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General => General Discussion => Topic started by: Ħ on July 07, 2012, 09:34:35 PM
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We never grew up during a time of war (and I mean a real war). We grew up in a very different environment than those that grew up during WWII and Vietnam, when there was still a draft. There was a romanticism of being a "man" or a "woman". It seems to me that young men today are much softer and young women are more independent and expressive - sort of a merging of gender roles. I realize this is just the way it is, but it's kind of sad that those old-fashioned notions of "being a man" and stuff are dying, especially in the States. We never had to fend for ourselves or survival. Obviously war is not good but it's too bad anyway. These are just my thoughts this evening. What are your thoughts?
EDIT: Changed the thread title as it may have been offensive.
EDIT2: Changed again as I realized that I didn't make this thread about gender roles in the first place :facepalm:
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I'm staying the fuck out of this one.
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God I wish Jackie had internet. Ah screw it, I'm gonna text her about this thread.
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No!
Er, I mean, this thread's not about whether it should be this way or should be that way. It's just a nostalgic notion, that's all.
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First of all, I'm not sure if it's necessarily true that the younger generation has it off easier just because we're not living in times of war. What I hear -- and keep in mind that I'm only 19, so I'm not able to confirm this -- is that things have gotten less safe as far as our suburbs and cities go. Secondhand reports tell me that the American suburb is no longer a safe haven, and parents are generally more afraid to let their children go out by themselves. Chris Rock will back me up in the 20 seconds or so I've queued up here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3PJF0YE-x4&t=230 (NSFW obviously). An old person can confirm or deny this, but this is what I've heard.
HOWEVER. The death of gender roles is absolutely a good thing. Things are getting better in America when men and women aren't subjugated for not conforming to an imagined standard.
If you feel like you connect with the "strong man" gender role, great! It's good to know yourself, and many women like strong men. But we don't need 50's-style gender roles again. That's a step backward.
EDIT: By the way, H: I'm being kind. What you've written here is actually quite offensive and I hope you recognize why.
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While you bring up an interesting point, it does not top the list of things that are wrong with the younger generation.
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Not really nostalgia since you never experienced it, more like romanticizing a certain time in our past.
Anywho, gender roles in general are stupid to me so I have no desire to return to a time where men were more aggressive, dominant and controlling.
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I have absolutely no problem with any of this, and find the entire concept of being 'a real man' ridiculous.
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But we don't need 50's-style gender roles again. That's a step backward.
A step sideways, I'd say, at least for the purposes of the thread - which is not a P/R thread or any sort of comment on the way things should be. It's just interesting to reflect how things have changed.
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If equality is at all a concern of yours, then gender roles are a step backwards.
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But we don't need 50's-style gender roles again. That's a step backward.
A step sideways
Nope, definitely backward, subforums aside.
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If equality is at all a concern of yours, then gender roles are a step backwards.
Political subjugation of women aside, how?
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First of all, I'm not sure if it's necessarily true that the younger generation has it off easier just because we're not living in times of war. What I hear -- and keep in mind that I'm only 19, so I'm not able to confirm this -- is that things have gotten less safe as far as our suburbs and cities go. Secondhand reports tell me that the American suburb is no longer a safe haven, and parents are generally more afraid to let their children go out by themselves.
Again I'm in my 20s so not in a position to validate or refute this. But "having it easier" can be taken to mean a billion different things. Maybe I read it differently than some of you guys, but what H's post brought to mind for me was more the character weaknesses I see in my own generation (men and women) than anything specifically to do with gender roles. And though it may be "romanticizing" to think that they were any different in generations past, I think it's absolutely a valid concern regardless.
Not really nostalgia since you never experienced it, more like romanticizing a certain time in our past.
Exactly.
Also, why are people acting like this is just such an appalling thing to say. He was just thinking out loud through DTF, anybody here knows H is not a bigot. I'm so tired of hearing about this or that being "offensive," ironic that it actually lends credence to some of the OP.
-J
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Also, why are people acting like this is just such an appalling thing to say. He was just thinking out loud through DTF, anybody here knows H is not a bigot. I'm so tired of hearing about this or that being "offensive," ironic that it actually lends credence to some of the OP.
I'm currently PM'ing H about this very issue, but I'll also summarize it for the kind people here. Here's a quotation, with the OP's biggest problem bolded:
There was a romanticism of being a "man" or a "woman". It seems to me that young men today are much softer and young women are more independent and expressive - sort of a merging of gender roles.
By romanticizing the 50's, he inadvertently pined for the days when women were less independent and expressive. Knowing H, he probably didn't mean to suggest he wanted all women to be homemakers; however, at the end of the day, you can't endorse gender roles without being misogynistic.
Gender roles are also harmful to men, of course, but how the OP dealt with women is far and away the most offensive thing here.
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I watch My Little Pony: Friendship Is Magic. Pinkie Pie is my favorite pony.
That is my contribution to this thread.
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Not really nostalgia since you never experienced it, more like romanticizing a certain time in our past.
That's a better way of putting it.
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Hayden, if there is anyone that can lead our great nation into manhood, it would be you.
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Just want to reiterate that this thread is not about gender roles - my mention of them in my OP is really nothing more than an aside. This thread is about our generation not having the motivation to "be a man" - i.e. be disciplined, hardened through experience, tough, have a do-it-yourself mentality. Whether you are actually male or female is beside the point. Whether you agree or disagree with the phrase "be a man" is beside the point; it's the values that the phrase represent that matter.
I think it's a shame that we are so spoiled to the point where we can't truly fight for ourselves. I appreciate America and it's provisions, but it's to the point where we've collectively weakened as a society.
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That's some splendid backtracking there Brother H. I expect that by the next time I post in this thread, it will have yet another title.
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*tips hat*
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Genders roles becoming less defined and more equal is probably one of the ONLY things good about this generation.
Also, there's way more War now than ever before. But no-one wants to go, or pay for it, even when they support it. In my opinion that completely lack of self-sacrifice and responsibility toward the world (and anything other than oneself) is the biggest problem with this generation.
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I agree with you about this generation being too soft, H. I know people who can't handle being made fun of one bit, be it over the internet or real life.
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I agree with you about this generation being too soft, H. I know people who can't handle being made fun of one bit, be it over the internet or real life.
I agree. People can say some nasty things about people (read: bitches and tricks). you just gotta ignore the haters and be a name maker!!
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I agree with you about this generation being too soft, H. I know people who can't handle being made fun of one bit, be it over the internet or real life.
I agree. People can say some nasty things about people (read: bitches and tricks). you just gotta ignore the haters and be a name maker!!
Nice first post. Hit the nail on the head there. And welcome!
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I watch My Little Pony: Friendship Is Magic. Pinkie Pie is my favorite pony.
That is my contribution to this thread.
On this, you and I shall always be on common ground, my friend. :tup
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People from this generation obsess over themselves in an almost narcissistic way. People can't think from the point of view of others. You can't ask someone to put themselves in someone else's shoes. Everyone's just thinking about how they, themselves, can get ahead, and the other guy isn't anyone's problem. It kinda disgusts me, so I don't like thinking about it much and probably don't want to even get in a discussion about it.
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People from this generation obsess over themselves in an almost narcissistic way. People can't think from the point of view of others. You can't ask someone to put themselves in someone else's shoes. Everyone's just thinking about how they, themselves, can get ahead, and the other guy isn't anyone's problem. It kinda disgusts me, so I don't like thinking about it much and probably don't want to even get in a discussion about it.
Welcome to the history of humanity.
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I agree with Adami on this one.
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People from this generation obsess over themselves in an almost narcissistic way. People can't think from the point of view of others. You can't ask someone to put themselves in someone else's shoes. Everyone's just thinking about how they, themselves, can get ahead, and the other guy isn't anyone's problem. It kinda disgusts me, so I don't like thinking about it much and probably don't want to even get in a discussion about it.
Welcome to the history of humanity.
Yeah but I wouldn't call that "soft". I would call that general callousness towards others that, with this generation, is continuing alongside a MUCH more individual-based way of looking at the world. So not really a good combo at all. But "soft"? Nah. We could use more of "going soft" maybe.
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I didn't say soft. You said this generation obsesses over themselves in an almost narcissistic way and can't think from the point of view of others.
To that, I responded "Welcome to the history of humanity".
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I didn't say soft. You said this generation obsesses over themselves in an almost narcissistic way and can't think from the point of view of others.
To that, I responded "Welcome to the history of humanity".
Ah, the thread title says "soft" in it, implying that men are getting to soft or something. I was responding to that.
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I didn't say soft. You said this generation obsesses over themselves in an almost narcissistic way and can't think from the point of view of others.
To that, I responded "Welcome to the history of humanity".
Ah, the thread title says "soft" in it, implying that men are getting to soft or something. I was responding to that.
....but I was responding to you.
You know what this means? It means we have to hug. That's how men of our generation deal with problems, we hug.
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People from this generation obsess over themselves in an almost narcissistic way. People can't think from the point of view of others. You can't ask someone to put themselves in someone else's shoes. Everyone's just thinking about how they, themselves, can get ahead, and the other guy isn't anyone's problem. It kinda disgusts me, so I don't like thinking about it much and probably don't want to even get in a discussion about it.
Because not being soft always leads to narcissism. I follow perfectly.
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I think you're mistaking "being soft" with being "completely self-absorbed and not willing to make a sacrifice for others". I mean, case and point, this thread.
You know what man? There's like 3 wars going on right now that the United States is involved with. If you believe "masculine values" and "warfare" are so important to "being a real man" or something you could join-up. Plenty of people have and do for less grandiose reasons than the ones your expressing. Your profile tells me that you are 20 years old. That is pretty much the perfect age for you to "man-up" and go put your life on the line for something you believe in.
But therein lies the problem. You won't go, and neither would anyone who doesn't have to. Our society isn't soft, it's just full of individuals that don't give a damn about one another. Want a war? OK. Send someone else to go, and put it on the national credit card. It's all about getting someone else to do something for you so you don't have to-- NOT about doing something you believe in because you think it's the right thing for you to do. That has nothing to do with men going "soft" and has everything to do with people becoming absorbed in themselves and placing their own good above the good of others.
There is absolutely no conception of "shared-sacrifice" in the United States right now. A few years ago (and it's coming back now) President Obama learned you can't even get the American people to set up a health program if you tell them they'll have to pay anything for it. People in the United States just don't believe in ANYTHING that they'd be willing to put themselves and their lives on the line for. I don't see that as being soft. I see that as being bankrupt morally and governed solely by self-interest and fixated on the good of oneself above all.
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I didn't say soft. You said this generation obsesses over themselves in an almost narcissistic way and can't think from the point of view of others.
To that, I responded "Welcome to the history of humanity".
Ah, the thread title says "soft" in it, implying that men are getting to soft or something. I was responding to that.
....but I was responding to you.
You know what this means? It means we have to hug. That's how men of our generation deal with problems, we hug.
omg I don't feel soft at all anymore.... :blush
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Dude, there's a vast difference between the war if Afghanistan (and until recently Iraq) and WWII.
WWII was something people believed in fighting for. People don't agree with the principles of these wars, it has nothing to do with not giving a damn about one another. Not that I don't agree that people are selfish pricks.
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That's kinda what I'm getting at though. People went to World War II because they gave a damn. No one gave a damn about Vietnam, but they were still forced to go because I guess that mentality of shared sacrifice and this idea that waging war should be something all of society engages is was still lingering, plus the draft. Today's wars don't have any of that. We just send the same kids to fight over and over. It's not about sacrifice, or society, and we remove all personal sacrifice from the equation. I don't think that's because we've gone soft as a nation, but more because we've stopped giving a damn
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That's kinda what I'm getting at though. People went to World War II because they gave a damn. No one gave a damn about Vietnam, but they were still forced to go because I guess that mentality of shared sacrifice and this idea that waging war should be something all of society engages is was still lingering, plus the draft. Today's wars don't have any of that. We just send the same kids to fight over and over. It's not about sacrifice, or society, and we remove all personal sacrifice from the equation. I don't think that's because we've gone soft as a nation, but more because we've stopped giving a damn
It's because of the war, not the people. Trust me. Not every war is just and worth fighting for.
Anywho, I was thinking about the problem you have Brother H of being soft and I here's your solution
(https://www.meds4all.com/images/product/viagra-l.jpg)
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People in the United States just don't believe in ANYTHING that they'd be willing to put themselves and their lives on the line for.
It's one thing to say that people are lazy for refusing to stand up for things they believe in. But you seem to be saying that people are selfish for refusing to stand up for things they don't believe in. Why should someone put themself and their life on the line for Obamacare if they think it is a bad idea? People should volunteer to fight in wars for causes they don't support?
Anyway, gender role discussion aside, I think the point of the thread is that people just aren't as tough as they used to be. Which is true, but I don't think you can blame that on society. People can still choose to be tough if they want to. If you want to enroll in bootcamp or take karate lessons and become a bona fide badass, no one's stopping you. It's just that nowadays no one's forcing you, either. I have trouble seeing that as a bad thing.
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It's one thing to say that people are lazy for refusing to stand up for things they believe in. But you seem to be saying that people are selfish for refusing to stand up for things they don't believe in. Why should someone put themself and their life on the line for Obamacare if they think it is a bad idea? People should volunteer to fight in wars for causes they don't support?
No, I'm saying people shouldn't elect in someone who promises to do that, and then throw him under the bus when they realize "Oh, shit, you mean we have to pay for this?" But that's the society we live in.
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It's one thing to say that people are lazy for refusing to stand up for things they believe in. But you seem to be saying that people are selfish for refusing to stand up for things they don't believe in. Why should someone put themself and their life on the line for Obamacare if they think it is a bad idea? People should volunteer to fight in wars for causes they don't support?
No, I'm saying people shouldn't elect in someone who promises to do that, and then throw him under the bus when they realize "Oh, shit, you mean we have to pay for this?" But that's the society we live in.
Good lord dude, start a thread in PR. What you're posting about (I assume) has nothing to do with Brother H's thread about erectile dysfunction.
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lol
The OP seems to be saying that men aren't "manning up" like they used to. I agree with that, I just don't see it as "going soft". It's the opposite really. It's this f-all, "I'm in it for me!" kinda attitude where doing good for others is only done when convenient. I don't want to touch PR!
But if we turn this into a discussion on erectile dysfunctions that's cool too :P
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I'm more of a man than all of you.
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:metal
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I'm more of a man than all of you.
Elves =/= Humans
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lol
The OP seems to be saying that men aren't "manning up" like they used to. I agree with that, I just don't see it as "going soft". It's the opposite really. It's this f-all, "I'm in it for me!" kinda attitude where doing good for others is only done when convenient. I don't want to touch PR!
But if we turn this into a discussion on erectile dysfunctions that's cool too :P
I agree with you in the sense that it the "wassinit for me?" attitude isn't always the best one to be bringing to the table. I do not think it's been much more prevalent now than it's ever been.
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I think, and I'm aware I'm pushing this thread further into P&R here, but to defend H a little bit, I think there is a very big difference between a gender role and a gender identity.
The former is decided for you, and it's a prejudice. It closes doors, it clouds judgment, and it can in the worst scenario map out your life before you're old enough to read this sentence - although in fairness you do need to be quite old to read it cos it's got a swear word in (fucking) brackets. There's still more than enough inequality here in the first world, but if life's a lottery then in some corners of the planet being born a woman is a guaranteed losing ticket. The latter, though, the identity bit, I quite like. It's a similar beast, inasmuch as people can and will still use them to form snap decisions about you right off the bat, but a person or demographic owns an identity. It puts them in the driver's seat. There's more freedom to flount the stereotype.
I live in a little village in the arse end of nowhere. It's full of pensioners and young families, and walking to the polling station to vote anything other than conservative is frankly a waste of good shoe rubber. My votes never leave the town hall. And you're probably already building up a little picture in your head of the kind of person who lives here.
Because identities help us do that. If I described someone as a citizen of my village, someone fairly local will already be building up a mental picture. Old, married, conservative, sweet-tempered, bit too much money - they've got the idea! I'm a grand total of exactly none of those, but I still like the identity. If people were to assume I was in the Cameron Youth, if they used my heritage as a stick to beat me with, then yes, I'd be very annoyed. I am not defending prejudice at all, and the second an identity closes a door to someone, the second it's used to deny someone's access to a new stage of life, I'm in a position of staunch disgust. But I'd rather the village kept its connotation for better or for worse than lost its identity.
That's kind of what I love about words. Take the word "suited." Say someone's a "suited man" and connotations are already growing like tendrils out of the sides. He's wealthy, slick, clean, fashionable, refined pallet - all you need is the two words and you've already got a vague sense of who he is, what he's about. You could be wrong, but the ability to sketch him in so quickly is absolutely superb. "Foul-mouthed" is a good one. As soon as I say "foul-mouthed," you've got a vague image of the person. Or "Scientologist." All rich with connotations.
I'm all for gender equality. In fact, I'm constantly disgusted by how much further we've still got to go. Why the fuck, in 2012, are politicians still middle class white men? Why are there still a thousand comments on the end of every comedienne's YouTube video saying "women arent funny, get back in the kitchen?" It's bollocks, it's institutionalised sexism, and it needs to be fucking stopped. But at the same time, I love the richness that connotation adds to our language. I wouldn't say I want girls to be girls and boys to be boys - I want people to be the people they want to be and fuck the guiderails - but I like that the two genders have very individual identities, different codes and different characters. I'm firmly against the homogenisation of gender - and while, yes, I did gasp a little at the OP, it'd be insincere of me to claim I'm not broadly in favour of archetypes. The only bit I disapprove of is when people use them as sticks to bludgeon each other with. So while I don't want girls to feel they have to be girls and boys to feel they have to be boys - everyone should have the freedom to defy every single prejudice thrown at them - I like the idea of each gender retaining some sense of girlishness and boyishness. Our own cultures and sets of values, with plenty of crossover, each on each gender's own terms.
Signed,
A man who hates sports, moisturises, would be rubbish in a war, and is frankly too klutzy for any form of manual labour.
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Man here.
I think we've become more self absorbed as a society. Not soft. Every kid needs to have their own room, internet on their phone and now have a sense of entitlement. Old fogey rant out.
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I think Rob got it pretty much spot on there. It's pretty much exactly the same where I live.
Signed: a man who doesn't moisturize, but does have long hair, sometimes in pigtails.
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Using our aggression positively is a part of being an adult.
Re. dominance - the Bible for one is pretty clear that men are to be have the overall leadership in a relationship and arguably in spiritual teaching.
The Tao te ching talks about *everybody* adopting feminine energy (masculine and feminine energy are part of both men and women according to the I-Ching which came before the Tao) and not being controlling. I don't see any incompatibility at all with Jesus' teaching in this.
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I have absolutely no problem with any of this, and find the entire concept of being 'a real man' ridiculous.
I'll just leave it at this...
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AndyDT, ladies and gentlemen.
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I have absolutely no problem with any of this, and find the entire concept of being 'a real man' ridiculous.
I'll just leave it at this...
Summed me up as well.
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It closes doors, it clouds judgment, and it can in the worst scenario map out your life before you're old enough to read this sentence - although in fairness you do need to be quite old to read it cos it's got a swear word in (fucking) brackets.
This has got to be one of the better sentences I have ever read.
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Still staying the fuck out of this one.
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You know that's just teasing us.
I spend a lot of time on Tumblr, where there is a huge movement for not only gender equality but acceptance of non-traditional genders. What about people who are gender fluid and don't necessarily identify with one gender? Or transgenders? Everything is becoming less black and white every day.
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Still staying the fuck out of this one.
Actually, one could make the argument that you are not staying out of this one, and have in fact come in several times.
:neverusethis:
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I have absolutely no problem with any of this, and find the entire concept of being 'a real man' ridiculous.
I find that most of the men who always talk about being a real man are dbags who frequent strip bars, get in bar fights, and are the guys who get pissed when someone accidently bumps into them in a crowded room.
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I have absolutely no problem with any of this, and find the entire concept of being 'a real man' ridiculous.
I'll just leave it at this...
Summed me up as well.
Not me. Time for me to 'splain.
My grandfather was a real man. He could build stuff, destroy stuff, cut down trees, shoot guns, play sports, and then some. He lived through the dust bowl, the depression, worked in the CCC, and served in the Air Force during WWII. He liked his coffee blacker than black, wasn't afraid of anything, and could handle any amount of pain.
He also had a heart of gold. Never has this world seen a kinder and gentler soul. His home was a safe haven for people seeking refuge. He was selfless, and would literally give someone the shirt off his back. He treated everyone with respect and he put his family first. No one could teach me how to care for people better than he could.
I think when people talk about the notion of a "real man," they forget the contents of my second paragraph are as important to that image as the contents of the first. The strongest muscle in a real man is his heart.
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My point is that that stuff isn't specific to being a 'real man'. It's just called being a good person.
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My point is that that stuff isn't specific to being a 'real man'. It's just called being a good person.
At this point, it's just semantics. If we had a room full of good people, half men and half women, then by my definition, half would be "real men." I guess the other half would be "real women."
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My point is that that stuff isn't specific to being a 'real man'. It's just called being a good person.
At this point, it's just semantics. If we had a room full of good people, half men and half women, then by my definition, half would be "real men." I guess the other half would be "real women."
What if we had a room full of people exactly fitting your description of your grandfather, except half of them were women? Should we then come up with a term that accurately describes them all rather than separating them by gender?
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My point is that that stuff isn't specific to being a 'real man'. It's just called being a good person.
At this point, it's just semantics. If we had a room full of good people, half men and half women, then by my definition, half would be "real men." I guess the other half would be "real women."
What if we had a room full of people exactly fitting your description of your grandfather, except half of them were women? Should we then come up with a term that accurately describes them all rather than separating them by gender?
The term for that is 'badass.' :)
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I watch My Little Pony: Friendship Is Magic. Pinkie Pie is my favorite pony.
That is my contribution to this thread.
On this, you and I shall always be on common ground, my friend. :tup
(https://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120315011056/theamazingworldofgumball/images/8/89/Brohoof.jpg)
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I'm just here to give props to rob for such an excellent post. Cheers, mate. :clap:
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Nice post, Rob! I agree with that completely.
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That's what I love about robwebster. Two people can completely disagree with each other but still agree with what robwebster has to say.
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Well, the topic started as something that sounded borderline masochistic, and then softened, and then became something else, and now we're all just high-fiving each other over the notion the gender norms shouldn't be oppressive, but most of us still prefer girls act a little girly and boys a little manly.
I'm not sure how we got here, and I feel blown-off and tricked into wasting my time by the OP, but I'm in general agreement with everyone now it seems so w/e.
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That's just the way of our village, Mr.-second-best-song-on-Yes's-best-album. Even the least happening of OPs can still lead to good times and fine wine for all. This isn't some random-ass music community; only the liking (presently or in the past) of a semi-popular progressive metal band could have really brought such a magical group of weirdasses. (I suppose it could have happened on a Bacon or 9gag pic fanforum, but let's get real now; if there was a joint forum for those subjects, it'd probably compromise >69% of the Internet and their illiterate pets.)
That said, it's cool to folks to be however they're feeling. If some dudes and gals are feeling that they're the Ariana Schwarzenegger and Arnold Grande types, it's damn fine that they can do that. It's just as fine for others to be completely androgynous. I bet there are some odd folks who are somewhere in-between those extremes. As long as everyone's being what they want and no one's getting hurt (without consent and proper safety precautions), we're all cool.
Even H, or Japanese gatelike-structure, or whatever his stagename is. He gave us this thread. That's not too bad for a 20-something who can't get his crank a-yankin'.
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I'm not sure how we got here, and I feel blown-off and tricked into wasting my time by the OP
I really think you two were just using the word 'soft' differently. It seems to me that you were taking it to mean caring and worrying about others, as in the context of 'soft and sensitive.' Whereas I think H was using it as the opposite of tough, as in the context of 'soft and weak.' Maybe I'm wrong.
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Men seem "softer" because a lot of them don't have dads. Men either get toughened up by not having one and learning to be a man, or they collapse under the pressure.
Also, the most important thing about a man is his character. Regardless of what he enjoys for his entertainment or whatever. If a man has character, he is not soft at all.
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Well, the topic started as something that sounded borderline masochistic, and then softened, and then became something else, and now we're all just high-fiving each other over the notion the gender norms shouldn't be oppressive, but most of us still prefer girls act a little girly and boys a little manly.
I'm not sure how we got here, and I feel blown-off and tricked into wasting my time by the OP, but I'm in general agreement with everyone now it seems so w/e.
As Jaffa said, I meant we are "soft" as in we are "weak, undisciplined, lacking courage, etc." as compared to previous generations.
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Ok, I'm stepping the fuck into this one now. First,great post cup,you really seem to be coming into your own style here lately,and I like it.
One thing that hasn't been mentioned is the concept of play that has been ravaged by the onset of electronics and computers. I hate to be that fogey, but I think its important. I grew up with pick up ball games, tag in the creek, makeshift wars and battles, spy missions to save the world in my backyard, uniting with my buds against the gang of kids from the "other" street in epic bicycle and footchases,some ending up in half assed fistfights that only eight year olds can have. These things serve not only to get us out of mom's hair, but they are vital developmental tools in growing up. They teach comtadery,unity,respect,and honor in a safe,real life setting. They are some of the most vital aspects of maturing,even more so I believe than school.
I pay attention these days,and at least in my area,this concept of play is slowly becoming a lost art as kids hang inside more and more playing video games and the like. They are not getting that real life experience I referred to,and as they mature,the idea of working hard for rewards is lost,or severely retarded. This results in young adults who seem a touch helpless in the face of real adversity.,of course they are,they never learner how to deal with it in that safe real life setting of playing hide and seek at dusk.
That's just an observation of mine,take it or leave it as you wish. /fogey ramblings
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Whoa, nice post loney, that's exactly along the lines of what I was thinking too.
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I somewhat agree with you Lonestar even though I am a part of the inside generation. Sure, I played outside, but I wasn't ever allowed to go out exploring the neighborhood in my parents' fears that I'd be stolen or something. Other than playing in my yard, I spent a lot of time inside watching TV and playing video games. Somehow my parents still raised me to be a confident person that can handle himself in the real world. I'm not going to lie, I'm not physically strong or tough by any means, I'm kind of a twig, but I'd like to believe that I don't act like a wimp or someone who refuses to do some manual labor. I try to be a gentleman and an all around good person in general. I don't know what they did, but I'm so thankful for how my parent's raised me.
I've also seen people in the same situation as me who have turned out to be very reserved and quiet. I know some people who were homeschooled, and I can't help but think they missed out on a lot of life experienced because of it. For them, being around many people for more than a few hours can be exausting for them. That's the kind of things that many people can view as being weak.
I realize that my post didn't really focus on gender roles, but I was just trying to show how even though having kids spend less time out in the world learning can make it more difficult for them to become stronger individuals, I think that even more responsibility lies in the parents and how they raise their kids.
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I'd imagine that, in many cities, there isn't much room for kids to go outside and play even if they wanted to. All kids can really do around here is dick around in the street. It was like this for me growing up as well; my "yard" was a stretch of concrete between our back door and our parking spot. If people want future generations to get outside and learn honor and respect by playing cops and robbers or whatever then they haven't made it too easy for them.
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starman, I can really see what you're talking about. (Or I'm just pretty well-convinced I can) I, myself, didn't grow up with any of that. (Yeah, this is a bit of a rant/brief autobiographical tangent. There's also a tl/dr version below.) Well, aside from tag, but it was usually dummied so that no one could go beyond the boundaries coul-de-sac, which made for a damn tame game of hide-and-seek-tag. My family, they were pretty damn 21st century, the way they brought me up. As in I wasn't really allowed to visit other guy's houses until I started driving recently. Usually, to keep me from, I dunno, actually wandering around and facing such dangers as dirt clods or knuckles, they would put me in front of some sort of screen, assume whatever I'm up to wasn't violent or sexy, and call it a day.
I will give them swank parenting cred for making it clear that education's high up there on the tower of things to give a damn about, but I didn't necessarily learn too many values from them. To be frank, a lot of what I learned (or thought I learned) about actual people and how to interact with them when I was a pup was from reading random 80s nostalgia blogs, Webcomics, and forums about Star Wars. It would be near-redundant to add that I didn't come well-prepared to go face-to-face with other kids at school. I basically had no common interests or experiences to share and my attempts at verbal communication with them were essentially random-access-humour, rants about movies they'd never heard of, or most appealing of all, sketchy-ass, improvised, Star Wars fan-fiction. (Thinking back, I can't believe that my peers didn't go much further than not talking to me and occasionally calling me a 'gay dork'. I remember myself-from-then pretty clearly, and man would I not want to hang with that dude for more than a few minutes.)
The sheltering, unchallenged way I got brought up really put a damper on my social-skills and sense of reality for a good 12 years or so. Even nowadays, though I'd (like to) say I'm a pretty normal, down-to-earth cat, I still come across moments where I find myself well out of Earth's atmosphere. I'd honestly say that even in the last year, I've had to learn myself a fair share of 'real person knowledge', sometimes even on the forum, odd enough. I still have some ways to go, in terms of being a more independent person. I'm even getting threatened with not getting to live at college next year, unless I start acting more adult-like this final year of high school. Overall, I'm just glad to be blessed with a malleable mind that can be melded into a more effective one; where'd we people be if we didn't have one? (I hope I didn't come across as someone complaining about being called a dork at school or anything; this thread and what's it about really got me in a reflective mood.)
tl;dr- My family forego-ed the old-school to raise me in a sheltered fashion. It meant I didn't learn good communication/interaction skills until much later, and ended up an Awkward Andy. The old school way has some damn fine points and lots of them, as lonestar eloquently ranted.
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We're soft because we don't have to fight wooly fucking mammoths. Or Namekians. Or Darth Vader. Or Bane. I wanna see TDKR. Kill this thread. Kill the dough. Cowboy Bebop.
Peach cobbler.
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I saw something the other day that was really weird to me. I was in the Apple Store and they had a section for kids that had iPads with games loaded on. There were parents who had brought their babies there to play on the iPads. I overheard them talking, and one of them said that she preferred bringing her child to the Apple Store over the park because the park was too hot.
I don't know if this happens a lot. I don't know what the consequences are going to be for those children. But damn, did it freak me out.