DreamTheaterForums.org Dream Theater Fan Site
General => Archive => Political and Religious => Topic started by: Scheavo on November 06, 2011, 02:24:15 AM
-
Democrats are mostly spineless sellouts, but the current Republicans in office are a disgrace to this country. In a time when we need important measures passed, at a time when our government is more corrupt then ever, the Republicans in the government are more concerned with religious matters than helping this country out.
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/11/04/obama-administration-opposes-fdr-prayer-at-wwii-memorial/?cmpid=NL_FNTopHeadlines_20111104
Republican lawmakers and conservative activists are expressing outrage after the Obama administration announced its objection to adding President Franklin Roosevelt's D-Day prayer to the World War II Memorial in Washington, D.C.
"It is not a judgment as to the merit of this new commemoration, simply that altering the Memorial in this way, as proposed in HR 2070, will necessarily dilute this elegant memorial's central message and its ability to clearly convey that message to move, educate, and inspire its many visitors," Abbey said in written testimony.
"This is further evidence that the administration has created an environment that is hostile towards American history -- but in particular towards Christianity," Perkins told Fox News. "I hope America wakes up and realizes what this administration is doing to this country and how they want to radically and fundamentally change America."
"They want to erase every aspect of America's heritage," Perkins said of Obama's administration. "Any president, any official in history that has embraced Christianity, is no longer welcome in this administration. That's the environment they are creating."
Combine that with the recent reaffirmation of the motto "In God We Trust" and I'm truly embarrassed that these people are governmental officials.
-
I get what they're doing. Mitt Romney's Jesus-credentials are the lowest in the party probably since Dwight Eisenhower. So what better way to sell him to the consituents than paint Barack Obama as an atheist?
By the way, I have no doubt that the president is probably not a Christian. Where I differ from other Christians is I don't particularly care.
-
I don't see the point in adding the prayer to the memorial. And I believe that the President is Christian, and have no idea why anyone would doubt that.
-
Oh, I get their aim too, and it's a downright sickening aim. It's all about trying to score political points, nothing about running this country.
And the fact that religion plays a role at all is rather disheartening; the fact that elected officials are trying to use religion as a weapon is even worse. These people need to read the constitutions, and remember what this country stands for. Which is horribly ironic given the guy chastising Obama for "ignoring American history."
-
I don't see how the question is relevant to the job he is doing. He seems to have *some* kind of moral compass, and whether that was decreed by Yahwe, Allah, Zuul or his own mind, the outcome is the same.
It would be cool if he had gotten it from Zuul though. Just sayin'.
rumborak
-
I really could not possibly care less if the president worships the Flying Spaghetti Monster. And that goes for a president with (D) after his name or a president with (R) after his name. As far as I'm concerned, it's none of my business what the president believes in.
As far as the Republicans on congress go, they're stalling and obstructing because it's good for their party right now. They're refusing to allow up or down votes any any of Obama's proposals -especially large infrastructure projects that are typically used to help lift the country out of recession- because those projects generally end up being part of a President's legacy, and the Republicans have stated time and time again that they want this president to fail and they will do whatever it takes to ensure that he is a one-term president.
I really don't understand why any of this surprises anyone at this point. Welcome to American Politics in the age of "that black dude with the funny name" in the white house.
-
I care insofar is it helps me get an idea of his ability to reason and get a sense of his moral philosophy. His religion itself doesn't matter to me. But I would like to see my president make rational choices conerning religion as it may indicate he'll make similar choices in other areas.
-
What I want to know is why is religion a prerequisite for a president's moral character? Might not a president who bases his life philosophy off the teachings of a secular thinker be better (i.e. Platonic political philosophy)?
-
Especially since the ones who claim they are the most devote religious person usually end up having the most heinous skeletons in their closet when it comes to morals.
-
Oh how I love the Christian right. If there was one group of people that are doing more to fuck up the country as a whole, it's them.
And why did I always think Scheavo was a foreigner?
-
Oh how I love the Christian right. If there was one group of people that are doing more to fuck up the country as a whole, it's them.
And why did I always think Scheavo was a foreigner?
I think you're talking about the vocal Christian right.
Those guys I don't care for; I'm okay with Christian right wingers who keep their religion out of their politics.
-
I have yet to meet/see/deal with a Christian right winger who does not mingle the two.
-
I mean I haven't either, but a close personal friend of mine considers herself religious right and is far from politically vocal.
-
I don't care about being vocal. I have a problem with mixing religion and politics because it tends to turn out quite horribly. You don't need to be vocal to vote.
-
Politicians are such sleezballs in general doenst everyone take their cliams on their religious beleifs with a grain of salt?
-
I do believe that a good part of the hardcore religious beliefs the right expresses are most likely for the sake of gaining support from the religious poor.
-
I don't care about being vocal. I have a problem with mixing religion and politics because it tends to turn out quite horribly.
How so?
I'm willing to bet that 90% of the time it is people abusing religion for a political outcome. What Spanish conquistadors or what the Crusaders did, by in large, was lead by nut jobs who were abusing people being faithful.
And, if I choose to believe in what I do, wouldn't I want vote for the leaders who are going to see things the same way as I am?
-
I could quote the many people that are anti-gay, anti-muslim, anti-jew, anti-woman, or anti-everyone and everything who is not a Christian, but it might take a while.
Let me put it like this, if you are against gay marriage because your God says a marriage is between a man and a woman, I have a serious problem.
-
Let me put it like this, if you are against gay marriage because your God says a marriage is between a man and a woman, I have a serious problem.
I don't have a problem with people who are PERSONALLY against gay marriage because they feel their God is against gay marriage. Rather, my problem is with those who are against gay marriage (or whatever other topic we may be discussing) for EVERYONE for no other reason than that their God is against gay marriage. If that is your only reason for or against something, then for me that is where separation of church and state come in.
-
Let me put it like this, if you are against gay marriage because your God says a marriage is between a man and a woman, I have a serious problem.
I don't have a problem with people who are PERSONALLY against gay marriage because they feel their God is against gay marriage. Rather, my problem is with those who are against gay marriage (or whatever other topic we may be discussing) for EVERYONE for no other reason than that their God is against gay marriage. If that is your only reason for or against something, then for me that is where separation of church and state come in.
I totally agree with this. In this country, religious affiliation was meant to be a voluntary association, not a component of one's political identity.
-
Let me put it like this, if you are against gay marriage because your God says a marriage is between a man and a woman, I have a serious problem.
I don't have a problem with people who are PERSONALLY against gay marriage because they feel their God is against gay marriage. Rather, my problem is with those who are against gay marriage (or whatever other topic we may be discussing) for EVERYONE for no other reason than that their God is against gay marriage. If that is your only reason for or against something, then for me that is where separation of church and state come in.
I agree to an extent. While I would rather someone say, "I'm personally against gay marriage, but go ahead" than "I'm against gay marriage so no gays should be married" I still have a massive problem with the first.
-
Let me put it like this, if you are against gay marriage because your God says a marriage is between a man and a woman, I have a serious problem.
I don't have a problem with people who are PERSONALLY against gay marriage because they feel their God is against gay marriage. Rather, my problem is with those who are against gay marriage (or whatever other topic we may be discussing) for EVERYONE for no other reason than that their God is against gay marriage. If that is your only reason for or against something, then for me that is where separation of church and state come in.
I agree to an extent. While I would rather someone say, "I'm personally against gay marriage, but go ahead" than "I'm against gay marriage so no gays should be married" I still have a massive problem with the first.
Do you agree to the same when it comes to smoking crack, prostitution, not buying health insurance? It seems like a lot of left wingers object when right wingers poke their nose in other peoples gay marriage business, but are more than happy to do the same on a myriad of other issues.
-
I'm all for gays marrying, people using hard drugs, prostitution being carried out, and health insurance being voluntary.
It's not my business what other people do or don't do in their free time.
-
Do you agree to the same when it comes to smoking crack, prostitution, not buying health insurance? It seems like a lot of left wingers object when right wingers poke their nose in other peoples gay marriage business, but are more than happy to do the same on a myriad of other issues.
I don't now which left wingers you're talking about, because most liberals I know are all for letting you smoke crack, hire a prostitute; not buying health insurance is a systemic problem, becuase if you end up using the health care system, the rest of us foot the bill, so it doesn't really apply as well.
-
Do you agree to the same when it comes to smoking crack, prostitution, not buying health insurance? It seems like a lot of left wingers object when right wingers poke their nose in other peoples gay marriage business, but are more than happy to do the same on a myriad of other issues.
I don't now which left wingers you're talking about, because most liberals I know are all for letting you smoke crack, hire a prostitute; not buying health insurance is a systemic problem, becuase if you end up using the health care system, the rest of us foot the bill, so it doesn't really apply as well.
well thats kind of a two wrongs dont make a right situation... but we can all think of situations in which left wingers are against people doing what they want as long as they dont inhibit the freedom of others. For example, minimum wage.
-
Is the minimum wage what lead to American businesses outsourcing?
-
Id imagine it helped... What is a minimum wage to the benificary is a minimum cost to the producer. That isn't going to induce him to stick around...
-
Minimum wage didn't cause outsourcing, the combination of high cost of living in the US (when compared to India or China), plus the lack of the US economy producing higher-quality products instead, invariably caused outsourcing. You can never compete with third-world countries when it comes to low-quality work.
rumborak
-
What would be a US solution to outsourcing, then?
-
but we can all think of situations in which left wingers are against people doing what they want as long as they dont inhibit the freedom of others. For example, minimum wage.
Eh, I could make an argument that minimum wage is something where someone else's freedom is inhibited.
What would be a US solution to outsourcing, then?
Tariffs.
-
What would be a US solution to outsourcing, then?
What other industry nations do: Educate the populous and move on to producing high-quality items. That's the only way to stay ahead of the game and get the margin that allows the standard of living.
rumborak
-
What is currently preventing the US from doing so?
-
An uneducated populace, and a political system too corrupt to fix the educational system.
-
For one, the lack of commitment to educating its populous. While the US has the best educational institutes in the world, they're essentially used to educate other countries' students, who then go back to their countries and raise *their* quality of products. My company has a gov't-mandated minimum number of US citizens it has to employ, and is struggling to do so because there are none. Shitloads of qualified foreigners though we could hire.
rumborak
-
Is this a result of other countries' populace taking advantage of the US education system, American citizens being lazy and unmotivated on average, or some combination of the two?
Or something completely different?
-
Well, you can't blame the foreigners for purchasing a service that is up for sale, after all in the US schools are essentially "shops" where you buy education.
Regarding the local population, yeah, I think a good amount of laziness plays into it, and the lack of concerted effort to get the population educated. Any attempt to raise the baseline of education has been undercut by quibbling parties.
rumborak
-
What do you think could rectify this issue of a weak willed population?
-
Things getting bad enough. That's how all humans around the world learn, frankly.
rumborak
-
So, if the economy proves poor enough, people will come to their senses and work their asses off to better themselves?
Shouldn't the government proceed to, I dunno, let it all fall apart, or artificially destroy it, for the sake of letting this happen, or something?
-
What government would get elected with that kind of platform? :lol
There is a difference between what people want, and what gets the job done.
rumborak
-
Shouldn't the government proceed to, I dunno, let it all fall apart, or artificially destroy it, for the sake of letting this happen, or something?
oh my god... republicans are geniuses! It all makes sense now...
It's cultural, so really government can't do anything. Gotta have parents who care about their kids education, otherwise there's no quality control, free-market or not.
-
Is there any way to make these useless parents do their jobs as parents and kick their kids' asses into gear?
What government would get elected with that kind of platform? :lol
Also, yeah, obviously no government could get elected running on that platform. However, I'm pretty sure a government is able to do the opposite of what they say they're going to.
-
What do you think could rectify this issue of a weak willed population?
I think is a situation of "natural cycle of empires." A burgeoning empire will have a collective will of the people for communal growth. Once it reaches a certain level of influence and power and easy of living for its members the will for progress dies because the essential challenge is lost. What remains is only a will to enjoy the happiness attained. Where there is no larger, grandeur, objective for a nation of people aside form just maintaining the norm then acceptance and even retrograde seems to begin.
Our educational system is the top of the planet because it was established alongside an empire building itself. It grew alongside an industry free and open demanding talent. It grew alongside a country with an elite class just waiting to be populated. And lately in the past century it was World War 2 and The Cold War which kept education (and industry) at the helm of government objectives.
Today, we really have no grandeur objectives only that to maintain the top spot. The people are becoming less interested in education because they rightfully see less and less of the need. Its no surprise that graduate programs throughout the nation are populated by non-western foreigners and why the government has to give mandates to hire Americans, as Rumbo pointed out.
We can't simply TELL American students "hey, be interested in science its going to help us." The people have to FEEL the need, understand the need.
I really think its a natural cycle of empires and there is really no avoiding it. Only after America has significantly lost her power and influence then its spark will be reignited*
(* or a nation-threatening War. A War supported by the people always helps too...)
EDIT
What can also help is to open up our borders more to foreigners. Let Americans see what lack of interest in education is costing them. Yes, talent might be taken back oversees to home country but so will Western Ideals, American favor-ism, and capitalistic notions all of which will indirectly help us to handle and understand a global economy.
Protectionism and Isolationism is the VERY LAST thing this country needs.
-
That seems to make a good deal of sense.
However, I would like to know, would there be a way for the government and people of the US to speed up this process and force the US to lose its power and influence, therefore motivating the people to cut the crap and be of use to their nation through hard work and innovation?
Also, I notice Japan, despite having a level of power/influence similar to the US, is still super-motivated through the use of a school system that weeds the wastes of space out of any chance of getting a good paying job, and hence ruining their social standing, and rewards the diligent, allowing them to reap the benefits of getting a high-paying job and prestige in society.
Could this be successfully implemented in the US, and if so, would it have a positive effect on society?
-
What can also help is to open up our borders more to foreigners. Let Americans see what lack of interest in education is costing them. Yes, talent might be taken back oversees to home country but so will Western Ideals, American favor-ism, and capitalistic notions all of which will indirectly help us to handle and understand a global economy.
Protectionism and Isolationism is the VERY LAST thing this country needs.
There is the confounding factor that at some point the flow of talented foreigners will dry out. Countries like China and India, which used to be the main source of those foreigners, are rapidly shooting upwards, and thus there is no desire for those people to leave their homeland anymore, and rather use their innate talent there.
@MasterShakezula: I dunno whether you can use Japan as a model. They have a very strong culture that is very dissimilar to Western culture.
But, I'm not sure all is so bleak. Not every empire died in a glorious dissolution. Many of them just learned their proper space on the world's stage, and this just might happen in the US too. One feature about American culture is also that they tend to fall on their feet; maybe all it takes is another Sputnik moment.
rumborak
-
well thats kind of a two wrongs dont make a right situation
Just for the record, it was established in a previous thread that two wrongs actually do make a right:
"Two wrongs don't make a right."
So we have to figure out what plus wrong WILL equal right.
X + wrong = right
So to figure for X, we subtract wrong from each side, which gives us this:
X = right - wrong.
So when we put that back into the initial equation, we end up with this:
(right-wrong) + wrong = right.
The two wrongs essentially cancel each other out, leaving this:
right = right
So two wrongs DO make a right.
-
I understand that Japan's collective culture is different from ours. However I think that the fear of facing a lifetime in poverty/near-poverty and a very poor reputation is (hopefully) a universal fear that would transcend the cultural barrier, assuming Americans' sense isn't already too far gone.
As for a Sputnik moment, I believe it could prove to be useful as a sort of collective kick in the ass. I just hope that America cares enough to step it up when that does happen. I see the people of my generation at school every day, the people who will one day be the US's workforce and government, and I wonder if these people will care enough to make the US great, and I just don't know. They seem more apathetic than any people to come before them.