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General => Political and Religious Forum (aka the echo chamber) => Topic started by: bosk1 on July 18, 2012, 11:08:59 AM

Title: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: bosk1 on July 18, 2012, 11:08:59 AM
Do we really need a P/R side chat thread?  I'm not sure.  But sometimes, people just want to post shorter, more chatty political or religion based topics that don't really have their own thread.  And people seem to like to use it, so...
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Jaffa on July 18, 2012, 03:37:32 PM
Thanks for letting me in, boss. 
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: bosk1 on July 18, 2012, 03:41:10 PM
Thanks for posting so that I know it actually works.  I was beginning to wonder if I might have screwed something up and not realized it.  :lol
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Elite on July 18, 2012, 03:41:52 PM
And you have my thanks as well! :)
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Jaffa on July 18, 2012, 03:43:39 PM
Thanks for posting so that I know it actually works.  I was beginning to wonder if I might have screwed something up and not realized it.  :lol

 :lol
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: SeRoX on July 18, 2012, 03:44:05 PM
I support the new policy. And thanks bosk1.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: lonestar on July 18, 2012, 03:48:35 PM
Damn, I only asked for access to be first. Oh well.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: bosk1 on July 18, 2012, 03:51:15 PM
Damn, I only asked for access to be first. Oh well.

:lol

Hey, can you confirm for me real quick that I didn't accidentally make you all mods without realizing it?  I seem to recall a similar debacle in the past.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Jaffa on July 18, 2012, 03:52:25 PM
Unfortunately I do not seem to have any moderator powers, no.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: rumborak on July 18, 2012, 03:52:35 PM
Back in!

rumborak
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: SeRoX on July 18, 2012, 03:55:09 PM
Unfortunately I do not seem to have any moderator powers, no.

I have remove-post power.  :lol



But just mine.  :(  :biggrin:
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Scorpion on July 18, 2012, 03:57:09 PM
Hello P/R. It smells fresh in here.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Elite on July 18, 2012, 04:02:03 PM
Nice 'n shiny!
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: bosk1 on July 18, 2012, 04:08:07 PM
:alwayswatching:
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Jaffa on July 18, 2012, 04:11:12 PM
You want me to poke you in the eyes?

Okay, sorry.  Serious face. 

Out of curiosity, on what grounds might someone be denied permission for posting here?  I understand that's your discretion, but I'm just wondering.  Is it just an issue of whether or not a member has broken the rules, or might someone be kept out because their opinions tend to irk people and their topics tend to get out of hand?
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: lonestar on July 18, 2012, 04:14:15 PM
Maybe this will help....

Quote
1st RULE: You do not talk about P/R.

2nd RULE: You DO NOT talk about P/R.

3rd RULE: If someone says "stop" or goes limp, taps out the fight is over.

4th RULE: Only two guys to a fight.

5th RULE: One fight at a time.

6th RULE: No shirts, no shoes.

7th RULE: Fights will go on as long as they have to.

8th RULE: If this is your first night at P/R, you HAVE to fight
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: bosk1 on July 18, 2012, 04:15:15 PM
You want me to poke you in the eyes?

Okay, sorry.  Serious face. 

Out of curiosity, on what grounds might someone be denied permission for posting here?  I understand that's your discretion, but I'm just wondering.  Is it just an issue of whether or not a member has broken the rules, or might someone be kept out because their opinions tend to irk people and their topics tend to get out of hand?

I'm not going to keep people out just because they have whacky views/opinions.  But if they have a posting style that, because of the way they express those views/opinions, they frequently cause trouble, they will be denied access.  There are lots of good reasons for keeping the P/R forum, but the tone of this forum has not been in line with the tone of the forusm at large, and that needs to change.  Rather than delete the P/R forum, we're just going to exercise greater control over who has and who keeps access.

EDIT:  Or what lonestar said.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Jaffa on July 18, 2012, 04:16:35 PM
Alright, thanks for clarifying.

And providing Fight Club references. 
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: lonestar on July 18, 2012, 04:18:29 PM
Just trying to be helpful. :)
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on July 18, 2012, 04:35:36 PM
Seeing posts from people who've been granted access isn't all that interesting.  It's the people who were denied access that we all want to know about.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: kirksnosehair on July 18, 2012, 04:49:53 PM
*switching to read-only mode*
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: snapple on July 18, 2012, 05:02:51 PM
Thanks for access.




Alsooooooooooo,

Not sure if this needs a new thread, but I'll start the conversation here.

Daniel Tosh's rape joke:

https://breakfastcookie.tumblr.com/post/26879625651/so-a-girl-walks-into-a-comedy-club

So that's the girls account of the story

https://www.buzzfeed.com/amyodell/comedy-club-owner-says-daniel-tosh-incident-has-be

That's the club owner's recounting of the story


I feel, if you're at a comedy club, you better be ready for anything. Especially if you interrupt a guy during his set.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Omega on July 18, 2012, 05:12:04 PM
I've a question: say someone posts something in a very polemical and confrontational/harsh tone (such as "Lol, but we all know the bible was created by a bunch of illiterate and dumb nomads and goat-herders in the Bronze Age to trick other stupid people" or perhaps "Wow. Natural Law?! What the hell does that even mean? I can't even take you seriously anymore," etc, etc) would it be appropriate to fight fire with fire, as it were, and correct or respond to such a post in a polemical manner? Should such a post be ignored? Notify the mods?

Thanks
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: bosk1 on July 18, 2012, 05:17:07 PM
I've a question: say someone posts something in a very polemical and confrontational/harsh tone (such as "Lol, but we all know the bible was created by a bunch of illiterate and dumb nomads and goat-herders in the Bronze Age to trick other stupid people" or perhaps "Wow. Natural Law?! What the hell does that even mean? I can't even take you seriously anymore," etc, etc) would it be appropriate to fight fire with fire, as it were, and correct or respond to such a post in a polemical manner? Should such a post be ignored? Notify the mods?

Thanks

Report it and do NOT respond in kind.  Because if you do, and we find that that posts warrants action, yours likely will warrant the same action if its tone or content is similar.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Adami on July 18, 2012, 05:45:26 PM
Not a fan of starting threads, but I figure I'd ask what you guys think about the bus bomb in Bulgaria?
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: eric42434224 on July 18, 2012, 05:48:44 PM

Bacon.
Boobs.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Adami on July 18, 2012, 05:49:52 PM
Not a fan of starting threads, but I figure I'd ask what you guys think about the bus bomb in Bulgaria?

The big bad bus bomb in Bulgaria that went boom?  Bloody brilliant.



Bacon.







Boobs.









Bye.

I'm glad the deaths of my countrymen is so hilarious to you. Thanks.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: snapple on July 18, 2012, 05:50:21 PM
Not a fan of starting threads, but I figure I'd ask what you guys think about the bus bomb in Bulgaria?

I haven't seen anything. Link?

edit: I found it. Any idea how Netnayahaio (can't spell his name, so just N will suffice from now on) will respond to it?
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Adami on July 18, 2012, 05:53:43 PM
Not a fan of starting threads, but I figure I'd ask what you guys think about the bus bomb in Bulgaria?

I haven't seen anything. Link?

edit: I found it. Any idea how Netnayahaio (can't spell his name, so just N will suffice from now on) will respond to it?

You can call him Bibi. And he will respond like he always does (and has already responded) with "BLAME IRAN !"

While it might be true that Iran is behind this, it wouldn't matter as he responds to everything with a statement on Iran, that's a how a fear mongering ruler works.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: eric42434224 on July 18, 2012, 05:54:30 PM
I'm glad the deaths of my countrymen is so hilarious to you. Thanks.

I would hope that you would'nt think I was actually trying to make fun of your countrymen.  Didn't know you are from Bulgaria.
Made a lighthearted comment about the alliteration.  If you are offended, I sincerely apologize.  I will edit the post.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Adami on July 18, 2012, 05:56:08 PM
I'm glad the deaths of my countrymen is so hilarious to you. Thanks.

I would hope that you would'nt think I was actually trying to make fun of your countrymen.  Didn't know you are from Bulgaria.
Made a lighthearted comment about the alliteration.  If you are offended, I sincerely apologize.  I will edit the post.

I'm not from Bulgaria, I'm from Israel. Israelis were the ones attacked. Not Bulgarians.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: bosk1 on July 18, 2012, 05:56:40 PM
I will re-enact Eric's post with emoticons:

:splodearms: :adami:

:godisgood:

:cozmo2: :cozmo2:

:flee:
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: snapple on July 18, 2012, 05:57:31 PM
Not a fan of starting threads, but I figure I'd ask what you guys think about the bus bomb in Bulgaria?

I haven't seen anything. Link?

edit: I found it. Any idea how Netnayahaio (can't spell his name, so just N will suffice from now on) will respond to it?

You can call him Bibi. And he will respond like he always does (and has already responded) with "BLAME IRAN !"

While it might be true that Iran is behind this, it wouldn't matter as he responds to everything with a statement on Iran, that's a how a fear mongering ruler works.

So, you think he probably won't counter with violence? (I seriously hope he doesn't)
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: eric42434224 on July 18, 2012, 05:58:30 PM
5 minutes in the new PR and I'm already starting trouble.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Adami on July 18, 2012, 05:59:42 PM
Not a fan of starting threads, but I figure I'd ask what you guys think about the bus bomb in Bulgaria?

I haven't seen anything. Link?

edit: I found it. Any idea how Netnayahaio (can't spell his name, so just N will suffice from now on) will respond to it?

You can call him Bibi. And he will respond like he always does (and has already responded) with "BLAME IRAN !"

While it might be true that Iran is behind this, it wouldn't matter as he responds to everything with a statement on Iran, that's a how a fear mongering ruler works.

So, you think he probably won't counter with violence? (I seriously hope he doesn't)

No, he can't really. He won't attack Iran (just like they won't attack us.....us being Israel) and he can't attack anyone else cause no one knows for sure who's behind it. I mean, he's kind of the devil so he might respond with bombing Gaza, but I hope he's not THAT retarded.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on July 18, 2012, 06:01:39 PM
I see three possibilities.  Iran did it.  Israel did it.  Somebody else did it.  I'd probably call them all equal odds.  The sticking point for me is that both Iran and Israel have too much to lose if they're found out, and the reward isn't great enough to warrant the risk.  I'd probably go with 25/25/50 in favor of unknown third party.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Adami on July 18, 2012, 06:03:02 PM
I see three possibilities.  Iran did it.  Israel did it.  Somebody else did it.  I'd probably call them all equal odds.  The sticking point for me is that both Iran and Israel have too much to lose if they're found out, and the reward isn't great enough to warrant the risk.  I'd probably go with 25/25/50 in favor of unknown third party.

Israel did not suicide bomb their own people in order to start a war with Iran.

If you think they really did then you know nothing about my country.

I also however think it's likely a 3rd party. It's so easy to get bombs these days that you don't need to be a major organization to do something like this.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on July 18, 2012, 06:07:21 PM
Was it a suicide bomber?

Setting aside the false flag option for now, would you actually trust Israel to investigate this on their own?
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Adami on July 18, 2012, 06:08:04 PM
Was it a suicide bomber?

Setting aside the false flag option for now, would you actually trust Israel to investigate this on their own?

From what I understand it was a suicide bomber. And I trust Israel to investigate this WITH the Bulgarian government.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: theseoafs on July 18, 2012, 06:10:54 PM
theseoafs checking in.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on July 18, 2012, 06:44:10 PM
Was it a suicide bomber?

Setting aside the false flag option for now, would you actually trust Israel to investigate this on their own?

From what I understand it was a suicide bomber. And I trust Israel to investigate this WITH the Bulgarian government.
I don't think I'd want them involved at all, to be honest.  They don't actually need the pretense for war, but I doubt they'd let an opportunity for one pass them by.  And there's a flip side to that, as well.  If Iran really did do it (unlikely, IMO), would anybody actually believe them if Israel produced the evidence?  It serves everybody's interest to have outsiders investigate this. 


Israel did not suicide bomb their own people in order to start a war with Iran.

If you think they really did then you know nothing about my country.
Yeah, you're right.  I don't think they'd blow up their own citizens.  They'd blow up somebody else's, but even that would require a better gain than a pretense for a war everybody already knows is coming anyway. 
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on July 20, 2012, 12:26:23 PM
Why do I get the feeling sales of metal detectors are fixing to skyrocket.  Despite the fact that dickhead used the rear door to carry his weapons in, I'd bet real money we see checkpoints at the front doors of movie theaters very shortly.  After all, if we don't do something, anything, the bad guys win. 
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: theseoafs on July 20, 2012, 12:30:29 PM
Why do I get the feeling sales of metal detectors are fixing to skyrocket.  Despite the fact that dickhead used the rear door to carry his weapons in, I'd bet real money we see checkpoints at the front doors of movie theaters very shortly.  After all, if we don't do something, anything, the bad guys win.

I was confused about that, actually.  I don't think I've ever been to a movie theater where you could actually get in through a rear door.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on July 20, 2012, 12:32:30 PM
When we were sneaking into R rated movies (30 years ago), they weren't locked, but couldn't be opened from the outside.  Regardless, they said he kicked this door open. 
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Super Dude on July 20, 2012, 06:31:27 PM
Another brick in the wall of reasons to completely disarm the American public. It just ain't worth it.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on July 20, 2012, 07:22:25 PM
Another brick in the wall of reasons to completely disarm the American public. It just ain't worth it.
I can assure you that somebody interested in slaughtering a theater full of Batman fans could do just as devastating a job without guns.  After giving it two minutes worth of consideration, I've brainstormed a couple of ideas that would have far surpassed what numbnuts did last night, and I'm not even a homicidal maniac. 
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: antigoon on July 20, 2012, 08:35:37 PM
Yeah, I really don't think an outright ban is the answer.


Also, the Constitution, y'know?
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Super Dude on July 20, 2012, 09:53:36 PM
What reason do we have to allow an armed population?
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: theseoafs on July 20, 2012, 09:55:14 PM
What reason do we have to allow an armed population?

So people can pull their guns on the people who are using their guns.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Super Dude on July 20, 2012, 10:44:10 PM
Those people wouldn't have guns if we disarmed them. There wouldn't be anyone with guns to pull guns out on.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: theseoafs on July 20, 2012, 10:51:47 PM
Those people wouldn't have guns if we disarmed them. There wouldn't be anyone with guns to pull guns out on.

Yeah, I was being facetious.  I'm on your side.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Super Dude on July 20, 2012, 10:52:42 PM
Alright, gotcha, sorry. But hey, don't laugh, I've had people use that justification to me before, and this time will certainly be no exception.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on July 20, 2012, 11:08:18 PM
SD:  Here's an interesting notion.  If every person in America were given a .38 wheel gun and instruction in it's use, do you think the number of unlawful homicides would go up or down? 
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: hefdaddy42 on July 21, 2012, 04:51:21 AM
Those people wouldn't have guns if we disarmed them. There wouldn't be anyone with guns to pull guns out on.
Look, I'm not a gun nut, but this simply isn't true.  If we made guns illegal, it wouldn't mean that the criminals and psycopaths could no longer get guns.  It would just mean that law-abiding citizens couldn't get guns.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Super Dude on July 21, 2012, 06:01:30 AM
SD:  Here's an interesting notion.  If every person in America were given a .38 wheel gun and instruction in it's use, do you think the number of unlawful homicides would go up or down?

Perhaps the number of unlawful homicides would go down, but the only result in turn would be absolute chaos.

Japan has been disarmed for over 500 years and they're not doing too bad with that policy.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on July 21, 2012, 09:49:12 AM
SD:  Here's an interesting notion.  If every person in America were given a .38 wheel gun and instruction in it's use, do you think the number of unlawful homicides would go up or down?

Perhaps the number of unlawful homicides would go down, but the only result in turn would be absolute chaos.

Japan has been disarmed for over 500 years and they're not doing too bad with that policy.
Why chaos?  Would you start running amok with yours?
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Super Dude on July 21, 2012, 09:52:11 AM
No, I imagine I'd end up getting shot by those that would. Personally I think civilians who choose to own and use guns are crazy, but hey, that's just me.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on July 21, 2012, 10:45:30 AM
How many of those people do you think would do something naughty with their weapon just because they were given one?  You're acting as if there are all of these people just itching to run around shooting each other, but don't because they don't have easy enough access to a gun.  The truth is, the law abiding won't use it for anything other than self defense, and the criminal element won't do anything they wouldn't already do one way or the other. 

As for you, you'll say "I don't even want that thing in my house!", put it in a locked box in your closet, and pretend it isn't there.  However, it will be there.  In the very unlikely event that some maniac starts breaking down your door shouting "I'm coming inside to murder you!", you'll be able to defend yourself, or at the very least fire off a warning shot.

The only overall net effect will be a massive increase in deterrence to commit a violent crime. 
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Sigz on July 21, 2012, 11:11:56 AM
The only overall net effect will be a massive increase in deterrence to commit a violent crime. 

Premeditated crime would down - no one's gonna want to rip off a 7-11 at gunpoint or try to mug someone in an alley when everybody else is packing. But there's plenty of crimes that aren't premeditated, and if everyone's armed they're only going to escalate in violence.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Super Dude on July 21, 2012, 11:13:01 AM
How many of those people do you think would do something naughty with their weapon just because they were given one?  You're acting as if there are all of these people just itching to run around shooting each other, but don't because they don't have easy enough access to a gun.  The truth is, the law abiding won't use it for anything other than self defense, and the criminal element won't do anything they wouldn't already do one way or the other. 

As for you, you'll say "I don't even want that thing in my house!", put it in a locked box in your closet, and pretend it isn't there.  However, it will be there.  In the very unlikely event that some maniac starts breaking down your door shouting "I'm coming inside to murder you!", you'll be able to defend yourself, or at the very least fire off a warning shot.

The only overall net effect will be a massive increase in deterrence to commit a violent crime. 

PraXis is ready, willing, and fairly eager to shoot anyone who comes near his property, whether they deserve the lead or not - he's said so at least a dozen times himself, and there are others who can attest to that as well. That's a very different situation than someone coming into your house and saying they'll murder you. Or someone could shoot another person in their house and claim post-mortem that they broke in and came with malicious intent. And then the only word you have going for you is the guy who did the killing.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on July 21, 2012, 11:43:19 AM
How many of those people do you think would do something naughty with their weapon just because they were given one?  You're acting as if there are all of these people just itching to run around shooting each other, but don't because they don't have easy enough access to a gun.  The truth is, the law abiding won't use it for anything other than self defense, and the criminal element won't do anything they wouldn't already do one way or the other. 

As for you, you'll say "I don't even want that thing in my house!", put it in a locked box in your closet, and pretend it isn't there.  However, it will be there.  In the very unlikely event that some maniac starts breaking down your door shouting "I'm coming inside to murder you!", you'll be able to defend yourself, or at the very least fire off a warning shot.

The only overall net effect will be a massive increase in deterrence to commit a violent crime. 

PraXis is ready, willing, and fairly eager to shoot anyone who comes near his property, whether they deserve the lead or not - he's said so at least a dozen times himself, and there are others who can attest to that as well. That's a very different situation than someone coming into your house and saying they'll murder you. Or someone could shoot another person in their house and claim post-mortem that they broke in and came with malicious intent. And then the only word you have going for you is the guy who did the killing.
Yeah, let's not use Praxis as a reference point.   :facepalm:

As for your second point, that's equally applicable with a chef's knife, or in my case, Mr. Maglite over there.  I can assure you that if I ever have to swing that thing at somebody, theirs a subdural hematoma coming that'll be just as life threatening as a few 9mm holes.  But again, the issue is with the actors, not the weapons, and certainly not the availability of the weapons.  Furthermore, I still maintain that if the likelihood of everybody being armed jumped up, the necessity for somebody to exercise self defense would decrease.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: rumborak on July 21, 2012, 03:50:12 PM
I think the fact that nobody in the theater returned fire, despite almost certainly some people wearing guns, shows that the deterrent doesn't really work. If you gave everybody a gun all you get is more crazy people having one and using them.
Also, the difference between a Maglite and a gun is that you, at best, would kill one person before somebody would intervene. You can simply run away from a Maglite.

The problem is that guns quickly enable somebody to commit mass murder. Much more readily than it enables somebody to defend himself with it.

Also, those people like Holmes aren't deterred by other people's guns, as is clearly evident (since he must have expected some people to have guns in the theater). He wanted to go out in a blaze, I assume he was actually planning to die during the shooting. As his booby-trapped apartment testifies too. The only way to keep a person like Holmes from doing what he did is to keep him from having the means.

rumborak
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on July 21, 2012, 04:19:08 PM
Armed victims is not a deterrent to a suicidal person, as I suspect this guy was at the time of his freakout.  I'm also not sure if any of the movie-goers were armed.  It's generally up to the venue to determine if they allow weapons inside or not, and the people who tend to legally carry also tend to abide by those rules.  Colorado is a pretty gun-friendly state, but it wouldn't surprise me a bit if there were no armed citizens in that theater other than the bad guy.

But while it won't serve as a deterrent to a suicidal man, it might well stop the incident before it becomes worse.

Here's a pretty straight forward question.  He shot 70 people before going out side to wait for Johnny's arrival.  Wouldn't you prefer that somebody in that theater had shot him after two?
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Super Dude on July 21, 2012, 04:43:35 PM
He also had a kevlar vest on. Just sayin'.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: rumborak on July 21, 2012, 06:01:41 PM
Here's a pretty straight forward question.  He shot 70 people before going out side to wait for Johnny's arrival.  Wouldn't you prefer that somebody in that theater had shot him after two?

Of course. But the point is, given the gun density necessary to make that a likely event, is it not more likely that you facilitated more loonies to commit such a thing than deterred the existing ones from committing it?

Besides, in a situation like that, sending twice (or more) the amount of bullets flying through the air doesn't strike me as surefire way of preventing deaths.

But here's a totally different angle: If defense+deterrent is the aim of massive gun ownership, why do those guns need to be lethal? What about rubber bullets? I personally would probably have no issues with a lot of people having a rubber bullet gun at home for defense. And lo and behold, probably nobody will steal your gun from your home either. And I would think that somebody like Holmes might think twice if there's a good chance he simply be incapacitated and spend the rest of his life picking up soap in a prison.

EDIT: Just found this on Wikipedia:
Quote
In Russia, a variety of handguns are carried with specially weakened construction and barrel with internal lugs, making use of full-power loads and/or firing hard projectiles impossible, while rubber bullets just compress when passing the lug and so may be fired.

rumborak
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on July 21, 2012, 06:30:33 PM
At this point, do you (anybody) really think it's possible to disarm America?  The only thing you guys are suggesting is to disarm the good guys in the hopes of making it slightly more inconvenient on the bad guys.

As for the outcome the other night, I don't see much likelihood of the situation actually being worse.  He took several minutes to shoot all those people.  If nothing else, it would have been an improvement if he had to spend half of one of those minutes trying to defend himself.  Also keep in mind, you wouldn't object if a cop, or even some rent-a-cop had gone in there and started shooting back, would you?  It's a hard thing to quantify, but I'd put an educated citizen on the same level as your average cop in a panic situation like that. As is always the case, some people do better than others in a crisis, and being a cop doesn't necessarily make you one of the better ones.  How many of those people you think had military training?  Would you mind if they had been packing?

As for rubber bullets, what we've seen with asshole cops and their damn tazers is that if you give somebody a less lethal option, they're much more likely to use it.  Contrary to SD's concerns, if you give everybody a real gun that actually destroys what it's fired at, nobody's going to run around shooting each other.  You give them rubber bullets and you'll see people resorting to violence much quicker.  It'd take less than a week before somebody got maimed over an otherwise benign road rage incident. 

edit: it's also worth mentioning that there might well have been armed citizens in that theater who made the decision to flee rather than intervene.  A responsible person will make that decision based on the totality of the circumstances.  Not everybody who carries wants to automatically adopt the Paul Kersey approach.  I wouldn't fault anybody in there if they decided that shooting back wasn't the best move under the circumstances. 
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: rumborak on July 21, 2012, 06:36:23 PM
What's the conclusion then? Incidents like these are collateral damage of a society free to arm itself to the brim?

Which is incidentally my stance at this point. It's of course a sad incident, but the US society as a whole doesn't care enough to do something about it.

rumborak
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on July 21, 2012, 07:07:01 PM
Wrong.  Incidents like these are the collateral damage of a free society. Period. 

If they never happened in other places with strict gun control laws, I might see your point.  Yet they do.  Frequently, in fact.  Sometimes with guns obtained illegally, and sometimes with other weapons.  Over the years, some people have been able to amass quite a body count using blade weapons.  Locking doors and starting fires/explosions is also an old standby.   
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: rumborak on July 21, 2012, 09:08:52 PM
This might be news bias, but I certainly have the impression that the US stands out in terms of amok runs.

rumborak
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: snapple on July 21, 2012, 10:33:38 PM
I'm 100% with Barto. If someone wants to kill people, they will find a way. Whether it be guns, fires, cutlery or bludgeoning. I have a metal bat underneath my bed in case some breaks in. We're in an upstairs apartment, so there is only one door in. Mrs. snapple and I already have a plan in place if we get broken into.

A.) I grab the bat and hide behind the wall in case the asshole breaking in gets nearby and I can whack the shit out of him
B.) She calls the cops before the whacking starts

The idea of "disarming America" is unrealistic at best. I'm just upset that this has to be discussed every single time something like this happens. It's a tragedy that people are dead, and we have to talk about stripping rights away from the U.S. citizens?
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: rumborak on July 21, 2012, 10:45:49 PM
I think a lot of people have problems just shrugging off the constant stream of dead people caused by a very questionable part of the Constitution.

rumborak
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on July 21, 2012, 11:25:55 PM
I think a lot of people have problems just shrugging off the constant stream of dead people caused by a very questionable part of the Constitution.

rumborak
That's asinine.  Nobody who really wanted to murder somebody was ever stopped because he couldn't buy a gun, nor has a gun ever made an otherwise good person commit a murder.

And while the US does stand out with 14 of the top 50 spree killers (by body count), we're only just above the EU, which is comparable in size and population and practices very strict gun control.  There's 7 just in the UK and Germany.

Interesting tidbit: among the various weapons used in the to 50 spree killings are: various knives, axes, a katana, shovel, chisel, hatchet, mace, lance, flamethrower (homemade), club, a bus, hammer, and molotovs. 
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Jaffa on July 21, 2012, 11:50:06 PM
I know it's already been stated, so I apologize for beating a dead horse, but I feel it's something that warrants repeating: if you outlaw guns, only outlaws will have guns.  Do you really think people who are okay with murdering other people in the first place are going to have a moral problem with illegally owning a weapon?

Now, if I had the option of going back in time to prevent the invention of the gun, I would probably do that.  And if there was a way to seize literally every gun on the planet and prevent the production of any new ones, I might support that.  But at this point, to fight crime rates by taking guns away from law-abiding citizens (because those are the only people affected by gun control laws - citizens who actually abide by laws), it just seems... pointless at best, counterproductive at worst. 
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: hefdaddy42 on July 22, 2012, 05:02:59 AM
Exactly.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: snapple on July 22, 2012, 06:58:11 AM
I know it's already been stated, so I apologize for beating a dead horse, but I feel it's something that warrants repeating: if you outlaw guns, only outlaws will have guns.  Do you really think people who are okay with murdering other people in the first place are going to have a moral problem with illegally owning a weapon?

Now, if I had the option of going back in time to prevent the invention of the gun, I would probably do that.  And if there was a way to seize literally every gun on the planet and prevent the production of any new ones, I might support that.  But at this point, to fight crime rates by taking guns away from law-abiding citizens (because those are the only people affected by gun control laws - citizens who actually abide by laws), it just seems... pointless at best, counterproductive at worst.

:clap:

though, i believe this latest nut actually obtained his guns legally.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Super Dude on July 22, 2012, 09:56:00 AM
I think a lot of people have problems just shrugging off the constant stream of dead people caused by a very questionable part of the Constitution.

rumborak

Yeah I'm with you on this one. If their gun restrictions are actually made of common sense, I'm skipping over to Canada first chance I get.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on July 22, 2012, 11:18:26 AM
I think a lot of people have problems just shrugging off the constant stream of dead people caused by a very questionable part of the Constitution.

rumborak

Yeah I'm with you on this one. If their gun restrictions are actually made of common sense, I'm skipping over to Canada first chance I get.
I'd certainly recommend that you do that.  Not because of any gun laws or likelihood of being shot, which is ridiculous and completely irrational, but because it's just a cooler place to be.

Canada has pretty tight regulations, but massive gun ownership nevertheless.  They've had one major freakout in the last 25 years.  You guys keep pointing to guns as the reason people kill each other.  There are far too many other considerations that y'all are ignoring.  I can point to countless cultural considerations that probably factor more into it than availability of guns.  This is supported by the fact that we also rank very high in assaults, burglaries, car thefts, rape, etc. 
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on July 22, 2012, 04:22:25 PM
Back to the other recent mass murder, doesn't Hezbollah take credit for their attacks?  They're denying involvement in the Bulgaria bombings, claiming that tourists weren't good targets for their grievances.  I'm no expert, but aren't they upfront about what they blow up?
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: rumborak on July 22, 2012, 05:15:22 PM
Btw, I am by no means saying guns make people kill others. I am saying guns multiply the damage a deranged person can achieve. In a country where a lot of people with mental illnesses remain untreated because of lack of healthcare, that is a serious concern.

rumborak
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on July 22, 2012, 05:45:40 PM
Btw, I am by no means saying guns make people kill others. I am saying guns multiply the damage a deranged person can achieve.

rumborak
Or stop them half way when their drum magazine jams up.  Who's to say how much more damage that Joker dickwad could have done if he'd decided to use fire or explosives, which is what maniacs without guns would go for.  I'd be a fool to say that guns don't make it somewhat easier to kill a bunch of people than, say, a baseball bat, but they're also nowhere near as devastating as other improvised means can be.  Frankly, I'd say the reason he only hurt 70 people, and not 300 was a failure of imagination on his part. 
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: rumborak on July 22, 2012, 05:50:13 PM
It's a game of probability. Everybody can operate a gun, but not every lunatic can build himself an incendiary device. The further you push up the effort to kill people the less likely they become.

rumborak
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Adami on July 22, 2012, 06:15:16 PM
Back to the other recent mass murder, doesn't Hezbollah take credit for their attacks?  They're denying involvement in the Bulgaria bombings, claiming that tourists weren't good targets for their grievances.  I'm no expert, but aren't they upfront about what they blow up?

Generally, but like most Arab militant groups, they calmed the hell down once they took real power. Right now they are essentially the Lebanese government, for all intents and purposes. So for a militant group to take responsibility for an attack is no big deal. But for a governing body to take responsibility for one of those attacks can be construed as a reason to attack that country. So IF Hezbollah was responsible, and I'm not convinced they were, then they'd risk a war with Israel and whatever other country wants to join in.

Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on July 22, 2012, 09:49:11 PM
Back to the other recent mass murder, doesn't Hezbollah take credit for their attacks?  They're denying involvement in the Bulgaria bombings, claiming that tourists weren't good targets for their grievances.  I'm no expert, but aren't they upfront about what they blow up?

Generally, but like most Arab militant groups, they calmed the hell down once they took real power. Right now they are essentially the Lebanese government, for all intents and purposes. So for a militant group to take responsibility for an attack is no big deal. But for a governing body to take responsibility for one of those attacks can be construed as a reason to attack that country. So IF Hezbollah was responsible, and I'm not convinced they were, then they'd risk a war with Israel and whatever other country wants to join in.
Very informative.   :tup

That actually suggests to me that they're quite aware they have much more to lose by dicking around with Israel.  If they're not going to tell people why they did it, then it seems to me to be little more than a random act of belligerence, that gains nothing and risks much.  Makes no sense whatsoever for the group you just described. 
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Adami on July 22, 2012, 09:54:15 PM
Right now groups like Hamas, and Hezbollah can accomplish more by secretly arming other tinier groups to do their dirty work for them. That way they can fight a country and not let the country fight back.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Adami on July 22, 2012, 11:25:00 PM
https://news.yahoo.com/officials-egypt-allowing-palestinians-enter-without-permits-visas-022152365.html


I truly applaud Egypt for this. It's about damn time someone tries to help the Gazans.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on July 25, 2012, 12:19:40 PM
Christ.  This doesn't seem helpful, at all.

https://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2012/05/total-war-islam/?pid=1195
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: snapple on July 26, 2012, 05:23:50 PM
It's a game of probability. Everybody can operate a gun, but not every lunatic can build himself an incendiary device. The further you push up the effort to kill people the less likely they become.

rumborak

Well, building a bomb isn't hard. It's getting what you need that "can" become difficult.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: GuineaPig on July 26, 2012, 09:37:10 PM
Heh.  Boris Johnson has been really going off against Romney.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: XJDenton on July 27, 2012, 03:48:36 AM
Lol, romney.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: rumborak on July 27, 2012, 08:00:23 AM
Way to stick his foot in his mouth. While he certainly is a smart guy, I have strong doubts about his knowledge of foreign cultures. He strikes me as one of those people who think everybody wants to be American, they just don't know it yet.

rumborak
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: GuineaPig on July 27, 2012, 08:23:48 AM
Heh heh.  Romneyshambles.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Super Dude on July 27, 2012, 12:04:47 PM
Way to stick his foot in his mouth. While he certainly is a smart guy, I have strong doubts about his knowledge of foreign cultures. He strikes me as one of those people who think everybody wants to be American, they just don't know it yet.

rumborak

He probably is one of those guys.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: XJDenton on July 27, 2012, 01:55:27 PM
https://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/07/26/florida-man-kills-door-to-door-salesman-i%E2%80%99ll-kill-anybody-that-steps-on-my-property/#.UBIHQtV334E.reddit

Hmmm.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: rumborak on July 27, 2012, 02:20:39 PM
W.T.F.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: yeshaberto on July 27, 2012, 02:24:14 PM
that is crazy!
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: rumborak on July 27, 2012, 02:38:38 PM
So, the guy ends up almost shooting a meter woman several years ago, and he still has a valid firearms permit? Awesome.

rumborak
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on July 27, 2012, 05:26:43 PM
Charging him with 2nd degree homicide is a stretch, but OK until you prove otherwise.  However, the coup de grace should automatically raise it to a capital crime.  There's nothing in any book that says you get to finish somebody off.  Ever.  Once the "threat" is neutralized, your ability to use force ends.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: rumborak on July 27, 2012, 05:31:08 PM
EB, what is there to even rationalize about this? The guy was a lunatic with an armament who executed an innocent person. It's almost irrelevant what you charge him with.
And I just can't help but wonder if we're ever gonna see the word "Praxis" in the news.

rumborak
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on July 27, 2012, 05:36:17 PM
There's always room for rationalization.  I agree with you about the guy, and I'm glad he'll be going away forever, but that doesn't mean there aren't interesting aspects about what went down.

As for his possessing a CCW permit, he was acquitted by a jury over the meter reader charge.  In retrospect, I blame them for this.  A conviction would have prevented him from, at the very least, being able to CCW.  The investigators and the prosecutor knew he was nuts, but couldn't do anything about it without that conviction. 
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: theseoafs on July 27, 2012, 05:36:54 PM
Chill, guys. It was in self-defense.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: rumborak on July 27, 2012, 05:50:26 PM
As for his possessing a CCW permit, he was acquitted by a jury over the meter reader charge.  In retrospect, I blame them for this.  A conviction would have prevented him from, at the very least, being able to CCW.  The investigators and the prosecutor knew he was nuts, but couldn't do anything about it without that conviction.

That's what I'm hoping will actually come out of this. If you want a gun, so be it, get a license. But, the license should operate under the implicit assumption of impeccable and steadfast character. If you show that you're not, there goes your license. And maybe random house searches should be considered for people who have shown themselves to be unstable and lean towards gun protection.

rumborak
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Scheavo on July 27, 2012, 06:35:23 PM
Quote
And maybe random house searches should be considered for people who have shown themselves to be unstable and lean towards gun protection.

Well you completely lose me there. The problem with this, amongst many other things, is that you can't reasonably expect the search to be purely for guns.

Seems me to me we could have basic psychology tests given to people who apply for a permit/license. If any red flags come up, require them to talk with a psychologist to determine if the person is safe enough to own a gun. By and large, all this would mean is that people have to do a quick 10 minute, multiple answer test. I'm sure a few wackjobs would be able to slip through, but I can't imagine it having no effect at all.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: rumborak on July 27, 2012, 06:49:40 PM
Maybe it's my European background, but in my opinion there's something amiss if you have a guy who's raised a gun to a meter maid, is known by everybody as the crazy guy, but doesn't get checked on.

rumborak
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on July 27, 2012, 06:56:38 PM
I believe Rumbo is suggesting permitting for all gun ownership, though.  That's never gonna happen.  I'd be forced to agree that the qualification for buying a gun is a little to lax, I just went through the whole 5 minute process myslef, but I'm not sure what more can be done here. 

I do know that the ATF has data on all gun purchases.  I don't know how well organized they are, but I suppose that there could be a mechanism where red flags cause them to look and see if you own registered weapons.  It'd be far from fool-proof, but in the rare event that a law-abiding gun owner goes off his nut, like this asshole, then it might help. 


Maybe it's my European background, but in my opinion there's something amiss if you have a guy who's raised a gun to a meter maid, is known by everybody as the crazy guy, but doesn't get checked on.

rumborak
Truth be told, I'm not entirely sure he was crazy enough to warrant suspicion.  The meter reader incident can't be held against him once he's acquitted.  Right or wrong, that's a freebee.  As for his mental faculties, the word of neighbors doesn't really count a whole lot in my book.  A few of my neighbors probably think I'm a little off kilter.  He's a jackass and horribly misguided, but he might not be nutzo. 
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Scheavo on July 27, 2012, 07:02:00 PM
Maybe it's my European background, but in my opinion there's something amiss if you have a guy who's raised a gun to a meter maid, is known by everybody as the crazy guy, but doesn't get checked on.

rumborak

Getting checked on isn't the same as having a random house search. Like EB would say, there's a price that comes with a free society. There comes a point when the solutions to a problem become worse than the actual problem.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: rumborak on July 27, 2012, 07:09:19 PM
I see American society far away from this bogeyman that gets called in every time.
People also horrendously underestimate the detrimental effect to society events like this one and the Aurora one have. Living in constant fear of your surroundings is a price that never gets factored into these discussions.

rumborak
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Super Dude on July 27, 2012, 07:18:26 PM
I'm with rumby. I had an experience recently that had me thinking about how paranoid my cultural zeitgeist has made me, and it really made me realize how poisonous American society as a whole is. If this is what freedom is supposed to be, I won't have it.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on July 27, 2012, 07:28:10 PM
I see American society far away from this bogeyman that gets called in every time.
People also horrendously underestimate the detrimental effect to society events like this one and the Aurora one have. Living in constant fear of your surroundings is a price that never gets factored into these discussions.

rumborak
I don't live in fear of my surroundings at all.  I try to maintain some vigilance, but that's really just common sense.  I was no less vigilant walking around in Berlin or Hamburg, either.  I don't have much trouble recognizing that the likelihood of my being shot and killed by a bad guy is remarkably low.  To be honest, I'm probably more afraid of cops than random murders. 
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: rumborak on July 27, 2012, 07:48:43 PM
No offense EB, but your thing with cops is rather irrational.

rumborak
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on July 27, 2012, 08:03:30 PM
Not really.  I'm not expressing paranoia or a particularly strong concern about them.  In the context of this discussion, it's really just the fact that I'm much more likely to come in contact with one of them than a random, gun-toting sociopath.  I don't trust them or like them, and given their genuine sense of paranoia, I'm not real comfortable dealing with them. 
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Adami on July 27, 2012, 08:07:12 PM
Actually I agree with Rumby Bart about your thing with cops, and it's not just based on this thread, but you seem to have a major distrust of all of them to the point of equating them to the murderers/thieves/whathaveyou that they are supposed to protect you from.

I mean I remember once breaking into a highschool in the middle of the night while the cops drove by, looked at me and then kept going. I know cops screw up a lot, but they generally do their job I'm pretty sure.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Super Dude on July 27, 2012, 08:20:03 PM
Not to mention it only proves my point. Well, rumby's point really, but also the jump-off point I was trying to make as a result of it.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Adami on July 27, 2012, 08:21:39 PM
Not to mention it only proves my point. Well, rumby's point really, but also the jump-off point I was trying to make as a result of it.

What?
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Super Dude on July 27, 2012, 08:22:22 PM
How poisonous American society as a whole is/has become. People are just unbelievably afraid of each other, and it really comes up to the culture.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Adami on July 27, 2012, 08:24:19 PM
How poisonous American society as a whole is/has become. People are just unbelievably afraid of each other, and it really comes up to the culture.

Somewhat. There really isn't an "American society or culture" per se. Northerners and Southerners are quite different even today.


Nonetheless I can't wait to leave this country.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Super Dude on July 27, 2012, 08:25:33 PM
I don't think the North/South divide even matters in this case. I think all Americans have this paranoia to some degree, and I think it's because the root of this fear runs deeper than that very divide.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Adami on July 27, 2012, 08:29:11 PM
I don't think the North/South divide even matters in this case. I think all Americans have this paranoia to some degree, and I think it's because the root of this fear runs deeper than that very divide.

Well it matters to a degree, I mean I bet you won't hear about a New Yorker shooting someone for a stupid reason.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Super Dude on July 27, 2012, 08:35:16 PM
Yeah, my comment was actually meant to drift away from that somewhat to what that expectation has done. I feel like culturally Americans almost expect people to do terrible things to them (whether violent gun crimes or breaking into their house and robbing them), people are really wary of each other and it does away with the neighborly aspect essential to the health of a society.

Once again I'm not sure if I'm articulating this well, but I feel like our culture is characterized by a general lack of faith in human decency, and when you don't feel like you can trust the cops (something that our culture also inculcates in us which I believe comes from earlier), that doesn't leave you with a lot of options. The only person you can trust at that point is yourself.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Adami on July 27, 2012, 08:43:09 PM
Yeah, my comment was actually meant to drift away from that somewhat to what that expectation has done. I feel like culturally Americans almost expect people to do terrible things to them (whether violent gun crimes or breaking into their house and robbing them), people are really wary of each other and it does away with the neighborly aspect essential to the health of a society.

Once again I'm not sure if I'm articulating this well, but I feel like our culture is characterized by a general lack of faith in human decency, and when you don't feel like you can trust the cops (something that our culture also inculcates in us which I believe comes from earlier), that doesn't leave you with a lot of options. The only person you can trust at that point is yourself.

This post brought to you by Ron Paul.

But seriously, I agree to a point. I don't think everyone is like that but it does seem to be a growing mindset of "Everyone will hurt me if I don't defend myself at all costs".
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Super Dude on July 27, 2012, 08:52:16 PM
I mean that last bit is part of my theoretical framework. Whether only being able to trust yourself reflects reality or not, society can't function that way. That's one of the mortal flaws of libertarianism; its foundation is built entirely upon distrust of your fellow man, and that's a terrible basis on which to establish a society. No society could ever last like that.

And I don't think it's a mindset of such a degree that everyone's out there looking to arm themselves; I just think people don't trust each other and that's eating away at our sense of community nationwide. Maybe Americans won't become outwardly hostile to one another, but as I said it makes them less neighborly, and it's hard to fix a sinking ship if each member of the crew thinks the other is going to toss him overboard.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: rumborak on July 27, 2012, 09:08:56 PM
Coming from another country, it was definitely a distinct thing I noticed in the US. They come together when they have a common foe, but outside of that Americans don't really like or care all that much for each other.

rumborak
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Scheavo on July 27, 2012, 09:31:24 PM
I just think people don't trust each other and that's eating away at our sense of community nationwide.

I think you got the order slightly confused, though I'd say it's mostly a loop. Our lack of sense of a community is what makes us not trust each other.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on July 27, 2012, 11:12:12 PM
Actually I agree with Rumby Bart about your thing with cops, and it's not just based on this thread, but you seem to have a major distrust of all of them to the point of equating them to the murderers/thieves/whathaveyou that they are supposed to protect you from.

I mean I remember once breaking into a highschool in the middle of the night while the cops drove by, looked at me and then kept going. I know cops screw up a lot, but they generally do their job I'm pretty sure.
I don't equate cops with those people at all.  Obviously, there are some crooked cops, but I consider them the exception.  My concern is more about a unique form of dirtiness that's the normal result of putting people into their position.  Their job is highly adversarial, and by and large, you're either one of them, you're a sheep or you're a wolf who's fixing to shoot them in the face. 

If you're one of them, which is none of us, then you're always in the right and the law can't apply to you.  Tonight, if a cop from Dallas pulls over an off-duty LVPD cop who blows a .15, he's going to give him a ride home.  His log is going to show he assisted a stranded motorist.  They're brothers and what they do is too important to ruin over a possible lapse in judgement. 

As for everybody else, it's his call as to whether or not you get the sheep or the wolf treatment, and they default to wolf; better safe than sorry.  Next time you get a ticket, notice how he keeps his hand on his gun as he approaches.  You're bad before you're deemed acceptable.  For the most part, I think they do a pretty good job of sorting out the good guys from the bad.  This isn't usually a problem.  Unfortunately, not all of them do, and whether it's because they're assholes or just misread the situation, plenty of people wind up having terrible experiences with bad consequences and nonexistent recourse.  Once a situation turns ugly, you're fucked.  Your word doesn't mean anything anymore because theirs counts more, and there are always crimes you can be charged with. 

Consider homeless guy in So-Cal who got beat/tazed to death (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Kelly_Thomas).  It wasn't one psycho cop who did it.  It was a situation that escalated out of control because of the mentality involved in the people handling the situation.  While homicides like that aren't the norm, when they do happen is usually a result of police just being police.  I suspect that all the cops that beat him to death thought they were handling the situation perfectly appropriately at the time.  From what I've read, most still think that. 

As for locale, you will see a very big difference.  Most of my younger years were spent watching corruption and scandals dealing with DPD and it's good ole boy system.  Factor in Henry Wade's drunk, crooked ass and some good, ole fashioned racism, and it was a pretty dicey scene down here.  Believe me when I tell you that nobody in Dallas was ever taught that the police are your friends. 
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: hefdaddy42 on July 28, 2012, 06:17:56 AM
I don't think the North/South divide even matters in this case.
I think it does.  I don't see anyone living in paranoia down here.  "Southern hospitality" isn't just a catch-phrase.  We generally like each other down here.  And, I'm guessing, in most other parts of the country that aren't urban areas.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: snapple on July 28, 2012, 08:58:06 AM
I don't think the North/South divide even matters in this case.
I think it does.  I don't see anyone living in paranoia down here.  "Southern hospitality" isn't just a catch-phrase.  We generally like each other down here.  And, I'm guessing, in most other parts of the country that aren't urban areas.

from a non urban area in the north, I'll say that we generally like each other around here.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: jammindude on July 28, 2012, 09:18:33 AM
I don't think the North/South divide even matters in this case.
I think it does.  I don't see anyone living in paranoia down here.  "Southern hospitality" isn't just a catch-phrase.  We generally like each other down here.  And, I'm guessing, in most other parts of the country that aren't urban areas.

My understanding is that they all like each other, because most of them have the same attitude about things.   Try to bring in new ideas....

In other words...they have the same paranoia, just on a collective basis, not an individual basis. 

I've been to Texas, and I agree they have the most open and friendly atmosphere of any place I've ever been.   But I have heard that it is not pleasant if a person has a whole lot of liberal ideals and tries to live there. 
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: snapple on July 28, 2012, 09:32:05 AM
There are plenty of liberals in Ft.Worth/Dallas
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on July 28, 2012, 10:47:23 AM
I've been to Texas, and I agree they have the most open and friendly atmosphere of any place I've ever been.   But I have heard that it is not pleasant if a person has a whole lot of liberal ideals and tries to live there.
Nonsense.  Aside from all the urban liberals that Snapple referred to, the rural conservatives are even more likely to be super-friendly to you.  They might talk shit about you behind your back, but they're still going to bend over backwards to be friendly.  Keep in mind, most people down here don't really volunteer their ideology, except in the way of bumper stickers.  If I move into a house in Sugarland, with a Hope bumper sticker, the neighbors are still going to show up with pie, talk about lawn care, and invite me over for football on Sundays.  They just won't ask me about my politics as it might make it harder to keep up the good neighbor demeanor, which is pretty important down here. 
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: snapple on July 28, 2012, 11:32:57 AM
I've been to Texas, and I agree they have the most open and friendly atmosphere of any place I've ever been.   But I have heard that it is not pleasant if a person has a whole lot of liberal ideals and tries to live there.
Nonsense.  Aside from all the urban liberals that Snapple referred to, the rural conservatives are even more likely to be super-friendly to you.  They might talk shit about you behind your back, but they're still going to bend over backwards to be friendly.  Keep in mind, most people down here don't really volunteer their ideology, except in the way of bumper stickers.  If I move into a house in Sugarland, with a Hope bumper sticker, the neighbors are still going to show up with pie, talk about lawn care, and invite me over for football on Sundays.  They just won't ask me about my politics as it might make it harder to keep up the good neighbor demeanor, which is pretty important down here.


You're making Texas sound fucking wonderful.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Progmetty on July 28, 2012, 03:17:48 PM
It's exactly as he describes from my experience.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: rumborak on July 28, 2012, 03:36:23 PM
There is definitely strong "localism" in the US. But, correct me if I'm wrong, if a Texan was asked to pay taxes to subsidize something in Massachusetts, it would be met with a resounding "fuck no".

rumborak
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on July 28, 2012, 05:57:22 PM
If a Texan were asked to pay taxes to subsidize a guy across the street, he'd say fuck no.  It's nothing against the neighbor or the Yankee.  There's a principle involved, and honestly, that principle would apply if the roles were reversed.  However, if asked, he might well want to help out.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Adami on July 28, 2012, 06:05:53 PM
I was actually really close to moving to Texas. In fact I think what stopped me was the real estate guy was totally pointless and made my visit and search for a home a horrible experience.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: yeshaberto on July 28, 2012, 06:10:41 PM
really love that place...if it weren't for perfect temps, year round sunshine, mountains and beaches of SoCal, I would gladly be back
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: XJDenton on July 29, 2012, 05:27:47 PM
On the subject of gun control:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/markgibbs/2012/07/28/the-end-of-gun-control/

This is an interesting one. 3D printing is going to make things very interesting in a lot of areas in the next few years.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: snapple on July 29, 2012, 05:33:15 PM
On the subject of gun control:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/markgibbs/2012/07/28/the-end-of-gun-control/

This is an interesting one. 3D printing is going to make things very interesting in a lot of areas in the next few years.

Wow. You could just print all the parts of the gun and assemble it yourself (skimmed the article, but I assumes this is what it was getting at)
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Adami on July 29, 2012, 06:03:33 PM
Just youtubed 3D printing and ...........holy crap! That is some amazing technology.


Although I doubt the day will come any time soon where normal civilians have one handy.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: snapple on July 29, 2012, 06:06:11 PM
Just youtubed 3D printing and ...........holy crap! That is some amazing technology.


Although I doubt the day will come any time soon where normal civilians have one handy.

Fleshlights without the shame of ordering one online?
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Adami on July 29, 2012, 06:07:58 PM
Just youtubed 3D printing and ...........holy crap! That is some amazing technology.


Although I doubt the day will come any time soon where normal civilians have one handy.

Fleshlights without the shame of ordering one online?

Dude you're married.

Obviously if 3d printing became common place, I'm making an entire god damn army of transformer toys.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: snapple on July 29, 2012, 06:14:05 PM
Obviously I'm married. I was trying to find practicality for you.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Adami on July 29, 2012, 06:15:39 PM
Obviously I'm married. I was trying to find practicality for you.

And I did. A god damn army of transformer toys.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: snapple on July 29, 2012, 06:16:50 PM
somewhere bosk is upset that he granted access to this exclusive section to us and we're talking about fleshlights and Transformers.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Adami on July 29, 2012, 06:19:41 PM
somewhere bosk is upset that he granted access to this exclusive section to us and we're talking about fleshlights and Transformers.

You can distract Bosk with your fleshlight and my army of transformers will claim victory over him.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: rumborak on July 29, 2012, 06:38:35 PM
I would print a 3D printer. And watch the singularity happen in front of me.

rumborak
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Adami on July 29, 2012, 06:39:54 PM
I would print a 3D printer. And watch the singularity happen in front of me.

rumborak

Since the inputs are done via computer, you should input a 4D image and stand back.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: XJDenton on July 29, 2012, 06:43:44 PM
This was not the direction I expected my post to take this thread.

Not a complaint, just an observation.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on July 29, 2012, 08:32:34 PM
Remember the fear mongering about Glocks being plastic and able to skate past airport metal detectors?  I think John McClain might have started that nonsense. This is similar.  You can already buy the upper receiver that he printed without many questions.  If you buy a used assault rifle form a second party, which is already perfectly legal, it's no problem to turn it into a full auto.  There's really no threat here to registration of ownership, since it's fairly bogus anyway.  Another problem is that full autos aren't particular practical, as all of us gamers can attest.  There's a reason why the military use their weapons in a select fire mode (Bosk can correct me if I'm wrong).  Assholes like Aurura dude are better off using standard assault rifles than machine guns.  Moreover, there are still parts you won't be able to print.  I'm somewhat up on 3d printing, and I've heard nothing about printing metals.  A plastic barrel isn't going to help.  Springs?  Frankly, this is just being alarmist over something that won't matter for a variety of reasons.

As for 3d printing, groovy stuff.  The more fascinating implication will be what it does to the world job market.  For some reason, shoes are the thing that always gets cited as an example.  What happens to Nike, Reebok and Adidas when everybody's printing their own shoes?  Yeah, I'm gonna pay $120 for something that can be printed for $5.  LOL.  A well known torrent site already added a category for printable, BTW.  If they can make conductive components printable, then there goes a huge chunk of the electronics industry.  You'll be able to download an opensource motherboard and suddenly a million guys at Foxxcon are SOL.  In fact, an Xbox shouldn't be too hard to print up, except maybe the drives, and the opensource MOBO's would allow you to use off the shelf parts, unlike those bastards at M$. 

I'll also point out that plenty of people are building their own 3D printers.  The technology isn't all that complicated, and plans are readily available.  You can find plenty of DIY versions on youtube. 
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on July 29, 2012, 08:47:12 PM
An addendum to that post.  It occurs to me that a person could use such technology to print custom receivers, which means they could invent weapons that don't technically exist as of right now.  If you build a full auto upper receiver to a 22LR rifle, you've just created one vicious piece of weaponry.  Large ammo capacity.  Quiet. Zero recoil.  Great accuracy. Nasty business.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: rumborak on July 30, 2012, 07:31:16 AM
I like the potential of 3D printers, but we're lightyears away from printing anything more complex than mechanics parts at home. The complexity involved in printing a mobo would just kill any monetary benefit.

rumborak
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Super Dude on July 30, 2012, 11:57:44 AM
And may it stay that way during my lifetime. The thought of such easy access to gun parts is horrific.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Adami on July 30, 2012, 12:09:49 PM
And may it stay that way during my lifetime. The thought of such easy access to gun parts is horrific.

Yes, but imagine such easy access to an army of Transformer toys!


It's worth it.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on July 30, 2012, 12:56:35 PM
And may it stay that way during my lifetime. The thought of such easy access to gun parts is horrific.
Ye Gods.  You'd write off what could be one of the most important developments of the modern era because some people might print gun parts?  Were your parents hunted for sport or something?
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Adami on July 30, 2012, 02:24:29 PM
And may it stay that way during my lifetime. The thought of such easy access to gun parts is horrific.
Ye Gods.  You'd write off what could be one of the most important developments of the modern era because some people might print gun parts?  Were your parents hunted for sport or something?

It's pretty likely that many of his ancestors were, as were mine.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on July 30, 2012, 02:38:11 PM
That wouldn't contribute to an irrational fear of guns, though. 
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Adami on July 30, 2012, 02:46:47 PM
That wouldn't contribute to an irrational fear of guns, though.

It should also be noted that the film "The Pest" is based directly on SuperDude's life.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Super Dude on July 30, 2012, 02:52:24 PM
 :lol

To be serious, I'm not necessarily writing off 3D printing as a whole. I mean, it does by its own nature bring the emerging world of post-scarcity closer by like twenty steps. But hey, even inventions capable of producing great good are capable of producing great evil. I hate guns. I see absolutely no redeeming qualities in owning or being capable of using guns. What great benefit does one get out of being able to kill people? And I do hate the idea of hunting, especially when it's for sport.

And yes, what Adami said.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Cool Chris on July 30, 2012, 03:10:55 PM
I see absolutely no redeeming qualities in owning or being capable of using guns. What great benefit does one get out of being able to kill people?

A family member of mine had someone break in to her house last week. While trying to rape her, he choked her to the point that her vision is still blurry. She could have benefitted greatly from owning a gun.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Super Dude on July 30, 2012, 03:14:28 PM
I'm sorry that happened to your family member and I hope she's okay. That said, there are hundreds of other occasions in which that gun was used not to defend but instead to cause suffering. Heck, guns are used to get into people's houses and murder them. Or, the person in the house may decide arbitrarily that someone, of no fault of their own, is encroaching on their property, and promptly shoot and kill them. Or you could take the countless examples of times when dear ol' dad decides to teach his son the magic of learning to shoot his first gun, and junior ends up blowing his own head off.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Cool Chris on July 30, 2012, 03:22:15 PM
I didn't mean to throw that out there to stir the pot. I am obviously upset and angry and saddened by it all and felt like being argumentative. I think possibly a good can of mace would have done the trick. But I also know she is a single gal living alone in a crappy neighborhood, and she shouldn't have to fight for her life with nothing but her fingernails.

She is a fighter and a great woman, and getting better every day. She might be back at work today even, I haven't checked in.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on July 30, 2012, 03:28:02 PM
I realize you hate guns, SD, and that's perfectly cool, but your logic here is really poor.  First off, the overwhelming majority of guns are never fired at anything other than a paper target or a water bottle.  They're on hand just in case, and there's a certain sporting quality to them, as well. 

As for your countless examples of suicides, the Japanese kind of screw that one all to hell for you.  Interestingly, between filling their apartments up with hydrogen sulfide, which kills the first responders, and jumping in front of trains and making half of Tokyo late for work, I suspect they'd greatly prefer people to have access to guns. 
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Adami on July 30, 2012, 03:29:36 PM
I don't believe civilians should have guns.


However everyone should be free to have one if they so choose.

Then again I welcome the complete destruction of humanity by their own hands.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Super Dude on July 30, 2012, 03:34:08 PM
I realize you hate guns, SD, and that's perfectly cool, but your logic here is really poor.  First off, the overwhelming majority of guns are never fired at anything other than a paper target or a water bottle.  They're on hand just in case, and there's a certain sporting quality to them, as well. 

As for your countless examples of suicides, the Japanese kind of screw that one all to hell for you.  Interestingly, between filling their apartments up with hydrogen sulfide, which kills the first responders, and jumping in front of trains and making half of Tokyo late for work, I suspect they'd greatly prefer people to have access to guns.

No, I think they'd prefer to crack down on suicides.

And honestly, I don't understand what's so sporting about having a gun. Must be a goyishkite thing.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: snapple on July 30, 2012, 06:09:28 PM
Just because you don't understand why doesn't mean people shouldn't have them. I don't understand why people do many things, but I just accept the fact that they do and it doesn't really matter to me.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Jaffa on July 30, 2012, 06:20:57 PM
I don't understand why people do many things, but I just accept the fact that they do and it doesn't really matter to me.

Well, I think I agree with you on the overall issue of gun control, but this particular logic doesn't apply very well here.  It's hard to say 'it doesn't really matter to me' about an issue that potentially determines safety.  I think gun control matters to pretty much anyone provided someone is aiming a gun at them. 
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Super Dude on July 30, 2012, 06:28:38 PM
Example: I have a former friend who has a couple of screws loose and thinks the government is out to get him. He also believes that the government put fluoride in the water system in order to enable mind control (not indoctrination, mind you, actual mind control). He recently bought a gun, with a laser sight. I am very afraid of this fella.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Adami on July 30, 2012, 06:35:53 PM
Example: I have a former friend who has a couple of screws loose and thinks the government is out to get him. He also believes that the government put fluoride in the water system in order to enable mind control (not indoctrination, mind you, actual mind control). He recently bought a gun, with a laser sight. I am very afraid of this fella.


As you should be. But most gun owners are not your whacked out former friend.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: theseoafs on July 30, 2012, 06:40:36 PM
But a non-negligible amount of people are as whacked-out or more, right?
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Super Dude on July 30, 2012, 06:43:58 PM
And with 3D printing, it would be easier for those other known whackos, who may or may not be barred from possession of weapons for fear of inducing harm on others and/or themselves, to gain access to weaponry.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: snapple on July 30, 2012, 08:23:17 PM
Example: I have a former friend who has a couple of screws loose and thinks the government is out to get him. He also believes that the government put fluoride in the water system in order to enable mind control (not indoctrination, mind you, actual mind control). He recently bought a gun, with a laser sight. I am very afraid of this fella.

Your fears and personal experiences =/= my fears and personal experiences.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on July 31, 2012, 11:52:45 AM
I've been catching up with those assholes at the cop forum, and a lot of their recent discussions are interesting in relation to our current gun control motif.  For one thing, cops tend to be very much in favor of civvies owning and using guns, and they're pretty cool with CCW.  Regarding the notion here that guns turn normal people into deranged lunatics, the self-appointed protectors of the sheep think the opposite.  Given their attitudes towards their own safety and our worthlessness, I find that quite telling.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Scheavo on August 01, 2012, 02:06:35 PM
Regarding the notion here that guns turn normal people into deranged lunatics, the self-appointed protectors of the sheep think the opposite.  Given their attitudes towards their own safety and our worthlessness, I find that quite telling.

I wouldn't go as far as "deranged lunatics," but you gotta admit that holding a gun changes your perspective, and might make you do something you otherwise wouldn't do. Not just because you cant' do it, but because you now feel safe enough to do it.

But of course, that's not really going to be a problem for a law abiding citizen. Guns present more of a problem for crimes, because I'm willing to bet one of the biggest concerns for criminals is fear. Having a gun does away with that fear.

Anyways, came here to post this:

https://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/08/01/georgia-businessman-posts-sign-after-didnt-build-that-debate/#ixzz22K2GACc1

Times like this, democracy seems like a stupid, stupid fucking idea.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on August 01, 2012, 02:35:56 PM
Regarding the notion here that guns turn normal people into deranged lunatics, the self-appointed protectors of the sheep think the opposite.  Given their attitudes towards their own safety and our worthlessness, I find that quite telling.

I wouldn't go as far as "deranged lunatics," but you gotta admit that holding a gun changes your perspective, and might make you do something you otherwise wouldn't do. Not just because you cant' do it, but because you now feel safe enough to do it.
Holding a gun absolutely changes your perspective.  In my case, it makes me acutely aware that I've got a deadly weapon in my hand, and any lapse in judgment or care can kill me or someone else needlessly.  I know you're not trying to argue with me about it, but it merits mention that for the law abiding, the extreme sense of necessary responsibility far outweighs the possible power trip.  The people who feel empowered because of gun ownership are the sorts that are just as likely to cause problems with or without a gun. 
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Scheavo on August 01, 2012, 03:34:03 PM
Quote
But of course, that's not really going to be a problem for a law abiding citizen

Ya, definitely not arguing with you. Just playing devils advocate a little. If I truly had a problem with guns, I wouldn't live in Montana.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Scheavo on August 02, 2012, 01:16:04 PM
https://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/A/AS_CHINA_KNIFE_ATTACK?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2012-08-02-06-05-46

Quote
A teenager killed eight people with a knife and wounded five more in northeast China after falling out with his girlfriend, state media said Thursday.

Figured this fit the discussion going on in this chat.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Super Dude on August 03, 2012, 12:55:48 PM
On the lighter side of things. Sorta.

(https://keepamericafree.com/images/paul-krugman-is-tired.jpg)
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: GuineaPig on August 05, 2012, 02:44:40 PM
Another mass shooting.  This time at a Sikh temple in Wisconsin.  7 dead, apparently including the gunman.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Adami on August 05, 2012, 02:47:45 PM
Another mass shooting.  This time at a Sikh temple in Wisconsin.  7 dead, apparently including the gunman.

Yea this one caught me off guard. Who the hell has a problem with the Sikhs?


I'd very curious who the killers were and what their motivations are.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: GuineaPig on August 05, 2012, 02:52:12 PM
Apparently the shooter was white.  Some are speculating that the shooter mistook them for Muslims.  Seems somewhat plausible in that it has happened before, and is Ramadan right now.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Adami on August 05, 2012, 02:57:40 PM
Apparently the shooter was white.  Some are speculating that the shooter mistook them for Muslims.  Seems somewhat plausible in that it has happened before, and is Ramadan right now.

That was actually my first assumption, a white shooter who thought sikh's were muslims.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on August 05, 2012, 03:03:33 PM
That's what they get for not arming themselves.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Adami on August 05, 2012, 03:04:18 PM
That's what they get for not arming themselves.

I wish I knew if you were joking.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: theseoafs on August 05, 2012, 03:14:06 PM
That's what they get for not arming themselves.

El Barto, I get that you think there would be less crime if everyone had guns.  That's fine.

But to insinuate that they somehow deserved to get shot because they weren't carrying fatal weapons?  Seriously?  That's just awful, dude.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: rumborak on August 05, 2012, 03:28:18 PM
Wow. If it's true, it's the epitome of ignorance to mistake Sikhs for Muslims.

rumborak
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Scheavo on August 05, 2012, 06:02:05 PM
But the turbans!

I'm not all that surprised if some dumb American thought Shikhs were Muslims, I am more surprised to hear there's a large Shikh population in Wisconsin...
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: rumborak on August 05, 2012, 07:26:23 PM
I was just reading an article about Syria, and it struck me that outside the oil thing which fuels the whole thing, just the fact that the Middle East is birthplace of shitloads of religions doesn't help. There's Shiites, Sunni, Alawites, Salafists, Jews, Christians, and they all inherently distrust each other.

rumborak
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: snapple on August 07, 2012, 05:58:59 AM
Im at a conference early, and there is some woman here who is going on and on about politics. She's a liberal, which is a knock. But the baseball can I am, you get three strikes. Well, she's also talking about issues she clearly has no idea about. Strike two. And then she said she doesn't trust "those dark people" and is trying to convince others of the same.

Why isn't the speaker here? He's like 10 minutes late.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Scheavo on August 07, 2012, 11:23:14 AM
If she doesn't trust dark people, she's not really a liberal. She might be more liberal than you, on some issues, but she's not a liberal.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: GuineaPig on August 07, 2012, 11:34:06 AM
 ::)
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Scheavo on August 07, 2012, 11:37:53 AM
Oh right, i forgot, people don't like to use the definitions of words anymore. How silly of me to apply the dictionary definition to someone.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Super Dude on August 07, 2012, 11:42:10 AM
 :corn

I will weigh in however by saying that just because she's more liberal than you doesn't make her a liberal. And if it does, our country is fucked.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: GuineaPig on August 07, 2012, 11:50:16 AM
Oh right, i forgot, people don't like to use the definitions of words anymore. How silly of me to apply the dictionary definition to someone.

The definition included so many different things, that you could literally name any famous liberal from history and they would not qualify to that standard.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: snapple on August 07, 2012, 12:07:18 PM
She said that she was a liberal*
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Scheavo on August 07, 2012, 12:44:17 PM
If I don't believe in Jesus Christ as my personal savior, and I call myself a Christian, am I right?

One problem is, the Democratic party is no longer that liberal. Most of what it stands up for is a conservation of existing rights and existing practices. It doesn't really fight for anything new, and where it does, it does it in a conservative fashion. People who identify more with the Democrats, wrongfully, think they're liberal. That may not be the case. I'm a liberal, and I barely identify with the Democrats.

Oh right, i forgot, people don't like to use the definitions of words anymore. How silly of me to apply the dictionary definition to someone.

The definition included so many different things, that you could literally name any famous liberal from history and they would not qualify to that standard.

Open-mindedness is sorta the backbone of liberal thought, though. It's not like it's some obscure definition, it's the heart and core of what it means to be a liberal.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: snapple on August 07, 2012, 10:44:58 PM
If I don't believe in Jesus Christ as my personal savior, and I call myself a Christian, am I right?


Let me stop you right there. I'm just saying what she said. I'm not trying to say anything else. It was a "holy shit, people say things like this in public?"
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Super Dude on August 08, 2012, 01:05:19 PM
Which was also why it was important for you to mention that her simply being a liberal "was a knock."
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Scheavo on August 08, 2012, 01:08:58 PM
If I don't believe in Jesus Christ as my personal savior, and I call myself a Christian, am I right?


Let me stop you right there. I'm just saying what she said. I'm not trying to say anything else. It was a "holy shit, people say things like this in public?"

Not really responding to you in that post, so I don't know why you would be stopping me.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Adami on August 08, 2012, 01:09:37 PM
Which was also why it was important for you to mention that her simply being a liberal "was a knock."

Oh you liberals. Maybe he meant knocked as in ummm knocking on wood? So a good luck trait!

Or like Knocked Up, so that she was super sexy and he wanted to get her pregnant because she was a liberal.

Or maybe Knocking on Heaven's Door. Maybe her being a liberal reminded him of Bob Dylan.


Don't be so sensitive!
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Super Dude on August 08, 2012, 01:15:04 PM
BTW my brother called me obnoxious and delusional because I don't believe his theory that because I'm a Jew, all of Europe and the Middle East wants to kill me. Sure, I realize those places are dangerous for Jews now or at least not as safe as they were, but I've never known someone to take it to as ridiculous degree as that.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Adami on August 08, 2012, 01:15:45 PM
BTW my brother called me obnoxious and delusional because I don't believe his theory that because I'm a Jew, all of Europe and the Middle East wants to kill me.

Well.......not ALL of Europe and the Middle East.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Super Dude on August 08, 2012, 01:16:12 PM
Not sure if srs....
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Adami on August 08, 2012, 01:17:07 PM
Not sure if srs....

That should probably be my new slogan or something.


And no, I wasn't serious. Well........I was serious that not all of Europe and the Middle East wants to kill you.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Super Dude on August 08, 2012, 01:22:49 PM
:P
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Implode on August 08, 2012, 01:36:45 PM
These have been a depressing few pages.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: snapple on August 08, 2012, 03:58:41 PM
Which was also why it was important for you to mention that her simply being a liberal "was a knock."

I thought this was the light hearted part of the PR forum?
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Adami on August 08, 2012, 03:59:28 PM
Which was also why it was important for you to mention that her simply being a liberal "was a knock."

I thought this was the light hearted part of the PR forum?

Bleeding heart liberals, not light hearted liberals. But I understand the confusion.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Super Dude on August 08, 2012, 04:29:39 PM
Which was also why it was important for you to mention that her simply being a liberal "was a knock."

I thought this was the light hearted part of the PR forum?

Lighthearted ≠ Immunity from scrutiny.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: snapple on August 08, 2012, 07:43:33 PM
I lol'd. My initial post was meant that the woman was completely stupid. The liberal being a knock thing was a joke.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: ohgar on August 13, 2012, 01:37:26 PM
I have noticed there are two continents called "America" while there is also a country called "America," where I live. This is very confusing to me because when I'm on the phone with a call center worker in El Salvador and I say, "I want to speak with an American," he always insists that he is an American, even though he knows he's not really.

Therefore I propose we rename South America "El Chupacabra" and North America "Greater America."

Proposed new map:

(https://i.imgur.com/6mpTq.jpg)

Thoughts?
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: antigoon on August 13, 2012, 01:54:24 PM
:lol
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: eric42434224 on August 13, 2012, 01:55:41 PM
Brasil should just be called Thong.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Super Dude on August 13, 2012, 09:09:46 PM
I sincerely hope that none of you ever have the misfortune of becoming a member of Inthe00s.com. As a self-identifying liberal, I find them way too fucking extreme. I have never known individuals to despise the rich and generalize them into such a monolithic group as the members of that board do.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on August 16, 2012, 08:00:00 AM
Dave's such a smart guy. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KyDmoCDgqBk&feature=player_embedded
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: bosk1 on August 16, 2012, 08:29:28 AM
I don't think the North/South divide even matters in this case.
I think it does.  I don't see anyone living in paranoia down here.  "Southern hospitality" isn't just a catch-phrase.  We generally like each other down here.  And, I'm guessing, in most other parts of the country that aren't urban areas.

It's not a coincidence that the people in my neighborhood nicknamed it "Mayberry."
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: rumborak on August 16, 2012, 08:37:07 AM
Dave's such a smart guy. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KyDmoCDgqBk&feature=player_embedded

Woooow. That guy has jumped the shark.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: hefdaddy42 on August 16, 2012, 09:45:31 AM
Yeah.  Here's an article.  What a maroon.

https://entertainment.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/08/16/13314799-megadeths-dave-mustaine-says-obama-is-behind-deadly-shootings?lite
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: rumborak on August 16, 2012, 09:59:33 AM
You can say whatever about the merits of either left or right political views, but there's a distinct tendency for the kooks to end up on the right.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on August 16, 2012, 10:06:53 AM
Yeah.  Here's an article.  What a maroon.

https://entertainment.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/08/16/13314799-megadeths-dave-mustaine-says-obama-is-behind-deadly-shootings?lite
Is he also a nincowpoop?  :lol
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Scheavo on August 16, 2012, 10:11:32 AM
I never get how some on the right, simultaneously sometimes, think that the government and the people in the government are inept, but at the same time, able to carry on massive conspiracies, and keep it hidden. Obviously there's plenty of liberals with crackpot conspiracy theories, but they don't think government is inept like conservatives.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Super Dude on August 16, 2012, 11:41:28 AM
I never get how some on the right, simultaneously sometimes, think that the government and the people in the government are inept, but at the same time, able to carry on massive conspiracies, and keep it hidden. Obviously there's plenty of liberals with crackpot conspiracy theories, but they don't think government is inept like conservatives.

That's the best part of a scapegoat, really. You can assign whatever mutually contradicting qualities you want, and no one will think twice about it. The Jews are certainly comfortably familiar with this paradoxical state of affairs.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Jaffa on August 16, 2012, 05:03:43 PM
Yeah.  Here's an article.  What a maroon.

https://entertainment.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/08/16/13314799-megadeths-dave-mustaine-says-obama-is-behind-deadly-shootings?lite

 :facepalm:
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Adami on August 16, 2012, 05:41:23 PM
I never get how some on the right, simultaneously sometimes, think that the government and the people in the government are inept, but at the same time, able to carry on massive conspiracies, and keep it hidden. Obviously there's plenty of liberals with crackpot conspiracy theories, but they don't think government is inept like conservatives.

That's the best part of a scapegoat, really. You can assign whatever mutually contradicting qualities you want, and no one will think twice about it. The Jews are certainly comfortably familiar with this paradoxical state of affairs.


Very true. But you know what makes it bearable to hear all of those insults and constantly be the scapegoat? Do you know what makes it all worth while?

Running the world secretly.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: snapple on August 16, 2012, 05:44:14 PM
You can say whatever about the merits of either left or right political views, but there's a distinct tendency for the kooks to end up on the right.

Maybe it just depends on the tint of whatever glasses we are wearing?
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Super Dude on August 16, 2012, 05:48:14 PM
Sure, liberals have their fair share of nuts: Unabomber and ELF come to mind. But it should also be very telling that one can name only a couple such specific examples. Right wing nutjobs are a dime a dozen.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: snapple on August 16, 2012, 05:50:49 PM
Sure, liberals have their fair share of nuts: Unabomber and ELF come to mind. But it should also be very telling that one can name only a couple such specific examples. Right wing nutjobs are a dime a dozen.

I feel the same way about liberal nutjobs. However, it'd be interesting to hear you name some of the nutjobs and see if it is just a disagreement with policy views, or they really are nutjobs.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: rumborak on August 16, 2012, 06:19:10 PM
OK, let's see, from the top of my head: Pat Robertson, Rush Limbaugh, Fred Phelps, Ted Nugent, Dave Mustaine, Sarah Palin, Michele Bachmann, Ron Paul, Wade Page (the Wisconsin shooter)...

For liberals, I can only think of Keith Olbermann who has a definitive screw loose.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Super Dude on August 16, 2012, 06:24:40 PM
Don't forget Glenn Beck and Timothy McVeigh.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: theseoafs on August 16, 2012, 06:52:01 PM
Could I submit Rick Santorum?
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: rumborak on August 16, 2012, 06:58:43 PM
Alex Jones
9/11 truthers
Young Earthers
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Adami on August 16, 2012, 06:59:23 PM
OK, let's see, from the top of my head: Pat Robertson, Rush Limbaugh, Fred Phelps, Ted Nugent, Dave Mustaine, Sarah Palin, Michele Bachmann, Ron Paul, Wade Page (the Wisconsin shooter)...

For liberals, I can only think of Keith Olbermann who has a definitive screw loose.

Short of whoever Wade Page is, I assume Snapple will group those people under "disagreement of political views".
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: theseoafs on August 16, 2012, 07:01:58 PM
If Snapple groups Fred Phelps under "disagreement of political views", I will leave DTF.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Adami on August 16, 2012, 07:02:52 PM
If Snapple groups Fred Phelps under "disagreement of political views", I will leave DTF.

Missed that name there. Fine, short of Fred Phelps and Wade Wilson.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: rumborak on August 16, 2012, 07:04:00 PM
Their political views is the secondary point here though. Timothy McVeigh, Glenn Beck, Rush Limbaugh, Sarah Palin, Fred Phelps,  Ted Nugent, Alex Jones etc are half-crazy, and I don't think many will disagree. The point from there is to note that they all flocked to right-wing ideology.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Adami on August 16, 2012, 07:09:34 PM
Their political views is the secondary point here though. Timothy McVeigh, Glenn Beck, Rush Limbaugh, Sarah Palin, Fred Phelps,  Ted Nugent, Alex Jones etc are half-crazy, and I don't think many will disagree. The point from there is to note that they all flocked to right-wing ideology.

But many right wingers will probably not agree that Glenn Beck, Rush Limbaugh, Sarah Palin, or Ted Nugent are half crazy. In fact lots of American's completely agree with them and love them.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: rumborak on August 16, 2012, 07:19:58 PM
While I can see that point with Sarah Palin (she was more of an idiot than crazy), Glenn Beck got kicked from FOX because he went off the deep end. Getting kicked out of FOX for being too right-wing is like getting kicked out of the NSDAP for disliking Jews too much.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on August 16, 2012, 08:50:51 PM
Interesting.  I'd consider the current list a combination of nutjobs, morons, and just people with different ideologies.  People who get their instructions from God, or choose to kill people because of their beliefs have to get the nutjob label.  Pat Robertson and Fred Phelps are certainly nutjobs.  So is McVeigh, but I wouldn't lump him in with the politically motivated nutjobs; he was more of a free agent.  We should also add Eric Rudolph.  Nugent, Palin and Mustaine are just idiots.  Beck, Limbaugh and Jones are just performers who're paid to espouse conservative viewpoints.  And I'd probably put Jones in the free agent camp along with McVeigh. 

Interestingly, Tim McVeigh resigned his NRA membership because he thought they were too soft on guns.  Sort of like Beck and FOX.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Super Dude on August 16, 2012, 08:55:18 PM
Interesting.  I'd consider the current list a combination of nutjobs, morons, and just people with different ideologies.  People who get their instructions from God, or choose to kill people because of their beliefs have to get the nutjob label.  Pat Robertson and Fred Phelps are certainly nutjobs.  So is McVeigh, but I wouldn't lump him in with the politically motivated nutjobs; he was more of a free agent.  We should also add Eric Rudolph.  Nugent, Palin and Mustaine are just idiots.  Beck, Limbaugh and Jones are just performers who're paid to espouse conservative viewpoints.  And I'd probably put Jones in the free agent camp along with McVeigh. 

Interestingly, Tim McVeigh resigned his NRA membership because he thought they were too soft on guns.  Sort of like Beck and FOX.

Actually McVeigh was a Libertarian, as it turns out, and a registered Republican.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on August 16, 2012, 09:00:29 PM
Interesting.  I'd consider the current list a combination of nutjobs, morons, and just people with different ideologies.  People who get their instructions from God, or choose to kill people because of their beliefs have to get the nutjob label.  Pat Robertson and Fred Phelps are certainly nutjobs.  So is McVeigh, but I wouldn't lump him in with the politically motivated nutjobs; he was more of a free agent.  We should also add Eric Rudolph.  Nugent, Palin and Mustaine are just idiots.  Beck, Limbaugh and Jones are just performers who're paid to espouse conservative viewpoints.  And I'd probably put Jones in the free agent camp along with McVeigh. 

Interestingly, Tim McVeigh resigned his NRA membership because he thought they were too soft on guns.  Sort of like Beck and FOX.

Actually McVeigh was a Libertarian, as it turns out.
Yeah, but he might have been closer to an anarchist, honestly.  He was non-political enough that I'm not sure I'd lump him in with the conservative nutjob pool.  Same with that dipshit Weaver, who was also not mentioned.  Separatists certainly align more closely with the conservatives, but they're still a very different breed of animal.  I suppose that's part of the Tea Party's growing pains. 
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: snapple on August 17, 2012, 06:28:26 AM
Interesting.  I'd consider the current list a combination of nutjobs, morons, and just people with different ideologies.  People who get their instructions from God, or choose to kill people because of their beliefs have to get the nutjob label.  Pat Robertson and Fred Phelps are certainly nutjobs.  So is McVeigh, but I wouldn't lump him in with the politically motivated nutjobs; he was more of a free agent.  We should also add Eric Rudolph.  Nugent, Palin and Mustaine are just idiots.  Beck, Limbaugh and Jones are just performers who're paid to espouse conservative viewpoints.  And I'd probably put Jones in the free agent camp along with McVeigh. 

Interestingly, Tim McVeigh resigned his NRA membership because he thought they were too soft on guns.  Sort of like Beck and FOX.

Thanks for putting into words what I couldn't when I was sleeping.  :)
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on August 17, 2012, 02:51:48 PM
From Dave Mustaine to Tom Morello.  At least one of them is intelligent.

Quote from: Rolling Stone
Last week, Mitt Romney picked Paul Ryan, the Republican architect of Congress's radical right-wing budget plan, as his running mate. Ryan has previously cited Rage Against the Machine as one of his favorite bands. Rage guitarist Tom Morello responds in this exclusive op-ed.
Quote from: Tom Morello

Paul Ryan's love of Rage Against the Machine is amusing, because he is the embodiment of the machine that our music has been raging against for two decades. Charles Manson loved the Beatles but didn't understand them. Governor Chris Christie loves Bruce Springsteen but doesn't understand him. And Paul Ryan is clueless about his favorite band, Rage Against the Machine.

Ryan claims that he likes Rage's sound, but not the lyrics. Well, I don't care for Paul Ryan's sound or his lyrics. He can like whatever bands he wants, but his guiding vision of shifting revenue more radically to the one percent is antithetical to the message of Rage.

I wonder what Ryan's favorite Rage song is? Is it the one where we condemn the genocide of Native Americans? The one lambasting American imperialism? Our cover of "Fuck the Police"? Or is it the one where we call on the people to seize the means of production? So many excellent choices to jam out to at Young Republican meetings!

Don't mistake me, I clearly see that Ryan has a whole lotta "rage" in him: A rage against women, a rage against immigrants, a rage against workers, a rage against gays, a rage against the poor, a rage against the environment. Basically the only thing he's not raging against is the privileged elite he's groveling in front of for campaign contributions.

You see, the super rich must rationalize having more than they could ever spend while millions of children in the U.S. go to bed hungry every night. So, when they look themselves in the mirror, they convince themselves that "Those people are undeserving. They're . . . lesser." Some of these guys on the extreme right are more cynical than Paul Ryan, but he seems to really believe in this stuff. This unbridled rage against those who have the least is a cornerstone of the Romney-Ryan ticket.

But Rage's music affects people in different ways. Some tune out what the band stands for and concentrate on the moshing and throwing elbows in the pit. For others, Rage has changed their minds and their lives. Many activists around the world, including organizers of the global occupy movement, were radicalized by Rage Against the Machine and work tirelessly for a more humane and just planet. Perhaps Paul Ryan was moshing when he should have been listening.

My hope is that maybe Paul Ryan is a mole. Maybe Rage did plant some sensible ideas in this extreme fringe right wing nut job. Maybe if elected, he'll pardon Leonard Peltier.  Maybe he'll throw U.S. military support behind the Zapatistas. Maybe he'll fill Guantanamo Bay with the corporate criminals that are funding his campaign – and then torture them with Rage music 24/7. That's one possibility. But I'm not betting on it.
:tup

edited to replace newsclip with the complete Op-Ed piece.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: rumborak on August 17, 2012, 03:19:31 PM
Dayum. That was surprisingly well-written.
Kinda related, it's hilarious how RNCs and other such congregations always get cease-and-desist letters from artists telling them to stop playing their songs.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: soundgarden on August 20, 2012, 03:30:11 PM
Aken deserves all the backlash he is getting.  Still, this is seriously refreshing seeing how much of that backlash is coming from his fellow party members.  This is quite unusual for the GOP.  Its clearly not defensible, but still, this is some great RvR action.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: senecadawg2 on August 20, 2012, 04:42:38 PM
I saw an interesting bumper sticker today. It said "WE'LL REMEMBER 03-21-10 IN NOVEMBER". This was all it said... I highly doubt that the average American will even know the significance of that date.

Just a thought...
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on August 20, 2012, 04:51:09 PM
Aken deserves all the backlash he is getting.  Still, this is seriously refreshing seeing how much of that backlash is coming from his fellow party members.  This is quite unusual for the GOP.  Its clearly not defensible, but still, this is some great RvR action.
Yeah, I thought the same thing.  His own party's ready to light him on fire. 

I saw an interesting bumper sticker today. It said "WE'LL REMEMBER 03-21-10 IN NOVEMBER". This was all it said... I highly doubt that the average American will even know the significance of that date.

Just a thought...
I guessed right, but it really was a guess. 
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: senecadawg2 on August 20, 2012, 05:00:59 PM
I saw an interesting bumper sticker today. It said "WE'LL REMEMBER 03-21-10 IN NOVEMBER". This was all it said... I highly doubt that the average American will even know the significance of that date.

Just a thought...
I guessed right, but it really was a guess.

Me too...
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Scheavo on August 20, 2012, 05:28:53 PM
I saw an interesting bumper sticker today. It said "WE'LL REMEMBER 03-21-10 IN NOVEMBER". This was all it said... I highly doubt that the average American will even know the significance of that date.

Just a thought...
I guessed right, but it really was a guess.

Me too...

For the ignorant amongst us, what is that date?
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: senecadawg2 on August 20, 2012, 05:35:10 PM
The date on which 'Obamacare' was passed.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: senecadawg2 on August 20, 2012, 05:43:25 PM
I also just stumbled upon this funny bumper sticker


(https://rlv.zcache.com/george_bush_asks_do_you_miss_me_yet_bumper_sticker-p128869128758494029en8ys_400.jpg)
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: hefdaddy42 on August 20, 2012, 07:02:38 PM
(https://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i238/hefdaddy42/funny/bushdance.gif)
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Super Dude on August 20, 2012, 07:40:34 PM
Oh...my... :lol
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Sigz on August 21, 2012, 12:40:30 PM
Rep. Todd Akin - "I Misspoke—What I Meant To Say Is 'I Am Dumb As Dog Shit And I Am A Terrible Human Being'" (https://www.theonion.com/articles/i-misspokewhat-i-meant-to-say-is-i-am-dumb-as-dog,29256/?ref=auto)
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: theseoafs on August 21, 2012, 12:45:54 PM
 :lol :lol

How about this one: Pregnant woman relieved to learn her rape was illegitimate (https://www.theonion.com/articles/pregnant-woman-relieved-to-learn-her-rape-was-ille,29258/)
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Super Dude on August 21, 2012, 12:49:46 PM
Rep. Todd Akin - "I Misspoke—What I Meant To Say Is 'I Am Dumb As Dog Shit And I Am A Terrible Human Being'" (https://www.theonion.com/articles/i-misspokewhat-i-meant-to-say-is-i-am-dumb-as-dog,29256/?ref=auto)

Jokes aside, I think I heard somewhere that he did at least apologize for his comments today.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: kirksnosehair on August 21, 2012, 12:50:39 PM
Aken deserves all the backlash he is getting.  Still, this is seriously refreshing seeing how much of that backlash is coming from his fellow party members.  This is quite unusual for the GOP.  Its clearly not defensible, but still, this is some great RvR action.


You understand they're calling for him to get out of the race because of the havoc his gaffe will wreak on upticket races with incumbent Republicans fighting for their seats and not from some sense of what's right or wrong about what he said, right?


I mean, we're talking about the Republicans, who just made it their official party agenda that NO abortion should EVER happen, even under the circumstances of rape or incest.





Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: kirksnosehair on August 21, 2012, 12:53:14 PM
Rep. Todd Akin - "I Misspoke—What I Meant To Say Is 'I Am Dumb As Dog Shit And I Am A Terrible Human Being'" (https://www.theonion.com/articles/i-misspokewhat-i-meant-to-say-is-i-am-dumb-as-dog,29256/?ref=auto)

Jokes aside, I think I heard somewhere that he did at least apologize for his comments today.


And yet, his position remains that if your wife is raped by some crazed murderer or mental patient who escaped from the nuthouse she MUST bring the child to term.    That's still his stated position. 
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: theseoafs on August 21, 2012, 12:54:51 PM
Rep. Todd Akin - "I Misspoke—What I Meant To Say Is 'I Am Dumb As Dog Shit And I Am A Terrible Human Being'" (https://www.theonion.com/articles/i-misspokewhat-i-meant-to-say-is-i-am-dumb-as-dog,29256/?ref=auto)

Jokes aside, I think I heard somewhere that he did at least apologize for his comments today.

Quote from: Todd Akin
In reviewing my off-the-cuff remarks, it's clear that I misspoke in this interview and it does not reflect the deep empathy I hold for the thousands of women who are raped and abused every year.

Yeah, okay.

I mean, we're talking about the Republicans, who just made it their official party agenda that NO abortion should EVER happen, even under the circumstances of rape or incest.

Well, Wikipedia just told me that Paul Ryan and Mitt Romney both spoke out against Akin's comments, saying they're not opposed to abortion in cases of rape.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Scheavo on August 21, 2012, 12:55:44 PM
Quote
Well, Wikipedia just told me that Paul Ryan and Mitt Romney both spoke out against Akin's comments, saying they're not opposed to abortion in cases of rape.

Which, at least for Paul Ryan, is a completely new position, contrary to the one he's taken for years.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Super Dude on August 21, 2012, 01:00:01 PM
Isn't it for Romney too? I seem to remember during the primaries he, like everyone else, came out 100% against "unwarranted Federal overreach" into abortions. And I think it's incredible that this is actually a topic of debate.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: theseoafs on August 21, 2012, 01:06:40 PM
What is? Abortion?
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: kirksnosehair on August 21, 2012, 01:07:02 PM
Romney was for a woman's right to choose before he was against being for taking a position against what he used to be in favor of being against being for  :|






Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Super Dude on August 21, 2012, 01:08:41 PM
What is? Abortion?

Nope, the fact that no one can even say for certain what Romney's stances are on anything. :lol
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: kirksnosehair on August 21, 2012, 01:09:17 PM
Well, Wikipedia just told me that Paul Ryan and Mitt Romney both spoke out against Akin's comments, saying they're not opposed to abortion in cases of rape.


That's very nice.  So Mitt Romney, a 60-something year old man wants to control the uterus of every woman in the United States of America  :tup


Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Scheavo on August 21, 2012, 02:14:05 PM
They're both in favor of a person hood amendment, at least the latest reincarnation of Mitt is.

Which is sorta contradictory to the idea that you can have an abortion if there's a rape. Rape justifies murder? Or something?

It's pretty clear they're just throwing out whatever they think they need to to stay afloat. It reminds me of the McCain campaign, except the McCain campaign seems principled compared to the Romney catastrophe.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: XJDenton on August 21, 2012, 03:53:50 PM
https://www.theonion.com/articles/republicans-condemn-akins-comments-as-blemish-on-p,29259/
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: theseoafs on August 21, 2012, 04:13:51 PM
And now for some more objective, serious journalism (https://www.deathandtaxesmag.com/187415/mitt-romney-and-paul-ryan-is-an-anagram-for-my-ultimate-ayn-rand-porn/)
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: theseoafs on August 21, 2012, 08:18:50 PM
It's kind of old news, but has anyone else heard of this "until abortion ends" trend?  It's a "movement" of sorts that encourages people, usually teens, to give up something they enjoy (soda, coffee, iPod, Skittles, etc.) until abortion is illegalized.  Any thoughts?
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: rumborak on August 21, 2012, 08:22:43 PM
I don't see what one thing has to do with the other.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: theseoafs on August 21, 2012, 08:25:52 PM
From what I can understand, nothing whatsoever.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on August 21, 2012, 08:32:58 PM
Sounds like the sort of people that I'd love to see be miserable. I support this movement.   :tup
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Sigz on August 21, 2012, 08:49:05 PM
Yeah, that makes no sense. Like, unless you're hunger striking or something like that, why would anyone else care what you're *not* using?
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Super Dude on August 21, 2012, 08:52:41 PM
Maybe I'm reading the post wrong, but I thought the point was to impose those restrictions on teens, and somehow that'll convince them that abortion is wrong.

A potentially entertaining set of factors, regardless.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: theseoafs on August 21, 2012, 08:56:56 PM
No, the idea is that you come up with something that you want to give up, like for your New Year's resolution.  Then you post a video on Youtube detailing your sacrifice and show it off to all your friends to show how strong and political you are.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on August 21, 2012, 09:38:46 PM
Yeah, that makes no sense. Like, unless you're hunger striking or something like that, why would anyone else care what you're *not* using?
This is what I'd really like to see.  Everybody who feels that strongly about something that doesn't actually affect them should starve themselves.  I'll support them in their endeavor. 
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Super Dude on August 21, 2012, 10:14:56 PM
No, the idea is that you come up with something that you want to give up, like for your New Year's resolution.  Then you post a video on Youtube detailing your sacrifice and show it off to all your friends to show how strong and political you are.

I have never been so thankful for the existence of Youtube trolls in my life.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: hefdaddy42 on August 22, 2012, 04:59:41 AM
Sounds like the sort of people that I'd love to see be miserable. I support this movement.   :tup
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: soundgarden on August 22, 2012, 06:32:04 PM
Aken deserves all the backlash he is getting.  Still, this is seriously refreshing seeing how much of that backlash is coming from his fellow party members.  This is quite unusual for the GOP.  Its clearly not defensible, but still, this is some great RvR action.


You understand they're calling for him to get out of the race because of the havoc his gaffe will wreak on upticket races with incumbent Republicans fighting for their seats and not from some sense of what's right or wrong about what he said, right?


I mean, we're talking about the Republicans, who just made it their official party agenda that NO abortion should EVER happen, even under the circumstances of rape or incest.

OH I am well aware of that.  In fact, i have more respect for Aken for being honest.  Whatever the reason or source; the fact remains is Republicans going after Republicans and its nice to see.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Scheavo on August 23, 2012, 03:28:14 PM
So, if a Hurricane does fall on the Republican National Convention, will that be God making a statement? I mean, he flooded New Orleans because of the gays and partying, right?
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: rumborak on August 23, 2012, 03:58:53 PM
I was wondering the same thing actually. :lol
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: snapple on August 23, 2012, 07:43:44 PM
So, if a Hurricane does fall on the Republican National Convention, will that be God making a statement? I mean, he flooded New Orleans because of the gays and partying, right?

......because the guy who said that didn't get completely shunned by many right wingers for saying that?
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Scheavo on August 23, 2012, 09:10:00 PM
So, if a Hurricane does fall on the Republican National Convention, will that be God making a statement? I mean, he flooded New Orleans because of the gays and partying, right?

......because the guy who said that didn't get completely shunned by many right wingers for saying that?

Did I ever say it was every Republican who said that? Nope. But the guy who said it supports Republicans.

As it turns out, there might be a hurricane to hit North Carolina during the Democratic convention. That would really be awesome.

Won't know though, I have the great fortune of being in the Grand Canyon for 3 weeks, so I'll get to miss all this insanity.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Tick on August 24, 2012, 05:58:19 AM
I love that ABC has a 3 part special on Mormonism right now. Nice. Where were they in 08 when Obama was running? I missed the special on Rev Wright and Obama's Christian faith?

At least Romney is genuine in his convictions and doesn't make them up for gain.
Unlike Obama. Lets face it, Obama is just an Atheist pretending to be a Christian for whatever reason. All I ever see him do is mock Christianity and its values. You ain't fooling anyone. Oh wait, yes you are.

People love to say Obama is really a Muslim. Nope. No way. Obama is way too Narcissistic to worship any supreme being since he hails himself as a god and savior.

I know 95% of this board is liberal and drinks the Obama kool aid but the media blows. A 3 part special on Mormonism. Really? :facepalm:

Have a nice day.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: theseoafs on August 24, 2012, 07:38:42 AM
All I ever see him do is mock Christianity and its values.

When was that, again?
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Nick on August 24, 2012, 07:48:36 AM
Lets face it, Obama is just an Atheist pretending to be a Christian

In that case I'd call him a man of the people, since that's what I'd say most Americans are.

And I love it that you're calling Obama fake and then supporting Romney, who even amongst politicians has shown himself to be one of the least principled, say whatever he needs to, chameleon flip flopping jackasses ever to parade himself around the country.

I'll give you this, of all things he actually has stuck by his Mormon faith, which is hilarious to me because of all the things he has ever claimed to believe in, that is the last one I'd like him to cling to.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Tick on August 24, 2012, 08:09:14 AM
All I ever see him do is mock Christianity and its values.

When was that, again?
Didn't he mock Christians saying they stick to there guns? He is very arrogant in his tone all too often.
 I don't expect many here to agree because you guys think the guy is doing a good job while more and more people slip into poverty.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Tick on August 24, 2012, 08:09:56 AM
Lets face it, Obama is just an Atheist pretending to be a Christian

In that case I'd call him a man of the people, since that's what I'd say most Americans are.



I'd call him a fraud.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: theseoafs on August 24, 2012, 08:14:46 AM
All I ever see him do is mock Christianity and its values.

When was that, again?
Didn't he mock Christians saying they stick to there guns? He is very arrogant in his tone all too often.
 I don't expect many here to agree because you guys think the guy is doing a good job while more and more people slip into poverty.

You said that all you ever see him do is mock Christianity and its values.

When I asked you to produce an example of that mockery (which shouldn't have been hard given that he does it all the time), you brought up something vague that doesn't even sound insulting to Christians and which you don't even seem to be sure happened.

Okay.

I'd call him a fraud.

(https://cdn.theatlanticwire.com/img/upload/2012/06/26/Screen_Shot_2012-06-26_at_8.50.14_AM/large.png)

I would too.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on August 24, 2012, 08:15:46 AM
Considering that the only thing most Americans know about Mormonism is that they practice bigamy and like to fuck little kids, I'd say that ABC might actually be doing him a huge favor. 
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Scheavo on August 24, 2012, 08:19:55 AM
All I ever see him do is mock Christianity and its values.

When was that, again?
Didn't he mock Christians saying they stick to there guns?

Um, no... he didn't say Christians do that, not at all.

Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: theseoafs on August 24, 2012, 08:24:43 AM
Isn't it a good thing if somebody "sticks to their guns"?  That's a compliment, isn't it?  It just means you don't, ahem, flip-flop on issues.

Why is Tick upset about the Mormonism special, now?  It's a religion few Americans know very much about, but which has been in the media much more lately thanks to Romney and the Book of Mormon and all those "I'm a Mormon" commercials.  The timing makes sense; it isn't political.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Tick on August 24, 2012, 08:26:30 AM
All I ever see him do is mock Christianity and its values.

When was that, again?
Didn't he mock Christians saying they stick to there guns?

Um, no... he didn't say Christians do that, not at all.
He did.
He said that some voters are "clinging to their guns and religion."
whether you like what he said or not, it was a condescending remark.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Tick on August 24, 2012, 08:29:14 AM
Isn't it a good thing if somebody "sticks to their guns"?  That's a compliment, isn't it?  It just means you don't, ahem, flip-flop on issues.

Why is Tick upset about the Mormonism special, now?  It's a religion few Americans know very much about, but which has been in the media much more lately thanks to Romney and the Book of Mormon and all those "I'm a Mormon" commercials.  The timing makes sense; it isn't political.
I do not agree with you. Its politically motivated to tear down Romney. That's my opinion.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on August 24, 2012, 08:38:12 AM
Isn't it a good thing if somebody "sticks to their guns"?  That's a compliment, isn't it?  It just means you don't, ahem, flip-flop on issues.

Why is Tick upset about the Mormonism special, now?  It's a religion few Americans know very much about, but which has been in the media much more lately thanks to Romney and the Book of Mormon and all those "I'm a Mormon" commercials.  The timing makes sense; it isn't political.
I do not agree with you. Its politically motivated to tear down Romney. That's my opinion.
Way to stick to your guns, Tick.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Scheavo on August 24, 2012, 08:48:55 AM
All I ever see him do is mock Christianity and its values.

When was that, again?
Didn't he mock Christians saying they stick to there guns?

Um, no... he didn't say Christians do that, not at all.
He did.
He said that some voters are "clinging to their guns and religion."
whether you like what he said or not, it was a condescending remark.

That's not saying Christians stick to their guns.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Tick on August 24, 2012, 08:53:25 AM
All I ever see him do is mock Christianity and its values.

When was that, again?
Didn't he mock Christians saying they stick to there guns?

Um, no... he didn't say Christians do that, not at all.
He did.
He said that some voters are "clinging to their guns and religion."
whether you like what he said or not, it was a condescending remark.

That's not saying Christians stick to their guns.
Ok. Clarified.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: rumborak on August 24, 2012, 08:57:16 AM
Obama is as much a fraud when it comes to Christianity as about 80% of all self-proclaimed Christians, the ones finding themselves once in church on December 25th.
And if some people feel the need to give him shit on trying to emphasize the fact that his job is representing people, not gods, eh so be it then. People will find anything I guess.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: kirksnosehair on August 24, 2012, 09:04:41 AM
Mitt Romney is a man of character, integrity and honor.


Running for Governor of MA:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEmeHnWPbY4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEmeHnWPbY4)




2012: Will become the de-facto standards bearer for the Republican party.  The Republican Party that will adopt as their official party platform that abortion should be illegal in all cases.  Even if the mother will die in childbirth.  Even if she's been raped.  Or even if her own father fucked her and got her pregnant.  No abortion.  Period.  Because they believe in the sanctity of all human life. 


Except, if you commit certain crimes, well, then they're OK with offing your ass.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: eric42434224 on August 24, 2012, 09:11:43 AM
I am personally pro choice, but I can certainly see the point of view of a pro-lifer.  However, I would think that a pro-lifer, with the sanctity of a human life being paramount, would want all abortion outlawed....even in the case of rape and incest.  I have more respect for a pro-lifer to be "all-in" with their beliefs of the sancity of life.  I dont understand the view of, "Well I think abortions should be illegal because the sanctity of LIFE is more important than ANYTHING...except for scenario A, B, C, a side of D, and an extra scoop of E."
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: kirksnosehair on August 24, 2012, 09:15:21 AM
I am personally pro choice, but I can certainly see the point of view of a pro-lifer.  However, I would think that a pro-lifer, with the sanctity of a human life being paramount, would want all abortion outlawed....even in the case of rape and incest.  I have more respect for a pro-lifer to be "all-in" with their beliefs of the sancity of life.  I dont understand the view of, "Well I think abortions should be illegal because the sanctity of LIFE is more important than ANYTHING...except for scenario A, B, C, a side of D, and an extra scoop of E."


The "Sanctity of Life" argument is fine, IF it's consistent.  Unfortunately, with the vast majority of Republicans, it's not.  Otherwise, they would drop the Death Penalty from their platform.  It makes them raging, throbbing, massive hypocrites.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: antigoon on August 24, 2012, 09:17:48 AM
I mean, I think it can be assumed that most of them mean innocent life, even if they don't say it.

Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: eric42434224 on August 24, 2012, 09:19:40 AM
I mean, I think it can be assumed that most of them mean innocent life, even if they don't say it.

Isnt every unborn child an innocent life?  Then why say it is OK the have abortions under certain conditions like rape and incest?
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: antigoon on August 24, 2012, 09:25:08 AM
No I agree, I was referring to KNH's point about the death penalty.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: kirksnosehair on August 24, 2012, 09:26:01 AM
I mean, I think it can be assumed that most of them mean innocent life, even if they don't say it.

Isnt every unborn child an innocent life?  Then why say it is OK the have abortions under certain conditions like rape and incest?


Er, the official Republican Party platform does NOT make any allowances for abortion, period.  In fact, they're calling for a constitutional amendment to ban it 100% in all cases.


And yes, the plank does define the sanctity as limited to "innocent" life, but I find that to be a weakass method of just having it both ways.


All human life is either sacred or it's not sacred
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: hefdaddy42 on August 24, 2012, 09:37:43 AM
I love that ABC has a 3 part special on Mormonism right now. Nice. Where were they in 08 when Obama was running? I missed the special on Rev Wright and Obama's Christian faith?

At least Romney is genuine in his convictions and doesn't make them up for gain.
Unlike Obama. Lets face it, Obama is just an Atheist pretending to be a Christian for whatever reason. All I ever see him do is mock Christianity and its values. You ain't fooling anyone. Oh wait, yes you are.

People love to say Obama is really a Muslim. Nope. No way. Obama is way too Narcissistic to worship any supreme being since he hails himself as a god and savior.

I know 95% of this board is liberal and drinks the Obama kool aid but the media blows. A 3 part special on Mormonism. Really? :facepalm:

Have a nice day.
WTF
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: antigoon on August 24, 2012, 09:52:39 AM
https://www.theonion.com/articles/nation-celebrates-full-week-without-deadly-mass-sh,29293/
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Tick on August 24, 2012, 09:53:01 AM
I love that ABC has a 3 part special on Mormonism right now. Nice. Where were they in 08 when Obama was running? I missed the special on Rev Wright and Obama's Christian faith?

At least Romney is genuine in his convictions and doesn't make them up for gain.
Unlike Obama. Lets face it, Obama is just an Atheist pretending to be a Christian for whatever reason. All I ever see him do is mock Christianity and its values. You ain't fooling anyone. Oh wait, yes you are.

People love to say Obama is really a Muslim. Nope. No way. Obama is way too Narcissistic to worship any supreme being since he hails himself as a god and savior.

I know 95% of this board is liberal and drinks the Obama kool aid but the media blows. A 3 part special on Mormonism. Really? :facepalm:

Have a nice day.
WTF
Whatever.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on August 24, 2012, 12:12:27 PM
https://www.theonion.com/articles/nation-celebrates-full-week-without-deadly-mass-sh,29293/

UPDATE:  Never mind   :rollin

As for the sanctity of life bullshit, isn't an underlying premise of their beliefs that nobody's innocent?  I thought that we were all sinners, which would have to include whatever the foetus would eventually become.  As the wise man once said, your birth certificate is proof of guilt.  Insofar as capital punishment goes,  it seems to me that the problem isn't the guilty or lack of innocence, but denying one the ability to atone and make up for his actions.  In fact, I thought that was the whole rationale behind all that judge not bullshit that Jesus went on about.   
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Super Dude on August 24, 2012, 12:39:43 PM
No I agree, I was referring to KNH's point about the death penalty.

And I guess po' folks aren't innocent souls either, then. :biggrin:
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: theseoafs on August 24, 2012, 03:01:48 PM
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/bill-maher/todd-akin-republicans_b_1826617.html
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: rumborak on August 24, 2012, 03:09:04 PM
That's actually pretty accurate.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Tick on August 25, 2012, 01:46:52 PM
*BREAKING NEWS*

The Spaghetti Monster has been eaten! :omg:

(https://i548.photobucket.com/albums/ii324/jawkjaw/double%20s%20pro/Hulk2BHogan2Bpastamania-1.jpg)
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: theseoafs on August 25, 2012, 09:58:12 PM
Are you talking about the Flying Spaghetti Monster?  If so, I'd take down that picture.  It is wildly offensive to Pastafarians.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Tick on August 26, 2012, 06:27:44 AM
Are you talking about the Flying Spaghetti Monster?  If so, I'd take down that picture.  It is wildly offensive to Pastafarians.
:lol fuuny!
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Nick on August 27, 2012, 12:58:38 PM
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/bill-maher/todd-akin-republicans_b_1826617.html

One point in there I very much disagree with, and I'd love to share that on facebook, but there is backlash from religious family I simply can't afford to chance it.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Sigz on August 27, 2012, 01:46:31 PM
Things That Shouldn't Be Said In Modern Society To Be Said At Least 1,400 Times At RNC (https://www.theonion.com/articles/things-that-shouldnt-be-said-in-modern-society-to,29336/)

Quote
Throughout the three-day event, as the GOP unveils its 2012 platform and formally nominates its presidential ticket, experts predict words and phrases pertaining to science, health, and justice that are entirely unbefitting 21st-century human civilization will, on average, be voiced every 40 seconds from the podium at the Tampa Bay Times Forum.

...

In stark contrast, scholars noted, several hundred things that desperately needed to be said in modern society would be uttered throughout next week’s Democratic National Convention by gutless speakers who would not possess anything remotely close to the strength or resolve needed to act on them
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: j on August 27, 2012, 07:05:05 PM
Circumcision thread is apparently gone, but I found this interesting.  I'd like to see the details of that report.

https://health.yahoo.net/news/s/ap/circumcision-pluses-outweigh-risks-pediatricians

-J
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Super Dude on August 27, 2012, 08:02:03 PM
Unsurprisingly, intense partisanship over the past four years has created in me an extreme distaste for politics in general (I know that doesn't seem like the case given my post content here, but it's true). This is the sorta story that keeps me going:

https://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/27/opinion/keller-the-last-bipartisan.html?_r=1&hp
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: j on August 27, 2012, 08:17:23 PM
Unsurprisingly, intense partisanship over the past four years has created in me an extreme distaste for politics in general

Join us, SD!  :xbones

That is a great story though, I've heard of Wyden before.

-J
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Super Dude on August 27, 2012, 08:28:53 PM
Oh don't get me wrong, my views are still pretty liberal, like my environmentalism and whatnot (save the Israel issue, where I'm decidedly more centrist). I just feel like we've gotten to a point of truly intractable gridlock in this country. There's no such thing as a moderate anymore, and it sickens me.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Riceball on August 27, 2012, 10:50:08 PM
SD has your mum (mom, sorry) ever been to Australia? This statement could have come from my fingers, too

Quote
Unsurprisingly, intense partisanship over the past four years has created in me an extreme distaste for politics in general (I know that doesn't seem like the case given my post content here, but it's true).
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Super Dude on August 28, 2012, 05:36:22 AM
Err....what?? :lol

No, no one from my family to my knowledge has ever been to Straya. Why do you ask?
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Riceball on August 28, 2012, 05:46:23 PM
...we could be related...

 :biggrin:
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Super Dude on August 28, 2012, 06:02:44 PM
Bwuh???
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Riceball on August 28, 2012, 06:13:01 PM
SD has your mum (mom, sorry) ever been to Australia? This statement could have come from my fingers, too

Quote
Unsurprisingly, intense partisanship over the past four years has created in me an extreme distaste for politics in general (I know that doesn't seem like the case given my post content here, but it's true).
We both have an interest in politics, yet a desire to avoid it because of the ridiculousness of the past four-five years.

Clearly we aren't related..otherwise you would have got that lame joke the first time round :smiley:
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Super Dude on August 28, 2012, 06:15:00 PM
Clearly.... :lol
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Sigz on August 29, 2012, 03:20:24 PM
Obama's currently doing an AMA on reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/z1c9z/i_am_barack_obama_president_of_the_united_states/

(https://puu.sh/105Pl)

 :lol awesome.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: snapple on August 29, 2012, 03:37:23 PM
le awesome XDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD

I hate reddit.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Sigz on August 29, 2012, 03:38:50 PM
Reddit's a perfectly fine site once you ignore the frontpaged sites and only read the smaller specialized subs.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: snapple on August 29, 2012, 03:40:04 PM
Reddit's a perfectly fine site once you ignore the frontpaged sites and only read the smaller specialized subs.

My question for Obama

@BarackObama how do you feel about posting on a site that has deliberately posted child pornography on other sites?
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Sigz on August 29, 2012, 03:42:34 PM
 ::)
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: snapple on August 29, 2012, 03:44:27 PM
::)

As someone who has unfortunately seen some of the shit they do, I'm afraid the eye roll is completely off base and you clearly have no idea what that website does.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: theseoafs on August 29, 2012, 03:45:56 PM
From Obama's last post on the AMA:

"...Speaking of balance, though, I need to get going so I'm back in DC in time for dinner. But I want to thank everybody at reddit for participating - this is an example of how technology and the internet can empower the sorts of conversations that strengthen our democracy over the long run. AND REMEMBER TO VOTE IN NOVEMBER - if you need to know how to register, go to Gottaregister.com. By the way, if you want to know what I think about this whole reddit experience - NOT BAD!"

 :lol :lol
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: snapple on August 29, 2012, 03:47:38 PM
So he's okay with posting CP? What'a guy*





*i don't actually believe he's okay with posting CP. but, he shouldn't be giving any of those idiots the time of day
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Sigz on August 29, 2012, 03:49:22 PM
::)

As someone who has unfortunately seen some of the shit they do, I'm afraid the eye roll is completely off base and you clearly have no idea what that website does.

No, I know exactly the kind of fucked up shit that has gone on on reddit. However, for a site that saw 34 million unique visitors in one month (https://blog.reddit.com/2012/01/2-billion-beyond.html) and has several million registered users, casting any kind of judgement on the entire site like that is just silly. It's like judging an entire city because of the criminal activities of some its citizens.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: snapple on August 29, 2012, 03:52:37 PM
Doesn't matter. I'm sure CP isn't the only other illegal thing that can be associated with members of reddit. I'm not saying the site I am on is any better. But the people at least don't pretend to be.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: theseoafs on August 29, 2012, 03:54:11 PM
Snapple, you, being a member of Reddit (as evidenced by the question you posted), must also be engaged in the collection and distribution of child pornography, n'est-ce pas?
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: snapple on August 29, 2012, 03:54:38 PM
Snapple, you, being a member of Reddit (as evidenced by the question you posted), must also be engaged in the collection and distribution of child pornography, n'est-ce pas?

that was from twitter, not reddit.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: theseoafs on August 29, 2012, 03:54:55 PM
DAMN I THOUGHT I HAD YOU
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: snapple on August 29, 2012, 03:55:49 PM
DAMN I THOUGHT I HAD YOU

(https://tomschreck.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/108406-logo.jpg)
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: lonestar on August 29, 2012, 03:59:49 PM
I loved this one....

(https://i1163.photobucket.com/albums/q554/oskirules/obamaama.png)


 :rollin
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on August 29, 2012, 04:46:30 PM
Snapple, you, being a member of Reddit (as evidenced by the question you posted), must also be engaged in the collection and distribution of child pornography, n'est-ce pas?

that was from twitter, not reddit.


::)

As someone who has unfortunately seen some of the shit they do, I'm afraid the eye roll is completely off base and you clearly have no idea what that website does.
So apparently it was Twitter who was allowing you to see naughty pictures.  I trust you've cancelled your Twitter account now.  You should also boycott WikiP, since Wikicommons had issues with people uploading CP.  To be honest, I'd probably go ahead and cancel my internet service altogether, if I were you.  Can't be too safe, ya know. 
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: snapple on August 29, 2012, 04:48:36 PM
Barto, if you'd like, I can PM ya. But I can't say it here.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on August 29, 2012, 04:53:15 PM
Huh.  I have no idea if you're wanting to mention a website, or insult me and/or my heritage.   :lol
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: snapple on August 29, 2012, 04:54:32 PM
Huh.  I have no idea if you're wanting to mention a website, or insult me and/or my heritage.   :lol

Well, if your post was pure sarcasm, I wouldn't waste our time/the site's bandwidth. However, if you wanted an explanation, I could gladly send you one.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on August 29, 2012, 05:27:25 PM
Nah, it was mostly sarcasm.   :biggrin:

I was serious, though, about trying to hold something generally good to the fire because of what might happen via it's users.  From what I read on the matter (I was completely unaware of the controversy until you mentioned it), they were trying to walk an line between free speech and abettance.  They reported clearly illegal material to the NCMEC, and tried to stay out of gray areas.  This is exactly what I would expect of them. 

I was also serious about there being more egregious offenders out there.  If you're upset about jailbait pictures on Reddit, you should be absolutely mortified by AIM, Stickcam and the like. 
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: XJDenton on August 29, 2012, 05:41:52 PM
I have come to the sudden realisation that the "g" in agnostic should really be silent, since its opposite is gnostic.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Nick on August 29, 2012, 09:27:01 PM
Although I see a reason to disagree with one of the basic tenets of the piece, the bit Samantha Bee did tonight at the Republican convention was hilarious and awesome. I'll post tomorrow night when The Daily Show posts it.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: theseoafs on August 29, 2012, 09:30:24 PM
Although I see a reason to disagree with one of the basic tenets of the piece, the bit Samantha Bee did tonight at the Republican convention was hilarious and awesome. I'll post tomorrow night when The Daily Show posts it.

Yep, that was awesome.  It's literally unbelievable the stuff she was able to make those poor republicans say. :lol
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Super Dude on August 29, 2012, 09:34:54 PM
I totally missed it. I'll be waiting for that post.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: hefdaddy42 on August 30, 2012, 04:52:40 AM
I totally missed it. I'll be waiting for that post.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: GuineaPig on August 30, 2012, 11:40:58 AM
So I'm in Switzerland right now, and everywhere I go and everything I experience makes me despair about the way North America approaches urban planning and land use.

Just for example, I was in the station in Visp waiting for a transfer and they made a special announcement because a train was *gasp* going to be four minutes late.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: theseoafs on August 30, 2012, 11:43:56 AM
Here's that Daily Show link, by the way: https://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/wed-august-29-2012/rnc-2012---the-road-to-jeb-bush-2016---the-republican-platform
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Super Dude on August 30, 2012, 11:50:02 AM
So I'm in Switzerland right now, and everywhere I go and everything I experience makes me despair about the way North America approaches urban planning and land use.

Just for example, I was in the station in Visp waiting for a transfer and they made a special announcement because a train was *gasp* going to be four minutes late.

Well obviously Nazi Communists make sure the trains always run on time.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on August 30, 2012, 11:52:43 AM
So I'm in Switzerland right now, and everywhere I go and everything I experience makes me despair about the way North America approaches urban planning and land use.

Just for example, I was in the station in Visp waiting for a transfer and they made a special announcement because a train was *gasp* going to be four minutes late.
Don't know where you're heading, Interlaken would be my guess, but you're real close to a little town called Kandersteg.  It's about midway between Visp and Interlaken.  While I found Interlaken to be mediocre at best, Kandersteg might be the most spectacular place on Earth.  If you're going to be staying in the area, it's worth a day trip so you can hike your way up to the lake.  It's only about 20 minutes from either end (although you have to transfer in Spiez).

If you're in Visp, you probably arrived via the Glacier Express.  What'd ya think?
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Super Dude on August 30, 2012, 12:09:17 PM
Although I see a reason to disagree with one of the basic tenets of the piece, the bit Samantha Bee did tonight at the Republican convention was hilarious and awesome. I'll post tomorrow night when The Daily Show posts it.

I'm curious, what basic tenet was that?
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: theseoafs on August 30, 2012, 12:17:23 PM
Yeah, I was wondering that too. 
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: GuineaPig on August 30, 2012, 12:32:01 PM
So I'm in Switzerland right now, and everywhere I go and everything I experience makes me despair about the way North America approaches urban planning and land use.

Just for example, I was in the station in Visp waiting for a transfer and they made a special announcement because a train was *gasp* going to be four minutes late.
Don't know where you're heading, Interlaken would be my guess, but you're real close to a little town called Kandersteg.  It's about midway between Visp and Interlaken.  While I found Interlaken to be mediocre at best, Kandersteg might be the most spectacular place on Earth.  If you're going to be staying in the area, it's worth a day trip so you can hike your way up to the lake.  It's only about 20 minutes from either end (although you have to transfer in Spiez).

If you're in Visp, you probably arrived via the Glacier Express.  What'd ya think?

I'm in Zermatt right now for a little bit, but am heading to Interlaken in a couple of days.  I'm planning on using it as more of a base camp for day trips rather than a location of itself.  Kandersteg's already on the list.

I didn't get to Visp via the Glacier Express though; I was coming east from Chamonix.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on August 30, 2012, 01:09:15 PM
So I'm in Switzerland right now, and everywhere I go and everything I experience makes me despair about the way North America approaches urban planning and land use.

Just for example, I was in the station in Visp waiting for a transfer and they made a special announcement because a train was *gasp* going to be four minutes late.
Don't know where you're heading, Interlaken would be my guess, but you're real close to a little town called Kandersteg.  It's about midway between Visp and Interlaken.  While I found Interlaken to be mediocre at best, Kandersteg might be the most spectacular place on Earth.  If you're going to be staying in the area, it's worth a day trip so you can hike your way up to the lake.  It's only about 20 minutes from either end (although you have to transfer in Spiez).

If you're in Visp, you probably arrived via the Glacier Express.  What'd ya think?

I'm in Zermatt right now for a little bit, but am heading to Interlaken in a couple of days.  I'm planning on using it as more of a base camp for day trips rather than a location of itself.  Kandersteg's already on the list.

I didn't get to Visp via the Glacier Express though; I was coming east from Chamonix.
Don't know what kinda shape you're in, but if I had it to do again, I'd take the gondola up to Oeschinen and then hike back down.  I did it the reverse when I was there, and was pretty beat and out of water by the time I got to the lake.  Still, the hike up there is pretty cool.  Once you get up there and start hiking the North side of the lake, you'll find lots of nifty wood carvings tucked away along the trail.  I don't remember the backstory, but I believe there was a competition of sorts.  Makes for an interesting walk trying to find them all. 

The Glacier Express was pretty cool, but the Bernina Express was much better.  More interesting scenery tucked into a trip half the time.  Add to that, it runs to the Italian side of the Alps, which is pretty nifty.  Just as scenic, but more temperate. 
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: hefdaddy42 on August 30, 2012, 07:57:35 PM
Here's that Daily Show link, by the way: https://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/wed-august-29-2012/rnc-2012---the-road-to-jeb-bush-2016---the-republican-platform
:lol
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Nick on August 30, 2012, 08:43:14 PM
Thanks for the link Oafs, had just gotten around to thinking about that now. :tup

Although I see a reason to disagree with one of the basic tenets of the piece, the bit Samantha Bee did tonight at the Republican convention was hilarious and awesome. I'll post tomorrow night when The Daily Show posts it.

I'm curious, what basic tenet was that?

That it's completely hypocritical what some people believe when it comes to personal liberty and abortion. While I'm not passing judgment on the viewpoint one way or another, if you are of the opinion that life begins at conception then there are two people involved in the abortion debate, and not just the mother. At the same time I find it quite silly when people say exceptions should be made only for rape or incest, because it's either a life or it isn't, the cause does not change the outcome in that instance.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Super Dude on August 30, 2012, 08:52:30 PM
GRAARGH this is one of those times I wish I hadn't resold my Intro to Ethics book to my university bookstore (not least because of the piss poor buyback price). There was a spectacular section dedicated entirely to abortion, with arguments hailing from both sides of the debate, but they were arguments that very clearly departed from the "when does it become a life?" argument. Personally I find those arguments more compelling because at least those can be reasoned out; the life-at-conception argument is entirely a matter of opinion, since pro-lifers tend to discard the scientific answer.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: XJDenton on September 01, 2012, 07:27:09 PM
Purely hypothetical question: when does presidential succession using the 25th kick in? Is it after election or after assuming office?
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Sigz on September 01, 2012, 10:20:44 PM
It's after the inauguration, not the election.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on September 01, 2012, 10:21:08 PM
Purely hypothetical question: when does presidential succession using the 25th kick in? Is it after election or after assuming office?
If I understand your question, it's after he takes office on January 20.  There's actually a third date in there, as well.  Between the election and the end of the sitting president's term is the electoral college vote, which is when the newly elected officially becomes president elect.  Regardless, if Obama falls victim to a bad can of tuna in December after losing to Myth, which I assume is what you were getting at, then we'd get an even lamer duck President Biden for a few weeks. 
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: hefdaddy42 on September 02, 2012, 05:03:14 AM
Paul Ryan Cuts $120 Million In Wasteful Spending From Romney Campaign (https://www.theonion.com/articles/paul-ryan-cuts-120-million-in-wasteful-spending-fr,29396/)
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Super Dude on September 02, 2012, 05:16:08 AM
Paul Ryan Cuts $120 Million In Wasteful Spending From Romney Campaign (https://www.theonion.com/articles/paul-ryan-cuts-120-million-in-wasteful-spending-fr,29396/)

If only.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: theseoafs on September 02, 2012, 08:37:31 AM
"Really?  $120 million?  Well, I have to say, that's pretty coo... Oh."
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: theseoafs on September 04, 2012, 06:04:00 AM
https://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/borowitzreport/2012/09/ryan-calls-nomination-greatest-triumph-since-winning-tour-de-france.html
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: MondayMorningLunatic on September 04, 2012, 09:29:55 AM
Obamacare in one sentence:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdnY8r7_fLw&feature=g-all-lik
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Sigz on September 04, 2012, 10:15:52 AM
https://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/borowitzreport/2012/09/ryan-calls-nomination-greatest-triumph-since-winning-tour-de-france.html

what.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: theseoafs on September 04, 2012, 10:26:07 AM
https://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/borowitzreport/2012/09/ryan-calls-nomination-greatest-triumph-since-winning-tour-de-france.html

what.
^satire
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Tick on September 05, 2012, 09:54:07 AM
(https://capitolcommentary.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/576091_10150943934680911_794114471_n.jpg)
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: theseoafs on September 09, 2012, 09:17:45 PM
(https://atheistpictures.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/FSM-win.png)
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: theseoafs on September 12, 2012, 06:59:42 PM
https://www.facebook.com/DalaiLama/posts/10151052842097616

Hell yes.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Super Dude on September 12, 2012, 07:11:34 PM
That's really fantastic.

But weird to hear from what is arguably a religious leader (in b4 Buddhism is not a religion).
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Adami on September 12, 2012, 07:14:28 PM
That's really fantastic.

But weird to hear from what is arguably a religious leader (in b4 Buddhism is not a religion).

Well Buddhism isn't a religion. And even if it were, his version of Buddhism is even further away from a religion and is much closer to the whole new age stuff. So if anything, he is a "spiritual" leader. And I put spiritual in quotes because I don't have a large amount of respect for his group from a Buddhist perspective.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: j on September 12, 2012, 07:18:41 PM
GRAARGH this is one of those times I wish I hadn't resold my Intro to Ethics book to my university bookstore (not least because of the piss poor buyback price). There was a spectacular section dedicated entirely to abortion, with arguments hailing from both sides of the debate, but they were arguments that very clearly departed from the "when does it become a life?" argument. Personally I find those arguments more compelling because at least those can be reasoned out; the life-at-conception argument is entirely a matter of opinion, since pro-lifers tend to discard the scientific answer.

 ??? They shouldn't, because it happens to be the only thing that is clearly on their side.  That one aspect is not a matter of opinion at all; rather clear cut developmental biology in fact.

Despite that error, I agree with you that arguments that address the issue from other angles (social ones, in particular) are far more interesting, and can make an otherwise boring issue fun to talk about.

-J
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Super Dude on September 12, 2012, 07:22:16 PM
That's really fantastic.

But weird to hear from what is arguably a religious leader (in b4 Buddhism is not a religion).

Well Buddhism isn't a religion. And even if it were, his version of Buddhism is even further away from a religion and is much closer to the whole new age stuff. So if anything, he is a "spiritual" leader. And I put spiritual in quotes because I don't have a large amount of respect for his group from a Buddhist perspective.

I have no idea what you're talking about, being pretty uninformed on the topic, so go ahead and spill if you'd like.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Adami on September 12, 2012, 07:23:43 PM
That's really fantastic.

But weird to hear from what is arguably a religious leader (in b4 Buddhism is not a religion).

Well Buddhism isn't a religion. And even if it were, his version of Buddhism is even further away from a religion and is much closer to the whole new age stuff. So if anything, he is a "spiritual" leader. And I put spiritual in quotes because I don't have a large amount of respect for his group from a Buddhist perspective.

I have no idea what you're talking about, being pretty uninformed on the topic, so go ahead and spill if you'd like.

.....do you have a lot of respect for ultra ultra reformed jewish sects? You know the kind who have shabbat services with choirs and electricity etc?
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Super Dude on September 12, 2012, 07:26:44 PM
I can't exactly see where you're going with this, but my truthful answer is I'm indifferent. I think they're weird but they don't bother me so I have no reason to disrespect them.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Adami on September 12, 2012, 07:28:35 PM
I can't exactly see where you're going with this, but my truthful answer is I'm indifferent. I think they're weird but they don't bother me so I have no reason to disrespect them.

Ah, well it's pretty difficult to explain. I have no negative feelings toward them, I just don't think highly of them. To me his group of people are to Buddhism what someone like Madonna is to Kaballah or something.


Well maybe not that bad, but you get the idea.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Super Dude on September 12, 2012, 07:51:34 PM
I dunno, again, I don't really follow it. And something tells me annoying American hippie douches have more to do with that image than he does himself.

This guy:

(https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-nAHMHRgDl64/TZqniQbnGYI/AAAAAAAAAAY/1fLWgm7zVS0/s1600/aging_hippie_liberal_douche.jpg)
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: theseoafs on September 12, 2012, 07:53:59 PM
Yeah, I hate that fuckin guy.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Adami on September 12, 2012, 07:58:02 PM
My feelings toward Mahayana Buddhism (and it's off shoots) aside, the Lama is still not a religious leader.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Super Dude on September 12, 2012, 07:59:14 PM
If by that you mean because Buddhism is not a religion, yes. But he did get his title through inheritance, right? Well not inheritance, but you know what I mean.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Adami on September 12, 2012, 08:00:41 PM
If by that you mean because Buddhism is not a religion, yes. But he did get his title through inheritance, right? Well not inheritance, but you know what I mean.

In a strange sense, sure. But him not liking religion still isn't too different than any other philosopher or new age guru not liking religion.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Super Dude on September 12, 2012, 08:05:51 PM
Yeah, although he's used his station in the way a lot of religious leaders do, including politically. I dunno, too many fuzzy edges to conveniently categorize his place in Buddhism. Which is not a religion but whose individual actors often act like it is.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Adami on September 12, 2012, 08:08:05 PM
Yeah, although he's used his station in the way a lot of religious leaders do, including politically. I dunno, too many fuzzy edges to conveniently categorize his place in Buddhism. Which is not a religion but whose individual actors often act like it is.

Good point. I'd classify him as a political leader above all else.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Riceball on September 13, 2012, 02:37:39 AM
So the printing presses are getting fired up tonight - anyone want to wager how much they are going to spend this time around? My money is on open ended; they'll just keep buying stuff til the unemployment rate falls to six per cent.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Super Dude on September 14, 2012, 04:19:08 PM
P/R, this is for you.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/10/prussian-blue-girls-smoked-weed-stop-being-nazis_n_1662709.html
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: antigoon on September 14, 2012, 05:09:14 PM
:lol :lol :lol No fucking way!!
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on September 14, 2012, 05:33:40 PM
Full length article about it.  Seem like reasonable kids.  Even there mom seems reasonable enough.

https://www.thedaily.com/page/2011/07/17/071711-news-nazi-twins-1-6/
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Super Dude on September 14, 2012, 06:57:23 PM
I dunno, I'm still kinda skeptical. Marijuana ain't magic, but I'll tell you what: I'll believe it when I see them at an AIPAC convention performing the Israeli national anthem on-stage.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Adami on September 14, 2012, 07:09:53 PM
I knew a neo-nazi once. And she was indeed a pot head. And I guess it had enough of an effect to cause her to fall pretty hard for me.


So I guess it was the pot after all.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Super Dude on September 15, 2012, 05:22:29 AM
I'm really surprised to see on Gallup.com that economic confidence today is up by a fairly good margin from before the recession hit even. It's -19 now, and in Feb '08 it was -24.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Super Dude on September 19, 2012, 07:41:15 PM
I don't know how reputable this article's source is, but if it's true, that's sure to give a good scare:

https://thesoundandnoise.com/2012/09/14/young-persons-called-to-private-grand-jury-for-owning-books/

I know the headline sounds sensational, that's why I'd recommend actually clicking the link.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Adami on September 19, 2012, 09:04:26 PM
I don't know how reputable this article's source is, but if it's true, that's sure to give a good scare:

https://thesoundandnoise.com/2012/09/14/young-persons-called-to-private-grand-jury-for-owning-books/

I know the headline sounds sensational, that's why I'd recommend actually clicking the link.

Damn she's cute.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Super Dude on September 19, 2012, 09:05:14 PM
What's that, you're calling an anarchist hippie cute? What are you, a Communist?
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Adami on September 19, 2012, 09:05:34 PM
What's that, you're calling a goddamn dirty anarchist hippie cute? What are you, a Communist?

Well........yes and yes.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Super Dude on September 19, 2012, 09:05:57 PM
Somehow I always knew... :lol
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Adami on September 19, 2012, 09:07:07 PM
Somehow I always knew... :lol

I don't think I've ever tried to hide my intense dislike for capitalism and my love for (theoretical) communism.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Super Dude on September 19, 2012, 09:07:23 PM
I don't think you and I have ever discussed it.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Adami on September 19, 2012, 09:08:33 PM
I don't think you and I have ever discussed it.

Well come on over and we'll discuss it.



Bring the Kedem.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Super Dude on September 19, 2012, 09:10:41 PM
Ooh, getting a little frisky, are we? :eyebrows:
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Adami on September 19, 2012, 09:11:31 PM
Ooh, getting a little frisky, are we? :eyebrows:

The neighbors can see how frisky we were when I hang up my bed sheet the next day.











......too much?
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Super Dude on September 19, 2012, 09:15:57 PM
...Little bit. :lol

By the way, little realization I had the other day. See, I have these two great uncles that are university professors and steadfast socialists, and obviously Jewish. I think right-wing nutjob Americans will be a lot less afraid of Communism/Socialism/Marxism taking over the government when they realize 80% of socialists in this country look like this:

(https://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lcrsr9wqbD1qbz9meo1_500.jpg)
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on September 20, 2012, 08:07:23 AM
......too much?
Yes.  Yes it is.

I'm not horribly opposed to the grand jury process.  I haven't heard too many instances of it's abuse down here, and my dislike for prosecutors is well known.  I have a huge problem with serving a felony warrant on the girl when they knew damn well she wasn't one responsible.  The militarization of law enforcement is bullshit, and it's only getting worse.  Now they can't even ask a girl questions without blasting through her front door like imperial stormtroopers. 

Nobody ever said being a cop was a safe job.  As far as I'm concerned, the occasional shot in the face volunteer cop is a small price to pay for allowing citizens to actually be free from unnecessary police intimidation.

Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: rumborak on September 20, 2012, 08:19:38 AM
It's interesting how anarchists get prosecuted, whereas anarcho-economists run for president.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: rumborak on September 20, 2012, 02:40:52 PM
(https://www.welt.de/img/henryk-m-broder/crop109364749/9209848055-ci3x2s-w300/Protesters-hold-placards-while-they-take-part-in-an-anti-American-slogans-during-a-protest-rally-in-Lahore.jpg)

I actually agree!
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Implode on September 21, 2012, 07:34:43 PM
Silly Fox network stuff.  :lol

https://news.yahoo.com/joke-photo-fox-suggests-obama-met-pirate-194154000.html
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: rumborak on September 22, 2012, 09:49:08 AM
I wouldn't be surprised if FOX had an official photoshopper in their staff.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Super Dude on September 22, 2012, 05:51:43 PM
There must be some gamers on P/R side that'll get it:

(https://i.chzbgr.com/completestore/12/8/7/GInETsWKfUqmel2-6YzdqA2.png)
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: antigoon on September 23, 2012, 12:51:25 PM
hahaha
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Super Dude on September 23, 2012, 02:20:46 PM
There was a better version my brother was looking at on Funny Junk (that is, it didn't beat you over the head with the punchline), but I can't find it.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on September 24, 2012, 03:12:32 PM
It's annoying that Ahmadinejad can't say anything without it being being re-interpreted as "we're going to destroy Israel!"  This time it's not even Fox.  Reuter's headline: In New York, defiant Ahmadinejad says Israel will be "eliminated"

What he actually said:

Quote
"Iran has been around for the last seven, 10 thousand years. They (the Israelis) have been occupying those territories for the last 60 to 70 years, with the support and force of the Westerners. They have no roots there in history," he said, referring to the founding of the modern state of Israel in 1948.

"We do believe that they have found themselves at a dead end and they are seeking new adventures in order to escape this dead end. Iran will not be damaged with foreign bombs," Ahmadinejad said, speaking through an interpreter at his Manhattan hotel.

"We don't even count them as any part of any equation for Iran. During a historical phase, they (the Israelis) represent minimal disturbances that come into the picture and are then eliminated," he added.

While I think he's somewhat full of shit, I don't see anything particularly "disgusting, offensive and outrageous" as our State Department called it. 

edit: and I guess nobody ever set up a new Israel thread.  For some reason, I feel inadequate to do so. 
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Adami on September 24, 2012, 03:13:58 PM
Iran doesn't shut up about Israel because they likely can't find another way to keep their country together.

Israel doesn't shut up about Iran because they likely can't find another way to keep their country together.


American can't shut up in general.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Super Dude on September 24, 2012, 05:35:14 PM
Sounds about right. :tup
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Nick on September 24, 2012, 07:24:22 PM
There must be some gamers on P/R side that'll get it:

(https://i.chzbgr.com/completestore/12/8/7/GInETsWKfUqmel2-6YzdqA2.png)

Half-Life?
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: antigoon on September 24, 2012, 08:30:46 PM
Mass Effect
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Nick on September 24, 2012, 08:32:26 PM
Ah, okay, got him confused with G-man.

(https://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb57088/villains/images/7/7b/G-Man_(Half-Life).jpg)
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Sigz on September 24, 2012, 08:37:47 PM
The Illusive Man actually had conviction in his beliefs and was quite competent however.

But still lol
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: rumborak on September 24, 2012, 09:00:43 PM
Jeez, that 10,000 years of Iran awfully sounds like Hitler's Aryan shit.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Super Dude on September 24, 2012, 09:05:13 PM
Which, funnily enough, is true on both counts (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Iranians) if you think about it. :P
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: hefdaddy42 on September 25, 2012, 08:40:13 PM
(https://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i238/hefdaddy42/funny/romneystyle.gif)
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: rumborak on September 25, 2012, 09:42:10 PM
Gangnam Style!
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: hefdaddy42 on September 26, 2012, 04:08:53 AM
Gangnam Style!
:metal
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Sigz on September 27, 2012, 04:25:58 PM
https://thinkprogress.org/economy/2012/09/26/917651/phoenix-mayor-attempts-to-live-on-a-food-stamp-budget-im-tired-and-its-hard-to-focus/?mobile=nc

Quote
When local activist groups challenged Phoenix Mayor Greg Stanton to live on a food stamp budget for a week to mark Hunger Awareness Month, he took them up on the offer and found out just how hard it was. Stanton kept a diary on the challenge, which allotted him roughly $29 a week, the same amount 1.1 million Arizonans receive from the Supplemental Assistance Nutrition Program (SNAP) each week.

By day four, Stanton noted that he was “tired” and “it’s hard to focus” after leaving the house for work without time to scramble eggs or eat a decent breakfast:

OK- ran out the door today with no time to scramble eggs or even make a sandwich. So I’m surviving on an apple and handful of peanuts, and the coffee I took to the office until dinner. I’m tired, and it’s hard to focus. I can’t go buy a sandwich because that would be cheating- even the dollar menu at Taco Bell is cheating. You can’t use SNAP benefits at any restaurants, fast food or otherwise. I’m facing a long, hungry day and an even longer night getting dinner on the table, which requires making EVERYTHING from scratch on this budget. It’s only for a week, so I’ve got a decent attitude. If I were doing this with no end in sight, I probably wouldn’t be so pleasant.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Ryzee on September 27, 2012, 04:33:30 PM
Why doesn't he just go pick up some crab legs?
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: chknptpie on September 27, 2012, 04:46:34 PM
Everything has to be made from scratch with foodstamps? I knew there were restrictions, but I didn't realize it was that strict. What about some slices of bread, deli meat and some cheese? Can you not buy the stuff to make a sandwich?
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Scheavo on September 27, 2012, 05:46:36 PM
Everything has to be made from scratch with foodstamps? I knew there were restrictions, but I didn't realize it was that strict. What about some slices of bread, deli meat and some cheese? Can you not buy the stuff to make a sandwich?

Premade is more expensive, so if you're on a tight budget, you can only afford so much premade.

Plus, it's as much about time as it is anything. As he noted, he just didn't have the time to make a sandwhich, it's not in his normal routine. Certainly could become part of it, and I'm sure if he actually had to do this fulltime, he would become better at it.

Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on September 27, 2012, 06:19:30 PM
Props to the guy for doing it.  More politicians should. 
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: snapple on September 27, 2012, 08:48:04 PM
Still, a LOT of people abuse food stamps.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on September 27, 2012, 08:49:11 PM
And even more grossly overstate the cost to society.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: rumborak on September 27, 2012, 09:34:09 PM
Still, a LOT of people abuse food stamps.

Just imagine those rivers of honey flowing through the streets if we could only catch those 1% who abuse food stamps.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Nick on September 27, 2012, 10:04:45 PM
Still, a LOT of people abuse food stamps.

Just imagine those rivers of honey flowing through the streets if we could only catch those 1% who abuse food stamps.

And the sparkling error free democracy we would have if we could bring the epidemic nearly non-existent voter fraud to an end.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on September 27, 2012, 10:24:13 PM
Indeed.  It really is surprisingly easy to distract people with manufactured issues. 
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: hefdaddy42 on September 28, 2012, 09:43:26 AM
BUT VOTER FRAUD
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on September 28, 2012, 05:08:14 PM
Of all the frauds that concern me, voter fraud is near the bottom of the pile.  Election fraud actually is a concern, but it's the two parties behind that; not the electorate. 
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: GuineaPig on September 29, 2012, 09:44:10 AM
https://news.nationalpost.com/2012/09/28/you-really-did-not-manage-this-well-czech-president-to-bodyguards-after-being-shot-with-toy-handgun/

All I could think of was how this would have been different if it had happened in the US  :rollin
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Scorpion on September 29, 2012, 02:05:49 PM
Quick question: has it ever happened that someone who was POTUS and then lost the election for his second term was challenger again four years later? Is that even legal?

Don't ask me why I'm asking, it just popped into my head.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Sigz on September 29, 2012, 02:07:18 PM
It's legal. Grover Cleveland is the only president to have actually done it though.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: The King in Crimson on September 30, 2012, 12:04:16 AM
Teddy Roosevelt ran again after his second term (before there were two-term limits for the President) against Taft and both ended up losing to Woodrow Wilson.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Scheavo on September 30, 2012, 12:47:39 AM
Of all the frauds that concern me, voter fraud is near the bottom of the pile.  Election fraud actually is a concern, but it's the two parties behind that; not the electorate.

The irony is, that only actual news I've heard about voter fraud, other than Republicans decrying some fake problem, is Republicans paying someone to sign up voters, and getting in trouble.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: hefdaddy42 on September 30, 2012, 06:18:16 AM
Onion's Obama-Ahmadinejad 'poll' cited as fact in Iran (https://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/49226254/ns/us_news-weird_news/#__utma=14933801.1188129887.1343902735.1348744419.1349007041.10&__utmb=14933801.5.10.1349007041&__utmc=14933801&__utmx=-&__utmz=14933801.1343902735.1.1.utmcsr=(direct)|utmccn=(direct)|utmcmd=(none)&__utmv=14933801.|8=Earned%20By=msnbc%7Ccover=1^12=Landing%20Content=Mixed=1^13=Landing%20Hostname=www.nbcnews.com=1^30=Visit%20Type%20to%20Content=Earned%20to%20Mixed=1&__utmk=143769269)
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on September 30, 2012, 09:57:08 AM
Of all the frauds that concern me, voter fraud is near the bottom of the pile.  Election fraud actually is a concern, but it's the two parties behind that; not the electorate.

The irony is, that only actual news I've heard about voter fraud, other than Republicans decrying some fake problem, is Republicans paying someone to sign up voters, and getting in trouble.

I was referring to the system in general.  Americans are deluded into thinking they have a choice in the matter, when all they really have to choose from are a pair of nearly identical shills. 
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: snapple on October 01, 2012, 04:28:32 PM
Still, a LOT of people abuse food stamps.

Just imagine those rivers of honey flowing through the streets if we could only catch those 1% who abuse food stamps.

Case 1: Wife used to work at a grocery store. A lot of people that had food stamps had nice cars and had other means of showing some sort of wealth. (no numbers and I KNOW it's just what WE HAVE seen)

Case 2: My buddy's sister moved out to Oregon. She was on food stamps (genuinely needed them) and eventually moved back to Michigan. She was responsible and went to whatever office in Oregon that concerns itself with food stamps (bridge card) and informed them of the move. They told her that the card's expiration date was in August (this was MARCH) and said that she would be able to use it in Michigan until then. She went to THREE other offices and got the same explanation. She eventually just helped out with groceries or she bought food for the local churches and homeless shelters.


My experience isn't "people buying crablegs", it's lack of oversight.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on October 01, 2012, 05:00:18 PM
I wonder if the cost of increased oversight would be more or less than the cost of abuse.  It's entirely possible that the price tag for reducing fraud by 50%, and doing so without interfering with the majority of users who are honest and in need, would far outweigh the cost of the fraud itself. 
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Scheavo on October 01, 2012, 08:10:52 PM
Quote
Case 2: My buddy's sister moved out to Oregon. She was on food stamps (genuinely needed them) and eventually moved back to Michigan. She was responsible and went to whatever office in Oregon that concerns itself with food stamps (bridge card) and informed them of the move. They told her that the card's expiration date was in August (this was MARCH) and said that she would be able to use it in Michigan until then. She went to THREE other offices and got the same explanation. She eventually just helped out with groceries or she bought food for the local churches and homeless shelters.

I'm guessing that's done because a lot of people move, and still genuinely need the food stamps. So instead of making them reapply in another state, waiting for approval, etc, they just let the money still apply... seeing as how it's a federal program anyways, so the money ends up coming out of the same pot. Without seeing numbers on this, it's hard for me to say it's a  problem.

Oh, and do Republican policies actually modify practices and go after corruption, or do they mostly just cost the expenditure completely?
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on October 01, 2012, 09:39:21 PM
That's a good question.  The most recent attempt by House Republicans to deal with food stamps is actually pretty narrowly targeted. 

Quote
Sessions laid out a plan Thursday during debate on the Farm Bill to confront the program’s ballooning cost with four amendments targeting the factors behind the recent expansion. One major target is a “categorical eligibility” rule, which allows states to provide food stamps to citizens whose assets “exceed” the eligibility limit if they receive other government assistance. Also on Sessions’ chopping block are incentives for states to increase their food stamp rolls.

One of Sessions’ amendments would require an asset test for food stamp applicants. Another would close a loophole in the Low Income Home Energy Assistance Program that allows people to claim a lower income, and eligibility for food stamps, on the basis of their heating/cooling bills.

He would also end a bonus system that awards funds to states that enroll more people, and establish a system to verify that people applying for food stamps are in the country legally, through a program similar to E-Verify.

“Empowering the individual is more than sound policy,” Sessions added. “It remains the animating moral idea behind the American experience.”

Read more: https://dailycaller.com/2012/06/08/senate-republicans-policy-not-necessity-drives-ballooning-food-stamp-rolls/#ixzz286mw3R7S
These seem hit or miss.  The asset test doesn't sit real well with me if it's just a hard cap.  I'm not sure somebody should have to sell their home to feed their kids.  Eventually maybe, but not tomorrow.  That's actually tough one, though. 

The heating costs thing actually does sound pretty bogus.  If your heating and cooling costs are factored into your rent, then you receive a voucher that significantly increases your benefits.  Not sure what the point of that one is.

As for incentivizing enrollment via the states, that doesn't trouble me, except that they should be rewarding good enrollment, not any enrollment. 

I guess it's another example of one party finding some reasonable problems, and then attempting to solve them with a hydrogen bomb.  And as I've said before, the problems really aren't all that big anyway.  Certainly not as harmful as the issues they're serving to distract from. 
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: GuineaPig on October 02, 2012, 02:33:20 PM
I wonder if the cost of increased oversight would be more or less than the cost of abuse.  It's entirely possible that the price tag for reducing fraud by 50%, and doing so without interfering with the majority of users who are honest and in need, would far outweigh the cost of the fraud itself.

Probably more.

A similar, classic example is that it's much, much cheaper (cost of abuse included) to enforce fares on public transport / intercity trains via random, rare, fare inspections than to build fare gates or hire people to do it on each vehicle.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: hefdaddy42 on October 06, 2012, 06:29:02 AM
House Science Member Says Earth is 9,000 years old (https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/2012/10/05/house-science-member-says-earth-is-9000-years-old/)

There are no qualifications to get on the Committee on Science, Space and Technology of the House of Representatives?  Any fool lucky enough to get elected by his local yokels is good?  This is somewhat frightening.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: antigoon on October 06, 2012, 11:54:13 AM
I thought it was slightly over 6,000 years old.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: hefdaddy42 on October 06, 2012, 12:07:07 PM
I thought it was slightly over 6,000 years old.
See?  He even sucks at Creation math.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Sigz on October 06, 2012, 12:26:47 PM
Is anyone going to watch the streamed Stewart/O'Reilly debate tonight?
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: hefdaddy42 on October 06, 2012, 12:29:50 PM
Is anyone going to watch the streamed Stewart/O'Reilly debate tonight?
I would love to, but I'll be at a party.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: antigoon on October 06, 2012, 01:11:32 PM
I thought it was slightly over 6,000 years old.
See?  He even sucks at Creation math.
:rollin
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Sigz on October 06, 2012, 01:31:09 PM
 :lol
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Sigz on October 07, 2012, 12:58:16 AM
Is anyone going to watch the streamed Stewart/O'Reilly debate tonight?

Oh my god this was amazing.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: hefdaddy42 on October 07, 2012, 04:51:13 AM
Is anyone going to watch the streamed Stewart/O'Reilly debate tonight?

Oh my god this was amazing.
Is it going to be available for viewing after the fact?
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: The King in Crimson on October 07, 2012, 10:08:41 AM
Is anyone going to watch the streamed Stewart/O'Reilly debate tonight?

Oh my god this was amazing.
Site was so bogged down, I couldn't even log in.  :-[
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Sigz on October 07, 2012, 10:48:30 AM
Yeah, it's up for streaming and download on the website.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Cedar redaC on October 07, 2012, 08:09:45 PM
Last Saturday at LDS General Conference, a church-wide event, it was announced that young men who are out of high school (or its equivalant) will be able to serve missions at the age of 18 instead of 19. Young women will be able to serve at 19 compared to the previous age of 21.

I guess I'll be serving a few months earlier than I originally thought. I'm told by most everyone who's served an LDS mission that it was the best two years of their lives. :)
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on October 07, 2012, 08:40:35 PM
If you ever wind up doing that in Dallas, let me know and I'll suspend my heckling of you guys as a gesture of good will.  Seems unlikely, though. 
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Cedar redaC on October 07, 2012, 08:52:20 PM
 :lol

Well, I can't say that I have even the slightest bit of influence as to where I get called to, but Dallas seems like a nice place.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on October 08, 2012, 12:37:18 PM
Can anybody explain why the hell the Syrians are shelling Turkey?  Is it the rebels trying to draw Turkey into the fight, because that's pretty misguided.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: rumborak on October 08, 2012, 01:03:45 PM
I don't get it either. The only explanation I have is the same as you, that it's the rebels pretending to be gov't military, in order to get Turkey into this.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Adami on October 08, 2012, 01:17:08 PM
I doubt its the rebels. Syria has already accidentaly shelled other countries too. Lots of rebels on the border. I'm just glad turkey isn't letting it slide anymore.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on October 08, 2012, 03:47:04 PM
Watched the debate this afternoon while working.  Good stuff.  I actually think O'reilly is an alright guy when he's talking to real people and not pandering to his FOX news minions.  While he's certainly much more to the right than I am, he's still very much the pragmatist, which is a quality I obviously approve of. 
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Implode on October 08, 2012, 03:59:51 PM
So I can't watch the debate unless I pay money?  :-\
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Sigz on October 08, 2012, 04:05:12 PM
Legally, yes.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: hefdaddy42 on October 10, 2012, 07:46:47 PM
"They rape so easy" (https://www.jsonline.com/news/statepolitics/state-legislator-criticized-for-comments-on-rape-hj76f4k-173587961.html)
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on October 10, 2012, 09:00:20 PM
"They rape so easy" (https://www.jsonline.com/news/statepolitics/state-legislator-criticized-for-comments-on-rape-hj76f4k-173587961.html)
I have no problem with his comments.  While I agree that blaming the victim is bullshit, it's an unpleasant reality that occasionally some women do lie about the circumstances of sexual encounters.  Sadly, that does alter the burden of proof.  It's a shame that it does, but everybody who's rightly upset by that should be pointing their fingers directly at the women who falsely accuse others.  They're the ones to blame that somebody has to explain to his son the potential ramifications of banging Mary Jane Rottencrotch at the ice cream social. 
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: hefdaddy42 on October 11, 2012, 05:09:49 AM
Yes, fathers should warn sons of such things, in private.  But elected officials should probably steer clear of such things in public remarks.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: MetalMike06 on October 11, 2012, 11:34:37 AM
So supposedly this has been in some Metro stations in the DC area...

(https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/1001_10151074836489117_700702526_n.jpg)
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on October 11, 2012, 12:00:44 PM
Yeah, that was a rare instance of the Republicans rallying behind free speech. 
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Scheavo on October 11, 2012, 12:42:23 PM
Rape has become a very bizarre issue. Many of the women who actually need the legal system are too ashamed or afraid to use it, while at the same time many women abuse it, and the allegation of rape seems to come with a verdict. Local college football team is missing their star jr quarterback this year, because he was accused of rape by some girl he was bangin. All the evidence shows that sex was consensual, but yet the man was still kicked off the football team, and now he has to go through a horibly shitty legal process to clear his name.

Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on October 12, 2012, 05:15:50 PM
I wonder how it would play out if the primary system were changed so that the elections still took place sequentially,  but the votes weren't tallied until all 50 states had completed there's.  Iowa and New Hampshire would no longer have so much sway in who gets the nomination.  Media outlets wouldn't be able to shoo their candidates into office.  I don't know if it'd be a good thing or not, but I suppose candidates would have to decide whether or not they could compete until the very end, or not run at all.  No more testing the waters and dropping out after 5 weeks.  The current system really blows chunks, and this just popped into my head as an interesting alternative.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: ReaPsTA on October 12, 2012, 10:38:04 PM
Just do it all at once.

I don't understand the notion of political "campaigns" to begin with.  If, given the choice of two candidates, you can't figure out which one you support without more than a few minutes' worth of research, you probably shouldn't be voting.  Because of digital communication and technology, we no longer need time for the candidates to travel around the country.  All the primaries should take place on a single day in either August or September so we no longer have to deal with two year campaigns.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Super Dude on October 13, 2012, 05:55:08 AM
Does no one think it contradictory that politicians who are anti-government or who believe in small government want really badly to get themselves seated in the most powerful positions of government?
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: GuineaPig on October 13, 2012, 07:54:48 AM
No. 
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Super Dude on October 13, 2012, 08:11:30 AM
In that case, why?
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: GuineaPig on October 13, 2012, 08:37:55 AM
If you want to reform things in a non-violent way, you have to become a part of the system.  It's just the way things are.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Super Dude on October 13, 2012, 08:45:09 AM
Yeah, guess you're right. But then isn't doing so basically just using the enormous power of government to effect enormous power on itself, thus in a way still basically turning them into part of the system? I don't know if I can articulate this very clearly, but doesn't it seem that by doing so, you are necessarily perpetuating the long claw of the law, even in trying to reduce it?
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: hefdaddy42 on October 13, 2012, 09:50:24 AM
No.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Dark Castle on October 13, 2012, 02:29:38 PM
https://www.cnn.com/video/?hpt=hp_t3#/video/politics/2012/10/11/tsr-sylvester-congressman-slams-science.cnn

So this kind of frightens me.  He's on a committee for science, yet calls evolution and embryology lies straight from the pit of hell..
Anyone else's thoughts? I didn't really feel like making a topic because I've never made one in here  :-X  So I figured side chat would work well enough.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: theseoafs on October 14, 2012, 05:12:53 PM
TAAAAAKE THE R-TRAAAAAAAIN

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0PeBwzvQds&feature=plcp
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Adami on October 18, 2012, 01:51:05 AM
God damn does my country need not only a complete overhaul of the government, but a god damn strict constitution that prohibits the same guy from running ruining the country forever.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Super Dude on October 18, 2012, 05:36:50 AM
I hear ya.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: kirksnosehair on October 18, 2012, 05:59:42 AM
TAAAAAKE THE R-TRAAAAAAAIN

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0PeBwzvQds&feature=plcp (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0PeBwzvQds&feature=plcp)


 :lol   I love that guy's videos!!!  :lol
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: snapple on October 18, 2012, 06:22:38 AM
Rape has become a very bizarre issue. Many of the women who actually need the legal system are too ashamed or afraid to use it, while at the same time many women abuse it, and the allegation of rape seems to come with a verdict. Local college football team is missing their star jr quarterback this year, because he was accused of rape by some girl he was bangin. All the evidence shows that sex was consensual, but yet the man was still kicked off the football team, and now he has to go through a horibly shitty legal process to clear his name.

yup. Just like sexual harassment in the workplace. I had a HUGE talk with my employer about this. We're the only 2 full time guys, and we have 1 girl who is full time. We just kind of made a promise to each other to check each other so joking doesn't get out of hand. The girl is VERY nice and very sweet, and she has a wonderful sense of humor. But all it takes is crossing the line once before you are totally fucked.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: theseoafs on October 18, 2012, 11:56:52 AM
Speaking of rape as a legal issue, here's an article that's making the rounds on Facebook lately.  It's by an ex-Amherst undergrad who was raped, and it recounts the positively shitty way the Amherst administration dealt with the situation.

https://amherststudent.amherst.edu/?q=article%2F2012%2F10%2F17%2Faccount-sexual-assault-amherst-college
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Scheavo on October 18, 2012, 01:39:38 PM
What's bizarre about rape, is the weird fact that women can face a lot of resistance in getting rape charges filed, but at the same time, some women can make false allegations easily. But I guess that's just full proof the system is fucked, when the people who need to use it, cant', and the people who don't, abuse it.

Rape has become a very bizarre issue. Many of the women who actually need the legal system are too ashamed or afraid to use it, while at the same time many women abuse it, and the allegation of rape seems to come with a verdict. Local college football team is missing their star jr quarterback this year, because he was accused of rape by some girl he was bangin. All the evidence shows that sex was consensual, but yet the man was still kicked off the football team, and now he has to go through a horibly shitty legal process to clear his name.

yup. Just like sexual harassment in the workplace. I had a HUGE talk with my employer about this. We're the only 2 full time guys, and we have 1 girl who is full time. We just kind of made a promise to each other to check each other so joking doesn't get out of hand. The girl is VERY nice and very sweet, and she has a wonderful sense of humor. But all it takes is crossing the line once before you are totally fucked.

And that's where the bullshit comes into. Harassment shouldn't crossing the line once, it should be repeatedly and intentionally crossing the line. We've gotten to a point in our society where we feel entitled to our own sheltered existence, as if we don't live in a complex society where someone just might say something that irritates you, or you don't believe in, etc.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: theseoafs on October 21, 2012, 12:11:36 PM
No matter what side of the gay rights debate you're on, you should watch this video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=A8JsRx2lois
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Super Dude on October 28, 2012, 05:25:21 PM
Interestingly, Gallup today shows economic confidence this week at its highest since before February 2008. I don't really know beyond that because that's as far back as they go.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on October 31, 2012, 09:33:56 PM
Two interesting cases about police dogs.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/decision2012/supreme-court-concerned-about-police-dogs-at-the-front-door/2012/10/31/f7e7affc-2371-11e2-8448-81b1ce7d6978_story.html

The front door case is a no-brainer.  A cop can go to a door just like a girlscout, but taking the dog with him is a search.  No getting around that and only Alito and Thomas will say that's allowable.  The bigger concern is the traffic stop case where, unfortunately, they're going to further support the dogs as a form of super-cop.  A dog's excellent sense of smell is incontrovertible, but their ability to communicate effectively is nonexistent.  They signal what they think their handler wants to hear.  Signaling for dope means rewards; plane and simple.  Moreover, their accepted usefulness is merely to provide probable cause.  They're used extensively in interdiction operations, and off the record, Johnny will tell you they're wrong more often than they're right.  However, if you've got reasonable suspicion and want to advance it to probable cause, just have your dog paw at the door; problem solved.  The Court won't address this.  From their perspective it'll be up to the defendant to prove that the dog was used in an improper manner.  Of course that will never happen since we all know that cops never, ever lie.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Scheavo on November 01, 2012, 12:29:13 AM
I'm not entirely sure about that; was watching PBS today when they talked about this, and apparently the justices brought up and questioned the veracity of dogs, at least hinting at the recent studies showing how unreliable such dogs actually are.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on November 01, 2012, 08:12:34 AM
The conservative justices tend to give pretty wide leeway to Johnny in such matters.  They might well agree with me that the dogs are only trying to please their handlers, but they'll still decide that it's up to Johnny to behave himself.  The result will be the assumption that the search is reasonable unless a defendant can prove otherwise.

After reading more about the house case, that's really an interesting matter.  I suspect it's come up before, but it will likely be a matter of the cop's intent and whether or not it's reasonable to differentiate.  In this case, the dog's presence was probably irrelevant, as the copper could smell the dope himself, and there were attempts to make it to the outside.   It's not hard at all to discern a doper's house from any other once you get to the front porch, where Johnny under normal circumstances was allowed to be.  Once you get their, there's an in plane sight issue.  As Alito put it:
Quote
"Two officers go up to two identical houses. One goes up with the subjective intent to sniff. The other one goes up with the subjective intent to drop off the tickets to the Policeman's Ball. Your answer is one is a search, one is not a search."
He doesn't think such a distinction should fly (no surprise there), but others might.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Super Dude on November 03, 2012, 06:46:29 AM
I talked to my brother over the phone last night, he's away at college. As you all know, I'm an environmentalist, and I plan on dedicating my professional life to whatever sort of occupation helps me get things moving forward. Well last night, my brother told me that he wants to support me in this pursuit, so he now identifies himself as pro-climate change. He fully believes in it and fully supports it! :p

On a related note: The other day, Scotland made a commitment to be 100% renewable energy by 2020. Michigan won't even try to be 25% renewable by 2025. lol us
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Super Dude on November 05, 2012, 08:29:49 PM
Liberal Americans' celebration of Guy Fawkes amuses me. The real Guy Fawkes was a terrorist who wanted to bring church and state closer together.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Adami on November 05, 2012, 08:31:13 PM
Liberal Americans' celebration of Guy Fawkes amuses me. The real Guy Fawkes was a terrorist who wanted to bring church and state closer together.

Yes, but Agent Smith.

In reality, I'm willing to bet that 99% of the liberal American's (or any American's for that matter) who give a crap about Guy Fawkes day do so only because the movie V for Vendetta which was about a guy trying to crush an authoritarian government, which for some reason a lot of American's seem to be under the impression they have.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Super Dude on November 05, 2012, 08:33:39 PM
Well yeah, I think that is it.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on November 05, 2012, 09:51:09 PM
Lost in the presidential bullshit, it looks like Colorado will be voting to legalize grass tomorrow.  The yays seem to have about a 10 pt lead on the nays. They'll be the first to do so, and it'll be interesting to see what comes of it.  They already had pretty generous medicinal use, and it was largely decriminalized, so this won't be particularly Earthshaking to them, but they'll be the first state to have legal cultivation and distribution codified in their law.

Personally, I still prefer decriminalization to legalization, but this is nevertheless a reasonable step, and from what I can tell, steers clear of all the corporate bullshit that Cali was shooting for last year.   
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Scheavo on November 05, 2012, 09:57:50 PM
It's up for the vote in Washington state as well. Some reason, I think it's also true for one of the New England states, but I can't remember which.

Meanwhile, up here in Montana, there's a measure on the ballot to keep a new medical marijuana law that is more restrictive than the one's passed by voters. Which really, just shows you the hypocricy of the Republican party - especially here in Montana, where Republicans are libertarian. There's a few Republicans in the State legislature who don't even believe in public education. They constantly talk about liberty, and how government should get out of the way... but apparently they think moral legislation like the drug war is fine and dandy.

Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on November 05, 2012, 10:15:35 PM
I wasn't up to date on the Washington bill, but it seems to be passing as well.  In that case, it's a real bummer.  Full of bad provisions and little that will help the average doper.  After it passes in Washington, marijuana will still be considered a schedule 1 controlled substance, and most of the same penalties will still apply.  They've carved out a narrow spot where possession of less than an oz is legal, but only if you buy it from state approved shops.  That's it.  Technically, passing a joint to your old lady would be a felony, as would growing a single plant. 

It also includes a provision for DUID which would be a real disaster.  Rather than Johnny having to prove that you're impaired, which should always be the case in a criminal matter, it allows for blood draws, and if the level of THC in your system is above a threshold, you're guilty.  As we all know, THC stays in the system well after the effects have worn off, in some cases days or weeks.  Since DUI enforcement in this country is a very lucrative cottage industry,  you'll be seeing a lot of people having their lives completely fucked for no reason other than The Man wanting to rip him off for a few grand.  Not cool. 
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Scheavo on November 05, 2012, 10:35:18 PM
God it would be nice if this country wasnt so damned corrupt. It amazes me how something rather simple like allowing people to sell and grow weed gets turned into some blatantly obvious give away to some special interest.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Super Dude on November 06, 2012, 04:20:02 AM
Personally, I still prefer decriminalization to legalization, but this is nevertheless a reasonable step, and from what I can tell, steers clear of all the corporate bullshit that Cali was shooting for last year.

Forgive my ignorance, but what corporate bullshit? Or is it something similar to the state-approved deal you mentioned for Washington?
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: rumborak on November 06, 2012, 06:23:01 AM
MA votes on medicinal marijuana today. And assisted suicide.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on November 06, 2012, 08:11:49 AM
Personally, I still prefer decriminalization to legalization, but this is nevertheless a reasonable step, and from what I can tell, steers clear of all the corporate bullshit that Cali was shooting for last year.

Forgive my ignorance, but what corporate bullshit? Or is it something similar to the state-approved deal you mentioned for Washington?
The proposition California voted on a couple of years ago was designed to make sure big business got all the proceeds.  It cut way back on the amount a normal person could grow.  It did away with normal people selling their excess to dispensaries.  It levied licensing fees so high that smaller mom & pop shops couldn't operate.  My point back then was that Cali was already a great place to be a head, and that legalization would make it much less dope-friendly.  Washington State will be taking the same approach today.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Perpetual Change on November 06, 2012, 08:18:16 AM
I feel kinda sadistic for saying this, but I'm already looking forward to Obama's win, just so I can enjoy a two-ring circus in 2016. The GoP primary was so great for laughs this year. The Daily Show and Colbert Report are both gonna be amazing with two primaries going.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: antigoon on November 06, 2012, 08:18:42 AM
I actually kinda want Mitt Romney to win.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Perpetual Change on November 06, 2012, 08:27:53 AM
I don't. I can think of a handful of ways Mitt Romney would probably have a direct and negative impact on my life, financially.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: antigoon on November 06, 2012, 08:31:51 AM
From my perspective, things will be largely the same except the mechanisms in place to oppose civil liberties abuses will be out in full force after four years of looking the other way and apologizing.

Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on November 06, 2012, 09:41:19 AM
From my perspective, things will be largely the same except the mechanisms in place to oppose civil liberties abuses will be out in full force after four years of looking the other way and apologizing.
Yeah, pretty much.  Of all things, this is the one that annoys me the most about the republicans.  Considering how terrified they are of Comrade Obama, they're ignoring the fact that he's systematically screwing with their liberty.  At least the democrats had the good sense to raise hell when Bush was doing it. 
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Scheavo on November 06, 2012, 11:55:27 AM
The people I've seen busted for it were transporting across state lines. That's not quiet a reversal. And it's an absurd statement to say that the medical industry in California or Colorado are suffering or being shut down.
Aside from busting the larger grows, they're going after a lot of the strictly local aspects.  They're threatening landlords with forfeiture if they're renting to businesses involved in the drug trade.  They're threatening bankers who deal with money involved in the drug trade.  They're having the IRS go after legal operators.  They're harassing activists.  All of this goes far beyond interstate trafficking. 

And while I don't think they're actually trying to shut down Cali's program, I do think they're doing everything they can to undermine it.  If it's a dysfunctional mess, then they'll be able to cite that for years to come.  "Yeah, remember when Cali tried to do that?  Wow.  What a disaster!"

I think all of what you just said simply points to how and why the President can't really just sign an executive order or tell his justice department to let states decide this. What you point to are things done by local US Attorney's, who operate in a largely independent manner from the DOJ and the President (which I think is a good policy). Sure, the President could fire the attorney's, but over what? That would be disruptive to all the other cases the attorney is working on, and would be putting medical marijuana over all those other priorities.

I still think it's a little unfair to be angry at Obama at all of this. He seriously has bigger fish to fry, and I honestly doubt he knows too much about what local attorneys are doing, or the state of the medical marijuana industry. As someone who has some interest in the matter, I can tell you that it's not getting much notice, and that I have to do a good amount of digging to find anything about it. Holder, on the other hand, may be showing some deceit.

What's troubling to me, is that the talk is all about medical marijuana - which shouldn't even be the case. The debate ignores the much larger war on drugs; medical marijuana is such a small issue compared to this larger issue. I think the issue of letting states decide medical marijuana is a rather small, inconsequential issue, even though I have some what of a personal stake in the matter.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Progmetty on November 06, 2012, 03:35:43 PM
I saw this picture on facebook a few days ago of a Tea Party rally where a woman had a sign that said "It's 1930's Germany all over again" and the Obama campaign sign with a Swastika in the middle of it.
We don't need to examine how dumb that sign is since it has no grounds at all but I'd like to point out how ironic that sign is since Germany in the 1930's was governed by a far right party that started out as a grass root movement.. what that sign says defines her more than anyone else she's protesting!
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Super Dude on November 06, 2012, 04:17:46 PM
Whenever I see something like that:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WLI0GMMbQaQ
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: antigoon on November 09, 2012, 01:54:55 PM
Petraeus is resigning as Director of the CIA because he had an extramarital affair that nobody knew about?

https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/national-international/NATL-CIA-Director-Petraeus-Resigns-Cites-Extra-Marital-Affair-178159541.html

hm.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Scheavo on November 09, 2012, 02:49:59 PM
Petraeus is resigning as Director of the CIA because he had an extramarital affair that nobody knew about?

https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/national-international/NATL-CIA-Director-Petraeus-Resigns-Cites-Extra-Marital-Affair-178159541.html

hm.

Wouldn't an affair be something people don't know about? Even Fox News was saying the white house most likely didnt want petraus to leave. The conspiracy theoris are going to be talks about, but at the end of the day, it's a conspiracy theory.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: rumborak on November 09, 2012, 02:54:17 PM
Who knows, maybe the woman he had the affair with is working directly with him. So, in order to save the marriage he has to quit the job.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Scheavo on November 09, 2012, 03:00:50 PM
Apparently this kind of this is not looked upon well in the CIA, due to te nature of the CIA and blackmail. He also apparently went to Argo last week instead of dealin with Libya.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: antigoon on November 09, 2012, 03:21:40 PM
Petraeus is resigning as Director of the CIA because he had an extramarital affair that nobody knew about?

https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/national-international/NATL-CIA-Director-Petraeus-Resigns-Cites-Extra-Marital-Affair-178159541.html

hm.

Wouldn't an affair be something people don't know about? Even Fox News was saying the white house most likely didnt want petraus to leave. The conspiracy theoris are going to be talks about, but at the end of the day, it's a conspiracy theory.
Who knows, maybe the woman he had the affair with is working directly with him. So, in order to save the marriage he has to quit the job.

Maybe! Not suggesting a conspiracy or anything, just, usually these public figures only end up resigning when their misdeeds are brought to light. That's why I thought it was a bit weird.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Scheavo on November 09, 2012, 07:37:07 PM
Hehe, I'll agree with you, it is odd: a man involved in politics who has principles!
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: antigoon on November 09, 2012, 09:00:13 PM
Not principled enough to refrain from cheating on his wife :D
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Scheavo on November 09, 2012, 09:02:53 PM
Okay, more principled than most other politicians. Principles by comparison.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Adami on November 09, 2012, 09:09:04 PM
https://www.cnn.com/2012/10/31/world/meast/syria-sandy-facebook-claim/index.html

There we go folks, case closed. Syria caused Sandy.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: cramx3 on November 09, 2012, 09:15:59 PM
Are they also responsible for the noreaster?
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: rumborak on November 09, 2012, 09:51:56 PM
And that's why you don't jump on claims of groups to have caused XYZ, as in Benghazi.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Adami on November 09, 2012, 09:55:31 PM
And that's why you don't jump on claims of groups to have caused XYZ, as in Benghazi.


Well the REAL question is.........now that we know that Syria caused Sandy, why hasn't Obama referred to it as a terrorist attack?

That is why he is a terrible president. Personally, the fact that he is pretending that the terrorist attack known as sandy was just some natural event shows not only his ignorance but is proof that he is from Kenya. He needs to be impeached and then possibly thrown into a volcano.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: rumborak on November 09, 2012, 10:31:09 PM
Once again your dizzying intellect cuts into the issue like Donald Trump checking his luscious hair. You are the Moses of Donald's follicles.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: hefdaddy42 on November 10, 2012, 03:56:55 AM
You are the Moses of Donald's follicles.
This is, without question, one of the greatest sentences I have ever read.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Tick on November 10, 2012, 05:59:42 AM
Abortion....
Abortion is a woman's choice to make
To eliminate there own mistake
To have unprotected sex was the choice
The unborn child doesn't have a voice
The choice was to make the right decision in the first place
God help the human race

Woman are outraged when the subject is talked about. Anger ensues.
Consider this...
Protect yourself and its not an issue. When you don't have to worry about any consequence for your actions I guess you don't have to care if you make right choices to begin with. Its not always this cut and dry but in many instances it is.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Super Dude on November 10, 2012, 06:43:40 AM
Condoms break, just fyi.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: antigoon on November 10, 2012, 07:48:57 AM
(https://puu.sh/1ozuD)

WHAT WOULD WE DO WITHOUT THE POST
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Tick on November 10, 2012, 07:59:24 AM
Condoms break, just fyi.
If everyone had protected sex, their wouldn't be nearly as many abortions, don't ya think?
The point is people look at abortions as the choice. Not having sex or having protected sex should be the choice, Getting pregnant is the consequence.
When there is no consequence, the choice becomes a bit easier.
Just my view. Felt like expressing it.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: chknptpie on November 10, 2012, 09:08:11 AM
You think women take the choice of abortion that easily? Oh it's just another baby, better go get it removed like a mole....
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Tick on November 10, 2012, 09:15:09 AM
You think women take the choice of abortion that easily? Oh it's just another baby, better go get it removed like a mole....
That's what you took from what I said? Ok then..
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Tick on November 10, 2012, 09:21:37 AM
I would also add, it would save a lot of heartache if more effort was made to avoid such awful decisions. Once again...my thoughts.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Super Dude on November 10, 2012, 01:05:30 PM
And it's not just stupid teenagers getting abortions. Sometimes a young couple goes into a pregnancy pretty enthusiastically, until one of them loses a job and they can't pay the rent anymore. Would you really want to bring a baby into that kind of life?
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Tick on November 10, 2012, 01:26:55 PM
And it's not just stupid teenagers getting abortions. Sometimes a young couple goes into a pregnancy pretty enthusiastically, until one of them loses a job and they can't pay the rent anymore. Would you really want to bring a baby into that kind of life?
Yes. That is not a valid reason to terminate a life. imo.

You aint gonna kill yourself cause you lose your job, why kill a baby?

You can always lose a job at any time so, losing one while your expecting shouldn't mean terminate. You can get the best job of your life 2 days after an abortion. That's how I feel about it.

Life is always uncertain.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: theseoafs on November 10, 2012, 01:54:11 PM
You aint gonna kill yourself cause you lose your job, why kill a baby?

There's no reason to kill a baby, but that might be a perfectly sane reason to terminate a pregnancy.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Super Dude on November 10, 2012, 02:09:46 PM
And by the way plenty of people kill themselves after losing their jobs. Not that that's meant to validate anything, but let's just say it's not an entirely ridiculous notion, because people do that.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Adami on November 10, 2012, 02:35:42 PM
A child shouldn't be a punishment.



Also, you guys aren't going to agree because Tick (correct me if I'm wrong buddy) seems to view anything after conception to be a full on living child, while others don't. So what some of you might consider terminating a pregnancy, or stopping a child from being born, he might consider killing a full on living person.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Scheavo on November 10, 2012, 03:57:09 PM
If we allowed gay couples to adopt children, maybe there wouldn't be so many unadopted children out there, and maybe that means more women wouldn't have a problem going through with the pregnancy, and giving the child up for adoption. Though, I think, it's easier to adopt a newborn child than a child of older age.

So my question to pro-life, anti-gay persons is, what is more important to you: the life of a child, or preventing gay couples from adopting?
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Scheavo on November 10, 2012, 04:00:31 PM
I think it does. I don't think that is something he would want his kids to smoke nor would he want to legalize pot as an example to his daughters. It's my opinion anyhow.

That's a pretty interesting idea, actually.

It might be valid, if we didn't know that weed is less harmful than alcohol. I would say that Obama having his own beer brewed in the white house is setting a worse example than legalizing marijuana - and to be clear, I don't think brewing your own beer sets a bad example.

Weed has, pragmatically, been legal in California for at least several years now. And California society isn't collapsing or really suffering because of it, at all.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Scorpion on November 11, 2012, 02:28:25 AM
Once again your dizzying intellect cuts into the issue like Donald Trump checking his luscious hair. You are the Moses of Donald's follicles.

:lol :lol Sigged. Sorry Adami.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Tick on November 11, 2012, 05:55:32 AM
A child shouldn't be a punishment.



Also, you guys aren't going to agree because Tick (correct me if I'm wrong buddy) seems to view anything after conception to be a full on living child, while others don't. So what some of you might consider terminating a pregnancy, or stopping a child from being born, he might consider killing a full on living person.
Yes. you are correct in your assumption. I am very pro life
If we allowed gay couples to adopt children, maybe there wouldn't be so many unadopted children out there, and maybe that means more women wouldn't have a problem going through with the pregnancy, and giving the child up for adoption. Though, I think, it's easier to adopt a newborn child than a child of older age.

So my question to pro-life, anti-gay persons is, what is more important to you: the life of a child, or preventing gay couples from adopting?
.
Its actually hard to respond to your posts for me because you bring "anti gay" into a conversation where it wasn't even on the table.
Are you insinuating anyone who is pro life is probably anti gay?
I won't entertain your inquiry.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Scheavo on November 11, 2012, 08:18:51 AM
I never said YOU were anti gay marriage, nor did I (mean to)* equate anti gay marriage with being anti-gay. But, the republican party and many evangelicals and conservatives are against the idea I letting gay people adopt and marry, and the same persons are very prolife. And outlawing abortions still wouldn't prevent them from happening, they would just make them more dangerous.

*just noticed I had a mental lapse and did actually say that. Meant to have marriage at the end of that.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: theseoafs on November 11, 2012, 10:25:02 AM
While were on the topic of things that Republicans oppose that would actually decrease abortions, sex education.  Republicans are overwhelmingly in favor of abstinence education, and I'm not sure why, since it just doesn't work.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: The King in Crimson on November 11, 2012, 10:41:43 AM
Because Jesus...
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Tick on November 11, 2012, 11:11:03 AM
Because Jesus...
:|
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Tick on November 11, 2012, 11:18:23 AM
I personally don't share the complete view of any party. I'm not a tow the line Republican by any means. I not even a Republican, I am an independent. I voted in 5 presidential elections. 3 times Republican, and 2 times Democrat.
I wish there was a way we had a party that shared the best of both ideology's.
Both parties have went too far to extremes in my opinion. Too far to the right. Too far to the left. Given a choice, I choose the right.
I guess the bottom line is sometimes we all assume because someone votes a certain way to are in line with that parties views. It probably isn't the case for any of us.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Super Dude on November 11, 2012, 11:33:41 AM
Who were the Democrats, out of curiosity?
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on November 11, 2012, 11:45:21 AM
I personally don't share the complete view of any party. I'm not a tow the line Republican by any means. I not even a Republican, I am an independent. I voted in 5 presidential elections. 3 times Republican, and 2 times Democrat.
I wish there was a way we had a party that shared the best of both ideology's.
Both parties have went too far to extremes in my opinion. Too far to the right. Too far to the left. Given a choice, I choose the right.
I guess the bottom line is sometimes we all assume because someone votes a certain way to are in line with that parties views. It probably isn't the case for any of us.
That might well be true, but you can't deny that the only posts you ever make here are to fly the republican flag.  I have no idea what so-called liberal policy you support, but you cetainly don't use this forum to defend it.  For all I know you're Metallica.com's biggest liberal defender, but to us here, you're a staunch Republican.

A child shouldn't be a punishment.
This certainly does seem to be the logical end of the typical GOP platform.  Pregnancy and AIDs are deterrents to what they see as immoral behavior.  There really is a pretty big disconnect with their strategy, which counts on fear rather than reason to get their point across, yet decries some of the consequences when human nature shows up to kick their ass.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Tick on November 11, 2012, 01:09:03 PM
I guess I hate the ultra liberal attitude on this board.
What liberal policy do I support? I support not raising taxes on the middle class and making the rich pay there fair share.
The Republicans argue the rich are the backbone that keeps the middle class working so over taxing them would be bad. I don't agree since they only care about there own bottom line.
I say those scumbags are not interested in creating jobs, they are interested in keeping as much as they can and rather than create jobs they outsource them to make even more money. I say stop giving them breaks and make them pay there fair share!

What don't I like about Democrats? They create too easy an environment for people to sap off the middle class. Some people deserve assistance. A working single mom with two kids to support should have healthcare assistance and other aid. I can see that. A welfare system that allows able body body people to receive assistance way too easy is not good. I think welfare recipients should undergo mandatory drug testing. You fail, your done. People should not be getting food stamps when they are buying cigarettes and drinking booze. Entitlements don't work like they are meant to and that's the problem.

I also am not for a woman's right to choose. Big issue to me. The choice is to not have sex or have safe sex. If you get pregnant, you have the baby. MY OPINION.


Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Scheavo on November 11, 2012, 01:12:37 PM
This board used to be way more libertarian, but we seem to drive them off with superior logic and examples.  :P

(of course, the last part is a joke)

Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Adami on November 11, 2012, 01:13:36 PM
Well it used to be a lot more balanced. However the more extreme right wingers didn't know how to post without fighting, so they got canned. And there's only a very few ultra liberals on this board. Most of us are centric, some slightly left, some slightly right, and some very right.

I think the reason people argue with you so much (assuming that is the basis for thinking this board is completely ultra liberal) is more about your posting style than your opinions. I think if you just presented your opinions calmly, rationally and without people thinking you're trying to start a fight, you'd probably find a great deal of people who agree with most of them.

Just trying to help man, you know I luv ya.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Tick on November 11, 2012, 01:26:33 PM
Well it used to be a lot more balanced. However the more extreme right wingers didn't know how to post without fighting, so they got canned. And there's only a very few ultra liberals on this board. Most of us are centric, some slightly left, some slightly right, and some very right.

I think the reason people argue with you so much (assuming that is the basis for thinking this board is completely ultra liberal) is more about your posting style than your opinions. I think if you just presented your opinions calmly, rationally and without people thinking you're trying to start a fight, you'd probably find a great deal of people who agree with most of them.

Just trying to help man, you know I luv ya.
I'm sure your right. I get fired up. Its my nature on this board I guess. Strangely its only here that I am viewed in the light many here see me.
The truth of the matter is I am quite sure people meeting me for real would have a completely different perception of me. I am all about my wacky sense of humor and having a good time. There are people on this board who I have met in person that would probably attest to that.
I play in a prog rock band, love to go to concerts, and love my family. I am not an angry old man, although I would be hard pressed to convince some of that.
I don't know if I can change what I am here or not, but I appreciate those who are able to see past it.  :tup
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Adami on November 11, 2012, 01:31:33 PM
Well see I know you best from GD, which I think gets your personality better across.

However everyone has to remember that when they read a post of someone's, they can't hear the natural inflection, or see facial expressions etc. It's probably the reason lots of people dislike me (especially people who haven't gotten used to my posts) because without my inflection, I come across as a douche and not a sarcastic but very nice person.

So when I realized that lots of people disliked me here, I changed my posting style to try to counter that. Maybe changing the way you post here would go a long way, you know? Don't hate things, or get so angry. Just remember that in your life, what people on DTF p/r board think doesn't matter in the slightest bit, and post with that in mind. Who cares if some of us don't agree with you? Who cares if they voted for Obama? Who cares if they are pro choice? It's not really all that important. Just remember that it's really not very important, and carry that general sense of calm and dispassion when you post.

-bro hug-
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Super Dude on November 11, 2012, 01:32:31 PM
But seriously, who were those Dem prezzes? I wanna know.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Tick on November 11, 2012, 01:37:35 PM
Well see I know you best from GD, which I think gets your personality better across.

However everyone has to remember that when they read a post of someone's, they can't hear the natural inflection, or see facial expressions etc. It's probably the reason lots of people dislike me (especially people who haven't gotten used to my posts) because without my inflection, I come across as a douche and not a sarcastic but very nice person.

So when I realized that lots of people disliked me here, I changed my posting style to try to counter that. Maybe changing the way you post here would go a long way, you know? Don't hate things, or get so angry. Just remember that in your life, what people on DTF p/r board think doesn't matter in the slightest bit, and post with that in mind. Who cares if some of us don't agree with you? Who cares if they voted for Obama? Who cares if they are pro choice? It's not really all that important. Just remember that it's really not very important, and carry that general sense of calm and dispassion when you post.

-bro hug-
Wise words, and I totally agree with you. I always tell myself to grow up and stop worrying about the nonsense I get worked up over. I do see it in myself and much as I noticed a big change in your posting style, I think its time I did the same.
But seriously, who were those Dem prezzes? I wanna know.
I voted for Clinton twice.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Super Dude on November 11, 2012, 01:38:11 PM
Interesting. For what policies, if any?
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Tick on November 11, 2012, 01:41:15 PM
Interesting. For what policies, if any?
I was in my 20's and I was self employed. He spoke what I wanted to hear about healthcare reform. It was an unattainable thing for me at that point. I wanted to be able to run a small business and have decent healthcare.
Besides that, life was a party for me and I really didn't give a rats ass about politics in my 20's.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: The King in Crimson on November 11, 2012, 02:07:24 PM
This board used to be way more libertarian, but we seem to drive them off with superior logic and examples.  :P

(of course, the last part is a joke)
When I first started lurking in the P/R forum I was astounded at how far to the right the average poster was.  Since then, it's moved to the left more, though that was a gradual thing.

Honestly, there don't seem to be any real 'super lefties' here to counter the libertarians, a fact which continually disappoints me.   :'(

We need some real commies on this board!
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Super Dude on November 11, 2012, 02:44:48 PM
Yeah, the closest we've had is myself (and I do consider myself moderate left, actually), Cole, and ohgar.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: KevShmev on November 11, 2012, 02:49:04 PM
I'm kind in the same boat as tick.  If this forum were filled with mostly conservatives, I'd probably argue more for the other side and come off as a liberal, but because this forum so left-leaning (for lack of a better term), I probably come off as a conservative.  And if someone asks why I do and/or would argue the other side, I just cringe when I see anyone (generally speaking) so close-minded to where they have to defend anything on their side and criticize anything on their side; a nice balance to me is always better. :)
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Dark Castle on November 11, 2012, 04:19:58 PM
Ohgar to me is definitely our most to the left member, his reviews on movies are just  :rollin
I don't know, I think we have a very nice mix of political standings here, I also appreciate we even have a political board, on the other forum I frequent, due to people getting too hot headed every single time, politics/religion/social issues are pretty much taboo topics there :C
I mean things can get heated here, but I really enjoy just reading here, I feel like I learn more here than most news sites.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: antigoon on November 11, 2012, 04:30:02 PM
I think this board is extremely moderate. Esp. since most of the libertarians don't really post anymore.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Adami on November 11, 2012, 04:30:56 PM
I think this board is extremely moderate. Esp. since most of the libertarians don't really post anymore.

Yea, whatever happened to those libertarian guys? Like Jobe, TheTerminator, William Wallace, Emindead, etc?
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: antigoon on November 11, 2012, 04:32:26 PM
I dunno! On the one hand I appreciate that every thread doesn't turn into a debate on Austrian economics and the role of government in the marketplace, but on the other I'm not really exposed to that viewpoint anywhere else and it was kinda cool to have em around.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Adami on November 11, 2012, 04:34:27 PM
I dunno! On the one hand I appreciate that every thread doesn't turn into a debate on Austrian economics and the role of government in the marketplace, but on the other I'm not really exposed to that viewpoint anywhere else and it was kinda cool to have em around.

Some of them wouldn't have been good for that though. Someone saying over and over that the government is evil and that everything should be decided by the free market isn't really helpful in the long run. We need some moderate libertarians here......which I think we do actually have. Now that the election is over, maybe we can start some meaningful discourse rather than attack/defend Obama/Romney.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Super Dude on November 11, 2012, 04:35:55 PM
I mean, I think Epicview laid it on a little too thick at times. Some of you will agree, offensively so.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on November 11, 2012, 04:36:33 PM
I think this board is extremely moderate. Esp. since most of the libertarians don't really post anymore.

Yea, whatever happened to those libertarian guys? Like Jobe, TheTerminator, William Wallace, Emindead, etc?
Em got hisself banned for some reason.  I mentioned that was surprising since he was actually fairly respectful, and he only replied that he absolutely deserved it.  Interestingly, he just recently started a thread on the Broken Window Falacy at a neighboring forum.   :rollin
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: antigoon on November 11, 2012, 04:37:55 PM
I dunno! On the one hand I appreciate that every thread doesn't turn into a debate on Austrian economics and the role of government in the marketplace, but on the other I'm not really exposed to that viewpoint anywhere else and it was kinda cool to have em around.

Some of them wouldn't have been good for that though. Someone saying over and over that the government is evil and that everything should be decided by the free market isn't really helpful in the long run. We need some moderate libertarians here......which I think we do actually have. Now that the election is over, maybe we can start some meaningful discourse rather than attack/defend Obama/Romney.
Can't really disagree with any of this.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Scheavo on November 11, 2012, 08:32:31 PM
I think this board is extremely moderate. Esp. since most of the libertarians don't really post anymore.

Yea, whatever happened to those libertarian guys? Like Jobe, TheTerminator, William Wallace, Emindead, etc?
Em got hisself banned for some reason.  I mentioned that was surprising since he was actually fairly respectful, and he only replied that he absolutely deserved it.  Interestingly, he just recently started a thread on the Broken Window Falacy at a neighboring forum.   :rollin

If libertarians still roamed these parts, I almost would've posted an economic response to Hurricane Sandy, in context of the economic recovery, which stated that overall, the economic effect on GDP would be about null. A lot houses and wealth was destroyed, but a lot of people were going to get hired to repair that damage. Brought back some fond memories of the "broken window fallacy."


Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: rumborak on November 11, 2012, 09:32:52 PM
Thing was, WW was actually a really interesting poster when he wanted to. But his articles on reason.com and others were really just, sad to say, a libertarian circle jerk. And when pressed he even admitted to that he cared less about the veracity of his claims but rather that he was writing stuff.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: carl320 on November 11, 2012, 09:53:33 PM
I've seen petitions floating around (one for AL, one for IN) requesting that the Obama Administration "Peacefully grant the State of (insert state here) to withdraw from the United States of America and create its own NEW government."  It this a nationwide campaign, or at least a red state campaign?

I'm not sure if these will be at all effective anyway, but I don't get why people outside of said states are signing the petitions.  It's like they're trying to get rid of Alabamans and Hoosiers.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Scheavo on November 11, 2012, 09:54:48 PM
What I always found interesting was political tests usually gave me a higher libertarian score than the libertarians, yet the discussions make it sound as if I'm almost a communist.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on November 11, 2012, 10:09:24 PM
I think this board is extremely moderate. Esp. since most of the libertarians don't really post anymore.

Yea, whatever happened to those libertarian guys? Like Jobe, TheTerminator, William Wallace, Emindead, etc?
Em got hisself banned for some reason.  I mentioned that was surprising since he was actually fairly respectful, and he only replied that he absolutely deserved it.  Interestingly, he just recently started a thread on the Broken Window Falacy at a neighboring forum.   :rollin

If libertarians still roamed these parts, I almost would've posted an economic response to Hurricane Sandy, in context of the economic recovery, which stated that overall, the economic effect on GDP would be about null. A lot houses and wealth was destroyed, but a lot of people were going to get hired to repair that damage. Brought back some fond memories of the "broken window fallacy."
Like I said over there, and here back in the day, the broken window is a net zero.  It's a redistribution of wealth that neither increases nor decreases anything.  Sucks to be the baker, who loses his choice in the matter, but such is life.

Thing was, WW was actually a really interesting poster when he wanted to. But his articles on reason.com and others were really just, sad to say, a libertarian circle jerk. And when pressed he even admitted to that he cared less about the veracity of his claims but rather that he was writing stuff.
Yeah, Braveheart was an excellent poster when actually engaged in discourse. 
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: rumborak on November 11, 2012, 10:10:09 PM
Carl, it's the usual "I'm gonna move to Mexico because my candidate didn't get elected!".
Most red states would be fucked when seceding because they actually get the most federal money.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: The King in Crimson on November 11, 2012, 10:16:49 PM
Plus, considering how shittily run most of the states are.  Even banded together, I can't see many of them doing well.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Scheavo on November 11, 2012, 10:38:48 PM
EB: that was my argument as well. For some reason libertarians seem to take that as saying its good for the economy.

Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: rumborak on November 11, 2012, 10:42:33 PM
Let's be honest, Libertarianism rests on a 19th century economic theory.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Super Dude on November 12, 2012, 04:27:57 AM
I mean, technically, liberalism rests on 17th and 18th century philosophy. It's just picked up other stuff along the way.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Scheavo on November 12, 2012, 10:38:31 AM
Ya, history . Liberalism responded to the industrial revolution, I would argue libertarianism didn't.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: antigoon on November 12, 2012, 02:41:41 PM
What's with the constant self-victimization by conservatives? I'm usually not one to make broad allegations like this, but recent events in my personal world just have me questioning.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: rumborak on November 12, 2012, 04:17:43 PM
Considering yourself a victim is the easiest way of shifting blame away from yourself.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Scheavo on November 12, 2012, 07:51:16 PM
The irony, is that it's the acclaimed party of "personal responsibility."
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Super Dude on November 13, 2012, 04:01:29 AM
Well this sure doesn't look the way I thought it would, even the bottom part:

(https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/69788_480812731949941_1322708377_n.jpg)
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Perpetual Change on November 13, 2012, 07:33:04 AM
I dunno! On the one hand I appreciate that every thread doesn't turn into a debate on Austrian economics and the role of government in the marketplace, but on the other I'm not really exposed to that viewpoint anywhere else and it was kinda cool to have em around.

Some of them wouldn't have been good for that though. Someone saying over and over that the government is evil and that everything should be decided by the free market isn't really helpful in the long run. We need some moderate libertarians here......which I think we do actually have. Now that the election is over, maybe we can start some meaningful discourse rather than attack/defend Obama/Romney.

Agreed. It's nice that PR can get past Philosophy 1000 now occasionally  ;D
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Tick on November 15, 2012, 07:39:20 AM
My thought for the day...
If this country stops outsourcing every job it can, stops automating every job possible, and starts making things here instead of China we can become well again. Reality...we will never be that country again. Big business, hate the fact we are becoming an entitlement society.They need to look in the mirror and realize they are the main reason we are.  If they were about the big picture, we would have people working at better wages and the country would be in decent shape. Our current woes, are because no one really cares about the working class. They want more profit above all. The Government can't change the business model that is destroying the country and thus we find ourselves in this place. People need jobs, not food stamps and welfare checks. The very people who hate that our country has become so dependent on Government to give them a free ride, are the reason why we are. I know its not quite this simple, but these are the thoughts of a man of mere modest intelligence.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on November 15, 2012, 08:01:12 AM
Such is life in capitalist America.  That's not an endorsement for turning pinko, by any means, just an unfortunate fact.

I posted this a while back, but if you didn't see it, it's a fine article that deals with one of the problems with your solution.  Before he croaked, Steve Jobs told Obama in no uncertain terms that the iPhone would never be made in America, period.  Surprisingly, the labor cost isn't really the problem.  We as a country just can't do what the Chinese do anymore.  It's a fascinating read, and really hits pretty hard at why we're in such a dire position. 

https://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/22/business/apple-america-and-a-squeezed-middle-class.html?pagewanted=all
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: rumborak on November 15, 2012, 08:05:18 AM
I thought the whole outsourcing mud fight was one of the most ludicrous aspects of the election.  In a globalized market Romney did exactly the right thing by having work done cheaply to stay competitive.
You want to stop outsourcing? Then get people the education so they can do jobs some guy in South Korea can't. That's how you maintain the margin and thus, the current standard of living.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Cool Chris on November 15, 2012, 10:11:57 AM
So... does anyone give a shit about this Petraeus crap other than the media?
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: antigoon on November 15, 2012, 10:20:50 AM
I sure don't. If only they scrutinized the CIA's actual operations this much.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Super Dude on November 15, 2012, 11:37:00 AM
I heard an interesting angle about the age of non-privacy, which lasted on CNN for a whole five minutes. I was kinda impressed.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on November 15, 2012, 11:49:39 AM
Yeah, Techdirt just threw out an article about the matter, suggesting that what should be investigated isn't Petreaus banging someone who isn't his wife, but WTF the FBI is doing reading his emails for something that wasn't a criminal matter to begin with.   If There Needs To Be An Investigation, It Should Be About Why The FBI Was Reading Certain Emails
 (https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20121114/02501621041/if-there-needs-to-be-investigation-it-should-be-about-why-fbi-was-reading-certain-emails.shtml)
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Perpetual Change on November 15, 2012, 12:35:23 PM
That's how you maintain the margin and thus, the current standard of living.

Exactly what I was going to post. When the manufacturing jobs come back, you'll know that the recession's been bad enough it's set us back 100 years in terms of our standard of living.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Scheavo on November 15, 2012, 03:31:21 PM
My thought for the day...
If this country stops outsourcing every job it can, stops automating every job possible, and starts making things here instead of China we can become well again. Reality...we will never be that country again. Big business, hate the fact we are becoming an entitlement society.They need to look in the mirror and realize they are the main reason we are.  If they were about the big picture, we would have people working at better wages and the country would be in decent shape. Our current woes, are because no one really cares about the working class. They want more profit above all. The Government can't change the business model that is destroying the country and thus we find ourselves in this place. People need jobs, not food stamps and welfare checks. The very people who hate that our country has become so dependent on Government to give them a free ride, are the reason why we are. I know its not quite this simple, but these are the thoughts of a man of mere modest intelligence.

Well, the good news is that ~2014, manufacturing in the US will be just as cheap as it is in China, due to rising fuel and labor costs. It won't be cheaper to ship everything in soon, which will make an economic impediment to manufacture here again. In some cases, it's already happening - which is one reason why manufacturing has gone up in recent years (since 2008).
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on November 15, 2012, 04:52:09 PM
That won't help much.  It's not really the manufacturing costs in as much as it's the manufacturing abilities.  The Chinese can scale their production up or down at a moment's notice.  They've built their their infrastructure to support supply lines far beyond ours.  They have mid-level workforce which we couldn't imagine, which relates back to Tick's point about education.  From the article I linked to:
Quote
Another critical advantage for Apple was that China provided engineers at a scale the United States could not match. Apple’s executives had estimated that about 8,700 industrial engineers were needed to oversee and guide the 200,000 assembly-line workers eventually involved in manufacturing iPhones. The company’s analysts had forecast it would take as long as nine months to find that many qualified engineers in the United States.

In China, it took 15 days.
Like I said, the production cost of an iPhone would only be about $60 more per unit, which while steep isn't crippling.  The problem is that we couldn't come close to producing them on the scale that Foxconn does.  And to be honest, is Foxconn really the sort of industry model we want here?
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Scheavo on November 15, 2012, 05:13:24 PM
I never said all manufacturing would take place here again, but there will be a lot more manufacturing jobs here due to the costs. More standard things, like the crappy furniture you buy at Wal-mart, or even the clothing. 

And no, let China pollute their environment for shitty iPhones.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Tick on November 16, 2012, 07:59:18 AM
Bye bye Twinkies... :'(

The union rejected an offer for a pay reduction to keep the workers working. I don't know why unions think there are always above recessions, a weak economy, etc. Its bullshit. Take the pay cut and keep your jobs. I have done it. It sucks but sometimes you have to make concessions in life to keep rolling along. I was going to say move "forward" but I aint using an Obama tag line in my post.  :biggrin:

Seriously though, unions suck because they don't get it. Now Hotess is toastess. Smart move union. Way to have your employees backs. :tup
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on November 16, 2012, 08:23:19 AM
Wow, even the Teamster's were on Hostess' side:

Quote
Hostess had already reached a contract agreement with its largest union, the International Brotherhood of Teamsters. But thousands of members in its second-biggest union went on strike late last week after rejecting a contract offer that cut wages and benefits in September. Officials for the Bakery, Confectionery, Tobacco Workers and Grain Millers International Union say the company stopped contributing to workers’ pensions last year.

The Teamsters had urged the smaller union to hold a secret ballot on whether to continue striking. Citing its financial experts who had access to the company’s books, the Teamsters say that Hostess’ warning of liquidation is “not an empty threat or a negotiating tactic” but a certain outcome if workers continue striking.

And yeah, I agree with Tick on this one.  I actually have no problem with unions, and even today, I think they fill an important role.  However, it usually works out that the union is more concerned with itself than it's workers.  It's exactly the same as political parties.  What's important gets lost in the clutter when third parties have to worry about their own best interests, as well.

Here's the story, BTW (https://www.suntimes.com/business/16425279-420/twinkie-maker-hostess-to-close-1415-illinois-workers-to-lose-jobs.html)
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: rumborak on November 16, 2012, 08:45:45 AM
I think the union's action might have been the straw that broke the camel's back, but in the end this was a company that has been skirting bankruptcy several times already. They were continuing to produce a product that the market no longer wanted.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on November 16, 2012, 09:16:03 AM
Very likely true, but be that as it may, it's still foolishness on the part of the union to be that straw. 
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: rumborak on November 16, 2012, 09:40:24 AM
It definitely is, no question about that.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: antigoon on November 17, 2012, 10:10:49 AM
Military's 'sock puppet' software creates fake online identities to spread pro-American propaganda (https://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2011/mar/17/us-spy-operation-social-networks)

WHICH ONE OF YOU IS THE MOLE
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Tick on November 19, 2012, 08:29:52 AM
The next question has nothing to do with the results of the presidential election that just took place. so its not a sour grapes post. I just want your honest opinions.

Do you think our elections are tainted and to what level? Do our presidents win legitimately?
Thoughts...
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Scheavo on November 19, 2012, 08:33:48 AM
It's impossible for me to say, and I think that says enough about the legitimacy of our voting process. I'm pretty sure I asked the same question before the election, because it really is a massive undertaking, and it would be so easy to screw with the results, somewhere along the line. I think rumborak had a great idea, and I think it would be a good thing to have. Have each ballot have it's own number, you tear off that section when you turn in the ballot, then you can check it's vote later online. Quick and easy to verify if your vote went how you said it should, and an easy way to verify the election results.

Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Tick on November 19, 2012, 08:45:44 AM
It's impossible for me to say, and I think that says enough about the legitimacy of our voting process. I'm pretty sure I asked the same question before the election, because it really is a massive undertaking, and it would be so easy to screw with the results, somewhere along the line. I think rumborak had a great idea, and I think it would be a good thing to have. Have each ballot have it's own number, you tear off that section when you turn in the ballot, then you can check it's vote later online. Quick and easy to verify if your vote went how you said it should, and an easy way to verify the election results.
That is a good idea. I was thinking about people mailing in votes, emailing votes, faxing votes. plus all the ballots in the voting places. It would seem it would be skewed at least to some degree. They must screwed up some of them, no?
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Scheavo on November 19, 2012, 08:50:17 AM
Probably. Seems like most recounts I've seen do change the number's a little. Plus, each state has it's own rules on what to do with provisional ballots, and if and when they actually count them. If the voters themselves had an anonymous way to verify their vote, I just can't imagine how an election could be rigged without a lot of people getting angry, and having some proof.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on November 19, 2012, 09:02:16 AM
I posted an article about voter fraud a while back.  I think screwing with real ballots would be tricky and risky.  Even with the computerized voting terminals, there's still risk since everybody's expecting that sort of thing.  Plus, there's only so much you can do when talking about precincts with a thousand or two people.  What you can do is find ways to keep entire groups from voting.  I mentioned fraudulent letters being mailed out in Florida suggesting that a person's immigration status is in question and they might be arrested and deported if they try to vote. The demographic that would be effected by that would lean slightly left. Another good one is to canvass neighborhoods registering people to vote.  If they act like they're going to vote for your party, great.  If not, throw their registration form in the nearest river.  The thing about requiring ID's is another way to discourage small groups from voting.  That's really the level where fraud appears; not ringing up 300 extra votes here or there. 
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Tick on November 19, 2012, 10:25:39 AM
Does anyone else think Obama will find a way to run for a third term?
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Scheavo on November 19, 2012, 10:28:30 AM
Um... no? I honestly doubt the man would want to anyways. He's said in several occasions that this is his last campaign.

Besides, the man wants to go down in history as someone important. Changing the system so he can run for a third term doesn't exactly leave a good image of yourself for history.

I posted an article about voter fraud a while back.  I think screwing with real ballots would be tricky and risky.  Even with the computerized voting terminals, there's still risk since everybody's expecting that sort of thing.  Plus, there's only so much you can do when talking about precincts with a thousand or two people.  What you can do is find ways to keep entire groups from voting.  I mentioned fraudulent letters being mailed out in Florida suggesting that a person's immigration status is in question and they might be arrested and deported if they try to vote. The demographic that would be effected by that would lean slightly left. Another good one is to canvass neighborhoods registering people to vote.  If they act like they're going to vote for your party, great.  If not, throw their registration form in the nearest river.  The thing about requiring ID's is another way to discourage small groups from voting.  That's really the level where fraud appears; not ringing up 300 extra votes here or there. 

I think these are all very important points - perhaps more important - but I don't see why it means the actual system by which we vote can't be improved.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Super Dude on November 19, 2012, 11:24:17 AM
Does anyone else think Obama will find a way to run for a third term?

I think the guy gets enough random, unprovoked political beatings in just the one, let alone the future beatings promised in round two. I imagine by 2016 he'll want to retire and leave politics forever.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: hefdaddy42 on November 19, 2012, 12:06:03 PM
Does anyone else think Obama will find a way to run for a third term?
Where in the world did that come from?
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Tick on November 19, 2012, 01:02:46 PM
Does anyone else think Obama will find a way to run for a third term?
Where in the world did that come from?
I was just thinking that he is the ultimate cool hip celeb pres beloved by so many that the outcry will be so strong for there king and savior to stay put he may oblige them and pass new legislation that allows him to run again.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: antigoon on November 19, 2012, 01:43:59 PM
That would require a constitutional amendment.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Jaffa on November 19, 2012, 01:44:55 PM
Does anyone else think Obama will find a way to run for a third term?
Where in the world did that come from?
I was just thinking that he is the ultimate cool hip celeb pres beloved by so many that the outcry will be so strong for there king and savior to stay put he may oblige them and pass new legislation that allows him to run again.

I'm Tickled. 
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Adami on November 19, 2012, 01:46:00 PM
If anyone gets to run a 3rd term, it better be bill.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: rumborak on November 19, 2012, 02:31:32 PM
Does anyone else think Obama will find a way to run for a third term?

Where do you get those things from?
It would require a constitutional amendment to do so, in case you're not familiar with the document.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: theseoafs on November 19, 2012, 02:32:24 PM
Does anyone else think Obama will find a way to run for a third term?

Where do you get those things from?

This.

If anyone gets to run a 3rd term, it better be bill.

This too.  Bill could at least budget.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: yeshaberto on November 19, 2012, 02:32:59 PM
it is obvious that Tick is speaking "tongue in cheek"
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Adami on November 19, 2012, 02:38:37 PM
Well I'm speaking penis in mouth. Bills penis.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: eric42434224 on November 19, 2012, 02:59:52 PM
Well I'm speaking penis in mouth. Bills penis.

Wanna get famous?  Bill's penis can make you famous.  Bill's penis should run with Obama's bong in 2016.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Cedar redaC on November 19, 2012, 06:22:33 PM
Does anyone else think Obama will find a way to run for a third term?

You either retire as the Hero or you work long enough to see yourself become the villain.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: hefdaddy42 on November 19, 2012, 08:25:17 PM
it is obvious that Tick is speaking "tongue in cheek"
I don't think that's obvious at all, given the things he has posted about Obama in the past.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: rumborak on November 19, 2012, 08:56:17 PM
If he's on Gingrich's email list, he might be actually among the people believing that:

https://www.salon.com/2012/11/02/gingrich_supporters_warned_of_a_third_obama_term/
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Tick on November 20, 2012, 08:02:15 AM
Does anyone else think Obama will find a way to run for a third term?

You either retire as the Hero or you work long enough to see yourself become the villain.
He has a lot of work ahead to retire as a hero, don't ya think?
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Adami on November 20, 2012, 08:07:54 AM
Does anyone else think Obama will find a way to run for a third term?

You either retire as the Hero or you work long enough to see yourself become the villain.
He has a lot of work ahead to retire as a hero, don't ya think?

I don't think so. He's already saved the entire world on countless occasions, it's just that he did it secretly.

Who saved us from the comet last year? Obama.
Who stopped the army of Hitler clones? Obama.
Who single handedly rid the world of the deadly N-213 virus? Obama.
Who took out that giant fire monster who almost terrorized New York? Obama.
Who was revealed to be the one true son of god? Obama.

I think he's set.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Cedar redaC on November 20, 2012, 09:46:39 AM
Does anyone else think Obama will find a way to run for a third term?

You either retire as the Hero or you work long enough to see yourself become the villain.
He has a lot of work ahead to retire as a hero, don't ya think?

What I meant was that he would do better to retire with his rather positive reputation (I mean, look at Adami's post), than to stay and let some inevitable scandal ruin him.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Ryzee on November 20, 2012, 09:47:59 AM
It was also cool the way he sacrificed himself (or did he??????) to save America from that nuclear bomb by flying it out over the ocean in his Obamawing.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Adami on November 20, 2012, 09:49:28 AM
It was also cool the way he sacrificed himself (or did he??????) to save America from that nuclear bomb by flying it out over the ocean in his Obamawing.

Now that's just propaganda nonsense. The republicans want you to think Obama took billions of tax payer dollars and built his "Obamawing". But the reality is the man actually grew wings in the heat of the moment.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Tick on November 20, 2012, 10:09:28 AM
It was also cool the way he sacrificed himself (or did he??????) to save America from that nuclear bomb by flying it out over the ocean in his Obamawing.

Now that's just propaganda nonsense. The republicans want you to think Obama took billions of tax payer dollars and built his "Obamawing". But the reality is the man actually grew wings in the heat of the moment.
well...he is a god.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Adami on November 20, 2012, 10:10:42 AM
It was also cool the way he sacrificed himself (or did he??????) to save America from that nuclear bomb by flying it out over the ocean in his Obamawing.

Now that's just propaganda nonsense. The republicans want you to think Obama took billions of tax payer dollars and built his "Obamawing". But the reality is the man actually grew wings in the heat of the moment.
well...he is a god.

He is indeed, and apparently he's having dinner with Zuul next week, because he knew the right answer to her question.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: eric42434224 on November 20, 2012, 10:20:10 AM
It was also cool the way he sacrificed himself (or did he??????) to save America from that nuclear bomb by flying it out over the ocean in his Obamawing.

Now that's just propaganda nonsense. The republicans want you to think Obama took billions of tax payer dollars and built his "Obamawing". But the reality is the man actually grew wings in the heat of the moment.
well...he is God.

Fixed/
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: rumborak on November 20, 2012, 10:26:00 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uw63_YyNsF4
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Adami on November 20, 2012, 10:26:55 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uw63_YyNsF4

See, that's the last 3rd of that famous sentence that people keep leaving out. It should read as follows.


Those who don't care about history are doomed to relive it.............and become a god.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: rumborak on November 20, 2012, 10:29:57 AM
BTW, please disregard the blatant 5/8 in the movie clip.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Adami on November 20, 2012, 10:32:16 AM
Oh we will.


Well, 62.5% of us might anyway.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Cedar redaC on November 20, 2012, 11:11:52 AM
BTW, please disregard the blatant 5/8 in the movie clip.

Gah, it's freakin' everywhere!  :metal :)
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on November 25, 2012, 11:00:49 PM
The Life of Brian debate (https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=CeKWVuye1YE)

Quote
On the edition of 9 November 1979, hosted by Tim Rice, a discussion was held about the then-new film Monty Python's Life of Brian, which been banned by many local councils and caused protests throughout the world with accusations that it was blasphemous. To argue in favour of this accusation were broadcaster and noted Christian Malcolm Muggeridge and Mervyn Stockwood (the then Bishop of Southwark). In its defence were two members of the Monty Python team, John Cleese and Michael Palin.

I'd seen various snippets of this before, but never the whole thing.  It's actually fairly interesting.  The Bishop's a weird enough bloke that he's pretty hard to follow, but Malcolm Muggeridge is actually a fairly sharp fellow.  Unfortunately for him he's arguing from a completely flawed perspective, and that's what I find interesting about this debate.  He seems to be, and is by all accounts, a damned reasonable man, but is utterly incapable of getting past his own misconception about the film.  I can completely understand people who have difficulty discerning complex distinctions, but the difference between lampooning Christ and lampooning some of his followers really couldn't be much more stark in TLoB.  It's surprising to me that he was so oblivious.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: hefdaddy42 on November 26, 2012, 08:30:24 PM
FWIW, I've started a blog (https://walkingthepathtoday.blogspot.com/), if anyone is interested.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Adami on November 26, 2012, 08:31:24 PM
FWIW, I've started a blog (https://walkingthepathtoday.blogspot.com/), if anyone is interested.

If this is Super Dude hacking Hef's account, I will be very disappointed.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: hefdaddy42 on November 26, 2012, 08:51:26 PM
FWIW, I've started a blog (https://walkingthepathtoday.blogspot.com/), if anyone is interested.

If this is Super Dude hacking Hef's account, I will be very disappointed.
No, it's the legit me.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Adami on November 26, 2012, 08:52:03 PM
FWIW, I've started a blog (https://walkingthepathtoday.blogspot.com/), if anyone is interested.

If this is Super Dude hacking Hef's account, I will be very disappointed.
No, it's the legit me.

.........I'll remain skeptical.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Super Dude on November 26, 2012, 08:56:25 PM
Goddammit Adami.

On a more serious note: Hef, I look forward to looking through that. I'm curious, what led you to choose the particular blog service you did?
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: hefdaddy42 on November 26, 2012, 08:58:04 PM
Goddammit Adami.

On a more serious note: Hef, I look forward to looking through that. I'm curious, what led you to choose the particular blog service you did?
Random chance.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Super Dude on November 26, 2012, 09:02:02 PM
Interesting idea. Bookmark'd and looking forward to more.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: theseoafs on November 26, 2012, 09:04:00 PM
If my experience with Super Dude's blog is any indication, then I can guarantee you I won't read your blog, Hef.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: hefdaddy42 on November 26, 2012, 10:06:27 PM
If my experience with Super Dude's blog is any indication, then I can guarantee you I won't read your blog, Hef.
Well, my wife likes good movies.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Super Dude on November 27, 2012, 05:12:21 AM
Thanks you guys.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: hefdaddy42 on November 27, 2012, 09:35:41 AM
Thanks you guys.
Love you, man.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on November 27, 2012, 10:22:53 PM
Our bi-annual HSR debate thread seems to have been shuffled off to the archive, so I'll just bitch here.  Anybody who thinks HSR would work in this country should spend a few minutes dealing with Amtrak.  That shit'll sour you on the whole thing pretty quickly.  As nice as rail travel is when done correctly, we've managed to turn it into a half-assed orgy of dysfunction and greed here in America.  Trying to get from PHI to BOS is a six hour trip (should be 3), and if you want to go depart anytime during daylight hours costs 3 times as much ($187 vs $58).  In the mean time, Jet Blue flies to BOS 10 times a day, charges $87 and takes 73 minutes, plus airport time. 

Considering all the options, Amtrak ranks 4th, behind flying, renting a car and driving it and riding Greyhound.  It's also worth noting that you can't even reserve seats on those trains, so you might well spend your 5 hours 58 minutes in an aisle seat next to the can. 
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: GuineaPig on November 28, 2012, 01:46:01 AM
Amtrak has too many inherent problems (infrastructure, legislation, retarded red tape and safety rules) as well as the political problems placed upon it (staffing, cost recovery requirements, being a popular punching bag) to operate effectively.  Of course, they're also massively incompetent.

However, HSR could still absolutely be run right.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Super Dude on November 28, 2012, 05:04:14 AM
And who said Amtrak has to own/run the HSR? Maybe this could be an excellent way of breaking a monopoly, a recurrent theme in this day and age.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Sigz on November 28, 2012, 05:20:30 AM
Our bi-annual HSR debate thread seems to have been shuffled off to the archive, so I'll just bitch here.  Anybody who thinks HSR would work in this country should spend a few minutes dealing with Amtrak.  That shit'll sour you on the whole thing pretty quickly.  As nice as rail travel is when done correctly, we've managed to turn it into a half-assed orgy of dysfunction and greed here in America.  Trying to get from PHI to BOS is a six hour trip (should be 3), and if you want to go depart anytime during daylight hours costs 3 times as much ($187 vs $58).  In the mean time, Jet Blue flies to BOS 10 times a day, charges $87 and takes 73 minutes, plus airport time. 

Considering all the options, Amtrak ranks 4th, behind flying, renting a car and driving it and riding Greyhound.  It's also worth noting that you can't even reserve seats on those trains, so you might well spend your 5 hours 58 minutes in an aisle seat next to the can. 

Interesting. I've never really had any issues with Amtrak, and I ride it pretty damn frequently along the west coast (enough so to get a roundtrip from SB to Denver for free just from reward points). I've only ever actually had the train be late a handful of times, the longest delay being due to some dude throwing himself in front of the train rather than any fault of the rail. SB to LA is just under three hours, which considering the traffic conditions is a consistently good bet, not to mention pretty nice seats and free wifi - the train north to SF even has reserved seating. The ticketing office is also very accommodating, I've missed my train several times and they've just put me on a later train with zero hassle.

All in all, I've certainly been very happy with Amtrak over here.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: GuineaPig on November 28, 2012, 05:47:48 AM
And who said Amtrak has to own/run the HSR? Maybe this could be an excellent way of breaking a monopoly, a recurrent theme in this day and age.

I'd opt to have a separate authority run it, just because Amtrak as it stands is damn incompetent.  As it stands, it's not really accurate to call Amtrak a monopoly; the product they're selling is transportation, not specifically train travel.  If Amtrak were the only option for getting between, say, New York and DC, then that would be a monopoly.  But, obviously, it isn't.

Our bi-annual HSR debate thread seems to have been shuffled off to the archive, so I'll just bitch here.  Anybody who thinks HSR would work in this country should spend a few minutes dealing with Amtrak.  That shit'll sour you on the whole thing pretty quickly.  As nice as rail travel is when done correctly, we've managed to turn it into a half-assed orgy of dysfunction and greed here in America.  Trying to get from PHI to BOS is a six hour trip (should be 3), and if you want to go depart anytime during daylight hours costs 3 times as much ($187 vs $58).  In the mean time, Jet Blue flies to BOS 10 times a day, charges $87 and takes 73 minutes, plus airport time. 

Considering all the options, Amtrak ranks 4th, behind flying, renting a car and driving it and riding Greyhound.  It's also worth noting that you can't even reserve seats on those trains, so you might well spend your 5 hours 58 minutes in an aisle seat next to the can. 

Interesting. I've never really had any issues with Amtrak, and I ride it pretty damn frequently along the west coast (enough so to get a roundtrip from SB to Denver for free just from reward points). I've only ever actually had the train be late a handful of times, the longest delay being due to some dude throwing himself in front of the train rather than any fault of the rail. SB to LA is just under three hours, which considering the traffic conditions is a consistently good bet, not to mention pretty nice seats and free wifi - the train north to SF even has reserved seating. The ticketing office is also very accommodating, I've missed my train several times and they've just put me on a later train with zero hassle.

All in all, I've certainly been very happy with Amtrak over here.

It sounds like you've had an alright time.  But if you ever go to Switzerland or Japan or France or anyplace where they run rail half-decent, a couple of things will become clear:

1. Amtrak overstaffs by a ton.  It works from a customer service standpoint, but not from the point of view of having a self-sustaining, politically popular (and thus immune to severe cutbacks), and efficient rail provider.
2. Much slower compared to the train services of other nations, even if top track speeds are similar.
3. Much less reliable and less frequent service.  Not all of this is necessarily Amtrak's fault, but it does resist efforts for improvement.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on November 28, 2012, 08:33:55 AM
Our bi-annual HSR debate thread seems to have been shuffled off to the archive, so I'll just bitch here.  Anybody who thinks HSR would work in this country should spend a few minutes dealing with Amtrak.  That shit'll sour you on the whole thing pretty quickly.  As nice as rail travel is when done correctly, we've managed to turn it into a half-assed orgy of dysfunction and greed here in America.  Trying to get from PHI to BOS is a six hour trip (should be 3), and if you want to go depart anytime during daylight hours costs 3 times as much ($187 vs $58).  In the mean time, Jet Blue flies to BOS 10 times a day, charges $87 and takes 73 minutes, plus airport time. 

Considering all the options, Amtrak ranks 4th, behind flying, renting a car and driving it and riding Greyhound.  It's also worth noting that you can't even reserve seats on those trains, so you might well spend your 5 hours 58 minutes in an aisle seat next to the can. 

Interesting. I've never really had any issues with Amtrak, and I ride it pretty damn frequently along the west coast (enough so to get a roundtrip from SB to Denver for free just from reward points). I've only ever actually had the train be late a handful of times, the longest delay being due to some dude throwing himself in front of the train rather than any fault of the rail. SB to LA is just under three hours, which considering the traffic conditions is a consistently good bet, not to mention pretty nice seats and free wifi - the train north to SF even has reserved seating. The ticketing office is also very accommodating, I've missed my train several times and they've just put me on a later train with zero hassle.

All in all, I've certainly been very happy with Amtrak over here.
It just seems like the NE corridor is the one place where they should have this shit worked out to a science, and they've effectively chased me off to a much, much better option. 
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: GuineaPig on November 28, 2012, 10:47:21 AM
Yeah, and Amtrak's plans (well, pipe-dreams is a more accurate descriptor) for the Northeast Corridor are a fucking orgy of stupid overspending.  There's a solid case for just binning them (along with the FRA, of course) and just starting over with something new.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Scheavo on November 28, 2012, 12:13:26 PM
Our bi-annual HSR debate thread seems to have been shuffled off to the archive, so I'll just bitch here.  Anybody who thinks HSR would work in this country should spend a few minutes dealing with Amtrak.  That shit'll sour you on the whole thing pretty quickly.  As nice as rail travel is when done correctly, we've managed to turn it into a half-assed orgy of dysfunction and greed here in America.  Trying to get from PHI to BOS is a six hour trip (should be 3), and if you want to go depart anytime during daylight hours costs 3 times as much ($187 vs $58).  In the mean time, Jet Blue flies to BOS 10 times a day, charges $87 and takes 73 minutes, plus airport time. 

Considering all the options, Amtrak ranks 4th, behind flying, renting a car and driving it and riding Greyhound.  It's also worth noting that you can't even reserve seats on those trains, so you might well spend your 5 hours 58 minutes in an aisle seat next to the can. 

Interesting. I've never really had any issues with Amtrak, and I ride it pretty damn frequently along the west coast (enough so to get a roundtrip from SB to Denver for free just from reward points). I've only ever actually had the train be late a handful of times, the longest delay being due to some dude throwing himself in front of the train rather than any fault of the rail. SB to LA is just under three hours, which considering the traffic conditions is a consistently good bet, not to mention pretty nice seats and free wifi - the train north to SF even has reserved seating. The ticketing office is also very accommodating, I've missed my train several times and they've just put me on a later train with zero hassle.

All in all, I've certainly been very happy with Amtrak over here.
It just seems like the NE corridor is the one place where they should have this shit worked out to a science, and they've effectively chased me off to a much, much better option.

Ya, it is a bit odd that the NE doesn't have a better rail system. They have the population density for it to make a lot more sense compared to the West coast. But, that might be the reason itself. Less demand is easier to handle.

Either way, this is a great example of where the Federal Government needs to step up, and take control of the issue. It's one reason we have a federal government, really. To do the things required out of interstate cooperation, like an interstate high speed rail system. It would be good for everyone, and when done right, would make the economy faster and stronger.

Where's this lobby and why is it so poorly funded? There's gotta be someone who makes steel or something in this country who has some desire to do this.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on November 28, 2012, 01:36:36 PM
Well, I think the bottom line is that HSR could never supplant air travel, either in convenience or price here.  I get that, done properly, it's a damned enjoyable way to travel, but it's just not for us. 

In my case, I'm taking the train from NYC to DC, but that's it.  I'm driving to Phili and flying to Boston.  Amtrak just wasn't convenient at all for those legs.  Frankly, I'm only doing the NYC-DC leg via rail so that I can say I've done it.  It's still not a particularly good option.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: GuineaPig on November 28, 2012, 03:05:45 PM
Well, I think the bottom line is that HSR could never supplant air travel, either in convenience or price here.  I get that, done properly, it's a damned enjoyable way to travel, but it's just not for us. 

It absolutely could.  It has in Europe and Japan; why not the US? 
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on November 28, 2012, 03:59:56 PM
Well, I think the bottom line is that HSR could never supplant air travel, either in convenience or price here.  I get that, done properly, it's a damned enjoyable way to travel, but it's just not for us. 

It absolutely could.  It has in Europe and Japan; why not the US?
Haven't we had this discussion before?  :biggrin:

Suffice it to say, differences in size and scale, the amount of established infrastructure, and most importantly culture, would make it a no-go for us.  Rail in Europe evolved alongside everything else. Cities popped up alongside rail lines, meaning they're still very well connected. While it might have done the same here decades ago, it didn't.  We'd have to shoehorn a system into place around our existing way of life.  And given our interest in "not fucking around," I don't think it'd be a popular enough idea to warrant the massive investment of resources.  Hell, I like traveling by train, and I'm not willing to spend twice as much dough and 3 times the time rather than just flying and being done with it. 
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: rumborak on November 28, 2012, 04:22:54 PM
The Northeast corridor could clearly use an HSR. If one could go from Boston South Station to NYC Penn Station in 2.5 hours, the whole shuttle flight business would fold. People always exclude the time it takes to get to/from the airport, security, taxiing etc.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: GuineaPig on November 29, 2012, 12:10:29 AM
Well, I think the bottom line is that HSR could never supplant air travel, either in convenience or price here.  I get that, done properly, it's a damned enjoyable way to travel, but it's just not for us. 

It absolutely could.  It has in Europe and Japan; why not the US?
Haven't we had this discussion before?  :biggrin:

Suffice it to say, differences in size and scale, the amount of established infrastructure, and most importantly culture, would make it a no-go for us.  Rail in Europe evolved alongside everything else. Cities popped up alongside rail lines, meaning they're still very well connected.

Uh, things worked the exact same way in the US.  Moreso, even, considering that the development of much of the States happened after the invention of the Iron Horse.

Quote
While it might have done the same here decades ago, it didn't.  We'd have to shoehorn a system into place around our existing way of life.  And given our interest in "not fucking around," I don't think it'd be a popular enough idea to warrant the massive investment of resources.  Hell, I like traveling by train, and I'm not willing to spend twice as much dough and 3 times the time rather than just flying and being done with it.

See, now you're creating a sort of strawman.  Just because current attempts at HSR in the US have been massive, stupid clusterfucks that have been hostile to consumers doesn't mean it will always be that way, or has to be.  If the US emulated the practices of France or Japan, HSR investment would be much more cost effective than building highways, would be cheaper (and quicker) than flying for trips between city pairs >400 km apart, and would be much more energy and space efficient.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: hefdaddy42 on November 29, 2012, 04:59:59 AM
But they won't emulate the practices of France or Japan.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Super Dude on November 29, 2012, 04:02:56 PM
Hey guys, lookit this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=n8gO-VTaOwU
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: theseoafs on November 29, 2012, 04:14:53 PM
Bill:  What religion is involved with Christmas?  What religion?
Silverman:  Christianity is the -
Bill:  That's not a religion, that's a philosophy.

(https://i920.photobucket.com/albums/ad45/pjk_irwin/facepalm.png)
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on November 29, 2012, 04:37:45 PM
Getting past the insane notion that Christianity isn't a religion, why should O'Reilly support the government spending money promoting a philosophy? 
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Super Dude on November 29, 2012, 06:09:31 PM
Because fascism, apparently.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: hefdaddy42 on December 04, 2012, 09:02:24 PM
New blog (https://walkingthepathtoday.blogspot.com/).
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Super Dude on December 04, 2012, 09:12:12 PM
That was interesting. I found this pretty funny:

Quote
I think that if we Christians just followed the teachings of Jesus (go figure)

The comedic timing of it, I think.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: hefdaddy42 on December 04, 2012, 09:18:15 PM
I do what I can.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on December 05, 2012, 07:05:14 PM
Spent some time in the Senate gallery watching President of the Senate pro tem Al Franken today.  I had to wonder how many people have to skip out for him to get the call, but after watching a few minutes, I think it goes the other way.  You get stuck with that gig, rather than being awarded it.  He actually did make me laugh once, though.  Even in that capacity he's a funny guy,

Interesting thing about both houses is that congressmen will get up there and orate like Jimmy Fucking Stewert to an audience of nobody.  I spent 20 minutes watching some Republican Rep explain why the poor should be paying more taxes and speaking just beautifully to one other Rep, ten of us in the gallery and a succession of stenographers.  Similar deal in the Senate. 

Attended oral arguments at the SCOTUS, as well.  That's really a helluva show.  Had to wait two hours in a freezing wind to get in, but absolutely worth it.  I knew that Bryer and Thomas liked to joke around on the bench, but it looks like they've folded Sotomayor into their group, as well.  They'll pass notes back and forth and crack up when they read them.  I kept expecting Thomas to spin around a chuck a paper ball at one of them. 
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Cedar redaC on December 05, 2012, 09:16:08 PM
 :rollin
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Super Dude on December 11, 2012, 10:29:31 PM
YouTube gem of the day:

"In the United States we have this thing called the 2nd Amendment. Without that, we would be at the mercy of thugs, gangs, and eventually our own government."

Which was followed by:

"Smart Americans are arming themselves to the teeth right now because of the likelihood of an economic collapse within the next two to fifteen years. The forecast was for two to five, but with all of the new energy discovered in America, we may be able to stave off the eventual day of reckoning for an extra ten years or so. But if we don't get back to our Founders principals and ideals very quickly, the economy will collapse. Obama's re-election has pretty much baked our cake."
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Adami on December 11, 2012, 10:35:32 PM
.....but cake is delicious.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Cedar redaC on December 11, 2012, 11:03:34 PM
Goodness, that's pretty bleak.

People seem to think that every time that there is an election, that this will be the election, the big one that makes or breaks a country forever. While it certainly seems big in the short-term, presidents come and go, and if policies are deemed unworthy by the American people, they will eventually be repealed.

I don't get why people think that President Obama is the source of all of these problems. Sure, I don't agree with everything the man is for, but these are problems that have been building for years. When this whole recession thing really started, it was because people were taking out loans they couldn't pay to build houses they couldn't afford. President Obama may be far from having fixed them, but his reelection certainly hasn't "baked our cake". It would take much worse than a single election to do that.

I do think, however, that a return to our founder's values is certainly a good idea. I think we need to focus the government on the state and local levels. States that have taken over their own welfare and healthcare have proven to be more efficient with the money provided to them by their own state taxes. A federal government still is necessary for obvious reasons (natural disasters, war, interstate disputes, etc.), but I think that they have been overstepping their boundaries lately.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: The King in Crimson on December 14, 2012, 07:20:30 PM
YouTube gem of the day:

"In the United States we have this thing called the 2nd Amendment. Without that, we would be at the mercy of thugs, gangs, and eventually our own government."

Which was followed by:

"Smart Americans are arming themselves to the teeth right now because of the likelihood of an economic collapse within the next two to fifteen years. The forecast was for two to five, but with all of the new energy discovered in America, we may be able to stave off the eventual day of reckoning for an extra ten years or so. But if we don't get back to our Founders principals and ideals very quickly, the economy will collapse. Obama's re-election has pretty much baked our cake."
What the fuck does this kind of pointless bullshit really mean?  I see that a lot around the internet and from pundits, but no one actually explains what they mean by this?  Go back to the founder's principals as in only wealthy white male landowners can vote?  Bring back slavery?  No federal military? Is that what these people are talking about or is it just one of those empty statements that just doesn't mean anything in reality?
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Super Dude on December 14, 2012, 07:22:42 PM
Probably a little bit of both. I get the impression the main thing is state and federal government being on equal footing, rather than the current federal-first system.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Cedar redaC on December 14, 2012, 07:33:07 PM
I think that by "Founder's Principles", they mean the drive and will to make the world a better place for their children and themselves. Making the world a better place probably means not doing stuff to put us in massive debt and other things that would leave problems for our kids. Creating a pro-family environment is probably on that agenda as well.

They have good intentions, no doubt, but I think that they take the whole "this election will make or break our country" thing a little too seriously.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Super Dude on December 14, 2012, 07:38:55 PM
I think that by "Founder's Principles", they mean the drive and will to make the world a better place for their children and themselves. Making the world a better place probably means not doing stuff to put us in massive debt and other things that would leave problems for our kids. Creating a pro-family environment is probably on that agenda as well.

They have good intentions, no doubt, but I think that they take the whole "this election will make or break our country" thing a little too seriously.

I'm fairly certain that thrust still exists on both sides in this country...
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Cedar redaC on December 14, 2012, 07:59:49 PM
I think that by "Founder's Principles", they mean the drive and will to make the world a better place for their children and themselves. Making the world a better place probably means not doing stuff to put us in massive debt and other things that would leave problems for our kids. Creating a pro-family environment is probably on that agenda as well.

They have good intentions, no doubt, but I think that they take the whole "this election will make or break our country" thing a little too seriously.

I'm fairly certain that thrust still exists on both sides in this country...

Exactly, and I think that that's why both sides are so assertive about their ideas. They want the best for their kids. How they go about it is what makes them different. If people could really see that, I think that we wouldn't see people as liberals who want to sell our economy to China through debt or conservatives who want to set us back 100 years.

/idealist
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Super Dude on December 14, 2012, 08:05:18 PM
I don't think liberals want to put us in debt.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Cedar redaC on December 14, 2012, 08:12:06 PM
Sure, and I don't think that conservatives want to set America back 100 years either, but when different sides try to achieve the same goals in radically different ways, unfounded accusitions such as these just happen.

Bottom line: People are weird.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Super Dude on December 14, 2012, 08:16:40 PM
Somewhat unrelated topic: for the longest time, I've wished some great political theory guru could help pave the way towards articulating a totally new political philosophy. American liberalism and conservatism are essentially just offshoots of the Enlightenment, which is now half a millennium old, just with small bits of socialism, fascism, and romanticism thrown in (don't ask). Paradigm shifts are the seeds of tangible change. I know it's not something we can come up with willy nilly, but I do think our world and our understanding of it has changed enough that we can at least get started now.

I dunno, forget it.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Cedar redaC on December 14, 2012, 08:25:38 PM
It's definitely a valid point. I think that we need to rethink what we really want from our government. Some don't want any government at all. Fascism, Communism, Socialism, Anarchism and the like are all rather unchanging government systems that don't ever evolve into anything new. We live in a changing world, one that needs a more flexible system.

Gah, this theoretical political ideology stuff is tough.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Super Dude on December 14, 2012, 08:35:27 PM
It's definitely a valid point. I think that we need to rethink what we really want from our government. Some don't want any government at all. Fascism, Communism, Socialism, Anarchism and the like are all rather unchanging government systems that don't ever evolve into anything new. We live in a changing world, one that needs a more flexible system.

Gah, this theoretical political ideology stuff is tough.

I didn't really mean it in that sense really; I'm talking a purely theoretical plane, meaning simply how we as individuals, nations, and civilizations think about society and the individual's relationship to it. Each of those, like the Enlightenment and the resulting democratic theory, are each different understandings of that relationship. But yes, society as a whole needs to rethink its relationship to government. People on both the small government and big government end do seem to have one belief in common, if unspoken: that government has become a separate entity from society at large. This is what I think a new political paradigm needs to grapple with.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Cedar redaC on December 14, 2012, 08:37:49 PM

Gah, this theoretical political ideology stuff is tough.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Super Dude on December 14, 2012, 08:47:46 PM
Oh man, I live for that sorta thing. :lol

I became a politics major completely based on my love for learning political theory, and with one certain professor at that.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Super Dude on December 15, 2012, 11:22:28 AM
Gotta love that Onion: https://www.theonion.com/articles/man-who-will-die-in-great-eastern-seaboard-flood-o,30726/
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Scheavo on December 15, 2012, 02:14:12 PM
I think that by "Founder's Principles", they mean the drive and will to make the world a better place for their children and themselves. Making the world a better place probably means not doing stuff to put us in massive debt and other things that would leave problems for our kids. Creating a pro-family environment is probably on that agenda as well.

They have good intentions, no doubt, but I think that they take the whole "this election will make or break our country" thing a little too seriously.

That may mean what they mean, but what I think it should mean is to demand from ourselves a competent media. The internet can help us do that, but one thing the founder's had that we don't today is a very free, independent and thoughtful media. So many issues that get national attention to horrendous coverage, and rarely is there any thoughtful analysis on why the policies are actually in place, or I suppose as you put it:

Gah, this theoretical political ideology stuff is tough.


We need to bring more political dialogue back into our culture. Actually talk about it with people we know. A healthy dialogue would produce better elections, better legislators, and a better government.

Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Super Dude on December 15, 2012, 09:01:57 PM
Not sure how I feel about the general "attitude" behind it, but hey, food for thought:

(https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/380630_10152065383056758_1641126412_n.jpg)
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: antigoon on December 15, 2012, 10:25:55 PM
I thought that was Julian Assange for a split second :lol
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: carl320 on December 16, 2012, 10:01:50 PM
https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/secure-resources-and-funding-and-begin-construction-death-star-2016/wlfKzFkN

Don't know if this has been posted, but I wonder what the official response is going to be  :lol
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: XJDenton on December 18, 2012, 05:45:05 AM
Senator Inouye is dead.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/17/daniel-inouye-dead-dies_n_2316242.html?utm_hp_ref=politics
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Super Dude on December 20, 2012, 04:24:57 PM
(https://cdn.uproxx.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/tumblr_meknylOpzF1qg996lo1_500.gif)
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Tick on January 03, 2013, 04:28:35 PM
John Boener is a dick. That is all.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Zook on January 05, 2013, 11:22:59 AM
Jon Schaffer is a political nutbag. Therefore...

Iced Earth fans? Vote in the survivor!

https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=35276.0
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Cedar redaC on January 06, 2013, 09:41:27 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlwilbVYvUg
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on January 06, 2013, 10:18:22 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlwilbVYvUg
I like the Star Trek ones better, but the Eye of the Sparrow song was great. 
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Cedar redaC on January 06, 2013, 02:08:22 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlwilbVYvUg
I like the Star Trek ones better, but the Eye of the Sparrow song was great.
:lol
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Super Dude on January 06, 2013, 09:20:50 PM
I *probably* found this funnier than I should have:

https://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/599348

I wonder what Riceball thinks of all this? :biggrin:
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on January 06, 2013, 09:40:38 PM
I like the guy who says "thoomp!" and makes the money explosion sound. 
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Super Dude on January 07, 2013, 05:32:20 AM
Yeah, that part kills me every time. :lol
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Super Dude on January 10, 2013, 09:21:20 PM
An article posted by a friend of mine on Facebook:

https://www.boston.com/metrodesk/2013/01/07/protesters-glue-themselves-together-westborough-office-company-building-pipeline/LeSmfYcKrLUR0tHZEeQVAN/story.html

Quote
WESTBOROUGH -- Eight protesters were arrested at the TransCanada corporate offices here Monday afternoon after they SuperGlued their hands and chained their waists and ankles together to protest the company’s Keystone XL oil pipeline.

Seven of the eight protesters arrested were still chained together when brought to the Westborough police station on Monday. They were expected to be released some time Monday night on $40 bail each.

Jacklyn Gil, a Brandeis University junior who helped coordinate the demonstration, said at the station that the protesters were brought in at about 5:40 p.m., though she had not seen them since their arrest.

“They were in good spirits all day, so I can’t imagine it’s different,” she said.

In a statement, Westborough police identified those arrested as Emily Edgerly, 20, of Lexington; Devyn Weis Powell, 20, of Lake Oswego, Ore.; Lisa Rose Purdy, 20, of Waltham; Benjamin L. Thompson, 22, of Durham, N.H.; Benjamin J. Trolio, 22, of Burnt Hills, N.Y.; Allison J. Welton, 20, of Tonasket Wash.; Dorian S. Williams, 20, of Chicago; and Shea M. Riester, 22, of Brighton.

All eight will be charged with being a disorderly person, disturbing the peace, and trespassing, police said. They are scheduled to be arraigned in Westborough District Court on Tuesday morning.

Police said a locksmith unlocked protesters’ ankle chains and the Westborough Fire Department assisted in removing the SuperGlue from their hands.

One protester was freed from the chain around his waist before being transported to police headquarters but the other seven remained bound until a key was delivered to the station at 6:05 p.m. The key was used to unlock the remaining waist padlocks.

Marla Marcum, a supporter of the protesters, said at the station that police threatened observers with trespassing charges if they did not leave the office park during the demonstration.

Gil said earlier on Monday that the protesters were not affiliated with any other group and were opposed to the pipeline because they believe it will cause serious damage to the environment.

TransCanada spokesman Shawn Howard called the protest a “stunt” and said the company’s first priority is to ensure the safety of its employees.

“This publicity stunt is another example of protestors’ attempts to stop a project that is currently providing thousands of jobs to American workers,” he said in a statement.

The Keystone XL is a proposed 1,179-mile extension to an existing 2,150-mile pipeline system operated by TransCanada that transports crude oil from eastern Alberta, Canada, to the American Midwest.

The pipeline is a $7 billion project that would ultimately connect oil sands in Canada to refineries in Texas. It is not designed to pass through Massachusetts. Gil said the students are acting to show solidarity with protests scheduled to happen in Texas in coming days.

One of the protesters, Powell, a Tufts University junior, reiterated the group’s environmental concerns in an email to supporters, which was forwarded to a reporter.

“As you read this email, I am locked down in a TransCanada office with seven other youth activists,” she wrote. “We are engaged in a protest against construction of the Keystone XL pipeline, because building this pipeline to develop the tar sands will lock us irrevocably into the climate crisis.”

Powell added, “Chaining myself to my seven friends is a last resort after our government, heavily influenced by corporate fossil fuel interests, has proved unable to take action against this deadly project.”

As he begins his second term, President Obama faces increasing pressure to decide whether to approve the pipeline, which some say would create jobs and boost the economy and others criticize as harmful to the environment, the Associated Press reported last month.

As a Brandeis alumnus, I know all of the people who were named arrested in that article.

I know a lot of people will point to this and grumble about those crazy environmentalists, but now I have to ask: isn't it pointless? This was supposed to be a last resort, a move that would cause "corporate fossil fuel" to think twice about harming them, and they just walked right through and arrested them. They got the extreme bit right (it's just about the only thing they can do right), but totally forgot the part where people actually sympathize with them. To me it just seems like a signal to try a different tactic, because this was such a blatant failure.

I guess if anything, it strengthens my own resolve to go about environmental causes the best way I can: in a suit and tie.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: carl320 on January 12, 2013, 09:07:07 PM
Official White House response to the petition requesting the construction of the Death Star:

https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/secure-resources-and-funding-and-begin-construction-death-star-2016/wlfKzFkN (https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/secure-resources-and-funding-and-begin-construction-death-star-2016/wlfKzFkN)
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Cedar redaC on January 12, 2013, 09:59:32 PM
 :lol

Well played. I think that it's great that they responded to it with a good attitude.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on January 12, 2013, 11:56:28 PM
That's pretty fitting since the whole thing already is a big joke. The White House is quick to respond to nutjob petitions, cutesy ones, and anything that can be a lead-in for the standard talking points. Hit them with something good and it gets blown off.  The thing really is pretty pointless.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Cedar redaC on January 13, 2013, 12:01:49 AM
The good ones seldom get enough signatures, and when they do, it's usually not something that the president (or the rest of the executive branch) can do much about directly. Petitions to say, legalize gay marriage or marijuana nation-wide may get more than the necessary amount of signatures, but for the most part, these are things that are in the hands of state legislatures and state voters.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on January 13, 2013, 12:39:59 AM
So what's the point then? I'm not suggesting that he should sign an executive order for some silly thing because 100k people say he should. I just don't think this is anything other than a political hand job. A little free press doling out beer recipes and comical statements, and a platform for throwing out pre-existing policy statements.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: theseoafs on January 13, 2013, 09:39:31 AM
Well, a petition was filed called "Actually take these petitions seriously instead of just using them as an excuse to pretend you are listening", and it got 35k+ signatures.  Here's (https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/response/were-listening-seriously) their response, which contains (self-reported) examples of the administration "taking action" instead of spouting off pre-existing policy.  You may or may not find the response convincing, of course.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Scheavo on January 16, 2013, 09:18:19 AM
It now requires 100k signatures for a White House response....
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Cedar redaC on January 16, 2013, 09:37:07 AM
It now requires 100k signatures for a White House response....
Considering some of the things that have been getting enough signatures lately, it's probably not an awful idea. :lol
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Scheavo on January 16, 2013, 06:30:35 PM
Ya, 25k isn't a terribly high number of people in a nation of 300+ million people.  Even 100k isn't much in the age of the internet. I imagine the joke will fade though, then there won't be as many parody petitions.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on January 17, 2013, 05:02:35 PM
Now they're just being dicks. After being compelled by the courts to honor an FOIA request regarding the FBI's policy concerning GPS tracking of US citizens in light of US vs. Jones, The Man released 111 pages that were completely redacted. As I mentioned the other day, the last two administrations have subjected us to secret law. The other day it was creating a labyrinth of contradictory rules to keep the courts out of their business.  In this instance it's an example of interpreting their way around any problem and refusing to disclose the process; all for our own good, of course.

In other words, "we've discussed it with our lawyers and determined that the bill of rights doesn't apply in this instance. Unfortunately, explaining how and why that's the case might be harmful to you so we're going to keep it to ourselves. It's OK, though, you can trust us."

(https://i.imgur.com/3P72Y.png)
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: antigoon on January 17, 2013, 05:12:31 PM
That seems like straight up mockery to me.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Scorpion on January 19, 2013, 12:23:52 PM
Wow. :|
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: theseoafs on January 21, 2013, 09:33:09 AM
Christ.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Super Dude on January 21, 2013, 05:53:38 PM
I didn't get to watch the inauguration because I was at work, but hey:

https://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/22/us/politics/climate-change-prominent-in-obamas-inaugural-address.html?hp&_r=0

Quote
Climate Change Given Prominence in Obama’s Address
By RICHARD W. STEVENSON and JOHN M. BRODER
WASHINGTON — President Obama made addressing climate change the most prominent policy vow of his second Inaugural Address on Monday, setting in motion what Democrats say will be a deliberately paced but aggressive campaign built around the use of his executive powers to sidestep Congressional opposition.

“We will respond to the threat of climate change, knowing that failure to do so would betray our children and future generations,” Mr. Obama said, at the start of eight full sentences on the subject, more than he devoted to any other specific area. “Some may still deny the overwhelming judgment of science, but none can avoid the devastating impact of raging fires, and crippling drought, and more powerful storms.”

The central place he gave to the subject seemed to answer the question of whether he considered it a realistic second-term priority. He devoted scant attention to the subject in the campaign and has delivered a mixed message about its importance since the election. Mr. Obama is heading into the effort having extensively studied the lessons from his first term, when he failed to win passage of comprehensive legislation to reduce emissions of the gases that cause global warming. This time, the White House plans to avoid such a fight and instead focus on what it can do administratively to reduce emissions from power plants, increase the efficiency of home appliances and have the federal government itself produce less carbon pollution.

Mr. Obama’s path on global warming is a case study in his evolving sense of the limits of his power and his increased willingness to work around intense conservative opposition rather than seek compromise. It is a far cry from Mr. Obama’s 2008 pledge to heal the planet and a reflection of recalibrated strategy — and more realistic expectations — as he embarks on his second term.

The centerpiece will be action by the Environmental Protection Agency to clamp down further on emissions from coal-burning power plants under regulations still being drafted — and likely to draw legal challenges.

The administration plans to supplement that step by adopting new energy efficiency standards for home appliances and buildings, a seemingly small advance that can have a substantial impact by reducing demand for electricity. Those standards would echo the sharp increase in fuel economy that the administration required from automakers in the first term.

The Pentagon, one of the country’s largest energy users, is also taking strides toward cutting use and converting to renewable fuels.

Mr. Obama’s aides are planning those steps in conjunction with a campaign to build public support and head off political opposition in a way the administration did not the last time around. But the White House has cautioned environmental activists not to expect full-scale engagement while Congress remains occupied by guns, immigration and the budget.

Still, Mr. Obama has signaled that he intends to expand his own role in making a public case for why action is necessary and why, despite the conservative argument that such changes would cost jobs and leave the United States less competitive with rising powers like China, they could have economic benefits by promoting a clean-energy industry. In addition to the prominent mention on Monday, Mr. Obama also used strong language in his speech on election night, referring to “the destructive power of a warming planet.”

Those remarks stood in contrast to Mr. Obama’s comments at his first postelection news conference, when he said he planned to convene “a wide-ranging conversation” about climate change and was vague about action. He is also expected to highlight his plans in his State of the Union address next month and in his budget plan soon afterward.

Beyond new policies, the administration is seeking to capitalize on the surge of natural gas production over the past few years. As a cheaper and cleaner alternative to coal, natural gas gives the administration a chance to argue that coal is less economically attractive, as well as being a greater source of harmful emissions.

After the defeat in 2010 of legislation that would have capped carbon emissions and issued tradable permits for emissions, Mr. Obama turned to regulation and financing for alternative energy. Despite the lack of any comprehensive legislation, emissions have declined roughly 10 percent since he took office, a result both of the economic slowdown and of energy efficiency moves by government and industry.

The administration is already discussing with Congressional Democrats, some of whom are leery of the issue because their states are home to coal businesses, how to head off a Republican counterattack on the new regulations. Democrats are paying particular attention to the likelihood of Republicans employing a little-used procedure to block new regulations with a simple majority vote.

Democrats in the Senate are also girding for a battle when Mr. Obama nominates a new head of the E.P.A. The agency, which has been excoriated by Republicans as a job-killing bureaucracy, would take the lead in setting the new regulations.

The approach is a turnabout from the first term, when Mr. Obama’s guiding principle in trying to pass the cap-and-trade bill was that a negotiated legislative solution was likely to be more politically palatable than regulation by executive fiat.

Now there is a broad expectation that he will follow up his first big use of the E.P.A.’s powers to rein in emissions — proposed rules last year for new power plants — with a plan to crack down on emissions from existing power plants.

According to estimates from the Natural Resources Defense Council, emissions from current coal-fired plants could be reduced by more than 25 percent by 2020, yielding large health and environmental benefits at relatively low cost. Such an approach would allow Mr. Obama to fulfill his 2009 pledge to reduce domestic greenhouse gas emissions by about 17 percent from 2005 levels by 2020, the group says.

“There’s a really big opportunity, perhaps bigger than most people realize,” said Dan Lashof, director of the N.R.D.C.’s climate and clean air program.

The regulatory push will be particularly important because Mr. Obama has little prospect of winning as much money for clean energy as he did in his first term, with Republicans now in control of the House.

Despite the renewed attention to climate change following Hurricane Sandy and record-high temperatures in the continental United States last year, there is little sign that the politics of the issue will get any easier for Mr. Obama.

But Anthony Leiserowitz, a specialist on climate change communications at Yale University, said a recent survey found that people across party lines, including 52 percent of Republicans, support taking action to reduce global warming.

“Obama is not running for election again, and in a sense that frees him,” Mr. Leiserowitz said. “There are a lot of calls for him now to hold that national conversation and say to the American people, ‘We’re seeing these impacts, we’re vulnerable, we need to be taking much more significant action to prepare ourselves and reduce our risks in the future.’ ”

:superdude: says: That last paragraph makes me pretty happy. That's the reason I voted for him for the second term, because I thought in a way it would help him get his agenda through easier because he'd learned a lot, and it would help him counteract the lame duck effect.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on January 21, 2013, 10:33:11 PM
I've always been intrigued by moral panics. As soon as I heard about rainbow parties (which I sure as hell never got invited to  >:(), I started finding no end to the amusement brought about by silly myths created to scare parents. Every couple of months or so I'll see a link at the bottom of some page describing, say, 7 Terrifying Teen Trends You Need to Watch Out For, and I always have to read them. In this instance it's a link from FOX news to something called Mommy Noire; how could it not be bad ass?

Of those 7 trends, 6 of them involved ways to get high that don't involve real drugs (the seventh was planking). These include such winners as drinking Robitussin, having your friends strangle you, overdosing on supplements and pouring vodka straight into your eye (I suppose that's more appealing to kids than taking your vodka rectally or vaginally).  Bath salts were also mentioned since they're still mostly legal.

What fascinates me about this is that it's a direct consequence of the war on drugs and the just say no culture instilled in kids today. Some people just have a natural tendency to want to catch a buzz sometimes, and they'll usually find some way to do it. Is a society where those kids resort to downing cough syrup or chocking the shit out of each other really an improvement over the one where they just fired up a bowl or two after school? When I grew up, kids would boost a bottle from one of the Rent's bars, or have an older friend score you a 12 pack of bad beer (Carling black label where I came from). At no point did we fear the consequences so much that we looked for intravenous methods to administer it rather than just drinking it.

This is not an improvement.

The real winner here was the first on the list, something called I-Dosing (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I-Doser). This seems like a lot of bullshit to me, but to each their own. Doesn't take much to get kids off, really. The article says that there's nothing inherently harmful about it, but it should be seen as a gateway to other drugs and is thus bad. As one might expect from somebody calling themselves Mommy Noire, this completely misses the point. If it actually does work, then your kid's getting off in a safe manner and he's not blowing his allowance on peyote.  Win/Win.

Which brings us to what really bugs me about this whole thing. Kids want to find some way to alter their perceptions (as do some of us adults). It doesn't have to be harmful, although we as a society want to make sure that it is. When it just isn't, we need to find some other way to discourage it. The moral here isn't about keeping anybody safe. It's about keeping them in line and thinking like they're supposed to. That's why K2 was scheduled before it occurred to anybody to see if it was even harmful. The buzz is the harm. And in the mean time, much like little Brianna getting knocked up because it's easier to preach abstinence than responsibility, little Trevor's going to OD on purple drank while hanging from the garage seeking that oh-so awesome hypoxia buzz.

But at least he's not smoking dope!
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Ben_Jamin on January 23, 2013, 05:34:23 PM
Just had a thought...If Religion is supposed to be spiritual and its corrupted, not only the CC but every Religion, then is it losing its Spiritualness.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on January 25, 2013, 06:33:54 PM
So cops get to issue their own warrants now:

Quote
When Golden Valley Electric Association of rural Alaska got an administrative subpoena from the Drug Enforcement Administration in December 2010 seeking electricity bill information on three customers, the company did what it usually does with subpoenas — it ignored them.

That’s the association’s customer privacy policy, because administrative subpoenas aren’t approved by a judge.

But by law, utilities must hand over customer records — which include any billing and payment information, phone numbers and power consumption data — to the DEA without court warrants if drug agents believe the data is “relevant” to an investigation. So the utility eventually complied, after losing a legal fight earlier this month.

Meet the administrative subpoena (.pdf): With a federal official’s signature, banks, hospitals, bookstores, telecommunications companies and even utilities and internet service providers — virtually all businesses — are required to hand over sensitive data on individuals or corporations, as long as a government agent declares the information is relevant to an investigation. Via a wide range of laws, Congress has authorized the government to bypass the Fourth Amendment — the constitutional guard against unreasonable searches and seizures that requires a probable-cause warrant signed by a judge.
https://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2012/08/administrative-subpoenas/all/?utm_source=Contextly&utm_medium=RelatedLinks&utm_campaign=Previous


Showing probably cause to a judge is clearly too much trouble, I guess. Best to leave it to the cops on the honor system.

As I've said time and time again, we're all fucked.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: hefdaddy42 on January 26, 2013, 05:20:20 AM
For those who care, I finally have a new blog post.

https://walkingthepathtoday.blogspot.com/
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Tick on January 29, 2013, 05:20:31 AM
So I just saw on the news that President Obama has new legislation laid out for immigration to make the path to citizenship easier.
Hmm...what do you think he has in mind? Give the border patrol pink slips?
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Cedar redaC on January 29, 2013, 07:32:11 AM
I think that is should be easier to become a legal citizen.

As a result, I think we should lock down our borders even tighter against people who come in illegally. I mean, it is illegal, after all.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Tick on January 29, 2013, 08:11:05 AM
I think that is should be easier to become a legal citizen.

As a result, I think we should lock down our borders even tighter against people who come in illegally. I mean, it is illegal, after all.
I just don't like the thought that we should reward people who break the law to be in the country by giving them them an easier path to be a citizen.
People who do it the right way should be rewarded with an easier path.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on January 29, 2013, 08:14:05 AM
So I just saw on the news that President Obama has new legislation laid out for immigration to make the path to citizenship easier.
Hmm...what do you think he has in mind? Give the border patrol pink slips?
Hyperbole aside, he's actually going the complete opposite direction with the border patrol. As they become more and more integrated with those Fatherland Security goons, they're becoming another wing of our national police. Their problem is that they're facing us rather than the Mexicans and those gawdawful Canadians.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Cedar redaC on January 29, 2013, 12:07:38 PM
I think that is should be easier to become a legal citizen.

As a result, I think we should lock down our borders even tighter against people who come in illegally. I mean, it is illegal, after all.
I just don't like the thought that we should reward people who break the law to be in the country by giving them them an easier path to be a citizen.
People who do it the right way should be rewarded with an easier path.
My thoughts exactly.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: robwebster on February 05, 2013, 12:42:59 PM
UK parliament just voted to legalise gay marriage. 400 for, 175 against. Very good news.

The Conservatives, who are basically sort of in power since they ate the Liberal Democrat party I voted for, were 130 for, 132 against. Just over three quarters of the against votes came from Tory MPs, just about representing a majority of the party. Less good. But it happened, and it's good, and the country's less prehistoric than it was when I woke up. Hurrah!
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: theseoafs on February 05, 2013, 12:47:47 PM
 :metal

On the same token, a vote for gay marriage in Illinois is likely to take place within the next couple weeks, with the senate president saying that it's reasonable to expect we'll have legislation before Valentine's Day.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on February 07, 2013, 09:15:18 PM
Just got through reading Chris Dorner's Manifesto. Pretty damned entertaining.

https://www.scribd.com/doc/124382446/Christopher-Dorner-s-Manifesto

I'm really kind of torn on the guy. On the one hand, he's a very angry and militant black man who's kept track of every single injustice he's perceived. Much of which is the sort of stuff that's just an unfortunate part of life, and letting it consume you like that is largely the act of a drama queen.  Not my kinda people.

At the same time, the picture he's portraying of the LAPD (and cops in general) is very accurate. I suspect there's a great deal of truth to what he says and any person with a conscience would be outraged by it all. The characteristics I described above are exactly what would make a person unable to tolerate seeing a cuffed and prone suspect being kicked needlessly. And of course reporting another officer for doing the kicking is exactly the sort of thing that'll end your LEA career PDQ.

In the end, if he wants to go around killing bad cops, more power to him. Going after their families is pretty uncool, though. My bigger problem with his actions is that he's made it impossible for most people to view him as anything short of deranged. The cops will say he's a maniac, thus avoiding any of his allegations, most of which are the sorts of things we all know go on (but many prefer to believe don't). Even if his goals are just, there's a right way and a wrong way to do things, and because his actions will be counterproductive to those goals, I have to call this the wrong way.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on February 08, 2013, 12:24:55 PM
For 10 years the government has been whining that probable cause is too much of a burden for them to have to deal with, and nobody seems to have the balls to question them on it. Now we've gotten to the point where even requiring reasonable suspicion "would be operationally harmful." According to our DHS overlords, their agents don't need any reason whatsoever to search your electronic devices.

An interesting aside here, just like the Geeksquad buys before them, within a year DHS will have the largest collection of amateur porn ever assembled.

DHS Watchdog OKs ‘Suspicionless’ Seizure of Electronic Devices Along Border (https://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2013/02/electronics-border-seizures/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+wired%2Findex+%28Wired%3A+Top+Stories%29&utm_content=Google+Feedfetcher)

Quote
The Department of Homeland Security’s civil rights watchdog has concluded that travelers along the nation’s borders may have their electronics seized and the contents of those devices examined for any reason whatsoever — all in the name of national security.

The DHS, which secures the nation’s border, in 2009 announced that it would conduct a “Civil Liberties Impact Assessment” of its suspicionless search-and-seizure policy pertaining to electronic devices “within 120 days.” More than three years later, the DHS office of Civil Rights and Civil Liberties published a two-page executive summary of its findings.

“We also conclude that imposing a requirement that officers have reasonable suspicion in order to conduct a border search of an electronic device would be operationally harmful without concomitant civil rights/civil liberties benefits,” the executive summary said.

The memo highlights the friction between today’s reality that electronic devices have become virtual extensions of ourselves housing everything from e-mail to instant-message chats to photos and our papers and effects — juxtaposed against the government’s stated quest for national security.

The President George W. Bush administration first announced the suspicionless, electronics search rules in 2008. The President Barack Obama administration followed up with virtually the same rules a year later. Between 2008 and 2010, 6,500 persons had their electronic devices searched along the U.S. border, according to DHS data.

According to legal precedent, the Fourth Amendment — the right to be free from unreasonable searches and seizures — does not apply along the border. By the way, the government contends the Fourth-Amendment-Free Zone stretches 100 miles inland from the nation’s actual border.

Civil rights groups like the American Civil Liberties Union suggest that “reasonable suspicion” should be the rule, at a minimum, despite that being a lower standard than required by the Fourth Amendment.

“There should be a reasonable, articulate reason why the search of our electronic devices could lead to evidence of a crime,” Catherine Crump, an ACLU staff attorney, said in a telephone interview. “That’s a low threshold.”

The DHS watchdog’s conclusion isn’t surprising, as the DHS is taking that position in litigation in which the ACLU is challenging the suspicionless, electronic-device searches and seizures along the nation’s borders. But that conclusion nevertheless is alarming considering it came from the DHS civil rights watchdog, which maintains its mission is “promoting respect for civil rights and civil liberties.”

“This is a civil liberties watchdog office. If it is doing its job property, it is supposed to objectively evaluate. It has the power to recommend safeguards to safeguard Americans’ rights,” Crump said. “The office has not done that and the public has the right to know why.”

Toward that goal, the ACLU on Friday filed a Freedom of Information Act request demanding to see the full report that the executive summary discusses.

Meantime, a lawsuit the ACLU brought on the issue concerns a New York man whose laptop was seized along the Canadian border in 2010 and returned 11 days later after his attorney complained.

At an Amtrak inspection point, Pascal Abidor showed his U.S. passport to a federal agent. He was ordered to move to the cafe car, where they removed his laptop from his luggage and “ordered Mr. Abidor to enter his password,” according to the lawsuit.

Agents asked him about pictures they found on his laptop, which included Hamas and Hezbollah rallies. He explained that he was earning a doctoral degree at a Canadian university on the topic of the modern history of Shiites in Lebanon.

He was handcuffed and then jailed for three hours while the authorities looked through his computer while numerous agents questioned him, according to the suit, which is pending in New York federal court.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: antigoon on February 12, 2013, 08:57:01 PM
The State of the Union rebuttal is always so funny.

"Everything that other guy said is a load of shit!"
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Super Dude on February 12, 2013, 09:02:45 PM
Apparently Dorner is dead.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: rumborak on February 24, 2013, 09:12:04 AM
The line between energy-efficient states and non-efficient ones runs, not surprisingly, along party lines:

https://news.consumerreports.org/home/2012/10/massachusetts-the-best-state-at-keeping-energy-use-at-bay.html
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Super Dude on February 24, 2013, 11:18:29 AM
I'm surprised by how well Michigan ranked.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: wasteland on February 25, 2013, 12:09:58 PM
Today I just want to leave my country and never come back. I am ashamed. :'(
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: rumborak on February 25, 2013, 02:27:12 PM
Ahh, that Tea Party:

(https://i.imgur.com/FNXzCWn.png)
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: wasteland on February 25, 2013, 02:31:35 PM
Ok, we have not gotten to that yet.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Scheavo on February 25, 2013, 02:38:32 PM
Today I just want to leave my country and never come back. I am ashamed. :'(

Huh? What happened today? Am I missing something?
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: wasteland on February 25, 2013, 02:42:21 PM
Today I just want to leave my country and never come back. I am ashamed. :'(

Huh? What happened today? Am I missing something?

I'm Italian.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Scheavo on February 25, 2013, 02:46:40 PM

Had to do some digging... preliminary election results?
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: wasteland on February 25, 2013, 03:02:57 PM

Had to do some digging... preliminary election results?

Well, the results came as shocking. After all that happened, all those years of shame I have to see one third of voters chose Berlusconi, who was 15% behind the left candidate just two months ago.

I had written a long paragraph on all the filth that that man did during the electoral campaign, but you can guess or find out on whatever international newspaper. I am just massively disappointed in my own country, in my own fellow citizen.

The demagogic 5 Stars Movement also reached a massive 25(low chamber)/24(high chamber) (to compare, the left and right coalition are tied at 29/30 both), a result I personally don't like at all. Many other on the web do, as the phenomenon itself was born and developed on the web.

The only news is that Italy doesn't have a government, and no stable (that is not just a provisory government to change the electoral law and vote again) government can possibly arise from the parliament that's been elected today. And dark times shall come from this, unless something changes, and I don't know what could.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: hefdaddy42 on February 26, 2013, 09:59:34 AM
Even the WWE can't stand Glenn Beck

https://livewire.talkingpointsmemo.com/entry/wwe-keeps-pressure-on-glenn-beck
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: KevShmev on February 26, 2013, 12:05:39 PM
Beck is a dope, and he probably doesn't know that much about Vince McMahon, because the minute he trashed them in public, he basically invited them to mock him at every turn.  Vince is an immature and spiteful man, and loves to mock and denigrate anybody who he feels did him wrong, so Beck is likely at the top of his hit list now.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: hefdaddy42 on February 26, 2013, 07:40:01 PM
Agreed.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: antigoon on March 06, 2013, 04:23:47 PM
Oh man I am loving this filibuster right now.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Super Dude on March 11, 2013, 08:04:21 PM
My brother told me today he's pro-global warming. He believes it's happening alright, and he's in full support of it continuing! :tup
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: theseoafs on March 11, 2013, 08:44:39 PM
On particularly chilly days in Chicago, I'm sometimes pro global-warming.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on March 12, 2013, 10:47:20 AM
I'm pretty cool with it. I find the notion that the Earth needs saving pretty amusing. It's man that needs saving from the Earth, and in that matchup, I think I'll root for Gaia.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Scheavo on March 12, 2013, 02:48:45 PM
We could pretty much fuck up things for most things living, though. It'll rebound, come back, and adapt, but I think it's wrong to think that only humans are in danger from human activity.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on March 12, 2013, 03:27:45 PM
That's an interesting point, and I certainly care about plants and animals. However, I suspect out active destruction of both outweighs the passive damage via human anti-environmental practices. I think the plants and animals would probably be better off with a hot planet and no humans vs. another couple centuries of status quo.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Super Dude on March 12, 2013, 04:07:59 PM
The hot planet bit will eventually get to Venus-like proportions, so probably not.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Scheavo on March 12, 2013, 04:47:07 PM
Perhaps, but regardless, there's still other effects than just a hot planet. CO2 also acidifies the ocean's, which at some point can cause a mass collapse of the ecosystem. EB, I'm not so sure what a rapid transition might do, but while it may be true that an overall hotter and humid planet might be better for some forms of life, the question is getting there. Life can slowly adapt to just about anything, but it can't reliably change quickly to a new environment. If the planet was getting gradually warmer, it would probably be okay. But what we're seeing is rapid change, and so I think that means life can find itself in too hostile of an environment. Not all planets like it warm.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Super Dude on March 12, 2013, 05:46:45 PM
Yeah, that was another point I wanted to get to. IIRC we've already had global warming-related extinctions, and I imagine it's only going to get worse as the changes really get under way.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on March 13, 2013, 01:22:17 PM
I haven't seen anything that leads me to believe we're in store for anything Venusian in magnitude. It seems to me that the Earth will wipe out it's biggest opponent long before it gets to that point. However, I suppose we will be around long enough to screw thing up pretty badly for the animal kingdom. It's a matter of whether we adapt more readily than they do, and while I'd bet on them, I doubt the difference would be great enough.

Still, in the end the Earth will rebound and life will survive. It won't trouble me too much if mankind isn't among the winners.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Super Dude on March 13, 2013, 01:35:51 PM
I dunno, I kinda like living.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on March 13, 2013, 01:36:57 PM
Interesting. And do you feel that climate change is happening so fast it might bring about your demise?
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Super Dude on March 13, 2013, 03:16:41 PM
If not mine, then at least my grandchildren's. Idk if you have kids or grandkids or anything like that, but even if you screw the rest of humanity, I'd at least like my own family to be safe (not that I find this alternative particularly savory either).
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Super Dude on March 17, 2013, 08:02:23 AM
I know y'all don't care much for environmental news pieces, but here's one I found interesting:

https://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/17/opinion/sunday/friedman-its-lose-lose-vs-win-win-win-win-win.html?hp&_r=0

It's about how the American system is broken and why that leads to environmental gridlock. The last paragraph on the second page is particularly interesting and rings true.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: theseoafs on April 02, 2013, 09:23:58 PM
I'm taking a philosophy course this quarter called "Disagreement".  Here's the course description, from my college's catalog (emphasis mine):

Quote
This course will examine three central areas of philosophy—epistemology, ethics, and political philosophy—through the lens of issues raised by persistent disagreement. We will consider questions such as the following. What is the connection between the possibility of disagreement and objective truth? When should disagreement with our peers lead us to doubt what we think we know? What is the line between intellectual arrogance and having the courage of our convictions? Does the persistence of moral disagreement show that morality is subjective? Should the political community be neutral between parties that disagree on basic questions of morality, religion and justice? When is and isn’t it acceptable to just agree to disagree?

Needless to say, some of my experiences here in PR drew me to this class. :lol
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Scheavo on April 03, 2013, 09:51:24 AM
Sounds like a course important for proper discussion.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Scheavo on April 03, 2013, 01:40:23 PM
Except you're talking about things from separate sources.     We might drift a bit if we continue on this, but suffice to say that my research has led me to believe the The Bible has only ONE source, and that is God.

I really don't see how you could say that. The Bible encompasses probably over a hundred authors, myriad edits, numerous languages, centuries, and even overt plain disagreement between authors (e.g. Peter vs. Paul). Unless you want to be totally blinders-religious, you have to concede that there's a distinct human element to the Bible. When you then grab passages from totally different eras and authors, you're combining noise with noise.

1.  That is all completely false, and has been proven so repeatedly.  If you're only going to troll P/R with your nonsense, you'll be banned from P/R the same as Omega was for doing the same kind of thing.
2.  Again, other than Tick's post, this is all getting WAY off topic.  Direct it back to the topic at hand.

Sorry, but this irked me too much. I want to know exactly what Rumbo said that was "completely false," as nothing he said looks in any way to be false, from any perspective. It really starts to bring up inconsistencies between what the Bible is purported to be, what the Bible actually claims to be, and why the Bible is supposed to be powerful. It's the new testament, a testament by people try to and demonstrate God exists, to testify on behalf of Jesus and his supposed divinity. To say that it is only the word of God, that it somehow has one author, is to basically try and wipe away with this fact, to try and do away with the very form of the Bible to try and maintain legitimacy.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: eric42434224 on April 03, 2013, 01:43:53 PM
Except you're talking about things from separate sources.     We might drift a bit if we continue on this, but suffice to say that my research has led me to believe the The Bible has only ONE source, and that is God.

I really don't see how you could say that. The Bible encompasses probably over a hundred authors, myriad edits, numerous languages, centuries, and even overt plain disagreement between authors (e.g. Peter vs. Paul). Unless you want to be totally blinders-religious, you have to concede that there's a distinct human element to the Bible. When you then grab passages from totally different eras and authors, you're combining noise with noise.

1.  That is all completely false, and has been proven so repeatedly.  If you're only going to troll P/R with your nonsense, you'll be banned from P/R the same as Omega was for doing the same kind of thing.
2.  Again, other than Tick's post, this is all getting WAY off topic.  Direct it back to the topic at hand.

Sorry, but this irked me too much. I want to know exactly what Rumbo said that was "completely false," as nothing he said looks in any way to be false, from any perspective. It really starts to bring up inconsistencies between what the Bible is purported to be, what the Bible actually claims to be, and why the Bible is supposed to be powerful. It's the new testament, a testament by people try to and demonstrate God exists, to testify on behalf of Jesus and his supposed divinity. To say that it is only the word of God, that it somehow has one author, is to basically try and wipe away with this fact, to try and do away with the very form of the Bible to try and maintain legitimacy.

I agree.  And to single out Rumby for his position, and no one else, is not fair.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: theseoafs on April 03, 2013, 01:58:29 PM
^Agreed, actually.  rumby's characterization of the Bible as being written by many authors in many languages, etc., is more or less agreed to be factual from a scholarly standpoint.  He added his own commentary with the "noise" bit, but this is a discussion board, after all.  Nothing he said has been "proven repeatedly to be completely false", and if the conversation was off-topic, more people than rumby were to blame for that. 
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Progmetty on April 04, 2013, 05:43:41 PM
Is anybody concerned with the North Korean situation? Didn't find threads about it.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Super Dude on April 04, 2013, 06:34:05 PM
Not terribly.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on April 04, 2013, 10:04:01 PM
The primary goal of any dictator is to stay in power. Attacking Japan or North Korea isn't conducive to that goal and Jong-un knows it. It's possible that he does something relatively small. Wouldn't surprise me if they're busy looking for a boat to sink. Enough to save face in front of his homies, but not so big as to warrant a retaliatory strike or upset Beijing. The missile prep is just dick waving to counter our dick waving.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Super Dude on April 05, 2013, 04:15:57 AM
Besides, if he ever steps over the line, all of NK will probably be flattened within a matter of hours.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Scheavo on April 05, 2013, 10:07:46 AM
Ya, people forget, America sorta ruined conventional warfare. That's why we've seen nothing but guerrilla and proxy wars for the past 60 year's. It's just suicide to actually declare War on the US.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on April 05, 2013, 12:56:40 PM
Fascinating read about the Soviet doomsday device, which curiously still remains active.

https://www.wired.com/politics/security/magazine/17-10/mf_deadhand?currentPage=all

The whole point of the doomsday machine is lost if you keep it a secret!  WHY DIDN'T YOU TELL THE WORLD!!!

Even more intersting is the actual intent behind it and the reason for its secrecy.

Quote
According to both Yarynich and Zheleznyakov, Perimeter was never meant as a traditional doomsday machine. The Soviets had taken game theory one step further than Kubrick, Szilard, and everyone else: They built a system to deter themselves.

By guaranteeing that Moscow could hit back, Perimeter was actually designed to keep an overeager Soviet military or civilian leader from launching prematurely during a crisis. The point, Zheleznyakov says, was "to cool down all these hotheads and extremists. No matter what was going to happen, there still would be revenge. Those who attack us will be punished."

And Perimeter bought the Soviets time. After the US installed deadly accurate Pershing II missiles on German bases in December 1983, Kremlin military planners assumed they would have only 10 to 15 minutes from the moment radar picked up an attack until impact. Given the paranoia of the era, it is not unimaginable that a malfunctioning radar, a flock of geese that looked like an incoming warhead, or a misinterpreted American war exercise could have triggered a catastrophe. Indeed, all these events actually occurred at some point. If they had happened at the same time, Armageddon might have ensued.

Perimeter solved that problem. If Soviet radar picked up an ominous but ambiguous signal, the leaders could turn on Perimeter and wait. If it turned out to be geese, they could relax and Perimeter would stand down. Confirming actual detonations on Soviet soil is far easier than confirming distant launches. "That is why we have the system," Yarynich says. "To avoid a tragic mistake. "
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Progmetty on April 07, 2013, 06:35:41 PM
Ya, people forget, America sorta ruined conventional warfare. That's why we've seen nothing but guerrilla and proxy wars for the past 60 year's. It's just suicide to actually declare War on the US.

Yep. And also ruined the terms guerrilla warfare by replacing it with terrorism.

https://www.wired.com/politics/security/magazine/17-10/mf_deadhand?currentPage=all

This is pretty awesome, I started skimming the article and couldn't stop til I read the whole thing.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: hefdaddy42 on April 09, 2013, 06:31:29 PM
Cool article, EB.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on April 12, 2013, 12:47:23 PM
So remember back when an undercover PETA goon videotaped plant workers at Tyson torturing chickens? Here's the end result of that:
https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20130410/01513722653/states-continue-to-make-photographing-taping-farms-crime.shtml

Quote
But a dozen or so state legislatures have had a different reaction: They proposed or enacted bills that would make it illegal to covertly videotape livestock farms, or apply for a job at one without disclosing ties to animal rights groups. They have also drafted measures to require such videos to be given to the authorities almost immediately, which activists say would thwart any meaningful undercover investigation of large factory farms.

So tell me, who runs this country again?
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on April 12, 2013, 04:25:25 PM
Alfred Anaya Put Secret Compartments in Cars. So the DEA Put Him in Prison (https://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2013/03/alfred-anaya/all/)

This is why I think prosecutors are scum. While I think pretty much everything about this case is bullshit, I can understand how he could be convicted. But for this silly woman to be excited that she managed to get 24 years federal time for someone who deserved probation just pisses me off. This is not serving the public interest.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: adace on April 13, 2013, 02:20:27 PM
Alfred Anaya Put Secret Compartments in Cars. So the DEA Put Him in Prison (https://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2013/03/alfred-anaya/all/)

This is why I think prosecutors are scum. While I think pretty much everything about this case is bullshit, I can understand how he could be convicted. But for this silly woman to be excited that she managed to get 24 years federal time for someone who deserved probation just pisses me off. This is not serving the public interest.
Even if he knew the compartments would be used for drug smuggling, 24 years is still an insane sentence. But then again, unnecessarily long sentences seem to be the norm in the U.S.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Scheavo on April 13, 2013, 02:34:03 PM
That's because there's money to be made by imprisoning people. Longer sentences means more money.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: adace on April 13, 2013, 02:41:44 PM
Makes sense.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on April 13, 2013, 02:44:40 PM
That's certainly part of it. There's also a large chunk of this population that gets off on being hardassed about crime. That's why the prosecutor in Kansas is excited about ringing him up for 24 years. That's the sort of thing that'll get her votes.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on April 15, 2013, 04:54:46 PM
In other news, 17 car bombs went off all over Iraq this morning, killing 33 and injuring hundreds. The world collectively shrugs.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Tick on April 18, 2013, 06:21:45 AM
(https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc1/554781_10152778065700515_1797986442_n.jpg)
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Super Dude on April 18, 2013, 08:32:19 AM
Election and re-election are pretty powerful incentives that voters should really think about utilizing to their maximum advantage (i.e. telling their local representative how to vote, not the president).
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: adace on April 18, 2013, 05:01:24 PM
The "justice" system fails yet again. https://freekeene.com/2013/04/18/rich-paul-found-guilty-juror-admits-we-didnt-want-to-break-the-law/ (https://freekeene.com/2013/04/18/rich-paul-found-guilty-juror-admits-we-didnt-want-to-break-the-law/)
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on April 18, 2013, 05:26:07 PM
The "justice" system fails yet again. https://freekeene.com/2013/04/18/rich-paul-found-guilty-juror-admits-we-didnt-want-to-break-the-law/ (https://freekeene.com/2013/04/18/rich-paul-found-guilty-juror-admits-we-didnt-want-to-break-the-law/)
It goes without saying that I think it's ridiculous. That said, it seems like the guy wanted to be a hero, and will now be a martyr, instead. Jury nullification is a pretty dicey thing to bet your life on. He would have been better served mounting a vigorous defense than trying to be a trailblazer.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: adace on April 19, 2013, 02:16:22 PM
The "justice" system fails yet again. https://freekeene.com/2013/04/18/rich-paul-found-guilty-juror-admits-we-didnt-want-to-break-the-law/ (https://freekeene.com/2013/04/18/rich-paul-found-guilty-juror-admits-we-didnt-want-to-break-the-law/)
It goes without saying that I think it's ridiculous. That said, it seems like the guy wanted to be a hero, and will now be a martyr, instead. Jury nullification is a pretty dicey thing to bet your life on. He would have been better served mounting a vigorous defense than trying to be a trailblazer.
[/quote
Yeah, good point.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: MetalMike06 on April 25, 2013, 10:50:41 PM
https://youtu.be/qkbJETUz20E
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Super Dude on April 26, 2013, 05:55:46 AM
Jesus Christ, I'm outta here. I'll send y'all a postcard from Israel.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on April 26, 2013, 08:24:44 AM
I don't have audio at work, so I can't comment on the content of the video, but the whole thing about Miranda amuses me. It's really an odd decision. Everybody has the same rights, whether they know them or not. Miranda seems to be the one case where Johnny's required to hold a civics class on the side of the road. In almost all subsequent cases, the SCOTUS has determined that there's no obligation to teach people about their rights during police interactions. Don't get me wrong, I like Miranda and I'm glad it's law, but I certainly understand how peculiar it is.

At the same time, the public safety exception is flawed, IMO. There's nothing stopping Johnny from asking all the questions he wants, and inquiring about further plots and conspirators makes perfect sense, but allowing that to be used in court is troubling. Particularly because it probably isn't necessary in the first place. As it pertains to knucklehead Boston kid, they've got enough evidence to mainline him without using any of his testimony against him. My guess is that they were smart enough to limit their questioning during the 48 hours to stuff that wouldn't be used at trial. Otherwise, all they've done is provided him with grounds for appeal which will make them look particularly stupid.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Scheavo on April 26, 2013, 08:34:39 AM
I don't have audio at work, so I can't comment on the content of the video, but the whole thing about Miranda amuses me. It's really an odd decision. Everybody has the same rights, whether they know them or not. Miranda seems to be the one case where Johnny's required to hold a civics class on the side of the road. In almost all subsequent cases, the SCOTUS has determined that there's no obligation to teach people about their rights during police interactions. Don't get me wrong, I like Miranda and I'm glad it's law, but I certainly understand how peculiar it is.

That was maybe the best part of the clip. He showed one of the buffoons on FOx and Friends saying we shouldn't have read the guy his Miranda rights, because somehow, that's what gives him his Miranda rights.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on April 28, 2013, 04:12:11 PM
Man, Theodore Olsen has some stones. I've listened to probably 100 or so Supreme Court cases going back 60 years or so, and I've never heard a council willing to talk over a justice who was trying to bully him. While I wouldn't call it hostile by any means, this really is about the most dramatic 5 minutes you'll hear out of this setting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=or2IAjmEI9w#t=2642s

BTW, Scalia's argument is completely full of shit. The exact time when something becomes unconstitutional is either June 21, 1788 or December 15, 1791. A court decision only confirms it.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: antigoon on April 28, 2013, 05:03:27 PM
What a stupid ass question. Good for Teddy for standing up for himself.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Cedar redaC on April 29, 2013, 08:47:00 PM
Man, today marks one month until I leave on my LDS mission. It's crazy how fast the time has passed leading up to it.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Perpetual Change on May 04, 2013, 09:13:59 PM
Man, today marks one month until I leave on my LDS mission. It's crazy how fast the time has passed leading up to it.
Where are you going?

I heard LDS can go pretty much anywhere they want on their missions.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: theseoafs on May 04, 2013, 10:20:07 PM
If I'm not mistaken, I think it's the opposite -- mission locations are more or less assigned to people.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Cedar redaC on May 05, 2013, 10:00:56 PM
Theseoafs is pretty much correct. Basically, future missionaries submit paperwork (physicals, identification, immunization records, etc.) that goes to the church office buildings in Salt Lake City. There, the Quorum of the 12 (one of the presiding bodies in church) make an assignment that is approved by the president of the church.

By the way, I'll be going to Sydney Australia and teaching in Korean.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on May 05, 2013, 10:12:55 PM
That seems like a pretty good gig (relatively speaking, I suppose). WTG.  :tup
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Cedar redaC on May 05, 2013, 10:24:14 PM
Thanks, I'm so stoked.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Progmetty on May 09, 2013, 08:40:29 AM
Sad (https://www.alternet.org/drugs/why-cops-bust-down-doors-medical-pot-growers-ignore-men-who-keep-naked-girls-leashes).
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on May 09, 2013, 09:00:20 AM
A few thoughts: For one thing, cops in the drug raids are told what to do. Their supervisors orchestrate the raids and they're carried out in groups. This happens as there's beau coup dolleros to be made in drug busts, both in seized property and grant money. The cops investigating the 911 calls are acting on their own, and making their own decisions. Fuck, I hate cops, but even I know that every one of them would have loved to rescue those girls. They just didn't have any reason to suspect anything of the sort. If you think about it, Johnny comes across nekkid people all the time--fun and games. His notion was probably that he was going to advise the people to keep their sex games indoors and out of view of the neighbors. If they don't answer the door, then they move on. Thankfully (yes, even in this case), he couldn't just barge into their home when nobody answered the door.

While unfortunate, all the way around, it's pretty understandable how this could happen.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Progmetty on May 09, 2013, 09:07:24 AM
That makes sense and you're right, but I was generally more sad about that old marijuana activist lady.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on May 09, 2013, 02:13:17 PM
https://washington.cbslocal.com/2013/05/07/2-va-boys-suspended-for-using-pencils-as-guns/

Way to go, America!
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Super Dude on May 11, 2013, 01:50:21 PM
The world's going to shit. I want to leave.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Scheavo on May 11, 2013, 02:53:13 PM
What do you mean going to shit? That would imply we were someplace actually great.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on May 13, 2013, 02:53:04 PM
https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20130512/20494523050/bakersfield-ca-law-enforcement-follow-up-beating-possibly-intoxicated-man-to-death-seizing-witnesses-cell-phones.shtml

So here we have an interesting conundrum. Everybody knows my feelings about cops, so there's no reason to delve into 9 of them beating an unconscious man to death. It's the seizure of the phones that's interesting. The truth is, they're obligated to confiscate evidence of a crime. Hell, even I agree with that. The concern is, as the article suggested, allowing the suspects in the crime to take all of the evidence isn't what I'd call a shrewd move. This begs two important questions. Should the cops be trusted to investigate themselves? What's the public's right to know, and how can that be served?

Two things come to mind for me. First, there are several aps that stream video to the cloud in realtime. Anybody who's going to film bad cops doing naughty things should use one. If the video's already online as soon as you hit stop, problem solved. The other option would be to find a different agency to hand the video over to. This was particularly problematic as it was state and county cops involved in this particular incident. Here in Texas it wouldn't be a problem, but those folks in Bakerfield didn't really have anyplace to turn.

Regardless, unless it turns out that somebody was smart enough to capture video and not get found out, I guess this will be another non-event in a couple of months. A couple of the cops will be suspended, a couple might even lose their jobs. No criminal charges will be filed.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Scheavo on May 14, 2013, 01:37:07 PM
 So here's one thing I don't understand about the IRS scandal:

People are saying that Obama's political opponents were targeted improperly by the IRS. But the classification these groups were applying for are not supposed to be political groups. So, if they were truly not political groups, how could the IRS target them for their politics?

I think it says more about how fucked up the tax system is, and how abuse of these 501c4's is happening at an alarming rate. The IRS still did something wrong, but the way it's being reported just begs more questions, and those questions are what I find more scandalous.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on May 14, 2013, 01:53:57 PM
I know I'm wrong in thinking this, but the first thing I thought of when this broke was of course you pay closer scrutiny to the Tea party guys. Their whole reason d'etre is that the IRS is fucking us all. If you're an investigator, who do you pay attention to: the people who want more government and higher taxes for the rich, or the ones screaming for small government and the demolition of the IRS? It's like frisking the 90 year old Jewish woman at the airport while middle aged Uzbek's with bandoleers board first class.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Scheavo on May 14, 2013, 05:19:37 PM
The only thing I can find that's wrong about it is they don't' seem to have paid closer attention the left leaning groups that are abusing the system just as much. But they're also not as well known, The Tea Party got massive attention, so that's possibly one reason they gained the scrutiny.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on May 15, 2013, 10:48:16 AM
Quote from: Reuters
House of Representatives Speaker John Boehner raised the possibility of jail time on Wednesday for law violations in the growing scandal involving the Internal Revenue Service's targeting of conservative groups for extra tax scrutiny.

"My question isn't about who is going to have to resign, my question is who is going to jail over this scandal," Boehner, the top Republican in Congress, told reporters.
Jesus Christ, who are these people! I can think of a half dozen reasons to get rid of Obama's sorry ass, but the Republicans are just so embarrassingly bad and desperate it's just painful to watch.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: antigoon on May 15, 2013, 01:25:22 PM
edit; wrong thread
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on May 16, 2013, 11:33:52 AM
https://blogs.dallasobserver.com/unfairpark/2013/05/lessons_of_the_west_explosion.php
Good article about people in West, Tx. acting like hypocritical asshats. The upshot of it is that they're simultaneously screaming that they don't want any federal government regulation of their industry, but bitching because they're not getting their FEMA money fast enough.  :facepalm:

Quote
If you really don't believe in government and you really don't want even the minimal level of safety regulation -- the kind that would have told that fertilizer company to stop storing huge amounts of explosive chemical near a school, nursing home and apartment building -- then, fine. Show your commitment to your principles by not taking a dime from the government when the plant blows up.

There's a cost for some principles, right? The Times story reports that for the last 10 years Texas has suffered the nation's highest rate of workplace fatalities, more than 400 a year. The story says, "Fires and explosions at Texas' more than 1,300 chemical and industrial plants have cost as much in property damage as those in all the other states combined for the five years ending in May 2012.

"Compared with Illinois, which has the nation's second-largest number of high-risk sites, more than 950, but tighter fire and safety rules, Texas had more than three times the number of accidents, four times the number of injuries and deaths, and 300 times the property damage costs."

Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on May 17, 2013, 05:42:48 PM
https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20130512/20494523050/bakersfield-ca-law-enforcement-follow-up-beating-possibly-intoxicated-man-to-death-seizing-witnesses-cell-phones.shtml

So here we have an interesting conundrum. Everybody knows my feelings about cops, so there's no reason to delve into 9 of them beating an unconscious man to death. It's the seizure of the phones that's interesting. The truth is, they're obligated to confiscate evidence of a crime. Hell, even I agree with that. The concern is, as the article suggested, allowing the suspects in the crime to take all of the evidence isn't what I'd call a shrewd move. This begs two important questions. Should the cops be trusted to investigate themselves? What's the public's right to know, and how can that be served?

Two things come to mind for me. First, there are several aps that stream video to the cloud in realtime. Anybody who's going to film bad cops doing naughty things should use one. If the video's already online as soon as you hit stop, problem solved. The other option would be to find a different agency to hand the video over to. This was particularly problematic as it was state and county cops involved in this particular incident. Here in Texas it wouldn't be a problem, but those folks in Bakerfield didn't really have anyplace to turn.

Regardless, unless it turns out that somebody was smart enough to capture video and not get found out, I guess this will be another non-event in a couple of months. A couple of the cops will be suspended, a couple might even lose their jobs. No criminal charges will be filed.

https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20130515/18051923103/footage-lethal-beating-deleted-seized-phone-sheriff-asks-fbi-to-take-over-investigation.shtml

So it seems that when Johnny went to examine one of the siezed cellphone videos, it had mysteriously deleted itself. Color me shocked.  :lol

The good news is that the Sheriff turned over all of the evidence to the FBI and asked them to investigate what went down. Hats off to that guy. The likelihood is that Johnny wasn't tech-savvy enough to shred the video, so it's probably still easily retrievable, and if they felt like it needed to be deleted, it was probably fairly incriminating. If some cop did have the wherewithal to shred it, then the crime lab will get a time stamp for when the data was overwritten, and if it was after the cops took possession, there should be some felony charges coming from that. There were also a dozen of so witnesses, and with an outside authority investigating them, we should actually get a pretty clear picture of what went down for a change.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Progmetty on May 22, 2013, 06:14:02 PM
I'm dead tired and sick of the Egyptian political scene, this has been a non-stop mindfuck and heart ache since the revolution.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on May 23, 2013, 08:26:04 PM
Congressman Preps Bill to End Terror War Authority (https://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2013/05/schiff-aumf/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+wired%2Findex+%28Wired%3A+Top+Stories%29&utm_content=Google+Feedfetcher)

Quote
In the wake of President Obama’s big speech about restraining the war on terrorism, a member of the House intelligence committee is working on a bill to undo the basic authorities to wage it.

Rep. Adam Schiff (D-Calif.) is preparing a piece of legislation that would “sunset” the 2001 Authorization to Use Military Force (AUMF), a foundational law passed in the days after the 9/11. “The current AUMF is outdated and straining at the edges to justify the use of force outside the war theater,” Schiff tells Danger Room.

Repealing the AUMF would be the boldest restriction of presidential war powers since 9/11. Both the Bush and Obama administrations have relied on the document to authorize everything from the warrantless electronic surveillance of American citizens to drone strikes against al-Qaida offshoots that did not exist on 9/11. Getting rid of it is certain to invite fierce opposition from more bellicose members of Congress, who have repeatedly demagogued efforts to roll back any post-9/11 wartime authority, let alone the most important one.

Continued

There's actually quite a bit of intrigue here. If it were actually to get real attention, which I suspect is unlikely, it'd make for some strange bedfellows. Obama would certainly object, and the GOP would probably have to back him up, despite thinking he's the Islamic Manchurian Candidate. Would any Republicans actually want to undermine his authority to use power that they don't want him to have?

The more annoying thing is that while the AUMF has allowed all kinds of horrible bullshit to take place, and I genuinely disapprove of it, I probably have to hope it stays. I have a bad feeling that if they did manage to repeal it, they'd pass something far worse and much more generalized. And since they'd call it an improvement, which is isn't, we'd be stuck with it for even longer. I think we're at the point where nothing good can come from our government, regardless of the rightness of their intentions.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Scheavo on May 23, 2013, 09:08:51 PM
Obama might reject it due to it's timing, but considering he just called for it to be replaced with something that doesn't mean endless warfare, I think he'd be far more open to it than you're giving him credit for.

What Obama did today sorta flies in the face of the conventional pessimistic attitude that power always increases. He basically called for a reduction in Presidential power, and decried the AUMF in it's vagueness. While he could certainly go farther, it's a step in the right direction.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on May 23, 2013, 09:20:03 PM
What he calls for as a replacement is going to include all of the stuff that makes the current one bad. It'll just be touted as being better because it's not linked to an endless, bogus war. I guarantee you it will still include the right to use drones to kill brown people in other countries. It'll still allow for the use of the Military on US ground. It'll still allow for unfettered surveillance of US citizens without the need for those pesky warrants.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Super Dude on May 23, 2013, 09:35:59 PM
But is there a basis for this other than plain and simple cynicism about the US democratic process?
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on May 23, 2013, 09:44:41 PM
Nope, although I'd say that in this case my cynicism is directed more at Obama. However, I am right in this. You tell me, do you really think he'd allow the removal of those abilities, based on what you've seen of him thus far?
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: 73109 on May 23, 2013, 09:50:26 PM
I can't see it happening. The guy is by no means a dove and at this point, anything he says regarding peace just comes off as bogus. The worst part about all of this is the response by the mainstream democrat. Had a Republican been in office for all of this, the democrats would be up in arms and calling for all sorts of investigations. Now, because they can't criticize one of their own, they remain mostly silent.

The president spoke for how long and he didn't mention why the US killed a 16 year old with a dipshit father. When asking a high ranking member of the Dept. of Defense about the killing, the guy (I can't remember whom, I'm sorry) said "He should have had a more responsible father." Really? The idea that the majority of the "left" can accept that just because the guy saying it is on the right side of a bogus aisle is incredibly disturbing.

Sorry, I felt the need to post something considering this is my first post in the new PR.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on May 23, 2013, 10:05:50 PM
I believe you're referring to al-Awlaki's kid. https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=33224.0
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Scheavo on May 23, 2013, 10:09:43 PM
I can't see it happening. The guy is by no means a dove and at this point, anything he says regarding peace just comes off as bogus. The worst part about all of this is the response by the mainstream democrat. Had a Republican been in office for all of this, the democrats would be up in arms and calling for all sorts of investigations. Now, because they can't criticize one of their own, they remain mostly silent.

This is just 100% false. I hear liberals complain about the drone program constantly, including it's legality, its ethicality, etc. This includes mainstream liberal pundits and talk show hosts.

And Democrats are pussies, they never investigate anything. Even when Bush lied us into a war, and committed War Crimes, they didn't investigate things.

I really do hate this false equivocation. The left is not the right, and they are not the same just because they're both a political side.

Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on May 23, 2013, 10:14:30 PM
Uh, it was your pussy democrats that he was criticizing. He didn't use the word liberal once in his post.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Scheavo on May 23, 2013, 10:16:18 PM
I don't know who he's talking about, then. The liberals and Democrats in the media aren't being quite. The liberals and Democrats I see in office aren't being quite. No more quite than they were during the Bush years. It's still false.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on May 23, 2013, 10:19:10 PM
Quiet is a relative term. Yes, there are some pundits questioning the drone strikes, but you can't deny that Obama is getting a tiny percentage of the heat his predecessor got for continuing on the very same policies.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: 73109 on May 23, 2013, 10:23:13 PM
The left in the media have the ability to speak out because their jobs don't depend on being the current president's lap dogs. Rachel Maddow can speak out against drones because it is her job to not be stupid and point out what needs to be pointed out. I am talking about the majority of those in charge who don't have an issue with Obama's foreign policy. I talked to a few people who decried Rand Paul when he filibustered and talked about drone strikes for 10+ hours. He may be a Republican and I may think that the party as a whole is responsible for the decline of what was once somewhat right about the country, but even a blind squirrel trips over a nut every once in a while.

Basically:

Uh, it was your pussy democrats that he was criticizing. He didn't use the word liberal once in his post.

This.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Scheavo on May 23, 2013, 10:29:15 PM
Democrats barely put up a fight against Bush, they just rolled over like they normally do. Them doing the same now isn't a reversal.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: 73109 on May 23, 2013, 10:54:55 PM
I was mistaken. It wasn't a member of the Dept. of Defense, it was Robert Gibbs.

Also, Harry Reid said that Alwaki's kid was one of the three American citizens most deserving of death...wut?
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Scheavo on May 24, 2013, 07:52:25 AM
Was Al-walaki's son killed in a targeted manner, or was it a 'signature strike'? Not that it justifies it, but the targetting of him seems worse than the signature strike to me, even though both are horrible.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on May 24, 2013, 08:13:29 AM
A signature strike is still targeted. I don't understand your distinction.

I believe that his kid was collateral damage. However, his name would prevent him from being classified a civvy. I suppose this would be a case of "whoops, thank goodness he was evil."
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Scheavo on May 24, 2013, 08:41:57 AM
They don't target individuals in a signature strike though, they generally don't have a clue who they're striking at. That makes a big difference. If they intentionally killed his son because of who he was, that's a lot worse than him being collateral damage in a strike based upon some conception of bad behavior.

Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on May 24, 2013, 09:06:13 AM
They don't target individuals in a signature strike though, they generally don't have a clue who they're striking at. That makes a big difference. If they intentionally killed his son because of who he was, that's a lot worse than him being collateral damage in a strike based upon some conception of bad behavior.
It was clearly a mistake. They were after a different guy and claimed to have no idea Junior was present. To be fair, I'm not real keen on blowing up the guy they actually were after, either. He was a propagandist. That's not an operational position, and he was in no position to actually cause the deaths of anybody. If being a writer of pamphlets is enough to warrant assassination, then we're really pretty fucked at this point.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Scheavo on May 24, 2013, 03:39:15 PM
Oh I agree.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: XJDenton on May 29, 2013, 08:25:40 AM
Michelle Bachmann will not seek re-election in the midterms. This is a good thing.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: hefdaddy42 on May 29, 2013, 09:36:19 AM
Michelle Bachmann will not seek re-election in the midterms. This is a good thing.
I disagree.  That's one less crazy Republican of which to make fun.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: XJDenton on May 29, 2013, 12:35:43 PM
Making fun of them is all well and good, but I'd rather lose that privilege than see that nut case have an influence on policy.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Scheavo on May 29, 2013, 12:40:43 PM
Well, she was under investigation for misusing campaign funds, or something along those lines.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: rumborak on May 31, 2013, 06:05:09 PM
Hard to have any sympathy for that mother that got killed in Syria. To use a somewhat calloused reference, one does not just walk into Syria.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on May 31, 2013, 10:28:31 PM
Michelle Bachmann will not seek re-election in the midterms. This is a good thing.
Jim Graves deciding that he no longer wants to run now really cracks me up. Seems the guy gave no fucks whatsoever about actually being a Congressman; only about getting rid of her insane ass.  :lol
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on June 05, 2013, 10:24:33 PM
Report: NSA Was Granted Order to Snag Millions of Verizon Call Records for 3 Months (https://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2013/06/nsa-verizon-call-records/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+wired%2Findex+%28Wired%3A+Top+Stories%29&utm_content=Google+Feedfetcher)

Thank goodness Bush is gone. Oh, wait!

As I've said before, these are very bad people. Not only do we have this, the gag order in place suggests that this (or more) could be, and probably is, happening across all of the carriers. Nothing says freedom like secret surveillance it's illegal to talk about.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on June 06, 2013, 01:56:46 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/KBRwKR9.png)
Quote
This continues for four straight pages. First Amendment? A page and a half of redacted text before this concluding sentence:

    The laptop border searches in the ICE and CBP policies do not violate travelers' First Amendment rights as defined by the courts.

It's not even so much that I disagree with what they're doing, though I obviously do, but that we're not allowed to question whether or not it's lawful. What we're going to find in the NSA/Verizon case is that it's all perfectly legal because Obama's lawyers say it is, but they'll never have to actually explain why to any one. At most, a top-secret Senate oversight committee that'll rubberstamp it and assure us that we have nothing to worry about. Nobody else will have any legal standing. That's the government that Bush and Obama have created for themselves.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Super Dude on June 07, 2013, 07:05:57 PM
I found this on one of my FB friends' News Feeds, with the tagline, "So Fox News has essentially become a parody of itself?" I clicked it, thinking yeah, they can be pretty lol, but surely they haven't circled so far around that you can't even tell if they're serious anymore?

https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2013/06/07/on-national-donut-day-eat-donut-and-strike-blow-for-liberty/
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: hefdaddy42 on June 08, 2013, 03:37:00 AM
MERICA
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: rumborak on June 08, 2013, 07:15:51 AM
People like those wouldn't know liberty if it bit them in the ass.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: The King in Crimson on June 08, 2013, 09:35:06 AM
People like those wouldn't know liberty if it bit them in the ass.
Well, that's because biting on the ass is gay (and QUEER) and we all know how Jesus feels about that!
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on June 10, 2013, 03:48:23 PM
Quote from: change.gov
"Protect Whistleblowers: Often the best source of information about waste, fraud, and abuse in government is an existing government employee committed to public integrity and willing to speak out. Such acts of courage and patriotism, which can sometimes save lives and often save taxpayer dollars, should be encouraged rather than stifled. We need to empower federal employees as watchdogs of wrongdoing and partners in performance. Barack Obama will strengthen whistleblower laws to protect federal workers who expose waste, fraud, and abuse of authority in government. Obama will ensure that federal agencies expedite the process for reviewing whistleblower claims and whistleblowers have full access to courts and due process

 :rollin
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: rumborak on June 10, 2013, 08:05:46 PM
Jeez. That's almost comical in light of recent news.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Scheavo on June 10, 2013, 08:20:17 PM
In a slight defense, he never said what kind of whistle blower. There's more whistle blowers than simply national security.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on June 11, 2013, 12:19:07 PM
The irony never ceases:

Senator Russ Feingold Correctly Predicted How The Patriot Act Would Be Abused; Too Bad He Got Voted Out Of Office (https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20130610/17083023397/unfortunate-that-russ-feingold-got-swept-out-office-2010-as-his-predictions-have-come-true.shtml)

Quote
. . .since the beginning, he was the only Senator who consistently voted against the Patriot Act and various extensions and expansions. And, over the years since then he regularly warned us about secret interpretations of the law, including putting together a hearing more than five years ago on "Secret Law and the Threat to Democratic and Accountable Government."

Not only did people fail to take him seriously back then, they voted him out of office in the 2010 "tea party" wave. Considering how many in the Tea Party are now among those most upset about the revelations of NSA surveillance, they might regret that decision... especially since the man they replaced him with, Senator Ron Johnson voted for both the FISA Sunsets Extension Act of 2011 and the FISA Amendments Reauthorization Act of 2012 which extended the various provisions that we now know were secretly interpreted by the FISA Court to make these surveillance programs "legal."
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: antigoon on June 11, 2013, 04:06:20 PM
I can't believe he lost his seat. Well I can, I guess. But I can't.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on June 14, 2013, 10:58:02 AM

valedictorian talks about Jesus, has mic turned off (https://www.star-telegram.com/2013/06/08/4920053/joshua-valedictorian-talks-about.html)

This is pretty big news down here, and it's a damned entertaining story. This kid has played so many people with this stunt that nobody's really sure who or what his target was. What I do know is that FOX and Rush Limbaugh are running with it, and that was certainly part of his plan. In a nutshell, the gist of the story is correct. He talked about Jesus and they cut off his mic, in conflict with district policy. What's not getting much traction is that he'd shot his mouth off for some time that he was going to use his speech to rag on the school, the principal and the teachers. That's why the school was prepared to act so quickly. It seems pretty clear that both he and the school knew he was going to stray from his prepared remarks, and they both knew that the microphone would be shut off as soon as he did.

The Dallas Observer has suggested that he wanted to blast the school, and when that wasn't going to be possible, he cleverly switched to the Jebus line to rile up the Bible thumpers--quite successful. It's also possible that he wanted to preach the entire time, and tipped his friends off that he'd be going off on an angry tirade just to force a reaction from the school. Either way, he was definitely looking to rope in the conservative pundits, and he really hit it out of the park.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Fiery Winds on June 18, 2013, 08:04:44 PM
You may find this interesting, EB.

https://www.volokh.com/2013/06/17/do-you-have-a-right-to-remain-silent-thoughts-on-the-sleeper-criminal-procedure-case-of-the-term-salinas-v-texas/
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on June 18, 2013, 08:50:07 PM
You may find this interesting, EB.

https://www.volokh.com/2013/06/17/do-you-have-a-right-to-remain-silent-thoughts-on-the-sleeper-criminal-procedure-case-of-the-term-salinas-v-texas/
Yeah, I recall reading about Salinas a while back. The outcome isn't all the surprising. Miranda has always been something of a sore spot for the conservative wing of all the courts since it was decided. This takes it a bit further, though. When the Scalias of the world suggest that it isn't Johnny's responsibility to teach a civics class prior to a detention, I could see their point. The notion was that the right still existed, but it was up to you to know about it. This was a hot topic in dealing with the kid brother Boston bomber, and the reason I thought it was irrelevant at the time. Now it seems that might not be the case, after all.

From a practical standpoint now, I don't know if it changes much. At this point, the rule still applies. DON'T TALK TO THE FUCKING COPS! That was certainly Salinas's biggest boner. I don't think we're going to get to a point where a judge will compel you to under threat of contempt charges. I suppose that now a formal assertion might be in order, rather than "hey, go fuck your mother!" It might (or might not) make it to where that can be used against you in trial, but I'm not sure how much of a difference that would actually make. At this point, I think most jurors are going to be aware of the fact that silence shouldn't be incriminating, and a lawyer would still be able to explain that good, innocent people will often maintain silence for any number of reasons. Considering that jury trials are dog and pony shows anyway, I don't see a prosecutor mentioning your silence as being much of a gamechanger.. People who can afford good attorneys will have that explained in detail, and poor black people will still get representation so shoddy that overlooking that aspect of the interrogation will likely be the least of their concerns.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: rumborak on June 19, 2013, 03:03:46 PM
“He just talked about Christ and about Jesus being put up on the cross and dying and giving up his body and his blood for our sins so that we could be there.”

Is there a term called "theological narcissism"? I mean, I can see the point of Jesus having sacrificed himself to redeem humanity. But, I'm pretty sure he didn't die so that the guy can go to highschool.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Scheavo on June 21, 2013, 10:23:18 PM
Oh the irony of Google having a little note today about protecting your internet privacy...
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on June 21, 2013, 10:41:20 PM
At least Google provides for you their terms of service. The USA keeps theirs a state secret, and brands anybody who discloses them an enemy of the state. Google presents everybody with myriad means of opting out; pretty easy in fact. In comparison, it seems that we all opted into a complete lack of privacy at the moment of our births in this country. Rather than scoffing at Google for their suggestion, seems to me that we should be taking them seriously. When a billion dollar corporation who exists solely to gather intel on people says "watch out, those guys are fucking scary," I'd listem to them.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Scheavo on June 22, 2013, 12:54:46 PM
Yet, Google gave the Federal Government the information they asked for, and they were part of the very problem they're bemoaning. It's two-faced.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on June 22, 2013, 01:52:50 PM
That would actually mean something if compliance were optional. It's not. Aside from the fact that Google has an obligation to it's shareholders not to rock the boat by acting the martyr, do you really think the government wouldn't find numerous ways to come down on them if they ignored court orders?
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Scheavo on June 22, 2013, 04:05:32 PM
When it fits Google own interests, they have previously shown not to give a fuck what the laws of this country are. When they wanted to scan a ton of books, they just ignored their orders not to. They'll play the martyr when it comes to copyright infringement. They speak out in this issue publicly. But yet they'll just not make a peep because they're suddenly afraid of the government doing something against them? Please, Google is large and powerful enough to be able to get away with a hell of a lot more than the average joe is able to get away with, and come away basically unscathed.

You really do treat the US government as if it's much more malicious and sinister then it actually has shown itself to be. It has a ton of problems, yes, but we're not even close to living in Russia, or a state that is truly despotic.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on June 22, 2013, 05:06:10 PM
You really do treat the US government as if it's much more malicious and sinister then it actually has shown itself to be. It has a ton of problems, yes, but we're not even close to living in Russia, or a state that is truly despotic.
That's because we keep seeing it take these baby steps in that direction, and nobody seems to object. As we've seen time and time again, once you give somebody an authority or power, it's a bitch to get it away from them, and we're incrementally building that police state that you say we're not. Besides which, your president is insuring that we have no idea just what they're up to. Maybe he really isn't out to get us, but I don't share your faith in the man. There have been far too many acts designed with no other purpose in mind than to obfuscate the nature of the security apparatus that we're all subject to.

Quite simply, Obama has burned any credibility he might have had. He's reneged on every civil liberty claim he's ever made (and plenty of other stuff). He's built a legal barrier that prevents anybody from viewing or contesting his executive authority; including the courts. He's closed up ranks and made it so that anybody who thinks about pulling back the curtain has to be terrified of being labeled and enemy of the state. Yet he keeps coming out and saying "everything's fine! We're not spying on you. Your rights are protected and the entire process is completely transparent." This is stunningly FOS, yet people seem to buy into it.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Scheavo on June 22, 2013, 06:28:08 PM
I've never once denied that the trend of where we are going is troublesome - so please don't put words into my mouth that we're not building a police state, cause I have never said anything of the sort. I have simply said that we are not there yet, and that we shouldn't treat the government we do have as if it is the government we might get in the future. Tomorrow is not today.

I also haven't defended Obama on this issue. So I don't know why you treat me as if I have or am.

The only difference is, I'm not so pessimistic about government as you. I'm willing to concede that there are people in government who are well-intentioned, but misguided - instead of just lumping em all as some huge asshole hellbent on power qua power. That's a huge difference, and if this country as a whole was more inclined to think this way, I'd be willing to bet we wouldn't have the malfeasant government we currently have.

What you just said is extremely paranoid. How would Obama be out to get me? Why would he be out to get me? If it's for security purposes, that's a direct contradiction to the idea that he's out to get me. You can disagree with his methods, but you're ascribing an aim that is self-undermining to the claims you are making.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on June 22, 2013, 07:21:52 PM
I'm willing to concede that there are people in government who are well-intentioned, but misguided
Why assume their intentions are just? History is littered with examples of government curtailing liberty for it's own benefit, and while that might not be Obama's personal inclination, it could still be the aim of the government he serves.

Quote
What you just said is extremely paranoid. How would Obama be out to get me? Why would he be out to get me? If it's for security purposes, that's a direct contradiction to the idea that he's out to get me. You can disagree with his methods, but you're ascribing an aim that is self-undermining to the claims you are making.
Out to get us was clumsy wording on my part. It implies an offensive strategy. In fact, I think the government's interest with regard to it's subjects is actually defensive. When you raise a question as to the end results of the government's actions based on a premise of security, you presume that it's security against terrists. I don't think it is. Quite frankly, when it comes to maintaining a status quo that's so very beneficial to the very wealthy, we're the threat. I'd surmise that the security apparatus we're building has little to do with terrorism, and everything to do with public order.

And remember, it's only paranoia if you're wrong.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Super Dude on June 22, 2013, 09:01:42 PM
I will simply say that an elected government only reflects the electorate that chose it.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Scheavo on June 22, 2013, 10:07:46 PM
I'm willing to concede that there are people in government who are well-intentioned, but misguided
Why assume their intentions are just? History is littered with examples of government curtailing liberty for it's own benefit, and while that might not be Obama's personal inclination, it could still be the aim of the government he serves.

And yet, there's also examples of just the opposite. This country still has a fairly moderate middle class, despite the income gap between the rich and the poor. That fact alone gives this country a measure of stability and moderation that you won't find in those historical examples you're citing.

To echo Super Dude's point, we're getting what we deserve. It's still true that we could elect out the government you decry. I don't know exactly who "this government" is that you describe. It's not some single entity, it's a mishmash of interests and people, quite a few of them who are earnest, honest brokers, and quite a few of them who are corrupt assholes concerned about their own wealth - but no where do I see some single entity pulling all the strings.

Quote
Out to get us was clumsy wording on my part. It implies an offensive strategy. In fact, I think the government's interest with regard to it's subjects is actually defensive. When you raise a question as to the end results of the government's actions based on a premise of security, you presume that it's security against terrists. I don't think it is. Quite frankly, when it comes to maintaining a status quo that's so very beneficial to the very wealthy, we're the threat. I'd surmise that the security apparatus we're building has little to do with terrorism, and everything to do with public order.

The fact that it's the NSA, and not the FBI, indicates to me it's more misguided, fearful people who are thinking terrists are a problem. Tomorrow, it might not pragmatically make a horrible difference, but today it makes a helluva difference.


Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on June 22, 2013, 10:53:30 PM
The fact that it's the NSA, and not the FBI, indicates to me it's more misguided, fearful people who are thinking terrists are a problem. Tomorrow, it might not pragmatically make a horrible difference, but today it makes a helluva difference.
If it were just the NSA I'd be a lot less concerned. The sad truth is that it's all aspects of law enforcement, right down to the local cops. You think the FBI isn't writing administrative subpoenas out the wazoo? You think local cops aren't taking full advantage of the doors federal LEA crack open? Every time you establish a workaround for the 4th amendment, all LEA are going to jump all over it. When Obama has his council write an amicus brief to the Supreme Court urging them to allow investigators to seize cell data to put together realtime tracking of suspected terrorists, you can bet your ass that local cops will be using it to bust pot dealers far more than any national security uses that'll arise.

Christ, it occurs to me that I now rely on Antonin Fucking Scalia to protect my civil liberties more than a so-called democratic president. He's actually got a far better track record now. There's something extraordinarily wrong with that picture.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Super Dude on June 23, 2013, 05:19:43 AM
Don't like it? Write to your local congressman. Scheavo's right: even if you're right about the direction "this government" is going in (which I too would like to emphasize is not one big, single shadowy entity), then shouldn't that be all the more reason to take more advantage now of the fact that we still have input into it?
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: antigoon on June 23, 2013, 09:14:04 AM
On Meet the Press today, David Gregory asked Glenn Greenwald why he shouldn't be charged with a crime for aiding and abetting Snowden, and then implied that he's not a journalist.

WATCHDOG MEDIA

Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Scheavo on June 23, 2013, 12:57:01 PM
The fact that it's the NSA, and not the FBI, indicates to me it's more misguided, fearful people who are thinking terrists are a problem. Tomorrow, it might not pragmatically make a horrible difference, but today it makes a helluva difference.
If it were just the NSA I'd be a lot less concerned. The sad truth is that it's all aspects of law enforcement, right down to the local cops. You think the FBI isn't writing administrative subpoenas out the wazoo? You think local cops aren't taking full advantage of the doors federal LEA crack open? Every time you establish a workaround for the 4th amendment, all LEA are going to jump all over it. When Obama has his council write an amicus brief to the Supreme Court urging them to allow investigators to seize cell data to put together realtime tracking of suspected terrorists, you can bet your ass that local cops will be using it to bust pot dealers far more than any national security uses that'll arise.

I could just as easily point to the bad pot laws that allow that to happen as the apparatus they might be using.

Plus, I haven't seen that happening much. Like I said, in the future, it might happen, but it's not happening today. And I see no reason to treat today as if it's tomorrow. As it stands, pot dealers are doing just fine, and there's no way the local cops could go after all of them and get much of anything done. Besides, that all assumes objections are raised, and that this programs stands the test of time.

Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on June 23, 2013, 01:04:03 PM
Don't like it? Write to your local congressman. Scheavo's right: even if you're right about the direction "this government" is going in (which I too would like to emphasize is not one big, single shadowy entity), then shouldn't that be all the more reason to take more advantage now of the fact that we still have input into it?
Setting aside the naive belief that we control our government, I can assure you that Pete Sessions in particular doesn't give a rat's ass what I think about civil liberties.



I could just as easily point to the bad pot laws that allow that to happen as the apparatus they might be using.

Plus, I haven't seen that happening much. Like I said, in the future, it might happen, but it's not happening today. And I see no reason to treat today as if it's tomorrow. As it stands, pot dealers are doing just fine, and there's no way the local cops could go after all of them and get much of anything done. Besides, that all assumes objections are raised, and that this programs stands the test of time.


It was a dealer that started the most recent foray into testing the constitutionality of GPS tracking. Moreover, as I keep saying, the police state is only one of two major concerns. The other is our inability to challenge that police state. You say that objections can be raised, and federal judges shrug their shoulders and say "man, I wish! (https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=33224.msg1488387#msg1488387)" While we're debating the ethics of spying on citizens, we're losing the ability to do anything about it once a decision is reached.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Scheavo on June 23, 2013, 03:04:45 PM
You beg the question of what can be done about surveillance, if you think that the drug laws in this country are beyond changing.

The decision is already beyond 'our control'. The judges are in place, the legal question posed. All there's left to do is wait.

The solution to both problems is just as likely. It requires the voters to wake up. It's not a naive belief that the citizens of this country can control the government, it's one based upon historical fact. We have a citizen army, one that will almost assuredly stand up for our democratic rights.



Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Implode on June 25, 2013, 11:34:28 PM
So how about this stuff happening in Texas right now? It's all abuzz on the internet. Something about not letting a woman filibuster or something?
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: wasteland on June 26, 2013, 12:59:53 AM
More about changing vote record timestamp to conceal the fact that the vote had been carried out after the legislature finished.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on June 27, 2013, 05:07:15 PM
So it seems that our DHS overlords are running some drug interdiction. Not too surprising. They're also using those DHS badges to get around any search warrant requirements. Can't say I'm surprised by that, either. Looks like they're basing their searches on the suspiciousness of leaving Colorado or California. Honestly, doesn't surprise me.

I'm pointing this out because it's a nice convergence of a lot of little things. Obama's war on pot. DHS not giving a shit about the 4th amendment. Authority given to protect us from irrelevant terrorist threats being used for smalltime domestic criminal matters.

I suppose getting jerked around for a couple of hours by militarized federal cops is only a problem if you have something to hide. And people wonder why I keep talking about this becoming a police state.

https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20130619/18242823539/pilots-want-to-know-why-dhscbp-are-searching-their-planes-without-warrants.shtml
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: SystematicThought on June 28, 2013, 12:24:13 AM
Has anyone been paying attention to the Trayvon Martin trial?

The prosecution's star witness (the girl on the phone with Trayvon) ended up not being such a great witness after all. Between three statements, each one had a different account, and apparently she cleaned up some of what Trayvon had said to her on the phone regarding Zimmerman.

The sad turn of events regarding her testimony was that when asked to read the letter she wrote to Trayvon's mother regarding what happened that night, they found she can't read (it was either she can't read, or she can't read cursive) and the defense grilled her over it.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on July 08, 2013, 03:49:26 PM
https://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/07/us/in-secret-court-vastly-broadens-powers-of-nsa.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

Pretty nice article on the FISA court and the secret law we're all subject to. The NYT is pretty much calling them the new SCOTUS, except without all of that fairness and objectivity the Supreme Court is so well known for.

No big surprise here, but the DoJ has just issued a filing basically telling us all to mind our own damn business and leave the FISA Court alone. https://gigaom.com/2013/07/08/justice-dept-defends-secret-rulings-in-new-spy-court-filing/

It's pretty much like I've been saying all along. The Constitution and the body of laws that we all know have been largely superseded by a new set of laws that we're prohibited from knowing anything about, so shut up and eat your pine-cone!
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on July 08, 2013, 05:56:00 PM
So Rick Perry announced he won't be running for reelection. This is awesome. Not because we'll get somebody better; no chance. Because the Republican primary will be a laugh riot. Four people will spend 4 months trying to see who can be the most batshit insane conservative to ever live. Every conservative agenda point will be far too mainstream for this race. Build a wall separating Mexico? Fuck that. Landmines. Secede from the United States? Bullshit. Invasion.

Seriously, I'd bet a few bucks that one of them supports using the TANG to bomb targets in Mexico, if there are any takers.   :rollin
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: 73109 on July 08, 2013, 07:09:01 PM
That has to be an awesome site to see from a comical perspective. I never even thought about local politics in bat-shit states...
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on July 08, 2013, 08:20:04 PM
Well, to be fair, Texas hasn't been batshit very long at all, and quite honestly, I'm not even sure if it is yet. To be clear, there certainly are some ultraconservative crazoids running around, but I don't think we've gotten to the point yet where they're taken very seriously. Texas hasn't been that conservative very long, and I think a lot of the good ole boys will be plenty spooked by what they see this campaign season. They'll still vote for them, but they'll be sketchy about it.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: rumborak on July 08, 2013, 09:30:19 PM
I wonder whether Huntington will run again. Not that he has any chance in going through the primary process, but he seemed the most normal.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: carl320 on July 09, 2013, 08:12:40 PM
Meanwhile, in Indiana:

https://www.wndu.com/home/headlines/Same-sex-couples-seeking-marriage-could-be-charged-214804041.html (https://www.wndu.com/home/headlines/Same-sex-couples-seeking-marriage-could-be-charged-214804041.html)

 :|
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: rumborak on July 09, 2013, 09:00:49 PM
The amount of retardation is stunning.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: The King in Crimson on July 09, 2013, 09:57:20 PM
I wonder whether Huntington will run again. Not that he has any chance in going through the primary process, but he seemed the most normal.
I doubt it.

He barely made a dent in the state he focused all his attention on during the primaries, so I think another attempt would be him just throwing money down the drain.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: rumborak on July 10, 2013, 03:16:37 PM
The Boston bomber pleads not guilty. Wtf, that doesn't even make sense.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Super Dude on July 10, 2013, 03:18:03 PM
No indeed, but I'm interested to know how he's planning to argue that. I have only one possible idea, and even that seems like such a stretch that calling it a longshot is generous.

Edit: One article reading later, I will say at least this in his defense: that WMD count is total fucking baloney, no matter how serious the damage from those explosives was. It was bad, it killed people, but that doesn't mean you can equate it with a fucking H-bomb.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: rumborak on July 10, 2013, 03:51:02 PM
Yeah, that bugs me too. Exploding pressure cookers are not WMDs, not by a long shot.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on July 10, 2013, 04:52:13 PM
Yeah, I posted something about that a while back. Under federal law, which is naturally stupidly broad, anything that goes boom and kills more than one person is a WMD, regardless of their originally designed function. That includes fireworks, IIRC.

As for pleading not guilty, why not? If The Man didn't offer him a deal, and why would he, then what's the point of pleading guilty? Here are a few good reasons no to:


On an unrelated side note, I had an acquaintance who got rung up on some serious drug charges a while back. Mainly it was her boyfriend, but she was in the wrong place at the wrong time. She plead guilty without an offer on the table, on the hopes that the judge would show some leniency. Dumbshit thing to do. A whole lot of people have wound up serving long sentences for trivial matters because they plead guilty on that misguided assumption. The only reason to do The Man's job for him is if you know you'll get a deal out of it. Otherwise, make him earn every bit of what he gets from you.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Super Dude on July 10, 2013, 05:03:49 PM
The Man, the Man, the Man.

I actually wasn't really of the impression that Dhzokar Tsarnaev was much of a pedestal-y guy in all of this. I dunno why, but since they were ID'd I sorta got this feeling that his brother wrung him into it. Aiding and abetting, or something to that effect.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on July 10, 2013, 05:43:11 PM
I think that's very likely the case, and as I recall, so do most people here. Another point item I should have included is the possibility that this opens up avenues of pleading for leniency based on that very likely situation. It's probably better to make that point before a jury than a judge, and pleading guilty might preclude a jury from being involved in the sentencing. In his situation, you do everything you can to shoot for ADX Florence rather than Terre Haute as your eventual residence.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: rumborak on July 10, 2013, 06:18:08 PM
I was surprised the death penalty was brought up now. Massachusetts doesn't have it, I take it that means he's being tried federally?
I'd much rather see him in prison. First of all we don't need yet another martyr, and second of all in that weird prison code I would think terrorist are pretty damn low on the town pole too. Should be a "fun" experience for him.
And of course, I don't agree with the death penalty per se.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on July 10, 2013, 06:46:24 PM
IF they don't opt to mainline him, the feds will almost certainly supermax his ass (no pun intended), so he won't be a part of any code. That'll translate to $75k/year to keep him from getting buggered, and to insure that he pays for his crimes with his sanity. Seeing as he's still a youngster, he'd probably be better off taking the needle. Even with low inmate life expectancy, he'd still be looking at 50 years of solitary.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: rumborak on July 11, 2013, 08:59:46 PM
Looks like the immigration bill isn't going anywhere. Great job, GOP, great job.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on July 18, 2013, 05:13:32 PM
Holy fuck. It seems we've really hit rock bottom with the media. Jimmy Carter told a room full of reporters that in light of the NSA situation "America has no functioning democracy." We only know about this because der Spiegel ran a story about it. Not one mainstream American outlet saw fit to print that a former president essentially said we're living in a dictatorship. However, if you do a google news search, you will find 20 different stories about Carter's opinion on the God damned George Zimmerman trial.

For the one or two people interested, he also said he thought that Snowden's actions were probably in the best interest of democracy, basically saying that the people have every right to know what their government is doing to them.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: antigoon on July 18, 2013, 06:05:48 PM
I feel like I'm pretty jaded when it comes to this kinda stuff and even that shocked me.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Ben_Jamin on July 19, 2013, 10:51:20 AM
Holy fuck. It seems we've really hit rock bottom with the media. Jimmy Carter told a room full of reporters that in light of the NSA situation "America has no functioning democracy." We only know about this because der Spiegel ran a story about it. Not one mainstream American outlet saw fit to print that a former president essentially said we're living in a dictatorship. However, if you do a google news search, you will find 20 different stories about Carter's opinion on the God damned George Zimmerman trial.

For the one or two people interested, he also said he thought that Snowden's actions were probably in the best interest of democracy, basically saying that the people have every right to know what their government is doing to them.

It is despicable. I searched google for "Jimmy Carter Democracy" and the first result was a russian site.


Also this another one that went unnoticed...

https://rt.com/usa/carter-article-us-drones-677/
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on July 19, 2013, 12:22:21 PM
It's a real shame. I understand that people take him less seriously because he's Jimmy Carter, but this almost seems like a press blackout. It really does appear like a concerted effort to make sure nobody hears what he has to say.

Ironically, back when St. Reagan still had a few marbles left, he likely would have said the same thing. He was actually pretty keen on moral unambiguity. I wonder if he would have gotten the same treatment. All things considered, even he was probably too liberal for today's America, so it wouldn't surprise me.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on July 19, 2013, 02:01:13 PM
Damn, this is surprising, even coming from our DHS overlords.
TSA Now Searching Valet-Parked Vehicles (https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20130718/15314723857/tsa-now-searching-valet-parked-vehicles-utilizing-crack-security-team-composed-valets.shtml)

Quote
The report stated that the inspection involves looking into the trunk and engine and a "scan" of the inside of the car, which does not include opening the glove compartment or the console.

I'll just point out that a real cop can't even look in your trunk without probable cause. Ditto the glove box. Yet TSA is somehow allowed to let subcontracted valets go snooping around in there?  That'd be like the DHS paying the Merry Maids to go snooping around in your underwear drawer. I understand that they might feel inclined to call the TIPS hotline if they see something in the interior of the car, which is why you don't leave drugs lying about (with minor exceptions). Actually tossing your vehicle is a completely different matter.

I don't honestly know why I'm surprised by these things anymore. It just annoys me that this country has become so incredibly pussified.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: kirksnosehair on July 19, 2013, 02:27:18 PM
Holy fuck. It seems we've really hit rock bottom with the media. Jimmy Carter told a room full of reporters that in light of the NSA situation "America has no functioning democracy." We only know about this because der Spiegel ran a story about it. Not one mainstream American outlet saw fit to print that a former president essentially said we're living in a dictatorship. However, if you do a google news search, you will find 20 different stories about Carter's opinion on the God damned George Zimmerman trial.

For the one or two people interested, he also said he thought that Snowden's actions were probably in the best interest of democracy, basically saying that the people have every right to know what their government is doing to them.

It is despicable. I searched google for "Jimmy Carter Democracy" and the first result was a russian site.


Also this another one that went unnoticed...

https://rt.com/usa/carter-article-us-drones-677/ (https://rt.com/usa/carter-article-us-drones-677/)


From that article:


Quote
In his critical article "A Cruel and Unusual Record" published in the New York Times, Jimmy Carter said that with all the revolutions sweeping around the world, America should “make the world safer.” Instead, however, “America’s violation of international human rights abets our enemies and alienates our friends,”he argues.   

US’s government counterterrorism policies, Carter says, are now clearly violating at least 10 of the 30 articles written in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

“Revelations that top officials are targeting people to be assassinated abroad, including American citizens, are only the most recent, disturbing proof of how far our nation’s violation of human rights has extended,”Carter writes.

These violations of human rights began after the terrorist attack of 9/11. Having been "sanctioned and escalated by bipartisan executive and legislative actions,” Carter bemoaned a “lack of dissent from the general public".

"As a result, our country can no longer speak with moral authority on these critical issues," the 39th president wrote.

Carter says that “death of innocent women and children” within drone attacks on those who are said to be “enemy terrorists” are accepted “as inevitable”. However, that is something that “would have been unthinkable in previous times”.


He's got a point about moral authority.   Especially when these drone attacks kill innocents.  And we all know they are killing plenty of innocents in the process of whacking these terrorists.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on July 19, 2013, 02:44:57 PM
Which is why I cited St. Reagan. That guy had a real hard on for moral authority and would likely be of the same mindset as Carter. The difference is that people adore his senile ass and can't stand Carter. The wonderful irony of course being that Reagan would be absolutely mortified by modern day Republicans, despite their constant toadying of him.

I'll also point out that while neither of them were good presidents (albeit for completely different reasons), both of them were decent human beings; the last we've had in 30 years.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: rumborak on July 22, 2013, 06:29:34 PM
Impressive, UAE. Taking misogyny to a whole new level.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Super Dude on July 22, 2013, 06:35:35 PM
Did something happen?
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: rumborak on July 22, 2013, 06:41:30 PM
Norwegian girl gets raped, she reports it to the police. Gets jail for sex outside marriage.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Super Dude on July 22, 2013, 06:49:32 PM
 :|
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: rumborak on July 22, 2013, 06:53:26 PM
She got pardoned now due to international pressure. But, that's how laws work down there. They even asked her whether she wasn't just reporting it because she didn't enjoy it. Unbelievable.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: adace on July 23, 2013, 03:43:21 AM
Relevant: https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/12/alicia-gali-raped-uae-jailed_n_3263593.html (https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/12/alicia-gali-raped-uae-jailed_n_3263593.html)
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: rumborak on July 23, 2013, 10:41:47 AM
A friend of mine worked there for a few months and he confirmed it's a pretty nasty place. Oppressive, which sadly applies to a lot of Arab countries. I spent a week in Jordan and decided to get the hell out of there. The place was starting to get to me.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on July 23, 2013, 12:49:13 PM
Not to belittle her plight, but what did she expect? It's not like the treatment of foreign workers in the UAE is a well kept secret. Vacationers have run into plenty of trouble over there, as well.

Also, while it's fun (and often times correct) to bag on those backwards-ass Arabs, I always like to point out that there are a ton of Christians here would would love to institute their own form of Shaira. Hell, consider how that could have played out under President Santorum.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Phoenix87x on July 23, 2013, 08:17:39 PM
Relevant: https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/12/alicia-gali-raped-uae-jailed_n_3263593.html (https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/12/alicia-gali-raped-uae-jailed_n_3263593.html)

"After reporting the rape to police, Gali was told to sign a statement in Arabic, which she later learned was a confession that she had drank alcohol and had sex outside marriage"

Rule #1 of being arrested abroad:

Don't sign anything you can't read. Or better yet, don't sign anything at all.

Regardless its a shitty situation, none the less.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: rumborak on July 24, 2013, 09:09:28 AM
True true, but in any kind of just system, a confession signed by someone who doesn't even speak the language the confession is written in, is utterly worthless.

EB, regarding Sharia, you don't even need to look at a hypothetical President Santorum. Just look at the North Dakota abortion law. That's essentially Sharia law.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: antigoon on July 24, 2013, 04:23:10 PM
Amazing House debate just happened on CSPAN re: the Amash Amendment to the patriot act

Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: antigoon on July 24, 2013, 04:23:56 PM
aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand they didn't even allow a recorded vote.


edit: Actually, the recorded vote is going to happen later I guess. I know nothing about House procedure. Very interesting coalition forming, though. libertarian leaning Republicans and liberal Democrats vs the Democratic and Republican establishment.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on July 24, 2013, 04:51:45 PM
It's good that it's actually getting some coverage. I read yesterday that there was a competing version that was essentially a red herring. The other one looks like it does the same thing, but has enough loopholes to essentially codify everything the NSA wants to do. That seems to be the SOP nowadays. Pass a bill that claims to do one thing, while technically going far in the other direction.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: antigoon on July 24, 2013, 04:54:54 PM
WOW that was closer than I expected. Amash Amendment shot down 217 - 205.

Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: antigoon on July 24, 2013, 04:56:44 PM
Hopefully this coalition between left and right libertarians sticks.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: antigoon on July 24, 2013, 05:07:21 PM
(https://puu.sh/3KWBd.png)
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Super Dude on July 24, 2013, 05:34:16 PM
Yeah that's pretty disheartening to see in print.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: antigoon on July 24, 2013, 05:54:46 PM
here's the vote count

https://clerk.house.gov/evs/2013/roll412.xml

pelosi voted no :|

edit: not surprised by it, but lol
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on July 30, 2013, 07:13:28 PM
The Ethics of Saving Lives With Autonomous Cars Are Far Murkier Than You Think (https://www.wired.com/opinion/2013/07/the-surprising-ethics-of-robot-cars/)
This is a pretty nifty read. It raises several ethical issues regarding autonomous cars. At the end of the day, I find none of the concerns particularly compelling. Still, they are interesting angles to explore.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: GuineaPig on July 31, 2013, 07:01:02 AM
Yeah, an interesting take on the situation.

The main problem with self-driving cars is that ultimately a. they're still cars, and carry with them inherent risks and downsides to health, urban planning, global warming, etc. and b. they still do not provide anywhere near the capacity if rapid transit.  I don't see them as a serious solution for the biggest problems facing the current state of transport.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on July 31, 2013, 08:25:37 AM
The way those inherent risks get treated will be interesting. As it is now, we all accept that driving is dangerous. I might do something boneheaded that causes me or someone else to die while driving home. We all accept this risk. However, we're pretty quick to look for somebody to crucify when something goes awry. I suspect that once Google or BMW gets thrown into the mix, people will be much less willing to just accept that sometimes people die when driving. Just to throw some hypothetical numbers from that article out there, we have 32k "shit happens" deaths each year right now. If automated cars cut that number by 80%, we'll be looking at 6400 deaths, but rather than "shit happens," they'll all be Google's fault. That's unfortunate. Alas, even though Google's driving might be vastly superior to our own, nobody will be willing to accept that it's not their fault. Death's caused by our own carelessness or negligence are just easier to accept than the fluke death.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: GuineaPig on August 06, 2013, 04:59:11 AM
Some Canadian officials want airport-style security on trains. (https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/story/2013/08/04/quebec-via-rail-train-tighter-security.html)

I sort of wonder if it's a result of irrational fear, security companies' lobbying, or just a vast conspiracy to destroy public transit in North America that drives these sorts of campaigns.  Because it sure as hell isn't about safety.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Ben_Jamin on August 27, 2013, 04:11:41 PM
Illuminati world is being exposed. All their lies are being disclosed.  As Kevin McAlister from Home Alone said "This is it, don't get scared now."

Things are changing in our world and will continue to change,  I know this forum is open-minded, lets have an open discussion about these recent events that are occurring.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: rumborak on August 28, 2013, 09:29:36 AM
Err... what?
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: antigoon on August 28, 2013, 11:45:47 AM
illuminati, bro.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: hefdaddy42 on August 31, 2013, 04:21:59 PM
23 skidoo
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Ben_Jamin on September 01, 2013, 12:12:47 PM
Its interesting to me just how much craziness is going on about the gov't and its secrets being exposed. Then you got the syria talk Sunday,  then miley cyrus being the distraction from this being talked about, it didnt work. Its like wow, and now talks about our twin sun star, planet nibiru coming.

I look at the stars and the sky, listen to the earth. And she says she's sick and is ridding the disease, hence more natural disasters and more yet to occur.....

I don't know, its just interesting that is all. I find it a weird synchronicity.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Implode on September 01, 2013, 12:46:27 PM
Planet Nibiru is a bunch of nonsense.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: rumborak on September 01, 2013, 01:53:09 PM
I had never heard of this, and started reading on Wikipedia on it. I want the 30 seconds back.

That said, I was actually wondering how long until the next doomsday prediction. There was a bit of a lull after that sequence of failed predictions, but where there is a market, supply will appear I guess. Some people want doomsday predictions, so somebody will step forward with them.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: hefdaddy42 on September 02, 2013, 07:43:58 AM
planet nibiru coming.
WTF

Quote
The idea that a planet-sized object will collide with or pass by Earth in the near future is not supported by any scientific evidence and has been rejected as pseudoscience by astronomers and planetary scientists.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Ben_Jamin on September 04, 2013, 02:24:54 PM
Must be because I'm Native American that my worldviews differ vastly.

Many tribes from many cultures all know that something is going to occur, and it has. 2012 wasn't an end, it was the end of the calender which means a new beginning, it's only started. The mayan calender is like a wheel with many smaller wheels that turn, completing the bigger wheels cycle, this time the cycle of the wheel has completed and caused another bigger wheel to turn a peg, which effects the smaller wheels in the way they turn.

Anyways, It amazes me how dependant we are on technology that if a massive solar flare occured it'd cause a lot of people to panic and anarchy.

I don't know, guess I think about things too much.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: rumborak on September 04, 2013, 05:45:18 PM
Many tribes from many cultures all know that something is going to occur, and it has. 2012 wasn't an end, it was the end of the calender which means a new beginning, it's only started. The mayan calender is like a wheel with many smaller wheels that turn, completing the bigger wheels cycle, this time the cycle of the wheel has completed and caused another bigger wheel to turn a peg, which effects the smaller wheels in the way they turn.

(https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v410/rumborak/what_zps3b78e108.jpg)




(woot, I finally found a place I can use the pic!)
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: hefdaddy42 on September 04, 2013, 06:29:02 PM
Must be because I'm Native American that my worldviews differ vastly.

Many tribes from many cultures all know that something is going to occur, and it has. 2012 wasn't an end, it was the end of the calender which means a new beginning, it's only started. The mayan calender is like a wheel with many smaller wheels that turn, completing the bigger wheels cycle, this time the cycle of the wheel has completed and caused another bigger wheel to turn a peg, which effects the smaller wheels in the way they turn.

Anyways, It amazes me how dependant we are on technology that if a massive solar flare occured it'd cause a lot of people to panic and anarchy.

I don't know, guess I think about things too much.
Well, you apparently think about things like Nibiru too much.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Implode on September 04, 2013, 08:25:28 PM
People have been calling it the end of times for the past 2000 years. It's too bad that world will have to end one day because it means that those people will just be like, "I WAS RIGHT!"
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Scheavo on September 04, 2013, 11:33:15 PM
Well, even a broken clock is right twice a day.

The point about solar flares is a completely valid point. A massive one could cause the entire grid to go bonkers, and that would cause a lot of fucking havoc. End of the world? Hardly. But that doesn't mean everything's all peachy.

Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: rumborak on September 05, 2013, 06:35:25 PM
I don't even know what "end of the world" is exactly referring to.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: The King in Crimson on September 05, 2013, 09:48:44 PM
I don't even know what "end of the world" is exactly referring to.
Dogs and cats living together, mass hysteria.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: rumborak on September 09, 2013, 09:40:12 AM
Dennis Rodman must have a brain the size of a pea, seriously.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Super Dude on September 12, 2013, 05:35:56 AM
Amid all the crap going on right now, I thought this was pretty good news, being just about back to 2008 pre-crash levels: https://www.gallup.com/poll/151553/Gallup-Daily-Job-Creation-Index.aspx
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: hefdaddy42 on September 14, 2013, 05:59:39 AM
I thought this was a fascinating idea.

https://www.nature.com/news/did-a-hyper-black-hole-spawn-the-universe-1.13743
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Scheavo on September 20, 2013, 11:02:31 PM

Charging someone with a crime that can be proven in court, like drug use, is very different than suggesting that someone shouldn't get clearance because of things they said or the way they acted or anything else that might raise a red flag while not being a provable crime.  Given how often the race card gets played in general, I suspect a lot of people don't want to deal with the "You're only saying that because I'm black" backlash (especially from cretins like Al Sharpton), so they say nothing, which is the point I think Gary was making.  It's impossible to know if that was the case here, but it wouldn't surprise me. 

But how and why do those black people get charged with a crime in the first place? Because they were stereotyped by law enforcement. If the system is really so concerned about not offending black people, then procedures like stop and frisk wouldn't target them in such extremely unproportional amounts.

Wait, are you suggesting that all blacks who get arrested were so because they were stereotyped by law enforcement, not because they actually committed a crime?

When we're talking about drug use, it's more than likely.

https://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/04/us/marijuana-arrests-four-times-as-likely-for-blacks.html?_r=0 - just as an example.

Say a cop see's a car going 38 mph in a 35 mph zone. Most of the time, they'll do nothing about it. But if you're black, you're more likely to get pulled over for such a minor infraction just so jonny law can snoop and look for something. And no, I'm not just suggesting this is true only for black people. There's a lot of stereotypes cops use for these cases. But being black is one of them. As a white male, I have gotten pulled over once with short hair, and that was because a taillight was out. With long hair, I have been pulled over numerous times, for minor infractions, even once when I pulled into my drive way, because apparently adjusting your angle so you go in straight is "swerving", just because the cop was hoping for something.

Quote
As for stop and frisk, I found it interesting to hear a stat a while back that said that most blacks in the areas where stop and frisks happen are in FAVOR of the procedure, because they are often done in the most dangerous areas of cities, which often happen to be predominantly black, and many of the law-abiding blacks in those areas want their areas safer, so they are all for stop and frisk. 

https://nypost.com/2012/08/17/racial-split-in-stop-and-frisk-poll/

Quote
Blacks opposed it by a 69-25 margin, while whites favored it, 57-37, and Hispanics backed it, 53-45

That's the most information I could find regarding black peoples opinions of stop and frisk. 69-25 isn't even close.

There was also this: https://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/johncassidy/2013/08/scheindlin-stop-and-frisk-verdict-new-york-statistical-debate.html

Quote
And that was not all. Fagan’s analysis also showed that blacks and Hispanics, once they had been stopped, were more likely to be subjected to the use of force, even though the probability of the stop resulting in further action—like an arrest, or a summons—was actually lower in cases involving minorities than in those involving whites.


Quote
In other words, the argument could be made that blacks are targeted way more than whites, Latinos, Asians, etc. because the areas that are often targeted the most are high-crime areas that are largely populated by blacks.  I am not saying that some cops do not unfairly target blacks, cause you bet your ass some of them day, and they should not, but you have to take other factors into account when addressing stop and frisk as a whole.  As usual, it is never black and white, no pun intended. :)

From the latest article I linked to:

Quote
NYPD stops are significantly more frequent for Black and Hispanic citizens than for white citizens, after adjusting stop rates for the precinct crime rates, the racial composition and other social and economic factors predictive of police activity. These disparities are consistent across a set of alternate tests and assumptions.

Blacks and Latinos are more likely to be stopped than Whites even in areas where there are low crime rates and where residential populations are racially heterogeneous or predominantly White.

I'd be interested to see what sources you're using, but the ones I've found disagree entirely with what you've just said.

Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Super Dude on September 24, 2013, 07:19:02 PM
I live in a world of chaos where war exists and never dies.

Apparently I said this to my mother when I was four years old. I have no memory of the incident. But it's kinda true.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Scheavo on September 25, 2013, 10:33:58 PM
Actually, not so recently they managed to establish that brains all perceive them similarly.

I doubt this very much, only because many men are colorblind, and many women see colors men can't see. Maybe it's just the way you worded it. Cause I'd have no problem with saying that there are groups of people who see them similarly, but to say that all brains perceive them the same is obviously false.

This one time, I was putting food out into a service line. A girl from a good 40' away yelled at me because there was a pink mold on the carrots. I was holding the damn things in my hand, and I couldn't see a damn thing. The only way I could tell she wasn't on crack, or something, was by putting the carrots directly in front of a light source, and then I could just make out these tiny, nearly colorless hairs that were coming off of the carrots. There is no similiary between our experience of the same color.

Quote from: theseoafs link=topic=39207.msg1683960#msg1683960 date=1380164118
[quote author=cool34231a link=topic=39207.msg1683950#msg1683950 date=1380163169
But what if in the future we create an Artificial Intelligence so powerful that could analyze the Universe on all levels such as subatomical, extradimensional etc..,

We've only recently gotten around to making computers that answer Jeopardy! questions.  I think it's safe to say this is a long way off.


I'd have to dig up the book, but I think there's some formula that states this will never happen. Something about teh energy needed to do so would be so exceedingly large that it's either completely impractical, or impossible.

Then that's a matter of sensitivity to color, not actually seeing colors "differently." Besides, what evolutionary benefit would there be to seeing them differently?
[/quote]

How is something that is a colorless whiteness anything close to a vibrant pink? So pink that it can be seen 40' across the room? The brain is perceiving the same thing very differently.

And evolution doesn't always confer a benefit. If something doesn't prove fatal, it can evolve and spread. So long as you have someone around who can see  colors well, and warns you about that pink mold that could kill you, you're going to live, and pass on your genetics that don't let you see color all that well.

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/Where-Men-See-White-Women-See-Ecru-192104511.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetrachromacy

Quote
In humans, two cone cell pigment genes are located on the sex X chromosome, the classical type 2 opsin genes OPN1MW and OPN1MW2. It has been suggested that as women have two different X chromosomes in their cells, some of them could be carrying some variant cone cell pigments, thereby possibly being born as full tetrachromats and having four different simultaneously functioning kinds of cone cells, each type with a specific pattern of responsiveness to different wavelengths of light in the range of the visible spectrum.[12] One study suggested that 2–3% of the world's women might have the kind of fourth cone that lies between the standard red and green cones, giving, theoretically, a significant increase in color differentiation.[13] Another study suggests that as many as 50% of women and 8% of men may have four photopigments and corresponding increased chromatic discrimination in comparison to trichromats.[12] In June 2012, after 20 years of study of women with four cones (non-functional tetrachromats), neuroscientist Dr. Gabriele Jordan identified a woman (subject cDa29) who was able to detect a greater variety of colors than trichromatic ones, corresponding with a functional tetrachromat (or true tetrachromat).[14]

Variation in cone pigment genes is widespread in most human populations, but the most prevalent and pronounced tetrachromacy would derive from female carriers of major red-green pigment anomalies, usually classed as forms of "color blindness" (protanomaly or deuteranomaly). The biological basis for this phenomenon is X-inactivation of heterozygotic alleles for retinal pigment genes, which is the same mechanism that gives the majority of female new-world monkeys trichromatic vision.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Scheavo on October 10, 2013, 03:32:06 PM
This was horribly off-topic, so I'm gonna respond here. Doesn't seem to warrant it's own thread.

This is the definition I used:

Quote
trea·son
ˈtrēzən/
noun
noun: treason; noun: high treason; plural noun: high treasons

    1.
    the crime of betraying one's country, esp. by attempting to kill the sovereign or overthrow the government.

While not as explicit as a legal definition, the recurring theme in any definition is a betrayal of one's country, and I've got no problem suggesting that to be the case.

The second word of what you just gave me is "crime." Therefore, the legal definition is paramount.

Besides, betrayal of one's country is different then betrayal of the values a country was founded upon. If we take what your suggesting seriously, than there are many people who are diehard patriots who are betraying their country.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on October 10, 2013, 03:57:27 PM
Look, I'm not married to the word treason. If you want to offer up a different term to call a betrayal of one's country that doesn't constitute a crime, then go right ahead. Since I'm not prosecuting a case against him, I don't have a problem calling his actions treasonous until you offer up a better option.

And for the record, it's not a betrayal of values that bother me (although it's certainly the case here), since I think most American values are full of shit, but a betrayal of law. In this case the freaking Constitution. He has contributed to the complete undermining of the most basic law of the land, and people are giving him a pass on it for a variety of questionable reasons.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Scheavo on October 10, 2013, 04:37:05 PM
Call it a 'high crime,' because that's the only thing it could possibly be. I already gave that to you as an option, said it was a better option, and gave my position on why that shouldn't be a valid reason for impeachment in the given case. Betray of the law doesn't constitute a betrayal of the country. It is not treason. Hell, spying on the US for an ally isn't considered treason. Actual espionage!

I wouldn't say I'm 'giving him a pass,' I've just pointed out how he has constitutional obligations that are contradictory, in this case. Under the Constitution, "he shall take care that the laws be faithfully executed." He is also expected, at the same time, to defend the Country from attacks. Combine all of this, and you've put the President in a rock and a hard place.

The problem is with the entire system currently in place, and pointing to one man and tyring to put all the blame on him is counter-productive and unfair.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on October 10, 2013, 05:02:46 PM
For the record, I'm not in favor of impeachment or criminal charges anyway. Criminalizing governmental decision making would be a very bad precedent. I just think he's a liar, and a person who has betrayed both the Constitution and his oath to defend it.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Tick on October 22, 2013, 10:06:24 AM
*Please don't read if your not a fan of deep philosophical ramblings*
and I don't need a Snickers bar but thanks for asking. Continue at your own risk...

The world in which we reside weighs heavier on me with each passing year. I think a full life prepares us for death with greater ease. By the time we have lived a full existence, I think we have had about as much pain as we can endure and thus we are more ready to make an exit. I need to have faith that something better than this depressing planet is waiting for me. Don’t get me wrong, I am quite thankful for my friends and loved ones. It’s all that really matters in this disturbing world in which we live. We are surrounded by so much inherent evil all we can do is to try and find ways to escape it all. This world is defined by what we have and don’t have materially but the one thing that is certain is that our time is fleeting and it’s gone in the blink of an eye. All the new houses, cars, vacations, medicines to help us cope, and newest technology devises won’t save us from the inevitable. This will all fade away and we will be left with nothing if we believe this is all there is. The choices we make now will reward or haunt us for eternity. As I age my mortality has made me more acutely aware that we had to be born for a purpose beyond enduring the pain of this planet. When I see children snatched off the streets, or killed in our schools, terrorists seeking to force us to live in fear, corrupt leaders using as pawns in a big game for their own gain, I need to believe that someday I will know an existence that is free from these things that bind me. I believe in an ultimate freedom for those who seek it. Someday I hope to have my life line up with the truth in my heart.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Implode on October 22, 2013, 11:48:44 AM
I suppose that is one way to look at the whole of the world. I tend to be a little more optimistic; I think there is more good than evil in the world. And I think the world is more than just pain. But it all depends on personal experience. Yours is a valid outlook, I guess!
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on October 22, 2013, 12:26:38 PM
Learn to embrace existentialism.

Funny you mention the terrorists, because they had the exact opposite effect on me. Watching 110th floor skydivers on September 11 actually made me a much happier person. It really drove home the mentality of "shit happens." One day you're sitting at your desk, eating a doughnut and hitting on the cute receptionist with the sexy hose on, and the next thing you know you're deciding whether to burn alive or go kersplat all over West Broadway. That really sucks, but these things happen sometimes. That really drove home the fact that there isn't any purpose. Any claim that some God has a plan is full of shit, and if his plan involves having a plane flown into me, I'll pass.

Something else that greatly improved my mindset was something that my greatest hero said. If I didn't feel like I could kill myself whenever I wanted, I'd feel trapped and I'd be miserable. I totally get this and he's absolutely correct. Once you realize that you can live and die on your own terms, life becomes much more pleasant to manage.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Scheavo on October 22, 2013, 01:16:27 PM
You can't have the highs without the lows.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: sueño on October 22, 2013, 01:25:45 PM
I've never believed that experiencing tragedy is essential for appreciating good times.  I believe I could live for eternity having never experienced the bad things I have or anticipating the bad things that are bound to come and I'd be completely satisfied.

I guess I can see where some feel that you need the lows to appreciate the highs...but I have never had that philosophy explained in a way that makes sense to me.

There is no death, disease, wickedness, injustice, etc. that could make me appreciate life, health, goodness, justice, etc. more than I already do.  An even existence of love, health and happiness sounds pretty darn ideal to me.  :)  Even if we won't see it the way things are now.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on October 22, 2013, 01:35:59 PM
I've never believed that experiencing tragedy is essential for appreciating good times.  I believe I could live for eternity having never experienced the bad things I have or anticipating the bad things that are bound to come and I'd be completely satisfied.

I guess I can see where some feel that you need the lows to appreciate the highs...but I have never had that philosophy explained in a way that makes sense to me.

There is no death, disease, wickedness, injustice, etc. that could make me appreciate life, health, goodness, justice, etc. more than I already do.  An even existence of love, health and happiness sounds pretty darn ideal to me.  :)  Even if we won't see it the way things are now.
Not sure if that was directed at me or not, but it seems to relate to what I said more than Tick's post. In my case, it has nothing to do with appreciating the good things more. It's about providing a better sense of perspective between the good times and bad times.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: sueño on October 22, 2013, 01:43:13 PM
No - not directed at anyone in particular.  I've just heard such reasonings throughout my life and I honestly don't get it.

I guess I've just never really seen the need for "perspective" in discerning the value of good vs. bad times/things.  I'm basically a very appreciative, grateful person and I honestly have *no* need to lose something to be grateful for what I have.  I've seen people lose ones they love and I have no desire to see if I love my people "more" after they're gone (I've yet to lose someone very close to me in death...).

There are other qualities I'm lacking that I'm sure others abound in...but deeply appreciating what and who I have is not one of them.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Tick on October 22, 2013, 02:18:09 PM
Learn to embrace existentialism.

Funny you mention the terrorists, because they had the exact opposite effect on me. Watching 110th floor skydivers on September 11 actually made me a much happier person. It really drove home the mentality of "shit happens." One day you're sitting at your desk, eating a doughnut and hitting on the cute receptionist with the sexy hose on, and the next thing you know you're deciding whether to burn alive or go kersplat all over West Broadway. That really sucks, but these things happen sometimes. That really drove home the fact that there isn't any purpose. Any claim that some God has a plan is full of shit, and if his plan involves having a plane flown into me, I'll pass.

Something else that greatly improved my mindset was something that my greatest hero said. If I didn't feel like I could kill myself whenever I wanted, I'd feel trapped and I'd be miserable. I totally get this and he's absolutely correct. Once you realize that you can live and die on your own terms, life becomes much more pleasant to manage.
The only thing I will say is these are my feelings. My personal perpective.
I generally feel people who make the statement, "God has a plan" in regards to tragedy don't even have a clue what they mean by that. If God has a plan, its not something we are going to know about or understand. That's just a dopey thing that people say, with no basis as to why cause they are clueless.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: eric42434224 on October 22, 2013, 03:32:30 PM
Learn to embrace existentialism.

Funny you mention the terrorists, because they had the exact opposite effect on me. Watching 110th floor skydivers on September 11 actually made me a much happier person. It really drove home the mentality of "shit happens." One day you're sitting at your desk, eating a doughnut and hitting on the cute receptionist with the sexy hose on, and the next thing you know you're deciding whether to burn alive or go kersplat all over West Broadway. That really sucks, but these things happen sometimes. That really drove home the fact that there isn't any purpose. Any claim that some God has a plan is full of shit, and if his plan involves having a plane flown into me, I'll pass.

Something else that greatly improved my mindset was something that my greatest hero said. If I didn't feel like I could kill myself whenever I wanted, I'd feel trapped and I'd be miserable. I totally get this and he's absolutely correct. Once you realize that you can live and die on your own terms, life becomes much more pleasant to manage.
The only thing I will say is these are my feelings. My personal perpective.
I generally feel people who make the statement, "God has a plan" in regards to tragedy don't even have a clue what they mean by that. If God has a plan, its not something we are going to know about or understand. That's just a dopey thing that people say, with no basis as to why cause they are clueless.

No more or less clueless/dopey than someone who says "The choices we make now will reward or haunt us for eternity. As I age my mortality has made me more acutely aware that we had to be born for a purpose beyond enduring the pain of this planet"
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: hefdaddy42 on October 22, 2013, 04:12:06 PM
Eric, that is not helpful in any way, shape, or form.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Implode on October 22, 2013, 04:16:13 PM
Learn to embrace existentialism.

Funny you mention the terrorists, because they had the exact opposite effect on me. Watching 110th floor skydivers on September 11 actually made me a much happier person. It really drove home the mentality of "shit happens." One day you're sitting at your desk, eating a doughnut and hitting on the cute receptionist with the sexy hose on, and the next thing you know you're deciding whether to burn alive or go kersplat all over West Broadway. That really sucks, but these things happen sometimes. That really drove home the fact that there isn't any purpose. Any claim that some God has a plan is full of shit, and if his plan involves having a plane flown into me, I'll pass.

Something else that greatly improved my mindset was something that my greatest hero said. If I didn't feel like I could kill myself whenever I wanted, I'd feel trapped and I'd be miserable. I totally get this and he's absolutely correct. Once you realize that you can live and die on your own terms, life becomes much more pleasant to manage.
The only thing I will say is these are my feelings. My personal perpective.
I generally feel people who make the statement, "God has a plan" in regards to tragedy don't even have a clue what they mean by that. If God has a plan, its not something we are going to know about or understand. That's just a dopey thing that people say, with no basis as to why cause they are clueless.

I actually mostly agree with both of you guys. Good posts.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: eric42434224 on October 22, 2013, 05:06:39 PM
Eric, that is not helpful in any way, shape, or form.

No, but I wasn't aware I needed to be helpful.  I made a valid point, and it wasn't any more disrespectful than the post I was commenting on.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Scheavo on October 22, 2013, 05:58:45 PM
I've never believed that experiencing tragedy is essential for appreciating good times.  I believe I could live for eternity having never experienced the bad things I have or anticipating the bad things that are bound to come and I'd be completely satisfied.

I guess I can see where some feel that you need the lows to appreciate the highs...but I have never had that philosophy explained in a way that makes sense to me.

The  best way I can explain it is graphically/mathematically. Did you ever have a math class where they asked you to calculate the minimum and maximum for an equation? Well imagine a flat, horizontal line. That has no max or min, it has nothing. The minute you create either a max or a min, you immediately create the other. They're terms which cannot possibly go without the other, as they're points of reference compared to each other, or compared to the same thing at least.

To relate how a maximum or minimum mathematically can releate to the human conceptions of good and bad I would reference psychology. It's pretty well established that in a lot of ways, humans just learn to adapt to what they're given. Your body, for example, will learn to function on how many calories it is recieving (within reason), and your sensation of hunger is related to this. If all you had were equally awesome or equally bad events in your life, you would adjust to that level of goodness and badness, and that would just be what you think is normal. Studies have backed this up around he world; I remember watching one documentary about it ("Happiness") which interviewed this poor Indian rickshaw puller, who in measurable tests, was just as happy as the average American. There is no "good" or "bad" necessarily, there is just a relative positioning of the two. And, just like the mathematical comparison, one creates the other, and one cannot exist without the other. For you to experience something as good, you must have experiences of something else so you can actually understand and appreciate that experience as good, becuase it is not bad.

I have no idea if that makes much sense, or if it'll make sense to you, but that's my attempt at it anyways.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Tick on October 23, 2013, 07:09:29 AM
Eric, that is not helpful in any way, shape, or form.
That's just Eric being Eric. I'm through worrying about who agrees with me and who does not. I said how I feel. I don't need to defend it. His level of disrespect towards my thoughts isn't worth getting heated over.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: eric42434224 on October 23, 2013, 07:14:50 AM
Eric, that is not helpful in any way, shape, or form.
That's just Eric being Eric. I'm through worrying about who agrees with me and who does not. I said how I feel. I don't need to defend it. His level of disrespect towards my thoughts isn't worth getting heated over.

Just because someone disagrees with your views, doesn't mean it is disrespect, nor does it mean you have to take it personal.  But you always do...I guess that is just Tick being Tick.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Tick on October 23, 2013, 07:20:00 AM
Eric, that is not helpful in any way, shape, or form.
That's just Eric being Eric. I'm through worrying about who agrees with me and who does not. I said how I feel. I don't need to defend it. His level of disrespect towards my thoughts isn't worth getting heated over.

Just because someone disagrees with your views, doesn't mean it is disrespect, nor does it mean you have to take it personal.  But you always do...I guess that is just Tick being Tick.
Oh ok, cause I had no idea being refered to as "clueless/dopey" was a term of endearment! I guess its all good then! :tup
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: eric42434224 on October 23, 2013, 07:27:08 AM
Eric, that is not helpful in any way, shape, or form.
That's just Eric being Eric. I'm through worrying about who agrees with me and who does not. I said how I feel. I don't need to defend it. His level of disrespect towards my thoughts isn't worth getting heated over.

Just because someone disagrees with your views, doesn't mean it is disrespect, nor does it mean you have to take it personal.  But you always do...I guess that is just Tick being Tick.
Oh ok, cause I had no idea being refered to as "clueless/dopey" was a term of endearment! I guess its all good then! :tup

You do realize that I wrote that in response to YOU calling people with certain beliefs "clueless & dopey", right?  I was pretty sure that point would not be lost on you....but I was wrong.  You took it as a personal insult of some sort.  I merely pointed out that the basis for your beliefs, and the beliefs you criticized, are the same.  So to call those people and their beliefs "clueless and dopey" was blatantly hypocritical.  I thought my post was abundantly clear in that regard.
Also, just a bit of advice.....if you want everyone to think that you are "through worrying about who agrees with me and who does not......I don't need to defend it." you might want to stop showing you are indeed worrying about it and defending it by responding to posts disagreeing with you like this.
OK?  I have no personal issue with you, so please do not create one.  Thanks, and have a blessed day! :)
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Tick on October 23, 2013, 07:54:56 AM
Ok, Eric. You have a blessed day as well!
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: eric42434224 on October 23, 2013, 08:01:06 AM
Ok, Eric. You have a blessed day as well!

Thank you!   :)
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Tick on October 23, 2013, 08:07:26 AM
Ok, Eric. You have a blessed day as well!

Thank you!   :)
No prob. Truth is I have strong thoughts and opinions at times. I may think I'm always right , but no one ever is.  :tup
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: eric42434224 on October 23, 2013, 08:24:54 AM
Ok, Eric. You have a blessed day as well!

Thank you!   :)
No prob. Truth is I have strong thoughts and opinions at times. I may think I'm always right , but no one ever is.  :tup

As I have said before, you and I are more alike than either of us think.  :)
Now go home and get your f*ucking shine box!   :lol
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Tick on October 25, 2013, 07:00:58 AM
Here we go again....

Does anyone ever stop and meditate on their mortality? I guess I have always made a conscious effort not to. Maybe others do as well? Well for some reason last night I was deep in thought thinking about the big picture in life. I just turned 49 and it has my mind going to weird places I would rather not go. Understanding that my life is likely more that half over I started thinking about what really matters. My successes and failures. Have I done enough to help others, and myself for that matter.
I starting thinking of what would happen to me if something ever happened to my wife and daughter. My wife is the strong one that holds our unit together. The more I meditated on it the more I started to feel uneasy and fearful. Not a place I usually go.
Then lastly I pondered the thought of my own mortality. I thought to myself...one day it will all be over. The lights will go out and the inevitable will happen. I will be gone forever. Its such a short span of time we have been given. Have I squandered too much of it underachieving? I then thought about not knowing how I would go...peacefully, violently, slow and painful. These thoughts started to creep me out so I forced myself to take my mind elsewhere.
I guess I'm going through a change right now in which my perspectives are being magnified and my mind is going places it once did not.
Ok, my personal writing therapy session has come to a close. Time to go to my job to continue to fight the fight for a comfortable existence on this planet. Have a good day all!
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on October 25, 2013, 08:00:02 AM
I stopped pondering mortality 20, 25 years ago. Once I came to grips with the fact that everything they tried to teach me at Christian indoctrination school was made up, all of my concerns went away. Funny how things work sometimes. From my perspective, I'll no more care about being dead than I cared about not being alive for the first 13.798 billion years. I understand things are slightly different for you because of your daughter, but parents die all the time and kids get by. Yours will do just fine.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Scheavo on November 04, 2013, 11:16:54 AM
It sure does seem as if a lot of Wallstreet firms and banks are paying some pretty good fines lately.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: theseoafs on November 05, 2013, 03:24:26 PM
Came as a surprise to me since I've been busy mucking around in Europe, but the house of representatives in my home state of Illinois voted today to legalize gay marriage.  The senate has to vote on it and the governor has to sign it, but the senate's already voted for the bill once before and Pat Quinn has already voiced his support of the bill, so it looks like Illinois will be the 15th state with marriage equality. :tup
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on November 06, 2013, 05:07:02 PM
Ya know, attention to detail and just plain old common courtesy actually do still matter. My 15 minute drive home through lovely, scenic University Park was actually a 45 minute clusterfuck sitting in highway traffic because Obama decided to attend a fundraiser at some rich fuck's house in the Park Cities. Every time a president comes to town, it shuts down all of the streets around DAL, which is a fairly busy and congested part of town.  Now, I understand that the motorcade has cultural significance, and I certainly understand the need for security (although it wouldn't bother me much if it failed horribly in the next few hours). What I don't understand is why when security dictates a need to shutdown major thoroughfares in a major city for 30 minutes, they don't think to arrive at 4, or 6. Asshole today lands a couple of minutes after 5, turning rush hour for thousands of people into an absolute nightmare. Has nobody in his administration ever heard of "rush hour?" I have to surmise that he's never bothered looking out of his tinted windows long enough to see the disruption his motorcade causes, or he's just too oblivious to give a shit. In fact, at this point I suspect it's probably both. Like I said, attention to detail and common courtesy. This is just thoughtlessness.

BTW, President Dumbass usually had the decency to forgo the motorcade experience in favor of a helicopter. He flew in all the time, and disruptions were minimal and limited to the immediate takeoff and landing of AF1.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Tick on November 08, 2013, 07:56:41 AM
So for literally the last year and a half, the same 3 guys man the end of an exit ramp on my way to work. They take turns holding the homeless give me money sign each day. One guy each day, they are always there. Now while I'm not going to give them money to furnish there man cave I am considering donating some cardboard. There signs are looking awfully shabby lately.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on November 08, 2013, 08:16:45 AM
A friend of mine used to always beat those guys to the punch and hit them up for money. Before they get to our car, he'd hit them with "Dude, we're trying to get to Austin and we need a couple of bucks for gas." Panhandlers have a very keen interest in karma, so they're actually quite generous with their money.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Ben_Jamin on November 12, 2013, 12:01:21 PM
Here we go again....

Does anyone ever stop and meditate on their mortality? I guess I have always made a conscious effort not to. Maybe others do as well? Well for some reason last night I was deep in thought thinking about the big picture in life. I just turned 49 and it has my mind going to weird places I would rather not go. Understanding that my life is likely more that half over I started thinking about what really matters. My successes and failures. Have I done enough to help others, and myself for that matter.
I starting thinking of what would happen to me if something ever happened to my wife and daughter. My wife is the strong one that holds our unit together. The more I meditated on it the more I started to feel uneasy and fearful. Not a place I usually go.
Then lastly I pondered the thought of my own mortality. I thought to myself...one day it will all be over. The lights will go out and the inevitable will happen. I will be gone forever. Its such a short span of time we have been given. Have I squandered too much of it underachieving? I then thought about not knowing how I would go...peacefully, violently, slow and painful. These thoughts started to creep me out so I forced myself to take my mind elsewhere.
I guess I'm going through a change right now in which my perspectives are being magnified and my mind is going places it once did not.
Ok, my personal writing therapy session has come to a close. Time to go to my job to continue to fight the fight for a comfortable existence on this planet. Have a good day all!

I still ponder at times. Wondering why am I me? Why am I here at this moment?  Why am I alive, and is this current life, life? I've gotten to the point of almost tripping out where reality doesn't feel real?  I've thought these since I was about 7 on a drive to town or out of state. Thr more I pondered the more I understood things better that would help me continue living in this life we all share.I don't mind if you aren't religious but I do get concerned and sad when spirituality within is void, which are many people that happen to be white. All other races I've noticed all understand we are here and what needs to be. Hence why I feel the powers that be are destroying Spirituality, they tried with us natives and are trying with the middle easterners whom aren't going to take any shit.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on November 18, 2013, 01:00:27 PM
Well here's a good one:

US Government Says CIA Black Site Prisoners' Memory Of Their Own Torture Is Classified And Cannot Be Revealed (https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20131114/18010025251/us-government-says-cia-black-site-prisoners-memory-their-own-torture-is-classified-cannot-be-revealed.shtml)

Quote
Yes, the US government is arguing that it can torture people (though, of course, it won't call it that), but if you try to call them on it via various courts, domestic or international, the very people who were tortured are not allowed to present evidence of their own torture, because it would reveal classified information. Classified information like how the CIA tortured people.

I'm thinking of a domestic, logical extension of this. If you're some misguided Muslim who gets duped into planting a phoney bomb outside of some landmark by the FBI, when you go to raise an entrapment defense, the government could say that testifying about how you were entrapped would reveal classified information and is thus inadmissible. Not cool.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Ħ on December 08, 2013, 11:46:19 PM
William Lane Craig on Fox News (https://video.foxnews.com/v/2893567384001/how-can-i-be-sure-god-exists/?playlist_id=929831905001)
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Scheavo on December 12, 2013, 12:18:31 PM
Yay, more fuel for the fire of crazy conspiracy theories!

https://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/12/12/21872811-health-director-who-approved-obama-birth-certificate-dies-in-plane-crash?lite

I mean, obviously this was intentional because I'm sure she was about to reveal a conspiracy regarding Obama's birth certificate. There's no other possible explanation.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Prog Snob on December 12, 2013, 12:43:10 PM
William Lane Craig on Fox News (https://video.foxnews.com/v/2893567384001/how-can-i-be-sure-god-exists/?playlist_id=929831905001)

blah blah blah... This guy irritates me.  I'd rather watch Hitchens or Dawkins break his delusions and put him in his place. 
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Scheavo on December 19, 2013, 05:25:54 PM
I really, really wish people would learn what the fuck "free speech" actually means. It's not surprising that someone like Sarah Palin has no idea what's she's talking about, but unfortunately there are people who actually listen to her (apparently).
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: antigoon on December 19, 2013, 05:45:35 PM
see also: "censorship"
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Prog Snob on December 20, 2013, 05:59:18 AM
I really, really wish people would learn what the fuck "free speech" actually means. It's not surprising that someone like Sarah Palin has no idea what's she's talking about, but unfortunately there are people who actually listen to her (apparently).

But she can see Russia from her house.   :P  :lol
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Implode on December 20, 2013, 09:30:09 AM
Little known fact. She actually never said that. That was Tina Fey. :lol
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Ben_Jamin on December 20, 2013, 12:13:53 PM
This Duck Dynasty thing is the most stupid angerment I've ever seen. So its not okay for a guy to express his views on life, yet we hear all this vulgarity on the radio and award shows.....If Duck Dynasty gets sacked because of this then may jesus save us now.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: antigoon on December 20, 2013, 01:13:21 PM
Honestly his views about Jim Crow blacks were much more vile.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: KevShmev on December 20, 2013, 01:17:17 PM
This Duck Dynasty thing is the most stupid angerment I've ever seen. So its not okay for a guy to express his views on life, yet we hear all this vulgarity on the radio and award shows.....If Duck Dynasty gets sacked because of this then may jesus save us now.

Gay marriage is the new "Don't you dare say anything bad about it, or you will get vilified by everyone" hot topic.  Hell, I am in favor of gay marriage, but this new narrative that anyone who is against it is automatically a bigot is such a load of crap.

Granted, Robertson went way over the top with what he said.  Had he said he was against gay marriage and left it at that, shit probably wouldn't have hit the fan like it did, although GLAAD still would have made a stink about it, but since he went over the top, this is what happened.  So, he kind of brought it on himself.  And A&E has the right to hold their employees to whatever standard they want.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: antigoon on December 20, 2013, 01:26:27 PM
""I never, with my eyes, saw the mistreatment of any black person. Not once. Where we lived was all farmers. The blacks worked for the farmers. I hoed cotton with them. I'm with the blacks, because we're white trash. We're going across the field. ... They're singing and happy. I never heard one of them, one black person, say, 'I tell you what: These doggone white people' -- not a word!
"Pre-entitlement, pre-welfare, you say: Were they happy? They were godly; they were happy; no one was singing the blues," GQ quotes Robertson as saying."

Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Prog Snob on December 20, 2013, 01:31:44 PM
Little known fact. She actually never said that. That was Tina Fey. :lol

I know that, but the reference about the proximity of Alaska to Russia being her foreign policy experience is laughable.  I even saw the follow up interview with...I forget who it was.  Katie Couric.  Here it is. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gk8moOxzlGQ

She made herself look like a fool.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Scheavo on December 20, 2013, 06:38:16 PM
Little known fact. She actually never said that. That was Tina Fey. :lol

I know that, but the reference about the proximity of Alaska to Russia being her foreign policy experience is laughable.  I even saw the follow up interview with...I forget who it was.  Katie Couric.  Here it is. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gk8moOxzlGQ

She made herself look like a fool.

Ya, the only thing Tina Fey added was the "from her house" part. Sadly, the rest of it is true.

This Duck Dynasty thing is the most stupid angerment I've ever seen. So its not okay for a guy to express his views on life, yet we hear all this vulgarity on the radio and award shows.....If Duck Dynasty gets sacked because of this then may jesus save us now.

Most of that vulgarity doesn't diminish other people, call them sinner's, or equate them with animal fuckers. Personally, I could care less what some idiot who makes duck calls thinks about, well, anything, seeing as how I don't duck hunt - but it's a pretty far stretch to equate what you consider vulgar and offensive with disgust and denigration of fellow human beings. It is completely different.

I imagine Jesus is more concerned about the income inequality in this  country, as well as the use of military force and all the violence we perpetuate on fellow citizens and fellow human beings around the world.

Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Jaffa on December 20, 2013, 07:26:09 PM
I really, really wish people would learn what the fuck "free speech" actually means.

Would you kindly explain to me what free speech actually means and why it isn't applicable here? 

And for the record, I strongly disagree with everything Robertson said.  I'm just not sure he needs to be reprimanded for saying it. 
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: The King in Crimson on December 20, 2013, 07:58:17 PM
I really, really wish people would learn what the fuck "free speech" actually means.

Would you kindly explain to me what free speech actually means and why it isn't applicable here? 

And for the record, I strongly disagree with everything Robertson said.  I'm just not sure he needs to be reprimanded for saying it.
Would you be against Wal-Mart firing or reprimanding one of their employees for letting loose a string of expletives within earshot of customers? It's really the same kind of thing. Duck Dynasty Dude is out promoting the company he works for and supporting the product that they make. He's free to say what he wants and AE is free to reprimand him for it.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Jaffa on December 20, 2013, 08:11:03 PM
Agreed.  I'm not trying to attack A&E here.  As far as I'm concerned, they can suspend him for pretty much whatever they want.  They pay him to put on a show for them; if they don't like the show he's putting on, they shouldn't pay him to put it on anymore.  Simple enough.

But Scheavo's talking about free speech.  He seems to be suggesting that anti-gay sentiments should not be protected by free speech.  That's all I'm questioning here.  I feel like I'm not understanding him, so I thought I'd seek clarification.  :)
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: hefdaddy42 on December 21, 2013, 05:03:31 AM
I am 100% against what he said, but I don't fully understand A&E's perceived need to discipline him for it.  He was being the same guy that he is on the show.  Something like this was bound to happen eventually.  They are who they are.  It seems like they could have issued one of those "his views do not reflect the opinions of A&E" statements and been done with it.  A slap on the wrist to appease their advertisers, and no suspension so as not to rile up the fanbase.  As someone who lives in the south and knows a LOT of people who LOVE this show, I can tell you that it is all anyone is talking about around here, and facebook is blowing up over it.

The one who should be disciplined is whomever was allowed to set up an interview with this hillbilly for G-fucking-Q.  That had to have "disaster" written all over it.  That should be one open job in PR.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on December 21, 2013, 09:14:39 AM
If you look at it from a business perspective both sides are behaving exactly as they should. The rednecks are very well aware that A&E needs them a whole lot more than they need A&E. I suspect they feel fairly bulletproof and are behaving as such. As for A&E, they're trying to weather the storm as much as possible. They don't want to damage the goldmine they're sitting on, but it's only a goldmine if they have advertisers so they have to placate them as much as possible. A round of apologies, a temporary (as in a couple of weeks) suspension, and then quietly move on as if nothing ever happened.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Scheavo on December 21, 2013, 09:20:44 AM
I really, really wish people would learn what the fuck "free speech" actually means.

Would you kindly explain to me what free speech actually means and why it isn't applicable here? 

But Scheavo's talking about free speech.  He seems to be suggesting that anti-gay sentiments should not be protected by free speech.  That's all I'm questioning here.  I feel like I'm not understanding him, so I thought I'd seek clarification.  :)

Free speech is a legal immunity given to speech. It has nothing to do with social repercussions of one's speech. The govenment isn't knocking on Phil Roberts door, fining him or arresting him. THAT would be a free speech issue. All that happened is people have responded to what he's said, called it various things, and then supported, pushed and got him suspended from the TV Show he was on, which is owned by a network which has every legal right to do what it did.

Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Jaffa on December 21, 2013, 01:18:38 PM
Thank you for explaining.  I guess I just got a little confused when you responded to Ben_Jamin; you seemed to be suggesting that some things were okay to say while others weren't.  If that wasn't your intent, sorry for my misunderstanding.  :)
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: j on December 21, 2013, 07:47:46 PM
it's a pretty far stretch to equate what you consider vulgar and offensive with disgust and denigration of fellow human beings. It is completely different.

I don't think this is true; in fact I don't really see how those two things are different at all.  Except of course from the angle of, for example, a TV network trying to keep its advertisers who are experiencing social activism pressures.

You know now that I think about it, I'm not even sure what it means to "be offended" by something, because it seems like something one has to actually decide to do.  People say stupid things all the time, and I don't exclude myself from that.  But I don't think I'll ever be able to fathom the mindset of a person who is not only so fragile that they take deep personal offense anytime they hear something--even from a complete stranger--that they find distasteful, but also so self-centered that they need to make the world cater to their sensibilities.  At a very young age, most of us learn that in life you have to ignore things and just let them roll off you, and I'm not sure what happens to that.

Anyway as ridiculous as the situation is, I understand the cascade of events that is going on here, and the position that A&E is in.  But you have to admit that there's an additional dimension of amusement given the demographic that makes up the lion's share of this show's viewership.  I haven't even seen an episode of the show, but is there anybody in the universe who wasn't already aware of this dude's likely opinion on homosexuality, even if it hadn't yet been expressed so memorably in a magazine interview?

-J
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Lucien on December 21, 2013, 08:00:29 PM
I've never believed that experiencing tragedy is essential for appreciating good times.  I believe I could live for eternity having never experienced the bad things I have or anticipating the bad things that are bound to come and I'd be completely satisfied.

I guess I can see where some feel that you need the lows to appreciate the highs...but I have never had that philosophy explained in a way that makes sense to me.

The  best way I can explain it is graphically/mathematically. Did you ever have a math class where they asked you to calculate the minimum and maximum for an equation? Well imagine a flat, horizontal line. That has no max or min, it has nothing. The minute you create either a max or a min, you immediately create the other. They're terms which cannot possibly go without the other, as they're points of reference compared to each other, or compared to the same thing at least.

To relate how a maximum or minimum mathematically can releate to the human conceptions of good and bad I would reference psychology. It's pretty well established that in a lot of ways, humans just learn to adapt to what they're given. Your body, for example, will learn to function on how many calories it is recieving (within reason), and your sensation of hunger is related to this. If all you had were equally awesome or equally bad events in your life, you would adjust to that level of goodness and badness, and that would just be what you think is normal. Studies have backed this up around he world; I remember watching one documentary about it ("Happiness") which interviewed this poor Indian rickshaw puller, who in measurable tests, was just as happy as the average American. There is no "good" or "bad" necessarily, there is just a relative positioning of the two. And, just like the mathematical comparison, one creates the other, and one cannot exist without the other. For you to experience something as good, you must have experiences of something else so you can actually understand and appreciate that experience as good, becuase it is not bad.

I have no idea if that makes much sense, or if it'll make sense to you, but that's my attempt at it anyways.

Sorry for quoting an old post, but isn't that the exact same sentiment of Illumination Theory? "To really feel the joy in life, you must suffer through the pain", and "Until you struggle through the dark, you'll never know that you're alive"
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Scheavo on December 21, 2013, 08:58:51 PM
it's a pretty far stretch to equate what you consider vulgar and offensive with disgust and denigration of fellow human beings. It is completely different.

I don't think this is true; in fact I don't really see how those two things are different at all.  Except of course from the angle of, for example, a TV network trying to keep its advertisers who are experiencing social activism pressures.

Had something else written when I realized basically I'm distinguishing between types of 'being offended.'  So, they're similar, while being different. Apples and oranges are both fruits, and your response to my post makes me think you're talking about fruits (no pun intended). Unless of course you mean they're the exact same? Cause I just don't see that. I'd be curious to know why, though.

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You know now that I think about it, I'm not even sure what it means to "be offended" by something, because it seems like something one has to actually decide to do.  People say stupid things all the time, and I don't exclude myself from that.  But I don't think I'll ever be able to fathom the mindset of a person who is not only so fragile that they take deep personal offense anytime they hear something--even from a complete stranger--that they find distasteful, but also so self-centered that they need to make the world cater to their sensibilities.  At a very young age, most of us learn that in life you have to ignore things and just let them roll off you, and I'm not sure what happens to that.

I'm not sure if I've said to lead you to think I'm actively offended by what Phil Roberts said. But I can imagine that If I was gay, and I heard someone say that I'm similar to people who have sex with animals, and thinks I don't deserve a pleasant afterlife because I am apparently so immoral as to not deserve it, I wouldn't take kindly to that. I'm sure personally, I'd go as far as 'hey, a, fuck you' and never read about, listen to or talk to the person. But I understand why some people would want to respond to public statements such as this with public disgust. It's within their right, and their choice as a human being to try and achieve that end through the system we have in place.

I think what happens with that, is most of us don't have a very personal identity attacked by society. Or I suppose, in this case, used to be attacked by society. Social and cultural messaging is massively important, and it can have real world consequences (such as gay marriage).


Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Scheavo on December 21, 2013, 09:08:09 PM
I've never believed that experiencing tragedy is essential for appreciating good times.  I believe I could live for eternity having never experienced the bad things I have or anticipating the bad things that are bound to come and I'd be completely satisfied.

I guess I can see where some feel that you need the lows to appreciate the highs...but I have never had that philosophy explained in a way that makes sense to me.

The  best way I can explain it is graphically/mathematically. Did you ever have a math class where they asked you to calculate the minimum and maximum for an equation? Well imagine a flat, horizontal line. That has no max or min, it has nothing. The minute you create either a max or a min, you immediately create the other. They're terms which cannot possibly go without the other, as they're points of reference compared to each other, or compared to the same thing at least.

To relate how a maximum or minimum mathematically can releate to the human conceptions of good and bad I would reference psychology. It's pretty well established that in a lot of ways, humans just learn to adapt to what they're given. Your body, for example, will learn to function on how many calories it is recieving (within reason), and your sensation of hunger is related to this. If all you had were equally awesome or equally bad events in your life, you would adjust to that level of goodness and badness, and that would just be what you think is normal. Studies have backed this up around he world; I remember watching one documentary about it ("Happiness") which interviewed this poor Indian rickshaw puller, who in measurable tests, was just as happy as the average American. There is no "good" or "bad" necessarily, there is just a relative positioning of the two. And, just like the mathematical comparison, one creates the other, and one cannot exist without the other. For you to experience something as good, you must have experiences of something else so you can actually understand and appreciate that experience as good, becuase it is not bad.

I have no idea if that makes much sense, or if it'll make sense to you, but that's my attempt at it anyways.

Sorry for quoting an old post, but isn't that the exact same sentiment of Illumination Theory? "To really feel the joy in life, you must suffer through the pain", and "Until you struggle through the dark, you'll never know that you're alive"

Maybe, depends on how you read the lyrics I guess. The first part seems similiar, but honestly, I haven't listened to the newest DT stuff much.

It's fitting to bring this up today, the winter solstice.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: j on December 21, 2013, 10:36:01 PM
Had something else written when I realized basically I'm distinguishing between types of 'being offended.'  So, they're similar, while being different. Apples and oranges are both fruits, and your response to my post makes me think you're talking about fruits (no pun intended). Unless of course you mean they're the exact same? Cause I just don't see that. I'd be curious to know why, though.

No I'm with you, but I think that illustrates my lack of understanding of the whole notion.  Of course they aren't literally, exactly the same, but ultimately what's the difference?  We're still just talking about words conveying ideas that an individual finds disagreeable or off-putting.

 :lol @ the "fruits" pun.

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I'm not sure if I've said to lead you to think I'm actively offended by what Phil Roberts said. But I can imagine that If I was gay, and I heard someone say that I'm similar to people who have sex with animals, and thinks I don't deserve a pleasant afterlife because I am apparently so immoral as to not deserve it, I wouldn't take kindly to that. I'm sure personally, I'd go as far as 'hey, a, fuck you' and never read about, listen to or talk to the person. But I understand why some people would want to respond to public statements such as this with public disgust. It's within their right, and their choice as a human being to try and achieve that end through the system we have in place.

Nah I definitely didn't think you were personally offended by any of this, you just seemed to be pointing out the phenomenon we're now discussing.

And I absolutely agree that people have the right to engage in social activism and express their opinions publicly should they wish to do so.  It isn't that they shouldn't be allowed to do what they're doing, I guess to me it's just revealing that the priorities of those people are what they are.

Look at this case: you have a redneck on a TV show marketed toward and viewed primarily by rednecks who says something in an interview that is redneck-y and frankly as predictable as anything I can imagine.  After (I presume) a little prodding from an interviewer, he somewhat crudely states what everybody already knew was his opinion on the matter, and it's a cause for outrage?  I can't help but marvel at what motivates someone to be so concerned about the view of a man so far removed from their world that they would need to spend their time and effort working to undermine him.  My admittedly tenuous and speculative conclusion is that it's just a function of a human tendency to gravitate toward "us vs them" situations.  And poetically, that is probably *also* what is at the root of the Duck Dynasty guy's view on homosexuality to begin with.

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I think what happens with that, is most of us don't have a very personal identity attacked by society. Or I suppose, in this case, used to be attacked by society. Social and cultural messaging is massively important, and it can have real world consequences (such as gay marriage).

I don't know, I think we all have things about us that other people disagree with, don't like, or sometimes even hate us for.  But the things you "take personally" are really your own choice.  I do think that situations like this are less of an individual thing and more of a group interest, which is where the furthering of a social goal like trying to change attitudes about homosexuality comes into play.  I just think it's misplaced.

-J
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: The King in Crimson on December 22, 2013, 08:45:00 AM
It isn't that they shouldn't be allowed to do what they're doing, I guess to me it's just revealing that the priorities of those people are what they are.
Not limiting this to just Phil Robertson here, but is this really worse than people going out of their way to express how disgusted they are by what homosexuals do in the privacy of their own homes?

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Look at this case: you have a redneck on a TV show marketed toward and viewed primarily by rednecks who says something in an interview that is redneck-y and frankly as predictable as anything I can imagine.  After (I presume) a little prodding from an interviewer, he somewhat crudely states what everybody already knew was his opinion on the matter, and it's a cause for outrage?
I'm guessing A&E knew but was just hoping they could squeeze a bunch of money out of the show before one of them opened their mouths and got the media firestorm a burnin'. As for the viewers, well, everybody I assume knows someone with whom you're cordial and friendly with, maybe someone you know professionally or personally. The type of person you could go and have a beer with and who's fun to chat with... until they bring up politics or religion and then the giant, fundamental gulf between you is revealed. I know a couple of people at my work like that. Whenever I'm chatting all friendly like with them, in the back of my mind I'm chanting over and over 'please don't bring up politics, please don't bring up politics' because once that door is opened, I'll either need to walk away or say something stupid myself.

It's the same with Phil. Likely everyone knows what he believes or everyone can guess what he believes but until he actually says it, it's easy to compartmentalize it and ignore it, to be willfully ignorant until he or the media shoves it in your face.

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I can't help but marvel at what motivates someone to be so concerned about the view of a man so far removed from their world that they would need to spend their time and effort working to undermine him.  My admittedly tenuous and speculative conclusion is that it's just a function of a human tendency to gravitate toward "us vs them" situations.  And poetically, that is probably *also* what is at the root of the Duck Dynasty guy's view on homosexuality to begin with.
Well, to be fair, it's people like Phil who are denying a not insubstantial portion of the population basic rights and, if they had their way, they'd probably be okay with taking even more rights away from that portion of the population. For people who are pro-Gay Rights, Phil Robertson isn't just 'some guy' he's the owner of a massively successful company, the star of a massively successful television show and he's a willing target and a barrier to what they believe in. He's not just a random redneck with ignorant, bigoted views, he's a guy with a massive following.

Will pressing him and A&E on this issue help to change things in a massive or fundamental way? Probably not, but doing nothing definitely won't change things.

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I don't know, I think we all have things about us that other people disagree with, don't like, or sometimes even hate us for.  But the things you "take personally" are really your own choice.  I do think that situations like this are less of an individual thing and more of a group interest, which is where the furthering of a social goal like trying to change attitudes about homosexuality comes into play.  I just think it's misplaced.
I don't know why you think that people just flip a switch in their brains and go 'yep, gonna take this one REAL personally.' I'm sure some people are like that (actually I'm positive there are) but to suggest that the majority of humans are that rational when all evidence points to the contrary is, well, irrational.

As for his comments, I think it's kind of interesting that the media seems to be gelling around his gay-hatin' and his comments on black people and the Jim Crow-era are mostly getting a 'oh yeah, he also said this..." kind of treatment. Is it because gay rights is more topical nowadays or is it because it's much harder for people to rationalize (and maybe even empathize with) his comments about black people?
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Scheavo on December 22, 2013, 09:00:06 AM
Had something else written when I realized basically I'm distinguishing between types of 'being offended.'  So, they're similar, while being different. Apples and oranges are both fruits, and your response to my post makes me think you're talking about fruits (no pun intended). Unless of course you mean they're the exact same? Cause I just don't see that. I'd be curious to know why, though.

No I'm with you, but I think that illustrates my lack of understanding of the whole notion.  Of course they aren't literally, exactly the same, but ultimately what's the difference?  We're still just talking about words conveying ideas that an individual finds disagreeable or off-putting.

The difference is one has a target/subject, one does not. Hearing "fuck" doesn't target anyone personally. Calling gay people sinners, etc., specifically targets people and something key to their identity. I'd say one is more or less justified, the other is more or less childish behavior.

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I'm not sure if I've said to lead you to think I'm actively offended by what Phil Roberts said. But I can imagine that If I was gay, and I heard someone say that I'm similar to people who have sex with animals, and thinks I don't deserve a pleasant afterlife because I am apparently so immoral as to not deserve it, I wouldn't take kindly to that. I'm sure personally, I'd go as far as 'hey, a, fuck you' and never read about, listen to or talk to the person. But I understand why some people would want to respond to public statements such as this with public disgust. It's within their right, and their choice as a human being to try and achieve that end through the system we have in place.

Nah I definitely didn't think you were personally offended by any of this, you just seemed to be pointing out the phenomenon we're now discussing.

Well I'm more annoyed by talking heads, etc., who distort this issue into an issue regarding 'our freedoms' and that this is a liberal plot to undermine the American Constitution, and whatever bogus, charlatan, demagoguery bullshit I hear everytime something like this happens.
 
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I don't know, I think we all have things about us that other people disagree with, don't like, or sometimes even hate us for.  But the things you "take personally" are really your own choice.  I do think that situations like this are less of an individual thing and more of a group interest, which is where the furthering of a social goal like trying to change attitudes about homosexuality comes into play.  I just think it's misplaced.

-J

I don't think it's always your choice to take something personally. Or that it's misplaced to want the social messaging around homosexuality to not be hateful and to just be accepted.

And this doesn't apply to you (as far as I know), but if you look at the same people who come out in the media against people who speak out against Phil Roberts (there's gotta be a cleaner way to say that) are the same people who get offended by people saying happy holidays instead of merry christmas. Which I think just demonstrates that anyone is going to have a similar reaction if something deeply personal to them is attacked, or even percieved to be under threat, by people within the media and society.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: KevShmev on December 22, 2013, 09:38:07 AM
There are major hypocrites everywhere when it comes to freedom of speech.  Getting bent out of shape over people saying, "Happy Holidays," is really stupid, for sure.  But it seems like most people have that "freedom of speech is just great, so long as you say something I agree with" attitude. 
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: The King in Crimson on December 22, 2013, 09:50:58 AM
People are free to say what they want and others are free to respond in kind, even if in kind means 'shut up.' No one is a hypocrite as long as they acknowledge this fact and there's no assault on freedom of speech until the government comes in and says, 'both of you need to shut up.'

So yeah, there's no assault on freedom of speech going on here, but unfortunately 'some people' are trying to make it into just that.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: KevShmev on December 22, 2013, 10:07:08 AM
Oh, I agree; I was speaking more generally.  :)
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: j on December 22, 2013, 02:07:13 PM
It isn't that they shouldn't be allowed to do what they're doing, I guess to me it's just revealing that the priorities of those people are what they are.
Not limiting this to just Phil Robertson here, but is this really worse than people going out of their way to express how disgusted they are by what homosexuals do in the privacy of their own homes?

No, it definitely isn't.

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Well, to be fair, it's people like Phil who are denying a not insubstantial portion of the population basic rights and, if they had their way, they'd probably be okay with taking even more rights away from that portion of the population. For people who are pro-Gay Rights, Phil Robertson isn't just 'some guy' he's the owner of a massively successful company, the star of a massively successful television show and he's a willing target and a barrier to what they believe in. He's not just a random redneck with ignorant, bigoted views, he's a guy with a massive following.

Will pressing him and A&E on this issue help to change things in a massive or fundamental way? Probably not, but doing nothing definitely won't change things.

Yeah that's essentially how I see it, except for one thing.  He's a target because he's a high profile media personality, but anyone who thinks he's influencing public opinion or swaying people by telling his redneck conservative Christian following that he thinks homosexuality is "illogical" or "sinful" or whatever is delusional.

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I don't know why you think that people just flip a switch in their brains and go 'yep, gonna take this one REAL personally.' I'm sure some people are like that (actually I'm positive there are) but to suggest that the majority of humans are that rational when all evidence points to the contrary is, well, irrational.

Obviously that's not really what I meant.  Again, as I think about it, I'm not actually clear on what "taking something personally" means or entails (though obviously we're all familiar with the sentiment), but from experience I do think people can choose to NOT let things get to them, and they can certainly choose the actions they take in response.  I mean at what point do words said by a person bother you enough that you need to stop them from being said for your own satisfaction?  IMO, that reeks of a shortcoming of the individual's character or personality, like an inability to cope with even more benign occurrences of everyday life in the real world.  And maybe that applies to more of us than is comfortable to admit, but I'm just rambling my own knee-jerk thoughts on the matter, not implying that anybody shouldn't be allowed to say what they're saying.

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As for his comments, I think it's kind of interesting that the media seems to be gelling around his gay-hatin' and his comments on black people and the Jim Crow-era are mostly getting a 'oh yeah, he also said this..." kind of treatment. Is it because gay rights is more topical nowadays or is it because it's much harder for people to rationalize (and maybe even empathize with) his comments about black people?

My guess would be the former; people can rationalize anything.  Also it could be because the NAACP etc for whatever reason isn't going after him, while GLAAD is.  Frankly most disturbing to me were the sweeping statements he made linking "godliness" to prosperity and happiness on an individual and societal scale.

-J
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: j on December 22, 2013, 02:32:35 PM
No I'm with you, but I think that illustrates my lack of understanding of the whole notion.  Of course they aren't literally, exactly the same, but ultimately what's the difference?  We're still just talking about words conveying ideas that an individual finds disagreeable or off-putting.

The difference is one has a target/subject, one does not. Hearing "fuck" doesn't target anyone personally. Calling gay people sinners, etc., specifically targets people and something key to their identity. I'd say one is more or less justified, the other is more or less childish behavior.

I don't know.  Saying "fuck YOU Scheavo" or "go to hell, j" targets someone personally.  Saying "I don't like that shirt" or "your face is ugly" or "you're fat" or "you're annoying" or "your opinion is stupid" all target people personally and address something specific about them.  I think we'd tell people to get over it if somebody said any of those things to them.  I guess I don't see where the line is drawn between saying "[insert group] will burn for eternity according to my belief system" and why it isn't written off as just another ignorant opinion.

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Well I'm more annoyed by talking heads, etc., who distort this issue into an issue regarding 'our freedoms' and that this is a liberal plot to undermine the American Constitution, and whatever bogus, charlatan, demagoguery bullshit I hear everytime something like this happens.

Completely agree.

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Or that it's misplaced to want the social messaging around homosexuality to not be hateful and to just be accepted.

I didn't mean to say that it's misplaced to want acceptance from society, just that I think the mechanisms by which such goals are often pursued are misplaced.

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And this doesn't apply to you (as far as I know), but if you look at the same people who come out in the media against people who speak out against Phil Roberts (there's gotta be a cleaner way to say that) are the same people who get offended by people saying happy holidays instead of merry christmas. Which I think just demonstrates that anyone is going to have a similar reaction if something deeply personal to them is attacked, or even percieved to be under threat, by people within the media and society.

Agreed, people of all types do the same thing, we just happen to be talking about the backlash to Phil Robertson.  I'm questioning the rationale, usefulness, and motivation for reacting in such a way, assuming the situation doesn't represent an imminent threat to the person's rights or worldview.  And maybe you're right: that a *perceived* threat is all it takes, which of course can be colored by a lot of different factors.  Something like the "war on Christmas" is just as absurd and unnecessary an outrage, IMO, maybe moreso in that the group involved hasn't been ostracized ever in the history of this country.

-J
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Scheavo on December 22, 2013, 03:14:46 PM
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Or that it's misplaced to want the social messaging around homosexuality to not be hateful and to just be accepted.

I didn't mean to say that it's misplaced to want acceptance from society, just that I think the mechanisms by which such goals are often pursued are misplaced.

Which mechanisms are those? Responding to hateful speech in the media? Or putting market pressure on such public figures?

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And this doesn't apply to you (as far as I know), but if you look at the same people who come out in the media against people who speak out against Phil Roberts (there's gotta be a cleaner way to say that) are the same people who get offended by people saying happy holidays instead of merry christmas. Which I think just demonstrates that anyone is going to have a similar reaction if something deeply personal to them is attacked, or even percieved to be under threat, by people within the media and society.

Agreed, people of all types do the same thing, we just happen to be talking about the backlash to Phil Robertson.  I'm questioning the rationale, usefulness, and motivation for reacting in such a way, assuming the situation doesn't represent an imminent threat to the person's rights or worldview.  And maybe you're right: that a *perceived* threat is all it takes, which of course can be colored by a lot of different factors.  Something like the "war on Christmas" is just as absurd and unnecessary an outrage, IMO, maybe moreso in that the group involved hasn't been ostracized ever in the history of this country.

-J

I suppose I can wonder the same thing, but I always end up not being able to come to a satisfactory conclusion. I'm frankly not sure what the 'best' route is for gaining social acceptance and ending prejudice. I have what I do, but I think the reason a free society works is because people are free to try what they want, and if it works, that speaks for itself.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: j on December 22, 2013, 08:29:08 PM
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Or that it's misplaced to want the social messaging around homosexuality to not be hateful and to just be accepted.

I didn't mean to say that it's misplaced to want acceptance from society, just that I think the mechanisms by which such goals are often pursued are misplaced.

Which mechanisms are those? Responding to hateful speech in the media? Or putting market pressure on such public figures?

Particularly the latter, I suppose.  I'm not aware of any evidence that suggests such a course of action does anything other than make a public figure issue a canned, insincere apology.  No minds are changed, no progress is made; someone just publicly says the words you want to hear and maybe loses his TV show.  I suppose it "gets the issue talked about," for what it's worth, but I feel like at this juncture we're light years beyond the point of merely spreading awareness.  I'm sure the counter argument is something along the lines of "progress is slow but every baby step makes a difference," but again, I'm not convinced that shenanigans like this don't do more harm than good for the cause.  I know that from my own perspective--and this may be wrong of me--my empathy for people is a little tested by stuff like this, because it comes across as contrived and whiny.

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I suppose I can wonder the same thing, but I always end up not being able to come to a satisfactory conclusion. I'm frankly not sure what the 'best' route is for gaining social acceptance and ending prejudice. I have what I do, but I think the reason a free society works is because people are free to try what they want, and if it works, that speaks for itself.

I don't know either, it's a deep-seated thing.  But looking at legal equality (which I agree that until gays can marry and receive the state benefits, they don't really have) versus "abolishing prejudice," I can't help but think man, at some point, it's okay if everyone doesn't like you.  There will always be racists, there will always be homophobes, there will always be xenophobes of every kind, and they can be assholes to you if they want, for the dumbest reasons, within the confines of the law.  A) why is this so important to some people, and B) what is there to show that these avenues of contrived political action work to change attitudes?

-J
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Scheavo on December 23, 2013, 09:23:01 PM
I guess I have a similar reaction to you, but not towards the people responding to the comments - but towards the interviewer and CQ for posing the question and making it public knowledge. I don't think it does any good to bring it into the light, but once in the light, I don't have a problem with the kind of response we see. I think it is an important response to have, especially for young gay people who might be struggling. They probably wouldn't be watching Duck Dynasty, hell they may not even care that some guy says vile things about them, but it would still be a nice thing to have society rally around you being accepted.

Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Ben_Jamin on January 07, 2014, 09:36:15 AM
Amy Chua, also known as the Tiger Mom, wrote another book this time with her husband. Apparently its causing an uproar over it being racist.

https://shine.yahoo.com/parenting/tiger-mom-39-book-stirs-culture-wars-195300564.html?.tsrc=tmobustoday#

I don't see anything wrong with it. But, the funny thing is....It hasn't been released yet. What!? They're basically judging a book based on the cover.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on January 13, 2014, 09:05:46 PM
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/87/Kelly-Thomas-Police-Beating.jpg)

https://www.10news.com/news/u-s-world/2-ex-fullerton-police-officers-acquitted-in-death-of-kelly-thomas-011314

Huh. I guess we were wrong all along. It wasn't the 30 minute beating from 6 cops or the 5 tazers that killed Kelly Thomas. It was an enlarged heart. Go figure. And people wonder why I distrust cops and courtrooms.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Scheavo on January 13, 2014, 09:49:00 PM
That has got to be about the most ridiculous verdict I've ever seen. Up there with Rodney King.

Makes me question the jury selection process.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on January 13, 2014, 10:24:38 PM
I have to wonder about the venue. Fullerton cops are known for being thugs, so it's certainly conceivable that nobody wanted to be responsible for stringing two of them up.

As for the jury selection process, both sides want simple people. You're going to find a whole lot of Juror Number Sixes and very few Juror Number Fours. That puts the emphasis on the people arguing the case, rather than the case itself. Generally not the best forum for sorting out the truth.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Super Dude on January 15, 2014, 05:03:02 AM
All this net neutrality stuff is scaring the crap outta me. I really hope the SCOTUS takes up the case.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on January 15, 2014, 08:39:33 AM
All this net neutrality stuff is scaring the crap outta me. I really hope the SCOTUS takes up the case.
This SCOTUS? It's not going to decide the way you want it to. Practical ramifications don't make any difference to this court.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on January 17, 2014, 03:42:17 PM
U.S. Supreme Court to weigh cell phone searches by police (https://www.reuters.com/article/2014/01/17/us-usa-court-cellphone-idUSBREA0G1H320140117?feedType=RSS&feedName=topNews)

This one really fascinates me. Everybody knows my hardassed stance on the 4th amendment and my distrust of cops, but this is actually a tricky matter from a legal standpoint. It's of course well established that Johnny can rifle through your stuff in a search incident to arrest, and I don't see the smart phone as being all that different than a wallet (address book, calender, etc. all of which they can already search). I also understand why you can't let everybody conduct their business in unsearchable devices. That said, I have a problem with using evidence obtained in a search that was unrelated to the arrest against the suspect. If you bust somebody on a bogus disorderly conduct catchall charge, and then find a picture on his phone of him waving an 8-ball around and bust him for it, that's a little iffy to me.

The simple solution, and one that will never happen, is just to require a warrant. Seems pretty obvious. It allows Johnny to search for information relevant to his charge, but doesn't allow a fishing expedition to search for every possible thing to investigate somebody on.

On the bright side, it'll only take days for somebody to invent a panic shred button. Press the pig icon and everything gets wiped. Probably lead to more safety for bad guys, who are smart enough to keep a backup at home anyway.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Super Dude on January 22, 2014, 10:27:04 AM
Senate and House leaders: Edward Snowden is a Russian spy.

He's white so I guess they can't call him a terrorist.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on January 22, 2014, 11:35:44 AM
Idiot congressmen looking for any way to invoke the bogus terror war. Snowden is starting to be perceived more and more as a whistleblower, and that doesn't sit well with people whose careers dictate an unwavering gusto for national security, whether warranted or not.

Honestly, the Russian spy bit is embarrassingly silly, even for embarrassingly silly people like our congress. Of course exactly what the Russians want in a spy is somebody who will blow their cover and report directly to the global press everything they uncover. While the Russians undoubtedly have plenty of spies (who've probably already reported back everything that Snowden knew anyway), they're all still quietly working in their cubicles, learning more and more. If anything the Rooskies are probably pretty annoyed by Snowden since everything that he leaks becomes null and void the moment we find out that it's leaked. All of the intel they already had is now wasted since Snowden outed the various programs. Their spies are busy now trying to get new information to replace the intel that Snowden ruined.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: cramx3 on January 22, 2014, 01:49:09 PM
Why can't the NSA catch real spies?
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on January 22, 2014, 01:58:36 PM
Because they're not looking for them. All governments accept that everybody spies on everybody else. Nothing new there. If we bust a Russian spy, they'll round up a few of ours. We'll trade them for each other and then have to start over from scratch. Best to let sleeper dogs lie. Since that pesky Constitution is no longer in the way, why not put those talents to better use by spying on the citizens. If you're a part of the controlling elite, we're far more dangerous than the Russians. Bust dopers and radicals, throw in the occasional perv to keep FOX happy, and every once in a while invent a terrorist plot to foil to make the whole thing seem worthwhile.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: cramx3 on January 22, 2014, 03:28:13 PM
Because they're not looking for them. All governments accept that everybody spies on everybody else. Nothing new there. If we bust a Russian spy, they'll round up a few of ours. We'll trade them for each other and then have to start over from scratch. Best to let sleeper dogs lie. Since that pesky Constitution is no longer in the way, why not put those talents to better use by spying on the citizens. If you're a part of the controlling elite, we're far more dangerous than the Russians. Bust dopers and radicals, throw in the occasional perv to keep FOX happy, and every once in a while invent a terrorist plot to foil to make the whole thing seem worthwhile.

My comment was half serious/half joke, but I don't know how serious this response is since it seems pretty far out there in terms of conspiracy theory.  Also, the bolded... you are part of the controlling elite?  :hefdaddy  ;D
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on January 22, 2014, 03:49:22 PM
I was quite serious. If you want to view it as "far out there" that's fine. I'll just point out that they don't seem to be collecting detailed data on every Russian citizen.

And I was referring to people outside of the controlling elite, who range from unpredictable elements to outright disruptive actors.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: cramx3 on January 22, 2014, 03:56:37 PM
Wasn't trying to offend or anything, I just thought what you said seemed like a theory more than reality.  I don't claim to know the truth, but I have to think if the NSA/CIA/FBI whatever knew of Russian spies, they wouldn't just let them be because of fear of ousting our own spies.  I would also have to think the same from Russia's perspective. I could be completely wrong, but it just seems illogical to let spies be.

Also, not picking fights with you in multiple threads, just debating for fun.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on January 22, 2014, 04:06:59 PM
No worries on either part. I enjoy people questioning my POV and certainly don't take offense about it.

As for the spying, it's obviously speculation on my part. The truth is likely somewhere in between. I'm sure there's some tacit indifference, and I'm sure they also don't let people get away with stuff that'd seriously jeopardize their interests. Insofar as Snowden and his intel go, I don't think it was anything the Russians A: didn't know about, and B: wanted jeopardized since they were likely getting a fair amount of the intel we were scaring up. Part of my sleeper dogs lie reference relied on the understanding that one side will usually throw the other side a bone when there's something useful to share. You think we really want to disrupt Russian intelligence operations like Snowden did to ours?
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: cramx3 on January 22, 2014, 04:46:16 PM
No worries on either part. I enjoy people questioning my POV and certainly don't take offense about it.

As for the spying, it's obviously speculation on my part. The truth is likely somewhere in between. I'm sure there's some tacit indifference, and I'm sure they also don't let people get away with stuff that'd seriously jeopardize their interests. Insofar as Snowden and his intel go, I don't think it was anything the Russians A: didn't know about, and B: wanted jeopardized since they were likely getting a fair amount of the intel we were scaring up. Part of my sleeper dogs lie reference relied on the understanding that one side will usually throw the other side a bone when there's something useful to share. You think we really want to disrupt Russian intelligence operations like Snowden did to ours?

Thanks for the admission.  Makes it easier to discuss and not get offended or mad. 

Why wouldn't we want an equivalent Snowden with regards to Russia? 
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on January 22, 2014, 05:15:39 PM
If somebody is fixing to blow up 27 used x-ray machines in the heart of downtown Des Moines and the Russians find out about it, they'll let us know. Likewise, we're undoubtedly sharing similar intel with them. While Snowden's leaks focused on matters of domestic surveillance, it almost certainly did hamper our foreign intelligence gathering capabilities, as well. They gained nothing, and potentially lost future intel. That goes both ways, so a Snowdensky wouldn't be very popular with our own intelligence agencies.

And to be clear, while I recognize that Snowden might have harmed our interests in national security, I put the blame solely on the agencies that gamed the system to the point that exposure became necessary. When you get busted lying and breaking the rules, you don't really get to complain when people start scrutinizing other aspects of your work. Furthermore, I suspect that any true harm came from the agencies having to get their shit in order because of the spotlight, and not because of the leaks themselves. Again, their fault, not Snowden's.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: cramx3 on January 22, 2014, 05:25:40 PM
If somebody is fixing to blow up 27 used x-ray machines in the heart of downtown Des Moines and the Russians find out about it, they'll let us know. Likewise, we're undoubtedly sharing similar intel with them. While Snowden's leaks focused on matters of domestic surveillance, it almost certainly did hamper our foreign intelligence gathering capabilities, as well. They gained nothing, and potentially lost future intel. That goes both ways, so a Snowdensky wouldn't be very popular with our own intelligence agencies.

And to be clear, while I recognize that Snowden might have harmed our interests in national security, I put the blame solely on the agencies that gamed the system to the point that exposure became necessary. When you get busted lying and breaking the rules, you don't really get to complain when people start scrutinizing other aspects of your work. Furthermore, I suspect that any true harm came from the agencies having to get their shit in order because of the spotlight, and not because of the leaks themselves. Again, their fault, not Snowden's.

Of course an "ally" would give us intel of a terrorist attack.  Even if that was from a spy, I am sure they would cover the "spy" part of it up, 
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Perpetual Change on February 05, 2014, 12:28:28 PM
Man, this subforum has become a total ghost town.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on February 05, 2014, 12:32:15 PM
Yeah it has. I'm getting more P/R talk at MP's forum where it's not even allowed.  :lol

Still, it ebbs and flows here. I've seen it be a ghost town plenty of times before. Somebody will come along and say something asinine and you'll have 30 people posting at once all of a sudden.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Perpetual Change on February 05, 2014, 12:34:34 PM
I guess, but the extra step to get P/R access might be why that doesn't happen as much.

Not more infuriated lurkers registering just to immediately post something kooky on PR. I kinda miss it  :sadpanda: Then again, I never had to  mod it  :lol
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on February 05, 2014, 01:16:28 PM
I guess, but the extra step to get P/R access might be why that doesn't happen as much.
Quite possible. I can tell you that under the current scheme I never would have started posting here. New voices with new opinions certainly help to keep things moving along.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Prog Snob on February 05, 2014, 01:43:25 PM
Did anyone happen to catch the Bill Nye debate yesterday?
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Ħ on February 05, 2014, 03:15:35 PM
I was embarrassed for both sides. Facepalming left and right.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Prog Snob on February 05, 2014, 03:41:59 PM
I didn't see it so I was wondering if it was worth watching. 
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: El Barto on February 14, 2014, 06:39:23 PM
(https://a57.foxnews.com/global.fncstatic.com/static/managed/img/U.S./660/371/AR15pic.jpg?ve=1&tl=1)

Thank goodness they outlawed scary looking guns.  :rollin  This is the same weapon Balok used to shoot up Sandy Hook with the offending cosmetic features removed. Politicians shouldn't pass laws without knowing WTF they're doing.

https://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/02/14/cosmetic-tweaks-to-ar-15-thwart-new-york-ban-on-assault-rifles/

Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Prog Snob on February 15, 2014, 06:30:42 AM
Yes, crime will most certainly drop from banning guns like that.   ::)
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Scheavo on February 26, 2014, 03:15:06 PM
God I hate our tax system. For all the mental blowjobs our government gives to small business and entrepreneurs, it's hilarious to me that we tax self-employed people at double the rate. So basically, if you work your ass off as a self-employed person, you get screwed at the end of the year. Or, if you're an "independent contractor," cause you have some people who are too damn lazy and cheap to put you on payroll, you gotta pay twice the taxes.

And I wouldn't care so much if I wasn't so dirt poor. If I earned my money from a W-2, I'd be getting credits and refunds up the wazoo (even if I withheld federal income tax during the year). Change the fact that it's from "self-employment," and suddenly I owe a substantial chunk of money. Hell, I pay a higher percentage than Mitt Romney!
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Lucien on February 26, 2014, 03:49:04 PM
Tax or cuts, tax or cuts... When will the government decide what's better?
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Super Dude on February 26, 2014, 05:15:20 PM
It doesn't have to be anything as binary as that (like it or not, we kinda need taxes)...just make it fairer.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Scheavo on March 02, 2014, 08:11:43 PM
There is a lot of stigma surrounding mental illness and that compounds the "suffering", but make no mistake that it's bad to have untreated bipolar disorder, no matter how much stigma there is about it.

Embracing what they experience doesn't necessarily try to not make the suffering stop. It just tries to solve the suffering in a way that acknowledges who a person is, as an individual, instead of trying to force them into what we consider normal for society.

I never said "don't treat," I said treat in a way that isn't diminutive to whom a person may be. I have a bipolar disorder, so I have first-hand experience and knowledge to throw in here. In a lot of ways, I identify with who I am as part of what makes up the disorder. I think it's insulting and to say it's wrong, to say I shouldn't accept those parts of me, and that those parts of me should be "treated" so as to be "normal."

I don't know what to tell you -- bipolar is called an "illness" (or "disorder" if you prefer) because it's damaging.  If it weren't damaging, we wouldn't call it that.  It's not me who makes that distinction in any case -- doctors decide which traits are harmful and which are OK.  In any case my experience might not exactly be first-hand, but my dad was diagnosed with a bipolar disorder (in addition to a number of other afflictions that are defined by their harmfulness, like alcoholism), and none of them made my childhood any easier -- and not because of social stigma.

I don't know what "treatment without being diminutive to whom a person may be" would look like; maybe you can go into more detail about what that means to you.

The most important part is not to brush it off as simply an illness or something biologically wrong with you. That is seriously insulting, and diminutive of everything I have experienced in life. Maybe there's a reason I have the problems I do, and it's not a stupid reason, it's not a bad reason, and it's not a reason I should just get rid of because of some possible bad side effects. It doesn't mean I can't address the "bad" parts, and it doesn't mean there aren't some medicinal and biological aspects which need to be addressed. But personally, I can tell you, that the attitude in the general public about my issues, were a major contributor to how my problems worsened, and alienated me from any sort of help I might need or have needed.

I'd wager there are a lot of bipolar people out there who have yet to really experience what can be bad about it. The trouble with psychiatry is that it only sees "sick" people. It would be like asking only registered 65 year old Republican Fox News viewers whom they want to be President, and assuming that describes the whole country. Which is really the whole problem with calling it an illness, or a disorder.


Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Jaffa on March 02, 2014, 08:45:16 PM
Out of curiosity, what would you call it if not a disorder? 
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Scheavo on March 02, 2014, 09:26:34 PM
I unfortunately cannot come up with a word for it. And in some ways, I'm not terribly troubled by the word itself. More the practice and attitude around the issue, and how we define the term, specifically. I should probably qualify my last sentence, and say that it's for how we define those words.  If we defined disorder more personally, i.e. looked for what order might exist in a person, as a person, and then looked for how that is out of order and causing problems, it would become pretty palatable to me.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Implode on March 02, 2014, 10:49:50 PM
Well we don't say that someone with bipolar tendencies have a disorder. These disorders aren't a have/don't have situation like normal illnesses. Everyone is on a spectrum of the traits that make up bipolar disorder, schizophrenia, anxiety, etc. We only literally only label it as a disorder if it causes suffering or debilitates someone to live reasonably.

Someone can live with mild bipolar tendencies and be fine. When it's so bad that during manic phases they drop their lives to save the world in Africa only to attempt suicide in a depressive phase, it needs treatment. Then it's considered a disorder.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Scheavo on March 03, 2014, 08:12:55 AM
Well we don't say that someone with bipolar tendencies have a disorder. These disorders aren't a have/don't have situation like normal illnesses. Everyone is on a spectrum of the traits that make up bipolar disorder, schizophrenia, anxiety, etc. We only literally only label it as a disorder if it causes suffering or debilitates someone to live reasonably.

Someone can live with mild bipolar tendencies and be fine. When it's so bad that during manic phases they drop their lives to save the world in Africa only to attempt suicide in a depressive phase, it needs treatment. Then it's considered a disorder.

We only know of it as  "disorder" when it causes such. And then, what is our response to it? To medicate and treat it like a physical problem.

Quote
Someone can live with mild bipolar tendencies and be fine. When it's so bad that during manic phases they drop their lives to save the world in Africa only to attempt suicide in a depressive phase, it needs treatment. Then it's considered a disorder.

Counter xample: imagine in a religiously conservative society, say America 50 years ago, a man can live a "normal" life with a wife and kids. On the inside, he has these urges for other men. For years he denies it, and doesn't do anything about it. He's fine, as far as anyone can tell, and as far as he thinks. I don't know, then something happens, many things could happen, and this man decides he wants to start acting out those urges. At which point his wife finds out, and she considers it wrong. Society in general considers it wrong. It's even considered a pathological mental disorder by the medical commnity. His church wants to provide guidance, wants to counsel him through the problems and issues he's going through. I don't know what they all fully did back then, but it sounds like stories I've heard on TV and in the news.

So my question is, does this example not mirror what you're saying makes something a mental disorder, like bipolarism, and how we respond to it? How are you fully taking account for culture?

Your example of a bipolar person is, well, extreme. If you did something similar in a discussion about LGBT issues, you'd probably face a lot of scorn.




Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Jaffa on March 03, 2014, 11:29:47 AM
Counter xample: imagine in a religiously conservative society, say America 50 years ago, a man can live a "normal" life with a wife and kids. On the inside, he has these urges for other men. For years he denies it, and doesn't do anything about it. He's fine, as far as anyone can tell, and as far as he thinks. I don't know, then something happens, many things could happen, and this man decides he wants to start acting out those urges. At which point his wife finds out, and she considers it wrong.

You go on to talk about society as a whole, as well as the medical community, but I'd like to focus on the wife's reaction.  Because while the reaction of society and the medical community may be misguided, I think the wife's reaction is pretty understandable.  She's not just reacting to a man being homosexual; she's reacting to her husband wanting to cheat on her with other guys.  In this case, it's not that the homosexuality (or bisexuality) itself is causing a problem, it's just that this particular man should not be married to this particular woman, because they are not compatible. 

There's a difference between being a homophobe and just not wanting to be married to a homosexual.  If the wife is homophobic, that's a problem.  If she just doesn't want to be married to a homosexual, that's fairly reasonable of her. 

Similarly, if a woman cannot tolerate mood swings, she probably shouldn't be married to a man with bipolar tendencies.  That doesn't condemn the man or his personality, it's just a comment on his potential compatibility with another person. 

Now, I agree with you that bipolar 'disorder' (for lack of a better word) shouldn't have the social stigma that it sometimes does.  But I also think you're misguided in wanting it to not be considered a disorder at all.  If you have bipolar tendencies and you don't think they have any negative effects on your life (outside of the way other people react to you), good for you, but you must realize that some people do have problems because of the way their brains work.  You also must realize that sometimes medication can help to change the way those people's brains work, thus improving their lives. 
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Scheavo on March 03, 2014, 08:03:49 PM
Counter xample: imagine in a religiously conservative society, say America 50 years ago, a man can live a "normal" life with a wife and kids. On the inside, he has these urges for other men. For years he denies it, and doesn't do anything about it. He's fine, as far as anyone can tell, and as far as he thinks. I don't know, then something happens, many things could happen, and this man decides he wants to start acting out those urges. At which point his wife finds out, and she considers it wrong.

You go on to talk about society as a whole, as well as the medical community, but I'd like to focus on the wife's reaction.  Because while the reaction of society and the medical community may be misguided, I think the wife's reaction is pretty understandable.  She's not just reacting to a man being homosexual; she's reacting to her husband wanting to cheat on her with other guys.  In this case, it's not that the homosexuality (or bisexuality) itself is causing a problem, it's just that this particular man should not be married to this particular woman, because they are not compatible. 

There's a difference between being a homophobe and just not wanting to be married to a homosexual.  If the wife is homophobic, that's a problem.  If she just doesn't want to be married to a homosexual, that's fairly reasonable of her. 

Similarly, if a woman cannot tolerate mood swings, she probably shouldn't be married to a man with bipolar tendencies.  That doesn't condemn the man or his personality, it's just a comment on his potential compatibility with another person. 


I was merely being illistrative there, to draw comparisons between mental "illnesses" and homosexuality. And still, my example only contained her not liking it and wanting to change it about the person. It's not simply going, "well, I don't want to be with a gay man," it's ,"that's wrong, and we should make it go away."

Quote
Now, I agree with you that bipolar 'disorder' (for lack of a better word) shouldn't have the social stigma that it sometimes does.  But I also think you're misguided in wanting it to not be considered a disorder at all.  If you have bipolar tendencies and you don't think they have any negative effects on your life (outside of the way other people react to you), good for you, but you must realize that some people do have problems because of the way their brains work.  You also must realize that sometimes medication can help to change the way those people's brains work, thus improving their lives.

As far as wanting to change it's name:

I unfortunately cannot come up with a word for it. And in some ways, I'm not terribly troubled by the word itself. More the practice and attitude around the issue, and how we define the term, specifically. I should probably qualify my last sentence, and say that it's for how we define those words.  If we defined disorder more personally, i.e. looked for what order might exist in a person, as a person, and then looked for how that is out of order and causing problems, it would become pretty palatable to me.

I'm not sure if I was just unclear here, or what. But basically, it's not even about not medicating, and it's not even about not treating it as something with a biological element to it. It's about reducing it completely to biology, and not recognizing the effects of one's experiences and World (Heideggarian definition) with why someone is in an office, seeking help.

I wrote my next sentence, then realized I remembered writing the same thing:

But personally, I can tell you, that the attitude in the general public about my issues, were a major contributor to how my problems worsened, and alienated me from any sort of help I might need or have needed.

If the medical community and society weren't so diminutive of my experiences and who I am as a conscious and living thing, I would probably have gotten any help I might need sooner than I did. I doubt this holds true for for everyone, nor that I'm alone. And quite frankly, I'm glad I went through what I did. Maybe not to such the length as it went on, but the problems in my life went way, way deeper than my brain chemistry. Simply medicating me would have been worthless, and it may have just made the problem worse.

Depression isn't all bad. And I don't like how we treat it completely as such. Some really good things can come out of it. There were changes in my life that became necessary that had nothing to do by altering my brain chemistry. They were practical, concrete, they were routines and goals. A pill can't inspire any of that. At best, it can help you achieve them. Which is exactly why anti-depressants can have suicidal consequences. They give the ability to act, nothing else.

By the way, just because I think I might be misunderstood here as well, I'm not annoyed at anyone. One problem I have with how these debates usually go is people rarely seem to treat people like the inherently ignorant and prejudiced animals we are. I think the reactive and defensive nature that is often seem in the public only makes some people more entrenched. Really, I find this somewhat therepeutic.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Jaffa on March 03, 2014, 08:16:01 PM
So you're basically saying that the medical community should take a more personal approach to dealing with mental 'disorders'? 

I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, I've just honestly had trouble seeing what you're trying to get at, so I want to see if I'm understanding you correctly at this point. 
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Scheavo on March 03, 2014, 09:07:58 PM
And holistic.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Jaffa on March 03, 2014, 09:13:15 PM
No disagreement from me, then.  Carry on. 
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: theseoafs on March 03, 2014, 10:56:24 PM
The most important part is not to brush it off as simply an illness or something biologically wrong with you. That is seriously insulting, and diminutive of everything I have experienced in life. Maybe there's a reason I have the problems I do, and it's not a stupid reason, it's not a bad reason, and it's not a reason I should just get rid of because of some possible bad side effects. It doesn't mean I can't address the "bad" parts, and it doesn't mean there aren't some medicinal and biological aspects which need to be addressed. But personally, I can tell you, that the attitude in the general public about my issues, were a major contributor to how my problems worsened, and alienated me from any sort of help I might need or have needed.

I'd wager there are a lot of bipolar people out there who have yet to really experience what can be bad about it. The trouble with psychiatry is that it only sees "sick" people. It would be like asking only registered 65 year old Republican Fox News viewers whom they want to be President, and assuming that describes the whole country. Which is really the whole problem with calling it an illness, or a disorder.

Sorry, I didn't realize you had dropped your reply in the chat thread until now.  In any case I don't know if I'm entirely following your line of thought here.  I don't think anyone thinks your bipolar tendencies happen for no reason -- obviously, there's a reason for everything.  There are biological factors to mental disorders but there are other factors too.  Everyone sits on a spectrum, like Implode said, and you can have certain tendencies that don't affect your life in any concrete way.  You can have obsessive tendencies, but the doctors don't diagnose you with OCD until you demonstrate that your obsessive tendencies are consistently hurting you or others, or are greatly limiting your ability to function in society in some way.  If you sometimes worry at work that you left the stove on at home, that's not really a problem.  If you're consistently late to work because every day you make multiple trips back to your house to repeatedly ensure you did not leave the stove on, that's an issue that should probably be addressed psychologically.

At the same time, disorders are so called because they harm people.  If you have OCD, your obsessive-compulsive tendencies are so strong and consistent that they're negatively affecting your life.  If you have alcoholism, your dependency on alcohol is hurting you and your family.  In that way, disorders are a bad thing by any reasonable definition of the word "bad", and they should be fixed.  I don't understand why you have an issue with that premise.

The relation to the LGBT issue is, as far as I'm concerned, a complete and utter red herring.  Besides having once been considered a mental disorder, being homosexual has nothing to do with being diagnosed with bipolar disorder, full-stop.  The homosexual man likes to bang guys.  The man with bipolar disorder is having manic and depressive episodes that are negatively affecting his life.  Your attempts to render the two cases equivalent strike me as kind of disingenuous. 

If the medical community and society weren't so diminutive of my experiences and who I am as a conscious and living thing, I would probably have gotten any help I might need sooner than I did. I doubt this holds true for for everyone, nor that I'm alone. And quite frankly, I'm glad I went through what I did. Maybe not to such the length as it went on, but the problems in my life went way, way deeper than my brain chemistry. Simply medicating me would have been worthless, and it may have just made the problem worse.

I haven't been diagnosed with a mental disorder.  I also haven't really spent any time interacting with the medical community as a patient.  So I have to plead ignorance on this one.

Bipolar disorder strikes me as something that should be treated, at least in part, with therapy.  A quick glance at Wikipedia affirms that psychotherapy is a common treatment.  Is that not what happened with you?

I guess, more concretely, the question is:  in what ways should the medical community improve, in your view?  Let's say I go up to my doctor and say "doc, I am having manic and depressive episodes that are negatively affecting my life".  What are the actions he should take?
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Scheavo on March 04, 2014, 08:50:50 AM
The most important part is not to brush it off as simply an illness or something biologically wrong with you. That is seriously insulting, and diminutive of everything I have experienced in life. Maybe there's a reason I have the problems I do, and it's not a stupid reason, it's not a bad reason, and it's not a reason I should just get rid of because of some possible bad side effects. It doesn't mean I can't address the "bad" parts, and it doesn't mean there aren't some medicinal and biological aspects which need to be addressed. But personally, I can tell you, that the attitude in the general public about my issues, were a major contributor to how my problems worsened, and alienated me from any sort of help I might need or have needed.

I'd wager there are a lot of bipolar people out there who have yet to really experience what can be bad about it. The trouble with psychiatry is that it only sees "sick" people. It would be like asking only registered 65 year old Republican Fox News viewers whom they want to be President, and assuming that describes the whole country. Which is really the whole problem with calling it an illness, or a disorder.

Sorry, I didn't realize you had dropped your reply in the chat thread until now.  In any case I don't know if I'm entirely following your line of thought here.  I don't think anyone thinks your bipolar tendencies happen for no reason -- obviously, there's a reason for everything.  There are biological factors to mental disorders but there are other factors too.  Everyone sits on a spectrum, like Implode said, and you can have certain tendencies that don't affect your life in any concrete way.  You can have obsessive tendencies, but the doctors don't diagnose you with OCD until you demonstrate that your obsessive tendencies are consistently hurting you or others, or are greatly limiting your ability to function in society in some way.  If you sometimes worry at work that you left the stove on at home, that's not really a problem.  If you're consistently late to work because every day you make multiple trips back to your house to repeatedly ensure you did not leave the stove on, that's an issue that should probably be addressed psychologically.

At the same time, disorders are so called because they harm people.  If you have OCD, your obsessive-compulsive tendencies are so strong and consistent that they're negatively affecting your life.  If you have alcoholism, your dependency on alcohol is hurting you and your family.  In that way, disorders are a bad thing by any reasonable definition of the word "bad", and they should be fixed.  I don't understand why you have an issue with that premise.

The relation to the LGBT issue is, as far as I'm concerned, a complete and utter red herring.  Besides having once been considered a mental disorder, being homosexual has nothing to do with being diagnosed with bipolar disorder, full-stop.  The homosexual man likes to bang guys.  The man with bipolar disorder is having manic and depressive episodes that are negatively affecting his life.  Your attempts to render the two cases equivalent strike me as kind of disingenuous. 

All I see you doing is giving me a certain ethical viewpoint, and treating it as objective. From other ethical viewpoints, homosexuality still fits everything you've just described. I could even make the case for how homosexuality could be disorderly. Like if you've supressed them for a long time, and ignore them, and then start acting out on those desires in an unhealthy manner, such as visiting prostitutes and the like. This can be very damaging to your health (STD's), maybe your money, it could even get in the way of work. And it has nothing to do with the banging of dudes.

Have not some people used their obsessive compulsive behavior towards good ends? I swear I've heard such stories. ANd remember, I'm not saying just ignore it and don't provide it, but rather to help in a different way.

My issue is that you are not properly accounting for culture and society in your assessment. One of your examples was being late to work, as if that should universally be seen as bad. But that's a cultural viewpoint. Not all cultures may view it so bad to be 10 minutes late to work each day. Mental ilnesses and disorders have constantly changed definitions over time. There is a lot of subjectivity in the matter, and a lot of how we treat and respond to people in society goes hand in hand with the results we see. Just like how some studies out there show men being better at STEM fields than woman. Does that mean men are better at math than woman, or does it just mean we have such a stereoptypes around this, that we get the results we think exist?

And I don't know where I've ever said the two cases are equivalent. If I have, I mispoke. I've only meant to argue for their  being similiar, and how there's a lot of overlap between the two. As for how much overlap, well it comes down to the above as well.

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If the medical community and society weren't so diminutive of my experiences and who I am as a conscious and living thing, I would probably have gotten any help I might need sooner than I did. I doubt this holds true for for everyone, nor that I'm alone. And quite frankly, I'm glad I went through what I did. Maybe not to such the length as it went on, but the problems in my life went way, way deeper than my brain chemistry. Simply medicating me would have been worthless, and it may have just made the problem worse.

I haven't been diagnosed with a mental disorder.  I also haven't really spent any time interacting with the medical community as a patient.  So I have to plead ignorance on this one.

Bipolar disorder strikes me as something that should be treated, at least in part, with therapy.  A quick glance at Wikipedia affirms that psychotherapy is a common treatment.  Is that not what happened with you?

I guess, more concretely, the question is:  in what ways should the medical community improve, in your view?  Let's say I go up to my doctor and say "doc, I am having manic and depressive episodes that are negatively affecting my life".  What are the actions he should take?

Did you read the other posts here? Cause I feel like I've already answered some of this.

Therapy is a part of it, but it's therapy-for-medication, essentially. I'd say the therapy isn't really aimed or utilized in a helpful way. One thing that was never asked of me, is what do I FEEL is the reason for my mood swings. What element of my life are these mood swings hinging on. I felt like there was a commonality, like there was something deep inside that was responsible for what I was going through. And I still feel that was true. There are some therapists out there who are more inline with this, but they are not the mainstream practice, from my experience. Therapists express some obligation, because of the medical community, to bring in, and in some ways push, medicine. It's reasonable for them to do so, they're just trying to listen to other experts.

More importantly - and I think this is something you just don't get - is that the the issue should be dealt with more inter-personally, and less professionally. I was always hurt when friends and family would say, "you should go get help, don't talk to me about it." When family and friends treat it as something alien to them, it's alienating. And that's damaging. And that cause more problems than it solves. The initial response is to treat it like there's something WRONG with you, not as if, just maybe, everything is perfectly right with you, and it's understandable how you are behaving and feeling the way you are.

Recently, I remember my girlfriend read me this quote from some guy who used to be depressed. It was about an African ceremony he attended to "cure his depression." It was an ancient practice. I can't remember all the specifics, but in a nutshell, he talked about what rituals they did, what it meant to him, and why he thinks it worked for him. A lot of it, and I do mean a lot of it, had to do with the community coming together. It wasn't shamed or hidden, it was fully exposed for everyone in town to know and see it. That brought him comfort and relief. This part, I like, and I think is very apt for the discussion I just had above. Where I completely, completely, disagreed with him, was that he said depression felt like something that was not part of him. It as alien to him. I think the ceremony was even slightly exorcistic. I feel like I had the problem I had because of who I am, how I think, how I identify morally, ethically, and everything to do with my identity, and what I have gone through in life. To say it is not a part of me is to ignore what creates me.

Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: theseoafs on March 04, 2014, 10:41:19 AM
All I see you doing is giving me a certain ethical viewpoint, and treating it as objective. From other ethical viewpoints, homosexuality still fits everything you've just described. I could even make the case for how homosexuality could be disorderly. Like if you've supressed them for a long time, and ignore them, and then start acting out on those desires in an unhealthy manner, such as visiting prostitutes and the like. This can be very damaging to your health (STD's), maybe your money, it could even get in the way of work. And it has nothing to do with the banging of dudes.

Yes, exactly -- it has nothing to do with the banging of dudes.  In this hypothetical case, being homosexual had absolutely no bearing on the guy's troubles; it was perfectly possible for him to live his life healthily as a homosexual, but he didn't for other reasons.  In this case he would be diagnosed and treated not for homosexuality, but for something else -- maybe some form of severe social anxiety or a sex addiction or something like that.  Homosexuality is not a disorder.

My issue is that you are not properly accounting for culture and society in your assessment. One of your examples was being late to work, as if that should universally be seen as bad. But that's a cultural viewpoint. Not all cultures may view it so bad to be 10 minutes late to work each day. Mental ilnesses and disorders have constantly changed definitions over time. There is a lot of subjectivity in the matter, and a lot of how we treat and respond to people in society goes hand in hand with the results we see. Just like how some studies out there show men being better at STEM fields than woman. Does that mean men are better at math than woman, or does it just mean we have such a stereoptypes around this, that we get the results we think exist?

This paragraph basically boils down to "there are probably some people out there who disagree with you, therefore what you're saying is incorrect".  The question is, do YOU think homosexuality is a disorder?  I know you don't.  Do YOU think it should be seen as perfectly normal or healthy if someone consistently misses their appointments for completely irrational reasons brought on by their obsessions and compulsions?  Do YOU think that it's cool if your dependency on alcohol keeps you from accomplishing anything or puts your family in discomfort or in danger?  The point is that, social issues aside, there comes a point when mental tendencies are so strong or pronounced that it becomes difficult to satisfy your responsibilities; that's what disorder is.

More importantly - and I think this is something you just don't get - is that the the issue should be dealt with more inter-personally, and less professionally. I was always hurt when friends and family would say, "you should go get help, don't talk to me about it." When family and friends treat it as something alien to them, it's alienating. And that's damaging. And that cause more problems than it solves. The initial response is to treat it like there's something WRONG with you, not as if, just maybe, everything is perfectly right with you, and it's understandable how you are behaving and feeling the way you are.

Well, this, I'm torn about.  That's totally something I would say to a friend who was going through these problems, and I can see how it would be alienating, but that's not the intention.  I would say that because I genuinely believe that I am not the person to talk to when it comes to addressing mental disorders.  I have no training in medicine or psychology and think myself entirely unable to meaningfully provide anything close to the holistic, personalized therapy you would like from the medical community.  I know there are people that know much better than I do about how to address your problems, so I refer you to them.  I would dress it up as, "I love you and care about you but I'm not capable of dealing with that problem.  I'm here to talk to if you need someone but first, you should talk to someone who knows what you're going through and is qualified to treat you."  I guess, from the other end of the conversation, the effect might be different than how you intended it.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Jaffa on March 04, 2014, 11:39:15 AM
That's totally something I would say to a friend who was going through these problems, and I can see how it would be alienating, but that's not the intention.  I would say that because I genuinely believe that I am not the person to talk to when it comes to addressing mental disorders.  I have no training in medicine or psychology and think myself entirely unable to meaningfully provide anything close to the holistic, personalized therapy you would like from the medical community.  I know there are people that know much better than I do about how to address your problems, so I refer you to them.

Well, I think you’re now touching on Scheavo’s point.  If a friend comes to you to talk about their problems, maybe that means they would rather talk to a friend than a professional.  This kind of response implies that they need a professional, that only someone with training in medicine and psychology can deal with their issues.  The implication, intentional or not, is that there’s something wrong with them, so wrong that it needs to be addressed by a professional.  I think that's what Scheavo's getting at, here.  Maybe you couldn't help your friend, but by refusing to even try, you might be contributing to their sense of social isolation by making them feel that there's something fundamentally abnormal about them. 
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: theseoafs on March 04, 2014, 12:09:58 PM
That's totally something I would say to a friend who was going through these problems, and I can see how it would be alienating, but that's not the intention.  I would say that because I genuinely believe that I am not the person to talk to when it comes to addressing mental disorders.  I have no training in medicine or psychology and think myself entirely unable to meaningfully provide anything close to the holistic, personalized therapy you would like from the medical community.  I know there are people that know much better than I do about how to address your problems, so I refer you to them.

Well, I think you’re now touching on Scheavo’s point.  If a friend comes to you to talk about their problems, maybe that means they would rather talk to a friend than a professional.  This kind of response implies that they need a professional, that only someone with training in medicine and psychology can deal with their issues.  The implication, intentional or not, is that there’s something wrong with them, so wrong that it needs to be addressed by a professional.  I think that's what Scheavo's getting at, here.  Maybe you couldn't help your friend, but by refusing to even try, you might be contributing to their sense of social isolation by making them feel that there's something fundamentally abnormal about them.

I do understand the issue at play, but I don't see exactly how to resolve it.  The fact of the matter is that I'm not well-equipped to deal with a friend's bipolar disorder.  That doesn't necessarily mean there's anything fundamentally wrong with them, or that they're hopeless or a lost cause -- it just means my experience is limiting my ability to give my friend good advice.  I would feel extremely uncomfortable attempting to say my piece about how to deal with bipolar disorder, because at the end of the day I don't really know anything about it.  The most helpful thing I can do is find a person who does know something about it.

There's a personal element to this too, which is that people who think they know more than professionals despite having no medical or psychological training are a huge pet peeve of mine.  My girlfriend got a fracture in her back last year, and when you get hurt, everybody suddenly turns into a doctor.   Even if you didn't ask for them, everyone tells you about what books you need to read, what mantras and prayers you need to repeat, what liquefied vegetables you need to drink, and what alternative practitioners specializing in astrological hypnosis you need to see to fix a broken back, and, frankly, it's infuriating.  The last thing I want to do is give my friend shitty advice when I know I have no clue what the fuck I'm talking about.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Jaffa on March 04, 2014, 12:31:57 PM
The thing is, by referring them to a professional, you are giving them advice about how to deal with their problems.  The advice you're giving them is that they shouldn't come to you for help because their issues are too severe for you to be able to deal with.  But how do you know how severe their issues are if you don't have any training?  Keep in mind that while you don't know what they're going through, they do know what they're going through, and they've made the decision to come to you rather than going to a professional.  Maybe a shoulder to cry on and some friendly advice is exactly what they need. 

Without going into too much detail, I can mention a friend I have who has been to multiple professionals over the years and swears that I've helped her more than any of the professionals ever could.  I didn't even give her any advice or anything.  All I did was know her, listen to her, and offer some uneducated observations about her problems.  That turned out to be much more helpful for her than the advice of all the professionals who thought they knew exactly what she needed to do.  When she talked to professionals, she was acutely aware that she was talking to professionals, people who only talked to her because they were paid to.  When she talked to me, she felt like she was talking to someone who legitimately cared about her and wanted to understand her as a person, and that was really all she needed. 

On a more personal note, I can admit that I've been to several therapists myself.  The only one who ever helped me at all was a counselor who basically just treated me like a friend anyway.  The others (mostly psychiatrists intent on finding the right dosage for me) just made me feel like I was being treated like a case in a psych 101 textbook, and actually made me want to rebel against any advice they gave me. 

Bottom line, professional help isn't for everyone.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Scheavo on March 06, 2014, 01:33:21 AM
All I see you doing is giving me a certain ethical viewpoint, and treating it as objective. From other ethical viewpoints, homosexuality still fits everything you've just described. I could even make the case for how homosexuality could be disorderly. Like if you've supressed them for a long time, and ignore them, and then start acting out on those desires in an unhealthy manner, such as visiting prostitutes and the like. This can be very damaging to your health (STD's), maybe your money, it could even get in the way of work. And it has nothing to do with the banging of dudes.

Yes, exactly -- it has nothing to do with the banging of dudes.  In this hypothetical case, being homosexual had absolutely no bearing on the guy's troubles; it was perfectly possible for him to live his life healthily as a homosexual, but he didn't for other reasons.  In this case he would be diagnosed and treated not for homosexuality, but for something else -- maybe some form of severe social anxiety or a sex addiction or something like that.  Homosexuality is not a disorder.

And why don't you think the same could be said for bipolar disorder? Maybe it's not a disorder, but a valid response to one's experience. Or if not valid, understandable. More on this later.

Quote
My issue is that you are not properly accounting for culture and society in your assessment. One of your examples was being late to work, as if that should universally be seen as bad. But that's a cultural viewpoint. Not all cultures may view it so bad to be 10 minutes late to work each day. Mental ilnesses and disorders have constantly changed definitions over time. There is a lot of subjectivity in the matter, and a lot of how we treat and respond to people in society goes hand in hand with the results we see. Just like how some studies out there show men being better at STEM fields than woman. Does that mean men are better at math than woman, or does it just mean we have such a stereoptypes around this, that we get the results we think exist?

This paragraph basically boils down to "there are probably some people out there who disagree with you, therefore what you're saying is incorrect".  The question is, do YOU think homosexuality is a disorder?  I know you don't.  Do YOU think it should be seen as perfectly normal or healthy if someone consistently misses their appointments for completely irrational reasons brought on by their obsessions and compulsions?  Do YOU think that it's cool if your dependency on alcohol keeps you from accomplishing anything or puts your family in discomfort or in danger?  The point is that, social issues aside, there comes a point when mental tendencies are so strong or pronounced that it becomes difficult to satisfy your responsibilities; that's what disorder is.

No, what it boils down to is that there are some people who disagree with you, and what you're saying is not the truth.

So to get more personal, I've always viewed part of my bipolarism as a byproduct of how I think, or at worst vainly think I think. Shit like this, I just think about constantly. Always have, always will. I like to dissect things, examine them closely, and ask as many questions as I can. Without getting into too much of the specifics, I reached a point along this journey where shit started to hit the fan. I did what I do, and went at it from all angles, and like most things in life, you can view things in at least two lights. I wrote journals, and I could notice how my thoughts would flow between the mania and depression. It was a train of thought, and what would have helped more than anything was a friend to explain it to, talk to it with, and offer their advice and understanding.
 
And a pill can either make that train go faster, or derail off a track. It cannot inspire a philosophy. It took me years to realize how to deal with this mental hang-up of mine. It's disorderly enough that I don't care if you call it that.

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More importantly - and I think this is something you just don't get - is that the the issue should be dealt with more inter-personally, and less professionally. I was always hurt when friends and family would say, "you should go get help, don't talk to me about it." When family and friends treat it as something alien to them, it's alienating. And that's damaging. And that cause more problems than it solves. The initial response is to treat it like there's something WRONG with you, not as if, just maybe, everything is perfectly right with you, and it's understandable how you are behaving and feeling the way you are.

Well, this, I'm torn about.  That's totally something I would say to a friend who was going through these problems, and I can see how it would be alienating, but that's not the intention.  I would say that because I genuinely believe that I am not the person to talk to when it comes to addressing mental disorders.  I have no training in medicine or psychology and think myself entirely unable to meaningfully provide anything close to the holistic, personalized therapy you would like from the medical community.  I know there are people that know much better than I do about how to address your problems, so I refer you to them.  I would dress it up as, "I love you and care about you but I'm not capable of dealing with that problem.  I'm here to talk to if you need someone but first, you should talk to someone who knows what you're going through and is qualified to treat you."  I guess, from the other end of the conversation, the effect might be different than how you intended it.

Jaffa hit it pretty good in my opinion. But there is one thing:

The last thing I want to do is give my friend shitty advice when I know I have no clue what the fuck I'm talking about.

You're defending what I'm contending with what I'm contending. Thinking it is a disorder goes hand in hand with thinking you have no fucking clue what you're talking about. Maybe some of us just grapple with issues you don't, and don't grapple with issues that you do. Something you may take for granted and think is so obvious may strike someone else as important. Just feeling understood, by someone you know, is huge. They don't have to know everything, you don't have to know everything. The act of telling someone your close to what you're going through and how it makes you feel, and talking about it, and hearing sympathy and empathy from the person is hugely therapeutic. That's what therapists do, they just take money for it, and unlike psychiatrists, therapists can believe many things and tell you many different things. They're given guidance and training, but they can never replace a friend.

What would you say is better: sex with a prostitute, or with someone you love?
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: jammindude on March 06, 2014, 02:00:40 AM
So many things to say...but it's very late, and I'm sleepy.

The short version: My wife of 15yrs is bipolar. Our relationship was not sustainable. Thanks to two different seizure medications, she is a COMPLETELY different person from the woman I married...practically unrecognizable. And you know what we both have to say to that? GLORY HALLELUJAH!

As a direct result of both medication and intense therapy, we have finally reached a state where her and I can both state that we are happier than we've been in a long time....maybe ever.

Not sure how much detail she would want me to delve into on a public forum...but I do know that her main fear was "losing herself"...there was certainly a drastic transformation, but absolutely no regrets.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Jaffa on March 06, 2014, 03:44:48 AM
In case I implied otherwise, I want to clarify that I think some people absolutely do benefit from professional help and medication.  I never meant to disregard those tools entirely; I only meant to suggest that they aren't effective or necessary in every case. 
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: theseoafs on March 06, 2014, 09:15:28 AM
Thinking it is a disorder goes hand in hand with thinking you have no fucking clue what you're talking about. Maybe some of us just grapple with issues you don't, and don't grapple with issues that you do.

This is exactly the point I'm trying to make.  I don't grapple with bipolar, and I haven't researched bipolar, and I haven't really talked to anyone about their bipolar, so I don't feel comfortable consulting another friend about their bipolar.

This isn't just restricted to mental disorders, by the way.  You and Jaffa have both said something to the effect of "by telling people they should see a doctor, you're just reinforcing that their disorder is too abnormal or severe for you to handle", which is flat-out untrue any way you look at it.  Like I said, I don't really feel comfortable offering advice on something unless I know I know what I'm talking about, and there are just a shitload of things I don't know about.  If you think your kid might be a sociopath, my advice would be to take him to a doctor who specializes in this kind of thing, since I don't know anything about parenting or sociopathy.  If you're having trouble with your quantum homework, I'd tell you I don't know shit about physics and probably send you off to my friend David, who specializes in that kind of thing.  If the president came up to me and asked me how to deal with Putin, I would say "Barry, my knowledge of foreign policy is so limited that any advice I gave would just be harmful".  In any case the point I'm trying to make is that saying "I can't really help you with that, but I know someone who can" doesn't necessarily mean anything about my stance on mental disorders, doesn't come from a place of judgment, and it certainly doesn't mean I'm rejecting you in your time of need -- it means the thing that I believe will be best for you will not come from me, and I'm being up-front about that fact. 

Having said that, I have nowhere denied the importance of having a friend to talk to.  Looking back at something I already wrote (with added emphasis this time):

I would dress it up as, "I love you and care about you but I'm not capable of dealing with that problem.  I'm here to talk to if you need someone but first, you should talk to someone who knows what you're going through and is qualified to treat you."

So, there it is.  Put another way, "you can talk to me if you need to, but I think a professional would be able to provide you the most constructive, battle-tested advice about how to deal with this issue".  That would pretty much capture my feelings if I were in that situation, anyway.  But obviously, if a friend wants to talk about a problem, I can do that and provide empathy, but my constructive input would be limited.

EDIT:

I reached a point along this journey where shit started to hit the fan. I did what I do, and went at it from all angles, and like most things in life, you can view things in at least two lights...And a pill can either make that train go faster, or derail off a track. It cannot inspire a philosophy. It took me years to realize how to deal with this mental hang-up of mine. It's disorderly enough that I don't care if you call it that.

.... I'm confused, so you're OK now with me calling bipolar disorder a disorder? 
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Jaffa on March 06, 2014, 01:35:40 PM
You and Jaffa have both said something to the effect of "by telling people they should see a doctor, you're just reinforcing that their disorder is too abnormal or severe for you to handle", which is flat-out untrue any way you look at it. 

It really isn't flat-out untrue, though.  If you don't like the use of the words 'abnormal' and 'severe,' let me try putting it this way instead: when you tell them that you lack the training and experience to help them deal with their issues, you are saying that dealing with their issues would require training and experience.  The implication is that what they're going through is not something that the average person can relate to or understand without going to school and learning to do so. 

Which is all well and good when you're talking about quantum mechanics and foreign policy, subjects that nobody would know anything about without educating themselves first.  But we're talking about a person's basic psychology and personality.  They were born with it.  If average people can't relate or understand without training, what does that say about this person? 

(By the way, I actually had missed the part where you said that you were still there for them if they needed somebody to talk to.  I apologize for that oversight.  I do stand by the principle of what I'm saying here, but I understand your position better now.)
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Scheavo on March 06, 2014, 07:38:05 PM
Thinking it is a disorder goes hand in hand with thinking you have no fucking clue what you're talking about. Maybe some of us just grapple with issues you don't, and don't grapple with issues that you do.

This is exactly the point I'm trying to make.  I don't grapple with bipolar, and I haven't researched bipolar, and I haven't really talked to anyone about their bipolar, so I don't feel comfortable consulting another friend about their bipolar.

I think you vastly misunderstood my point. It's because of the fact that you may not struggle with something that I struggle with which makes you a perfect person to talk to. Every single person has their own view and experiences, and I think it's sad that you denigrate your own experiences on the matter of being human and a living creature.

Also, I could say you're just potentially creating the problem which you say prevents you from doing anything. You don't speak to people about their bipolarism, so you don't understand, so you don't talk to them. See the circular logic in that?

And just to tie it all together with what I've been saying, 50 years ago, I could have said the same about homosexuality. How many people have not talked with someone who is gay? Or heard their stories? And how many, for that very reason, don't understand or empathize with gay issues? I have heard, on numerous occaisions, gay activists say they're accomplishing what they're accomplishing because they're getting their stories out there, and sharing their experiences. And from that, people realize how much they have in common with someone else. And once you realize that, you start treating that other person more like yourself, more humanely, more compassionately.

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This isn't just restricted to mental disorders, by the way.  You and Jaffa have both said something to the effect of "by telling people they should see a doctor, you're just reinforcing that their disorder is too abnormal or severe for you to handle", which is flat-out untrue any way you look at it.  Like I said, I don't really feel comfortable offering advice on something unless I know I know what I'm talking about, and there are just a shitload of things I don't know about.  If you think your kid might be a sociopath, my advice would be to take him to a doctor who specializes in this kind of thing, since I don't know anything about parenting or sociopathy.  If you're having trouble with your quantum homework, I'd tell you I don't know shit about physics and probably send you off to my friend David, who specializes in that kind of thing.  If the president came up to me and asked me how to deal with Putin, I would say "Barry, my knowledge of foreign policy is so limited that any advice I gave would just be harmful".  In any case the point I'm trying to make is that saying "I can't really help you with that, but I know someone who can" doesn't necessarily mean anything about my stance on mental disorders, doesn't come from a place of judgment, and it certainly doesn't mean I'm rejecting you in your time of need -- it means the thing that I believe will be best for you will not come from me, and I'm being up-front about that fact. 

As Jaffa pointed out, human emotions and experiences are something we're all very familiar with, and in some ways, experts on. . We're talking about the kind of thing every single person does every day, and anyone can have something valuable to say. How do you deal with challenges? How do you settle upon an opinion? How do you look to interpret the world? You do this, constantly, even if you're not aware of it.

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I would dress it up as, "I love you and care about you but I'm not capable of dealing with that problem.  I'm here to talk to if you need someone but first, you should talk to someone who knows what you're going through and is qualified to treat you."

So, there it is.  Put another way, "you can talk to me if you need to, but I think a professional would be able to provide you the most constructive, battle-tested advice about how to deal with this issue".  That would pretty much capture my feelings if I were in that situation, anyway.  But obviously, if a friend wants to talk about a problem, I can do that and provide empathy, but my constructive input would be limited.

You're just avoiding my point about how a major part of the problem is feeling misunderstood and isolated.

By just thinking you can't give constructive input, you're saying that my experiences and emotions are so weird and alien to you, that you can't empathize. Without even knowing what I'm going through, or why, or anything. It may not be your intent, but the effect of doing something like this, at least for me, is isolating and a tad insulting.

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I reached a point along this journey where shit started to hit the fan. I did what I do, and went at it from all angles, and like most things in life, you can view things in at least two lights...And a pill can either make that train go faster, or derail off a track. It cannot inspire a philosophy. It took me years to realize how to deal with this mental hang-up of mine. It's disorderly enough that I don't care if you call it that.

.... I'm confused, so you're OK now with me calling bipolar disorder a disorder?

I said a long time ago that I wasn't actually arguing for that. I can understand how I was confusing, but I thought I was rather explicit in saying I brought up that example because I saw (and see) hypocrisy in your position. To a degree, this required me to play devils advocate for that position, to try and demonstrate the similarities.

*edit*

Oh, and one last thing. By the time I find a therapist I liked, you know he told me about what he does? That he listens and responds, and that therapy is largely just about that. He didn't pretend to know everything, or to have all the answers. I think you are more than capable of listening and responding. 
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: theseoafs on March 06, 2014, 10:40:58 PM
You and Jaffa have both said something to the effect of "by telling people they should see a doctor, you're just reinforcing that their disorder is too abnormal or severe for you to handle", which is flat-out untrue any way you look at it. 

It really isn't flat-out untrue, though.  If you don't like the use of the words 'abnormal' and 'severe,' let me try putting it this way instead: when you tell them that you lack the training and experience to help them deal with their issues, you are saying that dealing with their issues would require training and experience.  The implication is that what they're going through is not something that the average person can relate to or understand without going to school and learning to do so. 

I have said nothing about the "average person".  I've only talked about myself.  What I have said is that I personally do not have bipolar disorder, have not researched bipolar disorder, and have not really spent any time having a frank discussion with someone about their bipolar disorder (except for now maybe).  You can take my "I don't know anything about bipolar disorder" and extrapolate any number of things about my opinions about mental disorders and the medical/pharmaceutical industry in America, but in this case what I say is literally what I mean -- I don't know anything about bipolar disorder.

It's because of the fact that you may not struggle with something that I struggle with which makes you a perfect person to talk to. Every single person has their own view and experiences, and I think it's sad that you denigrate your own experiences on the matter of being human and a living creature.

Eh.  I don't know about denigration.  I have found that I'm happier when I keep my mouth shut unless I'm absolutely sure I know what I'm talking about.  I'm an introverted person and a self-conscious and critical person.  In this particular hypothetical case, I would probably not feel confident giving any concrete advice outside of, of course, "go talk to X, who will be able to give much better advice to you".

Also, I could say you're just potentially creating the problem which you say prevents you from doing anything. You don't speak to people about their bipolarism, so you don't understand, so you don't talk to them. See the circular logic in that?

To be clear, what we're talking about is, at this point, a 100% hypothetical situation.  I have never had a friend come up to me wanting to talk about their bipolar disorder.  Moreover, I thought I'd made clear that I think talking to people is important, and I wouldn't turn away a friend in need, though I'm not sure how comfortable I would be giving concrete input.  It's not like I am in a willful state of ignorance about bipolar because I refuse to talk about it with my friends -- it's because I haven't needed to know anything about it to date.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Jaffa on March 07, 2014, 12:25:38 AM
@ Scheavo: To be honest, even though I agree with the larger point you’re trying to make, I still don't think homosexuality is a very good comparison.  It’s true that the way people react to mental disorders can cause problems, but even if you boil those problems away, you still have to deal with the basic issues of the disorder itself.  Even if there were no social stigmas attached to depression, depression itself can be problematic.  Depression can have very real symptoms that can have very negative effects on people’s lives.  Of course, those symptoms can vary from case to case – some people dealing with depression will still be basically healthy, while others will sleep most of the day and then spend every waking hour eating their feelings until they’re morbidly obese.  Depends on the severity of the condition.  Which leads me quite nicely to my point: there’s no such thing as ‘severe homosexuality.’  It doesn’t have symptoms that can be measured in terms of severity.  It doesn’t have symptoms at all.

That’s why I’m not too comfortable with the comparison you’re making.  Being gay does not cause problems for anybody any more than being straight does.  The way society reacts to people being gay is the only problem.  Whereas with mental disorders, the way society reacts can be a problem, but the disorders themselves have underlying difficulties that have nothing to do with society.   

So, while I do understand what you’re trying to get at by making the parallel, I think you’re sort of trying to force the pieces to fit together better than they really do. 


@theseoafs: Just so you know, I’m not trying to talk you into giving your friends advice.  If you don’t have any advice to give them, fair enough.  I can understand that.  Nobody can be expected to be able to give advice on everything. 

I’m just not a big fan of telling people that they should talk to a professional.  For one thing, I do think it can send a bad message.  For another thing, I’m not sure it really accomplishes anything in the first place.  If somebody has already come to the conclusion that they’re dealing with bipolarism (or some other mental disorder), chances are pretty good that the idea of talking to a psychiatrist has already crossed their mind. 

Also, I think there’s a bit of a misconception about how skilled the average professional really is.  I once had a psychiatrist tell me that I should wear brighter colors because dark clothing put me in a dark place.  Which blew me away, honestly.  I mean, it really gave me a new perspective on life, you know?  Up until that point, I had thought I was depressed because of things like my unhealthy relationship with my brother, my desperate craving for approval, my tendency to overanalyze everything while always focusing on worst-case scenarios, my oversensitivity, and the general presence of so much hatred and intolerance in the world.  But, nope!  Turns out I just wore too many black shirts.  Thanks for the life-changing fashion tip, doc; here’s a thousand dollars. 

… Sorry.  I didn’t mean for that to turn into a personal rant.  :lol  The point is, it turns out that trained professionals don’t necessarily have any sagely wisdom, profound insight, or brilliant advice to offer.  Professionals are capable of being just as idiotic as anybody else. 
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: chknptpie on March 07, 2014, 05:58:10 AM
I haven't really read all the posts in this debate... but my mother is bi-polar and I am so happy she see's a doctor to keep her prescriptions in check.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: theseoafs on March 07, 2014, 08:00:44 AM
I’m just not a big fan of telling people that they should talk to a professional.  For one thing, I do think it can send a bad message.  For another thing, I’m not sure it really accomplishes anything in the first place.  If somebody has already come to the conclusion that they’re dealing with bipolarism (or some other mental disorder), chances are pretty good that the idea of talking to a psychiatrist has already crossed their mind. 

Okay, well I can't fix my friend's bipolar disorder, and apparently a doctor also can't, so what happens now?  I say "sorry, that sucks" and move on?
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Jaffa on March 07, 2014, 09:40:20 AM
I sincerely apologize if that's how I'm coming across here. 

I'm not saying a doctor definitely can't help them.  As I said earlier, I'm not trying to disregard the tools of psychiatry and medication altogether.  Doctors do help people.  Medication does help people.  My point is that there are no guarantees.  There’s no ‘correct’ thing for a person with a mental disorder to do, because every person is different.  Some might need therapy, others might just need a friendly ear to talk to. 
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: theseoafs on March 07, 2014, 09:44:42 AM
I understand the point you're trying to make, but "some doctors and therapists are more effective than others, therefore you shouldn't suggest to people that they get professional help if they have disorders" seems like an absurd conclusion to draw.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: jammindude on March 07, 2014, 09:56:46 AM
The #1 rule of ANY disorder...even if it's an EATING disorder.

The person has to *want* help...the person has to *want* to change.   Period.   If they think that they are better off without the doctor and the medication, there's not a damn thing anyone is going to be able to do for them until they decide differently. 

If they decide that their lives are unmanageable, and they do, in fact, need help, then there are many options.   Some options may work, some may not.  But there still has to be that determination.    One cannot just set out to solve a problem and say "Well, I talked to a doctor, and I got worse.   So doctors DON'T WORK."   Or "Well, I took a medication, and I got worse...so medications DON'T WORK."    Or  "Well, I tried taking fish oil and adjusting my diet with no effect...so this DOESN'T WORK."   

Anyone who wants to solve a problem has to be determined enough to see beyond the stumbling blocks.     The inherent problem with bipolar, is that the disorder itself sometimes works against this idea.    As my wife once very profoundly said, "The disorder WILL FIGHT TO PROTECT ITSELF."     I always thought that was an amazing thought.    Bipolar is unique in that regard.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Jaffa on March 07, 2014, 02:12:21 PM
I understand the point you're trying to make, but "some doctors and therapists are more effective than others, therefore you shouldn't suggest to people that they get professional help if they have disorders" seems like an absurd conclusion to draw.

Perhaps.  But I think it’s worth keeping in mind that if somebody does take your advice and talk to a professional, they might end up wasting thousands of dollars talking to somebody who never helps them at all. 

Besides, the competence of doctors was only one facet of my reasoning.  My basic point is that professional help isn’t always effective, ideal, or even necessary.  It may be helpful, it may be useless, or it might even cause more problems.  The point is, you don't know, so why bring it up? 
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: hefdaddy42 on March 08, 2014, 06:44:17 AM
Scheavo, I read everything you have so passionately posted here, and my heart goes out to you.

All I can add is that bipolarism runs in my wife's family.  Her brother and father both have it, and having been through multiple episodes with them throughout the 16 years I've know them, my humble opinion is that if what THEY have isn't to be considered a disorder, then it's a meaningless word and there ARE no disorders.  What THEY have desperately requires treatment and attention or it is devastatingly destructive to their lives and the lives of their loved ones. 

And now, for the last year or so, my oldest daughter has started to exhibit some of the symptoms, and is currently on some medication as well as therapy.  God help her, and us all.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Scheavo on March 09, 2014, 06:21:31 PM
@ Scheavo: To be honest, even though I agree with the larger point you’re trying to make, I still don't think homosexuality is a very good comparison.  It’s true that the way people react to mental disorders can cause problems, but even if you boil those problems away, you still have to deal with the basic issues of the disorder itself.  Even if there were no social stigmas attached to depression, depression itself can be problematic.  Depression can have very real symptoms that can have very negative effects on people’s lives.  Of course, those symptoms can vary from case to case – some people dealing with depression will still be basically healthy, while others will sleep most of the day and then spend every waking hour eating their feelings until they’re morbidly obese.  Depends on the severity of the condition.  Which leads me quite nicely to my point: there’s no such thing as ‘severe homosexuality.’  It doesn’t have symptoms that can be measured in terms of severity.  It doesn’t have symptoms at all.

That’s why I’m not too comfortable with the comparison you’re making.  Being gay does not cause problems for anybody any more than being straight does.  The way society reacts to people being gay is the only problem.  Whereas with mental disorders, the way society reacts can be a problem, but the disorders themselves have underlying difficulties that have nothing to do with society.   

So, while I do understand what you’re trying to get at by making the parallel, I think you’re sort of trying to force the pieces to fit together better than they really do. 

Two things don't have to be exactly a like for them to be similar. I don't think pointing out what thing don't have in common is a very good argument against what two things do have in common.

The issue I have is that you're still employing an ethics when you say depression is bad. You employ an ethics, even though I'm fairly sure you don't think there is objective morality or ethics.

Imagine you get depressed, start not to feel too good. Maybe you want ot say that's bad. Maybe you want to say it's an opportunity. Personally, I look to it more as an opportunity. And if society in general took that attitude, depression would be a hell of a lot different. There are the physical characteristics and emotions, and then there are our responses to those emotions. I think it's very wrong to say emotions are bad, ever. What can only be bad and destructive are our responses to those emotions. And if we taught that more, I'd wager things would be drastically different.

I mean, how many great writers, great thinkers, and great people in history have had major depressive problems? A shitload of them. And in many cases, the depression went hand in hand with what they put out there. A few years ago, I remember a few papers that suggest a lot of the scientists and researchers in history would have had what we would consider autism. We call it a disorder, and want to "cure" it. How many gerat scientific discoveries might be prevent from happening if we "cured" autism? There's a lot of research being done into what causes autism, as if it's some genetic or pathological thing - when I would wager a good amount of money that the root of the problem is society and how we interact with each other. Pathologies, madnesses and mental disorders are an evolving concept.
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: Jaffa on March 09, 2014, 07:18:34 PM
The issue I have is that you're still employing an ethics when you say depression is bad.

I didn’t say depression was bad.  What I said was that depression can have symptoms that can affect people’s lives in very negative ways.  Do you dispute that?
Title: Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
Post by: theseoafs on March 09, 2014, 07:21:50 PM
I mean, how many great writers, great thinkers, and great people in history have had major depressive problems? A shitload of them. And in many cases, the depression went hand in hand with what they put out there.

Yes, a lot of great people have had an array of mental issues.  That doesn'