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Dream Theater => Dream Theater => Topic started by: Ħ on July 11, 2012, 12:50:18 PM
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It's the keyboard tones!
Seriously - the music is well-written, all the musicians including James are on fire, mixing and production are great (save for awkward transition cuts in Voices and Space-Dye Vest). But you know what? Kevin's choice of tones for the keyboard parts are just awful. Here's a couple examples that come to mind:
- the wobbly strings in Caught In A Web
- the weak, thin strings in Scarred's outro
- the whiny synth sound in Lie's chorus
- the sustenance-lacking grand piano in Space-Dye Vest
But they're all over the place. Honestly, it's Awake's version of the triggered snare. Other than that, Awake is pretty darn good! But (and nothing to say of his present talent) Kevin just had an awful ear in 1993.
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ahh the scarred outro is so good. love that patch
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Nah. There's nothing wrong with it.
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But they're all over the place. Honestly, it's Awake's version of the triggered snare. Other than that, Awake is pretty darn good! But (and nothing to say of his present talent) Kevin just had an awful keyboard in 1993.
Fixed. :P
Aside from the piano sound, that was probably about the best synths sounded in 1994. I actually like the synth string sound, especially the "wobbly" strings in CIAW. I too hate the keyboard sound in Lie, but aside from that, I have no problem with the sounds. Not a lot of variety of sounds on the album, but the few sounds he uses, I like.
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Nah. There's nothing wrong with it.
This. Awake is Dream Theater's best sounding album as a whole.
Most notably JP's guitar tone never got as good as on Awake.
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The Scarred solo is one of the best moments on the album. I don't hear anything wrong with the other keyboard parts either. Or the 'triggered snare' of Images and Words. It's one of many things that make that album one of DT's finest.
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Also, JP's songwriting was at it's peak. The lyrics on that record are great for a Dream Theater album.
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Is this the bizarro world thread? ???
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Er, yeah, I explicitly said that everything else about the album was great (which includes the lyrics, JP's tone, JP's playing, etc.).
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Er, yeah, I explicitly said that everything else about the album was great (which includes the lyrics, JP's tone, JP's playing, etc.).
I know, I just wanted to state my love for Awake once again :)
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- the wobbly strings in Caught In A Web
- the weak, thin strings in Scarred's outro
- the whiny synth sound in Lie's chorus
- the sustenance-lacking grand piano in Space-Dye Vest
Honestly, I totally agree with you, insofar as to say that that's exactly what turned me off when I first started listening to the album. But over time it really grew on me. I think it just gives the album a completely different kind of vibe, and LaBrie's vocals reflect it very well.
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Er, yeah, I explicitly said that everything else about the album was great (which includes the lyrics, JP's tone, JP's playing, etc.).
And I'm reiterating why I think the whole record is great. Keyboard tones are fine. I've never thought anything other than that.
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Nah Awake is perfect, especially the keyboards.
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Kevin has stated once that, though he doesn't really like the way Awake is produced, he likes the way the production reflected on his keyboard sound and that he liked all those sounds. So he'd like a word with you. I'll dig up the interview from The Mooreatorium when I find the time.
(I finally did that "X would like a word with you" thing, and I got Kevin Moore into it. DTF got a hold of my soul.)
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I was never particularly attracted to KM's keyboard sounds, but they don't sound especially objectionable on Awake either. In my view, Awake's main problems come from its songwriting.
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It's the keyboard tones!
Seriously - the music is well-written, all the musicians including James are on fire, mixing and production are great (save for awkward transition cuts in Voices and Space-Dye Vest). But you know what? Kevin's choice of tones for the keyboard parts are just awful. Here's a couple examples that come to mind:
- the wobbly strings in Caught In A Web
- the weak, thin strings in Scarred's outro
- the whiny synth sound in Lie's chorus
- the sustenance-lacking grand piano in Space-Dye Vest
But they're all over the place. Honestly, it's Awake's version of the triggered snare. Other than that, Awake is pretty darn good! But (and nothing to say of his present talent) Kevin just had an awful ear in 1993.
I could not agree more (except that Awake is not one of my least favorites--it's actually right about in the middle for me). In some places, it's fine. But there are a few, such as on CIAW, that I just can't get past and it ultimately ruins the song for me.
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DTF got a hold of my soul.
This is good.
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What's with the parody threads lately?
rumborak
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Aside from the piano sound, that was probably about the best synths sounded in 1994. I actually like the synth string sound, especially the "wobbly" strings in CIAW.
:metal
Also, Blob defending Awake on something means the attack is probably invalid.
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What's with the parody threads lately?
rumborak
This isn't a parody thread. ???
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The Awake keyboards sound magnificent. That is all.
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(Most of) You guys are weird.
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The Key patches are so awesome! Awake is one of DT's best albums when it comes to keyboard patches
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I don't mean to sound ageist by saying this but it could have something to do with the fact that you were only 2 or 3 when this came out so it's a lot easier for stuff from the early 90s to sound weird/lame/dated/(insert whatever negative adjective that would best describe your overall dissatisfaction with the keyboard issues you mentioned) whereas those of us that grew up on the stuff are well aware that the keyboard patches were very up to date and well-executed fot its era.
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(Most of) You guys are weird.
Thank you.
I think most of you Symbol-Name-People are weird.
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I don't mean to sound ageist by saying this but it could have something to do with the fact that you were only 2 or 3 when this came out so it's a lot easier for stuff from the early 90s to sound weird/lame/dated/(insert whatever negative adjective that would best describe your overall dissatisfaction with the keyboard issues you mentioned) whereas those of us that grew up on the stuff are well aware that the keyboard patches were very up to date and well-executed fot its era.
Nah man, that has nothing to do with it. Most of my favorite music is from the 90's.
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What's with the parody threads lately?
rumborak
rumby, I wish it was :(
H is young, someday he will understand why Awake is better than Boyfriend.
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Don't talk shit about KM. He used to live very close to me no joke. (I'm from turkey.) He was sort of a silent man. ( :lol) One nice memory of mine was seeing him in a record store. (He bought some Jethro Tull albums) I didnt talk to him or anything but it WAS him. 100% sure.
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I don't mean to sound ageist by saying this but it could have something to do with the fact that you were only 2 or 3 when this came out so it's a lot easier for stuff from the early 90s to sound weird/lame/dated/(insert whatever negative adjective that would best describe your overall dissatisfaction with the keyboard issues you mentioned) whereas those of us that grew up on the stuff are well aware that the keyboard patches were very up to date and well-executed fot its era.
Well, I'm older than YOU, and I mostly agree with H. I love Awake as an album. But as I said above, I agree with him that some of the keyboard sounds on this album are really offputting to me as well. On most songs, it isn't that big an issue, but on a few like CIAW, I just can't stand it.
Don't talk shit about KM.
Nobody in this thread is. They are talking about his keyboard patches, which is perfectly fair game. Please don't tell people what they can and can't say on this forum if you plan on being able to stick around here.
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I don't mean to sound ageist by saying this but it could have something to do with the fact that you were only 2 or 3 when this came out so it's a lot easier for stuff from the early 90s to sound weird/lame/dated/(insert whatever negative adjective that would best describe your overall dissatisfaction with the keyboard issues you mentioned) whereas those of us that grew up on the stuff are well aware that the keyboard patches were very up to date and well-executed fot its era.
I'm hip to this - I was... 24 when Awake was released, and it sounded well within its time back in 1994. Actually better, as Images and Words and Awake blew my 20-something self away.
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I don't think I've ever heard a Dream Theater keyboard patch I significantly disliked.
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I don't think I've ever heard a Dream Theater keyboard patch I significantly disliked.
This. Even in the dueling solos that get annoying, I've liked all of them.
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I actually don't have a problem with the synths for the most part. My problem with Awake is that most of the songs are just awkward as fuck to listen to. All the vocal melodies sound out of place, the riffs are awkward, and nothing on the album seems to mesh with anything else. It's probably my least favorite DT album overall.
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My problem with Awake is that I've never been able to shake the first impression that it gave me. After I&W, I knew the next album would have a hard time living up, but the first 3 songs I heard on Awake were just such a complete letdown. For years, I started Awake at Erotomania.
Now I've grown to love Innocence Faded, but I can definitely still live without 6:00 and CIAW. The Mirror and Lie as well.
Awake contains 2 of my Top 5 DT tracks, Scarred (#3) and Space Dye Vest (#5) and I rank it as my #4 or #5 DT album.
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@Brother H: No.
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The keys on Awake are spot on. That album has such a great sound to it. Everything really meshes well.
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The keys on Awake are spot on. That album has such a great sound to it. Everything really meshes well.
This so very much! "Awake" was the first DT record I bought back in 1996. It instantly blew me away (I liked it even better than "Images and Words", which was my introduction to the band... and everything clicked on first listen) and to this day it remains my favorite DT record. I never got some of the criticism it gets, mainly the criticism that's directed to the songs being all over the place and having abrupt changes within them. Well, (to me, at least) that's pretty standard fare for DT and I never had a problem with it (on any record they did... though there's some DT offerings I'm not so fond of, namely "Octavarium", "Systematic Chaos" and "Black Clouds and Silver Linings"). Plus, the songwriting is top notch (there isn't a single wasted riff or arrangement here, in my book) and the record features some of their most interesting, soul-searching lyrics ("Scarred" in particular is pretty impressive, lyric-wise... arguably one of JP's very best lyrical contributions, rivaled only by "Lines in the Sand") the band ever did. And I like the keyboard tones... the distorted one in "Caught in the Web" (one of the band's most underrated- though I actually hate the expression- songs) is particularly wicked.
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The keys on Awake are spot on. That album has such a great sound to it. Everything really meshes well.
This so very much! "Awake" was the first DT record I bought back in 1996. It instantly blew me away (I liked it even better than "Images and Words", which was my introduction to the band... and everything clicked on first listen) and to this day it remains my favorite DT record. I never got some of the criticism it gets, mainly the criticism that's directed to the songs being all over the place and having abrupt changes within them. Well, (to me, at least) that's pretty standard fare for DT and I never had a problem with it (on any record they did... though there's some DT offerings I'm not so fond of, namely "Octavarium", "Systematic Chaos" and "Black Clouds and Silver Linings"). Plus, the songwriting is top notch (there isn't a single wasted riff or arrangement here, in my book) and the record features some of their most interesting, soul-searching lyrics ("Scarred" in particular is pretty impressive, lyric-wise... arguably one of JP's very best lyrical contributions, rivaled only by "Lines in the Sand") the band ever did. And I like the keyboard tones... the distorted one in "Caught in the Web" (one of the band's most underrated- though I actually hate the expression- songs) is particularly wicked.
Great post. :tup
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Awake is low on my DT list. It's just one of those albums I don't gravitate to as much anymore and it's not the keys.
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The keys on Awake are spot on. That album has such a great sound to it. Everything really meshes well.
This so very much! "Awake" was the first DT record I bought back in 1996. It instantly blew me away (I liked it even better than "Images and Words", which was my introduction to the band... and everything clicked on first listen) and to this day it remains my favorite DT record. I never got some of the criticism it gets, mainly the criticism that's directed to the songs being all over the place and having abrupt changes within them. Well, (to me, at least) that's pretty standard fare for DT and I never had a problem with it (on any record they did... though there's some DT offerings I'm not so fond of, namely "Octavarium", "Systematic Chaos" and "Black Clouds and Silver Linings"). Plus, the songwriting is top notch (there isn't a single wasted riff or arrangement here, in my book) and the record features some of their most interesting, soul-searching lyrics ("Scarred" in particular is pretty impressive, lyric-wise... arguably one of JP's very best lyrical contributions, rivaled only by "Lines in the Sand") the band ever did. And I like the keyboard tones... the distorted one in "Caught in the Web" (one of the band's most underrated- though I actually hate the expression- songs) is particularly wicked.
Great post. :tup
Kevin Moore's tone was always excellent. When it comes to lacking keyboard sounds, I could write an essay on Rudess' forays on Train of Thought through Black Clouds and Silver Linings.
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Yeah. Of the three keyboard players actually JR has occasionally stood out negatively in terms of sound. I doubt KM or DS would have put a Bebot solo into their songs.
rumborak
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I've held the same opinion about KevMo's keyboard work on Awake for a long time, actually. I think half of KevMo's performances on the record are some of his best work... and half seem completely phoned-in. Two of those performances, for me, have always been "Caught in a Web" and "Lie". But "Space-Dye Vest" and "Scarred" have always been favorites of mine, so I can't say I know where you're coming from in that respect.
Regardless, Awake is still in my top 3 Dream Theater records. Jordan's choice of patches and parts has been hit or miss as well, I think, though this has been changing a lot lately. I really do think ADTOE includes some of the best keyboarding in the DT discography.
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Yeah. Of the three keyboard players actually JR has occasionally stood out negatively in terms of sound. I doubt KM or DS would have put a Bebot solo into their songs.
rumborak
That's a good thing for JR. I mean, sure Bebot wasn't pretty, but JR actually experiments and is constantly pushing the sounds and technology to create something new, and even helping pioneer new instruments, so you're going to win some and lose some.
KM and DS on the other hand were both pretty safe and limited with their sounds, and never had much diversity in tone or range of instruments, and that got tiring to me with those two, especially DS. JR is the more progressive and ambitious musician. Huge plus for me.
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Kevin Moore's tone was always excellent. When it comes to lacking keyboard sounds, I could write an essay on Rudess' forays on Train of Thought through Black Clouds and Silver Linings.
Amen to that. Rudess' lead tone has left a lot to be desired at times. And while technically a wizard (insert pun), he goes overboard with the overplaying way too often, especially live, which is not something you could ever accuse Moore or Sherinian of.
I've held the same opinion about KevMo's keyboard work on Awake for a long time, actually. I think half of KevMo's performances on the record are some of his best work... and half seem completely phoned-in. Two of those performances, for me, have always been "Caught in a Web" and "Lie". But "Space-Dye Vest" and "Scarred" have always been favorites of mine, so I can't say I know where you're coming from in that respect.
See, I chalk the performances in Lie and Caught in a Web up to being minimalist for a reason; those kind of heavy songs do not always need all kinds of crazy keyboard leads and solos, but just a bit of background atmospheric stuff, and that is what Kevin Moore provided in those songs. Similarly, Rudess did the same for As I Am.
Yeah. Of the three keyboard players actually JR has occasionally stood out negatively in terms of sound. I doubt KM or DS would have put a Bebot solo into their songs.
rumborak
That's a good thing for JR. I mean, sure Bebot wasn't pretty, but JR actually experiments and is constantly pushing the sounds and technology to create something new, and even helping pioneer new instruments, so you're going to win some and lose some.
KM and DS on the other hand were both pretty safe and limited with their sounds, and never had much diversity in tone or range of instruments, and that got tiring to me with those two, especially DS. JR is the more progressive and ambitious musician. Huge plus for me.
That's a fair point regarding Rudess, but in regards to Moore, it is not. It might sound safe now, since tons of prog metal bands incorporate those kind of keyboards into their own brand of prog metal, but back in the late 80s/early 90s, what other metal bands featured the same style that Kevin Moore was utilizing? Hardly any. Just like it could be argued that Dream Theater created a whole new brand of prog metal, that same argument could be made that Kevin Moore provided the blueprint for how to play keyboards in a prog metal (since other metal bands that did prog prior to them only used keyboard sparingly). Like I said, it might sound safe now, but back then, it was anything but. DT inspired a whole wave of prog metal "DT wannabe" bands, and the keyboard sounds were a huge part of the sound that those other bands tried to mimic.
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I don't think I ever disliked the keys on any album. My favorite keyboard work is Awake and my least favorite is probably Black Clouds.
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Yeah. Of the three keyboard players actually JR has occasionally stood out negatively in terms of sound. I doubt KM or DS would have put a Bebot solo into their songs.
rumborak
That's a good thing for JR. I mean, sure Bebot wasn't pretty, but JR actually experiments and is constantly pushing the sounds and technology to create something new, and even helping pioneer new instruments, so you're going to win some and lose some.
KM and DS on the other hand were both pretty safe and limited with their sounds, and never had much diversity in tone or range of instruments, and that got tiring to me with those two, especially DS. JR is the more progressive and ambitious musician. Huge plus for me.
That's a fair point regarding Rudess, but in regards to Moore, it is not. It might sound safe now, since tons of prog metal bands incorporate those kind of keyboards into their own brand of prog metal, but back in the late 80s/early 90s, what other metal bands featured the same style that Kevin Moore was utilizing? Hardly any. Just like it could be argued that Dream Theater created a whole new brand of prog metal, that same argument could be made that Kevin Moore provided the blueprint for how to play keyboards in a prog metal (since other metal bands that did prog prior to them only used keyboard sparingly). Like I said, it might sound safe now, but back then, it was anything but. DT inspired a whole wave of prog metal "DT wannabe" bands, and the keyboard sounds were a huge part of the sound that those other bands tried to mimic.
That's a fair point too, as you know I'm not much into the prog genre to really know where he stands there in relation to what anyone else was doing at the time. But from WDADU to IaW to Awake, I don't hear a lot of changes in sound. I'm not saying there aren't changes there, because Awake definitely has some very different sounds in there compared to IaW, but I don't consider the exploration of different sounds to be a defining part of his sound like it is for JR, who is still so enthusiastically exploring new sounds and concepts even after all these years. And that enthusiasm excites me every time they step into the studio.
Granted, the difference in technology in the early 90s compared to now is obviously a huge factor there, but I'm just judging what's on the albums.
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I've always liked the keyboard sounds on Awake, they are easily the best sounds Kevin used in DT and I might even call them the best key sounds on any DT album! (call me crazy if you want :P) The only improvement I can think of would be having a real grand piano on Voices (the same one he used on SDV).
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Personally I hardly ever make comparisons.. When there is a change in the line up, I am always inclined to embrace the new guy... and keep following the leaving member's career... and I am more than happy to evolve with the band I love if there is a slight change to the sound... provided that there is a consistency in the quality of course....
I totally understand the tendency to compare though.. it's just me.. my personality.. my design...
having said that I love Awake.. I've always loved it... brilliant song-writing.. huge sound .. excellent musicianship including KM's awesome work on keys...
yet again.. I don't make comparisons... could it be better with JR on keys?.. or with 'current Kevin'? or different tones? I wouldn't know.. so it could well be the case where the OP is totally right and I'm not getting it.. It's just not how I look at it...
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I don't think I ever disliked the keys on any album. My favorite keyboard work is Awake and my least favorite is probably Black Clouds.
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I still think Awake is the most interesting DT album to listen to because of the lack of cheese! Although i have nothing against cheese i still feel that without cheese you challenge the listener to use their ears and mind instead of their taste and that is something rare these days even for DT!
(https://www.countrydairy.com/assets/graphics/icon_cheese.png)
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My problem with Awake is . . . nothing. I have zero problems with Awake.
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If we are to compare between the keyboardists, I think Kevin's keyboard work, although highly interesting and enjoyable to me, takes a back seat to his composing. He's really a composer/creative person that just happened to play the keyboards. As for Derek and JR, "winning some and losing some", as blob described it, is a trait of his progressiveness as a musician and that is why I tend to like Derek's work better - his "keyboard shredding" style appeals to my taste and I like his solo work.
But the best Dream Theater keyboardist out of the three is definitely Jordan. He's the best fit and has everything they need. Kev is more of an individual and Derek, although great, is one-dimensional. Jordan is the right fit. He's versatile, creative and has the right working relationship with the rest of the guys.
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If I had a a problem with the keyboards on Awake, it would be this..On Awake, they seem to take a back seat. Kind of coloring in here and there. On I&W , the keyboards were far more active and involved. On Awake, they just seem so passive.
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My biggest complaint with Awake is the same complaint Kevin has, the production on the keys is weak compared with the rest of the instruments. It's as if he was pushed all the way to the background unless his keyboard was the primary instrument for that section. Listening to Derek play songs from Awake is how I imagined the production should have been, but alas it is not. Awake is still my #1 album.
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My biggest complaint with Awake is the same complaint Kevin has, the production on the keys is weak compared with the rest of the instruments. It's as if he was pushed all the way to the background unless his keyboard was the primary instrument for that section. Listening to Derek play songs from Awake is how I imagined the production should have been, but alas it is not. Awake is still my #1 album.
Actually, your complaint is exactly the opposite of his - he likes the keyboard tones but not the general tone :)
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The keys on Awake is my absolute favourite among other albums. They are all deep, melodic and well played.
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My problem with Awake is . . . nothing. I have zero problems with Awake.
This, sound-wise. The first three songs could gladly be chopped off, but the keyboard tone has never been issue to me.
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My problem with Awake is . . . nothing. I have zero problems with Awake.
This, sound-wise. The first three songs could gladly be chopped off, but the keyboard tone has never been issue to me.
I'd take any of the first 3 songs over Erotomania, Lifting Shadows or Space-Dye Vest.
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My problem with Awake is . . . nothing. I have zero problems with Awake.
This, sound-wise. The first three songs could gladly be chopped off, but the keyboard tone has never been issue to me.
I'd take any of the first 3 songs over Erotomania, Lifting Shadows or Space-Dye Vest.
Well, I don't. 6:00, while it has really cool drumming, is pretty forgettable otherwise, as is Innocence Faded. Caught in a Web isn't really forgettable, but something bugs me about it. I can't really name it, but I just can't enjoy the song.
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awake rules. every song
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Well, I don't. 6:00, while it has really cool drumming, is pretty forgettable otherwise, as is Innocence Faded. Caught in a Web isn't really forgettable, but something bugs me about it. I can't really name it, but I just can't enjoy the song.
Yeah, I guess 6:00 does have cool drumming. Honestly, for 6:00 and Caught In A Web, it's the vocals that sell those songs for me. They have some cool riffs, drumming, other parts, etc. But the vocals are just so awesome that it's reason enough to listen.
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awake rules. every song
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Innocence faded is a real one-of-a-kind song for me, in the sense that I pretty much hated it after hearing it for the first couple of times and thought it was cheesy, but after a while it grew so much on me that it became a top 20 favorite. That never happened with anything else, ever.
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Innocence faded is a real one-of-a-kind song for me, in the sense that I pretty much hated it after hearing it for the first couple of times and thought it was cheesy, but after a while it grew so much on me that it became a top 20 favorite. That never happened with anything else, ever.
That was me with Home. But Innocence Faded really did grow on me quite a bit.
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awake rules. every song except for Space-Dye Vest
FTFM
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awake rules. every song except for Space-Dye Vest
FTFM
If it wasn't for those annoying samples, Space-Dye Vest would have been a masterpiece.
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awake rules. every song except for Space-Dye Vest
FTFM
how dare you?!?!
my opinion was an undeniable fact
anyway, the samples help set the helpless mood of the song
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awake rules. every song
Except Erotomania. I just can't get into that song. :/
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anyway, the samples help set the helpless mood of the song
Correction, they TRY to set the helpless mood of the song. I've heard that a thousand times and it doesn't change the fact that they do not have the same effect on me and instead only annoy the crap out of me and distract me from the piano melody which would have otherwise done a magnificent job of setting the helpless mood.
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i think youre getting a little too passionate over sound clips. they are there for a reason. some of the clips more than others but everything in the song is to paint the picture of a man so alone that he fell in love with a girl in a magazine
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i think youre getting a little too passionate over sound clips. they are there for a reason. some of the clips more than others but everything in the song is to paint the picture of a man so alone that he fell in love with a girl in a magazine
that's deep brah
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i think youre getting a little too passionate over sound clips. they are there for a reason. some of the clips more than others but everything in the song is to paint the picture of a man so alone that he fell in love with a girl in a magazine
Mostly it's that last set of sound clips that annoys me. Conan O'Brien? Ugh... I mean, it could have something to do with the fact that I don't like Conan in general. And to hear his voice in the middle of what in terms of composition is one of DT's most beautiful songs, it's dreadful.
And yes, I understand that they're there to pain the picture, but I think the song would be infinitely better without those samples.
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in houston they say that ?
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I actually don't have a problem with the synths for the most part. My problem with Awake is that most of the songs are just awkward as fuck to listen to. All the vocal melodies sound out of place, the riffs are awkward, and nothing on the album seems to mesh with anything else. It's probably my least favorite DT album overall.
That's definitely my issue with Scarred - and a little with Voices, which has the proportionally longest third act in Dream Theater history, but I don't get much of that on the whole. I think, for me, my only issue is that I find it a slightly "worthy" album, if that makes sense? It's quite claustrophobic, very refined and grandiose without any real sense of fun - there's no excitement, sense of exhilaration. Even Erotomania, which I've always quite liked, I only really "got" when I saw it live, in a room full of people jumping to the beat, chanting, the riffs sprawling out of the guitar like living beings.
My least favourite Dream Theater songs are the ones, generally, that are more earnest. I find it a little... well, a little tedious, to be honest. Even the average songs on their later albums are good, clean fun - Forsaken, Panic Attack, A Rite of Passage; all you need do is crank up the volume and you're already having a good time. Great riffs, great melodies, great little packets of energy. The more average songs on their earlier albums - Lifting Shadows off a Dream, The Ones Who Help to Set the Sun, Innocence Faded... they're all so dry. That's the word I've been searching for for the entire post, actually. It's why I get almost nothing out of a song like Lines in the Sand (shame on me) but could happily listen to an entire album of Just Let Me Breathes. Why Voices is far and away my least favourite part of A Mind Beside Itself - the other two movements are absolute gems. Why Octavarium beats Six Degrees beats A Change of Seasons. Why I'd rather spend 9:30 listening to Misunderstood than Metropolis, every single time.
I recently worked out which songs would be in my top fifty - not to post it, (not least because the new album would be out by the time it was my turn and I'd have to do it again anyway,) but because I was interested in how I'd go about choosing them. And I took note everything - I've got a big text document where I logged every idle thought as I whittled the songs away. Never realised quite how unconventional it'd turn out to be. If that document ever leaked - well, I'd be chased out of here with pitchforks. Probably pitchforks with feces on the prongs, just for luck. To offer a glimpse - The Answer Lies Within made the cut, and Voices very emphatically didn't.
Dear me. This sounds like I hate their back catalogue. I don't, far from it. I'd only managed to cut eighteen songs before I was staring at the screen going "these are all brilliant, I can't possibly file this down to just fifty." The only song in this post I'd consider bad by any stretch of the imagination is The Ones Who Help to Set the Sun. It's all good. Awake's just... less good than many of the others. Also better than a fair handful. Rather more average album than most - plenty of very good songs, very few truly great ones - but it's a pleasant listen. Nice moment in DT history.
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Rob, can you please, please post your Top 50? I think that I wouldn't be alone in wanting to see that (especially your write-ups).
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I'm there with TAC. I&W was never going to be easy to follow and I had a very hard time with Awake for years. Some very good tracks but I struggled with half of it.
It wasn't the keys for me but the guitars. I hate the seven string. Hate it. The guitar should not be that far down. Nothing good comes of it. After the shimmery beauty of I&W guitars these low down growly beasts were in their place.
And JLB's voice doesn't fit right.
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Rob, can you please, please post your Top 50? I think that I wouldn't be alone in wanting to see that (especially your write-ups).
Hahahaha. As I said - fecal pitchforks!
No, alright, as you asked nicely, and as I've just done it in the last week anyway. I've not written any blurbs or sorted out a ranking - and frankly I don't intend to, whichever of these I'm listening to at the time is my favourite; the difference between a "23." and a "22." for instance is so minuscule that it'd change from second to second, let alone week to week - but here are the songs that made the cut:
- A Fortune in Lies
- Ytse Jam
- Only a Matter of Time
- Pull Me Under
- Take the Time
- Surrounded
- Under a Glass Moon
- Wait for Sleep
- Learning to Live
- Don't Look Past Me
- 6:00
- Caught in a Web
- Erotomania
- The Silent Man
- Lie
- Space-Dye Vest
- Raise the Knife
- The Way it Used to Be
- Peruvian Skies
- Trial of Tears
- Cover My Eyes
- Hollow Years
- Speak to Me
- Fatal Tragedy
- The Spirit Carries On
- Blind Faith
- Misunderstood
- The Great Debate
- Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
- Stream of Consciousness
- In the Name of God
- The Root of All Evil
- The Answer Lies Within
- These Walls
- I Walk Beside You
- Panic Attack
- Sacrificed Sons
- Octavarium
- In the Presence of Enemies pt. 1
- Forsaken
- Constant Motion
- The Dark Eternal Night
- Wither
- The Count of Tuscany
- On the Backs of Angels
- Build Me Up, Break Me Down
- This is the Life
- Bridges in the Sky
- Breaking All Illusions
- Beneath the Surface
Rank-wise, I know Six Degrees is #50 because it only scraped in by the skin of its teeth. Among the top ten are Fatal Tragedy, The Root of All Evil, Octavarium, Beneath the Surface, The Dark Eternal Night, Peruvian Skies and Blind Faith, for certain - though they're not necessarily the top six. Outside of that? Eh, it's all good. The Count of Tuscany and The Great Debate are probably fairly low, Learning to Live and Stream of Consciousness are very very high (probably in the top ten most days, too)... I could probably come out with rough shapes. Tiers, definitely. But hey, it's all good. Getting the list anywhere shorter than eighty is "hard mode" - cutting the Mirror hurt, cutting Beyond This Life hurt, cutting A Change of Seasons hurt. (And it was the last one I did cut, #51, I left it in as long as I could - although more out of a sense of duty than anything else.) Hell, I obliterated Train of Thought, and I love that album to bits!
Anyway. Yes! Sorry for that little interlude, Awake fans. As we were.
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On an overall comparison of sound evolution of the different keyboard players, I find DS has made the least progress and KM the most. I totally love what he does on OSI.
rumborak
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awake rules. every song except for Space-Dye Vest
FTFM
how dare you?!?!
my opinion was an undeniable fact
Because my opinion trumps yours. :laugh:
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some of KM's keyboard patches do annoy me a bit, but i think the problem wasn't the actual keyboard sounds themselves, but rather the overall production of Awake. it's perhaps best described as 'five guys playing music in a decently large tin can stuffed with insulation, except the snare drum, which is in some bizarre canyon whose reverb suddenly cuts off after half a second' — sir Porntoy's arms would've needed to be enormously long to achieve that! it's DT's equivalent to ...And Justice for All: a lacking, overly complicated, and poorly-mixed followup to a classic album.
i also echo the sentiment about some parts blatantly being 'phoned in.' i think it's a major reason why i find the first three songs so lackluster and meh compared with the rest (all well-written, including "Lifting Shadows" and "Erotomania!").
and seriously: Awake being the band's best production? have you never listened to SDOIT or BCSL?!
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and seriously: Awake being the band's best production? have you never listened to SDOIT or BCSL?!
Yes. Have you ever listened to Awake ? On a good stereo, and not on just your iPod or computer speakers?
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Me? Yes.
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It's funny how Awake's production is described "bad" now. Well it's one of their best.
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Awake sounds awful on everything IMO, it's the worst sounding DT album in any setting I've tried. CD in car, CD in high end stereo sound system or 320kb/s mp3s on iPod. I wish they'd do a remix and remaster.
That has nothing to do with how good the songs on there is of course.
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Awake sounds awful on everything IMO, it's the worst sounding DT album in any setting I've tried. CD in car, CD in high end stereo sound system or 320kb/s mp3s on iPod. I wish they'd do a remix and remaster.
That has nothing to do with how good the songs on there is of course.
I don't think it sounds awful, but I do with they'd do a remix of it. It's certainly not the BEST sounding.
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Awake sounds awful on everything IMO, it's the worst sounding DT album in any setting I've tried.
So it sounds worse than WDADU? :\
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Awake sounds awful on everything IMO, it's the worst sounding DT album in any setting I've tried. CD in car, CD in high end stereo sound system or 320kb/s mp3s on iPod. I wish they'd do a remix and remaster.
That has nothing to do with how good the songs on there is of course.
Awake ripped in FLAC format sounds just fine to me.
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Awake sounds awful on everything IMO, it's the worst sounding DT album in any setting I've tried.
So it sounds worse than WDADU? :\
I didn't say that! I don't really listen to WDADU so it doesn't occur to me to compare.
At least 5 Awake songs are on my regular DT playlist so I tend to notice it more. I think AMBI and The Mirror sound better on LSFNY and that's a live CD! The bass is clearer and the keyboard blends in better, it's just how I hear it.
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Awake sounds awful on everything IMO, it's the worst sounding DT album in any setting I've tried. CD in car, CD in high end stereo sound system or 320kb/s mp3s on iPod. I wish they'd do a remix and remaster.
That has nothing to do with how good the songs on there is of course.
I don't think it sounds awful, but I do with they'd do a remix of it. It's certainly not the BEST sounding.
It is easily among the top 4 when talking strictly about "sound." WDADU, Scenes and everything from Train of Thought through A Dramatic Turn of Events are not in the same ballpark sound-wise as I&W, Awake, FII and 6DOIT.
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It is easily among the top 4 when talking strictly about "sound." WDADU, Scenes and everything from Train of Thought through A Dramatic Turn of Events are not in the same ballpark sound-wise as I&W, Awake, FII and 6DOIT.
It's got a very gritty, grungy sound to the way it's mixed, though. I don't like that. It almost sounds unpolished. Not quite as bad as a demo, but still, very raw. And frankly, I prefer a more polished, cleaner sound of albums like FII, 6 Degrees, etc.
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Awake sounds awful on everything IMO, it's the worst sounding DT album in any setting I've tried. CD in car, CD in high end stereo sound system or 320kb/s mp3s on iPod. I wish they'd do a remix and remaster.
That has nothing to do with how good the songs on there is of course.
I don't think it sounds awful, but I do with they'd do a remix of it. It's certainly not the BEST sounding.
It is easily among the top 4 when talking strictly about "sound." WDADU, Scenes and everything from Train of Thought through A Dramatic Turn of Events are not in the same ballpark sound-wise as I&W, Awake, FII and 6DOIT.
Don't you think you might be overlooking a technological factor?
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Nope.
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Nope.
Well if that isn't the best response ever :biggrin:
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Awake sounds awful on everything IMO, it's the worst sounding DT album in any setting I've tried. CD in car, CD in high end stereo sound system or 320kb/s mp3s on iPod. I wish they'd do a remix and remaster.
That has nothing to do with how good the songs on there is of course.
Awake ripped in FLAC format sounds just fine to me.
It sounds fine to me too (FLAC, through new audiophile soundcard, through studio monitor headphones), although not close to their very best in sound quality. I'd probably put it 4th, behind FII, SDOIT, and IaW. And I'd put a couple more well ahead of it if it weren't for compression too. It has always sounded a bit lifeless and flat to me. And that's not because it's an "older" album. Most of my favourite sounding albums are from that same era, or older. :tup
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Awake sounds awful on everything IMO, it's the worst sounding DT album in any setting I've tried. CD in car, CD in high end stereo sound system or 320kb/s mp3s on iPod. I wish they'd do a remix and remaster.
(https://i1075.photobucket.com/albums/w438/Christian_Yaple/rlm/8uGq5.gif)
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On an overall comparison of sound evolution of the different keyboard players, I find DS has made the least progress and KM the most. I totally love what he does on OSI.
rumborak
:tup
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indeed, no change in listening habitat makes Awake touch the glory of SDOIT or BCSL — even SC, blasted to the ceiling as it is, has a much higher production value than Awake.
- ridiculous snare. come on now. listen to "The Mirror" reprise at the end of "Lie" — that snare fill that ends the song is absolutely godawful because of the poor reverb choice. there's a reason gated reverb died with the '80s (and grunge)!
- speaking of grunge, DT has nothing to do with it. the "we can battle Nirvana!" attempt at rawer/darker/whatever was a poor decision. it's part of what makes Awake sound dated, while I&W is less dated (besides the triggered snare) even though it has more of the '80s production tricks.
- they murdered Petrucci's tone! all the rhythm guitars are beefy but hollowed out in all the wrong places. in addition to not being a grunge band, DT were not Pantera. (this is where my comparison to AJFA comes from: hollow guitars, ridiculously thin sound, drum heavy mix.)
ACOS fixed all of these issues-that-weren't-issues-until-they-tried-to-make-Awake-sound-like-grunge-Pantera, and then their production quality went beyond I&W with FII and onward.
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Nope.
Well if that isn't the best response ever :biggrin:
There was no need to elaborate. :)
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I've pumped Awake through great sound systems (many, many times) and it sounds farking incredible.
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It is easily among the top 4 when talking strictly about "sound." WDADU, Scenes and everything from Train of Thought through A Dramatic Turn of Events are not in the same ballpark sound-wise as I&W, Awake, FII and 6DOIT.
It's got a very gritty, grungy sound to the way it's mixed, though. I don't like that. It almost sounds unpolished. Not quite as bad as a demo, but still, very raw. And frankly, I prefer a more polished, cleaner sound of albums like FII, 6 Degrees, etc.
I have to agree with you there. That polished sound really started with FII.
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I have to agree with you there. That polished sound really started with FII.
Images and Words still sounded very clean, so that was good. But I would have liked to hear Images and Words (as well as Awake) mixed the way FII was.
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My problem with Awake is...... oh wait... it's their best album!!! :biggrin:
A very well rounded album.
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My problem with Awake is...... oh wait... it's their best album!!! :biggrin:
Exactly. :coolio
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I think the sound difference is a 100% technological and there's no strong or felt presence to the "polished" problem to that extent. Also the difference between the 90's sound and the 00's sound in DT albums is a matter of personal taste, nothing is better than another to be stated in a fact form.
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It's the keyboard tones!
I agree. And to be honest, I'm not a huge fan of the keyboard sounds DS had either. I think Jordan is a wiz (no pun intended) at finding the best sounding tones and samples.
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It's the keyboard tones!
I agree. And to be honest, I'm not a huge fan of the keyboard sounds DS had either. I think Jordan is a wiz (no pun intended) at finding the best sounding tones and samples.
Just out of curiosity, did you become a fan after JR joined? I've noticed in the past, and not with just DT, that fans don't connect as much with earlier band members than the ones they "Started with". Just my perception, could very well be wrong ;D I started with KM, and I like all 3. I think each brought their own flavor to the band.
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I started with KM, and I like all 3. I think each brought their own flavor to the band.
I agree with this. Yes, my personal favorite for a long time was Kevin. Derek brought an interesting understated style to DT, but you have to admit that of the three, Jordan really is the best fit for DT - especially now that the "goofy" patches are predominantly gone.
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It's the keyboard tones!
I agree. And to be honest, I'm not a huge fan of the keyboard sounds DS had either. I think Jordan is a wiz (no pun intended) at finding the best sounding tones and samples.
Just out of curiosity, did you become a fan after JR joined? I've noticed in the past, and not with just DT, that fans don't connect as much with earlier band members than the ones they "Started with". Just my perception, could very well be wrong ;D I started with KM, and I like all 3. I think each brought their own flavor to the band.
I didn't say I liked Jordan more, I just said I like his keyboard sounds. A lot of which has to do with today's technology vs the technology of the early 90's.
And I'm not necessarily more partial to Jordan because he's the guy I "started with". I started with MP too, and I personally think MM is more deserving and more skilled than MP. (not trying to start an MP vs MM debate, I swear.)
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It's the keyboard tones!
I agree. And to be honest, I'm not a huge fan of the keyboard sounds DS had either. I think Jordan is a wiz (no pun intended) at finding the best sounding tones and samples.
Just out of curiosity, did you become a fan after JR joined? I've noticed in the past, and not with just DT, that fans don't connect as much with earlier band members than the ones they "Started with". Just my perception, could very well be wrong ;D I started with KM, and I like all 3. I think each brought their own flavor to the band.
I started with JR. But for a long time Awake was my favorite album, and Kev was my favorite keyboard player. I've gone back and forth.
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Innocence faded is a real one-of-a-kind song for me, in the sense that I pretty much hated it after hearing it for the first couple of times and thought it was cheesy, but after a while it grew so much on me that it became a top 20 favorite. That never happened with anything else, ever.
That was me with Home. But Innocence Faded really did grow on me quite a bit.
I appreciated IF a lot more after hearing live on Score. That's the best version.
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I agree - Score version of IF is the best them.
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I appreciated IF a lot more after hearing live on Score. That's the best version.
I actually heard Innocence Faded on Score first. And then I picked up Awake, and I was still underwhelmed by it. But I dunno, it's like that for almost every song with DT.
Almost. I still don't see very much appeal in New Millennium or The Great Debate.
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Yes, keyboard sounds aren't always top notch on Awake (I love CIAW keys though). But that's not enough to make me love it less.
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I appreciated IF a lot more after hearing live on Score. That's the best version.
I actually heard Innocence Faded on Score first. And then I picked up Awake, and I was still underwhelmed by it. But I dunno, it's like that for almost every song with DT.
Almost. I still don't see very much appeal in New Millennium or The Great Debate.
Well, Innocence Faded and The Great debate are both top 10 DT songs for me. I get what you mean with New Millennium though, I don't like that song at all.
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I appreciated IF a lot more after hearing live on Score. That's the best version.
I actually heard Innocence Faded on Score first. And then I picked up Awake, and I was still underwhelmed by it. But I dunno, it's like that for almost every song with DT.
Almost. I still don't see very much appeal in New Millennium or The Great Debate.
Well, Innocence Faded and The Great debate are both top 10 DT songs for me. I get what you mean with New Millennium though, I don't like that song at all.
The lyrics kill New Millennium for me. Musically the song isn't horrible and has a catchy main riff, but the lyrical content and vocal phrasing are pretty bad. It is one of my bottom 10 or so DT songs.
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The lyrics kill New Millennium for me. Musically the song isn't horrible and has a catchy main riff, but the lyrical content and vocal phrasing are pretty bad. It is one of my bottom 10 or so DT songs.
The actual vocals are just not that good. I couldn't figure out why I didn't like New Millennium, and then LaBrie said it's not very fun to sing, and that's probably the main reason. But the intro keyboards are kinda bland, too.
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NM just kind of blows. With every other album, there's an opening track that makes me jump up and down, like "yaaaay hell yeah starting my lovely millionth full listen, I love you Dream Theater", while with NM and FII, I just sink into my chair. Or hit the floor with a loud thump when I remember "watching you run is making me lazy" will follow it. Most of the time I just skip these two. I wouldn't go as far as to say they completely ruin FII for me, but you do NEED a good opener.
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I like You Not Me, but I'll like any DT song that comes AFTER New Millennium. I only ever listen to it for completion's sake.
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I wish I weren't a completion addict whenever I play FII. It's bad enough I end SFAM with TSCO every time ;D
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I wish I weren't a completion addict whenever I play FII. It's bad enough I end SFAM with TSCO every time ;D
I don't get it... why would you end it on TSCO?
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I don't get it... why would you end it on TSCO?
Because I'm deathly afraid of Finally Free and can't listen to it to save my life.
Yeah, wuss :D
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Because I'm deathly afraid of Finally Free and can't listen to it to save my life.
Yeah, wuss :D
Haha, okay, but that's not exactly completionist, is it? It's more like, the opposite? Like, for you, that's where the story ends, so you exclude the last track for yourself.
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I actually don't have a problem with the synths for the most part. My problem with Awake is that most of the songs are just awkward as fuck to listen to. All the vocal melodies sound out of place
Yeah, I think the vocal melodies are a huge step down from the perfection that was I&W.
If I had a a problem with the keyboards on Awake, it would be this..On Awake, they seem to take a back seat. Kind of coloring in here and there. On I&W , the keyboards were far more active and involved. On Awake, they just seem so passive.
No surprise there, though - Kevin sounds like he didn't want to be there because, well - he didn't! :lol
The first three songs could gladly be chopped off
I've long felt this way about Awake. Sure, 6:00 has some fantastic drumming and the ending solo of Innocence Faded is one of my favorite bits of the CD, but I've always felt these three songs were a really weak start.
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I wish I weren't a completion addict whenever I play FII. It's bad enough I end SFAM with TSCO every time ;D
Be a full-on completion addict and listen to the two-disc blowout version (https://ytsejamrecords.com/ProductCart/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=26&idcategory=6) instead. Raise the Knife would've joined the ranks of the all-time great album openers. Should've done, really.
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Be a full-on completion addict and listen to the two-disc blowout version (https://ytsejamrecords.com/ProductCart/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=26&idcategory=6) instead. Raise the Knife would've joined the ranks of the all-time great album openers. Should've done, really.
I KNOW *emotional breakdown*. Whose idea was leaving that one out anyway??? Bad decision-making. I'm sure this was discussed many times before, but I just don't get it. Although, I'm thrilled it didn't go exactly the way they wanted it, because I prefer SFAM to the hypothetical Metropolis pt.2 song they would have ended up with.
Oh well, RTK kicks ass on Score.
Haha, okay, but that's not exactly completionist, is it? It's more like, the opposite? Like, for you, that's where the story ends, so you exclude the last track for yourself.
Yeah, it is the opposite, so the completionist in me feels guilty.
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I know no one cares, but while we're talking about FII:
Yesterday I ripped COTC and FII in .wav format, then burned my ultimate FII:
1. New Millennium
2. Raise the Knife
3. Peruvian Skies
4. Hollow Years
5. Hell's Kitchen
6. Lines in the Sand
7. Speak to Me
8. Trial of Tears
It's just glorious, and CD quality too! :D
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Swith NM with DLPM and add Anna Lee, and we're good. :tup
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Swith NM with DLPM and add Anna Lee, and we're good. :tup
Don't Look Past Me is a rejected IAW song :lol
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I like FII and think the album is pretty strong as an album. Not too many songs I like playing out of order.
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Swith NM with DLPM and add Anna Lee, and we're good. :tup
Don't Look Past Me is a rejected IAW song :lol
Yeah, but it's on Cleaning out the Closet, to which TOX had been referring.
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Swith NM with DLPM and add Anna Lee, and we're good. :tup
Don't Look Past Me is a rejected IAW song :lol
Yeah, but it's on Cleaning out the Closet, to which TOX had been referring.
Of course, but if I didn't misunderstand his purpose completely, he was going to recreate Falling Into Infinity using the best songs written for it, not all the song in COTC.
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Right, my bad. He did say that he wanted to create the ultimate FII and that he used COTC for that, not that he wanted to create a "Best of FII & COTC". :facepalm:
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I KNOW *emotional breakdown*. Whose idea was leaving that one out anyway??? Bad decision-making. I'm sure this was discussed many times before, but I just don't get it. Although, I'm thrilled it didn't go exactly the way they wanted it, because I prefer SFAM to the hypothetical Metropolis pt.2 song they would have ended up with.
From what I've read, they started working on that version of Metropolis Pt. 2, but then threw it by the wayside in order to work on the other songs for Falling Into Infinity, so I don't think that would've made it in the original version of the album anyway.
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The first three songs could gladly be chopped off
I've long felt this way about Awake. Sure, 6:00 has some fantastic drumming and the ending solo of Innocence Faded is one of my favorite bits of the CD, but I've always felt these three songs were a really weak start.
I beg to differ. There's a lot more to "6:00" than its (admittedly awesome) drum parts (a definite highlight of MP's tenure with the band). For one, JP's guitar tone and actual guitar parts are pretty funky and unique-sounding for DT. He never quite went back to the silky, almost Strat-like tone he used for the guitar parts on "6:00" (which, to me, is shame because it makes the guitar stand out a helluva lot better than his current, distortion-soaked tone... it just blended in better with the other instruments, particularly the keyboads). Also, the lyrics to "6:00" are pretty good and insightful (and document KM's psyche at the time pretty accurately).
"Caught in a Web" has always been a pennial favorite of mine. JB's vocals on it are beyond amazing. I always dug the grittier approach he took on "Awake" (it gave the vocals added character and-- for the lack of a better terms-- some balls) and I think it worked particularly well on this song (giving an extra dimension to the jaded lyrics). I also always have been enamoured with the chromatic section they stuck in the middle of the song. I think it gives the song a slight (yet adequate) progressive touch and the section itself sounds extremely cool.
I like "Innocence Faded" a whole lot too and never really understood why it got so much heat from most DT fans. Sure, it's not the most mind-blowing and original song you'll ever hear but it's pretty neat and I've always liked it. And that Dregs-influenced outro is simply outstanding. That's as anthemic as DT ever got (without sounding cheesy or forced in the slightest). I like the lyrics too.
NM just kind of blows. With every other album, there's an opening track that makes me jump up and down, like "yaaaay hell yeah starting my lovely millionth full listen, I love you Dream Theater", while with NM and FII, I just sink into my chair. Or hit the floor with a loud thump when I remember "watching you run is making me lazy" will follow it. Most of the time I just skip these two. I wouldn't go as far as to say they completely ruin FII for me, but you do NEED a good opener.
I disagree. This is DT's sole foray into the minimalist, locked-in, almost drone-like approach that's common fare for people like Trey Gunn (who excels at it). It's the kind of thing that sounds proggy as hell and (if done right) that can help you attain musical bliss (probably trance-induced... but what the heck). Also, "New Millennium" features one of the most focused and interesting instrumental section the band ever did (one that no one can accuse of being wank-driven). I do agree that the vocal melodies and the lyrics could be better though...
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From what I've read, they started working on that version of Metropolis Pt. 2, but then threw it by the wayside in order to work on the other songs for Falling Into Infinity, so I don't think that would've made it in the original version of the album anyway.
Really? I had no idea, thanks for that piece of info :)
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From what I've read, they started working on that version of Metropolis Pt. 2, but then threw it by the wayside in order to work on the other songs for Falling Into Infinity, so I don't think that would've made it in the original version of the album anyway.
Really? I had no idea, thanks for that piece of info :)
tada!
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From what I've read, they started working on that version of Metropolis Pt. 2, but then threw it by the wayside in order to work on the other songs for Falling Into Infinity, so I don't think that would've made it in the original version of the album anyway.
Really? I had no idea, thanks for that piece of info :)
*snip*
tada!
You should pull it down before the modding squad arrives :lol
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From what I've read, they started working on that version of Metropolis Pt. 2, but then threw it by the wayside in order to work on the other songs for Falling Into Infinity, so I don't think that would've made it in the original version of the album anyway.
Really? I had no idea, thanks for that piece of info :)
*snip*
tada!
You should pull it down before the modding squad arrives :lol
whoops! I thought I had seen some links before...or is it for bootlegs that aren't official releases?
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whoops! I thought I had seen some links before...or is it for bootlegs that aren't official releases?
I believe that there should not be links to any officially released material. Well, it's not that posting Met2 would have earned you a warning or a ban, but it's always safest to stick to the rules. And most of the time, there is always a way to bypass the ban for official material searching for similar unofficial performances on youtube. Not this time, though. :-\
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k. the mods are probably sick of me "forgetting" rules like that. I'll earn a boot in the ass (it's the American way) if I keep doing that.
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I don't know what that snipped link was, but I found out about it in the Liner Notes on "Making Of SFAM" bootleg.
We had written a 20-something minute version of the inevitable sequel to the "Images And Words" track back in 1996, but it was tossed aside by all of the other material we ended up writing for "Falling Into Infinity."
When the time came to start a new CD in 1999, we knew we had to revive and finally include Metropolis Pt. 2 this time around...
Once we determined it was time to finally tackle a concept album, the 2 ideas on the table became 1 and we decided to expand Metropolis Pt. 2 into a full length album!
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I love 6:00, Caught in a Web, Innocence Faded, and New Millennium. And I'm glad Raise the Knife isn't on FII, because although musically interesting at times, the lyrics bother me, especially after Portnoy's departure.
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Awake is almost perfect. It just has a slight case of SpaceDyeVestitis that it needs to be cured of.
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Awake is almost perfect. It just has a slight case of SpaceDyeVestitis that it needs to be cured of.
Fucking THIS, and that one has even grown on me somewhat.
I have no idea what some of you are talking about regarding the keys on this album.
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I have no idea what some of you are talking about regarding the keys on this album.
I think they're just bored, really :lol
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I don't know what that snipped link was, but I found out about it in the Liner Notes on "Making Of SFAM" bootleg.
We had written a 20-something minute version of the inevitable sequel to the "Images And Words" track back in 1996, but it was tossed aside by all of the other material we ended up writing for "Falling Into Infinity."
When the time came to start a new CD in 1999, we knew we had to revive and finally include Metropolis Pt. 2 this time around...
Once we determined it was time to finally tackle a concept album, the 2 ideas on the table became 1 and we decided to expand Metropolis Pt. 2 into a full length album!
It was "tossed aside" in the sense that several songs ended up being cut, but MP has said that, if it had been up to him FII would have been a double album of all of the songs written for the album, including M2.
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It was "tossed aside" in the sense that several songs ended up being cut, but MP has said that, if it had been up to him FII would have been a double album of all of the songs written for the album, including M2.
He said that he wanted M2 on FII?
It really doesn't make sense to me that they 'completed' the demos, wrote and recorded the vocals and everything, but the only thing of M2 at that existed at that time was a live rehearsal demo. I really don't think they intended on including it on the album. That's why it's labeled as a bonus track on the FII Demos.
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It was "tossed aside" in the sense that several songs ended up being cut, but MP has said that, if it had been up to him FII would have been a double album of all of the songs written for the album, including M2.
He said that he wanted M2 on FII?
It really doesn't make sense to me that they 'completed' the demos, wrote and recorded the vocals and everything, but the only thing of M2 at that existed at that time was a live rehearsal demo. I really don't think they intended on including it on the album. That's why it's labeled as a bonus track on the FII Demos.
They did intend to include it on FII but abandoned the idea halfway through the album's writing sessions. I remember reading about it on an interview JP gave to a guitar magazine sometime back in 1997. I think it was featured on the November 1997 issue of "Guitar World" (but don't quote me on that).
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They did intend to include it on FII but abandoned the idea halfway through the album's writing sessions. I remember reading about it on an interview JP gave to a guitar magazine sometime back in 1997. I think it was featured on the November 1997 issue of "Guitar World" (but don't quote me on that).
Right. So even if they had released FII as they envisioned it, with Cover my Eyes and all those songs, then Metropolis Pt. 2 still wouldn't have been on it.
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Nah. There's nothing wrong with it.
This. Awake is Dream Theater's best sounding album as a whole.
I wholeheartedly agree...
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It was "tossed aside" in the sense that several songs ended up being cut, but MP has said that, if it had been up to him FII would have been a double album of all of the songs written for the album, including M2.
He said that he wanted M2 on FII?
It really doesn't make sense to me that they 'completed' the demos, wrote and recorded the vocals and everything, but the only thing of M2 at that existed at that time was a live rehearsal demo. I really don't think they intended on including it on the album. That's why it's labeled as a bonus track on the FII Demos.
They didn't write and record them all at once. They kept writing and demo'ing songs over a long period of time waiting for the label to finally let them go into the studio to record an album. If the label had continued to drag their feet a little longer, M2 would have been completed.
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They didn't write and record them all at once. They kept writing and demo'ing songs over a long period of time waiting for the label to finally let them go into the studio to record an album. If the label had continued to drag their feet a little longer, M2 would have been completed.
I don't know. All signs still point to the fact that by the time they finished all the demos, they had no intention of putting M2 on the actual album. I mean, I could be wrong, but I haven't seen any evidence to suggest otherwise.
I mean, what you're telling me, did they actually SAY that in an interview? Or are you speculating?
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They didn't write and record them all at once. They kept writing and demo'ing songs over a long period of time waiting for the label to finally let them go into the studio to record an album. If the label had continued to drag their feet a little longer, M2 would have been completed.
I don't know. All signs still point to the fact that by the time they finished all the demos, they had no intention of putting M2 on the actual album. I mean, I could be wrong, but I haven't seen any evidence to suggest otherwise.
I mean, what you're telling me, did they actually SAY that in an interview? Or are you speculating?
It's from a post MP made on his forum. Unfortunately, his site is blocked by my work so I can't look it up right now. I'll try to dig it up later, although the forum search at mp.com sucks.
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It's from a post MP made on his forum. Unfortunately, his site is blocked by my work so I can't look it up right now. I'll try to dig it up later, although the forum search at mp.com sucks.
I see. Well, nevertheless, even if they WERE originally going to include M2 on FII, which does make sense since they started working on it. Considering that they never did finish that version, and they had 2 discs worth of Demos, I'm sure that even if the record company said, "Okay, we like all the songs you gave us on the demos, let's make it into the double album that you want it to be," they still would've went ahead with what they had and not included M2 on it.
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Awake is the best DT album in most ways. Keyboard is a weak spot though, I still don't get how Kevin Moore is all that.
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Whatever problems Awake has are more than made up for by JP's fucking monster guitar tone, MP's intro to 6:00, and the entirety of LSOAD and SDV. When it came out, it blew the balls off of everything else released that year (and for a few years after). JP was using 7 string before it became a "thing" with nu-metal. And they all dressed in black, which was pretty awesome for a prog-band at the time.