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General => Archive => Political and Religious => Topic started by: Perpetual Change on September 21, 2011, 12:34:44 AM

Title: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: Perpetual Change on September 21, 2011, 12:34:44 AM
What a headline:

https://nation.foxnews.com/bill-clinton/2011/09/20/impeached-president-says-global-warming-deniers-embarrass-america
"Impeached President Says Global Warming Deniers Embarrass America"
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: MasterShakezula on September 21, 2011, 12:38:45 AM
Best headline since Dewey beat Truman.   :facepalm:
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: antigoon on September 21, 2011, 08:55:03 AM
Oh my God :lol
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: El Barto on September 21, 2011, 10:20:29 AM
To be fair, I don't hold anything from FOX Nation against them as a news outfit.  Their standard headlines, while not as overt, are equally ridiculous though.
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: Progmetty on September 21, 2011, 10:31:41 AM
Gosh :lol
They almost went with "Head Receiving President Says Global Warming Deniers Embarrass America"
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: William Wallace on September 21, 2011, 10:50:48 AM
It's a terrible headline, but my disdain for Clinton balances out that for Fox News. I would have made the headline even more coarse: "grandstanding, self-righteous attention whore offers unsolicited opinion on climate change."
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: lordxizor on September 21, 2011, 10:57:31 AM
"grandstanding, self-righteous attention whore offers unsolicited opinion on climate change."
That sounds a lot like an Onion headline. :)
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: Adami on September 21, 2011, 10:58:00 AM
It's a terrible headline, but my disdain for Clinton balances out that for Fox News. I would have made the headline even more course: "grandstanding, self-righteous attention whore offers unsolicited opinion on climate change."

Good to know where you stand on objective journalism.  :tup
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: antigoon on September 21, 2011, 11:00:27 AM
grandstanding, self-righteous attention whore

I.e., any head of state.
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: William Wallace on September 21, 2011, 11:29:42 AM
It's a terrible headline, but my disdain for Clinton balances out that for Fox News. I would have made the headline even more course: "grandstanding, self-righteous attention whore offers unsolicited opinion on climate change."

Good to know where you stand on objective journalism.  :tup
You're most welcome.
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: kirksnosehair on September 21, 2011, 01:25:31 PM
Gosh :lol
They almost went with "Head Receiving President Says Global Warming Deniers Embarrass America"

Fuck, that made me laugh really hard  :rollin
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: PraXis on September 21, 2011, 03:00:55 PM
Well... that rapist WAS impeached... for lying under oath.
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: PlaysLikeMyung on September 21, 2011, 03:08:12 PM
Well... that rapist WAS impeached... for lying under oath.

rapist?

learn to fucking history
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: Adami on September 21, 2011, 03:10:42 PM
Well... that rapist WAS impeached... for lying under oath.

Hey, it wasn't rape, I technically submitted.

I mean, you would too, the man is charming as hell.
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: El Barto on September 21, 2011, 03:21:18 PM
I suspect he's referring to Anita Broderick.  It appears that as long as it slanders the other side,  unsubstantiated accusations are automatically statements of fact.
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: snapple on September 21, 2011, 03:34:56 PM
Clinton WAS impeached. He didn't pass the impeachment process nor was he removed from office.
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: William Wallace on September 21, 2011, 03:56:47 PM
"grandstanding, self-righteous attention whore offers unsolicited opinion on climate change."
That sounds a lot like an Onion headline. :)
Well, if you're going to commit character assassination, you mind as well be funny. I'm talking to you, Fox News.
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: GuineaPig on September 21, 2011, 04:12:57 PM
I don't know if it's as good as "Obama's Hip-Hop BBQ Didn't Create Jobs." (https://nation.foxnews.com/president-obama/2011/08/05/obama-parties-chris-rock-jay-z-and-whoopi-while-rome-burns)
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: kirksnosehair on September 21, 2011, 04:27:51 PM
"rapist"   :rollin

Dawg was just that:  A DAWG   :metal

Best president we've had, probably in 50 years, maybe more.  The economy literally fucking EXPLODED under his watch.  And the way it works in American politics, in case you haven't been paying attention is, if it happens on your watch, you get credit, good, bad or ugly.

Bill Clinton is pretty much my hero.  I wish he hadn't cheated on his wife, because that's something I don't condone and would never do, but we, as a nation, pretty much idolize JFK and he was well known for cheating on his wife.

I won't hold President Clinton to a different standard.  This country FLOURISHED under his leadership, and BOTH presidents since have, quite frankly, sucked a mile of wombat ass in comparison.





Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: William Wallace on September 21, 2011, 05:00:15 PM
I don't know if it's as good as "Obama's Hip-Hop BBQ Didn't Create Jobs." (https://nation.foxnews.com/president-obama/2011/08/05/obama-parties-chris-rock-jay-z-and-whoopi-while-rome-burns)
I agree. But the fact that it generated an Onion comparison is satisfactory.
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: Sigz on September 21, 2011, 05:20:28 PM
I don't know if it's as good as "Obama's Hip-Hop BBQ Didn't Create Jobs." (https://nation.foxnews.com/president-obama/2011/08/05/obama-parties-chris-rock-jay-z-and-whoopi-while-rome-burns)

Holy shit.
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: AngelBack on September 21, 2011, 08:39:56 PM
Guess you guys are all blind to the fact that ABC, NBC, CBS, PBS, CNN, MSNBC are all so far up Obama's ass that he has to take a shit for them to know what to report.  I thought prog fans were supposed to be more intelligent than Green Day, A7X, GAGA fans.  Whatever...
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: El Barto on September 21, 2011, 08:51:24 PM
Personally,  I really get a kick out of being called stupid by people who don't even understand the particulars of the topic at hand.
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: Perpetual Change on September 21, 2011, 08:52:32 PM
I don't know if it's as good as "Obama's Hip-Hop BBQ Didn't Create Jobs." (https://nation.foxnews.com/president-obama/2011/08/05/obama-parties-chris-rock-jay-z-and-whoopi-while-rome-burns)

Does this website exist just to prove every negative stereotype people have about Republicans?
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: AngelBack on September 21, 2011, 09:17:04 PM
Funny how you can paint a scenario and those that know they belong assume you were talking about them.  Priceless.
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: William Wallace on September 21, 2011, 09:26:44 PM
Guess you guys are all blind to the fact that ABC, NBC, CBS, PBS, CNN, MSNBC are all so far up Obama's ass that he has to take a shit for them to know what to report.  I thought prog fans were supposed to be more intelligent than Green Day, A7X, GAGA fans.  Whatever...

If you spend more than eight seconds before posting in P/R, you'll learn that few people here are Obama fans, let alone mainstream media fans. Still, it's not as if the suckery of the alphabet soup you listed justifies that of Fox.
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: AngelBack on September 21, 2011, 09:37:33 PM
It's all going to be ok guys, just sit down and color.  I know reality is a cold hearted bastard, the adults will keep you safe. 
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: antigoon on September 21, 2011, 09:41:56 PM
:lol
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: Perpetual Change on September 21, 2011, 09:48:52 PM
It's all going to be ok guys, just sit down and color.  I know reality is a cold hearted bastard, the adults will keep you safe. 

And the reality is?
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: El Barto on September 21, 2011, 09:52:32 PM
It's quite easy to make simple assumptions about one's intention when their writing reflects simple-mindedness. 
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: MetalMike06 on September 21, 2011, 09:55:49 PM
Gosh :lol
They almost went with "Head Receiving President Says Global Warming Deniers Embarrass America"

 :rollin
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: AngelBack on September 21, 2011, 10:13:33 PM
I'm encouraged about the interest in reality, the beginning of wisdom is an acknowlegement of lack of understanding.  So, we will start with the basics:

1.  There is a God
2. There is a right and wrong
3. You have to learn the right and wrong.

Once you get these down, let me know. 
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: Perpetual Change on September 21, 2011, 10:14:52 PM
1.  There is a God
2. There is a right and wrong
3. You have to learn the right and wrong.

I agree with all three of these.

Now what are you going on about?
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: yeshaberto on September 21, 2011, 10:43:10 PM
1.  There is a God
2. There is a right and wrong
3. You have to learn the right and wrong.

I agree with all three of these.

Now what are you going on about?

this
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: Dr. DTVT on September 21, 2011, 11:06:51 PM
1.  There is a God
2. There is a right and wrong
3. You have to learn the right and wrong.

I agree with all three of these.

Now what are you going on about?

this

(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/_LWAgZaJakuk/S07K2K7kJZI/AAAAAAAAA1M/JPfqtWQcoVw/s400/Seabass+Cam+Neely.jpg)
Ban his ass, C. Bass!

Those headlines are awesome.

Be extension, they should have referred to Dick Cheney as a "Shotgun wielding human hunter"
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: Sigz on September 21, 2011, 11:27:38 PM
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/_LWAgZaJakuk/S07K2K7kJZI/AAAAAAAAA1M/JPfqtWQcoVw/s400/Seabass+Cam+Neely.jpg)
Ban his ass, C. Bass!

 :rollin :rollin :rollin
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: MasterShakezula on September 21, 2011, 11:32:13 PM
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/_LWAgZaJakuk/S07K2K7kJZI/AAAAAAAAA1M/JPfqtWQcoVw/s400/Seabass+Cam+Neely.jpg)
Ban his ass, C. Bass!

You rang?
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: GuineaPig on September 22, 2011, 05:52:45 AM
But what if AngelBack is secretly Wendel Clark? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FBIuvdZwwxk)
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: Super Dude on September 22, 2011, 07:38:19 AM
I'm encouraged about the interest in reality, the beginning of wisdom is an acknowlegement of lack of understanding.  So, we will start with the basics:

1.  There is a God
2. There is a right and wrong
3. You have to learn the right and wrong.

Once you get these down, let me know.

Oh, this is gonna be fun.  I think I'll just hunker down over here and :corn...
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: XJDenton on September 22, 2011, 08:30:18 AM
I'm encouraged about the interest in reality, the beginning of wisdom is an acknowlegement of lack of understanding.  So, we will start with the basics:

1.  There is a God
2. There is a right and wrong
3. You have to learn the right and wrong.

Once you get these down, let me know. 

Oh boy.
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: El JoNNo on September 22, 2011, 08:47:06 AM
I'm encouraged about the interest in reality, the beginning of wisdom is an acknowlegement of lack of understanding.  So, we will start with the basics:

1.  There is a God
2. There is a right and wrong
3. You have to learn the right and wrong.

Once you get these down, let me know.

This is a god?!?!?!
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: Perpetual Change on September 22, 2011, 07:14:24 PM
Looks like Angelback had nothing.
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: William Wallace on September 23, 2011, 01:02:58 AM
Looks like Angelback had nothing.
I was hoping he'd start quoting Ann Coulter.
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: YtseBitsySpider on September 23, 2011, 06:42:57 AM
You guys don't get much compettion over here.....unless you count Andy.

He was entertaining at least.
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: Super Dude on September 23, 2011, 07:02:31 AM
Lame.
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: Perpetual Change on September 23, 2011, 08:21:30 AM
You guys don't get much compettion over here.....unless you count Andy.

He was entertaining at least.

There's plenty of differing opinions over here.

It just turns out no intelligent posters (i.e., those who can hold civilized discussions with one another) are willing to defend Fox New's journalistic integrity. Go figure.
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: William Wallace on September 24, 2011, 11:23:29 AM
You guys don't get much compettion over here.....unless you count Andy.

He was entertaining at least.

There's plenty of differing opinions over here.

It just turns out no intelligent posters (i.e., those who can hold civilized discussions with one another) are willing to defend Fox New's journalistic integrity. Go figure.
Yeah, they don't have any. But as I said in the other journalism thread, once you figure out how to get your news from the people that the media get it from, which is very easy, cable news seems like an unnecessary evil. I still read newspapers, but now it's an exercise in critical thinking (e.g. "how does this compare to what I know about the topic?"
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: SnakeEyes on September 26, 2011, 01:08:57 AM
"rapist"   :rollin

Dawg was just that:  A DAWG   :metal

Best president we've had, probably in 50 years, maybe more.  The economy literally fucking EXPLODED under his watch.  And the way it works in American politics, in case you haven't been paying attention is, if it happens on your watch, you get credit, good, bad or ugly.

Bill Clinton is pretty much my hero.  I wish he hadn't cheated on his wife, because that's something I don't condone and would never do, but we, as a nation, pretty much idolize JFK and he was well known for cheating on his wife.

I won't hold President Clinton to a different standard.  This country FLOURISHED under his leadership, and BOTH presidents since have, quite frankly, sucked a mile of wombat ass in comparison.

Yeah.  And, then the economy IMPLODED in 2008 because of Clinton's policies.  And, then there was also the little issue of ..... September 11th.  I love how people completely forget the fact that 9-11 didn't just "happen" one day with absolutely no thought or preparation.  The planning of 9-11 went way back into Clinton's presidency when Bin Laden threatened the U.S. on ..... get this.... CLINTON'S WATCH and.... get this.... PLANNED IT under..... get this..... CLINTON'S WATCH. 

So, do you still think he was such a "great" president?
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: Perpetual Change on September 26, 2011, 01:36:54 AM
Yeah.  And, then the economy IMPLODED in 2008 because of Clinton's policies.  And, then there was also the little issue of ..... September 11th.  I love how people completely forget the fact that 9-11 didn't just "happen" one day with absolutely no thought or preparation.  The planning of 9-11 went way back into Clinton's presidency when Bin Laden threatened the U.S. on ..... get this.... CLINTON'S WATCH and.... get this.... PLANNED IT under..... get this..... CLINTON'S WATCH. 

So, do you still think he was such a "great" president?

What a jump. Maybe we should find out who was president when Osama bin Laden was conceived and blame it on them?
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: Progmetty on September 26, 2011, 02:05:11 AM
That was Eisenhower PC. Eisenhower's WATCH!
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: Perpetual Change on September 26, 2011, 03:34:52 AM
Well, in that case:

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/63/Dwight_D._Eisenhower%2C_official_photo_portrait%2C_May_29%2C_1959.jpg/220px-Dwight_D._Eisenhower%2C_official_photo_portrait%2C_May_29%2C_1959.jpg)
WORST PRESIDENT EVER
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: Orion1967 on September 26, 2011, 05:51:50 AM
It's a terrible headline, but my disdain for Clinton balances out that for Fox News. I would have made the headline even more course: "grandstanding, self-righteous attention whore offers unsolicited opinion on climate change."

Good to know where you stand on objective journalism.  :tup

oxymoron...

there IS NO such thing as objective journalism anymore...
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: Super Dude on September 26, 2011, 05:53:33 AM
There is no such thing as objective journalism ever.  Anyone who thinks there ever was and ever will be is naive.  Humans are by nature biased, and all journalism ever will reflect this fact of life.
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: Orion1967 on September 26, 2011, 06:02:49 AM
Oh but I also forgot to add the question of: "What part of that headline is incorrect?"  not seeing it.
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: Perpetual Change on September 26, 2011, 06:58:25 AM
Oh but I also forgot to add the question of: "What part of that headline is incorrect?"  not seeing it.

The part where it included extraneous information for the sole purpose of adding political bias beyond what can be expected of a professional in the field.
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: SnakeEyes on September 26, 2011, 08:16:18 AM
What a jump. Maybe we should find out who was president when Osama bin Laden was conceived and blame it on them?

No, that wouldn't make sense, you see, because that would be completely out of context.  I was replying directly to someone who was praising Bill Clinton and talking about how the country "flourished" during his time in office.  On the surface, it appeared to be good, but underneath, things were really bad and they affected us later.  And, the problem is that the "flourishing" had nothing to do with Clinton while the bad things that affected us later WERE within his control - he just didn't do anything about them. 
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: El Barto on September 26, 2011, 08:30:21 AM
What a jump. Maybe we should find out who was president when Osama bin Laden was conceived and blame it on them?

No, that wouldn't make sense, you see, because that would be completely out of context.  I was replying directly to someone who was praising Bill Clinton and talking about how the country "flourished" during his time in office.  On the surface, it appeared to be good, but underneath, things were really bad and they affected us later.  And, the problem is that the "flourishing" had nothing to do with Clinton while the bad things that affected us later WERE within his control - he just didn't do anything about them.
Wag the dog.
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: SnakeEyes on September 26, 2011, 08:44:23 AM
Even if "wag the dog" had truly been a concern for Clinton, that says to me that he didn't have a backbone.  He cared more about the public's perception of him and his legacy than he did about real problems that actually developed into terrible things (9-11 being the biggest). 

So, even with "wag the dog," he still loses. 
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: GuineaPig on September 26, 2011, 08:45:46 AM
Why does Clinton get blamed for 9/11 and Bush doesn't?
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: Perpetual Change on September 26, 2011, 08:49:31 AM
Why does Clinton get blamed for 9/11 and Bush doesn't?

It almost certainly has to do with the color of his tie.
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: SnakeEyes on September 26, 2011, 08:50:30 AM
Who said Bush doesn't get blamed?  No one was praising Bush.  However, Clinton was MORE responsible.  Attack after attack happened during Clinton's time, they issued the original threat to the U.S. during his time, they planned 9-11 during his time and, to top it off, Clinton easily could have stopped it if he had a backbone, which he didn't.  As far as I know, the "blame" that Bush gets is that Condi Rice received memos that planes were going to be used a weapons inside the U.S. and she didn't follow through with informing Bush or something along those lines.  That's bad, but Clinton's is worse. 
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: 7StringedBeast on September 26, 2011, 08:52:23 AM
Clinton had plenty of warning signs that shit was going down.  The world trade center bombing, the bombing of the USS Cole, which was a Bin Laden job etc.  I don't think either president deserves blame really.  I think most of the blame should be put on the people who planned and carried out the attack. 

Also, we were bombing foreign countries under the Clinton administration without declaring war on anyone so the US foreign policy that people tend to have a huge problem with didn't really start with Bush.

As for the economy.  The reason it flourished under Clinton was because of the internet boom.  Once that died, what was left?  Clinton didn't cause the good economy that's for sure.
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: Perpetual Change on September 26, 2011, 08:55:09 AM
Clinton had plenty of warning signs that shit was going down.  The world trade center bombing, the bombing of the USS Cole, which was a Bin Laden job etc.  I don't think either president deserves blame really.  I think most of the blame should be put on the people who planned and carried out the attack. 

Also, we were bombing foreign countries under the Clinton administration without declaring war on anyone so the US foreign policy that people tend to have a huge problem with didn't really start with Bush.

As for the economy.  The reason it flourished under Clinton was because of the internet boom.  Once that died, what was left?  Clinton didn't cause the good economy that's for sure.

Yeah, this I can all pretty much agree with.


Though, hey, the guy balanced the budget regardless.
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: El Barto on September 26, 2011, 08:59:17 AM
Even if "wag the dog" had truly been a concern for Clinton, that says to me that he didn't have a backbone.
I agree with this, but that's not the point you've been trying to make.  Clinton spent quite a bit of time worrying about al Qaeda, while Bush completely ignored it because he was more interested in Iraq.  Bush had 10 months of PDB's, and like most things,  was completely uninterested in them.  Personally,  I'd rank fruitless efforts light years ahead of willful negligence. 
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: Orion1967 on September 26, 2011, 11:42:37 AM
Oh but I also forgot to add the question of: "What part of that headline is incorrect?"  not seeing it.

The part where it included extraneous information for the sole purpose of adding political bias beyond what can be expected of a professional in the field.

Yeah beacuse the left leaning media outlets NEVER do that do they? LMAO.

But just for shits-n-giggles lets break it down... "Impeached President Says Global Warming Deniers Embarrass America"

Impeached President? Check
Impeached Presidenet says? Check
Impeached President Says Global Warming Deniers Embarrass America? Check
So yup the headline is 100% factual.  i will debate though the accuracy of his statement, since he lumped us all (Americans that is) together and said we are all embarrased... I for one am an American and I think there are indicators that actions of humans in general are certainly not preventing global climate change but are we causing it? Nope not doing it.  Global climate change has been going on for millions of years... most of which oddly enough occurred BEFORE the advent of CFC's and the internal combustion engine. So to address Billy-Boy's statement I am not embarrased at all by those who deny we are the cause of "global warming".

However to play devil's advocate, consider this headline https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/house-republicans-remain-silent-for-most-of-obamas-speech/2011/09/08/gIQAy3NXDK_story.html (https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/house-republicans-remain-silent-for-most-of-obamas-speech/2011/09/08/gIQAy3NXDK_story.html) for the most part it is not quite as obvious a rhetoric as the Fox headline, however it is also in fact 100% correct YET lends itself to the belief and position that the house republicans SHOULD have been cheering, hooping, and clapping at the pile of crap the Obama was shoveling in that speech.  Not trying to sidetrack the thread mind you with another political avenue (the speech) just citing an example where rhetoric comes into play on both sides of the aisle, its just that the Dems are admittedly slicker when it comes to doing it.
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: Orion1967 on September 26, 2011, 11:44:34 AM

Though, hey, the guy balanced the budget regardless.
Huh?
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: Scheavo on September 26, 2011, 01:25:13 PM
What a jump. Maybe we should find out who was president when Osama bin Laden was conceived and blame it on them?

No, that wouldn't make sense, you see, because that would be completely out of context.  I was replying directly to someone who was praising Bill Clinton and talking about how the country "flourished" during his time in office.  On the surface, it appeared to be good, but underneath, things were really bad and they affected us later.  And, the problem is that the "flourishing" had nothing to do with Clinton while the bad things that affected us later WERE within his control - he just didn't do anything about them.

If you wanna take this route, we have to go all the way back to Reagan. You also have to ignore some of the most important negative effects from the past decade, the war in Iraq, Bush Tax Cuts and his lax regulation.

Who said Bush doesn't get blamed?  No one was praising Bush.  However, Clinton was MORE responsible.  Attack after attack happened during Clinton's time, they issued the original threat to the U.S. during his time, they planned 9-11 during his time and, to top it off, Clinton easily could have stopped it if he had a backbone, which he didn't.  As far as I know, the "blame" that Bush gets is that Condi Rice received memos that planes were going to be used a weapons inside the U.S. and she didn't follow through with informing Bush or something along those lines.  That's bad, but Clinton's is worse.

Wow, really? You seem to forget that Clinton responded to this by having constant meetings about Al Qaueda. Richard Clarke ran them, then Bushy decided they weren't important or something, got rid of the meetings, fired the expert, ignored the issue, and something BIG happens. There was intelligence on the matter, as you point to a fucking memo, thanks to Clinton era policies, and Bush not only dropped the ball, he quit the game.. I'd hardly say that makes Clinton more responsible.

You're forgetting how much 9/11 changed peoples awareness of this issue, and you can't expect a President to follow up on any and every potential threat to the nation. What do you propose Clinton to have done? Act upon intelligence that wasn't available? Start a War to kill a guy no one really knows about, cares about, or thinks is a threat?
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: Super Dude on September 26, 2011, 02:57:24 PM
You'd think Bush was the most loved president since Reagan.
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: Perpetual Change on September 26, 2011, 06:02:05 PM
Oh but I also forgot to add the question of: "What part of that headline is incorrect?"  not seeing it.

The part where it included extraneous information for the sole purpose of adding political bias beyond what can be expected of a professional in the field.

Yeah beacuse the left leaning media outlets NEVER do that do they? LMAO.

CNN, MSNBC, and so-on never do.
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: ehra on September 26, 2011, 06:28:52 PM
I don't even get why people use that argument to try to defend their side. The best defense you can come up with to excuse Fox's shitty journalism is to say the other side is shitty too? Might as well not even bother at that point.
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: Perpetual Change on September 26, 2011, 06:52:31 PM
Every once in awhile, someone asserts that the left's cable networks are just as bad. This argument literally gets blown to pieces every time. Fox has such a long, well-recorded history of being unfair and evil.
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: Scheavo on September 26, 2011, 07:29:06 PM
Oh but I also forgot to add the question of: "What part of that headline is incorrect?"  not seeing it.

The part where it included extraneous information for the sole purpose of adding political bias beyond what can be expected of a professional in the field.

Yeah beacuse the left leaning media outlets NEVER do that do they? LMAO.

But just for shits-n-giggles lets break it down... "Impeached President Says Global Warming Deniers Embarrass America"

Impeached President? Check
Impeached Presidenet says? Check
Impeached President Says Global Warming Deniers Embarrass America? Check
So yup the headline is 100% factual.  i will debate though the accuracy of his statement, since he lumped us all (Americans that is) together and said we are all embarrased... I for one am an American and I think there are indicators that actions of humans in general are certainly not preventing global climate change but are we causing it? Nope not doing it.  Global climate change has been going on for millions of years... most of which oddly enough occurred BEFORE the advent of CFC's and the internal combustion engine. So to address Billy-Boy's statement I am not embarrased at all by those who deny we are the cause of "global warming".

However to play devil's advocate, consider this headline https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/house-republicans-remain-silent-for-most-of-obamas-speech/2011/09/08/gIQAy3NXDK_story.html (https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/house-republicans-remain-silent-for-most-of-obamas-speech/2011/09/08/gIQAy3NXDK_story.html) for the most part it is not quite as obvious a rhetoric as the Fox headline, however it is also in fact 100% correct YET lends itself to the belief and position that the house republicans SHOULD have been cheering, hooping, and clapping at the pile of crap the Obama was shoveling in that speech.  Not trying to sidetrack the thread mind you with another political avenue (the speech) just citing an example where rhetoric comes into play on both sides of the aisle, its just that the Dems are admittedly slicker when it comes to doing it.

Just because something is true doesn't mean it's objective journalism.

Would it be fair, balanced, etc, if I were to preface everything I ever say about Bush with "Former Coke Head," "Former Drunk," etc?

The Washington Post headline is obviously due to recent behavior by the REpublican house, especially the "You Lie" incident. Saying they remained silent doesn't imply they should be cheering at all, that's a weird conclusion to draw, as it could easily imply that they were supposed to be booing and jeering his speech.
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: Perpetual Change on September 27, 2011, 08:15:35 AM
So, Morgan Freeman says he thinks the tea-party is racist. And viola, a new bizarre Fox headline appears.

(https://i.imgur.com/xs31h.jpg)
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: Super Dude on September 27, 2011, 08:45:56 AM
Link?
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: Progmetty on September 27, 2011, 08:51:09 AM
Morgan Freeman is the same guy who once said he doesn't believe in Black History month cause there's no such thing as black history, only American history. This headline is about that guy..
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: El Barto on September 27, 2011, 12:17:46 PM
Damn,  I desperately want to make a political joke about this,  but I really don't know where to begin.

https://www.foxnews.com/health/2011/09/22/guide-to-giving-deep-tissue-orgasm/?intcmp=obnetwork
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: bosk1 on September 27, 2011, 01:34:26 PM
:facepalm:  I so hate being conservative at times when it just seems like 90% of the conservatives who open their mouths are insane morons. 

Will you guys please do me a favor and start using the "report" button more often?
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: El Barto on September 27, 2011, 01:42:10 PM
Did I miss something?
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: Super Dude on September 27, 2011, 01:45:48 PM
Did I miss something?
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: Orion1967 on September 27, 2011, 02:33:04 PM
Every once in awhile, someone asserts that the left's cable networks are just as bad. This argument literally gets blown to pieces every time. Fox has such a long, well-recorded history of being unfair and evil.

Opinions vary
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: William Wallace on September 27, 2011, 03:13:10 PM
Every once in awhile, someone asserts that the left's cable networks are just as bad. This argument literally gets blown to pieces every time. Fox has such a long, well-recorded history of being unfair and evil.
I doubt you can point to any objective evidence to support that, and studies churned out by left wing think tanks don't count. But even if it was true, it's like a legal defense that points the finger at the worse behavior of other criminals. The fact that Fox sucks more than MSNBC doesn't make the latter a reliable news source.
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: Super Dude on September 27, 2011, 04:56:58 PM
Every once in awhile, someone asserts that the left's cable networks are just as bad. This argument literally gets blown to pieces every time. Fox has such a long, well-recorded history of being unfair and evil.
I doubt you can point to any objective evidence to support that, and studies churned out by left wing think tanks don't count. But even if it was true, it's like a legal defense that points the finger at the worse behavior of other criminals. The fact that Fox sucks more than MSNBC doesn't make the latter a reliable news source.

Not much to contribute here, but isn't a fallback argument like that exactly the sort of thing that PC is talking about?  It's wrong because it's liberal.
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: El Barto on September 27, 2011, 04:58:39 PM
Every once in awhile, someone asserts that the left's cable networks are just as bad. This argument literally gets blown to pieces every time. Fox has such a long, well-recorded history of being unfair and evil.
I doubt you can point to any objective evidence to support that, and studies churned out by left wing think tanks don't count. But even if it was true, it's like a legal defense that points the finger at the worse behavior of other criminals. The fact that Fox sucks more than MSNBC doesn't make the latter a reliable news source.
Except that this isn't a thread about how great CNN and MSNBC are.  It's a thread about how crappy FOX is.  Others are making the point that "yeah, well,  everybody else does it!"
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: Perpetual Change on September 27, 2011, 06:53:33 PM
Did I miss something?

I thought it was me, but I'm already on the watchlist, so I guess I'm in the clear...  ;D
I doubt you can point to any objective evidence to support that, and studies churned out by left wing think tanks don't count. But even if it was true, it's like a legal defense that points the finger at the worse behavior of other criminals. The fact that Fox sucks more than MSNBC doesn't make the latter a reliable news source.

Considering nothing short of a right wing think tank saying it will make you happy, I'm not even gonna bother with this one...

Except that this isn't a thread about how great CNN and MSNBC are.  It's a thread about how crappy FOX is.  Others are making the point that "yeah, well,  everybody else does it!"

Even so, I've never noticed anyone else do it as consistently Fox.

Okay, so I will bite. This is the first thing that came up when I googled "media bias":


Quote
Rank
News Outlet
ADA
 
 
 
Score
 
1
Newshour with Jim Lehrer
55.8
 
2
CNN NewsNight with Aaron Brown
56.0
 
3
ABC Good Morning America
56.1
 
4
Drudge Report
60.4
 
5
Fox News' Special Report with Brit Hume
39.7
 
6
ABC World News Tonight
61.0
 
7
NBC Nightly News
61.6
 
8
USA Today
63.4
 
9
NBC Today Show
64.0
 
10
Washington Times
35.4
 
11
Time Magazine
65.4
 
12
U.S. News and World Report
65.8
 
13
NPR Morning Edition
66.3
 
14
Newsweek
66.3
 
15
CBS Early Show
66.6
 
16
Washington Post
66.6
 
17
LA Times
70.0
 
18
CBS Evening News
73.7
 
19
New York Times
73.7
 
20
Wall Street Journal
85.1
https://www.sscnet.ucla.edu/polisci/faculty/groseclose/Media.Bias.8.htm

So, according to research done here, Fox sucks, the Drudge report is about as bad as the other media outlets (which are, in turn, slightly better than Fox), NPR gets undue shit for being a liberal breeding den, and the New York Times and Journal are somewhat respectable news sources. Again, as I told someone who PM'd me about this, I have no doubt that MSNBC's pundits are as bad as Fox's. The editorial side of things, imo, is about the same. But Fox's bias seems to leak into its actual news coverage more often than the others.

Anyway, I realize all this research is like ten years old. Some things have no-doubt changed. I wonder how the Drudge report would rank up these days, since creating conspiracy theories to pin on Obama had become its main agenda apparently  :biggrin:

A friend here at University studies just that specific topic, so I'll ask her for something more up-to-date today or tomorrow. But, from all I looked at, most of the research done that supports "conventional" wisdom-- that Fox is bad, that the New York Times is relatively good, and than the other networks are bad but still better than Fox-- is actually the quantitative, serious stuff. I saw some other "research" about the liberal side of things being more biased, but that was usually the less quantitative type with titles like, "The Liberal Media Bias Exposed!".

I suspect, at the end of the day, Bill O'Reilly is right about the whole "center-right" country thing. We are still a center-right country. Because of that, a right of center bias seems to work for a lot of us, as it caters to our traditional upbringing. I remember growing up, when I decided to turn on Fox News for the first time... It was the first time I'd ever wanted to go out of my way to watch news for some reason, and boy did it feel like stepping into a pair of shoes that were just my size.

:facepalm:  I so hate being conservative at times when it just seems like 90% of the conservatives who open their mouths are insane morons. 

I don't get it either. Everyone keeps saying that I'm being biased for thinking Fox is the worst cable network. They're forgetting, or still don't know, that there's at least 2- maybe 3- people on the RNC stage right now who I think could do a better job running the country than Obama. I'm not conservative at all really, but I'm willing to hear both sides. With conservatives, it's like if you don't agree with every point you're just another blind liberal.
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: Super Dude on September 27, 2011, 07:18:50 PM
I don't.  Not that I think Obama is doing such a great job, but I sure as hell won't trust any of the rest of 'em.
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: Perpetual Change on September 27, 2011, 07:21:56 PM
I don't.  Not that I think Obama is doing such a great job, but I sure as hell won't trust any of the rest of 'em.

I would. Because, if Obama's taught me anything, it's that having a grad-school vocabulary doesn't make you any less of a suck-up to your advisors' agendas than Bush was.
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: Super Dude on September 27, 2011, 07:23:45 PM
But voting for one of the other current hopefuls pretty much guarantees it.  I will never vote for right of center, and it's not because I'll only vote for one party or anything like that but because I disagree with the conservative ideology itself (I think I worded that wrong but you get the idea).
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: Perpetual Change on September 27, 2011, 07:32:49 PM
I'm pretty sure it's already guaranteed.  :P

Although, who knows. Obama might be better once he doesn't have to worry about being re-elected.
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: El Barto on September 27, 2011, 07:46:01 PM
Two years ago Obama didn't have to worry about being reelected,  and he was just as big a douchebag then as he is now. 
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: antigoon on September 27, 2011, 07:48:24 PM
It's like, why are we again willing to vote for a man who sweet talked us a load of bullshit four years ago? At least most of those Republican hacks are actually going to do or try to do what they say :lol  And the way Barry's rhetoric is starting to shift to the left again makes it so damn obvious that he's back in campaign mode.


If you want to talk media bias just look at how the US hikers who were just released from Iran are being covered right now. Or the build up/beginning to the Iraq war.
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: Perpetual Change on September 27, 2011, 07:57:12 PM
Back on topic:

Quote
Man Suspected of Murdering Young Massachusetts Mom May Be In U.S. Illegally, Police Say

Read more: https://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/09/27/man-suspected-murdering-young-massachusetts-mom-may-be-in-us-illegally-police/?test=latestnews#ixzz1ZCyLgwP4

What do you guys think-- forget why this story is on the frontpage to begin with. Does that information really belong in the hed? Or are Fox just doing what they always doing and trying to politicize everything?

Oh, this article is fun: Obama's Feisty BET Interview Highlights Challenge He Faces in Rallying Black Voters

Quote
Obama's Feisty BET Interview Highlights Challenge He Faces in Rallying Black Voters

Read more: https://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/09/27/obamas-feisty-bet-interview-highlights-challenge-sidelining-black-vote/#ixzz1ZCzRV3t7

Some of the treasures here:

Quote
Obama defended his policies as helping minorities even though he refuses to support programs that only target them.

Gotta wonder why the journalist at Fox thought it was necessary to take that cheap shop. It's like he wanted Obama to support programs that only target minorities so Bill'O and Hannity could call him a racist later.

Quote
On Saturday, in a speech at the annual awards dinner of the Congressional Black Caucus, Obama told blacks to quit crying and complaining and “put on your marching shoes” to follow him into battle for jobs and opportunity.

Another classy choice of words here.

Compare this with the article about BET, which the Fox article is based on:

Quote
It’s been a tough few months for President Obama, who has been the target of criticisms from his most loyal base—African-American constituents and lawmakers—who have felt like he’s not done enough to ease or even acknowledge their economic pain. But in an exclusive interview with BET News that aired Monday night, Obama finally said he understands what they’ve been experiencing and answered his critics. When asked why he has not tried to implement policy solutions that specifically target African-Americans, however, he said that’s not how America works.

https://www.bet.com/news/politics/2011/09/26/obama-discusses-jobs-and-the-economy-in-an-exclusive-sit-down-with-bet

Hardly seems very "feisty" at all, does it?

Again, Fox seems to just like drumming stuff up in their hard news so they can give their pundits something to work with. Do the other cable networks have bad pundits? Sure. But I rarely see it going this far, this shamelessly.
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: El Barto on September 27, 2011, 08:04:52 PM
Back on topic:

Quote
Man Suspected of Murdering Young Massachusetts Mom May Be In U.S. Illegally, Police Say

Read more: https://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/09/27/man-suspected-murdering-young-massachusetts-mom-may-be-in-us-illegally-police/?test=latestnews#ixzz1ZCyLgwP4

What do you guys think-- forget why this story is on the frontpage to begin with. Does that information really belong in the hed? Or are Fox just doing what they always doing and trying to politicize everything?
It's not the headline that troubles me, it's that the story is the status of the alleged killer and not the murder itself.  Apparently murders are only newsworthy if the suspect is here illegally.

Now, that said,  it's a much a facet of tabloid journalism as it is right-wing fear mongering.  All media outlets love harping on subjects that scare people.  Illegal aliens murdering white mothers certainly qualifies.
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: Super Dude on September 27, 2011, 08:43:49 PM
It's like, why are we again willing to vote for a man who sweet talked us a load of bullshit four years ago? At least most of those Republican hacks are actually going to do or try to do what they say :lol  And the way Barry's rhetoric is starting to shift to the left again makes it so damn obvious that he's back in campaign mode.


If you want to talk media bias just look at how the US hikers who were just released from Iran are being covered right now. Or the build up/beginning to the Iraq war.

I would love to see you or anyone else here (hell, even me) sit through their first presidential briefing and realistically come up with a way of fulfilling any one of their campaign promises.  And if you think any one of those Republican hacks will be any different, you don't understand the paradox of presidential power.
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: bosk1 on September 27, 2011, 08:56:13 PM
I disagree with the conservative ideology itself

What a strange way to live one's life.  Anyway...


Gotta wonder why the journalist at Fox thought it was necessary to take that cheap shop.

Hmm...  I feel like the answer is in here somewhere.  Let's take a closer look...

why the journalist at Fox

Closer...

the journalist at

Closer...


Closer...

journalist

Aha!

Whenever I feel like I belong to a profession that has a slimey, immoral reputation, I remind myself that there are politicians and journalists in the world, and suddenly, I feel better.
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: Super Dude on September 27, 2011, 09:04:09 PM
Quote from: bosk1
Long-ass post

Why is that a strange way to live one's life?  I just disagree with the underlying philosophy, and consequently would prefer not to live in a country using it as basis and primary motivator for its governmental policies.  It's the same as preferring to live in a republic over an all-out democracy, or a consociational federation over a federated nation-state.
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: antigoon on September 27, 2011, 09:12:48 PM
It's like, why are we again willing to vote for a man who sweet talked us a load of bullshit four years ago? At least most of those Republican hacks are actually going to do or try to do what they say :lol  And the way Barry's rhetoric is starting to shift to the left again makes it so damn obvious that he's back in campaign mode.


If you want to talk media bias just look at how the US hikers who were just released from Iran are being covered right now. Or the build up/beginning to the Iraq war.

I would love to see you or anyone else here (hell, even me) sit through their first presidential briefing and realistically come up with a way of fulfilling any one of their campaign promises.  And if you think any one of those Republican hacks will be any different, you don't understand the paradox of presidential power.
I'm not the one who made the promises. I never said I could do it.

I don't understand your point about the Republicans. By that logic you'd be fine with a Republican president.
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: Super Dude on September 27, 2011, 09:19:36 PM
I mean to be honest, I chalk Obama's renewal of the PATRIOT Act up to that very paradox.  After all, it's one of the few things he can get passed with not much more than a murmur from Congress.  My fear is that with a Republican presidency, such a bill getting through would be the least of our worries.  After all, Bush was able to get all sorts of tax cuts through no problem, he started two wars, he fucked with the international situations in no less than three countries (India, NK, and Taiwan, to be precise), and he kinda started this whole PATRIOT Act business.

I guess to sum up, imo under Democratic auspices we will have a couple of bad policies such as renewal of the PATRIOT Act, but we don't have to worry about the reversal of the DADT repeal, all our environmental protection policies going straight to hell, and the economic situation would be much, much worse.  I believe under a Republican presidency, truly bad policies will be the norm in a way we don't see under Obama, all for the sake of smaller government (which itself I don't agree with).
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: antigoon on September 27, 2011, 09:26:26 PM
You may be right, I just wish there could have been more action taken to reverse that stuff. By doing nothing, it's like the Obama administration turned what was then right-wing crazy into bipartisan consensus.

I think in the end, the most compelling reason I've heard to vote Obama in '12 is the Supreme Court nominees. But even then...I'd feel dirty doing it.
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: Super Dude on September 27, 2011, 09:33:12 PM
I mean I'm not saying the Obama administration has been all that great.  I just trust that a Republican administration would be far worse, especially considering how much politics in recent years have in fact skewed to the right.  The country we'd be living in by 2016 would be so far from the political ideology I envision for this country that I'm not sure I'd want to live here anymore.

I've said it before, I'll say it again: we need a new New Left.
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: bosk1 on September 27, 2011, 09:37:52 PM
Supreme Court nominees

The power to appoint judges is perhaps the single biggest reason a left-leaning president should never, EVER be allowed to occupy the white house under any circumstances. 
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: antigoon on September 27, 2011, 09:40:10 PM
If I agree with you will you tell me the secrets of succeeding on law school exams? :lol
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: bosk1 on September 27, 2011, 09:43:45 PM
Yes.
1.  Make your own outlines.  Then check them against commercial outlines.  Don't believe any professor who says you should never use a commercial outline.
2.  Don't memorize your outline.  Learn your outline.
3.  In answering essay questions, lay out the rule and set it off in bold, underline, whatever.  Apply the facts to the rule and argue to a conclusion.  Then address why another conclusion is either equally valid or not valid. 

Okay, your turn.
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: antigoon on September 27, 2011, 09:52:08 PM
Thanks! It appears I'm on the right track. Everyone's still trying to deny the usefulness of commercial outlines, but they exist for a reason. Of course, using them seems like a death wish, but that doesn't mean they're useless. I'm going to start outlining tomorrow :blob:

edit: i meant using them exclusively  :facepalm:

Supreme Court nominees

The power to appoint judges is perhaps the single biggest reason a left-leaning president should never, EVER be allowed to occupy the white house under any circumstances. 

(https://4.bp.blogspot.com/_ag8cy9r2XdE/TVAIpkz_MkI/AAAAAAAAKrI/GwN3640u8sM/s1600/agree.jpg)
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: bosk1 on September 27, 2011, 10:03:43 PM
People who have trouble on law school exams often don't know how to do #3 above.  Most people figure out #1 and #2 to a reasonable degree.  I'm sure you've been through it already.  But a simplified illustration would be:

Facts:  Julie, a resident of California, sued Mike, a resident of New York in the federal district court, for fraud.  Julie as asking for $50,000 in compensatory damages and $500,000 in punitive damages.  Mike moves to dismiss on the grounds that subject matter jurisdiction is improper.

A proper answer would be something like:  The first issue is whether diversity jurisdiction is proper.  [spot the issue]  Diversity jurisdiction is proper where the parties reside in different states and the amount in controversy exceeds $75,000.  [state the rule]  Here, Julie is a resident of California and Mike is a resident of New York.  Consequently, the "different states" requirement is met.  Additionally, because Julie is asking for $50,000 in compensatory damages and $500,000 in punitive damages, the aggregate amount in controversy of $550,000 exceeds the $75,000 amount in controversy requirement.  [applying facts to law]  Therefore, the amount in controversy requirement is also met.  Because both the "different states" and "amount in controversy" requirements are met, diversity jurisdiction is proper.  [conclusion]

If there are additional facts, you can argue other positions, such as:  "Joe will likely argue that, because he purchased a house in California where he spends 50% of his time, the "different states" requirement is not met.  However..."
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: Perpetual Change on September 27, 2011, 10:42:22 PM
Aha!

Whenever I feel like I belong to a profession that has a slimey, immoral reputation, I remind myself that there are politicians and journalists in the world, and suddenly, I feel better.

Haha!

You know, I was about to rage at you and then I remember: you're right! The way we mythologize the press in this country is almost as bad as the way we mythologize the founders. The press in the US was, in a lot of ways, founded on slinging undue propaganda against the British, and in the 19th century corporate sponsors had a way-too-easy time getting their "objective" papers to demonize union members.

But during the 70s, a couple newspapers realized that an objective press is actually really valuable to our system. These people started trying to hold themselves up to those lofty, mythological standards. Plausible or not, I think we're better off for it, and journalism as a profession doesn't deserve a bad rap because there's Fox, just like you as a lawyer don't deserve a bad rap because someone got away with suing McDonald's up the wazoo for serving hot Coffee.

I mean, look at the two articles about the debate in the black community over Barack Obama. The Fox News article, under the "fair and balanced" tag-line, is manipulative, condescending, and just paints an all-around false picture of the debate which pits the entire black community against Obama. BET, an entertainment magazine largely geared towards blacks, explains the circumstances in a much more objective and accurate way. Do people not see the elephant in the room there?

Supreme Court nominees

The power to appoint judges is perhaps the single biggest reason a left-leaning president should never, EVER be allowed to occupy the white house under any circumstances. 

Well, I've gotta say, I find this just as off-the-wall as Super Dude's "against conservatism on principle" remark.

 :corn

Since your position likely comes down to the entire the the Constitution is a flawless document handed down to us by the Founders, I won't bother prying further. I think there's an abundance of evidence out there as to why it's not even close, but that's a whole new can of worms.
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: bosk1 on September 27, 2011, 10:46:32 PM
2 things on journalism:  (1) I'm not saying the profession is corrupt and dishonest because of Fox.  I'm saying it is generally corrupt and dishonest as a whole because of every major news outlet and because of a general dishonesty in the profession, at least when it comes to certain types of news.  (2) Just because the profession itself is a mess doesn't mean that all journalists out there are.  There are a number of upstanding individuals in the profession.

Supreme Court nominees

The power to appoint judges is perhaps the single biggest reason a left-leaning president should never, EVER be allowed to occupy the white house under any circumstances. 

Well, I've gotta say, I find this just as off-the-wall as Super Dude's "against conservatism on principle" remark.

 :corn

Yes, but the difference is, I'm right and he's wrong.
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: Perpetual Change on September 27, 2011, 10:52:23 PM
Gotcha on the journalism thing.

As far as the nominees go, though, don't you think it's more of a problem that the Supreme Court has so much power to shoot down legislation to begin with? I decided Law School wasn't for me pretty early on, but I did take a Constitutional Law course and came out of it thinking "Judicial Review" itself was on pretty shakey ground in terms of being Constitutionally justified (that's playing along with this whole idea that the Constitution is scripture, which I don't subscribe).
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: bosk1 on September 27, 2011, 10:55:09 PM
As far as the nominees go, though, don't you think it's more of a problem that the Supreme Court has so much power to shoot down legislation to begin with?

Yes, but not just the Supreme Court.  The lower courts as well, to a lesser extent.  That's why I think the power to appoint is a problem for presidents who are insane left of center.
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: Perpetual Change on September 27, 2011, 11:13:00 PM
Maybe. I'd say the role of the president has been exaggerated to such a great degree that there's a plethora of powers that are abused by presidents on both sides. Seems like it being a left vs. right president thing is pretty much inconsequential. Whether the current president is bending the rules in a way that suits where'd you'd like to see the nation go or not doesn't matter. The fact that he can do it is a symptom of a illness that started longer ago.
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: El Barto on September 27, 2011, 11:20:46 PM
As far as the nominees go, though, don't you think it's more of a problem that the Supreme Court has so much power to shoot down legislation to begin with? I decided Law School wasn't for me pretty early on, but I did take a Constitutional Law course and came out of it thinking "Judicial Review" itself was on pretty shakey ground in terms of being Constitutionally justified (that's playing along with this whole idea that the Constitution is scripture, which I don't subscribe).
Personally,  I'm a big fan of judicial review.  Never really understood the contempt for it. 
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: Super Dude on September 28, 2011, 05:54:38 AM
I mean I think it's unfair to say all journalism is dishonest, corrupt, and the like, but on the whole I agree.  Let's just say when faced with either option, I say yes.

And what's wrong with rejecting a political faction on the basis of disagreeing with its philosophy?  I disagree with the general way in which this faction's philosophy interprets and understands the world at large and governance in particular, therefore I will not support people or policies based around it.  I don't see what's so bizarre about that.
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: Perpetual Change on September 28, 2011, 06:23:36 AM
I mean I think it's unfair to say all journalism is dishonest, corrupt, and the like, but on the whole I agree.  Let's just say when faced with either option, I say yes.

And what's wrong with rejecting a political faction on the basis of disagreeing with its philosophy?  I disagree with the general way in which this faction's philosophy interprets and understands the world at large and governance in particular, therefore I will not support people or policies based around it.  I don't see what's so bizarre about that.

You said you disagree with conservatism on principle, not Republicans. If you would have said the latter, it would have made a little bit more sense.
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: Super Dude on September 28, 2011, 06:53:07 AM
And Republicans subscribe to a conservative philosophy.  I disagree with the conservative philosophy in its principle, and with Republicans in their application of that principle.
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: Orion1967 on September 28, 2011, 09:22:11 AM
Yes.
1.  Make your own outlines.  Then check them against commercial outlines.  Don't believe any professor who says you should never use a commercial outline.
2.  Don't memorize your outline.  Learn your outline.
3.  In answering essay questions, lay out the rule and set it off in bold, underline, whatever.  Apply the facts to the rule and argue to a conclusion.  Then address why another conclusion is either equally valid or not valid. 

Okay, your turn.
<offtopic>
I wish I had asked you how to do well on the LSATs...  I was considering a major life change and going to Law school and completely fucked my LSATs...  Have since come to my senses and am pursing my masters in information security (same field I work in) but damn those LSATs were the hardest test I have ever taken.
<ontopic>
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: Genowyn on September 28, 2011, 11:46:08 AM
I fail to see what's so confusing about someone disagreeing with conservatism on principle...how else would one disagree with an ideology, exactly...?
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: ehra on September 28, 2011, 12:18:38 PM
Because "conservatism" is such a ridiculously broad term that I don't get how someone could possibly be against it "on principle."
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: Genowyn on September 28, 2011, 12:20:46 PM
If you're opposed to the reduction of government, to moral legislation, to tax breaks for corporations, etc? If you are in opposition to every facet of conservatism, then you can be opposed to it on principle.
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: ehra on September 28, 2011, 12:26:52 PM
If you are in opposition to every facet of conservatism

Because "conservatism" is such a ridiculously broad term that I don't get how someone could possibly be against it "on principle."

Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: Genowyn on September 28, 2011, 01:14:13 PM
The same could be said of any political ideology, yet nearly everyone seems to be fine with people automatically opposing the left...
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: Super Dude on September 28, 2011, 01:25:53 PM
Everything Genowyn has said so far. I realize it's a broad term, so does perhaps limiting it to mean conservatism as it has manifested itself in the US in the last few decades make sense?
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: ehra on September 28, 2011, 03:14:06 PM
The same could be said of any political ideology, yet nearly everyone seems to be fine with people automatically opposing the left...

When did I say I was ok with anyone doing that? And who the hell is "everyone"?

This is why I hate when people use thoe terms at all. They stop attacking the issues or arguments they disagree with and they just turn it into pithy arguments against a vague, ill defined "them." And then you point out what they're doing and they use that crappy "well THEY do it too!" argument that we just got done making fun of when people use it to defend Fox.
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: Genowyn on September 28, 2011, 06:07:23 PM
The same could be said of any political ideology, yet nearly everyone seems to be fine with people automatically opposing the left...

When did I say I was ok with anyone doing that? And who the hell is "everyone"?

This is why I hate when people use thoe terms at all. They stop attacking the issues or arguments they disagree with and they just turn it into pithy arguments against a vague, ill defined "them." And then you point out what they're doing and they use that crappy "well THEY do it too!" argument that we just got done making fun of when people use it to defend Fox.

Most of P/R  :lol
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: ehra on September 28, 2011, 06:50:52 PM
You seem to be reading a different forum from me then, because things tend to be pretty even sided.
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: Perpetual Change on September 28, 2011, 07:24:03 PM
@Genowyn and Super Dude

I'm not sure what "conservative" means to bosk, so I won't speak for him, but for me the word has implications that go beyond what right-wingers in America are railing about. Conservative, to me, goes all the way back to Confucius. Ultimately, it means putting familial good before the good of society; approaching traditions with reverence and respect rather than bane; being prudent and cautious rather than taking huge risks. And so on. So, with that in mind, it does seem weird to me that someone would reject that kind of thinking on principle, rather than just specific applications of it. But whatever floats your boat.
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: Super Dude on September 28, 2011, 08:31:28 PM
Oh, see I limit my definition to American conservatism.  Although on principle I also tend to not subscribe to ideologies/philosophies that are a couple centuries old or more because I believe they no longer have relevance after a while, and considering Confucius' are on the order of millennia, those are right out.
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: Perpetual Change on September 28, 2011, 10:13:13 PM
Oh, see I limit my definition to American conservatism.  Although on principle I also tend to not subscribe to ideologies/philosophies that are a couple centuries old or more because I believe they no longer have relevance after a while, and considering Confucius' are on the order of millennia, those are right out.

I'm just pointing out that the conservative tradition doesn't begin with America. It's a retrospective way of looking at things that has meaning and merit outside the US political spectrum.

But I don't see why how old something is should be important. I expect two-thousand years from now Confucius' core ideas will still be around while no-one will really remember much about the platform of the Democratic Party of the United States which you seem to think is more or less infallible.
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: Super Dude on September 29, 2011, 05:50:50 AM
I don't think it is; I just happen to think the platform and underlying philosophy is more relevant to the world we live in today. Things Plato says about the allegory of the cave and about the just republic are interesting, endurable and relatable too, but I'm not going to try to govern 21st-century America with it. Do you understand what I'm trying to say?
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: Perpetual Change on September 29, 2011, 09:38:32 AM
I don't think it is; I just happen to think the platform and underlying philosophy is more relevant to the world we live in today.

I'd be curious to hear what that actually is.

Do you understand what I'm trying to say?

Not really. Honestly, it sounds like you're just trying to discount every Republican by saing the conservative way of thinking itself is inherently flawed or useless, because it's old or something. That's a jarringly black-and-white way of looking at politics, and the reason we're having the problem with government we're having now, because instead of actually working to find the common philosophical framework to meet relevant issues head-on, the intelligentsia of both parties just smugly assert the total corruption of the other from on high. It's a process that completely lacks any real philosophy at all, and instead is an endless round of semantic bickering and dishonest appeals to whatever is trendy at the moment.

But I guess I'll wait for you to answer the first question.
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: Orion1967 on September 29, 2011, 11:28:21 AM
Just to define the term for those that are tossing it around....

Definition of Concervatism:

1 capitalized a: the principles and policies of a Conservative party b: the Conservative party


2 a: disposition in politics to preserve what is established
    b: a political philosophy based on tradition and social stability, stressing established institutions, and preferring gradual development to abrupt change; specifically: such a philosophy calling for lower taxes, limited government regulation of business and investing, a strong national defense, and individual financial responsibility for personal needs (as retirement income or health-care coverage)


3: the tendency to prefer an existing or traditional situation to change

Source: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/conservatism (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/conservatism)
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: bosk1 on September 29, 2011, 11:38:54 AM
I don't think it's the textbook definition that is at issue.  I think it is more how the definition is applied in the context of 2011 U.S. politics, and what it means in that context.
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: El Barto on September 29, 2011, 11:40:32 AM
And it seems to me that "every man for himself" pretty much sums it right up.
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: Orion1967 on September 29, 2011, 11:42:33 AM
I don't think it's the textbook definition that is at issue.  I think it is more how the definition is applied in the context of 2011 U.S. politics, and what it means in that context.
Oh I don't know I think the textbook definition is pretty much spot on...  "...lower taxes, limited government regulation of business and investing, strong national defense, individual finanvial responsibility..."   I would say pretty much the pillars of conservative beliefs no?
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: Orion1967 on September 29, 2011, 11:46:13 AM
And it seems to me that "every man for himself" pretty much sums it right up.
I wouldn't say to the extreme, no.  I would say more of smaller government, less open-ended freebie programs, governmental fiscal responsibility (balanced budget would be cool) and a strong national defense with the emphasis of enabling every man to provide for himself.
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: antigoon on September 29, 2011, 11:48:46 AM
You may be right, I just wish there could have been more action taken to reverse that stuff. By doing nothing, it's like the Obama administration turned what was then right-wing crazy into bipartisan consensus.

This article from the LA Times explains my point better than I can. It's not perfect, but check the bold.

Obama: A Disaster for Civil Liberties
Quote from: Jonathan Turley
Civil libertarians have long had a dysfunctional relationship with the Democratic Party, which treats them as a captive voting bloc with nowhere else to turn in elections. Not even this history, however, prepared civil libertarians for Obama. After the George W. Bush years, they were ready to fight to regain ground lost after Sept. 11. Historically, this country has tended to correct periods of heightened police powers with a pendulum swing back toward greater individual rights. Many were questioning the extreme measures taken by the Bush administration, especially after the disclosure of abuses and illegalities. Candidate Obama capitalized on this swing and portrayed himself as the champion of civil liberties.

[...]

Obama failed to close Guantanamo Bay as promised. He continued warrantless surveillance and military tribunals that denied defendants basic rights. He asserted the right to kill U.S. citizens he views as terrorists. His administration has fought to block dozens of public-interest lawsuits challenging privacy violations and presidential abuses.

But perhaps the biggest blow to civil liberties is what he has done to the movement itself. It has quieted to a whisper, muted by the power of Obama's personality and his symbolic importance as the first black president as well as the liberal who replaced Bush. Indeed, only a few days after he took office, the Nobel committee awarded him the Nobel Peace Prize without his having a single accomplishment to his credit beyond being elected. Many Democrats were, and remain, enraptured.

It's almost a classic case of the Stockholm syndrome, in which a hostage bonds with his captor despite the obvious threat to his existence. Even though many Democrats admit in private that they are shocked by Obama's position on civil liberties, they are incapable of opposing him. Some insist that they are simply motivated by realism: A Republican would be worse. However, realism alone cannot explain the utter absence of a push for an alternative Democratic candidate or organized opposition to Obama's policies on civil liberties in Congress during his term. It looks more like a cult of personality. Obama's policies have become secondary to his persona.

https://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-turley-civil-liberties-20110929,0,7542436.story
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: El Barto on September 29, 2011, 12:03:29 PM
Obviously I agree with all of that, although I don't think it does justice to how badly Obama's hosed us all,  but I have to disagree with his final conclusion.  Simply put, there is no alternative because of the nature of this terrible system we've built around us.  I'd love nothing more for an actual civil libertarian to come along, but it's not a possibility.  Opposing Obama,  which I think would be a damn find thing in principle,  would simply result in President Perry, and that'd be a much worse option; Obama at least feigns an interest in constitutionality.  The Republicans are too interested in nominating a whack-job, thinking this their opportunity,  so there won't be a decent option from them, either. 
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: antigoon on September 29, 2011, 12:10:04 PM
I agree that there are no simple solutions here, but what good is a feigned interest?
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: bosk1 on September 29, 2011, 12:29:44 PM
Simply put, there is no alternative because of the nature of this terrible system we've built around us.   

As much as we disagree over what a "better option" would consist of, I agree with this general point absolutely, and it's quite depressing.  As purely evil as the Democratic party is, the Republican party simply doesn't have anyone in the running who I would consider a good option for Chief Exec.  But the problem is deeper than that.  The Exec. aside, the other two major branches of the government are themselves so deeply mired in a corrupt 2-party system that it almost doesn't really matter to a high degree who is in the White House.
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: AcidLameLTE on September 29, 2011, 12:56:33 PM
The fact that you think the Democratic party are "evil" is kind of weird.
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: El Barto on September 29, 2011, 01:05:06 PM
I agree that there are no simple solutions here, but what good is a feigned interest?
As opposed to callous disregard?  I'd rather have someone who at least feels compelled to pay lip service than one who's just plainly doesn't give a shit.

Simply put, there is no alternative because of the nature of this terrible system we've built around us.   

As much as we disagree over what a "better option" would consist of, I agree with this general point absolutely, and it's quite depressing.  As purely evil as the Democratic party is, the Republican party simply doesn't have anyone in the running who I would consider a good option for Chief Exec.  But the problem is deeper than that.  The Exec. aside, the other two major branches of the government are themselves so deeply mired in a corrupt 2-party system that it almost doesn't really matter to a high degree who is in the White House.
Yeah, I share your depression.  There's really just no way for things to get better, I think. And pretty much the only difference between any potential candidates is, of course, their effect on the third branch, and that's obviously where we'll disagree the strongest.  We'll both despise the system and the candidates, but quietly root for the asshole who'll appoint our types of judges.
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: bosk1 on September 29, 2011, 01:07:50 PM
:lol  Good summary.

The fact that you think the Democratic party are "evil" is kind of weird.

How so?

:democrat:
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: AcidLameLTE on September 29, 2011, 01:19:50 PM
Because there's nothing evil about either of the two main parties in America. Calling either one of them "evil" seems a bit extreme.

As far as I'm aware, you guys don't even have all the extreme right-wing parties that Europe seem to be popping up all over Europe right now.
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: antigoon on September 29, 2011, 01:28:47 PM
They're both garbage.
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: AcidLameLTE on September 29, 2011, 01:33:09 PM
I agree. Doesn't mean they're evil though.
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: Super Dude on September 29, 2011, 05:04:53 PM
I don't think it is; I just happen to think the platform and underlying philosophy is more relevant to the world we live in today.

I'd be curious to hear what that actually is.

Do you understand what I'm trying to say?

Not really. Honestly, it sounds like you're just trying to discount every Republican by saing the conservative way of thinking itself is inherently flawed or useless, because it's old or something. That's a jarringly black-and-white way of looking at politics, and the reason we're having the problem with government we're having now, because instead of actually working to find the common philosophical framework to meet relevant issues head-on, the intelligentsia of both parties just smugly assert the total corruption of the other from on high. It's a process that completely lacks any real philosophy at all, and instead is an endless round of semantic bickering and dishonest appeals to whatever is trendy at the moment.

But I guess I'll wait for you to answer the first question.

In the briefest and most concise form, Orion and Barto pretty much got it, but I'd add to it a great deal of faith placed in the market which I don't think is a bad thing necessarily but I think they give the market far more credit than it's due.  There also seems to be this sense in American conservatism of "Let X take care of Y issue," ranging from let the market worry about environmental issues to let the municipality worry about racial divides.  Leaving alone moral views on race and other things in both ideological poles, I guess I just get this big impression that conservatives here, rather than being activist, really stick to this "Let ______ take care of it."  They don't believe it seems that government can do anything, or that massive initiative is necessary in solving X issue, whereas I feel that liberals and the government intervention thing are born out of a feeling that change is key and change needs to be made to happen, and you can't let market forces or social forces take care of it.  And hey, I could be totally wrong here, but that's the impression I get.  Tea Partiers sure ain't no New Left or hippies.
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: Perpetual Change on September 29, 2011, 06:31:41 PM
As purely evil as the Democratic party is, the Republican party simply doesn't have anyone in the running who I would consider a good option for Chief Exec.

Oh my lord. I so need a break from PR.  :P

Super Dude, I get what your saying. All I'm saying is you don't need to look at everything black and white, and reject everything the other party says just because they're the "evil" guys who can't possibly have any good ideas. Basically, what I'm saying is, don't be like Bosk.  :biggrin:
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: bosk1 on September 29, 2011, 06:56:06 PM
 :biggrin:
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: Genowyn on September 29, 2011, 07:01:40 PM
But the right in America are not really composed of real Conservatives. Neocons take all the worst crap from both liberalism and conservatism and have created some sort of hybrid monster of the worst political ideas anyone has ever had.
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: Super Dude on September 29, 2011, 07:05:38 PM
But the right in America are not really composed of real Conservatives. Neocons take all the worst crap from both liberalism and conservatism and have created some sort of hybrid monster of the worst political ideas anyone has ever had.

That's pretty much my sense.  Although again, I would like to emphasize that it's not so black and white from where I'm standing; I don't reject those values because they're conservative, I reject conservatism because those are the values it stands for.  A rose by any other name, right?

Also specific to my rejection of the Republican party, from an NYT op-ed:

Quote
It sometimes seems as if they are the only ones who talk about their values, but they put forward an elitist and narrow vision that largely favors the upwardly mobile, the healthy, the native-born American and the needs of the corporation.

This cold message is disguised, of course, cloaked in warm-sounding talk of solid American traditions and values.

That's my biggest problem with the party itself.
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: hefdaddy42 on October 02, 2011, 07:02:31 AM
I agree wholeheartedly with El Barto that the best way to summarize what passes for Conservatism in America today (whether it be mainstream Republicans, neocons, Tea Baggers, or self-styled "Libertarians") is "Every man for himself."  That is why I, in large part, agree with Super Dude, because that philosophy is diametrically opposed to my personal sense of what is best for America and the world in general.

And lol at bosky for calling Democrats evil.  If either of the two parties could be considered evil, surely it is the Republicans.  And this comes from someone who is a registered voter Unaffiliated with either party.  The Democrats have their share of problems, but evil isn't one of them.
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: William Wallace on October 02, 2011, 09:10:55 AM
I agree wholeheartedly with El Barto that the best way to summarize what passes for Conservatism in America today (whether it be mainstream Republicans, neocons, Tea Baggers, or self-styled "Libertarians") is "Every man for himself."  That is why I, in large part, agree with Super Dude, because that philosophy is diametrically opposed to my personal sense of what is best for America and the world in general.

And lol at bosky for calling Democrats evil.  If either of the two parties could be considered evil, surely it is the Republicans.  And this comes from someone who is a registered voter Unaffiliated with either party.  The Democrats have their share of problems, but evil isn't one of them.
I don't know what to make of that comment. If you think that any conservative point of view is accurately summarized by "every man for himself," then you're confused. 
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: Perpetual Change on October 02, 2011, 09:15:17 AM
Saying conservatism means "every man for himself" is like saying progressive r  or liberal thinking means "every man for the state."

 :corn
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: Super Dude on October 02, 2011, 09:44:58 AM
To once again make a distinction, I don't think he's referring to all conservatism throughout time and space, but American conservatism in the last decade or so.
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: Genowyn on October 02, 2011, 10:05:49 AM
Saying conservatism means "every man for himself" is like saying progressive r  or liberal thinking means "every man for the state."

Which is exactly how the right caricaturizes (is that a word?) the left.
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: antigoon on October 02, 2011, 03:33:36 PM
I think both political parties are pretty evil. *shrug*

edit: I mean, of course, the politicians who compose them.
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: livehard on October 03, 2011, 10:04:04 AM
New headline "Those who don't follow the scientific process embarass humanity"
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: hefdaddy42 on October 03, 2011, 10:45:58 AM
I agree wholeheartedly with El Barto that the best way to summarize what passes for Conservatism in America today (whether it be mainstream Republicans, neocons, Tea Baggers, or self-styled "Libertarians") is "Every man for himself."  That is why I, in large part, agree with Super Dude, because that philosophy is diametrically opposed to my personal sense of what is best for America and the world in general.

And lol at bosky for calling Democrats evil.  If either of the two parties could be considered evil, surely it is the Republicans.  And this comes from someone who is a registered voter Unaffiliated with either party.  The Democrats have their share of problems, but evil isn't one of them.
I don't know what to make of that comment. If you think that any conservative point of view is accurately summarized by "every man for himself," then you're confused.
I'm not confused, although most of the prominent Republicans/Tea Baggers seem to be.
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: jsem on October 03, 2011, 12:37:23 PM
The notion that libertarians and or conservatives aren't compassionate is false.
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: hefdaddy42 on October 03, 2011, 12:57:28 PM
The notion that libertarians and or conservatives aren't compassionate is false.
Then they need better PR people.
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: antigoon on October 03, 2011, 01:21:41 PM
Wasn't that Bush the Second's platform? The Compassionate Conservative?
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: livehard on October 03, 2011, 01:33:43 PM
The notion that libertarians and or conservatives aren't compassionate is false.
Then they need better PR people.

I think the thing is that its not a super easy thing to see how the common man will benifit from hands off government.  Its a much quicker and easier thing to let the mind agree with the thinking "oh govt welfare = helping the poor".  It takes some thinking and studying about how incentives effect people, and how economics work to realize how things work quite the opposite.

Its the same as minimum wage, its easy to say "oh it helps those making little money" but its not easy to see how it has caused such a high unemployment rate in the teenage, minority, and low skilled worker communities...
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: jsem on October 03, 2011, 04:06:59 PM
I'm telling you, if it were all up to charity and no welfare state - my belief is actually that the conservatives would be the one helping out the most. Christian values, you know? Serving others. At least it should be that way, but you never know with the so called family values people.
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: Super Dude on October 03, 2011, 04:51:40 PM
The notion that libertarians and or conservatives aren't compassionate is false.
Then they need better PR people.

I think the thing is that its not a super easy thing to see how the common man will benifit from hands off government.  Its a much quicker and easier thing to let the mind agree with the thinking "oh govt welfare = helping the poor".  It takes some thinking and studying about how incentives effect people, and how economics work to realize how things work quite the opposite.

Its the same as minimum wage, its easy to say "oh it helps those making little money" but its not easy to see how it has caused such a high unemployment rate in the teenage, minority, and low skilled worker communities...

I studied economics.  Your argument is false.
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: livehard on October 03, 2011, 04:58:25 PM
The notion that libertarians and or conservatives aren't compassionate is false.
Then they need better PR people.

I think the thing is that its not a super easy thing to see how the common man will benifit from hands off government.  Its a much quicker and easier thing to let the mind agree with the thinking "oh govt welfare = helping the poor".  It takes some thinking and studying about how incentives effect people, and how economics work to realize how things work quite the opposite.

Its the same as minimum wage, its easy to say "oh it helps those making little money" but its not easy to see how it has caused such a high unemployment rate in the teenage, minority, and low skilled worker communities...

I studied economics.  Your argument is false.

what a useless post... how so?
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: yeshaberto on October 03, 2011, 05:02:25 PM
watch it, livehard.  this is warning #2
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: 73109 on October 03, 2011, 05:02:57 PM
I think that's a record. :lol
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: jsem on October 03, 2011, 05:24:54 PM
I studied economics.  Your argument is false.
Doesn't say much. There are people who have studied economics who have come to a different conclusion.
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: pogoowner on October 03, 2011, 08:20:17 PM
I studied economics.  Your argument is false.
Doesn't say much. There are people who have studied economics who have come to a different conclusion.
Indeed. Minimum wage helps those people on the low end of the wage scale, IF they still have a job. It hurts those who consequently lose their job or are unable to acquire one.
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: Sigz on October 04, 2011, 06:37:19 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/Hq2qZ.jpg)
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: bosk1 on October 04, 2011, 06:40:11 PM
:|










































:rollin
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: El Barto on October 04, 2011, 09:49:37 PM
He could probably do better.
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: Progmetty on October 04, 2011, 11:58:12 PM
No, she's a masterpiece.
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: Orion1967 on October 06, 2011, 01:57:24 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/Hq2qZ.jpg)
Shit...   that's funny!  :rollin
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: hefdaddy42 on October 08, 2011, 04:16:22 AM
:clap:
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: Perpetual Change on December 13, 2011, 08:19:30 AM
OK, bumping this in case anyone forgot how awesome Fox's reporting is:

(https://cloudfront.mediamatters.org/static/images/item/fnc-an-20111212-markedchart.jpg)

Here's the chart that belongs to Fox's "source":

(https://cloudfront.mediamatters.org/static/images/item/bls-20111212-unemploymentrate-2011.jpg)

You know, Fox never fails to remind me that there's no need to hold anything you do to high standards.
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: bosk1 on December 13, 2011, 08:26:06 AM
???
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: Perpetual Change on December 13, 2011, 08:30:33 AM
Look at the graph again. According to Fox's perversion of the graph, current unemployment rate under Obama (8.6 percent) has been manipulated to look like it's higher than March's unemployment rate, even though Marches was actually higher by .2 percent.
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: jsem on December 13, 2011, 08:35:52 AM
Lolgraph
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: Perpetual Change on December 13, 2011, 08:36:38 AM
In other words (and I just did this in 5 seconds so it might not be perfect), if the people at Fox actually took any pride in their profession, the graph would look more like this:

(https://i1235.photobucket.com/albums/ff421/perpetualjoe/Internets/fnc-an-20111212-markedchart.jpg)
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: Sigz on December 13, 2011, 08:38:17 AM
 :lol
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: bosk1 on December 13, 2011, 09:00:19 AM
So...the line on the graph doesn't exactly match up with the number, and...that means something.  Okay...
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: GuineaPig on December 13, 2011, 09:03:05 AM
Compare where the 8.6% mark is compared to the 8.8% mark.
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: Ultimetalhead on December 13, 2011, 09:15:00 AM
So...the line on the graph doesn't exactly match up with the number, and...that means something.  Okay...
When you're a major news outlet? Yeah, I'd say it's fairly important.
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: XJDenton on December 13, 2011, 09:15:33 AM
Fox: We can't even use excel correctly.
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: Super Dude on December 13, 2011, 09:19:50 AM
So...the line on the graph doesn't exactly match up with the number, and...that means something.  Okay...
When you're a major news outlet? Yeah, I'd say it's fairly important.
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: 7StringedBeast on December 13, 2011, 09:21:45 AM
So...the line on the graph doesn't exactly match up with the number, and...that means something.  Okay...
When you're a major news outlet? Yeah, I'd say it's fairly important.

I mean no matter what that line looks like, the numbers are printed nice and big right above it.  So anyone who can read numbers will see the decline.  My guess was that this graph was thrown together by a graphics guy really quickly and the inaccuracy of the line is just oversight.  You'd be surprised at how fast these graphics get whipped together.
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: Ultimetalhead on December 13, 2011, 09:24:49 AM
This reflects horribly on Fox either way. Their graphics design people are either super lazy, or hate Obama enough to alter their graph so that the inattentive people who just want to hate on Obama with them (read: the entirety of their audience) will overlook the numbers and say, "OH HO HO THE GRAPH ISN'T GOING DOWN. FUCKIN OBAMA"

Take your pick.
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: Sigz on December 13, 2011, 09:28:30 AM
Considering the short time those graphs are usually put on screen, I'm inclined to say it's more important that the trend of the graph be accurate than the label for each point.

Of course, I don't think it's too much to ask for both.
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: 7StringedBeast on December 13, 2011, 09:30:42 AM
I mean either way you look at it, it doesn't really matter.  You shouldn't be watching Fox news anyways.
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: El Barto on December 13, 2011, 09:37:13 AM
Y'all are overlooking the fact that titling the graph "unemployment rate under Obama" is what's so unprofessional.  There's providing an overt implication to push an agenda rather than just presenting facts.  A more reasonable approach would have been to provide "unemployment rate over last 4 years".  People can then determine what factors might be contributing. 
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: 7StringedBeast on December 13, 2011, 09:38:39 AM
I mean it shouldn't be any surprise to anyone that Fox news is biased.
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: hefdaddy42 on December 13, 2011, 09:50:03 AM
You'd be surprised at how fast these graphics get whipped together.
No I wouldn't.
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: Implode on December 13, 2011, 12:02:21 PM
That obviously wasn't a mistake. They did that purposely to hide the fact that unemployment is supposedly the lowest it's been in the graph. They can't have Obama looking good ever.
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: kirksnosehair on December 13, 2011, 12:16:53 PM
So...the line on the graph doesn't exactly match up with the number, and...that means something.  Okay...

You think it doesn't?  Really?  Come on, man.  I know you're not liberal, but really?
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: Jamesman42 on December 13, 2011, 12:26:02 PM
8.6 rounds up to 9 ;-)))
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: 7StringedBeast on December 13, 2011, 12:28:09 PM
That obviously wasn't a mistake. They did that purposely to hide the fact that unemployment is supposedly the lowest it's been in the graph. They can't have Obama looking good ever.

I mean, I wouldn't say they are hiding anything.  The numbers are clearly printed for all to see.
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: kirksnosehair on December 13, 2011, 12:32:18 PM
That obviously wasn't a mistake. They did that purposely to hide the fact that unemployment is supposedly the lowest it's been in the graph. They can't have Obama looking good ever.

I mean, I wouldn't say they are hiding anything.  The numbers are clearly printed for all to see.

I think Fox News (sic) is hiring if you're interested.  :lol
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: Implode on December 13, 2011, 01:00:42 PM
That obviously wasn't a mistake. They did that purposely to hide the fact that unemployment is supposedly the lowest it's been in the graph. They can't have Obama looking good ever.

I mean, I wouldn't say they are hiding anything.  The numbers are clearly printed for all to see.

That's the genius of it. Most people won't at the numbers and say, "Wow! It's the lowest it's ever been!" Most will just glance at the graph and think that nothing has really been changing at all. It's a very biased graph created specifically to draw attention away from anything that might make Obama be seen in a good light.
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: 7StringedBeast on December 13, 2011, 01:02:23 PM
Well duh, Fox news.  No shit its biased.  But they aren't hiding anything really.  It's not their fault their viewers can't read numbers or that they choose to ignore the numbers.
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: XJDenton on December 13, 2011, 01:11:25 PM
So we should hold a news agency to the standards of it's dumbest viewer? Regardless of who watches, its still a disgraceful example of misrepresenting data.
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: Jamesman42 on December 13, 2011, 01:12:32 PM
So...the line on the graph doesn't exactly match up with the number, and...that means something.  Okay...

what
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: AcidLameLTE on December 13, 2011, 02:00:56 PM
So...the line on the graph doesn't exactly match up with the number, and...that means something.  Okay...
Yes
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: Scheavo on December 13, 2011, 02:01:28 PM
So...the line on the graph doesn't exactly match up with the number, and...that means something.  Okay...

When you have a very strong and very reoccurring theme of having such "errors" always fall inline with a certain ideology, I'd say it means something. It's like how whenever a Republican does something very "bad," they "accidentally" label him a Democrat in their news footage.

In Britain, they call Murdoch's crap tabloids, in America, we call it News.
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: kirksnosehair on December 13, 2011, 02:05:48 PM
Funny (https://gawker.com/5863255/jon-stewart-mocks-fox-news-for-overreacting-to-obamas-godless-thanksgiving-address)
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: kirksnosehair on December 13, 2011, 02:10:01 PM
So...the line on the graph doesn't exactly match up with the number, and...that means something.  Okay...

When you have a very strong and very reoccurring theme of having such "errors" always fall inline with a certain ideology, I'd say it means something. It's like how whenever a Republican does something very "bad," they "accidentally" label him a Democrat in their news footage.

In Britain, they call Murdoch's crap tabloids, in America, we call it News.

Come on, that never happens, except, when it does

(https://cdn.crooksandliars.com/files/uploads/2009/06/Sanford-D_f3174.JPG)

And does again

(https://fromtheleft.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/foxfoley.jpg?w=320&h=214)

Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: bosk1 on December 13, 2011, 02:17:12 PM
So...the line on the graph doesn't exactly match up with the number, and...that means something.  Okay...

You think it doesn't?  Really?  Come on, man.  I know you're not liberal, but really?

Not much, no.  I look at it this way:  If it was an accident, it's the kind of thing that happens all the time, on every major news outlet.  So, in that case, I don't see why the finger-pointing at Fox.  If it was done on purpose, it's the kind of thing that happens on the time, on every cable news outlet.  So, in that case, I don't see why the finger-pointing at Fox.  Either way, it doesn't really jump out at me as being a significant issue.  And I understand that it's easy to write off my opinion because I am a "conservative" defending a "conservative news network."  But, honestly, that's not it.  First off, I don't watch Fox news, and couldn't care less what they broadcast.  Second, it's just such a minor issue, and I would feel the same if it were MSNBC doing the same thing to a conservative president (if there was such a thing).  If people want to bash Fox News, I get it.  But there are such better arguments than something as insignificant as this.  It would be like someone making the argument that "The Nazis were bad [okay, I'm with you so far] because their grey uniforms were so drab looking [wait...you lost me there]."  I just don't see the big deal.
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: kirksnosehair on December 13, 2011, 02:19:45 PM
Well, I strongly disagree that it's a "minor issue"
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: AcidLameLTE on December 13, 2011, 02:21:52 PM
I don't see how distorting the truth is a minor issue.
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: bosk1 on December 13, 2011, 02:24:31 PM
Well, I strongly disagree that it's a "minor issue"

Okay.  I'm just saying it doesn't bother me much.  I mean, does it bother me that we have a corrupt and unreliable news media (as a whole, on both sides of the aisle, IMO)?  Yeah.  But I take that for granted.  And given that, even assuming this was done on purpose (which I don't know), it just strikes me as such a small, insignificant drop in the bucket that it doesn't really phase me. 

But whatever.  I can still agree that you write good music, so...
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: kirksnosehair on December 13, 2011, 02:27:05 PM
I wish BOTH sides were held to a higher standard, but unfortunately they are not. 

And thanks for the music comment  ;D
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: Scheavo on December 13, 2011, 02:39:09 PM
So...the line on the graph doesn't exactly match up with the number, and...that means something.  Okay...

You think it doesn't?  Really?  Come on, man.  I know you're not liberal, but really?

Not much, no.  I look at it this way:  If it was an accident, it's the kind of thing that happens all the time, on every major news outlet.  So, in that case, I don't see why the finger-pointing at Fox.  If it was done on purpose, it's the kind of thing that happens on the time, on every cable news outlet.  So, in that case, I don't see why the finger-pointing at Fox.  Either way, it doesn't really jump out at me as being a significant issue.  And I understand that it's easy to write off my opinion because I am a "conservative" defending a "conservative news network."  But, honestly, that's not it.  First off, I don't watch Fox news, and couldn't care less what they broadcast.  Second, it's just such a minor issue, and I would feel the same if it were MSNBC doing the same thing to a conservative president (if there was such a thing).  If people want to bash Fox News, I get it.  But there are such better arguments than something as insignificant as this.  It would be like someone making the argument that "The Nazis were bad [okay, I'm with you so far] because their grey uniforms were so drab looking [wait...you lost me there]."  I just don't see the big deal.

You should really try watching Fox News sometime, becuase you apparently don't know what you're talking about. Other networks are bad, yes, and I would love it if we had no 24 hour news networks, but that doesn't mean Fox isn't the worse offender - by far - and that it doesn't distort, lie and almost constantly present a narrative.
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: jsem on December 13, 2011, 02:43:52 PM
Okay.  I'm just saying it doesn't bother me much.  I mean, does it bother me that we have a corrupt and unreliable news media (as a whole, on both sides of the aisle, IMO)?  Yeah.  But I take that for granted.  And given that, even assuming this was done on purpose (which I don't know), it just strikes me as such a small, insignificant drop in the bucket that it doesn't really phase me. 
Both sides of the aisle? Please. There is no left mainstream media, and no true conservative mainstream media either. They're all biased in favor of corporate interest (Fox News being the worst of them all because they're very partisan). There are some exceptions in some places though, MSNBC has surprisingly good political commentators, Fox Business host both Freedom Watch and Stossel.
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: bosk1 on December 13, 2011, 02:48:58 PM
The one HUGE downside to being the forum admin is that I can't put people who fail to grasp the most simple, straightforward points on an ignore list. 
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: Super Dude on December 13, 2011, 02:50:06 PM
Bosk @ your comment about no such thing as a conservative American president: actually, even Obama is pretty far to the right compared to equivalent leaders in other developed nations. In fact, American politics as a whole is pretty conservative; even our liberalism is by the standards of other nations.
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: El Barto on December 13, 2011, 03:02:23 PM
The one HUGE downside to being the forum admin is that I can't put people who fail to grasp the most simple, straightforward points on an ignore list.
Let's not go confusing the difference between failing to grasp and just finding utterly bogus. 
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: antigoon on December 13, 2011, 03:11:30 PM
I get what Bosk is saying in some sense. It doesn't seem like a huge deal because it's just not surprising anymore that this stuff happens.

That doesn't make it OK, though.
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: Perpetual Change on December 13, 2011, 06:38:36 PM
I get what Bosk is saying in some sense. It doesn't seem like a huge deal because it's just not surprising anymore that this stuff happens.

That doesn't make it OK, though.

Yeah, but it's Fox, where stuff "happens" all the time.

You can dismiss it as the news media in general simply being corrupt, but there is little doubt that Fox is by far the worst of the cable news networks.
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: antigoon on December 13, 2011, 07:26:45 PM
Indeed.
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: Jamesman42 on December 14, 2011, 12:27:19 AM
And in truth.
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: j on December 14, 2011, 01:01:35 AM
MSNBC has surprisingly good political commentators

Oh, Jesus. :rollin

-J
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: Scheavo on December 14, 2011, 01:08:09 AM
The one HUGE downside to being the forum admin is that I can't put people who fail to grasp the most simple, straightforward points on an ignore list.

You said yourself that you don't watch Fox News. Would you, and you'd see what everyone is talking about, and why there's such a huge gripe. There's a huge difference between the unavoidable bias you are going to have as a news organization, and the intentional bias by Fox News. There's also a difference between this kind of yellow journalism, and simply bad / corrupt journalism. Your point applies to a lot of "conservative" vs "liberal" media, but it just does not apply to Fox News. They are objectively worse, and studies prove it.
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: Implode on December 14, 2011, 01:09:27 AM
Of course every news source is going to be biased. Unfortunately, Fox News tends to talk about their news in ways that commonly leads to misinformation.
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: jsem on December 14, 2011, 08:27:40 AM
MSNBC has surprisingly good political commentators

Oh, Jesus. :rollin

-J
What. For being mainstream media. You would've expected a lot worse from corporate overlords.

Everything is relative.
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: kirksnosehair on December 14, 2011, 08:31:37 AM
Relative?  Maybe, but MSNBC is definitely not objective in terms of political commentary. 

Unless you weren't meaning to imply that they're objective?
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: jsem on December 14, 2011, 08:40:23 AM
Of course not. No one is. I'm just saying, that among the bigger US news outlets, they're the lesser evil.
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: 7StringedBeast on December 14, 2011, 08:41:16 AM
Of course not. No one is. I'm just saying, that among the bigger US news outlets, they're the lesser evil.

Than CNN?
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: antigoon on December 14, 2011, 09:41:16 AM
Dylan Ratigan is legit. No partisan allegiance, talks about money in politics like every day, etc etc.

Chris Matthews though? fuck that guy.
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: tjanuranus on December 14, 2011, 10:50:44 AM
I'm encouraged about the interest in reality, the beginning of wisdom is an acknowlegement of lack of understanding.  So, we will start with the basics:

1.  There is a God
2. There is a right and wrong
3. You have to learn the right and wrong.

Once you get these down, let me know.

You believe there is a god. Big difference. You sir have forgotten the face of your father.
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: Scheavo on December 14, 2011, 02:31:37 PM
Relative?  Maybe, but MSNBC is definitely not objective in terms of political commentary. 

Unless you weren't meaning to imply that they're objective?

Can be biased, but still intelligent and have an opinion worth hearing. Fox news is biased, and just downright factually wrong.
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: kirksnosehair on December 14, 2011, 05:44:34 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sl4ZaI_Teoc




Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: kirksnosehair on December 14, 2011, 05:46:10 PM
Relative?  Maybe, but MSNBC is definitely not objective in terms of political commentary. 

Unless you weren't meaning to imply that they're objective?

Can be biased, but still intelligent and have an opinion worth hearing. Fox news is biased, and just downright factually wrong.

And I denied that when?
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: Perpetual Change on December 14, 2011, 06:08:29 PM
Relative?  Maybe, but MSNBC is definitely not objective in terms of political commentary. 

Unless you weren't meaning to imply that they're objective?

Rachel Maddow, Chris Mathews, and so on may be annoying, and they all have their biases; but I really do think they all have enough pride in their work no to throw an intentionally tampered with graph up on the screen. Fox, on the other hand, seems more like the place where everyone's actively doing things that fly in the face of journalistic integrity. And considering all the things happening to Murdoch's empire everywhere, I really wouldn't be surprised if we find out Fox is the scummy organization all sane people know it to be after all.


(https://chzdailywhat.files.wordpress.com/2011/12/31219e2a-a78a-403c-8823-218586e16371.jpg)
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: jsem on December 15, 2011, 02:30:08 AM
LOL! HAHHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAH

So much fail in that.
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: Sigz on December 15, 2011, 02:14:33 PM
Until you can show an example of someone besides Fox doing shit like this, I'll maintain that yeah, they're a bit more malicious than the other networks:

(https://cloudfront.mediamatters.org/static/images/item/fox-20080702-steinberg.jpg)
https://mediamatters.org/research/200807020002

Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: abrahamclark on December 17, 2011, 03:35:47 PM
It's not just Fox news.  It's all of the MSM's major headlines.  The major headlines are the same regardless of which Network you watch.  These headlines also trickle down to local affiliates.  This is why we haven't heard squat in the MSM about the indefinite detention bill that just passed. 
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: Riceball on December 17, 2011, 07:17:46 PM
Until you can show an example of someone besides Fox doing shit like this, I'll maintain that yeah, they're a bit more malicious than the other networks:

(https://cloudfront.mediamatters.org/static/images/item/fox-20080702-steinberg.jpg)
https://mediamatters.org/research/200807020002
That's hilarious  :rollin

How do they get away with stuff like that?
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: chknptpie on December 17, 2011, 07:22:02 PM
Relative?  Maybe, but MSNBC is definitely not objective in terms of political commentary. 

Unless you weren't meaning to imply that they're objective?

Rachel Maddow, Chris Mathews, and so on may be annoying, and they all have their biases; but I really do think they all have enough pride in their work no to throw an intentionally tampered with graph up on the screen. Fox, on the other hand, seems more like the place where everyone's actively doing things that fly in the face of journalistic integrity. And considering all the things happening to Murdoch's empire everywhere, I really wouldn't be surprised if we find out Fox is the scummy organization all sane people know it to be after all.


(https://chzdailywhat.files.wordpress.com/2011/12/31219e2a-a78a-403c-8823-218586e16371.jpg)

There is no way they could have "accidentally" placed Obama's picture for Romney... right? It's not like it was a single image that is being pulled up that could be mistaken. This was an image built for the discussion.
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: Scheavo on December 18, 2011, 02:12:16 PM
It's not just Fox news.  It's all of the MSM's major headlines.  The major headlines are the same regardless of which Network you watch.  These headlines also trickle down to local affiliates.  This is why we haven't heard squat in the MSM about the indefinite detention bill that just passed.


The exact way those headlines are worded are not the same. The way those headlines are discussed are not the same. This is what bothers people the most about Fox News, and the general culpability and lack real journalism in the MSM doesn't in anyway justify Fox New's actions.
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: Super Dude on December 18, 2011, 02:36:32 PM
Besides which, blaming the mainstream media for all of journalism's problems seems a little silly.
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: ClairvoyantCat on January 09, 2012, 08:11:36 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/baYGt.jpg)

Interesting. 
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: Ultimetalhead on January 09, 2012, 08:13:24 PM
Hm, so they're not just trying to skew everything, they are genuinely lazy/stupid.
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: ClairvoyantCat on January 09, 2012, 08:21:00 PM
The strange thing is that it doesn't really seem like laziness to create your own (incorrect) graphic when you could alternatively copy from a current and correct one easily.  Almost like they went out of their way to be wrong. 


Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: Super Dude on January 09, 2012, 08:29:09 PM
Bypassing the obvious question in rebuttal, what do those countries have to do with the Iowa Caucuses?
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: AcidLameLTE on January 09, 2012, 08:35:12 PM
The Republican candidates were debating about which European country to nuke first.
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: Super Dude on January 09, 2012, 08:35:54 PM
The Republican candidates were debating about which European country to nuke first.

Unfortunately I wouldn't be surprised.
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: AcidLameLTE on January 09, 2012, 08:37:26 PM
Got to kill off those Godless, freedom hating Communists while you still can.
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: MasterShakezula on January 09, 2012, 08:43:40 PM
Are there even any countries in Eastern Europe continuing under anything resembling the former USSR's system, let alone Lenin's original ideals regarding communism?   ???

Why is communism such a commonly thrown-around word in US politics?

Most the time I hear it used, it makes little to no sense.
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: Ultimetalhead on January 09, 2012, 08:45:20 PM
Are there even any countries in Eastern Europe continuing under anything resembling the former USSR's system, let alone Lenin's original ideals regarding communism?   ???
I don't think communism has been a legitimate issue since the cold war, no. In other words,

(https://www.reece-eu.net/gallery/var/albums/funny/thats-the-joke.jpg)
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: Super Dude on January 09, 2012, 08:58:08 PM
Why is communism such a commonly thrown-around word in US politics?

If I may recommend to you a book: https://www.amazon.com/America-Divided-Civil-War-1960s/dp/0195160479
Title: Re: Take back any benefit of the doubt you ever gave Fox News
Post by: Riceball on January 09, 2012, 09:25:27 PM
Well, you've got North Korea and China essentially, although both aren't really communist per se.

NK is more like Stalinism (or brokenism), while China is command-and-control capitalism.