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General => Archive => Political and Religious => Topic started by: Ħ on August 20, 2011, 02:07:18 PM
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I'm trying to figure out what this means. Someone shed some light on it for me. And does it basically mean the same thing for everyone that says it?
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I guess it would depend on how you define spiritual.
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Been on online dating sites lately? :lol
(that's the standard phrase you see there)
Frankly it always struck me as a blahblah phrase that only means they don't spend much time thinking about religion or whatever.
rumborak
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It basically means that they have strong spiritual inclinations, believing in God/Gods, spirits, an afterlife of sorts and the like; but they don't really care much for any organized form of faith, with rituals, observances, holidays, etc, nor do they feel the need to be around people of a similar faith to worship. I have actually described my self with such a phrase at various times, because while I am a person of deep spiritual beliefs and thought, I generally do not feel the desire or need to take part in any religious organization or group, even if I identify myself of a certain belief system.
Frankly it always struck me as a blahblah phrase that only means they don't spend much time thinking about religion or whatever.
rumborak
You could not be more wrong about this, dude. I have known people of various faiths who think about spiritual matters all the time, but simply feel that religion in an organized form tends to take away from the personal experience of spirituality. They often use a phrase such as H posted to describe themselves and their beliefs.
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I'm kind of like that. I was raised Roman Catholic, went to RC school from preK-12th, and then when I was about 20 I started really doubting.. I'm not sure what I believe right now specifically, but in a way I'm a theist.. I take the "can't get something from nothing" stand... something/one had to start it all at some point.. whether they interfere or change everything after that initial spark is where I am doubtful.
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I have also understood the phrase as Dark Master described.
Open to spiritual themes but generally not involved in organized religion
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It basically means that they have strong spiritual inclinations, believing in God/Gods, spirits, an afterlife of sorts and the like; but they don't really care much for any organized form of faith, with rituals, observances, holidays, etc, nor do they feel the need to be around people of a similar faith to worship. I have actually described my self with such a phrase at various times, because while I am a person of deep spiritual beliefs and thought, I generally do not feel the desire or need to take part in any religious organization or group, even if I identify myself of a certain belief system.
Frankly it always struck me as a blahblah phrase that only means they don't spend much time thinking about religion or whatever.
rumborak
You could not be more wrong about this, dude. I have known people of various faiths who think about spiritual matters all the time, but simply feel that religion in an organized form tends to take away from the personal experience of spirituality. They often use a phrase such as H posted to describe themselves and their beliefs.
It doesn't really make sense AFAICT though as religion basically means connect to God. Spiritual is in my view just an expression of that. On the other hand, arguably anybody is spiritual if their "God" is in fact their ultimate reality.
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I'm guessing this would be basically what Dark Master stated, so I'm just reiterating that it's someone who is open to and believes in an afterlife, a soul, a higher being, perhaps, but doesn't tie themselves down with one particular religion.
I feel as if some people find some religions to be more of a burden than a help, so being open to anything works for them.
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Well basically what I was saying is that a spiritual person is someone to whom spirituality (gods, afterlife, a moral code that has some sort of assumed supernatural or divine basis, etc), is not the same thing as a religion, which is to some just an institution of spirituality (church/temple services, well defined religious texts, strictly defined set of morals and ethics, regular and systematized observances of religious holidays/sacrifices/customs, etc). While there is certainly some cross-over between the two groups, they can, at times, be very different things.
It doesn't really make sense AFAICT though as religion basically means connect to God. Spiritual is in my view just an expression of that. On the other hand, arguably anybody is spiritual if their "God" is in fact their ultimate reality.
In the mind of someone who is "spiritual, not religious", religion is not the connection to the Divine, per se, rather it is the institution of that connection. I suppose you could say that religion is an institution that supplies spirituality, much like how schools supply education. You don't need to go to school to be educated, you can do that yourself if you are resourceful enough, but it is how most people pursue their learning. The same is true of religion and spiritualism: you don't need to be a committed member of an organized religion to actually have a connection to the Divine, but religion is the medium through which most seek some sort of divine communion.
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Well, I was talking to someone who identified themselves as spiritual but did not believe in the supernatural.
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I think rumby and TDM both got it. Some people are one, the other, or a mix.
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Well, I was talking to someone who identified themselves as spiritual but did not believe in the supernatural.
That is interesting. If they do not believe in anything supernatural, in what manner do they consider themselves spiritual? (unless they do not count divine entities, such as Gods, as "supernatural")
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Well, I was talking to someone who identified themselves as spiritual but did not believe in the supernatural.
That is interesting. If they do not believe in anything supernatural, in what manner do they consider themselves spiritual? (unless they do not count divine entities, such as Gods, as "supernatural")
If they believe that we are more than the sum of our parts, they can be considered spiritual.
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Well, I was talking to someone who identified themselves as spiritual but did not believe in the supernatural.
That is interesting. If they do not believe in anything supernatural, in what manner do they consider themselves spiritual? (unless they do not count divine entities, such as Gods, as "supernatural")
If they believe that we are more than the sum of our parts, they can be considered spiritual.
By that do you mean they might believe that the human "self" consists of not just the physical self, but a "spirit-self" as well?
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Close enough.
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Ok, then. If that is the case, I can see why they would consider themselves spiritual but not religious, as they believe in some sort of spiritual dimension to reality, but do follow any particular organized religion.
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I have a friend that is a good example. She considers herself a spiritual Christian but does not go to church or get involved in anything organized that has to do with her beliefs. Funny thing is though, she seems to me not to be all that spiritual either even though she likes to label herself as such. I think in the context of Christianity you need to be able to accept some part of organized worship, fellowship, or study to help you along in your faith.
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"Spirituality" has always seemed to me to be more of a characteristic of a person, whereas religiosity is more of a direct practice or belief. I'd say that all religious people are spiritual, but not all spiritual people are religious.
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Well, I was talking to someone who identified themselves as spiritual but did not believe in the supernatural.
That is interesting. If they do not believe in anything supernatural, in what manner do they consider themselves spiritual? (unless they do not count divine entities, such as Gods, as "supernatural")
Perhaps they believe more in a nature type spirit? ala native american type of spirituality?
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I think rumby and TDM both got it. Some people are one, the other, or a mix.
I think that's true. I think the phrase is kinda a "don't bother asking me further" thing and thus captures a wide spectrum of people who will use that phrase.
rumborak
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Agreed with that
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'im spiritual but not reigious' translates to 'i dont believe in religious teachings but dont want to admit that death is the end'
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I always cringe a little when somebody says this. I assume the person saying it wants to distance themselves from "traditional" religious practices, while still appearing open-minded. In reality, if they are "spiritual" and it affects the way they live on a day-to-day basis, they ARE religious. Not to mention, even after reading the responses in this thread attempting to explain it, I have no idea what being "spiritual" is supposed to mean at all.
-J
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I always cringe a little when somebody says this. I assume the person saying it wants to distance themselves from "traditional" religious practices, while still appearing open-minded. In reality, if they are "spiritual" and it affects the way they live on a day-to-day basis, they ARE religious. Not to mention, even after reading the responses in this thread attempting to explain it, I have no idea what being "spiritual" is supposed to mean at all.
-J
So if I believe a person is more than just a bunch of bodily functions and firing neurons, I am religious?
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I always cringe a little when somebody says this. I assume the person saying it wants to distance themselves from "traditional" religious practices, while still appearing open-minded. In reality, if they are "spiritual" and it affects the way they live on a day-to-day basis, they ARE religious. Not to mention, even after reading the responses in this thread attempting to explain it, I have no idea what being "spiritual" is supposed to mean at all.
-J
So if I believe a person is more than just a bunch of bodily functions and firing neurons, I am religious?
If it affects your outlook on life in some way, and by extension, the choices you make and the way you live, then yes.
Although "religion" is generally taken to mean going to church and reciting prayers and singing hymns every Sunday, it's really just a set of beliefs or a worldview. And these things tend to affect the way a person lives.
-J
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It's also a set of rituals. Beliefs by themselves do not equate religion.
Or else every set of political, philosophical, psychological, sociological etc beliefs are considered religions.
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It's also a set of rituals. Beliefs by themselves do not equate religion.
Or else every set of political, philosophical, psychological, sociological etc beliefs are considered religions.
Rituals are just repeated behaviors, which are influenced by our beliefs. And yes, to some degree those things could be considered "religions", except that they don't necessarily deal with the supernatural.
I'm not sure why religion is such a dirty word to so many people, I suspect that's the attitude that is the origin of phrases like the one in the OP.
-J
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In the same way, then, science has become a religion. Now, I think this is true on some level, but it seems more advantageous to me distinguish the two upon ontological grounds than epistemological grounds, and keep the two separate enough.
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Fine, everyone has a belief to some extent about the supernatural, thus making everyone religious. And if everyone is religious then no one is religious.
Thus we need a stricter definition of religious in order for it to exist in reality and in contrast, so we'll just use my definition for the sake of convenience and thus I'm not religious.
Glad we worked that out. Pie?
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In the same way, then, science has become a religion. Now, I think this is true on some level, but it seems more advantageous to me distinguish the two upon ontological grounds than epistemological grounds, and keep the two separate enough.
Yeah I agree. It's just clear to me in these types of discussions that the things that jump to mind when people hear "religion" are images of the two or three major world religions (which are often distasteful to them) when in reality it encompasses a lot more than that.
Fine, everyone has a belief to some extent about the supernatural, thus making everyone religious. And if everyone is religious then no one is religious.
Thus we need a stricter definition of religious in order for it to exist in reality and in contrast, so we'll just use my definition for the sake of convenience and thus I'm not religious.
Fair enough. But IMO it'd be more accurate to just say something straightforward like "I don't identify with any particular major religion".
Glad we worked that out. Pie?
(https://farm3.static.flickr.com/2212/2408588559_7bf815d9f9.jpg)
-J
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Just to be fair, I am not saying I'm not religious because I have a distaste for religion or anything, I just define religion differently than you do.
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"Religion" comes from the Latin religare - "to bind." It refers to a strict set of rules, regulations, and doctrines. Therefore, it is perfectly OK to be spiritual, even spiritually Christian, without being religious.
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Been on online dating sites lately? :lol
(that's the standard phrase you see there)
Frankly it always struck me as a blahblah phrase that only means they don't spend much time thinking about religion or whatever.
rumborak
What do you use - agnostic? I've met a couple of women using this. One was hindu the other christian but they didn't want to be labelled.
Also, please give your thuoghts on "bubbly", "down to earth" because they always strike me as red lights.
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I personally have used "agnostic", yeah. But I also understood that many girls who would put down "spiritual but not religious" were really the same as me, they just didn't want to make an active statement about it.
Regarding "bubbly", yeah, that's pretty much a red flag for me too :lol At least in the US I would take it as a euphemism for ditzy or a chatterbox, like "Body type: Average" means she's actually significantly overweight.
"Down to Earth" was always a plus for me, but frankly, almost all of them say that about themselves.
rumborak
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Lol. "Bubbly" = annoying.
"Body type: Average" means she's actually significantly overweight.
For some reason I find this hilarious, even though I'm sure it's true and no laughing matter for people who use online dating sites.
But if you think about it, she's probably not lying.
-J
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Average in the US is overweight.
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Spiritual means you follow your own rules. Religious means you follow someone else's rules.
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"Religion" comes from the Latin religare - "to bind." It refers to a strict set of rules, regulations, and doctrines. Therefore, it is perfectly OK to be spiritual, even spiritually Christian, without being religious.
Whereas spiritis means "to breath", which implies to be an essence to be given and taken from outside yourself, be it God, nature, or the essence of your fellows(love).
(btw mods, feel free to lock my other thread, I didn't see this one, sorry)
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Spiritual means you follow your own rules. Religious means you follow someone else's rules.
That's kind of how I see it. Not necessarily in a negative way though. Religion stems from spirituality and takes form in prayer, worship and rules and regulations that are decided for you (not to say that they aren't good rules, just that they're predetermined) whereas spirituality is more the basic essence that you feel individually. So in that respect, it's perfectly reasonable for people to describe themselves as spiritual but not religious. Those are just my definitions of the words though.
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As a Christian, I always thought that to be religious was to follow rules and have your actions based on these rules without any true spiritual connection to God. Where Spirituality is to have a one on one connection with God and having your actions flow out of that. So, Religion is to follow with your body while your head controls, Spirituality to follow with your soul while your heart controls.
*I just made that last sentence up, so it may be pretty baloney-ous.
*I also made that last word up.
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I love baloney-ous.
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It's BALOGNA.
BA LOG NA
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I really don't care.
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It's BALOGNA.
BA LOG NA
It's pureed, seasoned pig flesh, pressed into a casing made of intestinal lining, then boiled, cooled, sliced, and served in the consumers desired fashion.
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When people say they're spiritual but not religious it suggests to me that they want to hold on to the fluffy, feel-good qualities of religion without grappling with the difficult questions that usually accompany embracing a religious or philosophical view. I know this doesn't describe all spiritual people, but I think it fits most people in modern America.
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When people say they're spiritual but not religious it suggests to me that they want to hold on to the fluffy, feel-good qualities of religion without grappling with the difficult questions that usually accompany embracing a religious or philosophical view. I know this doesn't describe all spiritual people, but I think it fits most people in modern America.
Well that's a rather harsh view.
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When people say they're spiritual but not religious it suggests to me that they want to hold on to the fluffy, feel-good qualities of religion without grappling with the difficult questions that usually accompany embracing a religious or philosophical view. I know this doesn't describe all spiritual people, but I think it fits most people in modern America.
you mean our largely christian nation?
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When people say they're spiritual but not religious it suggests to me that they want to hold on to the fluffy, feel-good qualities of religion without grappling with the difficult questions that usually accompany embracing a religious or philosophical view. I know this doesn't describe all spiritual people, but I think it fits most people in modern America.
I think pretty much the opposite; to me being spiritual means you deal with all those difficult questions and think about all the things that are at the core of religion (higher power, morality etc etc) just leave out the prayer/community/consigning yourself to a labelled demographic (not to say that any of those things are fluffy or feelgood qualities as you mentioned). That's how I see it anyway, and I know you said you don't mean everyone just most, but I think most people are the way I described. Guess it could just be a difference between America and Britain :P
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When people say they're spiritual but not religious it suggests to me that they want to hold on to the fluffy, feel-good qualities of religion without grappling with the difficult questions that usually accompany embracing a religious or philosophical view. I know this doesn't describe all spiritual people, but I think it fits most people in modern America.
I think pretty much the opposite; to me being spiritual means you deal with all those difficult questions and think about all the things that are at the core of religion (higher power, morality etc etc) just leave out the prayer/community/consigning yourself to a labelled demographic (not to say that any of those things are fluffy or feelgood qualities as you mentioned). That's how I see it anyway, and I know you said you don't mean everyone just most, but I think most people are the way I described. Guess it could just be a difference between America and Britain :P
I have a habit of coming across like a dick even when I don't mean to. My description is based on my interactions with people around me and it certainly doesn't apply to everyone.
When people say they're spiritual but not religious it suggests to me that they want to hold on to the fluffy, feel-good qualities of religion without grappling with the difficult questions that usually accompany embracing a religious or philosophical view. I know this doesn't describe all spiritual people, but I think it fits most people in modern America.
you mean our largely christian nation?
Unfortunately, yes.
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Well you also live in California right?
In which case, yea I'd agree with your definition considering the people I've met in Cali.
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When people say they're spiritual but not religious it suggests to me that they want to hold on to the fluffy, feel-good qualities of religion without grappling with the difficult questions that usually accompany embracing a religious or philosophical view. I know this doesn't describe all spiritual people, but I think it fits most people in modern America.
I think pretty much the opposite; to me being spiritual means you deal with all those difficult questions and think about all the things that are at the core of religion (higher power, morality etc etc) just leave out the prayer/community/consigning yourself to a labelled demographic (not to say that any of those things are fluffy or feelgood qualities as you mentioned). That's how I see it anyway, and I know you said you don't mean everyone just most, but I think most people are the way I described. Guess it could just be a difference between America and Britain :P
I have a habit of coming across like a dick even when I don't mean to. My description is based on my interactions with people around me and it certainly doesn't apply to everyone.
You didn't come across as a dick to me, I just think you've judged a lot of people due to your own experiences of those around you. Just reminding you that not everyone's like that ;)
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Well you also live in California right?
Unfortunately, yes.
In which case, yea I'd agree with your definition considering the people I've met in Cali.
There's a good amount of diversity here. But the coffee-sipping progressive types are who I have in mind.
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those goddamned progressives and their fucking goddamn coffee
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those goddamned progressives and their fucking goddamn coffee
I know, right? I don't dislike the sipping of coffee, but judging by your response I think I captured the essence of the people I was describing.
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those goddamned progressives and their fucking goddamn coffee
:rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin
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Progressives?
I like some of their ideas, but I'd take them a lot more seriously if they actually did shit.
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Progressives are what happened when politicians stopped making 3 page bills about the economy and started making 3000 page bills about nothing whatsoever.
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So that makes where I live what? (Berkeley, Ca)
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I have a habit of coming across like a dick even when I don't mean to.
Well, having met you in person, I can definitely say that I have no idea whether that is how you mean to come across or not.
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Rumby, does the girls in their profile who write the title of this thread complement their description with a "I suck but I don't swallow" punchline?
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I have a habit of coming across like a dick even when I don't mean to.
Well, having met you in person, I can definitely say that I have no idea whether that is how you mean to come across or not.
Music making is usually a joyous activity. I wouldn't expect my cynicism to come out in full force in that setting - and I wanted to make a good impression. ;)