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General => Archive => Political and Religious => Topic started by: Implode on March 27, 2012, 12:21:41 PM
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Yesterday I was thinking about how unworldly the average American is compared to other countries' citizens. We've gotten so bad that the image of the fat, ignorant, and unintelligent person is the stereotype for the residents of the US.
My question is this. How did we get to be like this? I guess you could say it was meant to be like this all along. That's why escaped to North America in the first place, right? So there's also the geographical part of it. People who live in Europe don't have to travel nearly as far to get to a new country. Some countries over there are smaller than states! Finally, how much do you think is political? People in PR are always mentioning how distorted US politics are in regards to left versus right. Is this intentional of the politicians? Or are they as blissfully unaware to the rest of the world as the average American?
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I chalk a lot of it up to arrogance. It would seem that we've been chanting the "greatest nation on Earth" mantra for so long that it's become engrained.
Something else to consider is that when it comes to exploring new places, America has plenty of them to offer. Hell, New York might as well be Kazakhstan compared to Texas.
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There's also the effect that the US was a Super Power all the way through the 20th century. That builds up a certain amount of self-assurance, i.e. "why look at others, when clearly we are the best?".
It is interesting currently to see (especially the conservative) population struggling with the introspection and self-doubt that almost every other country takes for granted.
The UK is btw pretty similar, only 50 years ahead with that process.
rumborak
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Does that mean that the US will be a better place in 50 years?
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It is many, many things. The geography helps, to be sure, as does the arrogance and self-assurance that comes with being a global hegemon. On top of that is the political pedagogy and demagoguery in this country that strongly encourages and even insists on us being the best and looking inward, a rhetoric that says we absolutely should not care about anything or anyone else (Jacksonian foreign policy, it's called). It also has to do with 19th century containment policy of the UK, which allowed us to focus inward while the UK "contained" the conflicts of Continental Europe to reaches far beyond us.
There's also education as we've said many times...there's no limit to the reasons this state of things came to be.
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To some degree I'd imagine the physical seperation from most of the rest of the world causes a lot of it. We simply don't need to know a lot about European or Asian countries or cultures because we're not going to come in contact with them unless we travel. We know a bit about Canada and Mexico because they're close, but beyond that there really isn't a pratical reason for the average person to know more.
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There's also our lack of history, so to speak. America really hasn't been around that long, despite the fact that many new states have come into existence in the time since the U.S.'s founding.
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There's also the effect that the US was a Super Power all the way through the 20th century. That builds up a certain amount of self-assurance, i.e. "why look at others, when clearly we are the best?".
I would suggest that arrogance is self-assurance minus common sense. Our super power status gave us every reason to look within for betterment. At the same time, there are always lessons to be learned from the outside, and ignoring them is foolish. Knowledge for knowledge's sake is a wonderful endeavor.
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There's also our lack of history, so to speak. America really hasn't been around that long, despite the fact that many new states have come into existence in the time since the U.S.'s founding.
yes, I think this could have something to do with it, since the founding of the US the country has been on somewhat of an continuousness rise in power and wealth (it hasn't really been occupied/taken over etc) in comparison with older nations which have seen things go up and down several times. People migrated to the US to start a new, fresh, younger and better nation and are perhaps are a bit too enthusiastic in the process (or at least viewed from the old world).
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Not to mention we've never actually had a regime change, apart from the foundation of the US following independence.
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Because we run this town.
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Not anymore we don't.
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Not anymore we don't.
(https://www.skeptically.org/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/nuclear-weapons-testing.jpg)
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Wow, a chart about nuclear weapons.
I'm sorry, but firepower is not (and most certainly should not be) the only measure of global influence.
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Military might is a Cold War measurement. All the Patriot missiles didn't help against 9/11.
rumborak
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Military might is a Cold War measurement. All the Patriot missiles didn't help against 9/11.
rumborak
The little guys can't really militarily beat us. The big guys have to face the nukes.
What is China going to do? Ask us to pay them back?
We run this town.
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The US is already hamstrung by China, you'd have to be ignorant to not see that. You don't need nuclear weapons to exert control.
rumborak
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The US is already hamstrung by China, you'd have to be ignorant to not see that. You don't need nuclear weapons to exert control.
rumborak
Yes. But, you think a human representation would show up to a human representation of the USA and say "Pay up"? I doubt it, because China couldn't force the USA to pay. Not that they even WANT the USA to pay back the loans.
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There is no forcing necessary. All that China needs to do is move their investments over to Europe or other places. The US dollar would tank like crazy.
Just like in any cold war, it's the possibility that counts. And China's ability to have the US economy tank beyond recovery lets them get away with a lot of stuff.
While the US is certainly still a major player, it no longer "runs the town". That was the case in 1980, not in 2012.
rumborak
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For being so isolated we sure have our dicks all over the world in places is doesn't belong.
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We know a bit about Canada and Mexico
I'd actually say that most Americans tend to be extremely misinformed and terribly uneducated regarding its two closest neighbors.
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Isn't the euro not doing so well, rumby?
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There is no forcing necessary. All that China needs to do is move their investments over to Europe or other places. The US dollar would tank like crazy.
Just like in any cold war, it's the possibility that counts. And China's ability to have the US economy tank beyond recovery lets them get away with a lot of stuff.
While the US is certainly still a major player, it no longer "runs the town". That was the case in 1980, not in 2012.
rumborak
Or to word it more concisely, China has soft power, and it's soft power that really matters in a globalized world.
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Isn't the euro not doing so well, rumby?
Despite it being in a bad shape, I'm pretty sure it's still doing better than the dollar.
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Isn't the euro not doing so well, rumby?
Despite it being in a bad shape, I'm pretty sure it's still doing better than the dollar.
And whaddya know, a quick Google search confirms this assertion. :hat
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Isn't the euro not doing so well, rumby?
Despite it being in a bad shape, I'm pretty sure it's still doing better than the dollar.
What do you mean?
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Isn't the euro not doing so well, rumby?
How is that relevant? I used Europe as a rather random example of where China could move its investments to. There's myriad other places.
rumborak
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Not to mention he didn't specifically state the euro would be tied to the trade; for all you know, Germany's deutschmark could be China's target, and wisely chosen one at that.
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Not to mention we've never actually had a regime change, apart from the foundation of the US following independence.
Revolution of 1800.
There's been numerous times where there's been regime changes in our country, and it's worked through republic/democratic processes.
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Oh, no, I meant in the usual bloody struggle variety. Y'know, revolution, occupation, full-scale invasion, etc. Like the last few weeks I've been learning about pre-PRC China, and we've never had anything even a hair within approaching that.
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Oh, no, I meant in the usual bloody struggle variety. Y'know, revolution, occupation, full-scale invasion, etc. Like the last few weeks I've been learning about pre-PRC China, and we've never had anything even a hair within approaching that.
I'm sure we'd disassociate before regime change like that, at this point.
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The US is already hamstrung by China, you'd have to be ignorant to not see that. You don't need nuclear weapons to exert control.
rumborak
Yes. But, you think a human representation would show up to a human representation of the USA and say "Pay up"? I doubt it, because China couldn't force the USA to pay. Not that they even WANT the USA to pay back the loans.
Rumborak explained this VERY well, but China is really the only purchaser of certain US bonds. If they just stop purchasing it the US economy will collapse.
China wins the game in the long run because of economic growth. You can have all the guns and try to conquer militarily and be impoverished, or you could conquer economically and less vioently and have prosperity.
But even then, "we run this town" is not a sufficient reason for ignorance.
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For being so isolated we sure have our dicks all over the world in places is doesn't belong.
THIS.
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Military might is a Cold War measurement. All the Patriot missiles didn't help against 9/11.
rumborak
The little guys can't really militarily beat us. The big guys have to face the nukes.
What is China going to do? Ask us to pay them back?
We run this town.
This attitude is the reason the US gets so much flack. Just because we have weapons doesn't mean we can do whatever the fuck we want.
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Personally, I'd absolutely LOVE to travel the world and see other countries. Because of my Literature background, there are so many places in the UK and Europe I want to see and experience. There are times I am quite ashamed to be American ONLY from the standpoint of the country's overall ignorance. When people from other countries come to the US, we fully expect them to speak in English. But when the stereotypical American travels to other countries, we are amazed that they don't speak English. 70% of the world speaks a different language. Its that sort of ignorance and arrogance. True, its a stereotype, but those stereotypes do stem from a grain of truth.
But I guess I'll have to wait to travel until I win the Lotto. Maybe I should try numbers a little more random than just the Fibonacci series.
Or those stupid numbers from "Lost". You know EVERYONE used those for a while!
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Not only that, but that sort of mindset is the recipe for future failure. Only the countries that can adapt themselves to the changing circumstances will emerge intact. The others are roadkill.
rumborak
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Or those stupid numbers from "Lost". You know EVERYONE used those for a while!
Don't mess with those numbers, man. They're cursed.
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Not only that, but that sort of mindset is the recipe for future failure. Only the countries that can adapt themselves to the changing circumstances will emerge intact. The others are roadkill.
rumborak
Yep. Like I said earlier in the thread I think, Qing China is a prime example of this. The Chinese empire was the richest country in the world for 2,000 years, and their inability to move from thinking of China as the literal and political center of the earth was their doom.
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For the longest time the United States boasted that we were the greatest country on Earth, as well as all that God bless America stuff. We made it seem that we could do without any other countries were were the elite members of the human race. I think a lot of people in other countries just saw that as selfish and narrow minded.
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And France used to be the same way (actually, they're still pretty much like that :P). And then Napoleon happened and they lost the whole fuckin' thing. I mean think of it: French used to be a lingua franca, the way Latin once was and the way English is. It doesn't last, especially when you get arrogant.
Oh, and the British Empire too. But don't tell Andy.
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. When people from other countries come to the US, we fully expect them to speak in English.
I don't expect a non US citizen who is here on vacation/visiting to speak English. When I EXPECT english to be spoken is when you are a US citizen that lives here.....plans on living here for some time. The difference between early immigrants and the immigrants now is that the early immigrants came over and learned the American language, the culture and became 'American'.
Immigrants now come to our country to live but expect that they don't have to assimilate at all. The old immigrants still managed to keep thier culture and celebrate it all the while 'becoming' American. Immigrants now days don't even attempt to 'become' American. That is what bothers me. If you don't want to 'be' American, then don't come here. But for all the 'bad' crap that gets talked about America, there sure as heck is an awful lot of people both legally and illegally clammoring to get into this country.....WAY more than ANY other country in the WORLD.
This picking on/trash talking/etc. of America not only in this Forum/thread but on a national level is complete BS! If you want to believe that America is some big, bad country then go ahead but you're a fool. Like every country the US has it's fair share of idiots who get elected to power but all in all when history pans itself out and all of our bodies have returned to the earth, America will remain the beacon of HOPE it has been since it's inception.
For the longest time the United States boasted that we were the greatest country on Earth, as well as all that God bless America stuff. We made it seem that we could do without any other countries were were the elite members of the human race. I think a lot of people in other countries just saw that as selfish and narrow minded.
We still are. Which country consistently gets looked to when (pic a country) is in trouble or NEEDS something? It's not Russia, it's not Switzerland or Brazil. AMERICA...every time, all the time. I think where you use the word 'arrogant' I use the word 'confident'. And we should be. Other countries, especially the middle east look at us with envy and jealousy because our system DOES work. Like I said, there are flaws but it's not the system it's the tards' elected to govern the system and they will come and go.
There is no denying America is at a cross roads of sorts. And I personally am sick and tired of people declaring America 'dead' or 'secondary' to (insert country). China is overhyped and thanks to the media you'd never know that they really don't 'own' that much of America....a very small percentage. And, if it weren't for America and some ridiculously unfair trade agreement that we (for whatever reason) have allowed to go on for too long, China is still in the 19th century. They should be kissing our butts for ushering them into the 21st century and we should start to hold thier feet to the fire of the insanly lop sided 'trade' agreement in place.
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Other countries, especially the middle east look at us with envy and jealousy because our system DOES work.
Sorry, but that's plain not true. Again, it *used* to be that way. I don't know how much you travel yourself, but I can say that I am usually better off saying I'm from Germany than saying I'm from the US. When I mention Germany there's usually a "oooh, German! Good country, nice people, good cars!". When I mention US I usually get a lot of "lol, wtf is going on over there?!". There is a good amount of *respect* for the US, but envy? That element is no longer there, sorry.
From another personal anecdote, I and 2 other Germans I know have been gently nudged to apply for security clearance. However, I would entail destroying our German passports (a requirement I fully understand from the Security Office's point of view). But, all 3 of us have the notion of "you know what, I'll hang on to my passport. Who knows what'll happen here in the next 10 years".
There is no denying America is at a cross roads of sorts. And I personally am sick and tired of people declaring America 'dead' or 'secondary' to (insert country). China is overhyped and thanks to the media you'd never know that they really don't 'own' that much of America....a very small percentage. And, if it weren't for America and some ridiculously unfair trade agreement that we (for whatever reason) have allowed to go on for too long, China is still in the 19th century. They should be kissing our butts for ushering them into the 21st century and we should start to hold thier feet to the fire of the insanly lop sided 'trade' agreement in place.
Haha, are you seriously complaining about China using their strength to muscle favorable conditions for themselves? :lol That's what the US has done for decades.
rumborak
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yeah, since WWII the US has become the absolute king in luring countries into shady deals.
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Haha, are you seriously complaining about China using their strength to muscle favorable conditions for themselves? :lol That's what the US has done for decades.
Well not really...it's more about being annoyed that we (the US) allow such a lop sided trade agreement to continue. I wish I understood globabl economics in full detail....I do not. My brain just isn't 'mathmatically' inclined. But my understanding from what I do gleen from articles and conversation is that China does indeed 'cook the books' and use underhanded methods as far as valuing/devaluing thier currency to gain more power.
And concerning America's portrayal on a global level, it's not suprising that Europeans have that view of America.....it's two different styles of thinking and ways of life. But I wouldn't eliminate envy and jealousy from that equation so quickly.....I suppose we can just agree to disagree on that.
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And concerning America's portrayal on a global level, it's not suprising that Europeans have that view of America.....it's two different styles of thinking and ways of life. But I wouldn't eliminate envy and jealousy from that equation so quickly.....I suppose we can just agree to disagree on that.
You might have misunderstood me. This was non-Europeans commenting on their views of the US.
rumborak
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yeah, since WWII the US has become the absolute king in luring countries into shady deals.
Rebulding all of Europe after their presence was the lynch pin in stopping insane German and Italian Dictators who were hell bent on killing as many people as they could and ruling the rest......that was shady.
Rebuilding Japan after they decided they'd sucker punch the big kid...essentially placing thier industry in a better position than our own....that was shady.
Virtually standing alone and donating all time, money, supplies that we can to Africa to combat a horrid AIDS plauge.....that is shady.
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Virtually standing alone and donating all time, money, supplies that we can to Africa to combat a horrid AIDS plauge.....that is shady.
Eh, and other countries don't do that? In terms of per capita the US actually lags behind quite a bit:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_governments_by_development_aid
rumborak
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Which country consistently gets looked to when (pic a country) is in trouble or NEEDS something? It's not Russia, it's not Switzerland or Brazil. AMERICA...every time, all the time.
Virtually standing alone and donating all time, money, supplies that we can to Africa to combat a horrid AIDS plauge.....that is shady.
And this betrays a very feeble understanding of the flurry of international activity that actually occurs when any of these crises arises, and the fact that the U.S. is actually usually the most reluctant one with regards to acting, except when someone directly attacks us.
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Virtually standing alone and donating all time, money, supplies that we can to Africa to combat a horrid AIDS plauge.....that is shady.
Eh, and other countries don't do that? In terms of per capita the US actually lags behind quite a bit:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_governments_by_development_aid
rumborak
Take a look at the absolute terms though. US, $28.67 Billion. Next up, France at $12.43 Billion....the US doubled the next in line. Considering the amount of money given, the percentage of income graph doesn't mean as much. It'd be nice to give more sure...but I don't think that doubling the next closets 'donor' is anything to be ashamed about.
And Super Dude.....the US is first in line time and time again. Sri Lanka didn't attack us and we were the largest contributors there both governmentally and by private donors. And that happens in almost every natural disaster scenario. I'm not saying other countries don't do it at all, my point is that America leads the way virtually every time.
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yeah, since WWII the US has become the absolute king in luring countries into shady deals.
Rebulding all of Europe after their presence was the lynch pin in stopping insane German and Italian Dictators who were hell bent on killing as many people as they could and ruling the rest......that was shady.
Rebuilding Japan after they decided they'd sucker punch the big kid...essentially placing thier industry in a better position than our own....that was shady.
Virtually standing alone and donating all time, money, supplies that we can to Africa to combat a horrid AIDS plauge.....that is shady.
that's why I said 'since', the power the US got after WWII (free to divide the world in new spheres of influence) has lead to the US having it's hands in pretty much everything and (understandably) setting up beneficial deals all around the world. Pretty much all foreign affairs the US has been involved in since WWII were only to serve the economic interest of the US, which is not something I blame the US for doing, but don't try to paint it as if the US is some sort of bright shining light of solidarity and goodness.
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Take a look at the absolute terms though. US, $28.67 Billion. Next up, France at $12.43 Billion....the US doubled the next in line. Considering the amount of money given, the percentage of income graph doesn't mean as much. It'd be nice to give more sure...but I don't think that doubling the next closets 'donor' is anything to be ashamed about.
what? haha, have you seen the size of France compared to the US?
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The difference between early immigrants and the immigrants now is that the early immigrants came over and learned the American language, the culture and became 'American'.
Immigrants now come to our country to live but expect that they don't have to assimilate at all. The old immigrants still managed to keep thier culture and celebrate it all the while 'becoming' American. Immigrants now days don't even attempt to 'become' American. That is what bothers me.
Not the case at all. Do you expect such recent migrants into the US to fully assimilate into the typical "American" (whatever that means) society in a matter of mere years or mere decades? That's ludicrous. I assure you that the "early" immigrants didn't start speaking perfect English when they disembarked from the boat from X country to arrive at X city in the US. Most of the early migrants didn't even bother to speak English well, if at all. The assimilation takes generations to "complete," if you will.
And all this pre-supposes that these recent migrants aren't trying to assimilate into the American society. As most of them will tell you, they are actually attempting to do so and while the assimilation may obviously not be too readily perceived in the adult migrants who just recently migrated to the US, there's an overwhelming chance that their children will exhibit sings of at least some, if not total assimilation into the US culture.
And even if they weren't, is assimilation into a generally perceived notion of "American culture" mandatory for those who live in the United States? Should we round up all the people in the US who we deem "Unamerican"?
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The difference between early immigrants and the immigrants now is that the early immigrants came over and learned the American language, the culture and became 'American'.
Immigrants now come to our country to live but expect that they don't have to assimilate at all. The old immigrants still managed to keep thier culture and celebrate it all the while 'becoming' American. Immigrants now days don't even attempt to 'become' American. That is what bothers me.
Not the case at all. Do you expect such recent migrants into the US to fully assimilate into the typical "American" (whatever that means) society in a matter of mere years or mere decades? That's ludicrous. I assure you that the "early" immigrants didn't start speaking perfect English when they disembarked from the boat from X country to arrive at X city in the US. Most of the early migrants didn't even bother to speak English well, if at all. The assimilation takes generations to "complete," if you will.
And all this pre-supposes that these recent migrants aren't trying to assimilate into the American society. As most of them will tell you, they are actually attempting to do so and while the assimilation may obviously not be too readily perceived in the adult migrants who just recently migrated to the US, there's an overwhelming chance that their children will exhibit sings of at least some, if not total assimilation into the US culture.
And even if they weren't, is assimilation into a generally perceived notion of "American culture" mandatory for those who live in the United States? Should we round up all the people in the US who we deem "Unamerican"?
No round ups. There is no way to deem someone un-American. My point is the early immigrants showed signs of 'wanting' to 'become' American. But when I see stories that an American flag is torn town at a High School in Arizona and replaced by a Mexican flag or council members in a Texas city are suing because English is the official language of that town....things like that bother me...call me what you will but a Mexican flag has no business being flown above a High School even if the student population is 99.999% Mexican immigrants. This is America....fly your mexican flag from your porch...more power to you, celebrate your heritage. But not at an institution or something along those lines.
I agree that 'assimilation' doesn't happen over night or in a couple years. My point is the desire is not there like it once was, and if you don't desire to 'Americanize' and your desire is to come here and force laws and regulations to assimilate to your 'old' culture or countries way of being....then please leave.
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I think the obvious solution is to give Texas back to Mexico. Everyone wins.
Except Mexico.
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I'm not an expert on US history but wasn't Arizona part of mexico only 150 years ago (and only a US state for 100 years or so)? that's only a few generations, is it really that weird that there is a lot of Mexican nationalistic feelings and can you really blame them?
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I'm not an expert on US history but wasn't Arizona part of mexico only 150 years ago (and only a US state for 100 years or so)? that's only a few generations, is it really that weird that there is a lot of Mexican nationalistic feelings and can you really blame them?
No I can't. I understand the sentiment. But the point is that it isn't Mexico any longer. That's why I say celebrate your heritage in any form you want but when it comes to American rules/regulatioins etc. don't try and force America to change for your sake.....it's the other way around. I think the obvious solution is to give Texas back to Mexico. Everyone wins.
Except Mexico.
I honestly think that Mexico should just join the US. We institute a 2nd VP...strictly overseeing the 'newly' acquired Mexico....assume all control over it. Immediately launch a full fledged 'Sherman march to the sea' absolute war against the drug cartels and begin to rebuild the infrastructure.
Is that even possible? To annex or absorb Mexico as a 51st state or divy it up in to multiple states?
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And then rape of them of their languages and cultures and force them to become "american" and speak english?
Yea, no thanks.
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Absolute war against the drug cartels? That would be absolutely TERRIBLE.
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And then rape of them of their languages and cultures and force them to become "american" and speak english?
O.K, maybe not such a great idea.
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My point is the early immigrants showed signs of 'wanting' to 'become' American. But when I see stories that an American flag is torn town at a High School in Arizona and replaced by a Mexican flag or council members in a Texas city are suing because English is the official language of that town....things like that bother me...call me what you will but a Mexican flag has no business being flown above a High School even if the student population is 99.999% Mexican immigrants. This is America....fly your mexican flag from your porch...more power to you, celebrate your heritage. But not at an institution or something along those lines.
I agree that 'assimilation' doesn't happen over night or in a couple years. My point is the desire is not there like it once was, and if you don't desire to 'Americanize' and your desire is to come here and force laws and regulations to assimilate to your 'old' culture or countries way of being....then please leave.
On what basis are you claiming to know that current immigrants don't want to "become American"? On some fringe examples or some sensationalized news stories written to spur a knee-jerk reaction from super-conservatives to demand that we "kick de dam' Mexi-kins out"? Of course you're bound to find examples of migrants who don't want to assimilate into the society or who behave irrationally, yet you can't let these examples convince you that the majority of immigrants are like this. The overwhelming majority of immigrants today make vast efforts to assimilate as best as possible (they're smart enough to know that doing so would work in their favor). You're letting a few rotten apples ruin the bunch.
And who is to say that Latin Americans -- specifically Mexicans -- aren't willing or able to assimilate into the US? After all, it has happened before. After the United States took the lands from Mexico in the wake of the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo, the United States granted citizenship to Mexicans who where living in the lands that were formally Mexico's (California, Arizona, Utah, Texas, New Mexico etc). The descendants of these peoples eventually, through generations, came to assimilate into the American society so fully that they now don't speak a lick of Spanish, think of eating Taco Bell as a "genuine" Mexican cuisine experience :lol, and have all but forgotten how to pronounce their own last name of Rodriguez or Munoz, etc.
Why the history lesson? Because it is fairly clear that assimilation is inevitable, you simply must be patient and accept the possibility that you may not witness full assimilation of one people in your lifetime.
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On some fringe examples or some sensationalized news stories written to spur a knee-jerk reaction from super-conservatives
Guilty as charged :(
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I honestly think that Mexico should just join the US. We institute a 2nd VP...strictly overseeing the 'newly' acquired Mexico....assume all control over it. Immediately launch a full fledged 'Sherman march to the sea' absolute war against the drug cartels and begin to rebuild the infrastructure.
Is that even possible? To annex or absorb Mexico as a 51st state or divy it up in to multiple states?
I always find it funny how drug cartels are so antagonized in the US when Americans are their main costumers and providers of weapons. No drug cartels = poor, unfortunate, unhappy teenagers who can't buy weed to help ease their "problems".
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I honestly think that Mexico should just join the US. We institute a 2nd VP...strictly overseeing the 'newly' acquired Mexico....assume all control over it. Immediately launch a full fledged 'Sherman march to the sea' absolute war against the drug cartels and begin to rebuild the infrastructure.
Is that even possible? To annex or absorb Mexico as a 51st state or divy it up in to multiple states?
I always find it funny how drug cartels are so antagonized in the US when Americans are their main costumers and providers of weapons. No drug cartels = poor, unfortunate, unhappy teenagers who can't buy weed to help ease their "problems".
They are pretty brutal though. I can't recall which network it was, but I watched one of those 'specials' about the Mexican drug cartels and they are friggin' BRUTAL! Killing friends and families of any people who cross them. They are what the mafia was x1000....unchecked and unchallenged.
Sure the demand from America will always be there and if it isn't Mexican drug lords it'll be some other country's drug lords. Point is, those guys make living in some Mexican cities very hazardous.
And if the American teen who smokes weed was smart, he'd just grow his own.
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Absolutely. Things are bad and only getting worse with those damn cartels. Many Mexicans simply want to go back to the good ol' days of when the Mexican Gov and the Cartels had an agreement to let the drug mafias transport and sell their "goods" to the border unhampered by the government in exchange for no killings, execution, shootings, gun battles, etc.
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Absolutely. Things are bad and only getting worse with those damn cartels. Many Mexicans simply want to go back to the good ol' days of when the Mexican Gov and the Cartels had an agreement to let the drug mafias transport and sell their "goods" to the border unhampered by the government in exchange for no killings, execution, shootings, gun battles, etc.
Is that the issue? The Mexican government has decided to 'crack down' on the cartels instead of turning thier head to it?
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Pretty much. The US urged Mexico to do so, though. And when I said urged, I mean "do this, or we'll stop buying x commodity from you". Turns out it wasn't the best decision. Not for Mexico and her people, at least.
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I honestly think that Mexico should just join the US. We institute a 2nd VP...strictly overseeing the 'newly' acquired Mexico....assume all control over it. Immediately launch a full fledged 'Sherman march to the sea' absolute war against the drug cartels and begin to rebuild the infrastructure.
Is that even possible? To annex or absorb Mexico as a 51st state or divy it up in to multiple states?
I always find it funny how drug cartels are so antagonized in the US when Americans are their main costumers and providers of weapons. No drug cartels = poor, unfortunate, unhappy teenagers who can't buy weed to help ease their "problems".
They are pretty brutal though. I can't recall which network it was, but I watched one of those 'specials' about the Mexican drug cartels and they are friggin' BRUTAL! Killing friends and families of any people who cross them. They are what the mafia was x1000....unchecked and unchallenged.
Sure the demand from America will always be there and if it isn't Mexican drug lords it'll be some other country's drug lords. Point is, those guys make living in some Mexican cities very hazardous.
And if the American teen who smokes weed was smart, he'd just grow his own.
Or maybe we could legalize and heavily regulate marijuana production and consumption (a legal smoking age like tobacco and drinking, sell it only at pharmacies and require a bunch of paperwork for them to sell it, get the FDA in there, etc.), and therefore eliminate the cartel gangs' main source of business.
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Or maybe we could legalize and heavily regulate marijuana production and consumption (a legal smoking age like tobacco and drinking, sell it only at pharmacies and require a bunch of paperwork for them to sell it, get the FDA in there, etc.), and therefore eliminate the cartel gangs' main source of business.
As much as I detest the idea of legalizing drugs, I'd ultimately have to be in favor with this. The only foreseeable problem is that the cartels, after marijuana is hypothetically legalized in the US and still hungry for power, will either simply concentrate on selling other non-legal drugs to Gringoes (meth, coke, etc), sell marijuana at an even cheaper rate than legal marijuana (or try to sell it to minors), or turn to more gruesome methods of making money (more ransom kidnappings, blackmail, etc).
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I mean yeah, I personally wouldn't use and will probably raise my kids not to, but honestly it would work a helluva lot better than anything we're doing now. And I don't know about cartels providing cheaper weed; as it is, illegal weed is pretty expensive from what my using friends tell me. It can only go down from here. Not to mention that with the FDA involved, truly dangerous things like lacing other hard drugs into the substances sold at pharmacies can't take place.
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Virtually standing alone and donating all time, money, supplies that we can to Africa to combat a horrid AIDS plauge.....that is shady.
Eh, and other countries don't do that? In terms of per capita the US actually lags behind quite a bit:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_governments_by_development_aid
rumborak
How the hell is Belgium 14th in absolute terms? :lol
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Military might is a Cold War measurement. All the Patriot missiles didn't help against 9/11.
rumborak
The little guys can't really militarily beat us. The big guys have to face the nukes.
What is China going to do? Ask us to pay them back?
We run this town.
This attitude is the reason the US gets so much flack. Just because we have weapons doesn't mean we can do whatever the fuck we want.
Yeah, I would just like to say to my friends from other countries, thankfully not everyone who lives here in the US thinks like this.
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Or maybe we could legalize and heavily regulate marijuana production and consumption (a legal smoking age like tobacco and drinking, sell it only at pharmacies and require a bunch of paperwork for them to sell it, get the FDA in there, etc.), and therefore eliminate the cartel gangs' main source of business.
As much as I detest the idea of legalizing drugs, I'd ultimately have to be in favor with this. The only foreseeable problem is that the cartels, after marijuana is hypothetically legalized in the US and still hungry for power, will either simply concentrate on selling other non-legal drugs to Gringoes (meth, coke, etc), sell marijuana at an even cheaper rate than legal marijuana (or try to sell it to minors), or turn to more gruesome methods of making money (more ransom kidnappings, blackmail, etc).
Which is why you just decriminalize possession of harder drugs. It works better, Portugal shows us that. Then, no more cartels.
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History has shown that ANY empire can and will fall. Rome had arguably the best military in the world and they fell (not quickly mind you) by simply being a little too xenophobic and ignorant with the Goths. Assimilation isn't really the name of the game either since again the Romans were quite adept at the assimilation game and still failed to keep their empire strong. We have it a bit lucky over here. We have only two nations that border us and neither are really the war monger-type. Our fall will most certainly come through an economical failure or perhaps another civil war will do us in, or perhaps a fringe group will find a way to blow up a few nukes. Either way, an invading force seems a bit out of the question so I agree, all our puffed up pride about our guns and military might only works internally with an invading force. No military in the world is going to be able to fight against economical failure and a civil war will split the military.
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Our fall will most certainly come through an economical failure or perhaps another civil war will do us in
The latter actually seems the most likely to me, looking at where the country is heading politically right now. It seems there's open war of the cultures going on, liberals against conservatives, Christians against others, poor against rich.
rumborak
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History has shown that ANY empire can and will fall. Rome had arguably the best military in the world and they fell (not quickly mind you) by simply being a little too xenophobic and ignorant with the Goths. Assimilation isn't really the name of the game either since again the Romans were quite adept at the assimilation game and still failed to keep their empire strong. We have it a bit lucky over here. We have only two nations that border us and neither are really the war monger-type. Our fall will most certainly come through an economical failure or perhaps another civil war will do us in, or perhaps a fringe group will find a way to blow up a few nukes. Either way, an invading force seems a bit out of the question so I agree, all our puffed up pride about our guns and military might only works internally with an invading force. No military in the world is going to be able to fight against economical failure and a civil war will split the military.
The truth of that story is actually much more complex - both the East and West, after all, did have a fair number of Germanic generals who were upgraded to Augustus (emperor on a level above Caesar), and that's a trend that went on for like three centuries until the fall of the Empire. They also had hospitalitas, the settlement of Germanic nomads and use of them in pretty high command in the military (at least half of the infantry by the 4th cent. was Germanic). That's not too xenophobic, as far as I'm concerned.
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Our fall will most certainly come through an economical failure or perhaps another civil war will do us in
The latter actually seems the most likely to me, looking at where the country is heading politically right now. It seems there's open war of the cultures going on, liberals against conservatives, Christians against others, poor against rich.
rumborak
But, will there be Buchanan or a Lincoln in the White House? I don't get war, so of course it seems ridiculous to me that actual civil war would break out, but a more or less peaceful dissociation is theoretically possible.
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Which is why you just decriminalize possession of harder drugs. It works better, Portugal shows us that. Then, no more cartels.
I sincerely doubt that's ever going to happen in the US.
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Which is why you just decriminalize possession of harder drugs. It works better, Portugal shows us that. Then, no more cartels.
I sincerely doubt that's ever going to happen in the US.
Maybe not, doesn't mean it's not the right thing to do.
https://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/wed-march-28-2012/ahmed-rashid
Basically, our War on Drugs helps create the problem that exists in Afghanistan and Pakistan (ignoring the huge problem in Mexico), and is a huge reason why we aren't leave Afghanistan. Imagine if Americans could just legally buy Afghani opium and marijuana/hash? It would be better for the individual Afghan farmers, it would mean they don't have to deal with criminals, aka the Taliban, to sell their produce, and make a living, while at the same time having their interests align more with our own (without actually changing how we individually behave). Of course, this would require more than just the US acting, but if the US decriminalized such drugs, it would be a huge step, and many countries enforce strict drug laws becuase of US pressure.
Oh, and there's tons more to the region than simply this, I don't want to try and imply that this would instantly solve everything in the region, but it would definitely help.
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While I'm not totally opposed to it, I'm not exactly willing to trust Americans with that type of drug legalization framework.
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While I'm not totally opposed to it, I'm not exactly willing to trust Americans with that type of drug legalization framework.
Why? Afraid they'll go out and get drugs? Trust me, if they want to now, they already do. And if they need help, they'll be less likely to do it, and usually only after committing a crime. Also, decriminalization is not the same as legalization.
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Call me paranoid, distrusting of humankind, perhaps even backward, hopelessly traditional, etc, but the idea of making hard drugs even more accessible to the general public makes me very, very uneasy. :hat :hat :hat :hat :hat :hat :hat :hat :hat
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Legalizing weed here (the Netherlands) resulted in less users, percentage wise there are a lot more users in the US (13.7%) than in the Netherlands (5.4%, the numbers are based on the amount of regular users between 15-65).
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Legalization of any substances would be better than the pointless incarceration. It'd be cheaper to treat the resulting abuse. But no, these substances will remain illegal. The shadow government needs its funding, after all.
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Actually, the "shadow government" as you call it loses money on the War on Drugs.
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I was actually being kind of sarcastic with the nuke talk. I mean, we do militarily run the planet, but I know that the world is not run like that.
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We are the best, and it's best that we don't associate with 'those people'.
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You know. Maybe it's that on TV we see the alerts about not going to certain countries and that may scare people from traveling to certain countries. Forgive my ignorance but do other countries get warnings like this or are we just a little scared?
Myself. I've wanted to go to Ireland for a long time but with owning a house we don't get to do the "Big traveling"
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Nah, the travel alerts exist everywhere.
One problem is of course that the average American worker has almost zero off time.
rumborak
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Nah, the travel alerts exist everywhere.
One problem is of course that the average American worker has almost zero off time.
rumborak
Or money.
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Nah, the travel alerts exist everywhere.
One problem is of course that the average American worker has almost zero off time.
rumborak
That is very true. I've lost a lot of vacation time with this new job and Scheavo may be right in that, growing up, my brother and I shared the same bedroom, we didn't vacation early on but when my parents became well off then we traveled. My parents were fiscally sound. Some of my friends live in houses where every kid has their own bed room and there's like 4 bathrooms, big gas guzzling trucks, ect. People overspend in America nowadays.
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I think a bit of it is (and this is a huge generalization) a lot of Americans seem to be uneducated about the rest of the world. Many American citizens don't know a lot about the world economy or politics - some wouldn't even know the name of leaders of important countries such as the UK or China. And obviously this isn't the case just in the US - there are people like this in every country. But it just seems in the US that people often have strong views on these subjects which they actually know nothing about. An example of this is the imperial measurement system - anyone with a brain can see that feet, pounds, farenheit etc. is simply retarded and makes everything a lot harder for the rest of the world when comparing to American units. But the general population is too convinced that their way is right and so it won't be changed.
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I think a bit of it is (and this is a huge generalization) a lot of Americans seem to be uneducated about the rest of the world. Many American citizens don't know a lot about the world economy or politics - some wouldn't even know the name of leaders of important countries such as the UK or China. And obviously this isn't the case just in the US - there are people like this in every country. But it just seems in the US that people often have strong views on these subjects which they actually know nothing about. An example of this is the imperial measurement system - anyone with a brain can see that feet, pounds, farenheit etc. is simply retarded and makes everything a lot harder for the rest of the world when comparing to American units. But the general population is too convinced that their way is right and so it won't be changed.
Most people don't need to measurements to do math, though, so the reason American's want to stick with pounds, etc, is becuase thats what they grew up with, and that's what they know. When I read something that says its 143cm, or something, I can translate that into inches/feet, but it's only after I translate that I can relate with the measurement being given.
I'm sure if most people actually needed to do physics based upon the math, they'd start to dislike the imperial system quite a bit (just go as an American physicist).
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Don't Americans work more than people in other countries? 2 week vacation is normal here (usually split up), but I thought I remember reading that many European countries the average person gets 6 weeks of vacation a year. Feel free to correct if I'm wrong.
So along with time, I think another reason Americans don't travel is because we don't have a lot of neighbors. Canada isn't exactly an exotic locale, so that leaves Mexico and the Caribean - or as the media would refer to them a drug lord haven and where pretty white girls go to get murdered. The last part is a joke.
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What about travelling inside of the US? Is that not travelling?
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What about travelling inside of the US? Is that not travelling?
I think that's part of it too. The US is so large and diverse, that you could go on a vacation every year to a different place and never leave the country. I've always used this as the main reason I don't vacation abroad. There are dozens of places in the US I'd like to see and I can go to them for less than half the cost of a trip abroad. I would imagine that many have the same opinion as me. And most Americans can't really afford a trip abroad.
Of course that doesn't explain why we aren't well educated on other cultures.
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What about travelling inside of the US? Is that not travelling?
That's usually what people resort to. That's why I like travelling for concerts, kill two birds with one stone.
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What about travelling inside of the US? Is that not travelling?
It's still travelling, and you do get exposed to some different regions, people, and minor cultural differences - but pretty much anywhere you go in the US is going to be extremely familiar. You'll have a lot of the same grocery stores, a lot of the same restaurants, a lot of the same stores, pretty much the same TV, pretty much the same news, the same language, etc. It can't compare at all to Europe, where the equivalent of going from state to state is going from one country another.
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That's true. I guess actually being in a different country, not understanding the locals, the TV, and everything is a big part of realizing that your country is far from the only one.
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absolute war against the drug cartels and begin to rebuild the infrastructure.
Those cartels exist because of the war on drugs. Increasing the war is therefore not the solution.
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What about travelling inside of the US? Is that not travelling?
I think that's part of it too. The US is so large and diverse, that you could go on a vacation every year to a different place and never leave the country. I've always used this as the main reason I don't vacation abroad. There are dozens of places in the US I'd like to see and I can go to them for less than half the cost of a trip abroad. I would imagine that many have the same opinion as me. And most Americans can't really afford a trip abroad.
Of course that doesn't explain why we aren't well educated on other cultures.
I think it's also important to point out that the US is massive. So, so massive. It spans more time zones than the whole of Europe, probably, I'm guessing. (And I mean geographically, as opposed to culturally, where most of Europe's mutually decided they want to be an hour ahead of GMT regardless of where they are in the atlas.)
I live on a big wet tea-slathered rock just north of France, so I only have to move my head eight degrees and everyone's speaking prussian. I've travelled to Spain twice, and Italy once, which isn't a staggering list, but in the UK it makes me "travelled." Check the distance on Google Maps, though, and England to Spain is 1,155 miles by car (https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?um=1&ie=UTF-8&um=1&ie=UTF-8&gl=uk&saddr=england&daddr=spain&dirflg=d&geocode=Kd_VHmyKqdBHMaiOLTMlleH0;KYu8YTJ440IMMeyjaAeULOym&ei=KSeDT--wJ-ab1AW8ut2_DQ&sa=X&oi=geocode_result&ct=title&resnum=1&ved=0CCoQ9w8wAA). And it'd be far less as the crow flies. That's about what, one time zone? Poxy. You could drive 1,155 miles and never leave Alaska in the US.
The drive from my hometown to Venice, meanwhile, would've been 1,017 miles had I not planed it. That's fifty miles shorter than Mount St. Helens to Las Vegas. In the UK, that trip makes me cultured, 'cos I go through border control and own a passport. If I made the same trip in the US, I'd be a luddite.
So frankly, I'd argue the main reason America's considered so isolated is because you're being held to much higher standards. There's every chance that you, the American reader, having never left your country, have possibly seen more geographical diversity than I will in my lifetime. So do feel free to tell any smug Brits who tell you your country's thick that they can fuck off. From me. Personally.
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That's not something you hear often. Great post, Rob. Made me feel all tingly inside.
But the geographical diversity you bring up is fascinating. I can't say that culturally I've been out of the country. But I have seen the teal waters and white beaches of the Keys, the swamps of Florida, the white capped mountains of the Rockies, the deserts near Las Vegas, and many things in between.
I hadn't really thought about that before.
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I've lived in Wisconsin, Iowa, North Carolina, Minnesota, Washington State, and Texas. All of them are different from each other culturally. Sure, there are a lot of similarities but there are definite differences.
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I think one thing that ends up causing US-ers to not be too inclined to travel outside of the country, aside from the obvious issues of expenses of traveling in general, is that to many Americans, the idea of being in a land where the primary language isn't English is rather daunting. Not many Americans seem to be fluent in other languages, so they are discouraged from going to other countries, which means they have little experience in non-English speaking places, which makes the idea of going to such places seem unappealing and discouraging. And it ends up being a sort of cycle that feeds into itself.
I bet more Americans would travel outside of the country if learning foreign languages was mandated in schools from elementary onwards, much like is done in Europe, from what I've heard.
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It's necessary in pretty much every country in the world, actually. I know that most if not all developed countries mandate English as a second language, for obvious reasons.
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I bet more Americans would travel outside of the country if learning foreign languages was mandated in schools from elementary onwards, much like is done in Europe, from what I've heard.
I agree with this, but it's not like we have to learn their language anymore. Ya, it's dickish, but that language all those Europeans are learning is English. My french teacher in high school said when she'd go to France, it'd be impossible to get anyone to speak French. They know you're American, and they just respond in English.
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I don't really think that's a primary reason, it should be easier for you guys to travel, precisely because everybody else speaks English. I had to learn, Dutch, English, German and French in high school, that doesn't mean I only travel to countries where they speak those languages and I don't think that's the case for any of my fellow Dutchmen (+ it's not like I speak any French anymore).
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Err, I guess what I agreed with is that we should teach foreign languages.
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yeah it was more in response to 'MasterShakezula'
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There's every chance that you, the American reader, having never left your country, have possibly seen more geographical diversity than I will in my lifetime.
Just here in North Carolina, we have beaches and coastline, a large coastal plain, which becomes a section known as the Piedmont as you head west, which includes rolling hills and occasional mountains. Then when you get into the far west, you hit the subranges of the Appalachian Mountains, including the highest peak east of the Mississippi River, Mount Mitchell, at 6,684 feet (2,037 meters). So, beaches to mountains. Also, there is a large wetlands environment in the coastal plain.
So I could see a plethora of geographical diversity without ever leaving my own state, much less leaving my country.
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Not just geographical, but zoological. I guess one thing I forget a lot, is that Europe doesn't have too many wild animals left (unless I'm unaware of a very successful re-population?). My example is far from typical, but I mean, within a 20 mile radius of my house, there's probably at least one grizzly bear, some black bears, deer herds, elk herds, beavers, coyotes, and perhaps a couple of wolves, some mountain lions, perhaps lynxes or bobcats (less likely), maybe some wolverines, and more.
But don't get me wrong, if I had the money, I'd probably be on a plane to Europe within a couple of days, and then Asia, Africa, South America.
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There's every chance that you, the American reader, having never left your country, have possibly seen more geographical diversity than I will in my lifetime.
Just here in North Carolina, we have beaches and coastline, a large coastal plain, which becomes a section known as the Piedmont as you head west, which includes rolling hills and occasional mountains. Then when you get into the far west, you hit the subranges of the Appalachian Mountains, including the highest peak east of the Mississippi River, Mount Mitchell, at 6,684 feet (2,037 meters). So, beaches to mountains. Also, there is a large wetlands environment in the coastal plain.
So I could see a plethora of geographical diversity without ever leaving my own state, much less leaving my country.
When I first moved to NC, my emotional state regarding the place was somewhere in between "Wow, lots of trees! Pretty!" and "Holy shit! I'm in Narnia!"
While NC is undoubtedly a beautiful state, I also greatly recommend heading out West and taking in the majestic desert vistas. Particularly in Arizona and Southern Utah. Experiencing a desert sunset is just one of those things that cannot be adequately described via text.
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Well, I've been to Colorado, so I think I've seen a little bit of that. I was in Colorado Springs, visited Red Rocks and the Garden of the Gods. Unbelievably beautiful, nothing like that here in NC.
I would love to visit out west again.
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Is that anywhere near Steamboat Springs? I used to have an uncle out there.
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Is that anywhere near Steamboat Springs? I used to have an uncle out there.
I have no idea, that was 10 days, about 22 years ago *shudders*
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Colorado Springs and Steamboat Springs are just over 4 hours away from each other.