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General => Archive => Political and Religious => Topic started by: Implode on January 27, 2012, 11:06:42 AM
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I was reminded of this when a friend showed me what was going on in her school.
https://www.kstp.com/article/12303/?vid=3221065&v=1
Some kid got suspended for refusing to cover a tattoo of the Confederate flag on his arm. He argues that it violates his right to free speech. He attends a private school, so obviously that argument doesn't hold up. She's informed me that other students are now putting Confederate flags on their cars in protest, all arguing that it's about the history of the south and has nothing to do with racism.
Personally I think it as the same as flying a Nazi flag and claiming that you're celebrating the history of Germany, but what do you guys think about the whole "heritage not hate" saying?
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I agree that it's a blatant symbol of racism. Heck the history of the south that they're referring to is based on a system of slavery. That said, they should have every right to display a confederate flag if they're dumb enough to want to do that.
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Personally I think it as the same as flying a Nazi flag and claiming that you're celebrating the history of Germany, but what do you guys think about the whole "heritage not hate" saying?
Except for the fact that it's not. There is a lot more to being proud of southern heritage that has nothing whatsoever to do with racism.
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Is it this flag?
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/58/Conf_Navy_Jack_(light_blue).svg)
I find it odd when people fly that flag and claim heritage. If you're really after heritage why fly a military flag and not one of the Confederacy's national flags? Displaying this just makes me think you don't know your heritage. Outside military use, this pattern was never more than the equivalent to the 'stars field' on the US flag.
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There is a lot more to being proud of southern heritage that has nothing whatsoever to do with racism.
I agree... so use a symbol for that heritage that wasn't used as a symbol for "F-you north... we want to keep our slaves." It may have been a symbol for the south before the civil war, but the vast majority of people in the US would instantly associate it with a slave culture.
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...but the vast majority of people in the US would instantly associate it with a slave culture.
I don't think this is true at all.
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...but the vast majority of people in the US would instantly associate it with a slave culture.
I don't think this is true at all.
Most people I talk to would associate it with slave culture.
It's kind of interesting. I think most people that are okay with it are from the south, and most that associate it with slave culture are from the north.
What about my comparison? What's the difference between that and the Nazi flag? Say someone wanted to fly it because they were just truly fascinated with the history behind it rather than the racism. Is that okay? Bad?
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It's kind of interesting. I think most people that are okay with it are from the south, and most that associate it with slave culture are from the north.
Part of it is that in the north we don't really learn about how the symbol was used in the south prior to the civil war. Other than the vague knowledge that it was, I can't say how or why. 99% of the time we see that symbol in a picture, it has to do with the civil war. While racism is still a problem all over the US, it is worse in the south in my experience, so it doesn't surprise me that they would be more tolerant of a symbol that brings racism to mind.
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Proctor: All right, here's your last question. What was the cause of
the Civil War?
Apu: Actually, there were numerous causes. Aside from the obvious
schism between the abolitionists and the anti-abolitionists,
there were economic factors, both domestic and inter--
Proctor: Wait, wait... just say slavery.
Apu: Slavery it is, sir.
I agree... so use a symbol for that heritage that wasn't used as a symbol for "F-you north... we want to keep our slaves." It may have been a symbol for the south before the civil war, but the vast majority of people in the US would instantly associate it with a slave culture.
I think a symbol of "Fuck You North" is a perfectly valid sentiment to express. There are a gazillion differences between the two cultures, and the prior history of slavery isn't the entire point.
That said, most people who get up in arms about their right to display the battle flag are doing it entirely to ruffle people's feathers. I agree with their right to do it, and as y'all have probably noticed I'm somewhat fond of much of my Southern heritage, but so are a lot of real assholes.
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Must depend on where you are from. I've lived in California my whole life except for my military stint, and I wouldn't associate it with slavery and don't know many who would. During my military time, I spent a lot of time in North Carolina where I was based, and in South Carolina and Georgia with friends I had made (as well as in some northern states with friends I made who were from those states as well). My experience was about the same. Sure, there were some who would use it in a racist way. But most, whether northern or southern, and whether black or white, didn't view it as a racist thing; they viewed it as a southern thing. Either that, or I just missed the point.
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Part of it is that in the north we don't really learn about how the symbol was used in the south prior to the civil war. Other than the vague knowledge that it was, I can't say how or why. 99% of the time we see that symbol in a picture, it has to do with the civil war. While racism is still a problem all over the US, it is worse in the south in my experience, so it doesn't surprise me that they would be more tolerant of a symbol that brings racism to mind.
What are you talking about? The flag I posted a picture of? That was a military designed flag for the Confederate's army. It had some basis in older Southern military flags, but it was not a symbol of the South prior to the Civil War.
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Must depend on where you are from. I've lived in California my whole life except for my military stint, and I wouldn't associate it with slavery and don't know many who would. During my military time, I spent a lot of time in North Carolina where I was based, and in South Carolina and Georgia with friends I had made (as well as in some northern states with friends I made who were from those states as well). My experience was about the same. Sure, there were some who would use it in a racist way. But most, whether northern or southern, and whether black or white, didn't view it as a racist thing; they viewed it as a southern thing. Either that, or I just missed the point.
I think you're right. I'd love to see statistics showing peoples' opinions matched with where in the country they live.
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What are you talking about? The flag I posted a picture of? That was a military designed flag for the Confederate's army. It had some basis in older Southern military flags, but it was not a symbol of the South prior to the Civil War.
I said it used as a symbol in the south, not of the south. You said yourself it was used in some older military flags. I knew it was used for something prior to the civil war, just wasn't aware of what. So thanks for the info. :)
Must depend on where you are from.
This is probably true. Having lived my entire life in either the upper Midwest or New England, I have definitely gotten the northern slant on the history of the civil war. Both of these place contributed heavily to the north's military efforts. Heck every town around me has a civil war memorial statue in the central square.
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@lordxizor: IIt was not used prior to the Civil War, though, anywhere. When I said basis from older flags, I'm talking things like a lot of militias might have had St. Andrew's crosses in their flags, so they made the battle flag have a cross. It was a completely new design, made specifically for the Confederate military during the Civil War.
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Heck every town around me has a civil war memorial statue in the central square.
'Bout two miles down the road from my office is Robert E. Lee Park. :lol There's also an elementary school named for him pretty close to my home, as well as quite a few other civil war figures. Dallas's school for the deaf is Stonewall Jackson.
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Is The Dukes Of Hazzard banned from TV?
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@lordxizor: IIt was not used prior to the Civil War, though, anywhere. When I said basis from older flags, I'm talking things like a lot of militias might have had St. Andrew's crosses in their flags, so they made the battle flag have a cross. It was a completely new design, made specifically for the Confederate military during the Civil War.
OK. Guess that goes to show that I knew even less about it than I thought I did. If that's the case, I think it has less to do with southern heritage than I did before. Slavery, while not the only factor in the civil war, was one of the biggest and is the one the war is primarily remembered for. Though I'd imagine the other reasons are played up more in the south than in the north.
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Until I moved down to the South, I thought it was a symbol of racist rednecks and all the other negative stuff associated with it. Southern culture is really different, and people down here are proud of their tradition and heritage. They aren't racist, but they're proud of agricultural roots, southern cooking, and the fact that their ancestors fought bravely while largely being under-supplied and being out manned 2 to 1. They see the flag as a uniting symbol.
It's sometimes hard to see that, especially when some places teach the Civil War as the "War of Northern Aggression" to this day.
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Heck every town around me has a civil war memorial statue in the central square.
'Bout two miles down the road from my office is Robert E. Lee Park. :lol There's also an elementary school named for him pretty close to my home, as well as quite a few other civil war figures. Dallas's school for the deaf is Stonewall Jackson.
Funny thing is, some of the Confederate generals are almost revered in the North, too, especially Lee. Not that he gets many things named after him.
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Heck every town around me has a civil war memorial statue in the central square.
'Bout two miles down the road from my office is Robert E. Lee Park. :lol There's also an elementary school named for him pretty close to my home, as well as quite a few other civil war figures. Dallas's school for the deaf is Stonewall Jackson.
Funny thing is, some of the Confederate generals are almost revered in the North, too, especially Lee. Not that he gets many things named after him.
Probably a combination of the facts that good generalship was a quality they were in short supply of, and that plenty of the Southern generals had done some pretty nice work before the split.
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That and he is viewed as honorable, with a strong sense of duty. In some sense, he is the face of the 'good' South of the time. It isn't right to call him anti-slavery, but he was open to slavery ending. I think this helped foster that image after his death.
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I don't remember a ton from my childhood in Florida (which I don't think really counts as 'the south' anyways), but I do have a vivid recollection of the redneck next door flying a confederate flag on his house. The only other memory I have of him is when he almost killed himself trying to burn his garbage (why he felt the need to burn it I have no idea). His wife had thrown a bunch of hair spray cans and shit in the garbage, which of course didn't take well to being incincerated. lulz ensued.
So yeah, my only real experience with those who fly the confederate flag didn't exactly throw a point in their favor :lol
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The problem here is basically the symbol itself and that for the most part it's associated with the negative aspects of the Civil War era south and not the other aspects. The same with the Nazi symbol. It's also a sign that we still as a human race refuse to let go of the trauma of the past thus allowing it to affect our emotions and judgement. What I find interesting is I find comments for symbols always leaning towards the negative of the symbol and never the positive things. It is rare we seek out the good in another or another heritage, we insist on seeking out the bad and being judgemental. Yes, people will have their opinions, some are reasonable while others are irrational and hate-bent. When I see the Confederate Flag I think of the South, sure, but I try to think of the people of the South in that time, and try not to be judgmental to their habits and culture. It's so easy to fling hate at slavery or racism, but since when it is fair for such judgment to trascend each generation? When does the judgmental behavior end? How many generations have to suffer for a contemporary opinion about a history we have no control of fixing? If the kid wearing the Confederate Flag is doing it for good then there really nothing immoral about it.
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That and he is viewed as honorable, with a strong sense of duty. In some sense, he is the face of the 'good' South of the time. It isn't right to call him anti-slavery, but he was open to slavery ending. I think this helped foster that image after his death.
Stonewall Jackson was the same way. He actually did a great deal of good for the blacks in Lexington, and seemed to support slavery only insofar as he didn't think himself worthy to question the law of the land.
And this is why I think it's reasonable to allow people to honor the battle flag, if they see fit. Unlike the popular, Northern contemporary view, quite a bit of their leadership really wasn't into it for the preservation of slavery. Lee and Jackson had their own reasons for supporting secession, and slavery doesn't really seem to be a particularly strong one.
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When I have talked to Southerners about the flag, they always tell me its just s symbol of Southern heritage and tradition and is not, in most cases, used as a symbol of racism. The problem is, if someone racist uses it, then it just gives everyone a bad image if they use it to.
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Wanting to display a Confederate flag to celebrate southern heritage is the same as wanting to say "f-g" to someone you don't like without implying they're gay.
Obviously, there's the fact that neither of these acts of speech exists in a vacuum. Whatever you meant in your head, it's going to provoke a reaction in other people that are hearing it. A black person who sees a confederate flag is going to be thinking about a time when - purely because of his race - he wasn't treated like a real human. A gay person is going to hear f-g and think of a time he was beaten up in high school not as a reaction to anything he did but simply because of who he was. As a society, we've chosen to care about these things.
And why shouldn't you? I'm not saying to blow things out of proportion. Tracy Morgan's public crucifixion was painful and awful to watch. Nobody should support that. But, when these displays bring up so much darkness, why shouldn't that concern you? Why shouldn't that concern society?
How much does this kid really care about history and heritage? Probably not very much. So why is he going through this much trouble to wear a confederate flag tattoo? It's neither heritage or hatred. It's rebellion.
Most forms of teenage rebellion are rightfully considered stupid. Why is this an exception? Most forms of teenage rebellion are also very selfish, just like this one.
If I was the head of the school, I wouldn't let any student come to class whose car had a confederate flag tattoo on it. And if I had to send someone home more than twice for this reason, the kid would be at risk for expulsion without a tuition refund, pending a meeting with the parents.
People wonder what's wrong with America. This kind of immaturity and lack of regard for other human beings is the problem. Trying to pretend it's about any sort of bigger issue gives it false legitimacy.
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I see your sentiment, but I think you are way off. I believe you don't live in the south or don't talk to born and raised southerners too often. They really do fly the flag down there very often. It's not as taboo as us in the north think of it. It is a symbol of southern culture and heritage to them, not a symbol of slavery. There is more to the south than slavery.
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Wanting to display a Confederate flag to celebrate southern heritage is the same as wanting to say "f-g" to someone you don't like without implying they're gay.
Obviously, there's the fact that neither of these acts of speech exists in a vacuum. Whatever you meant in your head, it's going to provoke a reaction in other people that are hearing it.
What others have said about cutltural difference is true as well. Apparently it's not a big in the south as well as using the word "fag" is not a big deal in certain circles.
But I also agree with you. We should just keep in mind how what we do or say can effect negative feelings in other people. I guess we just have to be aware of when things are appropriate. (Though I really really hate the word fag)
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I see your sentiment, but I think you are way off. I believe you don't live in the south or don't talk to born and raised southerners too often. They really do fly the flag down there very often. It's not as taboo as us in the north think of it. It is a symbol of southern culture and heritage to them, not a symbol of slavery. There is more to the south than slavery.
The culture of the Civil War and Reconstruction-era south was racist. The confederate flag represents a racist culture, and one that was proud of its racism. There's no way to get around that.
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I see your sentiment, but I think you are way off. I believe you don't live in the south or don't talk to born and raised southerners too often. They really do fly the flag down there very often. It's not as taboo as us in the north think of it. It is a symbol of southern culture and heritage to them, not a symbol of slavery. There is more to the south than slavery.
To be fair, you're 100% right about the fact I don't live in the South.
But, when it comes to this story, I'm not sure it takes place in the South. The TV station broadcasting it is based in Minnesota.
Also, I hate to say this, but isn't Southern Culture using the confederate flag as a symbol a pretty valid reason for why so many people hate it?
This isn't some northern white superiority complex thing either. I live in one of the most conservative areas in the country, and there's something about the kind of people who live here I really enjoy. And they don't need a confederate flag to be this way.
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No it doesn't. The Confederate flag represents southern pride in how the culture of the south differs than in the north. The race card is being thrown at everything nowadays.
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It's expression through a symbol. It's free speech. A private school has the right to restrict free speech, and if it was in the school dress code rules, then the kid was in the wrong.
But regarding whether or not it is right or wrong to be proud of 'your' history, I don't see how it could be either. I think it's kind of silly to hold to tradition, and count yourself as a part of a group just because you have a certain ancestry. "Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it." But if you really want to, then no one should really stop you if you're not infringing on the rights of others.
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It is a symbol of southern culture and heritage to them, not a symbol of slavery.
I find it interesting that they chose a symbol for southern heritage that was the symbol for a war that was primarily a war to save the practice of slavery. It just seems odd to me. It's a bit like Germans choosing to use the Nazi flag to celebrate German heritage (though not nearly as blatantly offensive). I suppose there really isn't any other symbol that unites the entire south, so that's probably why they cling to it despite it's racist undertones.
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No it doesn't. The Confederate flag represents southern pride in how the culture of the south differs than in the north. The race card is being thrown at everything nowadays.
Why's that something to be proud of? I'm not proud I'm part of a culture that's different from Southern culture.
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Wanting to display a Confederate flag to celebrate southern heritage is the same as wanting to say "f-g" to someone you don't like without implying they're gay.
Obviously, there's the fact that neither of these acts of speech exists in a vacuum. Whatever you meant in your head, it's going to provoke a reaction in other people that are hearing it.
What others have said about cutltural difference is true as well. Apparently it's not a big in the south as well as using the word "fag" is not a big deal in certain circles.
But I also agree with you. We should just keep in mind how what we do or say can effect negative feelings in other people. I guess we just have to be aware of when things are appropriate. (Though I really really hate the word fag)
In addition to that, I just think Reap is way off base with that analogy. Using the word "fag" is not a symbol of one's heritage in any way, shape, or form. It's a slur against a particular group, plain and simple.
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In addition to that, I just think Reap is way off base with that analogy. Using the word "fag" is not a symbol of one's heritage in any way, shape, or form. It's a slur against a particular group, plain and simple.
When I grew up though, it wasn't. It was just something to say to someone you really didn't like. It wasn't about gay or not gay. But, obviously, that meaning of the word has become culturally irrelevant.
At this point, if you try to call someone a fag and say "but I wasn't trying to say anything negative about gay people as a whole," you're either really out of touch or intentionally trying to ruffle features. I don't see how fighting to display the confederate flag as a symbol of heritage when you don't even live in the south is any different.
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I'm kind of surprised that so many people think that the culture of pre-civil war South is defined by slavery. When I think of Southern culture, I think about how we know how to cook a fucking breakfast. The fact that the civil war is strictly defined as pro vs anti slavery is also kind of disconcerting.
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I'm kind of surprised that so many people think that the culture of pre-civil war South is defined by slavery. When I think of Southern culture, I think about how we know how to cook a fucking breakfast. The fact that the civil war is strictly defined as pro vs anti slavery is also kind of disconcerting.
I agree with this. I am not from the south, but I do have a lot of family there and have spent a good amount of time visiting there. I really like the south. It's nice and the people are usually very nice. They have a certain way of living and a different culture. It has nothing to do with racism. There is racism everywhere in the country, not just the south.
The way I see it is you can use the confederate flag to show some southern pride or if you are racist, I'm sure you can find a way to use it in an offensive manor as well. I think it is a huge misconception by northerners that the confederate flag means "I fucking love slavery" to southerners.
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Same here. But whatev. I don't really have a dog in this fight, so I'm willing to leave well enough alone. It's kind of disappointing to have people imply you must be a racist just because you stand up for someone else's right to display something that doesn't have racist connotations.
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The fact that the civil war is strictly defined as pro vs anti slavery is also kind of disconcerting.
But wasn't that the root of the problems? I thought pro vs anti slavery was the reason that states succeeded in the first place.
It's kind of disappointing to have people imply you must be a racist just because you stand up for someone else's right to display something that doesn't have racist connotations.
I don't think anyone was implying that you, anyone else here, or anyone that defends the right to display that was a racist. I'm just not sure if there's a right side. Most who display it don't view it as racist, but at the same time lots of people do view it as a racist symbol regardless of what the displayed intends. Who is right? Is there even a right answer, or is it just cultural differences that'll never be settled?
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Well as far as this kid in the private school, he was in the wrong. This is because its a private school and what they say goes. So that's case closed there. But I think it's wrong for people to look down upon flying a confederate flag. People will always be offended by things. We can't go around banning shit like this.
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The funniest part of this conversation is that most southerners didn't own slaves during the war. The wealthiest Southerners obviously did and wanted to preserve the institution, but it's incorrect to associate the South with racism by default because of that. Legally sanctioned racism was very common in the North during the period in question, too.
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^^ Truth
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Sometimes, a picture (https://www.micetrap.net/shop/catalog/klux-klan-white-power-confederate-rebel-flag-p-584.html) speaks a thousand words.
I'm not saying that the Confederate Flag should be viewed as a symbol of racism. I'm saying thatit's only natural for it to be viewed as a symbol of racism, since it has been blatantly used as a symbol of racism in the past.
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Sometimes, a picture (https://www.micetrap.net/shop/catalog/klux-klan-white-power-confederate-rebel-flag-p-584.html) speaks a thousand words.
I'm not saying that the Confederate Flag should be viewed as a symbol of racism. I'm saying thatit's only natural for it to be viewed as a symbol of racism, since it has been blatantly used as a symbol of racism in the past.
That's such a bullshit picture and you know it. It has white power written all over it. The flag itself is not racist, but when you make it racist it obviously is. I mean holy manipulation there. Sorry that was a shit example.
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I'm not trying to say the flag itself is racist. It isn't. I'm saying people have definitely associated it with racism in very real ways.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederate_flag#Displaying_the_flag
Some groups use the Southern Cross as one of the symbols associated with their organizations, including racist groups such as the Neo-Nazis and the Ku Klux Klan.
https://www.indyposted.com/151948/new-mississippi-license-plate-would-honor-kkk-member/
When people make flags combining the Confederate Flag with the Ku Klux Klan symbol, and the KKK use the Southern Cross as one of their symbols from time to time, and a simple Google search yields plenty of results of KKK member toting the Confederate Flag, is it really surprising that people come to associate the flag with racism?
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The flag is not racist. Yes. Also yes that people find it offensive. But that's because of racist people using that flag. Not the flag's history per se. The only way to make this negative view of the flag leave however, is to keep using it in the correct way and ignore the people who use it for racist means. Then it will start to lose its power as a negative symbol in people's eyes.
A symbol only has the power that people associate onto it. It seems like people just love to perpetuate the negative on things and get offended instead of trying to be open minded and understand the true history and what is really going on with it.
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I don't disagree with you. Everything you said in that post is perfectly logical. I would simply ask why it is so important to hang on to that specific symbol of southern heritage. As someone mentioned earlier in this thread, the southern states had more than one flag.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_of_the_Confederate_States_of_America
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:SC-SovFlag.svg
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:CSA_FLAG_28.11.1861-1.5.1863.svg
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bonnieblue.svg
All of these are listed as flags of Confederate States of America. If you want to have a symbol of southern heritage, and you want it separate from racism, why not choose a symbol of southern heritage that has not been associated with racism? If people didn't stubbornly cling to that one flag as their symbol of heritage, the whole issue could probably be avoided.
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Well that would be up to the southerners to decide. It's just hard to change a symbol to another. That's like saying change the American flag. Or trying to change the national anthem or pledge of allegiance. It's tradition and stuck with us. That's why people are fighting hard to keep their symbol.
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The flag is not racist. Yes. Also yes that people find it offensive. But that's because of racist people using that flag. Not the flag's history per se. The only way to make this negative view of the flag leave however, is to keep using it in the correct way and ignore the people who use it for racist means. Then it will start to lose its power as a negative symbol in people's eyes.
A symbol only has the power that people associate onto it. It seems like people just love to perpetuate the negative on things and get offended instead of trying to be open minded and understand the true history and what is really going on with it.
So you'd be fine with people wearing swastikas in public?
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It's just hard to change a symbol to another.
That's how I see it, too. The thing is, when you boil it down like that, what this debate really comes down to is, people clinging to tradition vs. people trying to avoid offending people. And in my personal opinion, trying to avoid offending people is a nobler cause. That's entirely subjective, granted.
But still, I ask you: is the value of upholding tradition worth the risk of offending people's sensibilities?
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I mean, define the word fine? I don't approve of people being racist. However, people have the right to wear the symbol in a public place.
It also depends on who is wearing it and for what reason. Say, a Hindu or Buddhist person has the symbol on a necklace or something. I wouldn't be offended by it. Well I wouldn't get offended by it even if it was being used offensively but thats another point.
I would think its really bad for someone to wear the Nazi swastika, but I wouldn't get all outraged over it. I would probably just say to myself, man that guy is a fucking dick, and be on my merry way.
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All of these are listed as flags of Confederate States of America. If you want to have a symbol of southern heritage, and you want it separate from racism, why not choose a symbol of southern heritage that has not been associated with racism? If people didn't stubbornly cling to that one flag as their symbol of heritage, the whole issue could probably be avoided.
Because the same people who automatically assume that a symbol of the confederacy is a giant SLAVERY ROCKS! banner would be quick to assume that of any other symbol. If people are content to misunderstand the underlying meaning, and I think that's pretty clear reading through this thread, then the symbol is irreverent.
And I'd have no problem with somebody wearing a swastika around in public. If nothing else, it'd let me know what type of person they are.
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Also there is a big difference between the Nazi swastika, and the other version of it.
I don't really care about offending people. Our whole country is really too fucking bent out of shape over being offensive. Fucking A.
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No it doesn't. The Confederate flag represents southern pride in how the culture of the south differs than in the north. The race card is being thrown at everything nowadays.
Why's that something to be proud of? I'm not proud I'm part of a culture that's different from Southern culture.
The north blows, especially the north east. The winters are awful, the people are two-faced, and everyone is in a rush. They also can't drive for shit. Down south people are more laid back, the food is better, and you can still find a place where you don't always have to lock your door and worry about getting robbed. I've lived in NJ all my life and I hope the north burns when I leave.
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No it doesn't. The Confederate flag represents southern pride in how the culture of the south differs than in the north. The race card is being thrown at everything nowadays.
Why's that something to be proud of? I'm not proud I'm part of a culture that's different from Southern culture.
The north blows, especially the north east. The winters are awful, the people are two-faced, and everyone is in a rush. They also can't drive for shit. Down south people are more laid back, the food is better, and you can still find a place where you don't always have to lock your door and worry about getting robbed. I've lived in NJ all my life and I hope the north burns when I leave.
Lol here we are as northerners trying to defend southern people and their way of life and not trying to generalize, then you come in and say something stupid like that.
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I've lived in NJ all my life
WELL THERE'S YOUR PROBLEM
/adamsavage
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I'm really surprised to find that Southerners think their food is great. I think it's pretty damn terrible.
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I've lived in NJ all my life
As have I. I don't share his sentiments. My post was reiterating that generalizations are stupid. That's one of the whole points of this debate. Although the winters do suck.
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Because the same people who automatically assume that a symbol of the confederacy is a giant SLAVERY ROCKS! banner would be quick to assume that of any other symbol.
Ok, granted. The people who associate 'The Confederacy' with racism... there's not really anything to be done about that. But that's not what I'm talking about. That's people who have a problem with the actual underlying meaning of the symbol, and for them you're right: any symbol of the Confederacy is going to be a problem. But there are also people who have a problem with this specific symbol, because it has associations not only with the Confederacy, not only with just slavery, but with racism in general. And for those people, the symbol is very much so relevant.
I don't really care about offending people. Our whole country is really too fucking bent out of shape over being offensive. Fucking A.
Fair enough, but that's not really an argument. I could say the same thing about tradition. I don't really care about tradition.
The north blows, especially the north east. The winters are awful, the people are two-faced, and everyone is in a rush. They also can't drive for shit. Down south people are more laid back, the food is better, and you can still find a place where you don't always have to lock your door and worry about getting robbed. I've lived in NJ all my life and I hope the north burns when I leave.
:facepalm:
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The confederate flag doesn't stand for racism any more than the ole Stars and Stripes though.
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No it doesn't. The Confederate flag represents southern pride in how the culture of the south differs than in the north. The race card is being thrown at everything nowadays.
Why's that something to be proud of? I'm not proud I'm part of a culture that's different from Southern culture.
The north blows, especially the north east. The winters are awful, the people are two-faced, and everyone is in a rush. They also can't drive for shit. Down south people are more laid back, the food is better, and you can still find a place where you don't always have to lock your door and worry about getting robbed. I've lived in NJ all my life and I hope the north burns when I leave.
Yeah...I spoke with everyone down here in the south, and we dont want you here. Thx.
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Uh, the Civil War started because of States leaving the Union, not slavery. Granted, slavery was a large part of it. The Confederate Flag has everything to do with State's rights and very little (if at all, but there are always THOSE guys who ruin it for the majority) with slavery.
Again, I can always refer people to books if asked. I can't be bothered to source 40-45 great reads on the topic, including many contemporary sources (just for you, rumborak). But, if I have to, please ask.
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Uh, the Civil War started because of States leaving the Union, not slavery. Granted, slavery was a large part of it. The Confederate Flag has everything to do with State's rights and very little (if at all, but there are always THOSE guys who ruin it for the majority) with slavery.
Again, I can always refer people to books if asked. I can't be bothered to source 40-45 great reads on the topic, including many contemporary sources (just for you, rumborak). But, if I have to, please ask.
That's a bit of an understatement. The Civil War had everything to do with preserving the institution of slavery.
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Uh, the Civil War started because of States leaving the Union, not slavery. Granted, slavery was a large part of it. The Confederate Flag has everything to do with State's rights and very little (if at all, but there are always THOSE guys who ruin it for the majority) with slavery.
Again, I can always refer people to books if asked. I can't be bothered to source 40-45 great reads on the topic, including many contemporary sources (just for you, rumborak). But, if I have to, please ask.
That's a bit of an understatement. The Civil War had everything to do with preserving the institution of slavery.
I meant the usage of the Confederate Flag today. Re-read and noticed the error. For the South, slavery was about State's rights. If/When slavery was disbanded, the South's economic structure would be completely destroyed. And it sure as shit did happen.
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Uh, the Civil War started because of States leaving the Union, not slavery.
South Carolina was the first state to succeed because Lincoln was elected. They believed that Lincoln was anti-slavery and in favor of Northern interests.
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Uh, the Civil War started because of States leaving the Union, not slavery.
South Carolina was the first state to succeed because Lincoln was elected. They believed that Lincoln was anti-slavery and in favor of Northern interests.
All it takes a little bit of research.
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:huh:
Are you agreeing with me?
The war was caused by succession. Succession was caused by Lincoln being elected and the restrictions of slavery in the western states. I know that was taking away rights from the states being able to choose for themselves, but it was more the slavery than the principle only because the south's economy greatly depended on the agriculture.
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:huh:
Are you agreeing with me?
The war was caused by succession. Succession was caused by Lincoln being elected and the restrictions of slavery in the western states. I know that was taking away rights from the states being able to choose for themselves, but it was more the slavery than the principle only because the south's economy greatly depended on the agriculture.
I'm agreeing with what's said in here, but not the fact that slavery was the main issue. The economy of the South was the bigger picture, not slavery.
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That's true. Like I said the economy depended on slavery. Had it depended on something else, I'm not sure how much a problem it would've been.
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Is there any point in trying to tease those two apart when they were so inextricably linked? Slavery was integral to their economy, so obviously they were going to oppose anything that would bring down their economy.
rumborak
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No, not really. You're right.
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I really don't see a reason to be offended by one's flying a Confederate flag unless they've actually got racist/prejudiced reasoning behind doing so.
Though, if a school doesn't want that sort of thing, racist undertones or not, students really shouldn't be doing that.
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:huh:
Are you agreeing with me?
The war was caused by succession. Succession was caused by Lincoln being elected and the restrictions of slavery in the western states. I know that was taking away rights from the states being able to choose for themselves, but it was more the slavery than the principle only because the south's economy greatly depended on the agriculture.
Let's not overlook the fact that this thing was brewing for decades before Abe got elected. This situation snowballed and the divisive blow was inevitable. It might well have been Lincoln's abolitionist demeanor that sparked it, but there had to have been the knowledge that confrontation was inevitable due to his election. Still a state's rights issue.
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A state's right issue to keep slaves.
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Guys let's be honest. It was obviously about the money.
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Eh. You can't tell me there weren't a good number of people who wanted to defend their right to own and treat an inferior human being as they pleased. Which is the irony since the same area prides itself with being the most Christian.
rumborak
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Eh. You can't tell me there weren't a good number of people who wanted to defend their right to own and treat an inferior human being as they pleased. Which is the irony since the same area prides itself with being the most Christian.
rumborak
the South also has 9 of the 10 highest divorce rates. Thank you Nevada!
In all seriousness though, it would be nice if they had a different symbol to express their Southern pride, because there is nothing wrong about being proud of where you're from. But as someone else said, its really hard to give a symbol a new meaning, particularly if it has a very negative one attached to it. Swastika history anyone?
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I've done a lot of research on this subject last year. Just cause I wanted to compare the effect the confederate flag has to the NSDAP flag. I'm with the people who're against public display of the flag, it has nothing to do with what the flag originally mean or the history involved, a lot of people associate it with one sensitive part of the country's history that's offensive to Black people. The KKK and other white supremacy groups in the U.S have doubled the damage by consistently using the flag as their own. This (https://youtu.be/HjNkfOEI_LE) is just a small example of how the confederate flag along side the NSDAP flag are used by these groups today and mean the same thing to the common man.
If you display the NSDAP flag and go "Well I'm honoring the party under which the first modern highway was built, initiated the fist animal rights laws, constructed the first universal health care system and without their technology we wouldn't have made it to the moon, etc" and I'll be correct but nobody remembers or cares about any of this, the NSDAP flag is a racist symbol that the common man would only associate with the master race ideology.
How does it work in Germany? Proudly display a NSDAP flag like they do the confederate flag here and you will be arrested and either fined a considerable sum or go to jail for up to three years.If you said Seig Heil in public you go to jail, if you raise your right arm in the NSDAP saluting manner you go to jail and I can go on about these German laws. Mofos are leaving nothing to chance.
Obviously the U.S wouldn't enforce a ban law on displaying anything no matter what it is and that's one up on Germany as an indivisible part of the American identity is this freedom of speech we're really lucky to have. So I agree with whoever is against the display of the confederacy flag but I'm definitely against forcing people not to, like in the case from the OP. I'm even against the kid claiming heritage, he has the right to tell them off and say "This is who I am, fu" and take it to court.
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I live in North Carolina, and have traveled throughout the South all of my life. The only people who fly the Confederate flag are racist assholes. People that really just take pride in their Southern heritage don't bother with flying the flag, because it is a symbol of slavery. You people who say otherwise are fooling yourselves.
Yeah, the Civil War was about states' rights. States' rights to slavery.
I DESPISE the fucking Confederate flag. I view it as the symbol of a defeated nation. It is a symbol of Southern history, yes; everything that is wrong with Southern history.
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I live in North Carolina, and have traveled throughout the South all of my life. The only people who fly the Confederate flag are racist assholes.
Along with the entire state of Mississippi and drivers in nine Southern states.
(https://www.benmeadows.com/images/xl/Mississippi-State-Flag-3H-BEN-_i_2NEK6_AL01.jpg)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/c1/LAplateSonsOfConfederate.jpg)
As luck would have it, we live in a place that affords one the right to be an asshole.
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Oh yes, certainly.
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And other people have the right to tell them that they are being assholes. :)
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"I consider flags to be symbols, and I leave symbols to the symbol-minded."
- George Carlin
I don't agree 100% with that statement, but captures how I feel about this flag issue.
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initiated the fist animal rights laws,
Say wha? What kind of animals are being fisted?
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Wow, that conjures up some disturbing imagery.
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Wow, that conjures up some disturbing imagery.
Which is only one-click away on Google! :)
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:lol
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I think I'll get a tattoo of a vagina, that way I can go around telling everyone that I'm proud of where I came from.
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I think I'll get a tattoo of a vagina, that way I can go around telling everyone that I'm proud of where I came from.
:lol
I just think that today it's hard to say the Confederate flag stands for racism. But, I live in Northern Michigan and our black population can be counted on our hands (don't even need my feet to count them!).
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I just think that today it's hard to say the Confederate flag stands for racism. But, I live in Northern Michigan and our black population can be counted on our hands (don't even need my feet to count them!).
Why do you think it's hard to say that? Certainly no one currently flying it fought in the Confederate army. They never lived through the time symbolized by the flag. The Confederate Flag is NOT a symbol of the South in general; the Confederacy only existed for a few years. Those few years are all that could possibly be symbolized by the flag in regards to Southern culture.
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I didn't say that.
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I didn't say that.
Fixed. :biggrin:
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:lol
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It's most definitely not a symbol of racism.
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It's most definitely not a symbol of racism.
It baffles me how anyone could think this.
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It's most definitely not a symbol of racism.
It baffles me how anyone could think this.
Me too.
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I think the answer to that is simple:
"It doesn't make me/people I know think of racism, therefore it doesn't represent racism."
I'm not saying I agree with that, but I think that's the logic that's going on here.
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I think the answer to that is simple:
"It doesn't make me/people I know think of racism, therefore it doesn't represent racism."
I'm not saying I agree with that, but I think that's the logic that's going on here.
That's not logic, that's stupidity.
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It is an emotional issue. Logic can go out the window when dealing with strong emotions, regardless of the emotions being "right" or "wrong".
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I think the answer to that is simple:
"It doesn't make me/people I know think of racism, therefore it doesn't represent racism."
I'm not saying I agree with that, but I think that's the logic that's going on here.
That's not logic, that's stupidity.
And that's pointless condescension, as well as just plain simple mindedness. It's a symbol. People ascribe values to symbols. Just because you associate it with racism doesn't mean that it is always intended as such. Likewise, racist assholes using it as such doesn't dictate it's overall meaning. Frankly, I'd say it's largely up to the person displaying it what the intended meaning is, and while plenty of people might want to assume something, that doesn't mean they're right.
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It really comes down to intent versus the actual effect. Kind of like the colleges who use Indian mascots and say "we do it it honor the native population of our area" while the Indians say "we don't feel honored by this." There may be people who fly the Confederate flag without a thought of racism, but there are tons of people who view it as being a racist symbol.
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Lets be honest here. The overwhelming majority of people displaying this flag do so not for purely racist reasons, or to support the confederacy.
It is displayed by posers that want to be identified as the southern Good Ole Boy redneck type. It is no different than the 20 yr old white kid that lives at home and works at Wendys...and dresses/acts like he is a full on gangsta thug.
Wannabe posers wanting to be identified as belonging to a certain group. It is highly unlikely that most who display the flag have any clue as to its history.
But on the other side, the bad apples in that Good Ole Boy group are blatantly racist. And many of that group, real or posers, definitely act racist. I can easily see how that flag can be thought of as racist by some.
Go talk to that Good Ole Boy with the flag in the back of the pick up......I have.....Im related to some.....they may not show it in certain scenarios, but many/most are racist to varying degrees.
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I think the answer to that is simple:
"It doesn't make me/people I know think of racism, therefore it doesn't represent racism."
I'm not saying I agree with that, but I think that's the logic that's going on here.
That's not logic, that's stupidity.
And that's pointless condescension, as well as just plain simple mindedness. It's a symbol. People ascribe values to symbols. Just because you associate it with racism doesn't mean that it is always intended as such. Likewise, racist assholes using it as such doesn't dictate it's overall meaning. Frankly, I'd say it's largely up to the person displaying it what the intended meaning is, and while plenty of people might want to assume something, that doesn't mean they're right.
Symbol is about communicating without language. It isn't just up to the person displaying the symbol, it is a two-way street.
And eric, you are exactly right.
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I think the answer to that is simple:
"It doesn't make me/people I know think of racism, therefore it doesn't represent racism."
I'm not saying I agree with that, but I think that's the logic that's going on here.
That's not logic, that's stupidity.
And that's pointless condescension, as well as just plain simple mindedness. It's a symbol. People ascribe values to symbols. Just because you associate it with racism doesn't mean that it is always intended as such. Likewise, racist assholes using it as such doesn't dictate it's overall meaning. Frankly, I'd say it's largely up to the person displaying it what the intended meaning is, and while plenty of people might want to assume something, that doesn't mean they're right.
Yup.
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Even if you're allowed to use a certain symbol, you can't just ignore a meaning that the majority of people associate with it. Fly the flag if you want, but be aware that many, many people interpret it and those who fly it a certain way.
You can't just ignore the majority view because you disagree with it. I'm not going to walk around with an image of a swastika, and then feign ignorance when people get offended. Sure, the swastika was a symbol of Hinduism, and many other things, before it gained its more notorious reputation, but it DOES carry that negative interpretation now for most people. Even if my intent was entirely based around one of the innocent uses of the symbol, I know damn well what it means to most people.
A person may fly the confederate flag solely because they're proud of living in the south, without intending anything racist. That doesn't change the fact that most people do consider it a racist symbol, and it's well known that it has that reputation. Yes, you have the freedom to display it, but it isn't unreasonable for people to be offended if you do.
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...but the vast majority of people in the US would instantly associate it with a slave culture.
I don't think this is true at all.
....It is. Drive through a black neighborhood with that flag waving from your truck. See how long you last.
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...but the vast majority of people in the US would instantly associate it with a slave culture.
I don't think this is true at all.
....It is. Drive through a black neighborhood with that flag waving from your truck. See how long you last.
I think it is more thought of these days as generically racist, not specifically related to slave culture.
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...but the vast majority of people in the US would instantly associate it with a slave culture.
I don't think this is true at all.
....It is. Drive through a black neighborhood with that flag waving from your truck. See how long you last.
I think it is more thought of these days as generically racist, not specifically related to slave culture.
There's probably a reason I almost never see the Battle Flag or its likeness in Atlanta.
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LOL...yeah, probably doesnt pop up too much in Compton or Harlem either.
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It only pops up in more rural areas with mostly conservative white people.
That's my guess for the majority anyway.
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It only pops up in more rural areas with mostly conservative white people.
That's my guess for the majority anyway.
Yes, this is correct.
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I never thought about it as a regional thing, but it makes sense if that's the case.