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General => General Music Discussion => Topic started by: adace on March 18, 2013, 08:04:44 PM
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Gotta say this dude put together an epic list. Lot of stuff I have to check out.
https://kingcrimsonprog.wordpress.com/2012/05/11/list-of-albums-that-you-need-to-have-heard-to-have-a-full-and-comprehensive-understanding-of-metal-music/ (https://kingcrimsonprog.wordpress.com/2012/05/11/list-of-albums-that-you-need-to-have-heard-to-have-a-full-and-comprehensive-understanding-of-metal-music/)
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Any list with Lulu, Dedicated To Chaos and Illud Divinum Insanus is impossible to take seriously.
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Lulu is on the list. Therefore it is invalid.
I didn't read anything on the site and just scrolled through all the album covers, but how is Nevermind essential to understanding metal? How are any of those albums essential? I understand metal just fine without them.
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The list is designed to give you a complete idea of metal, including critical successes, failures, and influential works, rather than "just" metal. Did you guys even read the explanation before summarily dismissing it?
There's a lot of interesting stuff on there.
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Did you guys even read the explanation before summarily dismissing it?
I didn't read anything on the site and just scrolled through all the album covers
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I'm really not sure I understand this list. Well part of it anyway. It makes more sense as it goes on. Loved seeing Pawn Hearts get mentioned though. Has some of the darkest most chaotic sections in music at it's time.
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Any list with Lulu, Dedicated To Chaos and Illud Divinum Insanus is impossible to take seriously.
"Important critical failures are important for understanding the holistic entirety of metal. Often they inform other artists who try to avoid the same negative public backlash."
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Meh, some good stuff there, a few things I noticed;
Rush - I think Permanent Waves and at least a couple of their later outputs should be present.
Thin Lizzy - Black Rose should be added
Malmsteen - His debut should be here
Judas Priest - Stained Class should be here, as should Jugulator
Iron Maiden - The X Factor should be added
Mercyful Fate - No Melissa??
Children of Bodom - Hate Crew is here, but why not Hatebreeder or Reaper?
No Hammerfall?
Korn - The Path of Totality. I love Korn but what the hell? Just because it contains Dubstep doesn't mean you need to hear it to understand metal.
Lulu and Dedicated To Chaos do not need to be here at all
No Green Carnation?
No Watchtower?
No Halford or Dickinson solo albums?
No Amorphis?
What about more AOR stuff like Harem Scarem, Hardline, Pink Cream 69, Jorn Lande, Talisman etc.
Was there any Symphony X?
No Evergrey?
Not sure if there was any Accept of UDO?
I could go on.
A lot of those punk and alternative albums I never need to hear, they could be replaced with other great metal acts and albums that have been neglected here.
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Meh, some good stuff there, a few things I noticed;
Rush - I think Permanent Waves and at least a couple of their later outputs should be present.
Thin Lizzy - Black Rose should be added
Malmsteen - His debut should be here
Judas Priest - Stained Class should be here, as should Jugulator
Iron Maiden - The X Factor should be added
Mercyful Fate - No Melissa??
Children of Bodom - Hate Crew is here, but why not Hatebreeder or Reaper?
No Hammerfall?
Korn - The Path of Totality. I love Korn but what the hell? Just because it contains Dubstep doesn't mean you need to hear it to understand metal.
Lulu and Dedicated To Chaos do not need to be here at all
No Green Carnation?
No Watchtower?
No Halford or Dickinson solo albums?
No Amorphis?
What about more AOR stuff like Harem Scarem, Hardline, Pink Cream 69, Jorn Lande, Talisman etc.
Was there any Symphony X?
No Evergrey?
Not sure if there was any Accept of UDO?
I could go on.
A lot of those punk and alternative albums I never need to hear, they could be replaced with other great metal acts and albums that have been neglected here.
not every power metal album in the world needs to be on the list
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Great list. Informative and pretty in depth for the range of genres.
...and anyone who doesn't understand why they purposefully put certain 'bad' albums are on here didn't get the point of the list.
V
Any list with Lulu, Dedicated To Chaos and Illud Divinum Insanus is impossible to take seriously.
"Important critical failures are important for understanding the holistic entirety of metal. Often they inform other artists who try to avoid the same negative public backlash."
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Meh, some good stuff there, a few things I noticed;
Rush - I think Permanent Waves and at least a couple of their later outputs should be present.
Thin Lizzy - Black Rose should be added
Malmsteen - His debut should be here
Judas Priest - Stained Class should be here, as should Jugulator
Iron Maiden - The X Factor should be added
Mercyful Fate - No Melissa??
Children of Bodom - Hate Crew is here, but why not Hatebreeder or Reaper?
No Hammerfall?
Korn - The Path of Totality. I love Korn but what the hell? Just because it contains Dubstep doesn't mean you need to hear it to understand metal.
Lulu and Dedicated To Chaos do not need to be here at all
No Green Carnation?
No Watchtower?
No Halford or Dickinson solo albums?
No Amorphis?
What about more AOR stuff like Harem Scarem, Hardline, Pink Cream 69, Jorn Lande, Talisman etc.
Was there any Symphony X?
No Evergrey?
Not sure if there was any Accept of UDO?
I could go on.
A lot of those punk and alternative albums I never need to hear, they could be replaced with other great metal acts and albums that have been neglected here.
not every power metal album in the world needs to be on the list
No but Hammerfall do. Like them or not, they were very inportant for power metal and one of the originators of the modern style.
Green Carnation - Light of Day should be here because like others on the list like Crimson and Dopesmoker, it should be represented.
Evergrey should at least have In Search of Truth on here too, an important modern metal prog album.
Mercyful Fate Melissa is a black metal classic.
Watchtower's Control and Denied is a classic and important technical prog metal lbum.
Amorphis are an important modern power/goth metal act
etc.
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Meh, some good stuff there, a few things I noticed;
Malmsteen - His debut should be here
Judas Priest - Stained Class should be here
No Halford or Dickinson solo albums?
This is all that needs to be said. Especially the Dickinson and Malmsteen albums. They are absolutely critical to the genre no matter what point someone is trying to make. One could argue that there are better Priest albums, but Accident of Birth and Chemical Wedding are the best metal albums of their era and should be part of any list dealing with metal.
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Night of the Stormrider should get a nod. I know Iced Earth wasnt/isn't of great importance to metal overall, but at least they're metal unlike fucking Nirvana.
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Yeah, I felt Something Wicked being the only IE album represented was a bit stale. Stormrider, Dark Saga and Burnt Offerings should be acknolwleged.
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For some reason Light of Day, Day of Darkness isn't something I listen to in a "metal" mindset if you catch my drift. Then again, lots of albums that have literally no connection to metal no matter how you spin it are on there, so I don't know what to believe. :lol I'm sure the guy making it sees something I don't though. :)
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I understand but in regards to it's novelty regarding length and its metal nature, it should be here over dozens of these albums.
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I think it's pretty typical of internet folk to respond to something like this by saying "oh man, look how many albums they left off the list! I'm so much smarter than these guys!" Meanwhile the people/person who wrote this must have spent weeks putting together a fantastic list that looks back on the history of metal. Whether you guys like it or not, this is a really well-informed, and well-made list. Nearly every niche metal and even most related genres is included, with nearly all of it's well known successes and failures. I bet none of you guys even read the descriptions.
Also not all of your favorite artists deserve 4 albums in a list like this.
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Let me guess what's in this thread without reading it.
A list of someone's opinion of what's important followed by people insisting that what they think is important should be on the other person's purely subjective list?
:rollin
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Let me guess what's in this thread without reading it.
A list of someone's opinion of what's important followed by people insisting that what they think is important should be on the other person's purely subjective list?
:rollin
Basically. I mean there's lots I couldn't see connections in, but lots of music is taken in differently by different people, so I can give this guy the benefit of that. I have respect for anyone taking on such an endeavour myself.
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Let me guess what's in this thread without reading it.
A list of someone's opinion of what's important followed by people insisting that what they think is important should be on the other person's purely subjective list?
:rollin
You missed half of it, so you only get half a cookie. People aren't reading the pretext and jumping to conclusions based on their own preconceived notions as well. Still, half a cookie is better than no cookie.
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I think it's pretty typical of internet folk to respond to something like this by saying "oh man, look how many albums they left off the list! I'm so much smarter than these guys!" Meanwhile the people/person who wrote this must have spent weeks putting together a fantastic list that looks back on the history of metal. Whether you guys like it or not, this is a really well-informed, and well-made list. Nearly every niche metal and even most related genres is included, with nearly all of it's well known successes and failures. I bet none of you guys even read the descriptions.
Also not all of your favorite artists deserve 4 albums in a list like this.
But in reality, I feel the author is being just as subjective as anyone else. But the list itself has a good range.
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Not sure if I saw the whole list, but I thought it was pretty good, although I'd change some choices and put some in, but it's a good list nonetheless
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Looking at it again, I think adding Lulu and Dedicated to Chaos is simply to take the piss. No one could seriously think you need these two album to understand metal. I understand they could possibly be looking at it in the aspect of what a once great metal band is doing now, but I don't buy it.
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I think it's a good list - it represents all the genres of metal and the subgenres of music that have directly influenced them through albums and that is not a bad way to go if you want to "understand" metal in whole, subgenre by subgenre. Of course, in order to be REALLY comprehensive, it should include around 1000 albums or something. And they've overkilled it with, what, 10 djent albums from 2011 and 2012? But yeah it's a good way to look at metal.
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Pretty good list. Lulu was in the "failures" section, so I don't see why people are griping about it being on there.
My gripe is that they didn't have Bergtatt by Ulver, which is definitely the most influential Ulver album.
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No A7X.
Why should I take that list seriously?
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ITT: A solid rationale as to why lists like this are pointless :lol
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Hey, thanks for the suggestions for additions. I've stuck most of them in it now.
Anybody know more about Black Metal.. most Black Metal fans I've asked for help so far are too rude and hostile to provide much help.
I'd like to know about post-black metal especially.
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I, for one, am pleased that Stryper made the list.
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Hey, thanks for the suggestions for additions. I've stuck most of them in it now.
Anybody know more about Black Metal.. most Black Metal fans I've asked for help so far are too rude and hostile to provide much help.
I'd like to know about post-black metal especially.
Here's a great guide with plenty of great bands. Hope it's what you're looking for.
https://www.last.fm/tag/post-black%20metal (https://www.last.fm/tag/post-black%20metal)
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Hey, thanks for the suggestions for additions. I've stuck most of them in it now.
Anybody know more about Black Metal.. most Black Metal fans I've asked for help so far are too rude and hostile to provide much help.
I'd like to know about post-black metal especially.
You should really add at least one other Agalloch album. Ashes would be my choice but any of them are good. As I said before, Bergtatt is one of the most influential black metal albums out there, so you should add that if you haven't
For other genres, you should consider adding Fortress by Protest the Hero, because if Scurrilous made the list, fortress should be on there.
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Looking at it again, I think adding Lulu and Dedicated to Chaos is simply to take the piss. No one could seriously think you need these two album to understand metal. I understand they could possibly be looking at it in the aspect of what a once great metal band is doing now, but I don't buy it.
They were mentioned as an example of "failure" - as was IM's X Factor (so it was mentioned! :biggrin:)
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I understand but in regards to it's novelty regarding length and its metal nature, it should be here over dozens of these albums.
But Light of Day, Day of Darkness IS on this list..
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There are some pretty shitty album covers on that list.
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I just noticed Wishbone Ash's 'Argus' on the list. YES! I love that album.
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I understand but in regards to it's novelty regarding length and its metal nature, it should be here over dozens of these albums.
But Light of Day, Day of Darkness IS on this list..
It is?
Looking at it again, I think adding Lulu and Dedicated to Chaos is simply to take the piss. No one could seriously think you need these two album to understand metal. I understand they could possibly be looking at it in the aspect of what a once great metal band is doing now, but I don't buy it.
They were mentioned as an example of "failure" - as was IM's X Factor (so it was mentioned! :biggrin:)
Hey, that's enough out of you. :D
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Bad list. most metal is easy to understand aniways. and it has lulu in it.
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Bad list. most metal is easy to understand aniways. and it has lulu in it.
You do realize they're saying (nicely) that Lulu was a piece of shit, right?
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doesnt matter. Lulu doesnt worth mentioning. :D
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So you felt that you had to mention that it shouldn't be on the list? Nice.
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Last time I checked, this is a message board. Stupid opinions or not, all are welcomed (within the rules of course).
:tup
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Last time I checked, this is a message board. Stupid opinions or not, all are welcomed (within the rules of course).
:tup
I wasn't saying anything about his opinion, I was just stating that he he mentioned it while saying it shouldn't be mention, and me, being a hair splitting asshole, pointed it out because I do that even when I know it's a terrible idea.
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Amount of Marilyn Manson albums = 3.
Amount of both Ministry and Nine Inch Nails albums = 3.
lol.
Got to check out Skinny Puppy sometime.
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To be fair, Mechanical Animals and Holy Wood are really, really good.
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Psalm 69 and The Downward Spiral are godlike, so I'm happy they're included. Haven't yet heard The Fragile.
Manson is on my list, too. Though I don't know much other than Sweet Dreams and The Fight Song. I really like the latter.
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Y'know, it's amazing how many of those I have owned over the years.
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Amount of Marilyn Manson albums = 3.
Amount of both Ministry and Nine Inch Nails albums = 3.
lol.
Got to check out Skinny Puppy sometime.
You should, they're great. On the more abrasive side of industrial music though I warn you.
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I understand but in regards to it's novelty regarding length and its metal nature, it should be here over dozens of these albums.
But Light of Day, Day of Darkness IS on this list..
It is?
Yes, it is.
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suggested additions in the prog portion:
-Pain of Salvation
-King's X
-dredg
-Marillion
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500 albums...? Really? I need to listen to 500 albums to understand metal? Bullshit.
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I guess I don't understand metal...
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suggested additions in the prog portion:
-Pain of Salvation
-King's X
-dredg
-Marillion
Oh my goodness, I can't believe I forgot Marillion. There's three Marillion records on my wall above the computer.
Thats the problem. I keep thinking I've added stuff that I haven't. That and the list started off with a one album per band rule that I dropped after a month, but I forget who I did and didnt fix sometimes.
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One glaring omission is KrotchRaut. HOW CAN YOU FORGET THEM?!
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One glaring omission is Thundersword. HOW CAN YOU FORGET THEM?!
Fixed.
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no
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I understand but in regards to it's novelty regarding length and its metal nature, it should be here over dozens of these albums.
But Light of Day, Day of Darkness IS on this list..
It is?
Yes, it is.
oh
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I understand but in regards to it's novelty regarding length and its metal nature, it should be here over dozens of these albums.
But Light of Day, Day of Darkness IS on this list..
It is?
Yes, it is.
oh
You're both right. I added it after your suggestion.
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Amount of Marilyn Manson albums = 3.
Amount of both Ministry and Nine Inch Nails albums = 3.
lol.
Got to check out Skinny Puppy sometime.
You should, they're great. On the more abrasive side of industrial music though I warn you.
I've liked every industrial band I've checked out, so I don't think I shoud be worried :lol.
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YES THE SNOW GOOSE
I am so happy to see Camel's The Snow Goose on that list. While it's about as metal as a wooden spoon full of custard, it's an awesome album, and I think I can sort of see how it is important to metal, even if that importance is not necessrily the most expected. I'm not sure he means "first" genesis album, though. I think he may have forgotten FGTR exists, otherwise it's a very interesting list.
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YES THE SNOW GOOSE
I am so happy to see Camel's The Snow Goose on that list. While it's about as metal as a wooden spoon full of custard, it's an awesome album, and I think I can sort of see how it is important to metal, even if that importance is not necessrily the most expected. I'm not sure he means "first" genesis album, though. I think he may have forgotten FGTR exists, otherwise it's a very interesting list.
Ah, I'm just unsure whether or not its a real Genesis album or not.
For example I have Slipknot's self-titled down in my iTunes as '01 Slipknot' and Mate Feed Kill Repeat down as '00 Mate Feed Kill Repeat' because I don't think MFKR is their first album even if it came first, if you follow.
I don't know enough about that record to know if its Genesis real first album, or just a demo that lasted as long as an album.
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It was definitely a bona fide album, but it was on a different label (Decca as opposed to Charisma) and it was produced by (I forget the name, Jonathan something or other) as a pop album, rather than doing the whole prog thing. It was largely unknown to Genesis fans by the time of Nursery Cryme though.
And many argue that it wasn't very good (although I quite like it).
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It was definitely a bona fide album, but it was on a different label (Decca as opposed to Charisma) and it was produced by (I forget the name, Jonathan something or other) as a pop album, rather than doing the whole prog thing. It was largely unknown to Genesis fans by the time of Nursery Cryme though.
And many argue that it wasn't very good (although I quite like it).
Ah fair enough cool.
I thought it might've just been a demo jumped into an album as a cash in late in history.
Ooooh. So there's one more Gabriel era Genesis album? I must check that out.
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It's not too bad actually. Just not something that I'd listen to every week like Nurcery Cryme or Selling England or Trespass.
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Yar, if you don't expect it to be anything like their others, it's pretty good. In The Beginning and Where The Sour Turns To Sweet are pretty catchy songs which I almost wish they played later into their career sometimes.
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I understand but in regards to it's novelty regarding length and its metal nature, it should be here over dozens of these albums.
But Light of Day, Day of Darkness IS on this list..
It is?
Yes, it is.
oh
You're both right. I added it after your suggestion.
Heh?
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Amount of Marilyn Manson albums = 3.
Amount of both Ministry and Nine Inch Nails albums = 3.
lol.
Got to check out Skinny Puppy sometime.
Skinny Puppy are awesome and the pioneers of industrial, though they are of a radically different breed. Their albums are highly experimental and fragmented, but very rewarding if you press the play button with an open mind.
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I understand but in regards to it's novelty regarding length and its metal nature, it should be here over dozens of these albums.
But Light of Day, Day of Darkness IS on this list..
It is?
Yes, it is.
oh
You're both right. I added it after your suggestion.
Heh?
When you looked at the list for the first time, it wasn't there. Then when I read your comment, I added the album to the list.
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Are you the creator of the list?
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Are you the creator of the list?
Yeah. I found this forum through my blog's traffic analytics.