DreamTheaterForums.org Dream Theater Fan Site
General => Archive => Political and Religious => Topic started by: snapple on December 18, 2011, 04:11:38 PM
-
Alright, I'll divide this up into two different sections.
Section 1- For those who are Christians/of belief that it is wrong to swear
How do you feel about swearing? Do you feel it is wrong? Do you feel it ruins your witness? Elaborate your other possible feelings.
Section 2- For those who aren't Christians/of the belief it is wrong to swear
How do you feel about swearing? Do you feel it is wrong? Does you think differently of those who claim to be Christians who swear? Elaborate your other possible feelings.
I'll post my own thoughts on this when I get a little more time to sort it out.
-
All good things in moderation.
That's the short version of how I feel about swearing.
-
Cursing and swearing are fascinating. I don't find anything inherently wrong with cursing. Slurs are a bit more offensive and on my morally questionable list, but plain everyday swears are different. They are more like emotions than words. Some people find them offensive, so I'll avoid saying them around those people avoid making them feel uncomfortable, but I don't think they are wrong.
I know I keep linking to vlogbrothers videos, but they are just so good. Here's an explanation on swearing:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66K65z5lxlk
-
Depends on the setting. If someone at work drops a ton of f-bombs it gets annoying. If I'm out with friends I couldn't care less. At the same time, I get very annoyed when someone uses substitute words like "shoot" or "fudge".
-
I'm not really offended by their usage most the time, because most people just use them as filler words or whatever. If they actually are making a negative message with them, than that's not so good, though it's not the swears as much the actual negative message.
-
I'm not really offended by their usage most the time, because most people just use them as filler words or whatever. If they actually are making a negative message with them, than that's not so good, though it's not the swears as much the actual negative message.
I'm not sure I get your notion completely. You're saying that when people use it superfluously, i.e. as a filler, you're fine with it, but when they use it as intended, i.e. to show extreme dislike, you're not?
Because that's the exact opposite how I feel about it.
E.g. "I need to get fucking to the class right now." -> Fine
"What was fucking wrong with Hitler?!" -> Not fine?
rumborak
-
I think he's saying that when a person says, "I fucking hate you," it's not the swear that's offensive.
-
How do you guys view Christians that swear? Or does it not matter?
-
I don't care. Or I don't let people's religions and speaking patterns alone determine what I think about them completely. Personally I don't find swearing to be morally wrong at all.
-
That swearing is an un-Christian thing to do is also a very American consideration. In Europe swearing is just considered part of language, and is not thought to reflect on one's Christian-ness. My mother is a regular churchgoer, but definitely likes to swear it up.
My view is, if God doesn't like the word "fuck" he shouldn't have invented intercourse, if He doesn't like "shit" he shouldn't have made us poop.
rumborak
-
I think he's saying that when a person says, "I fucking hate you," it's not the swear that's offensive.
That'd be correct.
If someone said that to me dead-seriously, I'd be quite offended. The swear would be adding some impact/emphasis to it, but the actual reason I'd be offended would be the statement itself; with or without the 'fuck', that sort of statement can be offensive.
-
That swearing is an un-Christian thing to do is also a very American consideration. In Europe swearing is just considered part of language, and is not thought to reflect on one's Christian-ness.
I don't know. My grandmother has one of these and they're pretty common:
(https://img.2dehands.be/f/normal/100939550-kader-god-ziet-mij-hier-vloekt-men-niet.jpg)
It says "God sees me, here shall not be cursed" or something like that.
-
As someone else has articulated, it isn't the word that matters but the inten behind its use. Nonsense to think a word itself can be immoral.
I can't imagine why it matters, but I'm Christian. How is a specific relgious group significant here?
-
Meh... it's compressions in the air. It's the intent that worrisome, not the words IMO.
-
I'm a Christian and I have no big problem with swearing. Can't stand people who swear a lot though. It makes you sound really stupid, IMO. The occasional profanity is no big deal.
-
I’m a Christian and feel like I shouldn’t swear or use foul language. Not because it’s a sin or anything ridiculous like that. They’re just words. But, I don’t do it because everyone knows I’m a Christian and I’ve gotten so many complaints from non church goers about Christians being hypocrites. You know what they always say. They go to church and act all spiritual and then the rest of the week live like everyone else. I don’t want to be like those people. I want to be consistent. I don’t want to act one way in church and another way outside of church.
But also, I think it’s a sign of lack of creativity or ignorance. The English language is extremely vast and if you’re intelligent enough you can add way more color to your language. Using a curse word every other sentence just communicates that you’re going for the shock factor and can’t think of a more intelligent or creative way to express it. Sorry, I know that is an unpopular opinion on this board because the F bomb is dropped almost constantly, but that’s just my opinion.
We don’t use foul language in our home and we teach our son not to use it. He’s 12 so the questions come up all the time asking way it’s wrong to say it. We also don’t use more acceptable words like crap. He has to learn how to express himself in his own way rather than spewing out the filthy stuff that he hears on TV, in the movies, or on the radio.
-
^I agree with most of what's been said. Although IMHO, I don't think swearing is a bad thing whatsoever. I agree it makes people sound WAY dumber than they actually could be, and shock factor makes up a big part of why so many people do it, but I'm also the type to see a bad thing with censorship. So, you can see I would have a problem with not being able to say what I want to say, but for the sake of any intelligent argument I'll digress from spewing out my typical vernacular.
As for the OP's questions on religious viewpoints, I could care less if someone swears. I'll admit I'm more of a spiritualist that straight up christian. A lot of what I believe is not cohesive with the Bible, yadda yadda yadda, swearing isn't so bad to me, but the children aspect I have to agree on. Kids shouldn't be raised around cursing all the time. They need to understand why it's deemed bad and what it reflects when it's said. That's just common sense, so I agree with your viewpoint on children.
Edit: I think I use the word 'vernacular' wrong, so I guess I don't need to swear to show how dumb I really am, haha.
-
As a Christian, the only thing I don't say is GD, that is taking the Lord's name in vain, and I just think it is disrespectful. Other than that, they are just words, but I still think that certain words are acceptable in public and some aren't. I think that "hell" "damn" and probably even "shit" are OK in most situations, but "fuck" and most especially "cunt" are words that should only be used in very select company. There are too many people who have no respect for themselves or others and let words like that fly around no matter where they are. It kind of sucks, especially if you are just waiting in line at a store or a movie theater with your wife and kids and have to listen to a couple of neaderthals dropping "fucks" and "cunts" all over the place.
Actually, yesterday I was driving with my 8-year old daughter, and I got a call on my cell phone and accidentally used "fuck." When I got off the phone, I apologized to my daughter for dropping the F-bomb, and she said "Dad, I'm OK with the H-word, next time use that." I was very contrite and agreed to do that. :biggrin:
-
I don't get it... what does saying a word have to do with being a Christian or not?
-
I like swearing.. I swear more than boys do... as long as I don't hurt anyone.... I don't think it has anything to do with religion... idk.. maybe it has... but IMO, there are lots of other things that we need to do to be a good person...
-
It may go back to the Ten Commandments. The 3rd Commandment is "Thou shalt not take my name in vain" but I've seen "Thou shalt not swear" as Number 3.
I don't think they're the same thing at all, but I read it as a child in some modern (at the time) translation of the Bible and it caused some confusion as to what the definition of "swearing" really is. There are some words which are considered profane, but IMO there are other words which are much more offensive. I'm pretty loose with generic F-bombs and other profanity, but people who know me know I'm really pissed if I break Rule #3. The real one.
We used to giggle in Sunday School whenever we'd read a passage with the word "ass" in it, because "ass" is a bad word. Our teacher pointed out that it's how you use the word that determines whether it's bad or not, and I think that just goes back to whether or not you've offended somebody. Maybe it's because Christians are always trying to be politically correct and not offend anybody.
No, that can't be it. I've heard some pretty offensive stuff from people claiming to be Christian.
-
I don't get it... what does saying a word have to do with being a Christian or not?
Most of them don't have anything specifically to do with being a Christian or not.
-
Well, I swear like a sailor. Most people get very confused when they see the Bible verse tattooed on my arm. Granted, its more than just that that caused me to create this topic.
-
They're words. Used for effect. For me, personally, it depends on who I am with. I'm obviously not going to drop too many f-bombs when I'm hanging out with my mother, although she's been known to swear like a sailor (mostly in Portuguese) when she's pissed off.
-
The absolute worst however is people who use homophones of the real thing. E.g. heck, fricking, jebus. "Shut the front door" takes the cake on that one.
rumborak
-
The absolute worst however is people who use homophones of the real thing. E.g. heck, fricking, jebus. "Shut the front door" takes the cake on that one.
rumborak
I think "shut the front door" is pretty funny. :P
-
Is that supposed to be instead of STFU? I'm not familiar with that...
-
there are a number of passages in new testament that speak of avoiding "filthy language" (Col 3:8) or giving thanks and speaking words of grace rather than corrupt communication (Eph 5:4; Col 4:6). obviously, words are nothing and further it is subjective as to what is inappropriate words. nevertheless, the principle at the core is that a Christian is called to use language that demonstrates grace and thankfulness rather than is corrupt. I am hard pressed to figure how language that a culture considers corrupt is acceptable language for a Christian.
-
The absolute worst however is people who use homophones of the real thing. E.g. heck, fricking, jebus. "Shut the front door" takes the cake on that one.
rumborak
Oh yeah?! Well Mother Father, you can just go to Helen's house and shut the front door!!
-
there are a number of passages in new testament that speak of avoiding "filthy language" (Col 3:8) or giving thanks and speaking words of grace rather than corrupt communication (Eph 5:4; Col 4:6). obviously, words are nothing and further it is subjective as to what is inappropriate words. nevertheless, the principle at the core is that a Christian is called to use language that demonstrates grace and thankfulness rather than is corrupt. I am hard pressed to figure how language that a culture considers corrupt is acceptable language for a Christian.
Speaking words of grace, what does that really mean? To me, it sounds like speaking in a positive, polite, respectful way. Is the use of specific words required? Probably not. Then why would specific words be "corrupt" or "bad"?
Suppose someone says "Man, that guy is awesome! I mean, he's cool as fuck!" Suppose you have an opportunity to meet The Pope. You drop to one knee, bow your head piously, and say with great reverence "Your Holiness, I think you're the absolute tits."
Not exactly graceful, but not really "corrupt" communication either, right? I still think it's the message that counts, moreso than the specific words. In fact, it's even possible that the speaker doesn't even realize that his choice of words is not appropriate for "polite company" having never been in such a situation and never being schooled in it. Is it still a sin?
-
there are a number of passages in new testament that speak of avoiding "filthy language" (Col 3:8) or giving thanks and speaking words of grace rather than corrupt communication (Eph 5:4; Col 4:6). obviously, words are nothing and further it is subjective as to what is inappropriate words. nevertheless, the principle at the core is that a Christian is called to use language that demonstrates grace and thankfulness rather than is corrupt. I am hard pressed to figure how language that a culture considers corrupt is acceptable language for a Christian.
Speaking words of grace, what does that really mean? To me, it sounds like speaking in a positive, polite, respectful way. Is the use of specific words required? Probably not. Then why would specific words be "corrupt" or "bad"?
Suppose someone says "Man, that guy is awesome! I mean, he's cool as fuck!" Suppose you have an opportunity to meet The Pope. You drop to one knee, bow your head piously, and say with great reverence "Your Holiness, I think you're the absolute tits."
Not exactly graceful, but not really "corrupt" communication either, right? I still think it's the message that counts, moreso than the specific words. In fact, it's even possible that the speaker doesn't even realize that his choice of words is not appropriate for "polite company" having never been in such a situation and never being schooled in it. Is it still a sin?
in regard to your first question, I forgot about this passage. "Let no corrupt word proceed out of your mouth, but what is good for necessary edification, that it may impart grace to the hearers." (Eph 4:29). That helps define graceful words as those which build up (literal meaning of edification).
as I mentioned, corrupt words are subjective, and your point is well taken that there is the angle that "it's the message that counts." the other passages i mentioned seem pretty clear, though, that a Christian is to use words carefully and to be cautious of how they are viewed culturally.
-
Yeah, that does clarify things a bit.
I'm still gonna go with connotation over denotation, though. I realize that to some Christians, I'm the ultimate cop-out; I tend to interpret the Bible in ways which make the most sense to me. I've seen some really stupid things from people who try to interpret it too literally, and I honestly believe that there's plenty of room for error creep from all the times it's been translated and re-interpreted. In this case, I just can't believe that God would say "There are certain words which are sinful to say" but I can believe that he'd want us to say only good things and avoid saying bad things in general. Yeah, Paul was divinely inspired and all that, but I really think that sometimes you don't just blindly do whatever he wrote in his letters.
-
I can go with that, for the most part
perhaps this is why god created this smiley :censored
-
There is a correlation between cursing and repressed anger and aggression. It is in some cases a "safety" valve for these feelings that we can use without resorting to more physical means. Of course this is just a bit of it. I personally curse like a drunken Irish sailor, but in my work enviornment, it is almost expected of me. As to the religious connection, I'm sure the pope has dropped an f-bomb or two in his life.
-
The absolute worst however is people who use homophones of the real thing. E.g. heck, fricking, jebus. "Shut the front door" takes the cake on that one.
rumborak
Oh yeah?! Well Mother Father, you can just go to Helen's house and shut the front door!!
hahaha good one :)
As to the religious connection, I'm sure the pope has dropped an f-bomb or two in his life.
I could die to see that :)
-
As to the religious connection, I'm sure the pope has dropped an f-bomb or two in his life.
The Pope is from an area in Germany where they swear to a lot of religious imagery. So yeah,most definitely.
rumborak
-
There is a correlation between cursing and repressed anger and aggression. It is in some cases a "safety" valve for these feelings that we can use without resorting to more physical means. Of course this is just a bit of it. I personally curse like a drunken Irish sailor, but in my work enviornment, it is almost expected of me. As to the religious connection, I'm sure the pope has dropped an f-bomb or two in his life.
Based on what I've seen on all those cooking shows my wife watches I think cursing is a requirement for chefs. I'm not sure I'd want to eat their food if they don't curse. :laugh:
-
I thought it wasn't safe to eat their food if they were skinny; they never eat what they make, therefore it must be crap.
-
Growing up, once I reached a point where I could freely curse, I always had the viewpoint of "They're just words! How can they really cause any harm?!" My mother, a fairly religious person, countered with the usual "It's what they mean" angle. I then brought up the point that when you resort to low-carb renditions of cursing like shoot (shit), fudge (fuck), etc. that you're still implying the exact same thing and by definition of her "It's what they mean" stance, it would be cursing. In conclusion, I see absolutely nothing wrong with cursing whatsoever since the two main arguements I always hear, as stated above in this post, basically contradict one another and at the end of the day, only the weak-willed are likely to be influenced by any "foul" language I use.
-
I fucking love cursing.
-
I use substitute words like "crap" instead of "shit" and "freakin'" instead of "fuckin'" for a couple of reasons. One is because to me, they really aren't quite synonyms. I use profanity when there's real emotion behind it, or to denote a more extreme situation. If I come home and see that one of my kids has unwrapped a new toy but left the box and other packing garbage on the floor, I might ask my wife who left that crap on the floor. It's not the end of the world, but it definitely shouldn't be there. If there's literally piles of stuff that you'd really have to be an idiot to not realize that it should be cleaned up, now I'm pissed. Who left all this shit here? What the fuck? Once the guilty party has been summoned to the room, I'll ask them to clean that crap up. No point in swearing in front of the kids.
Which leads to the other reason. There is such a thing as inappropriate words for a given situation. I know some folks my age or younger have no problem swearing in front of their kids, or at their kids. One day their kid is gonna get kicked out of class for swearing at their teacher, maybe not even out of disrespect, but because they've been taught that they're "just words" and honestly had no idea that it was inappropriate. Why? Because of the example set at home by their parents. Yes, it's important to teach kids that adults can and do get away with things that kids can't, and why, but that only comes after they've been taught the right way first. Swear at your kids all the time, and you'll raise kids that swear. Good luck with that.
And there are people who are offended by cursing. Regardless of my personal stance on using profanity, I tone it down and use those "substitute words" in their presence. Why annoy or offend someone, when it's just as easy to shift to a different vocabulary? It's all about what's appropriate for the situation.
-
As a Christian, the only thing I don't say is GD, that is taking the Lord's name in vain, and I just think it is disrespectful. Other than that, they are just words, but I still think that certain words are acceptable in public and some aren't. I think that "hell" "damn" and probably even "shit" are OK in most situations, but "fuck" and most especially "cunt" are words that should only be used in very select company. There are too many people who have no respect for themselves or others and let words like that fly around no matter where they are. It kind of sucks, especially if you are just waiting in line at a store or a movie theater with your wife and kids and have to listen to a couple of neaderthals dropping "fucks" and "cunts" all over the place.
I agree with all of this, although I never say the c-word.
I generally do not curse that much, and I almost never do in front of my parents. In fact, I probably curse the most when several friends and I quote movies, one of our favorite past times.
The absolute worst however is people who use homophones of the real thing. E.g. heck, fricking, jebus. "Shut the front door" takes the cake on that one.
I quite enjoy saying, "Son of a bee sting!" :lol
-
Great post, Obert. I agree on all points.
-
"fuck" and most especially "cunt" are words that should only be used in very select company
An example of when it's appropriate:
I AM A GUY
You're a fucking stupid bitch.
:rollin
-
Which leads to the other reason. There is such a thing as inappropriate words for a given situation. I know some folks my age or younger have no problem swearing in front of their kids, or at their kids. One day their kid is gonna get kicked out of class for swearing at their teacher, maybe not even out of disrespect, but because they've been taught that they're "just words" and honestly had no idea that it was inappropriate. Why? Because of the example set at home by their parents. Yes, it's important to teach kids that adults can and do get away with things that kids can't, and why, but that only comes after they've been taught the right way first. Swear at your kids all the time, and you'll raise kids that swear. Good luck with that.
Which is why, instead of teaching my daughter that there are "bad" words, I teach her that some words are not appropriate for some situations. She knows that there are words that shouldn't be used at school, for example.
-
My best friend and his wife go with that approach with their kids. They've been told to pick that shit up and clean their damned rooms all their lives, but don't ever use those words at school. It's definitely good to know the difference, but my problem is that I'm afraid that if they get too used to using those words freely, they'll pop out in front of a teacher or vice principal, and next thing I know, I'm getting a call from the school. Okay, not exactly a tragedy, but an avoidable hassle.
My kids have heard Mom and Dad use profanity, and they know that it only happens when they're really pissed about something. And it's not like they've never heard the words before, in movies or from their friends. But in a different way, I think I'm teaching them that words can carry weight.
-
I'm more concerned about my mouth when I have kids. I hope there is a dramatic change..like a mystical cosmic one. I don't give a crap about swearing, but when my fiancee does it turns me off. I certainly don't want my kids to swear, when I have them. Well, at least not to me.
-
I'm more concerned about my mouth when I have kids. I hope there is a dramatic change..like a mystical cosmic one. I don't give a crap about swearing, but when my fiancee does it turns me off. I certainly don't want my kids to swear, when I have them. Well, at least not to me.
Why in the world would it turn you off when she swears if you swear all the time?
-
THANK YOU HEF!
-
I'm more concerned about my mouth when I have kids. I hope there is a dramatic change..like a mystical cosmic one. I don't give a crap about swearing, but when my fiancee does it turns me off. I certainly don't want my kids to swear, when I have them. Well, at least not to me.
Why in the world would it turn you off when she swears if you swear all the time?
Not speaking for snapple specifically, but I would guess that it's some sort of ingrained idea that women are usually the more refined and/or proper of the two sexes, while (let's face it) guys are pretty much ogres with little chance for refinement. Whenever a woman swears incessantly, it kinda doesn't fit with that idea that people usually have about women.
Maybe I'm wrong, though. I think I assume most people tend to envision women as much more proper individuals than men, but maybe people don't think like that. I don't know.
-
fucking cunts
Anyway, as a Christian I would try to avoid it, but now, eh. Whatever.
-
I think Cozmo's got it.
-
I think Cozmo's got it.
2nd that.
-
I'm more concerned about my mouth when I have kids. I hope there is a dramatic change..like a mystical cosmic one. I don't give a crap about swearing, but when my fiancee does it turns me off. I certainly don't want my kids to swear, when I have them. Well, at least not to me.
Why in the world would it turn you off when she swears if you swear all the time?
Not speaking for snapple specifically, but I would guess that it's some sort of ingrained idea that women are usually the more refined and/or proper of the two sexes, while (let's face it) guys are pretty much ogres with little chance for refinement. Whenever a woman swears incessantly, it kinda doesn't fit with that idea that people usually have about women.
Maybe I'm wrong, though. I think I assume most people tend to envision women as much more proper individuals than men, but maybe people don't think like that. I don't know.
Some of that. More that she used to never swear and only started because of me. She's sounds stupid when she swears. I just don't like it. Probably because I don't like that I do, but for me it's such a hard thing to cut back on, I just kind of get upset when she does.
Don't hate because I encourage her to be better person (not trying to change her, because that's not who she is).
-
And after all of this, you can account for 90% of rationalization by what people grew up with.
rumborak
-
I think that swears are an equal-opportunity activity.
At school, practically everyone is a horrendous swearer. Hell, some of the more obnoxious females are worse swearers than any guys I've heard.
-
She's sounds stupid when she swears.
Think about that for a minute.
-
I know, Hef.
-
fucking cunts
Anyway, as a Christian I would try to avoid it, but now, eh. Whatever.
o/
-
My view is, if God doesn't like the word "fuck" he shouldn't have invented intercourse, if He doesn't like "shit" he shouldn't have made us poop.
wonderful quote there!
I'd agree with most of what has been said already - in moderation it's fine. However, it completely depends on the situation.
-
These terms are considered bad because they were, generally, the terms that the commoners in England would have used. Hence, why the term used to describe them is "vulgar" (it originally referred to "the common people" and/or "the vernacular"). The Norman conquerors were obviously French and so the nobility primarily spoke French, whereas the conquered were the Anglo-Saxons who spoke a German dialect. The nobility viewed the German as crude/lowly. And their languages eventually merged together to be English but the tendency to view the "German" words as bad/lowly/unrefined still is around now. Also, this tendency can be expanded a bit in that a so-called "classical education" pretty much always included learning Latin; and today, most technical/educated terms in English are ones based on Latin.
Examples: Shit came to English via German whereas excrement came via French. Fuck is Dutch/German in origin. Cunt is derived from Old German. Etc
-
These terms are considered bad because they were, generally, the terms that the commoners in England would have used. Hence, why the term used to describe them is "vulgar" (it originally referred to "the common people" and/or "the vernacular"). The Norman conquerors were obviously French and so the nobility primarily spoke French, whereas the conquered were the Anglo-Saxons who spoke a German dialect. The nobility viewed the German as crude/lowly. And their languages eventually merged together to be English but the tendency to view the "German" words as bad/lowly/unrefined still is around now. Also, this tendency can be expanded a bit in that a so-called "classical education" pretty much always included learning Latin; and today, most technical/educated terms in English are ones based on Latin.
Examples: Shit came to English via German whereas excrement came via French. Fuck is Dutch/German in origin. Cunt is derived from Old German. Etc
Whoa! There is something I didn't know. That's pretty damn cool! You know where I could read up on this?
-
Not knowing much in terms of linguistics, when someone mentioned this idea to me I just combined my vague memory of history (with checking a history book to jog my memory) plus looking up some of the more common swear words in the dictionary and seeing the etymology.
-
These terms are considered bad because they were, generally, the terms that the commoners in England would have used. Hence, why the term used to describe them is "vulgar" (it originally referred to "the common people" and/or "the vernacular"). The Norman conquerors were obviously French and so the nobility primarily spoke French, whereas the conquered were the Anglo-Saxons who spoke a German dialect. The nobility viewed the German as crude/lowly. And their languages eventually merged together to be English but the tendency to view the "German" words as bad/lowly/unrefined still is around now. Also, this tendency can be expanded a bit in that a so-called "classical education" pretty much always included learning Latin; and today, most technical/educated terms in English are ones based on Latin.
Examples: Shit came to English via German whereas excrement came via French. Fuck is Dutch/German in origin. Cunt is derived from Old German. Etc
In other words we have yet another thing to blame on the Germans. :rollin
-
:)
Though not directly. All of those etymologies are really "German by direct route of Frisian" since apparently Old English is more similar to Old Frisian than other "Germanic" languages.
If anyone wants to read up on this stuff ... https://www.wmich.edu/medieval/resources/IOE/genintro.html