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Dream Theater => Dream Theater => Topic started by: Polis on January 27, 2013, 08:08:43 PM
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I think SC gets bashed so much that a lot of people undervalue this thoroughly terrific epic. While the rest of the album is admittedly shaky, ITPOE is just brilliant in memorable melodies, virtuosity, atmosphere, and epic opening/closing.
Also, part 2 is often overlooked because the beginning is quite odd and seemingly uninteresting, but the latter half just melts my mind everytime I put it on.
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Added this thread to my Index thread! :tup
And I agree, this epic is underrated...slightly. I know the instrumental movement "V. Reckoning" gets a lot of flak, but as a whole, it's okay in the context of the whole song. It's not entirely out of place or too long, like parts of "A Nightmare To Remember" or "The Dark Eternal Night" and other latter-day DT songs.
I only listen to it as a whole piece now, and clocking in at 25:12, it's an amazing epic and easily the best piece from Systematic Chaos. The opening riff is great, and the whole of "I. Prelude" is pretty great with some nice playing by everyone in the band. The 2nd and 3rd movements are probably my next favorite, and the outro is pretty good too.
I like ITPOE a lot mostly because it's so unlike their other epics of that length - it's got a different feel than ACOS and 8VM and I appreciate that.
-Marc.
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Aside from the instrumental section in Pt 2 (which I wouldn't say is actually bad, but nor do I feel it adds anything to the song that would be missed), I think it's an excellent song. I've always stuck both parts together at the end of the album so it's a whole song, rather than having it split though.
I love how Pt 2 starts off with the prominent, sly bass work from JM, with the subtle piano work, and everything else dialed back. Very underrated work there. And that huge pre-chorus is one of the most beautiful things DT has ever done. To this day, the moog reprisal of the main theme leading into the outro is still the only DT section that can consistently give me chills. JLB's vocals during that outro are some of his absolute best on recent records too. :tup :tup
It's certainly not a perfect song, but when it's good, it's absolutely amazing. It's just those few weaker sections that hold it back.
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Yeah, ITPOE is def the best song from SC. But I really enjoy pt II more because of the intro and the SICK instrumental (with polyrythms!!!) the chorus is also very good. BUT THE OUTRO CHORD!!!! It builds up so much tension and releases it with an epic climax!!!!
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I love how Pt 2 starts off with the prominent, sly bass work from JM, with the subtle piano work, and everything else dialed back. Very underrated work there.
It's certainly not a perfect song, but when it's good, it's absolutely amazing. It's just those few weaker sections that hold it back.
this
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Does the "my soul is my own I do not fight for you" part at the end of the song remind anyone else of the end of Queen's Innuendo?
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.....is the only reason to listen to SC. Period. Great song with a great feel. Not that the other songs on SC are bad....but just like BC&SL......when I listen to those two albums and then listen to ADTOE....for me at least.....ADTOE is far and away a better album of songs. SC has ITPOE, BC&SL has TCOT....each one has a single song to save the album. ADTOE has an album full of killer songs. Sorry...mini rant.....
But yeah....ITPOE is a good song.... :tup
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Wonderful song.
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Pt 2 > Pt 1 for me.
Great song, great lyrics and James' vocal delivery is awesome.
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I also listen to the two parts as a whole now. I think this is a great epic because it plays into a lot of DT's core strengths:
1. Being able to write long compositions and keep the listener interested throughout.
2. Great melodic lead work from JP (especially in the intro and outro).
3. High dynamic range, with fast-paced sections seamlessly transitioning into atmospheric bits and vice-versa.
4. Really high energy riffs with equally high energy vocals (e.g. Slaughter of the Damned).
Also, I think ITPOE1 is the best of DT's album openers in terms of the intensity the intro grabs you with.
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As I've said before, Pt. 1 and Heretic are awesome, but after that the song goes downhill, culminating in the mediocrity of The Reckoning.
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My favourite DT song. Period.
I like the modern vibe in overall. I like the lyrics, they fit the music well. Heretic is one hell of a movement, one of the highest point of DT's career with its menacing melodies and soaring pre-chorus. And that nasty chorus. Hrrrr.
I agree that The Reckoning is a bit let-down, but the solos are quite cool and the Mini-Moog melody at the end of it is awesome (OK, so I and Blob finally agree on something :lol). And the ending is truly epic.
I like the way they recycle some melodies and riffs, like the vocal melodies of Salvation mirror the first guitar solo and "Servants of the fallen".
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Pt 2 > Pt 1 for me.
Great song, great lyrics and James' vocal delivery is awesome.
this...
Pt2 is impeccable... can music really be capable of taking you through a range of emotions during its course?
ITPOE Pt2 says yes...
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Pt 2 > Pt 1 for me.
Great song, great lyrics and James' vocal delivery is awesome.
this...
Pt2 is impeccable... can music really be capable of taking you through a range of emotions during its course?
ITPOE Pt2 says yes...
:tup
I also prefer part 2.
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I also listen to the two parts as a whole now. I think this is a great epic because it plays into a lot of DT's core strengths:
1. Being able to write long compositions and keep the listener interested throughout.
2. Great melodic lead work from JP (especially in the intro and outro).
3. High dynamic range, with fast-paced sections seamlessly transitioning into atmospheric bits and vice-versa.
4. Really high energy riffs with equally high energy vocals (e.g. Slaughter of the Damned).
Also, I think ITPOE1 is the best of DT's album openers in terms of the intensity the intro grabs you with.
I completely agree with this.
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To this day, the moog reprisal of the main theme leading into the outro is still the only DT section that can consistently give me chills.
This! Every time Jordan touches the Moog, it's magic. (by "every time" I mean this and Octa)
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Always loved it, easily the best track from SC. A lot seem to have problems with certain parts of it, but I enjoy all of it. A top 10 DT track for me :tup
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Love it, there are some things on Systematic Chaos to like, but the majority is some lower class stuff. In the Presence of Enemies however is my top 3 Dream Theater song and also the first one I heard with them so yeah it's great.
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Significantly better than Octavarium IMO
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Significantly better than Octavarium IMO
Yessir.
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Significantly better than Octavarium IMO
Yessir.
Ditto
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Significantly better than Octavarium IMO
Yessir.
Ditto
I don't agree with that on the grounds of its lack of consistency, but the best parts of ITPOE are definitely as good as Octavarium. I could see someone thinking it's a bit better overall, but significantly? Nah.
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I don't agree with that on the grounds of its lack of consistency, but the best parts of ITPOE are definitely as good as Octavarium. I could see someone thinking it's a bit better overall, but significantly? Nah.
I can't speak for the others but I DO mean significantly. To me the entire intro to Octavarium is a throw away and Someone Like Him is completely out of place. The song never really gets going until Medicate. That's a significant chunk of background noise that I don't find with ITPOE. I've never found ITPOE inconsistent when listened to as one piece.
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I can't speak for the others but I DO mean significantly. To me the entire intro to Octavarium is a throw away and Someone Like Him is completely out of place. The song never really gets going until Medicate. That's a significant chunk of background noise that I don't find with ITPOE. I've never found ITPOE inconsistent when listened to as one piece.
I think I and II from 8VM is significantly better than III and I don't find SLH or Medicate (Awakening) out of place at all. I feel Full Circle is the out of place part.
I'll take 8VM over ITPOE any day, but I will say I've not listened to them (ITPOE) as a "single" track.
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I don't agree with that on the grounds of its lack of consistency, but the best parts of ITPOE are definitely as good as Octavarium. I could see someone thinking it's a bit better overall, but significantly? Nah.
I can't speak for the others but I DO mean significantly. To me the entire intro to Octavarium is a throw away and Someone Like Him is completely out of place. The song never really gets going until Medicate. That's a significant chunk of background noise that I don't find with ITPOE. I've never found ITPOE inconsistent when listened to as one piece.
I disagree. The intro is cool atmospheric buildup that establishes the theme, and Someone Like Him is beautiful with its unique chord progressions. The only part that is weaker for me is Full Circle, just because of the silly lyrics, but musically I still think it's a good section.
Now, I do think ITPOE is still great as a whole too, but Slaughter of the Damned is empty chug with basically one note being sung over the top (is that the right name of that section?), and the instrumental section is forgettable noodling as fast as possible. The rest of the song is great, but for me it just has that huge dip in the middle that holds it back from being something I can listen to easily the whole way through like I can with Octavarium.
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Good song; good album. Unfortunately, I think both parts suffer (but pt. 2 moreso) just a bit from the song being split up. The logic behind splitting it up made perfect sense at the time. But unfortunately, in retrospect, I think it hurt the song. I think the song and the album as a whole would have benefitted from them leaving ITPOE as one song and playing around with the track order. And that would be tough because ITPOE1 is a great opener, but it would just be too much having a 25 minute opener if you had the whole thing up front. And none of the other songs have a strong "album opener" type vibe. Constant Motion would probably be the best choice, I think. If it were up to me, and I had to compile an album using everything they had for Systematic Chaos, I think I would probably have the band record a short intro track to open the album, and then go right into Constant Motion, followed by Forsaken. I'd have ITPOE somewhere in the middle of the album. And then close it out with TMOLS, which is a decent closer.
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And then close it out with TMOLS, which is a decent closer.
TMOLS is generally where I stop with SC. I love that track.
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I don't agree with that on the grounds of its lack of consistency, but the best parts of ITPOE are definitely as good as Octavarium. I could see someone thinking it's a bit better overall, but significantly? Nah.
I can't speak for the others but I DO mean significantly. To me the entire intro to Octavarium is a throw away and Someone Like Him is completely out of place. The song never really gets going until Medicate. That's a significant chunk of background noise that I don't find with ITPOE. I've never found ITPOE inconsistent when listened to as one piece.
I disagree. The intro is cool atmospheric buildup that establishes the theme, and Someone Like Him is beautiful with its unique chord progressions. The only part that is weaker for me is Full Circle, just because of the silly lyrics, but musically I still think it's a good section.
Now, I do think ITPOE is still great as a whole too, but Slaughter of the Damned is empty chug with basically one note being sung over the top (is that the right name of that section?), and the instrumental section is forgettable noodling as fast as possible. The rest of the song is great, but for me it just has that huge dip in the middle that holds it back from being something I can listen to easily the whole way through like I can with Octavarium.
See, what you described with ITPOE, that's Octavarium to me. The beginning is beautiful, and SLH and Medicate are great - superb atmosphere, some gorgeous vocal melodies - and then Full Circle comes in it's like... seriously? The lyrics are pretty nonsensical and the music isn't really that good as well. The key solo is pretty boring, I'll never get why some people love it that much. Intervals is great again, the wankery manages to feel tight and works well in the song, and the climax is awesome, with the gradual increase in intensity. That would have been a high note to end it...
...but DT had to segue into one of their most boring and overrated parts. Seriously, that solo is sooooooo god-damn boring. And that doesn't have anything to do with it not being shreddy or anything, because I like slower, more paced solos a lot as well (LITS solo is probably my favourite Petrucci solo), but Octavarium's outro solo is just too long and too little variety. Nothing special, and a completely underwhelming finish.
So while I enjoy ITPOE all the way throughout, Octavarium can be a nice listen once in a while, but ultimately, a few parts hold it back from being great, or even very good.
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Good song; good album. Unfortunately, I think both parts suffer (but pt. 2 moreso) just a bit from the song being split up. The logic behind splitting it up made perfect sense at the time. But unfortunately, in retrospect, I think it hurt the song. I think the song and the album as a whole would have benefitted from them leaving ITPOE as one song and playing around with the track order. And that would be tough because ITPOE1 is a great opener, but it would just be too much having a 25 minute opener if you had the whole thing up front. And none of the other songs have a strong "album opener" type vibe. Constant Motion would probably be the best choice, I think. If it were up to me, and I had to compile an album using everything they had for Systematic Chaos, I think I would probably have the band record a short intro track to open the album, and then go right into Constant Motion, followed by Forsaken. I'd have ITPOE somewhere in the middle of the album. And then close it out with TMOLS, which is a decent closer.
If you were the producer, DT wouldn't allow you to merge the song into one because you forgot one important reason why they did it: They desperately wanted to make it like King Crimson did on "Larks' Tongues in Aspic" ;)
DT even covered the song for the BCASL special edition to show the world how much they appreciate King Crimson.
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Significantly better than Octavarium IMO
Yessir.
Ditto
ya mon
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Good song; good album. Unfortunately, I think both parts suffer (but pt. 2 moreso) just a bit from the song being split up. The logic behind splitting it up made perfect sense at the time. But unfortunately, in retrospect, I think it hurt the song. I think the song and the album as a whole would have benefitted from them leaving ITPOE as one song and playing around with the track order. And that would be tough because ITPOE1 is a great opener, but it would just be too much having a 25 minute opener if you had the whole thing up front. And none of the other songs have a strong "album opener" type vibe. Constant Motion would probably be the best choice, I think. If it were up to me, and I had to compile an album using everything they had for Systematic Chaos, I think I would probably have the band record a short intro track to open the album, and then go right into Constant Motion, followed by Forsaken. I'd have ITPOE somewhere in the middle of the album. And then close it out with TMOLS, which is a decent closer.
If you were the producer, DT wouldn't allow you to merge the song into one because you forgot one important reason why they did it: They desperately wanted to make it like King Crimson did on "Larks' Tongues in Aspic" ;)
DT even covered the song for the BCASL special edition to show the world how much they appreciate King Crimson.
I don't recall that being a reason - was it stated explicitly anywhere by any of the band members? And AFAIK, both parts of LTIA aren't meant to be ONE cohesive song, considering they continued the piece on later albums, but are more like instrumentals with a specific sound in mind.
As for ITPOE being split - they DID think it was a great way to open the album, but did not want to put the whole piece first. They also didn't want to close the album with a huge epic since they JUST did that with "Octavarium" on the previous album. And so, I believe it was MP who decided to split it because it was BOTH a great way to open AND close the album, but then stated it would be played in full in concert (and thankfully so, as it is represented whole on Chaos In Motion).
I initially liked the idea of having it split, being a (yet another) nod to Pink Floyd and their split-epic "Shine On You Crazy Diamond", which also bookended an album. It also reminded me of The Flower Kings "I Am The Sun" epic, which was also split in two to bookend an album.
-Marc.
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It's got some cool bits but....it's a little much.
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See, what you described with ITPOE, that's Octavarium to me. The beginning is beautiful, and SLH and Medicate are great - superb atmosphere, some gorgeous vocal melodies - and then Full Circle comes in it's like... seriously? The lyrics are pretty nonsensical and the music isn't really that good as well. The key solo is pretty boring, I'll never get why some people love it that much. Intervals is great again, the wankery manages to feel tight and works well in the song, and the climax is awesome, with the gradual increase in intensity. That would have been a high note to end it...
...but DT had to segue into one of their most boring and overrated parts. Seriously, that solo is sooooooo god-damn boring. And that doesn't have anything to do with it not being shreddy or anything, because I like slower, more paced solos a lot as well (LITS solo is probably my favourite Petrucci solo), but Octavarium's outro solo is just too long and too little variety. Nothing special, and a completely underwhelming finish.
So while I enjoy ITPOE all the way throughout, Octavarium can be a nice listen once in a while, but ultimately, a few parts hold it back from being great, or even very good.
I don't think we can be friends anymore, you heartless, soulless man.
:'(
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Significantly better than Octavarium IMO
Yessir.
Ditto
I don't agree with that on the grounds of its lack of consistency, but the best parts of ITPOE are definitely as good as Octavarium. I could see someone thinking it's a bit better overall, but significantly? Nah.
I don't understand any of you. 8V is wonderful, but I've never cared for ITPOE, which suffers heavily from the same problems that the rest of SC does.
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ITPOE has surely some of SC's best material, but in no way it holds a candle against other DT epics. Also, TMOLS wouldn't have worked as an album closer me thinks. I used to love that song but now I think it drags. It drags a fucking lot.
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Agree with Dark Lord. It's one of the better tracks from SC....but it is far and away the weakest of all the DT epics in my book. Still, the worst DT epic is still pretty decent.
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I don't agree with that on the grounds of its lack of consistency, but the best parts of ITPOE are definitely as good as Octavarium. I could see someone thinking it's a bit better overall, but significantly? Nah.
I can't speak for the others but I DO mean significantly. To me the entire intro to Octavarium is a throw away and Someone Like Him is completely out of place. The song never really gets going until Medicate. That's a significant chunk of background noise that I don't find with ITPOE. I've never found ITPOE inconsistent when listened to as one piece.
Are you my long lost brother? I like the intro of Octavarium, but everything else fits.
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Amazing song. I used to listen to it as a whole, but recently, I prefer it as a two parter, just because both parts are so delicious on their own. I also really like the intro to Pt. 2. It's got such a dark and creepy tone. I still prefer part 1, but I wouldn't say there's any part of 2 that's lacking in any way. It's just that Part 1 is sheer perfection.
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Has anyone else done this, yet/before?
1. Constant Motion - 6:55
2. The Dark Eternal Night - 8:54
3. The Ministry Of Lost Souls - 15:00 (wind segues into...)
4. Forsaken - 5:36
5. Repentance - 10:44
6. Prophets Of War - 6:01
7. In The Presence Of Enemies - 25:14
I used the wind at the end of TMOLS to cross-fade into the wind that opens "Forsaken", creating a seamless segue between both songs. Also, I made sure ITPOE Pt. 2's bass part started exactly 8-beats after the last note of Pt 1, which is how it was shown/heard in the Making Of Systematic Chaos DVD (shown when JP is tracking the guitar run at the end of Part 1, you can hear the bass part come in 8 beats after the run ends).
-Marc.
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Has anyone else done this, yet/before?
1. Constant Motion - 6:55
2. The Dark Eternal Night - 8:54
3. The Ministry Of Lost Souls - 15:00 (wind segues into...)
4. Forsaken - 5:36
5. Repentance - 10:44
6. Prophets Of War - 6:01
7. In The Presence Of Enemies - 25:14
I used the wind at the end of TMOLS to cross-fade into the wind that opens "Forsaken", creating a seamless segue between both songs. Also, I made sure ITPOE Pt. 2's bass part started exactly 8-beats after the last note of Pt 1, which is how it was shown/heard in the Making Of Systematic Chaos DVD (shown when JP is tracking the guitar run at the end of Part 1, you can hear the bass part come in 8 beats after the run ends).
-Marc.
Haven't, but that's very cool. I should give it a try.
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Has anyone else done this, yet/before?
1. Constant Motion - 6:55
2. The Dark Eternal Night - 8:54
3. The Ministry Of Lost Souls - 15:00 (wind segues into...)
4. Forsaken - 5:36
5. Repentance - 10:44
6. Prophets Of War - 6:01
7. In The Presence Of Enemies - 25:14
I used the wind at the end of TMOLS to cross-fade into the wind that opens "Forsaken", creating a seamless segue between both songs. Also, I made sure ITPOE Pt. 2's bass part started exactly 8-beats after the last note of Pt 1, which is how it was shown/heard in the Making Of Systematic Chaos DVD (shown when JP is tracking the guitar run at the end of Part 1, you can hear the bass part come in 8 beats after the run ends).
-Marc.
Wow I wish that was the real tracklisting.
I hate that they did a SOYCD on ITPOE because ITPOE is so much more epic and effective as one track than as bookends.
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For me it is tied between In The Presence Of Enemies and A Change Of Seasons for DT's best epic.
SDIOT is behind it (it could be cut down a little but, particularly Solitary Shell, which is the only movement that doesn't work, apart from the guitar solo - I know hot take).
I'll leave placing AVFFTTOTW in this rating.
In The Presence Of Enemies is the only effective narrative epic (as it's not cringey like TCOT, which is itself barely 20 minutes). The lyrics are good and the music is super epic, metal and proggy.
IMHO not a note is wasted in ITPOE. It's really one of DT's best works from an album that in some way doesn't quite live up to or contrast it well enough (apart from TDEN and Repentance).
I also love how ITPOE develops it's thematic material (kind of like with SDIOT), they don't just copy+paste it and it feels like they transform the themes to great effect, and in the context of the songs narrative.
I don't understand why people single out Reckoning when it is not like the instrumental section of Mpt1, TDOE or even later instrumental sections of songs like Outcry, Reckoning is just a transitional section of sound painting (and some cool tinkering from Jordan) into the finale.
On observations (though I'm not in the mood to recall all of them), I find the correlation between ITPOE and Sacrificed Sons from 8VM to be fascinating, as they contain some similar themes based off some common harmonies and patterns. That said, they are used in different ways but try to convey related emotional impacts from such uses of notes (such as the F sharp riffing, and the tritone bits).
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ITPOE is one of my favorite DT songs.
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Don't know where it would rank, but it is a top 20 song for me, maybe even a top 15. Don't think it reaches top 10 though.
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It is a top 3 song of mine.
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Has anyone else done this, yet/before?
1. Constant Motion - 6:55
2. The Dark Eternal Night - 8:54
3. The Ministry Of Lost Souls - 15:00 (wind segues into...)
4. Forsaken - 5:36
5. Repentance - 10:44
6. Prophets Of War - 6:01
7. In The Presence Of Enemies - 25:14
I used the wind at the end of TMOLS to cross-fade into the wind that opens "Forsaken", creating a seamless segue between both songs. Also, I made sure ITPOE Pt. 2's bass part started exactly 8-beats after the last note of Pt 1, which is how it was shown/heard in the Making Of Systematic Chaos DVD (shown when JP is tracking the guitar run at the end of Part 1, you can hear the bass part come in 8 beats after the run ends).
-Marc.
Not exactly, but SC is the only DT album where I did mess with the track order. I have it like this:
1. ITPOE (I didn't edit it to have the bass come in where it was originally intended; I just have pt. 1 and pt. 2 back to back)
2. Forsaken
3. Constant Motion
4. TDEN
5. Repentence (if I'm not in the mood for it, I'll just cut the album off right at the start of this one)
6. TMOLS (I still don't like it, but it works better as a closer)
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Great song. If someone who never heard Dream Theater before asked me to hear a song, this is one that I would show them.
And then Dream Theater would become their Dark Master.
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I like the song quite a bit, but there's no way it would come close to being a "first listen" song for someone who hadn't heard the band. Great song. But I don't think it is a good candidate for that.
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Probably worth referencing this thread: https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=53591.0
ITPOE ranked 5th of the 6 "mega-epics" listed -- one vote behind TCOT and a few ahead of Illumination Theory -- and WAY behind the big 3 of ACOS, SDOIT and 8VM.
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I only listen to it as a whole 25 minute epic. Made an edit back when it was released. They should not have split it, and it is a balsy 25 minute opener of the album now. I absolutely love it. It's the best epic right after A Change of Seasons.
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And that would be tough because ITPOE1 is a great opener, but it would just be too much having a 25 minute opener if you had the whole thing up front.
Ha, see, I think a 25 minute opener is brilliant and that's how I have my tracklist order when I listen to the album. It's fantastic.
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I wonder, is their epic-splitting a hommage to Pink Floyd and the way they split Shine on You Crazy Diamond on Darkside of the Moon?
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I wonder, is their epic-splitting a hommage to Pink Floyd and the way they split Shine on You Crazy Diamond on Darkside of the Moon?
Not sure if the only reason but I do remember MP made the comparison on the interviews for the album. (Also, SOYCD is on Wish You Were Here :P)
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Both SC and DT12 have questionable track orders. Re-arranged, they both become much better albums immensely.
I agree, ITPOE shouldn't have been split, and CM or TDEN should have opened the album.
However, I like the split of ITPOE if SC was a 3 track album
ITPOE 1
The Ministry of Lost Souls
ITPOE 2
Done...
Would be considered one of the band's best albums by most I think. Short by DT standards, but it's a great single LP length album.
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Part 1 :tup
Part 2 :tdwn
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I wonder, is their epic-splitting a hommage to Pink Floyd and the way they split Shine on You Crazy Diamond on Darkside of the Moon?
Not sure if the only reason but I do remember MP made the comparison on the interviews for the album. (Also, SOYCD is on Wish You Were Here :P)
I know their 'official' reason was that they couldn't decide if it should open or close the album so they chose both.
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Great song of a criminally underrated album.
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I agree with everything you said in regards to part I. It's an gem on an otherwise mediocre record. The ONLY criticism I have pertains to the lyrics. They're just OK-- subject matter is fine as far as I am concerned.
Also a killer song to see live :)
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Part 1 :tup
Part 2 :tdwn
This.
And it’s specifically the dark master section that kills it for me.
Really, almost all the lyrics on the SC album are probably the #1 reason I almost never revisit it. I mean, DT has never been a big time lyrical band for me (not since Kevin left anyway) but the music was always good enough to overlook the benign lyrics. They were there, they weren’t great, but they were usually passable.
But SC is just laughable. “Forevermore…into the night…blistering”…I mean dear god! I think I once scrawled that on my pee-Chee when I was 12 years old! Vampires? Really? Were you shooting for a spot on the Twilight Soundtrack? “Dark master”??? Nope. It was just so bad that it made The Answer Lies Within seem like Dylan by comparison.
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Well I like pt 2 more than pt 1 :corn It's the meat of the song :metal
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Yeah I know none of DT are that way inclined at all - and mostly the exact opposite - but I could never listen to Part 2 around my family ;D
" Dark Master I WILL FIGHT FOR YOU ! DARK MASTER ! NOW MY SOUL IS YOURS ! "
I know it's all a metaphor for everyone has an evil side - and REVENGE AM BAD. But yeah...
You just know all the 'tough' lyrics were cause Portnoy wanted A ALBUM WITH THE BALLS.
Both Systematic and Black Clouds are pretty bad lyrically. Which is why I call those two the treading-water albums.
Neither of them are fit to follow up Octavarium. And Dramatic Turn was a huge improvement in most regards except production.
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However, I like the split of ITPOE if SC was a 3 track album
ITPOE 1
The Ministry of Lost Souls
ITPOE 2
Done...
Would be considered one of the band's best albums by most I think. Short by DT standards, but it's a great single LP length album.
I would absolutely consider it to be DT's worst -- even below TA.
But SC is just laughable. “Forevermore…into the night…blistering”…I mean dear god!
I completely dig that line!
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What is truly laughable to me is simply quoting a lyric and saying it is "bad" with no explanation whatsoever. I see nothing bad about those lyrics. And if the best you can do is quite and then basically say "hur, hur, that's bad, amirite?" then I think it says far more about the critic than it does the lyric.
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I have always claimed that "The Reckoning" is the best section DT has ever written. Comes after a long build-up and delivers a mind-blowing instrumental
As a classical musician, I have always held prog as 2nd tier music genre, but this section is one of very rare moments which I view nearly as highly as my favorite moments in Beethoven's or Chopin's works
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However, I like the split of ITPOE if SC was a 3 track album
ITPOE 1
The Ministry of Lost Souls
ITPOE 2
Done...
Would be considered one of the band's best albums by most I think. Short by DT standards, but it's a great single LP length album.
I would absolutely consider it to be DT's worst -- even below TA.
DT would never release such a short album, and I already stated that I would have preferred the epic as one track, but I give props to the band for trying different track arrangements and essentially a different flow throughout on each album. I just think SC loses steam after TDEN and never recovers. A different track order, with ITPOE as one track, would have made SC a better album imo.
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Part 1 :tup
Part 2 :tdwn
This.
And it’s specifically the dark master section that kills it for me.
Really, almost all the lyrics on the SC album are probably the #1 reason I almost never revisit it. I mean, DT has never been a big time lyrical band for me (not since Kevin left anyway) but the music was always good enough to overlook the benign lyrics. They were there, they weren’t great, but they were usually passable.
But SC is just laughable. “Forevermore…into the night…blistering”…I mean dear god! I think I once scrawled that on my pee-Chee when I was 12 years old! Vampires? Really? Were you shooting for a spot on the Twilight Soundtrack? “Dark master”??? Nope. It was just so bad that it made The Answer Lies Within seem like Dylan by comparison.
Hello - I thought you might be interested to read Petrucci's take on the subject of his lyrics on Systematic Chaos. Not trying to change your opinion.
https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/news/general_music_news/john_petrucci_speaks_on_fans_hating_his_lyrics_in_dream_theater_this_is_the_worst_cheesiest_thing_what_is_this.html (https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/news/general_music_news/john_petrucci_speaks_on_fans_hating_his_lyrics_in_dream_theater_this_is_the_worst_cheesiest_thing_what_is_this.html)
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That thing JP said in the interview about escapism... unintentionally probably encapsulates why I think his lyrics got so inconsistent.
If you look at a song like Voices, I doubt Petrucci actually saw hallucinations while he was trying to sleep, but there's a lot of weird catholic guilt wrapped up in there which makes it compelling. Contrast with Six Degrees, which feels more documentary in nature. Not a bad documentary, but still documentary. Note how MP's lyrics are from the perspectives of the characters and JP's are not. I've never been in a mental institution with shit backed up in the toilet and not having showered for two days, but I feel the energy in TTTSTA.
Ironically people complain about SC because of the fantasy topics, but I mostly liked JP's lyrics on that record. ITPOE is about good and evil, Forsaken about seduction, and TMOLS about love and death. I think when most people complain about the lyrics on Systematic Chaos, they're really thinking about TDEN. I will not be the one to stop them on that one I'm sorry.
Someone might say "But JP always wrote goofy weird stuff, look at a song like the Killing Hand." The Killing Hand isn't *about* a weird time travel paradox. It's about guilt and the futility of trying to change what has already happened, lest you become the very thing you wished to stop.
Another example of both dynamics in play can be seen in A Nightmare to Remember. The lyrics during the heavy parts are what happened. But during the "Peaceful Sedation" section, what is happening is only implied. The section is *about* being in a liminal state of partial consciousness.
To wrap this up, consider The Count of Tuscany. I think in retrospect it's not as bad as we all thought at the time. But the lyrics are still absurd. Contrast with the part of the Lifting Shadows book where Petrucci talks about what actually happened. It's actually super interesting. Because this weird old guy's like "yes, get in my sports car with me and let's drive out to my remote castle. Oh, here's my brother they based Hannibal Lecter on but don't mind that. Now we're going to go to my creepy basement where people died in these wine barrels we still make wine with don't worry it's not weird at all." You actually feel like you just stepped into the opening of a horror movie where you watch it and wonder why the characters didn't leave while they had a chance.
Petrucci still writes good lyrics I wish he was willing to get personal more often that's where all great art comes from.
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What is truly laughable to me is simply quoting a lyric and saying it is "bad" with no explanation whatsoever. I see nothing bad about those lyrics. And if the best you can do is quite and then basically say "hur, hur, that's bad, amirite?" then I think it says far more about the critic than it does the lyric.
That came across as a bit of a personal slight. I mean, I don’t feel the need to explain how Manowar’s lyrics are laughably bad
The gods made heavy metal
And they saw that it was good
They said play it louder than hell
We promised that we would
I don’t think any more explanation beyond “that’s bad amirite?” Is necessary because even most people (not all) that listen to Manowar agree that their lyrics are pretty dumb sometimes.
I don’t see the difference between the lyrics on SC and the lyrics on the one Manowar album I own besides the fact that one of them is actually “going for the cheese” and the other was trying to be somewhat serious.
It just is what it is. But yeah, I did take it as a given.
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The gods made heavy metal
And they saw that it was good
They said play it louder than hell
We promised that we would
Why would you quote Shakespeare in this thread?
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The gods made heavy metal
And they saw that it was good
They said play it louder than hell
We promised that we would
Why would you quote Shakespeare in this thread?
No, this is Shakespeare:
"Stonehenge! Where the demons dwell
Where the banshees live and they do live well
Stonehenge! Where a man's a man
And the children dance to the Pipes of Pan"
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:rollin :rollin :rollin
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The desert isn't free with her secrets
She's a silent bird, quiet bird
I asked the Sphinx for the answer
It said, "Mums the word"
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Or this gem
Just begin again
Make the bastards eat their words
Just begin again
Like bumblebees and hummingbirds
Life is just a dream
An unconscious stream
A picture, worth five hundred words
Rise for you are cream
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(https://images.hive.blog/0x0/https://files.steempeak.com/file/steempeak/shrazi/9liPHT2r-sharingicecream.gif)
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Too bad I ate dinner a bit ago cause I could really go for a shark sandwich now.
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Too bad I ate dinner a bit ago cause I could really go for a shark sandwich now.
:rollin :rollin :rollin
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Whenever I have to take food to table 11 at work - I always go " THESE GO TO 11 " in a Nigel Tufnel voice.