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Dream Theater => Dream Theater => Topic started by: Frost134 on May 18, 2012, 09:23:18 AM
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I have a new found appreciation for how good the album actually is. I feel like a lot of the hate on it is unwarranted. Aside from the lackluster production and Dominici's vocals (which aren't that bad in most cases), the album is pretty good.
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I agree. Its what got me into DT in the first place. I love the songs and CD's vocals dont bother me at all in fact some of the songs I think his voice suits more than JLB.
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I had a similar realization a couple of weeks ago, but just from listening to the REunite album. It really is a good, energetic album, with some fun stuff throughout. It's still on the bottom of my list of DT albums, but I appreciate it more.
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WDARU made me realize that the problems with WDADU go well beyond just the production or the vocalist. A couple of decent songs aside, most of that album just isn't good.
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Oh, I'd say it is more than just pretty good; it is really good! Despite being a little rough around the edges at times, their songwriting abilities, from writing riffs and melodies to arrangements, were already really good, and the level of musicianship the four were showing at such a young age was impressive, to say the least. The album's main flaws - the production/sound and a vocalist that isn't JLB - are obvious, but that doesn't take away from what an impressive debut it really was! :tup :tup
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^ Agreed! I love WDADU for what it is.
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Oh, I'd say it is more than just pretty good; it is really good! Despite being a little rough around the edges at times, their songwriting abilities, from writing riffs and melodies to arrangements, were already really good, and the level of musicianship the four were showing at such a young age was impressive, to say the least. The album's main flaws - the production/sound and a vocalist that isn't JLB - are obvious, but that doesn't take away from what an impressive debut it really was! :tup :tup
I'm somewhere in the middle. I agree with everything you said. It is very good, and it is impressive, espeically as a debut album. But as with most debut albums, it is flawed, and it is obvious the band were still finding themselves. As such, it is (and probably always will be) my least favorite DT album. But still a good album? Yup. And I have to admit, I never gave it the credit due or even really paid attention to it until WDADRU.
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I don't know if anyone actually 'hates' on it, though. I haven't spoken to many people who don't like it. It's a good album, but it doesn't quite measure up to the rest of their discography.
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I like it. I rarely listen to it, mostly because the production is really, really distracting, but musically it's pretty incredible for a debut album.
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I like it. I rarely listen to it, mostly because the production is really, really distracting, but musically it's pretty incredible for a debut album.
This. I like the album a lot...love the music......the beginning of 'The Ones Who Help to Set the Sun' is one of my Favorite DT intro's.....it's the sub par production that keeps it out of my 'regular' rotation. 'Afterlife' on SCORE is incredible and shows what that song 'should' have sounded like. Actually I guess WDADRU demonstrates what those songs 'should' have sounded like.
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I've always really dug WDADU. I've listened to enough punk rock that poor production doesn't really ruin good music for me. I just always figured that was the best they could do with the budget they had at the time. No biggie. The tunes all kick ass and the playing is phenomenal. The thing that bugged me the most about it was how stupid they all look in their photo on the back. I love Kevin's facial expression and hair though, he looks like a caveman.
Also- I was at the WDADRU gig! ;D When Mike announced at the start of the second set that they were going to do WDADU in full it was a bonerrifc moment for me for sure.
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I don't think the songwriting was ever a major issue. At least not with most people. The production was an issue. WDADRU was better produced, so yeah there ya go.
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The songs from WDADU are easily my least favorite out of DT's catalog. They are amateur and unprofessional, IMO.
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I love WDADRu! In fact, I consider THAT my #4 DT album.
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Even with bad production and Charlie on the vocal I rank them bottom of the my list. Though I love many vocals by Charlie, especially A Fortune In Lies is great. The only song that suffers absence of James' vocal is The Killing Hand. Others are just fine how they are.
But I feel, if this album had had great production and James on vocal I would have ranked it in the top, at least in top 3. I like lyrics, musics and arrangements. It's a classic album for sure.
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I really love the debut album.
From the first listen it immediately clicked and I was so impressed by how much they pushed themselves. Definitely one of my favorites.
And it was recorded 20 minutes away from my house, so it has that bit of sentimental value going for it too.
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The only song that suffers existence of James' vocal is The Killing Hand. Others are just fine how they are.
Really? I LOVE James' voice on that song.
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The only song that suffers existence of James' vocal is The Killing Hand. Others are just fine how they are.
Really? I LOVE James' voice on that song.
OH GOD! Silly of me, sorry. :facepalm: I mean absence of James' vocal. I fixed it and let's pretend you never read my post. :sadpanda:
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I was going to say, The Killing Hand is the only song from WDaDU on which I actually prefer James on vocals. Don't get me wrong, James is clearly the more talented vocalist, but on that first album I think it just suits Charlie better, which is odd consider he himself complains about much of it not being in his range. :lol
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Oh, I'd say it is more than just pretty good; it is really good! Despite being a little rough around the edges at times, their songwriting abilities, from writing riffs and melodies to arrangements, were already really good, and the level of musicianship the four were showing at such a young age was impressive, to say the least. The album's main flaws - the production/sound and a vocalist that isn't JLB - are obvious, but that doesn't take away from what an impressive debut it really was! :tup :tup
Totally with you Kev. WDaDU is what got me into the band way back in 1989, so it will always hold a special place in my heart, and I will rank it much higher than the vast majority of people (probably 3rd or 4th). Great album (even with the production and CD) that gets slagged too much on this forum, IMO.
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FTR, it's probably 4th or 5th for me.
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It's an amazing album in it's own right, and I definitely rank it in the top half of their discography. Production aside, I actually like the "immaturity" of the song writing; the band had so much passion for their music back when they were that young, and they were obviously very happy to be making their first real album. While a bit of compositional maturity certainly helped them on I&W, Awake and Scenes, they also lost a lot of their enthusiasm and spontaneity, and starting with 6DOIT, their albums gradually became more and more sterile and clinical, until the line-up change necessitated by MP's departure and the subsequent shift in the internal creativity of the band rejuvenated their musicality a bit. Overall, I absolutely love the album for what it is; a snapshot of the band in their most immature, and therefore most creatively fertile and energetic, form.
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My third favorite Album by DT. I fell in love with AFIL and Status Seeker right off the bat, but now my favorites are LFAGA (So delicious prog) and TOWHTSTS (SO DELICIOUS PROG METAL). I love Charlie as a singer and really enjoy what he brought to the band.
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I love the uniqueness of their compositional style on WDADU. Top 5 album for me.
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WDARU made me realize that the problems with WDADU go well beyond just the production or the vocalist. A couple of decent songs aside, most of that album just isn't good.
Like the ridiculous vocal acrobatics. The phrasing on that record is really awesome, but impossible for anyone to sing. Light Fuse and Get Away? C'mon.
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Like the ridiculous vocal acrobatics. The phrasing on that record is really awesome, but impossible for anyone to sing. Light Fuse and Get Away? C'mon.
That's an issue with early DT in general. The Majesty Demos, UDADU, I&W, and Awake all have very impractical vocal parts on many tracks, I suspect because the band wrote many of those songs (except on Awake) without a singer actually in the band to tell them while they were writing the songs that they were nuts. They cut back on that after Awake because of James' food poisoning incident, but up until then, they were writing some pretty insane vocal lines that would challenge any singer.
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really enjoy WDADR, but i'll take the Live at the Marquee performances (studio vocals or not) over them any day, especially "The Killing Hand" (which really benefits from having "Another Hand" in front of it, imo).
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I was going to say, The Killing Hand is the only song from WDaDU on which I actually prefer James on vocals. Don't get me wrong, James is clearly the more talented vocalist, but on that first album I think it just suits Charlie better, which is odd consider he himself complains about much of it not being in his range. :lol
I think the reason that the songs suit Charlie more is because the vocal melodies were all him, sure the instrumental stuff was written and the melodies were composed by Charlie to compliment that, but I'm sure James' interpretation would've been different and it probably would've suited more his style and therefore James' vocals would probably be a better with the music if he was around for this album.
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I kind of have an odd relationship with WDADU. I consider it my least favorite DT album, but whenever I actually listen to it, I love it to pieces. I think part of it is just that for me, James Labrie (love him or hate him) is a very important part of Dream Theater, and therefore WDADU doesn't feel like Dream Theater to me at all. It's not that I find the album bad, because I don't. I just consider it a fun album made by a bunch of kids before they found their correct vocalist and became the band they were meant to be. No matter how hard I try, I have a tough time considering it to be a proper DT album.
So I have this issue where when I'm ranking DT albums, WDADU pretty much slips my mind entirely. But when I do listen to it, I have a hard time figuring out why I don't listen to it more.
That being said, I think I actually prefer WDADU to WDADRU. Maybe if they did a proper remake, a polished studio album with JLB on vocals, it would be different. But just having heard the live version... I don't know. Don't get me wrong, I consider JLB to be the superior vocalist, but CD's vocals suit most of the songs better, in my opinion. Especially on Afterlife. I honestly find it difficult to listen to the WDADRU version of Afterlife.
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I ONLY listen to WDADR for WDADU. JLB's voice makes it good (plus I LOVE Rectifier guitar tones), so it is a win for me. My friend also enjoys WDADR better, citing many things already said about WDADU.
That said, the songwriting was a little rough yes. But there still some great moments.
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I ONLY listen to WDADR for WDADU. JLB's voice makes it good
Same here. The production doesn't bother me on the original album. I just can't get behind Charlie's voice; I don't feel like I'm listening to Dream Theater, but in actuality, Majesty.
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I'm not a fan of LaBrie's singing on WDADRU, therefore I rather listen to the original versions.
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Oh, I'd say it is more than just pretty good; it is really good! Despite being a little rough around the edges at times, their songwriting abilities, from writing riffs and melodies to arrangements, were already really good, and the level of musicianship the four were showing at such a young age was impressive, to say the least. The album's main flaws - the production/sound and a vocalist that isn't JLB - are obvious, but that doesn't take away from what an impressive debut it really was! :tup :tup
Totally with you Kev. WDaDU is what got me into the band way back in 1989, so it will always hold a special place in my heart, and I will rank it much higher than the vast majority of people (probably 3rd or 4th). Great album (even with the production and CD) that gets slagged too much on this forum, IMO.
My thoughts exactly. It blew me away at the time and I love it still. I like it's niaivity and the strange arrangements and songwriting. Many have criticised the "formulaic" approach of recent DT songwriting- well, this is the antidote.
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WDADU is arangementally insane, I love it. Infact, I'll listen to it now.
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That being said, I think I actually prefer WDADU to WDADRU. Maybe if they did a proper remake, a polished studio album with JLB on vocals, it would be different. But just having heard the live version... I don't know. Don't get me wrong, I consider JLB to be the superior vocalist, but CD's vocals suit most of the songs better, in my opinion. Especially on Afterlife. I honestly find it difficult to listen to the WDADRU version of Afterlife.
I sort of see what you are saying, but my beef with WDADRU is JR overplaying some of the keyboard parts, which takes away from the melodic nature of them. I get him wanting to put his own spin on them, but Moore's original parts were so perfect that I just hate seeing them messed with at all.
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That being said, I think I actually prefer WDADU to WDADRU. Maybe if they did a proper remake, a polished studio album with JLB on vocals, it would be different. But just having heard the live version... I don't know. Don't get me wrong, I consider JLB to be the superior vocalist, but CD's vocals suit most of the songs better, in my opinion. Especially on Afterlife. I honestly find it difficult to listen to the WDADRU version of Afterlife.
I sort of see what you are saying, but my beef with WDADRU is JR overplaying some of the keyboard parts, which takes away from the melodic nature of them. I get him wanting to put his own spin on them, but Moore's original parts were so perfect that I just hate seeing them messed with at all.
Do you have the same beef with the IAW 15th Anniversary show from Bonn, Germany?
-Marc.
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I don't think I've ever heard or seen that performance.
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I don't think I've ever heard or seen that performance.
It was released through the DTIFC a couple years ago, and it's a great sounding show too, but if you're not a fan of "Surrounded '07", then you probably won't like the show as it includes THAT version of the song, although I enjoy having a different version than the 2 featured on CIM's video and audio releases. However, in 2007, JLB did since the "pensive fear" verse for "Take The Time" during the 15th Anniversary performances, so at least TTT is the complete performance on that release.
-Marc.
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I'll stick with the original version of I&W, thank you. :biggrin:
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WDADU is my 4th favourite DT album. I've seen some songs from WDADR, and I don't really care for James's vocals in Light Fuse and Get Away. Other songs had better. I prefer Dominici on those songs, except Another Hand/The Killing Hand on Live at the Marquee. For pretty same reasons than Paul Di'anno/Phantom of the Opera < Bruce Dickinson/Phantom of the Opera/Live After Death.
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WD&DU is an overlooked gem - it IS immature at times, but they were already very talented for their age and LF&GA is the only song I'm not keen on. I'd take the youthful energy of WD&DU over the uninspired SC any day.
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The songs from WDADU are easily my least favorite out of DT's catalog. They are amateur and unprofessional, IMO.
I agree. And it goes well beyond just the vocals and production. In fact, I was surprised when I first listened to the album because they're not *that* bad. I mean, they're not what I would call good, but they wouldn't be a deal breaker if the songs were great.
But the songwriting is amateur, which is totally understandable considering their age. The vocal melodies show poor phrasing throughout (and not just in OAMOT, which is obviously the weakest in that regard), a lot of the parts don't fit together that well (just listen to the Score version of Afterlife and hear how much that bassline completely clashes with the main riff in places), and they weren't natural with their use of time sigs and tempo changes as they were on IaW.
That's not to say the album is a complete loss; Afterlife is overall a pretty good song even as is on the album, Ytse Jam works really well, and AFIL and TKH are redeemable with JLB on the mic, but the rest are a little embarrassing.
The difference in quality between WDADU and IaW is night and day. What a transformation in songwriting ability in the few years between the two. For me WDADU will always be considered a demo, in the same category as the Majesty demos. There are some neat ideas, and in retrospect you can hear hints of what was to come, but it has many more misses than hits.
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I still prefer the original WDADU to WDADR, i like CD's voice more in these songs and also i dig the production. It is raw and the bass is amazing.
To be honest i don't like WDADR, there is something about James' voice in these songs that feels strange, and there is no breathing space between the instruments.
I'm obviously one of the few that like the original better, but i feel it is a great album and Charlie does a good job with the vocal lines he was given.
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I can't listen to this album. It's bad. I think the blame lies more with the vocal melodies, not the delivery or production, which I believe Charlie wrote? It doesn't have Petrucci's sense of melody.
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Great album, though I rarely listen to it. The second half of the album is pure genius, from TKH on. I'm not too keen on the tracks before, but still, it's incredible for a debut. I'd probably rank it somewhere on par with BC&SL, above SC and 8VM. Maybe on par with ADTOE, though I'm not too sure on that one.
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That being said, I think I actually prefer WDADU to WDADRU. Maybe if they did a proper remake, a polished studio album with JLB on vocals, it would be different. But just having heard the live version... I don't know. Don't get me wrong, I consider JLB to be the superior vocalist, but CD's vocals suit most of the songs better, in my opinion. Especially on Afterlife. I honestly find it difficult to listen to the WDADRU version of Afterlife.
I sort of see what you are saying, but my beef with WDADRU is JR overplaying some of the keyboard parts, which takes away from the melodic nature of them. I get him wanting to put his own spin on them, but Moore's original parts were so perfect that I just hate seeing them messed with at all.
Do you have the same beef with the IAW 15th Anniversary show from Bonn, Germany?
-Marc.
Take the Time solo! My favourite keyboard solo ever, so I don't like it when he messes around with it (which he seems to do all the time recently) It's the only thing I don't like about Jordan :lol There's a vid on YT of his show with the band in '94 after Kevin left, where he absolutely nails the solo, so at least I have that ;D
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What a transformation in songwriting ability in the few years between the two.
Seriously.
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"Pensive fear"? which part of the song is that?
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"Pensive fear"? which part of the song is that?
Take The Time.
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I've seen DT 5 times (6th coming up :metal), and own all of their lps (cds for you youngsters) but have never considered this one for some reason. I've heard of few of the songs off this lp by the current line up of course but never have been inclined to by this one.
My top 5
1. ADTOE
2. 6DOIT
3. Awake
4. BCSL
5. Scenes
Yep, that's right I like ADTOE best. I enjoy each lp but it really comes down to song by song for me. I think most DT lps have at least 2 excellent songs, several pretty damn good ones and a couple that I usually pass by, but ADTOE has the 'most' excellent to pretty damn good songs of any lp of their's followed closely by 6doit and Awake (1st one I ever got).
My top 10 DT songs in no particular order and at the top of my head at this point in time:
bridges in the sky, change of seasons, hells kitchen, octavarium, 6doit (the suite), learning to live, strange deja vu, the mirror, ITPOE1, sacrificed sons.
Highly anticipating being in 3rd row at the State Theater, Mpls Jun 27!
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It's an amazing album in it's own right, and I definitely rank it in the top half of their discography. Production aside, I actually like the "immaturity" of the song writing; the band had so much passion for their music back when they were that young, and they were obviously very happy to be making their first real album. While a bit of compositional maturity certainly helped them on I&W, Awake and Scenes, they also lost a lot of their enthusiasm and spontaneity, and starting with 6DOIT, their albums gradually became more and more sterile and clinical, until the line-up change necessitated by MP's departure and the subsequent shift in the internal creativity of the band rejuvenated their musicality a bit. Overall, I absolutely love the album for what it is; a snapshot of the band in their most immature, and therefore most creatively fertile and energetic, form.
This, almost exactly.
I can't conjure up much enthusiasm for most of DT's discography after SfaM, excepting Octavarium and ADToE; WDaDU floors me with the sheer exuberance conveyed in each song. It doesn't outrank the subsequent four albums for me, but it's easy to see how they follow it.
I rank it with In the Court of the Crimson King, The Light, Kansas, Ecliptica, and Iron Maiden as one of the best debuts I've heard. It's not as good as any of those, but like them, it's among the best in its band's catalog and far from a misstep. I wouldn't have minded it one bit as an intro to Dream Theater... Though SfaM was a more than suitable one for me.
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I can certainly understand how people hearing the album for the first time years later than release would struggle with it a bit. At the time I'd never heard anything like it. I loved Rush, Maiden, Yngwie and the shredders, and this album married all that together.
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I can certainly understand how people hearing the album for the first time years later than release would struggle with it a bit. At the time I'd never heard anything like it. I loved Rush, Maiden, Yngwie and the shredders, and this album married all that together.
For the record, I'd never even heard of DT till 2005, when a friend annoyed me into buying SfaM. First heard WDaDU in 2008ish and never struggled with it. I like it to this day.
Good music is good music. It'd be a shame for someone not to enjoy it simply because they heard it a few years after its release.
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It's an amazing album in it's own right, and I definitely rank it in the top half of their discography. Production aside, I actually like the "immaturity" of the song writing; the band had so much passion for their music back when they were that young, and they were obviously very happy to be making their first real album. While a bit of compositional maturity certainly helped them on I&W, Awake and Scenes, they also lost a lot of their enthusiasm and spontaneity, and starting with 6DOIT, their albums gradually became more and more sterile and clinical, until the line-up change necessitated by MP's departure and the subsequent shift in the internal creativity of the band rejuvenated their musicality a bit. Overall, I absolutely love the album for what it is; a snapshot of the band in their most immature, and therefore most creatively fertile and energetic, form.
This, almost exactly.
Yep.
And to expand on that a little bit, most bands (see: not all) write and produce their best music early in their careers, simply because musicians almost always produce their best music when they feel they have something to prove, and I think it goes without saying that every musician in the world feels like they have something to prove when making their first record. Factor in the youthful, raw energy plus years of creative juices coming to fruition on a single album, and it is not hard to see why so many debut albums are so good, including Dream Theater's.
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The funny thing is that, songwriting-wise, it has just as many classics on it and just as many debatable songs as their newer (or, at least later stuff). For example, I think most people would agree that Fortune in Lies, Ytse Jam and Killing Hand (and, arguably Afterlife) are DT classics. That's three (four if you count Afterlife) songs from the album. Nearly half the album. Out of the remaining songs:
Status Seeker - I personally like it and I see more apathy toward it than hatred. For most, "it's okay."
Light Fuse and Get Away - good ideas, badly executed. General negative feeling toward the song from most fans, from what I observe.
Ones Who Help to Set the Sun - I love this song. Generally mixed from most, I think.
Only a Matter of Time - Eh, indifferent. It kind of drags on and on and never goes anywhere, in my opinion. Generally positive feelings from most fans, I think, but poor vocal phrasing brings it down.
I think if I did this with Train of Thought, there would be A LOT more negativity. At least on my end. LOL .... I'd rather hear better songs with a more average singer and bad production with a few rough spots in the songwriting than a polished album of rushed songwriting that doesn't really go anywhere at all and won't even be remembered by most fans in ten years.
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I think if I did this with Train of Thought, there would be A LOT more negativity. At least on my end. LOL .... I'd rather hear better songs with a more average singer and bad production with a few rough spots in the songwriting than a polished album of rushed songwriting that doesn't really go anywhere at all and won't even be remembered by most fans in ten years.
LOL. ToT is still remembered and liked just as well as ever, meanwhile WDADU is already largely ignored or forgotten by many fans.
In the case of WDADU, "classic" just means early, not necessarily good. Ytse Jam is cool, but the rest are just far too flawed to ever be ranked as unquestionable classics like other older songs like Metropolis/LTL/TTT, which consistently rank very high with most DT fans. I can't say the same for anything from WDADU.
Songwriting-wise, WDADU is just by far their weakest album imo. The best songs are only decent at best, and the worst songs are literally unlistenable to me. I'm talking so bad that it makes never Enough sound like UAGM by comparison. :lol So for me it's half awful, and half ok.
ToT has nothing even close to that bad. The first 4 tracks have very mixed opinions, but a lot of fans love them, and the last 3 tracks are regarded quite highly overall. Nothing on the album comes close to the overwhelmingly negative opinions of several songs on WDADU.
As much as some people would love to explain WDADU's poor reputation entirely away by the raw production, or the less than stellar vocals, that's just wishful thinking for the most part, and insulting to all the fans who gave it a fair chance, and just think it's a weak album. Even with the songs existing in other forms such as WDADRU, or LATM, I don't see fans going nuts for it.
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The difference in quality between WDADU and IaW is night and day.
This, definitely.
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As much as some people would love to explain WDADU's poor reputation entirely away by the raw production, or the less than stellar vocals, that's just wishful thinking for the most part, and insulting to all the fans who gave it a fair chance, and just think it's a weak album. Even with the songs existing in other forms such as WDADRU, or LATM, I don't see fans going nuts for it.
Eh, I think you are seeing what you want to see. The live version of The Killing Hand from LATM has always been loved by a lot of fans, and Only a Matter of Time got tons of positive feedback when it was included on the Budokan DVD. Those are two examples.
Besides, whenever heavy criticism has been directed at songs like The Dark Eternal Night and Constant Motion, you have always been adamant that the fans on message boards only represent a tiny portion of the fanbase, so the overall opinions should never be considered as definitive when it comes to the fans' overall opinions of Dream Theater albums and songs, right? So, if you really are seeing that fans don't go nuts over it here, then it doesn't matter since this is only a tiny portion of the fanbase and it doesn't really say anything anyway, right? :P
Also, I looked at RYM to see what the album rankings were from each DT album. WDADU does sit at the bottom with a rating of 3.02, but the live WDADR has a rating of 3.44, which puts it higher than the last four albums (including ADTOE), so see, improve the vocals and the sound (the live sound is usually not better, but in the case of WDADU's weak production, the live sound in this case is better), and the rating suddenly goes up .42. Kind of blows a hole in your theory that fans as a whole dislike it for more than just the vocals and production, no? :)
And before you dismiss RYM, or say that it just one site's ratings opinion, the jump at Prog Archives from WDADU to WDADR is even more significant (3.23 to 4.13), so I think we are seeing that fans as a whole do seem to like WDADU, especially once the sound and vocals are much improved. We can even give a sliver of credit to your favorite musician ever, Jordan Rudess, if you want ;), since him being on the live versions and Kevin Moore playing on the original, is really the only other significant difference.
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TKH is a song that always had the potential, and for me it's biggest drawback was always just the vocal melodies, especially the outro (and I'm not just talking Charlie's weak and laughable vocals). TKH from Marquee deserves to get a bit more love because JLB's powerful vocals and changes to melodies really redeem that one real weakness of that song.
TKH is one of my favourites on WDADU, but only the Marquee version due to the fixed melodies, but that song has always been clearly one of the better songs from WDADU anyway. It is due to swapping vocalists, but there's also a lot more to it than simply swapping A for B and repeating.
And when I say fans don't go nuts for it, I'm certainly not talking just here. I mean... everywhere. None of the DT fans I know in real life give the slightest care for WDADU, it's a small group here, and RYM as you've pointed out supports that too. It's a minority no matter which way you wanna slice it as far as I can see. Meanwhile, I know a lot of people who love SC, and the crowds clearly love SC/TDEN. So I actually wasn't factoring in DTF's opinion at all here. ;)
And let's keep in mind that WDADRU includes two extra songs that weren't on WDADU, including what is arguably their most popular song among fans, and one of their most played live songs, Metropolis. Plus there's the big jam section with DS/JR in the middle. It's not WDADU + JLB. It's WDADU + JLB + highly popular song from IaW in badass fresh arrangement + song from Awake.
And as you're always so quick to point out, JR completely changes a lot of those keyboard section, plus JLB changes melodies, plus there are several changed or additional sections to the WDADU songs. Pretty careless to try and apply a direct A/B comparison here. ;)
I have no doubt that the production and vocals are a barrier for some people, and I won't argue that it probably is a factor of why it gets a higher rating. But there is still a hell of a lot more wrong with WDADU than the production and vocals. You've raised valid points, but you're also ignoring several others factors in all cases to suit your own point.
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Well, most of the DT fans I know in real life think WDADU is quite good (albeit not nearly as good as I&W, FII, Scenes and 6DOIT, and ADTOE for a few of us), and better than most of their post-6DOIT albums, so we could go round and round with this all day. :biggrin:
Yes, WDADR does have two songs that aren't a part of the original WDADU, but it is still a pretty valid comparison. If most thought WDADU was crap, they aren't gonna give a high rating to WDADR, regardless of how much ass To Live Forever and Metropolis with CD and DS kicked.
Honestly, I think longtime fans are much more likely to like it than fans have got into the band in the later years. It's some type of psychology thing about fans always wanting the new stuff that came out when they became a fan to be the best or their favorite or whatever. Kind of like the tons of guys I worked with in the 90s who all got into Metallica in the 90s, most of whom thought The Black Album and Load were their best albums, because, ya know, those were the newest albums when they became fans. It happens all of the time. It has happened to me, too, so I am not immune to it. Something about us always wants the new albums by bands we just got into to be the best ones. That is not meant to say that newer fans are incapable of objectively judging (as much as one can) the old stuff, just that there is a line of thinking in all of us that wants the albums that were new at the time when we got into the band to be the best.
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LOL. ToT is still remembered and liked just as well as ever, meanwhile WDADU is already largely ignored or forgotten by many fans.
That's not a fair thing to say, though. By the time Train of Thought came out, DT was already well established and had produced a bunch of albums that were already being compared to WDADU. I'd say that forums like this one give new fans (and, even old fans who never really checked out WDADU) a negative feeling toward it and that thing kind of sticks. When you go to a forum and a bunch of people are saying, "that album sucks," you're going to get that stuck in your head and have a bad opinion of it before you even give it a chance.
I have been listening to DT since 1992, first heard WDADU around 1996 or 1997 and bought Train of Thought when it first came out in 2003. I'll only speak for myself here: I think WDADU is a FAR better album, songwriting-wise than ToT and has held up way better. WDADU was a band making sincere, genuine music. Flawed, yes, but genuine. ToT, on the other hand, was the beginning of "poser-DT" -- i.e., DT trying to be all "heavy" and "tough." I think As I am and Honor thy Father are terrible songs and that most of the songs on WDADU are better than those two alone. And, I think Ytse Jam is a WAY better instrumental than SoC.
In the case of WDADU, "classic" just means early, not necessarily good. Ytse Jam is cool, but the rest are just far too flawed to ever be ranked as unquestionable classics like other older songs like Metropolis/LTL/TTT, which consistently rank very high with most DT fans. I can't say the same for anything from WDADU.
So, "classic" only means "early, not necessarily good" in the case of DT? LOL
And, I wasn't comparing WDADU to Images, I was comparing it to newer DT music, hence why I brought up Train of Thought. I think WDADU sounds pretty similar to Images, so there's no use "comparing" it. The only difference is the production, the singing (which is the same style, just better with James) and more polished arrangements. Stylistically, it's pretty much exactly the same.
Songwriting-wise, WDADU is just by far their weakest album imo.
That's fine, that's your opinion. I personally think ToT and SC are the weakest albums in that area.
The best songs are only decent at best, and the worst songs are literally unlistenable to me. I'm talking so bad that it makes never Enough sound like UAGM by comparison. :lol So for me it's half awful, and half ok.
Really? You don't think Fortune in Lies and Afterlife are just completely, ridiculously awesome? I do....
As much as some people would love to explain WDADU's poor reputation entirely away by the raw production, or the less than stellar vocals, that's just wishful thinking for the most part, and insulting to all the fans who gave it a fair chance, and just think it's a weak album. Even with the songs existing in other forms such as WDADRU, or LATM, I don't see fans going nuts for it.
I'm not trying to explain its poor reputation with those things. I'm saying that people who don't like the album give it a bad name and people who know it's kind of the bastard of the band's albums pretty much don't give it the chance that it deserves. I honestly think that if WDADU came out now, in 2012 and had James singing on it with better production and some tweaking in the songwriting/ arrangement, it wouldn't be NEARLY as criticized. That's kind of my point.
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Songwriting-wise, WDADU is just by far their weakest album imo. The best songs are only decent at best, and the worst songs are literally unlistenable to me. I'm talking so bad that it makes never Enough sound like UAGM by comparison. :lol So for me it's half awful, and half ok.
Replace WDADU with SC and you have my opinion :lol Well, the worst songs on SC aren't completely unlistenable for me but I hardly ever have the desire to listen to them and I think they're some of the worst DT stuff ever, whereas I could listen to Status Seeker and TOWHTSTS any time and enjoy them - two very underrated songs. But as always, opinions vary etc...
I honestly think that if WDADU came out now, in 2012 and had James singing on it with better production and some tweaking in the songwriting/ arrangement, it wouldn't be NEARLY as criticized. That's kind of my point.
I agree on this - if WD&DU was released today as a modern studio version or if it had been the breakthrough album that I&W ended up being, it would be held in higher regard.
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Yes, WDADR does have two songs that aren't a part of the original WDADU, but it is still a pretty valid comparison. If most thought WDADU was crap, they aren't gonna give a high rating to WDADR, regardless of how much ass To Live Forever and Metropolis with CD and DS kicked.
Honestly, I think longtime fans are much more likely to like it than fans have got into the band in the later years. It's some type of psychology thing about fans always wanting the new stuff that came out when they became a fan to be the best or their favorite or whatever. Kind of like the tons of guys I worked with in the 90s who all got into Metallica in the 90s, most of whom thought The Black Album and Load were their best albums, because, ya know, those were the newest albums when they became fans. It happens all of the time. It has happened to me, too, so I am not immune to it. Something about us always wants the new albums by bands we just got into to be the best ones. That is not meant to say that newer fans are incapable of objectively judging (as much as one can) the old stuff, just that there is a line of thinking in all of us that wants the albums that were new at the time when we got into the band to be the best.
I've noticed this phenomenon works both ways. ;) The fact that IaW and Awake still get high praise from fans young and old seems to blow that notion out of the water here though.
I honestly think that if WDADU came out now, in 2012 and had James singing on it with better production and some tweaking in the songwriting/ arrangement, it wouldn't be NEARLY as criticized. That's kind of my point.
I agree on this - if WD&DU was released today as a modern studio version or if it had been the breakthrough album that I&W ended up being, it would be held in higher regard.
Except that WDADU could never have been a breakthrough album, because it just wasn't anywhere near good enough. WDADU doesn't have a PMU, or an Another Day. Even just thinking that to myself, it is astounding that the same band who was writing such flawed music as OAMOT and Light Fuse and Get Away was writing such well crafted songs like Another Day only a couple of years later. Absolutely astounding. Not even the same band to me.
I'm not trying to explain its poor reputation with those things. I'm saying that people who don't like the album give it a bad name and people who know it's kind of the bastard of the band's albums pretty much don't give it the chance that it deserves. I honestly think that if WDADU came out now, in 2012 and had James singing on it with better production and some tweaking in the songwriting/ arrangement, it wouldn't be NEARLY as criticized. That's kind of my point.
Every hear the phrase "you can't polish a turd"? If you want to believe that the album would get more praise if it was recorded nicely, I can't prove otherwise, because it's a speculative case anyway, so we're just arguing opinions. But I believe that under any circumstances, it would still thoroughly earn its spot at the bottom of the barrel.
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Just revisited the WDADRU Official bootleg this morning. Loved that old DT sound, which I'm glad the band brought back in some of ADTOE and DT12. That way DT pulls off the Rush influence is amazing.
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Since someone else resurrected this old thread...
I bought WDaDU after seeing my first DT show in November 1992 and really digging "The Killing Hand" (a performance very similar to what's on Live at the Marquee). I've always been a big fan of TKH and "Only a Matter of Time," and "Ytse Jam" is an incredible instrumental -- especially for a brand new band. The more "commercial" songs ("A Fortune in Lies," "Status Seeker" and "Afterlife") are ok but rather derivative (not surprising for a new band), and I've never been a big fan of LFaGA and TOWHtStS. If WDaDU had been an EP with only YJ, TKH and OaMoT, I'd give it 4.5 stars, but on the whole I'd give it around 3 stars.
As far as WDaDRu, it's kinda cool, but I tend to agree with Blob's assessment that tends to expose the album's shortcomings. I also find WDaDRu more enjoyable for the band commentary than for the set itself (although I do enjoy it when Charlie and Derek come on stage, even though Charlie doesn't sound great).
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It's a fun nostalgic romp and I'm glad it was done, but I'm way more attached to the original album.
Charlie wasn't the right guy for the band, but I think he was the right guy for the album, even if he had trouble getting it done live.
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I need to watch it again. It's been quite awhile. I was at the show, 3rd row just left of center. I remember taking a buddy I work with who I had introduced to DT. He was still really new to DT and we had an idea of what was being played on the tour...then the second half of the show happened.. :lol My buddy was like.. what frikken album is this? I actually felt a lil bad for him not knowing any of that material. For me though I LOVED it! Never expected that to happen, especially the Encores!
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I am a big fan of this release but view it more as a documentary of a band reflecting on and paying homage to a notable period in their history. When I try and view it solely as a concert film, I can't appreciate it nearly as much.
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Its cool. But, I would prefer a remixed, and remastered version of the original. Like the Terry Brown remixes for the Status Seeker and Afterlife singles. Those sound pretty damn good.
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Its cool. But, I would prefer a remixed, and remastered version of the original. Like the Terry Brown remixes for the Status Seeker and Afterlife singles. Those sound pretty damn good.
If the original stems even still exist (which I highly doubt) I would pay big bucks just to see it re-EQed from scratch.
Has anyone ever really done that? So many 80s recordings were so “tinny” that it would be interesting to back to the original bass and drum tracks and re-equalize them completely to make them “beefier”...not just a volume increase, but an actual bass level increase to give it a bit more low end.
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Its cool. But, I would prefer a remixed, and remastered version of the original. Like the Terry Brown remixes for the Status Seeker and Afterlife singles. Those sound pretty damn good.
If the original stems even still exist (which I highly doubt) I would pay big bucks just to see it re-EQed from scratch.
Has anyone ever really done that? So many 80s recordings were so “tinny” that it would be interesting to back to the original bass and drum tracks and re-equalize them completely to make them “beefier”...not just a volume increase, but an actual bass level increase to give it a bit more low end.
I have no idea what a "stem" is, but WDADU was probably recorded on 2-inch 24-track tape. If those tapes still exist, it would be little problem to remix them, including bumping the lows and/or highs, adding effects, etc.
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Its cool. But, I would prefer a remixed, and remastered version of the original. Like the Terry Brown remixes for the Status Seeker and Afterlife singles. Those sound pretty damn good.
If the original stems even still exist (which I highly doubt) I would pay big bucks just to see it re-EQed from scratch.
Has anyone ever really done that? So many 80s recordings were so “tinny” that it would be interesting to back to the original bass and drum tracks and re-equalize them completely to make them “beefier”...not just a volume increase, but an actual bass level increase to give it a bit more low end.
I have no idea what a "stem" is, but WDADU was probably recorded on 2-inch 24-track tape. If those tapes still exist, it would be little problem to remix them, including bumping the lows and/or highs, adding effects, etc.
Remember the bonus disc in BCSL that had all the individual parts completely separate so you could do your own mix? I might be using the wrong term, but I thought those were referred to as stems.
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Remember the bonus disc in BCSL that had all the individual parts completely separate so you could do your own mix? I might be using the wrong term, but I thought those were referred to as stems.
Nope. My BC&SL had three discs: one was the album; one was the instrumental tracks (which I guess were for karaoke purposes, but I'm not sure I ever spent much or any time listening to them); and one had the several cover songs.
Like I said, I don't know what the term means, so you may be using it completely correctly.
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The disc Ben's speaking about is actually a DVD that only came with the box set. The stems are indeed nice and I'm sure that if they were released for WDaDU, some improvement could be made. However the stems in reality are all the guitar tracks combined into one track, the vocals combined into another track, etc. To do a proper remix of the album, you'd really need to have the original multi-track recordings.
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Where are the master tapes and what kind of shape are they in?
It's possible nobody even knows where they are. I'd love a massive box set of this album with different takes and different mixes, but I'm likely one of the few that would.
Something like this probably wouldn't sell due to lack of interest.
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Did anyone buyout Mechanic Records?
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Where are the master tapes and what kind of shape are they in?
It's possible nobody even knows where they are. I'd love a massive box set of this album with different takes and different mixes, but I'm likely one of the few that would.
Something like this probably wouldn't sell due to lack of interest.
As I get older(?) I find myself caring less and less about special uber editions unless it's a CD/DVD combo with a live show. I really don't even care about "making of" stuff these days except for movies.
I'm also thinking about dumping all of my special edition DT stuffs with hopes that other collectors will enjoy them now that I'm not really into it.
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Did anyone buyout Mechanic Records?
Mechanic was always a sub-label of MCA Records. I did some Googling, and it's a bit of a mess....but I believe all of MCA got folded into the Universal Media company, which is owned by NBC as near as I can tell? But then it also said that much of the old music division went to Seagrams Company Ltd.
Maybe I didn't read it closely enough, but it's kindof a mess. I would be curious as to where all of Mechanic's holdings went to as well. But I'm sure it went wherever the MCA Music industry ended up.
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Which means the master tapes should be in storage somewhere.
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Actually, I went back and looked at my WDADU remaster and it was released through One Way Records....which was owned by Universal. But according to Wiki, One Way closed in the early 2000's, and there's no info on what ever became of their assets. Probably in the closet of the last owner of the company.
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I wonder if this is a possibility now. From what I understand, Mechanic had no interest in working in Dream Theater once they weren't signed to them and rereleased a ton of substandard versions of WDADU just to capitalize on their popularity. Now that the label has switched hands so much, they may be interested in forking over the tapes for a good remaster, even if they just get a small fee. Now that the music industry is in the state they're in, possibilities like that are much more likely whereas before they were hording anything and everything just to keep some sort of power in their empire.
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I figured if it were cheap enough, some label like Rock Candy (who does remasters of old, sometimes obscure albums) could buy the rights, get the masters and do a remix/remaster. Between die-hards, collectors and older fans who prefer the early stuff, they’re bound to make a profit.
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The next ripple in all this?
According to this website, the Chairman of One Way Records was David H Schlang in Albany NY.
https://www.manta.com/c/mm3sw3q/one-way-records-inc
But according to this, David Schlang of Albany NY passed away Nov 1st 2016.
https://www.legacy.com/obituaries/timesunion-albany/obituary.aspx?n=david-schlang&pid=182316116&fhid=14517
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Regardless, we still don't know where the tapes are or whether they even still exist, even aside from the mess of who actually owns the rights to them.
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Regardless, we still don't know where the tapes are or whether they even still exist, even aside from the mess of who actually owns the rights to them.
Or if, after all this time, the tapes have degraded beyond saving. Most of those masters all have had to be "baked," so that it could be then transferred to a digital format. If the masters are ever found, unless they were transferred long ago, they might be unusable.
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Why go through all of that? It's not like WDADU is a super popular album among the fanbase anyway. And if they wanted to do something with it, they could just re-record the whole thing with the current lineup and release it as a bonus 2nd disc special edition for DT14, celebrating WDADU's 30 years (1989-2019).
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It isn't even worth that much time and effort. Art is a product of its time. WDaDU is an album recorded by some kids in the late 80s, and it sounds exactly like that. for better or worse. Why can't we just leave it at that? Why do we have such a desire to remaster, remix, redo everything more than 5 years old to try and achieve some level of modern-day technical "perfection?"
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I think what they did was perfect with the live release. But I would have no problem if they wanted to rerecord it with a more modern sound. Remix/remaster isn't going to do anything for me.
While the studio album sounds a bit clunky, I'm a huge fan of the songs. WDADRu is one of my favorite things they've done.
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It isn't even worth that much time and effort. Art is a product of its time. WDaDU is an album recorded by some kids in the late 80s, and it sounds exactly like that. for better or worse. Why can't we just leave it at that? Why do we have such a desire to remaster, remix, redo everything more than 5 years old to try and achieve some level of modern-day technical "perfection?"
In most cases, I don't care. It's just that WDADU is so unusually poor *even for its time period*....it's just so far below the bar.
Not all remasters/remixes are worth it (and many of them don't really improve the final product much). But when something is honestly this piss poor in the first place, you'd be amazed what a bit of touch up can do. Honestly, just look at the remix/remaster of Soundgarden's Ultramega OK. I was a huge fan of the original, and if you had asked me before hand, I would have said don't bother. But honestly, the sound quality on the original was so bad, and the remix SO well done, that I have a hard time imagining how I could go back to the original.
Some cases are extreme, and I think WDADU is one of those case.
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It isn't even worth that much time and effort. Art is a product of its time. WDaDU is an album recorded by some kids in the late 80s, and it sounds exactly like that. for better or worse. Why can't we just leave it at that? Why do we have such a desire to remaster, remix, redo everything more than 5 years old to try and achieve some level of modern-day technical "perfection?"
In most cases, I don't care. It's just that WDADU is so unusually poor *even for its time period*....it's just so far below the bar.
Not all remasters/remixes are worth it (and many of them don't really improve the final product much). But when something is honestly this piss poor in the first place, you'd be amazed what a bit of touch up can do. Honestly, just look at the remix/remaster of Soundgarden's Ultramega OK. I was a huge fan of the original, and if you had asked me before hand, I would have said don't bother. But honestly, the sound quality on the original was so bad, and the remix SO well done, that I have a hard time imagining how I could go back to the original.
Some cases are extreme, and I think WDADU is one of those case.
Pretty much all this. Also, it's a great album and deserves to be heard in a decent way.
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Where are the master tapes and what kind of shape are they in?
It's possible nobody even knows where they are. I'd love a massive box set of this album with different takes and different mixes, but I'm likely one of the few that would.
Something like this probably wouldn't sell due to lack of interest.
As I get older(?) I find myself caring less and less about special uber editions unless it's a CD/DVD combo with a live show. I really don't even care about "making of" stuff these days except for movies.
I'm also thinking about dumping all of my special edition DT stuffs with hopes that other collectors will enjoy them now that I'm not really into it.
Depends on the band and the album for me.
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Regardless, we still don't know where the tapes are or whether they even still exist, even aside from the mess of who actually owns the rights to them.
Exactly.
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Why go through all of that? It's not like WDADU is a super popular album among the fanbase anyway. And if they wanted to do something with it, they could just re-record the whole thing with the current lineup and release it as a bonus 2nd disc special edition for DT14, celebrating WDADU's 30 years (1989-2019).
As much as I love the album, there's no need to record this in the studio. the live performance as great for what it was.
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Oh, I could go for a rerecord. Definitely. But yes I do love the live album and it really hits the spot.
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This live album made me want to listen to the original studio album which I had never heard before except for Ytse Jam. I've heard/seen live stuff with Dominci and I never liked him so that's what kept me from ever giving the first album a chance.
I think the songs are good. Dominici sounds ok on the album. LaBrie doesn't sound so great singing the higher stuff on the live album. Too bad they didn't do a full live version back when LaBrie first joined because he sounds great on the live stuff from that time.
Back when I first heard the Reunite album, I was more inclined to listen to that but these days I'd rather listen to the studio version with Dominici.
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About the live version, I really liked it, but I wish they took the oportunity and made also a version of it without the crowd and with studio overdubs, adding instrumentation and replacing some JLB parts, specially on LFaGA.
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Still my personal favorite album from DT. Call me corny, but I don't hear the flaws, I hear a moment in time when the band was just starting to grow into their potential.
WDADU has an energy unlike anything else I've ever heard, and I'll never get tired of it.
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Still my personal favorite album from DT. Call me corny, but I don't hear the flaws, I hear a moment in time when the band was just starting to grow into their potential.
WDADU has an energy unlike anything else I've ever heard, and I'll never get tired of it.
Feel that way too although I can't say have a singular favorite. It's in that top group.