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General => Archive => Political and Religious => Topic started by: comment on May 22, 2012, 07:11:57 PM
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"But he was pierced through for our transgressions,
He was crushed for our iniquities;
The chastening for our well-being fell upon him,
And by his scourging we are healed."
This is a verse from Isaiah 53. I think it sounds like Jesus. In fact the whole rest of the chapter does too IMO. It amazes me that this was written about 700 years before He came.
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You're shocked that there was prophecy that jesus was said to have lived up to when the only reason people care about him is because they believe he lived up to those prophecies?
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I see your point Adami, it still amazes me though. I wasn't brought up reading the Bible or appreciating it like I'm growing to now and I thought since there's a lot of verses flying around I'd point out something that may amaze others to find out too. BTW as a Christian I want to publicly repent for the sake of other's, even church forefathers, that were involved with the persecution of your people. May Hashem bless you and keep you. Shalom!
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Good god. Have a lovely thread, I'm out.
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Do you think Nostradamus accurately predicted the future?
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Yeah, it's pretty cool. Great passage. It's pretty famous though and I'd be surprised if most people don't know it already. Its being well-known shouldn't lessen the impact though.
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"But he was pierced through for our transgressions,
He was crushed for our iniquities;
The chastening for our well-being fell upon him,
And by his strypes we are healed."
(https://i.imgur.com/nhLZd.jpg)
Approves
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Funny thing is, I actually looked up the whole passage, and after reading it I thought "hmm, sounds more like he's talking about Israel". Then I read the Wikipedia page and apparently that's how the Jews interpret it too.
I think one dead giveaway is that the whole thing is written in past tense. Also I don't remember Jesus being despised by humanity, or him being disfigured.
rumborak
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Another viewpoint is the story of jesus, being written well after his death, ascribes things about by him that can only be accepted through faith, and could have been highly influenced by the prophecy.
In other words, the authors that spoke of the reasons he died (for our sins) were heavily influenced by the earlier writings in the bible. They wanted to believe he died for those reasons.
Heck, maybe jesus himself was an ordinary man who thought of himself as the person described in that prophecy, and molded his teachings and ministry around them.
Just another explanation.
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I've never got a clear notion from the NT that Jesus accepted what his disciples were hoping him to be. I still think he saw himself more a preparer for the Messiah, not the Messiah himself.
rumborak
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Or maybe he's the Messiah that fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah 53. :dunno:
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It's of course a possibility, but you can't deny that a good amount of "benevolent interpretation" has to go in to make that work. If you just go by circumstantial evidence the most likely explanation is the Jewish one.
rumborak
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I've never got a clear notion from the NT that Jesus accepted what his disciples were hoping him to be. I still think he saw himself more a preparer for the Messiah, not the Messiah himself.
rumborak
Matthew 16:13-20
13 When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say the Son of Man is?”
14 They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”
15 “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”
16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”
17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven. 18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.” 20 Then he ordered his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Messiah.
Seems like a pretty 'clear notion' to me
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Regarding Isaiah 53: Although it isn't recorded that Jesus ever directly quoted Isaiah 53 as far as I can recall (although he did quote other prophecy and say it applied to him, including other passages in Isaiah), his disciples clearly thought that passage applied to him. Mark, Luke, and John refer directly to that passage (Matthew may also, but the reference is a bit more obscure and may simply be coincidental use of similar language). Acts records that VERY soon after Jesus' death, Phillip directly applied that passage to Jesus. And Paul and Peter both refer to it in their letters.
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Regarding Isaiah 53: Although it isn't recorded that Jesus ever directly quoted Isaiah 53 as far as I can recall (although he did quote other prophecy and say it applied to him, including other passages in Isaiah), his disciples clearly thought that passage applied to him. Mark, Luke, and John refer directly to that passage (Matthew may also, but the reference is a bit more obscure and may simply be coincidental use of similar language). Acts records that VERY soon after Jesus' death, Phillip directly applied that passage to Jesus. And Paul and Peter both refer to it in their letters.
Wasn't what made Jesus, 'Jesus'...the fact that he fulfilled EVERY prophecy? I mean...that fact along with some cool stuff like the ressurection is what makes him the Messiah.
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Regarding Isaiah 53: Although it isn't recorded that Jesus ever directly quoted Isaiah 53 as far as I can recall (although he did quote other prophecy and say it applied to him, including other passages in Isaiah), his disciples clearly thought that passage applied to him. Mark, Luke, and John refer directly to that passage (Matthew may also, but the reference is a bit more obscure and may simply be coincidental use of similar language). Acts records that VERY soon after Jesus' death, Phillip directly applied that passage to Jesus. And Paul and Peter both refer to it in their letters.
Wasn't what made Jesus, 'Jesus'...the fact that he fulfilled EVERY prophecy? I mean...that fact along with some cool stuff like the ressurection is what makes him the Messiah.
Isnt it possible the story of the ressurection was created so it would fulfill the prophecy?
Along with many other acts?
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Regarding Isaiah 53: Although it isn't recorded that Jesus ever directly quoted Isaiah 53 as far as I can recall (although he did quote other prophecy and say it applied to him, including other passages in Isaiah), his disciples clearly thought that passage applied to him. Mark, Luke, and John refer directly to that passage (Matthew may also, but the reference is a bit more obscure and may simply be coincidental use of similar language). Acts records that VERY soon after Jesus' death, Phillip directly applied that passage to Jesus. And Paul and Peter both refer to it in their letters.
Wasn't what made Jesus, 'Jesus'...the fact that he fulfilled EVERY prophecy? I mean...that fact along with some cool stuff like the ressurection is what makes him the Messiah.
Isnt it possible the story of the ressurection was created so it would fulfill the prophecy?
Along with many other acts?
It's all about 'Faith' isn't it? Possible? Why sure? It's what you choose to believe.
It's been fun everyone :metal
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That passage has probably shaped Christian doctrine quite a lot, since Jesus himself never said anything about him dying for our (humanity?) sins.
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I think his "destroy this temple and I will rebuild it in 3 days" (Matthew 26) as well as "nobody can know the father except through me" (John 14) are indicative of that.
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That passage has probably shaped Christian doctrine quite a lot, since Jesus himself never said anything about him dying for our (humanity?) sins.
But I thought....
Take this, all of you, and drink from it: this is the cup of my blood, the blood of the new and everlasting covenant. It will be shed for you and for all so that sins may be forgiven. Do this in memory of me.
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Do you think Nostradamus accurately predicted the future?
Hey Scheavo :)
Wow I forgot about him and Stryper for that matter. :)
I remember being younger and watching a video and maybe catching something on the history channel talking about 2012 doomsday stuff. I'm not as familiar with him, but when I was younger I was impressed by what the video presented. IMO, there might be something to his stuff, but I'd be inclined to think it would be a spirit of divination.
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"But he was pierced through for our transgressions,
He was crushed for our iniquities;
The chastening for our well-being fell upon him,
And by his strypes we are healed."
(https://i.imgur.com/nhLZd.jpg)
Approves
[/quote
:rollin
WOW, thanks... I think. :lol
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... "hmm, sounds more like he's talking about Israel". Then I read the Wikipedia page and apparently that's how the Jews interpret it too.
rumborak
Hey rum :)
That's fair.
What doesn't seem fair to me are testimonies from Jews I know who believe Yeshua (Jesus) is the Messiah. I've heard about Rabbi's not teaching or exposing their congregations to the whole chapter for whatever their reasons.
I've never got a clear notion from the NT that Jesus accepted what his disciples were hoping him to be. I still think he saw himself more a preparer for the Messiah, not the Messiah himself.
rumborak
Okay, that's fair too.
You might find this interesting then. In the beginning of Acts after spending 40 days speaking with his disciples about the Kingdom of God, their question about restoring the Kingdom of Israel comes up. Then of course He says it's not for them to know the times or seasons. So even after hearing Him for 40 days they were considering the restoration of Israel. I think that goes along with what your saying. What I see here though is He is preparing the world for His second coming, which is why He had them wait for the Holy Spirit and then start preaching to the other nations after He left.
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Matthew 16:13-20
13 When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say the Son of Man is?”
14 They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”
15 “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”
16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”
17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven. 18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.” 20 Then he ordered his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Messiah.
You can call it my heathen bias, but that last sentence (and it appears in various forms throughout Matthew) sends a shitloads of alarm bells ringing.
In the sense that that sentence is the perfect answer to a doubter's question "If Jesus is the Messiah, why have I never even heard of him?"
The answer: "He told the inner circle he is the Messiah, but also instructed us to not tell anyone else. But I'm letting you into the secret."
It makes zero sense, but it acts as a stopgap explanation to get rid of the inconvenient fact that the supposed Messiah had almost zero impact during his lifetime.
rumborak
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You don't think it's fair that Jews don't believe ol' joshy is the messiah? Well...............he didn't fulfill the prophecies in our opinions. Also, I doubt too many congregations neglect aspects of the Torah in fear of people converting to Christianity.
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Matthew 16:13-20
13 When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say the Son of Man is?”
14 They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”
15 “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”
16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”
17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven. 18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.” 20 Then he ordered his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Messiah.
You can call it my heathen bias, but that last sentence (and it appears in various forms throughout Matthew) sends a shitloads of alarm bells ringing.
In the sense that that sentence is the perfect answer to a doubter's question "If Jesus is the Messiah, why have I never even heard of him?"
The answer: "He told the inner circle he is the Messiah, but also instructed us to not tell anyone else. But I'm letting you into the secret."
It makes zero sense, but it acts as a stopgap explanation to get rid of the inconvenient fact that the supposed Messiah had almost zero impact during his lifetime.
rumborak
Jesus was very secretive at some points in his ministry. He would heal people and tell them not to tell anyone else. His command in this passage to remain silent about his being the Messiah is probably along the same lines.
I'm not totally sure of the reason but I think it might have to do with this concept:
"At that time Jesus said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children." (Mat 11:25)
Same idea behind the parables.
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You don't think it's fair that Jews don't believe ol' joshy is the messiah? Well...............he didn't fulfill the prophecies in our opinions. Also, I doubt too many congregations neglect aspects of the Torah in fear of people converting to Christianity.
No Adami, I don't think that. People should think for themselves. Based on my friends testimony, what they said wasn't fair IMO. I didn't try to assume their Rabbi's reasons. However, I apologize to you for being presumptuous earlier in the thread with my attempt at being conciliatory for what I've learned about Jewish persecution and church involvement.
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Do you think Nostradamus accurately predicted the future?
Hey Scheavo :)
Wow I forgot about him and Stryper for that matter. :)
I remember being younger and watching a video and maybe catching something on the history channel talking about 2012 doomsday stuff. I'm not as familiar with him, but when I was younger I was impressed by what the video presented. IMO, there might be something to his stuff, but I'd be inclined to think it would be a spirit of divination.
I guess I'm just inclined to see it more as, if you write vague enough prophecies, people will fill them in and apply them to whomever they want. I read the prophecy in the OP, and I think wow, that could apply to a lot of people.
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Perhaps. But when you notice later in text that the one who was slaughtered is now alive, it narrows it down a little
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I assume your talking about the supposed resurrection?
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Supposed or not there are not many Jewish messiahs who were rejected unto death, which actually served to be an atoning death who also supposedly came back to life
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Supposed or not there are not many Jewish messiahs who were rejected unto death, which actually served to be an atoning death who also supposedly came back to life
There have been multiple false messiahs. But when one group claims one messiah superior, they tend to kill off the competition.
Edit: Also, don't forget the most famous (still yet to proven false) messiah...Brian.
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"But he was pierced through for our transgressions,
He was crushed for our iniquities;
The chastening for our well-being fell upon him,
And by his strypes we are healed."
(https://i.imgur.com/nhLZd.jpg)
Approves
:rollin
WOW, thanks... I think. :lol
:lol Yeah, it just reminded me that the Stryper logo always had Isaiah 53:5 on it.
(https://i.imgur.com/IkcRJ.jpg)
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You can call it my heathen bias, but that last sentence (and it appears in various forms throughout Matthew) sends a shitloads of alarm bells ringing.
In the sense that that sentence is the perfect answer to a doubter's question "If Jesus is the Messiah, why have I never even heard of him?"
The answer: "He told the inner circle he is the Messiah, but also instructed us to not tell anyone else. But I'm letting you into the secret."
It makes zero sense, but it acts as a stopgap explanation to get rid of the inconvenient fact that the supposed Messiah had almost zero impact during his lifetime.
rumborak
Jesus was very secretive at some points in his ministry. He would heal people and tell them not to tell anyone else. His command in this passage to remain silent about his being the Messiah is probably along the same lines.
That's really the same thing, right?
Potential convert: "If Jesus is the Messiah, how come I have never heard of all the miracles you speak of?"
Converter: "Well, he performed them, but also instructed the observers not to tell anyone, that's why."
The fact that he gospels write down clearly what Jesus had supposedly told to not reveal to anybody else, is an irony I guess was lost in the fray.
rumborak
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But we have heard of him because it's all written down in multiple gospels. It was just "in those days" to quote luke that he instructed silence.
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The fact that he gospels write down clearly what Jesus had supposedly told to not reveal to anybody else, is an irony I guess was lost in the fray.
Eh, not really. Your point might hold up if not for at least two counterpoints:
1. There were only a few instances, mostly relatively early in Jesus' ministry, where he told people not to speak of what was done. The gospels record plenty of other instances where he did what he did VERY publicly.
2. Often, even when Jesus told people not to speak of what was done, the gospels record that they did the opposite and went around telling what Jesus did.
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Why are you in any way different from the people in Jesus' time who he didn't want to hear about his miracles?
And, why is it suddenly ok to disobey Jesus' commands?
rumborak
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Why are you in any way different from the people in Jesus' time who he didn't want to hear about his miracles?
And, why is it suddenly ok to disobey Jesus' commands?
rumborak
You are missing the point. You tried to argue that Jesus telling people not to speak of his miracles was somehow a convenient dodge and somehow showed that he apparently did everything in secret. My point is that you are reading something into the text that simply isn't there. Most of what he did was commonly known, either because he did it very publicly or because, in those few instances (again, the point you seem to be missing) where it wasn't public, people went around talking about it anyway. The gospels do not even for a moment suppose that what Jesus did and taught was private and that nobody knew about it. They do not profess to contain a lot of "secret knowledge" that nobody but a select few knew about. They mostly tell of very public occurrences.
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You are dodging the question why Jesus would tell them to not tell others of miracles or that he is the Messiah.
But, I might also be out of this discussion. There's literally zero common ground between you and me, bosk. You're already starting your "you say there's something in the text that isn't" routine.
rumborak
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You are dodging the question why Jesus would tell them to not tell others of miracles or that he is the Messiah.
But, I might also be out of this discussion. There's literally zero common ground between you and me, bosk. You're already starting your "you say there's something in the text that isn't" routine.
rumborak
Well, you certainly do not have to continue discussing if you don't want to, but I think it is both a legitimate point you brought up, and a legitimate counterpoint that I raised. You are right that Jesus' command to tell no one when her performed certain miracles would seem suspicious in isolation. However, put that in context of a few other points:
1. By my count (and please correct me if I am missing some), there are a total of nine times recorded in the gospels where Jesus tells his disciples or the subject of certain miracles to keep silent about something. When you compare, some of those are duplicate descriptions of the same event in different gospels. It appears there are only four or five separate events where he did this (at least, as far as we have recorded--he may very well have said it plenty of other times as well).
2. Of those five times, it is recorded in connection with at least two if those five that people went out and proclaimed what he had said despite his instrutions.
3. There are FAR more than five events recorded where he either (1) specifically told people to go out and tell others what Jesus had done (e.g. Mark 5:19), or (2) did not say either way, but people went and told, or (3) did what he did in very public settings in front of large crowds.
So what I am saying is that while you are correct that there are a handful of instances where Jesus told people to remain silent, that only happened in a small minority of instances, so it is incorrect to argue that Jesus always (or even mostly) told people not to tell about what he was doing. It was only a few isolated instances where, whatever his motivation to not have people go and talk about it, it was limited to specific circumstances.
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By my count (and please correct me if I am missing some), there are a total of nine times recorded in the gospels where Jesus tells his disciples or the subject of certain miracles to keep silent about something. When you compare, some of those are duplicate descriptions of the same event in different gospels. It appears there are only four or five separate events where he did this (at least, as far as we have recorded--he may very well have said it plenty of other times as well).
Correct me if I'm wrong, bosky (and I certainly may be), but aren't all or most of those in Mark?
And to the OP: that passage later had great meaning for the earlier Christians who saw in it a type of Jesus, and that later morphed into this being a Messianic prophecy, but I find that to be a misinterpretation. I think that all of the "Suffering Servant" songs of Isaiah are talking about Israel itself as being the servant of the Lord among the nations. This was the classical Jewish interpretation, and it doesn't seem to be a Messianic prophecy at all. Of course, if you interpret it as being about Jesus, I'm not sure what you do with verse 10:
"Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the Lord makes his life an offering for sin,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand."
Jesus had no offspring. Unless you believe in all that Dan Brown/Holy Blood, Holy Grail crap.