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General => Archive => Political and Religious => Topic started by: El Barto on October 15, 2011, 09:22:13 AM
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I'm putting this in P/R because I've got a pretty good idea the direction this is going to take.
https://www.wpix.com/news/wpix-bloody-greenwich-village-mcdonalds-fight,0,2988734.story
(NSFW the video is loud and full of profanity)
The argument began around 12:30 a.m. when the cashier, Rayon McIntosh, 31, told the two women -- Denise Darbeau, 24, of Queens, and Rachel Edwards, 24, of Brooklyn -- that he would have to scan their $50 bill before getting their food, according to DNAinfo.com.
Edwards and Darbeau can be heard in the video swearing at McIntosh and saying, "Do something, p***y." Then Darbeau escalates the situation by lunging forward and slapping the cashier across the face. McIntosh dives forward to retaliate, and pushes the woman before backing into the restaurant.
Darbeau then jumps over the counter while Edwards walks around the side to confront McIntosh, who reaches out of the frame and grabs a metal rod. Gripping the rod in both hands, McIntosh can then be seen winding up and striking both women repeatedly while they fall to the ground.
Patrons can be heard screaming, with one horrified woman yelling, "Stop it! Stop! Stop! Oh my God," as the repeated impact of the pipe can be heard in the background. One woman suffered a fractured skull and a broken arm; the other a deep cut on the head, according to reports.
I'm a little hazy on why this is felony assault on the cashier's part, and not self defense. I'm not entirely sure whether or not the castle doctrine applies to the work place or not, and I doubt it even exists at all in NY, but either way I suspect that had this happened down here in Tejas he would have been within his right to exercise deadly force. Kind of seems to me that Johnny should have given him an Attaboy, rather than a ride downtown.
And why aren't the girls being charged with felonies? Since there are plenty of New Yorkers 'round these parts, I figure some of y'all have more info on this than I do.
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It's pretty sad that the two women are not being charged with anything. However, what the worker did was ultimately wrong. I'm all for self defense, but he should have just backed away after being slapped, and had the two women thrown out.
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It's pretty sad that the two women are not being charged with anything. However, what the worker did was ultimately wrong. I'm all for self defense, but she should have just backed away after being slapped, and had the two women thrown out.
Yeah. Self-defense is one thing. But that worker looked like he definitely went a bit too far. His co-workers were telling him to stop because after he clearly wasn't in danger any more he continued to beat the woman on the floor and was being belligerent with the other lady behind the counter yelling "stop." His repeatedly yelling "fuck yall" to the coworkers trying to stop him almost makes it sound like he thinks he deserves to beat the woman within an inch of her life because she got aggressive against him.
Seems like there's blame to go around. I wouldn't necessarily be patting anyone's back here. The fact the cashier is a convicted killer does not help things, either.
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Ignore the stupidity.
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The cashier had every right to defend himself in the situation, since they were coming at him physically, but to me there is a point where you overstep the line of self defense, to just violence.
The cashier clearly took many more hits than was necessary to merely incapacitate the women and stop the attack, and that's where the line is for me. When he came back to hit more times, it was out of rage, and not self defense anymore.
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As an aside: it's times like these that gun-control laws make me happy.
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We have no way of knowing at what point (if at all) the girls were subdued.
What the co-workers or the white, female customer were shouting doesn't matter either. Hell, Cole is suggesting that he should have run and hid.
The cashier's criminal history is irrelevant in ascertaining the facts in this case.
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Cole is suggesting that he should have run and hid.
Yes I am.
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OK, what I see in the video:
1.) Customer getting belligerent
2.) Cashier running to the back
3.) Customers coming after him
4.) Cashier reappearing with led pipe, hitting one of the girls down
5.) Cashier hitting girl on the floor repeatedly
6.) Coworkers urging him to stop
7.) Cashier telling them to fuck off and taking a couple swings at the girl on the floor while now even customers are urging him to stop.
That's enough to say he went over the line, in my opinion. He should have stopped after 4, but I'd even say that if he'd stopped at 6 it'd be OK.
That fact he's been convicting of unintentionally killing people before is just a bonus.
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Unfortunately, you cannot determine if he went too far without seeing the women on the other side of the counter, and neither could about 95% of the witnesses there.
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OK, what I see in the video:
1.) Customer getting belligerent
2.) Cashier running to the back
3.) Customers coming after him
4.) Cashier reappearing with led pipe, hitting one of the girls down
5.) Cashier hitting girl on the floor repeatedly
6.) Coworkers urging him to stop
7.) Cashier telling them to fuck off and taking a couple swings at the girl on the floor while now even customers are urging him to stop.
That's enough to say he went over the line, in my opinion. He should have stopped after 4, but I'd even say that if he'd stopped at 6 it'd be OK.
That fact he's been convicting of unintentionally killing people before is just a bonus.
You left out a crucial point:
1.5) customer assaults cashier
And again, the cashier's history doesn't matter at all here. He could have been the Green River Killer, but that wouldn't effect his culpability here one way or the other.
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I didn't leave out that part at all.
I really don't see what you're taking issue with here. I'm going by what I see on the video, which is all can be expected of me. I think the guy beat the girl too much, from what I can tell. The right to self-defense does not equal the right to bludgeon someone on the ground to death.
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OK, what I see in the video:
1.) Customer getting belligerent
2.) Cashier running to the back
3.) Customers coming after him
4.) Cashier reappearing with led pipe, hitting one of the girls down
5.) Cashier hitting girl on the floor repeatedly
6.) Coworkers urging him to stop
7.) Cashier telling them to fuck off and taking a couple swings at the girl on the floor while now even customers are urging him to stop.
That's enough to say he went over the line, in my opinion. He should have stopped after 4, but I'd even say that if he'd stopped at 6 it'd be OK.
That fact he's been convicting of unintentionally killing people before is just a bonus.
I agree with this.
Based on the video, it seemed to me he went well over the line, and this was before I found out anything about his criminal record, so that didn't factor into my opinion of this. But his history doesn't surprise me given how he snapped here.
Granted, we didn't see the women after they were knocked down, so we don't know for a fact what state they were in, but the long delay between hitting them again says to me they were already down and out and further hits were not needed.
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Very sobering video. It is obvious he went too far but equally obvious that the customers should be charged
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I'm pretty sure the cashier is only allowed to use force in direct defense of the assault by the women. This seems like brutal retaliation.
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The right to self-defense does not equal the right to bludgeon someone on the ground to death.
The right to self-defense does equal the right to do what's necessary to stop the assault. We couldn't see the women behind the counter, but the reports say that he struck them any time they tried to get up. If they had been unconscious, then I'd agree with you. If he felt they still posed a threat, then I have no problem with him keeping them on the ground.
If you're not familiar with it, you might read up on FederalExpress Flight 705. It's a fine example of how much fight people with skull fractures can still put up. (it's also a flat-out awesome story of heroism and professionalism)
edit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjqnznVzYKk&feature=results_video&playnext=1&list=PL83A87070C74A029D
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A few thoughts from a NYer:
-The girls are getting multiple charges, and they seem appropriate for what happened. "Edwards and Darbeau face charges of menacing, trespassing and disorderly conduct". No quite sure that what they did rises to the level of a felony.
-The guy probably would have been ok if he stopped and called 911 after the initial couple of swings with the pipe, which were legitimately self-defense. But he kept at it after the threat had been neutralized, which is a no-no anywhere. I wonder at what point one of the other employees called 911.
-As far as I know, there's no king-of-the-castle law in NY, and even if there were, I have a hard time imagining it would apply to a cashier working in a semi-public place like a McDonald's. But I do know that the proprietor at my tattoo parlor of choice (in the East Village) keeps a baseball bat behind the counter, and while it hasn't actually made contact with a would-be assailant/robber, it was in his hand when he threw one of the guys through the front window of the shop...and the cops weren't bothered by it...they only had tips for him on how to better delay the guys until the cops got there (they got away, despite one of them leaving a blood trail).
-I'm very glad that NY has tight gun laws, or this could have been worse.
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The right to self-defense does not equal the right to bludgeon someone on the ground to death.
The right to self-defense does equal the right to do what's necessary to stop the assault. We couldn't see the women behind the counter, but the reports say that he struck them any time they tried to get up. If they had been unconscious, then I'd agree with you. If he felt they still posed a threat, then I have no problem with him keeping them on the ground.
Without seeing the women on the ground, it's impossible to say what level of threat they posed, but even being "conscious", I can't imagine they posed a legitimate threat at that point. Just because they were moving to some degree, doesn't mean they were a threat and deserved to be hit again. Maybe if he was alone and they were of considerably greater strength than him, then yes, but he had enough people around and aware of the situation that I don't think they were in a state to threaten him further.
But we're all basing our opinions on our own extrapolation of the facts here, so I'm not saying you're wrong, but just that based on how I read the situation, I don't believe they were anywhere near enough of a threat to warrant further hits of that magnitude. They had only just started to move again, and he struck them with the same full force that he used to initially floor them. To me that doesn't work out.
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1) Don't start nothin', won't be nothin'.
2) He should've stopped after a few shots.
3) Charge those bitches.
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Am I the only one that thinks that fighting back in any shape or form is a no-no. What the hell is the woman going to do? She slaps you, and then you back away and call the cops. It doesn't seem that hard.
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Nope, women aren't capable of inflicting physical harm on someone.
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Am I the only one that thinks that fighting back in any shape or form is a no-no. What the hell is the woman going to do? She slaps you, and then you back away and call the cops. It doesn't seem that hard.
lol
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Nope, women aren't capable of inflicting physical harm on someone.
Of course they are, but in this situation, if the cashier would have backed off and went to call the cops it would have become a resturant (about 20 people I'd be willing to guess) vs. 2 people. Who's gonna win that one?
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-I'm very glad that NY has tight gun laws, or this could have been worse.
Oh for sure. If this happened in Texas it would have ended like the basement bar scene from Inglourious Basterds.
I think the worse thing that should happen to the cashier is getting fired for not controlling his temper and maybe sent to an Anger Management thing. I'd find it unjust if that guy went to jail even if the bitches die.
You gotta put yourself in his shoe, from my observation in the U.S there's no employees more stressed and depressed than the McDonalds ones, well second only to WalMart. With the minimum wages and the long hours, etc. These bitches could have possibly broken the last straw by behaving in such shitty manner. They started the swearing, one of them slapped him across the counter, can you imagine how it feels like to be slapped on the face? let alone in public? I know it's wrong but watching the part where he wouldn't stop beating on them I just kept thinking "Yes, yes". Kinda like that bully video we saw a few month back when the fat kid slammed the living concrete out of the skinny kid who was bullying him. He didn't have to go that far, that could have broken the kid's neck but the blinding anger of humiliation is an excuse that should be taken into consideration, only when you have such decisive video evidence of how the events took place..
I don't blame the guy but I know he's done wrong by not controlling his anger when it clearly seemed that he's done enough damage.
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A few thoughts from a NYer:
-The girls are getting multiple charges, and they seem appropriate for what happened. "Edwards and Darbeau face charges of menacing, trespassing and disorderly conduct". No quite sure that what they did rises to the level of a felony.
Looks like this is all much ado about nothing, then.
-The guy probably would have been ok if he stopped and called 911 after the initial couple of swings with the pipe, which were legitimately self-defense. But he kept at it after the threat had been neutralized, which is a no-no anywhere. I wonder at what point one of the other employees called 911.
-I'm very glad that NY has tight gun laws, or this could have been worse.
Agree completely with both of these points.
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Nope, women aren't capable of inflicting physical harm on someone.
Of course they are, but in this situation, if the cashier would have backed off and went to call the cops it would have become a resturant (about 20 people I'd be willing to guess) vs. 2 people. Who's gonna win that one?
Or they just would've left when he went to call the cops. No one would have detained them; it would be in no one's self-interest to intervene. So by time the cops showed up, the women would've been long gone, and the cashier would be left with a slap in the face, some paperwork to fill out, and an overall crappy day at work. The women would've been guilty of assault but gotten away with it.
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Better outcome than what just happened, I would think. I'd take a crappy day at work rather than possible jail time any day of the week.
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But we're all basing our opinions on our own extrapolation of the facts here, so I'm not saying you're wrong, but just that based on how I read the situation, I don't believe they were anywhere near enough of a threat to warrant further hits of that magnitude. They had only just started to move again, and he struck them with the same full force that he used to initially floor them. To me that doesn't work out.
And I somewhat agree with you. We're basing our opinions on what we've seen, and what we've seen doesn't tell us whether or not the girls still posed a threat. IMO, they might well have. If we ever see the surveillance video, and it shows the girls in a defensive or helpless posture, then I'll change my opinion. As it stands right now, my benefit of the doubt goes to the person who was initially attacked, and not the girls who started the altercation.
Consider as well that the cooking area of a McDonalds is a terrible place to fight off two assailants (to continue Metty's analogy, "You know, fightin' in a basement offers a lot of difficulties. Number one being, you're fightin' in a basement!")
A few thoughts from a NYer:
-The girls are getting multiple charges, and they seem appropriate for what happened. "Edwards and Darbeau face charges of menacing, trespassing and disorderly conduct". No quite sure that what they did rises to the level of a felony.
Gotta disagree with you on this, Doc. Whether or not it rises to the felony level I'm not sure, but there definitely need to be some assault charges in there. Also, I'm not sure how New York differentiates degrees of trespass, but these girls were trespassing with the intent to commit assault. That might be felony territory.
Nope, women aren't capable of inflicting physical harm on someone.
Of course they are, but in this situation, if the cashier would have backed off and went to call the cops it would have become a resturant (about 20 people I'd be willing to guess) vs. 2 people. Who's gonna win that one?
Never, ever assume that others will be willing to assist. On the same page as that video is another video of a teenage girl getting beaten severely for several minutes in a crowded McDonalds while the entire restaurant watches. The only person willing to intervene was a 70 year old woman. Furthermore, until things turn ugly, you really have no idea if this girl was just some stupid chick who can't throw a real punch, or the world's seventh ranked practitioner of Jeet Kune Do. That guy was under no legal or moral obligation to find out before defending himself.
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^Bart makes a good point. How exactly do you know if the girl isn't trained in some sort of martial arts? She may have slapped initially, but she could very well start throwing in some crazy shit on the guy. Better to take a preemptive strike than find out.
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Is the new fad fighting in McDonald's restaurants?
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Better outcome than what just happened, I would think. I'd take a crappy day at work rather than possible jail time any day of the week.
True, but there is a middle ground. He may have taken it too far, but are you saying he shouldn't have done anything and just let them slap him around? What about after she got behind the counter, obviously intending to do more damage? Do you still walk away, confident that you're doing the right thing, as she grabs you from behind, throws you down and kicks your ass?
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Is the new fad fighting in McDonald's restaurants?
From Planking to Coning to McViolence
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Better outcome than what just happened, I would think. I'd take a crappy day at work rather than possible jail time any day of the week.
True, but there is a middle ground. He may have taken it too far, but are you saying he shouldn't have done anything and just let them slap him around? What about after she got behind the counter, obviously intending to do more damage? Do you still walk away, confident that you're doing the right thing, as she grabs you from behind, throws you down and kicks your ass?
Me and my fellow Texan might be the only ones to defend the cashier, but I think we can all agree that Cole's just wrong. :rollin
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I defended the cashier too but Cole's angle is legit for some personalities imo. I can never see myself resorting to violence in any given scenario either but actually watching the video made me put myself in the cashier's place and understand the rage. If this was just a written article telling me of the story I probably would have been more neutral.
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I just don't think violence is the answer. Better have her get away and not resort to her stupid level than resort...and go past...what she did.
I'm just a dang hippie.
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I'm not a violent person either. I just don't see the appeal of dropping to a fetal position and letting two girls kick my ass. Particularly in an area where things could conceivably turn deadly due to carelessness or malice.
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Cole, your transformation into PR's only true leftist is coming along well. I'm proud of you!
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I'm not a violent person either. I just don't see the appeal of dropping to a fetal position and letting two girls kick my ass. Particularly in an area where things could conceivably turn deadly due to carelessness or malice.
Especially around some hot grease and other stuff with serious potential
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I'm not a violent person either. I just don't see the appeal of dropping to a fetal position and letting two girls kick my ass. Particularly in an area where things could conceivably turn deadly due to carelessness or malice.
I dunno. I've always been fascinating by people who completely refuse to participate in violence. Like, people who'll burn themselves before they resist a riot cop hitting them with a nightstick. I'm not sure it's what I'd consider the most moral approach to things but I certainly can see why some people think it is.
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I'm not a violent person either. I just don't see the appeal of dropping to a fetal position and letting two girls kick my ass. Particularly in an area where things could conceivably turn deadly due to carelessness or malice.
I dunno. I've always been fascinating by people who completely refuse to participate in violence. Like, people who'll burn themselves before they resist a riot cop hitting them with a nightstick. I'm not sure it's what I'd consider the most moral approach to things but I certainly can see why some people think it is.
Yeah, I can get that. There's difference, though, between taking a moral stand against a higher authority and letting two stupid twats kick your ass. Somehow I don't think those two girls would have appreciated your display of moral superiority (just a hunch).
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Am I the only one that thinks that fighting back in any shape or form is a no-no. What the hell is the woman going to do? She slaps you, and then you back away and call the cops. It doesn't seem that hard.
If someone is threatening my family's safety and the only recourse is to fight back, I would think I have a moral obligation to do so.
It must at least be morally permissible to fight back to protect one's own safety.
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I don't think there is anything wrong with defending yourself at all. That guy had every right to stop the assault. I do believe he went too far afterwards though. He kept coming back for more hits. Now, we don't see what was going on of course. Who is to say one of the girls didn't pull out a knife or something? Or reached for something? The video tapes looks like he took it was too far, but I don't know if I can blame him for it at this point.
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As a very non-violent person, I think defending yourself in that situation is definitely the way to go, but that cashier obviously took it way too far. All three of the people involved in this incident seem like complete wastes of life.
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I've said it before and I'll say it again (IT WAS ALL TOO MUCH FOR THE ALIEN!!!) that I don't think violence is the answer in this case. Personally, I don't think the chick would have flipped out as much if the dude would not have hit her back. That was his big mistake. You never fight fire with fire, and what he did will get his ass throw in jail.
Don't get me wrong, the two chicks are more at fault here. However, what the cashier did was wrong, and if I was in his place, you bet your ass I would have taken the slap, and called the cops. If they left before the cops could show up, at least I would never have to deal with them again.
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If I may ask Barto, which "direction" did you see this conversation going toward as to put it in P/R?
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No offense, 73109, but I think you are very naive. Do you really think girls who are willing to go over a counter and slap a cashier are gonna stop at just one slap if the victim is unwilling to defend him or herself?
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Do you really think the customer would have continued being a bitch had the dude not slapped her back? A simple "Get the fuck out of my store or I will call the cops" from a manager would have most likely sufficed, but because both parties resorted to violence, you saw the outcome.
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Yes. I do. Besides, once a person physically assaults you, you have no idea how far they are willing to take it, so defending yourself is usually the better option rather than just standing there and taking it. Should the cashier have taken it as far as he did? Of course not. But standing there and letting someone assault you without defending yourself at all is a recipe for getting your ass kicked. I am not even saying that the cashier should have started swinging back, but taking an aggressive stance or threatening them with retaliation will often deter the original aggressor from continuing their assault.
Bottom line: those stupid girls started a fight and got their butts kicked. It is like a person shot breaking into someone's house crying that they were only there to steal a TV, and that the punishment didn't fit the crime. Regardless of whether or not it got taken too far, your actions directly led to what happened to you.
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I understand where you are coming from. I really do. I just can't justify a violent reaction. Also, I really don't think the chick would have continued with the assault if the cashier hadn't retaliated.
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If I may ask Barto, which "direction" did you see this conversation going toward as to put it in P/R?
We haven't seen any replies from Praxis or Gmillerdrake yet.
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Ah...ok. :corn
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The cashier had every right to defend himself in the situation, since they were coming at him physically, but to me there is a point where you overstep the line of self defense, to just violence.
The cashier clearly took many more hits than was necessary to merely incapacitate the women and stop the attack, and that's where the line is for me. When he came back to hit more times, it was out of rage, and not self defense anymore.
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No offense, 73109, but I think you are very naive.
100%. Cole, you're very smart.
A few weeks ago I was in a drunken brawl with my buddies. We went to a diner and my friend Rob went to the bathroom and someone was in it. Door was locked and he knocked and the dude yelled "fuck off!' and Rob yelled back "go fuck your mother!" He comes out to me and my other two friends and said 'guys, i think I started some shit" and told us what happened. The guy came waltzing out of the bathroom, and started talking shit to Rob. Rob was apologizing, albeit right in the guy's face. Guy wouldn't listen to it. He then asked to go outside to talk to not ruin people's dinner (at 3 am LOL). We go outside, 4 of us, one of him. He started throwing punches at Rob and I started to pull Rob off while my other friends pinned the other guy. Two of the girls he was with came out and fucking PEPPER SPRAYED Rob. Then they started kick and clawing at him. I lost my grip and Rob bolted. The girls started throwing rocks and bricks at us. Luckily, they were just as drunk as their friend, which wasn't as nearly as drunk as we were, and they missed.
All people are capable of being insanely violent. You have no idea of the person slapping you his high, drunk or just a fucking psychopath. You have to defend yourself. Yeah, the cashier ended up taking it too far, but in the beginning, I saw nothing wrong.
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No offense, 73109, but I think you are very naive.
100%. Cole, you're very smart.
A few weeks ago I was in a drunken brawl with my buddies. We went to a diner and my friend Rob went to the bathroom and someone was in it. Door was locked and he knocked and the dude yelled "fuck off!' and Rob yelled back "go fuck your mother!" He comes out to me and my other two friends and said 'guys, i think I started some shit" and told us what happened. The guy came waltzing out of the bathroom, and started talking shit to Rob. Rob was apologizing, albeit right in the guy's face. Guy wouldn't listen to it. He then asked to go outside to talk to not ruin people's dinner (at 3 am LOL). We go outside, 4 of us, one of him. He started throwing punches at Rob and I started to pull Rob off while my other friends pinned the other guy. Two of the girls he was with came out and fucking PEPPER SPRAYED Rob. Then they started kick and clawing at him. I lost my grip and Rob bolted. The girls started throwing rocks and bricks at us. Luckily, they were just as drunk as their friend, which wasn't as nearly as drunk as we were, and they missed.
All people are capable of being insanely violent. You have no idea of the person slapping you his high, drunk or just a fucking psychopath. You have to defend yourself. Yeah, the cashier ended up taking it too far, but in the beginning, I saw nothing wrong.
It's always the girlfriends that get ya. :lol
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No offense, 73109, but I think you are very naive.
100%. Cole, you're very smart.
A few weeks ago I was in a drunken brawl with my buddies. We went to a diner and my friend Rob went to the bathroom and someone was in it. Door was locked and he knocked and the dude yelled "fuck off!' and Rob yelled back "go fuck your mother!" He comes out to me and my other two friends and said 'guys, i think I started some shit" and told us what happened. The guy came waltzing out of the bathroom, and started talking shit to Rob. Rob was apologizing, albeit right in the guy's face. Guy wouldn't listen to it. He then asked to go outside to talk to not ruin people's dinner (at 3 am LOL). We go outside, 4 of us, one of him. He started throwing punches at Rob and I started to pull Rob off while my other friends pinned the other guy. Two of the girls he was with came out and fucking PEPPER SPRAYED Rob. Then they started kick and clawing at him. I lost my grip and Rob bolted. The girls started throwing rocks and bricks at us. Luckily, they were just as drunk as their friend, which wasn't as nearly as drunk as we were, and they missed.
All people are capable of being insanely violent. You have no idea of the person slapping you his high, drunk or just a fucking psychopath. You have to defend yourself. Yeah, the cashier ended up taking it too far, but in the beginning, I saw nothing wrong.
Your analogy fails in that I have absolutely no problem with what you did...You stopped the dude from hitting your friend and ran. You or anyone else never threw a punch. The only people that perpetuated the violence were the dude and his two chicks.
Also, probably not the greatest idea to tell a dude to go fuck his mother.
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I agree with El Barto, and I don't understand why the cashier is being charged with possessing a weapon illegally.
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No offense, 73109, but I think you are very naive. Do you really think girls who are willing to go over a counter and slap a cashier are gonna stop at just one slap if the victim is unwilling to defend him or herself?
It depends. I don't think they'd knock him on the ground and then continue to bash his skull in, that's for sure. But the two people in the video definitely had issues, so who knows.
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Is the new fad fighting in McDonald's restaurants?
From Planking to Coning to McViolence
Welcome to McDonald's, may I beat you senseless?
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Is the new fad fighting in McDonald's restaurants?
From Planking to Coning to McViolence
Welcome to McDonald's, may I beat you senseless?
Would you like fists with that?
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I don't know if I'm the only one here so thinks this, but after reading this/watching the video, my only thoughts are:
"Why the flying fuck did that cashier think it was necessary to beat them with A GODDAMN METAL BAR?!"
Like seriously. The rest of you are like, "well, I think the ladies should be charged," or "he went a little past self-defense there," etc.
I'm stunned, just absolutely stunned that the cashier's response is to inflict such a degree of damage to those ladies. Sure, they're being huge bitches, they did "assault" him and they came after him.
But for god's sake, it was only two women. He was in a store full of customers and employees who all would have come to his aid had he been in any hint of danger.
And yes, I agree that you should have a right to defend yourself. Duh. But when you exercise that right by fucking attacking two women with a metal bar, then you've wayyyyyy overshot the boundaries of self-defense.
I guess I must have a warped sense of reality or something. That was fucking overkill from the moment he thought about picking up the bar. Both the ladies and the man should be charged. But mostly the man.
edit: Props to you, though, El Barto. Your threads never cease to be interesting, and for that, I applaud you.
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But for god's sake, it was only two women. He was in a store full of customers and employees who all would have come to his aid had he been in any hint of danger.
Yeah. The fact that his coworkers were urging him to stop is pretty telling. The guy was not in danger, yet he continued to beat the girl on the ground. The cashier seems to have a lust for blood. And, honestly, I thought that after watching the video for the first time, before I'd read the article pointing out that he's previously been convicted of manslaughter.
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One thing to remember here is that this cashier probably wasn't thinking. I'm not saying its an excuse... But if I'm working a McDonalds, especially in the shetto, I'm going to hate my job. If ANYBODY jumps over that counter, I'm most likely losing my cool/freaking out too,
I really hope this statement isn't taken as offensive. I would never say this in the GD, but I think in these parts of the forums you guys will not go off on me for it.
Maybe it's just me, or the area I live... But it is very rare to see a white person act out like this. I see episodes like this all the time at school, in the mall, at bars etc....99% of the time it's a minority. Why is this? I'm being completely serious here.
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I'm not defending anyone here. All are wrong in the video but when you feel your life in danger you'd loose it with a good chance of going over the line.
Best bet is all get charged with something.
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But for god's sake, it was only two women. He was in a store full of customers and employees who all would have come to his aid had he been in any hint of danger.
Yeah. The fact that his coworkers were urging him to stop is pretty telling. The guy was not in danger, yet he continued to beat the girl on the ground. The cashier seems to have a lust for blood. And, honestly, I thought that after watching the video for the first time, before I'd read the article pointing out that he's previously been convicted of manslaughter.
All they did was shout at him to stop, could have easily tackled him and taken the metal bar, but they just watched.
Group mentality is a dangerous thing. There's been countless examples of people not doing anything for someone in danger.
case in point. Last year there was a man in New Orleans who was stabbed and dying in the street, you know what people did? Call 911? Get him help? NOPE, most people took pictures or videos of him and some even posed by his dying body.
Another example, I can't remember the specifics, but a kid was raping a girl in the hallway of a school, and a huge group just gathered around watching him rape the poor girl, no one even tried to stop him.
Group Mentality is dangerous because you just think " Oh someone else will do something" and you don't want to be the one person to stand out.
Oi.
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at that point, i wouldn't have been surprised if he attacked them if/when they intervened
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But for god's sake, it was only two women. He was in a store full of customers and employees who all would have come to his aid had he been in any hint of danger.
Yeah. The fact that his coworkers were urging him to stop is pretty telling. The guy was not in danger, yet he continued to beat the girl on the ground. The cashier seems to have a lust for blood. And, honestly, I thought that after watching the video for the first time, before I'd read the article pointing out that he's previously been convicted of manslaughter.
All they did was shout at him to stop, could have easily tackled him and taken the metal bar, but they just watched.
Not to sound like a pussy here... But if a co-worker of mine just knocked out two people with a lead pipe and kept hitting them.... There's no way in hell I'm trying to get that pipe out of his hands.
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Group mentality is a dangerous thing. There's been countless examples of people not doing anything for someone in danger.
case in point. Last year there was a man in New Orleans who was stabbed and dying in the street, you know what people did? Call 911? Get him help? NOPE, most people took pictures or videos of him and some even posed by his dying body.
Another example, I can't remember the specifics, but a kid was raping a girl in the hallway of a school, and a huge group just gathered around watching him rape the poor girl, no one even tried to stop him.
Group Mentality is dangerous because you just think " Oh someone else will do something" and you don't want to be the one person to stand out.
Oi.
Made this a new post since others posted before I could finish editing.
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Group mentality is a dangerous thing. There's been countless examples of people not doing anything for someone in danger.
case in point. Last year there was a man in New Orleans who was stabbed and dying in the street, you know what people did? Call 911? Get him help? NOPE, most people took pictures or videos of him and some even posed by his dying body.
Another example, I can't remember the specifics, but a kid was raping a girl in the hallway of a school, and a huge group just gathered around watching him rape the poor girl, no one even tried to stop him.
Group Mentality is dangerous because you just think " Oh someone else will do something" and you don't want to be the one person to stand out.
Oi.
Made this a new post since others posted before I could finish editing.
Honestly, in cases like this I'd charge everyone watching for being accomplices. I hope this is what happened? It takes more than being simply passive/shy/afraid, it takes being either completely soulless or genuinely evil. I know often it is hard to oppose the group, but there are situations where a normal person should have a red light flashing in his head and doing something no matter what. If they don't, they're fucked up just as much as the person directly responsible and I don't want them around me just as much as him.
As for the thread... I agree with the general opinion. He defended himself and scared them - that's enough. Attacking further was crossing the line very far and wasn't any better than what they had done.
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But for god's sake, it was only two women. He was in a store full of customers and employees who all would have come to his aid had he been in any hint of danger.
Yeah. The fact that his coworkers were urging him to stop is pretty telling. The guy was not in danger, yet he continued to beat the girl on the ground. The cashier seems to have a lust for blood. And, honestly, I thought that after watching the video for the first time, before I'd read the article pointing out that he's previously been convicted of manslaughter.
All they did was shout at him to stop, could have easily tackled him and taken the metal bar, but they just watched.
Not to sound like a pussy here... But if a co-worker of mine just knocked out two people with a lead pipe and kept hitting them.... There's no way in hell I'm trying to get that pipe out of his hands.
Quite frankly, after reading the position of the average bloke in this forum, if I'm forced to defend myself with a solid piece of metal, I'm knocking out anybody that tries to take it from me. I don't think Shift Manager Dave is going to attack me, but I'd just as soon not let his misguided notion of reality leave me vulnerable to two crazed women now operating on adrenaline and fight or flight.
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I'd imagine "Shift Manager Dave" has a much better grip on reality than the guy who's just got attacked and is in the middle of beating someone on the floor with a lead pipe.
What I find most unlikely about your defense of the cashier is you seem to be suggesting that he actually had complete control of his faculties when the girls were coming after him and then still when he'd already beat one down and was showing no sign of stopping, like that last hit and "fuck yall" were somehow necessary to his survival. I find that highly unlikely, but I don't think any of us can know for sure just based on this video.
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I 100% agree with 73109 the cashier shouldn't have hit back and the situation most likely would have defused. I worked at a McDonald's as a manager for nearly 6 years. During that time I had countless drunkards try to fight me, customer's irate over various thing, I had to get in the middle of fights, a customer threw a steal debit machine mount at me and one time an escaped mental patient came in and threatened me with a knife. I had to deal with this nut job for almost a half hour before the police arrived. Not once did I have to throw a punch.
I'm not saying that fighting will never be an option but a sharp wit, a strong posture and a calm demeanor will defuse most situations. The cashier should have backed off called the cops and had her charged.
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Now if some chick decided to hit me and I wasn't at work, I may act very differently. Not to the extent that guy did but I may just slap the bitch back depending on whether or not I deserved it.
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1. I agree, in principle, that violence should be the LAST resort to solving a problem and should only be in self-defense.
2. It is not (IMHO, of course) "self defense" to continually bludgeon someone with a lead pipe who is already down on the floor. Yeah, I get it that we can't see the person being hit, but from the reported injuries (fractured skull/broken arm) the cashier went to far.
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Someone said earlier that watching the video made them more understanding of the cashier's actions, but for me all the video really showed was just how he really did take it too far - I kept expecting him to stop every time there was a long pause. Reading the story I was completely sympathetic to the cashier, and I still am a whole lot more sympathetic to him than to the customers, but I think the consensus is right that he went too far.
We can't see the women in the video, so I suppose we can't be completely informed on whether or not he had any possible reason to continue, as there was some debate about earlier. But most of the evidence suggests to me that it was no longer necessary self defence at all, and it was just blind rage making him continue to hit someone that was already down. As long as the girls were on the ground, which they appeared to be, the only reason to continue to attack them is if they were getting to their feet very quickly and seemed to still be very aggressive, which didn't appear to be the case given the time between the hits, or if they were reaching for a gun or maybe a knife - and I assume if they had been armed it would have been reported in the story. So while I suppose there is a possibility that it could still be considered self defence, it seems pretty unlikely. Once they were down on the ground he could have backed away even further - he would still have had the pipe if they did come back for him.
Having said that, even though he's in the wrong, I still think what happened is pretty understandable. He obviously had trouble controlling his anger, but it's not his fault he was put in a position where he would have to. He wasn't going out looking for a fight which he would end up taking too far, he was just working and those customers put him in a position where he had to defend himself, and then adrenaline, rage, whatever kicked in and he went too far. He should face the consequences for that, but ultimately the blame still lies with those customers.
And to people saying that he should not have defended himself at all, I completely disagree. He was just doing his job, and the customers weren't just "getting beligerent" any more, they physically attacked him. He shoved them off him and ran away into the back of the restaurant, out of the conflict, where the customers shouldn't be able to go, and they then jumped over the counter and ran after him. What other reason would they have for doing that if not to attempt to cause him further physical harm? If they were going to "cool down" if the cashier backed away, it seemed like him running away into the back of the restaurant would be the time they would do it. It seems like if the whole restaurant was "willing to defend him if there was any sign of danger", now would be the time to do it. And it strikes me as the type of area where people who are prepared to get aggressive in a situation like that could easily be carrying a knife, or even worse. So I completely understand his decision to defend himself, and while I absolutely don't agree with continuing to hit people in the head when (as far as I can tell) they were no longer a threat (as that seems like a good way to kill someone), I do kind of understand how he ended up doing it.
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No offense, 73109, but I think you are very naive.
100%. Cole, you're very smart.
A few weeks ago I was in a drunken brawl with my buddies. We went to a diner and my friend Rob went to the bathroom and someone was in it. Door was locked and he knocked and the dude yelled "fuck off!' and Rob yelled back "go fuck your mother!" He comes out to me and my other two friends and said 'guys, i think I started some shit" and told us what happened. The guy came waltzing out of the bathroom, and started talking shit to Rob. Rob was apologizing, albeit right in the guy's face. Guy wouldn't listen to it. He then asked to go outside to talk to not ruin people's dinner (at 3 am LOL). We go outside, 4 of us, one of him. He started throwing punches at Rob and I started to pull Rob off while my other friends pinned the other guy. Two of the girls he was with came out and fucking PEPPER SPRAYED Rob. Then they started kick and clawing at him. I lost my grip and Rob bolted. The girls started throwing rocks and bricks at us. Luckily, they were just as drunk as their friend, which wasn't as nearly as drunk as we were, and they missed.
All people are capable of being insanely violent. You have no idea of the person slapping you his high, drunk or just a fucking psychopath. You have to defend yourself. Yeah, the cashier ended up taking it too far, but in the beginning, I saw nothing wrong.
Your analogy fails in that I have absolutely no problem with what you did...You stopped the dude from hitting your friend and ran. You or anyone else never threw a punch. The only people that perpetuated the violence were the dude and his two chicks.
Also, probably not the greatest idea to tell a dude to go fuck his mother.
Well, that's because I don't my friend nor myself getting arrested :P I'm saying that people are capable of doing things like that, so it's completely understandable to react the way the cashier did, until he crossed the line.
@El Barto: IFKR. They're fucking crazy
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I don't know if I'm the only one here so thinks this, but after reading this/watching the video, my only thoughts are:
"Why the flying fuck did that cashier think it was necessary to beat them with A GODDAMN METAL BAR?!"
Like seriously. The rest of you are like, "well, I think the ladies should be charged," or "he went a little past self-defense there," etc.
I'm stunned, just absolutely stunned that the cashier's response is to inflict such a degree of damage to those ladies. Sure, they're being huge bitches, they did "assault" him and they came after him.
But for god's sake, it was only two women. He was in a store full of customers and employees who all would have come to his aid had he been in any hint of danger.
And yes, I agree that you should have a right to defend yourself. Duh. But when you exercise that right by fucking attacking two women with a metal bar, then you've wayyyyyy overshot the boundaries of self-defense.
I guess I must have a warped sense of reality or something. That was fucking overkill from the moment he thought about picking up the bar. Both the ladies and the man should be charged. But mostly the man.
edit: Props to you, though, El Barto. Your threads never cease to be interesting, and for that, I applaud you.
I assume you just glossed over my posts, right? :lol
I 100% agree with 73109 the cashier shouldn't have hit back and the situation most likely would have defused. I worked at a McDonald's as a manager for nearly 6 years. During that time I had countless drunkards try to fight me, customer's irate over various thing, I had to get in the middle of fights, a customer threw a steal debit machine mount at me and one time an escaped mental patient came in and threatened me with a knife. I had to deal with this nut job for almost a half hour before the police arrived. Not once did I have to throw a punch.
I'm not saying that fighting will never be an option but a sharp wit, a strong posture and a calm demeanor will defuse most situations. The cashier should have backed off called the cops and had her charged.
Fuckin' A, bro!
Well, that's because I don't my friend nor myself getting arrested :P I'm saying that people are capable of doing things like that, so it's completely understandable to react the way the cashier did, until he crossed the line.
Of course people can be fucking nuts. However, that does not mean acting just like those who are crazy would help the situation. The two sentences don't really go together.
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There is a time and place for violence. Violence has been made into such a dirty word. I'm not a hell of a lot older than you Cole, but when I was younger, my brothers and I would physically fight all the time. It was just horseplay, but I mean we would even throw punches at each other in our teenage years. We played dodgeball in gym class in elementary school. By the time I was a senior in HS, they wanted to change the rules were the objective was to knock bowling pins over instead of aiming for people because it was too violent. The teacher explained the rules dripping with sarcasm and then said "I can't tell you to not knock the pins over and just hit each other" and gave us a huge wink.
Like seriously? There is a time and place and if you don't get that shit out of your system, you're going to beat a customer at McDonald's with a lead pipe. I've gotten my ass whooped more than I've whooped ass, too. I understand pacifism, but I think pacifists are completely naive. There is always going to be someone who wants to hurt someone else. You ought to know how to defend yourself from those assholes.
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There is always going to be someone who wants to hurt someone else. You ought to know how to defend yourself from those assholes.
in that video, the cashier is attacked by two unarmed females (neither of whom seemed too dangerous). The cashier is a male (so the odds are he has a physical advantage over at least one of them) and he's surrounded by coworkers and bystanders.
He shouldn't of even had to defend himself, since there was nothing to defend himself from. Those ladies hardly count as a threat, imo. He could have done just fine holding them off with his bare hands, or just have run away (like Cole suggested; and I believe was the right option)
there was never the need to go grab the metal bar in the first place. That was just taking "self-defense" to an extreme, right off the bat.
but that's just my opinion
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There is always going to be someone who wants to hurt someone else. You ought to know how to defend yourself from those assholes.
in that video, the cashier is attacked by two unarmed females (neither of whom seemed too dangerous). The cashier is a male (so the odds are he has a physical advantage over at least one of them) and he's surrounded by coworkers and bystanders.
He shouldn't of even had to defend himself, since there was nothing to defend himself from. Those ladies hardly count as a threat, imo. He could have done just fine holding them off with his bare hands, or just have run away (like Cole suggested; and I believe was the right option)
there was never the need to go grab the metal bar in the first place. That was just taking "self-defense" to an extreme, right off the bat.
but that's just my opinion
I used to work with a guy who insisted that there wasn't a woman on Earth who could kick his ass. He was wrong too. :lol
Knowing nothing about the backgrounds of these girls, you make a very dangerous assumption. How do you know she didn't just wrap up 4 years at Bedford Hills? There's absolutely no reason to assume that the girls aren't dangerous, and having a size advantage doesn't really matter much either.
Also, where were all these other employees that you say would have helped him out? The altercation was well underway before it escalated, and I don't see any of his coworkers standing near by. Maybe if there had been three of them behind the counter as soon as they turned belligerent, then the two chicks wouldn't have felt so confrontational.
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fair points, but I still stand by my statement that pulling out a metal bar and attacking was out of bounds.
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A question for the New Yorkers: Why wasn't there security in that establishment? If you find a McDonalds down here that's open at 12:30, you'll also find an off duty cop working there. Even a nice restaurant in a pleasant suburb. A real cop, too. Not the rental variety. It's bad enough the cashier didn't have any backup whatsoever from his co-workers, but not having any security on hand would have made me pretty damned edgy.
I'm guessing that Micky-Dee's and the franchisee are getting sued from both ends on this one.
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But for god's sake, it was only two women. He was in a store full of customers and employees who all would have come to his aid had he been in any hint of danger.
You have much more faith in your fellow citizen than I do. I would never assume out of hand any passer-by, customer, or co-worker would come to my aid if I was being physically attacked.
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A question for the New Yorkers: Why wasn't there security in that establishment? If you find a McDonalds down here that's open at 12:30, you'll also find an off duty cop working there. Even a nice restaurant in a pleasant suburb. A real cop, too. Not the rental variety. It's bad enough the cashier didn't have any backup whatsoever from his co-workers, but not having any security on hand would have made me pretty damned edgy.
I'm guessing that Micky-Dee's and the franchisee are getting sued from both ends on this one.
This is never the case in NY or any place I have ever been to. So I think you are the odd one out in having a cop hanging around an establishment to protect it.
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A question for the New Yorkers: Why wasn't there security in that establishment? If you find a McDonalds down here that's open at 12:30, you'll also find an off duty cop working there. Even a nice restaurant in a pleasant suburb. A real cop, too. Not the rental variety. It's bad enough the cashier didn't have any backup whatsoever from his co-workers, but not having any security on hand would have made me pretty damned edgy.
I'm guessing that Micky-Dee's and the franchisee are getting sued from both ends on this one.
This is never the case in NY or any place I have ever been to. So I think you are the odd one out in having a cop hanging around an establishment to protect it.
It's common in my area too, if a place is open late. It's not a constant, but I certainly see it pretty often.
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I don't know about charging the guy with a felony, but he obviously has some rage issues. I think he went way over the line, past the point of self-defense - but he's not the responsible party. Charging him with anything seems ridiculous to me; the two women need to face some sort of penalty other than a sever ass-beating.
Adding security seems stupid to me. Seriously, how often does something like this happen? Also, from my experience at a concert hall, the security guard is just as likely to the beat the shit out of the women as that guy, or taze them, or go over the line in some other way. I think the best solution to problems like this is try and make the conditions exist whereby large scale poverty doesn't exist, so that people don't have to steal/break the law to survive.
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There is always a cop in the McDs in downtown Seattle, and I think it is actually SPD, not a rent-a-cop/private security guard. I'll see if I can verify after work through the windows, as I will never, ever go in there.
I think the best solution to problems like this is try and make the conditions exist whereby large scale poverty doesn't exist, so that people don't have to steal/break the law to survive.
While I agree with you in principle, this may not be the best example to make this argument. The gal was paying for her Big Macs with a $50 bill, after all. :)
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I also I should add that Greenwich Village is in no way shape or form a ghetto. It's a really nice area.
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A question for the New Yorkers: Why wasn't there security in that establishment? If you find a McDonalds down here that's open at 12:30, you'll also find an off duty cop working there. Even a nice restaurant in a pleasant suburb. A real cop, too. Not the rental variety. It's bad enough the cashier didn't have any backup whatsoever from his co-workers, but not having any security on hand would have made me pretty damned edgy.
I'm guessing that Micky-Dee's and the franchisee are getting sued from both ends on this one.
This is never the case in NY or any place I have ever been to. So I think you are the odd one out in having a cop hanging around an establishment to protect it.
Ya I don't see any cops in NYC fast food...
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There is always a cop in the McDs in downtown Seattle, and I think it is actually SPD, not a rent-a-cop/private security guard. I'll see if I can verify after work through the windows, as I will never, ever go in there.
Then I sorta have to ask why public funds are so obviously benefiting one private business so much, or atleast ask if McDonalds is doing something in return for such a service. I guess I'd say a cop's presence would probably deter the incident from happening at all, but if it actually happened, things still might be uglier.
I think the best solution to problems like this is try and make the conditions exist whereby large scale poverty doesn't exist, so that people don't have to steal/break the law to survive.
While I agree with you in principle, this may not be the best example to make this argument. The gal was paying for her Big Macs with a $50 bill, after all. :)
[/quote]
I guess I was assuming it was counterfeit, or why else would the woman make such a big fuss - and actually, that could be a good reason why the women aren't being charged with anything, I bet, they confessed and got a plea bargain.
Also, why is having a $50 sign of great wealth? I get $50's from time to time, and I'm hardly wealthy.
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If they're going to make that big of a deal over a $50, I completely think they're suspicious, I mean honestly, it wouldn't have taken that long to check it, so I'm thinking it was a counterfeit and they got violent over fear of getting caught.
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Sec. 35.20 Justification; use of physical force in defense of premises and in defense of a person in the course of burglary.
1. Any person may use physical force upon another person when he reasonably believes such to be necessary to prevent or terminate what he reasonably believes to be the commission or attempted commission by such other person of a crime involving damage to premises. He may use any degree of physical force, other than deadly physical force, which he reasonably believes to be necessary for such purpose, and he may use deadly physical force if he reasonably believes such to be necessary to prevent or terminate the commission or attempted commission of arson.
2. A person in possession or control of any premises, or a person licensed or privileged to be thereon or therein, may use physical force upon another person when he reasonably believes such to be necessary to prevent or terminate what he reasonably believes to be the commission or attempted commission by such other person of a criminal trespass upon such premises. He may use any degree of physical force, other than deadly physical force, which he reasonably believes to be necessary for such purpose, and he may use deadly physical force in order to prevent or terminate the commission or attempted commission of arson, as prescribed in subdivision one, or in the course of a burglary or attempted burglary, as prescribed in subdivision three
So not only do we have the self defense angle, but it would appear that the State of New York also authorizes him to beat the living shit out of her as soon as she jumps over the counter.
This has no bearing on the question of whether or not he went to far, but it does address his ability to defend the restaurant to a degree he sees as reasonable.
If they're going to make that big of a deal over a $50, I completely think they're suspicious, I mean honestly, it wouldn't have taken that long to check it, so I'm thinking it was a counterfeit and they got violent over fear of getting caught.
If I had to take a guess, he was following SOP and investigating large bills, and the girl took it personally. I know I certainly don't like people suspecting me of being a thief. She didn't strike me as the sort that'd correctly interpret the distinction between suspecting everybody and suspecting her personally.
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I've never seen anyone get upset over having a bill checked, ever. Especially not to such a degree as to start slapping and jumping over counters and shit. I've seen customers pissed over a lot of things, but that's never been one of them.
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Never discount a woman's ability to lose her shit over absolutely anything. :lol
In all seriousness, I suspect there was already static between them. I'm merely pointing out why she might have flipped out over a legit fifty.
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Never discount a woman's ability to lose her shit over absolutely anything. :lol
:lol :tup
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If it was just a verbal argument, it'd be a non-issue. The girl jumped over the counter and the guy was right to INITIALLY defend himself (i.e. should get her down and then restrain her until the cops arrive). He went too far with the beating and wasn't he just out of prison for manslaughter? These people are all members of the culture of violence in America. These violent outbreaks occur at McD and Denny's constantly.
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Never discount a woman's ability to lose her shit over absolutely anything. :lol
:lol :tup
I'll sign on with that one too :lol :tup
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Never discount a woman's ability to lose her shit over absolutely anything. :lol
:lol :tup
I'll sign on with that one too :lol :tup
Possible, but improbable. I never once saw a drunk chick do anything like that when I worked in a bar, or heard about anything like that happening.
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Happy to see this: https://www.cnn.com/2011/12/03/justice/new-york--mcdonalds-beating/index.html?eref=mrss_igoogle_cnn
A fast-food worker whose run-in with two unruly customers was captured on cell phone video last month will not be indicted on assault charges, prosecutors said Saturday.
A grand jury voted against indicting Rayon McIntosh, who was seen allegedly swinging a metal object against two patrons at a McDonald's restaurant in Manhattan's Greenwich Village.
And the girls still have their charges pending. It's a shame that the guy had to spend so long at Rikers, but at least it worked out in the end. Now he's planning on suing McDonald's, and he'll probably settle very nicely when it's all said and done.
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Why does he have a case against McDonalds?
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So does this guy get any punishment at all?
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So does this guy get any punishment at all?
You mean aside from the 45 days he spent at Riker's Island? He was no-billed. They won't be bringing any charges against him.
Why does he have a case against McDonalds?
For failing to provide adequate security. This applies to pretty much any place of business. He'll sue and he'd win except that McD's will settle this pretty quickly.
There is always a cop in the McDs in downtown Seattle, and I think it is actually SPD, not a rent-a-cop/private security guard. I'll see if I can verify after work through the windows, as I will never, ever go in there.
Then I sorta have to ask why public funds are so obviously benefiting one private business so much, or atleast ask if McDonalds is doing something in return for such a service. I guess I'd say a cop's presence would probably deter the incident from happening at all, but if it actually happened, things still might be uglier.
There's nothing public about it. The cops are working on their own time as employees of the store they're protecting. All PD's have policies about off duty security work. Some don't allow it. Others allow it but not in uniform. Yet others like Dallas let's you work in uniform. The Central Market down the street has an off-duty tactical officer riding around on a mountain bike all day.
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So does this guy get any punishment at all?
You mean aside from the 45 days he spent at Riker's Island? He was no-billed. They won't be bringing any charges against him.
Ok. I didn't see that mentioned anywhere in their article, and I didn't know even know what it was until you just mentioned it and I Googled it. In that case, I'd say he doesn't need any further charges anyway. But he doesn't deserve a thing more out of this imo.
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So does this guy get any punishment at all?
You mean aside from the 45 days he spent at Riker's Island? He was no-billed. They won't be bringing any charges against him.
Ok. I didn't see that mentioned anywhere in their article, and I didn't know even know what it was until you just mentioned it and I Googled it. In that case, I'd say he doesn't need any further charges anyway. But he doesn't deserve a thing more out of this imo.
He couldn't afford bail, so he's been in lock-up ever since. He got out yesterday.
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There is always a cop in the McDs in downtown Seattle, and I think it is actually SPD, not a rent-a-cop/private security guard. I'll see if I can verify after work through the windows, as I will never, ever go in there.
Then I sorta have to ask why public funds are so obviously benefiting one private business so much, or atleast ask if McDonalds is doing something in return for such a service. I guess I'd say a cop's presence would probably deter the incident from happening at all, but if it actually happened, things still might be uglier.
There's nothing public about it. The cops are working on their own time as employees of the store they're protecting. All PD's have policies about off duty security work. Some don't allow it. Others allow it but not in uniform. Yet others like Dallas let's you work in uniform. The Central Market down the street has an off-duty tactical officer riding around on a mountain bike all day.
I'm fine with that, but I"m not sure that's always the case.
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So does this guy get any punishment at all?
You mean aside from the 45 days he spent at Riker's Island? He was no-billed. They won't be bringing any charges against him.
Ok. I didn't see that mentioned anywhere in their article, and I didn't know even know what it was until you just mentioned it and I Googled it. In that case, I'd say he doesn't need any further charges anyway. But he doesn't deserve a thing more out of this imo.
Agreed
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There is always a cop in the McDs in downtown Seattle, and I think it is actually SPD, not a rent-a-cop/private security guard. I'll see if I can verify after work through the windows, as I will never, ever go in there.
Then I sorta have to ask why public funds are so obviously benefiting one private business so much, or atleast ask if McDonalds is doing something in return for such a service. I guess I'd say a cop's presence would probably deter the incident from happening at all, but if it actually happened, things still might be uglier.
There's nothing public about it. The cops are working on their own time as employees of the store they're protecting. All PD's have policies about off duty security work. Some don't allow it. Others allow it but not in uniform. Yet others like Dallas let's you work in uniform. The Central Market down the street has an off-duty tactical officer riding around on a mountain bike all day.
I'm fine with that, but I"m not sure that's always the case.
I suspect that thanks to our good friend vicarious liability, it usually is the case. Police departments have enough exposure to lawsuits. The ones that arise from actions during a 12 hour duty shift are a cost of doing business. They don't need the added exposure from working security at every grocery store in town, as well. Barney Fife plugs some kid for shoplifting, you want Mom and Dad suing the Try-and-save, not the police department. That's why most departments don't want their cops wearing the uniform for such jobs.
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In England you can pre-emptively strike before being attacked if you believe you are under threat.