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General => Movies and TV => Topic started by: Scurvy!Dreams on May 01, 2009, 09:26:59 PM
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Warning: Spoilers for all Battlestar and Caprica episodes released. If you're just getting into the series, we'll be happy to answer your questions, but be careful what you read.
While we were gone...
Caprica was released. Who's seen that, and what did you think?
The season 4.5 DVD and the complete series DVD and Blu-Ray collections were announced. The 4.5 DVDs will include extended cuts of 3 episodes: A Disquiet Follows My Soul, Islanded in a Stream of Stars, and Daybreak. Looking forward to those, particularly the last two.
https://tvshowsondvd.com/news/Battlestar-Galactica-Press-Release/11751
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Best show in history.
Bought caprica, haven't seen it yet, but it doesn't actually look very good. I hope I'm wrong.
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Bear McCreary hopes to release a two CD season four soundtrack. One CD will be highlights of "He That Believeth in Me" to "Islanded in a Stream of Stars." Disc four will be just Daybreak. The music in Daybreak was such an astounding leap in terms of composition. I'm glad to see it get a whole CD's worth of time to shine.
Also, other people can bitch about the finale all they want. But I'm liking it more and more as time goes on. The character endings were pretty much exactly as they should have been.
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I'm just getting into the series based on it's popularity here.
I got the 2003 three hour miniseries and watched it, I like it but I'm not as super impressed as I thought I would be according to the fuzz I saw for BSG here, I will continue to watch the rest of the show when I get home from work in a couple weeks.
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This is a show I have to get before my exams finish, although I have a feeling i'm too overhyped for another tv series after watching firefly for the first time in years for it to be that enjoyable :-\
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I'm not a big fan of the miniseries either. It's good, but not up to par with the rest of the show. I'm glad I started with "33". Definitely soldier ahead.
I got Caprica on DVD, and I'm not entirely sure what to think. There's some interesting stuff, but I can't get excited about it as a whole. I'd definitely give the series a shot when it starts, assuming the world is expanded quite a bit.
SPOILER: It'll be interesting to see how they handle Cylon Zoe without being overly cheesy or melodramatic.
Bear McCreary hopes to release a two CD season four soundtrack. One CD will be highlights of "He That Believeth in Me" to "Islanded in a Stream of Stars." Disc four will be just Daybreak. The music in Daybreak was such an astounding leap in terms of composition. I'm glad to see it get a whole CD's worth of time to shine.
Not really into soundtracks by themselves, but I'll probably check this out. There were definitely some highlights this season: The Hub explosion, the song at the end of Revelations, and the piano piece in Someone To Watch Over Me.
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I'm just getting into the series based on it's popularity here.
I got the 2003 three hour miniseries and watched it, I like it but I'm not as super impressed as I thought I would be according to the fuzz I saw for BSG here, I will continue to watch the rest of the show when I get home from work in a couple weeks.
I like the Miniseries, but 33 is better. The Miniseries did a lot of things right, but everyone involved with the show was still figuring it out. 33 is when they nailed how to make the show work.
This is a show I have to get before my exams finish, although I have a feeling i'm too overhyped for another tv series after watching firefly for the first time in years for it to be that enjoyable :-\
People might disagree with me, but BSG is simply a better show than Firefly. I like Firefly a lot too.
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SPOILERS
I made the mistake of reading Jacob's Daybreak recap. I like how he calls Baltar's big speech to Cavil stupid, utterly ignoring the fact that it's the defining moment his character has been developing for over four seasons.
Or this:
Cavil squints at him and says, completely out of character except for the nastiness and irony he brings to it, "You don't. You have to make a leap of faith."
I like how he doesn't possibly consider that Ron wrote the line knowing Stockwell would play it that way, because Dean Stockwell is one of the best actors on the show.
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I'm confused about the webisodes issue, are they a must-watch to follow the plot? if so in what order and between which seasons should I watch them?
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I can't wait to get my hands on the complete series in BR . . . exciting stuff.
I'm also looking forward to the CD. Bear McCreary is a great up-and-coming composer and I hope he gets his big break (in movies anyway). Bear's actually doing some work for a game called Dark Void. Aside from the samples sounding great, he has some great ideas for it too.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWUz7077hxo
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I'm confused about the webisodes issue, are they a must-watch to follow the plot? if so in what order and between which seasons should I watch them?
The Resistance should be watched after "Lay Down Your Burdens Part II." Not essential to the plot, but adds texture to it.
The Face of the Enemy is a MUST after the episode "Revelations." Otherwise, the episodes afterwards won't make sense.
Don't watch either of the Webisodes early, or you'll be massively spoiled on the plot.
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Thanks dude
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I've avoided reading through this thread because I'm currently only at Episode 4 of Season 4 and I don't want to spoil anything. But holy crap it's going INSANE so far this season!
Season 3 was one of the best things I've ever watched though, and this show generally is incredibly addictive. I'll check back in this thread once I've seen the rest of it :P
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I've avoided reading through this thread because I'm currently only at Episode 4 of Season 4 and I don't want to spoil anything. But holy crap it's going INSANE so far this season!
Season 3 was one of the best things I've ever watched though, and this show generally is incredibly addictive. I'll check back in this thread once I've seen the rest of it :P
First half of season 4 is a bit weird but it pulls itself together at the end.
Second half of season 4 is mostly brilliant. You can feel the intensity of the writing and acting as the show pushes toward its conclusion.
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The pilot for Ron Moore and Michael Taylor's Virtuality is airing this Friday on Fox. I'm really curious to see this and it's getting pretty good reviews so far. Too bad it wasn't picked up for more episodes.
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Been wanting to grab Caprica on dvd, but it is so expensive.
Just out of curiousity how many of us watched the BSG miniseries premiere on SciFi way back when? I remember being excited about that and thrilled at how well it turned out. Oddly enough I don't think I watched any other episodes on tv as they premiered as I didn't have a tv for the rest of the show's run.
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Been wanting to grab Caprica on dvd, but it is so expensive.
Just out of curiousity how many of us watched the BSG miniseries premiere on SciFi way back when? I remember being excited about that and thrilled at how well it turned out. Oddly enough I don't think I watched any other episodes on tv as they premiered as I didn't have a tv for the rest of the show's run.
I didn't watch it when it first came on, but I remember being super stoked after I watched it the first time. I can still remember bugging my dad about how the show didn't have lasers.
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Wait, they don't have lasers!!!
:dangerwillrobinson:
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Hopefully in Caprica they invent lasers. ...And then dis-invent them?
yorost, I'd wait until they show Caprica on TV. Not worth the price right now, but definitely shows promise.
I watched "33" a couple of days after it first aired in the US because some random blog gave it a really good review. Absolutely loved it, but for some reason I'll never understand, I couldn't get past the first 10 minutes of "Water" even after a couple of tries. Anyway, a couple of years later I kept hearing all the rave reviews and tried again, starting with the miniseries this time. Went through everything to that date in under 2 weeks (in the middle of a semester) and the first episode I caught live was "Taking a Break From All Your Worries."
That was actually a bad time to get caught up, because that and the next few episodes are the infamous season 3 fillers. I got to experience the Starbuck/Maelstrom thing in real time though, so that was fun. The episode itself and getting to see the initial reactions to the end of Crossroads Part 2 online was also really memorable.
So to answer your question, no, I didn't see the Miniseries when it first aired.
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Season Three was... weird.
I think the genocide plot was just too radical an idea. Or maybe it wasn't well executed. On one hand, it completely makes sense to wipe out your enemy. On the other, what's the point of living. Maybe if they had given the debate any time to play out and mean anything it would have worked better. I still find it weird that Lee not only supported it but was on the execution team. What I did like was how Adama played it at every step, it feels like exactly what his character would have done.
There's something unsatisfying about Eye of Jupiter/Rapture. The Lee/Kara/Anders/Dualla subplot was too overplayed. The end of EOJ is one of the most frustrating things ever. ADAMA'S ABOUT TO NUKE EVERYTHING and we keep going back to relationship drama on the ground. I just don't get it. Plus, we know they're going to get off the ground, but what's the cost? Lots of shit changed on New Caprica before they escaped. We knew they would, but the journey there was intense.
Taking a Break From All Your Worries needed the Lee/Kara/Anders/Dualla plot cut out. The Baltar stuff is really interesting, that's what I care about.
Oddly, Unfinished Business is one of my favorite episodes. It looked like something exciting was going to happen with the Lee/Kara/Anders/Dualla plot. And then it didn't.
The Woman King... Ugh...
I actually like A Day in the Life.
I can't diss Dirty Hands, it's earnest and well-written, but it's impossible to watch it as a story because the statement is so strong. Adama does prove his ability to capture the imagination though by appearing in only one meaningful scene and making it the biggest of the episode. The idea of drafting people to work the Tyllium ship was actually interesting, they should have followed up on that.
It finally kicks into gear again on Maelstrom, which is a strange but good episode.
The trial of Baltar was pretty well done. Lee finally gets some stuff to do, and his Aesop speech at the end was surprisingly well written and acted.
The Cylons thing was a big gamble but it ended up paying off, because it catapulted Saul MF Tigh to even greater heights as a character.
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Been wanting to grab Caprica on dvd, but it is so expensive.
Just out of curiousity how many of us watched the BSG miniseries premiere on SciFi way back when? I remember being excited about that and thrilled at how well it turned out. Oddly enough I don't think I watched any other episodes on tv as they premiered as I didn't have a tv for the rest of the show's run.
Kevin Smith came to Orlando for a Q&A some years ago and people were asking him what movies he was really digging and whatnot. After slamming Superman Returns for 10 minutes, the topic moved to TV shows and he couldn't stop praising Battlestar Galactica. At this point, they were a few episodes into the third season.
I had dismissed BSG because I lumped it in with all the other Sci-Fi shows that looked incredibly stupid. So there was a time when movies weren't cutting it for me, I worked at Blockbuster, so I brought home the mini-series. As you can imagine, I was floored.
I proceeded to purchase the first two seasons, waited eagerly to purchase the third, and watched season 4 when it aired. Now I eagerly await the complete series on BR so I can never leave my house.
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NECROTHREAAADDDD
Watching the miniseries right now, I have about 50 minutes left. This. Is. Awesome.
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I just finished watching the entire series again.
SPOILERS
The finale is the worst 2 hours of TV I've ever seen. Absolutely dreadful.
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The finale is the worst 2 hours of TV I've ever seen. Absolutely dreadful.
I don't know how you can possibly think this.
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The finale is the worst 2 hours of TV I've ever seen. Absolutely dreadful.
I don't know how you can possibly think this.
Well, I don't watch much TV, so there wasn't a ton of stuff opposing it. But I'll give you a couple reasons.
SPOILERS
1. Deux Ex Machina, the God of poor story writers: "How can we wrap up all these loose ends?" "I know, let's just have God do it!" "Yeah, that makes sense!" "God creates another Earth! The other one was a fake! How cool is that?" "God creates another race of humans for us to breed into! Freaking awesome!" "And how sweet would it be if we make like three characters angels from God. That way we don't need to adequately explain the rationale or physically how each one did stuff! Because they're angels, so we don't need to have their stories make any coherent sense whatsoever!"
2. Irresponsible proselytizing: "You know what would be cool, and totally responsible? If we just have this super-advanced race give up all their technology!" "Of course, because that means we can merge them into current humanity's story-line! Sweet!" "Because, really, all technology is super evil, right? I mean, living past 20 sucks. Literacy, medicine, science: sucks, sucks, sucks. Poetry, music, even television? Sucks, sucks, (and by the standards of this show) definitely sucks." "Yeah, and then we'll have this cool ending where all the characters run obliviously into certain death by starvation, as Helo and Sharon prepare to hunt animals that they have no idea how to, and Baltar prepares to farm when no crops have even been domesticated yet." "How do you think they'll survive the next ice age that's about to hit?" "They won't!"
3. Over-simplification of one of sci-fi's greatest shows: "So, we're going to do this coda 150,000 years later, where we reveal that head-six and head-Baltar are just super-cool angels from God! We're going to hit all the big points of this series; consumerism is bad, capitalism is bad, materialism is bad. But most of all, we're going to hammer in the biggest moral: Don't build robots! I mean, isn't that what this series has been all about since the beginning? Don't build robots! There were never any much more deeper or complex themes that we can dump all over, because let's face it, sci-fi can never be intelligent, or non-clichéd."
Those were my three main points, but I could've put literally anything from this episode. It reeked of throwing story lines together at the last second, because endings to the arcs had never be conceived. The opera house story line, which had been in the plot since the end of season frakking one, turned out to be: nothing. Absolutely nothing. This big plot point which had been built up and had been devoted many hours of screen time and my patience turned out to be Hera just running down a hallway. Lame.
Cavil committing suicide. Made no sense. He was a great villain, and they just threw him away.
The final five Cylons didn't affect anything because Tyrol kills Tory. I'll give them that, because I hated Tory.
Hera, who was built up way too much, doesn't affect anything. Not at all. I would've been happy if they'd just secured a peace with the Cylons by giving her away. Something, at least. And seriously, how many goddamn times was she kidnapped? They need a fucking amber alert system in the BSG universe.
END SPOILERS
Anyway, I was just so sad at what BSG became in it's fourth season. A poorly written, horribly clichéd, stock sci-fi show, when it was before so much more. R.I.P. Season 1-3.
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I hate quoting every point and rebutting it, so I'll just say you're wrong. The finale was great, as was the rest of season 4.
SPOILERS
SPOILERS
Oh what the hell:
1. Oversimplifying things. The angels helped guide them, but God didn't do EVERYTHING. From this and your other complaints it seems like you hate any of the mythological elements of the show, and wanted more straight-forward sci-fi. But those elements have always been there, so it's a fault of your expectations, not that the show suddenly changed into something else.
2. This one is hard to buy, but I think their reasoning makes sense. After being trapped inside a metal tube for 4 years, being hunted by their own technological folly, I totally get that they'd be willing to give up technology. Plus, we don't know what they actually gave up, beyond the ships.
3. It's only oversimplified because you're pissed off and want to see it that way. The message of the coda isn't "all this stuff is definitely evil", it's "be fucking careful!"
Cavil suicide: Makes perfect sense for the character. Plus his arc is done, what else are they supposed to do with him?
Final Five didn't do too much in the finale. Except, you know, stop the colony from completely annihilating them, and setting off the chain of events that brings them to Earth. But their back story is essentially that they affected fucking everything!
Everyone on Earth is descended from Hera. That's not affecting anything?
END SPOILERS
END SPOILERS
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SPOILERS
1. Well, yes I do hate the mythological elements of the show. I always thought of BSG as drama in a sci-fi setting; I didn't want straight-forward sci-fi. And the mythological elements weren't always there; sure people were religious, and that's fine. But having God intervene directly in the plot of the series is seriously weak. Imagine if that happened in The West Wing. Shit would go down. And God did do a fair amount; it's implied that it brought Kara back, helped them find the fake Earth, helped them realize the importance of the song/Hera, created a new Earth with a biologically identical human species. That's a lot of intervention.
2. We know (seeing as how it's implied that they were our direct ancestors 150,000 years ago) that they gave up everything, because otherwise we'd have archaeological evidence otherwise. And I don't think their reasoning is solid anyways: Lee just decides "a clean slate" is good and erases thousands of years of technological progress. I don't care how much one might grow to hate technology in the four years you've been chased by robots, but it wouldn't make you want to condemn your generation and all generations past it to starvation, extremely low lifespans, etc.
3. I simplified it a bit, but that's the message. Ending it with a 3 minute montage of various "sentient" robots is fairly obvious. Boiling down all the themes of BSG into "be careful with robots" is a smack in the face to the complexities and greatness of the show.
Cavil's suicide did not make sense. Throughout his entire character, he was shown to be above all else, cunning, resourceful, and dedicated. I'm not saying he shouldn't have died, but him just killing himself once Resurrection is gone was a complete anti-climax and entirely opposite to his character. I'm sure he would've wanted to go down taking as many of the humans and Cylons he hates with him.
My anger with the final five is greater than just the final episode. First of all, the chances of the five all surviving in one group of 50,000 out of 20 billion is astronomical. I think only Sam should've been a final fiver; all the others would've died on the Colonies. Besides, I hated that my main man Saul Tigh became a Cylon. Also Tyrol.
I think the problem with the final season was how poorly planned the story arcs were. Ronald D. Moore stated a number of times in interviews that he purposely (throughout the series) never planned to far ahead; and frankly, oftentimes it works. I think one of the reasons that the aftermaths of the 1st and 2nd season finales were great was that the reactions were panicked and instinctual, with the style of writing something unplanned and sudden mirroring the actions of the characters. However, that works when it's real-life events like that. But when you start invoking God and supernatural things to tie-up loose plot points it gets weak pretty fast. Case in point: Tyrol as a final fiver. I don't honestly think that the writing team thought too hard about that one, considering it took them until the 11th episode of the fourth season to realize that that would mean his kid was half-Cylon, and all this stuff about Hera being unique was BS. So they applied a quick patch to the story that didn't make much sense. Also, they never really harmonized Tigh fighting in the first Cylon War but him arriving as the war ended.
Ok, now I'll give you my version of how the story should've gone. Going back to the end of season 3, Kara never "dies." None of the final five are revealed in the series finale. In the season 4 opener, Sam is revealed to be one of the five (when the Raider "scans" him), simultaneously saving the fleet as the Cylons refuse to fire because they know at least one of the final five are in the fleet. Cylon civil-war happens. Same thing with the Dimitrius happens, except instead of following "visions" Kara and co. are searching for a rebel basestar broadcasting signals for help. They bring it back to the fleet, crap goes down. Eventually, they find a spot that aligns with the star patterns way back in E207. They find Earth, but it's all blown up. Sam starts to realize he might be a final fiver. Coup happens; (though I'd have approached Zarek and Gaeta a different way. I thought Zarek was demonized too much; I thought he and Gaeta had many valid points about Adama reconciling with the Cylons and using their technology). Adama defeats the coup, barely, executes Zarek and Gaeta. Sam is shot, realizes he's a Cylon. Learns basically what happened to the final five (more or less the same history, except the other four die in the Colonies). Fleet starts to fall apart. Rebel cylons propose basically a suicide run against the most important Cylon targets: the Resurrection Hub and the Colony. They destroy the Resurrection Hub. Battlestar starts to fall apart. They prepare to take it on its "final mission": attacking the Colony. They start to succeed; they kill Cavil. (btw, and some point it would be explored that the Cylon religion was invented by Cavil to prevent the Cylons from empathizing with humanity, and to keep a sense of superiority and divine purpose about them) Religious remnants accept a peace with the humans if they give them Hera, and Sam gives them back Resurrection. They make the deal; humanity jumps back to the one planet they know they can go to, Kobol. They resettle Kobol, and to prevent the cycle of violence from happening again, they leave the broken Battlestar in orbit. As a museum. :metal
EDIT: Also, my finale would've been Tigh, Lampkin, and Doc Cottle (three best characters) stealing a spaceship, getting drunk, and having an interstellar adventure. Would've been awesome.
END SPOILERS
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I completely agree with Scurvy, and I have to say the end of BSG was by far my favourite ending to a TV show ever. Left me completely satisfied and amazed at how everything tied up along the same themes they had been using all along.
As Scurv said, you must hate the mythological stuff, in which case I'm surprised you ever enjoyed the show all that much, because it was extremely prevalent right from the first series.
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I completely agree with Scurvy, and I have to say the end of BSG was by far my favourite ending to a TV show ever. Left me completely satisfied and amazed at how everything tied up along the same themes they had been using all along.
As Scurv said, you must hate the mythological stuff, in which case I'm surprised you ever enjoyed the show all that much, because it was extremely prevalent right from the first series.
Oh c'mon, you can't see the difference between people being religious (which would've been strange had they omitted it, because that's opposite to reality) and God directly intervening in the plot? To say there were mythological elements even remotely approaching what happened in the 4th season from the start is just false.
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Anywho. Anyone else seen The Plan? What a waste of 2 hours or whatever. It's basically a bunch of scenes from the show mixed in with other scenes shot for the movie. It's good if you want to see more Cavil and really good if you want to see more Simon (black cylon). But beyond that, serves NO purpose at all.
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I completely agree with Scurvy, and I have to say the end of BSG was by far my favourite ending to a TV show ever. Left me completely satisfied and amazed at how everything tied up along the same themes they had been using all along.
As Scurv said, you must hate the mythological stuff, in which case I'm surprised you ever enjoyed the show all that much, because it was extremely prevalent right from the first series.
Oh c'mon, you can't see the difference between people being religious (which would've been strange had they omitted it, because that's opposite to reality) and God directly intervening in the plot? To say there were mythological elements even remotely approaching what happened in the 4th season from the start is just false.
Yes, it was milder at the very start, but that side of the show increased throughout the four series. If it hadn't been there, it would have just been a decent drama in a sci-fi setting. The side of the show that deals with philosophy and religion is what makes it stand out so much, and that was present throughout.
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Anywho. Anyone else seen The Plan? What a waste of 2 hours or whatever. It's basically a bunch of scenes from the show mixed in with other scenes shot for the movie. It's good if you want to see more Cavil and really good if you want to see more Simon (black cylon). But beyond that, serves NO purpose at all.
I haven't seen it, but that's somewhat disappointing. I mean, Razor kind of had that same irrelevance but it was still a nice addition to the series I thought, even though it served no real purpose. Could that still be said about The Plan?
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THAR BE SPOILERS HERE
Anywho. Anyone else seen The Plan? What a waste of 2 hours or whatever. It's basically a bunch of scenes from the show mixed in with other scenes shot for the movie. It's good if you want to see more Cavil and really good if you want to see more Simon (black cylon). But beyond that, serves NO purpose at all.
Eh, uh, what? It basically explains why the Cylon genocide of humanity happened, and why Cavil is not only evil, but bitter.
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I haven't seen The Plan, but I hope to. Hearing it was a bunch of clips mixed in with new footage is nothing new, though. It was just supposed to provide a connection of the entire series and what was actually going on with the Cylons. I'm disappointed to hear it isn't that good, but I guess I'm not that surprised, either, as it is probably just meant to be fan service.
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THAR BE SPOILERS HERE
Anywho. Anyone else seen The Plan? What a waste of 2 hours or whatever. It's basically a bunch of scenes from the show mixed in with other scenes shot for the movie. It's good if you want to see more Cavil and really good if you want to see more Simon (black cylon). But beyond that, serves NO purpose at all.
Eh, uh, what? It basically explains why the Cylon genocide of humanity happened, and why Cavil is not only evil, but bitter.
I should clarify, what I meant was that it served no purpose as a movie. Everything about cavil could have been done in a 30 minute thingy. It spent so much time screwing up the whole "sleeper agent boomer" story and mixing in old clips that it seemed like mostly filler. Yes, the cavil thing was good, but it didn't show us anything new. We knew already why he did what he did, the only thing it showed more so was the meeting between the two cavils and such. But I really liked what they did with the Simon character.
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I can't say that I'm a big fan of Razor or The Plan, but at least they were made to give fans a little glimpse into different aspects of the show. And I certainly wont turn down Bear McCreary.
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I definitely liked Razor, although I think it would have been so much better had they thought of it earlier and had the lead actress as part of the regular episodes. The series could have shrouded the events surrounding the plot line of Razor and her demise.
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I found Razor very inconsistent. Some scenes were just amazing (Adama and Lee end scene, a lot of the stuff with Cain and Shaw) others were average (attack on basestar and "detonator is fried" seemed a tad contrived) and other were hilariously cheesy (young Cain on Tauron, Shaw and the Hybrid). It seemed like different scenes had different authors, and the quality fluctuated as a result. But overall it was very good, and a great example of the complexity BSG could bring to sci-fi. I couldn't name another TV movie or show where the main "good" character could shoot a family, and then have a non-hysterical, reasoned look at it.
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Me and my girlfriend both fell asleep watching The Plan. So it must be pretty exciting.
Actually, I am still curious enough to pick it up again.
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(https://static.tvfanatic.com/images/gallery/rainn-wilson-as-dwight-schrute.jpg)
Biggest fan.
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Just finished the first season.
SPOILERS:
NOOOO EDWAAAAARDDDDDD DONT DIE I LOVE YOU
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Amazing finale.
I remember I lent season 1 to my friend, and he phoned me 10 minutes after finishing. He was like "Give. Now. Please."
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Yeah, I felt like it kinda teetered off near the middle, but the last 3 or 4 episodes were amazing, especially the last two. :hefdaddy
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Yeah, I felt like it kinda teetered off near the middle, but the last 3 or 4 episodes were amazing, especially the last two. :hefdaddy
The teaser in Kobol's Last Gleaming, part 1 is amazing. One of the best couple of minutes in the series.
The definite low point in Season 1 is "Litmus".
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Just finished the first season.
SPOILERS:
NOOOO EDWAAAAARDDDDDD DONT DIE I LOVE YOU
Have you seen the entire show before?
If not, GET ON WITH SEASON 2!
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Just finished the first season.
SPOILERS:
NOOOO EDWAAAAARDDDDDD DONT DIE I LOVE YOU
Have you seen the entire show before?
If not, GET ON WITH SEASON 2!
Just watched the first episode
THERE'S CYLONS ON THE SHIP WATCH OUT THEY'RE COMING
My roommate looks at me weird while I'm watching BG because I tend to randomly yell things like "DON'T TRUST HER SHE'S A ROBOT"
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:lol That's the best way to be.
Man I love the show. First time through was one of the greatest (and tensest) things ever. Though I have to say, watching through it a second time, even though I know what's coming it's still damn brilliant.
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Watching it through the second time was worse for me, because I know how it ends. The malaise of the finale creeps backwards in time.
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Watching it through the second time was great for me, because I know how it ends. The AWESOMENESS of the finale creeps backwards in time.
:biggrin:
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I'm half way through the second season and thought it's time to post how I like it so far to the people who recommended it in the first place heh
I re-watched the mini-series and went right to season 1, watched the whole thing in 3 days then started season 2 a couple nights ago.
I just watched ep 15 entitled Scar, worst episode since I started watching BSG but I'm not here to talk about that.
Judging by what I've seen so far BSG is sometimes brilliant and other times just entertaining and other times plain redundunt.
I'm sort of disappointed cause I thought bitch president was gonna die a couple eps ago and that wuss doctor saved her, I know he did it as a way to save Boomer but I was very excited about that shitty president character/actress leaving the show, I can frankly say I've never hated or been more annoyed by a character/actress as I have with that rusty bitch, I find every decision she's made so far incredibly stupid and plain pointlessly stubborn, she's such a pain in the ass of this show, the actress facial expressions and gestures boil my blood beyond possible, her grin, her frozen smile and the way she looks when she's listening to something she doesn't like, for some reason her very presence make me wanna fast forward.
I like Helo, Boomer, Starbuck and Apollo, my favorite's gotta be Helo.
Anything Admiral Adama says or does is usually the high point of the episode for me, great actor and really cool character, I also like Tigh and can't really understand why everybody else hates him, being an occasional drunk is not enough for all this hate.
The reason why the doctor and number Six are the poster characters for the show is beyond me, I never found their scenes remotely interesting, more of the same, always the same, I get it, he's a wuss but there's something about him and she's mysterious, boho.
I'll keep going, I like the plot even though I never liked anything that happens in space heh
Quick question: should I avoid this thread from now on for spoilers?
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Yeah you probably should :lol
Although I'm amazed that you don't like Roslyn, she's badass! And who doesn't like Tigh? Again he's awesome, especially in series 3!
And Baltar is kind of annoying at first but ends up being such a great character.
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who doesn't like Tigh? Again he's awesome, especially in series 3!
I'm still in season 2, I like him but most of the other character on the show don't, which I find unjustified.
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Ah right, I thought you meant fans of the show! :lol
Well yeah, I like him as a character but can totally see why he gets on everyone's nerves :P
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I don't understand how you could possibly not like Scar.
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Jumping back and forth in events timing always makes me very distracted and unfocused on the plot, beside I find that whatsername (the girl who eventually killed Scar) very annoying.
And another thing about BSG that's been very distracting for me is the frack thing, basiclly because it always makes me giggle at times I shouldn't be, motherfracker and frack you, etc heh
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You don't like Scar or Roslin, and you like Helo most of those characters you listed. What is this, opposite day?! :p
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I like Helo too.
Although I think the 2nd Sharon was one of my favs.
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Well, Helo is pretty cool so I don't disagree with that part.
In fact, I can't think of any characters off the top of my head that I particularly dislike. All of them have good points and bad points and are ultimately flawed, which is what makes them such great characters.
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I just watched one of the most -if not the most- epic episodes in the series so far imo, 2x18 Downloaded.
Plain awesome, the scenes of the downloading in the begining of the episode is just plain awesome, especially when they do the quick flash backs montage of the previous lives of the cylons before they got killed.
Somethings got a little clearer, so the number Six who's appearing to Baltar is in no way connected to the one who was with him when the Cylon attack on Caprica happened, she has no idea what's been happening ever since and now Baltar is appearing to her in the same way she does to him on Galactica, now this relationship is getting interesting to me for the first time.
Most important thing we get out of this is that the number six who appears to Baltar on Galactica does not in anyway work or communicate with the Cylons.
Now as usual everything rusty whore president said and done on this episode made me wanna puke til I lose weight, taking the baby away, my heart went out for Helo and Sharon. (btw the pig's new assistent who replaced Billy is just a remarkable asshole too!)
All Sharon and number 6 together were beautifully scripted, I like how their unity could bring and really looking forward to it.
The Christian Bale impersonator was cool in this episode, haven't seen him in a while, I like that he's seen that side of the Cylons, I'm assuming he's the "big boss" of the resistence.
And finally Lucy Lawless made me happy in the pants, she is so freakin hot, even hotter than she was in Zeina!! how's that even possible!
Keeping up, 2 eps left from season 2.
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Damn right, Downloaded is a great episode, especially seeing the vision of Baltar appearing to Caprica Six in the same way that the vision of her appears to him all the time!
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I've been listening to the 4th season soundtrack while I do my taxes. For those who don't have it (shame on you), it's split into two discs: The first disc is a "best of", featuring music that spans the entire season. The 2nd (and my preferred) disc contains the score for the final "episodes".
I've watched the series front to back twice and to be honest I can't wait to do it a third time. There's always someone out there who hasn't given the show the time of day, so it's just a matter of forcing them to watch it. The last episodes though . . . maybe they didn't nail everything, but they sure as hell go the tone right. Listening to the music now, I can't help but feel a little sad that this phenomenon has already passed. What a fantastic show.
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Halfway through the second season.
*SPOILERS*
The scene where Adama was about to engage the Pegasus Admiral because of Helo and the Chief's court marshall was fucking intense.
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I agree with Cain on that one.
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The soundtrack actually got me into BSG. I had listened to all the soundtracks before I watched a single episode. Now I'm 16 episodes into the third season.
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The soundtrack actually got me into BSG. I had listened to all the soundtracks before I watched a single episode. Now I'm 16 episodes into the third season.
Right on. How'd you first get around to listening to them?
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I've watched the series front to back twice and to be honest I can't wait to do it a third time. There's always someone out there who hasn't given the show the time of day, so it's just a matter of forcing them to watch it. The last episodes though . . . maybe they didn't nail everything, but they sure as hell go the tone right. Listening to the music now, I can't help but feel a little sad that this phenomenon has already passed. What a fantastic show.
I know what you mean about the end, but if I'm honest I felt completely satisfied. Not every detail was resolved, but the overall story was, and brilliantly as well. And I liked the fact that even though the story was resolved, it still left questions unanswered. Such an amazing show!
Saw the first two episodes (which I think is actually just the pilot) of Caprica when it was on TV this week, bit slower moving than the way BSG started, but it was pretty good and I think shows a lot of promise :tup
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The soundtrack actually got me into BSG. I had listened to all the soundtracks before I watched a single episode. Now I'm 16 episodes into the third season.
Right on. How'd you first get around to listening to them?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2rXtG3vfAlA
Oddly enough. Then it progressed from there!
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The soundtrack actually got me into BSG. I had listened to all the soundtracks before I watched a single episode. Now I'm 16 episodes into the third season.
Right on. How'd you first get around to listening to them?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2rXtG3vfAlA
Oddly enough. Then it progressed from there!
Awesome. Some things happen for a reason.
I've yet to check out Caprica, but the idea sounds pretty cool.
Also, for anyone who owns the complete series of BSG (on either DVD or Blu-ray), Universal is re-issuing the series in a few months in more convential packaging. There are no pictures up yet, but for those who already own it, it looks like they might be doing an exchange program where you can send your old box back and recieve the new packaging. That's great news to me, as the original packaging didn't hold discs well (and I ended up just putting them all in blank DVD cases). Bill Hunt (of thedigitalbits) is still trying to confirm this though, and get some pictures up.
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Hopefully they'll also include a booklet that list what episodes and special features are on what disks this time!
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Fact.... Bears eat beats....
Bears
Beats
Battlestar Galactica
(https://debitversuscredit.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/identity_theft_the_office_jim_dwight.jpg)
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(https://hijinksensue.com/comics/2009-11-25-luna-nueva.jpg)
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:lol
:heart
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Just started season 3, a lot of thoughts and thing to discuss here but I'd rather wait till I finish the whole series.
Damn though; it's like every female character on this show is designed to be as annoying as possible.
Oh and fat Apollo is just priceless :lol
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I'm just working my way through this as a way of entertaining myself after exams. The episode "downloaded" is probably one of the best bits of TV I've ever seen!
Very good show, incredible how it is so consistently good, with only a few of the episodes (Scar and Black Market spring to mind here) which don't seem to move the show on very much and consequently are a bit boring.
Superb though. Great plot, great writing and superb casting both for acting abilities and hotness!
(https://go.webassistant.com/wa/upload/users/u1001065/pages/0609-44778411189tMQk97WCn/dna2_bestanden/cylon_bg_six_red.jpg)
mmm now THAT is hot!!
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Just started season 3, a lot of thoughts and thing to discuss here but I'd rather wait till I finish the whole series.
Damn though; it's like every female character on this show is designed to be as annoying as possible.
Oh and fat Apollo is just priceless :lol
I'm sorry, all I read was "BSG is the greatest show ever". But then again, that's all I can ever read about this show, cause it's the truth.
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I've been very interested in seeing this show, so I'm getting the miniseries that preceded they did in 03, in a not so legal way, and see what's up with the show.
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I've been very interested in seeing this show, so I'm getting the miniseries that preceded they did in 03, in a not so legal way, and see what's up with the show.
Bad idea. If you get it illegally, after watching it you might have nightmares of Edward James Olmos yelling at you about it. And you will cry.
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And when does a dream that has EJO becomes a nightmare? It's EJO!
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And when does a dream that has EJO becomes a nightmare? It's EJO!
I would be scared like a 6 year old girl in a rape room if EJO was yelling at me about anything.
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I would smile in amazement!
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Just started season 3, a lot of thoughts and thing to discuss here but I'd rather wait till I finish the whole series.
Damn though; it's like every female character on this show is designed to be as annoying as possible.
Oh and fat Apollo is just priceless :lol
I'm sorry, all I read was "BSG is the greatest show ever". But then again, that's all I can ever read about this show, cause it's the truth.
Amazing show of course, only sci-fi show involving anything space ships themed to attract me like this, surely love it.
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Oh and correction on myself; only the human female characters on this show are annoying as fuck, the cylon ones are all cool, not just sexy, cool!
(https://hollywoodhatesme.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/cylons1.jpg)
mmmmmmmmmmmm
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You saying that you don't like Starbuck? And I find Roslin kinda hot in a Milf-y way. Then there is whatsherface I had to look up that apparently isn't called "hot black girl from the command centre" (what I had been referring to her as) and is in fact called Anastasia Dualla, this one:
(https://cppalacios.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/anastasia-dualla.jpg)
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Callie anyone? She was cute as shaved cunt.
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*spoilers*
I liked Dualla until she dropped Billy so harshly, and he still got killed over her. She got what she deserved from Apollo.
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You saying that you don't like Starbuck? And I find Roslin kinda hot in a Milf-y way. Then there is whatsherface I had to look up that apparently isn't called "hot black girl from the command centre" (what I had been referring to her as) and is in fact called Anastasia Dualla, this one:
(https://cppalacios.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/anastasia-dualla.jpg)
Yeah see when a character is annoying I can't see the sexy in the actress, especially bitch-president, she did so much shitty things -up to season 3- that I can't even believe Adama still likes her or respects her, I think I've said it before but I have never been more irritated a character or an actress than this person, her every gesture and facial expression annoys me.
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You hated the president? I thought she was such an amazing character!
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Me too, I thought she was great in every way apart from her fanatical religious beliefs.
Pretty much the only female character I don't think is hot is (SPOILER ALERT) Ellen Tigh. She is just a bit skanky...
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They were all super tough and super pissed off, women too. Starbuck was the least likeable female character, the president was just awesome. Her and Adama made the best enemies and the best couple.
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I disagree, it's plain disgusting, but what do I know, I'm just up to season 3.
Boomer & Helo are my favorite couple and in close second comes Butler and Number 6 with their complicated relationship & not-so-clear connection.
btw now 3 episodes into season 3 and loving it.
P.S: Fat Apollo is not getting less hilarious hehe
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I hate Helo so goddamn much. And Roslin is really the only well-written female character.
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Helo?! wow, we're so opposite dude :lol
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I hate Helo so goddamn much. And Roslin is really the only well-written female character.
No. Helo is awesome. In fact, Helo was (kind of) the entire reason the show went where it did.
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I hate Helo so goddamn much. And Roslin is really the only well-written female character.
No. Helo is awesome. In fact, Helo was (kind of) the entire reason the show went where it did.
Smells like there's a spoiler there so I won't ask what you mean but I 100% agree with you on his awesomeness.
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I assume you're past the part where helo gets rescued from caprica, right?
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I hate Helo so goddamn much. And Roslin is really the only well-written female character.
No. Helo is awesome. In fact, Helo was (kind of) the entire reason the show went where it did.
That doesn't matter. He was an awful character and I hated him. He was a whiny bitch who had no character flaws and always did "the right thing" and didn't have a goddamn personality. And he's at the center of easily the worst non-season 4 episode of the series.
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Yeah, for me he's currently working in the control room with Admiral Adama planning the rescue of the humans on New Caprica.
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Yeah, for me he's currently working in the control room with Admiral Adama planning the rescue of the humans on New Caprica.
Oh ok, well the only reason they went back to get him was because the fans liked him so much. And if they didn't go back and get helo they wouldn't have had what is arguably the most important character on the show which shaped entire direction it took.
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I see, didn't know that, cool :)
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Yeah, for me he's currently working in the control room with Admiral Adama planning the rescue of the humans on New Caprica.
Oh ok, well the only reason they went back to get him was because the fans liked him so much. And if they didn't go back and get helo they wouldn't have had what is arguably the most important character on the show which shaped entire direction it took.
Not really. As much as the producers tried to retcon the plot in the 4th season, at no point did Helo ever drive a significant portion of the story.
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His existence did. Sure he didn't do much more with it, but who knows if they would have done the same thing without him? Going back for helo changed the path BSG took.
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His existence did. Sure he didn't do much more with it, but who knows if they would have done the same thing without him? Going back for helo changed the path BSG took.
Yeah, it did change things. That doesn't make him the most important character.
Or a good one. God, I hate him.
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His existence did. Sure he didn't do much more with it, but who knows if they would have done the same thing without him? Going back for helo changed the path BSG took.
Yeah, it did change things. That doesn't make him the most important character.
Or a good one. God, I hate him.
I didn't say he was the most important character. But I liked him. He was awesome.
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I don't get what there is not to like about Helo.
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There isn't a character in the show I don't like, actually. They're all interesting in one way or another.
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I didn't like that one guy
what was his name
adama?
...
...
...
...
:neverusethis:
No, really, noone sticks out in my head as being someone I disliked. Some people were...less cool, but I didn't DISLIKE anyone.
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Characters I don't like:
Lee
Kara
Chief (post-season 2)
Tigh (post-season 3)
Roslin (post-season 3)
Tory
Characters I loathe:
Sharon/#8s
Cally
Helo
Best characters:
Gaeta
Adama
Roslin (Seasons 1-3)
Dualla
Zarek (Seasons 1-3)
Baltar (Seasons 1-3)
Tigh (Season 1-3)
Cain
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Ugh, now I realize, I HATED Zarek and Gaeta. Those guys were fucking shitheads. "Wah wah we have to work to stay alive we shouldn't have to work" "Well, if you don't work, every fucking human being alive will die" "Wah who cares lets have a rebellion"
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Gaeta was an amazing character, you weren't supposed to root for him near the end there. Same with Zarek, he served his purpose and was pure evil.
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I'm not saying they were poorly written or bad characters, I'm just saying I disliked them as people.
Edit: Although, their motivations for the little rebellion at the end were pretty lame. People aren't getting paid? Who gives a shit? Your civilization has been destroyed! There's nothing to buy! Your money has no value!
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All this makes sense to me, except GuineaPig's posts which seems to be about a different show, perhaps Mad About You heh
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I'm not saying they were poorly written or bad characters, I'm just saying I disliked them as people.
Edit: Although, their motivations for the little rebellion at the end were pretty lame. People aren't getting paid? Who gives a shit? Your civilization has been destroyed! There's nothing to buy! Your money has no value!
It wasn't so much about wages if I recall correctly. It was basically groups of people being forced into constant hard labor with no benefits while others do much less and enjoy nicer lives.
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But if I recall correctly, they were the only people who were trained to do it. Obviously, they could have trained more people, but it certainly wasn't grounds for a military coup.
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But if I recall correctly, they were the only people who were trained to do it. Obviously, they could have trained more people, but it certainly wasn't grounds for a military coup.
They were lead to it by an ego maniac who just wanted power. They were angry and desperate and supported someone who seemed to want to want to fight for them.
Seriously, when Zarek....took care....of the committy or whatever they were, I was just left jaw dropped.
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The reason I specified Zarek as a good character from seasons 1-3 was that he was immediately reverted back into a cartoonish villain after an effective character arc that established him as a complex and multifaceted person.
And I somewhat rooted for Gaeta near the end. I think his grounds for launching a coup against Adama were for the most part well founded.
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When was Zarek ever multi-faceted? Right from the beginning, Zarek was pretty much opposed to the government BECAUSE they were the government. He's like an american :neverusethis:
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Exactly, the only "depth" Ron Paul, I mean Zarek ever got was when he pretended to be a good person in order to get power. As soon as he got what he wanted he went insane. He was never not insane, he was just smart.
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Callie anyone? She was cute as shaved cunt.
As posted in the sci-fi series thread:
the girl who plays Cally is really cute.
:hefdaddy :hefdaddy :hefdaddy
(https://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r243/ariich/random/NickiClyne.jpg) (https://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r243/ariich/random/nicki.jpg)
:heart
Also, Helo is awesome. In fact, there are simply no bad characters in this show. It seems to me that anyone disliking any character is kinda missing the point, although I only realised that once I finished watching the whole thing.
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Ariich, I'm liking you more each day.
I can't find a single weak character on the show. In fact, I can barely think of any weak moments, although one pops in my head. The last episode, the whole thing with boomer "owing one" to Adama. Just seemed random and forced.
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:tup
Yeah, there is the occasional weaker moment, but no show will ever be perfect. Every now and then there's a slightly cheesy moment, or a very minor inconsistency, but frankly these are so small and far between that they're entirely insignificant.
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The only bad thing about BSG I can think of is that anytime I watch a show that's dramatic, I think to myself "this will never be as good as battlestar, damn you guys for raising the bar so damn high". Though I gotta give props to SGU for really trying to reach that level, failing but coming close enough to be respected.
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I haven't really respected Stargate since the eighth season of SG-1.
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Wow, I am shocked at the level of fanboyism for Battlestar. I love the show, it's in my top 5, and is satisfying to watch in a way that is unlike any other TV show I know, but Jesus Christ. There are no bad characters? It's the perfect drama? C'mon.
A lot of the characters in my mind are very poorly written simply because it seems the producers thought that good characters = no character flaws, and that bad characters = people who are mean for no reason. That's why characters like Helo, Lee, Sharon, 4th season Zarek, etc. bore me to tears; they're completely unrealistic, and as lifeless and thin as the paper their characters were created on. Hell, even the "character flaws" that inhibit some of the major characters like alcoholism (Kara and Tigh) are treated as lovable quirks rather than destructive defects, and Adama's main character flaw is literally that he is too nice.
The best characters and best episodes were, imo, a result of the best writers on the show, like Anne Cofell Saunders. When it was down to people like Mark Verheiden or *shudders* Michael Angeli (who I hold responsible for much of the utter shit that season 4 is), things came across as tepid and dull. I'm unsure of how much I want to credit to Ronald D. Moore, because although he created the concept and the re-envisioning of much of the characters, I felt he was also responsible for the lack of a clear direction (oh my god season 4) and the overall poor character design, whereas the better writers were responsible for the best parts of the show.
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Just started trying go get into it, and currently watching the miniseries.
God, this is boring. I need as much encouragement as possible to get through the miniseries. I've begun watching it in like... 20 minute increments... because I'm utterly bored by what I'm watching and have to turn it off.
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Just started trying go get into it, and currently watching the miniseries.
God, this is boring. I need as much encouragement as possible to get through the miniseries. I've begun watching it in like... 20 minute increments... because I'm utterly bored by what I'm watching and have to turn it off.
Dude, I could've made that very post earlier in this thread cause that's exactly how I felt but I didn't wanna annoy the hardcore fans here, but dude that's exactly -word for word- how I felt when I started out, I even did the 20 minute increments thing, it's uncanny how your post applies to me when I started out.
I know the miniseries are long and it moves incredibly slow, but once that's over and you get into the seasons it will be so different, I promise you it will be fun, don't miss out on this cause this is as not-nerdy as a sci-fi show involving space battles can ever get.
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GuineaPig: are you talking about the same show? Every single character has tons of flaws, and none are truly evil. To me that's one the most important underlying themes and part of what makes the show so great.
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Also "lack of clear direction"?! Wtf were you on when you were watching it? :lol
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Just dropping by to say BSG is probably the best TV show I've watched.
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GuineaPig: are you talking about the same show? Every single character has tons of flaws, and none are truly evil. To me that's one the most important underlying themes and part of what makes the show so great.
What? Name a character flaw for Helo or Sharon. They always do the "right" thing and it drives me nuts. The characters are not multi-faceted by any stretch of the imagination. And I don't think character flaws are an important theme in the show at all. Flaws as a species Moore is quick to point out, but those never seem to be reflected in the "good" characters.
Also "lack of clear direction"?! Wtf were you on when you were watching it? :lol
Jesus Christ. How can you be blind to this? So much of the show was retconned, and so much stuff was introduced with no clear aim. Moore frequently discussed in commentaries purposely setting up things that he had not thought of an ending for and going from there. Particularly in regards to Adama being shot, the occupation of New Caprica, Starbuck's death (pretty much every season finale), Hera, the Opera House, etc. And the problem when you set up a mythological plot line that you don't have an idea of how to close, it ends up being retarded in the end. C'mon, how did you not think when watching the finale "They just pulled it out of their ass!" The Opera House vision was to direct Hera down a hallway. BIG FUCKING deal. The first Earth they found was a fake Earth, and don't worry, there's a real one over here! They don't find Earth either, they just convert a song into space-time coordinates somehow and it takes them there! Kara wasn't alive or a Cylon, she was just an ANGEL! And so was Baltar's head 6! Because how can we retcon all the stuff we've already established? And the real reason Hera's so important? Because she's a massive whore and fucks the entire human population! And all this is really a metaphor about how machines are bad and stuff, and science too. Because civilization sucks. That sort of approach (throwing things up in the air, coming up with the fallout later) works well with realistic events (re: Season 1 finale) where it might even help to evoke the feeling of a panicked and rushed response to a crisis. But when it's a mythological element that you've beaten into the audience's head for half the goddamn series, you have to plan how to end it or else it's gonna come off real lame. Which they did, and is why the finale sucked so much.
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You people are nuts, Tigh and Baltar were the best characters throughout the series! Billy was a favourite side character of mine in the early going, too.
Someone mentioned Helo had no flaws, which I really disagree with. He was too rigid in his thinking of right and wrong. That's a terrible flaw as he's going to cause far too many largely undecidable inner conflicts with himself, leading to arbitrary decisions that he doesn't seem to understand where he is wrong. I can't remember exactly, but I always had the impression his character was in this type of jam regularly, ie not knowing what is right, but then fully, and essentially blindly, committing to what he decided was right.
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What? Name a character flaw for Helo or Sharon. They always do the "right" thing and it drives me nuts.
Seriously? Helo, while always having good intentions, is incredibly stubborn and very short-sighted. And Sharon is often extremely selfish, disregarding what other people think (even Helo) and pursuing her own agenda.
The characters are not multi-faceted by any stretch of the imagination. And I don't think character flaws are an important theme in the show at all. Flaws as a species Moore is quick to point out, but those never seem to be reflected in the "good" characters.
I couldn't disagree more, name any character in the show and I could pick out a couple of obvious flaws in their personality. The range and variation of these flaws has always to me made the show very believable in terms of the characters.
Regarding your other paragraph, there is a lot to respond to, but I'd like to make an overall point: the underlying theme of your resentment towards the end of the show seems to stem from the fact that not every single thing was explained. And for some reason, you seem to think that means that nothing was thought through, but I am completely unable to follow the logic here and can only assume you are used to straightforward shows where everything has a sensible explanation at the end. Plus, if every detail had been explained in full it would have made for an incredibly dull finale. I absolutely love the fact that, while all the characters' stories are resolved, it leaves a lot of questions unanswered and gives the viewer a chance to use their imagination.
Now to respond to some individual points. THOSE WHO WANT TO AVOID SPOILERS, STOP READING NOW:
And the problem when you set up a mythological plot line that you don't have an idea of how to close, it ends up being retarded in the end.
First of all, you are basing this on the assumption that Moore was making it up as he went along, which is a pretty huge assumption and one I entirely disagree with. Of course there will have been big specifics he won't have known from the beginning (as is the case with literally all TV shows, because you don't know how many series will be commissioned, whether you can get all the actors back, etc), but the overall direction is completely consistent throughout the four series.
Second of all, what do you even mean by "close"? As I've said, all the plot lines were resolved, but it left questions unanswered, which is infinitely more interesting than "it turns out there are gods" or "no gods I'm afraid, here's a perfectly sensible scientific explanation".
C'mon, how did you not think when watching the finale "They just pulled it out of their ass!"
Not even slightly.
The Opera House vision was to direct Hera down a hallway. BIG FUCKING deal.
What a randomly bizarre thing to get worked up about.
The first Earth they found was a fake Earth, and don't worry, there's a real one over here!
Um, no the first one they found was their real Earth and 13th colony. But it was destroyed and uninhabitable.
They don't find Earth either, they just convert a song into space-time coordinates somehow and it takes them there!
Again, I don't see why this is a flaw, I thought it was a pretty nifty idea.
Kara wasn't alive or a Cylon, she was just an ANGEL! And so was Baltar's head 6!
That is the implication yes, but the details are left very open. The visions of Baltar and 6 in the other one's head are one thing, but Kara was a physical reality. Clearly you wanted some logical scientific explanation, but as I've said, that would have ultimately been incredibly dull and anti-climactic.
Because how can we retcon all the stuff we've already established? And the real reason Hera's so important? Because she's a massive whore and fucks the entire human population!
:lol Wut? Now you're just making things up.
And all this is really a metaphor about how machines are bad and stuff, and science too. Because civilization sucks.[/size]
How do you figure that? That's literally the opposite to my understanding of it.
But when it's a mythological element that you've beaten into the audience's head for half the goddamn series, you have to plan how to end it or else it's gonna come off real lame. Which they did, and is why the finale sucked so much.
Again, you're making huge accusations that I entirely disagree with.
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I always wanted Zarek to turn good eventually. Oh well, they got what they deserved.
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Zarek had his turns at good, but that's just good as in being on the side the show cast its light from as the establishment in the show was not terribly righteous through and through. From his perspective, and that of others, he was a hero fighting for good. We mostly just shown the perspective that he was a terrorist, but from much of his colony's perspective he was a leader trying to fight off virtual enslavement by the other 11.
His methods you could argue as evil, but I think his character isn't necessarily just evil. That helps make him a great character, easy to loathe yet easy to sympathize with. Probably also the reason people commonly seem to hope he would become one of the 'good' crew.
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Zarek had his turns at good, but that's just good as in being on the side the show cast its light from as the establishment in the show was not terribly righteous through and through. From his perspective, and that of others, he was a hero fighting for good. We mostly just shown the perspective that he was a terrorist, but from much of his colony's perspective he was a leader trying to fight off virtual enslavement by the other 11.
His methods you could argue as evil, but I think his character isn't necessarily just evil. That helps make him a great character, easy to loathe yet easy to sympathize with. Probably also the reason people commonly seem to hope he would become one of the 'good' crew.
When he deals with the senate or whatever it's called, not too sure how else you argue with that.
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In the end of the series? I'm not talking about one event, most of his actions in the series weren't quite that blatant. That was his all or nothing stand after the character had long since been developed and well known by viewers.
Besides, I'm not saying the things he did weren't terrible, but that the things he did he believed were justifiable for the ends they could bring forth. His actions were often just cold calculations aimed at the end results he thought were best. He was portrayed as understanding that what he was doing was terrible.
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In the end of the series? I'm not talking about one event, most of his actions in the series weren't quite that blatant. That was his all or nothing stand after the character had long since been developed and well known by viewers.
Besides, I'm not saying the things he did weren't terrible, but that the things he did he believed were justifiable for the ends they could bring forth. His actions were often just cold calculations aimed at the end results he thought were best. He was portrayed as understanding that what he was doing was terrible.
Yes, however his end result was to get more power. Despite how much he tried to dress it up as being "for the people".
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I think it is a little up in the air if he simply wanted power in the end or just felt that if he didn't do it nobody would. If grasping power himself was the only way to achieve his goals at that point, which is arguably true, then it isn't necessarily motivated by lust for power. Prior to that he seemed more interested in having control over the power rather than simply being the power, which made his last stand seem a little bit more like desperate last attempt at restoring order instead of just a power grab.
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This is going to take a long time to address, but whatever. Massive quote pyramid ftw.
What? Name a character flaw for Helo or Sharon. They always do the "right" thing and it drives me nuts.
Seriously? Helo, while always having good intentions, is incredibly stubborn and very short-sighted. And Sharon is often extremely selfish, disregarding what other people think (even Helo) and pursuing her own agenda.
The characters are not multi-faceted by any stretch of the imagination. And I don't think character flaws are an important theme in the show at all. Flaws as a species Moore is quick to point out, but those never seem to be reflected in the "good" characters.
I couldn't disagree more, name any character in the show and I could pick out a couple of obvious flaws in their personality. The range and variation of these flaws has always to me made the show very believable in terms of the characters.
Regarding your other paragraph, there is a lot to respond to, but I'd like to make an overall point: the underlying theme of your resentment towards the end of the show seems to stem from the fact that not every single thing was explained. And for some reason, you seem to think that means that nothing was thought through, but I am completely unable to follow the logic here and can only assume you are used to straightforward shows where everything has a sensible explanation at the end. Plus, if every detail had been explained in full it would have made for an incredibly dull finale. I absolutely love the fact that, while all the characters' stories are resolved, it leaves a lot of questions unanswered and gives the viewer a chance to use their imagination.
Helo is stubborn, true, but that's not a real character flaw, it's a trait. Especially considering he's a stubborn paragon of virtue. Sharon can be selfish, yes, but that is still not a significant character flaw. That's not what it takes to make a well-rounded, complex character. Virtually everyone is selfish. And mostly she seems to be selfish concerning her own survival and that of her child's. Can't really call that a flaw.
Now to respond to some individual points. THOSE WHO WANT TO AVOID SPOILERS, STOP READING NOW:
And the problem when you set up a mythological plot line that you don't have an idea of how to close, it ends up being retarded in the end.
First of all, you are basing this on the assumption that Moore was making it up as he went along, which is a pretty huge assumption and one I entirely disagree with. Of course there will have been big specifics he won't have known from the beginning (as is the case with literally all TV shows, because you don't know how many series will be commissioned, whether you can get all the actors back, etc), but the overall direction is completely consistent throughout the four series.
Second of all, what do you even mean by "close"? As I've said, all the plot lines were resolved, but it left questions unanswered, which is infinitely more interesting than "it turns out there are gods" or "no gods I'm afraid, here's a perfectly sensible scientific explanation".
It's not a huge assumption. It's not even an assumption at all. Listen to the commentaries or podcasts he did (on the DVDs, and really an excellent feature because audio commentaries are wonderful at providing insight to the creative process of a series), or read some interviews: he liked to toss things up in the air and pick them up later. He cites a number of both included and not-created plotlines over the years that he more or less started because he thought they could be interesting, and then would just finish later. For example, in the first interview I found with Moore, he said (on the "make up on the fly" nature of the show): " I do feel good that the process I always believed in and really defended -- about feeling the story instinctively as you go through it, and not being tied to, "Oh, we know exactly how it's going to end up" -- that that was true. We were able to get there and could say, "We've been making this mosaic, and now we just need to put the final touches on it and we'll have a complete picture." There's loose threads and things that don't quite work, but I think that's in the nature of almost any show."
And I don't really feel that the direction was consistent through the four seasons. The first two seasons were more or less a traditional drama set in space with some action. Season 3 started introducing more mythological stuff, and by season 4 it was Lost in space.
As to my comment on knowing how to close, I'm talking about knowing how a certain plot line will end when you start it. Now, this is not necessary, I think, provided the plot is a realistic one that can be closed off by a realistic conclusion that would not need to be planned in advance. For example, Adama getting shot or the Cylons taking over New Caprica are both events where the plot does not necessarily need to be planned out beforehand because it's fairly easy to craft a comprehensible and realistic plot out of them. But when you have a shared dream sequence/prophecy plot in your show that takes up a good chunk of 4 seasons, you need to have a good idea how to close it or else it's going to feel weak. That the whole significance of the Opera House was to lead Hera down a hallway into the CIC was incredibly, incredibly weak, and feels to me that it was just tied off at the last moment.
As for the resolutions, it was not that it left questions unanswered that made it weak. It was that the few answers it gave were retarded. I loved the Sopranos finale. But the Battlestar finale I hated because: 1. It gave extraordinarily unsatisfying endings to some of the characters (Kara, Chief, Lee, MOTHERFUCKING CAVIL SHOOTS HIMSELF, Tigh) 2. It made no goddamn sense (angels? Deus ex machina? People want to farm 140,000 years before crops are domesticated?) 3. It was a catastrophically poor send-off to a show I had loved for two season, really liked for another, and tolerated for the last, and 4. It included a disingenuous, undeserved, subversive and frankly hypocritical shot at where humanity has made it to.
The Opera House vision was to direct Hera down a hallway. BIG FUCKING deal.
What a randomly bizarre thing to get worked up about.
I explained above why I was pissed about it. It was built up to be such a huge thing, so much was devoted to it, they ruined a good chunk of the season 3 finale for it, and it turned out to be the equivalent of a direction marker in a hallway. Pretty emblematic about a lot of the problems I had with the plots in season 3 and 4.
The first Earth they found was a fake Earth, and don't worry, there's a real one over here!
Um, no the first one they found was their real Earth and 13th colony. But it was destroyed and uninhabitable.
Yeah, you're right. But I still think it reeked of deus ex machina and was completely unsatisfying. The thing they had been questing for for 4 seasons turned out to be destroyed; I thought my faith was renewed in the show. But then they magically jump away perfectly to an ideal replacement because of a song or something. >:(
Kara wasn't alive or a Cylon, she was just an ANGEL! And so was Baltar's head 6!
That is the implication yes, but the details are left very open. The visions of Baltar and 6 in the other one's head are one thing, but Kara was a physical reality. Clearly you wanted some logical scientific explanation, but as I've said, that would have ultimately been incredibly dull and anti-climactic.
I wanted something, anything. I'm OK with some of the questions being unanswered, but it went full retard by just not giving anything. Such a cop-out. My roommate literally couldn't stop laughing at this scene when he watched it the first time, it was so ludicrous. A central figure comes back from the dead, does a whole bunch of stuff, single handedly drives the plot forward, and then disappears into thin air at the end without an explanation? Give me a break. Some things demand some form of explanation, because it reeks of an unresolvable tangent.
Because how can we retcon all the stuff we've already established? And the real reason Hera's so important? Because she's a massive whore and fucks the entire human population!
:lol Wut? Now you're just making things up.
Well, I'm not really. ;D See, at the end, you can hear the news describing the discovery of an "Eve" i.e., a human all present day humans are direct descendants of, and that it's Hera (or at least that's the clear implication). Which, considering there were 40,000 humans still alive at the end of the show means that the entire human population was either wittled down to a few people, everyone else was infertile, or... :o
What it really was was another attempt to retcon meaning; i.e. everyone's spent the last 2 and a half seasons saying how important this kid is, so how do we make her significant considering the only plot she's influenced is about 6 Amber Alert situations? Oh right! Display our vast knowledge of genetics by making her the direct ancestor of every modern human!
But yeah, I was at least happy in the knowledge that all my least favourite characters would die of starvation and famine. Because all the people who want to farm will discover that there's gonna be a long, long wait until crop domestication with a couple ice ages in between! And they're completely unprepared for life in the wild!
tl;dr: RAGE
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I feel like I'm talking to InTheNameOfGod about Lost.
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Me?
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Me?
Oh sorry, I guess I kind of combined you and guineapig.
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I feel like I'm talking to InTheNameOfGod about Lost.
But I like BSG. Hell, I love it. A lot.
But not the 4th season.
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tl;dr: RAGE
:lol
There's so much in your post that I could continue the discussion on, but to be honest what it comes down to is: We have different interpretations of various features of the show, and very very different opinions on the quality of the result. And I'm happy to agree to disagree, because we're clearly not going to influence each other's decisions.
I find the show wonderfully crafted, and although not everything was thought out way in advance, I am truly satisfied with how it finished (both times I've watched the show through I've been left feeling incredible by the end, which I can't say for any other show I've ever watched). You love how the show began but were disappointed (and enraged it seems :lol) by how it finished, and that's cool. Ultimately it all comes down to personal preference, and hey, we both feel the same way about the first 3/4 of the show. I think we should leave our bickering over the finale alone so we don't piss everyone else off. :P
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**************SPOILER FOR THOSE WHO DIDN'T MAKE IT TO SEASON 3 YET******************
The swine dumpster wanted to commit genocide, I couldn't believe it, she has stooped down to the cow shit that she is before when she took Boomer and Helo's baby away but this is a new low, Helo saved the day proving once again that he'd do whatever he finds right even if it means his ass.
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Committing "genocide" (I'm putting this in the loosest terms possible) against a race that is attempting to obliterate you is not amoral at all. That'd be like saying if you were attacked by a bear and had a gun it would be an awful thing for you to shoot it.
Helo "did the right thing" and continued to put human lives in danger, and shut have been flushed out an airlock imo.
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POSSIBLE SEASON 3 SPOILERS
Just watched exodus in its entirety. Such a great episode, the way that it turns out that number 2 had messed with starbuck's head so much, the way that the cheering turns so quickly to sorrow back on galactica, Boomer kneecapping the number 3 that catches her getting the launch keys. V good!
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Committing "genocide" (I'm putting this in the loosest terms possible) against a race that is attempting to obliterate you is not amoral at all. That'd be like saying if you were attacked by a bear and had a gun it would be an awful thing for you to shoot it.
Helo "did the right thing" and continued to put human lives in danger, and shut have been flushed out an airlock imo.
I agree it wouldn't be an awful thing to gun that bear but it would be a piece of shit thing to kill all the bears cause they're all potentially dangerous which they are.
Adama turned into such a hand puppet to the wrinkled hag in the last couple episodes I've seen, it's annoying me cause I loved that character.
**************SPOILER FOR WHOEVER DIDN'T MAKE IT PAST THE 13TH EPISODE OF SEASON 3******************
Now I've just seen episode 13 of the 3rd season and the scene where the whore was screaming at Baltar like screaming at her pimp for cutting her share really baffled me, I don't understand why Baltar is to blame about what happened on New Caprica, the cylons landed, much much more superior in power in every aspect, pointed a gun to his head, trying to imagine what he was supposed to do.. anything that he would have attempted would have simply resulted in his death which the cylons were always contemplating anyway! he's not a man of courage or honorable but he's not to blame imo!
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Fellas would it spoil anything if I watched Razor and The Plan now?
Got the DVDs here and they both seem to tell of events that happened older than the 3rd season.
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Do not watch The Plan unless you have finished the series. Razor should be watched between the 3rd and 4th seasons for best impact.
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Fellas would it spoil anything if I watched Razor and The Plan now?
Got the DVDs here and they both seem to tell of events that happened older than the 3rd season.
You don't really even have to watch The Plan. It was so freakin pointless. It's not..........terrible, but when you're done with the series, and if you say to yourself "jeez, I want to see more dean stockwell", then watch it. Otherwise, you're fine.
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Yeah but in fairness, Stockwell is amazing.
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Yeah but in fairness, Stockwell is amazing.
Yes he is. However, the "twist" or whatever you want to call it at the end of The Plan just felt a bit forced or something, I dunno.
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I dunno, I liked The Plan. It didn't provide any new ideas or anything (but it was never going to, seeing as it was done after the finale) but I liked the way it expanded on some of the characters that they never went into much detail with in the main series. And it tied some ideas up together nicely.
It was nothing special, but it complements the rest of the show nicely I think.
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I dunno, I liked The Plan. It didn't provide any new ideas or anything (but it was never going to, seeing as it was done after the finale) but I liked the way it expanded on some of the characters that they never went into much detail with in the main series. And it tied some ideas up together nicely.
It was nothing special, but it complements the rest of the show nicely I think.
I just think it was too much of an afterthought if that makes sense. If they actually got most of the cast to come back, instead of using so many scenes from previous episodes. Also, I found it odd that certain characters (one in particular) wasn't even mentioned once.
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Oh it certainly was an afterthought, which is a large part of why I don't find it particularly special. Doesn't mean there isn't plenty to like within it though.
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I'd also like to add that I seem to be the only person who had no problem with Dean Stockwells characters fate. Once the actor explained why he came up with it, it made more sense and I love it.
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I'd also like to add that I seem to be the only person who had no problem with Dean Stockwells characters fate. Once the actor explained why he came up with it, it made more sense and I love it.
I loved it the moment I saw it.
SPOILERS
What moral principle was Cavil fighting for? Trick question - there was none. Once he knew he was fraked, he didn't want to suffer the consequences of his actions.
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Exactly, just awesome.
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Yeah I think it perfectly displays his character.
It's funny how much I like Cavil considering he's probably the most one-dimensional character in the show. I think it's because Dean Stockwell is just so damn cool.
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Yeah I think it perfectly displays his character.
It's funny how much I like Cavil considering he's probably the most one-dimensional character in the show. I think it's because Dean Stockwell is just so damn cool.
I love when they first figure out he's a Cylon and they arrest him and one of his clones who's a priest and the priest says "there is no god". I dunno, just gets me every time.
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Confused again, finished season 3 and was about to watch Razor when I discovered by accident there's some webisodes called Razor Flashbacks that I haven't seen and don't have, I thought The Resistence and Face of The Enemy were the only webisodes.
Can I just watch Razor till I find a way to obtain the Razor Flashbacks webisodes? or are they too connected?
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Confused again, finished season 3 and was about to watch Razor when I discovered by accident there's some webisodes called Razor Flashbacks that I haven't seen and don't have, I thought The Resistence and Face of The Enemy were the only webisodes.
Can I just watch Razor till I find a way to obtain the Razor Flashbacks webisodes? or are they too connected?
I never saw the Webisodes and I'm fine.
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All righty I'll follow your example.
Razor here we go :)
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The Razor flashbacks don't really add much, and I think quite a lot of the material pops up throughout the actual thing anyway.
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On a side note before I go:
**********SERIOUS SPOILER IF YOU HAVEN'T FINISHED SEASON 3*********
So we know who 4 of the final 5 cylons are now, gotta say the realization moment of their calling and their way to the spot where they met; was amazing and breathtaking in every sense, Gosh the music got the build up to be so intense, with that acknowledged and appreciated I also gotta say that seemed like a banged up rushed job picking these 4 people, it's like they simply just wanted faces we already know, almost like they were picked randomly, how long has the Cylons had the skinjobs? since before the first Cylon war?! it must be because Adama knew Tigh back then.
All the other choices seemed lame and misplaced, except for Tory, that's the only choice that seemed special and creative, we really never looked deep into her character yet we saw her quite often, great fit.
Also the Cheif's reaction was nowhere near expected after his own previous struggle with the subject matter and doubt of being a Cylon in season 2.
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It will make more sense. Trust me.
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It will make more sense. Trust me.
That. Just keep watching, it gets more and more epic.
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SPOILERS
I wanna say that it doesn't make them seem less random really, but that you will be cooler with the choices and so forth, but I can't. But I just did. But I shouldn't have, but I did anyway. So suck it.
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Well, no it doesn't make the choices less random seeming, but that doesn't really matter, it fits it all together nicely and it widens the scope of BSG's story immensely. I actually think that revelation in series 4 is one of my favourites of the entire show.
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Well, no it doesn't make the choices less random seeming, but that doesn't really matter, it fits it all together nicely and it widens the scope of BSG's story immensely. I actually think that revelation in series 4 is one of my favourites of the entire show.
I was so unsure of how I felt about the 5th cylon. I mean, at one point you've thought about it so much that no matter who they chose, it would almost seem like a let down, but at the same time, they were hardly predictable in my eyes.
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Confused again, finished season 3 and was about to watch Razor when I discovered by accident there's some webisodes called Razor Flashbacks that I haven't seen and don't have, I thought The Resistence and Face of The Enemy were the only webisodes.
Can I just watch Razor till I find a way to obtain the Razor Flashbacks webisodes? or are they too connected?
I never saw the Webisodes and I'm fine.
The Razor flashbacks don't really add much, and I think quite a lot of the material pops up throughout the actual thing anyway.
The webisodes are part of the dvd edition of Razor, although I'm not sure 100% of their content is in. They were just for leading up to the cable airing of a shorter version of Razor than is on dvd. That's basically why the dvd is called the extended edition.
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ohhhhhhh that explains something. Since I only saw the DVD, I have no idea what parts are extended.
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BIG OLD SPOILERS, LIKE SERIOUSLY, DON'T READ THIS UNLESS YOU'VE SEEN UP TO NO EXIT
Actually, once you understand the final five backstory, there's sort of an underlying logic to the choices. All five of them were major resistance figures. Why did Cavil let Tigh out of prison except to mess with him? Anders, Tory, Ellen and Tyrol were major resistance figures too. There's a real sense that the evens of 301-304 were orchestrated by Cavil in part to continue his experiment in showing them the futility of humanity.
Plus, random or not, Colonel Tigh never would have been half the character he ended up being if he wasn't a Cylon. It gave his friendship with Adama a real underlying conflict, and made that friendship all the more powerful when they made peace with it.
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On a side note before I go:
**********SERIOUS SPOILER IF YOU HAVEN'T FINISHED SEASON 3*********
So we know who 4 of the final 5 cylons are now, gotta say the realization moment of their calling and their way to the spot where they met; was amazing and breathtaking in every sense, Gosh the music got the build up to be so intense, with that acknowledged and appreciated I also gotta say that seemed like a banged up rushed job picking these 4 people, it's like they simply just wanted faces we already know, almost like they were picked randomly, how long has the Cylons had the skinjobs? since before the first Cylon war?! it must be because Adama knew Tigh back then.
All the other choices seemed lame and misplaced, except for Tory, that's the only choice that seemed special and creative, we really never looked deep into her character yet we saw her quite often, great fit.
Also the Cheif's reaction was nowhere near expected after his own previous struggle with the subject matter and doubt of being a Cylon in season 2.
It will not make more sense. Trust me.
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Even though we've just been discussing why it makes sense?
Just because you don't understand it doesn't mean nobody else will.
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Even though we've just been discussing why it makes sense?
Just because you don't understand it doesn't mean nobody else will.
OF COURSE IT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE, HOW DID ADAMA KILL LOCKE BUT THEN HAVE LOCKE COME BACK ....OH FRACK IT, THEY NEVER SHOULD HAVE INTRODUCED JACOB AS THE CYLON GOD.
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TURNS OUT IT WAS ALL A DREAM LOL
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5 episodes into the first season and I can't stop watching the show!!
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Woot, a newcomer!
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Hurrah, now that Timmy (and possibly metty) have reached the end, we were needing a new newcomer! :D
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Reaching the end was very sad. I need a new show!
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Reaching the end was very sad. I need a new show!
Yeah! I haven't been able to find a TV show anywhere near as epic as BSG.
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:sadpanda:
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After getting past the miniseries, I'm on to the episodes. So far, I've only watched four, but I can already see how this is capable of being just as good IF NOT BETTER than firely.
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There is no such thing as getting past the miniseries, it was great all on its own. Back when it first aired I remember being shocked at how much I loved the whole thing, only expecting something passable. Then we had to hope for the go ahead of the series, which I'm not sure I've ever been that excited about the prospect of a possible tv show.
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After getting past the miniseries, I'm on to the episodes. So far, I've only watched four, but I can already see how this is capable of being just as good IF NOT BETTER than firely.
On an episode by episode basis, Firefly is better, but it was way too short lived to call it better than all of Battlestar.
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Firefly is not better than BSG. Firefly is largely comedic, despite it's large amount of drama. BSG is 100% sci fi drama. It's not fair to compare.
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Even though I've only watched 6 episodes... 33 is fucking great!!!
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It's the perfect hour of television.
(Mad props to those who get the reference.)
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Oh I totally forgot people told me to watch Firefly ages ago. As soon as I'm done with True Blood I'll start watching it :D
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It's the perfect hour of television.
(Mad props to those who get the reference.)
That might be a bit of a stretch (Helo's storyline being present in this episode pisses me off somewhat), but it's certainly a contender for best BSG episode. What I like about it (and something that was unfortunately not visited almost ever again) was a. the complete lack of control on the behalf of the protagonists in both the situation and the unfolding plot and b. a somewhat realistic approach to the level of psychological stress they were under.
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So, I'm into the second season and I just got done watching the 2-part episode Home... wow! Just amazing!
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Bears, beets, battlestar galactica!
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Somewhat related, I've been watching all the episodes of Star Trek TNG again and noticed that the original increase in quality came when Ronald Moore started writing episodes.
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Damn that intro music is so fucking epic!!!
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I finished season 3 a few days ago... HOLY SHIT! Those last 10 minutes of Crossroads Part II turn the series completely on its head!!!
Also, that whole speech Apollo makes in the court... damn good acting!
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Crossroads bugs me for a number of reasons.
The stuff besides the "Who's the other 5 Cylons" is really good. There are some legitimately great moments there. But it's ruined by the awful other scenes. I mean, Tigh's testimony could've been one of the best emotional moments of the series, if it hadn't been played off for fucking laughs at the end of it. Also, Lee's speech would've been so much better if it had been even remotely realistic; I don't think you have to be a lawyer to realize that you cannot testify in defence of your own client. It could've been delivered as a closing argument, would've made no difference, and would've still claimed some sense of realism.
Also I hate the whole Kara comes back from the dead shit. Crossroads is where BSG jumped the shark imo.
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About Lee's speech, what you point out is true and even the episode say those things, but it's allowed after the judges themselves say they want to hear what he has to say.
I don't know how realistic that might be, but I guess that's one of those moments where you have to do the whole suspension of disbelief thing.
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Well, every show/movie takes liberties with the courtroom. Mostly because it's supposed to be boring as hell, which doesn't work well for a medium that's supposed to be entertaining.
But what Lee does in the courtroom is about as realistic as this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQc4qMNPp0o
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:lol
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It's been a while since I've seen that episode, but isn't Lee's speech all about how things are all fucked up and don't make any sense, that they've thrown the books out on old laws and morals? So the fact that his appearance on the dias doesn't make sense only strengthens his argument!
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It's been a while since I've seen that episode, but isn't Lee's speech all about how things are all fucked up and don't make any sense, that they've thrown the books out on old laws and morals? So the fact that his appearance on the dias doesn't make sense only strengthens his argument!
What I like is this one part of how it happens, I'm kinda paraphrasing:
Romo "I'd like to call my associate to the stand."
Judge "That isn't possible."
Romo "I can cite seven precedents off the top of my head."
How likely is it Romo's lying there?
Crossroads has a lot of problems, such as the speech going on too long, but the good parts of the speech are really good.
Something I like is how Lee's speech not only got Baltar off, but actually reverberated through Adama and the ship. After Season 3, the military discipline got so much looser, getting to the point where Adama was actually drinking on duty. Generally, TV and movie speeches usually aren't believably convincing. By having it resonate so deeply in the cast, it adds a sort of secondary layer of believability.
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It's been a while since I've seen that episode, but isn't Lee's speech all about how things are all fucked up and don't make any sense, that they've thrown the books out on old laws and morals? So the fact that his appearance on the dias doesn't make sense only strengthens his argument!
What I like is this one part of how it happens, I'm kinda paraphrasing:
Romo "I'd like to call my associate to the stand."
Judge "That isn't possible."
Romo "I can cite seven precedents off the top of my head."
How likely is it Romo's lying there?
But how would the judges have known that he was lying? The judges where chosen from the captains that were on the fleet, and the episodes before it and Crossroads do nothing to show if any of the captains had previous knowledge of law and/or court proceedings (We know Adama's father was a lawyer, but from what they show in the series Adama didn't care for it). So Romo could've easily made it up, that was my first thought, but if in fact the judges had no previous knowledge of court then it's entirely possible they would've trusted the guy who was a lawyer before the Cylon attack.
But he could've also be saying the truth, the prosecutor didn't fight when Romo made the seven precedents comment.
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But how would the judges have known that he was lying? The judges where chosen from the captains that were on the fleet, and the episodes before it and Crossroads do nothing to show if any of the captains had previous knowledge of law and/or court proceedings (We know Adama's father was a lawyer, but from what they show in the series Adama didn't care for it). So Romo could've easily made it up, that was my first thought, but if in fact the judges had no previous knowledge of court then it's entirely possible they would've trusted the guy who was a lawyer before the Cylon attack.
But he could've also be saying the truth, the prosecutor didn't fight when Romo made the seven precedents comment.
That's why it's awesome if he was lying. No one else was going to call him on it.
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It's been a while since I've seen that episode, but isn't Lee's speech all about how things are all fucked up and don't make any sense, that they've thrown the books out on old laws and morals? So the fact that his appearance on the dias doesn't make sense only strengthens his argument!
What I like is this one part of how it happens, I'm kinda paraphrasing:
Romo "I'd like to call my associate to the stand."
Judge "That isn't possible."
Romo "I can cite seven precedents off the top of my head."
How likely is it Romo's lying there?
Crossroads has a lot of problems, such as the speech going on too long, but the good parts of the speech are really good.
Something I like is how Lee's speech not only got Baltar off, but actually reverberated through Adama and the ship. After Season 3, the military discipline got so much looser, getting to the point where Adama was actually drinking on duty. Generally, TV and movie speeches usually aren't believably convincing. By having it resonate so deeply in the cast, it adds a sort of secondary layer of believability.
I agree. The end of Season 3 was just amazing, that speech along with the various revelations made for such great viewing!
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Also, Romo Lampkin has been my favorite guest star by miles! Admiral Cain was lame, they went so far to make her be so antagonistic and hated that it was just lame.
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Also, Romo Lampkin has been my favorite guest star by miles! Admiral Cain was lame, they went so far to make her be so antagonistic and hated that it was just lame.
wut
Best character in the show.
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Admiral Cain?
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Admiral Cain?
The Pegasus CO
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Admiral Cain?
The Pegasus CO
I know who she was. I was asking Guinea if he was indeed saying Cain was the best character in the show.
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She is, imo.
After Doc Cottle :metal
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Cain was good, but I definitely prefer Lampkin.
But GP is right, Cottle is the best them!
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I dunno if we're considering him a guest star, but if Cavil is one, isn't he the best by miles?
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I dunno if we're considering him a guest star, but if Cavil is one, isn't he the best by miles?
Cavil is amazing. He's the only reason, also, to watch The Plan, if you so choose.
I know a lot of people have problems with the way he....you know, at the end, but after thinking about it, I thought it was great.
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I agree. It seemed quite out of the blue when I first saw the finale, but I get the feeling that part of their intention in making The Plan was to expand on why he did it. That alone makes The Plan worth watching, even if there isn't a great deal else to it.
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Appearently his, you know was actually Dean Stockwells idea. Originally he was gonna go out a different way, but Dean Stockwell said it would be more in character to do it the way he did.
The only weak part of the finale that I can think of right now was that whole boomer thing with "tell the admiral I owe him one". It's like they invented that whole idea right then and there and threw in a flashback to make it seem ok, but it was pointless and out of no where. She should have owed him one when she shot him.
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Various thoughts (MAJOR HUGE SPOILERS):
- Dean Stockwell was 100% correct about Cavil. He had no cause based on any meaningful personal belief that he could have kept trying to survive for, even the basic notion of trying to survive for the sake of continuing as a person since he knew his objectives would be impossible to make. I loved it when it happened, made perfect sense to me.
- I still like The Plan, in spite of its flaws. There's an actual story being told about what makes Cavil who he is, the little narrative fillings were pretty nice, and I liked the Simon storyline. Plus, when they play his speech from No Exit (ending with "I want to be something more") over the final scene of them being air-locked, it's a poignant moment.
- The Boomer thing in the Finale makes sense if you had the pre-existing knowledge she was a crappy pilot, thus not making it come out of no where. That moment in the finale adds the layer that Adama saved her purely out of his own generosity. I liked it, it's a touching moment. It is tough though to say she didn't already owe Adama one after shooting him, so I dunno.
Fun fact about the finale, Ron Moore pulled the rough ideas for both the Kara/Lee and Roslin flashback stories from the series bible.
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Looks like it's time for me to whip out my hammer of discontent.
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Various thoughts on others' various thoughts (MAJOR HUGE SPOILERS):
- Dean Stockwell was 50% wrong on Cavil. Or 0%. I don't know. Cavil's main drive, unlike the rest of the Cylons, was not religious. It was based off of bitterness, anger, and resentment. At the end, him just killing himself is entirely anticlimactic. Cavil should've fought to the end. He would've wanted to take as many humans and Cylons with him. I could see him killing himself by blowing up the ship or venting it or wrecking the engine; I agree he didn't really have any real desire to live, but the character would still've preferred to put bullets in humans rather than himself.
- The Plan was damn mediocre. It was cool to see Cavil I guess, but it still didn't address the major plot holes about the final five. The new Battlestars were sexy as hell. Would've liked to see more of that. And the nuke scene was gangster.
- The Boomer thing in the Finale doesn't make sense. I was so fucking glad Adama shot her. Her apology and defection was so lame and tacked on after she's switched sides 3 or 4 times. I wouldn't even have let her open her mouth.
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Adama didn't shoot boomer. Athena did. Or am I insane?
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Various thoughts on others' various thoughts (MAJOR HUGE SPOILERS):
- The Plan was damn mediocre. It was cool to see Cavil I guess, but it still didn't address the major plot holes about the final five.
Which ones?
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Guinea is never going to be satisfied with BSG, I wouldn't bother trying to argue.
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Guinea is never going to be satisfied with BSG, I wouldn't bother trying to argue.
I like outside perspectives on what's essentially me as a huge dork crushing on the hot cheerleader of Sci-Fi shows.
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Adama didn't shoot boomer. Athena did. Or am I insane?
Yeah, you're right. I just got things mixed up in my head there.
I wish he'd shot her, though.
Various thoughts on others' various thoughts (MAJOR HUGE SPOILERS):
- The Plan was damn mediocre. It was cool to see Cavil I guess, but it still didn't address the major plot holes about the final five.
Which ones?
There's a couple. The timeline. How they got to Earth. How Tigh served in the first Cylon war. Whether or not they age. Why, if they were just random shmucks from other-Earth, did they know all the stuff about resurrection.
The biggest one is this: how did they all survive? Most people say the Colonies were 20 billion people. The original fleet of survivors is about 50,000. That puts your average chance of survival at a staggering 1 in 400,000.
Now, it's obviously different for some characters. Ellen was the only one who was meant to get away; and even then it was like a 1 in 4 shot.
Being on a military vessel is interesting. Were you more or less likely to survive? Hard to tell, but considering the fleet was around 120 battlestars, and if you account for Galactica's old school style, I'd say Galactica had about a 1 in 20 shot of surviving the initial attack. So Tigh and the Chief were more likely to survive; but the fact that they were on the same ship is also very unlikely (probably 1 in 200 or so considering where a Colonel and a Chief Petty Officer could be assigned to).
Anders and Tory however were in the 1 in 400,000 category. They both got out of it by pure luck. But that's my point; the series never explains why (except for Ellen) all the final five got away. It was astronomically unlikely for them to do it by themselves, let alone all of them. Imo, it would've been better if the final five, were mostly dead (1 or 2 I could buy, at most). It's not like the Cylons had this master plan to allow Pyramid teams, political aides, and decrepit Battlestars get away (while looking like they were trying very hard to do so).
Now obviously, there is going to be some suspension of disbelief with a TV show. But it's sort of like this: "Go to Google Maps, pick a random state, then a random city and street name. We'll wait. Back? OK, did you end up on the street that we randomly selected (Oak Street in Starke, Florida)? Of fucking course you didn't. But if you were written by JJ Abrams you would have."
https://www.cracked.com/article/18345_5-gaping-plot-holes-hollywood-knows-you-wont-notice/
Biggest plot hole in the show, imo. Absolutely gaping.
Guinea is never going to be satisfied with BSG, I wouldn't bother trying to argue.
I don't think I'll ever be satisfied with season 4, but discussion is good. I'm quite surprised that I'm the only person who hated it. All the people I know despised it.
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There's a couple. The timeline.
Got me there. This is even referred to on the BattlestarWiki as the season 2 timeline discontinuity because the writers magically jumped ahead three months.
How they got to Earth.
Why is this a plot hole.
How Tigh served in the first Cylon war.
He didn't. The memories are fake.
Whether or not they age.
Significant seven do not, final five do.
Why, if they were just random shmucks from other-Earth, did they know all the stuff about resurrection.
They weren't random schmucks. Tyrol and Tory built the resurrection technology.
The biggest one is this: how did they all survive? Most people say the Colonies were 20 billion people. The original fleet of survivors is about 50,000. That puts your average chance of survival at a staggering 1 in 400,000.
Now, it's obviously different for some characters. Ellen was the only one who was meant to get away; and even then it was like a 1 in 4 shot.
Being on a military vessel is interesting. Were you more or less likely to survive? Hard to tell, but considering the fleet was around 120 battlestars, and if you account for Galactica's old school style, I'd say Galactica had about a 1 in 20 shot of surviving the initial attack. So Tigh and the Chief were more likely to survive; but the fact that they were on the same ship is also very unlikely (probably 1 in 200 or so considering where a Colonel and a Chief Petty Officer could be assigned to).
Anders and Tory however were in the 1 in 400,000 category. They both got out of it by pure luck. But that's my point; the series never explains why (except for Ellen) all the final five got away. It was astronomically unlikely for them to do it by themselves, let alone all of them. Imo, it would've been better if the final five, were mostly dead (1 or 2 I could buy, at most). It's not like the Cylons had this master plan to allow Pyramid teams, political aides, and decrepit Battlestars get away (while looking like they were trying very hard to do so).
Now obviously, there is going to be some suspension of disbelief with a TV show. But it's sort of like this: "Go to Google Maps, pick a random state, then a random city and street name. We'll wait. Back? OK, did you end up on the street that we randomly selected (Oak Street in Starke, Florida)? Of fucking course you didn't. But if you were written by JJ Abrams you would have."
https://www.cracked.com/article/18345_5-gaping-plot-holes-hollywood-knows-you-wont-notice/
Biggest plot hole in the show, imo. Absolutely gaping.
Well.... The Plan shows how they all lived. Cavil could have timed the attack so Anders would live (a bit of a stretch but not impossible), and we see him personally trying to save Ellen. Everything you're describing is definitely a tubgirlesque stretching of logic, but at some point wouldn't you rather the writers just tell a story?
The final five plot isn't elegant (it's what happens when you improv the mythology of your show), but it works, and the only real plot hole you've pointed out has nothing to do with them.
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I just finished the series... OMFG was this show amazing!!!
One thing, though, they kinda made a big deal about Starbuck being "the harbinger of death" and nothing comes of it, unless it was meant ironically.
EDIT: Reading through most the thread now, I do agree with GuineaPig about the opera house visions, that was really underwhelming after being built up since the first season.
Metty not liking Roslin... LOL
Roslin is awesome! And "swine pig stooping to genocide" they've been hunted for 3 years and the human race has been reduced to 50,000 and here you are given the chance to end the war and your persecution... I would commit that genocide in a heartbeat! No fucking doubt I would!
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Just finished, this show will be sorely missed, I spaced out the seasons by months and spaced out the episodes as much as I could to make them last, according to my first post in this thread I started watching in May 2009.
First of all thanks for recommending this show fellas, I had a blast.
Been avoiding this thread for a while and never really read through it except for posts directed at me, now I can read it start to end, should be fun.
SPOILERS AHEAD
Some thoughts:
1- Felix Gaeta's story line through out the series and how it came to end has been one of few story lines flawlessly executed with minimal holes in the reasoning, compared to most of the characters on this show that is.
Great performance by the actor imo, one of the best on the show.
I admired the character so much and find him so honorable and respectful, it saddened me to see him go in the disgraceful way he did, The Oath and Blood on The Scales are two of the best episodes and I have to admit I was choking up a bit by the end of the second one.
Almost everyone else involved in the mutiny seemed to get what they had coming cause it never felt like they were in it for any reason but blind stupidity and consistent lack of understanding or trusting Adama's judgement, I dunno if Selix is dead but it was good to see Racetrack die in the finale.
2- So Starbuck when we first found out there was a dead Starbuck on dead Earth I thought; the fact that there's a living Starbuck could be a hint that there's a living earth, without further thoughts on the why or how this happened, now the show is over and I frankly don't understand what happened with Starbuck, since Lee saw he raptor explode to the end, was she supposed to be an angel? what the deuce happened there?
3- I didn't like the feeling that the writers were making stuff up as they go along, I know a lot of tv shows do that but it was very obvious here that the show didn't have a direction until almost mid season 4.
4- How's there a Gaius Baltar after 1500 years that knows everything about the story? and the Six with him?
5- The actor playing Cavil gave a weak performance through the fourth season imo, his scenes with Ellen in the base ship when she came back were almost kinda vague to me as I struggle to understand the point through the actor's stage-like-over-the-top performance, like when he was talking about how he felt limited by his body and by the language he has to use to express himself, dunno.
cavil was a role I would have liked to see Hugo Weaving play, if the Matrix never existed that is heh
This brings me to the astonishing aspects BSG has in common with The Matrix trilogy, the man vs machine theme handling, especially with the "the only way to salvation is together" common factor between the two worlds, there's something to be said there but I'm too tired of typing now.
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4- How's there a Gaius Baltar after 1500 years that knows everything about the story? and the Six with him?
I thought it was pretty obvious that the "Head-Six" and "Head-Baltar" seen in the series where some kind of divine beings, angels if you will, "Head-Six" always told Baltar she was sent by god to protect him and show him there was a god.
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Oh that makes sense, somehow it didn't occur to me that these were the head ones.
Laura Roslin hasn't been as much of a bitch on season 4 as she was on previous seasons, as soon as the religious angle dropped it seemed to me that was what angered me all along, driven to do anything for a religious belief make me sick, also it could be that was no longer opposing Adama.
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Speaking of BSG-related things I wish didn't exist: https://www.avclub.com/articles/another-battlestar-galactica-spinoff-on-the-way,46718/
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Why don't you wish it existed?
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Inspired by my "33" review, I was wondering what people's favourite BSG episodes are.
Mine go like so:
1. Resurrection Ship
2. 33
3. Pegasus
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3. Sometime a Great Notion
2. 33
1. Exodus Part II
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So I've only see the first season. Me and my girlfriend might start watching the rest of the episodes at a painfully slow one-episode per-week rate, just to give us something to do together when we're just talking online.
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I don't think I'll ever be satisfied with season 4, but discussion is good. I'm quite surprised that I'm the only person who hated it. All the people I know despised it.
You are not alone. I didn't care for this series either. It had an excellent start and just fizzled around season 2.5 and 3. Every now and then they would come up with some interesting ideas but I never really connected with any of the major characters, it got incredibly soapy in my opinion and the final 5 I thought was ridiculous especially the last one revealed.
this was a good show for what it was, but it really didn't have anything going for it other than pace. the character's although interesting were unlikable and hard to connect with, the plot was continually bleak and therefore you never had an opportunity to have any fun, it was always dramatic, and there were too many twists and questions because of these twists. In the end, I just had a very hard time finishing the series. At about season 4 I just read ahead because I wasn't interested in spending 45 minutes an episode anymore. I just wanted the cliff notes and that was that.
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SPOILERS! MY GOD! SPOILERS THAT RUIN THE WHOLE SHOW ARE AHEAD!
One thing, though, they kinda made a big deal about Starbuck being "the harbinger of death" and nothing comes of it, unless it was meant ironically.
It wasn't ironic. Humans and Cylons ceased to exist as separate races because she jumped Galactica to Earth II. I'm not sure how much I liked it. "Harbinger of Death" is a lot darker than what actually happened. But then again, perhaps by accident Ronald D Moore brilliantly faked out every Galactica fan with the ending of the show.
On one hand, Starbuck is the Harbinger of Death and Daybreak seems to be about Galactica going on a suicide mission. On the other hand, they drop in little hints like "Not an ending, but a beginning" and "the miracle from the angels is coming." When the utterly unexpected uplifting ending happens, you can't say it was a complete left turn.
(For what it's worth, I didn't plan on the dark and nihilistic ending that most BSG fans did. But I think absolutely everyone who watched the show stared at the screen in disbelief as the surviving main characters got unabashedly uplifting endings. It makes sense now, but at the time I was in shock.)
Inspired by my "33" review, I was wondering what people's favourite BSG episodes are.
Mine go like so:
1. Resurrection Ship
2. 33
3. Pegasus
I can't rank them. I'll just point out really notable ones:
- 33 - Probably the best standalone episode.
-Kobol's Last Gleaming Parts 1 and 2 - This was when BSG put everything together and started really living up to its potential.
- Fragged - One of the best episodes of the show, and no one talks about it. Every scene involving the landing party is virtually perfect. And Tigh declares martial law.
- Pegasus - I dunno why, but I feel like this is in some ways the best single episode. The cliffhanger is maybe the best ending of of any episode of any TV series. Not just because it's exciting, but because at that point you're exactly in Adama's shoes. Dealing with Admiral Cain has become too horrible and the line in the sand needs to be drawn. Even when the steps out of the Raptor something seems wrong.
In the abstract, the story is so basic: Pegasus arrives and you think it's awesome, they mess up the harmony the cast has developed, they turn out to be bad, Adama can't put up with it anymore. Unlike 33, it's not that inherently intriguing. But every aspect of the execution twists the premise just enough to be interesting while playing it completely straight. I need to stop because I write even more and get boring.
- Black Market - Just kidding.
- Scar - One of the ten best of the show. More interestingly, I wrote "Scarred" at first and fortunately noticed it.
- Lay Down Your Burdens - The show jumps another level and becomes this surreal amalgamation of everything I enjoy in TV. Drama, politics, suspense, sci-fi, darkness, characters, humor. Nothing is missing.
- Occupation/Precipice/Exodus Part 1/Exodus Part 2 - The peak of the show. The political allegory is maybe the best I've seen in any show. We see the characters at (up to this point), their most unvarnished and the writing perfectly exposes their deeper natures. It's grittier than most of the show. The emotion of Exodus Part 2 is huge. Most shows try to do the moral ambiguity thing and fail miserably. The situations aren't clear to the characters, but to the viewer the solutions seem obvious. In this case, it really is difficult to argue (a) Tigh shouldn't have been using suicide bombers and (b) the Adamas shouldn't have just left New Caprica behind. Actually, I wouldn't even argue (a). Suicide bombers were the correct tactic. See? I'm rooting for the suicide bombers? Isn't that good writing?
Strangely, I've watched this with my dad and a friend, and neither of them got that into these episodes. And they're the lowest rated episodes of the show. Why this is I don't know.
- Unfinished Business - Pure drama. Works awesomely.
- The Woman King - Black Market has good moments (such as Lee shooting the Green Beret from Commando) and is kind of entertaining. This episode makes me angry from start to finish. Nothing makes sense while simultaneously I knew exactly how it would end. The reality matrix of a show shouldn't fall apart that completely.
- A Day in the Life - Not one of the best, but underrated. Just wanted to say that.
- Sometimes a Great Notion - Took a day to recover from.
- The Oath - This had the sense of pace of a network action show while being good like a premium cable show. Just one awesome scene after another.
- Daybreak Parts 1 and 2 - I cry like a bitch when I watch these episodes. Yeah, whatever.
Speaking of BSG-related things I wish didn't exist: https://www.avclub.com/articles/another-battlestar-galactica-spinoff-on-the-way,46718/
I'm not confident in this show's quality. Money seems to be the prime motivator.
And I'm done.
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I wasn't excited about Blood and Chrome at all when it was announced, but I'm warming up to it. Scar was awesome, and I've wanted a fighter/viper/x-wing pilot show for years. I have to see who they put on the production staff before I get my hopes up though.
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I wasn't excited about Blood and Chrome at all when it was announced, but I'm warming up to it. Scar was awesome, and I've wanted a fighter/viper/x-wing pilot show for years. I have to see who they put on the production staff before I get my hopes up though.
Is there any updates on B&C? Aside from the fact that it's a new BSG spinoff about a young Adama in the first cylon war.
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I think the only other thing we know is that David Eick is involved.
But the BSG executive producers are both tied to a ton of projects right now, so who knows if that even means anything.
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As long as the show does NOT have the same writers as Caprica.
Also, a few cameos from Caprica would be neat. Or else that show is going to be completely lost in history.
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SPOILERS! MY GOD! SPOILERS THAT RUIN THE WHOLE SHOW ARE AHEAD!
One thing, though, they kinda made a big deal about Starbuck being "the harbinger of death" and nothing comes of it, unless it was meant ironically.
It wasn't ironic. Humans and Cylons ceased to exist as separate races because she jumped Galactica to Earth II. I'm not sure how much I liked it. "Harbinger of Death" is a lot darker than what actually happened. But then again, perhaps by accident Ronald D Moore brilliantly faked out every Galactica fan with the ending of the show.
On one hand, Starbuck is the Harbinger of Death and Daybreak seems to be about Galactica going on a suicide mission. On the other hand, they drop in little hints like "Not an ending, but a beginning" and "the miracle from the angels is coming." When the utterly unexpected uplifting ending happens, you can't say it was a complete left turn.
(For what it's worth, I didn't plan on the dark and nihilistic ending that most BSG fans did. But I think absolutely everyone who watched the show stared at the screen in disbelief as the surviving main characters got unabashedly uplifting endings. It makes sense now, but at the time I was in shock.)
I see what you mean, but when someone hears "she is the harbinger of death" you'd think like Starbuck will we the downfall of humans to the cylons not the one to end the separation between the races because of finding a new Earth. But then again, few things on this show were as one would think.
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So no one else but me felt really bad for Gaeta?
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So no one else but me felt really bad for Gaeta?
The man was tragic. He suffered, did what he felt was right, and suffered the consequences for it.
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Indeed, his story is tragic. But in the end he acted like a complete dick, so deserved what he got.
And what's wrong with Caprica? I'm really enjoying it so far.
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Indeed, his story is tragic. But in the end he acted like a complete dick, so deserved what he got.
And what's wrong with Caprica? I'm really enjoying it so far.
Well I saw the initial movie thing for it. The one that ended with her waking up as a cylon. That was great I thought. Really played into BSG and explained some stuff.
Then the show kept going, and I gave it a chance. It got really into the mafia stuff and VR worlds and I just never had any idea what the hell the point of any of it was. Meanwhile this girl is a cylon but won't tell anyone for......well who knows why, and this guy is madly in love with her even though he just sees it as a big machine. Didn't make much sense.
I kinda just stopped caring after a few episodes and gave up. When the whole season comes out on DVD, I'll pick it up. But the writing just seemed to be going no where. Which is sad cause it had a superb cast who gave great performances. And it was great seeing Paula Malcomson again even if she wasn't saying the word "jew" alot.
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So no one else but me felt really bad for Gaeta?
SPOILERS
Gaeta's downfall is another part of the whole BSG experience I really didn't care for, and that was in the area of the webisodes. I tried very hard to at least watch them but I could never get the episode to load properly, ergo I couldn't watch these episodes but I figured, well, I don't think it will matter. But in the case of Gaeta it mattered a LOT since his downfall starts IN a webisode. If you are going to have a character arc that MEANS something DON'T put it online. Write it into the show. BSGs usage of the internet in so many words pissed me off and I know I'm being a dick about it, but I was really pissed about this. I liked the character and this whole change of attitude disturbed me a little. I was thinking to myself, so getting your leg amputated makes you a traitor? There was a disconnect and when I read what happened to him in a webisode it "sort of" made sense. well, his downfall is still a mystery to me, but at least the webisode tried to give us a clue as to why it happened.
Actually I was hoping Moore would have taken that action from Gaeta and gave it to Saul. Saul in my mind made much more sense in that he could have blamed Adama for the death of his wife. That coupled with Adama's action with Tyrol's wife basically having a gun to her head to stop Tryol's strike, should have put Tyrol (his that his name?) along side of Saul. Having those two do what Gaeta did makes much more sense to me that just giving it to Gaeta. This was a plot device that I really thought was poorly thought out and was disappointing to see Moore come up with somethign awesome, but not give it the edge it could have had. But as we all know both Tyrol and Saul were in the final five which again was another source of "what the hell?" for me.
When it was announced the final five, my guesses where the following: Anders, Baltar, Roslin, Helo and Saul.
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Recently got the complete series on Blu-ray and it and it looks about 1000 times better!
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Does it improve the writing in the 4th season?
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Does it improve the writing in the 4th season?
Sigh.
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:lol
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So I'm watching season 2 again and just finished disc 3 on Epiphanies... I know realize that disc 4 starts with Black Market and Scar!
OH GAWD!!!!
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I like "Scar".
"Black Market" is the worst non-Angeli episode of the first three seasons.
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In before GuineaPig.
Edit: DAMNIT!
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I'm just the Eastwood to your Van Cleef.
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I'm just the Eastwood to your Van Cleef.
GET OFF MY LAWN!
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When I think of the worst episodes of the series, those 2 instantly come to mind.
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Dimitrius is our Wallach because he's Hispanic or something.
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Dimitrius is our Wallach because he's Hispanic or something.
Well considering that Wallach is an old white jew, can't I be Wallach?
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We're going by The Good, the Bad and the Ugly in this here metaphor.
I was considering going with For a Few Dollars More, but the discussion would inevitably end up revolving around Adami's shotgun and whether it should be sawed off or not.
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I had it sawed off when I was a week old dude.
Or we can keep it pertaining to this thread, I can be Baltar, Dimitrus can be Adama and you can be Gaita (post execution).
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You talk too much, blondie.
I had it sawed off when I was a week old dude.
Or we can keep it pertaining to this thread, I can be Baltar, Dimitrus can be Adama and you can be Gaita (post execution).
:rollin
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In all TV situations, I am always the strong, imposing yet calm, leader. And my best friend is my rogue sidekick.
Hence, he is the Tigh to my Adama. The Draper to my Sterling. The McNulty to my Daniels.
I'm not Gaeta, is my point.
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In all TV situations, I am always the strong, imposing yet calm, leader. And my best friend is my rogue sidekick.
Hence, he is the Tigh to my Adama. The Draper to my Sterling. The McNulty to my Daniels.
I'm not Gaeta, is my point.
Gaeta showed up and complained non stop.
You're gaeta.
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:rollin
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:rollin :rollin
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Scar is awesome, you nutjob!
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Someones phone went off in my office with the really simple repeating theme from the BSG soundtrack whenever there is a cylon moment going on. He immediately went up in my estimation!
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https://www.cracked.com/article_19043_6-classic-series-you-didnt-know-were-made-up-fly.html
I feel like spamming this article on a number of topics, but this is the one I care about the most.
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Just finished Season 2. Here are some thoughts (SPOILERS)
Overall, very good and I was not at all expecting a Cylon occupation at the end. This is a welcomed change because honestly the stuff happening on Galactica was starting to wear a bit thin on me, especially the obvious filler episodes like Scar. I still think Season 1's finale was a lot better though. And, honestly, I don't like where they went with Gaius as president. Actually, come to think of it, I've barely liked anything Gaius related in the second half of this season. Him giving away a Nuclear weapon to a Cylon, for example. Anyway, still incredibly looking forward to season 3. Feel free to share thoughts, but no spoilers.
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Season 2 is the best season, but imo the cracks are beginning to show. Not only are there some intensely bad episodes ("The Woman King" uggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh... how did Angeli become a producer after that one?) but they start Lostifying it. However, there's some really good stuff. The "Pegasus" arc is the show's best. Cain is the best character. There's some great character stuff happening. I really liked the last two episodes. Very unexpected shift, but not of the lame "OMG PLOT TWIST" variety.
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Cracks?
So wait... is there really like some intense drop in quality?
Please say no... :(
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Cracks?
So wait... is there really like some intense drop in quality?
Please say no... :(
They aren't, GuineaPig just complains a lot.
Like Gaeta.
:neverusethis:
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Don't know the series, but got myself the whole DVD box set today. Looking forward to it! :hat
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Cracks?
So wait... is there really like some intense drop in quality?
Please say no... :(
The people on this board would say "No, it remains perfect to the end."
Everyone I've encountered in real life would universally agree that BSG runs off a cliff in your near viewing future.
EDIT: Hmm, my DTF told me I got ninja'd by three people, but I only got ninja'd by two.
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Ugh. Like, what are we talking about?
Snowglobe ending? If it's well done... well, maybe. Everyone is really Cylons? Uh, actually, that'd suck but don't answer that. Everyone dies? Not the best case scenario but I can see it ending up decent. Mind-fuck makes no sense ending? Not great, but still better most the other options.
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The people on this board would say "No, it remains perfect to the end."
Everyone I've encountered in real life would universally agree that BSG runs off a cliff in your near viewing future.
Reflecting on this dichotomy, I suppose it boils down to how much you like Lost. Because it ends up seeming like it's what the producers want to emulate by all means possible. Therefore, people on the internet like it because everyone knows the entire internet has fanboy boners for Lost. Meanwhile, in real life, people are unimpressed.
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Hm.
If it ties more into the subtle religious themes that have been in play the whole time, I'll be happy. Even if it involves some heavy supernatural elements coming into play.
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Well, hopefully you enjoy it. You still have at least one stretch of episodes that is unanimously considered among the show's best ahead of you.
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Cool. Can't wait.
And, did you watch Caprica? At least if I do wind up agreeing Battlestar's ending sucks I still have that to look forward to. From what I've heard it's good.
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Cracks?
So wait... is there really like some intense drop in quality?
Please say no... :(
My take:
After the first four episodes of season three, the writers started trying a lot of weird ideas that interwove into the plot and created many episodes that make you think "Wait, THIS is happening in Battlestar?" I don't mean they're all terrible (although I don't know who would enjoy The Woman King, even the title is bad), just strange and a departure from the core of the show.
The first half of season four is actually where things get really crazy. It almost becomes a straight drama on space ships. More solidly written, but you really have to be patient with it.
But if you get through all that, the second half of season four is mostly brilliant excepting Deadlock (terrible premise). And unlike a lot of people I still think the end is transcendentally good as a character piece, even if the plot has weird moments. What really seems to matter to most people's enjoyment of the finale is how they like the questions being answered. I was mostly satisfied.
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Well said Reap, I completely agree. When I first watched it through, the first half of season 4 got quite frustrating, but I'm so glad I stuck with it because it picked up a lot and the end was pretty glorious. Like you, I was satisfied that they answered enough without answering everything, and that the character arcs were resolved.
Perp, don't be put off by Guinea Pig, he hates everything. :P
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I hate bad things. Which unfortunately includes season four of Battlestar Galactica.
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I hate bad things. Which unfortunately includes season four of Battlestar Galactica.
I'd say I'm not trying to be offensive with this post, although that's a lie because I am: You seem like a very standard BSG hater. I've seen way too many people on TWOP who freak out whenever Angeli's name pops up in the writing credit. Your opinions are not special, and you aren't somehow above us because you've decided to hate what you consider bad things.
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I hate bad things. Which unfortunately includes season four of Battlestar Galactica.
I'd say I'm not trying to be offensive with this post, although that's a lie because I am: You seem like a very standard BSG hater. I've seen way too many people on TWOP who freak out whenever Angeli's name pops up in the writing credit. Your opinions are not special, and you aren't somehow above us because you've decided to hate what you consider bad things.
I don't know what a standard BSG hater is. I've never talked about in online except for here and occasionally 5/8. Me and my friends vent about it sometimes. I haven't read the TWOP write-ups except for a couple episodes, including "The Woman King". My hatred of Angeli more centers around the fact that he wrote some horrendous episodes, and while admittedly my insight into the creative process of BSG is limited, I don't think that the show becoming worse (in my opinion) and his heightened involvement is simply coincidence. Somewhat of a useful scapegoat, though I think Ron Moore shares most of the blame.
I don't know. I pay a lot of attention to writers. I could probably rank the writers in The Wire in order of how I like 'em. There are a couple of BSG writers who have done some great work. Ditto for Mad Men. I like to pick up on directorial/writing quirks of shows I watch.
I was being facetious with my last comment. Probably should've thrown in a smiley. Of course everything's subjective when it comes to something like this. And to be honest, it's always been a bit weird in this thread that I am so in the minority in terms of my views. All the people (10+) I know consider season four to be the worst by far, and some hate it even more than me.
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The season 3 opener was glorious.
I will hate this show if they make me like Baltar again, too. But I can already feel it's going to happen.
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You guys heard of the new Ron Moore pilot he's making of NBC? With James Callis, Jaime Bamber and Tricia Helfer... I are intrigued.
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You guys heard of the new Ron Moore pilot he's making of NBC? With James Callis, Jaime Bamber and Tricia Helfer... I are intrigued.
It's Ron Moore, so I'm in. I really hope the network treats him right.
In addition to those three, IMDB says Rymer's directing the pilot, although I'm not buying into it yet. Aside from Jamie Bamber's accent (along with NPH, it's one of two things that make me feel noticably less straight), I kinda want to see these guys again. I'd maybe even be down for more Callis/Helfer scenes, although at that point it would probably start to feel too derivative.
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Ron Moore must have made a miraculous come back with people on BSG. I remember him during his early years with Star Trek: TNG and his writing was abysmal. So below par, but I guess some people can have a few stinkers on their resume and still be a genius. just look at JMS. He's more than capible of writing horrendous junk, yet his 3 years of sheer brilliance with Babylon 5 season 2, 3 and 4 will never go unnoticed.
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You guys heard of the new Ron Moore pilot he's making of NBC? With James Callis, Jaime Bamber and Tricia Helfer... I are intrigued.
It's Ron Moore, so I'm in. I really hope the network treats him right.
In addition to those three, IMDB says Rymer's directing the pilot, although I'm not buying into it yet. Aside from Jamie Bamber's accent (along with NPH, it's one of two things that make me feel noticably less straight), I kinda want to see these guys again. I'd maybe even be down for more Callis/Helfer scenes, although at that point it would probably start to feel too derivative.
Bamber's accent was pretty good by the end of the show, but yeah it was terrible at the start. :lol
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Bamber was a pretty mediocre actor at the start of BSG, but became much better as it went on to the point of being able to deliver some pretty good monologues like that one in court and generally act well!
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Bamber's accent was pretty good by the end of the show, but yeah it was terrible at the start. :lol
I meant his British accent.
Ron Moore must have made a miraculous come back with people on BSG. I remember him during his early years with Star Trek: TNG and his writing was abysmal. So below par, but I guess some people can have a few stinkers on their resume and still be a genius. just look at JMS. He's more than capible of writing horrendous junk, yet his 3 years of sheer brilliance with Babylon 5 season 2, 3 and 4 will never go unnoticed.
Have you seen the show dude?
Also, RDM never had to "come back." After he left Voyager he worked on a bunch of shows as a producer.
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I thought his run on TNG wasn't considered the bad one, I thought it was the Voyager run.
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My god, the first 4 episodes of season 3 are probaby the best run in the series so far.
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My god, the first 4 episodes of season 3 are probaby the best run in the series so far.
Season 3 is amazing IMO. The shit hits the fan, but in an incredible way. I still love season 4, but it takes a bit of time to get going, whereas 3 is great from the off.
Bamber's accent was pretty good by the end of the show, but yeah it was terrible at the start. :lol
I meant his British accent.
Damn you! :getoffmylawn:
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I thought his run on TNG wasn't considered the bad one, I thought it was the Voyager run.
I think Vivace's point was that RDM was a bad writer on Star Trek, then somehow managed to find the status and writing ability to run BSG and apparently write good scripts.
This squares with nothing I've seen or heard though. He was handpicked to be on TNG at a time when the show wasn't really hiring, became an executive producer on DS9, worked on a bunch of other shows, and ran Carnivale for a season before season 1 of BSG. I don't get how he's a bad writer who magically became successful.
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6 episodes into season 3 and honestly? The show still is not showing a single crack.
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6 episodes into season 3 and honestly? The show still is not showing a single crack.
Season 3 is the best season of the show.
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Yeah.
And, I mean, looking back so far, I'd say the season 2.5 was the worst. The season just feels like it ends when the Pegasus drama ends, and when they cut back to stand-alone episodes it feels really weird.
So far, though, everything's been really consistent. Sure there's been somewhat of a slowdown from the first four but I'm finding things to be more and more intriguing. How is season 4?
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How is season 4?
I only had one gripe with season 4, that I can't tell you because it would be a major spoiler.
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How is season 4?
Things start to go pretty crazy, so it starts a little frustratingly, but once it gets going it is epic. Just keep watching!
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6 episodes into season 3 and honestly? The show still is not showing a single crack.
Well, that's because you haven't seen 7 and 8 yet.
Yeah.
And, I mean, looking back so far, I'd say the season 2.5 was the worst. The season just feels like it ends when the Pegasus drama ends, and when they cut back to stand-alone episodes it feels really weird.
What? Black Market and Sacrifice weren't good, but season 2.5 has Epiphanies (solid), Scar (top 10 episode), The Captain's Hand (really underrated), Downloaded (great episode because of head Baltar), and the finale (possibly the best season finale of the show).
So far, though, everything's been really consistent. Sure there's been somewhat of a slowdown from the first four but I'm finding things to be more and more intriguing. How is season 4?
Just wait. The payoffs to the questions will drive you insane and create more questions that make you wonder if anything makes sense. Then season four will refuse to answer any of those questions and open up more questions, and keep not solving them, and keep not solving them. Finally season 4.5 will start solving them and moving the plot along and it gets really good. But the first half of season 4 is so maddening.
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How is season 4?
...
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What? Black Market and Sacrifice weren't good, but season 2.5 has Epiphanies (solid), Scar (top 10 episode), The Captain's Hand (really underrated), Downloaded (great episode because of head Baltar), and the finale (possibly the best season finale of the show).
Well, if Scar is a top 10 episode for you then we are not a match. Honestly, Scar is my least favorite episode so far. Besides being somewhat important as it shows how Kat becomes a decent fighter, it's just out of nowhere and feels like it was something they had left over from season 1.
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6 episodes into season 3 and honestly? The show still is not showing a single crack.
Well, that's because you haven't seen 7 and 8 yet.
Okay, I've just watched those two episodes. Here's how I look at it:
I (still) have absolutely no idea why there's so much controversy about this show. Those episodes were absolutely fantastic. Sure, they had a stand-alone quality to them. But they were extremely important and really served to develop the characters quite a bit. I don't see how you can praise an episode like Scar so highly and then shit all over Hero.
Hero, for me, has been on of the most enjoyable so far. Very good, and better than 50 percent of Season 2 I'd say. If Hero is one of the worst-rated shows of the series, then honestly that's just a testament to how great this series is. But, personally, (and I'm not directing this to you guys, though it's gonna seem that way) I'm starting to think frustrations with this show are based on two pretty common problems I notice with fans of anything: 1.) fans remember the last season as much better than it actually was and 2.) fans just being pretty spoiled as far as expectations go.
Also, this show seems to go through "Train of Thought" syndrome. That is, as people were following it week by week, every time a bottle episode like Hero or something would air it'd just be massively disappointing because people where hoping for something more substantial and because people were also worried in the back of their minds that the next episode would be similar. Meanwhile, people who've got into Dream Theater later have no problem digesting Train of Thought-- they know it wasn't representative of any kind of permanent change in the band's sound. There's no knee-jerk "the sky has fallen!" reaction to Train of Thought from newer fans. The same can be said about Falling into Infinity.
Same goes with me and Battlestar. I'm able to enjoy episodes like Hero because I can just instantly watch the one immediately after it. I haven't had to wait a week for this, nor do I have to wait another week to see the next one after it if the one I've watch hasn't lived up to expectations.
Anyway, can't wait to keep watching. Will keep you guys posted, but for now I really don't think I'll be ending up among the complainers.
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I dislike "Hero" because of the problematic retconning, leaps in logic, and general worthlessness.
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I dislike "Hero" because of the problematic retconning, leaps in logic, and general worthlessness.
What retconning? Of course, don't answer that if you mean they retcon this particular episode later.
Anyway, I really don't see how it's worthless. Like I said, there's plenty of character development. And that one extremely important relationship is more-or-less resolved for the time being. As far as leaps of logic go? It's not like they've been even remotely difficult to find elsewhere in the series. This show is really full of moments that make me think "wait why are they doing this?" but pay off later. Actually, maybe it's because I'm used to it now or something, but I found myself thinking things like "now that's just plain unbelievable!" way more often in Season 1 and the first half of Season 2 than I have in the last 20 episodes or so.
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I dislike "Hero" because of the problematic retconning, leaps in logic, and general worthlessness.
What retconning? Of course, don't answer that if you mean they retcon this particular episode later.
I think he means that they basically tell you on this episode that the Cylon War started because of Adama sending Bulldog across the line.
Though I always thought of it as Adama misplacing blame on himself rather than a retcon.
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That's not really true, though. The episode doesn't say that at all.
I think it was very clear that your explanation is the correct one.
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Though I always thought of it as Adama misplacing blame on himself rather than a retcon.
The idea of him feeling that way at all though kinda sucks.
I (still) have absolutely no idea why there's so much controversy about this show. Those episodes were absolutely fantastic. Sure, they had a stand-alone quality to them. But they were extremely important and really served to develop the characters quite a bit. I don't see how you can praise an episode like Scar so highly and then shit all over Hero.
Scar is better in every way. The idea behind Hero is so contrived and melodramatic. Scar is about who Starbuck is in a fundamental way.
Hero, for me, has been on of the most enjoyable so far. Very good, and better than 50 percent of Season 2 I'd say.
o_O.
It might be better than Sacrifice, the worst episode of the season (Black Market has some good moments). And even that's a stretch.
If Hero is one of the worst-rated shows of the series, then honestly that's just a testament to how great this series is. But, personally, (and I'm not directing this to you guys, though it's gonna seem that way) I'm starting to think frustrations with this show are based on two pretty common problems I notice with fans of anything: 1.) fans remember the last season as much better than it actually was and 2.) fans just being pretty spoiled as far as expectations go.
What do you mean by the last season? Season 4 or season 2?
Otherwise, I can't address much of anything in your post. I'm not quite sure where you're coming from.
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I'm pretty sure he means Season 2 since he hasn't even started Season 4 yet.
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I dislike "Hero" because of the problematic retconning, leaps in logic, and general worthlessness.
What retconning? Of course, don't answer that if you mean they retcon this particular episode later.
Anyway, I really don't see how it's worthless. Like I said, there's plenty of character development. And that one extremely important relationship is more-or-less resolved for the time being. As far as leaps of logic go? It's not like they've been even remotely difficult to find elsewhere in the series. This show is really full of moments that make me think "wait why are they doing this?" but pay off later. Actually, maybe it's because I'm used to it now or something, but I found myself thinking things like "now that's just plain unbelievable!" way more often in Season 1 and the first half of Season 2 than I have in the last 20 episodes or so.
The retconning I mentioned had to do with Adama being in command of the Valkyrie. It was lazy writing to invent a personal problem through a retcon, especially if it had no significance past that episode.
The leaps of logic are pretty vast in this episode. The Cylons decide the best way to kill Adama is to find a man from his past, assume he had built-up resentment, locate the fleet, let him go, make it seem like he was escaping, all in the hope he'd kill Adama for them? First of all, it's stupid, second of all, it goes against the characterization of the Cylons. It's a problem that's present through much of the series due to some shoddy writing, especially in the fourth season (full-blown Lostitis manifesting itself), but here it's pretty egregious.
The only redeeming factor for this episode is some pretty great stuff with Tigh from what I can recall. It's enough to elevate the episode to merely sub-average.
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The leaps of logic are pretty vast in this episode. The Cylons decide the best way to kill Adama is to find a man from his past, assume he had built-up resentment, locate the fleet, let him go, make it seem like he was escaping, all in the hope he'd kill Adama for them? First of all, it's stupid, second of all, it goes against the characterization of the Cylons.
I don't think it goes against the characterization of the Cylons-- but it does show them as a bit more desperate, trying various things that they wouldn't have needed to before. It was just something they tried for the sake of trying, not this grand scheme they had a lot invested in. I don't really see how it's that unbelievable. Nations do that to eachother all the time in war.
The idea of him feeling that way at all though kinda sucks.
Why? (Both) Adama(s) becoming (a) softy(ies) has, from what I can tell, has pretty much been a motif of this season.
Scar is better in every way. The idea behind Hero is so contrived and melodramatic. Scar is about who Starbuck is in a fundamental way.
Hero is about the relationship between Adama and Tigh in a very fundimental way. In fact, this one episode seems to show that dynamic better than any other so far.
It might be better than Sacrifice, the worst episode of the season (Black Market has some good moments). And even that's a stretch.
Black Market is another episode that wasn't bad at all. What is people's problem with it?
Otherwise, I can't address much of anything in your post. I'm not quite sure where you're coming from.
I'm asking if you hated these episodes because they're actually bad? Or because, as you originally watched it week to week, sometimes you'd get something like Black Market wound up yearning for another episode that really drove the plot forward?
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The leaps of logic are pretty vast in this episode. The Cylons decide the best way to kill Adama is to find a man from his past, assume he had built-up resentment, locate the fleet, let him go, make it seem like he was escaping, all in the hope he'd kill Adama for them? First of all, it's stupid, second of all, it goes against the characterization of the Cylons.
I don't think it goes against the characterization of the Cylons-- but it does show them as a bit more desperate, trying various things that they wouldn't have needed to before. It was just something they tried for the sake of trying, not this grand scheme they had a lot invested in. I don't really see how it's that unbelievable. Nations do that to eachother all the time in war.
Most of the time, they're trying to find the fleet. They discover the fleet's location, and instead of sending in everything in an attempt to knock them out (or simply pick off a couple civvies) they let a prisoner escape in an incredibly muddled plan to have him kill Adama? Typically, the Cylons use the most reductive (and effective) method; got a guy on board? Have him walk into CIC with a bomb. Need to destroy humanity? Paralyze the defense systems; deliver singular, crushing blow.
Imagine your hypothetical "real life" parallel: a Wolf pack has spent days, by itself and through co-ordination with intelligence and aircraft, to pinpoint the location of an Allied convoy in the North Atlantic. With the advantage of surprise, they do not try to pick off the destroyers, or the minor escorts, or the most valuable civilian supply ships, or the lesser important ones. Instead, they try and get a captured Allied seaman on board the lead ship to kill the Group Commander. Sound plausible? A lot of shows fall into this trap of shoddy writing: they don't properly assess the motivations of characters and try to craft a realistic plot, and instead craft needlessly complex schemes that focus on "twists" to deliver the drama (see Lost for many examples, most Bond movies, etc.). It's bad writing.
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It's bad writing.
It's not "bad," it's just not great. I think you're lying to yourself, though, if you actually think that the series' portrayal of various characters motivations has necessarily been more logical than this. And anyway, like I said, as a stand-alone episode I thought it was pretty enjoyable, probably the most enjoyable stand-alone so far.
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It's bad writing.
It's not "bad," it's just not great. I think you're lying to yourself, though, if you actually think that the series' portrayal of various characters motivations has necessarily been more logical than this. And anyway, like I said, as a stand-alone episode I thought it was pretty enjoyable, probably the most enjoyable stand-alone so far.
It is bad writing, imo; I calls them as I sees them. I'm not going to dispute what I've bolded; there were some major missteps previously. It's bound to happen when you have a network show with a wide range of writers. In general I have a big problem with the way a lot of characters who were previously favourites of mine were handled in the latter seasons. Consistent characterization is pretty important for me. That's why the Tigh/Adama stuff in this episode is legitimately excellent and raises the overall quality a lot. I'd actually take "Hero" over 3/4 of Season 4.
My problem with the episode is that it is the definition of filler. It is simply there to pad out the episode length, and what with the problems the retconning brings I think it does slightly more harm than good. It could've been cut out (albeit with Tigh's mini-arc moved to a different episode) and you wouldn't notice at all. Which does sort of matter because there's a whole lot of contriving coming up that could've used another episode to build into.
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It's not filler. The stuff between Rosiland/Adama and Tigh/Adama is important. And even though it doesn't more the plot forward, it's a cool little stand-alone episode that might inspire a new viewer who's late to the party to check more of the series. I think that counts for something.
And, for what it's worth, I think the first half of the miniseries is by far the worst part of the show. Everything since then has been at least interesting compared to it.
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I guess it's tomato/tomatoe. These episodes pop up more and more frequently; SciFi put the screws to Moore in order to be more episodic to bring in more viewers, so it's not like it was purely a creative shift.
As for ranking the worst episodes of the show up until the point you're at, I would go:
Litmus
Black Market
Six Degrees of Separation
Sacrifice
Hero
A Measure of Salvation
Final Cut
Something along those lines. The only ones I would rank as truly bad are the top two, all of the rest had parts or some that salvaged it somewhat.
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Yeah, I didn't really like Litmus much. I think it was the first time I felt, while watching the show, that something had gone wrong.
Also, anything involving the number 6 that comes to the fleet annoys me. That, actually, is the one plot arc that I just wish never happened. Her coming aboard, caring about her movement more than Gaius, actually getting an atomic bomb from him, and then blowing up that ship with it is all just extremely unlikely, and I'm forced to question the motives of the writers around every corner. The fact that it was used as an excuse for the Cylons to come to New Caprica was a minor annoyance for me.
But that's just life, I guess. I still can't think of a Sci-Fi show that's more consistent and that doesn't have these problems.
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And, Ring Dance was a little bit weird and I felt like a lot of people were portrayed strangely in it. But it was cool where they went with it.
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I assume you're talking about "Unfinished Business", which is one of the show's best episodes imo.
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Yeah, I wasn't paying attention to the titles. But yes, it's Unfinished Business. Probably the best stand-alone so far I'd say.
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Yeah that episode is great, but I also really liked Hero. In fact, I can't really think of any episodes that I especially disliked - with a show like BSG, for me it's all about the whole rather than being pinickity about individual episodes.
And GP, it's not "bad writing", it's writing that you happen not to like.
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Same here, Ariich. It's hard for me to pick out things I don't like, because with every episode I'm increasingly captivated. Anyway, "The Passage" is next.
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Yeah, just a different approach to watching TV shows I guess.
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"The Passage" was OK. Definitely my least favorite episode of the season so far, but still not what I'd consider bad.
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GuineaPig's official guide to introducing a friend to BSG:
Watch miniseries.
Watch season 1. Skip "Litmus" and "Six Degrees of Separation."
Watch season 2. Skip "Final Cut", "Black Market" and "Sacrifice."
Watch first five episodes of season 3. Skip "Torn", "A Measure of Salvation", and "Hero." Watch "Unfinished Business", and explain to your friend that it's titled ironically because it is actually the series finale.
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Really wanted to enjoy BSG but the whole religous thing got too much for me. The show started off great when that stuff was treated carefully, then they went the whole hog and had all these miracles and stuff happening... bleh...
Miniseries and first couple of seasons were brilliant, when it was more focused on being a military drama. Apollo as Galactica CAG FTW!
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Today, watched quite a bit.
The Eye of Jupiter
Rapture
Taking a Break From All Your Worries
The Woman King
A Day in the Life
Dirty Hands
The first couple were, in my opinion, very good episodes that are just as strong as many of the season's best. The last three were, of course, stand-alone types. The Woman King was not horrible, and if that's the worst the show has to offer I'm lucky. A Day in the Life was also OK. And Dirty Hands was good, aside from one extremely retarded section SPOILERS when Adama actually threatened to have Cally shot /SPOILERS I just thought that was sooo out of character for Adama, especially given what we had just seen those two characters go through in the last episode. Ew. Just bad planning I think. Aside from that 15 second scene where Adama is way out of character, the episode is fine. Actually, I liked how they showed Galactica's working class. We only ever see the elites. Just today, I was watching a program about astronauts doing repairs on the Hubble telescope and I found myself wondering while I was watching it why you never see anyone doing any hard labor on the Galactica.
Anyway, nearing the season 3 finale now. Can't wait.
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"Dirty Hands" could've been great. As it is, it was only above average. The writers I felt had a hard time integrating other stories about the fleet into the main cast of characters.
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...aside from one extremely retarded section SPOILERS when Adama actually threatened to have Cally shot /SPOILERS I just thought that was sooo out of character for Adama, especially given what we had just seen those two characters go through in the last episode. Ew. Just bad planning I think.
Keep watching the show and say that again as it draws to a close.
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Yeah. There have been parts where I was iffy on episodes, but Adama's "threat" was the first time I actually felt myself angry at the writers ;D
I am so pumped for Baltar's trial.
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...aside from one extremely retarded section SPOILERS when Adama actually threatened to have Cally shot /SPOILERS I just thought that was sooo out of character for Adama, especially given what we had just seen those two characters go through in the last episode. Ew. Just bad planning I think.
Keep watching the show and say that again as it draws to a close.
Can you expand on what you mean here? 'Cause I literally don't know what to make of this comment.
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...aside from one extremely retarded section SPOILERS when Adama actually threatened to have Cally shot /SPOILERS I just thought that was sooo out of character for Adama, especially given what we had just seen those two characters go through in the last episode. Ew. Just bad planning I think.
Keep watching the show and say that again as it draws to a close.
Can you expand on what you mean here? 'Cause I literally don't know what to make of this comment.
SPOILERS. DON'T LOOK PERPETUAL CHANGE, DON'T DO IT!!!
When the mutiny happened, I think part of Adama was willing to execute everyone involved. I don't remember anything in the show enraging him more deeply.
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No spoilers here
Yeah, I thought all that was terribly out of character. The series showed repeatedly through the first 3 seasons that Adama valued the lives of his crew really highly, often going to dumb lengths to save individuals. It was part of what made Cain such an effective foil for him (I for one think that Cain would've been completely correct to execute Tyrol and Helo); that his empathy could occasionally be a flaw as an authority figure because his emotions would overwhelm his ability to make rational or necessary decisions.
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Thanks for the warnings guys. I didn't look. Do let me know when it's safe to do so, though.
Anyway, just finished Maelstorm. Wow, just wow. Probably the most emotional episode of the entire show so far. Adama's character, at the end, was played perfectly. Man. I think there's a tear in my eye. :(
Found this fascinating:
The end scene where Adama smashes up his model sailing ship was improvised by Edward James Olmos and was not part of the original script. Olmos was unaware that the model was not a prop. According to Ron Moore, it was a very expensive museum-quality model that was being rented for the production. It was insured, according to Moore.
That, in my opinion, is great acting.
The episode after it, where we're introduced to Lampkin, was also very good.
Though, oddly, I'm enjoying the stand-alone episodes moreso than the ones where the story really moves along. I guess that's just me not wanting things to end.
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Mark Sheppard as Romo Lampkin was my favorite guess star.
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Have to say, I've never really bothered to make the distinction between standalone episodes and those which specifically further the story. Standalone ones still enhance the context, the background and the characters, so I don't see why they'd ever be written off.
I also don't really get the complaint about Adama being "out of character". Firstly, his character changes over the course of the 4 seasons, and secondly, people act out of character all the time in real life, and under considerably less emotionally straining circumstances than those undergone by the Galactica crew.
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Have to say, I've never really bothered to make the distinction between standalone episodes and those which specifically further the story. Standalone ones still enhance the context, the background and the characters, so I don't see why they'd ever be written off.
I also don't really get the complaint about Adama being "out of character". Firstly, his character changes over the course of the 4 seasons, and secondly, people act out of character all the time in real life, and under considerably less emotionally straining circumstances than those undergone by the Galactica crew.
I think he went just a bit too far. Especially considering, in the first season, he doesn't even want to police people. Now he wants executions. Also, it really didn't work well with the theme of him "going soft," which has been at work for the entire seasons really.
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Have to say, I've never really bothered to make the distinction between standalone episodes and those which specifically further the story. Standalone ones still enhance the context, the background and the characters, so I don't see why they'd ever be written off.
I also don't really get the complaint about Adama being "out of character". Firstly, his character changes over the course of the 4 seasons, and secondly, people act out of character all the time in real life, and under considerably less emotionally straining circumstances than those undergone by the Galactica crew.
I think the issue with the standalone episodes is that usually the Battlestar formula rests on a mix of action, plot, and character. The writing can is uneven throughout, and when the emphasis is put on the latter element this can easily result in a bad (or merely forgettable) episode if the writing isn't up to snuff. I don't think the issues with "Black Market" or "The Woman King" is that they're stand-alone episodes; I think the issue is that they have bad writing, often with characters retconned or acting out of character. What? Lee's banging a stripper over the loss of some other girlfriend in the past that's never mentioned again? What? All of a sudden there's a genocidal doctor going around that everyone's old pals with and will defend regardless of his practices?
I like Mad Men a lot. That's an example of a show that rests entirely upon the strength of its writing because not much happens. Bad episodes = bad writing. In Battlestar poor (or just average) writing can be offset by the action and overarching plot (although I'd argue that season 4 is unable to do this). Stand-alone episodes often don't benefit from this effect, and can suffer as a result. You can look at "Unfinished Business" as an example of the opposite.
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Just finished Season 3. Frak me.
My mind is blown and I by no means will be able pull my thoughts together coherently but nonetheless I will try. So, if I'm not the only one experiencing this in real time SPOILERS AHEAD.
Let's start with the good:
Lee and the Colonel? Handled perfectly. Baltar's trial? Excellent. In fact, Lee pretty much sums up the entire show. They could have ended the show there-- if they wanted to. But anyway, I was very impressed with the 70 minutes of the last two episodes before all the shit goes down.
Now, the other.
Note, I'm not saying the BAD, just the OTHER. Because I don't know if what I just saw was good or bad. In fact, I don't know what I just saw. Let's just say "bizarre." Or, even better, MINDFUCK. I mean, I kinda saw some shit like this coming but, eh, there are no words.
I guess more will come later. I do have a slight feeling like, "wow, do I really want to sign up for where this is about to go?"
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How did you feel about Tigh?
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Well, out of all the surprises, his was the most epic. I'm so curious to see how he'll handle it.
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End of series 3 is one of the greatest things ever. So epic.
I think he went just a bit too far. Especially considering, in the first season, he doesn't even want to police people. Now he wants executions.
I take your point, but a LOT has changed since then.
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The season three finale makes me angry. There are some great moments, some good moments that could've been saved (I've ranted at length about how Lee's speech could've been a closing argument, instead of testimony which no judge would ever, ever allow; also Tigh's testimony being played for laughs), and some awful. I can't forgive the writers for doing character assassinations on Tigh, the Chief, and Starbuck. This is where BSG jumped the shark, imo.
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I'm glad I've stopped taking your BSG-related posts seriously, or I'd be raging right now. :lol
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I'm glad I've stopped taking your BSG-related posts seriously, or I'd be raging right now. :lol
Well, you also idealize this show so much, that it's hard to take some of your posts seriously. For example (just on this page) not finding Adama all of a sudden threatening to execute crew members as strange or out of character.
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I never said it wasn't out of character, I just disagreed that there's anything particularly wrong with someone acting unexpectedly.
But yeah, I like this show a LOT (it's probably my favourite show ever), which is why I like to talk about it.
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I like this show a lot too.
The reason the majority of my posts in this thread tend to be negative is because everybody else is overwhelmingly positive :lol
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I don't think those are "assassinations." I mean, it's pretty obvious that the 5 have some special purposes, and aren't like the others we've seen before and are probably even something the others will be equally afraid of. For some characters, like Roslin's aid (Uh... Tori?) it seemed weird. But for Tigh and the Chief I'm really excited. Also, I'm totally curious as to where Baltar's going from here. He is, by far, one of the strongest Sci-Fi characters ever.
So, do you guys want to take bets? Which side am I going to fall on in terms of enjoying Season 4? I've loved the show up until now, but I am really really curious as to where they're going with it and I'm not entirely sure I like this new place they're going either.
Also, my DVDs come with a movie called "Razor." What is it and when should I watch it?
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It's a Battlestar "movie". Watch it now; this was when it was made. It's quite enjoyable.
As for which side you fall on, I think you might like it, as much as I want somebody else to be on my side in these endless season 4 debates ;D
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Cool. Obviously, I hope I will, but I won't be surprised if I don't either. I officially had one serious frustration with Season 3. So I could see having two or three with Season 4. I'm not sure though. I have to watch.
I can't imagine filler episodes, though, at this point. Is episode for like all story, or does it have its share of fillers too?
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There's less of what could be called "stand-alone episodes" as there are relatively few threads that are contained to individual episodes, but the plot moves along sluggishly at some points, especially in the back halves of each half-season (they aired in two groups of 10).
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Yeah, I have no idea why I just called the stand-alone episodes "fillers." :facepalm:
OK, about season 3-- one thing I don't get: Batlar never defends himself. He never even mentions that the Cylons put a gun to his head, and forced him to sign the document. Or did I miss that?
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He never defends himself because something happens that would never happen.
IIRC, Lampkin moves for a mistrial, Baltar refuses, so Lee testifies in support of Baltar bizarrely. I don't think they ever get around to presenting an actual defence for Baltar.
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But Lee's whole speech is based on the assumption that Baltar "didn't have a choice." It's like everyone knew. But they just stopped short of saying so for some reason. Not sure why.
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Well, I think it's pretty much self-evident that the humans could not actually fight off the Cylons, and weren't ultimately in a position to resist them. People just wanted a scapegoat, and Baltar was an easy target. The show can sometimes be hit or miss (often missing because it's too on the nose) with it's political issues, but they did a great job at handling this plot line. A very nicely nuanced approach.
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Yeah. Same here.
Actually, it's a shame that more time wasn't spent showing what happened on New Caprica and when Pegasus and Galactica jumped away. I really feel like they could have stretched that out, as it was a pretty awesome arc, and ended Season 3 with the rescue and Gaius' trial. That whole arc was fabulous, come to think of it, and it's sort of a shame that it wound up being 5 of the most action-packed episodes with the trial so much later.
I'm not complaining about how it actually went, since I DID like it and all. I just see a lot of potential there I guess.
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I don't know if I'm remembering correctly, but doesn't Baltar say something about the Cylons making him sign the death list when Gaeta is testifying?
I know he says something besides the "Oh, Felix, Felix, what are you doing?"
And there are some webisodes about the time spent on New Caprica before the start of season 3. They're called The Resistance.
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That's one thing I didn't like: Felix lies. He generally seems to be a straight-shooter, but not this time.
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That's one thing I didn't like: Felix lies. He generally seems to be a straight-shooter, but not this time.
He wanted to see the guy he hated, whom he felt completely responsible for all the things that happened in New Caprica burned at the stake... of course he's gonna lie!!
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Across the four series, Felix probably undergoes a more dramatic change than any other character.
Joe, if you don't like season 4 then we are not a match.
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I will make sure I try as hard as I can to like it. I don't want disappoint you, ariich. :heart
But then again if I fall, at least I'll be falling right into the warm, welcoming lap of GuineaPig. :biggrin:
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Also, I want to note: Casey and I have been streaming is simultaneously. We both enjoyed it, but she was way more pumped after the ending of season 3 than I was.
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Across the four series, Felix probably undergoes a more dramatic change than any other character.
Joe, if you don't like season 4 then we are not a match.
More than Baltar???
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Yeah, I don't see how you can quantify that at all. I mean, he's a very minor character. He shifts from being a somewhat content naive idealist to being justifiably bitter naive idealist. Many other characters, and more important ones than that, had far bigger changes in character imo.
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So I've been backing up the DVDs to my hard-drive all day, and have noticed some bizarre shit as I play them quickly to make sure I didn't exactly rip the commentary tracks. Man, things are going to get weird, aren't they?
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Just finished Razor. Thought it was really, really well done. At first I was skeptical, because I didn't think they'd be able to pull things off with what was, evidently, them working with half of the cast (if even that) but they did.
As a movie, it wasn't fantastic, but as 2.5 episodes of the show that never were crammed together I thought it was really well done. I still want to learn more about the Pegasus, though. And I want to learn more about what Galactica and Pegasus did during the occupation, too. :P
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The thing that lets Razor down is some bad character and plot choices in the last third. And some poorly acted scenes scattered throughout. On the whole, it's pretty good. Mostly due to the presence of Cain.
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You know, after watching the commentary, it seems like all the actors and the directors weren't leading on, at all, that season 4 was to be the last one. Why is that. Did they know? Or did the series end abruptly for other reasons?
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You know, after watching the commentary, it seems like all the actors and the directors weren't leading on, at all, that season 4 was to be the last one. Why is that. Did they know? Or did the series end abruptly for other reasons?
As far as I know, they all knew the fourth season was the last one. If you watch the video blogs by David Eick when they show the cast members talking about the season they all knew it was the last one.
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If I recall correctly, there was more than a year gap between seasons three and four. It's very possible that the decision for it to be the last season was not made until production began or something.
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So finished the first three episodes of season 4 today. Not the best stuff, but my curiosity is so peaked that I think I'll get through this season faster than all the others.
I'm gonna say now, with some hesitation, that I do indeed like where the show is going. Though, given the quality of the standalone episodes, they could have taken another 5 seasons just to get to this point for all I care.
I do like Lee's new role, too. My biggest complaint about season 3 was how dumbed down Galactica politics seemed to become. It was like everything they set up in the first two seasons ended in favour of an Adama/Roselin benevolent dictatorship.
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My biggest complaint about season 3 was how dumbed down Galactica politics seemed to become. It was like everything they set up in the first two seasons ended in favour of an Adama/Roselin benevolent dictatorship.
Sit tight a bit. This was done on purpose and will pay off.
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I don't think it does.
I agree with PC. I feel that too often throughout, and especially in the fourth season, that the show gets intellectually lazy and just concludes that whatever Roslin/Adama think is right and everyone should follow them, rather than presenting legitimate and justifiable alternate viewpoints.
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My biggest complaint about season 3 was how dumbed down Galactica politics seemed to become. It was like everything they set up in the first two seasons ended in favour of an Adama/Roselin benevolent dictatorship.
Sit tight a bit. This was done on purpose and will pay off.
Agreed.
concludes that whatever Roslin/Adama think is right and everyone should follow them, rather than presenting legitimate and justifiable alternate viewpoints.
wtf
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I don't think it does.
This isn't even logically arguable. Just don't bother trying.
I agree with PC. I feel that too often throughout, and especially in the fourth season, that the show gets intellectually lazy and just concludes that whatever Roslin/Adama think is right and everyone should follow them, rather than presenting legitimate and justifiable alternate viewpoints.
This I can sorta see.
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I don't think it does.
This isn't even logically arguable. Just don't bother trying.
It took me a second to try and figure out what you meant. I didn't mean it in the way you thought I meant it. I should've rather said I don't enjoy the payoff; but unless I'm forgetting most of the season 2/3 commentaries I don't think it was set up that way on purpose.
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I don't think it does.
This isn't even logically arguable. Just don't bother trying.
It took me a second to try and figure out what you meant. I didn't mean it in the way you thought I meant it. I should've rather said I don't enjoy the payoff; but unless I'm forgetting most of the season 2/3 commentaries I don't think it was set up that way on purpose.
Well, if you don't enjoy you don't enjoy it. I disagree but that's fine.
I think it was done on purpose though. Maybe not at first, but by Dirty Hands they realized what was happening and rolled with it. Baltar specifically comments on the Roslin/Adama autocracy in the book he wrote.
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And, you know, I could see why the people might support the autocracy. Most of the civilians likely view the system as having failed with Baltar and the occupation. The problem is the show never explores that. In fact, for the longest time, we only the the Galactica's rulers in action. That's starting to change now, which is awesome.
The Final Five kind of bother me. Part of me is curious to see what becomes of them. The other part, honestly, makes me feel like the writers just felt like leaving everyone on a cliff-hanging by naming 4 characters as Cylons and now they're still not quite sure what they're going to do with them.
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The other part, honestly, makes me feel like the writers just felt like leaving everyone on a cliff-hanging by naming 4 characters as Cylons and now they're still not quite sure what they're going to do with them.
Because that's not an inaccurate assessment of what happened.
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More or less.
The Cylons may have had a plan, but the writers didn't.
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:icy:
But it's true.
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Five episodes in, and I kinda want to keep watching.
I've decided I like where Chief being a Cylon has gone. Not sure about the others yet.
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More or less.
The Cylons may have had a plan, but the writers didn't.
You sound bitter.
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So I've managed to get my brother watching BSG now. :D
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Well gods dammit. Blood on the Scale was easily one of the best episodes yet. It rivaled 33 and the first couple episodes of Season 3.
I was skeptical as to where they were going with the new character roles during Season 4, but no longer. Everything, so far, has paid off gloriously. Man, so much to say about the last couple episodes... For one, I absolutely love where they've gone with Saul. Also, I was really feeling Adama's pain for a couple of those episodes. Ah. Man. Frak. This show is soooo good. They spent so much time building up these characters, so they're able to afford taking them extraordinary places. Oh, and let's talk about Adama's pilot name, "Husker!" I was rolling when I heard that. I had complained earlier about the political aspects being toned down... well, that last episode made up for it. Actually, all the episodes since Lee became a politician have been awesome.
I love this show. I'm said that it'll soon be coming to an end.
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I love this show. I'm said that it'll soon be coming to an end.
Oh man I know what you mean.
But you can just watch it again. :D
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Yeah. So glad I actually bought it. I can have some kind of marathon in the future.
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Yeah. So glad I actually bought it. I can have some kind of marathon in the future.
Yeah, on second viewing, I understood some characters better.
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Yeah. So glad I actually bought it. I can have some kind of marathon in the future.
Yeah, on second viewing, I understood some characters better.
Yeah same here.
What I found most amazing was how intense some of the episodes were, even on second viewing when I knew what was going to happen. Particularly in season 4.
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How's the commentary. Worthwhile?
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How's the commentary. Worthwhile?
Haven't watched any episodes with the commentary, but I will on my third viewing.
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Commentaries are pretty good. Mostly done by the creator, Moore. He's typically candid and insightful. Not a bad idea if you want to understand more of the creative process behind BSG.
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Hmm, I'm not sure if my boxset even has any commentaries. I should really check that out.
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Hmm, I'm not sure if my boxset even has any commentaries. I should really check that out.
The complete series box set including The Plan? It has it. (At least the Blu-ray version does)
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Nah I have the one that was just before The Plan. Probably not got any commentaries, but oh well. :lol
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I don't know. My stand-alone DVDs have intermittent commentaries for the first season, then the podcast commentaries for every episode afterward.
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Just watched through the entire series and the finale had me all choked up.
Anyone else shed a few tears?
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Just watched through the entire series and the finale had me all choked up.
Anyone else shed a few tears?
It's been a while since I've seen it, but the Adama/Rosselyn story line may have made me weep a bit.
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I cried.
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I really enjoyed it.
But I must say, there were times where I thought the show lost its edge. Quite often there were storyline developments that I showed little interest in.
I think from the top of my head, The first parts of Season 2 and 3 and 4 were disappointing. 1 stayed steady all the way through and was probably the best Season. 4 had a shaky start but really picked up again towards the end.
In all, it's a great TV show. Different sure, but not quite on the same caliber as The Sopranos, Deadwood, The Wire and other top-level HBO dramas.
But it's been over a week now since i've wathed the finale. And I do miss it.
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Just watched through the entire series and the finale had me all choked up.
Anyone else shed a few tears?
No. It seemed so forced.
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I think from the top of my head, The first parts of Season.... 3... disappointing.
HOW CAN YOU SAY THAT
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Just watched through the entire series and the finale had me all choked up.
Anyone else shed a few tears?
No. It seemed so forced.
You have no soul.
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Just watched through the entire series and the finale had me all choked up.
Anyone else shed a few tears?
No. It seemed so forced.
You have no soul.
Yup, I definitely teared up.
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Well that was awesome. Man, I'm still trying to collect my thoughts. So I'll keep my thoughts away for a second and just say what I feel:
The ending on Earth was gorgeous, with each of the characters going out perfectly. I teared up several times, but most of all for Adama and Laura. Man, what a fabulous character. I also absolutely love how Gaius ended up. Same with Lee. I think where they went with the show was great. They hit a couple bumps along the way-- but ultimately I'm satisfied. Man, I'm at such a loss for words, so someone else better ask me what I thought about stuff because I'm not gonna be able to think of it now :P
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What did you think of the whole Starbuck thing?
I was pretty disappointed with it. How she just disappears into thin air, I didn't like it. Starbuck was a major, major player in the BSG universe, she deserved a better ending.
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She did. She just kinda up and disappears. But I do think it made sense-- she was on borrowed time. I'm not sure how else they could have done her. And that reminds me-- Gaius. I liked him in the Christ role, but since they did nothing with those characters I am still sort of wondering why he was put there to begin with. Then again, his Christ role was one of the more interesting things about the season in its early stages, so yeah.
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What did you think of the whole Starbuck thing?
I was pretty disappointed with it. How she just disappears into thin air, I didn't like it. Starbuck was a major, major player in the BSG universe, she deserved a better ending.
I don't see why. Her story arc comes to an end, same as everyone else's, which is one thing I really loved the ending. I also like the way it doesn't explain everything and allows you to keeping thinking or make your own interpretation.
Glad you loved the ending so much Joe, it's one of my favourite things ever. :D
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I somewhat agree with that, but since everybody got a proper ending, Starbuck just disappearing really disappointed me.
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Just watched through the entire series and the finale had me all choked up.
Anyone else shed a few tears?
No. It seemed so forced.
You have no soul.
Yup, I definitely teared up.
I didn't cry but I did feel moved. I guess I have some soul and some guts :p
The starbuck ending was good as it was mysterious and supports my belief in her appearing as she had "unfinished business" that the gods made sure she could see out.
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So, what theories are there as to what actually happened? This is mine:
The crew jumped back in time to Earth, as they had before several times, but instead of using their technology and status to become like gods to the indigenous people (The Lords of Kolbat) they decide to intergrate with them instead.
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Just watched through the entire series and the finale had me all choked up.
Anyone else shed a few tears?
No. It seemed so forced.
You have no soul.
I suppose the Adama/Roselyn bit was quite moving, but just the entire way the series was wrapped up left me feeling unsatisfied.
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So, what theories are there as to what actually happened? This is mine:
The crew jumped back in time to Earth, as they had before several times, but instead of using their technology and status to become like gods to the indigenous people (The Lords of Kolbat) they decide to intergrate with them instead.
When did they ever jump back in time before? As far as I know the show just takes place 150,000 years ago. All of it.
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So, what theories are there as to what actually happened? This is mine:
The crew jumped back in time to Earth, as they had before several times, but instead of using their technology and status to become like gods to the indigenous people (The Lords of Kolbat) they decide to intergrate with them instead.
I don't think there was any time travel involved. I think the 'Earth' that they were always seeking was indeed a planet of their own that turned out to be unliveable, but that when they found the new planet they decided to treat it in the same way.
But yeah I definitely agree about them just integrating in.
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Also, Kobol not Kolbat.
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Well, I totally got the idea that if there hasn't been time travel, there's at least been a total "reset."
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Well, I totally got the idea that if there hasn't been time travel, there's at least been a total "reset."
I'm not sure what you mean by reset?
Like I said, I'm pretty sure the show just takes place 150,000 years ago. Not now, not in the future.
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Well, I totally got the idea that if there hasn't been time travel, there's at least been a total "reset."
I'm not sure what you mean by reset?
Like I said, I'm pretty sure the show just takes place 150,000 years ago. Not now, not in the future.
That. It's not a show about the future, but rather the past.
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yeah there was definitely a kind of "reset" with the abandoning of the technology, but i too doubt the time travel aspect just cos they didn't even approach that area of science fiction all show...
(MASSIVE SPOLER)
---------------------I thought it was a cheesey yet cool finish when the planet, left to its own devices, became us, rather than weird freakout cycle in that the planet they are on became the Earth of the original tribes-----------------------
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The best thing about the ending was that I knew all the characters I hated were about to die from starvation. :biggrin:
Edit: That sounds harsh, and I don't mean it. What I was joking about was that it was such an obvious and forced last minute decision that they forgot that crops aren't going to be domesticated for another 140,000 years.
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(MASSIVE SPOLER)
---------------------I thought it was a cheesey yet cool finish when the planet, left to its own devices, became us, rather than weird freakout cycle in that the planet they are on became the Earth of the original tribes-----------------------
That would've actually tied perfectly to the "all of this has happened before and it will happen again" theme of the show.
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Well, I totally got the idea that if there hasn't been time travel, there's at least been a total "reset."
I'm not sure what you mean by reset?
Like I said, I'm pretty sure the show just takes place 150,000 years ago. Not now, not in the future.
I mean Humanity resets itself. New earth, new start. The fact that we see present day Earth in shambles with references to our world remembered-- like Bob Dylan lyrics-- makes me think that the timeline is cyclic-- all of this has happened before.
The best thing about the ending was that I knew all the characters I hated were about to die from starvation. :biggrin:
Edit: That sounds harsh, and I don't mean it. What I was joking about was that it was such an obvious and forced last minute decision that they forgot that crops aren't going to be domesticated for another 140,000 years.
It wasn't last minute or forced. I just skipped around the commentary, and they knew they were what the ending was going to be from the onset of season four. And come on, you could find a lot about the show that probably wouldn't hold up if you thought about it enough. It's Science Fiction, not science.
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We didn't see our earth in shambles. We saw another planet that they happened to call earth.
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We didn't see our earth in shambles. We saw another planet that they happened to call earth.
I'll have to go back and watch again. I thought I remembered making out pretty distinct continents of Earth there.
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We didn't see our earth in shambles. We saw another planet that they happened to call earth.
I'll have to go back and watch again. I thought I remembered making out pretty distinct continents of Earth there.
The planet they showed at the end of season 3 has the same continents as this Earth (they showed the American Continent), but IIRC, the producers used that so that people could quickly recognize that they are going to earth. But the Earth of the thirteenth tribe is not the the same Earth as ours.
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I see. I guess I took the "cyclic" theme of the show to the greatest extent when trying to figure out what happened. The show isn't really a cycle-- it's more like a spiral.
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I see. I guess I took the "cyclic" theme of the show to the greatest extent when trying to figure out what happened. The show isn't really a cycle-- it's more like a spiral.
Well I think the cyclic theme still holds. They abandon their technology and start anew, and eventually it leads to the present day on our own earth - and then presumably the implication is that we will continue to advance until we come close to destroying ourselves, and so on. Just because it wasn't the same planet doesn't mean the theme isn't there.
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We didn't see our earth in shambles. We saw another planet that they happened to call earth.
I'll have to go back and watch again. I thought I remembered making out pretty distinct continents of Earth there.
The planet they showed at the end of season 3 has the same continents as this Earth (they showed the American Continent), but IIRC, the producers used that so that people could quickly recognize that they are going to earth. But the Earth of the thirteenth tribe is not the the same Earth as ours.
I don't remember spotting that it had the same continents - or at least the americas. All I really remember is that moment when they arrive on the Earth of the original tribe.
Amusing that they only showed the americas, guess they needed as many stupid people to cotton on as possible and showing eurasia would have thrown some people when it was originally aired :p
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Can't read everything, but (EARTH SPOILERS):
At the end of season 3 we see Earth2, which is where the show ends.
In Sometimes a Great Notion we see Earth1, the home of the 13th tribe. The producers were very smart in the the episode before. We saw green and blue for oceans and continents, but we saw landmasses we only assumed are our continents. When you look again they're very generic looking.
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I see. I guess I took the "cyclic" theme of the show to the greatest extent when trying to figure out what happened. The show isn't really a cycle-- it's more like a spiral.
Well I think the cyclic theme still holds. They abandon their technology and start anew, and eventually it leads to the present day on our own earth - and then presumably the implication is that we will continue to advance until we come close to destroying ourselves, and so on. Just because it wasn't the same planet doesn't mean the theme isn't there.
That's what I meant by a "spiral," not a "cylce." A cycle ends up at a starting point. A spirals ends up at something/somewhere just like the starting point, but a little different.
K, just remembered one thing--- I really wanted closure on Gaius' followers, and its a shame that nothing was done with them. However, that moment where Gaius cries at the end, when he realizes how hard his life is going to be from here on out, is one of the best in the entire show.
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Name all the Battlestar Episodes on Sporcle. (https://www.sporcle.com/games/Brian_san/bsg_episodes)
I got 68 out of 79. I don't believe that's healthy.
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Name all the Battlestar Episodes on Sporcle. (https://www.sporcle.com/games/Brian_san/bsg_episodes)
I got 68 out of 79. I don't believe that's healthy.
I don't think I could name a single one. But I never pay attention to names of episodes of any TV show.
But that's really cool that you got such a good memory. :)
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I got the soundtracks over the weekend and been working my way through them, currently on season 3, and my God did Bear McCreary did some fantastic music!! I tip my hat to him! :tup
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He is pretty damn awesome :heart
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Name all the Battlestar Episodes on Sporcle. (https://www.sporcle.com/games/Brian_san/bsg_episodes)
I got 68 out of 79. I don't believe that's healthy.
I don't think I could name a single one. But I never pay attention to names of episodes of any TV show.
You can't even remember Razor or The Plan?
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Name all the Battlestar Episodes on Sporcle. (https://www.sporcle.com/games/Brian_san/bsg_episodes)
I got 68 out of 79. I don't believe that's healthy.
I don't think I could name a single one. But I never pay attention to names of episodes of any TV show.
You can't even remember Razor or The Plan?
I don't really consider those episodes.
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No, they aren't, but they were on the test. :p You'd get at least 2.
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No, they aren't, but they were on the test. :p You'd get at least 2.
I got 5 out of 79. Aside from those two I remembered 33, Scar and Miniseries.
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Heh, I got 33 and Scar as well but didn't realize the miniseries was named so precisely. I just quit after that since I had no idea.
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I remember the names of a few of the episodes... but not the order, besides Miniseries, 33 and Water.
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Amazon has the box sets marked down by about 60% today only! I'm really tempted to get it because you'll never find it cheaper than this. I just spent a bunch of money on a The Dear Hunter box set though, so I'm trying to make up my mind.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/feature.html/ref=xs_gb_A3N1RCPEYPH9IV?ie=UTF8&docId=1000666761&pf_rd_p=441937901&pf_rd_s=right-1&pf_rd_t=701&pf_rd_i=20&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=1QTHG4EX0G4ZY8F9KMEH
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*inserts derivative, predictable comment about season 4*
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At that price, season 4 is only about $20! I'd say it's still worth it.
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SPOILERS
I'd pay $5 for Cally getting killed, and $5 for Boomer getting killed.
And 25 cents for the first episode.
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I just caved in and got it. I've been meaning to get it since it came out so I couldn't pass up the price.
Two ~$80 purchases in as many days though. My bank account is hurting!
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Name all the Battlestar Episodes on Sporcle. (https://www.sporcle.com/games/Brian_san/bsg_episodes)
I got 68 out of 79. I don't believe that's healthy.
Thats scary man.... :lol
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I'm watching the series again for the second time. Loved it the first time, and even more this time. My GF who does NOT like sci-fi per se.... absolutely LOVES it!!!! Tonight is the last 3 episodes... I'm so excited for her to see the end :)
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I just caved in and got it. I've been meaning to get it since it came out so I couldn't pass up the price.
:tup
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So!! We finished it up with the 3 part "Daybreak" episodes... needless to say...we were both shedding some tears when Roslyn went...... and when Starbuck dissapeared. What a fantastic series.
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So!! We finished it up with the 3 part "Daybreak" episodes... needless to say...we were both shedding some tears when Roslyn went...... and when Starbuck dissapeared. What a fantastic series.
What are these words doing so close together
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So!! We finished it up with the 3 part "Daybreak" episodes... needless to say...we were both shedding some tears when Roslyn went...... and when Starbuck dissapeared. What a fantastic series.
What are these words doing so close together
ummm...you lost me ???.... Im a lil slow at times :biggrin:
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So!! We finished it up with the 3 part "Daybreak" episodes... needless to say...we were both shedding some tears when Roslyn went...... and when Starbuck dissapeared. What a fantastic series.
What are these words doing so close together
ummm...you lost me ???.... Im a lil slow at times :biggrin:
He hates the final season and just about everything about it.
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So!! We finished it up with the 3 part "Daybreak" episodes... needless to say...we were both shedding some tears when Roslyn went...... and when Starbuck dissapeared. What a fantastic series.
What are these words doing so close together
ummm...you lost me ???.... Im a lil slow at times :biggrin:
He hates the final season and just about everything about it.
Ahhh... Gracias ;D I loved the last season. I think they answered most if not all the major points. I hate when a show leaves you hanging, and that didn't happen here.
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Yeah I love the whole show, but especially seasons 3 and 4. SO EPIC!
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Yeah I love the whole show, but especially seasons 3 and 4. SO EPIC!
I really enjoyed it more the second time around, Me an her agreed to watch the whole series again in a couple years ;D
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Yeah I love the whole show, but especially seasons 3 and 4. SO EPIC!
I really enjoyed it more the second time around, Me an her agreed to watch the whole series again in a couple years ;D
Yeah, it's a great series to rewatch with others. I'm actually just starting a third run with some friends of mine. We watched the mini-series last week and tonight we start the actual episodes. They have no idea what they're in for.
It will be glorious.
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Yeah I love the whole show, but especially seasons 3 and 4. SO EPIC!
I really enjoyed it more the second time around, Me an her agreed to watch the whole series again in a couple years ;D
Yeah, it's a great series to rewatch with others. I'm actually just starting a third run with some friends of mine. We watched the mini-series last week and tonight we start the actual episodes. They have no idea what they're in for.
It will be glorious.
:tup Enjoy!!!
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Posting here cos I couldn't find a Caprica thread, I just watched the first episode today and I'm really excited to continue, I'm getting all nostalgic over BSG :heart
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Posting here cos I couldn't find a Caprica thread, I just watched the first episode today and I'm really excited to continue, I'm getting all nostalgic over BSG :heart
That's so weird, I'm actually literally watching the entire series of Caprica as I type this.
But be prepared to be disappointed. The pilot episode is WAY better than the entire rest of the series. It's not....awful, just awfully boring.
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Aww I was really looking forward to some BSG related awesomeness :( I'll stick it out anyway though. Maybe I'll rewatch all of BSG at some point too :)
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I really liked Caprica, don't listen to Adami, he's just a buzzkillington. I think the main problem with it (that led to lowish viewing numbers and subsequent cancellation) was that it's pretty complex right from the start. BSG started very simple, but added layer upon layer to gradually suck people in and eventually become very intricate. Caprica starts pretty intricate (lots of different characters and plot lines straight away) and as a result was probably less accessible. I really enjoyed it though, and it's such a shame it only lasted one season. :(
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I really liked Caprica, don't listen to Adami, he's just a buzzkillington. I think the main problem with it (that led to lowish viewing numbers and subsequent cancellation) was that it's pretty complex right from the start. BSG started very simple, but added layer upon layer to gradually suck people in and eventually become very intricate. Caprica starts pretty intricate (lots of different characters and plot lines straight away) and as a result was probably less accessible. I really enjoyed it though, and it's such a shame it only lasted one season. :(
I want to respond to this.
When I wrote that last post, I had only seen half of the season, well less then that. However, I'm nearing the end and I must say it's not a perfect show by any stretch, but it's much better than I remembered or thought it would be. I think the problem is that it takes WAY too much time. And I love a slow moving show as much as the next apple muncher, but takes too long to make the points it wants to make. It also seems like at times, the writers aren't really sure what the hell they want to do with the show. However, the world(s) they create are incredible, the characters are great, the acting is top notch, the dialogue is good and the overall plots are great. However, I think they could have done a lot more with what they had.
They also seem to set the show....like 10-20 years too early. I think it takes place 58 years before BSG? Which would mean Adama in BSG is like 70 years old.
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Ok. Wow. So....yea. Just finished the finale.
...........frak. That was amazing.
I take back my issue with Adama being too old. I'm sorry for that.
Of course there is one issue I have, is that they seem to have invented a skin job but ..............I dunno, shouldn't anyone from the future have noticed that it existed? Or that the Graystones could do it but the Cylons couldn't figure it out?
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Ah yeah, forgot you hadn't seen the whole series, it definitely gets better in the second half!
Of course there is one issue I have, is that they seem to have invented a skin job but ..............I dunno, shouldn't anyone from the future have noticed that it existed? Or that the Graystones could do it but the Cylons couldn't figure it out?
Well, it was just the one, no reason that everyone should know all about it (although I can't remember exactly how it ends now).
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MEGA BUMP!
A trailer for Blood & Chrome is out.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0ixAkA5bng&feature=player_embedded
Holy horrible Immigrant Song cover, Batman!
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Damn, didn't even know about this, fucking sweet!!!
I did cringe a bit at the comment "song name please", fuck I'm getting old.
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Looks like BSG. Which is good.
I'm happy this is finally happening. Any idea of a release date?
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MEGA BUMP!
A trailer for Blood & Chrome is out.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0ixAkA5bng&feature=player_embedded
Holy horrible Immigrant Song cover, Batman!
wtf that's an awesome cover you noob.
Also, I am excite.
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MEGA BUMP!
A trailer for Blood & Chrome is out.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0ixAkA5bng&feature=player_embedded
Holy horrible Immigrant Song cover, Batman!
Holy special effects budget, Batman!
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wtf that's an awesome cover you noob.
...no
I'm happy this is finally happening. Any idea of a release date?
Nope.
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You fool it's Trent Reznor, Atticus Ross, and Karen O. What's not to like about that?
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It was cool until the vocals came in.
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I know who made the song, it's still bad. The vocals are particularly horrible.
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STOP DISLIKING WHAT I LIKE
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BUT WHY MUST YOU LIKE WHAT I DISLIKE!!!
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Wait, there's something BSG related coming out? WHY DIDN'T I KNOW ABOUT THIS :dangerwillrobinson:
Edit:
This video contains content from NBC Universal, who has blocked it on copyright grounds.
Sorry about that.
Aww :(
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Wait, there's something BSG related coming out? WHY DIDN'T I KNOW ABOUT THIS :dangerwillrobinson:
Edit:
This video contains content from NBC Universal, who has blocked it on copyright grounds.
Sorry about that.
Aww :(
The link here still worked as of five seconds ago.
https://io9.com/5895080/totally-badass-trailer-for-battlestar-galacticas-cylon-war-prequel-blood-and-chrome (https://io9.com/5895080/totally-badass-trailer-for-battlestar-galacticas-cylon-war-prequel-blood-and-chrome)
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Aaaah thank you so much!! I'm so excite :caffeine:
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Aaaah thank you so much!! I'm so excite :caffeine:
Always happy to help out a pretty lady in distress. :tup
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:laugh: :heart
I really wanna go back and watch all of BSG again now. Once was not enough!
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I'm in season two of my second run through, such a great show.
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Definitely, I think I can safely say it's one of the best tv shows I've ever watched.
lolI'msuchanerd.
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I need to do a second watch through too, but it'll have to wait till I go through Breaking Bad and Mad Men (I KNOW IM SO BEHING THE TIMES)
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lolI'msuchanerd.
Nerd chicks are hot. :heart
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Definitely, I think I can safely say it's one of the best tv shows I've ever watched.
lolI'msuchanerd.
I'd say it's my absolute favourite, have watched it through twice and want to do so a third time.
lolI'mabiggernerd!
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:heart
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I've watched the show 2 and a half times, so yeah...
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https://tv.ign.com/articles/122/1221327p1.html
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!
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I was never holding out much hope that it would be good. Might very well be for the best.
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https://tv.ign.com/articles/122/1221327p1.html
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!
I'm not even a BSG fan at all, but that sucks huge donkey balls. This just continues SyFy's sad trend of shunning actual scifi. There's basically nothing anymore.
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To be fair, Syfy does need to preserve as much money as possible for the 200 Syfy original movies they're making this year about evil mutant robot vengeful carrots or whatever. God Syfy has gone down the drain.
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Say what you want, Alien Apocalypse is an amazing planet-of-the-apes-ripoff-where-the-apes-are-head-eating-termites.
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Okay, VERY late to the party here, but I just got season 1 and started watching over the weeked. It was a chore getting through the opening 4-hour episode. Not because it was bad--just because it is hard to find a 4-hour block of time. I had to split it up to get through it.
First impression: :tup Seems very well done. The story is compelling. The characters are pretty interesting. The pacing is good. It's a little annoying that ships that the major characters are in somehow miraculously survive attacks that seem to leave all other ships/buildings/planets being nothing more than dust, but whatever--this has been a problem with movies for...probably as long as there have been movies. A couple of the big questions the audience is left with at this very early stage:
-Does Gaius really have a chip in his head that essentially makes him a potential tool of the Cylons? Definitely possible. Those scenes are done pretty well in terms of really keeping you guessing whether Ms. Cylon is really talking to him or if he's just out of his mind. Personally, I'm guessing she isn't really there. I think Gaius' struggle to cope with the fact that he is responsible for billions of deaths and the possible end of humanity has him nuts to the point of hallucinating.
-Is Boomer a Cylon? No. Simply because I refuse to believe she might be.
But these questions (and other things) are more than enough to keep me coming back.
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I don't wish to answer your questions. It could ruin some of the joy of watching the series. I will say that I also struggled getting through the opener. Very long and knowing nothing about the series, it was a bit difficult to follow. I had to watch it twice.
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Okay, VERY late to the party here, but I just got season 1 and started watching over the weeked. It was a chore getting through the opening 4-hour episode. Not because it was bad--just because it is hard to find a 4-hour block of time. I had to split it up to get through it.
First impression: :tup Seems very well done. The story is compelling. The characters are pretty interesting. The pacing is good. It's a little annoying that ships that the major characters are in somehow miraculously survive attacks that seem to leave all other ships/buildings/planets being nothing more than dust, but whatever--this has been a problem with movies for...probably as long as there have been movies. A couple of the big questions the audience is left with at this very early stage:
-Does Gaius really have a chip in his head that essentially makes him a potential tool of the Cylons? Definitely possible. Those scenes are done pretty well in terms of really keeping you guessing whether Ms. Cylon is really talking to him or if he's just out of his mind. Personally, I'm guessing she isn't really there. I think Gaius' struggle to cope with the fact that he is responsible for billions of deaths and the possible end of humanity has him nuts to the point of hallucinating.
-Is Boomer a Cylon? No. Simply because I refuse to believe she might be.
But these questions (and other things) are more than enough to keep me coming back.
Both of those questions get answered. One more definitely than the other, but still it's great stuff.
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Oh are you in for a treat. While the entire show is reasonably good-some of season 3 lags, and they got bitchslapped hard by the writer's strike during season four-the first two seasons of Galactica are among the best television I've ever seen. You might as well go buy season two now. Trust me, you'll want to. :D
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Oh are you in for a treat. While the entire show is reasonably good-some of season 3 lags, and they got bitchslapped hard by the writer's strike during season four-the first two seasons of Galactica are among the best television I've ever seen. You might as well go buy season two now. Trust me, you'll want to. :D
I don't agree that seasons 3 and 4 are bad. I liked the elements they threw in. Granted there were a few.....well loose ends and random plots that didn't go anywhere, it was still amazing TV which cemented BSG as the greatest sci-fi show ever.
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I picked up season 1 for only $10! I'm hoping for similar finds for the later seasons once I am ready for them.
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Seasons 3 and 4 are good, yes, but they have the weakest points for me-mainly the middle of three, which gets really episodic rather than arc based (I understand that was Sci-Fi's meddling there, and they wisely ignored that sort of advice for the last season) and there are rough edges in the first half of season four that came from the pressure of getting them done before the writers strike. The second half of season four is brilliant, and fuck the haters, I love the finale, it's goddamn amazing.
And yes, that is a good deal, since I paid $49 for season 1 and 3 and, I believe, something around $30 apiece for the split sets of seasons 2 and 4. :lol
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Oh are you in for a treat.
This and
You might as well go buy season two now. Trust me, you'll want to. :D
this.
For so long I was so prepared to NOT like the reboot for some stupid reason or whatever. I was hooked from the 4-hour intro. SUCH good television.
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I never felt predisposed against it in any way. I just didn't really realize when it was airing on TV, so I missed it. (we may not have even had cable at the time, actually) I love that with the DVD's, I can basically watch whenever I have time.
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Okay, VERY late to the party here, but I just got season 1 and started watching over the weeked. It was a chore getting through the opening 4-hour episode. Not because it was bad--just because it is hard to find a 4-hour block of time. I had to split it up to get through it.
First impression: :tup Seems very well done. The story is compelling. The characters are pretty interesting. The pacing is good. It's a little annoying that ships that the major characters are in somehow miraculously survive attacks that seem to leave all other ships/buildings/planets being nothing more than dust, but whatever--this has been a problem with movies for...probably as long as there have been movies. A couple of the big questions the audience is left with at this very early stage:
-Does Gaius really have a chip in his head that essentially makes him a potential tool of the Cylons? Definitely possible. Those scenes are done pretty well in terms of really keeping you guessing whether Ms. Cylon is really talking to him or if he's just out of his mind. Personally, I'm guessing she isn't really there. I think Gaius' struggle to cope with the fact that he is responsible for billions of deaths and the possible end of humanity has him nuts to the point of hallucinating.
-Is Boomer a Cylon? No. Simply because I refuse to believe she might be.
But these questions (and other things) are more than enough to keep me coming back.
Both of those questions get answered. One more definitely than the other, but still it's great stuff.
I don't doubt it. And I'm sure the answer to the second question is actually "yes." There doesn't really seem to be any way around it given how the pilot ended. I'm just in denial (or maybe she will be a Cylon turned good, sort of like how in the Terminator/SCC TV series, some of the machines rebelled against Skynet and were either fighting to support the humans or were fighting against Skynet for their own independent reasons).
The other question, I'm much more undecided about. The bigger question to me about Gaius is whether he will follow an arc that will lead him to actually completely defect to the Cylons and fight against the humans as he did in the original series. But that isn't really raised so far just in the pilot (although there is enough foundation for it that an arc like that later in the series wouldn't surprise me).
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I never felt predisposed against it in any way. I just didn't really realize when it was airing on TV, so I missed it. (we may not have even had cable at the time, actually) I love that with the DVD's, I can basically watch whenever I have time.
Well, like I said - my reason for disliking it (which I can't even remember now :lol ) was completely off-base and stupid. It wasn't that I was loyal to the original either, because that was a big ball of late 70s/80s cheese a lot of the time. :lol I basically did the same thing too - watch at my leisure, instead of having to wait for the episodes to air (especially during season 4).
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I thought season 1 was the best and 2 was really good, but i thought the show went downhill from ther, not that it was bad, but like a lot of shows, it got convoluted and lost the spark that the beginning of the series had.
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I'm probably going to mostly stay away from this thread again so that I don't accidentally spoil things (I already accidentally found out something I didn't want to know by going to the wiki page for the 1979 series--I was trying to recall some details about one of the characters from back in the original series, and they included something in that entry about what is different in the character in the new series, along with a big spoiler. >:( ). I may report on my viewing progress from time to time.
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I'm probably going to mostly stay away from this thread again so that I don't accidentally spoil things (I already accidentally found out something I didn't want to know by going to the wiki page for the 1979 series--I was trying to recall some details about one of the characters from back in the original series, and they included something in that entry about what is different in the character in the new series, along with a big spoiler. >:( ). I may report on my viewing progress from time to time.
My only advice; ignore GuineaPigs hateful rants on the last 2 seasons of BSG. Please for your own sake.
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No worries. I pretty much ignore his hateful rants on EVERYTHING.
It may take me awhile to get through these, unfortunately. My wife is pretty selective about what sci-fi she likes, and this didn't click with her. I may try to go back and re-watch the pilot with her to see whether it clicks. If not, my ability to watch will be greatly slowed down, because my TV time is already severely limited given my busy schedule, and TV time without her is almost nonexistent.
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It may take me awhile to get through these, unfortunately. My wife is pretty selective about what sci-fi she likes, and this didn't click with her.
Divorce is the only course of action.
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It may take me awhile to get through these, unfortunately. My wife is pretty selective about what sci-fi she likes, and this didn't click with her.
Divorce is the only course of action.
Don't discount murder.
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It may take me awhile to get through these, unfortunately. My wife is pretty selective about what sci-fi she likes, and this didn't click with her.
Divorce is the only course of action.
Don't discount murder.
Of course not. But I prefer to rely on stealth, and you have an annoying habit of always locking your windows before you go to sleep. So I wait...
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It's a little annoying that ships that the major characters are in somehow miraculously survive attacks that seem to leave all other ships/buildings/planets being nothing more than dust, but whatever--this has been a problem with movies for...probably as long as there have been movies.
Just to answer this point, it's not a flaw and it's not a coincidental thing that somehow all the major characters survive - these people are the major characters precisely BECAUSE they survive. Roslin is not a big politician, she's an education minister (or something along those lines) but ends up as president simply because all of the people above her are killed. We are introduced to the characters because they are the ones who end up on the run together.
Otherwise I'm glad you're digging it, I personally think it's the greatest TV show ever!
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Roslin was Caprica City's Secretary of Education - very close, Rich. :biggrin:
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It's a little annoying that ships that the major characters are in somehow miraculously survive attacks that seem to leave all other ships/buildings/planets being nothing more than dust, but whatever--this has been a problem with movies for...probably as long as there have been movies.
Just to answer this point, it's not a flaw and it's not a coincidental thing that somehow all the major characters survive - these people are the major characters precisely BECAUSE they survive. Roslin is not a big politician, she's an education minister (or something along those lines) but ends up as president simply because all of the people above her are killed. We are introduced to the characters because they are the ones who end up on the run together.
Well, yes and no. I mean, we have the premise set up in the beginning that the guys on the Galactica are the main "good guys" that we are supposed to like and identify with. So obviously, they are going to survive. Then we have this sequence of events: 30 megaton nukes hit Caprica and are (rightly) so devastating that the flashes from these bombs and their resulting mushroom clouds can be seen from orbit. But later, when a similar 30 megaton bomb scores a direct hit on the Galactica, it's, "Well, shoot. It's a miracle we lived; its a blessing no one died; by the grace of God above, LET'S SEAL OFF THAT PART OF THE SHIP RESULTING IN ONLY 85 CASUALTIES AND THEN LET'S GO FIND A DRYDOCK TO JUST REPAIR THE DAMAGE." :| Okay... But, hey, I'm not overly complaining. You always get a big of that in most stories and have to suspend belief just a bit. Overall, it's a minor flaw. But you can't really say it isn't a flaw at all.
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It's a little annoying that ships that the major characters are in somehow miraculously survive attacks that seem to leave all other ships/buildings/planets being nothing more than dust, but whatever--this has been a problem with movies for...probably as long as there have been movies.
Just to answer this point, it's not a flaw and it's not a coincidental thing that somehow all the major characters survive - these people are the major characters precisely BECAUSE they survive. Roslin is not a big politician, she's an education minister (or something along those lines) but ends up as president simply because all of the people above her are killed. We are introduced to the characters because they are the ones who end up on the run together.
Well, yes and no. I mean, we have the premise set up in the beginning that the guys on the Galactica are the main "good guys" that we are supposed to like and identify with. So obviously, they are going to survive. Then we have this sequence of events: 30 megaton nukes hit Caprica and are (rightly) so devastating that the flashes from these bombs and their resulting mushroom clouds can be seen from orbit. But later, when a similar 30 megaton bomb scores a direct hit on the Galactica, it's, "Well, shoot. It's a miracle we lived; its a blessing no one died; by the grace of God above, LET'S SEAL OFF THAT PART OF THE SHIP RESULTING IN ONLY 85 CASUALTIES AND THEN LET'S GO FIND A DRYDOCK TO JUST REPAIR THE DAMAGE." :| Okay... But, hey, I'm not overly complaining. You always get a big of that in most stories and have to suspend belief just a bit. Overall, it's a minor flaw. But you can't really say it isn't a flaw at all.
The nuke thing is actually scientifically legit. Think about the difference between lighting a firecracker with your hand open (stupid, but there's a decent chance you'll still have your hand) and doing it with your hand closed (fingers will be lost). Unlike on a planet, most of the energy of the blast dissipates away from the Galactica into space.
Also, I have to ask, why do you think Boomer might not be a Cylon?
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Also, I have to ask, why do you think Boomer might not be a Cylon?
Legimately? No good reason whatsoever. Emotionally? They just can't do that to such a good character, so I refuse to buy into it full-on until it is just inescapable.
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There is no way to even hint at what happens with Boomer that isn't a spoiler fest, but...trust me, this is a rare case of where you wind up being able to have your cake AND eat it too. Trust me on this. :lol
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No worries. I pretty much ignore his hateful rants on EVERYTHING.
It may take me awhile to get through these, unfortunately. My wife is pretty selective about what sci-fi she likes, and this didn't click with her. I may try to go back and re-watch the pilot with her to see whether it clicks. If not, my ability to watch will be greatly slowed down, because my TV time is already severely limited given my busy schedule, and TV time without her is almost nonexistent.
Based on my experiences sharing the 4 hour pilot with several people, I wouldn't be surprised if she finds it slow and doesn't want to keep watching it. It picks up going forward, so ask her to give it a couple episodes after the miniseries before making a decision, or start with the first episode after the miniseries, filling her in with the necessary details.
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That makes sense. But it just seems like such necessary background for what is coming.
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I agree, but it can be a lot to process, especially for someone that is already pre-disposed against sci-fi. Several people I know didn't like the pilot much, but they ended up getting hooked later on. If she doesn't like it after the first two episodes, she probably won't like it at all.
You said it hadn't clicked with her; how much of it has she seen already?
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She has seen some of the pilot, but not the whole thing. I think all she really got from it is: There are aliens that look like people, so it's like Terminator (she really liked SCC, by the way), and they are chasing people in outer space.
But regardless, I like it. Space Mormons FTW!
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I love the pilot, but it is very much a case of setting things up. The first episode is where it really gets going - I know a fair few people who didn't like the pilot but were absolutely hooked from the first episode.
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I must be an anomaly, as I was hooked from the pilot. :lol
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Also, I have to ask, why do you think Boomer might not be a Cylon?
Legimately? No good reason whatsoever. Emotionally? They just can't do that to such a good character, so I refuse to buy into it full-on until it is just inescapable.
Watching that final scene of the miniseries wasn't inescapable enough??
I love the pilot, but it is very much a case of setting things up. The first episode is where it really gets going - I know a fair few people who didn't like the pilot but were absolutely hooked from the first episode.
Indeed! I like that final cliffhanger from the miniseries, but it was "33" that really got me into the series!! What an amazing episode!
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It's a much more character driven show than the premise makes it out to be. It's really a study of the human condition as opposed to straight sci-fi. There are no aliens or strange worlds. Technology isn't light years ahead (other than FTL travel).
I've heard of the connection between BSG and Mormanism, and while I'm not the most astute observer of subtlety (or knowledgeable about Mormanism in general), I can't say that it detracts from the show at all.
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Also, I have to ask, why do you think Boomer might not be a Cylon?
Legimately? No good reason whatsoever. Emotionally? They just can't do that to such a good character, so I refuse to buy into it full-on until it is just inescapable.
Watching that final scene of the miniseries wasn't inescapable enough??
Not necessarily. But you hammering the point home is really a jerk move because, as I said, there was some doubt in my mind. But you are unequivocally spoiling that issue, so thanks for that.
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I'm not spoiling anything the series hasn't already said!
IIRC, there's two Tricia Helfers (blonde one), two of the guy Adama killed a few minutes before and another of the reporter guy and then Boomer, who makes a statement very out of character from the Boomer the miniseries shows, so it couldn't be the same one we've seen.
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Boomer sucks.
Athena FTW.
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Meh, don't care for Athena and I hate, hate, HAAAATE her husband.
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Meh, don't care for Athena and I hate, hate, HAAAATE her husband.
First Norrin Radd and now Athena??!?!
YOU'VE GONE TOO FAR SIR!
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I do love me some Gaius.
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I do love me some Gaius.
More like....gayus.....right?
I WILL DESTROY YOU!
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No, more like Hoshi. ololol
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I haaaaate Helo. What a terrible character. Although this doesn't really become evident until later.
I dislike Athena as well.
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I haaaaate Helo. What a terrible character. Although this doesn't really become evident until later.
I dislike Athena as well.
And so it begins.
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He is right about Helo, though.
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Helo's cool.
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Helo's a dumbass!
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Helo's a dumbass!
One day you will get married and I will disapprove of your wife.
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My wife will disapprove of YOU!
No, but seriously, out of all the major characters of the show he's the only one I really hated.
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My wife will disapprove of YOU!
No, but seriously, out of all the major characters of the show he's the only one I really hated.
I don't think I hated anyone. I guess you could call me the antithesis of Guineapig.
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The anti-Pig
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The anti-Pig
Or as we call ourselves.....Jews.
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Oh, wow.
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Oh, wow.
It was a Kosher joke.
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Never really had a problem with Helo, it was Dualla I couldn't stand. SO annoying.
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Oh, wow.
It was a Kosher joke.
It wasn't Kosher with me. Consider me offended.
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My wife will disapprove of YOU!
No, but seriously, out of all the major characters of the show he's the only one I really hated.
I don't think I hated anyone. I guess you could call me the antithesis of Guineapig.
Same. Pretty much all of the characters have their flaws, but that's kinda the point.
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I do love me some Gaius.
NO MORE MISTER NICE GAIUS!
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:tup
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I do love me some Gaius.
NO MORE MISTER NICE GAIUS!
:rollin
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I do love me some Gaius.
NO MORE MISTER NICE GAIUS!
I loved that. In fact, when I first watched the series as it aired Baltar annoyed me, but when I rewatched the entire series on DVD he somehow wound up my favorite character in the series.
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He's brilliant :heart
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I loved that. In fact, when I first watched the series as it aired Baltar annoyed me, but when I rewatched the entire series on DVD he somehow wound up my favorite character in the series.
He really annoyed me at first too, but as the series progressed he became one of my favorites. I dare say that Gaius could be the key to just about everything, BSG mythology-wise.
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33...
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Water...
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The entirety of the series....
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33...
One of the best hours of TV!
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Definitely one of the best episodes. And a very interesting one, structurally, and how the narrative is developed.
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Definitely one of the best episodes.
Really? In that case, I am prepared to be majorly disappointed by the series.
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You didn't like 33????
Also....
DO YOU HEAR ME??? I AM COMING FOR YOU!!!!
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Bosk is worse than GP!!
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You didn't like 33????
No, I liked it. But it wasn't amazing or anything. If someone said it was middle-of-the-road for the series, that'd be cool. But if people are saying that is the best the series has to offer, then I can say pretty confidently the series does not live up to its reputation, IMO.
But there was some interesting stuff going on. And I think we learned a few things as well:
1. If Blondie is either really projecting herself into Gaius' mind through a chip, or if she is simply a collection of his actual memories and experiences with her and not just a COMPLETE delusion, we learned that the Cylons are very religious.
2. We learned that the Cylons do in fact take prisoners and are not out to completely annihilate humanity--at least, not right away.
3. We leared that there are at least two separate factions within he Cylon empire that seem to be opposed to one another.
4. We learned the president has no clue how to maintain proper security as chief executive, since she apparently lets whoever she pleases hang out in her office chambers.
I think that's about it right now...
DO YOU HEAR ME??? I AM COMING FOR YOU!!!!
??? Was that from 33? I'm not remembering it.
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Well, again, Roslin is just a teacher who only got the job because everyone above her in the ladder got nuke'd to hell!
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You didn't like 33????
No, I liked it. But it wasn't amazing or anything. If someone said it was middle-of-the-road for the series, that'd be cool.
33 is good, about middle of the road for me. There are far better episodes out there, IMO. I'm on my third viewing now and am a few episodes into season 3.
Btw, what did Mrs. Bosk1 think of it? (Almost typed her real name. :facepalm:)
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She was asleep. But I had to watch anyway.
Hey, are you going to the show?
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She was asleep. But I had to watch anyway.
Hey, are you going to the show?
I'm still undecided. I wasn't blown away by the setlist that they're playing.
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33 was good, don't get me wrong. It's just not the benchmark of the show IMO.
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33 is one of the best episodes of the show but not THE best. Still, I'm surprised you didn't like it. What specifically didn't you like or just not respond to? The shoe establishes very well what the series does well. You see characters make tough decisions in tense circumstances. You understand the texture and the humanity of these situations in a way that most shows would just gloss over. And some good Sci-Fi stuff (the concept behind the show is ingenious).
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Still, I'm surprised you didn't like it. What specifically didn't you like or just not respond to?
??? I said very clearly that I liked it. It was very good. But it wasn't stellar, that's all. And not that it needed to be. But I have heard that the series itself is stellar. So I was reacting to the comment that essentially said that 33 is the best episode of the entire series. If that is the case, and this episode is indeed the best of the series, I will be disappointed because that indicates to me that the series is merely "very good," and not "stellar." Clear now?
Anyhow, thinking back on the episode, I realize something. Maybe it's WAY too early to be making such a broad generalization, but the events in this eposide seem especially critical to the survival of humanity, and I think this episode was a HUGE turning point and a HUGE mistake on the part of the Cylons, even if it is extremely early in the timeline of events. Obviously, the Galactica is critical to the survival of humankind. Without it, what's left of the fleet does not survive. And if the fleet does not survive, humanity's only slim chance of surviving (or not being subjugated) is effectively wiped out. The Cylons had a prett brilliant plan. Knowing that humans need rest and the Cylons don't (or at least, they don't need it as much as we do), they places some sort of tracking device on the Olympic Carrier that allowed them to track the fleet and jump to their location every 33 minutes. The plan apparently was to keep pressing the attack until the humans were pushed far past the point of mental and physical exhaustion, and then have the Olympic Carrier lag behind, quickly take the humans captive and arm it with nukes to sneak into the fleet and attack. Brilliant plan. And it should have worked. And, really, after 5 days worth of having to fight and jump every 33 minutes, the humans should have been too exhausted to survive that plan. But the Cylons should have waited a bit longer. They should have waited until it became obvious from a pattern of human mistakes that the humans were indeed too exhausted to keep it up, and then executed the final stage of the plan. If they succeed, the fleet is doomed. But they acted too soon, and the humans had just enough awareness to figure out what was going on and destroy the carrier. Yes, they had Cylon help, apparently, from the faction that looks like it is supporing the humans. But still, time was on the Cylons' side. The longer they wait, the better their chance of success. Now, the fleet has apparently escaped what should have been sure defeat, and the Cylons have to wait for some break to figure out where the fleet is (or where it's going).
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Did you consider that the whole Olympic Carrier deal was also just a psychological game and not actual attempt to destroy humanity? It's not completely clear either way, but the Cylons REALLY like screwing with humans.
Also, I guess whether or not you view the epsidoe as "very good" or "stellar" depends on what you consider to be stellar.
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Did you consider that the whole Olympic Carrier deal was also just a psychological game and not actual attempt to destroy humanity? It's not completely clear either way, but the Cylons REALLY like screwing with humans.
No, I didn't consider that. Two reasons: (1) I haven't REALLY seen enough yet to show that they like screwing with humans. Not a huge deal, but try not to spoil things for me since I'm so new to the series. I'm posting in here because it's fun for me to chat about the series, and because I am assuming it is fun for fans of the series to get to see someone experience it step by step for the first time. So, please, try not to give too much away. (2) More importantly, the Galactica seems like a credible threat to the Cylons given that it is not susceptible to their virus and that it is going somewhere with a purpose and the Cylons do not likely know where or what the purpose is. Based on what has been revealed so far, it seems like the Galactica may be the ONLY remaining credible threat. So I am of the opinion that they likely want that threat eliminated. But of course, I could be mistaken.
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Well if they wanted to destroy Galactica they could just jump in with their magnaship.
Oh sorry, guess I spoiled that for you.
Also, in season 3 Adama fights a dragon.
Seriously though, the show leaves a lot open, so it's fun to explore lots of different motivations at different times.
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You know, I was thinking of re-watching the series. The thread getting bumped might just be the inspiration I needed.
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GOGOGOGOGOGOGOGOGOGOGOGOGOGOGOGO
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Also, in season 3 Adama fights a dragon.
I KNEW IT! :caffeine:
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You know, I was thinking of re-watching the series. The thread getting bumped might just be the inspiration I needed.
I'm kind of thinking the same thing.
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No, I didn't consider that. Two reasons: (1) I haven't REALLY seen enough yet to show that they like screwing with humans. Not a huge deal, but try not to spoil things for me since I'm so new to the series. I'm posting in here because it's fun for me to chat about the series, and because I am assuming it is fun for fans of the series to get to see someone experience it step by step for the first time. So, please, try not to give too much away. (2) More importantly, the Galactica seems like a credible threat to the Cylons given that it is not susceptible to their virus and that it is going somewhere with a purpose and the Cylons do not likely know where or what the purpose is. Based on what has been revealed so far, it seems like the Galactica may be the ONLY remaining credible threat. So I am of the opinion that they likely want that threat eliminated. But of course, I could be mistaken.
No spoilers here:
- Adama told Roslin Earth does not exist. To the best of human knowledge, Earth doesn't actually exist. There is no reason the Cylons would presume it exists.
- The Cylons consider letting the Galactica get away to be a credible threat. There is no reason to believe they find a credible threat in its current existence. They should warp in a bunch of Basestars and destroy it in a couple minutes. The fact that this hasn't happened should imply that more complex motivations than "cylons must destroy humans" are at work. Also note that Helo was left alive on purpose to be captured by/partnered with the Sharon on Caprica.
I say this only because if you look at the series and constantly think "wow, the Cylons are terrible at wiping out humanity. They never send a decisive attack force," it will diminish the viewing experience.
Note that I never said the Cylons weren't trying to kill all humans. Now I'll let your mind spin around asking questions. This is why the show is good.
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- Adama told Roslin Earth does not exist. To the best of human knowledge, Earth doesn't actually exist. There is no reason the Cylons would presume it exists.
Yes, I know that. But that kind of supports my point. The Cylons don't (likely) know where the fleet is headed or why. But, presumably, the fleet is headed somewhere to do something that is likely in humanity's interest, which then is likely to be contrary to the Cylons' interests. In that case, it behooves them to either destroy the fleet or find a way to keep a close eye on it. And the latter is risky because, again, the fleet could hypothetically be up to something that could turn the tide, and if the Cylons find out about whatever it is too late, they coud be in trouble. Hypothetically.
On another note, if we're pretending the events in the show are real, I personally don't want the fleet coming here. Since we basically have nothing that could even remotely have a chance of repelling a Cylon attack, I would much rather the fleet stay away so there is no risk of the Cylons finding out about our puny little world.
- The Cylons consider letting the Galactica get away to be a credible threat. There is no reason to believe they find a credible threat in its current existence. They should warp in a bunch of Basestars and destroy it in a couple minutes. The fact that this hasn't happened should imply that more complex motivations than "cylons must destroy humans" are at work. Also note that Helo was left alive on purpose to be captured by/partnered with the Sharon on Caprica.
Except that, hypothetically, the Galactica could warp away just as fast.
...if you look at the series and constantly think "wow, the Cylons are terrible at wiping out humanity. They never send a decisive attack force," it will diminish the viewing experience.
I don't view it as they're really bad at wiping us out. I view it as that they made a tactical error by getting impatient, which is perfectly understandable and makes the enemy at least somewhat relatable in their flawed nature instead of being perfect.
Note that I never said the Cylons weren't trying to kill all humans. Now I'll let your mind spin around asking questions. This is why the show is good.
I'll just let that go, other than to point out a couple of possibilities that seem like obvious possibilities, but which I don't really want anyone to answer (if the show even ever answeres it, which I suspect it may not). One is that they do want to wipe out all humanity, and the most efficient way to do that is to keep some survivors that they can use to learn the whereabouts of other survivors out there who are in hiding or are otherwise unknown to the Cylons. Another is that they don't want to completely wipe out humanity, but want to enslave or study us, and have to wipe out the vast majority so that there aren't enough humans left to mount any sort of uprising.
Oh, and: :awesomelon:
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You know one thing about the Cylons never sending a task force to ultimate wipe out the humans, perhaps there was still a creator connection to the Cylons that was never explored like it could have been that keeps them from really destroying the humans.
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Water...
YES!
But I am SO disappointed in Boomer. :(
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Water...
YES!
But I am SO disappointed in Boomer. :(
Why?
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Because she's clearly an evil Cylon who destroyed all the water.
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Because she's clearly an evil Cylon who destroyed all the water.
She's suffering from a split personality thing though. In the opening scene, we saw her confused by her circumstances and she had no one to lie to. The Boomer character you like is not responsible for the actions you refer to as evil.
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Because she's clearly an evil Cylon who destroyed all the water.
She's suffering from a split personality thing though. In the opening scene, we saw her confused by her circumstances and she had no one to lie to.
Yes, obviously. And I'm disappointed by that.
The Boomer character you like is not responsible for the actions you refer to as evil.
Um, no. "Split personality" or not, it's the same character.
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Um, no. "Split personality" or not, it's the same character.
Interesting. Actus non facit reum nisi mens sit rea?
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That's just as false in Latin as it is in English.
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Oh, and: :awesomelon:
OMG, that's so frakking COOL! :metal
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That's just as false in Latin as it is in English.
Hahaha.
But seriously, even if it happens through no fault of her own she's still responsible for it?
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I'd say yes, given what happens with that particular character further along in the series.
And that's about as close to a spoiler as I'll get, since bosk is still on the first season.
:awesomelon:
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That's just as false in Latin as it is in English.
Hahaha.
But seriously, even if it happens through no fault of her own she's still responsible for it?
Frankly, yes. But that has nothing to do with my original point. I was assuming that there were factions among the Cylons, and that she was part of a faction that decided to help the humans. Or, at the very least, that she had individually decided to help the humans. I am disappointed that that is not the case and that she appears to be, as described in the title sequence, more of a Cylon sleeper agent that may not realize what she is, and is now having her programming for anti-human missions activated. It's somewhat interesting that she is apparently struggling against that programming. But I also find it disappointing. Oh well.
Really curious, though, about how many other Cylons are aboard the fleet. There is one other I suspect, but I am sure that as the series unfolds there will likely be more.
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That's just as false in Latin as it is in English.
Hahaha.
But seriously, even if it happens through no fault of her own she's still responsible for it?
Frankly, yes. But that has nothing to do with my original point. I was assuming that there were factions among the Cylons, and that she was part of a faction that decided to help the humans. Or, at the very least, that she had individually decided to help the humans. I am disappointed that that is not the case and that she appears to be, as described in the title sequence, more of a Cylon sleeper agent that may not realize what she is, and is now having her programming for anti-human missions activated. It's somewhat interesting that she is apparently struggling against that programming. But I also find it disappointing. Oh well.
Really curious, though, about how many other Cylons are aboard the fleet. There is one other I suspect, but I am sure that as the series unfolds there will likely be more.
Regarding your first point: Yes, that's how it appears right now. I'll leave it at that to avoid spoilers.
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I guess I should also say: :clap: at the fact that they even did an episode on water in the first place. It's cool that they are taking the time to acknowledge some of the practical difficulties in just taking care of the most basic human needs when most of the surviving remnant of humanity is on starships on a long voyage in deep space, and how a simple act of sabotage can potentially be deadly.
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Just wait until season 2's waste disposal episode!
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Since they seem to like short, pithy titles, I assume it is simply called "Poop."
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Close, it's "Shit's going out the airlock"
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I don't beleive you. Space Mormons don't use such coarse language.
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Since they seem to like short, pithy titles, I assume it is simply called "Poop."
Close - Space Poop.
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:frak:
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Well, almost done with season one. Hand of God was awesome. From looking at the episode descriptions, it looks like they're going to go toe-to-toe with a basestar in the season finale. Since they're the "good guys," I'm sure they'll win. But Hand of God painted a picture that, even though they won a major battle, the humans' attack forces are so depleted that I almost don't even see how the series can continue if there are any actual "fights" involved.
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Without spoiling it, the issue of combat losses and replacements gets addressed in a big way in season 2.
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Without spoiling it, the issue of combat losses and replacements gets addressed in a big way in season 2.
Well, it would HAVE TO, unless the writers just buried their heads in the sand and had a never-ending stream of new vipers and pilots appear out of nowhere whenver needed. :lol
I'm assuming part of the solution is that they run into another battlestar in hiding. I accidentally stumbled upon that fact somewhere awhile back when I was looking for information about the series and deciding whether to watch it. That happened in the '80s series as well, so it wasn't a huge spoiler. It seems pretty random and unlikely given that the Galactica is just out there in unknown space, but I assume it'll be written well enough that it's somewhat believable. If there's some other solution to the issue as well, that's cool too.
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So I just started watching this show on Netflix and I came up with a Gaius Baltar Crying Drinking Game. One shot if he tears up, two if his voice starts getting all high pitched, and a handle pull if tears start falling. Feel free to add, I'm only 6 episodes in so I'm still a noob.
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Well, only two episodes to go, and then I'm on to Season 2. Pretty excited for it, actually. I plan on picking it up later this week.
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Well, only two episodes to go, and then I'm on to Season 2. Pretty excited for it, actually. I plan on picking it up later this week.
I had a great time going through all of Battlestar last year. Things slow down slightly in Season 3 and 4, but the ending is definitely worth sticking with it through the ups and downs.
Don't forget about the movie you're supposed to watch between S2 and S3!
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Razor? It's actually suppose to be in the second season. Set after episode 17 but before the season finale.
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Really? It comes with the Season 4 box set.
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Really? It comes with the Season 4 box set.
I know. But it still suppose to be there, as a backstory to the Pegasus, though it also sets up a storyline that gets resolved in the 4th season.
Universal requested they do a TV spinoff movie that could be quickly release in DVD and the writers best idea was that.
I mean, you don't have to watch it now, but chronologically it's suppose to happen in the second season.
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There's also The Plan which parts of the story from other viewpoints. But I never got around to that.
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But The Plan can only be view after you finish the series.
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But The Plan can only be view after you finish the series.
I will keep that in mind. *excite*
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Razor should be watched after the third season. The chronology of the story matters less than the chronology of production.
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In the DVD set, it's disk #1 of season 4, so that makes sense.
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Razor should be watched after the third season. The chronology of the story matters less than the chronology of production.
:huh: Following the chronology of the story places it a couple episodes before the Season 2 finale. It was originally aired between Season 3 and 4, which is why it is included in the Season 4 set. I would watch it right after "The Captain's Hand".
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Even though it fits chronologically in season 2 doesn't necessarily mean that's when it should be watched. For instance, if it contains spoilers of anything in the season 2 finale or in season 3, I wouldn't want to watch it earlier than when it was intended to be watched.
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Even though it fits chronologically in season 2 doesn't necessarily mean that's when it should be watched. For instance, if it contains spoilers of anything in the season 2 finale or in season 3, I wouldn't want to watch it earlier than when it was intended to be watched.
It doesn't. There's a line to something that becomes pertinent on the end 3rd season, gets resolve in the 4th but there's no spoilers or anything about the season 2 finale.
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I would still watch it as a bridge between the seasons. Watching it chronologically does spoil the affect it has following the season finale.
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Well, that's the order they are in the box sets, so that's the order I plan on watching them in anyway. Need to watch the season 1 finale (probably this weekend), and then on to season 2.
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I agree with Bosky, it makes most sense to watch them in the order they were aired and made available.
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One more S1 episode to go, which will probably be tonight. :caffeine: As planned, I picked up 2.0 and 2.5 yesterday on my way back from a client meeting out of town (there is a used music/video shop about halfway that has REALLY good deals on video especially. I originally picked up S1 for $9.95 there a few months back. Yeterday, I got 2.0 for $9.95 and 2.5 for $14.95). Looks like I am set for awhile. I guess I should probably have just picked up S3 as well while I was there. Not sure why I didn't. Oh well. :number6:
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Make sure you catch the webisodes as they were aired, too. They're not clearly advertised as to when to watch them on the boxsets. There was one set leading up to season 3, which is a special somewhere in the boxset. There was also a set between 4 and 4.5 which is not on the boxsets due to studio heads getting pissy about paying for content not aired on tv (or something).
There were also webisodes related to Razor, but it was just deleted scenes mixed with some that made the final cut. Skip those or wait until after Razor. They were kind of odd, in how they did it, and spoilerish for Razor. It was as if they had extra film and used it for hype, rather than the two mentioned above which were planned out for specific storytelling purposes in relation to the series.
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Cool.
There's one thing that's driving me nuts, and please don't give away any spoilers, but I just need to vent. As of right now, I have figured out three possibilities for the version of Number 6 that haunts Baltar. Either (1) she is a figment of his imagination, (2) she truly implanted something in him that allows her to project herself into his consciousness, or (3) she is a vision sent to him by the god of the Cylons. At fist, I only considered the first two possibilities. Hand of God made me think that #3 is also possible, however. There may also be other possibilities I haven't thought of, but those 3 seem the most likely. But here's the thing: Sometimes she tells him things he probably couldn't know, which seems to rule out her simply being a figment of his borderline psychotic imagination. But other times, she is dead wrong. For example, she says the Cylon detector doesn't really do anything. Clearly it does. It revealed the first guy that they left on the weapons depo space station. And it later showed positive for Boomer. Clearly, it works. So she is clearly wrong (or is lying to Baltar, but that would make no sense in the context of the Cylon detector). So I am completely spinning my wheels trying to figure out her deal. I suspect it is never revealed, and we are meant to keep guessing all the way through the series. ...which is fine, but is also frustrating, so I just had to vent.
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It's supposed to bother you. :tup
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I know. It's pretty genius writing actually that they so prominently feature a plot device that is intentionally designed to unanimously piss off the entire viewership, while also being a primary reason a lot of the viewership tune in in the first place.
Just answer me this: Do they ever really give you enough by the end of the show to be pretty confident of what she is?
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Yes.
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Do they ever really give you enough by the end of the show to be pretty confident of what she is?
Yes.
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Yes, although in a way that allows some extent of interpretation.
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Yes, in a way that pisses me the fuck off.
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After 4 yes answers I think we can all just shut up about it before we start dropping serious hints on bosk1. :lol
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Make sure you catch the webisodes as they were aired, too. They're not clearly advertised as to when to watch them on the boxsets. There was one set leading up to season 3, which is a special somewhere in the boxset. There was also a set between 4 and 4.5 which is not on the boxsets due to studio heads getting pissy about paying for content not aired on tv (or something).
There were also webisodes related to Razor, but it was just deleted scenes mixed with some that made the final cut. Skip those or wait until after Razor. They were kind of odd, in how they did it, and spoilerish for Razor. It was as if they had extra film and used it for hype, rather than the two mentioned above which were planned out for specific storytelling purposes in relation to the series.
If he picks up Razor with the season 4 boxset it includes a version of Razor with those webisodes thrown in.
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If he picks up Razor with the season 4 boxset it includes a version of Razor with those webisodes thrown in.
Yeah, that's what I've got.
So, watched the S1 finale. Mind blown.
4 episodes into S2 (Mrs. bosk1 has become a huge fan and is almost more enthusiastic about watching it than I am), mind blown repeatedly. And given that this is sci-fi, and that it is a redo of Battlestar Frikkin' Galactica, it's good that they are finally putting a lot more focus on actually doing stuff with centurions. I was kinda bummed that pretty much all they seemed to do for most of S1 was stand around looking menacing while the more "human" looking models actually did stuff (aside from chasing Helo and "Boomer" around Caprica City).
I really hate Tigh now. I was starting to like him until his wife showed up. He is a very well-written character, but one that it is just impossible to like after seeing such deep and despicable character flaws on display since Ellen appeared and Adama Sr. went down. It wouldn't surprise me if the writers somewhat redeem him at some point, but for now, I really can't stand his character.
In case it wasn't obvious, here's where I am in the story (I am assuming it is hard to keep track of what happened when if you have seen the whole thing and aren't following along with me): Things seemed at an all-time high with the discovery of Kobol and the destruction of a basestar. Then things rapidly went WAY downhill. Adama was shot and in critical condition, Tigh took control and declared martial law, Roslyn and Appollo were locked in the brig, a group of centurions ravaged the Galactica, etc. So, Roslyn and Appollo got off the Galactica and reluctantly joined forces with Zarek. Adama woke up and is presumably about to re-take command. What's left of the crew on Kobol were rescued, and the Galactica version of No. 8 (Boomer) was shot and "died" in Tyrol's arms (this is up there in the running for all-time dumbest moves of any Galactica character). Helo and Starbuck joined forces with some rebels on Caprica after being on the run when the Caprica version of Boomer took off with Starbuck's raider. I'm assuming Starbuck still has the arrow, but the fact that they haven't shown it makes me uneasy--I wish they would hurry up and resolve this issue. Anyhow, I think that's mostly it. Oh, and I'm wondering whether there is any relevance to Boomer's comment that there are 8 Cylon agents in the fleet. Where I am going with that is that, since there are supposedly 12 models, and we know what 4 look like (Nos. 2, 5, 6, and 8). So this could mean there is one copy of each of the remaining 12 models somewhere in the fleet. ...or it could just be a red herring.
Anyhow...
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:lol The question you asked at the end is one the single most discussed issues in fandom. They played it up big time in hyping the show. It made sense, always keeping their options open while driving up speculation/paranoia.
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:lol The question you asked at the end is one the single most discussed issues in fandom. They played it up big time in hyping the show. It made sense, always keeping their options open while driving up speculation/paranoia.
You mean about the remaining 8? Yeah, makes sense. I just can't help but wonder whether we have actually seen who some of the remaining agents are and just don't realize that they are actually agents, or if they are all new characters that have not yet been introduced. Probably a mix of both, I assume. It wouldn't surprise me if there were a couple of "whoa! THAT GUY/GIRL is a Cylon?? Now way! I never saw that coming!" moments in store. But probably some new characters as well. I love how they drop little hints throughout that constantly have you guessing about whether certain people are or aren't.
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Hard to say much without giving suggestions to how things play out, but I'm looking forward to your reactions regarding the issue.
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Yeah, we cannot talk about the remaining 8 without inducing spoilers.
But regarding Tigh, as he said to Adama, if you don't hate the XO then he's not doing his job! Even with his flaws, I fucking love Tigh! But I actually like pretty much all the characters except for Helo and another character that hasn't made an appearance in the episodes you've seen.
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Tigh is the best.
Except for season four. But we don't speak of that.
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But regarding Tigh, as he said to Adama, if you don't hate the XO then he's not doing his job!
In real life, this is true, for the most part. But it shouldn't be true for the reasons that I hate Tigh. If you are a miltary guy, you should hate the XO because he is the "bad cop" who executes on all the stuff that makes the military unit run like the well-oiled "machine" that it needs to be. You shouldn't hate the XO because he is a blind tyrant who has poor leadership skills.
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Make sure you catch the webisodes as they were aired, too. They're not clearly advertised as to when to watch them on the boxsets. There was one set leading up to season 3, which is a special somewhere in the boxset. There was also a set between 4 and 4.5 which is not on the boxsets due to studio heads getting pissy about paying for content not aired on tv (or something).
There were also webisodes related to Razor, but it was just deleted scenes mixed with some that made the final cut. Skip those or wait until after Razor. They were kind of odd, in how they did it, and spoilerish for Razor. It was as if they had extra film and used it for hype, rather than the two mentioned above which were planned out for specific storytelling purposes in relation to the series.
If he picks up Razor with the season 4 boxset it includes a version of Razor with those webisodes thrown in.
That's the unrated extended edition, which still does not include all of the content found in the webisodes.
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Make sure you catch the webisodes as they were aired, too. They're not clearly advertised as to when to watch them on the boxsets. There was one set leading up to season 3, which is a special somewhere in the boxset. There was also a set between 4 and 4.5 which is not on the boxsets due to studio heads getting pissy about paying for content not aired on tv (or something).
There were also webisodes related to Razor, but it was just deleted scenes mixed with some that made the final cut. Skip those or wait until after Razor. They were kind of odd, in how they did it, and spoilerish for Razor. It was as if they had extra film and used it for hype, rather than the two mentioned above which were planned out for specific storytelling purposes in relation to the series.
If he picks up Razor with the season 4 boxset it includes a version of Razor with those webisodes thrown in.
That's the unrated extended edition, which still does not include all of the content found in the webisodes.
Well I didn't know that. I own the version that came with the Blu-ray complete series box set, so I guess it's the same one.
This series on Blu-ray looks just completely stunning, by the way.
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This has been bothering me all day. In doing a quick Google search to find some of the information in my above post, I stumbled upon something I didn't want to see. I have a hard time fathoming how it could be true, but given the source, it must be. Stupid, stupid bosk. :facepalm:
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I can pretty much guess what it relates to and why would you do that?!?!
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Very stupid bosk1. Keep in mind, they didn't know who the 8 were at the point you are in the series. ...and I'm glad I saw the series as it unfolded, avoiding spoilers can be very hard.
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I can pretty much guess what it relates to and why would you do that?!?!
I was trying to look up Boomer's model number because I had forgotten it. Should have been fine, since I was just doing a word search in the article I found so that I could zoom right in on that info without reading the whole thing. I wasn't counting on there being pictures. :lolpalm:
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Number 8! You should have asked here first! :lol
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I KNOW BUT I WAS TRYING TO SOUND ALL SMART AND IMPRESSIVE IN MY POST BY KNOWING THAT!
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You could have just watched the episode where she's called "number ??".
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Not while I'm at work and trying to just type a quick post.
But, fine. Here's the deal. If it actually turns out to be true, then when it is finally revealed, I'll act all surprised, okay?
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It would be amusing if what you saw was wrong. Just about every character was speculated to be cylon as people tried to figure it out. I'm guessing this is going to be a total mindfuck for you for awhile, though. :lol
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Look up nothing BSG related on the internet. It's all laced with spoilers.
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It would be amusing if what you saw was wrong. Just about every character was speculated to be cylon as people tried to figure it out. I'm guessing this is going to be a total mindfuck for you for awhile, though. :lol
Yeah, I hope it's wrong as well. I still don't even see how it is even possible. But it was on battlestarwiki, so I'm thinking chances are, it's not wrong. :( I really was trying to avoid spoilers too, and knowing the risks of looking online, I've been pretty careful. Again, I just ctrl+F'd to scroll right to what I was looking for. If it wasn't for the pics, I would have been fine. Oh well.
And, Reap, I got your PM. Not sure how you could do what you are proposing without spoiling even more, but thanks.
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Look up nothing BSG related on the internet. It's all laced with spoilers.
Truth. :lol
I really hate Tigh now. I was starting to like him until his wife showed up. He is a very well-written character, but one that it is just impossible to like after seeing such deep and despicable character flaws on display since Ellen appeared and Adama Sr. went down. It wouldn't surprise me if the writers somewhat redeem him at some point, but for now, I really can't stand his character.
I'd say something, but that would spoiler you even further. Suffice to say that, yeah, Tigh's behavior with Ellen around is reprehensible but I still LOVE the character. I had SUCH a love/hate relationship with Tigh through the whole series, but honestly? The writing was so stellar on BSG that I couldn't HELP but love him.
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And, Reap, I got your PM. Not sure how you could do what you are proposing without spoiling even more, but thanks.
I know the series way too well. And I'm a genius.
EDIT: Also, I had something semi-important spoiled for me ahead of time and it basically didn't matter, because I didn't know how the thing I saw happened.
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PM sent. Probably best if you don't respond, but...oh well.
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Don't respond Reap, no good can come of it. :lol
On Tigh, though, he is my favourite character on the show. Tough to really like him, but the character is easy to love.
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On Tigh, though, he is my favourite character on the show. Tough to really like him, but the character is easy to love.
While I don't think he's my favorite, I definitely came to love the character very much.
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Who were your favourites (assuming no spoilers for bosk1)? I think Tigh and Baltar were my two favourites overall.
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Baltar was a great character. However my favorite character is someone that (it seems) everyone else doesn't like very much. And in case Bosk has not encountered the character yet, because I forgot when they show up, I will not name them.
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Jumble all the letters but the initials. ootrs miad ???
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Jumble all the letters but the initials. ootrs miad ???
I'm sorry, I am not very good at decryption, so I have no clue who Ootrs Maid is, especially since it's probably a character that I can't remember at the very moment.
I could I guess write it in tiny font. Bosk, is that okay with you? Knowing my luck you're probably already familiar with this person and this is all for naught.
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y(ootrs) A(miad)
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Adama - In a strange way, I respect and admire this character.
Tigh - Probably the most rewarding character.
Lee - I like Lee, I cared about Lee, but he was never one of my favorites.
Starbuck - Ooohhhh..... Starbuck......... Sorry.
Baltar - Maybe the most relatable character. Fascinating. Goes to the most interesting emotional places.
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y(ootrs) A(miad)
Well that makes more sense. I didn't know we were to leave out the initials.
Sure I'll give that a try.
rhaon naohtg.
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Yeah, that character had some real highlights for good while. They certainly had a tough lot to deal with, very easy to sympathize with. There were likely points during the series where that character was in my top two, just not overall.
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I feel bad for Bosk. He has yet to see the glory that is terohr ialv yet.
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I also quite liked Leoben.
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I feel bad for Bosk. He has yet to see the glory that is terohr ialv yet.
Soon, though, very soon. :) Those first few scenes involving terohr ialv are always really easy for me to picture, very well done.
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:lolpalm:
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I hate anagrams, I must know who you guys are talking about but I'm really bad with them!
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Terohr Ailv! TEROHR AILV!!!
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Terohr Ailv! TEROHR AILV!!!
I don't mean to sound rude, but unless I am very confused.....shouldn't that be Terahr Ailv?
Edit: Nevermind, Yorost cleared it up. Thank you Yorost.
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I must be very tired, because I was able to figure out Adami's one but not this one.
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I must be very tired, because I was able to figure out Adami's one but not this one.
I would suggest just focusing on the last name.
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I must be very tired, because I was able to figure out Adami's one but not this one.
This exactly.
Who were your favourites (assuming no spoilers for bosk1)? I think Tigh and Baltar were my two favourites overall.
Adama
Tigh
Starbuck
Baltar
Six
Leoben
I also quite liked Leoben.
Me too.
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Ah, Terorh Ailv is awesome indeed.
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Wow, so...Simon. Interesting character. They didn't even really try to hide that he was a Cylon. What exactly did they do to Starbuck while she was drugged up that gave her that extra scar? Hmm... Well, at least we now know she does in fact have the arrow and has a means of getting back to the fleet. But there are a few flaws I see in the plan to return. First off, why not go back and pick up the raider from wherever Sharon left it? They may need it for future use. Starbuck could fly the raider back and Sharon and Helo could fly the bigger craft that Sharon retreived. Second, they know Sharon is a Cylong. But they are bringing her into the fleet. How exactly is that going to work? Especially after another copy of her model already tried to take out Adama, thereby plunging the fleet into chaos.
You know, for that matter, the plan to return to earth is somewhat flawed as well. Or at the very least, there are unanswered questions. What if the humans there don't want company--especially company that may likely be followed by a race of machines with the capability of nuclear annihilation of a planet's population? What if they have nuked each other and rendered earth uninhabitable? What if the Cylons follow and the people of earth don't have the technological means of defending themselves? What if the Cylons have already gotten there? After all, by now, they know that's where the fleet are hoping to go. And they probably knew it LONG before they even launched the attack. What with the whole "this has all happened before and will all happen again" prophecy, the Cylons probably not only know where earth is, but have chased humans there in times past. So, yeah, it seems there are a lot of VERY important unanswered questions to be answered/dealt with if the colonials are smart. Not like they have better options, since pretty much the only other option seems to be just randomly drifting along in space. So I get why going to earth seems like the best option.
Tigh - Probably the most rewarding character.
Here's my beef with Tigh. And a lot of this comes with my military background, but still. As a leader, you DON'T lead simply by bullying others and demanding respect and obedience. A good leader doesn't treat his subordinates as insignificant. And a good leader doesn't hide behind a bottle. Tigh is completely unfit to be the XO of any command, much less a capitol military vessel. He is unfit to lead. And the fact that he is an alcoholic garners him many negative respect points.
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Of course Tigh is completely unfit for his position. He was there because of Adama, hidden in a military being mothballed. The whole situation just brought his unfit nature to the forefront, but humanity is hanging on by a thread and has little choice but to stick with what they have. There's no indication his flaws were widely on display in peace.
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Oh, I get all that. I'm just saying that those flaws prevent me from getting behind him in any real sense.
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Regarding your first point about Sharon, Starbuck and Helo... keep watching.
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Regarding your first point about Sharon, Starbuck and Helo... keep watching.
Oh, I'm sure. That HAS TO be dealt with in the next few episodes. I'm just kind of "laughing" out loud at the obvious flaws in the plan. But the more minor point of not bringing back the raider was also a flaw in their plan that could easily have been remedied. Again, minor point, but I can't help but wonder whether Adama or Tigh will be angry about that. Well, then again, just thinking out loud here, but they may not really have the chance to do anything about that anyway, I suppose. I mean, as of right now, only part of the fleet that is following Roslyn is at Kobol. The Galactica is off at the rally point with the rest of the fleet. Starbuck is going to go back to Kobol and is likely going to go straight to the president. Upon learning that the fleet has at least temporarily split into factions, her loyalty will be tested, and I am assuming she will at least temporarily side with Roslyn despite her military background. Of course, I guess it's possible that a monkey wrench could get thrown in if Boomer knows through her Cylon connections that the rest of the fleet is at the rally point and she chooses to lead Starbuck and Helo there for some reason. Hmm...
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Regarding your first point about Sharon, Starbuck and Helo... keep watching.
Oh, I'm sure. That HAS TO be dealt with in the next few episodes. I'm just kind of "laughing" out loud at the obvious flaws in the plan. But the more minor point of not bringing back the raider was also a flaw in their plan that could easily have been remedied. Again, minor point, but I can't help but wonder whether Adama or Tigh will be angry about that. Well, then again, just thinking out loud here, but they may not really have the chance to do anything about that anyway, I suppose. I mean, as of right now, only part of the fleet that is following Roslyn is at Kobol. The Galactica is off at the rally point with the rest of the fleet. Starbuck is going to go back to Kobol and is likely going to go straight to the president. Upon learning that the fleet has at least temporarily split into factions, her loyalty will be tested, and I am assuming she will at least temporarily side with Roslyn despite her military background. Of course, I guess it's possible that a monkey wrench could get thrown in if Boomer knows through her Cylon connections that the rest of the fleet is at the rally point and she chooses to lead Starbuck and Helo there for some reason. Hmm...
Nuggetz
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Heh. No more new eposides until this w/e, most likely, as I have to prep. for a presentation at a meeting tomorrow morning, which means I'll likely be up late tonight.
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Wow. So...Pegagsus. Cain. Another iteration of Number 6. Interesting times aboard the fleet. I just finished Pegasus pt. 1. Haven't watched pt. 2 yet. So Chief and Helo have been court martialled and are scheduled to be executed, and Adama is disobeying orders to get them back. If not for the fact that I am sure Cain will continue as a character, it's tempting to speculate that her XO might whip out her service weapon and put a bullet in her head, as he told Tigh that she did to the former XO. That would be awesome, and since I hate her, it would be fitting. But I'm pretty sure it ain't gonna happen. Anyhow...
So, Cylon count so far. Here's who we know:
-No. 2: (Leoben) No copies in the fleet right now, at least that we know of. Last one was flushed out the airlock by Roslyn.
-No. 3 (D'Anna Biers): Not sure if the copy watching the "Galactica documentary" with the No. 5 and No. 6 copies was the same copy that was in the fleet or not, but we have now seen 1 or 2 copies of her. However, the humans don't yet know she is a Cylon. I wonder what fate awaits her in the story.
-No. 4 (Simon): 2 copies were shown in Caprica; both were killed.
-No. 5: (Doral) Again, none in the fleet as far as we know, but at least one other copy makes regular appearances in monitoring progress with "the plan," whatever it is.
-No. 6: Yeah...
-No. 8: (Sharon) Just unleashed a virus that incapacitated the Cylon attack force that was coming after the fleet and helped disable the virus that was trying to take over Galactica. The Lt. from Pegasus who tried to interrogate her was just killed by Chief and Helo, making for interesting times. She seems to be a very diverse model with lots of different personalities.
So, 6 revealed so far; 6 (or maybe more?) to go. The stuff going on right now with Pegasus joining the fleet (or, as Cain would likely see it instead, the fleet joining Pegasus) seems like it is going to bring some things to a head, which may very likely mean more revelations soon. Can't wait. I'm looking forward to seeing how the Pegasus vs. Galactica power struggle turns out. Since Roslyn is the president, and assuming the fictitious Colonial governmen functions similarly to our own, in which case Roslyn is Commander In Chief of the military, I would love it if she ended the whole conflict by simply promoting Adama and appointing him fleet admiral so that he would outrank Cain. And while we're talking about Adama, I also can't help but come back to The Note. I really hope it is eventually revealed who left him the note and why rather than it just being a loose end that gets dropped rather than tied up. I have a feeling it will be resolved eventually. But it's interesting that the show has been silent about it. Since it was revealed that there are 12 models, I have been obsessing about keeping track of how many have been revealed and what we know about them. It seems odd that Adama has not done the same. I would expect him to be keeping his own talley and trying to investigate what other models could be lurking out there in the fleet. Oh well. I'm sure more is coming soon...
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Controversial (I assume) opinion: Cain is the series' best character.
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The Pegasus arc is one of the best parts of the series. One of the toughest balances the show had to maintain was the balance between cool/intriguing/exciting sci-fi concepts and a sense of maturity and seriousness given the issues it wanted to tackle. Pegasus pulls this off almost perfectly.
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Controversial (I assume) opinion: Cain is the series' best character.
Hate her. She's the epitome of the hard-charging, all guts no brains cardboard cutout military commander.
But as for the Pegasus arc, I'm looking forward to seeing the Pegasus and Galactica tear it up on some big mission. It's fairly obvious to me what the big ship probably is in the Cylon fleet they have been following. If they knock it out, and if it is a one-of-a-kind, that could be a serious turning point in the war.
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Just keep watching.......the Pegasus arc is my favorite in the entire series
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Just keep watching...
Oh, okay. That actually hadn't occurred to me, but now that you mention it, I think I will. Thanks. :tup
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I loved the Pegasus arc!
Also, do you mind if we tell you Simon's and Biers' model number? I mean it's not that big of a deal what they're number is.
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No, that's fine. I want to know, but just don't want to make the same mistake I made last time. :lol
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Deanna is 3 and Simon 4.
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Cool. Edited my post above.
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All of this is really making me want to watch the show again.
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All of this is really making me want to watch the show again.
Same here. And since I already bought them all, maybe I might.
Also, I think the entire series wound up being like $60 combined for me. Gotta love Amazon.
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Yeah, I got it cheap as well. I've spent $35 for seasons 1 and 2. The place I got it from has all of season 3 pretty cheap as well. And my boss loaned me season 4, so that's free.
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I'm bored. Tempted to just say "screw it" and log onto BSGwiki and read the entire site.
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Don't do it! Resist!
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Noooo, you'll regret it big time! Don't spoiler yourself!
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I'm bored. Tempted to just say "screw it" and log onto BSGwiki and read the entire site.
Terrible idea.
Don't give in!
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That's a great idea bosk! Do it AFTER you finish the show!
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To ditto what all the others are saying, after the show's finished there will still be a number of things you'll wish they went into more detail about. So, yeah, do it then!
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On the other hand, he might feel no need to watch the fourth season and thus spare himself!
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:lol Don't worry. I didn't spoil it. But I did watch through Resurrection 1 and 2. So, yup--It was a resurrection ship. I thought it might be. I wonder how many more of those are floating around out there. If that was the only one, what a MAJOR turning point in the war. There were a lot of really cool things in this story arc. It was satisfying that Cain got what she deserved, but that both she and Adama redeemed themselves by calling of their hits at the last second. It's also nice that Roslyn promoted Adama. I like Cain's former XO, and the new commander of the Pegasus. Seems like a VERY likeable character.
Things I didn't like:
Lee really needs to figure himself out. Yeah, he's a complex character, and he has been through a lot that completely justifies his emotional reactions. But he still just nees to square himself away and get a handle on things.
Unless there is some sort of explanation later, there are HUGE writing errors surrounding the attack on the Cylon fleet. First off, the Galactica had never been able to go toe-to-toe with another base star for anything more than a minute or two just to buy time for the fleet to escape. It was completely outclassed in terms of weapons, as has been said multiple times. But suddenly, all that is brushed aside just because we now have another battlestar alongside. Two battlestars against two base stars+... If the Colonials were going to win that fight, there needed to be more explanation for how. Second, the reason the entire Colonial military fleet was wiped out was because the Cylons could get inside the computer networks of the newer battlestars, vipers, and other ships. They should have been about to take out the Pegasus and its vipers in short order. If the Pegasus and its attack fighters figured out a workaround, that needed to be explained. Third, raiders. There should have been a ton of them. Given that they were protecting a resurrection ship, I would expect even more than the usual that two base stars could carry. If we assume the large attack force that Sharon disabled back when the Pegasus first showed up was from this fleet (which I think Cain said, although it wasn't entirely clear), I can understand that. But, again, if they were part of a Cylon fleet that included the resurrection ship, there should have been a lot more. For that matter, there should have been more than two base stars assigned to protect it as well. And at the very least, the Cylons should have called for backup back when that huge group of raiders was wiped out. The battle was just too easy, and while there could be good explanations for why things played out as they did, those explanations were not offered. I have come to expect better writing from this show, and they didn't deliver that here. This is one of the reasons that, while this is a very good show and is largely well-written and intensely interesting, I doubt it will surpass The Sarah Connor Chronicles as my favorite sci-fi series.
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The Pegasus has also had time to combat the computer issues, though. I can't remember details, but wasn't it basically explained that the issue was something they could remedy? Remember the initial attack was extremely coordinated, too, it wasn't just cylons showing up and eliminating the computer systems, it took years of setup and planting code.
Spoilers, though I think this has been explained in the series already(maybe it was Razor, though), bosk1: The Pegasus was docked when the Cylons attacked, and either the infected code had not been installed yet or it was offline, allowing the Pegasus to make an emergency escape. Hence, the conscripted crew and functioning ship.
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It's also worth noting that the Galactica is OLD. First Cylon War, getting ready to retire kind of old, whereas the Pegasus was newer, better armed, and more capable. It's like a World War II era battleship suddenly getting back up from an ultramodern ship. Throw in a decent amount of surprise and it becomes a fair fight.
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Lee really needs to figure himself out. Yeah, he's a complex character, and he has been through a lot that completely justifies his emotional reactions. But he still just nees to square himself away and get a handle on things.
Hahahahahahahahaha
Unless there is some sort of explanation later, there are HUGE writing errors surrounding the attack on the Cylon fleet. First off, the Galactica had never been able to go toe-to-toe with another base star for anything more than a minute or two just to buy time for the fleet to escape. It was completely outclassed in terms of weapons, as has been said multiple times. But suddenly, all that is brushed aside just because we now have another battlestar alongside. Two battlestars against two base stars+... If the Colonials were going to win that fight, there needed to be more explanation for how.
The Pegasus basically carried the battle because it's newer and way more powerful than the Galactica. When Lee's looking at the battle, you can see that the Pegasus is taking almost all the fire from both Basestars. Galactica's taking some damage from one of them, but is shielded from the other one because Pegasus is in the way.
Second, the reason the entire Colonial military fleet was wiped out was because the Cylons could get inside the computer networks of the newer battlestars, vipers, and other ships. They should have been about to take out the Pegasus and its vipers in short order. If the Pegasus and its attack fighters figured out a workaround, that needed to be explained.
It's explained. It's not much of a spoiler if you want to know.
Third, raiders. There should have been a ton of them. Given that they were protecting a resurrection ship, I would expect even more than the usual that two base stars could carry. If we assume the large attack force that Sharon disabled back when the Pegasus first showed up was from this fleet (which I think Cain said, although it wasn't entirely clear), I can understand that. But, again, if they were part of a Cylon fleet that included the resurrection ship, there should have been a lot more.
They talk about how they use the decoy convoy to draw the Raiders off. But then why wouldn't the Raiders jump back to the attack? You see a few around the Resurrection Ship, but not as many as you'd think. Somewhat suspect.
For that matter, there should have been more than two base stars assigned to protect it as well.
Agreed.
My one unofficial BSG theory is that there simply aren't very many Basestars. Aside from the fact you never see that many, it would help the entire show make a lot more sense.
And at the very least, the Cylons should have called for backup back when that huge group of raiders was wiped out.
Can't argue.
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Third, raiders. There should have been a ton of them. Given that they were protecting a resurrection ship, I would expect even more than the usual that two base stars could carry. If we assume the large attack force that Sharon disabled back when the Pegasus first showed up was from this fleet (which I think Cain said, although it wasn't entirely clear), I can understand that. But, again, if they were part of a Cylon fleet that included the resurrection ship, there should have been a lot more.
They talk about how they use the decoy convoy to draw the Raiders off. But then why wouldn't the Raiders jump back to the attack? You see a few around the Resurrection Ship, but not as many as you'd think. Somewhat suspect.
And at the very least, the Cylons should have called for backup back when that huge group of raiders was wiped out.
Can't argue.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but faster-than-light communication is either non-existent or at least poses a problem in BSG. Once raiders jump away they cannot be told to come back without something going to fetch them.
For that matter, there should have been more than two base stars assigned to protect it as well.
Agreed.
My one unofficial BSG theory is that there simply aren't very many Basestars. Aside from the fact you never see that many, it would help the entire show make a lot more sense.
Always my impression that captiol ships are rare in BSG.
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However the got around the issue, it just needed to be explained. And maybe they do get into it more in Razor. But remember, in terms of the release chronology, Razor doesn't exist yet at the time of Pegasus, Res. 1, and Res. 2. Chronologically, it does. But in terms of what the viewership (including me, since I am watching in release order) would have seen and had access to, it doesn't. So, again, I'm watching it thinking, "Okay, it's been drilled into my head that (1) base star >>> battle star; (2) Cylon computer virus >>> any Colonial military vessel other than the Galactica because (a) its computer systems are not networked and (b) they are ancient; and (3) LOTS AND LOTS AND LOTS AND LOTS of raiders, probably a lot of which have nukes. But...now that Pegasus has arrived on scene, I'm supposed to forget all that and just believe they can take on and summarily whoop up on a Cylon fleet containing, among other things, two base stars. Okay..." It just seems like shoddy writing full of either continuity errors or missed opportunities to educate the audience as to why things played out differently in this battle.
Oh, and one other thing that kinda bugged me that I forgot to mention above: I'm making an assumption here that either this is the ONLY resurrection ship, or at least, there aren't very many of them. To assume otherwise wouldn't seem to make sense given how both version of No. 6 were acting given the news of this one being destroyed. So with that assumption comes the assumption that bodies for MOST if not ALL 12 Cylon models should be aboard. Given that, it seems like a strage and dumb coincidence that the only model Starbuck managed to get photos of during her recon mission was No. 6. Then again, maybe that's the point. I dunno. Maybe I'm off base here and there are actually a LOT of resurrection ships. Maybe each one only carries one model number, and the entire reason the two No. 6's were so upset was simply because this was the No. 6 resurrection ship. I guess that would make sense. In which case, I guess this latest rant is pointless. I guess I'll just have to wait and see...
EDIT: Thanks, Reap. Don't give the spoilers away, even if they are small. I'm just posting these rants because it is fun for me, and I am assuming it is fun for others who have seen the entire series to read them as well. But if things are later explained, I'll just wait for it.
Some explanations may also have been set up in the Pegasus extended episode, which I haven't watched yet. The cut episode is at the end of the last S2 disk. I watched that, not realizing that the extended eposide is at the beginning of the first S2.5 disk. I wasn't in the mood to rewatch the same episode all over again with the extra scenes, since they had built up to so many unresolved conflicts in Res1 and Res2. So I had to go forward and watch those first.
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I thought strong hints at the explanation for Pegasus were given almost immediately upon it's arrival in the show. At the very least they made it clear there were unusual circumstances involved. A one-shot comic they released at the time went into great detail about the origins of the Pegasus, but it was just fleshing out a full story to go along with what the show indicated happened.
The resurrection ship is not the only means of resurrection, think of it as needing to have a 3G signal to use data on your phone. Remember Leoban being ejected into space? He didn't know if he would survive because he didn't know if he was in range. As for other models, you'll see.
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It's Friday. And that means BSG tonight! :woot:
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:sosayweall:
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Welp, wife went out of town to visit her dad, and I didn't want to get too far ahead without her, so my BSG viewing was less than what I expected. :( Went back and watched the extended version of Pegasus. The extra scenes were good, but didn't add a whole lot beyond the extended opening scene with Starbuck lobbying hard to go back to Caprica.
Watched the next episode, Epiphanies, as well. Baltar is such a tool. Can't believe he gave a nuclear warhead to a Cylon. Idiot.
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Are you prejudiced against Cylons or something?
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Yes.
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Shame.
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Toaster lover.
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[spoilers]
spoilers
[/spoilers]
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:omg:
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Some of them are hot.
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:lol
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Toaster lover.
"So tell me what you're offering again?"
"Well, virtually all of humanity is going to die. And what remains will be chased around the galaxy by a group of murderous robots. Every day of your existence will be spent not only fearing your own death, but fearing that your betrayal of the human race will be discovered. You will have relative luxury in your life, but nothing compared to what you have now. You'll soon truly find out what you're willing to eat when your survival is on the line. At certain moments, you'll see things that make you wonder if living through the experience was worth the scars in your memory. You might not ever have a day of peace again."
"But....."
"This woman will be all over you with you every day:
(https://media.battlestarwiki.org/images/thumb/f/fe/Season_3_-_Promo_-_AMOS_-_Number_Six.jpg/321px-Season_3_-_Promo_-_AMOS_-_Number_Six.jpg)
She'll give you more sex than you can handle, smart advice, constant ego stroking, and the occasional frightening but sexy (because it's a bit frightening) moment of being domineering."
"...
So you're saying not every human is going to be killed..."
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[spoilers]
spoilers
[/spoilers]
:rollin
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If Cylon blood really did cure cancer, I might be in favor of making a couple of them. So I guess that means Roslyn isn't going to die. Part of me is glad, because she is easily one of my favorite characters. However, part of me isn't sure, because part of what makes me like her character is how she handled her own struggle to face her mortality.
Once she recovers a bit more, I am curious as to whether she will remember the parts of her flashbacks where she saw Baltar and No. 6 together. If so, I'm VERY curious to see what comes of it.
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:-X
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Yeah, I know. :lol
And in response to Reap's post, for the record, I don't really find her attractive. There's just something about her that seems a bit...offputting. Although her "librarian" look (when her hair is straightened and pulled back in a pony tail) ain't bad.
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I'm all for loving those toasters.
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I'm all for loving those toasters.
:zydar:
:sosayweall: !
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My Galactica viewing has tailed off a bit lately, but I'm back now. Had to rewatch Epiphanies with the wife since she hadn't seen it. Watched the next two as well: Black Market and Scar. It's kind of nice to be able to step back from huge, fleet-threatening crises for a change and deal with seemingly more "mundane," everyday issues. :lol Interesting developments, to say the least. Baltar is such a freakin' tool. I really wish somebody would catch on to what a danger he is.
I'm also starting to forumulate my own pet theory about the season finale. If there ends up being any kind of truth to it whatsoever, I will revisit this post.
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What did you think of Black Market?
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I'm also starting to forumulate my own pet theory about the season finale. If there ends up being any kind of truth to it whatsoever, I will revisit this post.
Aw, spill it already, we want to be amused!
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My Galactica viewing has tailed off a bit lately, but I'm back now. Had to rewatch Epiphanies with the wife since she hadn't seen it. Watched the next two as well: Black Market and Scar. It's kind of nice to be able to step back from huge, fleet-threatening crises for a change and deal with seemingly more "mundane," everyday issues. :lol Interesting developments, to say the least. Baltar is such a freakin' tool. I really wish somebody would catch on to what a danger he is.
I'm also starting to forumulate my own pet theory about the season finale. If there ends up being any kind of truth to it whatsoever, I will revisit this post.
Yup. At one point, the producers had to decide whether Battlestar was going to be a consistent story that could be wrapped up in a few seasons or something that could theoretically keep going for a long time. Those "step back" episodes were meant to attract new viewers by targeting people flipping through the channels who might give the series a try despite not knowing much of the back story. Since the series ended when it did, they look sort-of like filler now. But I'm happy they're there, as those stand-alone episodes were some of my favorites and some of the best in terms character-development.
Except the ones when the characters are completely out of character... but I'll hold that thought!
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What did you think of Black Market?
Seemed a bit half-baked in terms of setting up a lot of the character motivations for what happened. But, overall, despite some execution flaws, I liked it and thought it was some intereseting social commentary. And despite some of the underdevelopment, it overall did advance the ball somewhat in terms of both Lee's and Zarek's character development.
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Oh, and...
1. Fisk getting killed: :dammitall!: I thought he was going to be a really great character. >:(
2. Scar: Was the Raider that Starbuck previously killed and used a prior iteration of him? Some of the things Boomer said led me to believe it may be likely, and suggested (1) that Scar understandably had a personal vendetta against Starbuck, (2) that Scar and Starbuck share some sort of "spiritual" bond now, or (3) some combination of both. I'm wondering whether this might be conformed or denied, and more fully explored later. It would be interesting to say the least.
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1. Agreed.
2. Yes, it's hinted that Scar was repeatedly resurrected and gained a vendetta against Starbuck earlier in the series. Obviously the point of the hints is to give character, though, so we can safely assume that much is true and doesn't require further confirmation.
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Black Market is, IMO, the worst episode of the series.
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Crap. I just found out they actually pulled the original version of that episode and replaced it with a "special edition" where Phelan shoots first.
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Black Market is, IMO, the worst episode of the series.
Black Market is likable and has some good moment. The Woman King is basically unwatchable.
What did you think of Black Market?
Seemed a bit half-baked in terms of setting up a lot of the character motivations for what happened. But, overall, despite some execution flaws, I liked it and thought it was some intereseting social commentary. And despite some of the underdevelopment, it overall did advance the ball somewhat in terms of both Lee's and Zarek's character development.
In the commentary for the episode, Ron Moore basically trashes it and calls it a failure. I don't remember his explanation for why it didn't come together right. I think it had something to do with it trying to be too many things.
IMO - The emotional center of the episode doesn't come together right. Lee's emotion doesn't feel genuine so much as it feels self-righteous. THis is fine, because that's kind of his character. But the show doesn't treat it that way. The implicit message feels like self-righteous = good. This makes it impossible to buy into anything.
Love him just straight up shooting Phelan though.
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Black Market is, IMO, the worst episode of the series.
Black Market is likable and has some good moment. The Woman King is basically unwatchable.
Ah! That one is horrible as well!
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Black Market is pretty bad, but there are a few upcoming episodes that may equal or surpass it in stinkiness.
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Black Market is pretty bad
No, it's really not.
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I struggle to find anything redeeming about that episode.
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It's okay. We all have personal shortcomings.
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I really like Black Market. Lee gets shit for being written inconsistently. But I always thought that was a defining part of his character. Whereas his Dad is a cool and collected natural leader, Lee's just all over the place trying to find himself in Adama's shadow. He is a loose cannon because he struggles to distinguish himself from pop.
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It's okay. We all have personal shortcomings.
:'(
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I really like Black Market. Lee gets shit for being written inconsistently. But I always thought that was a defining part of his character. Whereas his Dad is a cool and collected natural leader, Lee's just all over the place trying to find himself in Adama's shadow. He is a loose cannon because he struggles to distinguish himself from pop.
I agree.
It's okay. We all have personal shortcomings.
:'(
:hearts:
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"Black Market" is pretty mediocre. There are a couple of very poor choices, both character-wise and plot-wise, and it suffers from the curse of most of the "in the fleet" episodes (in that the producers seemed compelled to introduce action, no matter what the content of the episode was).
But it's not nearly as bad as "The Woman King," which is moronic, condescendingly moralizing, lazy, and completes a certain character's descent into the position of being the unquestionably worst character in the show.
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Black Market and The Woman King were both ok if you're willing to ignore character shifts that felt uncomfortably out of place. With a highly serial format these types of episodes just don't work that well to begin with, but had this been an episodic based show like Star Trek it would have been ok. I tend to view these episodes, and others, as the show-runners pasts with Star Trek showing.
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What was out-of-place about Black Market?
People keep repeating how "out of character" those episodes are. How so?
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Something about Lee seeing a prostitute feels out of place. If he is seeing a prostitute, he doesn't offer them any outside help. The shame would be too powerful.
I'm not sure I buy Tigh participating in the Black Market. Tigh does many things he shouldn't do. The Black Market doesn't feel like one of them.
From a plot perspective - introducing the Black Market so quickly feels like it's sudden. If this group has the power to kill the CO of the Pegasus then... why didn't we know about them earlier?
From a conceptual standpoint, Ron Moore basically explains it perfectly (link (https://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Podcast:Black_Market)):
The best thing in the whole show, in my personal opinion, is the end. Is that Lee shoots him, which was an early idea in the whole episode that you get to that classic moment where Walker, Texas Ranger, or fill in the blank, Sonny Crockett, is pointing the gun at the bad guy and the bad guy says, "You won't shoot me." And, lo and behold, they always find an excuse for the ba- for the good guy to shoot the bad guy.
The bad guy goes for the gun, the bad guy makes a move, there's some double cross and then you always get the satisfaction, the visceral bloodlust of the audience demanding that the bad guy get shot, but never quite being brave enough to just have the hero shoot the bad guy.
Which brings its own set of moral and ethical issues, and if you're gonna- it's sort of like the convention of that method of- that particular story has always been, "The good guy won't shoot the bad guy unless the bad guy threatens him in some way." But it's a complete manipulation 'cause the audience's only interest is to see the bad guy get shot.
But the audience wants to have it both ways. The audience sort of wants to be satisfied and have their bloodlust satisfied in that, "Well, thank God, I got to saw- see Walker, Texas Ranger, shoot this guy, but his hands are clean 'cause the bad guy kinda reached for a gun or he kinda flinched or he double crossed him, and that's why the good guy's still good." And I was interested in subverting that and, "Ok. Let's- you want your bloodlust satisfied? Fine. Hero's gonna shoot the bad guy, but guess what? The hero's just gonna shoot him. He's just gonna execute him. And how do you feel about that?"
'Cause again, that's the territory I'm more interested in, in the show, is presenting more complicated moral dilemmas to the audience. To not giving them the pure, clean comfort of, "Hero shoots bad guy, 'cause bad guy did something bad." But making more complex where, "Thank God. I really wanted hero to shoot bad guy, but I'm not quite entirely comfortable with the way it happened, and how do I feel about that?" That's territory I think the show is better equipped to explore and the show fires on all cylinders when it does go into that territory.
Here, I think the problem is that beyond that simple... what's the word I'm looking for?- beyond the sort of diagrammed explication of the conflict and why it works and doesn't work, that I just outlined, about hero- hero, villain and audience expectation, etc., etc. But beyond the simple construction of that as an intellectual exercise, I don't know that we've delivered on the central premise here, which is that Bill Duke's question- Bill Duke's statement at the head of the show, "You won't shoot me. You're not like me." When Lee shoots him, you should feel that he shoots him because, "Oh my God! I'm realizing that he is like Bill Duke and oh! Woah! I'm like shocked. And that's- I don't know how I feel about Lee, but I'm really surprised because he's more like Bill Duke than I thought." I don't think the show really says that. I don't think we've accomplished that mission. And that should have been the mission here, is if you're going to predicate a whole show on this concept, about this central confrontation it should pay off that idea.
Personal opinion - Throwing in child prostitutes was realistic, but also a huge mistake. The moment you do that, the Black Market and the people who run it are completely indefensible from a moral stand point. If Lee tortured Phelan to death and then pissed in his corpse, no one would have felt Lee was out of line.
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What was out-of-place about Black Market?
People keep repeating how "out of character" those episodes are. How so?
Lee's all of a sudden wanting a serious relationship with a prostitute came out of nowhere. With a serial show this really should have been set up better, it's a device suited for an episodic show as it is. The whole Dee, Billy, Lee thing was irksome to me. Billy and Dee were cast as a symbol of hope but now they're making both of them almost pathetic. Both kind of seemed rewritten at this point in the show, but particularly Dee. I don't recall any notion of a powerful black market prior to this episode, yet how many major names were involved in it? The episode made it seem like a crime syndicate was a powerful and influential force in the fleet, where have they been? It isn't like the show is still setting up the scenario, it's the end of the second season.
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^ That perfectly sums up why I think Black Market is one of the worst episodes of the series.
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Something about Lee seeing a prostitute feels out of place. If he is seeing a prostitute, he doesn't offer them any outside help. The shame would be too powerful.
Eh, kind of, but not really. Lee is always so conflicted about everything that this doesn't really come as a surprise--especially given that he is unable to see the relationship for what it truly is: Just a guy seeing a prostitute. He sees it as a relationship, which it isn't. And that naivete is part of what drives the episode.
I'm not sure I buy Tigh participating in the Black Market. Tigh does many things he shouldn't do. The Black Market doesn't feel like one of them.
Really? I thought that was one thing that definitely was NOT out of place. When Lee went to him, my reaction was, "Oh, that makes sense. Of all people, OF COURSE this guy and/or his wife are involved in the black market." :lol
From a plot perspective - introducing the Black Market so quickly feels like it's sudden. If this group has the power to kill the CO of the Pegasus then... why didn't we know about them earlier?
Yeah, a little. But it was presented as a long-term problem that was slowly growing until it finally got on the Higher-Ups' radar. I thought that was fine.
From a conceptual standpoint, Ron Moore basically explains it perfectly
I like that explanation.
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What was out-of-place about Black Market?
People keep repeating how "out of character" those episodes are. How so?
Lee's all of a sudden wanting a serious relationship with a prostitute came out of nowhere. With a serial show this really should have been set up better, it's a device suited for an episodic show as it is. The whole Dee, Billy, Lee thing was irksome to me. Billy and Dee were cast as a symbol of hope but now they're making both of them almost pathetic. Both kind of seemed rewritten at this point in the show, but particularly Dee.
VERY good point. Since they are more or less the 3rd or 4th tier storyline going on in that episode, I had forgotten about them. But you are absolutely right. That was stupid.
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And that naivete is part of what drives the episode.
And what pretty much defines Lee as a character. I liked it.
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Same. I find that Lee is never quite what I want him to be or expect him to be. And while this is frustrating and makes me dislike him, it makes me like the show as a whole.
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I like him. He's kinda a lost soul, with no particular identity. And he's competent in everything he does, so he's pulled in all different directions who know well that'd he be an asset to their cause. His lack of confidence in himself (probably as a result of being uncertain of who he actually is) causes him to take all sorts of extreme measures to "prove" that he is whatever role he's currently playing. But you always know that's not the real Lee. I'm not sure the real Lee can find himself aboard the Galactica, in the middle of an intergalactic war that threatens the existence of humanity. Poor Lee... haha.
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And that naivete is part of what drives the episode.
And what pretty much defines Lee as a character. I liked it.
This exactly.
Black Market has some flaws, but I don't agree that it's out of character.
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Sacrifice: Interesting writing; not so interesting execution. I mean, it is cool that the audience was really made to grapple with the issue of how far to trust Sharon. But, overall, it wasn't a great episode. Much respect lost for Dee and Lee. Billy... :(
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Yup, Dee, Lee, and Billy represent one of my biggest complaints of the series. Fine, they decided to kill off a character that was both popular and they wanted to keep in the series, but they did it terribly. They almost retroactively wrecked a great back burner plot line (Billy & Dee), turned Dee from an easily liked character to one that never could recover a positive image, and had to make Billy look sort of sad before offing him. All because Billy's actor wouldn't sign a long term contract.
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Black Market was the worst episode of the series until The Woman King came along, and that took the title hands down, running away. Black Market, at least, I can see what they were getting at. The Woman King just sucks. :rollin
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I cannot tell you how tempted I am to read the episode summary of that episode after all the crap talked about it now. :lol
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It's not the concept of the episode that's awful, it's the execution.
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I'm just Jonesing for another Cylon model reveal.
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Ugh - IMO, Dee is one of the most useless characters on the show. Never did like her.
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Ugh - IMO, Dee is one of the most useless characters on the show. Never did like her.
She was damn cute.
And she was responsible for, in my opinion, one of the most shocking and sad moments in the show.
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More like good riddance if you ask me.
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More like good riddance if you ask me.
WELL I DIDN'T ASK YOU NOW DID I?!?
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Nope. Couldn't care less though.
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Nope. Couldn't care less though.
I've done some calculations. Turns out you can care 6% less.
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No, that's if I'd said I COULD care less. COULDN'T care less means that I can't be in the negative for caring below zero. :)
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No, that's if I'd said I COULD care less. COULDN'T care less means that I can't be in the negative for caring below zero. :)
I know. I was contradicting you.
It seems my humor isn't for you. Carry on.
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I got it - your sense of humor IS hard to peg though.
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Ugh - IMO, Dee is one of the most useless characters on the show. Never did like her.
She was damn cute.
And she was responsible for, in my opinion, one of the most shocking and sad moments in the show.
Oh yeah! When I first saw that my jaw broke the floor and the basement.
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I got it - your sense of humor IS hard to peg though.
CAN WE AT LEAST HAVE ONE THREAD ON THIS FORUM WHERE WE DON'T BRING UP ANDYDT!
Anyway, the Captain's Hand...so...Commander Adama, eh? Hmm...
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Oh man, I'm getting excited for you.
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Me too. More tonight. But what we learned yesterday:
1. Lee can take command and perform under pressure (despite him being a tool at times, we pretty much already knew this)
2. Dee has gone from likeable character to even farther down the road of stupid, unlikeable bimbo.
3. Starbuck is complicated (yeah, we already knew this, too), but is like that one person everybody knows who is a complete screw up and doesn't know when to keep their mouth shut to save their lives, but is always there for you (or for anyone else, for that matter) when the chips are down
4. Colonials care about abortion (this is the LAST thing I wanted in my sci-fi series :\ )
5. Gaius' self-motivated treachery knows no bounds (yeah, we pretty much knew this as well)
6. Apparently, everybody in a position of power conveniently has a jewel box in their desk with lapel pins (or whatever they are) for all military ranks so that they can promote anybody to the next rank right on the spot
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4. Colonials care about abortion (this is the LAST thing I wanted in my sci-fi series :\ )
I thought it could have been handled better, but given the circumstances of the fleet it was actually relevant within the context of the story.
What I didn't like is how it almost felt too disconnected from the real world. The episode framed the debate in terms of - 'the religious anti-abortion delegates were right for the wrong reasons, and the pro-choice advocates were wrong for the right reasons.'
Well... maybe. But what does that matter. I think Flesh and Bone is a great episode because it forces me to look at an important idea in a different way. I don't look at abortion even remotely differently after Captain's Hand. It doesn't mean anything. And from a dramatic standpoint, it wasn't my favorite episode of the series.
So why was it in the show other than to touch on heated subject matter?
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I agree with you.
So why was it in the show other than to touch on heated subject matter?
Yeah, for the reasons you mentioned, it felt both gratuitous and pointless. But it did serve a purpose, plotwise (or, at least, it looks that way now) in that it is the issue on which Gaius is able to part ways and publicly forge his own political identity, and it is at least the first big wedge between what looks to be the two major political camps in the upcoming election.
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Remember the show has a relationship to Star Trek, which is a scifi franchise built to touch on social issues. I think Moore is used to doing this kind of thing and let that come along with him into the series. Felt out of place in this universe, though, I agree.
2. Dee has gone from likeable character to even farther down the road of stupid, unlikeable bimbo.
Hear hear!
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Yup, Dee, Lee, and Billy represent one of my biggest complaints of the series. Fine, they decided to kill off a character that was both popular and they wanted to keep in the series, but they did it terribly. They almost retroactively wrecked a great back burner plot line (Billy & Dee), turned Dee from an easily liked character to one that never could recover a positive image, and had to make Billy look sort of sad before offing him. All because Billy's actor wouldn't sign a long term contract.
I really never had a problem with any of this, because right from the first series one of the big themes of the show for me was that EVERYONE is flawed.
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Flawed, yes. ...but a hidden love for Lee the whole time? Come on. It takes the whole hopeful bright spot relationship and reduces it to something that had no hope to begin with. They didn't need to play Dee that way, it was just a shift trying to make Billy's death more valiant or something. Instead he came across awkward. He always had his faults, but he was someone that excelled despite of them. Nearing his end it seemed they wanted to play up his bumbling nature more negatively instead of as a backwards positive.
Lee, well, Lee is Lee, but it doesn't help you like him.
Faults are one thing, they botched the story telling on a plot move they didn't want to do in the first place. The route they took spoiled something they had done good, that's a bad move.
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Since this doesn't ruin things for Bosk - Fragged is secretly one of the best episodes of the series that no one talks about.
SPOILERS
- Great story of how Tigh eventually chooses to impose martial law. The breakdown of his command is dramatized very well here. A lot of the stuff with Ellen during these episodes feels too much like her just simply nagging him into stupidity. But in this episode she does interesting things that cause Tigh to do dumb things for very understandable and intriguing reasons.
- A lot of Crashdown being bad at leadership in the previous two episodes felt a bit silly. Definitely good television, but it felt almost like an exercise in seeing just how incompetent you could believably write a character. In this episode, it takes a very dark turn that really helps pay the whole arc off. The scene where he draws the graphs on the ground is absurd, which is why it's brilliant and uncomfortably truthful.
- Baltar's little arc on Kobol has an interesting end. You need him to do something that makes him a man, but you also can't have him become more self-actualized in any way. So, you have him do something extreme (killing Crashdown) under such extreme pressure that it's almost not a conscious act (he looks surprised even after he does it). This puts Baltar in a position where he didn't actually do something that allows him to call himself more of a man. Instead, he's forced into playing the role of a man, and then having to sort out what that means he should do. Of course, as we see almost immediately, this becomes a disaster.
- Special effects in this episode are some of the best in the series. Not necessarily because of the special effects work itself, but the quality of the plate shots. For instance, when the missile battery fires, the camera pans upward with the missiles. Since you don't actually see any of this when you're filming the plate, it requires a lot of vision to figure something like that out on the day. Lots of great shots like that in this episode.
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Baltar is such a tool. I wish they'd kill him. Anyway...
-Downloaded - Awesome. Although I think there is perhaps an unnoticed continuity error. Both Caprica Six and Sharon were "killed" quite some time ago, plotwise. Why did it take so long to resurrect them? We know from other episodes that the process doesn't take long at all. Or did this episode actually take place fairly long ago, and is just a bit out of sequence? I guess that's possible. We're led to believe at the end of the episode that the two of them are going to persuade the Cylons that they have made a grave mistake, and then that suddenly happens in the next episode or two, which seems odd. I guess it's more believable if Downloaded actually occurred some time ago, and Caprica Six and Sharon actually spent a long time on a campaign that we as the audience do not see, but that took place at the same time as all the events we are more familiar with, convincing the rest of the Cylons. That could have been explained a bit better. Anyway, aside from that, great episode.
Lay Down Your Burdens, 1 and 2: Oh. Just...oh. Wow. Things have taken a very dark turn indeed.
Occupied: More of that. And a lot of characters have rightly undergone serious develoment and/or transformations. Can't wait to see what happens next...
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Downloaded was awesome. Unconventional, yeah, but still very effective.
You are now at the heart of what is probably my favorite 5-run episode of BSG in the series.
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Terohr Ialv!
Make sure you watch the webisodes! They're set between seasons 2 and 3!
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Terohr Ialv!
???
Make sure you watch the webisodes! They're set between seasons 2 and 3!
How do I get the webisodes?
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-Downloaded - Awesome. Although I think there is perhaps an unnoticed continuity error.
I think the intention is that you go back in time to see Caprica Six and Boomer's resurrections, and then move forward to something closer to the time frame of the series.
When the two Cavils are explaining the reprieve to Adama, there's no offer of friendship or anything like that. I'd guess the idea of the Occupation and attempt at merging the two races together formulated later.
Lay Down Your Burdens, 1 and 2: Oh. Just...oh. Wow. Things have taken a very dark turn indeed.
These episodes are so good for so many reasons.
Even though it's not a crucial part of the plot, the whole Cavil/Chief thing is just interesting. I loved when Cavil made the reference to the Cylon parties. It was an obvious tip of the hat to him being a Cylon, but so awesome a moment that it didn't matter.
The music at the beginning (Something Dark is Coming) is one of the best tracks in the series.
The One Year Later thing is still mind blowing, especially with how it was done. No buildup of any kind. It's just like "yup, we're going here."
The whole election stealing plot. Including the scene where Adama and Roslin decide not to do it.
The scene with the two Cavils is one of the best in the series. So perfectly acted by Dean Stockwell.
I could go on and on.
Occupied: More of that. And a lot of characters have rightly undergone serious develoment and/or transformations. Can't wait to see what happens next...
Episodes 301 - 304 are my favorite episodes of the series.
You have the notion of one of the main characters (Tigh) ordering a suicide bombing and actually having an argument for doing it that's hard to deny. The intro (with the music and the images) is classic Ronald D Moore (he did that kind of stuff from time to time on Carnivale, and it was just as amazing).
BSG is generally at its best when it creates really twisted situations that you're forced to intellectually. By doing this, you feel the emotion of moments that are generally not only outside your conceptions of reality, but actually antagonistic to them. If somebody ever asked me - "Would you root for a TV character that ordered a suicide bombing?" I'd probably say no. Yet here I am.
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YES! All of that!
-Downloaded - Awesome. Although I think there is perhaps an unnoticed continuity error.
I think the intention is that you go back in time to see Caprica Six and Boomer's resurrections, and then move forward to something closer to the time frame of the series.
That makes sense. Although, again, I wish they had done a bit more to explain that that was the timeline. Or maybe they did and I just missed it (I was so exhausted this weekend that there were a few times when I feel asleep and had to go back and rewatch, so I may have missed a couple of things here and there).
Even though it's not a crucial part of the plot, the whole Cavil/Chief thing is just interesting. I loved when Cavil made the reference to the Cylon parties. It was an obvious tip of the hat to him being a Cylon, but so awesome a moment that it didn't matter.
Cavil, or Chief? :biggrin:
I pretty much knew right from Cavil's first appearance that he was a Cylon. And, no, I didn't pick that up from any spoilers. It was just fairly obvious to me. Which must mean I am a Cylon. Hmm...
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Terohr Ialv!
???
Remember awhile back we were discussing characters with coded names wo you wouldn't know? Terohr Ialv = Brother Cavil.
Make sure you watch the webisodes! They're set between seasons 2 and 3!
How do I get the webisodes?
Not sure what you're watching off of, but they were in special features on the dvd set. I think it might have been disc 2, they didn't advertise them well.
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Cavil, or Chief? :biggrin:
Cavil. Until all 12 Cylons are revealed, I refuse to discount anyone.
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Terohr Ialv!
???
Remember awhile back we were discussing characters with coded names wo you wouldn't know? Terohr Ialv = Brother Cavil.
Make sure you watch the webisodes! They're set between seasons 2 and 3!
How do I get the webisodes?
Not sure what you're watching off of, but they were in special features on the dvd set. I think it might have been disc 2, they didn't advertise them well.
I'll have to look at my disks. I don't have the huge mega box set of the entire thing. I just have each season. Hopefully, they're included in there and I just missed it. I'll check.
Cavil, or Chief? :biggrin:
Cavil. Until all 12 Cylons are revealed, I refuse to discount anyone.
I hear ya'. So with the addition of Cavil, at this point in the story, 7 have been revealed. (What's his model #?) And, unfortunately, as I mentioned awhile back, I know about two others (although how they will be revealed is still a mystery). So that leaves 3 unidentified.
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#1
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The webisodes were on my season 3 dvd set.
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Episodes 301 - 304 are my favorite episodes of the series.
Don't forget 305, which is my second favourite of those first five episodes, and is really the coda.
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The start of series 3 is one of the greatest things ever out of all things.
Goddamn I really need to watch this show again!
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Precipice. :omg:
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So...just finished Exodus pt. 2 last night. Just...wow. This whole story arc of the occupation of New Caprica was really good and definitely makes this show a VERY close runner up for best sci-fi show on TV (behind TSCC, of course). And even aside from all the other coolness, the arc was very emotionally satisfying as well. They really nailed giving a perfect mix of triumph at the cost of great personal tragedy.
It also sets up some really great story lines. For one thing, the occupation and exodus should, for all intents and purposes, unite the surviving colonists. I am sure an underlying theme in ongoing episodes will be the tension between this newfound unity vs. the types of division that are sure to naturally spring up for a variety of reasons.
So...humans vs. Cylons. Interesting dynamic. This occupation likely will have made the Cylons' actions toward humanity even more personal to the colonists. The dialog between Baltar and Three toward the end of the episode plays on this. He tells her the Cylons should just leave. And her response is basically, "What then? You'll tell your children about how the evil Cylons tried to wipe out and then enslave humanity, and they will tell their children, and eventually, they will set out to find us and pay us back." The unspoken response, of course, is: "Well, yeah. You DID try to wipe us out and then enslave us. They will probably be consequences for that that cannot simply be erased. But that will just have to dealt with later." This sets up a really interesting dynamic. All in all, any chance for peace is all but gone. The Cylons completely stirred up the hornet's nest, and I think there is likely a renewed fire in the minds and hearts of the Colonials to fight back. Only problem is, they simply do not have the resources. Althought it hasn't been revealed, I would guess they are in even worse shape now than when they first left Caprica, except they may have more vipers. Pegasus is gone, and likely a lot of resources with it. Gallactica is severely damaged. There are less civilian ships. A lot of resources were likely left behind on New Caprica--and given the long stay there, the ships themselves were likely VERY light on resources when they left. And a lot of people have died. The Colonials are in no shape for a fight whatsoever. Yet I'm sure they are itching for one. Interested to see how this plays out.
What about the government? It's logical Roslyn will retake control with no opposition whatsoever. Zarek looks likely to back her, at least for now, and it wouldn't surprise me if he became VP. Down the road? Who knows? Zarek is likely a VERY changed man, but he still doesn't strike me as the type to play nice when he has his own agenda to fullfil. And surely there are others with ambitions as well.
What about the collaborators? The audience I think sympathizes with Gaita because we know a lot more about him than any of the characters do. But as far as the Colonials are concerned, he has some serious 'splaining to do. Similar with Jammer. I'm pretty sure Tyrol and others saw him remove his mask, revealing that he was part of the Cylon police force. He and others will have some things to answer for. Given that the title of the next episode is "Collaborators," I'm sure some of this will be dealt with in short order.
What about Sharon? She's a Cylon in the fleet. Just...wow. This is going to cause some tensions I'm sure. And she and Helo are inevitably going to bring the issue of Hera being alive to a head. Should be interesting.
And what about other Cylons in the fleet? This is really interesting to think about on so many levels. Okay, here's my Cylon count so far in terms of models revealed:
-No. 1: (Cavill)
-No. 2: (Leoben)
-No. 3 (D'Anna Biers)
-No. 4 (Simon)
-No. 5: (Doral)
-No. 6:
-No. 8: (Sharon)
5 undiscovered models (I know what some are, but not others). Some or all of which likely have copies among the fleet. What do? Going back to Adama's conversation on this subject with Sharon, I'm still surprised that he failed to ask the most important question in that dialog. He asked whether she would reveal the other Cylons in the fleet. She said no. The mandatory follow-up question is "why not?" Is she choosing not to? Is she unable to? The answer to this question is perhaps the single most crucial piece of information he can gain from her and could reveal a lot about her motives and the Cylons' plans. Maybe she doesn't know. Maybe per programming actively prevents her from revealing that. Maybe she is sympathetic to the cause(s) some of them may have. Maybe they just want to be left alone and considered human, and she doesn't want to betray that. Maybe they don't know what they are. Lots of possibilities. But especially now that she is an officer, Adama needs to know WHY she won't or can't tell him. This needs to play out soon for the writers to hold their credibility.
What about Starbuck? She has gone through some devastating psychological and emotional manipulation that I am sure will have ramifications.
Lots more questions and comments I could make, but I have to work, so that's enough for now. I may not even watch anymore episodes for a little while. Yeah, there are lots of questions and loose ends (I didn't even really get into issues about what the other Cylons outside the fleet may be up to). But right now, I think I'll just bask in the feeling that everything is okay for now, now that they are freed and the Cylons temporarily beaten.
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That 2-parter was awesome! Especially this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JdkCpnGMyGw
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BOSK FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THAT IS HOLY DO NOT CLICK THAT LINK DO NOT DO IT
RELATED VIDEOS CONTAIN MASSIVE SERIES DESTROYING SPOILERS
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??? I clicked it before you posted. But what spoilers are you talking about? It's just a 1:02 clip from Exodus, pt. 2, which I've already seen.
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Whatever, it's the Galactica in-atmosphere jump in the link.
??? I clicked it before you posted. But what spoilers are you talking about? It's just a 1:02 clip from Exodus, pt. 2, which I've already seen.
He means the related vids on the right side, though I never pay attention to them.
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??? I clicked it before you posted. But what spoilers are you talking about? It's just a 1:02 clip from Exodus, pt. 2, which I've already seen.
The related videos on the side of the page had multiple clips from literally the last episode of the show.
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BOSK FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THAT IS HOLY DO NOT CLICK THAT LINK DO NOT DO IT
RELATED VIDEOS CONTAIN MASSIVE SERIES DESTROYING SPOILERS
Oh, shit. I just watched the last ten minutes again.
Geez. It hit me even harder.
EDIT:
Bosk, you're now over what I and many others consider to be the zenith of quality in the series. The next two seasons are full of some of the show's best and worst moments. Just keep in mind that the ending is so worth sticking through whatever. They really went all-out on making sure you felt as much completion with the series as possible.
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That 2-parter was awesome! Especially this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JdkCpnGMyGw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JdkCpnGMyGw)
LOVE that part. :2metal:
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Bosk, you're now over what I and many others consider to be the zenith of quality in the series. The next two seasons are full of some of the show's best and worst moments. Just keep in mind that the ending is so worth sticking through whatever. They really went all-out on making sure you felt as much completion with the series as possible.
In before GP shits all over this.
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Well, the New Caprica arc was quite possibly the best arc in the series, but there's plenty of great stuff left. Just thinking about what's going to be happening in the rest of season 3 makes me want to watch the series.
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Whatever, it's the Galactica in-atmosphere jump in the link.
??? I clicked it before you posted. But what spoilers are you talking about? It's just a 1:02 clip from Exodus, pt. 2, which I've already seen.
He means the related vids on the right side, though I never pay attention to them.
Oh, I see. I purposely ignored those, so it's all good.
So, no other comments on my post above? I know you guys are being careful not to reveal spoilers, but surely there have to be some discussion points.
What's really getting to me is the thought that surely the Colonials are just burning to retaliate against the Cylons, but sorely lack the resources to do so. I'm dying to know what's going to happen in that regard.
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Sounds like you better not take a break!
On your comments, Adama might just not care since he needs experienced officers. Or he's making a point to her that he really doesn't have her full support.
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So, no other comments on my post above? I know you guys are being careful not to reveal spoilers, but surely there have to be some discussion points.
Discussing substantiatively while avoiding spoilers is hard. Sorry.
I will say this though, you're getting better at watching the show, even though it sounds a bit silly. A lot of times in your earlier posts you were asking questions that didn't really matter. Now you're looking for the right things out of the show, and it will deliver. Even if it takes a little time.
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I want to say things, but I'm never certain if they'd be spoilers, as what happens when has become a huge blur to me.
As far as the Cylon thing goes, I'm pretty sure that not all Cylon models are aware of all other models. I thought that was implied somewhere, but I don't remember. Not sure why Adama would know that, though.
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I will say this though, you're getting better at watching the show, even though it sounds a bit silly. A lot of times in your earlier posts you were asking questions that didn't really matter. Now you're looking for the right things out of the show, and it will deliver.
I get what you're saying, but I think it's kind of a silly thing to say. If my questions seem more on point now, that's just a factor of the plot, characters, and theme being more fully developed and focused. Early in a serial show like this, where those things aren't as fully developed, there is a LOT more room for speculation and tangents. Some of that is simply because the story hasn't had time to focus, and part of it is just good writing by dropping appropriate hints and red herrings to misdirect the audience. So of course viewers are going to place undue focus on nonsequiturs and things that ultimately aren't going to be very relevant.
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@bosk1: Another dynamic to the 3 and Baltar coversation that I always assumed was the hint that three was saying, "we know you'll do it because we're doing it. The Cylons feel justified in their actions and the humans can understand that.
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@bosk1: Another dynamic to the 3 and Baltar coversation that I always assumed was the hint that three was saying, "we know you'll do it because we're doing it. The Cylons feel justified in their actions and the humans can understand that.
Well, I think the Cylons (at least, some of them) view their actions as similar to what they believe the humans will do. But I think that is yet another error on their part.
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So, no other comments on my post above? I know you guys are being careful not to reveal spoilers, but surely there have to be some discussion points.
Discussing substantiatively while avoiding spoilers is hard. Sorry.
Lame. This is a discussion forum. If no one wants to actually discuss, I guess there's no point in me posting in the thread about what I've seen.
This whole question about the fight is kinda driving me nuts. I mean, surely, the survivors want to fight. But they completely lack the capability. Again, they lost Pegasus. Galactica is likely crippled beyond repair. Starbuck's comment a few episodes back about the way to fight such an enemy is to sneak up on them and club them in the head is likely a VERY thematic comment for how upcoming battles are to be fought (in other words, carefully planned stealth/guerrilla type attacks, doing things perhaps more along the lines of when Sharon snuck a nuke onto a base star with a raptor in an earlier episode). But I'm wondering how that's all going to play out.
Given recent events, I am also pretty sure factions within the Cylon race are going to become further entrenched and cause fissures that divide them into a race and cause almost a civil war among them. I'm wondering what that will look like and whether there will be actual combat between groups, or simply just divisions. And if the former, I can't help but speculate that one side may start supplying weapons or weapons materials to the humans that could turn the tide.
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It's really, really hard to discuss the things you just mentioned without spoiling anything, but your line of thinking is a good one.
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It's really, really hard to discuss the things you just mentioned without spoiling anything, but your line of thinking is a good one.
That's exactly what I was thinking too.
We know you want to discuss this all with us, it's just that we would have to jump into the Delorean to go back to the time where we all first saw the show (different times for all in this thread so far, I would suspect, as I started watching the show well after it was done while I assume most of you folks watched it in real time) in order to NOT spoil you.
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Well, I'm not saying to discuss those things necessarily. But there are other things we could discuss. For example, someone could say, "Man, can you believe the complete emotional rape that Starbuck went through?" And then we could talk about that. For example.
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Man, can you believe the complete emotional rape that Starbuck went through?
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Well, I'm not saying to discuss those things necessarily. But there are other things we could discuss. For example, someone could say, "Man, can you believe the complete emotional rape that Starbuck went through?" And then we could talk about that. For example.
True. Only thing is that it's been about a year and a half or so since I first watched the whole series, so I'm a bit removed from it and only remember the key points and not the little nuances. I'm due for a rewatch, and soon.
Man, can you believe the complete emotional rape that Starbuck went through?
Oh you... (https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v317/bizarredevotedfan/Randomness/sarcasm.gif)
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Man, can you believe the complete emotional rape that Starbuck went through?
I can't even!
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Iknowrite?!
Finding out at the end that Kacey wasn't really here's was such a gut-punch. I almost cried. If she sees Leoben face to face again, she'll probably just go straight into berserker more and rip the flesh from his bones with her bare hands.
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Iknowrite?!
Finding out at the end that Kacey wasn't really here's was such a gut-punch. I almost cried. If she sees Leoben face to face again, she'll probably just go straight into berserker more and rip the flesh from his bones with her bare hands.
See this is an example of where I have an issue. There is a specific (and very important) scene between the two that I am thinking of. However I have no idea if you've seen it yet since I don't remember the exact chronology and I especially don't remember episode titles.
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Well, she killed him 2 or 3 times in the New Caprica episodes, if that's what you're thinking of.
On another note, in reviewing my Cylon reveal score sheet, my fake OCD is kicking in. Yes, or course it would be lame if the reveals were in numerical order. So of course they wouldn't do that. But as it stands now, we have 1-6, and 8 revealed. WHERE IS THE #7 MODEL??!! FILL IN THE GAP NOW!!! :lemmeseeurwarface: They'll probably wait until the very last reveal to reveal the 7's after the 9-12's just to piss off all the people who overanalyze stuff like that. :rant:
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Lame. This is a discussion forum. If no one wants to actually discuss, I guess there's no point in me posting in the thread about what I've seen.
Sorry. I didn't want to sound dismissive. It's just that the difficulty is a limitation. I can't just run of thoughts quickly. Let's go!
This whole question about the fight is kinda driving me nuts. I mean, surely, the survivors want to fight. But they completely lack the capability. Again, they lost Pegasus. Galactica is likely crippled beyond repair. Starbuck's comment a few episodes back about the way to fight such an enemy is to sneak up on them and club them in the head is likely a VERY thematic comment for how upcoming battles are to be fought (in other words, carefully planned stealth/guerrilla type attacks, doing things perhaps more along the lines of when Sharon snuck a nuke onto a base star with a raptor in an earlier episode). But I'm wondering how that's all going to play out.
What you're talking about will definitely play out over the next season. The tenor of the human-cylon encounters in general starts to change. Before, the Cylons were sort of a robot monster army. Now, the humans have dealt with the Cylons very directly. An encounter with them feels more personal.
Given recent events, I am also pretty sure factions within the Cylon race are going to become further entrenched and cause fissures that divide them into a race and cause almost a civil war among them. I'm wondering what that will look like and whether there will be actual combat between groups, or simply just divisions. And if the former, I can't help but speculate that one side may start supplying weapons or weapons materials to the humans that could turn the tide.
::)
They really nailed giving a perfect mix of triumph at the cost of great personal tragedy.
Yeah. When everybody comes into the hanger bay, it's hard not to focus on what Tigh, Starbuck, and the other people on the planet have gone through. In particular, when everyone lifts Adama on their arms and carries him away. And Tigh just walks off. Soul-crushing.
It also sets up some really great story lines. For one thing, the occupation and exodus should, for all intents and purposes, unite the surviving colonists. I am sure an underlying theme in ongoing episodes will be the tension between this newfound unity vs. the types of division that are sure to naturally spring up for a variety of reasons.
Don't underestimate the power of grudges.
So...humans vs. Cylons. Interesting dynamic. This occupation likely will have made the Cylons' actions toward humanity even more personal to the colonists. The dialog between Baltar and Three toward the end of the episode plays on this. He tells her the Cylons should just leave. And her response is basically, "What then? You'll tell your children about how the evil Cylons tried to wipe out and then enslave humanity, and they will tell their children, and eventually, they will set out to find us and pay us back." The unspoken response, of course, is: "Well, yeah. You DID try to wipe us out and then enslave us. They will probably be consequences for that that cannot simply be erased. But that will just have to dealt with later."
Essentially yes. The Cylons aren't really in a great position themselves.
This sets up a really interesting dynamic. All in all, any chance for peace is all but gone.
Good point.
The Cylons completely stirred up the hornet's nest, and I think there is likely a renewed fire in the minds and hearts of the Colonials to fight back. Only problem is, they simply do not have the resources. Althought it hasn't been revealed, I would guess they are in even worse shape now than when they first left Caprica, except they may have more vipers. Pegasus is gone, and likely a lot of resources with it. Gallactica is severely damaged. There are less civilian ships. A lot of resources were likely left behind on New Caprica--and given the long stay there, the ships themselves were likely VERY light on resources when they left. And a lot of people have died
The lack of resources comes up. And you'll notice that the survivor total goes down drastically at the start of the next episode.
What about the government? It's logical Roslyn will retake control with no opposition whatsoever. Zarek looks likely to back her, at least for now, and it wouldn't surprise me if he became VP. Down the road? Who knows? Zarek is likely a VERY changed man, but he still doesn't strike me as the type to play nice when he has his own agenda to fullfil. And surely there are others with ambitions as well.
It's relevant to look at the government relative to its need to exist. In the first season, there were actual broadcast reporters in suits putting on a show to cover the first new Quorum of Twelve meeting. If I remember correctly - the press still exists after the New Caprica arc, but everything takes on a different vibe. The press sorta becomes the worst version of itself in a way because those motivations are the only reason for them to do what they do. The logical ones are gone.
Look at the government this way. Why does the rag-tag fleet have a government that's essentially a carbon-copy of the one they had at the colonies? Does it really make sense? Nope. What's the tension between that and the fact they still put up the facade of a "government."
What about the collaborators? The audience I think sympathizes with Gaita because we know a lot more about him than any of the characters do. But as far as the Colonials are concerned, he has some serious 'splaining to do. Similar with Jammer. I'm pretty sure Tyrol and others saw him remove his mask, revealing that he was part of the Cylon police force. He and others will have some things to answer for. Given that the title of the next episode is "Collaborators," I'm sure some of this will be dealt with in short order.
Yup.
What about Sharon? She's a Cylon in the fleet. Just...wow. This is going to cause some tensions I'm sure. And she and Helo are inevitably going to bring the issue of Hera being alive to a head. Should be interesting.
The way it's played is kinda interesting.
And what about other Cylons in the fleet? This is really interesting to think about on so many levels. Okay, here's my Cylon count so far in terms of models revealed:
-No. 1: (Cavill)
-No. 2: (Leoben)
-No. 3 (D'Anna Biers)
-No. 4 (Simon)
-No. 5: (Doral)
-No. 6:
-No. 8: (Sharon)
5 undiscovered models (I know what some are, but not others). Some or all of which likely have copies among the fleet. What do? Going back to Adama's conversation on this subject with Sharon, I'm still surprised that he failed to ask the most important question in that dialog. He asked whether she would reveal the other Cylons in the fleet. She said no. The mandatory follow-up question is "why not?" Is she choosing not to? Is she unable to? The answer to this question is perhaps the single most crucial piece of information he can gain from her and could reveal a lot about her motives and the Cylons' plans. Maybe she doesn't know. Maybe per programming actively prevents her from revealing that. Maybe she is sympathetic to the cause(s) some of them may have. Maybe they just want to be left alone and considered human, and she doesn't want to betray that. Maybe they don't know what they are. Lots of possibilities. But especially now that she is an officer, Adama needs to know WHY she won't or can't tell him. This needs to play out soon for the writers to hold their credibility.
The nature of the other Cylon models is one of the main plot-points of the first half of season three. Here's a semi-obvious question that Baltar will ask in a couple episodes, that you can ask now since it's not a spoiler: Why, when the Cylons lived among the humans, were there only seven models hanging around? Shouldn't there have been twelve?
What about Starbuck? She has gone through some devastating psychological and emotional manipulation that I am sure will have ramifications.
Oh will it ever.
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Okay, I really want to be a part of this discussion too, so I'll try harder.
Again, they lost Pegasus.
About that. I was always a little bit disappointed with how little the Pegasus was utilized. When it entered the fleet, I thought we were gonna see some major Galactic/Pegasus co-opt action. But then we find out it's run by a crazy egomaniac, and when it does fall into capable hands, democracy squanders the potential. And then Lee just sits on it.
A pretty good analogy that works with the show, really. The war with the Cylons crushes some members of the crew and humanity in general; that's undeniable. But humanity also bands together in strength as a result of literally having no other option. Adama's retiring when the show begins, and Saul is career bully whose blatant alcoholism makes an open mockery of his standing. And then the Cylons come, and it's game on. Even Lee, too, has no real sense of purpose at first but starts to get into a groove by the second season.
When Baltar exchanges the war with the Cylons for an unearned peace, some of those characters loosen back to their Caprica-era bad habits. Fatsuit Lee is the perfect example of that. I mean, the peace isn't totally a bad thing, as the crew really needs it. But, when the Cylons come back, it's like some of those characters aren't really even capable of accepting it at first. And when Lee's finally jolted back into action, the Pegasus winds up being the price for the fleet's overall unwillingness to take control of a situation that's been prematurely handed off to people like Baltar who think that everyone can get through everything without making any real sacrifices.
There's an attempt in the first two seasons to balance the new, colonial society based on warfare with the old, democratic ways of Caprica. The war side itches to take the fight straight to the Cylons. The democratic side wants to retain the ever-fading illusion that Caprica's established traditions are still relevant to the post-Caprica society. Those two conflicting visions for the colony are at war with each other constantly, before the latter temporarily wins out-- which winds up being a huge mistake for the entire remainder of humanity. Not to give much away, but I think you'll see that in the upcoming episodes those two conflicting views move through together much more amiably, if not perfectly.
The false peace the fleet gets from touching down on (I forget that planet's name) also contrasts nicely with something that happens later, but I won't get into that now. My view is that, at the start of the show, humanity's become way too soft since the last Cylon encounter, and unwilling to correct it's previous mistakes. Again, without giving too much away, I consider the decision of the fleet to colonize that planet to be another major mistake that, once again, needs to be painfully corrected.
It's relevant to look at the government relative to its need to exist. In the first season, there were actual broadcast reporters in suits putting on a show to cover the first new Quorum of Twelve meeting. If I remember correctly - the press still exists after the New Caprica arc, but everything takes on a different vibe. The press sorta becomes the worst version of itself in a way because those motivations are the only reason for them to do what they do. The logical ones are gone.
Exactly. Post-Caprica humanity really tries to arbitrarily cling on to many of those Caprican social institutions. And, honestly, while Roslin and the others who push for that direction are certainly well-meaning (and keep Adama from turning into whoever-that-was who has the Pegasus first) I think it does harm, too. I don't want to spoil things for Bosk, but I think the entire show is pretty clear that the humans need to get back into touch the really important basic human things that make life valuable.
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Sorry. I didn't want to sound dismissive. It's just that the difficulty is a limitation. I can't just run of thoughts quickly.
Okay, fine. I kinda forgive you.
They really nailed giving a perfect mix of triumph at the cost of great personal tragedy.
Yeah. When everybody comes into the hanger bay, it's hard not to focus on what Tigh, Starbuck, and the other people on the planet have gone through. In particular, when everyone lifts Adama on their arms and carries him away. And Tigh just walks off. Soul-crushing.
Totally. That’s why, even though part of me really wants to see what happens next, I simultaneously also want to take a break from the show for just a little bit. This sounds lame to say with respect to a TV show, but I’ll say it anyway: That is a very powerful image to end on, and I kind of don’t want the emotional impact of that to subside just yet before I race ahead into what happens next. I kinda…I dunno…in a strange way, I almost feel like I owe it to the characters to just let this sit a little bit longer.
And you'll notice that the survivor total goes down drastically at the start of the next episode.
Oh, I’m sure. I think the last survivor count they showed was before Gina activated the bomb on Cloud 9. So there would have been casualties from that. Likely, casualties just from sickness, accidents, etc. just from being in the harsh environment of New Caprica. And then the invasion, occupation, and escape. Yeah, I would expect that the numbers are down a lot lower.
Look at the government this way. Why does the rag-tag fleet have a government that's essentially a carbon-copy of the one they had at the colonies? Does it really make sense? Nope. What's the tension between that and the fact they still put up the facade of a "government."
Oh, interesting. I wasn’t expecting that, but it makes sense. I mean, that has been pretty much Tom’s mantra since he showed up.
Here's a semi-obvious question that Baltar will ask in a couple episodes, that you can ask now since it's not a spoiler: Why, when the Cylons lived among the humans, were there only seven models hanging around? Shouldn't there have been twelve?
??? Wait…so… See, I just assumed that in terms of discovering humanoid Cylon models, things would continue to unfold as they have, where some event happens that reveals that a character you didn’t suspect of being a Cylon, or some new character, ends up being a Cylon model, and that nobody knew it. So you’re saying…there are no more models among the fleet than the ones we have seen? :headasplode:
What about Starbuck? She has gone through some devastating psychological and emotional manipulation that I am sure will have ramifications.
Oh will it ever.
That should be…interesting. I’m already started to dislike her. There is a lot about her character that makes you identify with her, feel sorry for her, etc., but none of those things are the same as liking her, and I definitely found myself disliking her more than liking her. But in addition to things her character has been through (some of which have been explicitly revealed and others just hinted at), she is severely damaged. I’m wondering whether I will like her more or less as things progress now.
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General thoughts after reading your responses to Reap, Bosk:
I think it's important to remember at all times that, while most of the time the show functions on a purely secular level, there are several instances of just purely inexplicable events occurring. There is something out there, whether a spiritual being, or Cylon ploy, or something altogether different, that is moving certain seemingly irrational and imperfect characters in certain directions.
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Totally. That’s why, even though part of me really wants to see what happens next, I simultaneously also want to take a break from the show for just a little bit. This sounds lame to say with respect to a TV show, but I’ll say it anyway: That is a very powerful image to end on, and I kind of don’t want the emotional impact of that to subside just yet before I race ahead into what happens next. I kinda…I dunno…in a strange way, I almost feel like I owe it to the characters to just let this sit a little bit longer.
Maybe. Although the next episode is easier to grok if you have a more visceral emotional conception of the effects of the New Caprican occupation on the crew.
Look at the government this way. Why does the rag-tag fleet have a government that's essentially a carbon-copy of the one they had at the colonies? Does it really make sense? Nope. What's the tension between that and the fact they still put up the facade of a "government."
Oh, interesting. I wasn’t expecting that, but it makes sense. I mean, that has been pretty much Tom’s mantra since he showed up.
Yeah. But it goes deeper than Zarek's obvious shit-stirring.
Here's a semi-obvious question that Baltar will ask in a couple episodes, that you can ask now since it's not a spoiler: Why, when the Cylons lived among the humans, were there only seven models hanging around? Shouldn't there have been twelve?
??? Wait…so… See, I just assumed that in terms of discovering humanoid Cylon models, things would continue to unfold as they have, where some event happens that reveals that a character you didn’t suspect of being a Cylon, or some new character, ends up being a Cylon model, and that nobody knew it. So you’re saying…there are no more models among the fleet than the ones we have seen? :headasplode:
I didn't say that. :)
What about Starbuck? She has gone through some devastating psychological and emotional manipulation that I am sure will have ramifications.
Oh will it ever.
That should be…interesting. I’m already started to dislike her. There is a lot about her character that makes you identify with her, feel sorry for her, etc., but none of those things are the same as liking her, and I definitely found myself disliking her more than liking her. But in addition to things her character has been through (some of which have been explicitly revealed and others just hinted at), she is severely damaged. I’m wondering whether I will like her more or less as things progress now.
I like Starbuck, but that probably says more about me than Starbuck.
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General thoughts after reading your responses to Reap, Bosk:
I think it's important to remember at all times that, while most of the time the show functions on a purely secular level, there are several instances of just purely inexplicable events occurring. There is something out there, whether a spiritual being, or Cylon ploy, or something altogether different, that is moving certain seemingly irrational and imperfect characters in certain directions.
Yeah, but (semi-spoiler), the show isn't meant to be viewed from the perspective that certain characters literally do things because a larger force than themselves move them that way (with one very important exception). All the characters are part of what Head Six calls "God's Plan," but they are actors within it. Not puppets.
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I was always a little bit disappointed with how little the Pegasus was utilized. When it entered the fleet, I thought we were gonna see some major Galactic/Pegasus co-opt action. But then we find out it's run by a crazy egomaniac, and when it does fall into capable hands, democracy squanders the potential. And then Lee just sits on it.
Hmm... Yeah. I agree. BUT, I will also say that (1) as you pretty much concede, the failure to use Pegasus more proactively for what it was designed for (i.e., a weapon of war) perfectly fits one of the major themes that is developing in the series, and the subtle tragedy of the situation would be lost if the directors had spent a season or more having Pegasus flying around shooting up base stars (even though we all crave that), and (2) I think the writers were smart to be judicious about their space battles. NOT having a ton of them allows most of the ones we've seen, especially this last one with the falling Galactica and Pegasus ramming a base star, to often be at least very good if not spectacular.
When Baltar exchanges the war with the Cylons for an unearned peace, some of those characters loosen back to their Caprica-era bad habits.
...the price for the fleet's overall unwillingness to take control of a situation that's been prematurely handed off to people like Baltar who think that everyone can get through everything without making any real sacrifices.
I don't really have anything I want to say about those two sentences at the moment, other than to point out that, aside from the fact that they are written about a TV show that is about space Mormons, those are perhaps the two most amazing and profound sentences I have ever seen written by any mortal hand.
My view is that, at the start of the show, humanity's become way too soft since the last Cylon encounter, and unwilling to correct it's previous mistakes.
Mmmm, yes. Unfortunately, that is a theme that seems to be lost on most of us in real life. VERY astute social observation by the writers, which is a bit surprising since it seems to me to be more of a "convervative" view of the world, and the writers are very liberal. Anyhow, I don't mean to turn this to a P/R discussion, so...yeah.
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Look at the government this way. Why does the rag-tag fleet have a government that's essentially a carbon-copy of the one they had at the colonies? Does it really make sense? Nope. What's the tension between that and the fact they still put up the facade of a "government."
Oh, interesting. I wasn’t expecting that, but it makes sense. I mean, that has been pretty much Tom’s mantra since he showed up.
Yeah. But it goes deeper than Zarek's obvious shit-stirring.
Oh, I know. I'm just saying that the writers have been using Zarek as the embodiment of that idea so that someone can actually be the mouthpiece that says it outright so the viewers actually hear it articulated instead of just seeing it unfold. As far as the writing goes, it is very good in that respect in term of the fact that major themes are explored through a number of different devices, which makes them more meaningful and multifaceted. Zarek is, at least in the early part of the show, the mouthpiece for that idea about the government. He verbally sets up the idea. And it is interesting that they chose his character to do that, since there are a number of things about his character that make him very unsavory early on, so as this idea develops, I can see it really challenging the viewer.
General thoughts after reading your responses to Reap, Bosk:
I think it's important to remember at all times that, while most of the time the show functions on a purely secular level, there are several instances of just purely inexplicable events occurring. There is something out there, whether a spiritual being, or Cylon ploy, or something altogether different, that is moving certain seemingly irrational and imperfect characters in certain directions.
Yeah, I can totally see that. That idea is reinforced so many different ways thoughout. It's obviously important.
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BTW, Bosk, if you ever see the series bible floating around on the internet, avoid it. Aspects of it are held back until the finale for dramatic effect. It sorts steps on that if you know about it before then.
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Oh, okay. I didn't know about that. I do know about the Battlestar wiki (which is how I accidentally found about about those other two Cylon models that haven't been revealed yet when I was trying to look up something else--which I guess is going to ruin the surprise when a certain person undoubtedly returns from the dead at some point in the future), but I generally stay away from that as well, other than to go back and read the episode summaries after seeing episodes, just to pick up little tidbits that I missed.
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General thoughts after reading your responses to Reap, Bosk:
I think it's important to remember at all times that, while most of the time the show functions on a purely secular level, there are several instances of just purely inexplicable events occurring. There is something out there, whether a spiritual being, or Cylon ploy, or something altogether different, that is moving certain seemingly irrational and imperfect characters in certain directions.
Yeah, but (semi-spoiler), the show isn't meant to be viewed from the perspective that certain characters literally do things because a larger force than themselves move them that way (with one very important exception). All the characters are part of what Head Six calls "God's Plan," but they are actors within it. Not puppets.
I'm not sure about that. As Bosk also said, I saw the spiritual overtones of the show from the very beginning. Rewatching some parts here and there, they're even greater than I initially remembered. That's all I'll say for now.
I don't really have anything I want to say about those two sentences at the moment, other than to point out that, aside from the fact that they are written about a TV show that is about space Mormons, those are perhaps the two most amazing and profound sentences I have ever seen written by any mortal hand.
Well, Ronald Moore stated from the very beginning that he wanted to "prove" that Sci-Fi could be relevant social commentary! As for my sentences, I guess I do get a bit indulgent sometimes, channeling my inner lit snob :lol
Mmmm, yes. Unfortunately, that is a theme that seems to be lost on most of us in real life. VERY astute social observation by the writers, which is a bit surprising since it seems to me to be more of a "convervative" view of the world, and the writers are very liberal. Anyhow, I don't mean to turn this to a P/R discussion, so...yeah.
Not gonna say anything about this now, but I definitely hope we remember to pick this line of thought back up when the show ends.
I like Starbuck, but that probably says more about me than Starbuck.
Me too. But I don't think Bosk is even anywhere close to the best part of her character development.
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So, wasn't expecting to do this, but we got in another 3 episodes on Friday night: Collaborators, Torn, and A Measure of Salvation. The stuff onboard the Cylon ships is just SO interesting that we couldn't stop watching. I wasn't expecting answers this quickly to some of my questions. Well...I guess not really answers. But the show acknowledged those questions, and I guess will leave them hanging out there for awhile. Interesting about the "final five." I wonder why, according to Six, the other Cylons don't talk about them. Is there a religious reason? Are the final five seen as traitors that aren't to be discussed? Or is there perhaps some sort of inhibitor built into their programming that does not allow the other 7 models to talk about the final five? If either 1 or 3 are the reasons, this may explain why Sharon wouldn't tell Adama who the other Cylon agents in the fleet were. By now, I would have to assume that, other than her, none of the Cylons in the human fleet are of the seven known models. This is getting complicated and interesting...
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It certainly is complicated. Tons of great stuff related to the final five to come. It's interesting, almost every character went under scrutiny of being a possible final five in the fan world, Some common guesses were dead on and others were dead wrong. You've already seen a few hints as to who some of them are, at least possibly. I don't think it's clear when they decided who was who. There are indications they already knew who all five were a little earlier than where you are, but they clearly didn't know all of them early on in the series.
Anyone know when the writers decided on each of them?
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Interesting. So, wihtout giving anything major away: Is there some big relevation of the entire five at one time, or are they revealed separately?
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It's a mix.
You're past the, oh here's a cylon phase. They definitely upped where they could go with the cylon reveals.
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I'm not sure I remember when the five are revealed...
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Regarding the revelation of the final 5.
Well......it was great, but not perfect...................I'd give it a 4/5.
:biggrin:
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I'm not sure I remember when the five are revealed...
Most of them are reveal in the third season.
Anyone know when the writers decided on each of them?
I think Moore said he came in the writers room towards the end of writing the third season and decided them with the rest of the writers.
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Maybe you should spoiler those lines above.
They make it easy for bosk1 to deduce when the reveals are coming.
...but you must be wrong about when the writers were determining who was who. They must have known at least some by early in the third season (where bosk1 is). Some people even think they knew considerably earlier on one of the remaining. At least one does seem like it was left to the last hour before the reveal. Of course, the writers could have left a variety of red herrings in the show that could possibly play out to be 'valid' hints.
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Really? That's shocking to me that something that appears to be such a major plot point would be undecided until so late in the game.
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Hopefully we return to this when they are revealed. Can't really talk about possible hints towards the final five without giving them away.
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You might be right, yorost.
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No problem. (Although one of them was really already outed by Head 6 much earlier--wish I could find the quote).
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I absolutely love the show....but the concept of the final five and how the other Cylons weren't supposed to talk about them bothered me. If they were created, then why even program them to even know that there are the "final five" and that you're not supposed to talk about them?
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I take it you're holding back on who you saw as a Cylon in case you were wrong?
Who did 6 out? I don't recall anything involving her, I'm curious.
I think at the point you are at fans have found hints for four of the five. The question is if the writers were just giving themselves blank opportunities, had an idea who they wanted to be cylons, chose the final five to fit what they had previously laid as red herrings, or if it was accidental stuff fans found. I personally think Ron Moore had an inkling to who would be chosen early on but didn't share. It was admitted true for at least one of them, doesn't seem far fetched it was true for one or two others.
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I absolutely love the show....but the concept of the final five and how the other Cylons weren't supposed to talk about them bothered me. If they were created, then why even program them to even know that there are the "final five" and that you're not supposed to talk about them?
Bosk1 has not seen much involving the final five so we're currently avoiding spoilers. How much have you seen? The series answered those questions.
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Oh I've seen the entire series several times. What bothered me was I just thought the reasoning for it was weak.
(Possible Spoiler Alert)
As was much of the fourth season IMO
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I take it you're holding back on who you saw as a Cylon in case you were wrong?
Who did 6 out? I don't recall anything involving her, I'm curious.
I think at the point you are at fans have found hints for four of the five. The question is if the writers were just giving themselves blank opportunities, had an idea who they wanted to be cylons, chose the final five to fit what they had previously laid as red herrings, or if it was accidental stuff fans found. I personally think Ron Moore had an inkling to who would be chosen early on but didn't share. It was admitted true for at least one of them, doesn't seem far fetched it was true for one or two others.
****SPOILERS [for people who may be viewing the thread who haven't seen it yet]****
6 outed Ellen in Tigh Me Up, Tigh Me Down. Can't remember what she said, but she basically told Baltar that Ellen was a Cylon. Of course, Baltar's "Cylon detector" showed green for Ellen. And the detector seemed to work in showing red for Boomer. BUT there are a lot of possible exlanations for why the detector didn't read correctly. I believe Head 6, because she is CLEARLY not just a figment of Baltar's imagination and knows things he doesn't know. And besides, that was one of the spoilers I saw, so I know I'm right about it. :biggrin:
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OH THE SPOILERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Since we're talking about this, I'll just say that when Tigh Me Up, Tigh Me Down was written, I'm 99% certain the writers didn't actually know if Ellen was going to be a Cylon. Head Six loves to play with Baltar's mind.
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Head Six loves to play with Baltar's mind.
Obviously. But I can't think of a single instance in which she actually lied to him.
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OH THE SPOILERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Since we're talking about this, I'll just say that when Tigh Me Up, Tigh Me Down was written, I'm 99% certain the writers didn't actually know if Ellen was going to be a Cylon. Head Six loves to play with Baltar's mind.
The writers definitely didn't know. They didn't even have the concept yet of the final five.
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I guess I'll see when I get there, but even if they didn't have the "concept of the final five" in mind at that point, I find it hard to believe that they hadn't determined that she was Cylon, even if they didn't have anything more than that fleshed out.
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Ohhhh, THAT Six. :lol Also, It could be noted that Baltar suggests he may have faked that test, too, if I recall. Ellen was the character long hinted at being a Cylon. Moore stated he thought he would make her one from pretty early on. The fact that she showed up out of the blue like that really is highly suspicious, too.
OH THE SPOILERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Since we're talking about this, I'll just say that when Tigh Me Up, Tigh Me Down was written, I'm 99% certain the writers didn't actually know if Ellen was going to be a Cylon. Head Six loves to play with Baltar's mind.
The writers definitely didn't know. They didn't even have the concept yet of the final five.
I said it above, but to say it again... Moore knew from when he introduced her he thought she would become a Cylon. He was quoted somewhere saying that had been what he wanted. They didn't finalize it until closer to her reveal, but they were definitely leaning in that direction for a long time.
It was something they could have dropped, but they had definitely planted seeds.
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Ohhhh, THAT Six. :lol Also, It could be noted that Baltar suggests he may have faked that test, too, if I recall. Ellen was the character long hinted at being a Cylon. Moore stated he thought he would make her one from pretty early on. The fact that she showed up out of the blue like that really is highly suspicious, too.
OH THE SPOILERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Since we're talking about this, I'll just say that when Tigh Me Up, Tigh Me Down was written, I'm 99% certain the writers didn't actually know if Ellen was going to be a Cylon. Head Six loves to play with Baltar's mind.
The writers definitely didn't know. They didn't even have the concept yet of the final five.
I said it above, but to say it again... Moore knew from when he introduced her he thought she would become a Cylon. He was quoted somewhere saying that had been what he wanted. They didn't finalize it until closer to her reveal, but they were definitely leaning in that direction for a long time.
For t3h realz?
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:number6:
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I don't know why you're mocking me ReaPsTA. No they didn't know 100%, but they've clearly stated they had the idea to make her a Cylon the whole way. She was one of the most speculated characters to be a Cylon and the powers that be also said she was an easy choice despite not finalizing it until late.
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I don't know why you're mocking me ReaPsTA. No they didn't know 100%, but they've clearly stated they had the idea to make her a Cylon the whole way. She was one of the most speculated characters to be a Cylon and the powers that be also said she was an easy choice despite not finalizing it until late.
:eek
Oh fuck. Sorry. No mocking intended. Being potentially wrong makes me unable to spell properly.
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Why did Three tell the centurion to erase its own memory after shooting her? Since there would be a dead body with a bullet hole in its head and she would have to go through the resurrection process, her "death" would not exactly be a secret. Why the cover up?
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:eek
Oh fuck. Sorry. No mocking intended. Being potentially wrong makes me unable to spell properly.
Ah, ok, here's an official communique from Bradley Thompson. ...bosk1 AWAY!
Out of curosity, how long have you guys known who the final five are? I know Ron Moore's made comments that indicate that these were more recent decisions, but I was just curious at what point did you guys decide on who were going to be Cylons, and what really went into that decision. Thanks! ColonelKevin 16:55, 27 March 2007 (CDT)
Four of the five were recent. If memory serves, the fifth (which may change) we've been kicking around since about the end of Season One. -- Ngarenn 22:08, 15 June 2007 (CDT)
Obviously, Ellen is the reference, who was introduced around the end of season 1, and she was the front runner well before they made the final decision. When they've talked about it in most places they haven't gotten into when they started thinking about the characters, just how the final decisions came about. This sort of leads to the question of what hints prior to season 3 were really hints? Probably none exactly, but they could easily lay stuff down to use later. Ellen is a great example, they left her ambiguous to the fans but in the show everyone thought her proven human. They could go either way on her and it would basically fit that episode, though looking back her as a Cylon fits the ending better.
Anyways, when exactly did they start thinking about each character? We know when they made the decisions, but not necessarily when any of them were floating in the producers mind. Two of the other five seem like they may have been thinking that route prior to season 3. Maybe the clues were unintentional, maybe red herrings, maybe just leaving some options open, who knows. If I recall those two were already pretty popular guesses, though.
spoilers
These two were all but outed during season 3, pretty close to where bosk1 is currently watching. They definitely knew these two by early in season 3.
Anyways, one other may have had a hint prior to where bosk1 is. It fits, could be coincidence. Then one was, as far as I know, completely out of the blue. I wonder if they made that pick as late as possible.
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Why did Three tell the centurion to erase its own memory after shooting her? Since there would be a dead body with a bullet hole in its head and she would have to go through the resurrection process, her "death" would not exactly be a secret. Why the cover up?
Maybe to protect the centurion?
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Why did Three tell the centurion to erase its own memory after shooting her? Since there would be a dead body with a bullet hole in its head and she would have to go through the resurrection process, her "death" would not exactly be a secret. Why the cover up?
Maybe to protect the centurion?
??? That makes no sense to me.
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Remember why is Three doing that? She's not suppose to dig into that subject!
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It's AI, if it killed her it might be viewed as a crime so she protects a sentient being.
It could also to try and make sure there is no trace to the fact that she wanted to be shot. ...or in case she revealed anything. :dunno:
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It could also to try and make sure there is no trace to the fact that she wanted to be shot.
That's how I looked at it, since the Significant Seven aren't suppose to be digging into the Final Five.
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Well, now that you mention it, there is the obvious unanswered (so far) question of why she wanted to be shot at all. But I have no clue what, if anything, that has to do with the final five.
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...fuck
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She had just been part of a disturbing dream where she asked to be shot. Given that and the scenes that followed, I think the assumption is she felt something was hidden in her dreams. If nothing else, it was worth a shot!
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Ugh. The Final Five is definitely the worst non-finale aspect of BSG. Just so many miscalculations.
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The only problem I have with the final five arc so far is...well, actually nothing. :sosayweall:
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:tup
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The only problem I have with the final five arc so far is...well, actually nothing. :sosayweall:
That's my reaction to lots of GuineaPig's "problems" with the series :biggrin:
(Love ya, GP)
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That's my reaction to lots of GuineaPig's "problems" with just about anything.
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That's my reaction to lots of GuineaPig's "problems" with just about anything.
It's like you read my mind! :lol :lol
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Maybe I need to rename this one then... :scheavo:
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The only problem I have with the final five arc so far is...well, actually nothing. :sosayweall:
Exactly. :sosayweall:
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I hate Lee so much.
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What'd he do this time?
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You should hate Helo.
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What'd he do this time?
Basically, publicly humiliated his wife due to his lack of self-control.
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Payback for Billy. :p Really, she left Billy to be in this? I didn't like her the rest of the series, I don't think they ever recovered her character. You feel bad for her, that's all, but it's hard to not think she really shot herself in the foot. I guess she loved an image of Lee, not Lee, because this behavior kind of makes sense with him.
Almost everything surrounding Lee and Dualla was a negative part of the show. It was just a bunch of negative goings on.
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Payback for Billy. :p Really, she left Billy to be in this? I didn't like her the rest of the series, I don't think they ever recovered her character. You feel bad for her, that's all, but it's hard to not think she really shot herself in the foot. I guess she loved an image of Lee, not Lee, because this behavior kind of makes sense with him.
Almost everything surrounding Lee and Dualla was a negative part of the show. It was just a bunch of negative goings on.
Agreed on all counts. The only thing I would add is a side dish of loss of respect for Starbuck that has been building for awhile now too.
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Yeah, I can't remember how it all played out, but I recall it felt awkward the way things started going down between Starbuck and Anders. Their relationship had seemed rather genuine and fitting, then all of a sudden it was a farce.
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So, overall, Unfinished Business wasn't a great episode by any stretch, but it was a neat way for the writers to tie up a lot of loose ends and somewhat get past a lot of personal baggage people would have been carrying since the occupation (or to...ahem...take care of unfinished business. :lhk: ). Cleverly done episode that serves a clear, important purpose, but just unfortunately doesn't translate into good TV.
EDIT: And, FYI, I watched the extended version.
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Agree with all of that. It was a decent episode, and provided a good semi-reset for a lot of the characters and the issues they have going on.
As far as the Lee and Dee stuff, I'm still not sure what I make of it yet. In a way, I feel like their union was doomed from the start. Dee kinda betrayed Billy for her Lee infatuation, and I never believed that Lee was really that into Dee. I think from what we see in the show, it's pretty clear that he's meant to be with Starbuck.
That said, Lee could have tried to make it work, and he didn't. I'm not sure why, other than him really belonging with Starbuck. And considering her dishonest promiscuity, maybe Lee and Starbuck really do just deserve each other.
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EDIT: And, FYI, I watched the extended version.
I haven't seen it, but I feel like there's a relevant piece of information here.
I would recommend to anyone that they watch the Pegasus extended version over the original episode. It's just better in every conceivable way. The whole thing goes slower, so there's a really dark and creepy vibe to everything. Like, you know from the very beginning that things are going to go horribly. But the way it all adds up, eventually getting to the point where Helo and Chief will be executed is just masterful. It feels like watching an episode of premium cable. It's the show BSG was meant to be.
The extended cut of Unfinished Business is an editors cut. Unlike the extended Pegasus release, it's purposefully a rough version of the episode. More of a what-if thing. I have no idea if it's good or not. I haven't seen it. The fact you didn't like it though borderline shocks me. It's one of my favorite episodes of the series.
IMO, it's best to avoid any other extended cuts except for the series finale. There's an extended cut of an episode in particular near the end of the show that ruins one of the best and most important moments.
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I haven't seen the extended cuts for 4.5, which episode number is it?
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I haven't seen the extended cuts for 4.5, which episode number is it?
SPOILERS
I'm talking about the Islanded in a Stream of Stars extended cut. The ending of the TV version is beautiful. After the last few episodes of one terrible moment after another, finally something good happens. Adama realizes what he needs to do with Galactica and legitimately reconciles with Tigh. Zoom out on them with drinks on the couch with the Wander my Friends music. Tears. Scene.
In the extended cut, IT'S NOT THE LAST SCENE!!!!!!
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You're right, the way it aired sounds superior.
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EDIT: And, FYI, I watched the extended version.
I haven't seen it, but I feel like there's a relevant piece of information here.
I would recommend to anyone that they watch the Pegasus extended version over the original episode. It's just better in every conceivable way. The whole thing goes slower, so there's a really dark and creepy vibe to everything. Like, you know from the very beginning that things are going to go horribly. But the way it all adds up, eventually getting to the point where Helo and Chief will be executed is just masterful. It feels like watching an episode of premium cable. It's the show BSG was meant to be.
The extended cut of Unfinished Business is an editors cut. Unlike the extended Pegasus release, it's purposefully a rough version of the episode. More of a what-if thing. I have no idea if it's good or not. I haven't seen it. The fact you didn't like it though borderline shocks me. It's one of my favorite episodes of the series.
IMO, it's best to avoid any other extended cuts except for the series finale. There's an extended cut of an episode in particular near the end of the show that ruins one of the best and most important moments.
Good info. Thanks. I did watch both the regular and the extended versions of Pegasus (I didn't realize there was an extended version until after I watched the regular version). For Unfinished Business, I only watched the extended. But if later ones have spoilers, I'll stay away from the extended versions until afterward.
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It's not spoilers, you'd be fine with most of the extended cuts. Definitely watch the extended cut of Razor, although that might be your only choice on the dvd. The one ReaPsTA is specifically pointing out is just a bad artistic change.
for what it's worth, when I watch the series again it will be all of the extended versions.
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"Unfinished Business" is the boxing episode right? Can never remember episode titles, but if so, I always liked that one. Some BSG fans like to crap on that episode, but I've always thought it was one of the stronger Season 3 episodes.
Ugh. The Final Five is definitely the worst non-finale aspect of BSG. Just so many miscalculations.
The idea is fine, but the writers made the supreme mistake of writing by the seat of their pants.
When your show is heavily dependent on mysteries, intricate storytelling, foreshadowing and big reveals, it kinda behooves you to do a bit of fucking planning along the way.
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I love the way the final five arc pans out.
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By the beginning of season 3 they basically knew where they were going. It's nice to think they should have had the whole series planned ahead to make something like the final five seem perfect, I've thought that myself in the past. ...but they'd really be in trouble if they did that before finding out something wasn't working too well. The best plans know they're going to change pretty quickly. By not forcing themselves into things they could adapt much easier. They laid down some serious suggestions Ellen was a Cylon right away, but never committed either way on her until they had to.
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"Unfinished Business" is the boxing episode right? Can never remember episode titles, but if so, I always liked that one. Some BSG fans like to crap on that episode, but I've always thought it was one of the stronger Season 3 episodes.
Yeah, that was the one. There were definitely some things I liked about it. And I think it was a very clever idea, and they covered a lot of really important ground. I just ultimately felt like it wasn't something that was all that enjoyable to watch.
My wife is so addicted to this show now. Hardly a day goes by where she doesn't want to pop in an episode after the kids go to sleep. Last night was The Passage. Very good, but very depressing episode. And I really like the redemption of Kat.
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You're about to hit a biggie. :caffeine:
Great ending on Passage.
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Yeah. I kinda teared up again this morning just thinking about it.
Not sure what the "biggie" is, but I do know The Woman King is coming up soon! Woo! :victorydance:
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One thing worth pointing out about the show given that we're posting on a music forum - the music on the show is very advanced. Lots of key changes and complex harmonies and alternate time signatures and just subtly great writing.
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Not sure what the "biggie" is, but I do know The Woman King is coming up soon! Woo! :victorydance:
The next two bracket the midseason break, i.e. cliffhanger pair imminent.
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Sweet. Gotta love having them on DVD so I don't have to wait.
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One thing worth pointing out about the show given that we're posting on a music forum - the music on the show is very advanced. Lots of key changes and complex harmonies and alternate time signatures and just subtly great writing.
I love Bear McCreary's work on this show! Own all the soundtracks and it's just very good music!
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Another thing about Passage: Nice tie-in with the original series.
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By the beginning of season 3 they basically knew where they were going. It's nice to think they should have had the whole series planned ahead to make something like the final five seem perfect, I've thought that myself in the past. ...but they'd really be in trouble if they did that before finding out something wasn't working too well. The best plans know they're going to change pretty quickly. By not forcing themselves into things they could adapt much easier. They laid down some serious suggestions Ellen was a Cylon right away, but never committed either way on her until they had to.
Semi spoilers. There're no overt spoilers but I'm just being safe here.
When they introduced the concept of the final five they literally had no idea who they were going to be. I can understand that planning TOO much can be detrimental but there comes a time when you need to lay some groundwork and they really did not when it came to the final five. This is apparent with how certain plot threads are resolved.
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As someone who isn't there yet, I'll just say that I wish Baltar had used different terminology. Given the context in which the term "final five" arose, that term is very misleading. He should have just said "other five," or something like that.
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We just had a sizable discussion on this. They may not have decided until closer to the reveals, but they had an idea on 1-4 of them at the beginning of season 3. They definitely had inclinations towards 2-3 of them by the point bosk1 is. Ellen, they have come out and said they were thinking her as a Cylon since season 1. Where we misread their interviews is that we take them saying they made decisions at certain points as being the first time they gave it thought. They could drop suggestions on characters without forcing themselves into making them Cylons.
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Over the weekend: The Eye of Jupiter, Rapture, Taking A Break From All Your Worries. Pretty good set of episodes, and some interesting turns of events (although not the HUGE turns I was expecting). Can't help but wonder whether the Threes being boxed was planned, or whether Xena was just too expensive to keep around.
Next up: THE WOMAN KING!!!
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Can't help but wonder whether the Threes being boxed was planned, or whether Xena was just too expensive to keep around.
Probably both. The writers probably knew they couldn't keep Lucy Lawless around forever either because it was expensive or she would have other work to do, so they came up with a satisfying reason for her to not be on the show.
Over the weekend: The Eye of Jupiter, Rapture, Taking A Break From All Your Worries. Pretty good set of episodes, and some interesting turns of events (although not the HUGE turns I was expecting).
From an overall plot standpoint, Eye of Jupiter and Rapture don't do too too much. But they do contain one of the most mindblowing moments of the series - Adama nearly nuking the planet. When Roslin reminds Adama that Lee is on the planet, the look on his face is disturbing at best. Also, I love the way it plays. Every little piece of minutiae associated with the process of launching nuclear weapons (a) Underscores how big a deal it is and (b) Adds to the suspense because you see how Adama methodically goes through each piece of it. You feel like it's only a matter of time until he kills his own son.
Next up: THE WOMAN KING!!!
I'm sorry...
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Over the weekend: The Eye of Jupiter, Rapture, Taking A Break From All Your Worries. Pretty good set of episodes, and some interesting turns of events (although not the HUGE turns I was expecting).
From an overall plot standpoint, Eye of Jupiter and Rapture don't do too too much. But they do contain one of the most mindblowing moments of the series - Adama nearly nuking the planet. When Roslin reminds Adama that Lee is on the planet, the look on his face is disturbing at best.
Yes, but completely justified. I mean, as terrible an act as it is to make the decision to nuke his own people, the context of knowing that the Cylons, who had completely wiped out the populations of 12 planets filled with humans, and were now on their way to find the 13th and final planet where humans lived... He just couldn't let that happen. The Cylons potentially gaining information that would allow them to find earth would have been just unthinkable.
Every little piece of minutiae associated with the process of launching nuclear weapons (a) Underscores how big a deal it is and (b) Adds to the suspense because you see how Adama methodically goes through each piece of it. You feel like it's only a matter of time until he kills his own son.
Except that (c) we've seen nukes launched plenty of times throughout the series, and it has never taken that much logistical hoop-jumping. Seems like a continuity error to me.
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I love everything coming up with Baltar!
Eye of Jupiter and Rapture did more than most give them credit for, if you ask me.
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Oh, yeah. Those episodes DID do a lot. But one thing they didn't do was resolve some big, unanswered questions. That's all I was saying. It seemed like they would. But they basically just teased those questions even further.
One other thing I noted: Gallactica appears to have taken further damage. I know there will be a big space fight at some point in time. There just has to be. But the odds of success on the part of the humans are becoming astronomically slim. Can't wait to see how this is resolved.
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Like I said, I don't think they get as much credit as they deserve.
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Except that (c) we've seen nukes launched plenty of times throughout the series, and it has never taken that much logistical hoop-jumping. Seems like a continuity error to me.
Mmm. I can't remember another moment in the series where a Battlestar fired nukes except for an episode you haven't seen yet, and I remember some of the procedural stuff being there.
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Maybe I'm confused and they didn't use nukes, but I thought they did in some of the other battles with basestars.
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They did, but they weren't fired from Galactica. It was landed on the basestar with a raptor.
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No, that wasn't what I was thinking of. Oh well, doesn't matter much anyhow.
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Oh, I guess I should also say that Eye of Jupiter/Rapture outed another of the Five. I mean, not explicitly, but if you were paying attention, there is no other explanation for certain things happening other than one character being a Cylon.
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Tell us the one you got, and if you want us to confirm it.
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Oh, I guess I should also say that Eye of Jupiter/Rapture outed another of the Five. I mean, not explicitly, but if you were paying attention, there is no other explanation for certain things happening other than one character being a Cylon.
Hahaha. I would literally bet my life on what character you're going to say.
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Oh, I guess I should also say that Eye of Jupiter/Rapture outed another of the Five. I mean, not explicitly, but if you were paying attention, there is no other explanation for certain things happening other than one character being a Cylon.
Hahaha. I would literally bet my life on what character you're going to say.
SPOILERS
One of two, anyways. Likely the one outed from Eye of the Jupiter. Could be he deduced the only obvious answer from Three's apology.
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*SPOILERS*
Tyrol. There's no other explanation for him being drawn to the temple as he was.
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Would you like us to confirm/deny it?
What did you make of Three's comments after she saw the five?
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Would you like us to confirm/deny it?
Either way.
What did you make of Three's comments after she saw the five?
Hmmm, that's interesting. Not sure what that referred to. I'm trying to think of who in the series something has been done to that would make her apologize. I guess there's a certain character who has something in common with the title of this episode and who was also...intimate with the other of the Five that I already know. That's the only thing I can think of. That would make sense. Unless something happened to some other character we aren't aware of yet, or that I am forgetting. But I think the one I just referred to makes the most sense.
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Yes, Tyrol is one of them, this episode outed him. He was already high on people's lists for being a cylon, this just solidified it. Most of the arguments against him were just that he was too human. Some people thought they were laying ground for him since season 1, though I don't see it. A decent chance, although not clear, that they were thinking him at the end of season 2. Cavil's conversations with him were really interesting, telling Tyrol he feared he was a cylon. A lot of people like to forget that these two episodes made certain characters clearly final five.
Not spoilers, but some discussion on who Three might have been referring to... No names, but it may help you in deducing who one of the other final five is... This is a mix of stuff discussed at the time and some information you spoiled yourself to...
In the context of the show, Three could have been outing one of two of the final five. One is Ellen, but since it was a purposeful hint and they still hadn't finalized the decision on her it doesn't make sense for it to be her. Her argument is nice, though. "You were right" to Baltar is that he knew Ellen was a cylon because he lied on her test to make it green. Baltar told her about this at some point and Three is sorry she is dead (assuming they somehow knows she is dead, that's a stretch). She was killed quietly, I don't think either her or Baltar could know that. The other possibility requires tracking which model three this is and some deductions. That's the one I buy, it points right at someone, it just doesn't answer what Baltar was right about. Maybe it was outing both of them.
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Okay, well let me just put this out there:
SPOILERS--IF YOU HAVEN'T SEEN THE SHOW AND DON'T WANT TO KNOW, JUST STAY OUT OF THE THREAD, OKAY?!
Alrighty then...
So, Tyrol. Yeah, the conversations with Cavil are interesting. Does he realize Tyrol is a Cylon? The seven numbered models, from what I understand, do NOT know. Is Cavil somehow the exception? Being the #1 model and, presumably, the earliest, that could be. Not sure.
But Tyrol being outed has some other interesting implications. Assuming I understand the "rules" correctly, by process of elimination, Callie is NOT a Cylon because Cylons cannot have children together. And that also means Hera is not the only human/Cylon in existence. But the Cylons likely have no idea of this.
Is Tyrol more affirmatively outed at any point in time? I mean, I know it should be obvious after this episode, but his there anything more conclusive done down the road? I don't want to know what it is, just a yes or no.
Regarding Three, I thought she might be referring to Saul Tigh. The apology and "what have we done?" attitude makes it clear that she feels the Cylons wronged whoever of the Five she was talking to, and Saul with his missing eye seemed the likeliest candidate.
But also interesting about the "you were right" comment. It's hard for me to imagine what she meant. But here's just an abstract thought: One thing Baltar has said recently that seems of some significance was his comment about the Hybrids, that nothing they say is just gibberish. I wonder if Three may have been acknowledging his opinion of the Hybrids, which would then make some clue that the Hybrid dropped become important. Hmm...
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SPOILERS--IF YOU HAVEN'T SEEN THE SHOW AND DON'T WANT TO KNOW, JUST STAY OUT OF THE THREAD, OKAY?!
So, Tyrol. Yeah, the conversations with Cavil are interesting. Does he realize Tyrol is a Cylon? The seven numbered models, from what I understand, do NOT know. Is Cavil somehow the exception? Being the #1 model and, presumably, the earliest, that could be. Not sure.
But Tyrol being outed has some other interesting implications. Assuming I understand the "rules" correctly, by process of elimination, Callie is NOT a Cylon because Cylons cannot have children together. And that also means Hera is not the only human/Cylon in existence. But the Cylons likely have no idea of this.
:slowclap:
All will be addressed in one form or another!
SPOILERS--IF YOU HAVEN'T SEEN THE SHOW AND DON'T WANT TO KNOW, JUST STAY OUT OF THE THREAD, OKAY?!
Is Tyrol more affirmatively outed at any point in time? I mean, I know it should be obvious after this episode, but his there anything more conclusive done down the road? I don't want to know what it is, just a yes or no.
Yes.
SPOILERS--IF YOU HAVEN'T SEEN THE SHOW AND DON'T WANT TO KNOW, JUST STAY OUT OF THE THREAD, OKAY?!
Regarding Three, I thought she might be referring to Saul Tigh. The apology and "what have we done?" attitude makes it clear that she feels the Cylons wronged whoever of the Five she was talking to, and Saul with his missing eye seemed the likeliest candidate.
Three has no known connection to Tigh in the series, though. It was considered a possibility, some people argued it, but there's no screen time evidence to back the conclusion up. Remember she was obsessed with Hera, it's not even clear she had more than a passing interest to the Resistance, as far as I recall.
SPOILERS--IF YOU HAVEN'T SEEN THE SHOW AND DON'T WANT TO KNOW, JUST STAY OUT OF THE THREAD, OKAY?!
But also interesting about the "you were right" comment. It's hard for me to imagine what she meant. But here's just an abstract thought: One thing Baltar has said recently that seems of some significance was his comment about the Hybrids, that nothing they say is just gibberish. I wonder if Three may have been acknowledging his opinion of the Hybrids, which would then make some clue that the Hybrid dropped become important. Hmm...
Tough call, not sure this was ever clearly supposed to point backwards in the show or forwards. If you skipped my hidden paragraph above it's possible this pointed to Ellen, confirming that he faked the test and then told Three. I don't buy it, though, Ellen was a leading candidate for being a final five but they had not decided on it fully, yet. ...that's not good enough for a direct hint. Also, there's no reason to suspect they knew she was dead, so she probably wasn't remorseful regarding Ellen.
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Yeah, it doesn't seem to refer to Ellen either. Going back to Saul, I know she personally doesn't have any connection to him, at least, nothing that has been revealed so far. But I took her apology as, not necessarily "I'm sorry for what *I* did to you," but more of "I'm so sorry for what *we* did to you." I mean, think about it. Assuming she learned that Tigh was a Cylon, he was tortured and maimed. Even if she personally didn't do that, it is highly likely that she would have felt guilt over it once faced with him like that. I'm not saying this has to be the only explanation, but it is one that makes sense to me. And given that I am reading from your posts that there is never anything conclusive presented later in the show that would tell you specifically what she was referring to, I suspect I will grow more and more attached to this position as time goes on.
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SPOILERS--IF YOU HAVEN'T SEEN THE SHOW AND DON'T WANT TO KNOW, JUST STAY OUT OF THE THREAD, OKAY?!
So, Tyrol. Yeah, the conversations with Cavil are interesting. Does he realize Tyrol is a Cylon? The seven numbered models, from what I understand, do NOT know. Is Cavil somehow the exception? Being the #1 model and, presumably, the earliest, that could be. Not sure.
But Tyrol being outed has some other interesting implications. Assuming I understand the "rules" correctly, by process of elimination, Callie is NOT a Cylon because Cylons cannot have children together. And that also means Hera is not the only human/Cylon in existence. But the Cylons likely have no idea of this.
:slowclap:
All will be addressed in one form or another!
Just realized something else about this. So far, as far as human/Cylon offspring, as far as I know, we only have two. And those two are a boy and a girl. I wonder if there is any significance to that.
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I do think she referred to someone conclusively. Ellen was one of the best two targets, but she doesn't work with the remorse issue. She still might have been hinted at with the "you were right," though. Anyone without a direct on screen connection to Three just doesn't work as well as someone we were directly shown to have interaction with her.
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SPOILERS--IF YOU HAVEN'T SEEN THE SHOW AND DON'T WANT TO KNOW, JUST STAY OUT OF THE THREAD, OKAY?!
So, Tyrol. Yeah, the conversations with Cavil are interesting. Does he realize Tyrol is a Cylon? The seven numbered models, from what I understand, do NOT know. Is Cavil somehow the exception? Being the #1 model and, presumably, the earliest, that could be. Not sure.
But Tyrol being outed has some other interesting implications. Assuming I understand the "rules" correctly, by process of elimination, Callie is NOT a Cylon because Cylons cannot have children together. And that also means Hera is not the only human/Cylon in existence. But the Cylons likely have no idea of this.
:slowclap:
All will be addressed in one form or another!
Just realized something else about this. So far, as far as human/Cylon offspring, as far as I know, we only have two. And those two are a boy and a girl. I wonder if there is any significance to that.
Congratulations. You have now officially thought more about the Final Five than the writers did when coming up with them.
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...and you're too harsh of a critic towards the show regarding the final five. They did think out the answers to these whether you liked how or when they did it. There was no reason they had to have plotted out what they would do with Tyrol's baby early on, just because questions existed doesn't mean they had to be answered. His first question, I'm pretty sure that was answered in their minds by the time they settled on most of the final five.
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Yeah, I mean, whether we as the audience might like it or not, writers for a show usually don't have an entire four seasons (or even one full season, for that matter) completely written out or thought out in advance. Sometimes, you just don't work out the details until later. Sometimes, you start shooting and realize something needs to be changed to work onscreen. Other times, you make changes or fill in gaps as you go for other reasons. It might be nice ideally to assume they would sit down and write all the details in advance, but that's just not realistic and is usually not how it works. What really matters is whether or not the show is enjoyable. It is. That pretty much ends the issue as far as I'm concerned. I don't care that it may be flawed. It's a frakking TV show, not life or death.
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Master plans run a huge risk of going astray with audiences, too. Leave too many allusions early on and you might find yourself forced into something audiences aren't responding to. You also have to accept that as late as the second half of season 2 they were trying to decide if they were a serial or episodic show. They did what they did, left themselves options and went with the flow.
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^Excellent post. In a way, the latter half of Battlestar is a pretty cool microcosm of the show from the Cylon point of view. That is, you can try and plan everything out, but there's always some unknown factor or some surprise that might come up, and even the best and most diligently laid out plans can wind up not working out.
I started watching the show again over the hurricane. Got through the miniseries and the first episode. Watching it again, I've picked up on a lot of things I missed before. I always felt like the series had completely changed course by the ending into something different that was still awesome. But now I feel like many of the things that happened in the end are in perfect thematic harmony with the beginning of the show.
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...as late as the second half of season 2 they were trying to decide if they were a serial or episodic show.
Interesting comment. From looking at the short episode descriptions on the DVD boxes, it looks like a lot of the episodes I have coming up may focus a lot on more "episodic" tangents and less on big picture issues. But then again, TSCC season 2 did a lot of that as well, and most of those episodes appeared to be somewhat tangential to the big plot, and then the finale somehow managed to reach back through the season and tie up all of those loose ends and make all of those prior episodes fit together rather than being the nonsequiturs I initially thought they were.
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The show isn't episodic at this point, but they did try to make most episodes something of their own. There were almost always serial plot lines running through each episode, though, viewers jumping in and out could easily be confused by the changing situations of characters. Ron Moore was closely tied to Deep Space Nine. I think of Deep Space Nine as an episodic show with strong serial elements. I think of Battlestar Galactica as a serial show with strong episodic elements. This was sort of an evolution of what he was producing in the final two seasons of DS9.
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Episodic episodes and serial shows are different kinds of storytelling. Serial shows let you hit upon bigger arcs and bigger themes and bigger emotions with more developed tension and more sophisticated plotting. Episodic shows let you really explore individual ideas and nuances that are a distraction in a serialized arc.
The thing is, BSG by design handles the serialized stuff better. As much as the show wanted to be about the little details, its biggest strengths from the beginning were the bigger things. The attention to detail and nuance always worked best in service of the bigger emotions. When the show went episodic, it often had a problem with the smaller conceptual ideas feeling overstuffed with inappropriately big emotion.
Black Market is a perfect example of this. Simple concept about there being a Black Market in the fleet that Lee has to deal with. The moral ambiguity of the situation forces him to confront his own dark side. Perfect. But then they throw in Lee having a serious girlfriend before the end of the world. And he's seeing a prostitute with a kid who reminds him of her. And on and on and on and on and on. It was too much, and it actually undermined the message of the episode. The fact Lee was trying to save a child from being sold into prostitution was more meaningful than his own emotional complexity.
The episodic BSG shows worked best when they handled major character arcs. Scar dealt with a lot of major Starbuck demons. Unfinished Business hit on some of the most fundamental character arcs of the series. Downloaded handled Boomer and Caprica Six's character development over one episode. It focused on the bigger things simply being handled in a shorter amount of time.
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...and you're too harsh of a critic towards the show regarding the final five. They did think out the answers to these whether you liked how or when they did it. There was no reason they had to have plotted out what they would do with Tyrol's baby early on, just because questions existed doesn't mean they had to be answered. His first question, I'm pretty sure that was answered in their minds by the time they settled on most of the final five.
IIRC, the commentary for the episode in question (the one that resolves the specific continuity error we're talking about) more or less confirms that Moore completely didn't think about that particular problem with the Chief. And the decision about who the Final Five was, I think, more or less made on the spot when they got to writing the finale.
The show isn't episodic at this point, but they did try to make most episodes something of their own. There were almost always serial plot lines running through each episode, though, viewers jumping in and out could easily be confused by the changing situations of characters. Ron Moore was closely tied to Deep Space Nine. I think of Deep Space Nine as an episodic show with strong serial elements. I think of Battlestar Galactica as a serial show with strong episodic elements. This was sort of an evolution of what he was producing in the final two seasons of DS9.
The show became a lot more episodic during season 3 because of network pressure, and budget restraints.
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IIRC, the commentary for the episode in question (the one that resolves the specific continuity error we're talking about) more or less confirms that Moore completely didn't think about that particular problem with the Chief.
So? You don't like when they thought about it, but they did think about it. It's not something they had to answer right away whether they trapped themselves with it or not.
And the decision about who the Final Five was, I think, more or less made on the spot when they got to writing the finale.
We've been discussing this for the last week or two, it's getting tiring. The decision came during season 3, but that doesn't mean nobody was thinking about them earlier. Ellen (bosk1 knows about her and Tyrol, no others) is the perfect example. Some interviews they talk about how they left the decision until the very end, but they have also confirmed they were considering making her a cylon since she was first introduced. 'Hints' to the final five are very scarce, most come in season 3 outside of Ellen. I've never seen the show runners confirm or deny them, for the most part it hasn't been asked or they avoid answering the one time I recall. They're open to many possibilities, red herrings forgotten about, accidents that ended up leading them to picking the final five, purposeful since someone wanted to make them a cylon, etc. Back to Ellen, they drop some ambiguous hints and sat on it for many seasons. They didn't have to, but they did eventually play the card. Midway through season 3 their are about 3 characters with bullseyes on their backs, and since they all turned out to be cylons...
The show became a lot more episodic during season 3 because of network pressure, and budget restraints.
Middle/end of season 2 was the most episodic the show got, the channel was already putting pressure on them. Budget constraints hinder being pure serial, possibly, but as has been pointed by a few the show maintained an episodic structure while being pretty serial. Viewers skipping an episode or two could get lost easily enough concerning the situations characters were in. Episodes tended to push the show forward instead of end with reset buttons, a la The Next Generation.
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IIRC, the commentary for the episode in question (the one that resolves the specific continuity error we're talking about) more or less confirms that Moore completely didn't think about that particular problem with the Chief.
So? You don't like when they thought about it, but they did think about it. It's not something they had to answer right away whether they trapped themselves with it or not.
Uh, the when is kind of important. Thinking about the implications of characters being suddenly revealed as Cylons after you've already broadcast it to the world is probably the wrong time to do it.
I'm not averse to shows making things up as they go along; there are some great examples of it working (including, I'd argue, the beginning of seasons 2 and 3 of BSG) and with the right sort of plot or atmosphere the feeling of the writers struggling to deal with things can manifest itself brilliantly in the actions of the characters. But when we're talking about things that are hugely important structurally, fundamentally, thematically, to the show's past and future, I think it behooves any writing staff to think a little about what they're doing beforehand.
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I guess we'll disagree on Tyrol's baby. It generated so much discussion among fans I always thought it worked out well, and they had multiple routes to go with it.
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I guess we'll disagree on Tyrol's baby.
I, for one, hated that.
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We're not talking about opinions on how the story went, just whether it mattered they didn't have answers or didn't realize the question when they decided on Tyrol as a cylon.
I thought they did some things great and some things terrible regarding the baby situation.
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We're not talking about opinions on how the story went, just whether it mattered they didn't have answers or didn't realize the question when they decided on Tyrol as a cylon.
I thought they did some things great and some things terrible regarding the baby situation.
I just didn't like how they resolved that.
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Hey, can we please stop having discussions that hint at the future of the show since arguably the main poster in this thread hasn't finished it?
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I just didn't like how they resolved that.
Neither did I...
SPOILERS
The thing is it started out good as the final five thought it was a half cylon. I don't know why they decided on the deus ex machina, it was lame and unnecessary. Callie getting airlocked was an awesome moment in the series, though.
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I just didn't like how they resolved that.
Neither did I...
SPOILERS
The thing is it started out good as the final five thought it was a half cylon. I don't know why they decided on the deus ex machina, it was lame and unnecessary. Callie getting airlocked was an awesome moment in the series, though.
Agreed with everything. Though I was sad that one of the few cute humans was killed off.
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You know I'm still here, right?
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You know I'm still here, right?
You DON'T HAVE to read. :P
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So...The Woman King...really wasn't all that bad.
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So...The Woman King...really wasn't all that bad.
Interesting...
- The doctor was obviously killing them. No suspense.
- The Saggitaron racism thing made a couple characters unnecessarily huge assholes for no reason. It's important to remember that this will never be brought up again. Thank god the writers abandoned it. I literally blank this episode from existence when watching the show, since I'm pretty sure that none of the broader continuity of the series relies on it.
- Waste of Helo, who's a great character.
- Wouldn't the Gemonese be the ones who don't take medicine? Remember, they're the colony that wholly opposed abortion earlier.
- Even the title sucks. I don't remember why it's called The Woman King, but it's related to a very small part of the episode.
- This is a problem with TV in general, but I hate when they introduce new characters who are apparently major parts of regular characters' lives. It never feels right.
- Really, I'm not sure Helo would be assigned this job.
- Really, if any of the colonies didn't accept medication, this would have already come up somehow. This isn't something that would have never mattered contextually until now.
- I cannot stress enough that introducing the notion of Saggitarons as outliers in Colonial society does not work here. It's impossible for this to have not been a crucial part of everything that ever happened in the show up to this point that we saw. Chief says the Saggitarons didn't fight in New Caprica. WHAT!? We only just learned about this!?!?!?
I can't go on. Even thinking about this episode is painful.
EDIT: Imagine if you were doing a show about America that took place before the civil rights movement. And then in season three you introduced the idea that Black People were legally not even considered people in many ways and were constantly subjected to racially based scorn, segregation, and violence. You would NEVER even think to do something so stupid.
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I think you are grossly overreacting and trying to draw parallels that don't apply. But whatever. I don't have to hate a TV episode merely because you do.
EDIT: But, yeah, the title was dumb. It was quoted directly from a very insignificant line of dialog that I wouldn't have even picked up on if I wasn't so familiar with the episode's title. It refers to the relatively insignificant character, Mrs. King, the mom of the 19-year-old kid who dies. She's the one who pushes Helo to take action. So the tile refers to "the woman, King."
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Yes you do.
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I think you are grossly overreacting and trying to draw parallels that don't apply. But whatever. I don't have to hate a TV episode merely because you do.
I agree. Battlestar is one of those shows with a lot of people claiming "fan consensus" about one thing or the other. Not Reap, really, but I've seen it. Lots of people claim there's some kind of consesus that the second half of the show sucks. I completely disagree.
I also liked "Black Market" and "The Woman King", two episodes "conceded" to be weaker ones, and didn't care for fan-favorites like "Unfinished Business" and "Scar".
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The thing is, though, Reap's right. The Woman King exists in a total vacuum, where the assumptions about Colonial society and the way people react to things were never represented before the episode or after. For one episode, there's flat out, total racism against a part of Colonial society that never existed before the episode and never was mentioned again afterwards, and people acted hugely out of character just to make the episode work.
Black Market's primary failure was "suddenly, Lee likes hookers, and oh yeah, totally had a girlfriend we only just got around to mentioning now." The Woman King doesn't even feel like it's part of the same series, and I kind of wonder how it got past the script stage without someone saying something.
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There were multiple references to the divisions of the colonies, if you weren't from a select few you were a lower class. That's what Zarek was, fighting because of the extreme prejudice and almost slavery of Saggitarius.
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I liked that, though. So much of the show focuses on the elite portion of the populace left; the Commander, his top men, the President, etc. It was nice to have a few episodes that reminded you that, elsewhere, life was still going for the fleet who weren't necessarily fighting the war.
There were multiple references to the divisions of the colonies, if you weren't from a select few you were a lower class. That's what Zarek was, fighting because of the extreme prejudice and almost slavery of Saggitarius.
That too.
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Yup, the show almost has an angle of being witnessed through Caprican eyes.
A major character also has a diatribe left about the state of Caprican prejudice. The issues were there, just not focused on. It didn't start or die with The Woman King.
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Ugh, "The Woman King."
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https://www.ign.com/articles/2012/11/05/battlestar-galactica-blood-and-chrome-to-make-online-debut
As first reported by EW.com, Machinima Prime will debut the webisodes, with the first available on November 9th. There will be ten webisodes total, ranging in length from seven to twelve minutes. Early in 2013, Syfy will then air the complete Blood and Chrome TV-Movie – before a Blu-ray and DVD release of an unrated version.
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Oh cool, I was hoping we'd get to see Blood and Chrome.
Sucks they cancelled it before even showing it. But I guess Syfy needed more reality shows about ghosts and zombies and stuff.
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Should be interesting, to say the least.
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Yeah, that was pretty stupid! More so after that trailer created so much buzz!
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Blood & Chrome Ep. 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pT79x4qM4FE&feature=youtu.be
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Is this something I can watch in the near future, or should I finish the series first?
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Is this something I can watch in the near future, or should I finish the series first?
I don't think it gave anything away.
I'm not sure how good it was though either.
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I really want to start watching again. Hopefully, the schedule lightens up here soon.
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Is this something I can watch in the near future, or should I finish the series first?
I doubt it because it's set in the first Cylon war.
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Is this something I can watch in the near future, or should I finish the series first?
I doubt it because it's set in the first Cylon war.
Not gonna watch them online, cause...well of the natural computer quality and stuff, but looking forward to it on Sci-Fi.
I actually have seen 2 series of Skins with the guy playing Adama....and he ain't bad. Of course I saw him as a rebellious british kid.
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Is this something I can watch in the near future, or should I finish the series first?
Yeah, you can go ahead and watch it. The first episode, at least.
I thought it was OK. Only one take away: that William Adama is just like Lee Adama, and it's presented to us in as many military cliches as possible.
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Is this something I can watch in the near future, or should I finish the series first?
Yeah, you can go ahead and watch it. The first episode, at least.
I thought it was OK. Only one take away: that William Adama is just like Lee Adama, and it's presented to us in as many military cliches as possible.
Mmmm.
My biggest issue with how they wrote Bill Adama in this series is that he's really good at being a fighter pilot and cocky.
I always imagined that part of the reason he related so closely with Starbuck is that she had the potential to be what he wished he was. He didn't fly vipers very much in the first Cylon war. He was an under achiever who felt he was in his dad's shadow. He let her get away with being a frak up because he knew he hadn't been a model soldier either.
Loved how his Raptor ECO had a flask. It's an obvious nod to colonel Tigh, but in a smart way.
Overall, I want to see where this goes. But right now it feels more like glorified fan fiction, especially since RDM isn't involved in any capacity I know of.
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Wow, haven't posted in here in awhile. Episode update:
3.15 A Day in the Life
3.16 Dirty Hands
3.17 Maelstrom
3.18 The Son Also Rises
3.19 Crossroads, Part I
Yes, I am indeed stuck in the middle of Baltar's trial. There is a lot that is really cool about this arc. There is also a lot that just seems silly and not well written. Oh well.
But I do believe 3.19 has outed the other 2 of the five. "Music, music, I hear music..."
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Ah, so you've met Romo Lampkin. :D
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Lee was the oddest part of this Baltar arc, but it was one of my favourite parts of the show.
The next episode is all kinds of awesome in my book!
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Ah, so you've met Romo Lampkin. :D
Yeah. Eh.
Lee was the oddest part of this Baltar arc, but it was one of my favourite parts of the show.
Yeah. I actually have a problem with how they wrote him in this part of the story. Broadly speaking, him making poor decisions based on emotion and going all in despite the consequences definitely is a hallmark of his character. But when you get down into the specifics of what he is doing, I don't buy him doing it. It just doesn't make sense coming from him.
The next episode is all kinds of awesome in my book!
You mean the conclusion of the trial, or are you referring to the kickoff of the next season?
Personally, I'm hoping that they'll call Cavil as a witness against Baltar and that he will be the final nail in Baltar's coffin. Yeah, I know that presents some logistical problems given that the nature of the human/Cylon relationship is a bit antogonistic, but sometimes you just have to put differences aside. They've already shown that there are places they know are likely to either have heavy Cylon traffice or are at least monitored by Cylons, so all the Colonials have to do is jump a ship out there to establish contact with the Cylons so they can tell them: "Hey, umm... Yeah, so we've got this trial going on right now, and we kinda need to subpoena Number One as a witness. So, uh, yeah, you've just been served. Send him over to testify at trial, or else he'll be held in contempt of court. And that's the last thing you guys need right now. So...yeah."
Then we could have the inevitable courtroom scene that plays out along the lines of:
Cavil: "You want answers?"
Lee: "I want the truth."
Cavil: "You can't handle the truth!"
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I meant the conclusion of the two-parter.
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The "Crossroads" two-parter has some great, great moments, and some utterly terrible ones.
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I'd say the last half of season three and some small patches in season four are the lowest points of the show. Thankfully the finale makes it all worthwhile.
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SPOILERS!!!
Wow, haven't posted in here in awhile. Episode update:
3.15 A Day in the Life
Unlike seemingly a lot of people, I like this episode. The moment where Adama gives Lee the law books with the note "For when we have the time" is devastating. Tough to even think about.
3.16 Dirty Hands
Probably the defining Adama episode. I think at one point he tells Tyrol "I'll line up ten Callies on the wall if I have to." It's really disturbing and chilling. On the other hand, Adama's always been a guy who needs people to ultimately fall in line. It feels out of character because it's unlikable, but it's actually exactly what he would do.
3.17 Maelstrom
Every season starting with the second, the show did a really personal and intense Starbuck episode that happened to be written and directed by the same people. Scar is my favorite, but all of them are really good. It's been a long time since I've seen this so I don't remember it well, but I do remember the whole Leoben dynamic being particularly fascinating.
Also, after you see the next episode, there are a couple really awesome behind-the-scenes stories related to this episode.
3.18 The Son Also Rises
3.19 Crossroads, Part I
Yes, I am indeed stuck in the middle of Baltar's trial. There is a lot that is really cool about this arc. There is also a lot that just seems silly and not well written. Oh well.
Not my favorite episodes, but good.
What about them do you find silly?
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SPOILERS!!!Wow, haven't posted in here in awhile. Episode update:
3.15 A Day in the Life
Unlike seemingly a lot of people, I like this episode. The moment where Adama gives Lee the law books with the note "For when we have the time" is devastating. Tough to even think about.
I liked it too. That moment was really cool. Why do you find it "devastating." I don't understand what you mean at all. I thought it was an amazing moment in so many different ways, but I have a hard time understanding how the word "devastating" even fits.
3.16 Dirty Hands
Probably the defining Adama episode. I think at one point he tells Tyrol "I'll line up ten Callies on the wall if I have to." It's really disturbing and chilling. On the other hand, Adama's always been a guy who needs people to ultimately fall in line. It feels out of character because it's unlikable, but it's actually exactly what he would do.
I agree. Interesting episode on a lot of levels.
3.17 Maelstrom
Every season starting with the second, the show did a really personal and intense Starbuck episode that happened to be written and directed by the same people. Scar is my favorite, but all of them are really good. It's been a long time since I've seen this so I don't remember it well, but I do remember the whole Leoben dynamic being particularly fascinating.
Also, after you see the next episode, there are a couple really awesome behind-the-scenes stories related to this episode.
Yeah, she's a complicated character. I still don't like her, but she definitely makes for some of the more entertaining moments and fascinatingly complex character development of the show. Adama's reaction at the end of the episode where he destroys his model ship was just amazing. One of the best personal moments in the entire series. Interestingly, I read that him smashing the ship was not planned, and just something he did extemporaneously during the shooting...much to the chagrin of the props department in light of the fact that it was a borrowed prop that was quite expensive. :lol
3.18 The Son Also Rises
3.19 Crossroads, Part I
Yes, I am indeed stuck in the middle of Baltar's trial. There is a lot that is really cool about this arc. There is also a lot that just seems silly and not well written. Oh well.
Not my favorite episodes, but good.
What about them do you find silly?
Part of it is, again, as I mentioned above, a lot of what Lee does seems consistent with his character only on the surface, but is actually very inconsistent. So his actions just seem contrived and silly. The other part of it is the representation of the legal process, both in terms of the legal arguments and strategies, and in terms of the court conduct itself. Just dumb.
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That's always a problem with a show or movie enters into your professional field, you're going to find a ton of flaws.
I do the same thing when shows or movies try to get into the psychology field. However, sometimes you just have to let it go to enjoy it.
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Yup, so many people ask me if I watch Numbers, but I can't stand the show.
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I realize that. And I'm trying to distance myself from that. But most shows that depict the justice system do a reasonable enough job that it doesn't bug me and I can overlook the things are aren't very realistic, but are sacrificed in the name of storytelling. Here, I just find myself saying, "Even though this is literally a fictional legal system from another planet, there's just no way a legal issue of this magnitude would be handled this way by these characters."
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This is Romo Lampkin.
(https://2.bp.blogspot.com/_91s-Zkod9Gc/TG-4jYlPhXI/AAAAAAAAJNM/R5x9DFS4IZ4/s1600/romo+lampkin.jpg)
And he disapproves of your argument.
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Romo Lampkin is a tool.
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This is Badger.
(https://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ltai1txkDE1qkabpmo1_500.jpg)
And you have insulted him.
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This is the Honey Badger
(https://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y280/bosk1/honeybadger.jpg)
And he don't care.
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I'll see you in court.
You might be a lawyer, but I'm Jewish, which somehow makes me a better lawyer.
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I realize that. And I'm trying to distance myself from that. But most shows that depict the justice system do a reasonable enough job that it doesn't bug me and I can overlook the things are aren't very realistic, but are sacrificed in the name of storytelling. Here, I just find myself saying, "Even though this is literally a fictional legal system from another planet, there's just no way a legal issue of this magnitude would be handled this way by these characters."
Maybe it would help to write off the malformed legal system to the malformed society they have. They basically don't have a court system surviving the apocalypse, did they? While I suppose the writers might have shot themselves in the foot trying to argue this was the actual system, maybe this is just a sad mock up strewn together of that system. Maybe even to their surviving legal experts it looks a farce.
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Of course, it could also just be that my attitude toward this part of the story is just being shaped negatively by my disgust at the fact that I know Baltar isn't going to be convicted and flushed out of the nearest airlock like he should be.
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This is Canton Everett Delaware III.
(https://i1046.photobucket.com/albums/b468/syntaxed/ponds%20daily/canton.png)
Welcome to America.
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Of course, it could also just be that my attitude toward this part of the story is just being shaped negatively by my disgust at the fact that I know Baltar isn't going to be convicted and flushed out of the nearest airlock like he should be.
This is really important, actually, and I hope we remember to discuss it when you finally get to the end.
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The end of the series, or the end of pt. II?
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The series. Hurry up!
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:dammitall:
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Frak!
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Of course, it could also just be that my attitude toward this part of the story is just being shaped negatively by my disgust at the fact that I know Baltar isn't going to be convicted and flushed out of the nearest airlock like he should be.
This is really important, actually, and I hope we remember to discuss it when you finally get to the end.
I'm curious what point you're getting at, can you pm me?
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This is former King of the Crossroads Demons and current King of Hell, Crowley
(https://puu.sh/1pWri)
And he'll take your soul now.
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My soul is my own now. I do not fight for you.
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Crossroads, pt. II - Well, all right then... All in all, this episode had some of the absolute best and some of the absolute worst the series has to offer. The courtroom stuff was just ridiculously, outrageously bad--to the point where I can barely stand it. But everything else...just...I'm overwhelmed with how cool it was. From the little things about Admiral Adama's and Roslyn's relationship, to All Along The Watchtower, to four of the Five coming together in the gym and deciding how to react to that, to Lee discovering Cara, to the camera work in the final scene...just... :clap:
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Some great, some awful is my appraisal, too. Although it looks like we disagree about what those things were.
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Yes, but you're almost always completely wrong, so I take it as a great self affirmation that you have the opposite opinion that I do on this.
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Yes, but you're almost always completely wrong, so I take it as a great self affirmation that you have the opposite opinion that I do on this.
:rollin :rollin :rollin
Not surprise you disliked the courtroom parts since that's touches into your real life job and it's always laughable when movies/tv do that, I for one didn't mind them but then again I've no earthly idea of what comes close to the real thing or not. Still, this episode, and the third season as a whole, I always loved and those final moments of the episode are just :metal !!
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I started season one for the first time last week, about half way through at the moment! Heard alot about this show and decided to give it a go. I like it so far but damn that Cylon Hottie Nr Six is really annoying and there are some characters that i'm not feeling at the moment but despite that i enjoy the show.
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I wrote up a list of the ten episodes that I thought best embodied BSG for another forum. Maybe I should post it here.
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I started season one for the first time last week, about half way through at the moment! Heard alot about this show and decided to give it a go. I like it so far but damn that Cylon Hottie Nr Six is really annoying and there are some characters that i'm not feeling at the moment but despite that i enjoy the show.
SWEET! Be careful not to go back and read earlier posts in this thread.
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Spilers since we have a new player, fine for bosk1:
OK, now you know all of the five. here's my almost complete rundown on possible hints or contributing factors to each being made a cylon.
Ellen: Ambiguous from the get go, strongly hinted Baltar covered up or faked the test. Admitted by the show runners they were thinking about her the whole time.
Tyrol: Some people thought his relationship with Boomer gave hints, I don't buy it. Cavil at the end of Season 2 says he fears he's a cylon. The Temple of the Five was his coming out party. Then he withstood the vacuum way better than his wife, in case you missed the Temple.
Anders: Anders survived pneumonia with no antibiotics and terrible living conditions with no explanation. Not unthinkable, but a cylon would have much better odds than a human of doing so. His groups continued survival on Earth would have been a handily explained if they were 'normal' cylons. This had helped make Anders a popular guess, though. The giveaway was Caprica Three's apology. She had meaningful screen time with three humans, Baltar, Cottle, and Anders. She tortured Baltar, but was at that point his lover. He was also soundly shown to be human an episode or two later. Cottle there wasn't anything to apologize for. Anders, she tried to murder face-to-face.
Tigh: The loss of his eye might have been symbolism. Otherwise the only possible hint is by close association with three of the others. I think they probably weren't thinking about him until late, but those two things played nicely.
Tory: Nothing that I know. I guess they just needed another one and didn't know what to do.
Anyways, Tory and Tigh were shockers. Tyrol and Anders had been popular guesses for some time.
Starbuck was another popular guess at this point. The cylon doctors should have recognized she was cylon when they had her on Caprica, though. She was just popular because she was seemingly killed.
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SPOILERS (okay for Bosk1)
Crossroads, pt. II - Well, all right then... All in all, this episode had some of the absolute best and some of the absolute worst the series has to offer. The courtroom stuff was just ridiculously, outrageously bad--to the point where I can barely stand it. But everything else...just...I'm overwhelmed with how cool it was. From the little things about Admiral Adama's and Roslyn's relationship, to All Along The Watchtower, to four of the Five coming together in the gym and deciding how to react to that, to Lee discovering Cara, to the camera work in the final scene...just... :clap:
One thing in the courtroom drama I'll defend - The big Lee speech could have been relentlessly terrible. But Jamie Bamber made a smart acting choice and played to the character's own internal frustrations rather than getting too too preachy. I'm still not quite sure how good the speech is, but it was at least acted right.
Now that you know Kara comes back, here's the other great Maelstrom story.
When the writers made the decision to kill Starbuck in that episode, they already knew she was coming back. But, they purposefully decided not to tell anyone this but Katie Sackhoff (the actress who plays her). This resulted in what Ronald D. Moore called a "mutiny" among the other cast members. At first, RDM tried just telling Edward James Olmos and Mary McDonnell (since they were kinda the elder statesmen of the cast), but eventually broke down and just told everyone what the plan was in order to calm things down.
"There's no business.... like show business....."
Can't wait until you see He That Believeth in Me. The inevitable Human/Cylon space battle is one of the best action scenes in the show.
Also, if you want to watch Razor, it was released between seasons 3 and 4, so now is technically the right time to do so.
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I started season one for the first time last week, about half way through at the moment! Heard alot about this show and decided to give it a go. I like it so far but damn that Cylon Hottie Nr Six is really annoying and there are some characters that i'm not feeling at the moment but despite that i enjoy the show.
SWEET! Be careful not to go back and read earlier posts in this thread.
Ahh thx for the heads up, i was just about too do that! :lol
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@yorost: You DO realize that for anyone using a dark theme, the white font is completely useless for hiding the text, right? :lol
And I completely disagree with you about who Three was apologizing to.
The last one you mention...I think she was a GREAT choice. We don't know a WHOLE lot about her character, but her position alone makes her revelation a very chilling one. Not knowing her intentions (or the intensions of the others), it's scary to think about the damage that could be done given her position.
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That's why I add the strikethrough, and I'm choosing the color based on the default theme since I assume most use that.
Anders makes the most sense given what we saw on screen. She would have had to not seen him to be apologizing to Tigh, Tory, or Tyrol.
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SPOILERS -- in response to REAP
SPOILERS (okay for Bosk1)One thing in the courtroom drama I'll defend - The big Lee speech could have been relentlessly terrible. But Jamie Bamber made a smart acting choice and played to the character's own internal frustrations rather than getting too too preachy. I'm still not quite sure how good the speech is, but it was at least acted right.
I completely agree with you. Even though I hated it, it was acted perfectly. And in terms of kind of explaining Lee's motivations over the last few eposides and credibly explaining why is character is doing what he's doing, the speech also did help to bridge the gap and make Lee's actions somewhat believable, so it served a purpose.
If I can find the time over the next week or so, I'll try to give some detail on how the entire trial went wrong in terms of being stupid and unbelievable.
Can't wait until you see He That Believeth in Me. The inevitable Human/Cylon space battle is one of the best action scenes in the show.
Yeah, I'm pretty intrigued. As I've mentioned, I don't see how there possibly CAN be any credible sort of space battle with the Galactica as damaged as it is. Even when it was in better shape earlier in the show, they were rightly afraid of going up against even a single basestar for more than a distraction mission to allow the fleet to jump away in retreat. Now that they are cornered and forced to fight because they can't run, I'm interesting in seeing what happens next. A cripped Galactica against multiple (they didn't say how many yet) basestars is such an imbalanced fight that it doesn't even have a prayer of being an "against all odds" win--there AREN'T even any odds on this one! :lol So something significant has to happen to change the odds, IMO. Dying to see what it is. BUT...
Also, if you want to watch Razor, it was released between seasons 3 and 4, so now is technically the right time to do so.
Yeah, it's the next DVD in order, and I had been wanting to watch it. But after Crossroads2, I can't wait to see what happens next chronologically in the series. What to do...
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Don't read Mr. Boom, you're OK Bosk.
The last one you mention...I think she was a GREAT choice. We don't know a WHOLE lot about her character, but her position alone makes her revelation a very chilling one. Not knowing her intentions (or the intensions of the others), it's scary to think about the damage that could be done given her position.
I always disliked this choice, but it was more because I had never care for her character and now she's thrust into this "important" role which I thought was like "well, she's not doing anything else important".
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@yorost: There is clearly plenty of room for debate. But for the record, I don't see your logic and I think you're completely wrong. :P
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@Dimi
The last one you mention...I think she was a GREAT choice. We don't know a WHOLE lot about her character, but her position alone makes her revelation a very chilling one. Not knowing her intentions (or the intensions of the others), it's scary to think about the damage that could be done given her position.
I always disliked this choice, but it was more because I had never care for her character and now she's thrust into this "important" role which I thought was like "well, she's not doing anything else important".
Well, as far as I can remember, she didn't even exist on the show prior to Billy's death (or maybe she was mentioned directly before). I just took it as, she was a member of Roslyn's staff, and after Billy died, was the next logical choice to be Roslyn's chief aid. But given the revelation of who she is, the fact that she is that close to the president and has access to pretty much any and all information the president has...I mean, that's pretty scary.
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Here's my list of ten episodes from the breadth of the series which I feel are most emblematic of this show; they are not a list of the ten best or my ten favourite. There are NO SPOILERS in the list, but if you don't want even any hints at what is to come, I wouldn't recommend reading it.
"33” - Season 1, episode 1
I opted not to include either part of the opening miniseries, not because they weren’t effective pieces of television, but rather that they were simply not as important in establishing the tone of the series to come as the season one premiere. “33” acted as a bold mission statement for Battlestar Galactica: not only did it prove the show could work in a week-to-week format, but it was an episode whose format, plot, and tone was radically different than the sci-fi shows that preceded it. Exposition and discovery are discarded in favour of dropping the viewer in media res, the consequences are massive, and most interestingly, the protagonists spend the entire duration of the episode as passive actors. This supremely written, acted, and produced episode defiantly staked out Battlestar Galactica’s territory, and remained one of the series’ best episodes.
“Kobol’s Last Gleaming, Part 2” - Season 1, episode 13
The show’s creator, Ronald D. Moore, was quite open about the creative process behind the show, and commented numerous times about the show’s predisposition to making things up as it went along. In a serialized program like Battlestar Galactica, this can have interesting results, as showed by the first season’s excellent finale: a spontaneous action resulted in a thrilling series of episodes as both the show’s characters and writers improvised, and another creative impulse led to a drawn-out and completely unsatisfying storyline and conclusion. The show’s willingness to throw things at the wall was often as exciting and interesting as it could be frustrating.
“Flight of the Phoenix” - Season 2, episode 9
Battlestar Galactica, while being largely serialized, also did a large number of stand-alone episodes, with mixed results. At its best, like in “Flight of the Phoenix”, the show could pull off a character-based, stand-alone episode that was both and compelling and moving. While the show sometimes suffered from poor characterization, this simple story provided a satisfying, emotional conclusion to a character arc without being overwrought or sappy. Best of all, while the episode’s plot may have been contained completely within the episode, the effect upon the crew (and of the thing they create) lives beyond it.
“Resurrection Ship, Part 2” - Season 2, episode 12
The Pegasus arc was Battlestar Galactica at its best, not only introducing one of the show’s best characters and providing a fascinating re-analysis of its central one, but also bringing the simmer of mid-season 2 to a boil. I couldn’t let myself get away with not including an episode from it, let alone what I consider to be the show’s best hour. This episode contains all of the best elements Battlestar Galactica brought to the table: compelling characters, interesting stories, great drama, and bitchin’ space battles. Truly great stuff.
“Downloaded” - Season 2, episode 18
Rather than stick with a faceless enemy for the show’s duration, Battlestar Galactica sought actively to build-up and humanize (rim-shot) it’s supposed cast of villains. While numerous previous episodes had escaped the confines of the Galactica, this episode largely abandoned its main cast in order to explore their opposites, along with a several new characters. It’s a fascinating episode in both its concept, its exploration and commitment to a murky morality, and the depth of consequences it entailed.
“Collaborators” - Season 3, episode 5
Battlestar Galactica knocked out a couple of awesome bottle episodes, and while this episode is definitely quieter than the ones that preceded it, it is by no means of inferior quality (I’d consider it the second best amongst that five episode arc). While a lesser show might’ve been content with a happier conclusion, Battlestar Galactica pursued all of the ugliness and fear contained in the previous episodes to its logical and terrifying conclusion. The show was often at its best when its characters (and the audience) was at its most fearful; the reason the “war on terror” gets mentioned so much with regards to this show is its oft-pregnant paranoia, which is on full display here.
“The Eye of Jupiter” - Season 3, episode 11
The same year that Battlestar Galactica premiered, another sci-fi show debuted on TV: Lost. As the two shows progressed, Battlestar Galactica definitely veered toward its network counterpart, much to my dismay (although I will note, many enjoyed season three and four just as much as the previous seasons). “The Eye of Jupiter” is definitely a notable turning point in the show’s evolution, as it veered more and more towards building the sort of “mythology” that Lost was known for, indulging in religious prophecy, mysticism, and the supernatural in increasing amounts.
“Crossroads, Part 2” - Season 3, episode 20
This was the point where the show “jumped the shark” for me. By this point, its metamorphosis into a clone of <i>Lost</i> was more or less complete, with all the disastrous character and plotting decisions that entailed. While there were elements of the show that were still enjoyable afterwards, it was never the same. It’s a shame there’s so much embarrassing stuff in this episode, because there is also some legitimately fantastic material, including a very moving character moment, and an excellent reflection on the nature of mob mentality and criminal justice .
“Blood on the Scales” - Season 4, episode 16
The show’s descent was into full swing by this episode, which is chock-full of shockingly awful characterization, shameful reversals of one of the show’s previous great strengths (its commitment to gray morality), and an embarrassing cop-out of an ending. A hallmark of season four was characters doing things just for the sake of the plot, and the build-up and conclusion to this two-parter was rife with it. But hey, lots of people love this episode, so what do I know? It is really interesting to see how marked a shift in opinion there is over the fourth season.
“Daybreak, Parts 2 and 3” - Season 4, episode 22
It takes a lot from a finale to impress me. But it’s not my high standards that cause me to loathe this series finale. Season four as a whole was a mess in terms of plot, characterization, and the show’s ever-more complex mythology, and this episode embodies the worst of it all. I’d be more OK with this episode if it’s awfulness was self-contained, but the terrible conclusions it gives to the plots and questions that stretch backwards from it retroactively damage the rest of the series. How can I enjoy the characters and plots as much as I used to, knowing the stupid fates that await them at the end of the series? Not to mention that the episode advocates an incredibly dangerous and destructive approach to technology that is both amusingly short-sighted and smugly hypocritical. It’s capped off by a horrific montage that is so reductionist, it’s insulting to the people who enjoyed the first three or so seasons of complex, well-written drama. Fuck this episode.
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I skipped the season 4 episodes, but read the rest. While I enoyed reading the critique, you often pretty much just say your opionion without citing any examples. For example, in Crossroads2, you menion the show containing a lot of "embarassing" moments, but you don't say what a single one of them are. That makes it hard to attach any meaning or have any real discussion. Would be better if you gave examples.
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@yorost: There is clearly plenty of room for debate. But for the record, I don't see your logic and I think you're completely wrong. :P
That's fine, but for what it's worth this was a common opinion at the time and not one I hatched myself. It's just the only one that has made any sense to me. A lot of people settled on Anders after that episode. It's not even completely clear they knew who the reference was to, though. Ellen makes no sense since they were not 100% sold on her, and after the show was over Moore said somewhere that after they finally decided 100% on Ellen (even later than where you currently are) they more or less retconed it to mean Ellen. ...so when they wrote it it had not meant Ellen, but they eventually interpreted it that way. Rather odd. By the end of the show I am certainly wrong, but at the time of the episode it may have been a valid conclusion. Unfortunately, after the show is the only time I know of that anyone answered the question of who Three was referring to, so it's still an open question as to what was being thought of at the time. ...but it wasn't Ellen.
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I never said it referred to her. I said it referred to her husband, which far and away makes much more sense to me than it referring to ANY of the others.
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I skipped the season 4 episodes, but read the rest. While I enoyed reading the critique, you often pretty much just say your opionion without citing any examples. For example, in Crossroads2, you menion the show containing a lot of "embarassing" moments, but you don't say what a single one of them are. That makes it hard to attach any meaning or have any real discussion. Would be better if you gave examples.
Yeah, it was designed to be a general overview that remained spoiler-free. I can cite a bunch of examples if you want.
- The music stuff I really disliked. It essentially came about because the writers had no way to organically break the Final Five, and it shows. There's just random music drawing them together, and it's never explained or happens again.
- Sharon/Laura dream stuff is poor, although compared to the rest of the storyline it's trapped in it comes out OK.
- The Lampkin twist was unnecessary and kind of lame.
- Yay, more Opera House stuff! Maybe it doesn't seem so bad the first time through, but in retrospect it just comes off as embarrassing filler.
- I'm pissed at the Final Five in general. It first of all doesn't make sense that there's five of them (the writers missed something obvious here). And they ruined some of my favourite characters, as well as two of the best emotional beats of the show.
- Kara's disappearance and return was cheap emotional manipulation that served no purpose and just ended up being silly.
- Fun anecdote: the first time I was watching this with a friend, he commented on the episode's title, and thinking of "Crosstown Traffic," hoped that Jimi Hendrix would be involved somehow. He at least was pleased at the ending (although not in retrospect).
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I never said it referred to her. I said it referred to her husband, which far and away makes much more sense to me than it referring to ANY of the others.
Yes, I remember, I just think it is important to point out those points about Ellen. It does ultimately become her, but in revealing that they pointed out it did not originally mean her. Saul makes no sense to me over Anders. OK, he got tortured by Cavil, did Three even know that? You have Saul and Tigh next to each other, why would she apologize to Saul for his loss of an eye that is not her fault but not to Anders whom she tried to kill while holding prisoner?
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@GP
Cool! I'll comment on just a couple, and then I really have to try to get caught up on some stuff here.
- The music stuff I really disliked. It essentially came about because the writers had no way to organically break the Final Five, and it shows. There's just random music drawing them together, and it's never explained or happens again.
Really? I thought that was one of the best parts of the entire series. But, wait...you're saying they never explain it? Really? That's irritating. I mean, there are some definite hints just in the episode about what's going on and why, but I am expecting it would be fleshed out a bit later. They never explain any more of it? That's lame if it's true.
- Sharon/Laura dream stuff is poor, although compared to the rest of the storyline it's trapped in it comes out OK.
Hmm...I don't know. To me, it's pretty intriguing.
- I'm pissed at the Final Five in general. It first of all doesn't make sense that there's five of them (the writers missed something obvious here). And they ruined some of my favourite characters, as well as two of the best emotional beats of the show.
What do you mean, they missed something obvious? Or that they ruined some of your favorite characters or two of the best emotional beats of the show? I'm not following you.
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I think he means
Saul for one. I originally agreed with him but after seeing where they went with him think it was great for his character and am glad they did it. His reveal really pissed me off, though, I thought they destroyed my favourite character.
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With regards to missing something re: the Final Five, I'm talking about odds. Let's say ~50,000 humans survived the Cylon attack out of a population of 20 billion. That gives you roughly a one in 400,000 chance of surviving the attack. The odds of all five surviving are then a staggering one in 10 billion billion billion.
It would've been damn easy for the writers to not cannibalize the cast and have only one of the Final Five survive.
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I never said it referred to her. I said it referred to her husband, which far and away makes much more sense to me than it referring to ANY of the others.
Yes, I remember, I just think it is important to point out those points about Ellen. It does ultimately become her, but in revealing that they pointed out it did not originally mean her. Saul makes no sense to me over Anders. OK, he got tortured by Cavil, did Three even know that? You have Saul and Tigh next to each other, why would she apologize to Saul for his loss of an eye that is not her fault but not to Anders whom she tried to kill while holding prisoner?
But that was SUCH a minor event. And, ultimately, despite what she WANTED to do, there was precisely zero harm done to him. I mean, putting this in sort of real life terms, it would be like if we were at war with another country, and there was some dude who was actually part of the U.S. military, but I didn't know that because he was a spy and was posing as a member of the other side's military and had been fighting against the U.S. If I had an opportunity to try to kill him while I thought he was an enemy combatant, but was stopped and failed before I could carry it out, and he wasn't harmed at all, I wouldn't feel too bad about it later if I learned that he was really on our side. Yeah, I'd apologize, but the apology would have a huge undertone of, "While I'm very sorry, in all fairness, we were at war, and you were dressed up like the enemy at the time, so...yeah...wanna go have a drink?"
In contrast, Three's reaction was one of terror/horror. That's not a realistic reaction to the situation with Anders. She or those associated with her had to have done something pretty horrible to whoever her apology and reaction were aimed at. From what we've seen, Saul's torture and actually having an eye ripped out is far and away the most likely candidate. Although, actually, now that I think about it, I guess Ellen does also fit. I mean, similar to Saul, Three wasn't directly involved in most of what happened to Ellen. But Ellen was practically forced to sell out the humans repeatedly, including Saul and the resistance, and was forced to literally whore herself out with Cavil. So, yeah, I could see Three reacting to that as well, come to think of it. But Anders? Nah, not really. At least, not based on anything we were shown on screen.
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@GP:
With regards to missing something re: the Final Five, I'm talking about odds. Let's say ~50,000 humans survived the Cylon attack out of a population of 20 billion. That gives you roughly a one in 400,000 chance of surviving the attack. The odds of all five surviving are then a staggering one in 10 billion billion billion.
It would've been damn easy for the writers to not cannibalize the cast and have only one of the Final Five survive.
Oh, I see. Well, I guess my response is this: One of the threads that runs through the show is the concept of fate ensuring that certain outcomes happen. Or divine intervention, if you want to look at it like that. I just ASSUMED as it was unfolding that the five were destined to survive and to arrive in the place they are at now. That to me was just obvious given the parameters of the BSG universe and storyline, so I didn't even bat an eyelash at the odds.
I thought you meant they should have chosen a different number than five that would have had a greater signfiicance. I think it's perfect, in context. There are seven known models with model numbers, and a missing model #7. Plus the five. That makes 13 models, which parallels the number of human colonies, including one lost/missing colony (earth). Nice parallel, if you ask me.
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@bosk1:
Big difference in your story is you're talking same side, not someone she's obsessed with to the point she keeps killing herself. This is also tv, and we only have the evidence shown to us. If she replaced Cavil in the confinement room, I would be more accepting of your side, but we were not shown any reason to assume she had knowledge of that event. We do know for certain her connection to A.
Another possibility is that they didn't know for certain who they were going to make it mean, but that it worked for a few of their choices and they could decide later. The three most popular choices, the three we've been discussing, all ended up cylons.
Baltar was also a popular choice, but given solid proof of not being a Cylon shortly thereafter so fell by the wayside.
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I get you, but I'll just take one final shot at this: The two most relevant factors are (1) the amount of shock/regret she visibly showed; and (2) the severity of the conduct and the impact it would have had on the victim to illicit such a response from her. It wouldn't necessarily matter to her whether she, individually, would have been directly responsible for inflicting whatever the horror was on that individual if the cylons, as a group that she is a part of, did it. So, again, going through those three individuals:
A: Not really very severe. She tried to kill him in pretty much a combat situation where he appeared to be an enemy combatant. And no harm done to him. So while an apology is definitely appropriate, her shock and horror are not.
ST: VERY severe. So even though she wasn't directly involved in the torture and him losing an eye, the severity of what he went through at the hands of the group that she was a part of is enough to have made such a reaction appropriate.
ET: Similar. VERY severe. Again, even though Three didn't directly do anything to ET that we are aware of, it would be appropriate for her to be horrified on behalf of the Cylons as a whole.
I realize that they didn't know who she was apologizing to at the time. But looking back and trying to make it fit, I still can't help but feel ST is the best fit, with ET a close second, and A a very distant third.
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They may have had a specific target, they've never opened up about it as far as I know. The only great evidence we have is they decided it to be ET well after the fact. Once that passed there was no reason for them to indicate what they originally meant, so it could be they left it open or that they meant somebody specific.
If Three knew about ET or ST I get what you're saying. ET I think would be shocking if she knew. ST more likely but still relies on speculation of knowledge.
Also, I'm not sure we're talking about the same event with A or not. I'm talking about what happened on Caprica in Downloaded, that's the same Three model. You? That was nothing like combat, more like execution.
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Yeah, that's the event with A that I was talking about. As far as I know, that's the only direct involvement between the two. But why do you think Three wouldn't have known about ST or ET? She was part of the Cylon leadership and decision making core on New Caprica. I think it's much more likely than not that she knew. In fact, it has never even occurred to me that she wouldn't. Why do you think she didn't?
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BOSK FRIENDLY SPOILERS
Really? I thought that was one of the best parts of the entire series. But, wait...you're saying they never explain it? Really? That's irritating. I mean, there are some definite hints just in the episode about what's going on and why, but I am expecting it would be fleshed out a bit later. They never explain any more of it? That's lame if it's true.
No..... just..... goddamnit... no. GP is not correct here.
There isn't a scene where the BSG God appears and explains why Watchtower in particular is so important or anything like that. But, the meaning of All Along the Watchtower and the Final five melody continues to evolve and weave itself further into the fabric of the show's reality. It ends up paying off in a huge, huge way later.
- Sharon/Laura dream stuff is poor, although compared to the rest of the storyline it's trapped in it comes out OK.
Hmm...I don't know. To me, it's pretty intriguing.
Major pay off later. Stay tuned.
Oh, I see. Well, I guess my response is this: One of the threads that runs through the show is the concept of fate ensuring that certain outcomes happen. Or divine intervention, if you want to look at it like that. I just ASSUMED as it was unfolding that the five were destined to survive and to arrive in the place they are at now. That to me was just obvious given the parameters of the BSG universe and storyline, so I didn't even bat an eyelash at the odds.
Indeed. Like I said earlier, you're skills at watching the show have grown greatly.
I thought you meant they should have chosen a different number than five that would have had a greater signfiicance. I think it's perfect, in context. There are seven known models with model numbers, and a missing model #7. Plus the five. That makes 13 models, which parallels the number of human colonies, including one lost/missing colony (earth). Nice parallel, if you ask me.
Yep.
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Yeah, that's the event with A that I was talking about. As far as I know, that's the only direct involvement between the two. But why do you think Three wouldn't have known about ST or ET? She was part of the Cylon leadership and decision making core on New Caprica. I think it's much more likely than not that she knew. In fact, it has never even occurred to me that she wouldn't. Why do you think she didn't?
With ET, the bedding events weren't exactly something you would expect to be command decisions. What happened afterwards, why would any of the cylons have known about that? I dislike they eventually made it ET, bad hindsight decision.
As I said with ST, more likely, we're just not given evidence of it. This copy of Three is also obsessed with the child, though, that's about all we're shown of her. It doesn't seem like she's too concerned with other events.
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Indeed. Like I said earlier, you're skills at watching the show have grown greatly.
You know, these comments do come off rather badly. I feel awkward reading them.
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Indeed. Like I said earlier, you're skills at watching the show have grown greatly.
You know, these comments do come off rather badly. I feel awkward reading them.
Yep.
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BOSK FRIENDLY SPOILERS
- Sharon/Laura dream stuff is poor, although compared to the rest of the storyline it's trapped in it comes out OK.
Hmm...I don't know. To me, it's pretty intriguing.
Major pay off later. Stay tuned.
You don't have to confirm or deny anything, but just to let you know where I'm coming from on it: I suspect Hera is important to the future of humanity and the Cylons. Well, I mean, I guess that's not very groundbreaking, since Six has been pretty much saying that for a long time. But I'm guessing the story is going to go off in a direction something along the lines of sort of taking the position that humanity, as it exists now, is somewhat obsolete and DOES need to actually be extinct as we know it because of our destructive tendencies. But I think the twist on that idea (which is one that has already been presented) is that, rather than become extinct, humanity needs to evolve into something else. And I think the parallel is that the Cylons face similar judgment. And the offspring of human and Cylon will end up being the new hope for the new race, so to speak. So Hera (and Nicolas) is the obvious cornerstone to all of that. And Roslyn ties into that because she is (1) the prophesied dying leader of humanity (oooh, "dying" and "leader," representing a dying humanity? intriguing...), and (2) she is linked to Hera by having Hera's blood in her. But, being Hera's mom, Boomer also is obviously linked to Hera. So Hera linking humanity and Cylons together is symbolized in at least two ways: (1) Boomer (Cylon) and Helo (human) being her parents, and (2) Boomer (Cylon) and Roslyn (human) both being linked to her, literally, by blood and, from what it appears, possibly sharing some sort of "spiritual" link as well. Anyhow, I'm not COMPLETELY sure where this is ultimately going, but those are kind of my preliminary thoughts, and even if I end up being wrong, it's a pretty interesting theory that is fully supported by what we know up to this point.
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Oh, I see. Well, I guess my response is this: One of the threads that runs through the show is the concept of fate ensuring that certain outcomes happen. Or divine intervention, if you want to look at it like that. I just ASSUMED as it was unfolding that the five were destined to survive and to arrive in the place they are at now. That to me was just obvious given the parameters of the BSG universe and storyline, so I didn't even bat an eyelash at the odds.
Great point, and 100 percent correct. One of GP's biggest problems with the series, I've noticed, is that he tends to take a part of it (particularly, season 2) and overemphasizes how representative it is of the whole show. Yes, most of season 2, and parts of 1 and 3, are pretty "secular" with no mysticism at all, and are basically showing us the Galactica and it's crew bogged down in politics and the war. BUT, if you watch the show from beginning to end, as I've basically started doing again, you'd notice those more mystical and religious elements were always there, even in the pilot. And it's always been clear, from the beginning until the finale of season one, that there is certainly some kind of higher fate/higher power pushing several of the series' main characters onward.
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Indeed. Like I said earlier, you're skills at watching the show have grown greatly.
You know, these comments do come off rather badly. I feel awkward reading them.
Hm.
IMO, the show is kinda sorta meant to be watched a certain way. 99% of the time someone complains about the show, it's because they're watching the show they want to see and not the show the writers intended.
It's fun to read Bosk's comments because it's so obvious that he gets the show.
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Yeah, that's the event with A that I was talking about. As far as I know, that's the only direct involvement between the two. But why do you think Three wouldn't have known about ST or ET? She was part of the Cylon leadership and decision making core on New Caprica. I think it's much more likely than not that she knew. In fact, it has never even occurred to me that she wouldn't. Why do you think she didn't?
With ET, the bedding events weren't exactly something you would expect to be command decisions. What happened afterwards, why would any of the cylons have known about that?
Well, in terms of the details, I agree with you. I'm sure Cavil didn't come back to Cylon Headquarters and say, "Hey, let me tell you something. ET has this move called 'the swirl'...just OUT OF THIS FRAKKIN' WORLD, MAN!" :lol But I absolutely assume the other Cylon leaders on New Caprica (the Three, Five, Six, and Eight) that were shown making the decisions very likely knew he was bedding her to spread misinformation and gather information for the Cylons. I'm convinced they absolutely knew. He even hints at it when he tells her they know ST is the resistance leader and that she needs to give him specific info "or else."
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It's fun to read Bosk's comments because it's so obvious that he gets the show.
Agreed. And, that he's actually taking time to post his comments. When I was watching the show, I just marathon'd it pretty much without leaving much intelligent observation here.
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Typing out my thoughts facilitates more active thought about the show, which actually leads me to come to a lot of the conclusions and discoveries that I wouldn't have made if I didn't type it out. FWIW, I try to approach Bible study and other study the same way. Typing/writing out thoughts, discussing, etc. facilitates cogitation.
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Saying that "the Five were just destined to survive etc." is a really weak cop-out that I don't think even Moore ever tried to advance. It's essentially the same as hand-waving all the plot holes in the Star Wars prequels away by saying "it was the will of the Force," and deserves the same derision.
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It's not a copout when it's one of the primary themes that the show is premised on.
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But it isn't. There's no discussion of "fate" or "destiny" with regards to the Final Five. They just all... randomly survive.
And I've always found it very ironic that the writers played so heavily the theme of "fate" or "destiny" with other characters and concepts when they themselves hadn't planned the arcs out.
Regardless, I think the concept of fate is a silly one to introduce into any narrative, because it essentially robs the character's of any agency and kills all dramatic tension. It's bad as a silly cop-out for things that otherwise can't be explained, but it's worse as a plot mover.
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Okay, well I get that you don't think it's an interesting concept, but as I and several others have pointed out, it is absolutely been made clear all the way through the series that it is a foundational concept in the BSG universe.
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Saying that "the Five were just destined to survive etc." is a really weak cop-out that I don't think even Moore ever tried to advance. It's essentially the same as hand-waving all the plot holes in the Star Wars prequels away by saying "it was the will of the Force," and deserves the same derision.
Because BSG and Star Wars are different universes.
You've seen all of BSG. You know for a fact that certain very specific things happen because they're fated to.
In Star Wars, the "will of the force" isn't really brought up. Destiny exists in Star Wars, but only in a vague sense. For instance, Yoda tells Luke that going to Cloud City will bring inconceivable suffering (which is exactly what happens), but there's no sense of fate in Star Wars that makes these things happen. It's completely Luke's choice and has nothing to do with any broader design. If anything, the will of the force seems to be that he doesn't go.
You could bring up the prophecy about how "The Chosen One" will bring balance to the force. But again, very broad strokes. Individual things don't happen because the force makes them. The prophecy seems to be more saying "This will happen" rather than "The Universe demands this happen."
Regardless, I think the concept of fate is a silly one to introduce into any narrative, because it essentially robs the character's of any agency and kills all dramatic tension. It's bad as a silly cop-out for things that otherwise can't be explained, but it's worse as a plot mover.
I don't think there's any reason to believe though that any of the characters in BSG (with one exception that we absolutely should not spoil) are actually being controlled psychologically by a greater power. People are put in designed circumstances, but their choices are their own.
Also, if I remember correctly, there are little moments here and there throughout the show that seem to indicate that "The Plan" can be changed or altered.
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Bingo. GP, I'm surprised you haven't moved on from the series yet. You seem dead set on insisting that it always was, or came close to being, something that it actually never was from the start.
...Not that there's really a better sci-fi series all-around to get into.
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Name me an instance in the first two and a half seasons of the show that was "destined" to happen. It only started popping up in the mythology-heavy third and fourth seasons, once reality had left the building along with coherent plotting and characterization.
In the first three seasons, characters often believed in the notion of fate, and often behaved accordingly, but things were always presented as acts of choice. There's a very big difference between, say, Lara believing herself to have a specific destiny and attempting to fulfill it, and what the show did with certain characters in season 4, for example.
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Name me an instance in the first two and a half seasons of the show that was "destined" to happen. It only started popping up in the mythology-heavy third and fourth seasons, once reality had left the building along with coherent plotting and characterization.
I highly recommend you watch the pilot again, and then the finale of season 1.
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Name me an instance in the first two and a half seasons of the show that was "destined" to happen. It only started popping up in the mythology-heavy third and fourth seasons, once reality had left the building along with coherent plotting and characterization.
I highly recommend you watch the pilot again, and then the finale of season 1.
Watched 'em both recently. What did I miss?
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Apparently, everything.
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I think what GP is trying to say is that even though characters early on in the show always believed in destiny, the show didn't make it explicit that this was going on until later.
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Which is one natural progression for the theme. I think GP wishes the characters had been wrong (or to never answer), but the writers made them right. Roslin always seemed to have a destiny. Starbuck was given some funny undertones early on, too, wasn't she? Just imagine where Baltar would be without Imaginary Six. Certainly some pretty odd things were going on early in the series.
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Which is one natural progression for the theme. I think GP wishes the characters had been wrong (or to never answer), but the writers made them right. Roslin always seemed to have a destiny. Starbuck was given some funny undertones early on, too, wasn't she? Just imagine where Baltar would be without Imaginary Six. Certainly some pretty odd things were going on early in the series.
Yeah. I don't know how you can watch Baltar through the series and not realize early on that he's being moved by a destiny, especially after the season one finale, when it becomes really clear that he's not just falling victim to some mental problem or Cylon plot.
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Which is one natural progression for the theme. I think GP wishes the characters had been wrong (or to never answer), but the writers made them right. Roslin always seemed to have a destiny. Starbuck was given some funny undertones early on, too, wasn't she? Just imagine where Baltar would be without Imaginary Six. Certainly some pretty odd things were going on early in the series.
Yeah. I don't know how you can watch Baltar through the series and not realize early on that he's being moved by a destiny, especially after the season one finale, when it becomes really clear that he's not just falling victim to some mental problem or Cylon plot.
You're letting hindsight affect things. At the time of the writing and airing of those episodes, the writers were not sure of Baltar's condition, and really had not developed many ideas about what the Opera House would represent. Hell, it doesn't get picked up again until past the midway point of season three.
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You're letting hindsight affect things. At the time of the writing and airing of those episodes, the writers were not sure of Baltar's condition, and really had not developed many ideas about what the Opera House would represent. Hell, it doesn't get picked up again until past the midway point of season three.
No, I'm not. I felt that all along. In fact, after season one, I had a feeling that the show was going to be way more mystical than it wound up being. You get your wishes for what the show was supposed to be confused with reality.
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Hey, guys. I don't follow this show at ALL, but I ran across this and thought it might be of some interest to those of you who do.
Executive Producer David Eick and star Luke Pasqualino Share How BATTLESTAR GALACTICA: BLOOD & CHROME Was Brought to Life (https://www.thetvaddict.com/2012/11/16/ep-david-eick-and-luke-pasqualino-share-how-battlestar-galactica-blood-chrome-was-brought-to-life/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+thetvaddict%2FAXob+%28the+TV+addict%29)
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You're letting hindsight affect things. At the time of the writing and airing of those episodes, the writers were not sure of Baltar's condition, and really had not developed many ideas about what the Opera House would represent. Hell, it doesn't get picked up again until past the midway point of season three.
No, I'm not. I felt that all along. In fact, after season one, I had a feeling that the show was going to be way more mystical than it wound up being. You get your wishes for what the show was supposed to be confused with reality.
I think it's important to distinguish between the development of the story and the story itself. To use a non-spoilery example (well, at least not for BSG) an analysis of say, Darth Vader, has to take into account the creative process behind the character (like how when Star Wars was written, he was not yet Anakin Skywalker).
It really helps, with respect to BSG, that Moore was so open about the creative process (which, to be honest, is pretty great), because one can pretty easily trace the way the big themes and ideas were developed. So when it comes to someone like Roslin having a "destiny" or whatever, one can separate the story's presentation of that idea from the creative process. So, here's a series of quotes from Mr. Moore from the transcript of the podcast for "Epiphanies," which shows a snapshot of some of the creative decisions behind Roslin's arc re: the cancer and fate and what have you up 'til then:
"It seemed right at this point in the life of the series to finally do the episode that really dealt with her illness, that really dealt with the fact that Laura had been diagnosed with terminal breast cancer and that the President was slipping away from us. It had been alluded to all throughout the first season, this season we have been very direct about it, we had said that she wasn't gonna make it, the doctor had given her a very short term- a very short time in which to live and then indeed in the last weeks episode- at the end of the episode you saw her having trouble just getting up and physically walking out of Colonial One after her meeting with Adama. And it just felt like this had been simmering along for a long time and that we had to deal with it at some point, we had to really face the fact, as do all the characters, that Laura had what was a terminal illness and that it had to come to some kind of a head...
And now we get into the final sequence we should talk a little bit about why we decided to "cure" Laura's cancer at all. It was something I initially thought I was going to run as long as humanly possible, possibly to the end of the series and that her condition would never get better and that she would just eventually deteriorate. That became less and less satisfying as time went on, she was an important figure in the show and the truth of playing her illness meant that she had to get physically worse and worse and worse and be on her back and taking whatever their equivalent of chemotherapy is and surgeries and it just meant we were inevitably going to sideline the character to the point where she became a hospital figure and I just didn't wanna do that to the show. And yet I didn't wanna just wave a wand and have it go away so we came up with this route which seemed to- which came out of the writer's room I didn't come up with this- I believe it was Anne Cofell our staff writer who came up with this, I wouldn't swear to that but I think so- and this notion that something from the Cylon child can cure Laura and that the discovery is made by Baltar who is about to become President and Baltar sabotages his own Presidency by figuring out the key to Laura's survival...
It is worth noting that it's certainly possible that Laura's cancer can come back, it's certainly possible that like so many cancer patients she could be clear one day and then a few weeks or months down the line she could find that the disease is back. I think that taking the cancer away from Laura also provides us with an ability to question her role as the prophet, because if the prophecies are correct a dying leader will lead them to the promised land and if Laura's no longer dying maybe she's not the leader anymore and that was an intriguing possibility as well that only came about much later in the show because at the beginning of the show we didn't have any of this prophet stuff...
Cancer's gone. For now. [evil laugh] Because why would I wanna give up a perfectly good way of torturing a character?
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Or, here's another example about the Final Five. You know how you've been claiming there's all sorts of foreshadowing/thought put into the identities of the last Cylons before they show up?
"So, for instance, when you decided who four of the Final Five would be, how much thought did you have to put into it before revealing it in "Crossroads," and how much was, "Oh, we'll say this and figure it out over the hiatus"?
RDM: The impulse to do it was literally an impulse. We were in the writers room on the finale of that season, always knew we would end season 3 on trial of Baltar and his acquittal, the writers had worked out a story and a plot, they were pitching it to me in the room. And I had a nagging sense that it wasn't big enough, on the level of jumping ahead a year or shooting Adama. And I literally made it up in the room, I said, "What if four of our characters walk from different parts of the ship, end up in a room and say, 'Oh my God, we're Cylons'? And we leave one for next season." And everyone said "Oh my God," and they were scared, and because they were scared, I knew I was right. And then we sat and spent a couple of hours talking about who those four would be. Surprisingly, it wasn't that hard to lock in who made the most sense and who would make the most story going forward."
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As I said many times, the hints were not necessarily placed on purpose, but also possibly elements that helped lead to the decisions or teases/red herrings. Nothing there contradicts that. Get over over our discussion already, that didn't add anything we don't know.
We know they made the set in stone decisions on the characters at the very last moments. They have not been forthcoming on when anyone first started leaning towards any of those examples. Ellen is the perfect example, straight from a writers mouth they were thinking about making her a cylon from her very beginning. They dropped hints on her right there, but never forced themselves to go that way until near her reveal. Deciding at time X does not mean it was out of the blue and didn't consider any prior happenings on the show..
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GP, that's all nice, but I don't see how it's particularly relevant.
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Analysis of art, especially something that was extended in length (and involved audience feedback), should take into account the creative process behind it. Just for a random example, an analysis of Three saying "sorry" to one of the Final Five in "Rapture" would have to take into account that the mind of the writers at that point (which means, for example, it was almost certainly Ellen she was apologizing to).
So (and Bosk, this might constitute a SPOILER for you, so you should best look away) if the finale, for example, asserts that all of a certain character's plotline was guided by fate, any analysis has to take into account whether that was something deliberately designed from the start on the part of the creative staff or a conclusion arrived at later.
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I dunno. It seemed to work fine for me. And, watching with the finale in mind, it all works pretty well.
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GP, seriously, your arguments make zero sense.
Anyway, back to the good stuff. Following the cliffhanger with the revelation of 4, Starbuck's return, and the imminent showdown with a big Cylon fleet, the wife chose to skip Razor and jump right into season 4 proper. I couldn't disagree.
Watched the first four episodes through Escape Velocity. Wow. A lot has happened. The Cylon "rebellion" was incredibly interesting, and I'm bummed that it ended so quickly. And back in the human fleet, things are really beginning to deteriorate. The earlier statement about the Cylons not having to destroy the humans because the humans will destroy themselves is really starting to play itself out. The gradual unraveling of individual characters really symbolizes the unraveling of humanity as a whole. Although it should have been obvious from the getgo, I'm becoming increasingly aware that the proper genre of the series really is more along the lines of being a tragedy than an adventure. Anyhow, after Escape Velocity, we may now go back and watch Razor.
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GP, seriously, your arguments make zero sense.
What's so confusing about taking into account the creative process when analyzing art? Especially when it has major ramifications about interpretation?
And Razor's an interesting beast. There's quite a bit of good, a spoonful of bad, and one particularly baffling creative decision.
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Just for a random example, an analysis of Three saying "sorry" to one of the Final Five in "Rapture" would have to take into account that the mind of the writers at that point (which means, for example, it was almost certainly Ellen she was apologizing to).
You don't even read what we're writing. We had went into this in detail. Ellen is who it ultimately meant in the writer's minds, but when they revealed that they straight out said that they only decided it meant her after they finally decided she would certainly be a cylon (post season 3). It was not meant to be her when they wrote it. Maybe they had not settled on who it meant when they wrote it, they do suggest that, but since they only ever discussed it after Ellen was revealed, and they had basically retconed any meaning, we really don't know. Maybe they were playing it at 2 or 3 possibilities they could go with. Maybe they targeted someone specific and it just didn't matter to them any more. The apology was too strong to not have some meaning in their minds. So there's still discussion to be had on the original intent.
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Anyway, back to the good stuff. Following the cliffhanger with the revelation of 4, Starbuck's return, and the imminent showdown with a big Cylon fleet, the wife chose to skip Razor and jump right into season 4 proper. I couldn't disagree.
Watched the first four episodes through Escape Velocity. Wow. A lot has happened. The Cylon "rebellion" was incredibly interesting, and I'm bummed that it ended so quickly. And back in the human fleet, things are really beginning to deteriorate. The earlier statement about the Cylons not having to destroy the humans because the humans will destroy themselves is really starting to play itself out. The gradual unraveling of individual characters really symbolizes the unraveling of humanity as a whole. Although it should have been obvious from the getgo, I'm becoming increasingly aware that the proper genre of the series really is more along the lines of being a tragedy than an adventure. Anyhow, after Escape Velocity, we may now go back and watch Razor.
Bad call. :p Something important happens in Razor that affects watching season 4, especially early on. It wasn't just a nice thing to make, it did serve as a bridge from season 3 to season 4.
edit: Do not put off Razor any longer, you're going to cheat yourself of a great facet of season 4 if you keep putting it off.
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GP, seriously, your arguments make zero sense.
What's so confusing about taking into account the creative process when analyzing art? Especially when it has major ramifications about interpretation?
There's nothing "confusing" about it at all. It's just that your argument is nonsense.
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Indeed. Like I said earlier, you're skills at watching the show have grown greatly.
You know, these comments do come off rather badly. I feel awkward reading them.
Hm.
IMO, the show is kinda sorta meant to be watched a certain way. 99% of the time someone complains about the show, it's because they're watching the show they want to see and not the show the writers intended.
It's fun to read Bosk's comments because it's so obvious that he gets the show.
I absolutely agree with this, and it's always been my main problem with GP's complaints about the show.
If you don't like it, that's cool. But it's nonsensical to slag it off in such objective terms when comparing it to something that it's not trying to be.
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Watched Faith last night. It was so good that, despite having to get up at 5:00 to go to work, we had to watch the next episode (Guess What's Coming to Dinner?) as well. I can't remember so many :omg: moments in such a short span of time. When the plugged the hybrid back in at the end, and the first thing she says is "Jump!" I was like: :omg: "Wait! NO!"
:lol
Can't wait to see what's next.
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"Guess What's Coming To Dinner" is a pretty good episode. Gaeta's arc is the major redeeming feature of season 4, in my opinion.
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Did you watch Razor?
You're cheating yourself of a cool facet of season 4 if not.
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No, I didn't. Sometime in the next few days, though. I'm guessing that whatever you are talking about has to do with Natalie, since she was the Six that the Pegasus captured.
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Just watch it before you go any further.
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Razor and five more episodes. Ended up getting in a lot of watching while wrapping presents Friday and Saturday night. Watched through A Disquiet Follows My Soul. Lots of questions, but two of the biggest right now are:
-Where's Ellen?
-What exactly is Starbuck?
And I have to say, making Nicholas not be Tyrol's son seems like such an unnecessary gut punch.
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Soon she will appear.
Yeah, I disliked very much what they did with Tyrol's Hot Dog's kid
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Razor and five more episodes. Ended up getting in a lot of watching while wrapping presents Friday and Saturday night. Watched through A Disquiet Follows My Soul. Lots of questions, but two of the biggest right now are:
-Where's Ellen?
-What exactly is Starbuck?
And I have to say, making Nicholas not be Tyrol's son seems like such an unnecessary gut punch.
Dude, how can you see Sometimes a Great Notion and not post about it?
BOSK FRIENDLY SPOILERS:
- A Disquiet Follows My Soul was directed by creator Ronald D Moore. I actually think that he did a very good job with this show. A few very creative visual moments and good acting.
- How about the big celebration when they get to Earth, then finding out it's a nuclear wasteland, then finding out all the humanoids on Earth were Cylons?
- Roslin gives up. Heartbreaking.
- Dualla commits suicide. Probably the biggest wham moment in the show.
- The whole confrontation between Adama and Tigh is intense, no?
- Re: Where's Ellen - What happens to humanoid Cylons when they die?
- Nicholas being part Cylon would have stepped on Hera. Gotta get that out of the way.
- Major piece of exposition RDM dropped in the Sometimes a Great Notion podcast that didn't find its way into the show: Humans first lived on Kobol and created humanoid Cylons. Due to some unknown catastrophe, the humans went one way (the twelve colonies) and the humanoid Cylons went another way (Earth). From there, you can fill in based on the show.
- How did you like Razor?
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Yeah, I disliked very much what they did with Tyrol's Hot Dog's kid
Yup, completely unnecessary, especially with how interesting things had been going.
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SPOILERS & STUFF...
Dude, how can you see Sometimes a Great Notion and not post about it?
I probably will. Tired and behind at work, and with 5 episodes plus Razor, there's a LOT to post about.
- How about the big celebration when they get to Earth, then finding out it's a nuclear wasteland, then finding out all the humanoids on Earth were Cylons?
I knew earth had been nuked, so it wasn't a big shock. I read a bit of the thread pretty early on, long before deciding to watch the show. There was a post of yours reveailing that earth had been nuked, and even though I read it a LONG time ago, I remembered that. But don't feel bad for spoiling it. That post lingering in my mind was one of the things that eventually prompted me to start watching the show in the first place. Still very cool. They did it well.
As far as the humans on earth being Cylons, it had already been revealed that the Five had been on earth, so I knew that some Cylons were there. So while earth being a completely Cylon colony was a cool twist, my reaction overall was along the lines of, "WAIT, WHA--oh, yeah, okay, that actually makes a lot of sense. :lol
- Roslin gives up. Heartbreaking.
Totally. Really interested in seeing what happens with her and seeing whether she will rise above it all yet again, or just fade away in despair.
- Dualla commits suicide. Probably the biggest wham moment in the show.
But did she? That moment in the show was actually very unclear, I thought. It looked to me like someone else put the gun to her head and pulled the trigger, and just made it look like a suicide.
- The whole confrontation between Adama and Tigh is intense, no?
Totally. VERY well done. And as much as I hate to admit it, Tigh is actually becoming a likeable character despite how much I despise some of his character flaws.
- Nicholas being part Cylon would have stepped on Hera. Gotta get that out of the way.
Eh, I guess. I was initially thinking that the series was going to conclude with basically most of the human and Cylons destroying themselves before finding earth, and then Nicolas and Hera being the prototypical "Adam and Eve" that would start humanity anew on Earth and begin a new civilization. That's the general direction I thought the show might likely be heading. Seemed logical from the way things were unfolding.
- Major piece of exposition RDM dropped in the Sometimes a Great Notion podcast that didn't find its way into the show: Humans first lived on Kobol and created humanoid Cylons. Due to some unknown catastrophe, the humans went one way (the twelve colonies) and the humanoid Cylons went another way (Earth). From there, you can fill in based on the show.
It wasn't explicitly stated all in one place, but that was actually mostly spelled out in the series. At least, I was able to pretty much put that together.
- How did you like Razor?
It was pretty good. It's interesting to see something like that sort of "after the fact" in terms of it being well after the time the events actually occurred. But it was great backstory that not only added a lot of depth to the Pegasus arc, but also provided a lot of cool backstory for where I am currently in the series. So pretty neat in terms of being somewhat unnecessary, but still bringing a lot to the table.
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It also provided the lead in to season 4, telling us that Starbuck would lead humanity to its ruin. It was a pretty striking line coming from the way season 3 ended. All of a sudden Starbuck was something very dangerous, not just the bringer of good news.
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Oh yeah, good point. As crazy as it may sound, I forgot that that was part of Razor. Watching so much in such a short period of time does have a tendency to make things blur just a bit. :lol
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- How about the big celebration when they get to Earth, then finding out it's a nuclear wasteland, then finding out all the humanoids on Earth were Cylons?
I knew earth had been nuked, so it wasn't a big shock. I read a bit of the thread pretty early on, long before deciding to watch the show. There was a post of yours reveailing that earth had been nuked, and even though I read it a LONG time ago, I remembered that. But don't feel bad for spoiling it. That post lingering in my mind was one of the things that eventually prompted me to start watching the show in the first place. Still very cool. They did it well.
As far as the humans on earth being Cylons, it had already been revealed that the Five had been on earth, so I knew that some Cylons were there. So while earth being a completely Cylon colony was a cool twist, my reaction overall was along the lines of, "WAIT, WHA--oh, yeah, okay, that actually makes a lot of sense. :lol
Whoopsies!
Glad you liked the twist though. From a plot/mythology standpoint, it was one of my favorite parts of the show.
- Roslin gives up. Heartbreaking.
Totally. Really interested in seeing what happens with her and seeing whether she will rise above it all yet again, or just fade away in despair.
Stay tuned.
- Dualla commits suicide. Probably the biggest wham moment in the show.
But did she? That moment in the show was actually very unclear, I thought. It looked to me like someone else put the gun to her head and pulled the trigger, and just made it look like a suicide.
She did.
- The whole confrontation between Adama and Tigh is intense, no?
Totally. VERY well done. And as much as I hate to admit it, Tigh is actually becoming a likeable character despite how much I despise some of his character flaws.
Hahahahahahahahahaha.
- Nicholas being part Cylon would have stepped on Hera. Gotta get that out of the way.
Eh, I guess. I was initially thinking that the series was going to conclude with basically most of the human and Cylons destroying themselves before finding earth, and then Nicolas and Hera being the prototypical "Adam and Eve" that would start humanity anew on Earth and begin a new civilization. That's the general direction I thought the show might likely be heading. Seemed logical from the way things were unfolding.
Interesting thought. I think the thing is that Hera's singular importance in the mythology would have been undermined. A lot of the show's plot is clearly improved, but that would have been too big a diversion from what was established.
- Major piece of exposition RDM dropped in the Sometimes a Great Notion podcast that didn't find its way into the show: Humans first lived on Kobol and created humanoid Cylons. Due to some unknown catastrophe, the humans went one way (the twelve colonies) and the humanoid Cylons went another way (Earth). From there, you can fill in based on the show.
It wasn't explicitly stated all in one place, but that was actually mostly spelled out in the series. At least, I was able to pretty much put that together.
Interesting.
- How did you like Razor?
It was pretty good. It's interesting to see something like that sort of "after the fact" in terms of it being well after the time the events actually occurred. But it was great backstory that not only added a lot of depth to the Pegasus arc, but also provided a lot of cool backstory for where I am currently in the series. So pretty neat in terms of being somewhat unnecessary, but still bringing a lot to the table.
How about Cain and Gina? If you watch Pegasus with that knowledge, suddenly everything in that episode feels more personally relevant.
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They could have killed Tyrol's kid to keep Hera's prominence. With the struggles over the kid they decided to put in, anyways, they could have used that as a springboard to the kid being offed. The Hot Dog twist was unnecessary and lame.
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I should also add that this short series of dialog was one of the best in the entire series:
Helo: "Athena tells me the upgrades should...triple the Fleet's jump capacity."
Tyrol: "Absolutely. And that's conservative. Their technology-our technology, is way ahead of ours. Yours."
Tigh: "Maybe you'd like a chart to keep it all straight?"
:lol
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WOW....
https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B0027UY8B8/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?t=sdfp-21&tag=sdfp-21&ie=UTF8&smid=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE
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I watched Crossroads out of curiosity from the discussion. Yeah, the trial stuff is frequently awkward, you kind of need to take it as a means for the story to posture a variety of viewpoints instead of as a trial. There aer a few things to note, though. The episode makes it clear there was no real legal system in place. The prosecutor makes a snide comment to Tory along the lines of "good luck finding another lawyer" if they want to replace her. Tony Romo also makes a comment about the fleet looking to reestablish a legal system following the trial. The writers at least tried to explain away any need they had to make a realistic trial. I think you can interpret it as a farce meant to execute Baltar, not an attempt to be faithful to their legal system. I think Lee's whole stance kind of back's that up. Everyone just wants to airlock Baltar, so he latches onto serving law to spit in their faces.
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Tony Romo
Uh... :lol
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Wow, so...No Exit was just crammed FULL of stuff. REALLY cool episode. But Cavill leaving Boomer alone with Ellen and then Boomer helping Ellen escape when Cavill was allegedly preparing to kill Ellen by "surgery"... Pretty obvious ploy to get Boomer to be able to find and lead Cavill back to the fleet, I'm thinking. Eh, but whatchagonna do? He had to find them eventually. Not sure *I* could have come up with a more creative way for it to happen.
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So how about The Oath and Blood on the Scales? Especially as an ex-military person.
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Make my blood boil. :lol I thought they were pretty well done.
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Make my blood boil.
In what way?
:lol I thought they were pretty well done.
Definitely. Especially the first one. Just as a piece of drama, the whole thing works beautifully. I'm not as big a fan of the second part, but it has some great moments. The final Gaeta/Baltar scene is masterful. And then the very last scene is brutal.
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Make my blood boil.
In what way?
Seeing innocent people being killed to advance a political agenda. Unjustified mutiny. etc.
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Gaeta/Baltar at the end really might have brought them up to one of the great relationships on the show, I thought. It was more occasional, but post New Caprica the interactions involving these two were pretty intense. Gaeta's sense of betrayal took him to be even more despicable than Baltar. They were like an odd couple with a slow role reversal.
Did you watch the webisodes prior to Sometimes a Great Nation? It reveals what Baltar whispered to Gaete prior to being butterfingered.
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No. Where do I find them?
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You'll have to do some searching, they aren't on the boxsets. It's called "The Face of the Enemy." I think this is where the studio got upset regarding the webisodes because they felt it was an episode and not promotional material. They thought they should have the rights to it, or something, and prevented it from getting a wide release. I think it even got taken down pretty shortly after being originally put up. Shame it wasn't on any boxsets.
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No. Where do I find them?
Sorry for not mentioning these to you. They provide crucial explanation for why Gaeta did what he did. It doesn't really make him more sympathetic (it might actually be less sympathetic), but it makes a lot more sense. When Baltar says "our little secret," you know what he means.
Seeing innocent people being killed to advance a political agenda. Unjustified mutiny. etc.
I do wonder if these episodes would have played better if they were played more morally ambiguously. I think Gaeta comes off as morally debatable in the end. He thought he was doing the right thing. He at least tried. Zarek ended up being a bad guy, but really we always knew this was true.
Really though, Gaeta was kind of an idiot. Zarek was right in that Mutinies mean business. Gaeta was more interested in his idealism than realistically considering the consequences of his actions, which is why he didn't fire at the Basestar (other than the fact that the Basestar would have ripped Galactica apart). Relative to their agenda, Laird (the Pegasus deck chief) couldn't be allowed to live. Killing the Quorum was a bad PR move, but having a unified voice advocating against you would have been even worse.
In a sense, the story was about this. But it's not interesting relative to the fact that the good guys are the good guys. It would have been more interesting if Gaeta's revolution was something that needed to happen, but his own naivete ruined it. But really, the fleet needed the Cylon jump drives. Adama was still the best guy to command Galactica. Gaeta was just wrong.
I'd rather it play out the way it did than have the good guys not be the good guys. But I wish there was more complexity somehow.
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It would've been very easy to write a second side to the story.
For example: what do you think of the American government offering Nazi scientists and doctors, many of whom were either complicit or directly involved in crimes against humanity, safe haven and employment after World War II?
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It would've been very easy to write a second side to the story.
For example: what do you think of the American government offering Nazi scientists and doctors, many of whom were either complicit or directly involved in crimes against humanity, safe haven and employment after World War II?
No comment because I don't know about it in any meaningful detail.
What's the relation between that and BSG?
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It would've been very easy to write a second side to the story.
For example: what do you think of the American government offering Nazi scientists and doctors, many of whom were either complicit or directly involved in crimes against humanity, safe haven and employment after World War II?
This is true, but I think it would have really lost focus in the grand scheme of things. I mean, I know you hated the direction they went in, but unless they just went 100% into the political/social aspects of life and nothing else, then stuff like that just kind of had to be put aside.
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It would've been very easy to write a second side to the story.
For example: what do you think of the American government offering Nazi scientists and doctors, many of whom were either complicit or directly involved in crimes against humanity, safe haven and employment after World War II?
This is true, but I think it would have really lost focus in the grand scheme of things. I mean, I know you hated the direction they went in, but unless they just went 100% into the political/social aspects of life and nothing else, then stuff like that just kind of had to be put aside.
You could keep it fairly simple. Crewmembers, who've fought long and hard and lost many friends and family to the Cylons, all of a sudden feel betrayed when the fleet decides to team up with a bunch. They resent Adama and Roslin for keeping things secret from them. They hear that Adama's being all buddy-buddy with people who they thought they could trust, but are actually Cylons. With Adama and Roslin acting unilaterally to ally themselves with the toasters that murdered all of humanity, dissent leads to a mutiny.
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Well didn't they do that? Just not at the forefront or in a super crazy dramatic way?
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??? Uh...yeah, that's exactly how they did it. :lol
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Not really. In fact, prior to the mutiny, it's only Gaeta and Zarek who show any dissent.
Besides, both are given pretty unsympathetic treatment by the show. Zarek especially (who sadly turns back into a 2-dimensional cartoon for these episodes), whereas Gaeta is more treated as a naïve fool.
The end of the mutiny is especially galling, because it ends up abandoning any pretext to there being two sides to the issue. Adama's cause is so righteous that all he has to do to end the mutiny is literally walk down a hallway.
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Honestly, I don't think you've really even seen a single episode of BSG.
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Not really. In fact, prior to the mutiny, it's only Gaeta and Zarek who show any dissent.
Wait, what? In the episode before the Mutiny, we're shown/told that at least a third of the fleet is refusing to have the Cylon jump drives installed. The last third of the episode is about the Tyllium ship jumping away to force Adama's hand.
Besides, both are given pretty unsympathetic treatment by the show. Zarek especially (who sadly turns back into a 2-dimensional cartoon for these episodes), whereas Gaeta is more treated as a naïve fool.
Zarek wasn't a two-dimensional cartoon. He was a bad person. In fairness, the show wasn't sure what they wanted him to be, but he definitely wasn't unrealistic.
The end of the mutiny is especially galling, because it ends up abandoning any pretext to there being two sides to the issue. Adama's cause is so righteous that all he has to do to end the mutiny is literally walk down a hallway.
It's not just Adama walking down a hallway.
A major theme of the mutiny episodes is that while Zarek understands the practicalities of what they're doing better than Gaeta, he also goes too far. You have to remember too that the Mutineers were in the minority and that Adama generally speaking was very well liked. Within the context of the show, it made sense. He didn't just walk down the hallway. A whole anti-mutiny movement was happening around the CIC, and it came a-knocking.
I agree that it could have been better. It was probably for the worse that Gaeta didn't know what he was doing, because it made him so much less credible. It also would have been good if Adama had gone too far in some way. Everyone needed to have the jump drives. Period. It was more unreasonable to refuse the drives than it was reasonable to fight against them. You didn't need to think the mutiny was right, but you needed to think they had more a point than it did.
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Honestly, I don't think you've really even seen a single episode of BSG.
:lol
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Honestly, I don't think you've really even seen a single episode of BSG.
:lol
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The Face of the Enemy
Oh! Just...WOW! :omg:
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Honestly, I don't think you've really even seen a single episode of BSG.
While I do disagree completely with everything GP says about the series, what he's voicing is pretty much consensus for the dissatisfied end of the fan spectrum.
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Honestly, I don't think you've really even seen a single episode of BSG.
I could say the same, but I realize that art is subjective and my critical opinion isn't fact.
Not really. In fact, prior to the mutiny, it's only Gaeta and Zarek who show any dissent.
Wait, what? In the episode before the Mutiny, we're shown/told that at least a third of the fleet is refusing to have the Cylon jump drives installed. The last third of the episode is about the Tyllium ship jumping away to force Adama's hand.
I'm not sure if refusing the Cylon technology is the exact same. Certainly amongst the crew you don't see any hostility, even when you have outed Cylons reassuming their rank and position. And the Tylium ship was manipulated by Zarek, wasn't it?
Besides, both are given pretty unsympathetic treatment by the show. Zarek especially (who sadly turns back into a 2-dimensional cartoon for these episodes), whereas Gaeta is more treated as a naïve fool.
Zarek wasn't a two-dimensional cartoon. He was a bad person. In fairness, the show wasn't sure what they wanted him to be, but he definitely wasn't unrealistic.
Bah, Zarek's turn in the fourth season really annoyed me. He started out being a transparent villain, albeit an entertaining one, but the shading he got in the third season made him a really interesting character. Having him turn back into a scenery-chewing villain with no redeeming qualities, looking out for only himself was disappointing. It illustrates the show's bad habit of manipulating characters for the purpose of plot that happened a lot in the fourth season.
[quote[
The end of the mutiny is especially galling, because it ends up abandoning any pretext to there being two sides to the issue. Adama's cause is so righteous that all he has to do to end the mutiny is literally walk down a hallway.
It's not just Adama walking down a hallway.
A major theme of the mutiny episodes is that while Zarek understands the practicalities of what they're doing better than Gaeta, he also goes too far. You have to remember too that the Mutineers were in the minority and that Adama generally speaking was very well liked. Within the context of the show, it made sense. He didn't just walk down the hallway. A whole anti-mutiny movement was happening around the CIC, and it came a-knocking.
[/quote]
While the mutineers may have been a minority, they also had widespread support, both explicit and tacit. There's simply too many people involved.
I agree that it could have been better. It was probably for the worse that Gaeta didn't know what he was doing, because it made him so much less credible. It also would have been good if Adama had gone too far in some way. Everyone needed to have the jump drives. Period. It was more unreasonable to refuse the drives than it was reasonable to fight against them. You didn't need to think the mutiny was right, but you needed to think they had more a point than it did.
One could very reasonably argue (as Gaeta did) that Adama had gone too far previously. Remember when everyone was obsessed the concept of democracy and having a civil society? At this point in BSG, things are very much an autocracy, and Adama ordering civilian ships to accept tech they didn't want, without giving explanation or choice, represents this.
What I mean is that previously, BSG had gone through some lengths to represent both sides of an issue (hell, they even humanized the fucking Nazi-collaborators in the Vichy that was New Caprica). With the mutiny, the show was very much on Adama's side, portraying the mutiny as both completely unjustified, and its leaders as a bloodthirsty madman and fool respectively. It felt like a cop-out.
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Honestly, I don't think you've really even seen a single episode of BSG.
I could say the same, but I realize that art is subjective and my critical opinion isn't fact.
You sure do act like it is.
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Watched Deadlock last night. Wow. This has to be one of my favorite episodes if for no other reason than for the subtle drama. There was a lot of hugely emotional stuff going on that was handled so delicately. 5/5 stars.
Only four episodes to go, and so much ground to cover. I suspect that some of the issues that seem "important" will remain unresolved at the end, but here are some thoughts I am grappling with:
An integrated socieity: This is a very interesting concept. The writers have done a pretty good job of building up to a point where I think we as the audience, and many of the characters in the series, realize that integration is the only hope of either race surviving, but at the same time, there are seemingly almost insurmountable obstacles. For instance, the Cylons tried to completely exterminate humanity. Completely. They actively tried, and mostly succeeded. And in doing so, they completely altered just about everything about how human society functions. This creates some obvious problems on both sides. For instance, how do humans forgive that? How do the Cylons who still think humanity's extinction is the way to go find a place alongside humans in a new society?
Caprica Six: Along with the above, there are so many complicated issues surrounder her. She is basically directly responsible for the destruction of Caprica and for the deaths of many. How do humans reconcile keeping her alive and free? How does she deal with it? I know the latter was somewhat dealt with a few episodes back, but this is a much bigger issue than a few lines of dialog should be able to dispose of.
The reckoning: The rest of the Cylon fleet is out there somewhere. The Ones are going to have to be dealt with. But I wonder how? And even if they are, what about the Fours and Fives?
Ellen and Boomer: Yeah, so...how exactly did they find the fleet? Again, was it all a plot between Bommer and the Ones? Will that be used to find the fleet and force a final confrontation? If so, how can the fleet possibly survive when they are so hopelessly outmatched and outgunned?
The Centurions: Because of what they represent, I see no way the presence of Centurions could be accepted by humans in any sort of integrated society. This makes for some complicated issues. And to further complicate things, somewhere along the way, the issue of whether to remove their inhibitors is surely likely to come up again. Hmm...
Three: Oh yeah, what about her? It seemed like she just remained behind on Earth. Is her character just going to be abandoned? That would be hard to believe.
Starbuck? What of Starbuck? Yeah, we still haven't forgotten.
Lots and lots of issues. Can't wait to see how this all wraps up.
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Don't you just love Baltar? I love the scene where Adama arms Baltar's crazies. :lol Season 4 was such a great treatment for his character.
The Centurions: Because of what they represent, I see no way the presence of Centurions could be accepted by humans in any sort of integrated society. This makes for some complicated issues. And to further complicate things, somewhere along the way, the issue of whether to remove their inhibitors is surely likely to come up again. Hmm...
They settle this issue very well, in my opinion.
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Watched Deadlock last night. Wow. This has to be one of my favorite episodes if for no other reason than for the subtle drama. There was a lot of hugely emotional stuff going on that was handled so delicately. 5/5 stars.
Interesting. This is the only episode of the second half of season four I don't like. You probably saw it a lot differently than I did. Please elaborate.
I suspect that some of the issues that seem "important" will remain unresolved at the end, but here are some thoughts I am grappling with:
Don't worry about that.
Not every issue is dealt with directly. Not every issue is fully explained. But nothing is just conveniently ignored during the final episode.
An integrated socieity: This is a very interesting concept. The writers have done a pretty good job of building up to a point where I think we as the audience, and many of the characters in the series, realize that integration is the only hope of either race surviving, but at the same time, there are seemingly almost insurmountable obstacles. For instance, the Cylons tried to completely exterminate humanity. Completely. They actively tried, and mostly succeeded. And in doing so, they completely altered just about everything about how human society functions. This creates some obvious problems on both sides. For instance, how do humans forgive that? How do the Cylons who still think humanity's extinction is the way to go find a place alongside humans in a new society?
The series uses this tension to create one of its most minor but great moments.
Caprica Six: Along with the above, there are so many complicated issues surrounder her. She is basically directly responsible for the destruction of Caprica and for the deaths of many. How do humans reconcile keeping her alive and free? How does she deal with it? I know the latter was somewhat dealt with a few episodes back, but this is a much bigger issue than a few lines of dialog should be able to dispose of.
You can probably guess what's coming. But the series handles it the right way.
The reckoning: The rest of the Cylon fleet is out there somewhere. The Ones are going to have to be dealt with. But I wonder how? And even if they are, what about the Fours and Fives?
The ones/fours/fives are all still together. We'll get back to them.
Ellen and Boomer: Yeah, so...how exactly did they find the fleet? Again, was it all a plot between Bommer and the Ones? Will that be used to find the fleet and force a final confrontation? If so, how can the fleet possibly survive when they are so hopelessly outmatched and outgunned?
Wait on this.
The Centurions: Because of what they represent, I see no way the presence of Centurions could be accepted by humans in any sort of integrated society. This makes for some complicated issues. And to further complicate things, somewhere along the way, the issue of whether to remove their inhibitors is surely likely to come up again. Hmm...
Dealt with.
Three: Oh yeah, what about her? It seemed like she just remained behind on Earth. Is her character just going to be abandoned? That would be hard to believe.
She's done. Not sure why she stayed on Earth, but it's not totally OOC. She was looking for something bigger, and that something bigger was a wasteland.
Starbuck? What of Starbuck? Yeah, we still haven't forgotten.
The next episode (Someone to Watch Over Me) really gets into this. Every season has the obligatory Intense Starbuck character story written by Bradley Thompson and David Weddle, and you're there.
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Watched Deadlock last night. Wow. This has to be one of my favorite episodes if for no other reason than for the subtle drama. There was a lot of hugely emotional stuff going on that was handled so delicately. 5/5 stars.
Interesting. This is the only episode of the second half of season four I don't like. You probably saw it a lot differently than I did. Please elaborate.
In short, it just started tieing up a lot of loose ends and I am beginning to see that the final direction for those loose ends, while being FAR less from ideal, is satisfying. And the humanity of a lot of the characters, both human and Cylon, is starting to show through in how a lot of them are coming to terms in comletely different ways from the fact that the situation they are in and the only possible ways of coping with what lies ahead are...just impossible, but that they have to simply get a grip on that and muddle through the best they can even if they have to do so in ways that are contrary to every possible preconceived notion they may have held about how the world should work. It's just all so...human. Does that make sense? More later.
Starbuck? What of Starbuck? Yeah, we still haven't forgotten.
The next episode (Someone to Watch Over Me) really gets into this. Every season has the obligatory Intense Starbuck character story written by Bradley Thompson and David Weddle, and you're there.
Yeah, so...although it was against my better judgment given how busy I am and how little sleep I am now running on, I watched Someone To Watch Over Me Last Night, and...Chief...oh, Chief...why? *shakes head*
But on to Starbuck...Yeah, so, that's really interesting. I simultaneously laughed out loud and did an :omg: when (1) I realized that what Hera gave Starbuck were notes to a song, and (2) again when I realized what the song was. And with regard to Starbuck, yeah, that sheds a little light. But it also raises a LOT more questions than it answers, and ultimately just leaves us saying, "okay, so she somehow has a VERY direct connection to the Cylongs...but what is it?" Somehow, I can't shake the suspicion that we are going to be left hanging.
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Done. Reaction: whoa... More later. But I will say, having now watched the whole season, TSCC was SO well done and such a strong series, but since they ultimately never got to finish and were cut short after 2 seasons, I have to give it to BSG for best all-time sci-fi series. :tup
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Never saw TSSC, but I agree about Battlestar. It has its ups and downs, like everything, but the ups are really good and way more frequent than the downs, and ultimately the end is just do damn satisfying.
BTW, I lose it every time I get to the part where Gaius breaks down while saying “I know about farming” or something of the like. Something about seeing someone as deeply flawed as Gaius finally humbled and brought to his knees is really touching. It’s really bittersweet; Gaius has been a really shitty person, but now at the very least he’s got a chance to start again, even if it means having to toil at a hard life. It also goes well with the subtle parallels between Gaius and Six and Adam and Eve, the “first parents” who get cast out of the Garden: Paradise is “lost”, but at the same time now there’s the possibility for repentance and final reconciliation. It was the best possible ending to Gaius’ arc, which was maybe the most consistently awesome in the whole show.
Also, Adama and Rosalin… yeah, I lose it there too.
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Agreed on pretty much all of that. I will say that during the entire Daybreak finale, I was feeling like the flashback scenes to Caprica were excessively long. By the very end, it actually made a lot of sense, because the juxtaposition of those scenes with the scenes at the end on Earth really made you appreciate just how far these characters had come. But I still feel like there was too much.
One thing that wasn't clear to me. Maybe there were enough clues and I missed it. Or maybe it was left intentionally vague. There was some reference to it in the conversation between Adama and Roslyn when they are sitting under the tree, but again, it was very vaguely worded. So is the "Earth" that they settled on the same "Earth" they previously visited that had been nuked, or a different one that they just renamed Earth? I can se arguments both ways. Not sure what the correct answer is.
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This is a new Earth, not the same one that was the 13th Colony.
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BTW, I lose it every time I get to the part where Gaius breaks down while saying “I know about farming” or something of the like.
Yep.
Also, Adama and Rosalin… yeah, I lose it there too.
Of course.
One thing that wasn't clear to me. Maybe there were enough clues and I missed it. Or maybe it was left intentionally vague. There was some reference to it in the conversation between Adama and Roslyn when they are sitting under the tree, but again, it was very vaguely worded. So is the "Earth" that they settled on the same "Earth" they previously visited that had been nuked, or a different one that they just renamed Earth? I can se arguments both ways. Not sure what the correct answer is.
At the end of season 3, they show Earth with the Continental United States. That's the Earth from the end of the show and, within the reality of the show, the Earth we live on today.
When they get to 13th Colony Earth, you'll notice that you can never see any distinct Earth-like shapes on it. It's a different planet.
The writers did a good job hiding it.
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Oh, the BSG finale.
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I know, right? It's so good!
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I really enjoyed the season finale.
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Also, Adama and Rosalin… yeah, I lose it there too.
Of course.
Anyone who doesn't cry here doesn't have a soul.
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I cried a fair bit in that episode. Emotional times.
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I cried a fair bit in that episode. Emotional times.
-hug-
...hey, when opportunity knocks, right?
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I really enjoyed the season finale.
Me too. And it covered such a thorough range of emotion, from the action-packed seige on the colony, to the melancholy yet calming colonization of earth, and everything in between. So good. In particular, I enjoyed the fullfillment of the opera house vision. I didn't know that was coming.
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The conclusion of the opera house vision was the only thing that was a big letdown for me. It was something that was being hinted/teased since the first season and to be... well, that, was a letdown.
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I thought the opera house conclusion was great, very nicely done and like bosk says, kinda unexpected!
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Yeah, I thought they had pretty much resolved the opera house vision issue earlier and didn't know it was going to be revisited so specifically.
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Yeah, I thought they had pretty much resolved the opera house vision issue earlier and didn't know it was going to be revisited so specifically.
Please give us more of your opinions on the finale.
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It was good.
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Way to spoil it for all the newbies, bosk...
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:(
BRB. I have a sudden urge to go listen to All Along The Watchtower.
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It was good.
Hahaha. Gonna make me work, aren't you Bosky.
- Were you satisfied or unsatisfied by the final Starbuck reveal?
- Which moments did you find the most emotionally affecting and why? (Random scene that really gets me - All the ships flying into the sun. The first time I saw the episode I didn't get it. Then I realized it was about giving the fleet a viking funeral, which makes me love it. The reorchestrated theme from the original series serving as background music is a brilliant touch).
- Having seen the entirety of Baltar's arc, what is your final opinion of the character? Do you think he is redeemed? Do you think he genuinely transformed?
- What did you think of Brother Cavil committing suicide?
- IMO: I don't know if Galactica ramming into the colony topped the atmosphere jump from Exodus Part II, but it's certainly a worthy successor to one of the best moments of the show. At least equally as awesome. Agree or disagree?
- Probably the defining element of the finale, for better or for worse, is how it really goes for broke in terms of being really warm and emotional. Even though it has flaws (mostly in terms of the logic of the plot), I appreciated how the show wanted to end on a positive note. It rewards you for caring. What do you think?
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- What did you think of Brother Cavil committing suicide?
- IMO: I don't know if Galactica ramming into the colony topped the atmosphere jump from Exodus Part II, but it's certainly a worthy successor to one of the best moments of the show. At least equally as awesome. Agree or disagree?
My two cents on those questions:
I know some people disagree, but I always thought that was perfectly in character.
Agreed.
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- Were you satisfied or unsatisfied by the final Starbuck reveal?
I thought it was well done, actually. I'm sure a lot of people must have been clamoring for some more concrete answers, but it spelled out just enough, IMO, to make you buy into it. It gave you enough to understand in basic terms what she is and why she was there, but still shrouded enough of the whole thing in mystery to make you appreciate that whatever the being is supposed to be that is referred to as "God" really is a powerful, mysterious being that is able to do things we cannot comprehend.
Understanding that she really was actually sent back from the dead, I'm also inclined to believe that she really did die when she went into the storm as well. So that means she was actually sent back from the dead twice. She died on the first "earth" and then again in the storm. Although, perhaps these are actually the same event. What leads me to say that is, the viper she returned in was somehow modified and different from the one she had originally flown into the storm. There is no indication the remains of the viper they found on "earth" was different. And what would a viper from the present day be doing on a planet that was torched 2,000 years ago anyway? So here's what I'm thinking: The storm was somehow some anomaly that sent present day Starbuck back in time where her remains crash landed on earth. If that's the case, then she only really DID die once. Maybe all that is obvious, but I had to noodle through it.
- Which moments did you find the most emotionally affecting and why? (Random scene that really gets me - All the ships flying into the sun. The first time I saw the episode I didn't get it. Then I realized it was about giving the fleet a viking funeral, which makes me love it. The reorchestrated theme from the original series serving as background music is a brilliant touch).
I'll have to come back to this, but there were quite a few. Roslyn working in sick bay got me. A lot of the "resolution" scenes on earth at the end of the show as well, such as Roslyn passing.
- Having seen the entirety of Baltar's arc, what is your final opinion of the character? Do you think he is redeemed? Do you think he genuinely transformed?
That's a tough one. Yeah, I think we really HAVE TO conclude that he was redeemed and transformed. I just don't WANT TO conclude that. Which is an interesting conflict, and the fact that I am still having that conflict shows how well done his character was written.
- What did you think of Brother Cavil committing suicide?
Seemed random and irrational. But while it could have simply been a throwaway by the writers, not really knowing what else to do with him, I choose to think they intentionally made it random and illogical because, despite having a complex orchestrated, calculated plan, there was much about him that still remained random and irrational despite that cold, calculated nature.
- IMO: I don't know if Galactica ramming into the colony topped the atmosphere jump from Exodus Part II, but it's certainly a worthy successor to one of the best moments of the show. At least equally as awesome. Agree or disagree?
I agree. And the impact of both of those scenes, but especially the one with the colony, was augmented by the fact that the writers somehow managed to make the ship a character as well as just a ship. You were made to care about and feel for the ship. It was every bit as much a major character as any human or cylon in the series. ...which given the major conflict in the series of "human" vs. "machine," and how that conflict blurs in both directions, is deliciously ironic.
- Probably the defining element of the finale, for better or for worse, is how it really goes for broke in terms of being really warm and emotional. Even though it has flaws (mostly in terms of the logic of the plot), I appreciated how the show wanted to end on a positive note. It rewards you for caring. What do you think?
Yeah, I agree.
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Just an FYI, Cavils suicide was actually the idea of his actor Dean Stockwell.
Also, I once read a theory (though with obviously no proof) about Anders becoming the "god" character. Thoughts?
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That would have been an interesting arc, but they really didn't plant any seeds to lead me to believe that they were going for anything like that.
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I see Bosk made it to the end, congrats.
As for the finale-yeah I bawl like a baby at the one particular Adama/Roslin scene every time I watch it. EVERY time.
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I bawled my eyes out at the Adama/Roslin scene - I mean, I knew she was dying but the scene just made it hit you like a ton of bricks.
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If you didn't cry in that scene you have no soul. My brother was laughing at me at that point (to be fair I cried a LOT in that episode), he is immune to all things emotional.
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Sounds like he's an aberration then. :jets:
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Random thought on Daybreak - Bear McCreary even said that he wanted to bust out something special for the music in this episode, and it shows. I don't think any episode of any TV show is this good musically.
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Further reflection on the series has led me to another interesting revelation. The show did a really good job of presenting interesting plot twists where everything that you assumed, or everything that the characters assumed, turns out to be wrong. Here's another possible one of those: It was widely assumed that the prophecy of the dying leader leading the people to earth referred to Roslyn. Roslyn herself believed this to be true. I'm thinking it actually has an intentional double meaning that we were not meant to discover until Daybreak. I think it also quite clearly refers to Starbuck. Thoughts?
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Further reflection on the series has led me to another interesting revelation. The show did a really good job of presenting interesting plot twists where everything that you assumed, or everything that the characters assumed, turns out to be wrong. Here's another possible one of those: It was widely assumed that the prophecy of the dying leader leading the people to earth referred to Roslyn. Roslyn herself believed this to be true. I'm thinking it actually has an intentional double meaning that we were not meant to discover until Daybreak. I think it also quite clearly refers to Starbuck. Thoughts?
Possibly. The show also made the theory that the dying leader was the Galactica itself.
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Oh, I hadn't thought of that.
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Started a rewatch inspired by this thread. I'm almost finished with the first season already which has been pretty much nonstop good episodes. There were quite a few episodes that I didn't remember at all so this has, so far, been a nice refresher.
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I think that the finale pretty clearly stresses that the "dying leader" was Galactica. Somewhat of a retcon, but an acceptable one.
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- Were you satisfied or unsatisfied by the final Starbuck reveal?
I thought it was well done, actually. I'm sure a lot of people must have been clamoring for some more concrete answers, but it spelled out just enough, IMO, to make you buy into it. It gave you enough to understand in basic terms what she is and why she was there, but still shrouded enough of the whole thing in mystery to make you appreciate that whatever the being is supposed to be that is referred to as "God" really is a powerful, mysterious being that is able to do things we cannot comprehend.
When Baltar initially called her an angel in the hanger bay, that made me buy into that line. Something about Baltar in the last season seemed to make him quite trustworthy. :lol The minds that be did state it was supposed to be ambiguous, I know they didn't want to clearly define the "god" that certainly existed, instead leaving what "it" actually was open to interpretation. One of the last lines, with the angels in modern day, clearly stated "it" did not like being revered to as a deity.
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If you didn't cry in that scene you have no soul.
Anyone who doesn't cry here doesn't have a soul.
HOW ORIGINAL!
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I didn't cry. I thought that he was looking for a good place to crash the ship into and I was kind of disappointed by the outcome.
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What.
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I didn't cry. It was a good scene though.
Finished season 1, started up season 2 on my rewatch. The two-part finale wasn't as good as I remembered it, but the opening episodes of season 2? Wham blam, forgot how great of a premier "Scattered" was.
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I remember last time I re-watched it, the scene that really gave me the shivers was during the coup when Roslyn thought Adama had been killed and said "Do you hear me??!! I'm coming for you!"
Just put me in my place.
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I didn't cry during the finale, but I laughed a lot.
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I assumed you were kicking and screaming the whole time.
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I loved it when Tyrol choked Tori. I always hated her.
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If you didn't cry in that scene you have no soul.
Anyone who doesn't cry here doesn't have a soul.
HOW ORIGINAL!
:lol I'm subconsciously influenced by you Rich
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So i have finally reached s4 and just saw e14! My god that was intense!
William "frakkin" Adama!! :metal
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Yeah, that mutiny arc was pretty intense. The next couple of episodes may feel like they let up on the intensity just a bit, but not much. You're in for a good ride toward the finale.
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Yeah, that mutiny arc was pretty intense. The next couple of episodes may feel like they let up on the intensity just a bit, but not much. You're in for a good ride toward the finale.
Nice! :tup
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Still on my BSG rewatch. Just got to 'No Exit" and, ugh that's about all I can say about it. Ugh. Some people talk about 'Black Market' or 'The Woman King' or even 'Unfinished Business' as being clunkers, but they ain't got nothing on 'No Exit.'
On the plus side 'Revelations' and 'Sometimes A Great Notion' were still pretty fantastic and likely up there with the best of them.
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Honestly, I can't pick one arc of this show that's my favorite. The mutiny arc in Blood on the Scales is one of my favorites, especially since *SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER* Zarek is a character that really intrigued me throughout the show, and I wanted to see him in action since Bastille Day, but the completion of Gaeta's tragedy is what I love. His trusting nature, his willingness to put faith in leaders that inspire change, also shown with Baltar on New Caprica, ended up being his downfall. Watching his reaction as he realizes that it's all spiraling out of control when Zarek murders the Quorom, oh man.*END SPOILER, BUT WATCH OUT, I'M GONNA BRING UP A FEW MORE. LIKE NEXT PARAGRAPH*.
The New Caprica arc takes the cake for me, though. That entire arc. From seeing our favorite characters as terrorists, to the night time kidnapping scene, to the EPIC finish, it had me gripped from start to finish. Gotta give a shout out to the *SPOILER* reveal of the Final Five. For days after watching that episode, I was in disbelief. *ENDSPOILER*
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A wild Zeltar appears.
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The New Caprica arc is definitely my favorite. I think it took a lot of balls to do that and do it successfully and the way the ramifications played out over the following episodes. That's BSG at its best right there.
The Pegasus episodes come in a close second mostly because Michelle Forbes is awesome as Caine.
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The Pegasus arc is my favourite. Cain was my favourite character.
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The New Caprica arc is definitely my favorite. I think it took a lot of balls to do that and do it successfully and the way the ramifications played out over the following episodes. That's BSG at its best right there.
Ah, dude, I feel like that arc's ramifications played out over the course of the rest of the show. You could argue that every single character that was stuck on New Caprica was changed for the rest of the series. I've talked with my dad about watching BSG from Season 3, then season 4, then watching one and finishing the show from there, because of how much that arc changes the show from seasons 1/2 to 3/4.
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Not going to read this because I don't want too many spoilers. But my wife and I are just getting into this on Netflix.
LOVED LOVED LOVED the first two seasons, but we just watched the series 3 premier, and I really don't like where they are taking it so far. They've essentially made me hate everyone on the show. During the first two seasons, I liked the way that we had the good guys and the bad guys...and the good guys had some bad people and the bad guys had some good people. It really made for an interesting dynamic.
But now I feel like EVERYONE has compromised their principles and there is no one left to root for. I found myself reminded of the modern political climate of being presented with two extremes with no middle ground or balanced person in sight. It was kind of depressing. The twist with Starbuck's baby is the only thing that's making me hold out some hope. We're spending the weekend getting through as much of season 3 as we can...I hope it gets better.
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Season 3 is the weakest in my ranking, for that same reason. Though it did suit the tone of that period, which was very dark and bleak. Hang in there, you've got plenty of great episodes ahead! :tup
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That aspect of BSG is exactly what makes it the best show ever for me. Simple good guys vs bad guys is a bit boring. A full cast where nobody is perfect, where lots of people have good intentions but screw up, is much more believable and profound to me.
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That aspect of BSG is exactly what makes it the best show ever for me. Simple good guys vs bad guys is a bit boring. A full cast where nobody is perfect, where lots of people have good intentions but screw up, is much more believable and profound to me.
I agree, but it's not as entertaining to watch as the other seasons (though the latter half of season 3 started the recovery). Perhaps weak was too strong a term.
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That aspect of BSG is exactly what makes it the best show ever for me. Simple good guys vs bad guys is a bit boring. A full cast where nobody is perfect, where lots of people have good intentions but screw up, is much more believable and profound to me.
I agree actually....but that is exactly why I loved 1 and 2. Because it WASN'T that simple. I liked the angle that the Cylons had reaped all the human baggage by becoming human. I liked that there were detractors in the Cylon ranks who wanted to be human, and also that there were humans like Baltar who were neither good nor evil....but much more complex.
But Season 3 has taken characters like Starbuck, Apollo, Tighe (sp?) and even the President...and taken me from really feeling for them, to just being disgusted with them. I abhor where they've gone mentally and psychologically and I'm just hoping there's some redemption coming down the pipe. The fact that these characters have become so bitter that they have become *WORSE* than the enemy actually has me rooting more for the Cylons at this point....but not by much.
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Well, the events on New Caprica were bound to make anyone a bit um bitter to say the least.
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Just got done with Episode 8 (the boxing match episode). My loathing of Starbuck had been building up for a very long time...but now I just find her to be repulsive. I view her as a villain along the same lines as Sherri from 24.
That is one completely screwed up psycho chick, and I honestly feel deep sorrow and regret for anyone with the misfortune to end up in a relationship with her.
Maybe it's just because I've known "tough chicks" like her, and I honestly don't believe them capable of ever having a normal relationship in any way, shape or form. Even if they end up with someone normal, they just spread chaos, drama and psychosis wherever they go, and scar the lives of anyone they touch. So it could be I'm just biased. :-\
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Just got done with Episode 8 (the boxing match episode). My loathing of Starbuck had been building up for a very long time...but now I just find her to be repulsive. I view her as a villain along the same lines as Sherri from 24.
That is one completely screwed up psycho chick, and I honestly feel deep sorrow and regret for anyone with the misfortune to end up in a relationship with her.
Maybe it's just because I've known "tough chicks" like her, and I honestly don't believe them capable of ever having a normal relationship in any way, shape or form. Even if they end up with someone normal, they just spread chaos, drama and psychosis wherever they go, and scar the lives of anyone they touch. So it could be I'm just biased. :-\
When I was at the point in the series where you are, I felt about the same way. But...just hang in there. The rest of season 3 is very hit and miss for me. You are about to hit what I consider to be some VERY good episodes, followed by some not so good ones, followed by some good ones, etc. When you finally make it to the last episode of season 3, you will likely experience such a wide array of emotions that it is hard to process. Please make sure your floor is clean when you are watching, because your jaw will probably end up there.
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Just got done with Episode 8 (the boxing match episode). My loathing of Starbuck had been building up for a very long time...but now I just find her to be repulsive. I view her as a villain along the same lines as Sherri from 24.
That is one completely screwed up psycho chick, and I honestly feel deep sorrow and regret for anyone with the misfortune to end up in a relationship with her.
Maybe it's just because I've known "tough chicks" like her, and I honestly don't believe them capable of ever having a normal relationship in any way, shape or form. Even if they end up with someone normal, they just spread chaos, drama and psychosis wherever they go, and scar the lives of anyone they touch. So it could be I'm just biased. :-\
When I was at the point in the series where you are, I felt about the same way. But...just hang in there. The rest of season 3 is very hit and miss for me. You are about to hit what I consider to be some VERY good episodes, followed by some not so good ones, followed by some good ones, etc. When you finally make it to the last episode of season 3, you will likely experience such a wide array of emotions that it is hard to process. Please make sure your floor is clean when you are watching, because your jaw will probably end up there.
Absolutely a believer. The episodes *have* been getting far better. I LOVE Baltar's lawyer. Fantastic character from the word go. I didn't shed a tear at Starbuck's death (although somehow I doubt she's really dead) and the only thing I have not been able to get into is *everyone else* being sad about Starbuck's death, (wha????) and yet being perfectly willing to string up Baltar (a *completely* misunderstood character) as the equal of Hitler himself.
I feel like this series is a bit backwards, because it makes me despise someone I thought was supposed to be the "good guy" that everyone from the human side loves (Starbuck) and have complete sympathy for the "bad guy" that everyone on the human side wants to be strung up by his testicles (Baltar).
I am just now sitting down to watch the two-part season 3 finale....Baltar's trial. REALLY psyched for it...I think it's going to be awesome.
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I will definitely have to tune back in to see what you think once you finish that double episode. In case you forgot to do it beforehand, the break between pt. 1 and pt. 2 is an excellent time to clean whatever part of the floor your jaw is likely to end up on.
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I don't see how it's hard to believe for everyone to be sad about Starbuck, as you said before, maybe your hates comes from knowing that type of person in real life, but she's been an extremely important figure in the fleet since the beginning! Fighting on every battle in the Vipers, a member of the resistance in New Caprica and being part of every important thing that has happened.
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A-MA-ZING!!!
(but the way it ended was a bit.....IDK....lame. I mean, Hendrix? Really? The Cylons channel Jimi to awaken their sleepers? *REALLY*???)
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Watch Razor before you move to season 4. ...and the Hendrix song is explained well, just watch.
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I don't see how it's hard to believe for everyone to be sad about Starbuck, as you said before, maybe your hates comes from knowing that type of person in real life, but she's been an extremely important figure in the fleet since the beginning! Fighting on every battle in the Vipers, a member of the resistance in New Caprica and being part of every important thing that has happened.
It's not just that....I just don't see how she is in any way a "likeable" character by any stretch of human imagination. Especially when people like Baltar and the Cylons in general are held up as such "demons". I mean, Baltar might be a chickens**t weasel....but he is still INFINITELY more "likeable" than Starbuck. She is just obnoxious, mean spirited, vindictive, manipulative and has almost no redeemable human qualities beyond some exceptional technical skills. I just couldn't suspend my disbelief enough to figure out why on earth anyone would have so little self respect as to stoop to actually sharing an emotional tie with her.
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Watch Razor before you move to season 4. ...and the Hendrix song is explained well, just watch.
I had done some research awhile back, and had been curious about Razor. I did read too many spoilers, but enough to know that it was a sortof backstory involving Admiral Cain. At first I wasn't sure it what order to put it....but I'm actually a bit surprised that Netflix has it as the first episode of Season 4. (I know that's not technically correct, but it's interesting that that would put it in the proper airing order)
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Watch Razor before you move to season 4. ...and the Hendrix song is explained well, just watch.
Forgot the green font, there.
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That's the proper viewing order. Despite your spoilers, you probably did not see what it reveals as important to the story going forward. Yes, it is backstory, but they used it for a purpose in it's viewing order between the seasons.
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Watch Razor before you move to season 4. ...and the Hendrix song is explained well, just watch.
Forgot the green font, there.
Oh shut it. You know the reason for viewing it between the seasons, it affects the first part of season 4.
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That's the proper viewing order. Despite your spoilers, you probably did not see what it reveals as important to the story going forward. Yes, it is backstory, but they used it for a purpose in it's viewing order between the seasons.
This. The DVD box sets have it in this order too, and it's defnitely the right place. Even though the events happen much earlier in the story chronology, this is definitely the right time to view because (1) it now won't spoil things that have happened since, and (2) as Yorost said, in addition to just being backstory on Cain, there is a lot that is important to the story going forward. Since I had the DVD box set, I was VERY tempted as you likely are to skip it and pick up the story where it left off. I get it. And you won't be disappointed when you jump back in. But watch Razor first.
A-MA-ZING!!!
(but the way it ended was a bit.....IDK....lame. I mean, Hendrix? Really? The Cylons channel Jimi to awaken their sleepers? *REALLY*???)
I don't want to say too much about the music, because it kind of falls by the wayside for awhile. But it comes back and will all eventually make sense. RESIST the temptation to try to find an explanation. I would highly advise staying completely spoiler free going forward. They payoff is pretty good if you do, IMO.
Regarding Starbuck: Yeah, I hear you. And you will probably end up hating her even more in the not too distant future. But, eventually...well, you'll see.
So just out of curiosity, did you figure out who any of the five were before the reveal? (and I don't mean just earlier in the episode, because clues were definitely there to figure some out) If so, when did you figure out whom? Any suspicions about who the fifth is?
EDIT: Oh, and if G.P. is not on your ignore list, it might not be a bad idea to put him there until you are done discussing BSG. Just sayin'. :biggrin:
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Watch Razor before you move to season 4. ...and the Hendrix song is explained well, just watch.
Forgot the green font, there.
Oh shut it. You know the reason for viewing it between the seasons, it affects the first part of season 4.
I wasn't talking about Razor.
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Oh, the song? Fine, it turns out with a much more reasonable explanation that it originally looked like it could, that's all I meant. ...and it is at least that much. Harp on their other decisions related to it, but once those are in place it isn't too bad a stretch for the song.
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It's not a stretch at all. Once the, uh...timeline...and other things are revealed, it not only makes sense, but is really cool.
A cool bit of trivia that gets resolved shortly as well: When Starbuck "dies," the scene where Adama smashes the model ship was not planned. He improvised that--much to the horror of the set department, as they had borrowed this VERY EXPENSIVE actual model ship from a collector.
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BTW....my last post had a typo. "I *DIDN'T* see too many spoilers...."
Settling in to watch Razor now....
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o......k.......
Not sure what to make of it. Really felt like a "setup" episode didn't it? It was very good...but definitely does not give the feeling of a stand-alone piece. Very much as promised. Like a build up to Season 4.
@bosk
I never really drew any conclusions as to who was and wasn't a Cylon. My wife had the Chief pegged a LONG time ago. (she's a smart one) The rest I had a suspicion once they all starting hearing the same music....although Tigh was a *complete* shock once I realized it was true.
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Yeah, I mean I honestly didn't love Razor the way a lot of people do either, but it's context that makes some things that are yet to occur make more sense.
So if I'm not mistaken, 10 of the 12 cylon humanoid models are now accounted for. Or is it 11 at this stage? Can't remember. Any thoughts on the remaining one(s)?
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Chief and Anders were long pegged as cylons by fans, though, it wasn't exactly planned. Both had hints, which could have been incidental, led to their choosing, or some of the later ones on purpose. This is a copy past from what I wrote to bosk1 summarizing the four and their hints...
Tyrol: Some people thought his relationship with Boomer gave hints, I don't buy it. Cavil at the end of Season 2 says he fears he's a cylon. The Temple of the Five was his coming out party. Then he withstood the vacuum way better than his wife, in case you missed the Temple.
Anders: Anders survived pneumonia with no antibiotics and terrible living conditions with no explanation. Not unthinkable, but a cylon would have much better odds than a human of doing so. His groups continued survival on Caprica would have been a handily explained if they were 'normal' cylons. This had helped make Anders a popular guess, though. The giveaway was Caprica Three's apology. She had meaningful screen time with three humans, Baltar, Cottle, and Anders. She tortured Baltar, but was at that point his lover. He was also soundly shown to be human an episode or two later. Cottle there wasn't anything to apologize for. Anders, she tried to murder face-to-face.
Tigh: The loss of his eye might have been symbolism. Otherwise the only possible hint is by close association with the other two in the resistance. I think they probably weren't thinking about him until late, but those two things played nicely.
Tory: Nothing that I know. I guess they just needed another one and didn't know what to do.
Bosk1 firmly disagrees with me regarding Anders and the apology, he thought it was for the torture of Tigh, I believe. There's a lot more to this, but we have to wait until later to discuss it due to spoilers. For now, I still hold that it meant Anders, with tv I think it had to be a direct connection to something on screen, so Anders was the only choice.
There really wasn't a lot, but of those four two had been pegged by fans. There's been no confirmation how long anyone thought about these characters, but the final decision on them were late. At the very, very, least, Tyrol had to have been know mid way through season 3 even though they've never said so. I think they suspected where they were going with him by the end of season 2. Fans suspicions on hints may have also led to their choosing, since they were starting to fit in people's minds, who knows. We know they weren't really absolute hints set by the show producers, but again, this is better discussed later to avoid spoilers from season 4.
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Yeah, I mean I honestly didn't love Razor the way a lot of people do either, but it's context that makes some things that are yet to occur make more sense.
Yup, that one line, though, it changes the way you view season 4 so dramatically. It just flips Starbuck from a source of salvation to a complete danger. Pretty clever way to come back and throw everyone back to the drawing board on theories. :lol
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11 are confirmed. There were only the "final five" left, and four were confirmed....although, according to my wife, all 5 were confirmed.
Seems weird to have a spoiler alert for a 10 year old show...but consider this your warning.
At the very end of the final episode of Season 3, Starbuck finished the next line in the song. My wife figures that seals the deal on her being the fifth, and I tend to agree.
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I don't see how it's hard to believe for everyone to be sad about Starbuck, as you said before, maybe your hates comes from knowing that type of person in real life, but she's been an extremely important figure in the fleet since the beginning! Fighting on every battle in the Vipers, a member of the resistance in New Caprica and being part of every important thing that has happened.
It's not just that....I just don't see how she is in any way a "likeable" character by any stretch of human imagination. Especially when people like Baltar and the Cylons in general are held up as such "demons". I mean, Baltar might be a chickens**t weasel....but he is still INFINITELY more "likeable" than Starbuck. She is just obnoxious, mean spirited, vindictive, manipulative and has almost no redeemable human qualities beyond some exceptional technical skills. I just couldn't suspend my disbelief enough to figure out why on earth anyone would have so little self respect as to stoop to actually sharing an emotional tie with her.
Fair enough, and while I never hated Baltar like the people of the fleet do (and even some of my friends who watched the show), I understand why they wanted to kill him. New Caprica wasn't exactly a vacation and because they don't know better, they blame him.
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Yeah, I disagree about the "apology." But, hey, that's fine. The fact that it is vague and open to several plausible explanations is actually pretty cool, IMO.
No comment on the fifth. You'll just have to wait and see. :biggrin: There are still a lot of cool twists and turns left.
On another note, I still really need to see The Plan. I forgot about it until this thread revived. I need to see if NetFlix has it on their digital streaming list.
EDIT: Shoot. Doesn't look like they have it. :(
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I haven't seen The Plan either. I actually forgot it existed. I was more than satisfied with the finale so I'm not sure I'd want to ruin that with a not-so-good epilogue.
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But it's not an epilogue, so I think you're probably okay. It covers the time period from just before the attack on the 12 colonies to when the two Cavil copies are flushed out of the Galactica airlock.
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Ah, sounds cool.
So does it actually answer some of those unanswered questions?
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I haven't seen The Plan, either. I don't know why, but it doesn't interest me.
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Ah, sounds cool.
So does it actually answer some of those unanswered questions?
Yes, but it depends on which questions you want answered. From my understanding, it does not provide any huge new insight, but it presents insight into what the cylons were thinking in terms of why they came up with the plan to kill humanity, why that plan necessarily expanded to include killing the survivors, why it changed completely into wanting a truce, and why the whole thing failed. From what I've read, it's kind of an interesting exercise in psychology seeing the two Cavils immerse themselves in humanity and being changed by that immersion, as Galatica Cavil has his hatred of humanity intensified by the experience while Caprica Cavil becomes sympathetic toward humanity. That's the gist of it, from what I've read.
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Hm. Cool, thanks. I'll definitely check it out.
And yeah, too bad it's not on Netflix.
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THAT CYLON HAG JUST SHOT THE CUTEST GIRL ON THE ENTIRE SHOW OUT THE AIRLOCK!!!!!
:censored
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I have to say that I have figured out why Baltar is the character I have the most sympathy for at this point. (I'm about 5 or 6 shows into season 4 now)
I don't defend his every action...and he really lacks a strong sense of loyalty and dedication to anyone other than himself. But for all of his faults, you know what I like about him? He has NEVER hated anyone, or raised his hand against anyone...or even ordered anyone else to take out some act of violence for him out of a sense of revenge. I've never seen him be a spiteful or resentful or hateful person. He's selfish to a fault at times...but he harbors no grudges against anyone. And that part of him really makes me feel like he IS the better man than most of the so-called "good guys" from the show, in spite of his faults.
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Butterfingers! :lol ...his relationship with the little twerp Gaeta is interesting, I love where it goes in season 4.
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That's one of the things I love about the show, they sometimes make you question who you're really rooting for and everyone is pretty much grey... except for Helo who's a shining knight of justice (which makes me hate him).
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Helo is just as gray. Acts to blindly stubborn without giving a damn if he is right or not, just that he thinks he is right. ...and not just on textbook technicalities, he is genuinely dangerous to humanity.
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https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2013/05/201357123155791818.html (https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2013/05/201357123155791818.html)
Pennsylvania fracking itself to death! I wonder what that must be like, a whole state, to the death.
https://www.jsonline.com/news/usandworld/plans-to-export-us-natural-gas-stir-debate-vu9u1b0-207125131.html (https://www.jsonline.com/news/usandworld/plans-to-export-us-natural-gas-stir-debate-vu9u1b0-207125131.html)
Now U.S. producers are poised to ship vast quantities of gas overseas ... could set off a renewed frenzy of fracking.
They sure do get excited about those sales.
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Helo is just as gray. Acts to blindly stubborn without giving a damn if he is right or not, just that he thinks he is right. ...and not just on textbook technicalities, he is genuinely dangerous to humanity.
He might be, in like Game of Thrones or something, but I think BSG plays it very straight with regards to Helo. I don't think any of the creative crew has ever said otherwise.
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There is a seeming plot hole that is bothering me just because it seems very obvious, but I have not seen it addressed anywhere. I have been rewatching, and am in the middle of the occupation of New Caprica. There are lots of little things one could nitpick, and, yes, it's just a fun sci-fi show, so you just have to suspend belief and go with all the little faults and inconsistencies if you want to be able to enjoy it. But here's the one that bugs me:
In the last episode of season 2 when the Cylons first show up on New Caprica, the #5 model tells Baltar that they had no idea where the fleet had gone to, and probably wouldn't have found them except for the nuclear blast signature from the Natalie #6 model blowing up the Cloud Nine. That doesn't seem likely. I guess there are a few possible explanations, including maybe #5 was lying to Baltar just to screw with him and make him feel more guilty. But I think more likely, it's just a plot hole. The reason is, they knew about New Caprica, and there were talks of colonizing it, before they discovered that the Galactica Cavill was a Cylon. When he was airlocked, he would have known that the colonists were going there. Even if he wasn't privy to the exact coordinates, he would have known that wherever it was, it was only one jump away and he would have had enough other details that the Cylons should have easily been able to find it even if they didn't know exactly where it is. Has anyone seen any discussion of this point anywhere? Anyone have any theories?
Another related problem I have with this very same arc is, once Natalie blows up the Cloud Nine with Baltar's nuke, there would have/should have been a major investigation of Baltar. You don't just have a nuke go missing and then be detonated and kill thousands, and just say, "Oops, well next time, be more careful about where you store those nukes, okay doc?"
This is one of the few places where the writing seems to have gotten sloppy and they had plotlines that just seem to have outright mistakes in them.
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I tend to attribute any of the plot holes and oddities at the end of the second season to how the writers got caught up in the mid-finale timeskip (I own a book guide to the second season, and Moore in particular enthused a lot about how nobody had done that sort of mid-episode skip and how fantastic the idea was) and some things fell through the cracks in their interest to cram as much "here's what's happened!" into the episode. Which may be why most shows don't do mid-episode time skips. :lol
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Yeah, that could be. And if the consensus is that it was just a mistake, I can live with that. I was just hoping there was some explanation I wasn't seeing and that you guys could convince me all is well. :lol
This has already been said, I think, but having just watched the end of Exodus pt. 2 again last night, I have to say again: That final hangar scene focusing on Adama, Tigh, and Starbuck is probably the most simultaneously triumphant and tragic scenes in the entire series and is just SO well done. That may be my favorite episode.
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Explaining the nuclear blast reason? The questions I have is, how much of an area does one jump cover and how accurately did Cavil know the starting point? Especially given that it's a sphere of free movement, maybe the Cylons just don't have the proper resources to search the possible area exhaustively. The nuclear blast could have pinpointed them to other information, like being able to determine the fleet's trajectory. Might be hard to justify spending years searching for a fleet you're not completely sure settled down permanently. ...so finding the nuclear blast maybe just made an infeasible or daunting task of searching easy.
Do we know that Cavil was resurrected? If they weren't within range of resurrection ship that information may have just been lost. (Looked it up, apparently he was according to The Plan, which I still haven't seen)
Baltar and nuclear bomb? I don't remember the details of this story, but it feels like maybe it was 'stupid' on everyone's judgment. Did they just leave him in charge of its security? I'd possibly blame whoever did that as he's obviously no full time security detail.
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Baltar and nuclear bomb? I don't remember the details of this story, but it feels like maybe it was 'stupid' on everyone's judgment. Did they just leave him in charge of its security? I'd possibly blame whoever did that as he's obviously no full time security detail.
Baltar gave the nuke to Natalie's terrorist friend, who brought it back to Cloud Nine and gave it to Natalie, as instructed. Baltar wins the election and announces that they are going to colonize New Caprica immediately. He then goes to see Natalie to tell her they can be together on New Caprica. She said she isn't going, has sex with him, and then detonates the bomb when he leaves, which takes out Cloud Nine and at least two other ships, killing a few thousand people.
It isn't clear whether the Quorum was onboard the Cloud Nine and where killed in the blast. Whether they were or not, I'm willing to concede that Baltar was essentially in the position of a dictator. But notwithstanding that, it would be completely out of character for Adama, the press, and various other strong personalities we have seen to have just said, "Hmmm, well, President Baltar just wants to move on and not ask any questions, so we'll just let slide the fact that a nuke that he had custody of somehow got onboard Cloud Nine and was detonated, killing a few thousand people and destroying at least three of the precious few ships left in existence." There's no way Adama lets that go.
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I miss this show.
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I miss this show.
Me too. Fortunately, my best friend gets back from grad school at the end of the month, and we're picking up in the middle of season 4 the day after she flies back. :corn She's a new viewer, this will be my 3rd time through.
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**SPOILERS** (well, duh...)
Anders . . . The giveaway was Caprica Three's apology. She had meaningful screen time with three humans, Baltar, Cottle, and Anders. She tortured Baltar, but was at that point his lover. He was also soundly shown to be human an episode or two later. Cottle there wasn't anything to apologize for. Anders, she tried to murder face-to-face.
My second time through, I'm softening a bit to this. But overall, I have to say that I still think it's wrong. What the Cylons did to Saul and Ellen Tigh on New Caprica was far, FAR worse than her ever-so-brief tussle with Anders. If she had "killed" Anders, he would resurrect, not much worse for wear. Saul was physically tortured and had an eye gouged out, not to mention being couped up in solitary. Ellen was forced to whore herself out to one of the Cavill's. And both were forced to live in fear in what amounted to a concentration camp for a couple of years. And seeing all five, she would have reacted the way she did and apologized so profoundly to Anders, while not saying a word to the Tighs? Sorry, I don't buy it.
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**SPOILERS** (well, duh...)
Anders . . . The giveaway was Caprica Three's apology. She had meaningful screen time with three humans, Baltar, Cottle, and Anders. She tortured Baltar, but was at that point his lover. He was also soundly shown to be human an episode or two later. Cottle there wasn't anything to apologize for. Anders, she tried to murder face-to-face.
My second time through, I'm softening a bit to this. But overall, I have to say that I still think it's wrong. What the Cylons did to Saul and Ellen Tigh on New Caprica was far, FAR worse than her ever-so-brief tussle with Anders. If she had "killed" Anders, he would resurrect, not much worse for wear. Saul was physically tortured and had an eye gouged out, not to mention being couped up in solitary. Ellen was forced to whore herself out to one of the Cavill's. And both were forced to live in fear in what amounted to a concentration camp for a couple of years. And seeing all five, she would have reacted the way she did and apologized so profoundly to Anders, while not saying a word to the Tighs? Sorry, I don't buy it.
Just read something online where Moore confirmed that it was intended to be to Ellen. Makes sense. I win.
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So...finally saw The Plan over the weekend.
***SPOILERS (DUH!)***
Initial gripe: There was no need to put gratuitous porn in the movie. It added absolutely nothing and was pointless and tasteless.
That being said, aside from that, it was actually quite good. It was cool seeing a lot of the events we were already familiar with being viewed from the Cylon perspective.
Interestingly, I think one of the characters that got developed the most despite many of her key transformational moments not being shown at all was Boomer. The scenes from the series where she has been resurrected on Caprica and is struggling with her identity really took on a completely different light as a result of seeing the level of manipulation Cavill exerted over her. She is a much more pitiable character in light of the cruelty of that manipulation.
I liked that there was more done with the Fours, since they were probably the least significant of the numbered models in the series. What was done with them in this movie added a bit of depth that felt completely consistent with their treatment in the series as a whole. The backstory of the Four that was in the fleet that had married a human was excellent. And his wife was a really interesting, compelling character as well. Her interaction with the Chief toward the end was one of the most powerful scenes in the entire movie.
Poor Fives. They were really made out to be the doofuses of the Cylon race. That wasn't really there in the series, but it felt consistent was well. The "But his jacket was burgundy. This is teal." was hilarious.
Of course, the two Cavills were center stage. Galactica Cavill became even more evil and sinister. The way he was played was a great exposition of the same character that we saw go so quickly from cold and calculating to manic and obsessive at the drop of a hat in the series. Caprica Cavill, on the other hand, seemed a bit more inconsistent. The writers had a difficult task with his character because they needed to show a credible transformation from essentially being the same as Galactica Cavill in the beginning, to eventually winding up truly realizing that the plan was a mistake. That's a very challenging transformation to try to portray and make believable. I think they did a mediocre job with it, but not great by any stretch. I could understand the way his motivation was portrayed, but I never truly bought it either. Again, not that it didn't make sense, but it just wasn't presented with enough weight to truly pursuade the viewer that it was significant enough to truly move him. Although we did see some of the struggles he had trying to reconcile what he was feeling with the plan itself, something about it all fell just a little bit short of selling me on it 100%. I was mostly there, but not completely. But again, this was a huge challenge, and I definitely don't think the writers botched it by any stretch. I just wish it had been done just a little bit better. Minor gripe in the context of the bigger picture.
Another standout moment for me in the series was "Hooker Six"'s monologue toward the end where she basically forces the audience to a conclusion we didn't want to draw, which is basically, "We Cylons are supposed to be cold, calculating kiling machines. But in terms of wiping out humanity, we really aren't very good at this." The horror! We as the audience were repeatedly drawn to the brink of that conclusion in the series, only to have Moore and his writers repeatedly snatch us back in a variety of ways. Six does the same here by pointing out that the X-factor in every scenario where they failed was love. Which is basically one of the major themes and one of the major plot arcs in the series. I mean, the Cylons basically become almost more human than the humans who created them by learning what love is. I thought that having that theme echoed here by that particular Six in that particular monologue was brilliant.
Overall, I thought it was very good. Yes, it had some flaws. But it nicely complemented the series. And while it did not bring much new substance to the table, it brought some new and interesting layers to what was already there. After having seen it, I think the few criticisms I have seen of it are largely unjustified.
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Since I'm not sure people are getting the concept of "discussion forum," I will clarify: I said some stuff. Your turn now, guys.
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:lol Patience bosky. You said a lot of stuff.
I liked The Plan. It wasn't perfect, and it's kinda weird having it after the finale because the stories have all been completed, but it does provide some great extra context and mostly does it really nicely.
I've actually been watching BSG through again, my third watch through, having not watched it in maybe 3 years. Been wanting to watch it again for a while and fortunately my girlfriend expressed an interest, and she's been loving it. We're just in the early stages of season 4 at the moment, and I'm enjoying it just as much this time as I did before. Damn do I love this show!
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Just started watching this a few weeks ago. A friend suggested it off-hand when talking about TV shows and then I ended up bored one day, so I was able to give it a shot. I'm on season two right now and I was absolutely blown away with the first two episodes of the series to begin with (the 90-minute ones). The effects seem top-notch, too. Really good for a show that started airing only in 2003. Can't wait to watch more when I have the time to do so.
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Just started watching this a few weeks ago. A friend suggested it off-hand when talking about TV shows and then I ended up bored one day, so I was able to give it a shot. I'm on season two right now and I was absolutely blown away with the first two episodes of the series to begin with (the 90-minute ones). The effects seem top-notch, too. Really good for a show that started airing only in 2003. Can't wait to watch more when I have the time to do so.
Be careful about not looking at spoilers! I recommend NOT reading back through the thread until you are done. DON'T DO IT! But feel free to pop in and post, and we can comment without giving anything away.
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:lol Patience bosky. You said a lot of stuff.
I liked The Plan. It wasn't perfect, and it's kinda weird having it after the finale because the stories have all been completed, but it does provide some great extra context and mostly does it really nicely.
I've actually been watching BSG through again, my third watch through, having not watched it in maybe 3 years. Been wanting to watch it again for a while and fortunately my girlfriend expressed an interest, and she's been loving it. We're just in the early stages of season 4 at the moment, and I'm enjoying it just as much this time as I did before. Damn do I love this show!
Yay, discussion! :D Some really cool hybrid utterances in The Plan as well. These don't spoil anything, so no spoiler tags. Here are a couple of my favorites:
One of the most chilling monologues ever from the hybrid during the attack:
Progress reports arriving. The farms of Aerolon are burning. The beaches of Canceron are burning. The plains of Leonis are burning. The jungles of Scorpia are burning. The pastures of Tauron are burning. The harbors of Picon are burning. The cities of Caprica are burning. The oceans of Aquaria are burning. The courthouses of Libran are burning. The forests of Virgon are burning. The Colonies of Man lie trampled at our feet.
The way those lines were delivered, along with the visual imagery...just...wow.
Another one, that has a bit of awesome with a bit of funny at the end:
Counting down. All functions nominal. All functions optimal. Counting down. The center holds. The falcon hears the falconer. Infrastructure, check. Wetware, check. Everyone hang on to the lap bar, please.
:lol
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Since I'm not sure people are getting the concept of "discussion forum," I will clarify: I said some stuff. Your turn now, guys.
I've never watched The Plan and, honestly, I have very little desire to.
So yeah, not much to discuss from my end. :lol
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Just started watching this a few weeks ago. A friend suggested it off-hand when talking about TV shows and then I ended up bored one day, so I was able to give it a shot. I'm on season two right now and I was absolutely blown away with the first two episodes of the series to begin with (the 90-minute ones). The effects seem top-notch, too. Really good for a show that started airing only in 2003. Can't wait to watch more when I have the time to do so.
Be careful about not looking at spoilers! I recommend NOT reading back through the thread until you are done. DON'T DO IT! But feel free to pop in and post, and we can comment without giving anything away.
Yea, I plan to do that. Your post is really the only post I have looked at in order to avoid spoilers. I really like the show right now and I'm pretty much trying to prevent anything from ruining it for me.
I really have to point out again that the effects is astounding good, even for today's standards. The production for those first two 90-minute miniseries parts must have been crazy at the time. With all the nuclear detonations and subsequent fighting that happened.
I really like the direction they are going in for the show right now. Kobol looks pretty cool and the way they've been hinting at how the tribes ended up leaving Kobol is wanting me to know more.
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Since I'm not sure people are getting the concept of "discussion forum," I will clarify: I said some stuff. Your turn now, guys.
I've never watched The Plan and, honestly, I have very little desire to.
So yeah, not much to discuss from my end. :lol
Me too. Whenever I think about getting The Plan, I realize I don't really want to see it. Sorry bosk1, no discussion from me, here.
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Add me to the list of people who haven't seen "The Plan."
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**SPOILERS** (well, duh...)
Anders . . . The giveaway was Caprica Three's apology. She had meaningful screen time with three humans, Baltar, Cottle, and Anders. She tortured Baltar, but was at that point his lover. He was also soundly shown to be human an episode or two later. Cottle there wasn't anything to apologize for. Anders, she tried to murder face-to-face.
My second time through, I'm softening a bit to this. But overall, I have to say that I still think it's wrong. What the Cylons did to Saul and Ellen Tigh on New Caprica was far, FAR worse than her ever-so-brief tussle with Anders. If she had "killed" Anders, he would resurrect, not much worse for wear. Saul was physically tortured and had an eye gouged out, not to mention being couped up in solitary. Ellen was forced to whore herself out to one of the Cavill's. And both were forced to live in fear in what amounted to a concentration camp for a couple of years. And seeing all five, she would have reacted the way she did and apologized so profoundly to Anders, while not saying a word to the Tighs? Sorry, I don't buy it.
Just read something online where Moore confirmed that it was intended to be to Ellen. Makes sense. I win.
Not so fast, we already talked about that in this thread.
When he 'confirmed' that he actually confirmed it did not originally mean Ellen. They only decided it meant Ellen long after the apology was filmed and released, a retcon on their part. That's why we still have the discussion of whether it was originally just an open ended nothing or was a direct pointer (to someone other than Ellen) they later chose to ignore. I think they meant someone specific, too emphasized for something tehy didn't have an answer for.
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Just finished season two and man, the fleet has themselves in a really shitty situation. Haven't read any spoilers for future episodes, but I wonder how they are going to deal with the Cylons showing up on New Caprica a year after electing Baltar and permanently settling the planet. Definitely an awesome series so far and the writing is great, they just really allowed themselves to have a blank slate, in terms of writing, to start season 3.
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Humanity receives 3 huge gut punches in the series. You are right in the middle of #2. Also, brace yourself for one of the best "space battles" (if not THE best) in the series.
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One of the coolest moment of the series is right around the corner for you! Enjoy!
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The New Caprica story arc is absolutely incredible.
I'm almost finished my third watch-through, still love the show just as much as the first two times. Just got the two-part finale to go!
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Humanity receives 3 huge gut punches in the series. You are right in the middle of #2. Also, brace yourself for one of the best "space battles" (if not THE best) in the series.
If the third is what I think it is, that isn't a gut punch. It's a kick in the nuts with steel toed boots.
Though that is the best battle in the series. :lol
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Thanks for the encouragement, guys! I'm even more excited to continue watching, which is bad, because I need to study for two exams between now and Friday morning. That means I'll have to wait until the weekend to continue.
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You should enjoy season 3. It really starts off with a bang. Then it takes some weird twists and turns in the middle, and you get some episodes that don't really move the ball much, with some really cool episodes mixed in. Then it ends with another huge bang. But many feel that it is a real mixed bag. The arc you are just getting introduced to is really awesome.
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There honestly isn't any stretch of episodes that I dislike. Even those few episodes in season 3 that don't really further the story do a lot of great character exploration, which is one of the biggest features of the show.
Only the finale (and The Plan) left to go on this watch through, I know my life is going to feel empty once it's over. :lol
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I don't remember, Rich--have you seen The Plan yet? If not, keep an open mind. There is a lot to like, unless you go into it with preconceived notions about what it should be about or should accomplish. It is what it is, which is simply another angle on part of the story that you are already familiar with. I would say the montage of the destruction of the colonies with the accompanying hybrid monologue along makes it worthwhile.
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Oh yeah, I saw it on my first watch through, just after it had come out.
I like it. I wouldn't say it's a necessary part of the show, but it does do a lot of nice tying together of some of the details, and I really like the way it shows one of the Simon models in more depth. He was the most under-utilised model otherwise.
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Oh yeah, I saw it on my first watch through, just after it had come out.
I like it. I wouldn't say it's a necessary part of the show, but it does do a lot of nice tying together of some of the details, and I really like the way it shows one of the Simon models in more depth. He was the most under-utilised model otherwise.
**SPOILERS**
The more I think about it, one of things I think it did best is add a lot more layering and complexity to the reactions of the different individual Cylons to humans after having extended interaction with humans. We see a bit of that in the series, but when Caprica Six and Boomer become sympathetic and call for a truce with the survivors, you don't really get to see why other Cylons sided with them. The turn feels very genuine for Caprica Six and Boomer, but it still feels a bit hollow that they would have been able to turn enough others to actually get a majority to vote for a truce. The Plan shows a lot of different Cylons having similar reactions, so to me, it retroactively adds a lot of support and depth to the changing relationship between human and Cylon that really starts to happen in mid season 2.
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SPOILERS ALERT, RESULTSMAYVARY STAY AWAY
Good points there bosky, and I agree with you. It's interesting because, although one of the Simon's had that experience, his line is generally speaking less inclined towards compassion. Same with the Dorrals and Cavils. Whereas the Sixes, Eights and Leobens seem to be more naturally caring, like it's in their design. So although individual Cylons have particular experience that allow them to break their programming (e.g. Boomer going against her line), the side that each model takes generally fits with the way they are predisposed in the first place.
And I don't think that was Boomer you're thinking of with the truce, she was the only Eight on the opposing side remember. Think that was just one of the other ones.
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***MAS ESPOILERS!!!***
Unless I'm remembering incorrectly, it defintely was Boomer. The whole reason why she initially sided with Caprica Six was because she had actually believed that she was human. Remember, after she was resurrected on Caprica, there was that mini-arc with her having dificulty readjusting because she wanted her false human life memories to be real. This fits perfectly with what we see of her character in The Plan. It was not until later, just before the Cylon rebellion, that she went over to Cavil's side and broke with the rest of her line.
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I'm considering doing a re-watch of BSG when I am caught up with The Walking Dead.
I remember loving BSG so much the first time through, so many moments of very high tension, great characters, fantastic dog fights in space, I'm genuinely jealous of those of you who are watching it all for the first time, I wish I could do an "eternal sunshine of the spotless mind", that way I could erase breaking bad and BSG from my memories and watch it all again for the first time :)
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Thanks ariich, for the personalized spoiler alert! :tup
Managed to watch episodes 1 and 2 of season 3 last night. Man, this is really setting up to be a wild ride. Galactica is just about to jump to New Caprica. It looks like the next episode is going to be action-packed!
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Oh, yeah. It's ON! Exodus is a 2-parter, and you'll probably want to watch both in one stretch, so make time. I'd love to hear your reaction to the very end of Exodus pt. II.
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Oh, yeah. It's ON! Exodus is a 2-parter, and you'll probably want to watch both in one stretch, so make time. I'd love to hear your reaction to the very end of Exodus pt. II.
I'm already looking forward to his reaction to the end of season 3. :caffeine:
***MAS ESPOILERS!!!***
Unless I'm remembering incorrectly, it defintely was Boomer. The whole reason why she initially sided with Caprica Six was because she had actually believed that she was human. Remember, after she was resurrected on Caprica, there was that mini-arc with her having dificulty readjusting because she wanted her false human life memories to be real. This fits perfectly with what we see of her character in The Plan. It was not until later, just before the Cylon rebellion, that she went over to Cavil's side and broke with the rest of her line.
MOAR SPOILS
Ah, you may be right. I haven't seen the Plan in at least a couple of years, but I'll be re-watching in the next couple of days probably. Certainly at the point of the rebellion it was another Eight, because as you say Boomer was siding with Cavil, but earlier calls for truce may well have been her.
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@Rich: https://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Downloaded
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@Rich: https://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Downloaded
Aha, I understand what you're getting at now, you meant the calls to end the violence that ultimately led to New Caprica, in which case yeah you're bang on. I was thinking of events a bit later on!
My girlfriend is getting as obsessed with the show as me, we've watched about half an hour of the finale and will be watching the remaining hour tomorrow, and she's reached that existential-crisis point already where she just doesn't want the show to end. She's not usually like that, and isn't particularly into sci-fi over any other genre, which I think goes to show what a truly fantastic show this is.
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Oh, yeah. It's ON! Exodus is a 2-parter, and you'll probably want to watch both in one stretch, so make time. I'd love to hear your reaction to the very end of Exodus pt. II.
I was going to watch the next episode, but I only had an hour to kill in between classes, so I'll take your advice and make time to watch both parts in one stretch.
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:friday: :caffeine:
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Dear God, that was awesome. Got to watch episode 3 of the third season and man, it was awesome. Was planning on catching episode 4 immediately after, but had to do something important instead. It is really interesting because the Battlestar Pegasus is gone during one of the most insane space battles ever and I'm glad they finally moved off of New Caprica. Can't wait to see where the story goes next!
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Wait...I can't figure out where you are. The battle where Pegasus is destroyed is in episode 3.04. ???
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Wait...I can't figure out where you are. The battle where Pegasus is destroyed is in episode 3.04. ???
Yea, that was a pretty incredible space battle. I've moved on and now I'm up to 3.08.
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Ah, okay. So what did you think about the end of Exodus II when they all get back to Galactica? That closing scene had to be one of the most emotional in the series (although I think the biggest emotional pinaccle of the series that will just come as a complete gut punch is still a ways off yet). You are in an interesting section. As I am sure you suspect, and I don't think this is a spoiler at all, the scars of New Caprica will remain and influence how characters cope with situations in the rest of the series. You will likely find yourself repeatedly questioning and reassessing how you feel about a lot of the characters going forward.
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It was definitely extremely emotional. It looks like Tigh was able to overcome his demons, or at least he appears to after 3.07. This makes me think those scars won't be sticking around too much longer. I'm also interested in the backstory about Valkyrie and how Adama may have potentially provoked the Cylons. They're really bringing up some interesting information in this season, so far. There's also the matter of the beacon in the Lion Nebula and the related cylon virus. A lot of stuff happening fairly quickly and I'm interested in how it continues.
I should get through a few more episodes tonight and tomorrow, since I have nothing better to do at the moment. Getting sick and no school work leads to a lot of netflix watching under the influence of medicine. :lol
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I should get through a few more episodes tonight and tomorrow, since I have nothing better to do at the moment. Getting sick and no school work leads to a lot of netflix watching under the influence of medicine. :lol
:lol
I will bite my tongue for now. The next episode (Unfinished Business) is cool. It wasn't one of my favorites, but a lot of people like it a lot. It's a nice way of temporarily tying up loose ends from the New Caprica arc and bridging that what starts in the next episode as a 3-part arc that...is pretty important. :lol If possible, watch the extended version of Unfinished Business. The extra scenes are pretty good and fill in a lot of gaps you probably don't realize are there.
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I should get through a few more episodes tonight and tomorrow, since I have nothing better to do at the moment. Getting sick and no school work leads to a lot of netflix watching under the influence of medicine. :lol
:lol
I will bite my tongue for now. The next episode (Unfinished Business) is cool. It wasn't one of my favorites, but a lot of people like it a lot. It's a nice way of temporarily tying up loose ends from the New Caprica arc and bridging that what starts in the next episode as a 3-part arc that...is pretty important. :lol If possible, watch the extended version of Unfinished Business. The extra scenes are pretty good and fill in a lot of gaps you probably don't realize are there.
I'm guessing Netflix doesn't have the extended version of 3.08, so how would I go about viewing the extended version?
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Think the only place the extended version is available would be the series box set, as far as I know anyway.
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If they don't have it, and assuming you aren't going to go out and buy the DVD set, I'm not sure.
I guess it isn't necessary to see the extended but, but there is a lot of really good backstory that is covered. And it is arranged differently as well, which IMO gives a different takeaway from the episode.
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Thanks for the heads up, but if Netflix doesn't have it, it looks like I'll have to pass on it for now.
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Yeah. They may. If it doesn't come up naturally, I would do a search specifically for that episode to see if they have it. If not, yeah, just go with the standard cut for now.
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Just finished 3.16, can't believe they killed off Kara Thrace. Holy shit.
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:'(
You're approaching the end of season 3... holy shit you've got some good stuff coming up!
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I just sat there stunned for a minute. I didn't think the writers of this show had the balls to kill off a main character like that. Damn.
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Oh man you're in for such a ride.
Watch the rest of season 3.
Now.
EDIT: By the way, I see you're watching on Netflix. Does that have the Razor TV movie that kicked off season 4?
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I should be able to watch the rest of season 3 tonight before I go out with some friends. Not having any school work to do rules. And yes, season 4 starts off with "Razor: Parts 1 & 2." That's what the first episode of the fourth season is called.
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It's a flashback movie that fleshes out some of the Pegasus arc. But don't skip it. Watch it at the beginning of season 4.
And as far as where you are now...what Ariich said: Watch the rest of season 3 NOW. I'm getting chills just thinking about Act 4 of that last episode of season 3. One of my absolute favorite moments in the entire series. BIG stuff coming up. And lots of it, too. Keep us posted... I can't wait to see your reaction.
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I'm taking your guys' advice. Just started 3.17.
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IF YOU SAW STARBUCK DIE, YOU ALREADY WATCHED 3.17! WHY IS YOUR NUMBERING WRONG?!
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Starbuck died at the end of 3.16.
Excited for Mark Sheppard's character. Always plays the best character with some questionable morals/ethics. So I bet his character in this series is like that, too.
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WHY IS YOUR NUMBERING WRONG?!
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No u.
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Oh, and some cool notes on the model ship Adama smashes at the end of that episode:
[don't worry--NOT spoilers]
Admiral Adama is shown in the middle of building his model ship after the failed assassination attempt and the division of the Fleet (Home, Part I). The ship is finally completed at the moment of Adama coming to grips with his grief of Thrace's death. In reaction, the ship that was begun during a period of great personal turmoil within Adama is destroyed in the midst of another episode of intense grief and anger.
The model ship Adama was building over the course of the series was a very expensive rental prop which Edward James Olmos destroyed in an ad-lib expression of Adama's grief over the loss of Thrace, much to the props crew's dismay. Thankfully, the ship was insured.
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I can't even begin to explain how ridiculous that was. The writers need a fucking medal for that. One of the best finales for any season that I can think of, at the moment. Wow. Can't believe what's going on right now.
:corn
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Knew you'd like it!
From here on in, you're basically going to want to watch the whole rest of the show in one go, but you'll have to restrain yourself a bit as you need to eat and sleep and stuff.
:caffeine:
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I've just started re-watching the series. So many feels on the second time round :heart
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THE FEELS
Even on my third watching I properly cried in the finale. :heart
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The finale is so emotional. I cried a lot.
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I did too.
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You talking about the season three finale or the series finale?
I did too.
:lol
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The series finale, obviously.
The season 3 finale is just fantastic though, but not in the same emotional way.
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Finished up to 4.03 last night. I really like where this season is heading. I keep wanting to watch more every time I finished an episode! :corn
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Since you seem to be using some sort of weird alternative numbering that the rest of the world uses, can you use episode names or give some context about which episode you are talking about?
I assume you are talking about The Ties That Bind. But before I give anything away, please confirm.
As far as the season 3 finale, yeah. Glad you liked it. One of the great moments in the series for sure. I think my top 3 episodes are that one, Sometimes A Great Notion, and Daybreak pt. II.
But season 4 is just so good as a whole anyway. You're going to have a blast with it. Several things you think you know are going to be challenged over and over again.
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The Ties That Bind was 4.04, which I just finished. It looks like netflix combined Razor part 1 and 2 into one episode, called 4.01. The other episodes are just numbered straight off from there.
Currently watching the beginning of 4.05, Escape Velocity. I love the multiple stories they're going through right now. Didn't expect Callie to get killed off like that. Terrible.
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Oh, okay. The official index has Razor listed as 4.0.
Callie: Yes, but did she really get killed? Remember Starbuck... "Hi, Lee!" ;)
Escape Velocity is a very dark episode. There is some really interesting subtle insight given about the nature of Head Six and the Cylons, but it is so subtle it doesn't even make sense if you haven't seen the series all the way throught, so I'll just leave it at that.
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Several things you think you know are going to be challenged over and over again.
Yep.
Don't trust anything.
Especially bosk.
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Sigged.
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:lol
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Noted. Thanks for the heads up. Might get through a few more tonight. Just finished The Road Less Traveled and the whole Cylon rebellion is another interesting storyline. I'm still trying to figure out how batshit insane Kara Thrace is, too.
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Just finished Revelations. I'm really glad of the way they wrote in the final chapter of the search for Earth. Revelations was a very well written episode, but all it did was make me think of a ton of new questions. Earth looks like something or someone destroyed everything. Like the planet is barren and decaying, from the shot they show at the end of the episode. Wow. It makes you wonder what the hell happened to the 13th colony...
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Oh, wow. You've seen A LOT. In a way, Revelations is somewhat of a misnomer for that episode given that there is a LOT more to be revealed in the very next episode. :censored
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***POSSIBLE SPOILERS BELOW***
I think it goes without saying that Sometimes A Great Notion is a very emotional episode. Everything that happens in that episode is such a huge emotional gut punch, and I think most would agree no matter where they rank this particular episode that it is one of the major emotional climaxes of the series. That being said, what do you guys think of the relevation at the end of the episode about who the last of "Five" is? Or, more specifically, what do you think about the timing of that revelation? On one hand, it is just one more cool huge event in a string of huge events and revelations in this episode. On the other hand, some could perhaps argue that it screws a bit too much with the emotional impact of everything else that is going on. What I mean by that is, after all of the bitter tragedy in that episode and seeing how everyone is trying to cope with all that emotionally, it almost evokes a feeling from the viewer along the lines of, "Whoa...this is so heavy that I don't even want to watch another episode for a few weeks. I want to just process all of this and let it sit." But then, with the revelation of Ellen, the reaction that that event evokes is: :omg: "Can't wait to see what happens next! Must watch!" Do you think the series would have been better served if they had waited just a bit more before dealing with Ellen?
I'm not criticising the writing team. Even if people agree that holding off on it might be "better," it's easy to come up with different angles years after the fact. I'm not suggesting that they dropped the ball by not thinking up something I subjectively believe could have been better. I'm more saying, "Here's a 'what-if.' What do you think about it?" So, looking at the timeline of episodes, there are another 3 full episodes between this one and the time Ellen's actually ends up being revealed in No Exit. I think maybe it would have been cool to hold off on Tigh revealing that she is the fifth. Maybe he still goes into the water at the end of Sometimes A Great Notion, and we see that he remembers something, but we don't see what it is. And then that is echoed in the next few episodes and we see it effecting him and his relationship with Caprica Six until he finally reveals it. I dunno. I just think it could have been cool to do it that way to, again, let the emotional impact of Sometimes A Great Notion ride a little more without being distracted by the issue of Ellen, and also could have provided opportunity to add some complexity to the Tigh/Six relationship that would have added more depth to when Ellen showed up.
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They certainly could have done that, and it would have been just as valid as the approach they did take, but personally I'm pretty happy with the way it worked. The thing with BSG is that it's never TOO hard and heavy - it has a huge amount of warmth and tenderness at its soul. I think that episode is such an emotional downer that to end on that same note would have just been a bit too bleak, whereas ending on an issue of intrigue keeps it balanced and makes you want more.
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Thanks for the spoiler alert, bosk. I might be getting to the first episode of season 4.5 tonight, which I guess is the first episode right after Revelations. Netflix has seasons 4 and 4.5 smashed together, so I had to go to the wikipedia in order to determine where I was in order to describe it in a way so you guys wouldn't be looking at me weird for a strange numbering sequence.
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Big reveal coming up tonight. That's all I'll say.
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Holy shit.
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The timing of the reveal that Bosk is talking about was pretty much forced by the writer's strike when season four was in production: there was a very real chance that the second half of the series, if the strike had gone on too long, would have been never produced. For a time, that episode was actually being considered a provisional series finale. So it could have been much, much WORSE. Thankfully it wasn't.
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Yea, it did seem like a lot of information about all kinds of mysteries on the show were delivered in just that one episode. So much stuff from the dead people on Earth being cylons along with strange centurions, in addition to finding Kara's viper and body. Apparently she must be death, or something. That's at least my thought on the subject. Really interesting that Earth was nuked 2,000 years ago. I wonder how that came about.
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Just finished The Oath. I'm really excited to see how this whole rebel thing develops. Very interesting.
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Oh, cool. Things are now more or less racing toward the conclusion, although it may not seem like it.
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Yea, I've been wondering how they're going to come to a conclusion in the series since I'm so close to the end. Only ~7 episodes left and still a lot to be answered.
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I think I said this before, but to remind you: Not every question will be answered. Plenty is left to your own interpretation.
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Going to finish the last 5 episodes today. Starting with "Someone To Watch Over Me." I have heard from multiple people that the ending doesn't necessarily answer all the looming questions, but can I expect some crazy shit to go down?
Also, is there any other series-related material that should be watched? I keep hearing about something called "The Plan," but I don't remember necessarily watching an episode with that name.
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Just finished up the series and wow, that was cool. What a great series!
What in the hell was Kara really?!
Also, that was a great tie-in to say that we essentially descended from the people from the 12 colonies interbreeding with the natives on the planet "Earth." That's interesting.
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Going to finish the last 5 episodes today. Starting with "Someone To Watch Over Me." I have heard from multiple people that the ending doesn't necessarily answer all the looming questions, but can I expect some crazy shit to go down?
Uh...yes! But you now know, so... :biggrin:
Also, is there any other series-related material that should be watched? I keep hearing about something called "The Plan," but I don't remember necessarily watching an episode with that name.
Yeah, there is some other cool stuff. You already watched Razor, correct? A few more things:
The Plan: This is another movie that was created after the fact. Remember toward the end of season 2 when they first discovered that Cavill was a Cylon and flushed Caprica Cavill and Galactica Cavill out of the airlock together? The Plan re-tells the story from just before the attack on the colonies up through flushing the two Cavills out of the airlock, and tells it from the perspective of the two Cavills. It is pretty interesting how it is done. Again, it is the same story, but is told from a different perspective. Basically, you get to see how the two Cavill copies developed different views toward humanity through their experiences interacting with the humans through that time period. The way it is put together is also interesting. They use a lot of existing scenes and cut those together with some new footage, so it is an interesting mix of new and old that just puts a little different spin on things. I recommend it. But just don't go into it thinking it will answer a lot of big questions. It doesn't. And it doesn't try to.
The Resistance: A web-based series bridging seasons 2 and 3. Not bad. Not "must see," but I thought it was cool.
The Face of the Enemy: A series of webisodes to bridge the gap between the two halves of Season 4, focusing on Felix Gaeta and an Eight ("Sweet Eight"). Sheds a bit of light on some things that happened on New Caprica, and adds some context for Gaeta's post-New Caprica interactions with Baltar and his motivation for his involvement in the mutiny. But all in all, the new insight these webisodes gave was unsatisfying. I honestly felt that this took away from my enjoyment rather than enhancing it.
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That's awesome. I may check some of that out. The real burning question I still have is that I'm wondering what the hell Kara actually is, besides the label, "harbringer of death," she was hit with after her "death." Fantastic series. I already recommended it to a few friends of mine.
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The real burning question I still have is that I'm wondering what the hell Kara actually is, besides the label, "harbringer of death," she was hit with after her "death."
I think what is fairly clear is that she is something akin to an angel, like Head Six and Head Baltar, sent to guide the Colonials and Cylons. Beyond that, would it actually help to know anything more specific? Personally, I don't think it would. I am kind of glad it is open to speculation. That is as it should be, IMO.
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Yea, that's true. She's called an Angel and also called a harbringer of death. So, it makes it...interesting, to say the least. Very cool, though.
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I've just started rewatching all of bsg. First time around I wasn't able to get hold of the mini series or the feature length ones, so there is still some new stuff for me on turn 2. Already watched miniseries and 33, I'm really getting into it again...
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I've been rewatching it all as well. Just finished series one, I'd totally forgotten what happened at the end of that last episode :o
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I've left it a good amount of time between watches, I can't really remember what happens in most episodes, so there are still some good little surprises!
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Definitely, I've only seen the whole thing once through anyway and tend to have a pretty bad memory for tv shows, so a lot of it is like watching it for the first time :)
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Hooray for having a head like a sieve!
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It has it's advantages sometimes ;D
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Just watched a great episode, featuring the best line of the whole show
"no more mr. nice Gaius"
I cracked up so much!
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I love that line :lol
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Gaius is such a great character, in so many ways. :lol
His is the most interesting story arc in the whole show.
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I concur. Gaius was always one of my favorite characters.
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Yeah he is just such a jammy bastard, always ends up getting away with everything!
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As I watched the series as it aired, Baltar was my least favorite character not named Starbuck. (She always rubbed me wrong, and that hasn't changed.) When I got the entire series on DVD and rewatched it, he became my favorite. His arc is just so amazing when you watch it in a row, it really works better.
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I can't stop noticing the water bottles I used to have on my bike EVERYWHERE in BSG this time round
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn2/v/1489060_10152099661904592_1310832622_o.jpg?oh=494dc5f8ea146c530416473769f4863a&oe=52BAB779&__gda__=1387977931_c86544f39e2d237a735714020998df4f)
available for a mere £4. Worrying to know that when civilsation is forced to flee into space they will kit the ship out from halfords...
https://www.halfords.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_storeId_10001_catalogId_10151_productId_385203_langId_-1_categoryId_273925
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:lol I'm gonna start noticing them now
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Currently at the "God Tigh is so weak, and Ellen is such a bitch" stage in S2
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Currently at the "God Tigh is so weak, and Ellen is such a bitch" stage in S2
Of all the character arcs, I think Tigh's is probably my favorite. I hated him so much for the first two seasons, and really came to like him a lot by the end.
I was just thinking the other day about rewatching this series.
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I have definitely found myself itching for a 4th watch of the show, but the last one was only a year or two ago. It's definitely when I'm getting to the end of another TV show, or reading some sci-fi that's clearly influenced by BSG, that I get the cravings.
And yes, Tigh is a brilliant character and a fantastic story arc. Probably my favourite too.
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So...has anyone seen this show? Is it any good? Worth watching?
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So...has anyone seen this show? Is it any good? Worth watching?
Yes, yes, yes if you are into sci fi
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:bgigrin: I may do a re-watch soon. The Pokémon Go thread reminded me of it.
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So...has anyone seen this show? Is it any good? Worth watching?
If you like dark and outright brutal. I think it's brilliant but it's definitely not for everyone. Very little levity or lightness. You also have to have an open mind about the showing having a spiritual element.
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So...has anyone seen this show? Is it any good? Worth watching?
If you like dark and outright brutal. I think it's brilliant but it's definitely not for everyone. Very little levity or lightness. You also have to have an open mind about the showing having a spiritual element.
Um...I know. :p https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=361.msg1317583#msg1317583
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
And going WAY back, this caught my attention:
Also, I have to ask, why do you think Boomer might not be a Cylon?
Legimately? No good reason whatsoever. Emotionally? They just can't do that to such a good character, so I refuse to buy into it full-on until it is just inescapable.
Watching that final scene of the miniseries wasn't inescapable enough??
Well, yeah, but keep in mind two things: (1) Try to erase everything you know about the show from your mind and pretend that the ONLY thing you have seen is the pilot. It isn't entirely clear at that point exactly what the skin jobs are. Even Six's comment to Baltar (and his note to Adama) about how many models and many copies, it still isn't entirely clear what that means. And are the models copies of actual people? At that early stage in the show, that isn't really ruled out. Coming in with a background from the original series, it could very well be that the Cylons are led by a supreme leader, and that he made the skin jobs as copies of real people to be infiltrator units. We just don't know. And if it is true, Boomer could be a real person, with the other Eights being the Cylon copies.
2. It isn't entirely clear at that stage in the show just how much they are going to deviate from the original characters. Yeah, Starbuck is a woman, and Apollo and Adama are estranged. But that still isn't such a HUGE departure from the original characters as Boomer being a Cylon. So just on an emotional level, that is a hard leap to accept.
Of course, it isn't long before we KNOW. And the answers make sense. But in the context of only having whatever knowledge the pilot revealed, other theories made sense at the time as well.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
As much as I generally hate to see people leave the forum, I am SO glad GuineaPig doesn't post anymore.
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https://www.yahoo.com/tv/battlestar-galacticas-richard-hatch-dead-234924852.html
:(
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https://www.yahoo.com/tv/battlestar-galacticas-richard-hatch-dead-234924852.html
:(
Yeah, I seen that this morning on facebook. I wasn't aware that he was ill until I seen that he had passed away. God Speed!
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RIP Donnelly Rhodes. Doc Cottle was my favorite side character in this show. The man was a great actor.
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I don't know him outside of this show (at least, not that I recall). But he was REALLY good in this role and brought a lot to the show.
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Gonna do another run through on this show since it's all on Amazon Prime. Working on the miniseries now, forgot how well done it was.
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I have wanted to. But it is such a huge undertaking that I can't seem to make it a high enough priority to dedicate that much time to it.
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I usually watch the entire series all the way through about every year to year and a half. It's probably become my favorite show of all time.
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Took advantage of a lazy day in the middle of five off to knock out S1, now I can cruise through the other three at a leisurely pace and enjoy them. It's just amazing television, and I'm right with you PowerSlave that it might be my favorite as well.
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Starting in on S4, and this series still holds up as my favorite ever.
Just watched the scene where Anders shoots Gaeta in the leg, fuck is that a cringe-worthy one man.
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Aaaand finished. The last six or seven episodes are television perfection, say from the moment the mutiny ends on. Just perfect.
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Aaaand finished. The last six or seven episodes are television perfection, say from the moment the mutiny ends on. Just perfect.
You really went through that fairly quickly. It usually takes me a month, or more.
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Yeah, work has been really slow, and I've only been getting two or so days a week, so I had tons of spare time to kill.
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Is this show worth the investment? I'm talking about the 'new' one....not the original? I've been thinking of watching it.
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Is this show worth the investment? I'm talking about the 'new' one....not the original? I've been thinking of watching it.
DO IT.
DO IT NOW.
And post in here frequently so we can all relive the wonderful journey of watching it that first time.
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I feel confident in saying it's the best television ever made, and set the standard for many shows that followed. As I said in my post above, the ending is near perfection.
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I’ve heard all I need to hear. :tup
Been looking for a good one to get into and I love Sci fi....I missed the boat on this one when it hit years ago so it’s good to get the positive feedback on the series. Thanks fellas.
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I feel confident in saying it's the best television ever made, and set the standard for many shows that followed. As I said in my post above, the ending is near perfection.
Same. The build-up of the show from the mini-series right-through to the end and the emotional and conceptual pay-offs are just amazing and I'm not sure I can see how any show could ever top it for me.
That reminds me G, if you watch it then make sure you watch the 2-part mini-series first before the main show (the first episode of the main show is called "33", but it follows pretty much directly on from the mini-series).
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Is
YES!
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I feel confident in saying it's the best television ever made, and set the standard for many shows that followed. As I said in my post above, the ending is near perfection.
Same. The build-up of the show from the mini-series right-through to the end and the emotional and conceptual pay-offs are just amazing and I'm not sure I can see how any show could ever top it for me.
That reminds me G, if you watch it then make sure you watch the 2-part mini-series first before the main show (the first episode of the main show is called "33", but it follows pretty much directly on from the mini-series).
This. And watch them in release order. That is how it is meant to be watched, and there are GOOD reasons. Don't skip episodes, don't watch them out of order, and DON'T do any Internet sleuthing or you may very likely stumble upon things you don't want to know for wherever you are in the story.
EDIT: And in case you don't know--it isn't for kids. You'll figure that out pretty quickly a few episodes in.
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I always want to do a big rewatch but I am never sure I have the time and energy to dedicate since this is not a light show to have in the background.
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Same Adami. Going back a page or two in this thread, I was talking about maybe doing a 4th watch at some point back in a 2015. Not done it yet! Maybe over the summer though as there's generally less new stuff on and I'm definitely craving it.
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Same Adami. Going back a page or two in this thread, I was talking about maybe doing a 4th watch at some point back in a 2015. Not done it yet! Maybe over the summer though as there's generally less new stuff on and I'm definitely craving it.
Yea. I'll be moving to New York in early August, but won't start work til the 19th. Maybe I can do it then.
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Thanks for the heads up on watching the mini series first fellas. I’m planning on firing this up tonight.
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:caffeine:
"Living my own life by learning from you"
:lol The miniseries is 3 hours, so you may not get past that just tonight. But I WILL be following...
Gary, did you watch the original at all back in the day? There are some nice callbacks in the miniseries, and then every so often in the episodes that follow. I won't say any more than that. But if you saw the original, you'll spot some cool things.
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Gary, did you watch the original at all back in the day? There are some nice callbacks in the miniseries, and then every so often in the episodes that follow. I won't say any more than that. But if you saw the original, you'll spot some cool things.
I did not. I was hoping that wouldn't ruin anything....only be 'cool' if you knew about it or not.
The miniseries is 3 hours, so you may not get past that just tonight.
Have you seen my posting history when it comes to watching shows :lol If I can get on this by 10-10:30 tonight there's a chance I'll just go ahead and hammer it out.
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Gary, did you watch the original at all back in the day? There are some nice callbacks in the miniseries, and then every so often in the episodes that follow. I won't say any more than that. But if you saw the original, you'll spot some cool things.
I did not. I was hoping that wouldn't ruin anything....only be 'cool' if you knew about it or not.
Yeah, that's exactly it. It isn't a continuation or anything. It's a complete reimagining of the story that, in many ways, is very different. But just come cool nuggets dropped here and there, such as the original 1980s music theme being used for a particular moment during the miniseries. Stuff like that.
The miniseries is 3 hours, so you may not get past that just tonight.
Have you seen my posting history when it comes to watching shows :lol If I can get on this by 10-10:30 tonight there's a chance I'll just go ahead and hammer it out.
It's pretty addicting, so it wouldn't surprise me to see a few marathons that go longer than you may have initially planned. :lol
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I remember having to watch the first episode of the mini series twice, I didn't connect on the first watch, gave some time and rewathed and then it connected and I went on to enjoy the whole show. It's a good one. I hardly remember anything about it though. Would be cool to rewatch, maybe one day.
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Now's the time. Let's all do it together!
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Now's the time. Let's all do it together!
You know, you might be right. Maybe now is the time.
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All Along the Watchtower just came up on my playlist, so it's a sign. The universe hath spoken.
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So say we all.
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:sosayweall:
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Boom! And the mini series is knocked out. Safe to say I’m hooked....very cool stuff and I can’t wait to dive in to the seasons.
Loved the final scene reveal of ‘who’ the Cylons were. I was curious as to if they’d picked the wrong guy......I’m still not sure where that Dr. who has the hot Cylon in his mind loyalties lie yet? In one moment he seems to want to help the humans....the next he appears to be seduced.
Anyway....I’m sure I’ll have more to talk about as I keep watching but I guess I should go to bed now...its 1:35 am :lol
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I've been trying to talk my brother into watching this show for many years, and he finally started the series a couple of weeks ago. Unfortunately, that means that he has my dvd's, so I won't be able to join you guys in a "watch party", but I'll keep my eyes on the thread and try to follow along from memory.
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Screw it, I'll do a re-watch. There's no way I'll be able to keep pace with you Gary, but following this thread and reading your thoughts will be too difficult if I'm not watching the show too! :lol
There are other things I'm watching but the summer is pretty quiet for current shows, so I'll watch BSG around those other things and should be able to make my way through it over a bit of time.
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One thing I noticed was the number of actors/actresses that I've seen in a ton of other series over the years. This cast is choc full of the 'who's who' of actors/actresses that 'you' don't know the name of but recognize immediately. :lol
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So I'm 8 episodes in to Season 1 and liking it a lot. I can tell it's starting to build a bit more. Still have no idea on why the 'hot' cylon is so fixated on God....even this past episode was the one when Starbuck interrogated a cylon and he was speaking very 'religiously'. I'm sure that's heading somewhere but it's weird to me right now.
not sure what the point of the cylon and Helo on Caprica is yet. Seems like a random storyline but I'll trust it has a point.
So, I'm just trying to plug alone....again, I like it and am certainly invested at this point.
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So I'm 8 episodes in to Season 1 and liking it a lot. I can tell it's starting to build a bit more. Still have no idea on why the 'hot' cylon is so fixated on God....even this past episode was the one when Starbuck interrogated a cylon and he was speaking very 'religiously'. I'm sure that's heading somewhere but it's weird to me right now.
not sure what the point of the cylon and Helo on Caprica is yet. Seems like a random storyline but I'll trust it has a point.
So, I'm just trying to plug alone....again, I like it and am certainly invested at this point.
The religions of the cylons and the humans play a very central role in everything that happens on the show. That will take many twists and turns throughout the course of the story, but it will drive virtually everything. That's about all I can say about that right now.
Caprica remains important for a lot of reasons, even though it is destroyed. That storyline may seem like a tangent now, but with almost every storyline in the show, it has a role to play. You will undoubtedly reach a point very soon with that storyline where your head will explode trying to figure out how what is about to happen could possibly work. :lol
Looking back, I didn't appreciate 33 and Water as much at the time as I do now looking back. But I like how the show deals with the real, practical issues of what it is presenting, like how sleep deprivation and replenishing basic resources are crucial.
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That's the beauty of BSG, the way it brings together big concepts around religion, politics and humanity, gritty exploration of practical issues about how communities behave or are affected in certain situations, and really strong personal stories. There are some shows that do/did one or two of those better than BSG but to do all three to such a high standard is I think part of why I love the show so much.
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That's the beauty of BSG, the way it brings together big concepts around religion, politics and humanity, gritty exploration of practical issues about how communities behave or are affected in certain situations, and really strong personal stories. There are some shows that do/did one or two of those better than BSG but to do all three to such a high standard is I think part of why I love the show so much.
I am appreciating that aspect.....even the last episode I watched was intriguing as Starbuck kind of 'connected' with the Cylon she was interrogating.....holding her hand to his as he was purged out of the airlock and said a prayer for him. That episode was really well done.
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All I can say Gary is buckle up, it's gonna be a ripper of a ride, and trust me when I say any notions you get of the story will be eventually crushed. This show is so fucking awesome. I just did a run last year, but may do another after I plow through Good Omens.
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Loved the first two seasons and the first 4 episodes of season 3. But after Exodus pt2 the whole show completely falls apart.
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Loved the first two seasons and the first 4 episodes of season 3. But after Exodus pt2 the whole show completely falls apart.
No.
Just....
no.
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If by "falls apart" he means "took such an unexpected series of twists to somehow become even better," then I completely agree with him.
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Loved the first two seasons and the first 4 episodes of season 3. But after Exodus pt2 the whole show completely falls apart.
No.
Just....
no.
Went from an interesting conflict between Science and Religion - do just Religion. The story fell apart for me anyway, I had very little interest in that side and things and the plot being driven by 'faith'.
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Loved the first two seasons and the first 4 episodes of season 3. But after Exodus pt2 the whole show completely falls apart.
No.
Just....
no.
Went from an interesting conflict between Science and Religion - do just Religion. The story fell apart for me anyway, I had very little interest in that side and things and the plot being driven by 'faith'.
I find it quite interesting that you interpret it that way. I don't agree at all that that's what happened.
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Yeah, I think he was watching a different show.
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Two episodes in to S2. I will say the admiral getting shot caught me way off guard. Although looking back should have totally expected it.
Really enjoying the show....I’m intrigued at where they’re taking this ‘religious’ angle they’re playing for the cylons.
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I was hoping to download to my phone and be able to watch a bunch on some upcoming travel. But it is no longer on Netflix, apparently. :(
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It's now on Amazon Prime in the UK, so have started my re-watch. :D Only a few episodes in and it'll probably take a little while as I'll always be prioritising new episodes/seasons of stuff as it airs and becomes available.
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I believe I'm on EP8 of S2....really digging the show. I'm liking the infusion of this religious/political/military and how to navigate all three.
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I find it quite interesting that you interpret it that way. I don't agree at all that that's what happened.
Fair enough. That's my own take from it. As I said it started off with an interesting mix of science vs religion - then when it came to answering all the mysteries and questions that had been thrown up it mostly ditched the science and resolved everything with religion/faith. Which from a personal point of view left me unsatisfied - I won't mention to much, firstly because my memory isn't up to it and secondly because people are watching this for the first time and I don't wish to spoil it (as they like you and many others, may love how it resolves).
So yeah for me 2 and a bit seasons were fantastic (Razor was good too), after that it fall away (somewhat like Lost).
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Through two seasons. Man, I am really liking this. I'm curious to see how Gaius and "his" #6 interact now that they're back together? That was an interesting twist to see that she was imagining Gaius when she was reborn. I'd started to think (maybe still do) that Gaius was/is a Cylon as well....and that his model was there to welcome her. But, it's interesting to see them use that same dynamic with her now. I've not watched any episodes in S3 yet so I don't know if now that they're in the same proximity that they'll be 'imagining' one another.
I am torn on Starbuck. One moment I'm digging her character and in the next I'm super annoyed. Col. Tigh is annoying to me also but not too bad. I didn't like Apollo initially but now dig him. Admiral Adama is pretty fn killer IMO.
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Adama is awesome. Tigh and Starbuck are pretty deeply flawed but have fantastic story arcs, especially Tigh in season 3 (which I won't go into any detail about of course because spoilers!).
Really glad you're digging it so much. I'm only a few episodes into my rewatch as a couple of new seasons of things have dropped or about to drop, but I think after Jessica Jones season 3 there'll be a bit of a gap to blast through some BSG.
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Tigh and Starbuck are pretty deeply flawed but have fantastic story arcs
It's weird because I like them both but then they do/say something that really irks me. Tigh trying to rig the election really ticked me off. And, give credit to the actress....but when they have Starbuck 'drunk' she is freaking annoying. The way she behaved after rescuing 'her man' in front of Apollo really boiled my blood.
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Adami is awesome.
:heart :heart :heart
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Adami is awesome.
:heart :heart :heart
Well, naturally.
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Started S3 last night after a few days off.....I really dig the vibe...only two episodes in but I love the fact that they have made Apollo overweight and 'soft' mentally. They've actually done a great job with many of the characters showing what a long, hard year can do to people....then 4 hard months under cylon control.
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Yeah the story telling and character arcs are really great around the start of season 3. Seeing how the Cylon occupation affects Tigh is really gripping as well.
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SPOILERS:
Boomer is a Cylon
:sosayweall:
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(7) episodes in to S3 and this show is freaking awesome. This might be my favorite season yet. The aftermath of the cylon occupation and the how those on the ground have been left to deal with it is really well done. Especially Col. Tigh....man, what an arc for his character.
I like how they're showing more and more of the cylon side of things as well. This is such a cool show.
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You just made it through a VERY cool, very intense stretch--one of my favorites in the entire series. The next few episodes kind of felt like treading water a bit to me. I mean, they definitely move the ball. But the focus also felt to me like it drifted a bit until things were positioned for the next big stretch of events. If you find yourself feeling the same way, just rest assured that the series is indeed building toward something very big in the not distant future.
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You just made it through a VERY cool, very intense stretch--one of my favorites in the entire series. The next few episodes kind of felt like treading water a bit to me. I mean, they definitely move the ball. But the focus also felt to me like it drifted a bit until things were positioned for the next big stretch of events. If you find yourself feeling the same way, just rest assured that the series is indeed building toward something very big in the not distant future.
I think this is one of the benefits of binge watching :lol If there are 'treading water' moments in a series it's gone in a flash because I typically watch 3-4....maybe 5 episodes at a time when I'm 'on' a series. Those moments usually don't feel like their treading water because you get through them in a jiffy.
But I agree.....these first 5 or 6 episodes of S3 have been my favorite part of the series thus far.
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One of the cool things about the series is that, even when it does feel like it is going off on tangents, it is usually doing so to bide its time and set the pieces in place for a big payoff down the road.
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(7) episodes in to S3 and this show is freaking awesome. This might be my favorite season yet. The aftermath of the cylon occupation and the how those on the ground have been left to deal with it is really well done. Especially Col. Tigh....man, what an arc for his character.
TOLD YOU. :biggrin: The moments at the start of episode four (Exodus Part 2) get to me every time.
You just made it through a VERY cool, very intense stretch--one of my favorites in the entire series. The next few episodes kind of felt like treading water a bit to me. I mean, they definitely move the ball. But the focus also felt to me like it drifted a bit until things were positioned for the next big stretch of events. If you find yourself feeling the same way, just rest assured that the series is indeed building toward something very big in the not distant future.
I think this is one of the benefits of binge watching :lol If there are 'treading water' moments in a series it's gone in a flash because I typically watch 3-4....maybe 5 episodes at a time when I'm 'on' a series. Those moments usually don't feel like their treading water because you get through them in a jiffy.
Totally. The benefit of weekly watching is having time to reflect, discuss, speculate, and in general I prefer the experience. But binge watching definitely helps with stretches that are weaker or slower (although in BSG's case it's still really good stuff, just less thrilling than the best moments).
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Gary, where are you now? We need our vicarious fix through you.
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Gary, where are you now? We need our vicarious fix through you.
Just finished Ep. 13 of S3. Haven’t been able to watch much the past couple weeks. Just been slammed with stuff. Hoping to knock out S3 while I’m off work the next few days BUT. Stranger Things S3 comes out also so that may take precedent.
A
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Done with S3. I never really bought that Starbuck was dead so her 'reveal' in the final episode was really cool but not surprising. Given that they revealed 4 of the last 5 Cylons in that episode....then she shows up....i wouldn't be surprised if she's the 5th unknown Cylon.
I really liked the trial of Gaez and how Apollo tore everyone a new A$$hole when he was called to the stand. That was really well done. I've swayed back and forth about if I liked the President or not and at the moment I'm in the camp of not really liking her. She has some good moments and some bad...but her handling of Gaez and the revenge she was seeking was disconcerting to me.
I'm just waiting for the scene where Admiral Adama apologizes to Apollo and tells him he was right all along. I can totally see that happening.
All in all this series has been pretty freaking awesome. So glad I took it on and all the enthusiasm from the posts from you guys recommending it is well warranted. Can't wait to see how they wrap this series up and where it goes.
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??? Who is Gaez?
Anyhow, the trial was probably my least favorite part of the entire series. But the reveal at the end of S3 was EPIC! Loved it! Things get really complicated going forward, but in a good way. At one point or another, you will question virtually everything you know/believe about the show. Enjoy.
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??? Who is Gaez?
Baltar.....not sure of the spelling. Gaies....Gaez....Gaius...Guy-EZ......
Like I said....I liked the trial really because of Apollo's 'speech' But I'm sure as a lawyer you were probably pulling the hair out of your head.
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Holy Smokes. 6 Episodes into final season and this is pretty crazy.
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Oh, just wait.
I have one word regarding the next episode: "Jump!" :omg: :lol
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Oh, just wait.
I have one word regarding the next episode: "Jump!" :omg: :lol
Wait....maybe I'm 7 EPs in because I just saw that....when they plugged in the Hybrid at the end. Yeah....that was a tad unexpected!! I'm still not sure why Athena gunned down the '6' who was the spokeswoman?? I know she'd been in the dreams and all that but Athena lost it there a bit.
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Gary, I'm not spoiling anything by saying that Ep. 10 ends on a mid-season cliffhanger. What I recommend you do BEFORE going on to season 4.5 is find the online webisodes for "The Face of the Enemy." There are 10 of them that average at about 4 minutes each, and they provide quite a bit of context for a particular character interaction that takes place in the early part of season 4.5. Here is a link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fROCdL3oX0I&list=PL6x36RZpIH9EE3ziV6iwiuQROC2qmuv6O But I will caution you to immediately shrink your window so you cannot see the thumbnails and titles for other videos in the right column, as some may link to spoilers. But it's a good watch before getting into 4.5.
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Gary, I'm not spoiling anything by saying that Ep. 10 ends on a mid-season cliffhanger. What I recommend you do BEFORE going on to season 4.5 is find the online webisodes for "The Face of the Enemy." There are 10 of them that average at about 4 minutes each, and they provide quite a bit of context for a particular character interaction that takes place in the early part of season 4.5. Here is a link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fROCdL3oX0I&list=PL6x36RZpIH9EE3ziV6iwiuQROC2qmuv6O But I will caution you to immediately shrink your window so you cannot see the thumbnails and titles for other videos in the right column, as some may link to spoilers. But it's a good watch before getting into 4.5.
f
cool. :tup Thanks for that hint.
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DONE!!! :metal
I mean.....where do I start? That was a pretty friggin awesome series from start to finish. S4 was just crazy. It had me ticked off at people for orchestrating a mutiny to the Series Finale episode with tears welling up...like, legit face trembling type tears.
Starbucks last conversation with Lee was incredible. There were a couple things were her arc I had a hunch on....and her vanishing into thin air was one of them. Especially, after all the 'angel' talk it became pretty obvious. And, I don't remember 'when' it was but I started thinking that she'd lead them to our earth. Anyway....that final scene with her and Lee was touching.
Admiral Adama is one of the best characters in a TV series...easily in Top 10 for me. I'm amazed with how much development his character had....and not just him. This show was incredible with developing these characters to the point of you really cared. Shoot....even when Athena gunned down Boomer I was a bit teary eyed for Boomer's story.
I'm all over the place right now....so much to process with this show. I like how they tied a lot of these 'ancient alien' type theories of the knowledge being spread across the planet by some 'superior' flight capable race of being....that was a neat touch.
I'm assuming they were hinting at the end there that the 'imaginary' Caprica 6 and Baltar were all along some sort of celestial entity's themselves....angels in their own right kind of 'working' for some omnipotent being?
Anyway....I'll probably have more to say....it's all just kind of fresh as I just watched the last (4) episodes in a row....so it's kind of like POW!!! gotta think this through a bit more :lol
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Yeah, the show is one of the best out there...and the last 5 or so episodes is pure perfection.
Someone to Watch Over Me...the one with Kara and the piano is just such a beautiful episode, I love when a show takes it's time to really delve into the emotional makeup of a character, especially in such a simplistic manner, and her performance is just brilliant.
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Yeah, the show is one of the best out there...and the last 5 or so episodes is pure perfection.
Someone to Watch Over Me...the one with Kara and the piano is just such a beautiful episode, I love when a show takes it's time to really delve into the emotional makeup of a character, especially in such a simplistic manner, and her performance is just brilliant.
That episode was incredible. I love how they built that to where ‘you’......the audience knew that was her Dad long before she did.....and you’re just like “Oh Kara...you sweet little girl.....it’s your Dad helping you out”
You’re right about the last handful of episodes. Such a great job ending a fantastic series.
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Where I had thought that Hera's importance was going to be more 'physical'....being that she was a human/cylon mix.....it didn't appear that she had any other purpose other than to provide Kara with the right inspiration to ultimately program the coordinates to 'earth'
I was/am a bit confused as to the importance of her being 'discovered' in the future? Are they suggesting that modern day humans are all her descendants only? I had thought that the indigenous population eventually mixed with the refugee population? I just can't put together where Hera being discovered is so important. To me, her importance was guiding Starbuck.
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There's quite a lot at the end that's open to interpretation. You could interpret it as there being something particularly unique about her and her blood/DNA that made her more immune to disease, and so only her descendants ended up surviving. But it doesn't have to be the case - the gene pool gets so mixed after not even that many generations that basically we're all descended from the same person/people going back a thousand years. I do think her importance is more than just guiding Starbuck though, I think it was also in demonstrating to both humans and cylons the importance of their shared genes (i.e. there end up being more hybrids, not just Hera) and it being crucial to the survival of their races.
Another point of interpretation is whether the ending means that the show is set in our distant past, which is pretty much implied. But the way I see it, the whole story is about history going in cycles - "all this has happened before and all this will happen again" - and so it doesn't matter whether it's our past, or the one before that, or our future, or the one after that.
Also regarding whether there is a god, or multiple gods, or even whether there's an intelligent god(s) at all and it's simply fate/the cycle of history that causes everything to happen.
It's one of the things I love about the ending. The character arcs are all resolved, and enough is answered to imply explanations but there's room for lots of different interpretation which feels so much more interesting and involving than trying to explain everything with a single answer.
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Been rewatching because...why not rewatch? :lol
Just finished season 3. Man, that ending! Quite a bit about the trial of Baltar is an absolute abomination. But the last 10 minutes of so of that episode with 4 of the final 5 being revealed...and the beginning of the massive dogfight, and Kara being revealed to basically imply that she could be the final Cylon...man, this is some of the best the show has to offer! :clap:
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I was a late comer to this series but loved it. I haven't revisited at all over the past year and a half though since I finished it. I may wait a bit longer to do so.
I don't know what to thing about the reboot that is happening though? I mean, you can't get better than what was done.
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In a series that knows how to effectively deliver a gut punch, and does so very well several times over the stretch of the show's run, I found another subtle one that only works on rewatch (because the viewer doesn't have the context to pick up on the significance the first time through): Dee is the one who narrates "previously on Battlestar Galactica" at the beginning of Sometimes a Great Notion. That was a nice touch.
A few few other great, notable "gut punch" moments:
-The scene early on when the advance party arrives back in the hangar bay from "earth," and Roslin and Adama just stand there, unable to even form any words, before silently walking away.
-Dee's...exit from the series at the end of the episode (yeah, it's really an emotional one).
-The one-two punch in the hangar bay in Exodus when the colonists arrive on Galactica after being liberated: (1) Kara finding out that her "daughter" is somebody else's; (2) Tigh...just...yeah. (that hangar bay really ends up being the scene of quite a few emotional moments throughout the series, doesn't it?)
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In a series that knows how to effectively deliver a gut punch, and does so very well several times over the stretch of the show's run, I found another subtle one that only works on rewatch (because the viewer doesn't have the context to pick up on the significance the first time through): Dee is the one who narrates "previously on Battlestar Galactica" at the beginning of Sometimes a Great Notion. That was a nice touch.
I've seen the show three or four times (I think four?), and never noticed that. Great spot!
The rest of those moments are great. BSG just had so many amazing moments, both big ones and subtle ones.
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This is one of the best threads ever. Thought about it again because I've been watching a YouTube reaction channel where they are going through BSG, and just finished season 3. If you like BSG and like movie/tv show reaction channels, you might like these guys:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OxZX3Jrfn7Q&list=PLECnv2eVbEoF7ozYeQBkRUAtwiCqcFbK_
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Paid 5 bucks for a month of Peacock to watch Eurovision (wanted to see Voyager), and it turns out the have all of Battlestar including the miniseries and The Plan...
Brb binge watching it all :laugh:
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Paid 5 bucks for a month of Peacock to watch Eurovision (wanted to see Voyager), and it turns out the have all of Battlestar including the miniseries and The Plan...
Brb binge watching it all :laugh:
The reboot series…..with Katie Sackhoff and all of them? Have you ever seen it before ?
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Paid 5 bucks for a month of Peacock to watch Eurovision (wanted to see Voyager), and it turns out the have all of Battlestar including the miniseries and The Plan...
Brb binge watching it all :laugh:
The reboot series…..with Katie Sackhoff and all of them? Have you ever seen it before ?
If he's including The Plan and the Miniseries, then I'd guess he's talking about the good one.
And I'd also imagine binge watching that might be a bit too intense.
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Still need to get started on the series after I got the boxset (https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=50657.msg2955860#msg2955860). Just started a rewatch of Mr. Robot, should've remembered to start this instead.
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It's the new one, seen it through 3 times already, but it's been a few years at least. Definitely in the discussion for my favorite show, and Katee as Thrace is an all time favorite character of mine.
Plus Grace Park... :hearts:
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It's the new one, seen it through 3 times already, but it's been a few years at least. Definitely in the discussion for my favorite show, and Katee as Thrace is an all time favorite character of mine.
Plus Grace Park... :hearts:
No shortage of beautiful, strong women on that show.
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Mech deep in S2.... This show gets better and better with each re-watch
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Still need to get started on the series after I got the boxset (https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=50657.msg2955860#msg2955860). Just started a rewatch of Mr. Robot, should've remembered to start this instead.
Finally started this series. Got through the 2 episodes of the mini series which also served as the Pilot I guess and I thought they were excellent. Started season 1 now and 2 episodes in and is already very captivating.
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Those first two episodes (33 and Water) really set the tone. Somewhat jealous of you getting to see them with fresh eyes.
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I'd maintain 33, even if you haven't seen the miniseries, is one of the greatest opening episodes of any series.
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Indeed, since summer break started I wanted to find something to rewatch. I just finished a rewatch of 12 Monkeys, which is probably my favorite series ever. I think BSG is my next rewatch.
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Heading into the end of S2...just love all the little nuances and foreshadowing the show has, I even caught hints of Kara's song about halfway through, never noticed that theme came up that early. And following Boomer/Sharon's arc with the knowledge of where it leads just shows how well thought out the whole series was.
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Those first two episodes (33 and Water) really set the tone. Somewhat jealous of you getting to see them with fresh eyes.
I got the sense of where the show was kinda heading with the miniseries too.
I'd maintain 33, even if you haven't seen the miniseries, is one of the greatest opening episodes of any series.
I'll have to revisit it after finishing the series, right now my favorite opening episodes are from Lost, Mr. Robot, Breaking Bad among others. I thought the mini series part 1 episode was a fanstastic opening episode too.
Indeed, since summer break started I wanted to find something to rewatch. I just finished a rewatch of 12 Monkeys, which is probably my favorite series ever. I think BSG is my next rewatch.
I have the boxset for 12 Monkeys and will be watching that next after BSG.
Sidenote, as I'm trying not to read too much about this online to avoid running into spoilers, is the 2003/2004 BSG a reboot or continuation of the original 1978 BSG? I assumed it would be a reboot. Reason I ask is the cylon that's supposed to be in the museum on the Galactica (along with other things like the Viper), looks like an older version which is maybe a tribute to the original show? Is the 1978 show the original Cylon war?
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Have you seen 12 Monkeys before?
S4 wraps things up in amazing ways, some of which just blew my mind. If you haven't seen it before, I hope you enjoy it as much as I did!
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Those first two episodes (33 and Water) really set the tone. Somewhat jealous of you getting to see them with fresh eyes.
I got the sense of where the show was kinda heading with the miniseries too.
Dude, you have NO IDEA! :corn: There are tons of twists and turns ahead. Things will go in directions you never would have imagined. And right now, you're probably in that "gotta catch 'em all" phase of thinking the show is about revealing the 12 humanoid cylon models. That will change, and the focus will be completely different.
Sidenote, as I'm trying not to read too much about this online to avoid running into spoilers, is the 2003/2004 BSG a reboot or continuation of the original 1978 BSG? I assumed it would be a reboot. Reason I ask is the cylon that's supposed to be in the museum on the Galactica (along with other things like the Viper), looks like an older version which is maybe a tribute to the original show? Is the 1978 show the original Cylon war?
It's a complete reboot. But they pay homage and offer fan service to the original series in a few places (a VERY big one is coming up soon).
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I wonder how many times they had to do re-takes because an actor said fuck instead of frak...and I wonder if the actors to this day still occasionally say frak instead of fuck.
I swear if I ever get a chance to see one of them at a panel I'll ask them. (I would've asked Katee last year but she bailed on the Con at the last minute because of a shoot)
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Getting into the real meat and potatoes of S4... I forgot how absolutely brilliant it all comes together.
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Those first two episodes (33 and Water) really set the tone. Somewhat jealous of you getting to see them with fresh eyes.
I got the sense of where the show was kinda heading with the miniseries too.
Dude, you have NO IDEA! :corn : There are tons of twists and turns ahead. Things will go in directions you never would have imagined. And right now, you're probably in that "gotta catch 'em all" phase of thinking the show is about revealing the 12 humanoid cylon models. That will change, and the focus will be completely different.
Sidenote, as I'm trying not to read too much about this online to avoid running into spoilers, is the 2003/2004 BSG a reboot or continuation of the original 1978 BSG? I assumed it would be a reboot. Reason I ask is the cylon that's supposed to be in the museum on the Galactica (along with other things like the Viper), looks like an older version which is maybe a tribute to the original show? Is the 1978 show the original Cylon war?
It's a complete reboot. But they pay homage and offer fan service to the original series in a few places (a VERY big one is coming up soon).
Meant to reply to this post earlier. I just finished season 1 and wow what an ending to the season. I'm loving all the different plotlines going on. The stories and setups are great, the video quality is a bit rough but it doesn't get in the way at all. The tech is kinda outdated and minor things here and there like VFX make it appear like a 90s drama show but like I said it's not a big deal, merely an observation.
Going to try and keep this pace going and tackle the next three seasons. Then dive into all the other extra stuff.