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General => Archive => Political and Religious => Topic started by: Ħ on January 18, 2012, 11:49:10 PM
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So I'm part of this men's group (Christian group) where we talk about lust issues. We keep each other accountable from basically four things:
1) Sex/being too sexual with relationship partners
2) Pornography
3) Masturbation
4) Checking out girls
I'm scratching my head because lots of these issues are not totally addressed in the Bible. I am quite confused, so forgive me for my naive questions.
1) Premarital sex is an obvious no-no. But then again, what really is marriage? Is it legal marriage? Must it involve a wedding? Can it just be consensual "Oh, we're engaged but we're pretty much married so let's do it"?
2) I've struggled with this at times, especially in high school and early college, but not really anymore. All Jesus really says is not to look at a woman with lust in our heart. So...playing devil's advocate, what's the protocol on cartoon pornography, or even pornographic audio files?
3) Is this actually ever condemned? I don't think the Bible mentions this at all. But is it a sin to "fantasize" while you're doing it? Does that fall under the "look at a woman with lust" category?
4) Of course, checking out girls I'm pretty sure fits the lust category. But where exactly is the line? If we look in someone's eyes and our heart skips a beat, is that too far? Or is it just when we check out their assets from afar?
Sorry if these questions are a little uncomfortable....hopefully we can have some mature discussion. My stance right now is just not to risk anything. But masturbation sure helps to subdue sexual urges, and that's the issue I'm a little more confused about.
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Oh wow. Uh.
Number 4 - Thinking a woman is attractive, beautiful etc. cannot be lust. No way. I believe that is more to think about wanting to hit it.
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the clearest picture I have found in my study of Scripture on the subject is that intercourse is what creates a marriage. From the "one flesh" picture of Gen 2, to "entering the tent" representing marriage (can't remember who it was right now), to I Cor 6 and the analogy that sex with a prostitute is becoming "one flesh" with her.
the wedding ceremony and marriage license is of men.
ideally, what I believe is God's view of how marriage begins doesn't play out very often in man's view of marriage.
nevertheless, I still think this picture demonstrates that sexual intercourse is reserved for husband and wife, and even potentially initiates the marriage.
as for the questions regarding lust, it certainly is a fine line. I don't think "heart skipping a beat" falls under the category, but it seems to be a matter of conscience when we cross that line.
I tend to think of masturbation as many other things of life. there is nothing wrong with it innately, but there are principles that can be crossed to where it becomes harmful to us spiritually.
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1) Premarital sex is an obvious no-no. But then again, what really is marriage? Is it legal marriage? Must it involve a wedding? Can it just be consensual "Oh, we're engaged but we're pretty much married so let's do it"?
2) I've struggled with this at times, especially in high school and early college, but not really anymore. All Jesus really says is not to look at a woman with lust in our heart. So...playing devil's advocate, what's the protocol on cartoon pornography, or even pornographic audio files?
3) Is this actually ever condemned? I don't think the Bible mentions this at all. But is it a sin to "fantasize" while you're doing it? Does that fall under the "look at a woman with lust" category?
4) Of course, checking out girls I'm pretty sure fits the lust category. But where exactly is the line? If we look in someone's eyes and our heart skips a beat, is that too far? Or is it just when we check out their assets from afar?
1) I would think as far as God is concerned marriage is a public declaration of a union. I doubt God cares much whether it is validated by any particular government. Whether an engaged couple can be considered "close enough", I don't know. It would be easy to argue that you've committed to each other for life at that point, but it would really depend on the couple and what was in their hearts.
2) I would imagine that audio, drawings, etc are still wrong. You're still lusting after something and are likely picturing something in your head.
3) I don't think masturbation is wrong in all circumstances, but it's hard to separate it from lust. I've always wondered if it's wrong to lust after your wife, which I'd imagine most men do.
4) To me the line is crossed when you move from "wow that girl's attractive" to "man, I'd love to get me some of that." Looking at someone attractive and having your heart skip a beat is a reflex, not a conscious action.
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So I'm part of this men's group (Christian group) where we talk about lust issues. .
Why? In my experience, these kinds of groups can be helpful for people with addictions to sex or pornography, but if you have no such issues, I think they are a waste of time and looking for problems where there may not be any.
I'm just sayin'.
Oh, and masturbation is fine, there is nothing in the Bible against masturbation. Wank away all you want with impunity.
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You keep each other "accountable"?! Are you guys doing a mini-Spanish Inquisition?
rumborak
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You keep each other "accountable"?! Are you guys doing a mini-Spanish Inquisition?
rumborak
No more like a AA kinda thing where we just be open with each other.
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I am sooooo happy I can go home and just rub one off. No Bible breathing down my neck, nobody holding me accountable for what I do with my own body. Just a happy and stress-relieved atheist.
rumborak
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Well, I'm doing pre-marriage counseling and the pastor (scientists, other people and well, everyone) said that the average man basically needs to nut once every three days. If you never nut, you end up having problems. Just keep it classy.
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I've always found condemnation of lust to be incredibly unfair because it really is just a primal human instinct. You see someone that your body tells you would make a good mate and mentally you want to mate with them. To feel guilty and sinful because of that is absurd. At least that's how I've always known the Biblical definition of lust so maybe I have it all wrong.
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I am sooooo happy I can go home and just rub one off. No Bible breathing down my neck, nobody holding me accountable for what I do with my own body. Just a happy and stress-relieved agnostic.
rumborak
Me :hat
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I am sooooo happy I can go home and just rub one off. No Bible breathing down my neck, nobody holding me accountable for what I do with my own body. Just a happy and stress-relieved atheist.
rumborak
I don't have to be a part of the group. It's what I'm choosing to do.
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I doubt leaving the group will be met with a mere "cool, ttyl".
rumborak
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Yeah, joining a men's group where you discuss touching yourself sounds like something you're stuck in for life.
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I doubt leaving the group will be met with a mere "cool, ttyl".
rumborak
Sure. They're pretty cool. They're my friends.
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In my experience, these kinds of groups can be helpful for people with addictions to sex or pornography, but if you have no such issues, I think they are a waste of time and looking for problems where there may not be any.
As with a lot of things, I think whether there is any value in it depends on the specific group and its members. (Eh-heh-heh-heh! I said "member" in a thread about wanking. :bnb: )
But I respectfully disagree that they are a waste of time and "looking for problems where there may not be any." IMO, the man who has no problem with lusting, immorality, or purity is the exception rather than the rule. Other than perhaps idolatry, that is the problem discussed the most in the entire Bible. Sex is an incredibly powerful desire, and the temptation to use it improperly has been rampant since the beginning of time.
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^Yeah. It is insane how passion can overtake reason.
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Oh, and masturbation is fine, there is nothing in the Bible against masturbation. Wank away all you want with impunity.
DTF's resident Bible scholar.
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I can't give you opinions that are Christian based, since I am not a Christian, but here is my two cents on the subjects...
Marriage- I feel that it is a lifetime commitment to a woman, and if you're at that point with a lady, I think it's OK to get to the loving.
Pornography- If you come across it, you were probably looking for it. If you come across it by accident anyways, and keep looking, your natural desires and curiosities are acting up. I am no saint in this category, and have given more than my fair share of coinage to the industry. Always remember that most of what is portrayed in porn is FICTION. Almost all of the women that I have been with don't love being spanked, or liked facials, or most of the other BS that porn portrays as the kind of sex you need to be having to be considered a man. My best sex always came with woman whom I loved and was familiar with. The familiarity brings about the unified passion that makes sex truly great, and that only comes with a long term relationship. If you buy into the bullshit of porn, you will be disillusioned by the reality of the loving, and it will hinder your sexuality.
Masturbating- 99% of men admit to spanking it, the other 1% are lying. Just try not to break any records, and remember what I said about porn, keep it in the real world.
Checking out girls- If God doesn't want me to check out women, why did he make them so fucking hot. Always keep in mind that that fine piece of ass is someone's daughter/sister/niece/mother/aunt/etc. The moment you forget that she is a person, that is when I feel you are losing perspective.
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I am sooooo happy I can go home and just rub one off. No Bible breathing down my neck, nobody holding me accountable for what I do with my own body. Just a happy and stress-relieved atheist.
rumborak
Just a week Self, dominant ego and no self-sovereignty. No thanks.
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I have yet to be called self-dominant or egotistical by anyone in real life. And hey, at least I don't need to start soul-searching threads once a week. So, with all due respect, I think I'm the more balanced of the two of us.
rumborak
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I respectfully disagree that they are a waste of time and "looking for problems where there may not be any." IMO, the man who has no problem with lusting, immorality, or purity is the exception rather than the rule. Other than perhaps idolatry, that is the problem discussed the most in the entire Bible. Sex is an incredibly powerful desire, and the temptation to use it improperly has been rampant since the beginning of time.
Sure, but joining a group therapy session seems pointless unless there is an actual problem. He even compared it to AA. Do non-alchoholics go to AA meetings? What would be the point? That's all I'm saying.
Oh, and masturbation is fine, there is nothing in the Bible against masturbation. Wank away all you want with impunity.
DTF's resident Bible scholar.
I do what I can.
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I can't give you opinions that are Christian based, since I am not a Christian, but here is my two cents on the subjects...
Marriage- I feel that it is a lifetime commitment to a woman, and if you're at that point with a lady, I think it's OK to get to the loving.
Pornography- If you come across it, you were probably looking for it. If you come across it by accident anyways, and keep looking, your natural desires and curiosities are acting up. I am no saint in this category, and have given more than my fair share of coinage to the industry. Always remember that most of what is portrayed in porn is FICTION. Almost all of the women that I have been with don't love being spanked, or liked facials, or most of the other BS that porn portrays as the kind of sex you need to be having to be considered a man. My best sex always came with woman whom I loved and was familiar with. The familiarity brings about the unified passion that makes sex truly great, and that only comes with a long term relationship. If you buy into the bullshit of porn, you will be disillusioned by the reality of the loving, and it will hinder your sexuality.
Masturbating- 99% of men admit to spanking it, the other 1% are lying. Just try not to break any records, and remember what I said about porn, keep it in the real world.
Checking out girls- If God doesn't want me to check out women, why did he make them so fucking hot. Always keep in mind that that fine piece of ass is someone's daughter/sister/niece/mother/aunt/etc. The moment you forget that she is a person, that is when I feel you are losing perspective.
really good advice in there lonestar
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As a non-Christian... I must say.. a talking group where men talk about their masturbation habits and their 'lust' for random woman sounds like one of the most awkward/creepiest/depressing things ever.
Just a week Self, dominant ego and no self-sovereignty. No thanks.
and that made me laugh.
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I am sooooo happy I can go home and just rub one off. No Bible breathing down my neck, nobody holding me accountable for what I do with my own body. Just a happy and stress-relieved atheist.
rumborak
Just a week Self, dominant ego and no self-sovereignty. No thanks.
not cool, Andy. consider this a warning
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As a non-Christian... I must say.. a talking group where men talk about their masturbation habits and their 'lust' for random woman sounds like one of the most awkward/creepiest/depressing things ever.
No non-Christian requirement, there.
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I have yet to be called self-dominant or egotistical by anyone in real life. And hey, at least I don't need to start soul-searching threads once a week. So, with all due respect, I think I'm the more balanced of the two of us.
rumborak
Sorry I meant that's the result of doing what you say for me (hence no thanks), as I see it. I didn't say you were egotistical. I said:
a "week [sic] Self" - i.e. authentic self
", dominant ego" - the small self being dominantI am sooooo happy I can go home and just rub one off. No Bible breathing down my neck, nobody holding me accountable for what I do with my own body. Just a happy and stress-relieved atheist.
rumborak
Just a week Self, dominant ego and no self-sovereignty. No thanks.
not cool, Andy. consider this a warning
Please read the above.
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I respectfully disagree that they are a waste of time and "looking for problems where there may not be any." IMO, the man who has no problem with lusting, immorality, or purity is the exception rather than the rule. Other than perhaps idolatry, that is the problem discussed the most in the entire Bible. Sex is an incredibly powerful desire, and the temptation to use it improperly has been rampant since the beginning of time.
Sure, but joining a group therapy session seems pointless unless there is an actual problem. He even compared it to AA. Do non-alchoholics go to AA meetings? What would be the point? That's all I'm saying.
Maybe a future Tyler Durden in the making? ;)
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I recall that in Genesis, there was an issue with Onan because he spilled his seed on the ground. some consider that to be a reference against wanking.
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Some need to read more carefully because that wasn't Onan's problem.
https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=29968.msg1166812#msg1166812
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I recall that in Genesis, there was an issue with Onan because he spilled his seed on the ground. some consider that to be a reference against wanking.
Only people who are really against wanking consider it to be against wanking. In fact it's about something completely different as has been explained many times here, fairly recently in fact. Other could explain it better than me.
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Yeah, I'm not sure one way or the other, but if it is in fact against the rules then put me on the down escalator to hell - I have no chance.
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Yeah, I'm not sure one way or the other, but if it is in fact against the rules then put me on the down escalator to hell - I have no chance.
No one does. :)
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I'm scratching my head because lots of these issues are not totally addressed in the Bible. I am quite confused, so forgive me for my naive questions.
The bible was written in the Bronze Age. I get that you want to do the right thing, and respect to you for that, but it is now the 21st century and things have moved on in a lot of ways. I wouldn't get too caught up in scriptural requirements else you'll end up doing your own head in. Oh... and don't read Leviticus... :tup
1) Sex/being too sexual with relationship partners
1) Premarital sex is an obvious no-no. But then again, what really is marriage? Is it legal marriage? Must it involve a wedding? Can it just be consensual "Oh, we're engaged but we're pretty much married so let's do it"?
Personally I think you need to try before you buy, but if you're happy to take the risk of sexual incompatibility then that's your call - just bear in mind the religious views on divorce.. you could be celibate for a very long time. Mind you, some people are fine with that.
2) Pornography
2) I've struggled with this at times, especially in high school and early college, but not really anymore. All Jesus really says is not to look at a woman with lust in our heart. So...playing devil's advocate, what's the protocol on cartoon pornography, or even pornographic audio files?
Lust is the precursor to sexual love - you surely like the looks of a girl before you want to go over there and chat her up, right?
As far as porn goes, that's a whole topic in its own right - I think it's fine as nobody is being exploited. It could be argued that even if the actors/actresses aren't being exploited, the punters are by being made to pay money for it. Big subject. I wouldn't worry about it unduly. Taken to a reductio ad absurdum level, we could end up insisting women wear burkhas so they don't tempt us males. Don't really want to take the Saudi Arabian route do we? Nope.
3) Masturbation
3) Is this actually ever condemned? I don't think the Bible mentions this at all. But is it a sin to "fantasize" while you're doing it? Does that fall under the "look at a woman with lust" category?
My friend's brother is a doctor. He says an empty prostate is a happy prostate. We're all entitled to a shot (har har!) at good health, so fap away regardless. There's too much guilt associated with masturbation.
4) Checking out girls
4) Of course, checking out girls I'm pretty sure fits the lust category. But where exactly is the line? If we look in someone's eyes and our heart skips a beat, is that too far? Or is it just when we check out their assets from afar?
Meh... covered in point 2.
Someone once said that religion is guilt with different holidays - there's a fair amount of truth in that. As long as you try to live to the golden rule that is the basis of most cultures, you'll do fine. Don't worry about it.
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I want to bring in something from another thread:
Any sexual contact outside marriage is sin. Any sex within marriage is awesome.
What qualifies as "sexual"? Oral sex? Kissing? Kissing too much? Hugging? Any physical touch whatsoever? As an unmarried person, should I avoid all these things just to be safe?
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I want to bring in something from another thread:
Any sexual contact outside marriage is sin. Any sex within marriage is awesome.
What qualifies as "sexual"? Oral sex? Kissing? Kissing too much? Hugging? Any physical touch whatsoever? As an unmarried person, should I just avoid all these things just to be safe?
This is the only thing you need to watch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_Oj0-splZw
But no, I'd imagine you're safe with kissing/hugging.
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:lol
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As a person you should avoid the Bible, just to be safe.
Seriously. I absolutely fail to see how, with all that stuff in this thread, your personal God is making you a better person. All I see is people here with their rampant paranoia of not offending their deity. I don't think it comes particularly as a surprise that religious zealots have the most skeletons in the closet. If your very *being* is an offense to God, it's time to shop for another God. Lots around, and some really cool ones too, especially some who don't consider your very body an offense to them.
rumborak
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First of all, if it's true, then you have to suck it up even if you've been brought up otherwise.
Second, I don't think the Christian God is "offended" by our sins because our sins have been covered for. I think God is looking out for our best interests and sometimes asks us to do things we don't understand. But I can see the merits of abstaining from sex before marriage. That's easy to see. It magnifies your love for one another.
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Let's take this from a naturalist angle. No matter whether God had his hands in it or not, humans need to survive as a species. Evolution (or God) facilitates this by making humans as fertile as possible, with the result of men producing sperm in their testicles at a constant rate.That stuff comes out. One way or the other.
So, if your God requires you to gross the fuck out of everyone around you by smileing into your blankets regularly, your God sucks. Either at designing you, or at living with His design.
rumborak
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Oh so you're talking about masturbation, which most of this in thread think is biblically approved of.
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I think it's all reabsorbed mostly.
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"Mostly". The remainder is beheld by your mom when she washes the blankets.
rumborak
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Oh so you're talking about masturbation, which most of this in thread think is biblically approved of.
Eh. New times, new biblical interpretations. 100 years ago ,had there been an internet, this discussion would have included masturbation.
rumborak
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I want to bring in something from another thread:
Any sexual contact outside marriage is sin. Any sex within marriage is awesome.
What qualifies as "sexual"? Oral sex? Kissing? Kissing too much? Hugging? Any physical touch whatsoever? As an unmarried person, should I just avoid all these things just to be safe?
This is the only thing you need to watch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_Oj0-splZw
But no, I'd imagine you're safe with kissing/hugging.
Dude, what the fuck was that?
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GIMME DAT CHRISTIAN SIDE HUG (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_side_hug)
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GIMME DAT CHRISTIAN SIDE HUG (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_side_hug)
The "gun shot" sample in the background was a nice touch. "We down wit Christ luv - BANG BANG BANG BANG! SIREN!"
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Setting aside for a moment what your body is likely telling you you want to do, what do you think the answer is? How do you read the Scripture on that?
How do you think 1 Corinthians 6:18 fits in (if at all)?
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Setting aside for a moment what your body is likely telling you you want to do, what do you think the answer is? How do you read the Scripture on that?
How do you think 1 Corinthians 6:18 fits in (if at all)?
Is that directed to me? It seems like that passage equates sexual immorality with becoming one flesh, which I'm inclined to believe is coitus. Am I missing something?
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Oops. Yes. Was responding to this:
I want to bring in something from another thread:
Any sexual contact outside marriage is sin. Any sex within marriage is awesome.
What qualifies as "sexual"? Oral sex? Kissing? Kissing too much? Hugging? Any physical touch whatsoever? As an unmarried person, should I avoid all these things just to be safe?
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So...am I correct?
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I don't believe so.
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12 Everything is permissible for me— but not everything is beneficial. Everything is permissible for me— but I will not be mastered by anything.
Okay, so I can see how this can used to say you ought not to let things go out of control, like letting masturbation become an addiction. Or letting a relationship with a girlfriend/boyfriend have too much emphasis on physical interaction rather than spiritual interaction.
The body is not meant for sexual immorality, but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body.
Makes sense, but it begs the question: what is sexual immorality?
5 Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ himself? Shall I then take the members of Christ and unite them with a prostitute? Never! 16 Do you not know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said, The two will become one flesh.
This is where I think that Paul equates sexuality with coming together/unification/becoming one flesh, which (correct me if I'm wrong) is coitus and nothing else. Still doesn't solve the kissing/hugging/etc problem.
18 Flee from sexual immorality.
Okay, I can see how you can use this in conjunction with verse 12 to say "better safe than sorry, because we don't want to push it." But it doesn't explicitly condemn something like kissing. It would be the equivalent of saying drinking a chocolate shake from In N Out makes you guilty of gluttony.
I'm not really sure what you're getting at. Could you be more explicit?
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Attending a weekly cult akin to AA to micromanage biological urges sounds exhausting and unnecessarily time-consuming, but whatever floats your boat.
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Checking out girls- If God doesn't want me to check out women, why did he make them so fucking hot.
/thread
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GIMME DAT CHRISTIAN SIDE HUG (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_side_hug)
My ex went crazy at me for just trying that.
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(https://img.imgur.com/l2cKk.jpg)
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5 Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ himself? Shall I then take the members of Christ and unite them with a prostitute? Never! 16 Do you not know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said, The two will become one flesh.
This is where I think that Paul equates sexuality with coming together/unification/becoming one flesh, which (correct me if I'm wrong) is coitus and nothing else. Still doesn't solve the kissing/hugging/etc problem.
Where does it say it is only referring to coitus? I don't think the Bible parses out various sexual acts.
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El Jonno, how is that helpful at all?
Hef, I guess what I'd have to do is look at all the instances of people coming together as one flesh and use contextual clues to figure out what that means.
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Hef, I guess what I'd have to do is look at all the instances of people coming together as one flesh and use contextual clues to figure out what that means.
Be my guest, but like I said, I don't think the Bible differentiates at all.
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Hef, I guess what I'd have to do is look at all the instances of people coming together as one flesh and use contextual clues to figure out what that means.
Be my guest, but like I said, I don't think the Bible differentiates at all.
That doesn't help me at all. That implies that you know the meaning of the word "sexual", and it's a simple matter of asking yourself is something is sexual before deciding to incorporate it into your relationship. That's good and all, and it's what I want to do as well, but I'm still lost at the definition of "sexual". We obviously have an intuitive human sense of what is "sexual", but I don't know if that matches up with what the bible defines as "sexual".
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Hef, I guess what I'd have to do is look at all the instances of people coming together as one flesh and use contextual clues to figure out what that means.
Be my guest, but like I said, I don't think the Bible differentiates at all.
That doesn't help me at all. That implies that you know the meaning of the word "sexual", and it's a simple matter of asking yourself is something is sexual before deciding to incorporate it into your relationship. That's good and all, and it's what I want to do as well, but I'm still lost at the definition of "sexual". We obviously have an intuitive human sense of what is "sexual", but I don't know if that matches up with what the bible defines as "sexual".
I'm saying that the Bible doesn't define the word "sexual." What you are looking for isn't there.
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El Jonno, how is that helpful at all?
It's an atheist going to heaven and god is going to round up some sluts. The thread is about keeping control of your sexual urges. It doesn't help I thought it would just be a lighthearted thing to post.
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Hef, I guess what I'd have to do is look at all the instances of people coming together as one flesh and use contextual clues to figure out what that means.
Be my guest, but like I said, I don't think the Bible differentiates at all.
That doesn't help me at all. That implies that you know the meaning of the word "sexual", and it's a simple matter of asking yourself is something is sexual before deciding to incorporate it into your relationship. That's good and all, and it's what I want to do as well, but I'm still lost at the definition of "sexual". We obviously have an intuitive human sense of what is "sexual", but I don't know if that matches up with what the bible defines as "sexual".
I'm saying that the Bible doesn't define the word "sexual." What you are looking for isn't there.
Yeshua4 and bosk1 have implied that there is...I'd be interested in hearing what they'd have to say on this.
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I am with hef, I can't think of any place that makes a distinction of sexual acts.
the most obvious allusion is in I Cor 6 with "becoming one flesh with her" which seems to speak specifically of intercourse.
obviously I would draw lines of other things that fall under "sexual immorality" (ie. oral sex, fondling of intimate areas, etc) but I can't say I can point to a specific text that delineates it that carefully
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(https://img.imgur.com/l2cKk.jpg)
This post is now the holy text of my religion. I will print it out, and study it deeply. It will be the foundation and direction for my existence. Thank you.
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Hef, I guess what I'd have to do is look at all the instances of people coming together as one flesh and use contextual clues to figure out what that means.
Be my guest, but like I said, I don't think the Bible differentiates at all.
That doesn't help me at all. That implies that you know the meaning of the word "sexual", and it's a simple matter of asking yourself is something is sexual before deciding to incorporate it into your relationship. That's good and all, and it's what I want to do as well, but I'm still lost at the definition of "sexual". We obviously have an intuitive human sense of what is "sexual", but I don't know if that matches up with what the bible defines as "sexual".
I'm saying that the Bible doesn't define the word "sexual." What you are looking for isn't there.
Yeshua4 and bosk1 have implied that there is...I'd be interested in hearing what they'd have to say on this.
I thought christian guidelines were supposed to make forming relationships leading to marriage easier. But if as Bosk says that no sexual contact is allowed then how do you even go about explaining this to the woman without making her feel you're not interested or even gay?
It means no activity which could be felt as sexual or could make sexual contact more likely.
- no kissing
- no hugging
- no spending any length of time alone in private away from others
- potentially being chaperoned
- no inviting the girl around to your house
- potentially not staying out late so that your girlfriend doesnt have to walk home at night e..g in a big city where you live a long distance apart.
How for God's sake are you supposed to form a romantic sexual relationship without even being able to show physical warmth? I imagine even women at your own church would struggle to believe you're not uninterested in women if you tried to agree on all the above.
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The women at my church are 100% in agreement when it comes to no premarital sex of any kind, but the majority of them are probably okay with kissing and hugging, probably not fondling...I bet some would be down with not kissing until marriage but some might not be. I don't know man.
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Reading this thread is so surreal. It feels like it's made in the 16th century or so...
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The women at my church are 100% in agreement when it comes to no premarital sex of any kind, but the majority of them are probably okay with kissing and hugging, probably not fondling...I bet some would be down with not kissing until marriage but some might not be. I don't know man.
Eh, you've never been around a horny woman, then.
"But, Mister! I dare say I shan't be fondled!"
"Madam, I would love to place thy hands upon thine beautiful breasts! If only but for a moment"
"OH, MISTER! TOUCH EVERYTHING"
Bitches like 16th century talk.
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I'm asking a question that assumes the existence of objective moral values. Why do you think it would matter to me whether or not they acted this way 500 years ago?
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It's kinda hard to argue for an objective moral standard for sexuality when modern Western swim wear would have been considered whore attire not too long ago. Or asking a guy out. Or asking him to park with you.
rumborak
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The bible we're reading today is basically the same bible that was read centuries ago. I really don't care what culture has to say. I can read, and I can do my best to not read modern culture into the text. You say that that's exactly what they said they'd do back then. Does that preclude me from making a decision for myself? No.
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Yeah, but a book is as much about the reader as it is about the writer. One is *always* projecting one's context into what one reads. How else do you explain the vastly different interpretations on sexuality over the millennia? You can not possibly be so vain to think that you are the first to arrive at the correct interpretation.
rumborak
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Yeah, but a book is as much about the reader as it is about the writer. One is *always* projecting one's context into what one reads. How else do you explain the vastly different interpretations on sexuality over the millennia? You can not possibly be so vain to think that you are the first to arrive at the correct interpretation.
rumborak
No, I'm not. But I'm trying my best to not project my instilled values into the text. I will, inevitably, but I can't just close the book and say that there's no hope in me ever knowing anything.
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That is a very extreme overreaction to the opposite. The simple realization that there are many "correct" ways to read the same thing would probably be more reasonable.
rumborak
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That is a very extreme overreaction to the opposite. The simple realization that there are many "correct" ways to read the same thing would probably be more reasonable.
rumborak
Well, I'd say that there is one correct way, and that we all have slightly blurred vision.
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That is a very extreme overreaction to the opposite. The simple realization that there are many "correct" ways to read the same thing would probably be more reasonable.
rumborak
Well, I'd say that there is one correct way, and that we all have slightly blurred vision.
Love that...holds truth in some many things
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That is a very extreme overreaction to the opposite. The simple realization that there are many "correct" ways to read the same thing would probably be more reasonable.
rumborak
Well, I'd say that there is one correct way, and that we all have slightly blurred vision.
The logical outcome of this approach would be a lack of clarity on the part of the author.
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If you can't do physical things in a Christian relationshp it's hard to see how you can be more than friends unless you tell the other person about your sexual feelings.
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That is a very extreme overreaction to the opposite. The simple realization that there are many "correct" ways to read the same thing would probably be more reasonable.
rumborak
Well, I'd say that there is one correct way, and that we all have slightly blurred vision.
The logical outcome of this approach would be a lack of clarity on the part of the author.
or that a part of the joy of the search is the journey looking for it
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That is a very extreme overreaction to the opposite. The simple realization that there are many "correct" ways to read the same thing would probably be more reasonable.
rumborak
Well, I'd say that there is one correct way, and that we all have slightly blurred vision.
The logical outcome of this approach would be a lack of clarity on the part of the author.
or that a part of the joy of the search is the journey looking for it
But that doesn't have anything to do with logic.
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how would you explain the holy spirit, for example, with logic?
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Oh, and masturbation is fine, there is nothing in the Bible against masturbation. Wank away all you want with impunity.
Bzzz...
Romans 6:12. Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts.
Corinthians 6:18 Flee sexual immorality. Every sin that a man does is outside the body, but he who commits sexual immorality sins against his own body. 19 Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit [who] [is] in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own? 20 For you were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God's.
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You're begging the question. Your assumption is that masturbation is a sin and a form of sexual immortality, which is exactly what we're trying to figure out. Using your logic, I could say that watching cartoons is a sin and a form of sexual immortality, and flip to those to verses and say "Voila! We must flee from cartoons!"
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You're begging the question. Your assumption is that masturbation is a sin and a form of sexual immortality, which is exactly what we're trying to figure out. Using your logic, I could say that watching cartoons is a sin and a form of sexual immortality, and flip to those to verses and say "Voila! We must flee from cartoons!"
You are splitting hairs and taking it to a step where it starts to become paranoia over simply living a moral life. When you walk down the street, do you look at women, have lustful thoughts? If so, should you just stop walking down the street? The problem with taking the quotes above like that is that out of context they work to a point. But like anyone posting bible quotes I would hope the person reading them understands that a redaction criticism is absolutely necessary as well as a praying on the quotes themselves to ask and understand what exactly is being said to me. I would ask you to pray on the quotes and on our questions and ask these questions to God. To answer your question, if watching cartoons causes you to lust and act immoral, I think there are more problems there then the masterbation question itself. ;)
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I think you missed my point. There's a pool of actions that fall into the category of "sexual immorality". Different cultures have different opinions on what those actions are. What I am looking for is exactly what the Bible says those actions are, either through direct command or example. My problem is that some of these actions are discreetly mentioned (premarital intercourse, homosexuality, etc.) and some of these actions are not talked about at all (kissing, masturbation, etc.). So, should our approach be a cautious one that rejects anything that could possibly cross the line, or should our approach be one that is strictly literal? I'm inclined to side with the second option. The first is a slippery slope where virtually anything can qualify for sexual immorality.
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I'm going to quote what I said above again because I know you missed it.
The problem with taking the quotes above like that is that out of context they work to a point. But like anyone posting bible quotes I would hope the person reading them understands that a redaction criticism is absolutely necessary as well as a praying on the quotes themselves to ask and understand what exactly is being said to me. I would ask you to pray on the quotes and on our questions and ask these questions to God.
You *need* to pray on these quotes and *pray* on these issues and have the Bible speak to you on them. There are many things that are not mentioned explictly in the Bible, but we still have clues and ideas that give us the means to deal with them. That's where you are going to have to go. There is no straight forward easy answer to your question.
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But there's a problem there. If I pray about it, and get a :tup from God, but someone else prays about it and get a :tdwn , don't we have a contradiction in moral values that are supposed to be objective and independent of persons trying to follow them?
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so much of the new testament is rooted in principles and the assumption of maturity. we put fences around our yards when our children are young to protect them from danger. as they grow older, they mature and no longer require fences.
the bible does not specifically delinate sexual actions because it is rooted in principles and the assumption of maturity.
kissing or hugging are not sinful. there are principles, however, that would allow them to lead to sexual immorality. maturity sees the danger and uses caution (without a fence saying that kissing is wrong).
other things, though, like intimate touching, oral sex, etc are more obvious, inasmuch as they are always (with extreme exceptions) done in private because people understand it is a private issue. other principles clearly draw attention to the sexual line that is crossed
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how would you explain the holy spirit, for example, with logic?
I wouldn't. But I wasn't aware that we were speaking about the holy spirit.
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so much of the new testament is rooted in principles and the assumption of maturity. we put fences around our yards when our children are young to protect them from danger. as they grow older, they mature and no longer require fences.
the bible does not specifically delinate sexual actions because it is rooted in principles and the assumption of maturity.
kissing or hugging are not sinful. there are principles, however, that would allow them to lead to sexual immorality. maturity sees the danger and uses caution (without a fence saying that kissing is wrong).
other things, though, like intimate touching, oral sex, etc are more obvious, inasmuch as they are always (with extreme exceptions) done in private because people understand it is a private issue. other principles clearly draw attention to the sexual line that is crossed
So it must take some tact and understanding on both parties to be able to pull away when one or both starts to get turned on?
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I imagine that whoever you're with would respect your decision, even if they're turned on. And if they don't, then they're not someone you should be with anyway.