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General => Archive => Political and Religious => Topic started by: Odysseus on June 14, 2012, 03:55:54 PM
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I'm not because I'm not aware of any mechanism whereby I can suffer after the event where my body finally keels over and gives up, taking my mind with it.
I do have some concerns about the period just before it though.... I don't really want to be hanging on playing extra time any more than is necessary. In fact, I'd be up for voluntary euthanasia if it became more freely available. The prospect of festering for years in a hospital bed having my diaper changed by some poor girl while I dribble into my spoon-fed porridge doesn't fill me with eager anticipation.....
So.. uh... yeah. Death? Scared? Hmm?... :xbones
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Afraid of death? Nope.
Afraid of suffering in agonizing physical pain for a prolonged period of time prior to finally dying? Yeah, kinda.
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Definitely.
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No. But I'm not very excited about it, either.
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No. But I'm not very excited about it, either.
This.
But I am afraid of tremendous pain, that could be a precursor to dying. I mean, long excruciating pain. Having a parasite kill me from the inside is actually one of my worst fears, because of the pain that will go along with it. A quick affair I wouldn't be afraid of, torture though....
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Have to say no, I'm not.
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No. But I'm not very excited about it, either.
This. There's no reason to be afraid of death, really.
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No. I'm afraid of nothing.
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No. I'm afraid of nothing.
The nothingness of death?
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No. I'm afraid of nothing.
The nothingness of death?
The way I look at it, death is basically sleep, except without the inconvenient and obtrusive dreams. And I'm not afraid of sleep. It's basically my favorite thing in the world. I'd sign up for sleeping forever. That sounds RAD.
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No. I'm afraid of nothing.
The nothingness of death?
The way I look at it, death is basically sleep, except without the inconvenient and obtrusive dreams. And I'm not afraid of sleep. It's basically my favorite thing in the world. I'd sign up for sleeping forever. That sounds RAD.
It is like sleep.................................sleeping with the fishes.
See?
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I like sleep and I like fish.
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Who is this "you"?
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No. But I like living.
-J
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I'm terrified of my own mortality. Probably because of how big an unknown the actual loss of conscious being is.
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None of the atheists or agnostics are afraid of death, but the Christian who posted is. I find that interesting.
I'm not afraid of death.
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I'm terrified of my own mortality. Probably because of how big an unknown the actual loss of conscious being is.
This. I try to put it out of mind, but it's by far my greatest fear.
Well, aside from drum solos at live concerts.
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None of the atheists or agnostics are afraid of death, but the Christian who posted is. I find that interesting.
I'm not afraid of death.
Add another agnostic to the fray who's not afraid of death. If anything I find death a good reminder to both enjoy and do something worthwhile with my life.
That said, I *used* to be somewhat afraid of death, when I was younger, i.e. younger than 16 or so. To play into your theory, that was the time I was still Christian.
rumborak
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Whose death? My own? No. Someones that I love? Yes.
For me, the fear of death isn't the actual dying. It is the people left behind who have to deal with it. I don't really care if I die, but I care that my parents would have to deal with the consequences of that.
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None of the atheists or agnostics are afraid of death, but the Christian who posted is. I find that interesting.
I'm not afraid of death.
Add another agnostic to the fray who's not afraid of death. If anything I find death a good reminder to both enjoy and do something worthwhile with my life.
That said, I *used* to be somewhat afraid of death, when I was younger, i.e. younger than 16 or so. To play into your theory, that was the time I was still Christian.
rumborak
Yeah, same here. I didn't become comfortable with death until I became comfortable with no God.
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The thought of my wife or children suffering and dying terrifies me. I would give my life and suffer in exchange in a heart beat. I am not scared of death or suffering for myself....but would like to avoid it for as long as possible. I am, however, worried about the effects my death will have on my family.
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no doubt the mode of death isn't all that exciting, but looking forward to death.
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Add another agnostic to the fray who's not afraid of death. If anything I find death a good reminder to both enjoy and do something worthwhile with my life.
That is a great point. The idea of this being a one-way trip very often reminds me to get off my ass and make the most of it. I'll freely admit that sometimes I fail on that point, but hey, you know what I mean... ;D
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No.
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None of the atheists or agnostics are afraid of death, but the Christian who posted is. I find that interesting.
I'm not afraid of death.
Add another agnostic to the fray who's not afraid of death. If anything I find death a good reminder to both enjoy and do something worthwhile with my life.
That said, I *used* to be somewhat afraid of death, when I was younger, i.e. younger than 16 or so. To play into your theory, that was the time I was still Christian.
rumborak
Yeah, same here. I didn't become comfortable with death until I became comfortable with no God.
Eh, I'm sorta counter to that. Used to be terrified of death, at a point when I was sure there was no God. The extent to which I'm okay with it now isn't so much anything to do with God, but more just existential boredom, and perhaps a few hallucinogens.
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When I was a kid, it was hard to come to terms with it.
But now as an adult, I have no fear of it. To me, Immortality would be much more terrifying than death.
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None of the atheists or agnostics are afraid of death, but the Christian who posted is. I find that interesting.
I'm not afraid of death.
It's an interesting pattern. I've got two theories: A) the religious are afraid they selected the wrong religion or weren't good enough to enter heaven or B) the religious aren't really all that excited by the prospect of immortality.
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I'm not afraid of death, just the suffering and pain that is often associated with it.
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I'll admit that I'm kind of afraid of it, but that's probably just me being a Nancy. The agnostic in me acknowledges the possibility of some boring afterlife (e.g. heaven) instead of a peaceful, dreamless sleep which sounds much more preferable to me.
Which is why this
None of the atheists or agnostics are afraid of death, but the Christian who posted is. I find that interesting.
makes a lot of sense to me. I'd be frightened of the possibility of living forever. Unless it was as some sort of space-ghost that could travel the universe. That I could deal with.
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Freaking forum ate my post. Well, time for a shorter version of it, I guess.
I used to claim I wasn't afraid, but I am. I really am. Just the very prospect of absolutely no consciousness, being nothing scares me. All it took was a near death experience to make me realize that. Sometimes the thought of death as sleep helps, but not all the time. I just hope my death is either quick and painless, happens in my sleep, or above all else, is not ironic. :lol
Don't really believe in an afterlife, but some days I wish there is. There are so many people I'd like to see again...
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I do not fear death, in view of the fact that I had been dead for billions and billions of years before I was born, and had not suffered the slightest inconvenience from it.
Mark Twain
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None of the atheists or agnostics are afraid of death, but the Christian who posted is. I find that interesting.
I'm not afraid of death.
It's an interesting pattern. I've got two theories: A) the religious are afraid they selected the wrong religion or weren't good enough to enter heaven or B) the religious aren't really all that excited by the prospect of immortality.
My theory would rather be that people who are afraid of an unknown like death are also likely to turn to a framework that promises them protection from that unknown.
rumborak
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Whose death? My own? No. Someones that I love? Yes.
For me, the fear of death isn't the actual dying. It is the people left behind who have to deal with it. I don't really care if I die, but I care that my parents would have to deal with the consequences of that.
This, every single word of this.
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None of the atheists or agnostics are afraid of death, but the Christian who posted is. I find that interesting.
I'm not afraid of death.
It's an interesting pattern. I've got two theories: A) the religious are afraid they selected the wrong religion or weren't good enough to enter heaven or B) the religious aren't really all that excited by the prospect of immortality.
My theory would rather be that people who are afraid of an unknown like death are also likely to turn to a framework that promises them protection from that unknown.
rumborak
Regarding my view of life/death/afterlife, these theories do not accurately describe my feelings concerning them. This life, like many of you have said, is too important to be wasted. I'm not wasting my earthly life because I'm afraid of the unknown or because I'm afraid that if I do waste it I'll face some kind of cosmic punishment. There's just something "other" that I'm living for. The afterlife for me then, is not a "carrot on a string" but just a part of the big picture of following Jesus.
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No. I'm afraid of nothing.
The nothingness of death?
Yes.
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None of the atheists or agnostics are afraid of death, but the Christian who posted is. I find that interesting.
I'm not afraid of death.
It's an interesting pattern. I've got two theories: A) the religious are afraid they selected the wrong religion or weren't good enough to enter heaven or B) the religious aren't really all that excited by the prospect of immortality.
My theory would rather be that people who are afraid of an unknown like death are also likely to turn to a framework that promises them protection from that unknown.
rumborak
It is true that a fear of death, a craving for cosmic justice, and a desire to see our lives as meaningful can lead us to want to believe that we have immortal souls specially created by God who will reward or punish us for our deeds in this life. But it is no less true that a desire to be free of traditional moral standards, and fear of certain -- real or imagined -- political and social consequences of the truth of religious belief, can also lead us to want to believe that we are just clever animals with no purpose to our lives other than the petty purposes we choose to give them, and that there is no cosmic judge who will punish us for disobeying an objective moral law. Atheism, like religion, can rest on a will to believe than on dispassionate rational arguments. Indeed, as the philosopher CFJ Martin has pointed out, (I'm paraphrasing here) the element of divine punishment -- traditionally damnation in Hell -- shows that atheism is hardly less plausibly motivated by wishful thinking than theism is. For while it is hard to understand why someone would want to believe that he is in danger of perpetual hellfire, it is not at all hard to see why one would desperately want not to believe this.
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None of the atheists or agnostics are afraid of death, but the Christian who posted is. I find that interesting.
I'm not afraid of death.
It's an interesting pattern. I've got two theories: A) the religious are afraid they selected the wrong religion or weren't good enough to enter heaven or B) the religious aren't really all that excited by the prospect of immortality.
My theory would rather be that people who are afraid of an unknown like death are also likely to turn to a framework that promises them protection from that unknown.
rumborak
Exactly. Fear of death is one of the main reasons religion exists (the other being a way to fill in the gaps in our knowledge). But shouldn't the religion be assuaging their fear of death?
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But it is no less true that a desire to be free of traditional moral standards, and fear of certain -- real or imagined -- political and social consequences of the truth of religious belief, can also lead us to want to believe that we are just clever animals with no purpose to our lives other than the petty purposes we choose to give them, and that there is no cosmic judge who will punish us for disobeying an objective moral law. Atheism, like religion, can rest on a will to believe than on dispassionate rational arguments. Indeed, as the philosopher CFJ Martin has pointed out, (I'm paraphrasing here) the element of divine punishment -- traditionally damnation in Hell -- shows that atheism is hardly less plausibly motivated by wishful thinking than theism is. For while it is hard to understand why someone would want to believe that he is in danger of perpetual hellfire, it is not at all hard to see why one would desperately want not to believe this.
Interesting. It is certainly possible for people to claim to be atheists without ever having thought through the issues involved, much like religious people can do, but in my experience atheists are generally atheists due to a lack of evidence for anything that would lead in the direction of religion rather than fear of some religious idea that has nothing to support it other than stories in a very old book. Often, many people would tend to settle for the more socially acceptable label of agnostic if they don't care to think things through, I would imagine. Some people just aren't interested in metaphysics and all that....
Exactly. Fear of death is one of the main reasons religion exists (the other being a way to fill in the gaps in our knowledge). But shouldn't the religion be assuaging their fear of death?
Possibly, but if that religion is a social control tool as much as anything else, then there needs to be positive and negative sanctions on order for the religion to function, death being an integral part of that. Guilt is a big part of religion. Pray to Jesus, give to the church fund and thou shalt be guaranteed a seat next to the baby Jesus himself in heaven. Be an infidel and your purty little butt will be roasted for all eternity by a big red dude with a forked tail. Mwahahahaaa!*
*For the humourless among us, that is not intended to accurately represent heaven and hell ;-)
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Whose death? My own? No. Someones that I love? Yes.
For me, the fear of death isn't the actual dying. It is the people left behind who have to deal with it. I don't really care if I die, but I care that my parents would have to deal with the consequences of that.
I could not have said it better myself! :tup
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It is true that a fear of death, a craving for cosmic justice, and a desire to see our lives as meaningful can lead us to want to believe that we have immortal souls specially created by God who will reward or punish us for our deeds in this life. But it is no less true that a desire to be free of traditional moral standards, and fear of certain -- real or imagined -- political and social consequences of the truth of religious belief, can also lead us to want to believe that we are just clever animals with no purpose to our lives other than the petty purposes we choose to give them, and that there is no cosmic judge who will punish us for disobeying an objective moral law. Atheism, like religion, can rest on a will to believe than on dispassionate rational arguments. Indeed, as the philosopher CFJ Martin has pointed out, (I'm paraphrasing here) the element of divine punishment -- traditionally damnation in Hell -- shows that atheism is hardly less plausibly motivated by wishful thinking than theism is. For while it is hard to understand why someone would want to believe that he is in danger of perpetual hellfire, it is not at all hard to see why one would desperately want not to believe this.
On the whole, this is an interesting prospect which I hadn't given much thought to beforehand. However, this:
a desire to be free of traditional moral standards
is off-base. Your morality doesn't necessarily change as you become atheistic; in practice, the only thing that atheistic and theistic people disagree on morally are things like nonheterosexuality, eating meat on certain days of the week, and prayer infrequency, all of which were never strictly immoral in the first place.
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My only fear is not living life to its full potential. Dying when I feel like I still have work to accomplish on Planet Earth.
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On the whole, this is an interesting prospect which I hadn't given much thought to beforehand. However, this:
a desire to be free of traditional moral standards
is off-base. Your morality doesn't necessarily change as you become atheistic;
Just fyi, you barely will get an Omega post that doesn't have his theistic morality argument shoehorned into it.
rumborak
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Yes. Don't believe in an afterlife and I believe everything in life is ultimately meaningless, but we're just biologically programmed to be afraid of death, so that's why.
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Yes. Don't believe in an afterlife and I believe everything in life is ultimately meaningless, but we're just biologically programmed to be afraid of death, so that's why.
I don't think we are biologically programmed to be afraid of death. I think we are biologically programmed to prefer survival.
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The reason adults don't believe in santa clause is not because it doesn't make sense to them, it's because they can't deal with the consequences of being naughty boys and girls and in turn not getting presents...
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On the whole, this is an interesting prospect which I hadn't given much thought to beforehand. However, this:
a desire to be free of traditional moral standards
is off-base. Your morality doesn't necessarily change as you become atheistic;
Just fyi, you barely will get an Omega post that doesn't have his theistic morality argument shoehorned into it.
rumborak
I know that, but something about it is just so blatantly incorrect that I can't resist baiting him.
Omega is irresistible.
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This just happend at a wildlife park in Sweden:
https://sverigesradio.se/sida/artikel.aspx?programid=2054&artikel=5155370
I canīt think of a more aweful end of your life than to be killed by a predator!
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This just happend at a wildlife park in Sweden:
https://sverigesradio.se/sida/artikel.aspx?programid=2054&artikel=5155370
I canīt think of a more aweful end of your life than to be killed by a predator!
Kind of makes me aware of what it must be like for most other species.....
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This just happend at a wildlife park in Sweden:
https://sverigesradio.se/sida/artikel.aspx?programid=2054&artikel=5155370
I canīt think of a more aweful end of your life than to be killed by a predator!
The actual experience, or what? Because honestly, I'd say dying in a car accident because some dumbfuck can't correctly judge how fast your moving and pulls out in front of you is a worse way to die. At least if a predator eats you, you're death is somewhat constructive.
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This just happend at a wildlife park in Sweden:
https://sverigesradio.se/sida/artikel.aspx?programid=2054&artikel=5155370
I canīt think of a more aweful end of your life than to be killed by a predator!
The actual experience, or what? Because honestly, I'd say dying in a car accident because some dumbfuck can't correctly judge how fast your moving and pulls out in front of you is a worse way to die. At least if a predator eats you, you're death is somewhat constructive.
Yeah i mean the actual experience. The wolfs werenīt attacking her out of hunger apparently and she was in the hands of the wolfs for 30 minutes before they could do anything. Itīs just a very gruesome thing to be eaten alive and the slow process it would take before you pass out and die!
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a desire to be free of traditional moral standards
This is off-base. Your morality doesn't necessarily change as you become atheistic; in practice, the only thing that atheistic and theistic people disagree on morally are things like nonheterosexuality, eating meat on certain days of the week, and prayer infrequency, all of which were never strictly immoral in the first place.
To begin with, allow me to make it clear that I wasn't making any sort of ontological moral claim in the particular passage in question here. And I'm not too sure what you mean by "off-base" or what, really, the disagreement is here. I don't think what I posted was controversial in the slightest. If I may, I get the distinct feeling that you're simply "disagreeing" with me merely for the sake of disagreeing with me. But, to the point: one's metaphysics and philosophical approach (under which morality resides) cannot fail to change as one makes a transition from atheism to theism or vice versa. For on theism, (at least in most forms of theism; e.g. Christianity, etc) morality is to be understood an objective and binding reality which is ordained and a reflection of God's paradigmatically good nature. In most forms of atheism (emphasis on most; there are multitudes of approaches to morality on an atheistic worldview though, not surprisingly, I believe they all ultimately fail), morality is nothing more but an subjective human construct with no binding value which varies from cultures and across continents or else is nothing more than a mere tool that natural selection deemed helpful in the advancement of the flourishing of the species homo sapiens.
But I digress... Look at me, I'm running my mouth off again on morality. Anyway, you've read too much into the term "traditional moral standards," I think. For I only meant to convey a very non-controversial and simple point with that section of text; that a desire to be free of the traditional moral standards established and maintained by a theistic worldview (which go far beyond the mere ritualistic establishments you mention; abstinence from sex before marriage, a singular and faithful marriage, opposition towards abortion, euthanasia, some forms of capital punishment, a marriage grounded in reason and the Natural Law -- you guessed it: between one man and one woman -- etc, etc, etc) is more than capable of leading some to seek to abandon theism and turn to atheism. The main point, again, is that atheism, like religion, can and often does rest on a will to believe rather than on dispassionate rational arguments.
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The main point, again, is that atheism, like religion, can and often does rest on a will to believe rather than on dispassionate rational arguments.
I think we can all agree on this.
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else is nothing more than a mere tool that natural selection deemed helpful in the advancement of the flourishing of the species homo sapiens.
I'm not sure you quite understand evolutionary theory. But that's a huge sidebar.
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else is nothing more than a mere tool that natural selection deemed helpful in the advancement of the flourishing of the species homo sapiens.
I'm not sure you quite understand evolutionary theory. But that's a huge sidebar.
His understanding seems fine to me.
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else is nothing more than a mere tool that natural selection deemed helpful in the advancement of the flourishing of the species homo sapiens.
I'm not sure you quite understand evolutionary theory. But that's a huge sidebar.
His understanding seems fine to me.
The sentence does imply that natural selection is an entity but I'm sure that is not at all what Omega meant.
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That's the understanding I assumed.
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It implies there was a design, or that there was something more than just the happenstance and pure whathappenedness of reality and evolution. It's not that natural selection chose anything, it's that certain traits were more advantageous, at least in combination with other traits. Furthermore, there was no "advancement" of the human species, or any species for that matter, as this heavily implies that there is a goal, an end and that humans are "progressing."
Basically, there's several themes in how he described evolutionary theory which are off-base, or at least out-of-date.
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The reason adults don't believe in santa clause is not because it doesn't make sense to them, it's because they can't deal with the consequences of being naughty boys and girls and in turn not getting presents...
Boy do I love the smell of straw men in the morning...
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@OP: No. Death is not the end it's only a transition.
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Natural selection is all about survival and reproduction. Biologically, we're programmed to fear death. I believe almost every mentally sane person fears death. I believe (EDIT: pretty much) everyone that claims to not fear death is lying.
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Biologically we're programmed to reproduce. Does that mean someone who's asexual isn't mentally sane?
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Biologically we're programmed to reproduce. Does that mean someone who's asexual isn't mentally sane?
Asexual? No. Just gay people.
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Biologically we're programmed to reproduce. Does that mean someone who's asexual isn't mentally sane?
I meant to keep my statement from being a concrete absolute (hence the word "almost" in my post). Clearly there are sane people that don't fear death or are asexual, or both. But I highly doubt it is anywhere close to being the majority that we've seen in this thread.
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Fair enough.
But you're failing to make the distinction between 'death' and 'dying'. I doubt (m)any of the people here who say they aren't afraid of death would be perfectly fine staring down the barrel of a gun.
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I doubt (m)any of the people here who say they aren't afraid of death would be perfectly fine staring down the barrel of a gun.
Aaaa too many double negatives! I think you are saying that many people, while being afraid of dying, are not afraid of death? If so, I disagree on the basis of what we know about biology.
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Natural selection is all about survival and reproduction. Biologically, we're programmed to fear death. I believe almost every mentally sane person fears death. I believe (EDIT: pretty much) everyone that claims to not fear death is lying.
Well, instinctively we fear death because of self preservation. But, looking at it from a logical perspective, death is inescapable so why fear it? I would be more afraid of the suffering and anticipation before death than death itself.
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24 people have stated that they do not fear death.
6 people have stated that they do.
Biologically, we would expect a given species that has fear potential (e.g. humans )to fear death. Historically, the fear of death is everywhere, including our last two millennia of logic - it's in countless religions and mythologies that have come and gone.
So either 1) DTF is a very special community, or 2) someone is lying.
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What motivation would there be to lie about it?
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I don't know, but I've a hunch. It might offend people if I stated it, though.
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:lol I figured.
Either way though, the majority of people who responded no in this thread are not religious, so I don't really see how this:
Historically, the fear of death is everywhere, including our last two millennia of logic - it's in countless religions and mythologies that have come and gone.
Is relevant.
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I just wanted to say that based on biology and history, one would expect the poll to be leaning toward the "afraid of death" option, if anything. Clearly it's not, so I suspect something's fishy.
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I'm not sure why you're making a biological argument for this. 'Death' is a pretty abstract idea - there's no biological reason to fear it intrinsically unless faced with a potentially fatal situation. I'm not afraid of being dead because I'm not going to be around then to mourn my own non-existence. That doesn't mean I wouldn't be scared in a fatal situation.
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I generally don't like to claim that people are lying when they talk about what they think, but I have a very hard time believing that the majority of people have no fear of death. Would that mean that if suddenly confronted by a gunman (that was aiming to kill and was a perfect shot), you would feel no fear? I'm not saying people "haven't accepted" death or are that you are all Voldemorts living in constant and extreme fear of death, or that there aren't things most people are more afraid of (prolonged /extreme pain, death of loved one, etc.), but I do think it's a very rare person who truly wouldn't be frightened by the prospect of dying at all, and I just find it very difficult to believe that this forum happens to be populated by dozens of them.
As for me personally, I love life, and I believe there is nothing for me after death. So naturally, since living is very valuable to me and death would deny me of that, I would say I am afraid of death.
Edit: If you do not fear death, then wouldn't there be no reason to be scared in a fatal situation? Since I don't believe in an afterlife, I am not afraid of "being dead" as an experience since I don't believe there is any sort of perception of "being dead" - I am afraid of the prospect of having the chance for any further experience denied, though. The only reasons I could see not to be afraid of that is if you feel that further experiences would be negative (e.g. you are depressed, in extreme suffering, etc.) or that you feel your past experiences have fulfilled you so much that any further experiences would simply be a bonus, and you don't value them so significantly. I believe that age will bring me closer to both of those states, but for now having all possible future experiences taken away is a fairly frightening prospect.
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Yeah, you can accept death and still fear it.
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H, you're splitting hairs. One can fear the proposition of dying but not be afraid of death as it applies to the afterlife or whatever. To call folks liars for how they feel towards it is also pretty off base.
Also, what one means when one is talking about death in this threa may be totally different than what another means. You're argreeing with people.
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I have to say this whole "people who say they aren't afraid are lying" business awfully reeks of Omega's inability to understand that people can live without a theistically grounded morality.
Just because you can't, doesn't mean nobody else can.
rumborak
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I have to say this whole "people who say they aren't afraid are lying" business awfully reeks of Omega's inability to understand that people can live without a theistically grounded morality.
Just because you can't, doesn't mean nobody else can.
rumborak
Then I'm afraid that you've completely misunderstood all I've posted on in regards to morality. My stance was never "Wow! I can't imagine or understand how you live without objective morality". My stance was rather "your proposed moral landscape, if it entails moral-antirealism, if not grounded ontologically, and if without force of law is not only untenable, but patently false and demonstrably so".
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H, you're splitting hairs. One can fear the proposition of dying but not be afraid of death as it applies to the afterlife or whatever.
I wouldn't say anyone is lying, but I gotta say, I think you're the one splitting hairs here. I don't think you're answer is completely answering the question, "are you afraid of death." It seems to me, that if you're afraid of a fatal situation, you are afraid of death.
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"Where did we come from? Why are we here? Where do we go when we die? What lies beyond...And what lay before? Is anything certain in life? They say, life is too short, the here and the now and youre only given one shot but could there be more, have I lived before, or could this be all that weve got? If I die tomorrow Id be allright because I believe that after were gone the spirit carries on
I used to be frightened of dying, I used to think death was the end. But that was before Im not scared anymore, I know that my soul will transcend. I may never find all the answers, I may never understand why, I may never prove what I know to be true, But I know that I still have to try." John Petrucci(Dream Theater) ;D
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"Where did we come from? Why are we here? Where do we go when we die? What lies beyond...And what lay before? Is anything certain in life? They say, life is too short, the here and the now and youre only given one shot but could there be more, have I lived before, or could this be all that weve got? If I die tomorrow Id be allright because I believe that after were gone the spirit carries on
I used to be frightened of dying, I used to think death was the end. But that was before Im not scared anymore, I know that my soul will transcend. I may never find all the answers, I may never understand why, I may never prove what I know to be true, But I know that I still have to try." John Petrucci(Dream Theater) ;D
nice.
how did it take this long?
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H, you're splitting hairs. One can fear the proposition of dying but not be afraid of death as it applies to the afterlife or whatever.
I wouldn't say anyone is lying, but I gotta say, I think you're the one splitting hairs here. I don't think you're answer is completely answering the question, "are you afraid of death." It seems to me, that if you're afraid of a fatal situation, you are afraid of death.
The pain associated with death maybe. I don't think anyone is particularly fond of the medium by which they die.
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H, you're splitting hairs. One can fear the proposition of dying but not be afraid of death as it applies to the afterlife or whatever.
I wouldn't say anyone is lying, but I gotta say, I think you're the one splitting hairs here. I don't think you're answer is completely answering the question, "are you afraid of death." It seems to me, that if you're afraid of a fatal situation, you are afraid of death.
The pain associated with death maybe. I don't think anyone is particularly fond of the medium by which they die.
I'm not disputing that. I'm saying there's more to it than this.
Perhaps a better question might be, do you care to live? I could argue that if you answer yes to this, you're logically answering yes to fearing death.
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No. But I'm not very excited about it, either.
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Death, no.
But kind of like Z said, more of afraid of what I leave behind. My greatest fear is dying young (by young I mean in my 30s-50s) and leaving my future wife and kids with nothing or leaving them in undesirable financial conditions and of all the things I could miss with my wife and kids. To me, that is my greatest fear.
Also, to lighten the post: In adulthood, it might be worthwhile to get one of these: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mgnDHbeVGG4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mgnDHbeVGG4)
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I have to say this whole "people who say they aren't afraid are lying" business awfully reeks of Omega's inability to understand that people can live without a theistically grounded morality.
Just because you can't, doesn't mean nobody else can.
rumborak
Then I'm afraid that you've completely misunderstood all I've posted on in regards to morality. My stance was never "Wow! I can't imagine or understand how you live without objective morality". My stance was rather "your proposed moral landscape, if it entails moral-antirealism, if not grounded ontologically, and if without force of law is not only untenable, but patently false and demonstrably so".
Please demonstrate it.
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I have to say this whole "people who say they aren't afraid are lying" business awfully reeks of Omega's inability to understand that people can live without a theistically grounded morality.
Just because you can't, doesn't mean nobody else can.
rumborak
Then I'm afraid that you've completely misunderstood all I've posted on in regards to morality. My stance was never "Wow! I can't imagine or understand how you live without objective morality". My stance was rather "your proposed moral landscape, if it entails moral-antirealism, if not grounded ontologically, and if without force of law is not only untenable, but patently false and demonstrably so".
And we've shown again and again how you are wrong, by being the plain living examples of it. Your incredulity can at this point IMHO only ascribed to your inability to fathom it.
To use an analogy, you're arguing with us that planes can't fly because they're heavier than air, and ignore the fact that there's thousands flying every day.
rumborak
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I have to say this whole "people who say they aren't afraid are lying" business awfully reeks of Omega's inability to understand that people can live without a theistically grounded morality.
Just because you can't, doesn't mean nobody else can.
rumborak
Then I'm afraid that you've completely misunderstood all I've posted on in regards to morality. My stance was never "Wow! I can't imagine or understand how you live without objective morality". My stance was rather "your proposed moral landscape, if it entails moral-antirealism, if not grounded ontologically, and if without force of law is not only untenable, but patently false and demonstrably so".
And we've shown again and again how you are wrong, by being the plain living examples of it. Your incredulity can at this point IMHO only ascribed to your inability to to fathom it.
rumborak
SSSHHHH.... Rumborak! I haven't been on DTF as consistently as I once was. I wanted to witness it first hand.
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Not wanting death does not necessarily equate to being afraid of it.
There an many things in life I would not want to happen to me...it doesn't mean I am afraid of them.
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I'm not afraid of death. And I'm not lying about it.
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Perhaps a better question might be, do you care to live? I could argue that if you answer yes to this, you're logically answering yes to fearing death.
I care to live because I don't want to waste my life. Explain how caring to live means that I logically fear death. I know a lot of inevitable things are going to happen to me eventually, and I care if they happen, but I certainly don't live in fear of them.
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I have to say this whole "people who say they aren't afraid are lying" business awfully reeks of Omega's inability to understand that people can live without a theistically grounded morality.
Just because you can't, doesn't mean nobody else can.
rumborak
I know, which is why I said I hate to say the "I don't believe your answer is true" type thing, but in this case I just honestly have difficulty believing it. Maybe that is just because I feel differently and can't imagine it, but people in general seem to be afraid of dying (hence why fatal situations tend to induce fear) so this forum just happening to be full of people with no fear of it seems odd to me (since I didn't think there was any connection between liking prog music and not fearing death... maybe that's something someone should look into).
I think you're the one splitting hairs here. I don't think you're answer is completely answering the question, "are you afraid of death." It seems to me, that if you're afraid of a fatal situation, you are afraid of death.
And basically this. To me it seems like most people are answering the question "Are you afraid of being dead?" and and answering "No" because they believe that they won't be suffering (or experiencing anything) while dead. That's not really how I would interpret the question "Are you afraid of death?" If you would feel at all afraid if you were suddenly tied down and about to be subjected to a lethal injection (so that pain is not an issue), then I would describe that as being afraid of death.
Again, perhaps no one here would feel the slightest bit of fear if that happened and I just can't imagine it because I think that I would. But honestly my best guess is either that most people would feel some fear in that situation and hence are answering wrongly or are answering a different question than I am thinking of.
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Then I'm afraid that you've completely misunderstood all I've posted on in regards to morality. My stance was never "Wow! I can't imagine or understand how you live without objective morality". My stance was rather "your proposed moral landscape, if it entails moral-antirealism, if not grounded ontologically, and if without force of law is not only untenable, but patently false and demonstrably so".
Please demonstrate it.
Again? No, sorry; forgive me if I'm not too eager to do so once more. Through past experience attempting to discuss philosophical matters -- especially morality -- with others here on this subforum, I've come to discover just how immature and emotional DTFers can be when discussing (attempting to discuss seems a more apt wording of it) certain philosophical matters, if not philosophy in general. Not only would I not be able to get one measly post into the ordeal before receiving point-missing and immature responses such as "but atheists can act good and morally too" (guilty as charged, rumborak) or "lol I don't need to believe in some magical fairy or leprechaun to tell me how to act good," but I'd also have to face the prospect of being "warned" again or some such nonsense after an utterly confused crowd of DTFers who aren't even half sure what to be angry about barge into the thread and demand my head on a platter for having the audacity of disagreeing with and challenging the predominantly secular worldview that most of the users happen to share on this subforum.
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And basically this. To me it seems like most people are answering the question "Are you afraid of being dead?" and and answering "No" because they believe that they won't be suffering (or experiencing anything) while dead. That's not really how I would interpret the question "Are you afraid of death?" If you would feel at all afraid if you were suddenly tied down and about to be subjected to a lethal injection (so that pain is not an issue), then I would describe that as being afraid of death.
Again, perhaps no one here would feel the slightest bit of fear if that happened and I just can't imagine it because I think that I would. But honestly my best guess is either that most people would feel some fear in that situation and hence are answering wrongly or are answering a different question than I am thinking of.
I see your point, and it might really be more of a question how people interpret the question than the actual underlying fear (or lack thereof). I interpreted the question as "Are you afraid of at one point ceasing to exist?" to which I can solidly say "No". That said, even the remote thought of suffering doesn't right now inspire much more than "well, that would suck indeed". That's not fear though.
rumborak
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nevermind, bad idea
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Then I'm afraid that you've completely misunderstood all I've posted on in regards to morality. My stance was never "Wow! I can't imagine or understand how you live without objective morality". My stance was rather "your proposed moral landscape, if it entails moral-antirealism, if not grounded ontologically, and if without force of law is not only untenable, but patently false and demonstrably so".
Please demonstrate it.
Again? No, sorry; forgive me if I'm not too eager to do so once more. Through past experience attempting to discuss philosophical matters -- especially morality -- with others here on this subforum, I've come to discover just how immature and emotional DTFers can be when discussing (attempting to discuss seems a more apt wording of it) certain philosophical matters, if not philosophy in general. Not only would I not be able to get one measly post into the ordeal before receiving point-missing and immature responses such as "but atheists can act good and morally too" (guilty as charged, rumborak) or "lol I don't need to believe in some magical fairy or leprechaun to tell me how to act good," but I'd also have to face the prospect of being "warned" again or some such nonsense after an utterly confused crowd of DTFers who aren't even half sure what to be angry about barge into the thread and demand my head on a platter for having the audacity of disagreeing with and challenging the predominantly secular worldview that most of the users happen to share on this subforum.
Given your grand sweep against half of the posters in this forum, I can definitely also tell you that in my opinion (and probably others) you suffer from delusions of grandeur regarding the heft of your intellectual positions. To us, you're essentially dragging in whatever philosophical scraps you can find to support a theological position that found its origins in a time where religion, morality and life were one and the same thing, and the disagreement to it resulted in your loss of life. To us immature agnostics/atheists, the matter is actually as simple as the sun rising. We a moral because we enjoy being so. Dragging in centuries of apologetics really only corroborates how religion has utterly failed to explain its ultimate raison d'etre.
EDIT: Kirk put it more succinctly I guess :lol
rumborak
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(https://www.fengshui-gift.com/store/images/T/pa045987-01.jpg)
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Death has been on my mind alot lately after a convo with my brother and mom on the matter. Basically, my brother isn't worried or afraid of death because he wont know it. Since the consciousness would be gone, it wouldn't matter anyway, and there would be no worries. He'd be able to explain it better (if he wasn't banned), but my argument was that people are afraid of death because they don't know what comes after, and the thought of no longer being able to think or have consciousness scares the hell out of people, myself included. There's not much I can do about it, but the thought of life just stopping is really scary. Would I awaken as a newborn with a new mind (bit of a paradox there or it just doesn't make any sense) or what?
Yeah, death is pretty fucking scary. Even though I wont be aware I'm dead, I don't want to stop living.
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Given your grand sweep against half of the posters in this forum, I can definitely also tell you that in my opinion (and probably others) you suffer from delusions of grandeur regarding the heft of your intellectual positions. To us, you're essentially dragging in whatever philosophical scraps you can find to support a theological position that found its origins in a time where religion, morality and life were one and the same thing, and the disagreement to it resulted in your loss of life. To us immature agnostics/atheists, the matter is actually as simple as the sun rising. We a moral because we enjoy being so. Dragging in centuries of apologetics really only corroborates how religion has utterly failed to explain its ultimate raison d'etre.
EDIT: Kirk put it more succinctly I guess :lol
rumborak
Opinions come cheap in philosophy, rumborak. If you are unable to defend your philosophical position or your worldview in light of criticism, then you cannot fail to be behaving irrationally. You cannot dismiss a philosophical argument by casting it aside and labeling it as you appear to be doing (and as is embarrassingly incorrect) as an antiquated and now-obsolete method of attaining truth or dismissing it as a purely "religious" endeavor. Can't you see, rumborak, that your very own worldview -- the rejection of the Scholastic and Aristotelian (among others) philosophical foundations which sustain Christianity -- is itself a position that has to be defended? Unbeknown to you, rumborak, your worldview itself rests on layers of philosophical foundations which need be defended (and which are demonstrably incorrect, I would argue). If you really think that a defense of your moral landscape can be achieved as simply as uttering "cuz I like it that way," then not only do you appear to be ignorant of the rather weak philosophical pillars which sustain your very own worldview, but have also failed to understand the purpose of philosophy in the first place. If you care to defend your own worldview with rational arguments or critique mine, then I invite you to attempt to do so. But what you cannot do is simply dismiss another worldview without denying of its arguments and, furthermore, without denying any of its premises. A determined skeptic can always deny the conclusion of ones argument simply by denying one of the premises. Yet to maintain his atheism in the face of rational argument with premises which one would be unjustified in denying is to compromise ones intellectual integrity.
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Wow this thread is burning! :flame:
*Leaves discretley while dodging arrows*
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Wow this thread is burning! :flame:
*Leaves discretley while dodging arrows*
Yup...here we go again. :facepalm:
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H, you're splitting hairs. One can fear the proposition of dying but not be afraid of death as it applies to the afterlife or whatever.
I wouldn't say anyone is lying, but I gotta say, I think you're the one splitting hairs here. I don't think you're answer is completely answering the question, "are you afraid of death." It seems to me, that if you're afraid of a fatal situation, you are afraid of death.
Right on target.
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(https://www.kirksnosehair.com/Portals/0/emoticons/OutWindow.gif)
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IT crowd?
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I thought it kind of worked in a thread with the title "Are You Afraid of Death?" :lol
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Omega, once again a thread has turned into a thread about you. I recognize that some others posts were baiting. In any case, your previous ban did not help, which I hoped it would. This is a warning to stay out of p/r or another ban is on its way.
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Perhaps a better question might be, do you care to live? I could argue that if you answer yes to this, you're logically answering yes to fearing death.
Death is inevitable. I think it is the manner of the death event itself that people fear, not the state of being dead. Once I'm dead then I won't feel anything, but I'm not really looking forward to a shitload of pain up to the event itself.
I suppose, in the interests of pedantry, one could argue that the shitload of pain up to the actual moment is actually part of life. So in that case, I'm afraid of the part of life just before the being dead bit, just like I'm afraid of any situation which involves a lot of pain, even if I recover. But I'm still not afraid of being dead as I don't see anything about being dead that warrants me being afraid.
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Death is inevitable. I think it is the manner of the death event itself that people fear, not the state of being dead.
For me it's the state of not being that I'm afraid of, rather than the method of death. If you're going to cease to exist after that point anyway, what does the pain matter? :P
I'm afraid of pain too, but not as much as the not living bit.
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(https://www.kirksnosehair.com/Portals/0/emoticons/OutWindow.gif)
:rollin
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Perhaps a better question might be, do you care to live? I could argue that if you answer yes to this, you're logically answering yes to fearing death.
I care to live because I don't want to waste my life. Explain how caring to live means that I logically fear death. I know a lot of inevitable things are going to happen to me eventually, and I care if they happen, but I certainly don't live in fear of them.
Perhaps we're talking a bout different things, as I don't see how saying yes, you're afraid of death, means you have to live your life fearing death.
I made caring to live opposite of fearing death because of a couple of situations I've been in myself. If you don't care to live, then you won't be afraid of a fatal situation. You won't be afraid of death. But if you do care to live, you will avoid a fatal situation, you will do whatever it is in your power to avoid death. Now, part of my definition of being "afraid" involves running away from, or at least, running away from something is indicative if being afraid of something. So, I cant' really see how, with my understanding of the words afraid and care (and I'm not saying you have to adopt these, I'm just saying this is from my perspective), you can be not afraid of death if you care to live and try to avoid and get away from death.
If nothing I said above makes much sense, I'm sure Heidegger explains it better.
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I get where you're coming from, Scheavo, but that's not what I would call fearing death - it's simply self-preservation. What I call fear of death is that death looms over what you do in life, and you think of death every day, hoping that you can avoid it in some way. If we go by your definition, then yes, I agree, but that's not what I define fear as, to simply strive to avoid something. If everything you did was done with the simple purpose of avoiding any possible situation, then yes, that's fear, but if you simply try to avoid such a situation when it presents itself, then that's, as I said, self-preservation in my book.
For the record, since I'm new to this discussion: I try to not worry about death that much, but when I do, I think that my thoughts are somewhat along the lines of what Blob has said: I don't exactly fear the moment of dying, but of not being, because that's something that is - and will always stay - a complete unknown, more than the concept of dying, and that's what I'm afraid of.
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And I think that part I'm totally missing. The idea of non-existence doesn't bother me in the least. I came from a state of non-existence, I'm going back to it at some point. Sounds rather symmetric.
rumborak
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True, but you probably don't remember anything from the state of non-being. Therefore, you can not have even the slightest idea what that entails or if it even entails anything (though I can't imagine anything not entailing anything), and that's what scares me, I think.
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That's a good point, not being is one of the only things human beings cannot under any circumstance possibly fathom. And in the abstract it's easy to say you're not afraid to die, especially since the people saying it aren't going to die anytime soon (hopefully). I suspect that when actually faced with the prospect of death (even a very quick painless death) the "Death don't scare me none" attitude might change a bit.
That being said, death don't scare me none.
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I've also met people, however, who got very calm in the face of death (my grandfather), and seemed very accepting of the fact that he was about to die. Maybe that was only to give us peace of mind, but I don't think that what you are saying applies to necessarily everyone.
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I have always thought it was interesting that a death sentence is considered worse than a life sentence (ie for a criminal).
what do you think is the logic behind this reasoning?
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I've also met people, however, who got very calm in the face of death (my grandfather), and seemed very accepting of the fact that he was about to die. Maybe that was only to give us peace of mind, but I don't think that what you are saying applies to necessarily everyone.
Oh of course it's not applicable to everyone. I was just pointing out that saying you're not afraid of death while you're young, healthy and not likely going to die any time soon doesn't have a whole lot of meaning, you know? Cause you're so far removed from the situation that you're talking about and only dealing with it in the most abstract sense. Once again this doesn't apply to everyone and people are just as likely to actually be cool in the face of death as they are not to be.
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I have always thought it was interesting that a death sentence is considered worse than a life sentence (ie for a criminal).
what do you think is the logic behind this reasoning?
In a civilized society it wouldn't be. I suspect the current idea is a holdover from when people thought prisoners could/would be treated humanely. Your problem is that you know what a prison is like, so you know better.
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I am not frightened of dying. Any time will do, I don't mind. Why should I be afraid of dying? There's no reason for it, you gotta go sometime.
Really DTF? Four pages and not a single Floyd reference? I am disappoint.
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I have always thought it was interesting that a death sentence is considered worse than a life sentence (ie for a criminal).
what do you think is the logic behind this reasoning?
Life sentences, generally speaking:
1) offer a chance to get out; that is, even if you're sentenced to prison "for life", it is not impossible in all cases to get out of jail one day.
2) allow you to be alive and to do many of the things that living people like to do, like drawing and thinking and watching movies and eating.
The assumption is that people generally prefer to be alive than to be dead, which I think is accurate (even, perhaps surprisingly, with regard to the religious).
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that is kind of the conclusion that I reached. the idea that a life sentence holds out hope, whereas death ends hope
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24 people have stated that they do not fear death.
6 people have stated that they do.
Biologically, we would expect a given species that has fear potential (e.g. humans )to fear death. Historically, the fear of death is everywhere, including our last two millennia of logic - it's in countless religions and mythologies that have come and gone.
So either 1) DTF is a very special community, or 2) someone is lying.
"Fearing death" is not the same as "fearing a deadly situation". Of course I'd be afraid if someone were about to end my life, especially violently. That's obvious and instinctive; obviously I like to be living and would like to continue living as long as possible.
However, when you're asked if you "fear death", people generally assume the ideal case, probably death by old age.
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A different question... is anyone afraid of anything?
I like not being in extreme pain. I don't want to be in extreme pain. If I was in a situation where I was threatened by extreme pain I would probably feel afraid. But currently I don't feel like I am at much risk of extreme pain, I don't spend my life constantly thinking or worrying about being in extreme pain, or go to desperate lengths to try to avoid ever being in extreme pain. So going by that definition, if someone asked me "Are you afraid of extreme pain?" I would have to answer no.
Replace extreme pain with just about anything else, you get the same answer. Extreme pain, losing a limb, death of a loved one... I could literally put any of them into the same paragraph and if that's the criteria for being afraid of them, then I would have to say I am not afraid of them. So if someone asks me "Are you afraid of anything?", I should answer no.
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I've also met people, however, who got very calm in the face of death (my grandfather), and seemed very accepting of the fact that he was about to die. Maybe that was only to give us peace of mind, but I don't think that what you are saying applies to necessarily everyone.
Well honestly, by the time I'm in my 80's, I don't know how much I'll be afraid of death, even under my description. Maybe if life were something wonderful, or suddenly turns into something wonderful, I might change my opinion.
But to go back, I guess when I hear the question, are you afraid of death, I don't think it entails you having to be afraid of it every day. If I were to ask you, are you afraid of spiders? Or heights? Or snakes? I'm not asking you if you think about those things every day, and fear them, I'm asking you, when you think about those things, do you fear it? To take the question, are you afraid of death, as meaning, do you think about it every day and have panic attacks, is I think a very odd way of interpreting the question.