTE project with the original members is more nostalgic than anything else. I'd rather see JP and JR go do an instrumental side project with a different great drummer like Marco someone else rather than rekindle a fire that went out over a decade ago.
:marriageanalogy:
...Well, Levin Minnemann Rudess is coming out this September...
LMR =/= LTE
In the same way that Winery Dogs are not Liquid Tension Experiment.
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Right now the best thing MP can do is focus on the huge project he set in motion for this February and make sure everything will be perfect in every detail. Dwelling in the past in never the healthiest of choices. :)
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Another LTE project with the original members is more nostalgic than anything else. I'd rather see JP and JR go do an instrumental side project with a different great drummer like Marco or someone else rather than rekindle a fire that went out over a decade ago.
EDIT: the new JR project could have been absolutely incredible, for example, if JP were playing guitar rather than Marco. Bringing it back to the thread-- not only do I not want to hear MP with DT, I don't want to hear MP with LTE either. I want to hear MP with WD and FC and those type of projects from now on because that's where I think he fits in best musically. WD has been on a great run from their latest album and I look forward to more of that.
I fully agree that it doesn't make sense for DT to go back to MP unless MM were to decide to leave the band. However, having MP do another LTE project with JP, JR and TL makes perfect sense as someone else mentioned. Leave MM with DT and let MP do something with LTE. Why should another LTE project be a nostalgia act in comparison to TA? If anything, the 2008 shows were more nostalgia than if they were to do a new album together.
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Well I like both projects, but TA still makes new material. It's not like they go out every few years playing Bridge Across Forever material, they still do new stuff. Not a nostalgia act at all.
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Well I like both projects, but TA still makes new material. It's not like they go out every few years playing Bridge Across Forever material, they still do new stuff. Not a nostalgia act at all.
Wouldn't a third studio LTE album qualify as "new material?"
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Well yea, but as far as I know they haven't made one.
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Things seem really tense between MP and JLB. I mean, really. I kind of understand why, but I can't put my finger in why they've been in a no-talk-at-all situation since 2010.
Honestly, there doesn't even need to be a "drama explanation" for this. Having been in several bands myself, there's always band members who are close to each other and ones that essentially "just happen to be in the same band". When the band splits, some people stay in contact, whereas others never hear of each other again. Even though there's no hard feelings.
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https://www.blabbermouth.net/news/mike-portnoy-would-love-nothing-more-than-to-be-one-happy-family-with-former-bandmates-in-dream-theater/
Posting this here in case nobody has seen it yet. He's been texting with Petrucci and Rudess and that the "dust is settling".
Whoa did I just read that article right? He answered the questions without giving too much unnecessary details, didn't act in a passive aggressive manner, and steered the conversation towards (rightfully) promoting his own projects?
Thats a breath of fresh air.
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i don't want for MM to be kicked out or anything. but if for whatever reason he had to leave, i'd be ecstatic to no end and giddy as a school girl if MP returns to DT one day. that day would be so epic. I don't believe that most DT fans would be too upset about this, as the outcome of this poll might indicate. (I still can't believe it's so lopsided). Y'all would love it too! And rejoice. But generally I've found that the voices on these forums are not really a true representation of DT fans everywhere.
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As a fan since I&W it would mean a lot to me if those 3 could be friends again. At first I kind of felt like I had to pick sides because it
was so nasty.
Personally, I never thought things were all that nasty. If you compare DT to many other bands out there, relatively speaking, both DT and MP have been very civil.
I mean, look at Queensryche, FFS. Now THAT'S a nasty break up!
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i don't want for MM to be kicked out or anything. but if for whatever reason he had to leave, i'd be ecstatic to no end and giddy as a school girl if MP returns to DT one day. that day would be so epic. I don't believe that most DT fans would be too upset about this, as the outcome of this poll might indicate. (I still can't believe it's so lopsided). Y'all would love it too! And rejoice. But generally I've found that the voices on these forums are not really a true representation of DT fans everywhere.
You're definitely right with your last sentence, but I would not be too happy if MP came back to DT (no matter why that would happen - and I'm sure it will never happen). DT have always been a band that moved on and forward no matter what happened, and as soon as any reunion for more than just one or two shows took place, that would not be the case anymore.
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But generally I've found that the voices on these forums are not really a true representation of DT fans everywhere.
Yeah, but personally, I think the voices on these forums are a bit more intelligent and have a better understanding of DT than 'fans everywhere'. Not to insult the fans, but seriously, how many times have I read random Facebook comments on both MP's and DT's pages saying, "Bring MP back!" or "MP needs to be back in DT!"
Like, that's cool and all, but if those fans truly feel that way, then they really don't seem to fully understand the circumstances under which MP had left, and now, circumstances under which MM has joined. Or else, they only care about MP playing with the band, and seeing them live like that, and don't really care how they might actually get along, or how MP might have felt when he decided to leave.
And now that JLB and JM seem to be happier than ever, (and let's face it, it's not like JR and JP are complaining about Mike Mangini either) I think it's pretty safe to say that as a whole, the band is a lot happier without MP in it. And that's what those masses of fans don't seem to put into consideration when they talk about how badly they want MP back.
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But generally I've found that the voices on these forums are not really a true representation of DT fans everywhere.
Yeah, but personally, I think the voices on these forums are a bit more intelligent and have a better understanding of DT than 'fans everywhere'. Not to insult the fans, but seriously, how many times have I read random Facebook comments on both MP's and DT's pages saying, "Bring MP back!" or "MP needs to be back in DT!"
Like, that's cool and all, but if those fans truly feel that way, then they really don't seem to fully understand the circumstances under which MP had left, and now, circumstances under which MM has joined. Or else, they only care about MP playing with the band, and seeing them live like that, and don't really care how they might actually get along, or how MP might have felt when he decided to leave.
And now that JLB and JM seem to be happier than ever, (and let's face it, it's not like JR and JP are complaining about Mike Mangini either) I think it's pretty safe to say that as a whole, the band is a lot happier without MP in it. And that's what those masses of fans don't seem to put into consideration when they talk about how badly they want MP back.
Or they just want MP back. There's nothing wrong with that opinion. I think that actually is a little insulting to the other fans out there.
That said, I'm very happy with the line-up as it is now and wouldn't want them to magically swap in MP, but if god forbid anything ever did happen where MM wasn't able to continue, I'd probably want the same thing.
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Well, if any of those fans are lurking here, and feel insulted by my statement, I think they need to give a little more thought about the band's current morale and how the band would feel, and how MM would feel, before screaming how much they want MP back.
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Well, if any of those fans are lurking here, and feel insulted by my statement, I think they need to give a little more thought about the band's current morale and how the band would feel, and how MM would feel, before screaming how much they want MP back.
Or you could just let each person have their own opinion without belittling those opinions.
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I was just stating my opinion. Can't please everyone.
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But generally I've found that the voices on these forums are not really a true representation of DT fans everywhere.
Yeah, but personally, I think the voices on these forums are a bit more intelligent and have a better understanding of DT than 'fans everywhere'. Not to insult the fans, but seriously, how many times have I read random Facebook comments on both MP's and DT's pages saying, "Bring MP back!" or "MP needs to be back in DT!"
Like, that's cool and all, but if those fans truly feel that way, then they really don't seem to fully understand the circumstances under which MP had left, and now, circumstances under which MM has joined. Or else, they only care about MP playing with the band, and seeing them live like that, and don't really care how they might actually get along, or how MP might have felt when he decided to leave.
And now that JLB and JM seem to be happier than ever, (and let's face it, it's not like JR and JP are complaining about Mike Mangini either) I think it's pretty safe to say that as a whole, the band is a lot happier without MP in it. And that's what those masses of fans don't seem to put into consideration when they talk about how badly they want MP back.
Or they just want MP back. There's nothing wrong with that opinion. I think that actually is a little insulting to the other fans out there.
That said, I'm very happy with the line-up as it is now and wouldn't want them to magically swap in MP, but if god forbid anything ever did happen where MM wasn't able to continue, I'd probably want the same thing.
But in all fairness, a decent number of those fans don't even know MP left the band. MP still gets requests for DT to come here and there.. and Indonesia... mostly Indonesia. But still. That's kinda a lot of fans. And there's nothing wrong with that. DT doesn't need to be their favorite band. I just think those are the kind of fans that TGP is talking about. The ones who aren't super "emotionally involved" with DT the way that we are. I mean, if they don't like the band enough to know by now that MP isn't the drummer anymore (and hasn't been for three fuckin years), then they're opinion can't matter too much. I mean, I like The Foo Fighters, but they're not my favorite band, and I don't feel like my opinion on something FF related would matter as much as a die hard FF fan's opinion. That's just my take on what TGP said though.
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But in all fairness, a decent number of those fans don't even know MP left the band. MP still gets requests for DT to come here and there.. and Indonesia... mostly Indonesia. But still. That's kinda a lot of fans. And there's nothing wrong with that. DT doesn't need to be their favorite band. I just think those are the kind of fans that TGP is talking about. The ones who aren't super "emotionally involved" with DT the way that we are. That's just my take on what TGP said though.
TGP is talking about the fans who want MP back in DT. I'm pretty sure these people are aware that MP is no longer in DT. :lol
This forum has a pretty bad habit of underestimating and writing off the fanbase outside of this forum. Anybody who is even enough of a fan to like their FB page would clearly see that MP is not in DT anymore. They've had years to catch on.
The number of people making these MP Indonesia etc comments are a tiny group, and I'm not convinced most of them are real anyway considering it's basically become a mocking meme at this point.
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TGP is talking about the fans who want MP back in DT. I'm pretty sure these people are aware that MP is no longer in DT. :lol
This forum has a pretty bad habit of underestimating and writing off the fanbase outside of this forum. Anybody who is even enough of a fan to like their FB page would clearly see that MP is not in DT anymore. They've had years to catch on.
But at the same time, just because they like the music, and know the names of the band members, and know that MP left the band, doesn't mean that they read up on all the interviews, and know how the band members felt before the break-up, or after the break up. I mean, heck, JLB has stated last year, and now again this year, that MP will not be coming back to the band and that MM is their full time drummer for the foreseeable future. If they're still willing to constantly post, "Bring MP back into Dream Theater", and if they honestly think there's going to be any kind of a consequential outcry for this, they're really hoping against hope.
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But in all fairness, a decent number of those fans don't even know MP left the band. MP still gets requests for DT to come here and there.. and Indonesia... mostly Indonesia. But still. That's kinda a lot of fans. And there's nothing wrong with that. DT doesn't need to be their favorite band. I just think those are the kind of fans that TGP is talking about. The ones who aren't super "emotionally involved" with DT the way that we are. That's just my take on what TGP said though.
TGP is talking about the fans who want MP back in DT. I'm pretty sure these people are aware that MP is no longer in DT. :lol
This forum has a pretty bad habit of underestimating and writing off the fanbase outside of this forum. Anybody who is even enough of a fan to like their FB page would clearly see that MP is not in DT anymore. They've had years to catch on.
The number of people making these MP Indonesia etc comments are a tiny group, and I'm not convinced most of them are real anyway considering it's basically become a mocking meme at this point.
I know I know, but I'm just trying to point out that if there are that many fans out there that don't even know he left, there are probably tons of fans who know he left, but don't even really know what that means as far as the wellness of the band now. They know that MP left, but they don't realize what DT has gained because of that. Not only MM, but happiness, rejuvenation, and a greater sense of togetherness. James is finally the frontman like he should have been all along, JM has been seen eating with the rest of the band during their last tour, they're recording what they want now.. I just think that those fans just fell in love with MP's 'frontman', wacky, funny, personality, and they didn't really even know a lot of what was going on behind the scenes like a lot of us know. Is that the case for all of the fans who aren't a part of this forum? Of course not. But I'm sure it is for a lot of them. And once again, I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that at all. No disrespect towards any DT fans. Those were just my thoughts. :metal
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TGP is talking about the fans who want MP back in DT. I'm pretty sure these people are aware that MP is no longer in DT. :lol
This forum has a pretty bad habit of underestimating and writing off the fanbase outside of this forum. Anybody who is even enough of a fan to like their FB page would clearly see that MP is not in DT anymore. They've had years to catch on.
But at the same time, just because they like the music, and know the names of the band members, and know that MP left the band, doesn't mean that they read up on all the interviews, and know how the band members felt before the break-up, or after the break up. I mean, heck, JLB has stated last year, and now again this year, that MP will not be coming back to the band and that MM is their full time drummer for the foreseeable future. If they're still willing to constantly post, "Bring MP back into Dream Theater", and if they honestly think there's going to be any kind of a consequential outcry for this, they're really hoping against hope.
Again, you're just trying to write off an opinion you don't agree with. You don't have any proof either way on what they do or don't know, and it doesn't really matter anyway. I know as much as anyone else here about what's gone down since the split, and I have no issue with the validity of their opinions at all. You're reading too much into it.
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Again, you're just trying to write off an opinion you don't agree with.
It's not really that. I just know if I was in the same situation as DT, I wouldn't appreciate fans asking to bring MP back. I mean it sounds simple, but when you break it down, it's the same as saying, "You guys should go ahead and fire Mike Mangini after he quit instructing at Berkley just to be in your band, and bring Portnoy back even though two of your members are so much happier without him."
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Going a little bit off topic and this is completely random, but this has been something that has crossed my min. Does anyone else think that JLB could possibly threaten to walk if JR and JP wanted to bring MP back into the band?
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Again, you're just trying to write off an opinion you don't agree with.
It's not really that. I just know if I was in the same situation as DT, I wouldn't appreciate fans asking to bring MP back. I mean it sounds simple, but when you break it down, it's the same as saying, "You guys should go ahead and fire Mike Mangini after he quit instructing at Berkley just to be in your band, and bring Portnoy back even though two of your members are so much happier without him."
Agreed and that should seal the deal. As for the argument, you can try nitpick everything, try to be as politically correct and affable as you can be, the opinion of an outsider on any given subject doesn't weigh as much as the opinion of someone with better knowledge of the same subject.
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Going a little bit off topic and this is completely random, but this has been something that has crossed my min. Does anyone else think that JLB could possibly threaten to walk if JR and JP wanted to bring MP back into the band?
I thought about that too. Honestly, I doubt he'd THREATEN to walk, but if it did happen in such away, I could see him just coasting within the band, coming in to record vocals when they write albums and going on tour, but not really going out of his way to actively be a represent the band like he's doing now. But I'm pretty sure that he wouldn't walk, just because it is Dream Theater, and it's his bread and butter, pretty much. I doubt he could make as comfortable of a living if he fully dedicated himself to his solo career with Matt Guillory. And I think it would be more difficult for a vocalist like him to involve himself in a ton of side projects like MP is doing.
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Again, you're just trying to write off an opinion you don't agree with.
It's not really that. I just know if I was in the same situation as DT, I wouldn't appreciate fans asking to bring MP back. I mean it sounds simple, but when you break it down, it's the same as saying, "You guys should go ahead and fire Mike Mangini after he quit instructing at Berkley just to be in your band, and bring Portnoy back even though two of your members are so much happier without him."
Agreed and that should seal the deal. As for the argument, you can try nitpick everything, try to be as politically correct and affable as you can be, the opinion of an outsider on any given subject doesn't weigh as much as the opinion of someone with better knowledge of the same subject.
Sure it does, because an opinion is still just an opinion, and it's arrogant to think an "outsider's" opinion holds less weight, based only on assumptions, when it's still just your opinion. You don't know how much or little they know. This is getting silly.
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Going a little bit off topic and this is completely random, but this has been something that has crossed my min. Does anyone else think that JLB could possibly threaten to walk if JR and JP wanted to bring MP back into the band?
I thought about that too. Honestly, I doubt he'd THREATEN to walk, but if it did happen in such away, I could see him just coasting within the band, coming in to record vocals when they write albums and going on tour, but not really going out of his way to actively be a represent the band like he's doing now. But I'm pretty sure that he wouldn't walk, just because it is Dream Theater, and it's his bread and butter, pretty much. I doubt he could make as comfortable of a living if he fully dedicated himself to his solo career with Matt Guillory. And I think it would be more difficult for a vocalist like him to involve himself in a ton of side projects like MP is doing.
Yeah, I pretty much thought that too, but it's an interesting topic that if MP ever returned, might see the whole band implode.
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Going a little bit off topic and this is completely random, but this has been something that has crossed my min. Does anyone else think that JLB could possibly threaten to walk if JR and JP wanted to bring MP back into the band?
I thought about that too. Honestly, I doubt he'd THREATEN to walk, but if it did happen in such away, I could see him just coasting within the band, coming in to record vocals when they write albums and going on tour, but not really going out of his way to actively be a represent the band like he's doing now. But I'm pretty sure that he wouldn't walk, just because it is Dream Theater, and it's his bread and butter, pretty much. I doubt he could make as comfortable of a living if he fully dedicated himself to his solo career with Matt Guillory. And I think it would be more difficult for a vocalist like him to involve himself in a ton of side projects like MP is doing.
And I wouldn't be interested in a Dream Theater minus Labrie and with Portnoy.
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I would be ok with MP coming back only if MM was unable to continue with the band and MP accepted that he can't lead the band or at least have as much control as before the split. He should also stay out of the vocal booth :lol
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I would be ok with MP coming back only if MM was unable to continue with the band and MP accepted that he can't lead the band or at least have as much control as before the split. He should also stay out of the vocal booth :lol
I too would love to live in a world without anger, with cute animals, DT fans everywhere and good politicians. Too bad it doesn't exist :D
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I speculate that the biggest issue with Mike ever coming back would be between Mike and James. There's not only a lot of history there (from when Mike wanted to sack James), but also, if you were following the band closely when Mike left, there was a lot of passive back-and-forth between Mike and James. Even now, James' interviews are especially candid whenever he gets asked about MP. JLB is usually exceptionally clear that MP coming back is completely off the table.
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I too would love to live in a world without anger, with cute animals, DT fans everywhere and good politicians. Too bad it doesn't exist :D
That's why I said "only if" :) If MM left I bet DT would break up or hire a new drummer instead of asking MP to come back.
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Another LTE project with the original members is more nostalgic than anything else. I'd rather see JP and JR go do an instrumental side project with a different great drummer like Marco or someone else rather than rekindle a fire that went out over a decade ago.
EDIT: the new JR project could have been absolutely incredible, for example, if JP were playing guitar rather than Marco. Bringing it back to the thread-- not only do I not want to hear MP with DT, I don't want to hear MP with LTE either. I want to hear MP with WD and FC and those type of projects from now on because that's where I think he fits in best musically. WD has been on a great run from their latest album and I look forward to more of that.
I fully agree that it doesn't make sense for DT to go back to MP unless MM were to decide to leave the band. However, having MP do another LTE project with JP, JR and TL makes perfect sense as someone else mentioned. Leave MM with DT and let MP do something with LTE. Why should another LTE project be a nostalgia act in comparison to TA? If anything, the 2008 shows were more nostalgia than if they were to do a new album together.
I'm not at all familiar with TA so I don't want to comment on it.
I think that in terms of drumming, I (and some others) have gotten all out of MP that we're going to get. He's a great drummer, and in my opinion, he is best suited at this point to the music he is currently getting involved in.
If JP and JR wanted to do another LTE project, and unless someone else knows something, there has been no indication that another LTE is even on the radar. And even if they did want another progressive project like that, what makes you think they would necessarilyask MP to do it? They've both shown interest in working for other drummers-- Marco, for example-- and maybe they would want to ask someone else. The fact that they're getting on better terms with one another now is not in anyway a sign that they want to or WILL work together on anything. It only means they're getting on friendlier terms. Anyway, on a personal level I think it's great they're getting back in touch slowly, but I sorta think of that as separate from the creative/business part. Or to build upon the band member/wife analogy that MP used, just because you get back on friendly speaking terms with your ex-wife, doesn't mean that getting back with her at all on the horizon or a good idea or what each of you necessarily wants.
Musically, I just would not be that excited about another LTE with original members for any other reason that it would be nice to see everyone together.
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Going a little bit off topic and this is completely random, but this has been something that has crossed my min. Does anyone else think that JLB could possibly threaten to walk if JR and JP wanted to bring MP back into the band?
I thought about that too. Honestly, I doubt he'd THREATEN to walk, but if it did happen in such away, I could see him just coasting within the band, coming in to record vocals when they write albums and going on tour, but not really going out of his way to actively be a represent the band like he's doing now. But I'm pretty sure that he wouldn't walk, just because it is Dream Theater, and it's his bread and butter, pretty much. I doubt he could make as comfortable of a living if he fully dedicated himself to his solo career with Matt Guillory. And I think it would be more difficult for a vocalist like him to involve himself in a ton of side projects like MP is doing.
This hypothetical would never happen and it assumes so many different things that I don't even think are worth thinking about because of how unlikely to happen/impossible to know they are. First of all, unless something god-forbid happened to MM, the band isn't getting a new drummer. There is no reason to think or predict or prepare for this scenario in the first place. Second, you then have to assume the band would even bring MP back, as opposed to bringing in someone else. The band could just as easily bring in PW. I don't think it's safer at all to bring back MP. Then you're predicting JLB would walk lol. THAT would never happen. He has little leverage first of all since a hefty size of the fan base isn't even crazy about him as a vocalist. And secondly, DT is what he does for a living. He's not going to just walk away from that because of some drama he maybe wasn't even that involved with in the first place. It ain't happening. The first thing that would need to happen for any of your hypothetical scenario to occur is not going to happen.
MM is here for the rest of the band's life. And thank you baby Jesus for that.
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I hear a lot of JLB, but, I really do not think JM has been any sort of fan of MP for a long time. In fact, he seems much, much happier with MM. Which is great. At the end of the day, in the same way I love the KM and DS / pre JR years, there was never ay looking back and the music evolved. Dream Theater is a machine in Constant Motion. That machine needs new parts every now and then.
As for the JR and JP relationship, I think that is awesome and I'm really happy for them. But, as has been said, there is a big difference between friendship and business. In the same way, a group of people can hate each other and be under contract to make an album.
A new LTE album with MP would be cool, but, it looks like TL and JR are filling that creative capacity with Marco. JP has G3 with Mangini now.
I just hope those 3 can be friends again and hang out. Not try to make music. I think that would probably make all 3 happier and relieve some tension. They don't have to work together.
As for the Progressive Death Metal album:
Would be quite interested in seeing:
Mikael Åkerfeldt - Vocals and Rhythm
John Petrucci - Lead
Tony Levin - Bass
Jordan Rudess - Keys
Mike Portnoy or Marco Minnemann - Drums
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Jordan doesn't like death metal :P
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If JP and JR wanted to do another LTE project, and unless someone else knows something, there has been no indication that another LTE is even on the radar. And even if they did want another progressive project like that, what makes you think they would necessarilyask MP to do it? They've both shown interest in working for other drummers-- Marco, for example-- and maybe they would want to ask someone else. The fact that they're getting on better terms with one another now is not in anyway a sign that they want to or WILL work together on anything. It only means they're getting on friendlier terms. Anyway, on a personal level I think it's great they're getting back in touch slowly, but I sorta think of that as separate from the creative/business part. Or to build upon the band member/wife analogy that MP used, just because you get back on friendly speaking terms with your ex-wife, doesn't mean that getting back with her at all on the horizon or a good idea or what each of you necessarily wants.
Musically, I just would not be that excited about another LTE with original members for any other reason that it would be nice to see everyone together.
See, this is the one I just don't quite get. Sure, it's definitely possible that JP and JR could do another side project with people who are no MP. But not LTE. LTE was founded by Portnoy. Not co-founded. Founded entirely by him. And remember, LTE was founded before JR was in DT, and Portnoy only asked Petrucci to do LTE after being turned down by several other guitarists. There is no way that JP and JR would make another Liquid Tension Experiment album behind Mike's back just because he chose to quit a completely different band.
TisBOOLsheet, if you weren't referring to another actual LTE album then sorry and my post doesn't apply to you, but I still want to say this because a couple of pages back someone else mentioned the idea of an LTE with Minnemann or another drummer.
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I hear a lot of JLB, but, I really do not think JM has been any sort of fan of MP for a long time. In fact, he seems much, much happier with MM. Which is great. At the end of the day, in the same way I love the KM and DS / pre JR years, there was never ay looking back and the music evolved. Dream Theater is a machine in Constant Motion. That machine needs new parts every now and then.
As for the JR and JP relationship, I think that is awesome and I'm really happy for them. But, as has been said, there is a big difference between friendship and business. In the same way, a group of people can hate each other and be under contract to make an album.
A new LTE album with MP would be cool, but, it looks like TL and JR are filling that creative capacity with Marco. JP has G3 with Mangini now.
I just hope those 3 can be friends again and hang out. Not try to make music. I think that would probably make all 3 happier and relieve some tension. They don't have to work together.
As for the Progressive Death Metal album:
Would be quite interested in seeing:
Mikael Åkerfeldt - Vocals and Rhythm
John Petrucci - Lead
Tony Levin - Bass
Jordan Rudess - Keys
Mike Portnoy or Marco Minnemann - Drums
I don't wanna be a party pisser or sound like a basher, but MP can't play Death Metal.
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I hear a lot of JLB, but, I really do not think JM has been any sort of fan of MP for a long time. In fact, he seems much, much happier with MM. Which is great. At the end of the day, in the same way I love the KM and DS / pre JR years, there was never ay looking back and the music evolved. Dream Theater is a machine in Constant Motion. That machine needs new parts every now and then.
As for the JR and JP relationship, I think that is awesome and I'm really happy for them. But, as has been said, there is a big difference between friendship and business. In the same way, a group of people can hate each other and be under contract to make an album.
A new LTE album with MP would be cool, but, it looks like TL and JR are filling that creative capacity with Marco. JP has G3 with Mangini now.
I just hope those 3 can be friends again and hang out. Not try to make music. I think that would probably make all 3 happier and relieve some tension. They don't have to work together.
As for the Progressive Death Metal album:
Would be quite interested in seeing:
Mikael Åkerfeldt - Vocals and Rhythm
John Petrucci - Lead
Tony Levin - Bass
Jordan Rudess - Keys
Mike Portnoy or Marco Minnemann - Drums
I don't wanna be a party pisser or sound like a basher, but MP can't play Death Metal.
Yeah I know, but he's wanted to put together a heavy project with Mikael Åkerfeldt so it would be rude not to include him :P
With M.P it might end up just being, different, so it would be interesting. It wouldn't be the amazing stuff that Axe can pull off but it might have more groove which might go well with low grunts :D
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Going a little bit off topic and this is completely random, but this has been something that has crossed my min. Does anyone else think that JLB could possibly threaten to walk if JR and JP wanted to bring MP back into the band?
I thought about that too. Honestly, I doubt he'd THREATEN to walk, but if it did happen in such away, I could see him just coasting within the band, coming in to record vocals when they write albums and going on tour, but not really going out of his way to actively be a represent the band like he's doing now. But I'm pretty sure that he wouldn't walk, just because it is Dream Theater, and it's his bread and butter, pretty much. I doubt he could make as comfortable of a living if he fully dedicated himself to his solo career with Matt Guillory. And I think it would be more difficult for a vocalist like him to involve himself in a ton of side projects like MP is doing.
And I wouldn't be interested in a Dream Theater minus Labrie and with Portnoy.
Same here.
Also, there is a few things to consider when talking about this situation.
We don't know if everyone in DT has an equal vote but if they did, I'm sure it would be 2 to 2 against bringing MP back. Even if JR and JP have a slightly bigger share of the vote, I doubt they would risk alienating JLB and JM just because they wanted MP back.
Second, JP and JR seem like they are incredibly laid back and less vocal about their distaste for certain things which certainly doesn't mean they are willing to roll over and get treated poorly. In fact, even though each of them have been texting Mike and keeping things cool, I wouldn't doubt that they were the most adamant about carrying on without MP.
JP always remains pretty classy and somewhat vague in interviews but I remember reading where he was sort of pressed about his views and he admitted being cool with MP filling in for A7X but when he did the tour JP was pretty uncomfortable with that.
Soooooo I doubt it is just JLB and JM that don't want him back.
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I hear a lot of JLB, but, I really do not think JM has been any sort of fan of MP for a long time. In fact, he seems much, much happier with MM. Which is great. At the end of the day, in the same way I love the KM and DS / pre JR years, there was never ay looking back and the music evolved. Dream Theater is a machine in Constant Motion. That machine needs new parts every now and then.
As for the JR and JP relationship, I think that is awesome and I'm really happy for them. But, as has been said, there is a big difference between friendship and business. In the same way, a group of people can hate each other and be under contract to make an album.
A new LTE album with MP would be cool, but, it looks like TL and JR are filling that creative capacity with Marco. JP has G3 with Mangini now.
I just hope those 3 can be friends again and hang out. Not try to make music. I think that would probably make all 3 happier and relieve some tension. They don't have to work together.
As for the Progressive Death Metal album:
Would be quite interested in seeing:
Mikael Åkerfeldt - Vocals and Rhythm
John Petrucci - Lead
Tony Levin - Bass
Jordan Rudess - Keys
Mike Portnoy or Marco Minnemann - Drums
Eh my line up would be:
Travis Ryan - Vocals (Cattle Decapitation)
John Petrucci - Lead/Rhythm
Nick Schendzielos - Bass (He's in Cephalic Carnage and Job For A Cowboy, absolutely amazing bassist)
Jordan Rudess - Keys (get a harpsichord in if you can dammit :lol)
Mike Portnoy - Drums
Mikael Akerdfeldt aside from playing a few songs live, doesn't seem to be into death metal anymore :'(
I couldn't think of anyone for Rhythm that isn't completely obscure to you guys so I opted to just have someone fill in live.
Man that would be a sick lineup.
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If JP and JR wanted to do another LTE project, and unless someone else knows something, there has been no indication that another LTE is even on the radar. And even if they did want another progressive project like that, what makes you think they would necessarilyask MP to do it? They've both shown interest in working for other drummers-- Marco, for example-- and maybe they would want to ask someone else. The fact that they're getting on better terms with one another now is not in anyway a sign that they want to or WILL work together on anything. It only means they're getting on friendlier terms. Anyway, on a personal level I think it's great they're getting back in touch slowly, but I sorta think of that as separate from the creative/business part. Or to build upon the band member/wife analogy that MP used, just because you get back on friendly speaking terms with your ex-wife, doesn't mean that getting back with her at all on the horizon or a good idea or what each of you necessarily wants.
Musically, I just would not be that excited about another LTE with original members for any other reason that it would be nice to see everyone together.
See, this is the one I just don't quite get. Sure, it's definitely possible that JP and JR could do another side project with people who are no MP. But not LTE. LTE was founded by Portnoy. Not co-founded. Founded entirely by him. And remember, LTE was founded before JR was in DT, and Portnoy only asked Petrucci to do LTE after being turned down by several other guitarists. There is no way that JP and JR would make another Liquid Tension Experiment album behind Mike's back just because he chose to quit a completely different band.
TisBOOLsheet, if you weren't referring to another actual LTE album then sorry and my post doesn't apply to you, but I still want to say this because a couple of pages back someone else mentioned the idea of an LTE with Minnemann or another drummer.
I didn't know that LTE was entirely founded by MP. In that case, yes, LTE would likely not continue without him. My point was that if JP and JR, if they wanted to do a progressive instrumental project together have a ton of options in terms of drummers now, and they've clearly been exploring that. If LTE were going to continue, it would have happened before. Now would actually be one the least logical times for this to happen. Any speculation about it is pointless. If it will happen in the future, it's too far in the distance for any of us to see.
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My thoughts on wanting MP back are merely constructed in a vacuum, not taken into account on purpose the circumstances surrounding the split, even though I'm well aware of all the dramatic events. Does that make me less intelligent? But in a perfect world, if you will. If somehow in the future everyone get along wonderfully again and a reunion is possible, that would just be awesome and glorious and nice! And I think I would not be in the minority in thinking that. That is all I'm saying.
Lately I've been watching old DT videos with Portnoy in them, and I just miss him in the band is all. Don't mean to be that annoying Facebooker screaming for him back all the time.
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Regarding another LTE, unless MP steps up his drumming game, I wouldn't be particularly interested, especially when considering the other options out there for drummers.
Besides, Levin/Rudess/Minnemann is exactly that instrumental fix, at least for Jordan.
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Regarding another LTE, unless MP steps up his drumming game, I wouldn't be particularly interested, especially when considering the other options out there for drummers.
Besides, Levin/Rudess/Minnemann is exactly that instrumental fix, at least for Jordan.
Completely agree. This is 100% what I've been trying to say, without being as blunt.
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And I wouldn't be interested in a Dream Theater minus Labrie and with Portnoy.
Definitely agreed. JLB's voice took some time for me to get used to, but once I did, it really stuck, and at this point, he is the voice of Dream Theater. Sure, musicians all have their own styles and little things they do that make them stand out, but at the end of the day, if you tune your instrument the right way, and have the chops for it, anyone can sound like Petrucci, or Portnoy, or whoever. (I've heard DT instrumental covers that were almost indistinguishable from the original songs), but the human voice is unique.
Regarding the LTE discussion, I think some of you guys missing the point. Yes, JR might be satisfied with his instrumental fix, and yes, there might be better drummers out there for a potential third LTE, but the whole point of another LTE project would be if JP and JR specifically want to do something with MP again. I'm just saying that they might eventually say, "I miss working with Mike. We need to do something with him." I mean, heck, maybe they could get together with MP and start something completely different anyway, but when LTE is already an established brand, I think for Rudess, Portnoy and Petrucci to start a 'new' band would be kind of redundant, unless they want to do something different, like start making some really heavy, Raw Dog like music.
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And I wouldn't be interested in a Dream Theater minus Labrie and with Portnoy.
Regarding the LTE discussion, I think some of you guys missing the point. Yes, JR might be satisfied with his instrumental fix, and yes, there might be better drummers out there for a potential third LTE, but the whole point of another LTE project would be if JP and JR specifically want to do something with MP again. I'm just saying that they might eventually say, "I miss working with Mike. We need to do something with him." I mean, heck, maybe they could get together with MP and start something completely different anyway, but when LTE is already an established brand, I think for Rudess, Portnoy and Petrucci to start a 'new' band would be kind of redundant, unless they want to do something different, like start making some really heavy, Raw Dog like music.
I understand. I just don't look forward to anything like that because of the mentioned reasons.
There's no point in speculating about this anyway. We're wandering off-topic. There is not a scintilla of proof that either of those two guys are considering, or will consider that at some future date. Granted it's far more likely a new LTE project comes out than MP back with DT, but still...there is literally not a hint of evidence that this either is happening or will happen in the near future or that JP and/or JR even WANT to work with MP again. It should just be put to rest unless people actually want to lobby those guys for another LTE.
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mant about carrying on without MP.
JP always remains pretty classy and somewhat vague in interviews but I remember reading where he was sort of pressed about his views and he admitted being cool with MP filling in for A7X but when he did the tour JP was pretty uncomfortable with that.
I also seem to recall JP saying something along the lines of " there's no point being nasty in interviews. " or something to that effect.
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I don't wanna be a party pisser or sound like a basher, but MP can't play Death Metal.
Neither can Petrucci or (especially) Rudess really.
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On a side note, every time I read the title of this thread, I'm reminded of, "Would you like to see... Our secret holy place?"
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I always think of, "Would you like to see...Britannia rule again.. My friend." Probably because I've known Floyd longer.
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Interesting interview:
https://www.prog-sphere.com/news/john-petrucci-of-dream-theater-open-for-possible-sharing-stage-with-the-winery-dogs/ (https://www.prog-sphere.com/news/john-petrucci-of-dream-theater-open-for-possible-sharing-stage-with-the-winery-dogs/)
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Interesting interview:
https://www.prog-sphere.com/news/john-petrucci-of-dream-theater-open-for-possible-sharing-stage-with-the-winery-dogs/ (https://www.prog-sphere.com/news/john-petrucci-of-dream-theater-open-for-possible-sharing-stage-with-the-winery-dogs/)
"Is every band member replaceable?"
:censored What an insulting question. JP handled it pretty well though. :tup
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Interesting interview:
https://www.prog-sphere.com/news/john-petrucci-of-dream-theater-open-for-possible-sharing-stage-with-the-winery-dogs/ (https://www.prog-sphere.com/news/john-petrucci-of-dream-theater-open-for-possible-sharing-stage-with-the-winery-dogs/)
"Is every band member replaceable?"
:censored What an insulting question. JP handled it pretty well though. :tup
Indeed. I think only him and James are truly irreplaceable although it would be hard, if not impossible to find someone who would fit in Jordan's shoes. At this point, I could only replace the rhythm section and still call it Dream Theater.
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Interesting interview:
https://www.prog-sphere.com/news/john-petrucci-of-dream-theater-open-for-possible-sharing-stage-with-the-winery-dogs/ (https://www.prog-sphere.com/news/john-petrucci-of-dream-theater-open-for-possible-sharing-stage-with-the-winery-dogs/)
"Is every band member replaceable?"
:censored What an insulting question. JP handled it pretty well though. :tup
Yeah that is kind of insulting. I mean the dude was just fishing for a quote to use in the headline but JP did handle it well.
On the flip side, as soon as I saw you quote that, I decided to read the interview now instead of after I got back from the carwash so the interviewer technically wins this round >:(
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Definitely no :tdwn
The band needs complete compromise of each member, and Mangini gives it (and he is a :hefdaddy beast drummer :metal).
Portnoy is only looking to be back bacause of his ego :facepalm:
DT is really good with the current lineup :tup
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Portnoy is only looking to be back bacause of his ego :facepalm:
That is both untrue, and insulting to MP.
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Portnoy is only looking to be back bacause of his ego :facepalm:
That is both untrue, and insulting to MP.
So much of this
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Portnoy is only looking to be back bacause of his ego :facepalm:
That is both untrue, and insulting to MP.
(https://gamersmafia.com/storage/comments/400/0/garycoleman-wtf.gif)
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I think the vast majority of things that human beings do or want in their lives is driven by their egos, so if you want to put it that way...
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I`m talking about a cry baby ego.
A huge ego.
Not a "normal" ego.
You know...
EGO.
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I don't know... I'm currently REALLY happy with MM on drums and looking forward to a new whole level in DT's history, but at the same time MP is a great part of what made me love this band well over 10 years ago.
The thing is I voted NO, because my first point on MM and things like this (posted by MP on FB)
"OMG...this is BRILLIANT! My drum parts have a whole new flavor...THIS GUY should've been the one to take my place in DT!! hahaha : )
https://youtu.be/EkFNdi8gIMY"
Maybe you can say is really a tongue-in-cheek kind of post, but hey... even in MP's forum this kind of humor is forbidden. So, maybe you can't take that as a jab at MM but some people WILL and, at the end of the day, MP is (mostly unknowingly) generating more negativity towards him, which i might say, really saddens me.
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What the hell did I just watch/listen to? :omg:
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Oh it's the same video as on that other topic! Great job anyway. THis guy is amazing.
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A lot of people were giving MP shit about his comment, but I honestly don't think he meant anything negative to MM.
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Nah.. The first thing i thought after i saw him posting the link to the beat-box video was: "Oh shit.. Somebody's gonna give him a hard time for that comment".
It was clearly just a harmless thounge-in-cheek comment.
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yeah, I mean he obviously didn't think it out very well (not surprised), but definitely harmless. A better alternative would have been "This guy should have been part of the drummer auditions" or something like that. But I definitely don't think he wants this drama to start up again, so I HIGHLY doubt anything was meant by it.
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I`m talking about a cry baby ego.
A huge ego.
Not a "normal" ego.
You know...
EGO.
I remember you were temp-banned. And you seem to be continuing just like before. I'd be careful.
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yeah, I mean he obviously didn't think it out very well (not surprised), but definitely harmless. A better alternative would have been "This guy should have been part of the drummer auditions" or something like that. But I definitely don't think he wants this drama to start up again, so I HIGHLY doubt anything was meant by it.
He may not have meant anything by it, but he certain know what the reaction would be by writing it - which is just as bad imo.
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yeah, I mean he obviously didn't think it out very well (not surprised), but definitely harmless. A better alternative would have been "This guy should have been part of the drummer auditions" or something like that. But I definitely don't think he wants this drama to start up again, so I HIGHLY doubt anything was meant by it.
He may not have meant anything by it, but he certain know what the reaction would be by writing it - which is just as bad imo.
It seems like an innocent joke to me, as much at his own expense, so I don't see any fault on his part in this case. I think it's just a case of overly sensitive fans.
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I don't think he meant it - it's more of a compliment to the guy in the video than anything else.
like " wow - this guy should have been the new dt drummer ! ( if mm hadn't got the job ) "
However - the way he put THIS GUY in capitals is a bit odd. Perhaps he could have taken a few seconds to see how it might have looked.
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let it slide, you're being overly analytical.
Portnoy's a good guy. He's not an a-hole and he definitely doesn't want to start drama or insult other people. Tongue-in-cheek comments like that just tell us he has a sense of humor and uses it to make the rather sad event of leaving the band easier to live with.
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Maybe you can say is really a tongue-in-cheek kind of post, but hey... even in MP's forum this kind of humor is forbidden.
I'm quite happy to give MP stick when he shoves both feet in his mouth and has a damn good go and deep throating them, but I'm struggling to see how MP's post was made in anything other than good humour :-\
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This was a kind joke i think, nothing really bad about it.
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And the guy does a SICK beatbox!!! Great stuff.
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I`m talking about a cry baby ego.
A huge ego.
Not a "normal" ego.
You know...
EGO.
I remember you were temp-banned. And you seem to be continuing just like before. I'd be careful.
This. LBC, consider this your final warning. Any future failure to follow forum rules will get you permanently banned from the site.
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yeah, I mean he obviously didn't think it out very well (not surprised), but definitely harmless. A better alternative would have been "This guy should have been part of the drummer auditions" or something like that. But I definitely don't think he wants this drama to start up again, so I HIGHLY doubt anything was meant by it.
He may not have meant anything by it, but he certain know what the reaction would be by writing it - which is just as bad imo.
So MP shouldn't have posted that remark just because he knew that their might be some overly sensitive DT fans out there that might take what he said the wrong way? Please.. :\
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The only problem I can see with the quote is that MP has capitalised THIS GUY. If it was lower case then it wouldn't seem so bad.
eg : " Haha ! THIS GUY should have replaced me in DT ! "
" Haha ! This guy should have replaced me in DT ! "
The first one looks like ( instead of Mangini )
The second one looks like ( He should have gotten my job when I left ! )
But other than that - it's an obvious joke & compliment.
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yeah, I mean he obviously didn't think it out very well (not surprised), but definitely harmless. A better alternative would have been "This guy should have been part of the drummer auditions" or something like that. But I definitely don't think he wants this drama to start up again, so I HIGHLY doubt anything was meant by it.
He may not have meant anything by it, but he certain know what the reaction would be by writing it - which is just as bad imo.
So MP shouldn't have posted that remark just because he knew that their might be some overly sensitive DT fans out there that might take what he said the wrong way? Please.. :\
I don't think MP should have to censor himself. But he knew 100% that there would be a negative reaction from a percentage of people. So he was poking the beehive so to speak, when he could have avoided doing so by just posting the video and saying something complimentary about the performer.
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Had the guy been doing a drum cover, I could have seen the comment as problematic, but, he is beatboxing. And DT would never have a beatboxer, no matter how amazing he his.
I know MP meant no disrespect to MM, but, he should know by now that some people will see it as "even a beatboxer is better than MM". I know MP did not mean that; he respects MM. But yeah, would have been better to say audition than replace but, it was not meant as a stab at MM.
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Yeah JPX, I'm pretty sure MP and MM are actually really cool with each other..
I remember seeing something that talked about them being buddies or something at least.
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I don't know... I'm currently REALLY happy with MM on drums and looking forward to a new whole level in DT's history, but at the same time MP is a great part of what made me love this band well over 10 years ago.
The thing is I voted NO, because my first point on MM and things like this (posted by MP on FB)
"OMG...this is BRILLIANT! My drum parts have a whole new flavor...THIS GUY should've been the one to take my place in DT!! hahaha : )
https://youtu.be/EkFNdi8gIMY"
Maybe you can say is really a tongue-in-cheek kind of post, but hey... even in MP's forum this kind of humor is forbidden. So, maybe you can't take that as a jab at MM but some people WILL and, at the end of the day, MP is (mostly unknowingly) generating more negativity towards him, which i might say, really saddens me.
I gotta go the other way on this... I am quite sure that it was NOT a jab at MM... it was simply MP making light of a situation he put himself in while complimenting this guys talent I think.
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From Facebook:
Luciano Casaroli in 30 minutes on a metal news website:
"Mike Portnoy says that beat boxer is better suited for Dream Theater than Mike Mangini."
Like · Reply · 373 · 13 hours ago
Hide 27 Replies
Mike Portnoy Haha I know....I do HOPE people realize I'm joking!!! My silly comment has NOTHING to do with MM and EVERYTHING to do with this brilliant video!! : )
Like · 450 · 13 hours ago
Clearly he meant nothing mean by it, but really, he should know by now that some people are just looking for an opportunity to take anything he says out of context. It's sad and he should not have to censor, but, he should anyways, just so he doesn't get disrespected. He's a great drummer and person. I love all the official DT bootlegs. I'll bet that would never have happened without MP. As with other fan driven DT content he produced.
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Yeah JPX, I'm pretty sure MP and MM are actually really cool with each other..
I remember seeing something that talked about them being buddies or something at least.
Oh I agree. Like I said, I think he just knew it would provoke a reaction. In no way do I think it was a jab at MM.
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I thought that comment was pretty funny. It's absurd that he can't even joke around anymore without being attacked...
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In Boston on the SDOIT tour, MM jumped up on stage during the set and played a dual drum solo with MP. That's when MP had the smaller set as well.
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In Boston on the SDOIT tour, MM jumped up on stage during the set and played a dual drum solo with MP. That's when MP had the smaller set as well.
Seriously? Is there video of this somewhere?
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In Boston on the SDOIT tour, MM jumped up on stage during the set and played a dual drum solo with MP. That's when MP had the smaller set as well.
Seriously? Is there video of this somewhere?
Audio recording: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFCaNWeXH9E . No video footage as far as I know.
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This comment is no big deal, but given how many "shots" he has taken since leaving the band, I guess some are gonna give Portnoy no leeway when it comes to what he said, even with innocuous ones like that. In other words, when you say as much as he does, and when a lot of it is a bit over the line, many are hesitant to give you the benefit of the doubt.
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some people will see it as "even a beatboxer is better than MM".
If anyone actually thinks that's what MP is saying, then they don't even deserve to have opinions.
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I honestly can't believe that "How MP meant that comment" is even a topic of discussion. I mean, come on!
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Rather they deserve to have their opinions marginalized like any ridiculous piece of text will(in most cases).
Good thing we can evaluate the validity of opinions.
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I don't think MP meant anything by it. That said, he should probably not quit his day job to become a diplomat.
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I don't think MP meant anything by it. That said, he should probably not quit his day job to become a diplomat.
I thought that being a diplomat is actually a day job??? :loser:
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A friend showed me that video yesterday and I said the same thing. I love Mangini, it's just a joke. People take things way too seriously.
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On one hand it was clearly a joke so people shouldn't be upset even though MP should always try to be a little more careful especially considering how he doesn't hesitate to talk shit about Blabbermouth for quoting him.
On the other hand, in all of the interviews he has done since leaving DT I can only remember ONE where he has said anything nice about Mangini. Of course he has never said anything bad but it's like he almost tries to avoid saying his name or admitting that DT has a kickass drummer. In fact, the one nice thing he said (to the best of my recollection) was "I knew they would get a great drummer". On the flipside, MM has praised the shit out of MP. It strikes me as very odd.
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I don't think it's that odd. Mangini was in a position where had to win over the affections of an established fanbase, and I'm sure emphatically praising the man he replaced, who was a fan favorite, went a long way toward that end. Portnoy, on the other hand, does not have to win the affections of the DT fans, and honestly most people would understand if he wasn't altogether too enthusiastic about praising the guy who replaced him.
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On the other hand, in all of the interviews he has done since leaving DT I can only remember ONE where he has said anything nice about Mangini. Of course he has never said anything bad but it's like he almost tries to avoid saying his name or admitting that DT has a kickass drummer. In fact, the one nice thing he said (to the best of my recollection) was "I knew they would get a great drummer". On the flipside, MM has praised the shit out of MP. It strikes me as very odd.
He has nothing to do with that band anymore, why does he have to say anything about what they're doing or what he thinks of Mangini? He has every right to avoid that topic.
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Well, MP still has a lot to learn about being " the bigger guy ". Being nice doesn't cost anything. Even if you don't mean it - it looks much better.
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I believe he said MM was an amazing drummer in an Eddie Trunk interview. I think Eddie asked him what he thought of the pick, and MP jokingly said something like "my mom said if you don't have anything nice to say about someone, don't say anything at all," but then said MM was an amazing drummer. It did sound like MP wasn't too crazy about answering that question, but I think he was right to leave it very short. It's a tough subject for him. On That Metal Show he said "to see DT without me breaks my heart." I think MP has been perfectly fine in his talk about MM. He hasn't said much at all really. But when asked directly, what he said was fine.
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This is no big deal. Actually, I think it is pretty funny.
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This is no big deal. Actually, I think it is pretty funny.
I agree except, I think Mike needs to distance himself from DT comments, good or bad unless he's talking about his time in it.
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I knew right away when I saw his post on Facebook that it would be majorly overreacted to :lol
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BREAKING NEWS: MIKE PORTNOY THINKS BEAT BOXER IS BETTER THAN MIKE MANGINI
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BREAKING NEWS: MIKE PORTNOY THINKS BEAT BOXER IS BETTER THAN MIKE MANGINI
Blabbermouth?
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BREAKING NEWS: MIKE PORTNOY THINKS BEAT BOXER IS BETTER THAN MIKE MANGINI
SHOCKING DEVELOPMENT : MIKE MANGINI CANNOT BEAT BOX ! :o :o :o
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BREAKING NEWS: MIKE PORTNOY THINKS BEAT BOXER IS BETTER THAN MIKE MANGINI
SHOCKING DEVELOPMENT : MIKE MANGINI CANNOT BEAT BOX ! :o :o :o
BAZAPA DOO GON' GIN! BONG RIPPI GANG GANG doyouragongbagong PING!
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I think that was just MM stepping on a lego in the studio barefoot.
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On the other hand, in all of the interviews he has done since leaving DT I can only remember ONE where he has said anything nice about Mangini. Of course he has never said anything bad but it's like he almost tries to avoid saying his name or admitting that DT has a kickass drummer. In fact, the one nice thing he said (to the best of my recollection) was "I knew they would get a great drummer". On the flipside, MM has praised the shit out of MP. It strikes me as very odd.
He has nothing to do with that band anymore, why does he have to say anything about what they're doing or what he thinks of Mangini? He has every right to avoid that topic.
*sigh*
I never said he has no right to avoid it. He has the right to remain silent and he even has a constitutional right to not allow soldiers being quartered in his home...but this isn't a discussion of "rights".
But Kotowboy pretty much covered it. MP could learn a thing or two about how Rob Halford handled questions about Ripper Owens when Ripper was in Judas Priest. You could almost sense he was gritting his teeth but he said nothing but nice things to say (except for one interview where the interviewer instigated shit and caught Rob off guard about some shitty misquoted things Ripper supposedly said).
MM on the other hand I totally understand him being over the top nice about MP. Very classy.
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You can't blame anyone that takes this comment serious considering the past events. And I don't even think it's funny, it's needless.
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Oh quitcherbitchin'. Seriously, MP can't make a little nudge? It's clear that he couldn't win most of you over if he wanted to, so why not entertain the people who still enjoy him?
:chill
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I think there was nothing wrong with that comment, and I don't see why MP shouldn't have made it. But I guess it figures that people who can't take a joke wouldn't like MP in the first place.
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It was probably mentioned on here before, but I think at this point people are just looking for reasons to take jabs at him.
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I don't think that's it at all. I just think a lot of people notice that even after 3 years MP is still talking about his position in his previous band.
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I don't think that's it at all. I just think a lot of people notice that even after 3 years MP is still talking about his position in his previous band.
Considering that he was a founding member and pretty much led the band for 25 years, is it really that surprising?
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Publicly? Yeah, that's surprising. I think that's really the crux, that he's doing it publicly.
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It doesn't help that people keep poking that beehive. If people stopped asking him about DT, he wouldn't be talking about them. Granted this latest statement wasn't from an interview or anything, but it wasn't a jab at the band so who cares?
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It doesn't help that people keep poking that beehive. If people stopped asking him about DT, he wouldn't be talking about them. Granted this latest statement wasn't from an interview or anything, but it wasn't a jab at the band so who cares?
Actually the reason why people keep asking is because he's the gift that keeps on giving.
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Hehe. well said
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It doesn't help that people keep poking that beehive. If people stopped asking him about DT, he wouldn't be talking about them. Granted this latest statement wasn't from an interview or anything, but it wasn't a jab at the band so who cares?
Well if the bees keep flying in our faces we are going to swat them away
#metaphorsarefun
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Yeah I mean if a married couple are having a picnic and then the ex comes and swats at a beehive, bees come it ruins the picnic, right?
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He's not swatting the beehive AT the picnic, though. It's not like he's posting that stuff on DT pages or anything. He just mentioned it. If a guy gets a divorce, and then he makes a joke on his facebook saying, "This guy should've married my ex wife, am I right?" Well, it's all in good humor.
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:marriageanalogy:
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OK, so if the couple is having a picnic and the ex shows up at the same park but not the same picnic shelter and the couple has spent a lot of time preparing a delicious meal that they don't bother coming up with a snazzy name for because they want to make a bold statement but the ex is wearing a bee costume because he is getting ready for a themed cruise but gives the impression that he is just joking but the married couple is really sensitive about bees because one of them is allergic....
ok, I think I had a good point when I started writing this
:marriageanalogy:
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This is getting ridiculous. He was simply complimenting the guy's insane beatbox skills, and people are wildly overreacting like Portnoy is actively slapping Mangini and Dream Theater in the face.
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I was just thinking about the whole argument of whether they should or shouldn't play the songs that MP wrote the lyrics to, and whatnot. And you know, this just occurred to me, (aside from TBOT which has very specific lyrics) any other song that MP wrote the lyrics to that were personal like the AA suite, or ACOS, even if you look at it as something that was MP's pride and joy, and having it without him is missing a key element, like Space-Dye Vest without Kevin Moore or Anna Lee without Derek, why not look at it in a different light.
I mean, MP was a founding member of the band and he's lead it for 25 years, so who's to say they can't play any given song that was personal to MP, and simply make it a tribute to him. He may not be the band's drummer anymore, but I don't see why they can't say, "This song is an ode to our former drummer who's seen this band through some tough times, here's The Shattered Fortress!" Or something of the sort.
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This is getting ridiculous. He was simply complimenting the guy's insane beatbox skills, and people are wildly overreacting like Portnoy is actively slapping Mangini and Dream Theater in the face.
While I agree with you that it was a compliment, Mike cannot bring anything DT into the conversation. It still comes off as sour grapes. He left.
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I mean, MP was a founding member of the band and he's lead it for 25 years, so who's to say they can't play any given song that was personal to MP, and simply make it a tribute to him. He may not be the band's drummer anymore, but I don't see why they can't say, "This song is an ode to our former drummer who's seen this band through some tough times, here's The Shattered Fortress!" Or something of the sort.
Pandoras box right there.
Can you imagine the headlines after that? DT dedicates a song to DT. Speculation of a DT/Portnoy reunion at an all time high. I have no doubt DT would avoid any type of reference to Portnoy like that unless he was really sick or dying or something.
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I was just thinking about the whole argument of whether they should or shouldn't play the songs that MP wrote the lyrics to, and whatnot. And you know, this just occurred to me, (aside from TBOT which has very specific lyrics) any other song that MP wrote the lyrics to that were personal like the AA suite, or ACOS, even if you look at it as something that was MP's pride and joy, and having it without him is missing a key element, like Space-Dye Vest without Kevin Moore or Anna Lee without Derek, why not look at it in a different light.
I mean, MP was a founding member of the band and he's lead it for 25 years, so who's to say they can't play any given song that was personal to MP, and simply make it a tribute to him. He may not be the band's drummer anymore, but I don't see why they can't say, "This song is an ode to our former drummer who's seen this band through some tough times, here's The Shattered Fortress!" Or something of the sort.
Why would it have to be a tribute? They could just play it.
I mean, songs that they never played live WITH MP (TBOT, TSF) - it would be weird to play those without him. But anything else is fair game. ACOS? Yes please. TGP? Bring it on. They are DT songs, no justification or apologies needed.
Hell, they still play songs with KM lyrics. What's the difference?
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Hef's post verbatim.
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Even TSF is still fair game in my mind. If they're gonna play TROAE, and they have, they can play the other 12 Step songs. Like Hef said, they play KM songs still, so what's the big deal?
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Even TSF is still fair game in my mind. If they're gonna play TROAE, and they have, they can play the other 12 Step songs. Like Hef said, they play KM songs still, so what's the big deal?
I guess it would be fair game, it would just be kind of weird, and I don't know what the point of playing that song alone would be.
I'm just guessing, but I would bet that they would only be interested in TGP, TDS, and TROAE from the 12-steps suite. Not sure why they would want to play the other 2, ever.
But if they did, hey, that's their business.
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Even TSF is still fair game in my mind. If they're gonna play TROAE, and they have, they can play the other 12 Step songs. Like Hef said, they play KM songs still, so what's the big deal?
I agree that TSF is completely fair game, but I'd rather they play any of the other 12SS songs before playing TSF, and I don't think that song will ever be high on their setlist priorities.
But they need to play TGP because I said so.
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But they need to play TGP because I said so.
:tup
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Even TSF is still fair game in my mind. If they're gonna play TROAE, and they have, they can play the other 12 Step songs. Like Hef said, they play KM songs still, so what's the big deal?
I guess it would be fair game, it would just be kind of weird, and I don't know what the point of playing that song alone would be.
I'm just guessing, but I would bet that they would only be interested in TGP, TDS, and TROAE from the 12-steps suite. Not sure why they would want to play the other 2, ever.
But if they did, hey, that's their business.
I understand Repentance isn't really a live song, but TSF is pretty awesome. I guess you don't like either of them, but I get what you mean. The other songs do work really well as stand alone songs, but the last two kinda need to be played with the entire suite. And yeah, playing the entire suite without MP would be weird which is why I'm up for a one off thing to get a live version of the 12 Step Suite with MP.
The only songs I feel they shouldn't ever play live are:
The Best of Times (Personal MP lyrics aside, it would be a waste of concert time in my opinion)
Space Dye Vest (I've grown to like the song more, but same as above. I don't think the lyrics are THAT personal to KM)
I'm really not sure why Anne Lee couldn't be played. James wrote those lyrics, and even if DS wrote all the music, it's still a DT song.
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I understand Repentance isn't really a live song, but TSF is pretty awesome. I guess you don't like either of them, but I get what you mean. The other songs do work really well as stand alone songs, but the last two kinda need to be played with the entire suite.
That's really all I meant. I actually like TSF, even though it wasn't quite what I hoped it would be.
Space Dye Vest (I've grown to like the song more, but same as above. I don't think the lyrics are THAT personal to KM)
I think it would be strange to play it now, since they never have. But I don't have a real problem with them playing it.
I'm really not sure why Anne Lee couldn't be played. James wrote those lyrics, and even if DS wrote all the music, it's still a DT song.
I agree wholeheartedly, and I would love to see it return to their setlists, especially since they are returning to their Evening With format and will have more room to include more songs than in the recent past.
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I understand Repentance isn't really a live song, but TSF is pretty awesome. I guess you don't like either of them, but I get what you mean. The other songs do work really well as stand alone songs, but the last two kinda need to be played with the entire suite.
That's really all I meant. I actually like TSF, even though it wasn't quite what I hoped it would be.
Space Dye Vest (I've grown to like the song more, but same as above. I don't think the lyrics are THAT personal to KM)
I think it would be strange to play it now, since they never have. But I don't have a real problem with them playing it.
I'm really not sure why Anne Lee couldn't be played. James wrote those lyrics, and even if DS wrote all the music, it's still a DT song.
I agree wholeheartedly, and I would love to see it return to their setlists, especially since they are returning to their Evening With format and will have more room to include more songs than in the recent past.
(https://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k34/Zook85/tupheart.png)
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I LOVE YOU ZOOK
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I LOVE YOU ZOOK
(https://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k34/Zook85/Roger_love.jpg)
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All songs except probably TBoT-- which I highly doubt will ever be played live-- are fair game. They are fair game on any given day, without pre-clearance from MP, without explanation, without being tributary, and without any justification since they are DT songs. They could even play the entire 12 step suite, followed by Never Enough in one night's show and it would be entirely valid legally and morally okay.
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All songs except probably TBoT-- which I highly doubt will ever be played live-- are fair game. They are fair game on any given day, without pre-clearance from MP, without explanation, without being tributary, and without any justification since they are DT songs. They could even play the entire 12 step suite in a show and it would be entirely valid legally and morally.
Technically that's true, but with certain songs it may be a tad awkward. Hell, even TBOT is fair game, it'd just be AWKWARD.
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All songs except probably TBoT-- which I highly doubt will ever be played live-- are fair game. They are fair game on any given day, without pre-clearance from MP, without explanation, without being tributary, and without any justification since they are DT songs. They could even play the entire 12 step suite in a show and it would be entirely valid legally and morally.
Technically that's true, but with certain songs it may be a tad awkward. Hell, even TBOT is fair game, it'd just be AWKWARD.
Yeah, TBOT would be awkward, since the lyrics are so specifically about MP and his father. While the 12SS is about something pretty close to MP, the lyrics are general enough to not be an issue at all imo.
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All songs except probably TBoT-- which I highly doubt will ever be played live-- are fair game. They are fair game on any given day, without pre-clearance from MP, without explanation, without being tributary, and without any justification since they are DT songs. They could even play the entire 12 step suite in a show and it would be entirely valid legally and morally.
Technically that's true, but with certain songs it may be a tad awkward. Hell, even TBOT is fair game, it'd just be AWKWARD.
See, I sorta make one exception for TBoT. The band could play that song legally, but I would say it just would not be right. Obviously everyone knows the deeply personal subject matter, and in some people's minds, that alone is enough reason not to play it. But the whole reason that song did not get played live is that MP was not ready to play it. When asked about it in an interview, he said that he wasn't ready because the song brought back all these memories of playing it for his dad in the hospital, and crying and the funeral. He said he would likely one day play it, but that he was not ready. Clearly this song means something on a personal level that no other song does. And for the band to come out and play it without him and to basically declare "okay, THIS is the time to play it" is in my mind morally questionable. I don' think this will happen though. As far as I can tell, there isn't a whole lot of demand for that song to be played live, and even if there were, I think it would just create too much drama and controversy. Plus, I just don't think they would do it because they'd think it not right.
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Maybe if they ever resurrect Nightmare Cinema, they could play it as "The Worst of Songs" ;D
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I wonder what the Portnoy fanboys who complain about DT playing one of his songs would say if MP covered a DT song in TA, WD or FC that he didn't write ?
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He kinda did that already. Didn't one of his groups do Lines In The Sand? That's one of Petrucci's.
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He kinda did that already. Didn't one of his groups do Lines In The Sand? That's one of Petrucci's.
PSMS did purely instrumental covers of ACOS and LITS, since Sherinian and Portnoy both wrote music for them. They left the lyrics out though.
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Why would it have to be a tribute? They could just play it.
I mean, songs that they never played live WITH MP (TBOT, TSF) - it would be weird to play those without him. But anything else is fair game. ACOS? Yes please. TGP? Bring it on. They are DT songs, no justification or apologies needed.
Hell, they still play songs with KM lyrics. What's the difference?
You're right. My point is that playing songs that MP wrote the lyrics to shouldn't constitute as "oh, they're playing HIS songs, and those songs were personal to him so they shouldn't play them". It should constitute as "These guys value what MP did for the band, and playing those songs only proves that they acknowledge that."
Frankly, I don't think TSF should be off limits either. I don't see why it would be weird.
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I agree with what most people have said. He wrote the lyrics for Dream Theater, the music was written by people who are still in Dream Theater, and they are on Dream Theater albums. I do think it would be awkward to play TBOT or the entire 12SS, but I think any of the individual 12SS songs are fair game (I think TSF would be awesome live, actually). ACOS is also fair game because, unlike TBOT, 1) they played it back when MP was in the band and 2) the lyrics are a lot more general than TBOT which are exceedingly personal.
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Maybe it's just me, but I would find it really weird if DT premiered TSF live without MP.
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" We got a new song to play tonight, yeahhhhh. "
YEAAAHHHHHH
" Alright - BU-OD-KAN !!!! This one goes out to anyone in the crowd with their Dad toniiiiiiiiiiight ! "
YEEEAAHHHH !!!!
" The Best OF Fucking Tiiiiiiiimes ! "
Petrucci starts the 16th note flurry in the intro to TBOT.
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I think DT have shown by playing The Root of All Evil that the 12-step songs are fair game. Repentance and TSF probably make more sense as part of the suite proper, and I'd be willing to bet the band isn't interested in playing them live at this point (though that may just be wishful thinking on my part since I don't really like those songs). There's no reason they couldn't play ACOS, and I honestly think we'll be hearing it sooner rather than later since it's been so long since they've played it.
The mere fact that so many people on this board would be uncomfortable with the band playing TBOT indicates that they probably shouldn't play it, I think.
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" We got a new song to play tonight, yeahhhhh. "
YEAAAHHHHHH
" Alright - BU-OD-KAN !!!! This one goes out to anyone in the crowd with their Dad toniiiiiiiiiiight ! "
YEEEAAHHHH !!!!
" The Best OF Fucking Tiiiiiiiimes ! "
Petrucci starts the 16th note flurry in the intro to TBOT.
I love it.
If they just went the Paul Stanley route, then any song is free game!
"Peeeeeeeople, anyone out there tonight have a rock n' roll fammmmmily?!
How about a rock n' roll dad?
Well we know that you guys wanna have a rock n' roll family reunion so grab your dads and sing along to the Best of TIIIIIIMES!!!"
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Evening With shows probably mean that there is more chance of seeing long songs like Octavarium or ACOS. :)
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How does a comment like that even jokingly come up in a conversation? Seems like it might have been passive-aggressively malicious.
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ACOS is also fair game because, unlike TBOT, 1) they played it back when MP was in the band and 2) the lyrics are a lot more general than TBOT which are exceedingly personal.
The point isn't even so much that it's personal, but that it's addressing MP's father directly. It's not, "Me and my father did this and that, and I love my father and thank him for everything," it's, "Dad, me and you did this and this, and I love you and thank you for everything." That's ultimately what changes the context of the song, I think.
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That's a good point that I'm sure adds to it, but Another Day is addressed to JP's father and it's not seen as one of those extremely personal songs. So I think it's the combination of what you said and the fact that the lyrics to TBOT could not be about anyone else than Mike and his father where AD could be about just about anyone who has a loved one battling some kind of debilitating illness.
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That's a good point that I'm sure adds to it, but Another Day is addressed to JP's father and it's not seen as one of those extremely personal songs. So I think it's the combination of what you said and the fact that the lyrics to TBOT could not be about anyone else than Mike and his father where AD could be about just about anyone who has a loved one battling some kind of debilitating illness.
Yeah, that's true. I can see anyone going, "This song resonates with me so much. I remember when my dad was going through the same thing, and I hoped he'd try another day." Or heck, it doesn't even have to be about a father.
Whereas with TBOT, it's like, "This song resonates with me... I remember lying on the pillows at the old 8 12.... Wait... What?"
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Yeah, it's hard to relate to the lyrics of TBOT because they're so specifically about MP and his dad. For example, I have been to record shops, but I haven't tasted stick bone meals :neverusethis:
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Yeah, it's hard to relate to the lyrics of TBOT because they're so specifically about MP and his dad. For example, I have been to record shops, but I haven't tasted stick bone meals :neverusethis:
Well, first half, anyway. Once the slow part starts, it's plenty relatable, I think. The whole, "Thank you for the inspiration, thank you for the smiles" part. But yeah, obviously they're not gonna play a song starting at the halfway point.
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I would say any song they played live with MP is fair game. That means no TBOT and no Shattered Fortress. Which makes sense. They never played Space Dye Vest (except for that one event with James and Jordan).
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I still don't understand why TSF is off limits. Just because they never played it live. I mean, it's still a part of the 12 Step Suite. I just don't see how whether they played it with MP or not makes any kind of a difference.
Space-Dye Vest is a very different issue, because it's well known that Moore pretty much composed it entirely by himself.
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^^ all of this. Although I'd kill to see SDV live nonetheless.
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^^ all of this. Although I'd kill to see SDV live nonetheless.
And I'd kill myself if I had to see SDV live. :P
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^^ all of this. Although I'd kill to see SDV live nonetheless.
And I'd kill myself if I had to see SDV live. :P
LOL can feel ya mate
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^^ all of this. Although I'd kill to see SDV live nonetheless.
And I'd kill myself if I had to see SDV live. :P
Your opinions on anything DT related are so wrong :P
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^^ all of this. Although I'd kill to see SDV live nonetheless.
And I'd kill myself if I had to see SDV live. :P
Your opinions on anything DT related are so wrong :P
Lucky for me everything I say is FACT instead! :biggrin:
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^^ all of this. Although I'd kill to see SDV live nonetheless.
And I'd kill myself if I had to see SDV live. :P
Blob, how can we have such similar tastes in DT and then you break my heart with that statement? :|
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^^ all of this. Although I'd kill to see SDV live nonetheless.
And I'd kill myself if I had to see SDV live. :P
Blob, how can we have such similar tastes in DT and then you break my heart with that statement? :|
Consider yourself lucky we even got that far. :lol That's more than most!
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Blob, how can we have such similar tastes in DT and then you break my heart with that statement? :|
Consider yourself lucky we even got that far. :lol That's more than most!
It's fine. I'll just grow a new heart. :lol
It's funny because up until a few weeks ago I would have 100% agreed with you, but Awake has recently clicked with me and SDV is definitely one of my favorites off that album.
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I'm sure Blob shares your love for Scarred at least ;)
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Actually, I'm still not sold on Scarred.
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Actually, I'm still not sold on Scarred.
That's ok, aprilethereal was using just a *touch* of sarcasm there. :lol
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The first show of this tour DT should open with SDV then play the entire AA suite then play the new album all the way through. This way they could end all conversations and speculation about these songs being played live. Not that DT cares, but for the sake of the interwebs.
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Actually, I'm still not sold on Scarred.
Oh my..... :faint:
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Actually, I'm still not sold on Scarred.
Oh my..... :faint:
I would be even more worried if she wasn't sold on SDV.
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The first show of this tour DT should open with SDV then play the entire AA suite then play the new album all the way through. This way they could end all conversations and speculation about these songs being played live. Not that DT cares, but for the sake of the interwebs.
Encore: TBOT and ACOS.
What? It could happen!
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Actually, I'm still not sold on Scarred.
Oh my..... :faint:
I would be even more worried if she wasn't sold on SDV.
Notice I said "still not sold on." I fully expect it'll click with me at some point. xD Or maybe it won't and I'll be like Blob who just hates it.
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What, Blob hates it?!? ;)
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Actually, I'm still not sold on Scarred.
Oh my..... :faint:
I would be even more worried if she wasn't sold on SDV.
Notice I said "still not sold on." I fully expect it'll click with me at some point. xD Or maybe it won't and I'll be like Blob who just hates it.
I'm only teasing. 'Scarred' seems to be a love it or hate it song with hardly anyone just 'liking' it. I think James sounds great in it and I love the lyrics.
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Notice I said "still not sold on." I fully expect it'll click with me at some point. xD Or maybe it won't and I'll be like Blob who just hates it.
I'm only teasing. 'Scarred' seems to be a love it or hate it song with hardly anyone just 'liking' it. I think James sounds great in it and I love the lyrics.
Ah. I get tripped up by teasing/sarcasm on the internet. I've gotten so trained to look for green text that I take everyone else completely seriously. :loser:
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Blob, how can we have such similar tastes in DT and then you break my heart with that statement? :|
Consider yourself lucky we even got that far. :lol That's more than most!
It's fine. I'll just grow a new heart. :lol
Here's a new heart for you:
(https://4.bp.blogspot.com/_xH0S_vTP8e8/TIi3qOoN2XI/AAAAAAAAAsg/9Sied3GyGLM/s320/DreamTheaterHEART.jpg)
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It's fine. I'll just grow a new heart. :lol
Here's a new heart for you:
(https://4.bp.blogspot.com/_xH0S_vTP8e8/TIi3qOoN2XI/AAAAAAAAAsg/9Sied3GyGLM/s320/DreamTheaterHEART.jpg)
Perfect! That's exactly what I need! :biggrin:
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I felt like Luna Park was missing something crucial >_> ...... I wonder what it was .....
...
..
:P
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I felt like Luna Park was missing something crucial >_> ...... I wonder what it was .....
...
..
:P
A timely release?
Yeah, I agree.
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^^ all of this. Although I'd kill to see SDV live nonetheless.
And I'd kill myself if I had to see SDV live. :P
Could you at least wait until after the song so everyone else can enjoy it?
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I felt like Luna Park was missing something crucial >_> ...... I wonder what it was .....
...
..
:P
A timely release?
Yeah, I agree.
Yeah that too... But something else!! ;) haha!
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Moodier lighting and a better crowd.
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^^ all of this. Although I'd kill to see SDV live nonetheless.
And I'd kill myself if I had to see SDV live. :P
Could you at least wait until after the song so everyone else can enjoy it?
What would be the fun in that? :lol
And I'm not sure I could hold out that long. :P
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^^ all of this. Although I'd kill to see SDV live nonetheless.
And I'd kill myself if I had to see SDV live. :P
Could you at least wait until after the song so everyone else can enjoy it?
What would be the fun in that? :lol
And I'm not sure I could hold out that long. :P
Kevin would want you to be open because he can't.
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Killing yourself during Never Enough would be more logical due to the lyrics in the first verse and the quality of the song :P
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Killing yourself during Never Enough would be more logical due to the lyrics in the first verse and the quality of the song :P
T H I S
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Never Enough is a great song dammit :P
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Never Enough is a great song dammit :P
Mike?
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Only if Mike dislikes TBOT nowadays.
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Only if Mike dislikes TBOT nowadays.
Clearly this is a possibility.
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After DT recorded this last album, I want Mike to return.
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You know MP was the biggest fan of the "evil" metal riffs you've been complaining about?
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After DT recorded this last album, I want Mike to stay out of the band even more than I did before. ;)
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You know MP was the biggest fan of the "evil" metal riffs you've been complaining about?
What's the problem with evil metal riffs?
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After DT recorded this last album, I want Mike to stay out of the band even more than I did before. ;)
Yeah, I can't say I ever wanted MP to leave DT, I really love the guy. But DT12 was great IMO, so after hearing that, I'm perfectly content with DT how they are now....
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You know MP was the biggest fan of the "evil" metal riffs you've been complaining about?
What's the problem with evil metal riffs?
Ask Rhayader :P
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You know MP was the biggest fan of the "evil" metal riffs you've been complaining about?
What's the problem with evil metal riffs?
Ask Rhayader :P
If you're not into metal, you are not my friend! :metal
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Well, at least I like metal :letam: :2metal: :metal
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If you're not into metal, you are not my friend! :metal
:metal Heavy Metal! Or no Metal at all! Wimps and posers, leave the hall! :metal
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After DT recorded this last album, I want Portnoy to stay out of the band even more than I did before. ;)
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You know MP was the biggest fan of the "evil" metal riffs you've been complaining about?
I don't think he is the only one. He is not in the band anymore and Petrucci keeps doing it. And don't get me wrong, I never said I hated evil riffs. I love it. In fact, I love Opeth. The albums I like the least are actually Damnation and Heritage, the most calm ones. I like the evil riffs of Opeth, but it doesn't match Dream Theater. It is ok for DT to make evil riffs, but not on all songs and all albums. If you want to know what I want from DT, listen to I&W until Six Degrees. After that, is the "evil riff era". Even worse is Labrie trying to sing like a badboy to these riffs.
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You know MP was the biggest fan of the "evil" metal riffs you've been complaining about?
I don't think he is the only one. He is not in the band anymore and Petrucci keeps doing it. And don't get me wrong, I never said I hated evil riffs. I love it. In fact, I love Opeth. The albums I like the least are actually Damnation and Heritage, the most calm ones. I like the evil riffs of Opeth, but it doesn't match Dream Theater. It is ok for DT to make evil riffs, but not on all songs and all albums. If you want to know what I want from DT, listen to I&W until Six Degrees. After that, is the "evil riff era". Even worse is Labrie trying to sing like a badboy to these riffs.
? I was generally under the impression MP was the one who wanted James to sing like that.
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Could you give an example of an "evil riff"? :huh:
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Could you give an example of an "evil riff"? :huh:
Just gonna go out on a limb here and say something like from behind the veil?
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Could you give an example of an "evil riff"? :huh:
One that when played backwards makes you want to kill the dog.
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Could you give an example of an "evil riff"? :huh:
One that when played backwards makes you want to kill the dog.
The raw one?
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Could you give an example of an "evil riff"? :huh:
One that when played backwards makes you want to kill the dog.
The raw one?
Is that an evil riff?
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I will say I miss Portnoy writing music that's in the progressive vein of DT stuff. His latest projects are most excellent and all, but I'd love to hear him back in the mode I've always been fond of. But the great thing about where he's at now in his career, is that anything is possible and he has a million different paths to choose from. In a lot of ways, I like him as much where he's at now in his career as much as when he was with DT. Kinda like a kid moving out of their parents house. You don't want him to leave, but at the same time you want him to go out and experience everything else and see what he accomplishes.
Agreed, well said
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On the evil riff note, I haven't heard anything really evil to me since MP leaving. TEM may come close, but to me that has a YYZ or Erotomania/Ytsejam vibe that makes it not heavy evil.
To me, the glaring evil parts/riffs are Panic Attacks riff before the band drops out and JP plays the big riff, and ANTR, the riff in the blast beat part. And ANTR bit is evil more due to the sum of the parts IMO.
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After DT recorded this last album, I want Mike to stay out of the band even more than I did before. ;)
Yeah, I can't say I ever wanted MP to leave DT, I really love the guy. But DT12 was great IMO, so after hearing that, I'm perfectly content with DT how they are now....
Basically this except i would go further and say that I am more than content with where they are. With MP, I never wanted him to leave and the thought never even crossed my mind. With BC&SL, I was still a pretty diehard fan. Owned all the Ytsejam releases, would see them once per tour, bought the album the day it came out, but my fandom wasn't growing.
Since the documentary of the process of picking MM was released, I have become a bigger fan than I ever have and listened to ADTOE constantly. With the release of DT12, I just haven't gotten into it much even though I can't name but a few things "wrong" with it. After listening to LALP (and driving nearly 3 hours to see it on the big screen) I feel like I did after ADTOE came out. Just 20 minutes ago as I pulled into my garage I considered pulling back out and putting on DT12 because LALP put me in the mood but alas, I'm damn tired.
Either way, considering everything MP has done since he left DT, I don't think there is anything he or the band could do that would put me in that great of a mood about the band. I would probably continue buying all the Ytsejam stuff, seeing them once a tour, etc. I'm happier the way things turned out.
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I will say I miss Portnoy writing music that's in the progressive vein of DT stuff. His latest projects are most excellent and all, but I'd love to hear him back in the mode I've always been fond of. But the great thing about where he's at now in his career, is that anything is possible and he has a million different paths to choose from. In a lot of ways, I like him as much where he's at now in his career as much as when he was with DT. Kinda like a kid moving out of their parents house. You don't want him to leave, but at the same time you want him to go out and experience everything else and see what he accomplishes.
Agreed, well said
I just wish he'd move into a new house permanently though. I mean, all these side projects are nice, and it's cool that he seems to be treading all corners of prog and metal, but honestly, I wish he'd stick with at least one band or project for more than just one studio release. He was great in DT largely because of how much of his own time and effort he put into it. I want to see him put that much time and effort into a different project. Just really work out the music and the orchestrations a little more meticulously and make them into something truly great. I think if he did that, it'd be so much greater than Flying Colors, or Winery Dogs, or anything else he's done lately.
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I will say I miss Portnoy writing music that's in the progressive vein of DT stuff. His latest projects are most excellent and all, but I'd love to hear him back in the mode I've always been fond of. But the great thing about where he's at now in his career, is that anything is possible and he has a million different paths to choose from. In a lot of ways, I like him as much where he's at now in his career as much as when he was with DT. Kinda like a kid moving out of their parents house. You don't want him to leave, but at the same time you want him to go out and experience everything else and see what he accomplishes.
Agreed, well said
I just wish he'd move into a new house permanently though. I mean, all these side projects are nice, and it's cool that he seems to be treading all corners of prog and metal, but honestly, I wish he'd stick with at least one band or project for more than just one studio release. He was great in DT largely because of how much of his own time and effort he put into it. I want to see him put that much time and effort into a different project. Just really work out the music and the orchestrations a little more meticulously and make them into something truly great. I think if he did that, it'd be so much greater than Flying Colors, or Winery Dogs, or anything else he's done lately.
I don't think he'll be doing that though, seems like he doesn't want to actually sit down and be with one band after having done that for basically his whole life. I'm actually not sure if I'd want that myself too, because he has spurred many ideas which he could have maybe, but not certainly, done while being with just one band.
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I will say I miss Portnoy writing music that's in the progressive vein of DT stuff. His latest projects are most excellent and all, but I'd love to hear him back in the mode I've always been fond of. But the great thing about where he's at now in his career, is that anything is possible and he has a million different paths to choose from. In a lot of ways, I like him as much where he's at now in his career as much as when he was with DT. Kinda like a kid moving out of their parents house. You don't want him to leave, but at the same time you want him to go out and experience everything else and see what he accomplishes.
Agreed, well said
I just wish he'd move into a new house permanently though. I mean, all these side projects are nice, and it's cool that he seems to be treading all corners of prog and metal, but honestly, I wish he'd stick with at least one band or project for more than just one studio release. He was great in DT largely because of how much of his own time and effort he put into it. I want to see him put that much time and effort into a different project. Just really work out the music and the orchestrations a little more meticulously and make them into something truly great. I think if he did that, it'd be so much greater than Flying Colors, or Winery Dogs, or anything else he's done lately.
Why do Transatlantic and Flying Colors not count? Those both seem pretty ongoing bands.
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I will say I miss Portnoy writing music that's in the progressive vein of DT stuff. His latest projects are most excellent and all, but I'd love to hear him back in the mode I've always been fond of. But the great thing about where he's at now in his career, is that anything is possible and he has a million different paths to choose from. In a lot of ways, I like him as much where he's at now in his career as much as when he was with DT. Kinda like a kid moving out of their parents house. You don't want him to leave, but at the same time you want him to go out and experience everything else and see what he accomplishes.
Agreed, well said
I just wish he'd move into a new house permanently though. I mean, all these side projects are nice, and it's cool that he seems to be treading all corners of prog and metal, but honestly, I wish he'd stick with at least one band or project for more than just one studio release. He was great in DT largely because of how much of his own time and effort he put into it. I want to see him put that much time and effort into a different project. Just really work out the music and the orchestrations a little more meticulously and make them into something truly great. I think if he did that, it'd be so much greater than Flying Colors, or Winery Dogs, or anything else he's done lately.
Why do Transatlantic and Flying Colors not count? Those both seem pretty ongoing bands.
I don't think that getting together for an album and a short tour every few years with people from other bands is what he had in mind. Neither Transatlantic, nor Flying Colors were the main band for any of their members. While Transatlantic has existed for one an a half decade, with a 4th studio album on its way, it still looks more like a project than an actual band.
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No.
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I don't think that getting together for an album and a short tour every few years with people from other bands is what he had in mind. Neither Transatlantic, nor Flying Colors were the main band for any of their members. While Transatlantic has existed for one an a half decade, with a 4th studio album on its way, it still looks more like a project than an actual band.
Agreed. Given what prolific writers Neal and Roine both are, if Transatlantic were an "ongoing band" and not a project, we'd be getting an album from them nearly every year, not having a four-year gap with nothing new by them.
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Right, basically all of that. I would just really like to see what would happen if MP put the kind of energy he did into DT, into another band, and really focused on it and gave it that sort of treatment. Right now, it seems a lot more about the quantity of projects he's doing, and frankly, I think he spread himself a little thin, which was why he had to quit Adrenalin Mob in the first place. And yeah, I think a big part of the problem is that most of these projects are supergroups, which means a lot of these musicians have their "main" band that they mostly dedicated to. Not only that, but being established musicians, means that ultimately, the direction of the music is being driven by them. He even said that about Adrenalin Mob, that a lot of the music was already written and the direction of the band was already established before he came on board.
I would really like to see a brand new band, with MP and a bunch of less established musicians, with him having the majority of the creative control. Just his new 'baby' in a sense.
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I think it's gotta be hard to maintain creative control when you are not much of a music writer (assuming what is commonly known is true, that he excels at arranging songs and constructing album running orders and whatnot, but not so much the writing of the actual music).
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The problem is, and the different projects have really shown that, as a drummer there's only so much creative influence you can have. Mike pimped AM really hard, and he drew on all the experience he gained with DT, but in the end the project was marred by the lack of good songs. On the other hand, Flying Colors took off, simply because Neal Morse and Steve Morse wrote some really good stuff (and so did Neal Morse and Roine Stolt in TA). MP is probably a good "director", but if the raw ingredients aren't there, there's nothing you can do. As they say, you can't polish a turd.
And that will remain the challenge for him for future project. I don't think he realized how lucky he was to have such an excellent songwriter as JP in DT.
EDIT: Gnah, ninja'd by Kev!
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Well, either way, all I'm saying is that while I enjoyed all his recent side projects, I think they were really good at best, but frankly, I wasn't all that impressed, and was over them after 2 or 3 listens.
I don't know if MP thinks this is all great, amazing music, or if he's just having laid back fun with it all, but I think if he did have creative control over a band, he could use his experience at arranging, constructing, producing etc. to steer the music in a very awesome direction.
Like, I'm happy to support MP's current projects, but I miss hearing MP unleashed to the utmost of his own creative freedom as a drummer.
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Well, either way, all I'm saying is that while I enjoyed all his recent side projects, I think they were really good at best, but frankly, I wasn't all that impressed, and was over them after 2 or 3 listens.
I don't know if MP thinks this is all great, amazing music, or if he's just having laid back fun with it all, but I think if he did have creative control over a band, he could use his experience at arranging, constructing, producing etc. to steer the music in a very awesome direction.
Like, I'm happy to support MP's current projects, but I miss hearing MP unleashed to the utmost of his own creative freedom as a drummer.
But isn't that what he wanted to take a break from.
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But isn't that what he wanted to take a break from.
I always thought it was Dream Theater specifically. Being around the same people for so many years and feeling like he was obligated to record/tour/record/tour every year. Which is understandable, but if he was surrounded by a whole new set of people, that problem shouldn't exist, should it?
Besides, he already asked DT if he could come back, so even if he felt a little suffocated by THEM, that period is clearly over.
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Well, either way, all I'm saying is that while I enjoyed all his recent side projects, I think they were really good at best, but frankly, I wasn't all that impressed, and was over them after 2 or 3 listens.
I don't know if MP thinks this is all great, amazing music, or if he's just having laid back fun with it all, but I think if he did have creative control over a band, he could use his experience at arranging, constructing, producing etc. to steer the music in a very awesome direction.
Like, I'm happy to support MP's current projects, but I miss hearing MP unleashed to the utmost of his own creative freedom as a drummer.
I think MP is really excited by the Winery Dogs. Their success has been far beyond what anyone could have predicted. They've been playing a number of sold out shows for months now. For a random 3 piece band that wouldn't have existed had Eddie Trunk not suggested Kotzen, I think that's amazing. I think it's highly possible MP has found a home in WD (if not FC as well), should they be able to put out a strong follow-up album. I've seen them twice now-- and FC once-- and they are VERY good. They have great songs-- every one has a strong hook. If they can put out a solid second album, I think they will have something with longevity. They certainly have the lineup.
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I'm not a huge fan of The Winery Dogs, but I'm glad Mike has found something that he may be able to stick with.
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I do think he's going to stay in The Winery Dogs and perhaps have them running full-time in the future. I mean, at the moment he's focused on the band, but it will be left aside in the future... I don't really know what his plans are, I would guess that for FC2's tour, but then there will be time for The Winery Dogs again and, as said, if the following album is as well received (just as the tour) as the first one, he might be sticking with TWD and leave the other bands as side-projects. Which makes me sad, though, because out of all of what he has done since he left DT, FC is the only project I actually like (I didn't really like TWD, they're objectively good, but not my cup of tea), but FC was always meant to be a side-project and not a full time band, so I guess I'll have to deal with that.
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I'm not sure I see the longevity of TWD to be honest. Billy Sheehan and Richie Kotzen have been in a ton of other stuff and have done a lot of solo, and especially Billy has played in front of enormous stadiums. I can see Billy and Richie doing their own thing at some point again.
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That's a good point, too. I'm not really cheering for it to be the main focus of all three of them in any case, since I'm not in love with the music, but I do feel there's a certain sense of chemistry and musical belonging from all the members. I don't see a reason why they would call it quits, unless something really time consuming and that promises a lot more success than TWD (that one would be hard to find) comes up. I think that, even if they went back to doing solo stuff or to other projects, they would keep getting back to TWD every now and then.
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I would tend to say no.
But after the disappointment I had watching the "Live at Luna Park" blu-ray (this lack of punch, it's really dramatic...), I have to say I'm not so sure.
MM for studio albums, but MP for the live shows, is it possible ??? ;D
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after watching Live at Luna Park, I'd like Portnoy's drumset to be back in dream theater. I tolerated the two albums but mangini's drums have no power on this dvd
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After a while with DT12, I definitely miss Mike Portnoy. I love Mangini, but Portnoy is just a more special drummer and more essential part of the DT sound to me. As for whether I want him back... I would only want him back if his heart was fully in it and if he reconciled with James and John Myung.
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I prefer Mike Portnoys style of drumming and drum fills to Mike Mangini...and this to me has become more apparent on DT 12.As much as ive tried to like what MM has done..and ive given it over a month of daily listening,i still think MP has a better feel for the prog side of Dream Theater than MM.That said..i wouldnt want the heavy metal thrash and the devil roars that MP insisted on doing.
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I don't see a reason why they would call it quits, unless something really time consuming and that promises a lot more success than TWD (that one would be hard to find) comes up.
Maybe not more successful, but there will be a new TA and a new FC coming out, both of which will necessitate a tour. I think it will be hard to juggle those 3 projects.
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I don't think he's coming back any time soon, but I really miss his stage presence in DT. My wife hates DT, but I put on the Score DVD the other day and she said: "Now that Mike's gone, who can give those nerds some balls and mojo?". While she was obviouslu exaggerating, I think she has a point. MP's drumming has a much more distinctive sound than MM's, at least in.my book.
And yeah, the only guys she knows by name in DT are Petrucci and James, whose voice she absolutely can't stand. But I took her to see The Winery Dogs a few months back and she loved MP.
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I don't think he's coming back any time soon, but I really miss his stage presence in DT. My wife hates DT, but I put on the Score DVD the other day and she said: "Now that Mike's gone, who can give those nerds some balls and mojo?". While she was obviouslu exaggerating, I think she has a point. MP's drumming has a much more distinctive sound than MM's, at least in.my book.
And yeah, the only guys she knows by name in DT are Petrucci and James, whose voice she absolutely can't stand. But I took her to see The Winery Dogs a few months back and she loved MP.
I think this story sorta highlights one of the things I wanted to say about the entire question the OP brought up. MP was an iconic figure in this band. Everyone knows all of the things he did in and for the band since the beginning, but ultimately he was an iconic person. And when you take that sorta person out of a brand/band you associate him with, people will understandably think that something is missing.
I always think about Guns N Roses as a similar thing. Slash was an iconic musician in that band. He had a particular sound and a look-- MP has his own look too, btw. It's easy to understand why millions of fans don't care about the new Guns N Roses without him. Even if Bumblefoot came showed that he was 10x the guitarist, he is still not Slash. Anyone who had some familiarity with GnR knew who Slash was and if you saw them live during the Chinese Democracy tour, you'd instantly notice the tall guy with a top hat, cool shades, long hair, and chains who has been associated with this band for decades was not there. And it's a similar thing with Rob Halford and JD as well.
I totally get why people would miss MP.
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MP was/is certainly iconic, but at the end I felt he no longer fit into the band all that much. Just even looks-wise, he's going more for the "trucker joint" look with all his tattoos.
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I agree on that. In my perspective, MM is a lot more of a better fit to DT than MP, or at least than MP over the last years, and I mean that more in the personality aspect than musically, although it is also true for the latter. Every single member of the band adores MM and if at any point the band chemistry was lacking while MP was in the band (since- according to what he has stated -he felt the connection had gone downhill or "some members" seemed alienated), that is no longer true.
I think the guys really found the "whole package" with MM. They got one of the best drummers in the world and his personality and attitude blends in perfectly to the band, while he is musically in the same page as all of the other members and he is truly committed to DT. The only complain I partially have about MM is his drum sound, which is partly due to production/mixing/mastering choices.
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One thing I miss from MP-era is that the albums we're more "versatile" and unpredictable with twists n shit.
ADTOE and DT12 have been pretty bland and not very memorable. For me at least.
I Didn't like all the stuff that MP did.. The "growling vocals" weren't my favourite, but at least they were something new. Something that I didn't expect to hear from DT. ADTOE and DT12 Didn't bring anything new to the table.
I like Dream Theater and I like Mike Mangini. But I feel like the ship has lost it's captain.
Haha :D Peace!
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One thing I miss from MP-era is that the albums we're more "versatile" and unpredictable with twists n shit.
ADTOE and DT12 have been pretty bland and not very memorable. For me at least.
I Didn't like all the stuff that MP did.. The "growling vocals" weren't my favourite, but at least they were something new. Something that I didn't expect to hear from DT. ADTOE and DT12 Didn't bring anything new to the table.
I like Dream Theater and I like Mike Mangini. But I feel like the ship has lost it's captain.
Haha :D Peace!
The ship's got a new cap'n! He's a pirate!
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The ship's got a new cap'n! He's a pirate!
(https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v288/BlobVanDam/dt12_2a.jpg)
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:clap:
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I don't think that getting together for an album and a short tour every few years with people from other bands is what he had in mind. Neither Transatlantic, nor Flying Colors were the main band for any of their members. While Transatlantic has existed for one an a half decade, with a 4th studio album on its way, it still looks more like a project than an actual band.
Agreed. Given what prolific writers Neal and Roine both are, if Transatlantic were an "ongoing band" and not a project, we'd be getting an album from them nearly every year, not having a four-year gap with nothing new by them.
Given that Flying Colors are working on a second album, I would say that both bands are releasing albums at a faster rate than a lot of other bands do (Metallica, Tool, etc.). How often you release an album is hardly the defining feature on whether you count as a "band" or not.
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The ship's got a new cap'n! He's a pirate!
(https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v288/BlobVanDam/dt12_2a.jpg)
Holy crap.
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Holy carp.
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I don't think that getting together for an album and a short tour every few years with people from other bands is what he had in mind. Neither Transatlantic, nor Flying Colors were the main band for any of their members. While Transatlantic has existed for one an a half decade, with a 4th studio album on its way, it still looks more like a project than an actual band.
Agreed. Given what prolific writers Neal and Roine both are, if Transatlantic were an "ongoing band" and not a project, we'd be getting an album from them nearly every year, not having a four-year gap with nothing new by them.
Given that Flying Colors are working on a second album, I would say that both bands are releasing albums at a faster rate than a lot of other bands do (Metallica, Tool, etc.). How often you release an album is hardly the defining feature on whether you count as a "band" or not.
Right, but the defining argument was that neither FC nor TA is the main band for any one of their members, they fit more under the side project category. Metallica, Tool and such also tour way more regularly than the former two.
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One thing I miss from MP-era is that the albums we're more "versatile" and unpredictable with twists n shit.
ADTOE and DT12 have been pretty bland and not very memorable. For me at least.
I Didn't like all the stuff that MP did.. The "growling vocals" weren't my favourite, but at least they were something new. Something that I didn't expect to hear from DT. ADTOE and DT12 Didn't bring anything new to the table.
I like Dream Theater and I like Mike Mangini. But I feel like the ship has lost it's captain.
Haha :D Peace!
To each his own for sure!
My view...
I see the remaining members as feeling free, renewed and liberated! A fresh beginning! No ball and chain weighing them down. Mangini has brought a new life to the band. I think they are loving life with MM!
As far the last 2 albums, I absolutely love and embrace them! TOTALLY fresh and moving forward from the direction BC&SL was heading! To never hear the obnoxious Portnoy growl again is pure bliss!
I am a Portnoy fan and continue to support him, (got my Transatlantic tickets in hand!)but this fan thinks the band is soaring right now with out him.
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Last night I popped in MP's Budokan commentary. Not only I was able to sit through the whole thing, but I thoroughly enjoyed it. It saddened me to know that I won't be getting stuff like this anymore. It would have been interesting for LALP, it looks so messy, he probably would have picked it to sherds with post-production trivia.
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Given that Flying Colors are working on a second album, I would say that both bands are releasing albums at a faster rate than a lot of other bands do (Metallica, Tool, etc.). How often you release an album is hardly the defining feature on whether you count as a "band" or not.
But can you honestly say, "Mike Portnoy's main band right now are Flying Colors, and everything else like Winery Dogs is just a side project"? That's the thing, before, it was like, "Mike Portnoy is the drummer of Dream Theater. And he does all sorts of other things on the side." But these days, it's impossible to break it down in such a manner.
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But can you honestly say, "Mike Portnoy's main band right now are Flying Colors, and everything else like Winery Dogs is just a side project"? That's the thing, before, it was like, "Mike Portnoy is the drummer of Dream Theater. And he does all sorts of other things on the side." But these days, it's impossible to break it down in such a manner.
Actually just saw an interview where he said Winery Dogs is his main band (he wanted to stress that it wasn't a project) and that his other groups were more like side projects.
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But can you honestly say, "Mike Portnoy's main band right now are Flying Colors, and everything else like Winery Dogs is just a side project"? That's the thing, before, it was like, "Mike Portnoy is the drummer of Dream Theater. And he does all sorts of other things on the side." But these days, it's impossible to break it down in such a manner.
Actually just saw an interview where he said Winery Dogs is his main band (he wanted to stress that it wasn't a project) and that his other groups were more like side projects.
I wonder if he decided this after their success. Personally, I thought it was a fairly mediocre record.
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I don't think that getting together for an album and a short tour every few years with people from other bands is what he had in mind. Neither Transatlantic, nor Flying Colors were the main band for any of their members. While Transatlantic has existed for one an a half decade, with a 4th studio album on its way, it still looks more like a project than an actual band.
Agreed. Given what prolific writers Neal and Roine both are, if Transatlantic were an "ongoing band" and not a project, we'd be getting an album from them nearly every year, not having a four-year gap with nothing new by them.
Given that Flying Colors are working on a second album, I would say that both bands are releasing albums at a faster rate than a lot of other bands do (Metallica, Tool, etc.). How often you release an album is hardly the defining feature on whether you count as a "band" or not.
No one is saying they aren't bands. When you said "ongoing band," that implied being a band that is full time, meaning they tour and/or record fairly regularly, something TA does not do. I think even Portnoy would acknowledge that TA is a side project, not a full-time band.
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Late to thread, but nah.
Knowing what we all do about the circumstances surrounding MP's departure, I wouldn't want him to be a part of the band again as things stand, unless for some reason many years down the line things didn't work out with MM and all of the guys had successfully and peacefully reconciled.
ADTOE is one of my favourite Dream Theater albums, but unfortunately Dream Theater 2013 is by far one of my least favourite (possibly second to last just above WDADU).
So the direction they've gone in really isn't to my taste, but I still don't think MP suddenly being in the band again would do anyone any favours. And I'm holding out hope that the next album impresses me.
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25 pages?
I don't think I'd want anyone back in a band who quit. If it is so bad that you quit a band, there are underlying issues with yourself, the other guys, the interpersonal relationships, and a number of other things that it is probably best that person didn't rejoin. Especially when the other bandmembers have hired a permanent replacement they are pleased with.
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But can you honestly say, "Mike Portnoy's main band right now are Flying Colors, and everything else like Winery Dogs is just a side project"? That's the thing, before, it was like, "Mike Portnoy is the drummer of Dream Theater. And he does all sorts of other things on the side." But these days, it's impossible to break it down in such a manner.
Actually just saw an interview where he said Winery Dogs is his main band (he wanted to stress that it wasn't a project) and that his other groups were more like side projects.
Well, the same was said about AM really. TWD are certainly more successful (or rather, less subject to ridicule), but I wouldn't put too much stock into the wording "main band".
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One thing I miss from MP-era is that the albums we're more "versatile" and unpredictable with twists n shit.
ADTOE and DT12 have been pretty bland and not very memorable. For me at least.
I Didn't like all the stuff that MP did.. The "growling vocals" weren't my favourite, but at least they were something new. Something that I didn't expect to hear from DT. ADTOE and DT12 Didn't bring anything new to the table.
I like Dream Theater and I like Mike Mangini. But I feel like the ship has lost it's captain.
Haha :D Peace!
To each his own for sure!
My view...
I see the remaining members as feeling free, renewed and liberated! A fresh beginning! No ball and chain weighing them down. Mangini has brought a new life to the band. I think they are loving life with MM!
As far the last 2 albums, I absolutely love and embrace them! TOTALLY fresh and moving forward from the direction BC&SL was heading! To never hear the obnoxious Portnoy growl again is pure bliss!
I am a Portnoy fan and continue to support him, (got my Transatlantic tickets in hand!)but this fan thinks the band is soaring right now with out him.
Yeah, U can really sense that "Freedom" in the whole atmosphere. I just don't find their music as interesting anymore. But I really don't mean that the new albums suck.. They don't but they are far away from being my favourite :P
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One thing I miss from MP-era is that the albums we're more "versatile" and unpredictable with twists n shit.
ADTOE and DT12 have been pretty bland and not very memorable. For me at least.
I Didn't like all the stuff that MP did.. The "growling vocals" weren't my favourite, but at least they were something new. Something that I didn't expect to hear from DT. ADTOE and DT12 Didn't bring anything new to the table.
I like Dream Theater and I like Mike Mangini. But I feel like the ship has lost it's captain.
Haha :D Peace!
A lot of us haven't adopted the mentality that "well it's not good, but at least it's new." Dream Theater could start to cover Maroon 5 songs and I suppose that would indeed be new. But most would agree that it wouldn't be very good. I have a feeling that most people did not enjoy the growling vocal, the ROROR background singing, the blatant copying of Muse on two albums etc. The fact that those things were new was of no consolation to the people who thought it sounded just plain bad.
I thought ADToE DID bring something new to the table. It brought a beast of a drummer into the band that they never had before. The rhythm section got very obviously more technical and tighter. The double bass work was more sophisticated, Outcry was a type of drumming we've never experienced in this band, and the tickle section sounded new and exciting. The instrumental section of the band got a new drummer cut from a totally different cloth, whose approach to the instrument is very different. How is that not "bringing something new to the table"?
I think that addition actually made the band more versatile than ever before. All of THAT was a welcomed twist for me...not cookie monster vocal effects and Muse covers.
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A lot of us haven't adopted the mentality that "well it's not good, but at least it's new." Dream Theater could start to cover Maroon 5 songs and I suppose that would indeed be new. But most would agree that it wouldn't be very good. I have a feeling that most people did not enjoy the growling vocal, the ROROR background singing, the blatant copying of Muse on two albums etc. The fact that those things were new was of no consolation to the people who thought it sounded just plain bad.
I thought ADToE DID bring something new to the table. It brought a beast of a drummer into the band that they never had before. The rhythm section got very obviously more technical and tighter. The double bass work was more sophisticated, Outcry was a type of drumming we've never experienced in this band, and the tickle section sounded new and exciting. The instrumental section of the band got a new drummer cut from a totally different cloth, whose approach to the instrument is very different. How is that not "bringing something new to the table"?
I think that addition actually made the band more versatile than ever before. All of THAT was a welcomed twist for me...not cookie monster vocal effects and Muse covers.
And I agree with you, yet again... Geez, what's the world coming to?
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One thing I miss from MP-era is that the albums we're more "versatile" and unpredictable with twists n shit.
ADTOE and DT12 have been pretty bland and not very memorable. For me at least.
I Didn't like all the stuff that MP did.. The "growling vocals" weren't my favourite, but at least they were something new. Something that I didn't expect to hear from DT. ADTOE and DT12 Didn't bring anything new to the table.
I like Dream Theater and I like Mike Mangini. But I feel like the ship has lost it's captain.
Haha :D Peace!
I have to agree with adastra here!
First of all: i like ADTOE, and i dislike most of the S/T but overall they have't really impressed me with anything they've done thus far. Both of these albums are VERY predictable. About MM. He's ability as a drummer is undeniable, he is a world- class drummer!. BUT in these two albums(ADTOE in particular), he has basically been a substitute for a drum- machine. I'm not sure why they don't utilize his abilities more.
Also when people complain about the copying of Muse in two of their albums, they are right. But what really suprised me was, why nobody complains about the blatant copying of Rush in their latest effort? Because IMHO, that's what The Looking Glass really is.
But i really wouldn't want to see MP return to the band. They just need to make better albums, because now they are in a position to do so! I love MP, and i like the current lineup of DT.
Everyone has their own opinions, and these are mine.
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I'd agree with TLG being too much of a Rush copy, and about DT12. I don't really dislike it but it's my least favourite DT album so far. However, I will strongly disagree with you about MM's drumming sounding like a drum machine. Just listen to his parts. Really, listen. This is not something a non-drummer could do on a drum machine. Really, I'd believe there are not a lot of drummers who could write drum parts like this. Why not? Because every single note he plays, every single hit, has been thought over to see if it fits the song. And that is very clearly audible. For example, TEI drum parts may not be THAT complex, but it's still pretty hard, and just listen to the drumming there. It's not just some rhythm section he's playing, he's really contributing to the song musically with those drum parts. It's incredibly varied and just so much more than just a solid basis for the others to play along to.
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MM really knows which note he's playing each time he hits the drums. Listen carefully to the songs from DT12, he's making melodies using the different drum to(ooo)nes, following or integrating what the other instruments are doing. It's just... amazing.
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Also when people complain about the copying of Muse in two of their albums, they are right. But what really suprised me was, why nobody complains about the blatant copying of Rush in their latest effort? Because IMHO, that's what The Looking Glass really is.
FWIW, plenty of people have noted the Rush influence on the song.
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I was on the fence about Portnoy returning, but after watching Luna Park I gotta say no. Mangini seems like such a good fit. And he's looking really happy out there and so are the other guys with him.
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I love how most people in this thread think their opinions of MP like they could sway the band into getting him back.
I love Mike to death but there is a reason he is not in the band anymore and the way they get along with MM is the proof in the pudding.
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MP is not coming back but I loved his stage presence. MM could do a lot better in those terms, although he does great with the band itself.
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MP is not coming back but I loved his stage presence. MM could do a lot better in those terms, although he does great with the band itself.
What do you suggest MM do to improve his stage presence?
EDIT: some people just want to see MP up there again and I get that. But when you say that MM needs to DO something to make it better, it makes me curious because I don't think the guy can really do much more. I think he has phenomenal stage and room presence. From all the way back when he was playing with Steve Vai to the DT audition video, to the ADToE shows, I think he's showed a lot of energy, passion and showmanship. But I'm not sure what exactly people think is lacking in his on-stage persona.
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A lot of us haven't adopted the mentality that "well it's not good, but at least it's new." Dream Theater could start to cover Maroon 5 songs and I suppose that would indeed be new. But most would agree that it wouldn't be very good. I have a feeling that most people did not enjoy the growling vocal, the ROROR background singing, the blatant copying of Muse on two albums etc. The fact that those things were new was of no consolation to the people who thought it sounded just plain bad.
I thought ADToE DID bring something new to the table. It brought a beast of a drummer into the band that they never had before. The rhythm section got very obviously more technical and tighter. The double bass work was more sophisticated, Outcry was a type of drumming we've never experienced in this band, and the tickle section sounded new and exciting. The instrumental section of the band got a new drummer cut from a totally different cloth, whose approach to the instrument is very different. How is that not "bringing something new to the table"?
I think that addition actually made the band more versatile than ever before. All of THAT was a welcomed twist for me...not cookie monster vocal effects and Muse covers.
And I agree with you, yet again... Geez, what's the world coming to?
:biggrin: Pigs must be flying outside
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A couple thoughts on stage presence:
I remember a couple comments about the size of Mangini's kit, and how he is hiding behind a huge kit. I don't know for sure, but I assumed that big space in the middle was designed specifically so he could connect with the audience - I dig it.
Also, Though I don't know either Mike personally, from what I've gleaned from clips and interviews, I think Mike Portnoy is genuinely being Mike Portnoy on stage. I think Mangini is genuinely being Mike Mangini on stage. I couldn't ask for more from either.
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MP is not coming back but I loved his stage presence. MM could do a lot better in those terms, although he does great with the band itself.
What do you suggest MM do to improve his stage presence?
EDIT: some people just want to see MP up there again and I get that. But when you say that MM needs to DO something to make it better, it makes me curious because I don't think the guy can really do much more. I think he has phenomenal stage and room presence. From all the way back when he was playing with Steve Vai to the DT audition video, to the ADToE shows, I think he's showed a lot of energy, passion and showmanship. But I'm not sure what exactly people think is lacking in his on-stage persona.
The only thing to me missing with MP vs. MM are the backing vocals. Maybe stick twirls/throws and standing up I guess? But I don't really think MM can stand up with the positioning of his kit really?
To me, MM is just as animated as MP was with looking at the other members and stuff. I agree that MM is quite into it, starting with the audition and it clearly shined through vs. most of the other drummers. I think the band is just as good with MM; the only real differences to me again are MP's solid live vox, and not playing to a click (which could change). The band feels pretty similar live, and if anything, I think JM is slightly more into it now.
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Also when people complain about the copying of Muse in two of their albums, they are right. But what really suprised me was, why nobody complains about the blatant copying of Rush in their latest effort? Because IMHO, that's what The Looking Glass really is.
Well, Muse is shit and Rush isn't so...
Seriously though, Muse is shit. Not that it's justifiable, but I'd rather hear Rush references (which they've been doing their whole career) than shitty Muse.
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Also when people complain about the copying of Muse in two of their albums, they are right. But what really suprised me was, why nobody complains about the blatant copying of Rush in their latest effort? Because IMHO, that's what The Looking Glass really is.
Well, Muse is shit and Rush isn't so...
Seriously though, Muse is shit. Not that it's justifiable, but I'd rather hear Rush references (which they've been doing their whole career) than shitty Muse.
Talk about constructive criticism of Muse! :rollin :rollin :rollin But, yeah, I'd rather have them be influenced by Rush than by Muse, it fits their music better.
B.Lee
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Funny thing is, over the deacades you can hear Rush being influenced by the time. Certain hot styles of recording at moment. Hell in the 90's Alex talked about tool all the time and Rush went with a heavier style as well.
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Also when people complain about the copying of Muse in two of their albums, they are right. But what really suprised me was, why nobody complains about the blatant copying of Rush in their latest effort? Because IMHO, that's what The Looking Glass really is.
Well, Muse is shit and Rush isn't so...
Seriously though, Muse is shit. Not that it's justifiable, but I'd rather hear Rush references (which they've been doing their whole career) than shitty Muse.
Talk about constructive criticism of Muse! :rollin :rollin :rollin But, yeah, I'd rather have them be influenced by Rush than by Muse, it fits their music better.
B.Lee
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Also...DT has always been clearly influenced by rush since the very beginning. TLG is not a clear break away from DT's style; Rush has always been a part of DT
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Also when people complain about the copying of Muse in two of their albums, they are right. But what really suprised me was, why nobody complains about the blatant copying of Rush in their latest effort? Because IMHO, that's what The Looking Glass really is.
Well, Muse is shit and Rush isn't so...
Seriously though, Muse is shit. Not that it's justifiable, but I'd rather hear Rush references (which they've been doing their whole career) than shitty Muse.
Also...DT has always been clearly influenced by rush since the very beginning. TLG is not a clear break away from DT's style; Rush has always been a part of DT
Well Muse isn't absolute, 100% shit IMO :biggrin:.
Anyway, its alright for them to be influenced by whatever artist they like. But i think The Looking Glass went just a little to far.
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DT without MP is DT without balls. Ass and balls. Very little 'attitude' to the overall aesthetic of the group.
Considering the calibre of the other guys, MM is a perfect fit; you basically have the best players possible on every instrument.
Would I like to see MP back in DT? Sure, for old times sake if nothing else. But I don't see it ever happening.
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Since I didn't see the band on the ADTOE tour, and had only seen random songs here and there from the tour on YT, when I started watching the Luna Park Blu-ray, I have to admit that it was a bit strange at first seeing a different drummer up there song after song, but by the time I got to probably the 1/3 point, it didn't seem weird at all anymore; it just took some adjusting.
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Also when people complain about the copying of Muse in two of their albums, they are right. But what really suprised me was, why nobody complains about the blatant copying of Rush in their latest effort? Because IMHO, that's what The Looking Glass really is.
FWIW, plenty of people have noted the Rush influence on the song.
Interestingly, the Rush song is the only one that actually does anything for me. The fact of the matter is that I loved Signals, and don't care much for new DT. Hell, I'd vote for an entire album of fake Rush songs. And calling it influenced is an understatement. It sounds like it was an unused B-side for the Subdivisions single. In fact, it'd fit right between Losing It and Countdown had it made the album.
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MP is never coming back. Ever. Get over it fellas. Maybe, just maybe they could do a one-show reunion with both drummers on stage. That would be all kinds of epic. But I don't see this happening anytime soon.
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MP is never coming back. Ever. Get over it fellas. Maybe, just maybe they could do a one-show reunion with both drummers on stage. That would be all kinds of epic. But I don't see this happening anytime soon.
It drives me nuts when people say this. It seems to convey this mentality of "I'm not unhappy, these people must just be whiny." Your point has been noted to death, so don't tell us to "get over it." We may express a preference for a previous drummer if we want to, so get off your high horse.
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While I won't say "Get over it", fans opining for MP should move on because it is obvious that they are very happy with MM and in a good place now.
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MP is never coming back. Ever. Get over it fellas. Maybe, just maybe they could do a one-show reunion with both drummers on stage. That would be all kinds of epic. But I don't see this happening anytime soon.
It drives me nuts when people say this. It seems to convey this mentality of "I'm not unhappy, these people must just be whiny." Your point has been noted to death, so don't tell us to "get over it." We may express a preference for a previous drummer if we want to, so get off your high horse.
Get over it. :rollin
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While I won't say "Get over it", fans opining for MP should move on because it is obvious that they are very happy with MM and in a good place now.
What's the point of a discussion forum if not to discuss things like this? People have various reasons for preferring one drummer over the other. It's not a matter of wishing or whining, just discussing. I have no idea who this neeto guy is, but I certainly know you to be more open to discourse. Telling people to get over it is a troll move, so I understand why you didn't want to say it. Still, the implication isn't much better.
For the record, I have no delusions about Portnoy returning; never happen. I still enjoy pointing out reasons why I prefer him, even if doing so in this forum is a wasted effort.
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For the record, I have no delusions about Portnoy returning; never happen. I still enjoy pointing out reasons why I prefer him, even if doing so in this forum is a wasted effort.
Not sure it's a wasted effort. As time's elapsed, I've come around to preferring Portnoy too. To me, nearly everything they've done since he's left has added some way to the evidence that he was a better fit.
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While I won't say "Get over it", fans opining for MP should move on because it is obvious that they are very happy with MM and in a good place now.
What's the point of a discussion forum if not to discuss things like this? People have various reasons for preferring one drummer over the other. It's not a matter of wishing or whining, just discussing. I have no idea who this neeto guy is, but I certainly know you to be more open to discourse. Telling people to get over it is a troll move, so I understand why you didn't want to say it. Still, the implication isn't much better.
For the record, I have no delusions about Portnoy returning; never happen. I still enjoy pointing out reasons why I prefer him, even if doing so in this forum is a wasted effort.
There is nothing "trollish" about saying "get over it", especially if it's something as annoying as the MP drama. It's been 3 years since MP decided to move on, and he has now found a great home with the Winery Dogs (which I really enjoy BTW), and DT has embraced MM as a new member of the family. To keep bringing up "should MP come back" kind of topics every other month or so has become quite old.
With MP's current musical direction and drive, and DT doing great with MM, I see no reason why to want MP to come back. Except like I said earlier, for some sort of one-show reunion.
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For the record, I have no delusions about Portnoy returning; never happen. I still enjoy pointing out reasons why I prefer him, even if doing so in this forum is a wasted effort.
Not sure it's a wasted effort. As time's elapsed, I've come around to preferring Portnoy too. To me, nearly everything they've done since he's left has added some way to the evidence that he was a better fit.
It's a wasted effort. He won't be coming back and it's pretty obvious that it would take a totally unpredictable set of circumstances for the door to open up. Also, you are part of a very small minority of people who actually think that MP is a better fit for the band musically. Every fan outlet has shown that the vast majority of fans love MM and couldn't be happier with the switch.
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While I won't say "Get over it", fans opining for MP should move on because it is obvious that they are very happy with MM and in a good place now.
What's the point of a discussion forum if not to discuss things like this? People have various reasons for preferring one drummer over the other. It's not a matter of wishing or whining, just discussing. I have no idea who this neeto guy is, but I certainly know you to be more open to discourse. Telling people to get over it is a troll move, so I understand why you didn't want to say it. Still, the implication isn't much better.
For the record, I have no delusions about Portnoy returning; never happen. I still enjoy pointing out reasons why I prefer him, even if doing so in this forum is a wasted effort.
There is nothing "trollish" about saying "get over it", especially if it's something as annoying as the MP drama. It's been 3 years since MP decided to move on, and he has now found a great home with the Winery Dogs (which I really enjoy BTW), and DT has embraced MM as a new member of the family. To keep bringing up "should MP come back" kind of topics every other month or so has become quite old.
With MP's current musical direction and drive, and DT doing great with MM, I see no reason why to want MP to come back. Except like I said earlier, for some sort of one-show reunion.
"Your hamster died. Get over it." It's not very "nice".
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It's a wasted effort. He won't be coming back and it's pretty obvious that it would take a totally unpredictable set of circumstances for the door to open up. Also, you are part of a very small minority of people who actually think that MP is a better fit for the band musically. Every fan outlet has shown that the vast majority of fans love MM and couldn't be happier with the switch.
What's "every fan outlet"? There are a ton of people who'd love to see MP back on Facebook and Twitter. There are ton at MP's website (once the "official" DT forum). Here is the only place I can think of that's overwhelmingly of the opinion that Mike should never, ever come back. And much as I like this place, we're hardly "every fan outlet".
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I'm not a huge fan of The Winery Dogs, but I'm glad Mike has found something that he may be able to stick with.
Oh come guys, nobody noticed this? :sad:
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While I won't say "Get over it", fans opining for MP should move on because it is obvious that they are very happy with MM and in a good place now.
What's the point of a discussion forum if not to discuss things like this? People have various reasons for preferring one drummer over the other. It's not a matter of wishing or whining, just discussing. I have no idea who this neeto guy is, but I certainly know you to be more open to discourse. Telling people to get over it is a troll move, so I understand why you didn't want to say it. Still, the implication isn't much better.
For the record, I have no delusions about Portnoy returning; never happen. I still enjoy pointing out reasons why I prefer him, even if doing so in this forum is a wasted effort.
Discussions are cool and I totally get what some are saying but some actually believe that there is a chance MP will come back soon. The band themselves seem to really enjoy themselves and have obviously moved forward and I think those pining for MP to come back should move forward as well.
That's all.
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I'm not a huge fan of The Winery Dogs, but I'm glad Mike has found something that he may be able to stick with.
Oh come guys, nobody noticed this? :sad:
We noticed, but I don't think The Winery Dogs are gonna last that long. It still feels like a side project, and although it's Portnoy's main focus right I feel it is something temporary for the other guys.
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I'm not a huge fan of The Winery Dogs, but I'm glad Mike has found something that he may be able to stick with.
Oh come guys, nobody noticed this? :sad:
We noticed, but I don't think The Winery Dogs are gonna last that long. It still feels like a side project, and although it's Portnoy's main focus right I feel it is something temporary for the other guys.
Winery Dogs are getting a whole lot more of radio time than DT at my local radio stations. Hell, even my local karaoke bar has a few of their songs in their database... nothing from DT LOL! Definitely NOT a side project, those 3 dudes love to play music together.
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While I won't say "Get over it", fans opining for MP should move on because it is obvious that they are very happy with MM and in a good place now.
What's the point of a discussion forum if not to discuss things like this? People have various reasons for preferring one drummer over the other. It's not a matter of wishing or whining, just discussing. I have no idea who this neeto guy is, but I certainly know you to be more open to discourse. Telling people to get over it is a troll move, so I understand why you didn't want to say it. Still, the implication isn't much better.
For the record, I have no delusions about Portnoy returning; never happen. I still enjoy pointing out reasons why I prefer him, even if doing so in this forum is a wasted effort.
There is nothing "trollish" about saying "get over it", especially if it's something as annoying as the MP drama. It's been 3 years since MP decided to move on, and he has now found a great home with the Winery Dogs (which I really enjoy BTW), and DT has embraced MM as a new member of the family. To keep bringing up "should MP come back" kind of topics every other month or so has become quite old.
With MP's current musical direction and drive, and DT doing great with MM, I see no reason why to want MP to come back. Except like I said earlier, for some sort of one-show reunion.
Sorry, I was unaware of the ongoing hostage crisis forcing you to read threads that annoy you. Godspeed with that. Hope it all works out.
I just don't seen any problem with discussing what people would prefer. This isn't an open letter pleading for him to return or be admitted back. Like I said, I understand that this is permanent, and probably best for both parties. As for the wasted effort, it has nothing to do with trying to convince anybody of anything. I'm simply making my own observations about why I think MP was a better fit. Plenty of people here will hear what I say and disagree with me. I enjoy their differing opinions. Others will never hear what I say and to those I refer to my wasted effort. Sadly, I think there are a lot of those hanging out round these parts.
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It's a wasted effort. He won't be coming back and it's pretty obvious that it would take a totally unpredictable set of circumstances for the door to open up. Also, you are part of a very small minority of people who actually think that MP is a better fit for the band musically. Every fan outlet has shown that the vast majority of fans love MM and couldn't be happier with the switch.
What's "every fan outlet"? There are a ton of people who'd love to see MP back on Facebook and Twitter. There are ton at MP's website (once the "official" DT forum). Here is the only place I can think of that's overwhelmingly of the opinion that Mike should never, ever come back. And much as I like this place, we're hardly "every fan outlet".
The first thing is that at both of the shows I went to, the crowd went nuts when the band introduced MM and he soloed. After watching concert footage from almost every US show, it's obvious that this reaction was fairly uniform. According to the band, the crowds have embraced MM beyond what anyone could have hoped for. I believe them, having seen evidence of this myself.
I'm not going get into some of the negative stuff people have said about MP over forums, videos, articles, because I don't think a lot of it is fair or right. But almost everything I've read from ANY source (excluding MP forums, MP FB and MP Twitter) has shown overwhelming negativity towards MP. And if you have been following the interviews in which he's answered questions about the situation, he seems very reluctant to say anything because of backlash. I don't think the burden is for people to prove that most people prefer MM; I think it's been pretty obvious that is the case. Furthermore, I don't see any reason why this forum would be biased against MP-- this isn't the MM forum.
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I'm not a huge fan of The Winery Dogs, but I'm glad Mike has found something that he may be able to stick with.
Oh come guys, nobody noticed this? :sad:
Are you referring to the subject? :tup
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:clap:
That was the only reason I even posted in this thread. :lol
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It's a wasted effort. He won't be coming back and it's pretty obvious that it would take a totally unpredictable set of circumstances for the door to open up. Also, you are part of a very small minority of people who actually think that MP is a better fit for the band musically. Every fan outlet has shown that the vast majority of fans love MM and couldn't be happier with the switch.
What's "every fan outlet"? There are a ton of people who'd love to see MP back on Facebook and Twitter. There are ton at MP's website (once the "official" DT forum). Here is the only place I can think of that's overwhelmingly of the opinion that Mike should never, ever come back. And much as I like this place, we're hardly "every fan outlet".
The first thing is that at both of the shows I went to, the crowd went nuts when the band introduced MM and he soloed. After watching concert footage from almost every US show, it's obvious that this reaction was fairly uniform. According to the band, the crowds have embraced MM beyond what anyone could have hoped for. I believe them, having seen evidence of this myself.
I'm not arguing with you; I fully recognize that I'm in the minority. I will point out though that I cheered Richie Faulkner's introduction, despite thinking that KKD is 100 times the guitarist he is. I also cheered for Doug Scarrett a couple of weeks ago, despite seeing him thoroughly outplayed by Paul Quinn. It's courtesy. It's not like anybody who goes to a DT show is going to boo the new guy. :lol
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I voted yes, because I miss his character and personality. But come to think of it, he´s in a much better place, making all kinds of different music. Even though none of his projects has been made into a full time band yet (give them time!), I really like most of his output - Flying Colors and The Winery Dogs in particular are great, PSMS has released a great DVD, and Adrenaline Mob has some good songs like Believe Me and All On The Line. They did put on a great show when I saw them, although the songwriting needed some improvement. Had they insisted on a second album with POrtnoy, maybe things would be better, but who knows, right?
Dream Theater, on the other hand, has gained a much needed breath of fresh air - which Portnoy himself admitted wa necessary, mind you - and are sticking to what they do best. At this point in their career I doubt they will do something really different from what they already do, simply because it would change their identity too much. It doesn´t matter to me, they are and always will be the band I go for when I need my prog metal fix.
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I'll bet he regrets quitting every single day! He lost the big audience and a lot of monetary compensation. Its probably fun being a musical starving artist for awhile, but I'm sure his income is dramatically lower.
I bet it haunts me that he lost his baby.
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One thing I miss from MP-era is that the albums we're more "versatile" and unpredictable with twists n shit.
ADTOE and DT12 have been pretty bland and not very memorable. For me at least.
I Didn't like all the stuff that MP did.. The "growling vocals" weren't my favourite, but at least they were something new. Something that I didn't expect to hear from DT. ADTOE and DT12 Didn't bring anything new to the table.
I like Dream Theater and I like Mike Mangini. But I feel like the ship has lost it's captain.
Haha :D Peace!
Thing is, instead of adding anything new, they brought back certain elements. Mixing their modern metal with the old melodicness of the first 3 albums.
I don't think he'll be permanently back. But I am sure they'll let him do some special shows...maybe playing the 12 step suite, or better yet TBOT live. And then double drum version of Metropolis.
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One thing I miss from MP-era is that the albums we're more "versatile" and unpredictable with twists n shit.
ADTOE and DT12 have been pretty bland and not very memorable. For me at least.
I Didn't like all the stuff that MP did.. The "growling vocals" weren't my favourite, but at least they were something new. Something that I didn't expect to hear from DT. ADTOE and DT12 Didn't bring anything new to the table.
I like Dream Theater and I like Mike Mangini. But I feel like the ship has lost it's captain.
Haha :D Peace!
Thing is, instead of adding anything new, they brought back certain elements. Mixing their modern metal with the old melodicness of the first 3 albums.
I don't think he'll be permanently back. But I am sure they'll let him do some special shows...maybe playing the 12 step suite, or better yet TBOT live. And then double drum version of Metropolis.
Cool setlist draft for the comeback tour, eh? 12 step suite, TBOT and ACOS...
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One thing I miss from MP-era is that the albums we're more "versatile" and unpredictable with twists n shit.
ADTOE and DT12 have been pretty bland and not very memorable. For me at least.
I Didn't like all the stuff that MP did.. The "growling vocals" weren't my favourite, but at least they were something new. Something that I didn't expect to hear from DT. ADTOE and DT12 Didn't bring anything new to the table.
I like Dream Theater and I like Mike Mangini. But I feel like the ship has lost it's captain.
Haha :D Peace!
Thing is, instead of adding anything new, they brought back certain elements. Mixing their modern metal with the old melodicness of the first 3 albums.
I don't think he'll be permanently back. But I am sure they'll let him do some special shows...maybe playing the 12 step suite, or better yet TBOT live. And then double drum version of Metropolis.
Cool setlist draft for the comeback tour, eh? 12 step suite, TBOT and ACOS...
Their 30th anniversary is drawing near.
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But I am sure they'll let him do some special shows...maybe playing the 12 step suite, or better yet TBOT live. And then double drum version of Metropolis.
Why would the band want to do any of those things? Especially on a possible 30th anniversary? The show or tour then would be all about the return of an ex-member, instead of on the band, and the current one at that.
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But I am sure they'll let him do some special shows...maybe playing the 12 step suite, or better yet TBOT live. And then double drum version of Metropolis.
Why would the band want to do any of those things?
Why wouldn't they? Who knows what they might do down the line?
I'm saying at this point in their career, MM is permanent and I highly doubt MP will become a permanent member again, unless god forbid MM is unable to continue.
I don't know about the 12 step suite, but The Best of Times would be nice. But it won't be until later in their career, maybe they might consider something special like that for their 30th anniversary. I'm looking forward to hearing more Mangini DT, and whatever else MP has in mind.
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I'll bet he regrets quitting every single day! He lost the big audience and a lot of monetary compensation. Its probably fun being a musical starving artist for awhile, but I'm sure his income is dramatically lower.
I bet it haunts me that he lost his baby.
MP's not starving. He's already done alright for himself, but more importantly he's probably still getting royalties from half of DT's catalog (including plenty of lyrics). I'm sure they worked out a settlement so that they don't have to pay him every night they play TRoaE, but it was probably a nice check. Since none of the lawsuits ever came to fruition, I figure he was happy with the arrangement. I'll bet he made out pretty well for the AV7 stint, as well. This is not to say that he didn't take a hit, the steady stream of tour money must have been a big comfort, but I doubt he's regretting the decision from a financial standpoint.
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Well, I was going to post this in the "Are DT getting stale" thread, but it's locked. Still, since I spent 10 minutes writing the post, I might as well post it somewhere, since I don't think it violates the rules like the OP did. Anyway, it's also on topic enough here:
Are DT Getting Stale (Without Mike Portnoy)?
Here's my perspective: I'd say the last several Dream Theater records with Mike Portnoy were pretty experimental, in the sense that through that era the band often tried to mix more modern influences (Opeth, Muse, etc.,) into their formula, which is seen at various places from SDOIT - BC&SL.
This experimentation away from the usual DT progressive metal sound was always a little risky for the band, and often divided fans. Some people love the Opeth influences on songs like "Repentance" and Muse influences on songs like "Panic Attack", while others did not. Some still really liked the more "modern metal" approach of Systematic Chaos and Black Clouds, while others felt isolated by that sound. And so on.
Anyway, after Mike Portnoy left, it felt like the band really needed to take a breather and reflect on the last few years to decide what of the work t they'd done had been successful, and what hadn't. In my opinion, A Dramatic Turn of Events was really just that - instead of veering of into new territory, it simply contained all the best, most tried-and-true elements of Dream Theater's music through their career. In my opinion, it is the consumate "Dream Theater record" and exactly the record the band needed to put out at that juncture in their career.
That said, I am a little bit disappointed with DT12. To me, it's the same thing over again. I hear lots of DT sounding like DT, and lots of DT sounding like Rush, but very little of DT taking chances and challening themselves with their music.
Maybe I'll warm up to it with more listens. For now, I do like it, but while I'd say the band are short of "going stale", I sure do hope they mix things up a bit more and get back to dicing things up a bit.
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As far as the Muse influences, don't you mean Never Enough? I can't hear any Muse on Panic Attack.
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As far as the Muse influences, don't you mean Never Enough? I can't hear any Muse on Panic Attack.
A couple of songs have the "Muse influence", i.e. that keyboard, arpeggio-driven sound. Never Enough, Prophets of War, Panic Attack are the three main examples, I think.
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Huh. I'm not the biggest Muse fan, so maybe that's why I don't hear it.
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Huh. I'm not the biggest Muse fan, so maybe that's why I don't hear it.
Well, it's definitely there. I mean, Muse were in the inspiration corner and everything :P
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Anyway, after Mike Portnoy left, it felt like the band really needed to take a breather and reflect on the last few years to decide what of the work t they'd done had been successful, and what hadn't. In my opinion, A Dramatic Turn of Events was really just that - instead of veering of into new territory, it simply contained all the best, most tried-and-true elements of Dream Theater's music through their career. In my opinion, it is the consumate "Dream Theater record" and exactly the record the band needed to put out at that juncture in their career.
That said, I am a little bit disappointed with DT12. To me, it's the same thing over again. I hear lots of DT sounding like DT, and lots of DT sounding like Rush, but very little of DT taking chances and challening themselves with their music.
Maybe I'll warm up to it with more listens. For now, I do like it, but while I'd say the band are short of "going stale", I sure do hope they mix things up a bit more and get back to dicing things up a bit.
I agree with this 100% I liked ADTOE when it came out and i still do! But DT12 to me felt like the band has hit a dead stop. After ADTOE, i was expecting them to set a course into "uncharted territory". But DT12 feels like an even safer album than ADTOE, with very little new on the table. The album is fine and there are a couple of really good songs, but it just feels like they are afraid to experiment with something new.
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I'll bet he regrets quitting every single day! He lost the big audience and a lot of monetary compensation. Its probably fun being a musical starving artist for awhile, but I'm sure his income is dramatically lower.
I bet it haunts me that he lost his baby.
MP's not starving. He's already done alright for himself, but more importantly he's probably still getting royalties from half of DT's catalog (including plenty of lyrics). I'm sure they worked out a settlement so that they don't have to pay him every night they play TRoaE, but it was probably a nice check. Since none of the lawsuits ever came to fruition, I figure he was happy with the arrangement. I'll bet he made out pretty well for the AV7 stint, as well. This is not to say that he didn't take a hit, the steady stream of tour money must have been a big comfort, but I doubt he's regretting the decision from a financial standpoint.
I know he isn’t starving but he is making much less than he would be with DT overall. I’m sure he must regret it from a financial standpoint to some degree. He likes his lifestyle and it has been hampered a bit.
Plus, Mike loves the big audience to feed off of. Well I saw him with Adrenaline Mob in from of 150 people at Toads Place in New Haven, he looked disgusted and disinterested.
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I'll bet he regrets quitting every single day! He lost the big audience and a lot of monetary compensation. Its probably fun being a musical starving artist for awhile, but I'm sure his income is dramatically lower.
I bet it haunts me that he lost his baby.
MP's not starving. He's already done alright for himself, but more importantly he's probably still getting royalties from half of DT's catalog (including plenty of lyrics). I'm sure they worked out a settlement so that they don't have to pay him every night they play TRoaE, but it was probably a nice check. Since none of the lawsuits ever came to fruition, I figure he was happy with the arrangement. I'll bet he made out pretty well for the AV7 stint, as well. This is not to say that he didn't take a hit, the steady stream of tour money must have been a big comfort, but I doubt he's regretting the decision from a financial standpoint.
I know he isn’t starving but he is making much less than he would be with DT overall. I’m sure he must regret it from a financial standpoint to some degree. He likes his lifestyle and it has been hampered a bit.
Plus, Mike loves the big audience to feed off of. Well I saw him with Adrenaline Mob in from of 150 people at Toads Place in New Haven, he looked disgusted and disinterested.
He may have lost a chunk of touring profits, but I think his fortun should keep him pretty safe at this point, and maybe that was another factor in his decision to leave the band - since when was music all about money anyway? I bet it isn´t the case for him, and would argue that it´s not the case for the remaining DT members.
As for him craving a bigger audience, I think it´s true to a certain extent, but I saw him with The Winery Dogs playing on an uncomfortably small theater which fitted 500 people, and he looked happy about it.
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Well, I was going to post this in the "Are DT getting stale" thread, but it's locked. Still, since I spent 10 minutes writing the post, I might as well post it somewhere, since I don't think it violates the rules like the OP did. Anyway, it's also on topic enough here:
Are DT Getting Stale (Without Mike Portnoy)?
Here's my perspective: I'd say the last several Dream Theater records with Mike Portnoy were pretty experimental, in the sense that through that era the band often tried to mix more modern influences (Opeth, Muse, etc.,) into their formula, which is seen at various places from SDOIT - BC&SL.
This experimentation away from the usual DT progressive metal sound was always a little risky for the band, and often divided fans. Some people love the Opeth influences on songs like "Repentance" and Muse influences on songs like "Panic Attack", while others did not. Some still really liked the more "modern metal" approach of Systematic Chaos and Black Clouds, while others felt isolated by that sound. And so on.
Anyway, after Mike Portnoy left, it felt like the band really needed to take a breather and reflect on the last few years to decide what of the work t they'd done had been successful, and what hadn't. In my opinion, A Dramatic Turn of Events was really just that - instead of veering of into new territory, it simply contained all the best, most tried-and-true elements of Dream Theater's music through their career. In my opinion, it is the consumate "Dream Theater record" and exactly the record the band needed to put out at that juncture in their career.
That said, I am a little bit disappointed with DT12. To me, it's the same thing over again. I hear lots of DT sounding like DT, and lots of DT sounding like Rush, but very little of DT taking chances and challening themselves with their music.
Maybe I'll warm up to it with more listens. For now, I do like it, but while I'd say the band are short of "going stale", I sure do hope they mix things up a bit more and get back to dicing things up a bit.
Wait.....you have a problem with DT sounding like DT?
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I'll bet he regrets quitting every single day! He lost the big audience and a lot of monetary compensation. Its probably fun being a musical starving artist for awhile, but I'm sure his income is dramatically lower.
I bet it haunts me that he lost his baby.
MP's not starving. He's already done alright for himself, but more importantly he's probably still getting royalties from half of DT's catalog (including plenty of lyrics). I'm sure they worked out a settlement so that they don't have to pay him every night they play TRoaE, but it was probably a nice check. Since none of the lawsuits ever came to fruition, I figure he was happy with the arrangement. I'll bet he made out pretty well for the AV7 stint, as well. This is not to say that he didn't take a hit, the steady stream of tour money must have been a big comfort, but I doubt he's regretting the decision from a financial standpoint.
I know he isn’t starving but he is making much less than he would be with DT overall. I’m sure he must regret it from a financial standpoint to some degree. He likes his lifestyle and it has been hampered a bit.
Plus, Mike loves the big audience to feed off of. Well I saw him with Adrenaline Mob in from of 150 people at Toads Place in New Haven, he looked disgusted and disinterested.
He may have lost a chunk of touring profits, but I think his fortun should keep him pretty safe at this point, and maybe that was another factor in his decision to leave the band - since when was music all about money anyway? I bet it isn´t the case for him, and would argue that it´s not the case for the remaining DT members.
As for him craving a bigger audience, I think it´s true to a certain extent, but I saw him with The Winery Dogs playing on an uncomfortably small theater which fitted 500 people, and he looked happy about it.
Its just my opinion. I know people say its not about the money. Athletes always say it and then go for the largest contract. Its not exactly the same but I believe when you are used to a certain yearly income and its less it makes a difference. At least that's what I think.
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I don't think you are offbase at all, Tick. And it isn't necessarily a case of being greedy. But let's face it, it's one thing to go into music when you are in your early 20's and want to do it for the sake of doing what you love. It's a different matter altogether when you are a family man coming up on 50, with kids getting ready for college, and you have to think about the fact that you are self-employed, have no medical benefits other than what you are able to pay for, have no 401k or retirement plan, etc. When you are in that situation, you tend to make decisions that are likely to take care of you in the future, and you tend to sweat any big financial decision because there is less time for it to "come out in the wash" if it ends up being a bad decision.
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But I am sure they'll let him do some special shows...maybe playing the 12 step suite, or better yet TBOT live. And then double drum version of Metropolis.
Why would the band want to do any of those things?
Why wouldn't they?
Because it would be unfair to Mike Mangini to say, "Hey, we are gonna bring our old drummer back for a show or tour and dedicate an hour of each show to a suite of songs that is all about him." It makes no sense.
As for a special or anniversary show, I am not even sure that would be a good idea. Given Portnoy's tendency to want to be the center of attention, could he be trusted to not come back for said show or even one songs and not make it all about him and hog the spotlight on stage, thus making Mangini look forgotten or irrelevant? Not sure about that. I know they did it with Sherinian and Dominici at the WDADR show, but those guys left under different circumstances and the dynamic, post-departures, was not the same as it is with the band and Mike Portnoy now.
I don't know about the 12 step suite, but The Best of Times would be nice.
I agree about The Best of Times. It would be a shame if JP never got to play that awesome solo live, but I don't think it'll ever get played. They'd never play that one without Portnoy, and I don't think Portnoy ever wanted to play it live, hence it not being played on the BC&SL tour.
Well, I was going to post this in the "Are DT getting stale" thread, but it's locked. Still, since I spent 10 minutes writing the post, I might as well post it somewhere, since I don't think it violates the rules like the OP did. Anyway, it's also on topic enough here:
Are DT Getting Stale (Without Mike Portnoy)?
Here's my perspective: I'd say the last several Dream Theater records with Mike Portnoy were pretty experimental, in the sense that through that era the band often tried to mix more modern influences (Opeth, Muse, etc.,) into their formula, which is seen at various places from SDOIT - BC&SL.
This experimentation away from the usual DT progressive metal sound was always a little risky for the band, and often divided fans. Some people love the Opeth influences on songs like "Repentance" and Muse influences on songs like "Panic Attack", while others did not. Some still really liked the more "modern metal" approach of Systematic Chaos and Black Clouds, while others felt isolated by that sound. And so on.
Anyway, after Mike Portnoy left, it felt like the band really needed to take a breather and reflect on the last few years to decide what of the work t they'd done had been successful, and what hadn't. In my opinion, A Dramatic Turn of Events was really just that - instead of veering of into new territory, it simply contained all the best, most tried-and-true elements of Dream Theater's music through their career. In my opinion, it is the consumate "Dream Theater record" and exactly the record the band needed to put out at that juncture in their career.
That said, I am a little bit disappointed with DT12. To me, it's the same thing over again. I hear lots of DT sounding like DT, and lots of DT sounding like Rush, but very little of DT taking chances and challening themselves with their music.
Maybe I'll warm up to it with more listens. For now, I do like it, but while I'd say the band are short of "going stale", I sure do hope they mix things up a bit more and get back to dicing things up a bit.
One could argue that the band took a chance by releasing an album of mostly short(er) songs (by their standards). Plus, songs like The Bigger Picture and Surrender to Reason, while both sounding like DT, sound very unique for them. I can't think of any other song of their that sounds like either of those tunes. I am not gonna say that DT12 is experimental on the level of albums like Awake and 6DOIT, but it's not as samey and safe as you are suggesting, IMO.
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I agree about The Best of Times. It would be a shame if JP never got to play that awesome solo live, but I don't think it'll ever get played. They'd never play that one without Portnoy, and I don't think Portnoy ever wanted to play it live, hence it not being played on the BC&SL tour.
I know JP doesn't like to do it, but I really wish they could at least do some sort of a medley and include the ending of TBOT onto it, that way they won't be doing MP's song without him, but still playing that wonderful solo live. I honestly think that the audience would be very happy with something like that.
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I don't think you are offbase at all, Tick. And it isn't necessarily a case of being greedy. But let's face it, it's one thing to go into music when you are in your early 20's and want to do it for the sake of doing what you love. It's a different matter altogether when you are a family man coming up on 50, with kids getting ready for college, and you have to think about the fact that you are self-employed, have no medical benefits other than what you are able to pay for, have no 401k or retirement plan, etc. When you are in that situation, you tend to make decisions that are likely to take care of you in the future, and you tend to sweat any big financial decision because there is less time for it to "come out in the wash" if it ends up being a bad decision.
Very well stated, Bosk. I can also add as a 49 year old man who has prospered at times in life and struggled at others, the reality is you get accustomed to whatever income bracket you are in and your lifestyle follows suit.
When less is coming in it has an effect on you. Like you said, college and things of that mature are not cheap.
Now we all know Mike is a workaholic who likes to work 24/7, and at this point he will need to bring in the money.
I have to believe he greatly regrets letting his affair with AV7 end his marriage with Dream Theater.
I also wonder what his wife and children think privately about the situation?
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I have to believe he greatly regrets letting his affair with AV7 end his marriage with Dream Theater.
Totally agree with that, Tick. I think his whole point was that he wanted to leave DT on hold while joining A7X at least for one more tour/album, and the other guys called his bluff.
About his family's thoughts on his decision, I think his wife supported him, and he wrote a song called You Saved Me on The Winery Dogs album.
I would love to see a reunion show, provided that MP does not behave in a David Lee Roth kind of way, dissing other members and trying to make the show all about him. I think he should be able to manage that.
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I have to believe he greatly regrets letting his affair with AV7 end his marriage with Dream Theater.
Totally agree with that, Tick. I think his whole point was that he wanted to leave DT on hold while joining A7X at least for one more tour/album, and the other guys called his bluff.
About his family's thoughts on his decision, I think his wife supported him, and he wrote a song called You Saved Me on The Winery Dogs album.
I would love to see a reunion show, provided that MP does not behave in a David Lee Roth kind of way, dissing other members and trying to make the show all about him. I think he should be able to manage that.
I'm not saying his wife doesn't support him. That's why I said "privately". I'm sure her deep seeded inner thoughts are probably a little different than her outward public ones. You know what I'm saying?
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Yeah, ok...I guess his family was just as shocked as everyone else when he announced it. They might have a better insight on this because they know the innings of the band more so than us fans, but who knows, huh?
To me, as is the case with all breakups, it's never black and white. Think about the splits between David Lee Roth and Sammy Hagar versus Van Halen; Roger Waters vs. Pink Floyd and so on...each side has its share of the truth, and it's hard to judge based only on what goes to the press. And that works to MP's disadvantage in a big way, because he was the one who was most vocal about the split, so he came across as a crybaby one interview after the next.
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Yeah, ok...I guess his family was just as shocked as everyone else when he announced it. They might have a better insight on this because they know the innings of the band more so than us fans, but who knows, huh?
To me, as is the case with all breakups, it's never black and white. Think about the splits between David Lee Roth and Sammy Hagar versus Van Halen; Roger Waters vs. Pink Floyd and so on...each side has its share of the truth, and it's hard to judge based only on what goes to the press. And that works to MP's disadvantage in a big way, because he was the one who was most vocal about the split, so he came across as a crybaby one interview after the next.
I think in Mikes case its clear he dumped his main gig for a spring fling. He had visions of grandeur and AV7 had other ideas. He make a poor choice and now all he can do is live with it. The fact that he would go back to DT in a millisecond proves this point.
The sad thing for Mike, is Dream Theater is happy, and not missing a beat. Why would they go back to drama when they have peace and they don't need to? I'm sure deep down they have feelings for Mike, but that doesn't mean they want to work with him again.
I think the only thing that brings MP back is if MM leaves voluntarily and that seems unlikely.
but hey, what do I know?
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Financially, MP is not hurting. He stated most of his reasons for leaving DT. Initially I'm sure he regretted his decision, but in the end it was the right move for everyone. Most of the fanbase are very happy with DT's post MP output. It's a pretty safe bet if MP were still in the band these last 2 albums would be very different. DT is in a happy place, and MP is now in a happy place and all parties seem to creating music that make them happy. I won't be holding my breath waiting for MP to be on stage with DT ever again. IF anything were to happen with those guys, the closest I would guess would be LTE.
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I agree about The Best of Times. It would be a shame if JP never got to play that awesome solo live, but I don't think it'll ever get played. They'd never play that one without Portnoy, and I don't think Portnoy ever wanted to play it live, hence it not being played on the BC&SL tour.
I know JP doesn't like to do it, but I really wish they could at least do some sort of a medley and include the ending of TBOT onto it, that way they won't be doing MP's song without him, but still playing that wonderful solo live. I honestly think that the audience would be very happy with something like that.
I've never thought of this but it is the perfect way to play the song without really playing it.
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It's a pretty safe bet if MP were still in the band these last 2 albums would be very different.
What 2 albums? With the break he wanted we'd be lucky to have 1.
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I agree about The Best of Times. It would be a shame if JP never got to play that awesome solo live, but I don't think it'll ever get played. They'd never play that one without Portnoy, and I don't think Portnoy ever wanted to play it live, hence it not being played on the BC&SL tour.
I know JP doesn't like to do it, but I really wish they could at least do some sort of a medley and include the ending of TBOT onto it, that way they won't be doing MP's song without him, but still playing that wonderful solo live. I honestly think that the audience would be very happy with something like that.
They should so a Nightmare to Remember/Best of Times mash-up, where they only play instrumental bits from the latter, that way they could play a lot of Nightmare..., while still avoiding the "Day after day" section, and playing only instrumental bits from TBOT, including the solo at the end.
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They should so a Nightmare to Remember/Best of Times mash-up, where they only play instrumental bits from the latter, that way they could play a lot of Nightmare..., while still avoiding the "Day after day" section, and playing only instrumental bits from TBOT, including the solo at the end.
Haha that's actually a really interesting thought! I'm trying to figure out if it would work musically or not, but I guess if anyone could figure out how to link the two it would be JR and/or JP!
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They should so a Nightmare to Remember/Best of Times mash-up, where they only play instrumental bits from the latter, that way they could play a lot of Nightmare..., while still avoiding the "Day after day" section, and playing only instrumental bits from TBOT, including the solo at the end.
Haha that's actually a really interesting thought! I'm trying to figure out if it would work musically or not, but I guess if anyone could figure out how to link the two it would be JR and/or JP!
I'd actually love to see them do Instrumedley II, featuring songs from SDoIT thru BCaSL, perhaps using the 12 Step Suite as a basis (as TDoE and Metropolis were for the original Instrumedley). That way they could include various parts of the 12 Step Suite, The Great Debate (which they probably will never include in the setlist again), Honor Thy Father (personal MP song), Never Enough (that instrumental in the middle RULES!), TMoLS (the instrumental part of the song is weighed down by the ssssllllooooowwwww first part of the song) and TBoT (once again, a personal MP song). Would love to see something like that done, but with JP's hatred for medleys, it'll be a cold day in hell before that will happen!
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I'm still holding out hope that JP will surprise us and include TBOT in the setlist this year.
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You and me both. Such an underrated song.
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I'm still holding out hope that JP will surprise us and include TBOT in the setlist this year.
I don't want to play a part in reopening a 3 year old debate but I think they will never play that without MP and I don't see MP ever coming back. I think every song is free game including the any part of the 12 Step Suite, Change of Seasons, or even Space Dye Vest but TBOT is just too specific. As opposed to somewhat vague and broad references in ACOS, TBOT specifically references what movies he used to watch with his dad, where he would sit when they watch those movies, etc. It would just be awkward without him in the band. I also think that is a flaw of the lyrics (again, not to reopen a sensitive topic) but I would rather they stick with less less specific lyrics that everyone can relate to in their own way.
After pondering what I wrote (because i know MP sometimes reads this board and has reacted very badly towards criticism of his lyrics to the song), I started thinking about Take Away My Pain. In retrospect, those lyrics might be very specific to JP's situation with his dad yet they are still portrayed in a general light. I don't know if JP literally sat on the edge of his dad's bed and his dad referenced Gene Kelly not singing in the rain, in fact, I can't be sure its not just him projecting his feelings into an imagined situation that was reminiscent of the last few days he spent with his dad. To me, those questions and the time I spent pondering really made me connect with the song. With TBOT, which by the way, I think is a very beautiful and moving tribute to MP's dad, when I ponder the lyrics it makes me try to literally imagine the situation as opposed to its figurative meaning and it takes away from the wonder of the lyrics. My own personal opinion, obviously...but I still think TBOT is a pretty damn cool song.
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Financially, MP is not hurting. He stated most of his reasons for leaving DT. Initially I'm sure he regretted his decision, but in the end it was the right move for everyone. Most of the fanbase are very happy with DT's post MP output. It's a pretty safe bet if MP were still in the band these last 2 albums would be very different. DT is in a happy place, and MP is now in a happy place and all parties seem to creating music that make them happy. I won't be holding my breath waiting for MP to be on stage with DT ever again. IF anything were to happen with those guys, the closest I would guess would be LTE.
I'd actually put some money on an LTE thing happening. From what I've seen of the situation, two of the guys are still perfectly cool with MP, and two of them seem to want nothing whatsoever to do with him. Thankfully for us, the two cool ones are a part of LTE. Given a little more time, I suspect they'd be happy to jam together. My only question would be whether or not JP wanted to take 2 months out of his non-DT time to make it happen. JR always seems pretty willing to do outside stuff.
As for playing MP themed stuff, I think it's a moot point. As they produce more and more MM era music, they'll play less and less (relatively speaking) old era stuff. They're always going to play some, but as the amount decreases, the catalogue increases. Four albums from now they'll be picking 5 old songs rather than ten now, so playing anything remotely contentious just won't be necessary.
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Financially, MP is not hurting. He stated most of his reasons for leaving DT. Initially I'm sure he regretted his decision, but in the end it was the right move for everyone. Most of the fanbase are very happy with DT's post MP output. It's a pretty safe bet if MP were still in the band these last 2 albums would be very different. DT is in a happy place, and MP is now in a happy place and all parties seem to creating music that make them happy. I won't be holding my breath waiting for MP to be on stage with DT ever again. IF anything were to happen with those guys, the closest I would guess would be LTE.
I'd actually put some money on an LTE thing happening. From what I've seen of the situation, two of the guys are still perfectly cool with MP, and two of them seem to want nothing whatsoever to do with him. Thankfully for us, the two cool ones are a part of LTE. Given a little more time, I suspect they'd be happy to jam together. My only question would be whether or not JP wanted to take 2 months out of his non-DT time to make it happen. JR always seems pretty willing to do outside stuff.
As for playing MP themed stuff, I think it's a moot point. As they produce more and more MM era music, they'll play less and less (relatively speaking) old era stuff. They're always going to play some, but as the amount decreases, the catalogue increases. Four albums from now they'll be picking 5 old songs rather than ten now, so playing anything remotely contentious just won't be necessary.
I'm not so sure how cool things are between JP and MP. I don't think JP is over Mike leaving, and I think Mike is still a little hurt that they didn't let him back in the band when he asked to come back.
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I seem to recall reading that they'll occasionally exchange cordial emails. That's not to say that they're going to jump into bed with each other, but I gather that relationships are more strained that damaged.
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I'm not so sure how cool things are between JP and MP. I don't think JP is over Mike leaving, and I think Mike is still a little hurt that they didn't let him back in the band when he asked to come back.
To be fair though - according to JP - he asked to be let in the band *after* MM was already in the band AND they'd worked out all the legal stuff with regards to changing members and what-not and JP was reportedly like " Are you serious? ? "
:lol
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Mike Portnoy
Very nice to see and spend some time with my ol pal Jordan tonight --->
(https://scontent-a-lga.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/1459940_698474203503558_2032620187_n.jpg)
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I was really happy to see this picture. Whether or not MP is in the band it's nice to see them getting along. No reason they can't still work together on other projects like LTE in the future. Hopefully will see more pictures of him in the future with some of the other members.
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:D Very nice. Where was this?
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:D Very nice. Where was this?
At the Rudess Morgenstein show in Phili according to JR. I agree, it was very nice to see this picture, at least for me.
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Great to see!
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That made my day
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Seeing them both smile... brings tears to my eyes
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Seeing them both smile... brings tears to my eyes
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Really cool picture! Happy to see that!
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I feel like the girl in the Luna park DVD :)
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MP looks so cool with that straight hair x___x
JR's hair looks so cool during SDOIT ::)
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Seeing them both smile... brings tears to my eyes
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The Great Debate (which they probably will never include in the setlist again)
Why wouldn't they include that in a setlist? There is a video of MM playing TGD live.
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The Great Debate (which they probably will never include in the setlist again)
Why wouldn't they include that in a setlist? There is a video of MM playing TGD live.
JP said the audience reaction to TGD on the ADTOE tour wasn't too excited, which is why they stopped playing it.
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That's a real shame. It's my favourite song off SDOIT.
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That's a real shame. It's my favourite song off SDOIT.
This, I saw the song live years ago and it was awesome.
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Portnoy, my man. How are you doing, bro ?
Since you've been gone, I've never felt this alone
Going to see DT next month, I wish I'd see you too
Where ever you are, I just hope that you miss me too
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Dude...let it go.
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Dude...let it go.
Ok...... *Dies.
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Dude...let it go.
Ok...... *Dies.
Well... At least the spirit carries on, I'm sure.
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Dude...let it go.
Ok...... *Dies.
Well... At least the spirit carries on, I'm sure.
Yeah, now he's in the afterlife.
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Ok...... *Dies.
Well... At least the spirit carries on, I'm sure.
Yeah, now he's in the afterlife.
Just as well. There is no reason to live forever.
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Ok...... *Dies.
Well... At least the spirit carries on, I'm sure.
Yeah, now he's in the afterlife.
Just as well. There is no reason to live forever.
But... but... everyone survived!
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But... but... everyone survived!
Are you sure? Let's take INVENTORY!
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Ok...... *Dies.
Well... At least the spirit carries on, I'm sure.
Yeah, now he's in the afterlife.
Just as well. There is no reason to live forever.
But... but... everyone survived!
Not Another Won of these......
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Ok...... *Dies.
Well... At least the spirit carries on, I'm sure.
Yeah, now he's in the afterlife.
Just as well. There is no reason to live forever.
But... but... everyone survived!
Don't want Another Won of these? Better come back Anothr Day...or Surrender to Reason.
Not Another Won of these......
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Ok...... *Dies.
Well... At least the spirit carries on, I'm sure.
Yeah, now he's in the afterlife.
Just as well. There is no reason to live forever.
But... but... everyone survived!
Not Another Won of these......
Don't want Another Won of these? Better come back Another Day...or Surrender to Reason.
FTFY. Don't screw it up again.
EDIT: irony
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Thanks! Typing on this cell phone is an Endless Sacrifice. Makes me wanna Disappear!
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I'm just sitting here, along for the ride...
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:bosk1:
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If Mangini were to quit, I wouldn't mind Portnoy rejoining as long as:
He no longer uses an "inspiration corner"
He no longer does lead or tough guy vocals
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If Mangini were to quit, I wouldn't mind Portnoy rejoining as long as:
He no longer uses an "inspiration corner"
He no longer does lead or tough guy vocals
I used to agree on this, but after ADTOE and DT12 my views have changed.
IMHO, ADTOE and DT12 were just too safe and i guess I could say "boring".
I wouldn't mind MP bringing something new to the table.. As he has been doing on almost all DT records before adtoe.
Propably most of you wouldn't agree on ADTOE and DT12 being boring but thats just my opinion :D
I hope that on DT13 they would do something new and "dangerous" ... And by dangerous I mean something that i wouldn't have thought they would ever do..
but still, I wouldn't disagree that after BC&SL DT needed a change.
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I guess the speculation will never end. Predictable I guess given what a figurehead MP was during his time there.
I don't see it ever happening. Even if circumstances (whatever they may be) forced MM to leave DT, if MP came back I think
JM and JLB would be outta there. Too much bad blood IMO. One never knows what the future holds though...
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If Mangini were to quit, I wouldn't mind Portnoy rejoining as long as:
He no longer uses an "inspiration corner"
He no longer does lead or tough guy vocals
I used to agree on this, but after ADTOE and DT12 my views have changed.
IMHO, ADTOE and DT12 were just too safe and i guess I could say "boring".
I wouldn't mind MP bringing something new to the table.. As he has been doing on almost all DT records before adtoe.
Propably most of you wouldn't agree on ADTOE and DT12 being boring but thats just my opinion :D
I hope that on DT13 they would do something new and "dangerous" ... And by dangerous I mean something that i wouldn't have thought they would ever do..
I totally agree with you. MM+DT is pretty dang... safe. And I guess thats pretty dang... boring.
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IMHO, ADTOE and DT12 were just too safe and i guess I could say "boring".
I wouldn't mind MP bringing something new to the table.. As he has been doing on almost all DT records before adtoe.
You're not the only one.
I fell in love with this band and their music because it was so adventurous and unpredictable. MP always brought an element of "edge" to the group and was never afraid to try new things. Granted, not all of those things went over too well with everybody but at least he was trying to do something to push the boundaries.
Now that he's gone, that element of edge and excitement has somewhat disappeared. ADToE and DT12 are good records, but... let's be honest, we've kind of already heard it all before.
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I don't see it ever happening. Even if circumstances (whatever they may be) forced MM to leave DT, if MP came back I think
JM and JLB would be outta there. Too much bad blood IMO. One never knows what the future holds though...
Well then, if that scenario occurred, I would much rather prefer MP to not rejoin the group. DT without JLB would be a stretch... I'm not sure they'd be able to continue forward like they currently are at this point in their careers, without James.
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Even if circumstances (whatever they may be) forced MM to leave DT, if MP came back I think JM and JLB would be outta there. Too much bad blood IMO.
What "bad blood"? They weren't exactly jumping for joy when he left, and by all accounts they haven't been in proper contact since then.
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Even if circumstances (whatever they may be) forced MM to leave DT, if MP came back I think JM and JLB would be outta there. Too much bad blood IMO.
What "bad blood"? They weren't exactly jumping for joy when he left, and by all accounts they haven't been in proper contact since then.
MP has made some remarks publicly that might have offended some of the DT members.
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And for the record, I never saw JLB as relaxed on stage as he has been since MP left.
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IMHO, ADTOE and DT12 were just too safe and i guess I could say "boring".
I wouldn't mind MP bringing something new to the table.. As he has been doing on almost all DT records before adtoe.
You're not the only one.
I fell in love with this band and their music because it was so adventurous and unpredictable. MP always brought an element of "edge" to the group and was never afraid to try new things. Granted, not all of those things went over too well with everybody but at least he was trying to do something to push the boundaries.
Now that he's gone, that element of edge and excitement has somewhat disappeared. ADToE and DT12 are good records, but... let's be honest, we've kind of already heard it all before.
Totally agree,
ADToE and DT12 are good and solid records which I have alot of respect for, but I haven't listened to DT12 since October and haven't listened ADToE since god knows when.
Now all that being said, I definitely prefer ADToE and DT12 over SC and BC&SL, but I will agree that MP brought some very dynamic things to the table, such as the Rap section in TTT, its gives that song a very distinct character. So I'm all kinds of conflicted at the moment.
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lol, where were all of you, like, a month ago when I tried to say this very same thing? :P
MP-era DT was definitely alot more interesting and exciting than what we have now, despite a few great moments here and there.
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I don't want MP back but I would love a better drum sound. Mangini has the chops and will to give 100% to Dream Theater. It's just his drum sound that spoils it (at least for me). His signature snare is a very thin sounding one. The cymbals sound terrible as well. I don't think this is a sound engineering issue. Look at ADTOE, DT12, DT Xmas, and Live at Luna Park...Love JR's sounds, love JM's tone, love JLB's voice, and love JP's guitar sound...but I just hate MM's drum sound. I can't get into it.
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(I'm sure this has been covered but...) Yeah Mangini has the chops and can drum circles around MP, but he lacks the creativity. I much prefer a Portnoy solo over Mangini, as I do with drumming on the albums. I just think Portnoy can make the drum parts flow and mesh better than Mangini can, but that's just my 2 cents.
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(I'm sure this has been covered but...) Yeah Mangini has the chops and can drum circles around MP, but he lacks the creativity. .
I don't think he lacks creativity. If you listen to the last two albums MP cut with DT and listen to the two MM has done with them.....MM's parts are incredible....MP's parts are ho hum, nothing real 'creative' about them. The difference between those two to me are MM is like a mathmatician or scientist....very exact and technical and the parts he plays are truly perfect for that certain section or whatever. MP's style of drumming is more like a painter or poet.....it may not be the most technical or difficult to play but it just 'flows' with the song perfectly.
At this point for me....I am 'bored' with MP's style of playing....it's become predicatable almost. The only thing wrong with MM's drumming is that for whatever reason they haven't mixed him properly on either album.....but when you listen to what he is playing it is incredible....phoenominal actually.
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MM is definitely very creative, just merely a different style drummer than people were used to hearing in DT.
As far as his drum sound is concerned, having heard him play live, his kit sounded fantastic, so I'm not buying the argument that his gear isn't up to par. Honestly, for the most part his drum tones on ADTOE sounded good to me, they just lacked punch and presence in the final mix of everything. On DT12, his snare is a little weird, but its definitely not thin like people have mentioned, so I'm thinking thats a mix/production issue as well.
Even on the live releases, on LaLP his drums sounded beautiful to my ear during his drum solo, but when the full band is playing, the guitar is dominating and once again the drums seem to lack presence. The Holiday Album is pretty raw from the soundboard, and the different shows that it spans all sound different, especially the drums so its hard to comment on that as a whole.
Overall though, I'm not convinced its his gear. I honestly think that it has to do with production decisions/direction. DT did have a drummer with his hand in production for a long time, so not having a drummer's input in that aspect of the music is going to certainly change things up.
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MP did near enough hold the reigns in production, but I never thought that was bad, but now MM,s kit has no 'oomph' and the vocal effects stopped me listening to the album... I mean a little reverb is fine but it's like someone slammed their face on the mixing table and never corrected it...
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After watching LALP, I think the issue might be how lightly MM hits the drums live.
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Going back to topic, I think anything could happen, but I can't see MP coming back anytime soon. Look at AC/DC for example: they had a monster drummer - Chris Slade - and decided they wanted Phil.Rudd back in the band 13 years after he was sacked due to drug abuse and arguing with Malcolm Young.
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I much prefer a Portnoy solo over Mangini, as I do with drumming on the albums. I just think Portnoy can make the drum parts flow and mesh better than Mangini can, but that's just my 2 cents.
I get that you prefer MP when the whole band is playing, I do too at this point, but for solos? Portnoy is blatantly uncreative when it comes to drum solos, just a mishmash of fast RLRLKK until nosebleed. Just listen to his Osaka solo on the second Budokan DVD. When he involves the crowd, or when he plays together with Jordan in the BTL jam (which is one of my all-time favorite DT moments BTW) are entertaining as hell, but I rarely seen him doing anything really memorable sitting alone behind the kit. MM on the other hand comes up with melodies in his solos and has a much larger palette to make his solos exciting, engaging and versatile. I watched his LALP solo more times than any other song on that release.
Look at ADTOE, DT12, DT Xmas, and Live at Luna Park...Love JR's sounds, love JM's tone, love JLB's voice, and love JP's guitar sound
I don't care too much for the guitar sound on LALP and the Happy Holidays release, I think it's his weakest sound out of all their live releases. Mostly because of the rhythm sound, it's full of overtones and there's way too much reverb. Couple that with him overly dominating the mix, you'll see why there's so much hate for LALP.
MM is definitely very creative, just merely a different style drummer than people were used to hearing in DT.
As far as his drum sound is concerned, having heard him play live, his kit sounded fantastic, so I'm not buying the argument that his gear isn't up to par. Honestly, for the most part his drum tones on ADTOE sounded good to me, they just lacked punch and presence in the final mix of everything. On DT12, his snare is a little weird, but its definitely not thin like people have mentioned, so I'm thinking thats a mix/production issue as well.
Even on the live releases, on LaLP his drums sounded beautiful to my ear during his drum solo, but when the full band is playing, the guitar is dominating and once again the drums seem to lack presence. The Holiday Album is pretty raw from the soundboard, and the different shows that it spans all sound different, especially the drums so its hard to comment on that as a whole.
Overall though, I'm not convinced its his gear. I honestly think that it has to do with production decisions/direction. DT did have a drummer with his hand in production for a long time, so not having a drummer's input in that aspect of the music is going to certainly change things up.
Agreed with everything you said. :tup It's silly to claim that a top of the line Pure Reference kit couldn't sound as good as any other top of the line kit with proper production. Generally, I can't stand how the drums sound on LALP, but the drum solo features some of the best sounding drums I've ever heard (sans for the kick and the cymbals, good thing he's thickening them). On Happy Holdiays, they sound much thicker and are more present.
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After watching LALP, I think the issue might be how lightly MM hits the drums live.
I think this is probably true for the kick drums, i recall that he said that JP asked him to hit harder during the recording of ADTOE, and he also improved the kick sound as the tour progressed, he said that he gained strength from playing so much. Still, i think sometimes the double bass is inconsistent in volume, especially on faster segments.
Maybe his knee injury as well as the years he spent as a soloist and teacher, made him play a little differently, he didn't have to play that hard in order to fight for sonic space among other instruments. If you see older videos with Vai and Extreme, he sounds extremely powerful, but in Luna Park especially, there are some inconsistencies in volume, which might have to do more with the playing and less with the mixing.
MM is and outstanding drummer, and i enjoy most of his drum parts, but i believe that drum sound quality in DT has been mediocre at best since he joined the band. If there is one thing that i miss about MP in the band, is the drum sound. Even on the worse sounding albums (like SC) his drums sound great, with clarity, punch and power.
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SC and BC&SL have the worst sounding MP drums from his entire era. Cymbals are too low and snare/toms sound plastic at best. Still beats anything on ADToE and DT12 when it comes to drum sound though.
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SC and BC&SL have the worst sounding MP drums from his entire era. Cymbals are too low and snare/toms sound plastic at best. Still beats anything on ADToE and DT12 when it comes to drum sound though.
Are you sure about that?? WDADU?
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Hell yes, in my opinion he is the personality of DT and he will always be my fav drummer. But Mangini is brilliant none the less.
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After watching LALP, I think the issue might be how lightly MM hits the drums live.
I think this is probably true for the kick drums, i recall that he said that JP asked him to hit harder during the recording of ADTOE, and he also improved the kick sound as the tour progressed, he said that he gained strength from playing so much. Still, i think sometimes the double bass is inconsistent in volume, especially on faster segments.
Maybe his knee injury as well as the years he spent as a soloist and teacher, made him play a little differently, he didn't have to play that hard in order to fight for sonic space among other instruments. If you see older videos with Vai and Extreme, he sounds extremely powerful, but in Luna Park especially, there are some inconsistencies in volume, which might have to do more with the playing and less with the mixing.
MM is and outstanding drummer, and i enjoy most of his drum parts, but i believe that drum sound quality in DT has been mediocre at best since he joined the band. If there is one thing that i miss about MP in the band, is the drum sound. Even on the worse sounding albums (like SC) his drums sound great, with clarity, punch and power.
I had never heard that JP asked him to hit the kicks harder, that's interesting...
As far as MM's attack is concerned, I'm honestly still trying to figure it out. When you see him on something like LaLP, there are certain sections that he seems to definitely not be playing with as "heavy" of an attack that MP did, but then other times he is... Which is confusing to me because MM is such a precise player, I would think that his attack would be consistent, at least for sections of songs that called for a consistent dynamic, but there are numerous moments on LaLP in which his attack seems to become less or more within a section that usually should remain dynamically consistent.
So maybe because of that, the drums need to be compressed more on the board during live shows and/or in the studio? Which maybe could potentially lead to some drum sound issues, but certainly not all of them. I still think the issue lies in what happens after MM is completely finished playing and the drums are EQ'd, compressed, etc... and mixed in with the band.
That all being said, watching MM on LaLP made me realize how hard of a hitter MP actually was! But I am still thinking the issue of mediocre drums sounds in DT since MP left has a lot more to do with other people than it actually does with MM. I mean really, he is quite possibly one of the most talented players I have ever seen, using high quality gear, so at the end of the day I have to think the right team of engineer(s) and a producer should have no problem making his drums sound fantastic.
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The one thing that stood out about seeing MM live was how hard he was actually hitting the drums.
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I hope it happens at some point, don't really see it becoming permanent. Maybe in 2015 for a 30th reunion show. So yes I would like to see it, but am very happy I get to see MP in all his side projects and his awesome new band The Winery Dogs. I give the current lineup 2 more studio albums before Mike burns out or Jordan decides to bail. That does not really have anything to do with wanting MP back, but I guess it is how I deal with it and feel he may have made the right move.
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SC and BC&SL have the worst sounding MP drums from his entire era. Cymbals are too low and snare/toms sound plastic at best. Still beats anything on ADToE and DT12 when it comes to drum sound though.
I adore the BC&SL bubinga toms... although they do sound pretty bad on the recording, now that I think about it. They rocked live tho!
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voting is over but i want to add my vote too. So here it is: 158+1=159 :xbones
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Oh, Mike Portnoy. Definately my favourite drummer. But... Back to Dream Theater? Uh, i don't know... It would be great if he never left the band, or if all the guys took some years off to rest or whatever.
I think getting Mangini out wouldn't be cool, the guy is doing a good job, especially live!
So, do i miss Portnoy? Hell yes.
Would i like to see him in Dream Theater? HELL yes.
Would i like to see him in Dream Theater again (as a member)? I don't think so... Unless they keep both drummers on the band. Now THAT would be awesome!
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Yes I would.
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After watching LALP, I think the issue might be how lightly MM hits the drums live.
I have seen DT with Mangini three times live. I can tell you that the guy doesn´t hit the drums lightly at all.
The sounds captured on the releases don´t make justice to him.
Anyway although I´m ok with Mangini being in the band I would love to see Portnoy back. I prefer his music and as a fan it was amazing all the things he did to give us an extra.
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I have seen DT with Mangini three times live. I can tell you that the guy doesn´t hit the drums lightly at all.
The sounds captured on the releases don´t make justice to him.
This. He hits pretty hard. Moreover, his sticks are about 1.5 times as heavy as your average drumstick, which pretty much automatically makes hits louder. The latter statement is also very true. On ADTOE, the drum mix was absolutely horrid, especially the cymbals. DT12 was a bit better but it sounds way too much like a machine to me, which may be because of MM's super tight drumming but IMO is mostly due to the mix/production. His cymbals do stand out a bit better though. LALP was just as bad as ADTOE, especially regarding the cymbals.
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It's definitely the EQ etc during recording, but there's definitely also the factor that MM hits the drums rather mechanically. When you look at LALP drum solo, and compare that to something like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmbayHHUPcA ,you notice that MM has almost no follow-through after his hits.
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I hear you Rumby, but to me, MP's solo is boring.
B.Lee
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It's definitely the EQ etc during recording, but there's definitely also the factor that MM hits the drums rather mechanically. When you look at LALP drum solo, and compare that to something like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmbayHHUPcA ,you notice that MM has almost no follow-through after his hits.
Well, That was entertaining! :)
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Came across a few MP videos I haven't seen before:
- a drum clinic where he plays a bunch of famous beats. Collectively singing the mind-boggling instrumental part of Metropolis to the drum beat has to be one of the geekiest things I've ever seen, I love it: https://youtu.be/_j-SKPbNEyA?t=9m
- MP, Billy Sheehan and Chris Broderick play ACOS @ Metal Masters 2014. I know it's basically just a jam session, but it's painful to hear the song get butchered this way: https://youtu.be/nWGNfnim9HQ?t=9m50s
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Wow, yeah. That was not good. I started actually appreciating Billy's improvisations over some parts, because the tune needed desperate saving.
Impressively bad guitar sound I have to say.
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I'll add mine too: No. MP's time was up, and wanting to come back after they'd made plans with Mangini was pretty unbelievable.
Musically I think they're stonger without him.
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Keep Mangini for the writing and the studio, bring back Portnoy for the live shows!! :lol :loser:
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No to both :loser:
A drummer should never act like a frontman unless he is actually the lead singer.
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No to both :loser:
A drummer should never act like a frontman unless he is actually the lead singer.
Oh yes he should... You are wrong!
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:emo: Oops I didn't know.
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:emo: Oops I didn't know.
:lol
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No to both :loser:
A drummer should never act like a frontman unless he is actually the lead singer.
Check this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ItZyaOlrb7E
;D
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27 million views !!!!!!!
BRB - going to buy garish yellow spangly jacket and pink drumkit.
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No to both :loser:
A drummer should never act like a frontman unless he is actually the lead singer.
Check this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ItZyaOlrb7E
;D
That's just a classic :lol.
I always thought that guy should form a band with this bass guy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZBic3nD5M0
Pure showmanship!
Oh, and on the original topic, while I wish MP never left and appreciate everything he did while he was in DT, I think it's time to look forward, and Mangini is doing an amazing job, so no.
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No to both :loser:
A drummer should never act like a frontman unless he is actually the lead singer.
Check this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ItZyaOlrb7E
;D
That's just a classic :lol.
I always thought that guy should form a band with this bass guy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZBic3nD5M0
Pure showmanship!
Oh, and on the original topic, while I wish MP never left and appreciate everything he did while he was in DT, I think it's time to look forward, and Mangini is doing an amazing job, so no.
"Amazing job"? That´s too strong! No, I don´t think he is. I think he needs more space to do his thing. I feel like JP is holding him back a little bit.
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Voted, never replied to the thread title.
Not only do I want them to keep Mangini, but I think Mike Portnoy was absolutely right to leave. He'd made all the Dream Theater music he wanted to, and he was clearly tired of it. I think the stuff he's doing now will give him more joy in the long term than staying with DT would have, and I think the music DT are making is refreshed in a way it wouldn't have been if nothing had changed and Mike Portnoy had stayed in his role as creative director.
I think there are ways he could have had his toast buttered on both sides, but I don't think he's the right man for them. Specifically, I don't think he's the kind of person who'd be content to sit back and let the other guys do the arranging, the setlists, the interviews. If John Petrucci had an idea for a setlist, Mike Portnoy wouldn't just sit there and go, "Cool," he'd have an idea, and another one, and another one. If he takes that hat off, he'd only end up putting it back on again - the only way to take that hat off is to leave the room entirely.
And frankly, it's more fun as a fan, now. There are things Mike did that were excellent that they don't do as much now, and there are things the band do now that Mike's band would never have done - but I think weariness is infectious, just as enthusiasm. He never seemed the sort to walk away from the band - it was and remains clear that he saw it as his baby - but the decision made a lot of sense in retrospect. Tired interviews, the Wither video was about how much touring sucked. People would ask him to describe the new album (BCSL), and he'd just say it was the tenth Dream Theater album! I think the BCSL era was a portrait of a man who'd realised that Dream Theater meant a lot less to him than it used to. The flip side, of course, is that his interviews in the ADToE era painted a portrait of a man who hadn't realised just how much DT still meant - but, I think it would have been the wrong choice to stay.
Mike Portnoy did good, but DT needed new vigour, and MP needed new inspiration. I'm sure there's still a bit of a twinge, "Hey, that's my band, they're releasing albums I have nothing to do with," but they've both got what they needed, even if it wasn't something they thought they wanted. I think Mike Portnoy rejoining Dream Theater would be a huge, huge, huge mistake for both parties.
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Voted, never replied to the thread title.
Not only do I want them to keep Mangini, but I think Mike Portnoy was absolutely right to leave. He'd made all the Dream Theater music he wanted to, and he was clearly tired of it. I think the stuff he's doing now will give him more joy in the long term than staying with DT would have, and I think the music DT are making is refreshed in a way it wouldn't have been if nothing had changed and Mike Portnoy had stayed in his role as creative director.
I think there are ways he could have had his toast buttered on both sides, but I don't think he's the right man for them. Specifically, I don't think he's the kind of person who'd be content to sit back and let the other guys do the arranging, the setlists, the interviews. If John Petrucci had an idea for a setlist, Mike Portnoy wouldn't just sit there and go, "Cool," he'd have an idea, and another one, and another one. If he takes that hat off, he'd only end up putting it back on again - the only way to take that hat off is to leave the room entirely.
And frankly, it's more fun as a fan, now. There are things Mike did that were excellent that they don't do as much now, and there are things the band do now that Mike's band would never have done - but I think weariness is infectious, just as enthusiasm. He never seemed the sort to walk away from the band - it was and remains clear that he saw it as his baby - but the decision made a lot of sense in retrospect. Tired interviews, the Wither video was about how much touring sucked. People would ask him to describe the new album (BCSL), and he'd just say it was the tenth Dream Theater album! I think the BCSL era was a portrait of a man who'd realised that Dream Theater meant a lot less to him than it used to. The flip side, of course, is that his interviews in the ADToE era painted a portrait of a man who hadn't realised just how much DT still meant - but, I think it would have been the wrong choice to stay.
Mike Portnoy did good, but DT needed new vigour, and MP needed new inspiration. I'm sure there's still a bit of a twinge, "Hey, that's my band, they're releasing albums I have nothing to do with," but they've both got what they needed, even if it wasn't something they thought they wanted. I think Mike Portnoy rejoining Dream Theater would be a huge, huge, huge mistake for both parties.
:tup :hefdaddy
Yes, agreed!
I see DT today as a JP dictatorship. The band is becoming more and more guitar-centered.
JP is the one leading the interviews, the main composer, the lyricist, the one choosing the setlists...
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Yes, agreed!
I see DT today as a JP dictatorship. The band is becoming more and more guitar-centered.
JP is the one leading the interviews, the main composer, the lyricist, the one choosing the setlists...
I don't quite agree with this. Saying the band is becoming more and more guitar-centered is a completely subjective thing to say. Dream Theater has always been a guitar-centered band. Train of Thought and Systematic Chaos are all about guitars, and people never went like "OMG JP'S TAKING OVER BEAR WTF" by the time DT released those albums. JP has always been the main lyricist of the band, aside from MP. James LaBrie stated he didn't write lyrics this time around because he felt he said everything he had to say with his solo album which is a very mature thing to say. John Myung has had his input as well, Jordan Rudess has clearly stated he isn't interested in writing lyrics for DT because the other guys are much more experienced in that department, and I don't see Mangini writing any lyrics. Ever.
Also, the JP leading the interviews thing is something completely erratic. All the guys (except for Myung) are having loads of interviews and are saying a lot of stuff. Funnily enough, I think the most entretaining guys to listen to are James LaBrie and Mangini. LaBrie has a very inteligent way of stating things, wheras Mangini offers a completely fresh perspective on things.
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I see DT today as a JP dictatorship. The band is becoming more and more guitar-centered.
JP is the one leading the interviews, the main composer, the lyricist, the one choosing the setlists...
I understand what you mean, inasmuch as JP's sort of filling the void MP left, but the band have been unanimous and consistent in saying Dream Theater's way more democratic today than it was five years ago. Everyone has a voice, and those voices are a lot more level, now. If you're seeing a JP dictatorship, I regret that your view's probably a little distorted!
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Well said, as always, robwebster!! :hefdaddy :tup :tup
As for it being a JP dictatorship, uh, no. We are now seeing a lot of interviews with all five members of the band...even John Myung is doing them again on a regular basis! During the last few years of the last decade, most DT-related interviews were seemingly either done by Portnoy alone or Portnoy and others. I get that as the leader of the band, he felt like it was his job to promote the band as much as possible, but like I have said before, they seem like a cohesive band again. And like rob said, it is just a lot of fun being a fan again! :coolio
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It seems like DT nowadays are more healthy and unified as a band. Which is pretty much the most important thing if you ask me. Although I don't really like the music they're making with Mangini. But if they're happy this way, good for them. I'll see their shows now and then, but I consider myself moderately interested, as opposed to a 'fan' while MP was in the band. I felt more musical passion with MP in the band, but maybe that's just me.
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Voted, never replied to the thread title.
Not only do I want them to keep Mangini, but I think Mike Portnoy was absolutely right to leave. He'd made all the Dream Theater music he wanted to, and he was clearly tired of it. I think the stuff he's doing now will give him more joy in the long term than staying with DT would have, and I think the music DT are making is refreshed in a way it wouldn't have been if nothing had changed and Mike Portnoy had stayed in his role as creative director.
I think there are ways he could have had his toast buttered on both sides, but I don't think he's the right man for them. Specifically, I don't think he's the kind of person who'd be content to sit back and let the other guys do the arranging, the setlists, the interviews. If John Petrucci had an idea for a setlist, Mike Portnoy wouldn't just sit there and go, "Cool," he'd have an idea, and another one, and another one. If he takes that hat off, he'd only end up putting it back on again - the only way to take that hat off is to leave the room entirely.
And frankly, it's more fun as a fan, now. There are things Mike did that were excellent that they don't do as much now, and there are things the band do now that Mike's band would never have done - but I think weariness is infectious, just as enthusiasm. He never seemed the sort to walk away from the band - it was and remains clear that he saw it as his baby - but the decision made a lot of sense in retrospect. Tired interviews, the Wither video was about how much touring sucked. People would ask him to describe the new album (BCSL), and he'd just say it was the tenth Dream Theater album! I think the BCSL era was a portrait of a man who'd realised that Dream Theater meant a lot less to him than it used to. The flip side, of course, is that his interviews in the ADToE era painted a portrait of a man who hadn't realised just how much DT still meant - but, I think it would have been the wrong choice to stay.
Mike Portnoy did good, but DT needed new vigour, and MP needed new inspiration. I'm sure there's still a bit of a twinge, "Hey, that's my band, they're releasing albums I have nothing to do with," but they've both got what they needed, even if it wasn't something they thought they wanted. I think Mike Portnoy rejoining Dream Theater would be a huge, huge, huge mistake for both parties.
:tup :hefdaddy
Yes, agreed!
I see DT today as a JP dictatorship. The band is becoming more and more guitar-centered.
JP is the one leading the interviews, the main composer, the lyricist, the one choosing the setlists...
There is nothing to this. DT has always been a guitar centered and continues be to this day. You cannot point to anything that would suggest there is relatively MORE guitar now in the songs than there was in the MP era.
And you do know, I hope, that taking a more active role in managing various aspects of the band is not "more guitar-centered."
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I see interviews from everyone these days. Probably as much JR and MM as JP.
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To answer the original question.
Hypothetically - if MM were to leave for whatever reason and MP got his old job back -
- do you think he'd act on stage as though he'd never left or take a back seat for a while
and try to work his way back up to being the leader again ?
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I believe he would assume total control and turn DT into a rap group like he always wanted.
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I'm pretty sure DT wouldn't survive another event like that. I honestly think at least one member (e.g. Jordan) would call it a day.
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"Amazing job"? That´s too strong! No, I don´t think he is. I think he needs more space to do his thing. I feel like JP is holding him back a little bit.
Too strong? Why? ??? It's my opinion, dude! :laugh: And JP maybe holding him back on the mix, but definetely not on his playing. MM may sound gentle and all, but the main reason he wanted to be in Dream Theater is to be able to do things he wouldn't be able to do on another band, and all he and the band said contradicts your statement, MM wants to do more, and the band does too. As a good guy as he is, I don't think he would accept anyone holding him back if he is a band member. And it's only his first album, give the guy a break!
And I don't see a JP dictatorship either. A guitar driven album has always been part of the DT album cycle with every line up. Awake, Train of Thought, Systematic Chaos and now DT12. I think DT has proven enough times already that just because they release an album in a certain way doesn't mean it's going to be their style from now on. Awake was followed by FII, ToT had Octavarium, and ADTOE had very upfront keyboards presence, and JR is still there, just not taking the lead so often.
And to answer to robwebster: to rephrase what I said more accurately, I wish MP didn't felt so burnt with DT that he felt the need to leave, and wish it wasn't what it took to refresh both the band and himself, but of course I think in the end everything was for the best, and I'm more than happy with the way things are. I certainly wouldn't want him to stay out of obligation.
Him coming back wouldn't restart everything to the point it was before, the balance of power is completely changed now, they proved they can handle everything just fine and the band found a completely new dynamic. Even if he came back, he would HAVE TO adjust to that new dynamic, he is no position of claiming leadership anymore. Of course, I think we have more chances of seeing JMX without a bass than MP coming back.
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- a drum clinic where he plays a bunch of famous beats. Collectively singing the mind-boggling instrumental part of Metropolis to the drum beat has to be one of the geekiest things I've ever seen, I love it: https://youtu.be/_j-SKPbNEyA?t=9m
I'm laughing so hard at the audience trying to sing the bass solo. :rollin
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I see DT today as a JP dictatorship. The band is becoming more and more guitar-centered.
JP is the one leading the interviews, the main composer, the lyricist, the one choosing the setlists...
This is only vaguely true.
Before MP left, JP was the clear second-in-command of the group. But it's not really a reach to say it was a dysfunctional dynamic. MP controlled the business/PR side in a way that JLB and JR have openly said was uncomfortable. And the music side had become stagnant. When you read interviews about the last two albums, you see stuff about how JR wanted more space in the keyboard mix of ADTOE, the bass on DT12 being a focal point, and JLB getting more control over his singing. The thing is, these kinds of things were issues in DTs music for years, but they simply weren't being talked about or addressed before MP left.
So yeah, JP's the undisputed leader of DT now. No fan who's even remotely educated would disagree. But he's also given everyone else a lot more room to breathe.
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^ I agree, JP is the leader and is the best man for the job too so it makes sense on all levels. From what I've read MP was something of a bully. If he would like to be even more like Neil Peart maybe he should learn a little modesty and less ego maniac control freakery!
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^ I agree, JP is the leader and is the best man for the job too so it makes sense on all levels. From what I've read MP was something of a bully. If he would like to be even more like Neil Peart maybe he should learn a little modesty and less ego maniac control freakery!
I think you've been reading this forum too much.
I was hoping that in MP's absence it would become a band producer situation, rather than down from 2 producers to 1 (keep in mind it was both JP and MP producing before, not MP being some kind of one man band).
DT12 and LALP were both overwhelmed by guitars in the mix, and at the expense of the keys. The last couple of albums with MP also had overly loud guitars, but JP was a producer on those too.
This is why I'd love to hear them with an outside producer entirely.
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I never seen Portnoy as a bully, I always pictured him of being very strong headed and extremely vocal to what he wants to the point of smothering the others, but never on purpose or with bad intentions, just with a too strong one sided sense of what needs to be done and how. And let's face it, the other guys let him gain leadership, otherwise DT or MP wouldn't have lasted as long. Even JP said when the break up occurred "every DT member contributes as much as he wants". I never read Lifting Shadows, but I don't picture MP as a tyrant but more of a hard person to discuss, to the point of the others choosing to shut up and go along with it rather than facing him.
But let's be clear: I've never seen a relationship problem of any kind where all the blame is only one side or person. Yes, MP is who he is, but he became "Mr. Dream Theater" only because the others let him. I'm pretty sure he was much of a more team member when KM was in the band.
As a leader, I'm pretty sure JP is every bit as strong headed as Mike, but with a lot more talent for diplomacy and negotiating skills. I never seen DT as being lead by MP but more of the result of a give and take between him and JP, and now that void was filled one part by JP increasing his leadership, but the other part by the rest of the guys rising to the challenge as well, which is very good.
At least that's how I see it from a complete outsider, I'm aware I could be dead wrong about everything since you never really know unless you're there.
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But let's be clear: I've never seen a relationship problem of any kind where all the blame is only one side or person.
I have.....many many times. I do completely get where you're coming from. I really do. I would agree that in many cases blame lays on both sides to varying degrees. But the notion that it always takes two to tango can be a little unfair. There are people out there that are so highly egotistical and manipulative that ultimately a breakdown is entirely down to that one individual. You can tell because on the other side of the fence is a shell of a quivering wreck where a person used to be. Sorry. Bit OT.
However, I absolutely would not say MP was like that. I think you're right in that he was just very headstrong and I would say got a little obsessed with DT as his "baby".
I was thrilled when MM came in. I've been a bit of a fan since I heard him on Waiting for the Punchline by Extreme back in '95. I still have an audio cassette of the set Extreme did at Donnington in the UK in '94. The drum solo that MM did was pretty mind blowing. His double bass was insanely fast! Now the funny thing is, even at that young age I remember thinking "this guy would fit DT like a glove!" But, MP didn't need replacing. I had no problem with MP.
When MP left the first thing I said to my bro was "they need to get Mangini". Now, I really liked ADTOE and thought DT XII was ok. But, I listen back to scenes, watch old vids of MP with DT. I dunno...........I don't see how he ever could come back. I can't say I'd ever particularly want it. But there is something a bit unquantifiable about MPs drumming. He has some sort of swagger. I do miss his drumming.
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I have.....many many times. I do completely get where you're coming from. I really do. I would agree that in many cases blame lays on both sides to varying degrees. But the notion that it always takes two to tango can be a little unfair. There are people out there that are so highly egotistical and manipulative that ultimately a breakdown is entirely down to that one individual. You can tell because on the other side of the fence is a shell of a quivering wreck where a person used to be. Sorry. Bit OT.
Well, I'd have to correct any kind and replace it with adults with equal "power" sort to speak. Obviously a boss/employee or a parent/kid is completely different for example. When it comes to the case you say, it can happen, but it's extremely rare. Of course there's always one side who pushes more than the other, and I'm not talking about the breakdown, but the multiple reasons behind it. In DT case there wasn't a breakdown, not al least until after the break, which is kind of ironic, but there were problems. I'm just saying that those problems 9 out of 10 cases there are at least a little on both sides, even if it is 99%/01%. Of course, after one side recognizes its part and makes a real effort to change but the other doesn't, it's all 100% on the other side. And breakdowns aren't bad per se, it's actually the solution in a lot of cases, as hard as it can be to get out. In a band like DT it's even more complicated as there are multiple sides.
But let's not get it into a completely side discussion. It's an interesting debate, but for a different forum. :lol I hope I made my point across, god, I suck in this language. :facepalm:
The keys/guitar mix in ADTOE was good IMHO, needed more bass and drums and it was perfect. I agree that this latest two releases have been too on the guitar side, but they sort of overcompensated for it on the Christmas release. Which was good to hear, since it shows that they are aware there's an issue about it. I wonder how the shows actually sound... But I agree that a person outside the band calling those shots would most likely get better results. I&W, Awake and FII all sound better(for their time) than anything they've released afterwards, even if they are not perfect.
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Live audio is worse than LaLP in terms of cranked guitars.
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^ I agree, JP is the leader and is the best man for the job too so it makes sense on all levels. From what I've read MP was something of a bully. If he would like to be even more like Neil Peart maybe he should learn a little modesty and less ego maniac control freakery!
You're 100% right....
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Portnoy's personal demons and flaws were a big part of who DT were, and he's a huge reason some of the older albums are so good. However, I think that the band did start to get very laggy and directionless in the latter albums of his tenure, and they've been hugely revitalised since Mangini appeared. Turn up Mangini's drums in the mix, and move on. Portnoy was amazing, but so was Kevin Moore, and the band continued to produce great work when he left.
When Portnoy left, the band were alright, because we believed, that after he'd gone, the spirit of DT carried on.
ADTOE and DT12 are good records, but... let's be honest, we've kind of already heard it all before.
I think we could say this about every post-SDOIT album DT have made, so it's hard for me to place it as a criticism of the Mangini era. The band have their own style which they don't depart from, and that's been the way since a good portion of Portnoy's era. Hell, I'd argue the band haven't done anything hugely experimental since Awake. Were Black Clouds and Systematic Chaos really bold new directions for the band?
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I don't think you can say that DT just has one style from which they never deviate. They certainly have their core sound but each album is very much its own entity. I don't think you can say ADTOE and TOT and SDOIT and FII are all albums of identical style.
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While this thread is seeing another revival:
HAPPY BIRTHDAY, MIKE PORTNOY!
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I meant that they haven't offered any big stylistic surprises since 6DOIT, and I think that's fair. The darker songs on Train of Thought evoke the sound of The Glass Prison, and are a reaction to its live popularity. Their albums since have all been various reworkings of styles they've already tried.
This is absolutely fine, and how most bands operate at this stage of their career. I'm not expecting DT to reinvent the wheel and genre, which they did with Images and Words or Awake, which were at the forefront of what prog metal could achieve. Now they're just a reliably entertaining band, rather than musical innovators, and there's no shame in that.
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While this thread is seeing another revival:
HAPPY BIRTHDAY, MIKE PORTNOY!
Wow, it is his birthday! Happy birthday indeed to the man himself! And yes, I do miss him.
Edit:
That's what I mean by keeping their core sound. But do you agree that each album has its own vibe? Like, I can certainly say that no one has any idea what the next DT album will sound like. Just like how before DT12, no one knew at all what that would sound like. However, I think they still bring new things to the table, not just reworkings of things they've already tried. The ambient/orchestral segment of IT, for example, was not something they'd really done before.
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*doesn't read thread*
I wouldn't want him back. The music stagnated on SC and BCSL for the most part. Not sure how much of that is MP, but ADTOE and DT12 are so much better. A reunion would mean a lot to the guy, though, I could see DT doing that in the distant future.
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Were Black Clouds and Systematic Chaos really bold new directions for the band?
Yes.
Systematic Chaos is bonkers. It's got massive structural similarities with Octavarium, but didn't get to be one of the most divisive albums in DT's catalogue by sounding just like all the others. It's not so mad that it sticks out in the middle of a set (except perhaps The Dark Eternal Night), but then nor's Awake.
I mean, you could argue Systematic Chaos was better foreshadowed by the stuff they did before, but that's just the nature of time. It's a lot easier to suddenly sound startlingly different when you've only released sixteen songs. If they'd followed Images and Words up with Systematic Chaos the nineties would have melted.
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Eh, it's a good album but there's no way in hell it's as bold and experimental as Awake. Space-Dye Vest is a braver work, and a better note to end an album on, than bloody In the Presence of Enemies Part 2. Prog-by-numbers.
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I wasn't saying it was as experimental as Awake - you've moved the goalposts, there - but even so, I'm not sure Awake really does hold up to that much scrutiny as a gold standard of experimentation, does it? It's a contrast from Images and Words, but Images and Words practically invented a subgenre. Progressive metal sort of existed, but IaW was deftly combining sounds that had never really sat together before. Awake contrasted Images and Words, but it did so by combining something they'd already developed with a sound that was a bit more familiar. Space-Dye Vest's there, but Lie was courting the radio stations, Lie was meant to be the next Pull Me Under - the whole album was made with one eye on fitting into the market. Which is fine, that's not something to be ashamed of, that doesn't make it less artful, but I do think you're inflating its relative ingenuity a little.
I don't disagree that ItPoE2's prog by numbers, (although Heretic achieved a tone that DT never really went for before or since) but I don't think it's fair to contrast one of the more traditional songs on Systematic Chaos with what is far and away the biggest wildcard on Awake, and I maintain it's much easier to stand out when you've only got sixteen songs to stand against. Put two people in a room with each other and you'll notice the ways they're different, put two hundred in a room and you'll notice the ways they're all the same. That's not necessarily innovation, that's just context. Let's not mistake increasing context for diminishing ambition.
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Systematic Chaos is bonkers. It's got massive structural similarities with Octavarium,
What do you mean by this? 8VM and SC sound nothing alike and don't really have, well, anything in common except for maybe the 7-8 song range thing with an epic and a mini epic before the epic. If that's what you mean, then something like that doesn't even matter when the two albums share nothing else that I would call similar by DT standards.
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I wasn't saying it was as experimental as Awake - you've moved the goalposts, there - but even so, I'm not sure Awake really does hold up to that much scrutiny as a gold standard of experimentation, does it?
It didn't exactly re-invent musical composition with revelatory structural intent, but it's the most experimental Dream Theater album, and their most progressive work.
I maintain it's much easier to stand out when you've only got sixteen songs to stand against.
...and I 'd argue the opposite. That in following Images and Words, Awake had a much tougher job ahead of it, in comparison to what Systematic Chaos had to follow. It's a good album, but the only 'bonkers' thing about it is Mike Portnoy rapping about the War on Terror, which is bonkers in the Ed Wood sense of the word, rather than the Wagnerian eccentric genius sense of the word.
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I don't see how anything not called Six Degrees Of Inner Turbulence can be Dream Theater's most experimental work.
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You've have a solid point for the first side, but the second is one big homage to various prog bands in quite a safe manner. Still adore the title song, but I'd find it hard to consider it an experiment, as such an epic is quite an expected thing for prog bands to make.
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Systematic Chaos is bonkers. It's got massive structural similarities with Octavarium,
What do you mean by this? 8VM and SC sound nothing alike and don't really have, well, anything in common except for maybe the 7-8 song range thing with an epic and a mini epic before the epic. If that's what you mean, then something like that doesn't even matter when the two albums share nothing else that I would call similar by DT standards.
It's not as neat as a song-for-song thing, but I always think they ebb and flow in similar ways. The Answer Lies Within and Forsaken are obviously completely different tonally, but they're both simple songs by Dream Theater's standards that set a tone the next tracks sort of stick to, but becomes looser throughout the album. Two, three and four have a lot in common, five's a shift (whether reintroducing or completely eliminating the metal element!), six is a greater shift, seven's a micro-epic with a split personality, setting the scene for a macro-epic that broods, then explodes, then resolves.
I've always sort of thought Systematic Chaos is like Octavarium's evil twin. The music's not alike, but the way the music moves. I don't know, maybe it's just me!
I maintain it's much easier to stand out when you've only got sixteen songs to stand against.
...and I 'd argue the opposite. That in following Images and Words, Awake had a much tougher job ahead of it, in comparison to what Systematic Chaos had to follow. It's a good album, but the only 'bonkers' thing about it is Mike Portnoy rapping about the War on Terror, which is bonkers in the Ed Wood sense of the word, rather than the Wagnerian eccentric genius sense of the word.
I think Wagnerian eccentric genius is a bit of a stretch for any phase of Dream Theater, but seriously? I wouldn't have said Mike Portnoy rapping is even the most bonkers bit of that song - but hey, to each their own!
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I wasn't really slamming DT when I said they hadn't experimented since SDOIT, as most bands find their sound and stick to it; King Crimson are hardly the majority standard in that regard. I was just defending their latest 2 albums from accusations of stagnation, when I don't see how the final bunch of Portnoy albums were exactly breaking new ground for the band musically either.
There's no shame in not redefining their style, and sticking to what works, as it still works very well, as the success of DT12 has proven. I doubt DT are ever gonna blow me away again in the same way they did with their earlier albums, but without Portnoy they're still producing excellent songs like Bridges in the Sky, The Bigger Picture, and Illumination Theory, which are top-tier DT songs.
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What rob said. I don't know how anyone can think SC sounded familiar given some of the departures on that album. BCASL is the only DT album of the MP era that in retrospect sounds a bit familiar, given all of the ground they'd covered prior.
But ADTOE was the most familiar album they've ever released (to put it very nicely), and DT12 only has a few moments that really surprise me, and as a result both albums basically wore off on me before the albums were even released.
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I don't know how anyone can think SC sounded familiar given some of the departures on that album.
Examples?
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Really? You actually need examples?
How about listen to Systematic Chaos, timestamp - 0:00 - 78:41. :lol
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I see.
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I wasn't really slamming DT when I said they hadn't experimented since SDOIT, as most bands find their sound and stick to it; King Crimson are hardly the majority standard in that regard. I was just defending their latest 2 albums from accusations of stagnation, when I don't see how the final bunch of Portnoy albums were exactly breaking new ground for the band musically either.
There's no shame in not redefining their style, and sticking to what works, as it still works very well, as the success of DT12 has proven. I doubt DT are ever gonna blow me away again in the same way they did with their earlier albums, but without Portnoy they're still producing excellent songs like Bridges in the Sky, The Bigger Picture, and Illumination Theory, which are top-tier DT songs.
There are a lot of things in there that totally ring true! I almost agree with you, and especially with the second paragraph.
Systematic Chaos isn't always brand new, no album is always brand new and that absolutely includes Awake, which shifted its tone a lot but its songwriting discipline, not very much. The Dark Eternal Night, Repentance, and Prophets of War are three of the most unfamiliar songs in DT's discography, one after the other. Prophets of War, in particular, isn't a song you can explain in terms of other DT tracks. It's got the disco intro like... er, like Prophets of War. It's got the falsetto backing vocals of... The Test That Stumped Them All, I guess? Except not really. The riff's back on familiar ground, (though the chants it underscores aren't,) but its this offbeat song built around a steady evolving groove, which never actually takes a moment out for an instrumental section - it's vocals wall to wall. It's basically the opposite of every Dream Theater stereotype.
Repentance courts Porcupine Tree and Opeth, and is a rare long-form track with no metal aspirations whatsoever. Dense choirs of umpteen JLBs, brooding and cycling to an eerie head over increasingly grim guitar melodies. Compared to the other two, The Dark Eternal Night is more familiar territory, it's like someone turned The Dance of Eternity into a vocal song - but the vocals are completely alien, the rhythmic distorted screams are not something I ever thought Dream Theater would touch until I heard it with my own ears, and nor had they ever written a riff so growly and sludgey that those kind of vocals might ever match it. It's clearly DT, it's a song nobody but Dream Theater could ever have written, but it's also a song that they never did write until 2007, and we've never really heard its ilk since.
I only picked Systematic Chaos as one of the starker examples - I could not have imagined, in the days before Octavarium came out, for instance, that they'd have written a song like The Answer Lies Within, or I Walk Beside You, or Never Enough. Those songs utterly floored me, there was this sense of, "Crikey, is this Dream Theater?" There was also the curious layout with its ambient interludes, the Muse influence not just in the obvious places but also in The Root of All Evil, Panic Attack, Sacrificed Sons, the orchestra. They had a lot of new colours in their pallet with Octavarium, and Systematic Chaos replaced shades of grey with bold blacks and whites.
As I said, though, I almost agree with you! I think A Dramatic Turn of Events was deliberately a very safe Dream Theater album, and agree that despite playing to its own formula more than any other DT album, it sounds utterly refreshed - a change is as good as a break, Mike Mangini has rejuvenated the band, and there's nothing wrong with writing music that's familiar if it's familiar and good. On DT12, none of the songs sound much like any other song in their catalogue for very long, and the self-title is as much a statement of how much they've moved as of how much they've stayed the same: "this is who we are now" - but yes, their trademark sound is absolutely in there, it's a crucial part of the mix, and it's not something to be ashamed of. Bands would kill for an identity as distinctive as Dream Theater's, a signature style is something to be cherished, not hidden - Bridges in the Sky is classic Dream Theater in every sense of the word, it sits right in the centre of their comfort zone but it's another brilliant DT song. That's wonderful.
But I think the idea they stopped innovating at Six Degrees, whether intended as a slam or not, is a rather unfair mischaracterisation of a band that's still very creatively fertile. I don't think it holds up to much scrutiny, and I suspect has more to do with popping the old stuff on a pedestal than any dearth of ideas in the new stuff.
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The only thing I miss about MP is the sound of the albums.
I listened to BC&SL yesterday then immediately put on Illumination Theory.
Shit - those drums sound so awful when you haven't heard the new album in a while...
Rob - I always considered Systematic Chaos kind of like Octavarium's evil twin too. It's not just the 8 tracks thing either.
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Really? You actually need examples?
How about listen to Systematic Chaos, timestamp - 0:00 - 78:41. :lol
Oh Snap! :lol
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The only thing I miss about MP is the sound of the albums.
I listened to BC&SL yesterday then immediately put on Illumination Theory.
Shit - those drums sound so awful when you haven't heard the new album in a while...
I still can't believe how the band approved the drum sound on DT12... This is where I really miss MP.
While the songs are great, the drum sound on DT12 is def the worst since WDADU.
Take This for the Pain documentary has the best sounding MM drums.
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I really didn't mind the drum sound on ADTOE . They just need to find a balance.
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I really didn't mind the drum sound on ADTOE . They just need to find a balance.
It's still missing the POWERRRRR
The album itself is great though. A great return to form :)
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I think the drums on DT12 were appropriate to compliment the guitar. On SC and BCSL, the drum sound is really monstrous, but the guitar sound is soft and full. On DT12, the guitar tone is much more crunchy and sharp, and I think the sharper, more precise drum sound compliments it nicely.
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Mike Mangini is a great drummer. But yes, I would like to see MP back one day with the band. He had certainly a lot to say about the drums sound and he was doing some appreciated backing vocals live. As a drummer, he is also great and a showman of his own. Maybe his ego was a bit to big and I think he did not have a great relationship at the end with Labrie.
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I voted yes - MP was and still is my favourite member of T, past and present. But he seems to be in a much happier place right now than he was in the years preceding his departure. Maybe if/when things go a bit stale with DT again or if they struggle with a new direction, they decide for yet another member change. Come to think of it, I can´t think of a band which has benefited more from member changes than DT.
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That´s why I see a JP dictatorship in the band since MP left.
He doesn´t give a damn to the bass and drum lines. All he cares about is the guitar!
I can´t hear the bass, the drums sound awful, the guitars sound great.
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That´s why I see a JP dictatorship in the band since MP left.
He doesn´t give a damn to the bass and drum lines. All he cares about is the guitar!
I can´t hear the bass, the drums sound awful, the guitars sound great.
While i have shared a lot of criticism on the last two albums' mix, bass is definitely up front in the mix, especially on DT12. Maybe a problem with your equipment?
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Yeah, if you can't hear the bass during JP's solo in The Looking Glass, or during the Pursuit of Truth section of Illumination Theory, or during the first verse of Breaking All Illusions, etc., then you probably need new ears. :lol
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Yeah, DT12 actually made nice room for the bass not only in production and where it sat in the mix, but also in the arrangements. Additionally, the drums were a pretty good volume on DT12, just the manner in which they were produced made the sound a little lacking sonically, but volume-wise it was good.
I think DT fans often forget that the drum tracks on previous MP-era DT albums were pretty loud, louder than most bands mix the drums. So just because the drums aren't as loud now, doesn't mean they are too quiet and more than likely isn't the result of who is still there producing (JP) but more likely because of who is not there anymore (MP).
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You can't hear the bass on MP albums - but you can since he left - ergo - JP hates bass ?
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You can't hear the bass on MP albums - but you can since he left - ergo - JP hates bass ?
You can hear the bass on all DT albums. People must have some awful audio equipment.
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Agreed. Sure, there are many times the bass does not stand out, but considering how often Myung doubles what the guitar and/or drums are/is doing, that is to be expected.
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Nah, come on guys. The bass being super-low in the mix has been a mainstay complaint for decades at this point. But, IMO they improved that for ADTOE and DT12.
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I can only think of a very small number of DT songs where I have the complaint of the bass being difficult to hear, and one of those is on ADTOE.
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Nah, come on guys. The bass being super-low in the mix has been a mainstay complaint for decades at this point. But, IMO they improved that for ADTOE and DT12.
I wouldn't say "decades," but it HAS been a standard complaint for awhile. TOT through Black Clouds were the prime offenders, IMO. Not that you couldn't hear the bass, and there are certainly leads where it stands out on all of those albums, but it is comparatively very low in the mix on those albums for the most part.
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ToT's bass is fine if you're using a sub, because in the mix it's all low end. But there's no mid range or top end.
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We also have to consider that JM's playing has been more of the "supporting" type in the recent albums, with less leads compared to Awake and I&W, i think it was audible most of the time, it's just his playing became a little simpler.
On ADTOE and DT12 he has improved his input imo, with more interesting lines, but that might have to do with the reduced heaviness of these albums, since JM has more room if the song is not very riff oriented.
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Nah, come on guys. The bass being super-low in the mix has been a mainstay complaint for decades at this point. But, IMO they improved that for ADTOE and DT12.
I wouldn't say "decades," but it HAS been a standard complaint for awhile. TOT through Black Clouds were the prime offenders, IMO. Not that you couldn't hear the bass, and there are certainly leads where it stands out on all of those albums, but it is comparatively very low in the mix on those albums for the most part.
I disagree. It is cranked on ToT, the majority of SC, and BCASL with an asterisk, and just right on 8V. If people aren't hearing it, it's likely a combination of not being able to differentiate it from the guitar when it's doubling (especially when JM is using a distorted tone), or having low end equipment that doesn't cover the full frequencies, and doesn't have good clarity of separation, which especially becomes an issue on highly compressed albums.
The mix on 8V is clear, and does every instrument equal justice. The bass isn't over bearing, but it's definitely not low enough to have any issues hearing JM at all, much less consider it super low. So many standout JM moments that I have no problem hearing even under the heavy guitars, like dem octave bass slides during the verse of PA. And there are more parts than I could list where the arrangement puts JM front and center without even competing with the guitars at all. It's generally not a heavy riff oriented album where the bass blends in.
On ToT, I don't know how anyone can not hear the bass. It's so in your face, beginning to end. I can hear all of the tasty fills all over the neck in SoC and ITNOG, and in the rest it is so fat doubling the guitars that you can't miss it. You could not want that bass any louder.
Mostly the same deal on SC. JM's rumbley bass shines through, and he's a star on ITPOE and TDEN. There are moments where he's not as loud, but they're the exception rather than the rule, and still definitely audible.
BCASL however, has the bass EQ'd into a very low frequency that from what I recall is difficult or impossible to hear on cheaper speakers without low end, but will rattle your sub if you've got a system that supports those frequencies. I do still consider that a serious mixing/mastering problem, as it is not correctly designed to sound equally good on lower end equipment, but for the most part, it's definitely there! It just doesn't play nicely with all equipment. That is the worst of the bunch in that regard though, and I see why that issue affects many.
JM's bass is just as low or lower on BMUBMD and TEI than any of the albums people complain about with apparent lacking bass. Other than that, I can hear the bass well on all DT albums. Is it always perfect? No, but the bass volume is the least of the mixing/mastering issues on the RR era DT albums, and has almost never been "super low".
I suggest you all either get better audio gear, or better ears. :P
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We also have to consider that JM's playing has been more of the "supporting" type in the recent albums, with less leads compared to Awake and I&W, i think it was audible most of the time, it's just his playing became a little simpler.
On ADTOE and DT12 he has improved his input imo, with more interesting lines, but that might have to do with the reduced heaviness of these albums, since JM has more room if the song is not very riff oriented.
I agree with much of this. When you consider that LTE is basically instrumental DT with Tony Levin instead of John Myung, the difference is more than noticeable in the bass playing of the two. Levin's lines are always so innovative and creative, and just scream to be high in the mix, while many of Myung's, like you said, are in the supporting role. When the bass is doubling the guitar or drums, it goes without saying that it is basically gonna drowned out a lot, since it makes more sense to have the guitar and drums louder in those instances, considering the DT signature sound.
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I suggest you all either get better audio gear, or better ears. :P
"Small?! It's MASSIVE! Get a better microscope!"
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Bass on DT12 is the loudest it's been since FII.
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I suggest you all either get better audio gear, or better ears. :P
Maybe you're the one who... Needs something smaller.
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Wut. The bass on TOT is excellent. I love that tone.
Actually, the bass on many DT albums is great. I find it lacking on SC and BCSL though.
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I'll give all the albums a thorough lossless listening when I find a decent pair of speakers for a decent price. (Note: I go by the
cheap pri frugal personality definition of inexpensive, not the audiophile definition.)
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The bass mix on BCSL is very unfortunate. Even though I've listened to every bass stem, there are still many parts of the album where I can't distinguish the bass.
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I suggest you all either get better audio gear, or better ears. :P
Maybe you're the one who... Needs something smaller.
Hm, Nope, I think my studio monitor headphones are just about perfect, especially after reading this thread. :biggrin:
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Hm, Nope, I think my studio monitor headphones are just about perfect, especially after reading this thread. :biggrin:
I don't know if I believe you. Why don't you mail those headphones to me, so that I can try them out. I'll let you know what I think, and mail them right back... Honest.
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Hm, Nope, I think my studio monitor headphones are just about perfect, especially after reading this thread. :biggrin:
I don't know if I believe you. Why don't you mail those headphones to me, so that I can try them out. I'll let you know what I think, and mail them right back... Honest.
Seems legit! I'll just require you to deposit a small sum of money into my account first to cover the shipping costs from my home in Nigeria. You can trust me, I'm a prince.
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Seems legit! I'll just require you to deposit a small sum of money into my account first to cover the shipping costs from my home in Nigeria. You can trust me, I'm a prince.
Not sure if I know how to do that. How about I just give you my credit card information?
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I can somewhat understand people saying Myung can't be heard when he's doubling JP, it's a common thing with bassist, but I'm baffled at all the comments saying he can't be heard on ToT and SC, and this comes from someone who has problems spotting instruments. Trust me, I suck at hearing but in ToT he's so in your face I don't understand how can you miss him.
I listen with headphones and the only album where I lose him sometimes is BC&SL, otherwise I can hear him just fine. Most of the times people say he can be heard, it's only because he gets his minutes in the spotlight without the guitars, so I'm guessing you all just have trouble identifying the bass or mistake him for another guitar when he's on the higher range of the instrument.
The only member of the band that actually gets buried sometimes it's Rudess(especially when he shares frequencies with JP, we all know who always wins in a guitar vs keys mix), and Mangini in the latest release with some his cymbals(or may be we're just used to the drums being in our face on the MP days), but the bass is always audible enough for even a casual listener to spot.