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Dream Theater => Dream Theater => Topic started by: Sixtease on August 01, 2013, 07:08:45 AM
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I fell in love with the 1999 Fan Club Christmas CD. I have never come to appreciate it a lot before. How did I not notice the amazing song structures, the meaningfulness of every note? (not that I have anything against their superspeedy wankery, I actually enjoy it)
Just listen to The Way it Used to Be... with the plethora of instrumental passages, one more beautiful and tasteful than the other... This is just marvellous. Which idiot could ever have had something against releasing it?
Or Raise the Knife. Damn, that song has tension! Although no lyrics have never seemed more ironical than Raise the Knife after MP's departure...
Self-absorbed exhaustion
Self-esteem distortion
Self-infused extortion
Self-serving abortion
I'll take the blame for these things that I say
'Cause I had the heart and the will and the courage to stay
Every day
I won't walk away
Reading through all the digests you show me
I notice the way that you think you control me
Doubting my future, you don't even know me
But I never walked out on you
Also this comparison amused me: You cut yourself open so people would adore you
vs. Cut myself open wide
But that's off-topic, the main thing I wanted to say was: Cleaning Out the Closet is a marvel! Keeps me satisfied while waiting for DT12!
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One of my favourite DT albums! Love every song on it, and it's a good way to listen to fresh material after years and years of listening exhaustively to the studio discography :laugh:
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I've never heard Cleaning out the Closet, to be honest. Is it available for listening anywhere (legally)?
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MMM YES, this album has some of my favorite DT songs.
Don't Look Past Me
To live forever 91/94 ( Can anyone explain the difference? Good song)
Eve ( Great instrumental)
Raise the Knife
Where are you now?
The way it used to be
Cover my Eyes
Speak to Me
Scenes ( Cut content from Scenes from a Memory)
This album(besides Scenes) is better than FII, I think, and include some of DT's best songs
Every Dream Theater Fan NEEDS it.
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Are the tracks that appear on the FII Demos the same tracks or are they alternate takes?
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So glad I own this album! The more polished versions of the leftover tracks is totally worth the after-market price on this album, especially "Don't Look Past Me".
Every song is great, and these are songs that DIDN'T make the cut! A shame that some of the FII-session songs didn't make the album while others did, but understanding the situation, it's reasonable to see why some of these weren't chosen over the more 'radio-friendly' tracks. Still, any fan of the FII-era needs this album as it's a compliment to the FII album itself, and can be used to supplement the album and if you want, like I have, make FII a double album as was originally intended!
P.S. - I won my copy off of eBay for $79 after shipping.
-Marc.
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@Yoshi Yogurt: As to difference between To Live Forever '91 and '94... Listen to the part after the solo.
@Elite: I don't know if it is available legally, nor if it is protected by copyright in the first place. I downloaded it from torrents myself. I would love to possess a physical copy though, to be sure!
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I really wish DT would have released this more widely. Plenty of bands release a "B-Sides" album in their career, half of them with remixes of album songs anyway. This is an album full of completely unreleased material (apart from songs which were released on CD singles, but that barely counts either). But alas, I'm stuck with a downloaded version of this album.
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Fantastic collection.
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Is this the one with JP doing The Spirit Carries On vocals? I've never laughed so hard at a record before or since then :lol
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I was only a member of the fan club for a few years in the late 90s/early 00s, but at the right time, as that was when this CD was sent to fan club members. Very nice collection. The demos of Cover My Eyes and Speak to Me were very underwhelming since the live versions of 5 Years in a Livetime were much better, but I remember loving Raise the Knife and The Way It Used to Be immediately. Where Are You Now was okay, too. And finally getting Eve on CD was great (I had heard it when my brother had the Lie CD single, plus it was on the live Milan '93 bootleg).
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..... Oh, I thought this was the "Coming Out Of The Closet Thread". I'll just leave now.....
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Is this the one with JP doing The Spirit Carries On vocals? I've never laughed so hard at a record before or since then :lol
No, that's Making of Scenes From A Memory. This is a Fanclub CD which included a bunch of songs DT never released, including the ones that were cut from Falling Into Infinity.
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I was only a member of the fan club for a few years in the late 90s/early 00s, but at the right time, as that was when this CD was sent to fan club members. Very nice collection. The demos of Cover My Eyes and Speak to Me were very underwhelming since the live versions of 5 Years in a Livetime were much better, but I remember loving Raise the Knife and The Way It Used to Be immediately. Where Are You Now was okay, too. And finally getting Eve on CD was great (I had heard it when my brother had the Lie CD single, plus it was on the live Milan '93 bootleg).
That's about when I was a member and got this CD. One of my biggest regrets is selling it. I did this huge CD purge back in 2010 or so, and parted with it for about $100. Someone on here, if I remember. But I completely regret it.
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And all this time when it said Christmas cd, I thought it meant DT doing rocked up versions of Christmas carrolls on steroids. I had no idea it was a gift to the fans from the lost DT archive..lol!
That's why I shy'd away from it all this time..
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And all this time when it said Christmas cd, I thought it meant DT doing rocked up versions of Christmas carrolls on steroids. I had no idea it was a gift to the fans from the lost DT archive..lol!
That's why I shy'd away from it all this time..
:facepalm: :rollin
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I bought a copy of Cleaning Out the Closet off eBay a few years back, and low and behold, it comes through the mail with Mike Portnoy's autograph on it. I guess someone had an autographed copy but forgot to mention it on the listing. Along the same lines, I bought Live Scenes from New York off Amazon almost a decade ago, and got one of the rare copies with the twin towers on it. I guess I'm just the luckiest person in the world when it comes to used Dream Theater purchases... :yarr
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I bought a copy of Cleaning Out the Closet off eBay a few years back, and low and behold, it comes through the mail with Mike Portnoy's autograph on it. I guess someone had an autographed copy but forgot to mention it on the listing. Along the same lines, I bought Live Scenes from New York off Amazon almost a decade ago, and got one of the rare copies with the twin towers on it. I guess I'm just the luckiest person in the world when it comes to used Dream Theater purchases... :yarr
Nice! :metal
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I'm straight bro
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I just recently listened to Cleaning out the Closet and there are some great tracks on there.
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It is a great unused track collection, for sure, but once the initial coolness wore off, I haven't cared to revisit it in ages.
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I have the original version as I was in the fanclub at the time. It was an amazing free gift at the time considering bands release B-side albums for the price of their normal albums. I did think it got released again though, thought it may have been Ytse Jam release but maybe with the DT book? Have I dreamed this?
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I have the original version as I was in the fanclub at the time. It was an amazing free gift at the time considering bands release B-side albums for the price of their normal albums. I did think it got released again though, thought it may have been Ytse Jam release but maybe with the DT book? Have I dreamed this?
It has not been released all together since 1999, but the five FII tracks were on the FII Demos Ytsejam release, TLF 91 was on the I&W Demos, TLF 94 was on Greatest Hit, and the secret track was tacked on to the end of Finally Free on The Making Of SFAM Disc... Don't Look Past Me and Eve have not been re-released since 1999 (though you can find Eve on The Silent Man single).
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I have the original version as I was in the fanclub at the time. It was an amazing free gift at the time considering bands release B-side albums for the price of their normal albums. I did think it got released again though, thought it may have been Ytse Jam release but maybe with the DT book? Have I dreamed this?
It has not been released all together since 1999, but the five FII tracks were on the FII Demos Ytsejam release, TLF 91 was on the I&W Demos, TLF 94 was on Greatest Hit, and the secret track was tacked on to the end of Finally Free on The Making Of SFAM Disc... Don't Look Past Me and Eve have not been re-released since 1999 (though you can find Eve on The Silent Man single).
Don't Look Past Me was released with Lifting Shadows.
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It has not been released all together since 1999, but the five FII tracks were on the FII Demos Ytsejam release, TLF 91 was on the I&W Demos, TLF 94 was on Greatest Hit, and the secret track was tacked on to the end of Finally Free on The Making Of SFAM Disc... Don't Look Past Me and Eve have not been re-released since 1999 (though you can find Eve on The Silent Man single).
Don't Look Past Me was also on the I&W demos, but sung by someone else. Instrumentation is the same, though. Of course, at this point the I&W demos are actually harder to find than CotC, so maybe that's not so useful after-all. :lol
Don't Look Past Me was released with Lifting Shadows.
True, but given how limited the release of the Lifting Shadows CD was, that one's even harder to find than the other two releases it's on! :lol
To live forever 91/94 ( Can anyone explain the difference? Good song)
'91 ends with a vocal vamp over a reprise of the "Until I show desire for revenge"/"As long as I have to die in the attempt"/"Then there is no reason" lyrics, while '94 has its own lyrics for the end(Which were among Kevin Moore's last contributions to DT) which go like so:
I found you where, they left you there, a passing word that's gone forever, and searching my memories for answers, I saw the words of a letter you wrote; you said you don't have to live forever, you don't want to live forever, and everything's changing now, I don't want to live forever.
Mostly, live versions from before Awake use the '91 lyrics, while live versions from after Awake use the '94 lyrics. The one exception I'm aware of is Charlie Dominici's version from 2004, which used the '91 lyrics.
Every Dream Theater Fan NEEDS it.
Not the easiest thing to find, unfortunately.
I do wish they'd reprint it through YtseJam someday. I always thought it was a little silly that Mike didn't do that one first; it's a lot more interesting than the making of FII.
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Being in the fan club sure had its advantages....
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Being in the fan club sure had its advantages....
For a good number of years, I'd look forward to that Fall time of year to see what kind of goodies the DTIFC would come up with for its members. I was fortunate enough to had been a member long enough to have received all of the CD's. They were definitely cool extras.
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I have the original version as I was in the fanclub at the time. It was an amazing free gift at the time considering bands release B-side albums for the price of their normal albums. I did think it got released again though, thought it may have been Ytse Jam release but maybe with the DT book? Have I dreamed this?
It has not been released all together since 1999, but the five FII tracks were on the FII Demos Ytsejam release, TLF 91 was on the I&W Demos, TLF 94 was on Greatest Hit, and the secret track was tacked on to the end of Finally Free on The Making Of SFAM Disc... Don't Look Past Me and Eve have not been re-released since 1999 (though you can find Eve on The Silent Man single).
Don't Look Past Me was released with Lifting Shadows.
Yes, that's true. I forgot about that. Nice catch. That was a fairly cool release... had a few gems in there, including Your Majesty live in 2002.
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I have the original version as I was in the fanclub at the time. It was an amazing free gift at the time considering bands release B-side albums for the price of their normal albums. I did think it got released again though, thought it may have been Ytse Jam release but maybe with the DT book? Have I dreamed this?
It has not been released all together since 1999, but the five FII tracks were on the FII Demos Ytsejam release, TLF 91 was on the I&W Demos, TLF 94 was on Greatest Hit, and the secret track was tacked on to the end of Finally Free on The Making Of SFAM Disc... Don't Look Past Me and Eve have not been re-released since 1999 (though you can find Eve on The Silent Man single).
Don't Look Past Me was released with Lifting Shadows.
Yes, that's true. I forgot about that. Nice catch. That was a fairly cool release... had a few gems in there, including Your Majesty live in 2002.
Sadly JLBs vocals weren't so great during that song
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I have the original version as I was in the fanclub at the time. It was an amazing free gift at the time considering bands release B-side albums for the price of their normal albums. I did think it got released again though, thought it may have been Ytse Jam release but maybe with the DT book? Have I dreamed this?
It has not been released all together since 1999, but the five FII tracks were on the FII Demos Ytsejam release, TLF 91 was on the I&W Demos, TLF 94 was on Greatest Hit, and the secret track was tacked on to the end of Finally Free on The Making Of SFAM Disc... Don't Look Past Me and Eve have not been re-released since 1999 (though you can find Eve on The Silent Man single).
Don't Look Past Me was released with Lifting Shadows.
Yes, that's true. I forgot about that. Nice catch. That was a fairly cool release... had a few gems in there, including Your Majesty live in 2002.
Sadly JLBs vocals weren't so great during that song
Also true...
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I've actually never heard the Lifting Shadows version of Your Majesty. Did they fix the vocals? I have the boot, and James is pretty rough on it.
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I've actually never heard the Lifting Shadows version of Your Majesty. Did they fix the vocals? I have the boot, and James is pretty rough on it.
They definitely didn't. The vocals are pretty rough.
But I still love it.
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Don't Look Past Me is the jam. So upbeat. So fun!
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Don't Look Past Me is the jam. So upbeat. So fun!
I still wish they played it live at least once :metal
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It's pretty cool! I usually listen to it in whole along the 20-minute instrumental "Metropolis part 2".
My favourite is Cover My Eyes, so energetic. :metal
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The revival of the DT The League tournament made me revisit this again (yes, I just downloaded because we don't have access to this back in '99). Now I am thinking of changing some of my votes. I listened back to back with D/T, and I am really starting to love the no-10-minute Dream Theater. :lol
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Even though they had cut it by the time they played in Philly which pissed me off, I'm so glad they cared enough to throw in Don't Look Past Me for the I&W tour. I'm honestly surprised MP never thought to throw it in somewhere as it was pretty much the rarest of live rarities for pre-MM DT (barring Space Dye Vest and You Or Me to a lesser extent). Cleaning Out The Closet should've been an album in its own right as these songs are all pretty damn cool and show an alternate side to DT. I think if they had went ahead with the double album FII, they could've had one disc be a "light" side and one be a "dark" side as the emotional range of the music is wide enough to showcase both pretty equally.
Speak To Me is a top 10 DT song and should be way more popular than it is.
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Speak To Me is ok, although it sounds a bit dated.
To Live Forever, Cover My Eyes, Where Are You Now, and The Way It Used To Be could fit in with the D/T album with some modifications.
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I would put it in the top half of DT albums.
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I didn't know this existed until years after the fact. I was familiar with To Live Forever from the I&W tour and from a bootleg tape that someone sent me, which also included Eve. I have since heard the rest of the songs.
When I first heard TLF, I assumed it was an unfinished song that they were working on and which might show up on the next album -- sort of like Puppies on Acid/The Mirror. Eve is a cool atmospheric instrumental.
Beyond that, it's a collection of songs that weren't good enough to make it on an album, and five are songs that weren't good enough to make it on one of DT's worst albums.
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Beyond that, it's a collection of songs that weren't good enough to make it on an album, and five are songs that weren't good enough to make it on one of DT's worst albums.
I generally hate this way of thinking, it's very dismissive and arbitrary. I have a LOT of "b-sides" that I absolutely love from many bands and I'm appreciative of the fact that they've been put out there for us to experience.
For a band like Bon Jovi, who write 30+ songs for every album, for sure there will be some that aren't "good enough" and that's the way those artists work and they have to think about their audience as well. They may love a certain song but they know the masses probably won't so they scrap it. But for a band like Dream Theater, who write each song with a purpose, saying something isn't "good enough" just doesn't fly.
Also, the "not good enough" tracks were only cuz of record company meddling, which is why there are so many tracks from this album and not so many (or none at all) from every other album. Dream Theater write songs to write songs, they aren't going to complete a song and then say "meh, not good enough", mostly since they aren't pandering to a popular crowd. They know what they want and what they want to present to the listener whereas the popular bands need to write "hits".
I'm grateful for the CotC CD as well as the FII demos. There's great stuff on them.
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Beyond that, it's a collection of songs that weren't good enough to make it on an album, and five are songs that weren't good enough to make it on one of DT's worst albums.
I generally hate this way of thinking, it's very dismissive and arbitrary. I have a LOT of "b-sides" that I absolutely love from many bands and I'm appreciative of the fact that they've been put out there for us to experience.
. . . But for a band like Dream Theater, who write each song with a purpose, saying something isn't "good enough" just doesn't fly.
Also, the "not good enough" tracks were only cuz of record company meddling, which is why there are so many tracks from this album and not so many (or none at all) from every other album.
There are a few things here, but I'll start with the whole "record company meddling" thing. That's simply not true.
When DT finished the Awake tour in early August 1995, they did what most bands do. They started writing songs for their next album (in addition to whatever "side projects" might have been happening at the time). They wanted to get into the studio to start recording, but the record company wasn't ready to green light that, so they kept writing, etc. This is pretty much the opposite of "meddling." They finally got to the studio in June 1997 and, because they had written enough material for a double album, they asked the record company if they could do it, and the record company said no. That's not "meddling" either. Whatever you or I or anyone else thinks about the record company's decision, it would be hard to make a principled argument that it was an unreasonable decision.
With that decision having been made, the band (not the record company) had to decide what songs to include and what songs not to include. To quote MP: "Rather than looking at which we thought were the weakest, we went for what we knew were the strongest. We knew Lines in the Sand, Trial of Tears, New Millennium, Peruvian Skies and Just Let Me Breathe were the strongest pieces that had to make the record. Initially, the record was only going to have 9 tracks - originally Anna Lee and You Not Me weren't going to be on the record. So those two tracks were going to be leftovers, and then it turned out with all the chopping that Kevin Shirley was doing to the songs, we had a little more room to fit them. So we ended up squeezing those in - those were the two that were backup choices."
Whether it was approached as "which songs are the strongest and should be included?" or "which songs are the weakest and should be excluded?" it was the band -- and no one else -- who decided that RTK, WAYN, TWIUTB, CME and STM were not strong enough (or were too weak) to be included.
But the mere fact that they were selected as the songs that got excluded isn't what makes them not good songs. They're simply not good songs, and the fact that they were excluded from FII (which I regard as one of DT's worst albums) bears that out. Of course, one could disagree (and I would say that one or two might be better than "New Millennium," but that's not saying much since I think that's the worst song on FII).
In other words, I'm not saying that these songs aren't good solely because they were excluded from FII. Rather, I'm pointing to their exclusion as an indicator of just how not good they are and, because of that, Cleaning out the Closet isn't something that I have any significant regard for. That the songs were written "with a purpose" doesn't resonate with me at all.
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The fact remains that several of those songs would have been on the album had the record company not prevented them from going into the studio when they wanted to. Or, had they been allowed to release a double album, all of them would have been on it. And in either case, they would have been deemed "good enough" for inclusion by the band.
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Not to mention that the above isn't accurate in that it does not present the entire picture. The label specifically nixed certain songs. That isn't the band deciding. That is pretty much the definition of the label "meddling."
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Cleaning Out the Closet is better than some of the regular albums.
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Not to mention that the above isn't accurate in that it does not present the entire picture. The label specifically nixed certain songs. That isn't the band deciding. That is pretty much the definition of the label "meddling."
Which also isn't to mention that the band isn't always the best judge of what songs are best or worst. Mike Portnoy once said that if the band had been forced to release 6DOIT as a one-disc album, they would have left off Blind Faith and Disappear, which would have sucked.
The songs on COTC aren't inferior because they weren't album tracks. They just aren't album tracks.
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Not to mention that the above isn't accurate in that it does not present the entire picture. The label specifically nixed certain songs. That isn't the band deciding. That is pretty much the definition of the label "meddling."
I'm curious where this comes from. Lifting Shadows (which I've read, but it's been years)? It just strikes me as odd that, if the label had "specifically nixed certain songs," the band member who has been most vocal and critical about label interference with FII wouldn't mention it when answering a direct question about how they determined which songs ended up on the album.
The fact remains that several of those songs would have been on the album had the record company not prevented them from going into the studio when they wanted to. Or, had they been allowed to release a double album, all of them would have been on it. And in either case, they would have been deemed "good enough" for inclusion by the band.
The first sentence is not a fact; it's speculation. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the A Change of Seasons EP created, in part, because the label didn't green light a full album? If that's right, then, if they had started recording the follow up to Awake "when they wanted to," we'd have no ACOS EP, and the song ACOS would have been on the follow up album. You'd then have another 45-50 minutes of material. While I don't know the order in which songs for FII were written, I believe the demos of RTK, WAYN, TWIUTB, CME and STM were done between March 1996 and February 1997. If FII had been ACOS plus the first 45-50 minutes of other material from FII, then it probably would have been a very different and, IMO, a much better album.
And yes, if, after making the band wait, the label had allowed DT to make a double album, all of the songs (probably) would have been on the album (along with some form of the mess that was Metropolis Part 2). In my view, that would have made FII worse than it is, and we wouldn't likely have SFAM.
Let's just leave it at the following: IMO, the five songs mentioned above and DLPM are not very good songs and their exclusion from any DT album is well-warranted. I gave my opinions above on TLF and Eve, so, in my view, Cleaning out the Closet is nothing more than a collection of subpar DT material.
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Not to mention that the above isn't accurate in that it does not present the entire picture. The label specifically nixed certain songs. That isn't the band deciding. That is pretty much the definition of the label "meddling."
Which also isn't to mention that the band isn't always the best judge of what songs are best or worst. Mike Portnoy once said that if the band had been forced to release 6DOIT as a one-disc album, they would have left off Blind Faith and Disappear, which would have sucked.
The songs on COTC aren't inferior because they weren't album tracks. They just aren't album tracks.
Hmmm, the 2 James wrote lyrics for . . .
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When DT finished the Awake tour in early August 1995, they did what most bands do. They started writing songs for their next album (in addition to whatever "side projects" might have been happening at the time). They wanted to get into the studio to start recording, but the record company wasn't ready to green light that, so they kept writing, etc. This is pretty much the opposite of "meddling."
The band was not given the green light because the label specifically told them they didn't hear any "hits." This was after the band had also failed to produce any "hits" like PMU when they did Awake. So instead of green-lighting them as they basically did with Awake, they pretty much forced the band to keep writing more material in the hopes that the elusive "hit" would appear. I know this because I heard it from MP first hand. That, my friend, is the definition of label meddling. Had the label not gotten involved, then you can be sure that Trial of Tears, Cover My Eyes, Hollow Years, New Millennium and Speak to Me would never have even been written.
They finally got to the studio in June 1997 and, because they had written enough material for a double album, they asked the record company if they could do it, and the record company said no. That's not "meddling" either.
Correct.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the A Change of Seasons EP created, in part, because the label didn't green light a full album?
No. It was the bone the label threw the band because they had previously agreed to let them record ACoS down the road after not permitting them to include it on IaW. It was never intended to be a full length release. And it was recorded while the band was still in the middle of promoting Awake (they had planned to do another full run through North America in 1995, but it never happened).
Additionally, the fans on the Ytsejam Mailing List learned about ACoS courtesy of a bootleg of the '93 Limelight gig circulating and petitioned the label to allow the band to record and release it. While the petition wasn't the only thing, it gave the label the extra encouragement to allow them to record and release it. The band had also figured that they would add something more, and their options were to include TLF and Eve, select tracks from the Uncovered gig, or record a couple of new tracks (likely RtK and WAYN, since they were the first ones completed). They rejected TLF and Eve since they wanted the ACoS EP to be strictly from the "new" line up, and decided to save the new songs for their next full length release. And they figured that the Uncovered gig would become the new holy grail that the fans would be pining for (as ACoS had been), so they chose selections from that show to fill out the rest of the release.
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Scotty, thanks for clearing some things up.
The fans on the Ytsejam Mailing List learned about ACoS courtesy of a bootleg of the '93 Limelight gig circulating
I still have my cassette of that show. Someone I met through Prodigy in late '93 sent it to me. That brings back memories!
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When DT finished the Awake tour in early August 1995, they did what most bands do. They started writing songs for their next album (in addition to whatever "side projects" might have been happening at the time). They wanted to get into the studio to start recording, but the record company wasn't ready to green light that, so they kept writing, etc. This is pretty much the opposite of "meddling."
The band was not given the green light because the label specifically told them they didn't hear any "hits." This was after the band had also failed to produce any "hits" like PMU when they did Awake. So instead of green-lighting them as they basically did with Awake, they pretty much forced the band to keep writing more material in the hopes that the elusive "hit" would appear. I know this because I heard it from MP first hand. That, my friend, is the definition of label meddling. Had the label not gotten involved, then you can be sure that Trial of Tears, Cover My Eyes, Hollow Years, New Millennium and Speak to Me would never have even been written.
They finally got to the studio in June 1997 and, because they had written enough material for a double album, they asked the record company if they could do it, and the record company said no. That's not "meddling" either.
Correct.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the A Change of Seasons EP created, in part, because the label didn't green light a full album?
No. It was the bone the label threw the band because they had previously agreed to let them record ACoS down the road after not permitting them to include it on IaW. It was never intended to be a full length release. And it was recorded while the band was still in the middle of promoting Awake (they had planned to do another full run through North America in 1995, but it never happened).
Additionally, the fans on the Ytsejam Mailing List learned about ACoS courtesy of a bootleg of the '93 Limelight gig circulating and petitioned the label to allow the band to record and release it. While the petition wasn't the only thing, it gave the label the extra encouragement to allow them to record and release it. The band had also figured that they would add something more, and their options were to include TLF and Eve, select tracks from the Uncovered gig, or record a couple of new tracks (likely RtK and WAYN, since they were the first ones completed). They rejected TLF and Eve since they wanted the ACoS EP to be strictly from the "new" line up, and decided to save the new songs for their next full length release. And they figured that the Uncovered gig would become the new holy grail that the fans would be pining for (as ACoS had been), so they chose selections from that show to fill out the rest of the release.
I'd love an official release of that Ronnie Scott's gig, but it's doubtful that would ever happen for a number of reasons, not the least of which is getting everyone involved to sign off on it.
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But the mere fact that they were selected as the songs that got excluded isn't what makes them not good songs.
To me it feels like you don't even give things a chance simply based on "they didn't make the final cut" and just assume it's all terrible. Maybe not but that's how you're coming across to me and if it is the case then you're denying yourself at least an opportunity to like/love something due to your headspace in that you won't like it. Period. Is every track that makes the final product, for any band, a good track? Absolutely not and it's ridiculous to even think that way just like it's ridiculous to think that b-sides aren't any good cuz they're b-sides.
1) Why can't a band have, say, 9 great songs but there's only enough room for 7? Does that mean the 2 they are forced to leave off aren't any good simply cuz they *had* to make a decision?
2) If Falling Into Infinity *had* been a double album and ALL the tracks "made" the final cut, would you know which ones were terrible or would your mindset have put you in a better place since, technically, nothing was left off?
If I had the same attitude of "it didn't make it so it automatically sucks" then I would never know my all-time favorite LaBrie track "Understand" which is a b-side from Elements of Persuasion. Should I deny myself this opportunity based purely on the notion that it didn't make it so it's automatically not worth it? I could make my own greatest hits of Bon Jovi b-sides that I would way rather have had make the final releases over the years.
TL;DR - If you've made an effort and listened to all the b-sides and conclude that they suck, then so be it, but it really seems like you're not even trying cuz you think they're automatically no good since they aren't on the final product.
My final statement is that just cuz it didn't "make the cut" doesn't mean it's not any good and could even be great but it's all up to the listener and not black and white.
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But the mere fact that they were selected as the songs that got excluded isn't what makes them not good songs.
To me it feels like you don't even give things a chance simply based on "they didn't make the final cut" and just assume it's all terrible. Maybe not but that's how you're coming across to me
Not sure where you're getting that, but it's not the case. Indeed, my comment above that you quoted demonstrates exactly the opposite: "the mere fact that they were . . . excluded isn't what makes them not good songs." In other word, they're not substandard songs because they were excluded. Rather, they're substandard songs . . . and they were excluded.
1) Why can't a band have, say, 9 great songs but there's only enough room for 7? Does that mean the 2 they are forced to leave off aren't any good simply cuz they *had* to make a decision?
The answer to the second question is obviously no. However, chances are that the two excluded songs will be the songs that whoever makes the decision considers to be the weakest songs.
2) If Falling Into Infinity *had* been a double album and ALL the tracks "made" the final cut, would you know which ones were terrible or would your mindset have put you in a better place since, technically, nothing was left off?
I'm not sure what all the stuff about "mindset" means, but I wouldn't have liked the excluded tracks any better if they had been included on what is, IMO, an album that is, at best, mediocre. For example, I think "New Millennium" is every bit as bad as "Where Are You Now."
If you've made an effort and listened to all the b-sides and conclude that they suck, then so be it
As I wrote in my last post in this thread on this subject (on 4/5/19): "Let's just leave it at the following: IMO, the five songs mentioned above and DLPM are not very good songs and their exclusion from any DT album is well-warranted. I gave my opinions above on TLF and Eve, so, in my view, Cleaning out the Closet is nothing more than a collection of subpar DT material."
but it really seems like you're not even trying cuz you think they're automatically no good since they aren't on the final product.
I'm really at a loss as to where you're getting this because, as noted above, I've written exactly the opposite. It's to the point that it seems like you're making an effort to deliberately misconstrue what I write. Please point me to anything I've written where I've said that I didn't bother to listen to these songs and am passing judgment solely on the basis that the songs got excluded from FII.
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Interesting post PF. I admit I am probably a little biased when thinking of a track as a B-Side or one left off an album. If it is good and you like it, put it on the damn album! But I know it isn't that simple when I stop to think about it.
Not sure I've ever heard JLB's Understand. Will have to check it out.
To quote MP: "Rather than looking at which we thought were the weakest, we went for what we knew were the strongest. We knew Lines in the Sand, Trial of Tears, New Millennium, Peruvian Skies and Just Let Me Breathe were the strongest pieces that had to make the record.
Yikes! PS, NM and JLMB were among he "strongest pieces?!"
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Man, Cover My Eyes would have made a much better second track than YNM.
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Cover My Eyes is :metal
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Cover My Eyes might be the most straight-ahead pop song they've ever done and it's awesome. Along with Speak To Me, I actually like the Rotterdam "Unplugged" version better.
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I'm not a huge fan of Cover My Eyes, probably my least favorite of the songs that didn't make the cut, but it's still better than a few of the songs on FII.
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Speak to Me is amazing.
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Gave some of these songs a listen again in the spirit of this thread. They are not songs I listen to often, and not because they are "retired favorites."
Cover My Eyes - Better than I remembered, but falls off after the second verse. First half is pretty good, nothing special
Speak to Me - Good song, no problem with it not making the album though
The Way It Used to Be - Better than I remembered but not by much. Still cutting room floor material
Where Are You Now - As bad as I remembered it being
Raise the Knife - First heard this on Score so that version always plays in my head over the demo version. Makes it harder to judge since I really enjoy the Score version.
In all, these are generally worse than the best songs on FII and better than the worst. Nothing that would have noticeably changed my opinion of the album either way.
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Words.
Sometimes we get lost trying to explain stuff on the Internet so let's just agree to disagree or just say we don't understand each other and still be friends.
:P :P :P :P :P
Interesting post PF. I admit I am probably a little biased when thinking of a track as a B-Side or one left off an album. If it is good and you like it, put it on the damn album! But I know it isn't that simple when I stop to think about it.
Thanks, not sure if I was able to get my feelings across. I just feel like if you go into something with a preconception whether it's music or movies or books or whatever, positive or negative, you're crippling yourself. If you think something is going to be good and end up not liking it you're even more disappointed. If you think something will be bad you might dislike it no matter what happens cuz you're already in that mindset. I don't even want people telling me I'm going to love a movie.
Not sure I've ever heard JLB's Understand. Will have to check it out.
PM me if you can't find it. It's a really chill and beautiful song with probably the tastiest mellow guitar solo by Marco Sfogli that I've ever heard. I remember seeing a Youtube video of Marco just playing it for James in the studio, not even recording yet, and James going crazy over it but I can't find the video.
This song, Understand, is a perfect example of what I'm trying to get across and I'm at least glad it was fully recorded and mixed and I was able to stumble upon it and now it's one of my all-time faves from any band. I need to remember to ask James what the thought process was in omitting this one from the official release.
Yikes! PS, NM and JLMB were among he "strongest pieces?!"
But MP makes a great statement here in that instead of thinking or having the mindset that something is "weak" or "weakest" try being positive and choose which are the "strong" ones.
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Not to mention that the above isn't accurate in that it does not present the entire picture. The label specifically nixed certain songs. That isn't the band deciding. That is pretty much the definition of the label "meddling."
Agreed. If I remember correctly from "Lifting Shadows", JP was seriously miffed about having songs rejected. It hadn't happened to him before.
COTC is a great snapshot into what could have been. I always loved To Live Forever but prefer the live Rotterdam version, and likewise RTK on Score.
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A new perspective:
Instead of thinking the b-sides weren't good enough, think of them as the ones DT wrote that the LABEL meddled with and/or rejected. So, essentially, most of CotC is more indicative of what DT wanted for the official release than the official release was which means the official FII release is ACTUALLY mostly the rejected songs as rejected by DT.
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Can anyone explain to me why the COTC demos sound the way they do?
Did they actually re-record the songs for them to sound so clean and polished? Because if you listen to the actual FII demos, it's immediately noticeable how rough and "demo-ish" they sound. So I was just wondering what they had to do to make them sound as good as they do on COTC.
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Sometimes we get lost trying to explain stuff on the Internet so let's just agree to disagree or just say we don't understand each other and still be friends.
Ok.
A new perspective:
Instead of thinking the b-sides weren't good enough, think of them as the ones DT wrote that the LABEL meddled with and/or rejected.
Except that Scotty explained that 2 of the 5 songs wouldn't have been written had the label. Extrapolating from what Scotty wrote, had the label not intervened in the creative/writing process, FII would have included "Raise the Knife," "Where Are You Now" and "The Way It Used to Be" and would not have included "Trial of Tears," "Hollow Years" and "New Millennium." Swapping out NM for any of RTK, WAYN or TWIUTB wouldn't have made any difference to me because I regard NM as the worst song on the album. However, I regard TOT and HY as either the two best or two of the three best songs on the album, so losing those two in lieu of to of the rejected songs would have made FII markedly worse in my opinion.
As I've said now multiple times, I simply don't like CME, STM, RTK, WAYN or TWIUTB, and that opinion has nothing to do with the songs' status as "b-sides" or rejects or whatever.
So, essentially, most of CotC is more indicative of what DT wanted for the official release than the official release was which means the official FII release is ACTUALLY mostly the rejected songs as rejected by DT.
I think we can safely assume that JP would not agree with this, and I'm not sure even MP would agree. What songs on FII were "rejected by DT"? I can't think of a single one.
I'll also preface this by saying that, in my view, (1) the best songs on FII (in the order that they appear on the album), are You Not Me, Hollow Years, Hell's Kitchen, Anna Lee and Trial of Tears; and (2) You Not Me is notably better than You or Me.
Again, assuming the accuracy of what Scotty wrote, and factoring in MP's statement that, "originally Anna Lee and You Not Me [or You or Me] weren't going to be on the record," it sounds like a meddle-free FII would have looked something like this:
1. Raise the Knife
2. Where Are You Now
3. The Way It Used to Be
4. Peruvian Skies
5. Burning My Soul (with Hell's Kitchen middle section)
6. Lines in the Sand
7. Take Away My Pain
8. Just Let Me Breathe
In my opinion, that would have been a terrible album.
According to Scotty, the label rejected the first three songs, so they got dropped and replaced by Trial of Tears, Hollow Years and New Millennium. Coupled with Hell's Kitchen becoming a separate song, that "meddling" massively improved the album IMO. Again, according to MP, Kevin Shirley's "chopping" gave them room to squeeze in You Not Me (which had, by then, evolved from "You or Me") and Anna Lee. That's more improvement, and I find it notable that, when presented with 10 1/2 minutes of "squeeze" room, they chose AL and YNM, not Cover My Eyes or Speak to Me.
My understanding from everything I've read is that Metropolis Pt. 2 was not part of the original plan, which presumably means that the double album idea was also not part of the original plan.
All that being said, while I can appreciate how frustrating the label's meddling was, IMO, it resulted in vastly better end product.
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To me, it resulted in a "better" product, but not a "vastly better" one. If I had been the one in charge of making the final decision after everything had been written, my track list would have looked something like this, trying to compromise and take into account both my own personal tastes and what the band felt strongly about:
-New Millenium
-You Not Me
-Peruvian Skies
-Hollow Years
-Burning My Soul
-Hell's Kitchen (but maybe rework LITS a bit to keep some of it as an intro)
-Lines in the Sand
-Just Let Me Breathe
-Anna Lee
-Trial of Tears
And with the space feed up, put in Raise the Knife and two of the others (whichever ones fit). That eliminates the three weakest tracks and replaces them with something better.
And, yes, a double album with Metropolis II was part of the original plan.
THAT would be better than either the original or what we got. But at the end of the day, what we got is still a good album, and thanks to the band, we got to hear all of those songs that did NOT make it, so it ultimately worked out the best way possible for all of us.
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Can anyone explain to me why the COTC demos sound the way they do?
Did they actually re-record the songs for them to sound so clean and polished? Because if you listen to the actual FII demos, it's immediately noticeable how rough and "demo-ish" they sound. So I was just wondering what they had to do to make them sound as good as they do on COTC.
The COTC release was remastered by their studio engineer at the time.
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I'm not a huge fan of Cover My Eyes, probably my least favorite of the songs that didn't make the cut, but it's still better than a few of the songs on FII.
I'd take CME over WAYN, but otherwise, I fully agree with this comment.
According to Scotty, the label rejected the first three songs, so they got dropped and replaced by Trial of Tears, Hollow Years and New Millennium.
Just to clarify, I never said the label rejected the first three songs. Only that they didn't hear a "hit" and essentially forced the band to continue writing more material. Just that fact alone doesn't mean the first three songs (or any other specific songs) would have been automatically dropped from the album.
Again, according to MP, Kevin Shirley's "chopping" gave them room to squeeze in You Not Me (which had, by then, evolved from "You or Me") and Anna Lee.
Not that it will make much of a difference, but actually the original version of BMS (with the mellow intro and most of what became HK) is actually shorter by almost a minute in comparison to the total time of BMS and HK as they appear on the album. If you're referring to all the chopping in general to all the tracks, there really wasn't much extra room created - the demo versions of the 10 tracks that ended up on FII add up to 82 minutes. In any case, just a little more wiggle room was created that would allow for 1 more track to be added on, be it YNM or AL, but the other could've been included without any chopping. ;)
And, yes, a double album with Metropolis II was part of the original plan.
I don't believe it was - certainly it wasn't their plan to do a double album from the outset, even tho they were writing M2. But once they had an excess amount of material because the label kept telling them to write more, then I think the idea came up to do a double album. When that didn't get approved by the label, they still planned on doing another EP release like they did for ACoS, for M2 itself. What would have also appeared on that EP is anybody's guess, since it never happened, but I wouldn't be surprised if a couple of the other "rejected" FII tracks would have ended up on it.
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And, yes, a double album with Metropolis II was part of the original plan.
I don't believe it was - certainly it wasn't their plan to do a double album from the outset, even tho they were writing M2. But once they had an excess amount of material because the label kept telling them to write more, then I think the idea came up to do a double album. When that didn't get approved by the label, they still planned on doing another EP release like they did for ACoS, for M2 itself. What would have also appeared on that EP is anybody's guess, since it never happened, but I wouldn't be surprised if a couple of the other "rejected" FII tracks would have ended up on it.
If that's true, then I stand corrected. But I thought Mike had said several times that that was the plan from the outset. I may just have confused that with what the plan became at some point in time. But I do recall that he was very adamant about wanting a double album at some point in the process.
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And, yes, a double album with Metropolis II was part of the original plan.
I don't believe it was - certainly it wasn't their plan to do a double album from the outset, even tho they were writing M2. But once they had an excess amount of material because the label kept telling them to write more, then I think the idea came up to do a double album. When that didn't get approved by the label, they still planned on doing another EP release like they did for ACoS, for M2 itself. What would have also appeared on that EP is anybody's guess, since it never happened, but I wouldn't be surprised if a couple of the other "rejected" FII tracks would have ended up on it.
If that's true, then I stand corrected. But I thought Mike had said several times that that was the plan from the outset. I may just have confused that with what the plan became at some point in time. But I do recall that he was very adamant about wanting a double album at some point in the process.
You guys probably have access to more info than I did, but I always understood that the double album plan arose as a result of the delay in recording, which resulted in them writing more material than could fit on a single disc.
Again, according to MP, Kevin Shirley's "chopping" gave them room to squeeze in You Not Me (which had, by then, evolved from "You or Me") and Anna Lee.
Not that it will make much of a difference, but actually the original version of BMS (with the mellow intro and most of what became HK) is actually shorter by almost a minute in comparison to the total time of BMS and HK as they appear on the album. If you're referring to all the chopping in general to all the tracks, there really wasn't much extra room created - the demo versions of the 10 tracks that ended up on FII add up to 82 minutes. In any case, just a little more wiggle room was created that would allow for 1 more track to be added on, be it YNM or AL, but the other could've been included without any chopping. ;)
I was simply paraphrasing what appears on MP's web site (which, I believe, discusses "chopping" in general): "Initially, the record was only going to have 9 tracks - originally Anna Lee and You Not Me weren't going to be on the record. So those two tracks were going to be leftovers, and then it turned out with all the chopping that Kevin Shirley was doing to the songs, we had a little more room to fit them. So we ended up squeezing those in - those were the two that were backup choices." http://www.mikeportnoy.com/aboutmike/faq/answers/31.aspx#340
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Can anyone explain to me why the COTC demos sound the way they do?
Did they actually re-record the songs for them to sound so clean and polished? Because if you listen to the actual FII demos, it's immediately noticeable how rough and "demo-ish" they sound. So I was just wondering what they had to do to make them sound as good as they do on COTC.
The COTC release was remastered by their studio engineer at the time.
It sounds like more than just simple remastering. I mean, these songs sound like they're ready for the album, basically. The original demos sound like they were recorded in a tin can.
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Can anyone explain to me why the COTC demos sound the way they do?
Did they actually re-record the songs for them to sound so clean and polished? Because if you listen to the actual FII demos, it's immediately noticeable how rough and "demo-ish" they sound. So I was just wondering what they had to do to make them sound as good as they do on COTC.
The COTC release was remastered by their studio engineer at the time.
It sounds like more than just simple remastering. I mean, these songs sound like they're ready for the album, basically. The original demos sound like they were recorded in a tin can.
I could only find this pic of the back cover of the album, and it just basically says they were mastered. I agree, though, that they sound MUCH better than on the FII demos release.
(https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.freecovers.net%2Fpreview%2F1%2F82dd261009781773c962581648d94ef4%2Fbig.jpg&hash=edb84b5550bec8b99ddcd6eb1094b2f9cae4da88)
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I could only find this pic of the back cover of the album, and it just basically says they were mastered. I agree, though, that they sound MUCH better than on the FII demos release.
(https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.freecovers.net%2Fpreview%2F1%2F82dd261009781773c962581648d94ef4%2Fbig.jpg&hash=edb84b5550bec8b99ddcd6eb1094b2f9cae4da88)
I can't help but wonder if they properly tracked all those songs during the FII sessions, maybe just recorded all the stuff for MP to keep, until he decided to actually properly put it together for the COTC release?
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I can't help but wonder if they properly tracked all those songs during the FII sessions, maybe just recorded all the stuff for MP to keep, until he decided to actually properly put it together for the COTC release?
I can guarantee you they did not track the extra songs. MP had given me a printed schedule of what they did each day while they were in the studio working on FII, and none of those songs were included. OTOH, there were some other interesting things that were listed - one of which was changing the key of YNM and another was working on the remaining part of HK once it was decided to remove it from BMS.
I know I transcribed it a long time ago, so I'm sure it's out there somewhere, altho I couldn't tell you where now.
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I can guarantee you they did not track the extra songs. MP had given me a printed schedule of what they did each day while they were in the studio working on FII, and none of those songs were included. OTOH, there were some other interesting things that were listed - one of which was changing the key of YNM and another was working on the remaining part of HK once it was decided to remove it from BMS.
I know I transcribed it a long time ago, so I'm sure it's out there somewhere, altho I couldn't tell you where now.
I guess it's a mystery then. But if the tracks on COTC are made from the same masters as the FII demos, then whoever mixed them is a miracle worker.
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I can guarantee you they did not track the extra songs. MP had given me a printed schedule of what they did each day while they were in the studio working on FII, and none of those songs were included. OTOH, there were some other interesting things that were listed - one of which was changing the key of YNM and another was working on the remaining part of HK once it was decided to remove it from BMS.
I know I transcribed it a long time ago, so I'm sure it's out there somewhere, altho I couldn't tell you where now.
I guess it's a mystery then. But if the tracks on COTC are made from the same masters as the FII demos, then whoever mixed them is a miracle worker.
But that's the thing - I'm pretty sure that they were not remixed, or else there would be credits saying so. Was the sound tweaked to some degree? Sure. But I'm guessing all that was done was some mastering or remastering.
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I would say the five songs that didn't make FII definitely sound better than your average demo, but they still don't sound album-ready. A bit more tweaking in the mixing process and whatnot would have been needed. Speak to Me and Cover My Eyes, in particular, both still sound very raw. Not that I ever listen to the demo versions anyway, since the live versions are 100X better in both cases. Cover My Eyes is significantly better as an acoustic song, and the version of Speak to Me from 5 Years in a LiveTime is outstanding.
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But that's the thing - I'm pretty sure that they were not remixed, or else there would be credits saying so. Was the sound tweaked to some degree? Sure. But I'm guessing all that was done was some mastering or remastering.
The process of mastering is basically just taking the mixed down tracks and applying compression, amplification, and EQ to make all the tracks sound consistent as you listen to them back to back. They already have to be mixed down properly, and basically sounding the way they do on the final release. There's just no way that's all that happened.
If you listen to the FII demos, the 2 disc version released on Ytsejam records, it's very obvious that however they demoed the tracks was very basic. Like they had one or two microphones recording them playing the tracks live, or something like that. They don't sound that much better than the original Majesty demos. Meanwhile, the audio quality on the COTC songs is dramatically better.
Even if some people with better audio equipment wouldn't call them album-ready, every instrument still sounds very clean, and the vocals sound like they were recorded in a proper booth. There's less reverb, and it all sounds much less tinny. Etc.
So there's no way they just took those original demo recordings, slapped some effects on them, and that's that. I'm quite sure you'd have to at least take the stem of each instrument and tweak them all individually, and if you can make them sound the way the songs on COTC sound, then that would be a hell of an impressive job. But if that's the case, then that would still be considered mixing, not just mastering.
Now, my experience with mixing and mastering isn't particularly extensive, so if I am wrong, I would love to hear it from someone with experience in audio-engineering. If there is a way to take a rough sounding demo, and make it sound polished and clean without editing each individual instrument, I really would love to hear about it.
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Didn’t know where to post this, but do we know if DT’s “Eve” is Eve as in Christmas’ Eve or a name like Adam and Eve? Sorry if this is a dumb question :laugh:
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I can guarantee you they did not track the extra songs. MP had given me a printed schedule of what they did each day while they were in the studio working on FII, and none of those songs were included. OTOH, there were some other interesting things that were listed - one of which was changing the key of YNM and another was working on the remaining part of HK once it was decided to remove it from BMS.
I know I transcribed it a long time ago, so I'm sure it's out there somewhere, altho I couldn't tell you where now.
I guess it's a mystery then. But if the tracks on COTC are made from the same masters as the FII demos, then whoever mixed them is a miracle worker.
But that's the thing - I'm pretty sure that they were not remixed, or else there would be credits saying so. Was the sound tweaked to some degree? Sure. But I'm guessing all that was done was some mastering or remastering.
Something more than tweaking happened. I wouldn't believe the COTC and FII Demos were the same tracks except I can listen and compare them.
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Wow. I love those demo songs and I didn't know there were improved versions of them out there. Is this album the only legit way to get these tracks? Were they ever released elsewhere?
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Wow. I love those demo songs and I didn't know there were improved versions of them out there. Is this album the only legit way to get these tracks? Were they ever released elsewhere?
The Way It Used To Be was also released on the Hollow Years Single. I'm not sure if it's the exact same version, but the one on the single also sounds clean and polished. That single also has a polished version of You Or Me, which wasn't on Cleaning Out The Closet.
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Damn. Looks like I have a couple of DT albums to add to my collection.
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This thread prompted me to go back and listen to the FII demos (I do have a copy of COTC, but it is boxed up right now with some other stuff). Going back and listening to ALL of the songs that were done during the FII sessions, I have to say that the songs that didn't make the final album really are some good stuff. It isn't accurate at all to say that only the "best" songs made it. First time I heard this album, the change in style was jarring, and I didn't like it. I don't think I would have felt any differently if the other songs had made the cut instead of what we got, or if we would have gotten a double album. This was still the slick, commercial sounding DT that was at first very offputting to me, and took a bit of time to appreciate. And after going back and listening again, I guess I'm still right where I was before: The album we got is very good; the stuff that ended up on the cutting room floor is also very good; overall, it's cool that between the album, COTC, the FII demos, and the Old Bridge shows, we have such a complete picture of everything that was going on musically with the band during this period of time.
*Regarding COTC specifically, I don't actually have an "official" copy. I wasn't in the fan club at the time it was released. When I really got into the band, it was one of those rare, coveted items that you could pretty much only find on Ebay. And all copies are WAY overpriced, not to mention that the majority are likely just bootleg copies and not an official, pressed copy that a fan is selling off. So I wasn't about to pay some bootlegger an exorbitant amount. But in the early 2000s, a friend of mine who knew I was really into DT was cleaning out a former employee's work hard drive after he had left, and found that he had ripped all kinds of DT rarities, so she took it upon herself to burn copies and give them to me. I thought that was very cool of her. And while I would prefer to have an official copy, at least I got to hear it before we basically got a more complete version with the FII demos.
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I feel Raise the Knife leaned back heavily on the classic sound of previous albums. I wish that song had made the cut. One of my favorites. I snuck out to buy a shirt from the merch table at the Score show when I heard them start playing this song. I lost my shit and bolted back to my chair. The dude behind me was totally confused as to what song they were playing, and I told him all about it at intermission.
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Along the same lines, I bought Live Scenes from New York off Amazon almost a decade ago, and got one of the rare copies with the twin towers on it.
It's really not that rare, I don't think. It was widely released and available for a while before the decision was made to pull it.
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This isn't exactly the right thread, but I absolutely love the demo version of ACOS from the bootleg "Antiquities."
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The Way It Used To Be was also released on the Hollow Years Single. I'm not sure if it's the exact same version, but the one on the single also sounds clean and polished. That single also has a polished version of You Or Me, which wasn't on Cleaning Out The Closet.
Good god I forgot about The Way It Used to Be. Captures nostalgia so perfectly.
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The Way It Used To Be is one of the best DT tracks IMO
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Whether it was approached as "which songs are the strongest and should be included?" or "which songs are the weakest and should be excluded?" it was the band -- and no one else -- who decided that RTK, WAYN, TWIUTB, CME and STM were not strong enough (or were too weak) to be included.
But the mere fact that they were selected as the songs that got excluded isn't what makes them not good songs. They're simply not good songs, and the fact that they were excluded from FII (which I regard as one of DT's worst albums) bears that out. Of course, one could disagree (and I would say that one or two might be better than "New Millennium," but that's not saying much since I think that's the worst song on FII).
In other words, I'm not saying that these songs aren't good solely because they were excluded from FII. Rather, I'm pointing to their exclusion as an indicator of just how not good they are and, because of that, Cleaning out the Closet isn't something that I have any significant regard for. That the songs were written "with a purpose" doesn't resonate with me at all.
But I'm not sure what you're saying. What's "good"? What the band likes? Okay, it's their music, and they are the only ones that can really say what's "good" or "bad", but both John and Mike have both said that they, in hindsight, like FII, so THEY don't think it's "their worst record". So nothing is "beared out" as far as I can see (well, except that you don't like them. But that's not the same as "not good", and is irrelevant in a general sense.)
I like FII a lot (except for "Lines In The Sand"; Doug Pinnick ruins that song for me) and "Cover My Eyes" is probably my favorite DT song ever, or at least top five. I can see that song not being picked, not because it sucks, but because it doesn't fit with the rest of the record. That, also, is different than "not good".
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Whether it was approached as "which songs are the strongest and should be included?" or "which songs are the weakest and should be excluded?" it was the band -- and no one else -- who decided that RTK, WAYN, TWIUTB, CME and STM were not strong enough (or were too weak) to be included.
But the mere fact that they were selected as the songs that got excluded isn't what makes them not good songs. They're simply not good songs, and the fact that they were excluded from FII (which I regard as one of DT's worst albums) bears that out. Of course, one could disagree (and I would say that one or two might be better than "New Millennium," but that's not saying much since I think that's the worst song on FII).
In other words, I'm not saying that these songs aren't good solely because they were excluded from FII. Rather, I'm pointing to their exclusion as an indicator of just how not good they are and, because of that, Cleaning out the Closet isn't something that I have any significant regard for. That the songs were written "with a purpose" doesn't resonate with me at all.
But I'm not sure what you're saying. What's "good"? What the band likes? Okay, it's their music, and they are the only ones that can really say what's "good" or "bad", but both John and Mike have both said that they, in hindsight, like FII, so THEY don't think it's "their worst record". So nothing is "beared out" as far as I can see (well, except that you don't like them. But that's not the same as "not good", and is irrelevant in a general sense.)
I like FII a lot (except for "Lines In The Sand"; Doug Pinnick ruins that song for me) and "Cover My Eyes" is probably my favorite DT song ever, or at least top five. I can see that song not being picked, not because it sucks, but because it doesn't fit with the rest of the record. That, also, is different than "not good".
I feel like I explained this sometime subsequent to this three-plus week old post that you quoted.
My ultimate point is that, IMO, the songs in question aren't very good and that, with the possible exception of New Millennium, the inclusion and exclusion decisions were well made. My opinion that the rejected songs are not very good is not at all influenced by the fact that the songs were not included on any album. However, I think their exclusion from any album is consistent with their lack of quality. And, I would hope it obvious that, when I say a song isn't good, it means nothing more than that I don't like it.
I disagree that the band members "are the only ones that can really say what's 'good' or 'bad.'" We all do that all the time. In any event, the opinion of any or all of the band members about any given song is completely irrelevant to me. Maybe John Myung doesn't think much of Learning to Live and thinks The Great Debate is the best song DT ever did. I couldn't give a rat's ass; I still regard LTL as one of DT's best and TGD as one of its worst.
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P.S. The songs from COTC are a combined 9-47 in the current DT "league," and TLF and Eve have twice as many wins as the other six songs combined.
EDIT: Just noticed that one of the wins (by "Speak to Me") was in a match-up against another COTC song ("The Way It Used to Be"), so that doesn't really count.
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Just ordered the Cleaning Out the Closet cd & the ATCO demo's... will be delivered next week I pressume. It will get a nice place in my bookcase in the livingroom, were the whole upper shelf is claimed with Dream Theater content.
Nice to have Eve on my own now and looking forward to Don't Look Past Me.
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I have not heard the COTC versions of these songs, so I really hope they make it to the Lost Not Forgotten Archives. Some of these lost tracks would have been among the best songs on FII, IMO. Especially Raise the Knife.
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I have not heard the COTC versions of these songs, so I really hope they make it to the Lost Not Forgotten Archives. Some of these lost tracks would have been among the best songs on FII, IMO. Especially Raise the Knife.
I'm with you. I think two of my top 10 or 15 DT songs are on COTC.
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Just ordered the Cleaning Out the Closet cd & the ATCO demo's... will be delivered next week I pressume. It will get a nice place in my bookcase in the livingroom, were the whole upper shelf is claimed with Dream Theater content.
Nice to have Eve on my own now and looking forward to Don't Look Past Me.
Ordered them? Where from? Unless you got used copies on eBay, I'd be willing to bet you purchased counterfeit copies that the band won't see one red cent from.
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Just ordered the Cleaning Out the Closet cd & the ATCO demo's... will be delivered next week I pressume. It will get a nice place in my bookcase in the livingroom, were the whole upper shelf is claimed with Dream Theater content.
Nice to have Eve on my own now and looking forward to Don't Look Past Me.
Ordered them? Where from? Unless you got used copies on eBay, I'd be willing to bet you purchased counterfeit copies that the band won't see one red cent from.
Probably used copies. They’re usually always for sale.
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Ordered them? Where from? Unless you got used copies on eBay, I'd be willing to bet you purchased counterfeit copies that the band won't see one red cent from.
Discogs, in mint state but indeed bought from a collection, not via the band. It's been delivered today, what a pearl.