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Dream Theater => Dream Theater => Topic started by: Perpetual Change on June 22, 2009, 08:08:23 AM
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My feelings:
This album, stylistically, is very similar to its predecessor. And while that's not something to be all the excited about, something about Black Clouds seems so much more refreshed and energetic. Lyrically, it's not fantastic but it doesn't stick out like the sore thumb a'la Systematic Chaos. Musically, it's the best thing the band have done since Six Degrees.
Final Verdict:
1.)Scenes From a Memory
2.)Six Degrees
3.)Awake
4.)Black Clouds & Silver Linings
4.)Images and Words
6.)Train of Thought
6.)Octavarium
8.)Falling Into Infinity
9.)Systematic Chaos
10.)When Dream and Day Unite
My Review: https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=2336.0
DISCUSS
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It's up there with the best of them.
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Somewhere between good and up there with the best of them. I'd call it better than good, but still not up there with IaW/SDOIT/SFAM. But a strong album. I put my short review in the BCASL discussion thread.
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Still another 12 hours for us Yanks.
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It's up there with the best of them... The count Of Tuscany, one of DT's best album closers, a true epic song.
Steve
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It's up there with the best DT albums and currently battling SDOIT for 3rd place (and it looks like it's winning right now).
Review coming up, I hope I'll find to write it in the next couple of days.
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Fighting for 4th on my list at the moment with Awake.
The Best of Times solo is one of Petrucci's best for sure, and without fail every time I listen to the count of tuscany I get shivers, incidently tuscany is now my second favourite DT song.
It's everything plus more that I was hoping for! :metal
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Still another 12 hours for us Yanks.
You just don't shop at the right stores! Or did you do a pre-order?
It's up there with the best DT albums and currently battling SDOIT for 3rd place.
Review coming up, I hope I'll find to write it in the next couple of days.
I agree. I want to put it up higher on my list but I'm scared of making overly brash statements.
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It's good.
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Up there with the best of them, bets since SFAM. i have really liked all the albums since SFAM aswell. TOT got me into DT in the first place.
Listening to The Count Of Tuscany is a pleasure especially from the ambient spacey section onwards. best end since ITNOG
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"A Nightmare to Remember," "The Best of Times" and "The Count of Tuscany" are some of their best songs of the 00s.
"A Nightmare to Remember" is a fantastic song, with a great mellow middle section, some cool vocal melodies, and some seriously badass playing by John Petrucci throughout.
"The Best of Times" manages to be beautiful, melancholy and wistful all at the same time, and without being cheesy at all. JP's solo at the end is ridiculously great.
"The Count of Tuscany" is marvelous, despite the corny lyrics. Great intro, and when it picks up right before the first vocals, that is one of the best riffs they have written in a long time. Love, love, love the acoustic-driven vocal section near the end, and JLB's "woah"'s during the outro are just magnificent.
"Wither" is a wonderfully catchy song.
"A Rite of Passage" is good; good bridge and chorus. I sometimes lose interest once the second chorus is over, as I think the extended instrumental section isn't overly memorable, but still, good song overall.
"The Shattered Fortress" is easily my least favorite. I feel like too much of the song is taken from riffs and melodies from the previous AA songs (instead of it being a song with a few of them dotted here and there), and the new stuff isn't that great. Not a bad song by any means.
Overall, 4/5 stars. Not as great as the Big 3 (I&W, Awake, SFAM) or 6DOIT, but a massive upgrade over the previous three. If it ages well, I could see it being my 5th favorite DT record (although comparing it to FII will be tough, as FII's highs are higher, but its lows are also lower).
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It's good.
Your use of words astounds me :lol
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The only problem I have with the album is The Count of Tuscany's lyrics. Overall, a MUCH better album than SC :metal
4 thumbs up :neverusethis:
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The only problem I have with the album is The Count of Tuscany's lyrics. Overall, a MUCH better album than SC :metal
4 thumbs up :neverusethis:
I love them, it's crazy and goofy, but it's well done. The ending makes up for it though, easily.
ANTR - Didn't like it at first, was too random but you get used to it. The clean section of the song is beautiful, and easily the best part of the album.
AROP - Solid through and through, Constant Motion2.0, will be a good concert song.
Wither - Decent song, what you'd expect from any softer DT song.
The Shattered Fortress - Ultimately disappointed with the reuse of material, but it's very well done. The 2nd JP solo is fucking sweet.
TBOT - Some cringeworthy parts, but a great tribute to his father. The music is fantastic.
TCOT - Amazing. The first part is prog heaven, and the ending of the song is stunning; the only recent-DT era song I've teared up on. (oops, forgot about Vacant)
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The only problem I have with the album is The Count of Tuscany's lyrics. Overall, a MUCH better album than SC :metal
4 thumbs up :neverusethis:
I actually have more of a problem with the melodies than the lyrics, but it's a sort of double whammy. The melodies follow the chords too closely, and also I don't like spoken vocals (that goes for any artist, any song, not just DT or MP). Although the lyrics are a bit strange, I could handle them a lot better if the melodies were better. But I don't hate it. It just doesn't match up to the rest of the song, which is incredible.
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The only problem I have with the album is The Count of Tuscany's lyrics. Overall, a MUCH better album than SC :metal
4 thumbs up :neverusethis:
I actually have more of a problem with the melodies than the lyrics, but it's a sort of double whammy. The melodies follow the chords too closely, and also I don't like spoken vocals (that goes for any artist, any song, not just DT or MP). Although the lyrics are a bit strange, I could handle them a lot better if the melodies were better. But I don't hate it. It just doesn't match up to the rest of the song, which is incredible.
Well, the lyrics don't bother me too much. It's just when they start trying to make them sound badass e.g. "SUCKING ON HIS PIPE".
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Still another 12 hours for us Yanks.
You just don't shop at the right stores! Or did you do a pre-order?
I pre-ordered, but there's currently 13 hours until it's June 23rd. I should get it later today, but I've kind of confused.
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The only problem I have with the album is The Count of Tuscany's lyrics. Overall, a MUCH better album than SC :metal
4 thumbs up :neverusethis:
I actually have more of a problem with the melodies than the lyrics, but it's a sort of double whammy. The melodies follow the chords too closely, and also I don't like spoken vocals (that goes for any artist, any song, not just DT or MP). Although the lyrics are a bit strange, I could handle them a lot better if the melodies were better. But I don't hate it. It just doesn't match up to the rest of the song, which is incredible.
Well, the lyrics don't bother me too much. It's just when they start trying to make them sound badass e.g. "SUCKING ON HIS PIPE".
Yeah, as I said, I don't like spoken vocals. So that is the part that sort of kills it for me. The rest I don't have a huge problem with at all
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You could almost say that part makes you...wither?
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You could almost say that part makes you...wither?
And renders myself helpless.
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"A Nightmare to Remember," "The Best of Times" and "The Count of Tuscany" are some of their best songs of the 00s.
"A Nightmare to Remember" is a fantastic song, with a great mellow middle section, some cool vocal melodies, and some seriously badass playing by John Petrucci throughout.
"The Best of Times" manages to be beautiful, melancholy and wistful all at the same time, and without being cheesy at all. JP's solo at the end is ridiculously great.
"The Count of Tuscany" is marvelous, despite the corny lyrics. Great intro, and when it picks up right before the first vocals, that is one of the best riffs they have written in a long time. Love, love, love the acoustic-driven vocal section near the end, and JLB's "woah"'s during the outro are just magnificent.
"Wither" is a wonderfully catchy song.
"A Rite of Passage" is good; good bridge and chorus. I sometimes lose interest once the second chorus is over, as I think the extended instrumental section isn't overly memorable, but still, good song overall.
"The Shattered Fortress" is easily my least favorite. I feel like too much of the song is taken from riffs and melodies from the previous AA songs (instead of it being a song with a few of them dotted here and there), and the new stuff isn't that great. Not a bad song by any means.
Overall, 4/5 stars. Not as great as the Big 3 (I&W, Awake, SFAM) or 6DOIT, but a massive upgrade over the previous three. If it ages well, I could see it being my 5th favorite DT record (although comparing it to FII will be tough, as FII's highs are higher, but its lows are also lower).
'
Well, this is certainly unexpected! It's nice to know, though! Let's me know this isn't just blind fanboyism!
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You could almost say that part makes you...wither?
And renders myself helpless.
I break Pantera...I mean down
(At least I think it's "I break down". I haven't had a look at the lyrics yet).
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The chorus in "A Nightmare to Remember" (Hopelessly drifting...) is beyond amazing. I'm speechless. :o
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AROP - Solid through and through, Constant Motion2.0, will be a good concert song.
Constant Motion2.0? Hell no. Those two songs are nothing alike, except in their structure (verse - chorus - verse - chorus - long instrumental section featuring a guitar solo first and keyboard solo second - chorus).
Well, this is certainly unexpected! It's nice to know, though! Let's me know this isn't just blind fanboyism!
I am probably one of the last people on this forum that you can expect blind fanboyism from. :lol :biggrin:
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expect*
or is it right. God dammit you're confusing me, kev.
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The chorus in "A Nightmare to Remember" (Hopelessly drifting...) is beyond amazing. I'm speechless. :o
BATHING IN BEAUTIFUL AGGGONNNNYYY
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After 3 listens, i'm saying that it has jumped over 6DOIT as my favorite album. I can't stop listening to it. :metal
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This album is definitely a refinement of the Modern DT sound. Miles better than Systematic Chaos.
Track-by-track
A Nightmare To Remember - The first 8.5 minutes of this song are pure brilliance. The rest is good, but I feel it goes on for a few minutes too long. The MP rap is actually really fun and I don't mind it at all.
A Rite of Passage - Good single. I love the vocals in the verse and the chorus is truly good. The instrumental section (along with the bleeps and bloops) manages to keep my interest. I wish they had found a better way to transition into the final chorus, or better yet just eliminated it.
Wither - DT's best ballad of the last 7 or so years. Rudess really shines on this one. I love the sounds he uses in the instrumental break before the bridge.
The Shattered Fortress - I can see why people don't like this song, but I think it was constructed extremely skillfully. Has more "balls" than Constant Motion and The Dark Eternal Night combined, while also featuring one of the album's more emotional passages in the soft section. And try to tell me you didn't have a huge grin on your face at the end of the song with the TGP intro reprise.
The Best of Times - The most unfortunate song on the record. The lyrics really make this hard to listen to for me, which is a real shame because the music is VERY good. Petrucci's near three minute ride out solo is one of the best things he's done in years (and that is TRULY saying something). Rudess is also in top form here.
The Count of Tuscany - DT has recovered from their misstep of an album closer that was ITPOE, Pt. 2 with an epic that earns its place right up there with Octavarium and A Change of Seasons. And I'm just going to throw this out there and say I LOVE the lyrics. They combine the tongue-in-cheek fantasy stuff on Systematic Chaos and the "real life experience" lyrics of late into something really entertaining and silly. The last 3 minutes of this song is one of the best moments of the band's entire career.
Overall: 4/5
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AROP - Solid through and through, Constant Motion2.0, will be a good concert song.
Constant Motion2.0? Hell no. Those two songs are nothing alike, except in their structure (verse - chorus - verse - chorus - long instrumental section featuring a guitar solo first and keyboard solo second - chorus).
Well, yes. I'm just saying that it's a solid rocker for me. Nothing mind blowing, but it's solid. (I like Constant Motion, so that doesn't apply for you)
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The Best of Times - The most unfortunate song on the record. The lyrics really make this hard to listen to for me, which is a real shame because the music is VERY good. Petrucci's near three minute ride out solo is one of the best things he's done in years (and that is TRULY saying something). Rudess is also in top form here.
I think the lyrics are a little too simplistic at times, but in general, they are not a detriment to the song, considering what it is about. I like the nod back to ACOS with the "seize the day" line, and the way JLB sings, "These were the best of times," in the latter part of the song has a melancholy wistfulness to it that is very cool.
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I love BC&SL so much I want to take it behind the middle school and get it pregnant.
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The Best of Times - The most unfortunate song on the record. The lyrics really make this hard to listen to for me, which is a real shame because the music is VERY good. Petrucci's near three minute ride out solo is one of the best things he's done in years (and that is TRULY saying something). Rudess is also in top form here.
I think the lyrics are a little too simplistic at times, but in general, they are not a detriment to the song, considering what it is about. I like the nod back to ACOS with the "seize the day" line, and the way JLB sings, "These were the best of times," in the latter part of the song has a melancholy wistfulness to it that is very cool.
I like that part too. I guess the main part that spoils it for me is the "thank you for" section. I also think James falls flat in the beginning verses.
but holy shit that guitar solo. :D
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The Best of Times - The most unfortunate song on the record. The lyrics really make this hard to listen to for me, which is a real shame because the music is VERY good. Petrucci's near three minute ride out solo is one of the best things he's done in years (and that is TRULY saying something). Rudess is also in top form here.
I think the lyrics are a little too simplistic at times, but in general, they are not a detriment to the song, considering what it is about. I like the nod back to ACOS with the "seize the day" line, and the way JLB sings, "These were the best of times," in the latter part of the song has a melancholy wistfulness to it that is very cool.
I think the lyrics are fantastic; call them simple, but my heart melts when I hear James sing My heart is bleeding bad... but I'll be OK. Then again I watch a lot of anime so I'm used to and quite like sentimental cliches.
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and the way JLB sings, "These were the best of times," in the latter part of the song has a melancholy wistfulness to it that is very cool.
Interesting. I personally find that line/vocal melody quite cheesy.
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I'm going to review this album with food metaphors.
Some of the songs are mediocre sandwiches. The Count of Tuscany is a mediocre sandwich with the mediocre spread really thin in the middle, but with luscious, fresh baked loaves of delicious bread. The Best of Times has the mediocre spread a lot thicker, so that it sort of overwhelms the delicious bread taste.
Some songs are good sandwiches dipped in Mediocre au jus. A Nightmare to Remember starts off really strong, and gets even better as you reach the middle of the sandwich, but then you reach the Mediocre sauce at about 8:30 and it only gets stronger as it moves towards the end. The Shattered Fortress starts OK, remains OK until you hit that mediocre taste towards the end.
And some songs are jelly beans. They're short, sort of sweet, but really fail to distinguish themselves either way. Wither and a Rite of Passage fall into this category.
Overall, a decent album, but it can be difficult to listen to some songs because they tend to get dragged down one way or another. However, definitely some brilliant parts, and one brilliant song in the Count.
3/5
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The only problem I have with the album is The Count of Tuscany's lyrics. Overall, a MUCH better album than SC :metal
4 thumbs up :neverusethis:
i have to agree, i've never really had an opinion about dt's lyrics until this album. i've never had a problem with their lyrics, becasue even with their weaker efforts, i could sing along without a problem. but, i have to say that the lyrics to TCoT are actually very distracting to me. when i first heard the lyrics i could not sing along without laughing. i guess thats changing, i really love the chorus, i think its really strong, one of the best i know of to sing along to ("I...want to stay alIVE..) but the lyrics, imo, are just not good. oh well, im sure they will lose their novelty and i'll sing along with a problem, at some poitn, but for now :lol
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I'm going to review this album with food metaphors.
Some of the songs are mediocre sandwiches. The Count of Tuscany is a mediocre sandwich with the mediocre spread really thin in the middle, but with luscious, fresh baked loaves of delicious bread. The Best of Times has the mediocre spread a lot thicker, so that it sort of overwhelms the delicious bread taste.
Some songs are good sandwiches dipped in Mediocre au jus. A Nightmare to Remember starts off really strong, and gets even better as you reach the middle of the sandwich, but then you reach the Mediocre sauce at about 8:30 and it only gets stronger as it moves towards the end. The Shattered Fortress starts OK, remains OK until you hit that mediocre taste towards the end.
And some songs are jelly beans. They're short, sort of sweet, but really fail to distinguish themselves either way. Wither and a Rite of Passage fall into this category.
Overall, a decent album, but it can be difficult to listen to some songs because they tend to get dragged down one way or another. However, definitely some brilliant parts, and one brilliant song in the Count.
3/5
That's going to be your thing from now on. I don't even give a shit what you say.
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SUCKING ON HIS PIPE
pure brilliance. and I'm not even kidding. That shit is fucking hilarious.
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The only problem I have with the album is The Count of Tuscany's lyrics. Overall, a MUCH better album than SC :metal
4 thumbs up :neverusethis:
i have to agree, i've never really had an opinion about dt's lyrics until this album. i've never had a problem with their lyrics, becasue even with their weaker efforts, i could sing along without a problem. but, i have to say that the lyrics to TCoT are actually very distracting to me. when i first heard the lyrics i could not sing along without laughing. i guess thats changing, i really love the chorus, i think its really strong, one of the best i know of to sing along to ("I...want to stay alIVE..) but the lyrics, imo, are just not good. oh well, im sure they will lose their novelty and i'll sing along with a problem, at some poitn, but for now :lol
YES. I love the chorus
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I'm going to review this album with food metaphors.
Some of the songs are mediocre sandwiches. The Count of Tuscany is a mediocre sandwich with the mediocre spread really thin in the middle, but with luscious, fresh baked loaves of delicious bread. The Best of Times has the mediocre spread a lot thicker, so that it sort of overwhelms the delicious bread taste.
Some songs are good sandwiches dipped in Mediocre au jus. A Nightmare to Remember starts off really strong, and gets even better as you reach the middle of the sandwich, but then you reach the Mediocre sauce at about 8:30 and it only gets stronger as it moves towards the end. The Shattered Fortress starts OK, remains OK until you hit that mediocre taste towards the end.
And some songs are jelly beans. They're short, sort of sweet, but really fail to distinguish themselves either way. Wither and a Rite of Passage fall into this category.
Overall, a decent album, but it can be difficult to listen to some songs because they tend to get dragged down one way or another. However, definitely some brilliant parts, and one brilliant song in the Count.
3/5
That's going to be your thing from now on. I don't even give a shit what you say.
This. I won't read another post by him that's not in food metaphors.
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Up there with the best. What was annoying with DT recently is that they always had those pretty bad songs in each of their last releases. On this album I consider every song as great.
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I'm going to review this album with food metaphors.
Some of the songs are mediocre sandwiches. The Count of Tuscany is a mediocre sandwich with the mediocre spread really thin in the middle, but with luscious, fresh baked loaves of delicious bread. The Best of Times has the mediocre spread a lot thicker, so that it sort of overwhelms the delicious bread taste.
Some songs are good sandwiches dipped in Mediocre au jus. A Nightmare to Remember starts off really strong, and gets even better as you reach the middle of the sandwich, but then you reach the Mediocre sauce at about 8:30 and it only gets stronger as it moves towards the end. The Shattered Fortress starts OK, remains OK until you hit that mediocre taste towards the end.
And some songs are jelly beans. They're short, sort of sweet, but really fail to distinguish themselves either way. Wither and a Rite of Passage fall into this category.
Overall, a decent album, but it can be difficult to listen to some songs because they tend to get dragged down one way or another. However, definitely some brilliant parts, and one brilliant song in the Count.
3/5
:clap:
The greatest post ever? I think so.
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Well, no.
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My verdict:
A Nightmare to Remember - 4.5/5 - Very, very good opening song with some brilliant time signatures. My only gripe is that it's atleast 1 or 2 minutes too long, especially at the climax. Gotta love the clean section with LaBrie!
A Right of Passage - 3.5/5 - Worst song on the album, but still a good song. Definitely better than Constant Motion. Nice solos by JP and JR.
Wither - 4/5 - Great little single. Nothing more, nothing less.
The Shattered Fortress - 4/5 - Brings back fond memories of the other songs and introduces some nice guitar work and drumming. Very good song and 2nd best from the 4 previous AA songs. (The Glass Prison is better)
The Best of Times - 4/5 - Again, a couple of minutes too long but a brilliant song. I find the lyrics are a bit too simple and cheesy, but given the emotional involvement of this song, it's not fair to critique too much.
The Count of Tuscanny - 5/5 - Best song on the album, one of the best epics DT have done. Although, it has to be said, the lyrics are completely ridiculous and cheesy. The ending to this song will remain a favourite of mine for years to come, i'm sure. Some awesome drumming by Portnoy and that final guitar solo! Top stuff.
Overall 4.25/5 - Best album since Six Degrees.
Final Standings:
Scenes From A Memory
Images and Words
Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
Black Clouds and Silver Linings
Awake
Train of Thought
Octavarium
Systematic Chaos
Falling Into Infinity
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Up there with the best. What was annoying with DT recently is that they always had those pretty bad songs in each of their last releases. On this album I consider every song as great.
Agree with that. I think it's the most consistant album since Scenes.
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Nightmare to Remember - When I first listened to it, I thought it was awful. I was devastated and thought the DT might have made something worse than SC, but I was very wrong. This is fast becoming a top 20 DT song for me.
Rite of Passage - Very average. Good parts, but overall doesn't hold it's own.
Wither - Should have been the first single. Sounds like the band wanted a rest from all the wankery, and I don't blame them. Can't wait to see this one live.
Shattered Fortress - I quite like the way they have mixed previous songs in. Granted, there are a few sections that don't quite fit, but I do enjoy it.
The Best of Time - Awful. Can't stand this song. Lyrics make me want to punch the CD.
The Count of Tuscany - Possibly my favourite song on the album. I don't find the lyrics cheesy, but then I have been getting in to fantasy lyrics a lot recently. After the mellow bit the song reminds me of an opera. Don't quite know why, but the way JLB sings in the ending is just... :metal
Oh, and there is a guitar part that reminds me of Rush A LOT at the start. Anyone else find this?
1:4/5
2:3/5
3:3.5/5
4:3.5/5
5:2/5
6:5/5
Overall it's a 4/5 i think.
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Nightmare to Remember - When I first listened to it, I thought it was awful. I was devastated and thought the DT might have made something worse than SC, but I was very wrong. This is fast becoming a top 20 DT song for me.
Rite of Passage - Very average. Good parts, but overall doesn't hold it's own.
Wither - Should have been the first single. Sounds like the band wanted a rest from all the wankery, and I don't blame them. Can't wait to see this one live.
Shattered Fortress - I quite like the way they have mixed previous songs in. Granted, there are a few sections that don't quite fit, but I do enjoy it.
The Best of Time - Awful. Can't stand this song. Lyrics make me want to punch the CD.
The Count of Tuscany - Possibly my favourite song on the album. I don't find the lyrics cheesy, but then I have been getting in to fantasy lyrics a lot recently. After the mellow bit the song reminds me of an opera. Don't quite know why, but the way JLB sings in the ending is just... :metal
Oh, and there is a guitar part that reminds me of Rush A LOT at the start. Anyone else find this?
1:4/5
2:3/5
3:3.5/5
4:3.5/5
5:2/5
6:5/5
Overall it's a 4/5 i think.
How can you say that? You can't hate those lyrics that much. It's a beautiful "letter" (sort of) written to his father. It's pretty simple written, but it's still beautiful. I don't see any reason why you could hate it.
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"It's up there with the best of them"
I think the songwriting & the harmonies are the best things on BC&SL.
I also agree that it's their best work since 6DOIT.
my top fav. DT albums:
1-Awake
2-I&W
3-6DOIT
4-BC&SL
....
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My verdict:
Wither - 4/5 - Great little single. Nothing more, nothing less.
i would give wither more credit. for what it is, it's perfect. i mean i agree with what you said, but i think the execution of the "great little single" style here is unmatched.
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A Nightmare to Remember: 8/10 :metal
A Rite of Passage: 7/10
Wither: 5/10 :|
A Shattered Fortress: 6/10
The Best of Time: 5,5/10
The Count of Tuscany: 9,5/10 :hefdaddy
Overall: 7,5/10 :tup
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My verdict:
Wither - 4/5 - Great little single. Nothing more, nothing less.
i would give wither more credit. for what it is, it's perfect. i mean i agree with what you said, but i think the execution of the "great little single" style here is unmatched.
Totally agree. In its style, it couldn't be better. It really does the job like Another Day in I&W.
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Their most consistent album since SFAM I'd say.
Lots of chills moments, In ever song there is at least one chills moment :tup ANTR is awesome, as is Wither, TBOT and TCOT. Rite of passage and Shattered fortress are also very good. I enjoy this album very much!
Best parts of each song:
1. The breakdown section and the chorus(peaceful seduation)
2. CHORUS
3. breakdown/solo/chorus
4. Look in the mirror section. BAD ASS ! ! !
5. The last 4-5mins. Beyond epic
6. First and last 5 mins. EPIC!!!!!!!!!!
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I'm writing a review right now, and I hope to have it finished by tomorrow. Anyway, by general consesus is:
1) A Nightmare to Remember. - Very strong opening track, insane double bass action and John Petrucci guitarwork. Great vocals by James LaBrie and wonderful middle section. The song gets a little bland afterwards, but it takes strength again in the final chorus. I'm not bothered by the MP vocal section at all, because the chords behind it are so incredible evil it's just awesome. Great ending, Great song. 9/10
2) A Rite of Passage. - Solid song. Great riffage, well-used vocal efects, catchy chorus and a memorable guitar solo. It's low points are quickly covered by its high points and it's definitely a great sing-along tune. One of albums's worsts, for sure. 8/10
3) Wither. - Amazing little song. Memorable melodies, powerful vocals and lots of arena vibe. I can imagine myself with thousands of fans chanting the words for the chorus. The little piano break with James LaBrie harmonizing himself is very soothing, amazing to hear him sing that low. 9/10
4) The Shattered Fortress. - EPIC. One of the main things that are said against this song is "Just lots of old ideas put together". Well, that's normally how endings work. The ending to 6DOIT takes themes from the whole song and reprises them, and such. Some very vicious and evil James LaBrie vocals that take me back to Awake and guitar riffing throughout. Powerful groove that plays behind the long keyboard solo before an amazing mellow section and TROAE reprised chorus. The ending is magnificient, it made me have chills going down my spine. 9/10
5) The Best of Times . - Great mood, great melodies and overall happy atmosphere. This is one of the songs DT's late discography had been missing. A classic DT tune with an uplifting atmosphere that takes me back in times to Images and Words. The lyrics are simple and straightforward, but supported with strong melodies and James LaBrie's great, as usual, delivery. The guitar solo at the end is probably one of JP's best solos ever. cheers 8.5/10
6) The Count of Tuscany. - A beast, the album's best song and one of modern DT's best songs. Musically, this song is bliss. Awesome chord progressions, exciting song structure and blazing guitar work. Yes, the lyrics are corny, but I dig them. They tell a story and they show how JP was afraid of this story. Sure, they could have been miles better, but in first place I don't listen to DT for the lyrical content. The guitar work behind the SUCKING ON HIS PIPE part is cool and the chorus got stuck in my head really quickly. One of DT's best album endings, overall. 9.5/10
Overall: 8.5/10 -------> 9/10
Great album, and their best since 6DOIT.
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It's up with the best of them.
ANTR : I enjoy this song a lot, the slow section at the middle of the song is the best part of the song IMO, and I LOVE the continuum work by Rudess.
AROP : Good single, very catchy chorus. Good song overall
Wither : This one might be the best short song they've written behing Lifting Shadows off a Dream. Very catchy chorus, great guitar solo and great vocals by LaBrie.
TSF : This song is, IMO, the best of the album. I fucking like how they reused the part of the past songs of the 12 step suite, but they are even more powerful in this song. It's like putting all the best parts of the suite and making them even better. I have to say that Rudess solo his one of his best, if not his best.
TBOT : To be honest, I don't understand how people can't appreciate this song. It has everything; awesome vocals by LaBrie, awesome vocals by PORTNOY, very emotionnal lyrics, awesome keyboard work by Rudess and the best Petrucci solo. Everyone shines in this song.
TCOT : A perfect closer. I love Rudess work in the intro. The chorus IS THEIR BEST, it is catchy as hell. The Pink Floyd part at the middle of the song is stellar. Then we hit the last 5 minutes of the songs, which is the best part of the song. These 5 minutes are the perfect recapitulation of the album : everyone shining at what they do, better than ever.
This album is one of Rudess' best. Exept maybe the Bebot solo in AROP, everything he does on the album is truly amazing. I also have to say that this album contains most of the best chorus they've ever written.
4,8/5
1. SDOIT
2. I&W
3. BC&SL
4. SFaM
5. Awake
6. Octavarium
7. Systematic Chaos
8. Train of Thought
9. WDADU
10. Falling Into Infinity
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Wait, we're allowed to talk about it now? Sweet!
Track-by-track:
ANTR: I see myself enjoying this song, and the mellow part at 4/5 minutes into the song is amazingly beautiful, but the instrumental section that follows is kind of boring. What's with the growling from Mike to deliver good news? The continuum outro is awesome though. DT have had better openers. The worst song on the album.
AROP: Really good single. Nothing I dislike about it. I even like the bebot solo.
Wither: Probably DT's best ballad. Nothing bad I can say about this. Intro is a little reminiscent of "One" but I don't mind much.
The Shattered Fortress: :metal :metal :metal :metal :metal is all I have to say. James' "Fly and be FREEEEE" gave me chills the first time I heard it. My second favorite on the album. To all those who say it doesn't stand up on its own without the rest of the AA suite: you're wrong. Perfect ending to the saga.
The Best of Times: I love me some Rush influence in a song. I also love great piano work from Rudess, great vocals from LaBrie, and this is a song that, along with Tenement Funster Suite, shows that Mike Portnoy is improving behind the mic. Now if he could just stop those growling/rapping bits. LOVE JP's solo at the end.
TCOT: I was pretty scared the next big epic would be a sort of generic cookie-cutter DT epic, a trend I thought I saw the beginning of in ITPOE. Thank god the band proved me wrong. I love the Steve Hackett beginning, the chorus (which I have to agree with Nic35, it is one of the best they've written), the Trial of Tears mood, and then the epic ending. Some LOTS of lolworthy lyrics (SUCKING ON HIS PIPE! DISTINGUISHED ACCENT!) but that doesn't take away from the song, although I can't help bursting into laughter sometimes.
The verdict: It's up with the best of them. I think it might knock Octavarium off the #4 spot its comfortably rested on since 2006 (behind Scenes, Images, and 6DoiT). Hell, it might even beat out Scenes if Scenes doesn't lock its door at night (look what happened to Nicholas). 4/5 Notice that I felt more or less the same way about SC, and I never listened to that album anymore, but I don't think I gushed as much about SC as I am with BC&SL.
Song rankings:
1. The Count of Tuscany
2. The Shattered Fortress
3. The Best of Times
4. Wither
5. A Rite of Passage
6. A Nightmare to Remember
Album rankings:
1. Images & Words
2. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
3. Scenes From a Memory
4. Octavarium
5. Black Clouds & Silver Linings
6. Falling Into Infinity
7. Awake
8. When Day and Dream Unite
9. Train of Thought
10. Systematic Chaos
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Song-by-song review I wrote a week ago after hearing the leak....
1. A Nightmare to Remember – This is a very well-crafted piece of music that sets a dark mood, reflecting its lyrics. Overall, the piece is devoid of the elements that DT fans have been complaining about over the past few albums: bizarre solos, cut-and-paste forms, “wanking,” and lack of feeling in favor of technicality. It reminds me very much of the Dream Theater-of-old-mentality mixed with the now well-defined JR-era sound. Themes presented develop very nicely throughout. The acoustic guitar break is a drastic change in mood, very Opeth-esque. Right away, this ain’t no Systematic Chaos Part II.
2. A Rite of Passage – The first single. I dig this song, but I also dug “Constant Motion” when I first heard it… It’s a radio-friendly tune with a catchy riff, including the only instance of “wanking” solos on the record. The music video edit is superior because it cuts out lots of the guitar and (ESPECIALLY) keyboard solos. SC was full of songs like this, and it was a sub-par album. Consequently, this is a sub-par DT song (albeit enjoyable).
3. Wither – The shortest song on the album and possibly the simplest song DT has ever produced (yes, moreso than “I Walk Beside You”!!!). Believe it or not, every chord in this tune is diatonic. It has a beautiful melody and a strikingly simple chord progression, much like a power ballad but not so hair-metal. It’s a beautiful song that made me smile. Certainly a keeper.
4. The Shattered Fortress – After seven years and five albums, we finally get to hear the conclusion of Mike Portnoy’s “12-Step Suite,” and the wait was well worth it. I have listened to this piece both in the context of the album AND as a part of the suite. My only complaint is that there is very little that makes this song stand on its own apart from the suite. The riff that fades up from the beginning is the closest thing to a new theme… everything else is explicitly a development or recap from earlier in the saga. These elements of reprise seem to occur randomly and without any pattern. In short, it works well as a coda to the suite, but not so well on its own. Regardless, the developments we hear are an exciting and a fitting conclusion to this epic work. It is also the heaviest selection on the record, much like “The Glass Prison” was to Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence.
5. The Best of Times – What a stunning tribute to the late Howard Portnoy!! The piece accomplishes what “The Ministry of Lost Souls” and (arguably) “Sacrificed Sons” could not: there, beautiful pieces of music were interrupted/destroyed by contrasting, unrelated solo sections. Here, the beauty of the music shines from beginning to end... musically it is both happy and sorrowful at the same time… the guitar solo at the end is quite possibly John Petrucci’s finest moment. Moving lyrics depict the memory of a loving father, and the music perfectly compliments them. Upon first listen, this is my favorite track on the album.
6. The Count of Tuscany – As predicted, this piece was difficult for me to digest from only one listen. I can tell you, though, that like most great prog epics, “The Count of Tuscany” explores many different moods and proceeds through its sections seamlessly, without abrupt transitions. Give it some listens yourself and digest it… is it up to the level of “A Change of Seasons” and “Octavarium”?? Time will tell.
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I bought the 3cd set, and I thought I'd get the isolated intruments but that's only for the box set? I was looking foward to that, but maybe I can find it somewhere soon? :)
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I love BC&SL so much I want to take it behind the middle school and get it pregnant.
Slow down there Dave Letterman! ;) I'm getting it tommorow. I'm Dying!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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I find it funny and ironic that TCOT was constantly ridiculed since the title was revealed, but is now getting such almost unanimous high praise now that people have actually heard it.
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I know. It's awesome.
DISTINGUISHED ACCENT.
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I bought the 3cd set, and I thought I'd get the isolated intruments but that's only for the box set? I was looking foward to that, but maybe I can find it somewhere soon? :)
To be honest, I thought the normal set was only going to give us the album and nothing else so I'm actually quite happy to have got the other two discs lawl.
I know. It's awesome.
DISTINGUISHED ACCENT.
MAKING ME UPTIGHT
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I find it funny and ironic that TCOT was constantly ridiculed since the title was revealed, but is now getting such almost unanimous high praise now that people have actually heard it.
It is. 5/8 ridiculed it at most, and by the time they heard the song they were all like :o
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I think Black Clouds is their strongest and most consistent album since Six Degrees (which is my favorite DT record in general).
I think that some of the standard conventions they use in their music are getting a bit tired, mainly the JR-JP-trading-solos phenomenon, but I must admit that JP's solos here are still quite outstanding.
I think that the songwriting is excellent and quite inspired. Each song has something about it that makes me sit up and pay attention, and that's a good thing.
I think The Count Of Tuscany lives up to the hype. The lyrics are lol, of course, but in spite of that..... nay, because of that (among other things), the song is simply amazing from start to finish and easily ranks up there with Learning To Live, Octavarium, Trial Of Tears and the like.
However, I do also think that the strongest moments on the album are the ones where they're not trying to be a metal band. It's not that they're bad at it, quite the opposite. It's just that they're so much better at playing in the progressive/classic rock vein, it's not even funny.
Overall grade: A-
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I love the ambient section in TCoT, so relaxing, they should do more stuff like that, and the following section is just amazing; Now waiiit a minute maan!
I love the whole album, ANTR, TBoT, Wither and TCoT are personal highlights (most of the album :laugh:) but the other two songs are still great, James sounds so evil and awesome on parts of The Shattered Fortress.
Speaking of which, am I the only one who thinks this album is James' best DT studio album performance since Six Degrees?
A RARE VINTAGE! ALL THE BEST WINES, IMPROVE WITH AGE! :metal br00talz! :biggrin:
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If someone came up to me and said "Get into my car, let's go for a ride", I would probably think he was a rapist.
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I find it funny and ironic that TCOT was constantly ridiculed since the title was revealed, but is now getting such almost unanimous high praise now that people have actually heard it.
Because Dream Theater have written a lolworthy song that kicks ass WHILE not taking itself TOO seriously. Seriously, The Count of Tuscany is like Dream Theater fanservice for the internet.
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LOOK IN THE MIRROR!!! WHAT DO YOU SEE? THE SHATTERED FORTRESS!!
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FLY NOW BE FREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!
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FLY NOW BE FREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!
I actually had to listen to this part twice to check whether it was real. Awesome JLB moment.
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Totally. I really can't wait to hear it live.
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Wow, I'm pretty shocked by the reception for this. Most notably, Best of Times and Count of Tuscany, as I rate the former one of their best and the latter one of their worst.
Still, solid albums. Wither makes me wish they did more songs under 10 minutes.
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Check out The Count Of Tuscany @ 2:36: One of my favourite JR moments ever. Amazing lead. :tup
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Since there seems to be a good number of people less than enthusiastic about some of the lyrics on this record, I wonder if some people will end up liking the instrumental CD more than the "regular" one?
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I don't think so. While some of the lyrics are bad, the vocal melodies are mostly strong throughout. These songs weren't written to be instrumentals; I don't see how anyone could prefer them as such.
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Since there seems to be a good number of people less than enthusiastic about some of the lyrics on this record, I wonder if some people will end up liking the instrumental CD more than the "regular" one?
And miss out on those harmonies?!
The lyrics aren't too bad overall. The main one I am hearing complaints about is TCOT. The rest is no different than I hear about any other recent DT album overall. If people can manage the last few DT album's lyrics, then they won't have a problem with these.
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I think some of the TCOT lyrics are rather totally hilarious than awful. Yes, they are simplistic, but they're also fun and better than some whiny, pretentious lyrics à la Feel So Low.
Btw, Wither contains very good lyrics imo.
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I think some of the TCOT lyrics are rather totally hilarious than awful. Yes, they are simplistic, but they're also fun and better than some whiny, pretentious lyrics à la Feel So Low.
Btw, Wither contains very good lyrics imo.
Like reflections on the page, the worlds that you create... *Awesome keyboard pad*
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That leads into an interesting (maybe) question or two: Does an instumental actually have to be written as one to "work"? Also, assuming that the average DT fan will probably listen to the main CD for a little while, where does the intrumental and cover CD fit in? How long do you think it will be before those get multiple listens?
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I think some of the TCOT lyrics are rather totally hilarious than awful. Yes, they are simplistic, but they're also fun and better than some whiny, pretentious lyrics à la Feel So Low.
Btw, Wither contains very good lyrics imo.
Like reflections on the page, the worlds that you create... *Awesome keyboard pad*
THAT PART IS SO FUCKING GOOD.
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Awake
I&W
FII
SFaM/BCSL
SDOIT/SC
8vm
WDADU
ToT
DT did good with this one.
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My Turn
Falling Into Infinity
Awake
Images & Words
Scenes From A Memory
Black Clouds & Silver Linings
Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
Octavarium
Train of Thought
When Dream And Day Unite
Systematic Chaos
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Images & Words
Scenes From A Memory
Six Degrees Of Inner Turbulence
Black Clouds & Silver Linings
Octavarium
Train Of Thought
Awake
Falling Into Infinity
Systematic Chaos
When Dream And Day Unite
So right now it's in my Top 5.
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I think some of the TCOT lyrics are rather totally hilarious than awful. Yes, they are simplistic, but they're also fun and better than some whiny, pretentious lyrics à la Feel So Low.
Btw, Wither contains very good lyrics imo.
Completely agreed on all counts (pun not intended!). The lyrics to TCOT are a bit of silly fun, just like a lot of the old prog bands used to do, and it works surprisingly well. And I think the lyrics to Wither are really good and open, plus the way James sings them is just beautiful.
I voted that this album is up there with the best of them. I was pleased that it arrived in the post today :D I'll admit I heard the leak twice through a few weeks ago, but then I deleted it and haven't listened since. I liked the album a LOT on those listens, but listening through again now it's actually even better, and I'd go so far as to say I love it. It just edges out FII into my number 4 spot.
1: Six Degrees
2: Images & Words
3: Awake
4: BC&SL
5: Falling Into Infinity
6: Train of Thought
7: Systematic Chaos/Octavarium (tied)
9: SFAM
10: WDADU
I'll post a track by track review once I've finished listening through.
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TELL THEM ABOUT NICK, TELL THEM ABOUT BRIANG, THE COUNT OF TUSCANIAIIIIIINNNNNN!!!!!
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:lol
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I'll do a short overview for now, and maybe a more in depth review later.
A Nightmare To Remember - A solid album opener. The start is awesome, and the middle section is amazing. The end goes on a bit long, and of course there's the Portnoy growl, but it's still quite good.
A Rite of Passage - I liked it when I first heard it, then I liked it a bit less, and then it grew on me, and I like it quite a bit now. It's going to be a fantastic live song. Good overall song, great chorus, and the instrumental break is mostly well done.
Wither - An absolutely beautiful song, packed with emotion and power. Simply fantastic.
The Shattered Fortress - Someone who hadn't heard the other 12 Step songs will probably find the structure very strange, but I find that for those of us who've been following the saga, it's a treat to listen to. The callback to older riffs and lyrics with a new spin added to them was so cool to listen to. A great song overall.
The Best of Times - A good song, and very moving at times. Not my favorite song on the album, but I like it.
The Count of Tuscany - I love this song. Even though some of the lyrics are a bit silly, it works. Great melodies, and the final section or two are epic and amazing. It works perfectly as an album closer.
Overall - At least their best album since Six Degrees. Time will tell if it will end up passing Six Degrees on my list. For the most part, they're able to do amazing, technical playing while keeping it reserved and tasteful. The awesome instrumental parts serve the songs. The guys all do some cool instrumental stuff, and JLB sounds absolutely fantastic.
9/10
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Wow, the album does end rather incredibly.
By the way, what does everyone think of the booklet artwork? I really love the stuff they have come up with. The front cover is decent, but the stuff inside is just great, especially for The Shattered Fortress, and also the goldfish pic on the inside of the first page.
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Awesome album !
- I was blowned away by ANTR intro, totally new for DT and it sounded so bad-ass.
- I can say that it's the first album since I&W and SFAM that has no weak track.
- Once again the album theme is well integrated inside the opening and closing tracks (Thunder at beggining and small birds at the end, really cool choice for Black Clouds & Silver Linings)
- The intro to TCOT is one of the best things they've done since ITPOE Part. 1
- TBOT really sound like Rush's "The Spirit of Radio"
- TSF had me head-banging, really closes the Suite well ! :metal
On the other hand, i don't like the fact that Petrucci introduced "The Count of Tuscany" right at the beggining of the song, it kinda spoiled the lyrical experience. :\
8,5/10
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DT's best album since Six Degrees. Time will tell if it ousts FII and SFAM for the number four spot, behind I&W, Awake, and 6DOIT. Every song has grown on me thus far.
It seems pretty clear to me that the lyrics to The Count of Tuscany are at least a bit tongue-in-cheek. It's interesting in the way it contrasts DT's other giant epic songs in that respect. Not only that, but maybe the sometimes ridiculous lyrics are supposed to reflect the absurdity of the whole experience in hindsight. At any rate, LaBrie somehow successfully injects so much emotion into the last few minutes, almost making me forget about the weird lyrics from the first half of the song. Crazy lyrics or no, I am genuinely impressed; this song is one of the best of DT's career. It will be hard to top on their next album.
The Best of Times's lyrics are obviously sincere, but definitely could use some work in places. I think they would have benefitted from a bit more time "in the oven", but they're not unbearable.
With the possible exception of The Best of Times, where he sounds a little weak, LaBrie dominates this album. The other guys deliver standout performances too, but LaBrie was lacking on Systematic Chaos for whatever reason, and he is definitely back on his game.
-J
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In peacefull sedation I lay half awake :heart.
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It's funny how pretty much everyone has slotted BC&SL in at number 4.
:metal
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With the possible exception of The Best of Times, where he sounds a little weak, LaBrie dominates this album. The other guys deliver standout performances too, but LaBrie was lacking on Systematic Chaos for whatever reason, and he is definitely back on his game.
I disagree that he sounds weak on TBOT, I think his singing was intentionally subtle and heartfelt, which, to me gives the song more genuine emotion that if it was sung with over the top emotion like the end of TCOT.
I think it's a wonderfully heartfelt song, and while the lyrics are simple, they are a perfect expression of MP's feelings about his father.
EDIT: Oh, but I DO agree that James is absolutely awesome on this album. FLY NOW BE FREEEEE!
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- TBOT really sound like Rush's "The Spirit of Radio"
I've heard a lot of people say that, and I can sorta hear it, but only briefly. And thankfully, I have not detected any other parts which sounded lifted or borrowed from other bands, which is great, as I think they had gotten really bad about letting parts from songs by bands they like creep into their songs.
The Best of Times's lyrics are obviously sincere, but definitely could use some work in places. I think they would have benefitted from a bit more time "in the oven", but they're not unbearable.
I would agree with that. Some of them are really good, and some sound like something a 5th grader would have written. :lol
With the possible exception of The Best of Times, where he sounds a little weak, LaBrie dominates this album. The other guys deliver standout performances too, but LaBrie was lacking on Systematic Chaos for whatever reason, and he is definitely back on his game.
In all fairness to JLB, the vocal melodies he was handed to sing for the new album are a massive upgrade over the ones he was handed to sing for SC.
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This album is totally amazing, and I really love it! The Count of Tuscany is my new favorite song, and there really are no bad moments on this CD at all. I wasn't going to go see Dream Theater live this year, but this album has nearly convinced me to go.
A ranking at this moment for me would be something like:
Scenes From a Memory
Black Clouds & Silver Linings
Images and Words
Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
Octavarium
Falling Into Infinity
Systematic Chaos
Train of Thought
When Dream and Day Unite
Awake
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I'm not gonna do a song by song review because in time I'm sure we'll dicuss each of these songs to death in their own threads. I'll just say that this album slays, easily the best they've done in a while. Props go out in particular to JLB for absolutely killing it on this album and also JP. Petrucci's playing is usually what I love the most about DT songs, but he brings it up to a whole new level on this album. The riffs are :metal as hell and the solos are top notch (the last 3 minutes of TBOT... does it get much better than that? Didn't think so). The band as a whole is a bit more.... restrained than on SC and it definitely pays dividends. Specifically, Wither as a whole (although I do feel like the guitar solo could have gone on a little bit longer) and the final section of TCOT. The little melody that Rudess comes in with over the acoustic guitar is so simple yet so perfect for the song :tup
I can never rank the albums in a specific order, but I do like to break them out into tiers:
Tier 1 (The Trinity)
Images and Words
Awake
Scenes From A Memory
Tier 2 (Still stunningly brilliant, but just a notch below the best)
Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
Black Clouds and Silver Linings
Falling Into Infinity is kind of out here on it's own because some of the album is incredible, while I never ever want to listen to the rest
Tier 3 (Occasionally I spin a song or two, but that's about it)
Train of Thought
Octavarium
Tier 4 (I never bother with these)
When Dream and Day Unite
Systematic Chaos
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It's up there - it's certainly a strong album. My initial reaction wasn't as strong as it was with SC, but I think it will age much better than SC did.
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8/10.
Songs in order of greatness:
A Nightmare To Remember
The Count Of Tuscany
The Best Of Times
A Rite Of Passage
The Shattered Fortress
Wither
I can't say that this is better than say I&W or 6DOIT, but an arguement can be made for the others. It's a huge upgrade over SC.
The one big problem I see with this album is that it really doesn't add anything new. The other albums seem to have always had something new, while this is, for all intents and purposes, a trip back to ther 90s/early 00s. At least that's my opinion.
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I've been listening to the album for a while now, but I must say it didn't age well. The lyrics still stick out terribly at times ("thank you for ... MY LIFE!", or "DID THEY EVER SEE THE RED LIGHT?! HWAAAAA!!"), and the music (which overall is better than on SC) can't make uo for it. A good effort, but a bit "DT paint by numbers".
rumborak
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I was taken by surprise, to say the least; it blew my expectations out of the water. However, I still chose "It's good" on a count of I haven't had much time with the album as a whole. But right now it's nearing somewhere between "it's good" and "it's up with the best of them", and there it will likely stay. I will say that there isn't a single song that I even think about skipping, and that is very rare for me, especially with recent DT albums, so that is a definitely plus. Cohesion is a huge factor for me when listening to albums, so that might bump this one up to the 3 spot. I'm sure I'll have thoughts on single songs as we discuss them. Overall I'm very happy with this album, the best that DT has released in years.
The ranks:
Images and Words
Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
Awake
Black Clouds & Silver Linings
Scenes From a Memory
Octavarium
When Dream and Day Unite
Falling Into Infinity
Systematic Chaos
Train of Thought
I was really blown away with how much I like Wither, by the bye. It might be my second favorite. JL sings it with such conviction, it makes the song soar.
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The Rush-y part in TBOT starts out like Spirit Of Radio but morphs into something similar to Red Barchetta.
Which is awesome because Rush is awesome.
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This album is kicking my arse rather professionally. :tup
"IT'S A BLESSING NO-ONE DIED!
BY THE GRACE OF GOD ABOVE!
EVERYONE SURVIVED!
ROOOOOOOOOOOOOOAAAAAAAARRRRRR!!!"
:metalol:
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On my second listen now, and i'm feeling all tingly inside.
I know i was really hyped when i got 8vm and SC as well (TOT was the first new album i bought as a fan, and really didn't do anything for me at the time), but some of this songs gave me chills on my first listen, and the only new song that gave me chills before this was 8vm (title track)..
I'm so happy, relieved and in love with this album at the moment! I really didn't think i would like it, as SC was kind of a let down for me (i liked most of it when it came out, but i haven't really listened much to it since it came out..) , and the way MP has been talking about BC&SL never really seemed that exciting. So im really glad i listened to this album with no real expectations.
Short notices about each track:
1. A nightmare to remember: Love it! As some people have said before, it kind of drags on a bit, but it's still a perfect opener! The MP vocals and the "blastbeats" are kind of silly, but works. Top notch song! 9/10
2. A rite of passage: I've listened it to death, but when i listened to it again today it really works within the flow of the album. A really good single with a really strong single and a really good guitar-solo! 8/10 song for me
3. Wither: I heard it a couple of days ago on the Bruce Dickinson show, and it gave me chills! I love how it stays simple, calm and emotional all the way through. It will be a great single. James sounds terrific! 10/10
4. The shattered fortress: Not really sure if i like it or not yet. It was cool to hear some of those riffs and melodies again, and i loved how they ended with the glass prison-riff (with some dying soul/root of all evil-rythmstuff in the end). But it kind of felt a bit thrown together at my first listen. I must listen to it a couple of times before i say for sure if its super-cool or average.. For now it's 7/10. I liked it, but it left me a bit :-\
5. The best of times: Really enjoyed it. I went into this song knowing that the lyrics probably would be a bit awkward, but i knew it was a really personal song, so i tried to just listen to it and read the lyrics for what they are. I actually shed a tear in the end. I found the song really touching, emotional and beautiful. I imagined MP sitting at his fathers bed listening to this with him. It must have been a really powerful and emotional moment. Some things about the song could probably have been worked out better, but its a great song. Loved the intro and the JP-solo in the end! 9/10
6. The count of tuscany: This was the really big surprise. I really didn't think i would like it (just based on the title, and a review - i know, that's just silly of me), but this song kicked my ass! One of the best things they have done for years.. Better than Itpoe, up with 8vm and Acos. Can't wait to see this song live! (If they don't play it live i will personally hunt the band down, kidnap them and make them play it for me personally..). I don't care if the lyrics are cheesy. I knew they would be. But musically this really challenges some of the best things they have done! 10/10 - no doubt about it.
For now, it's a 9/10 album for me. I loved it. The best thing they've done since SFAM. Outstanding! :metal
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On Wednesday I will hear it! Cant wait for it! : D
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I know Mike didn't mean it but words like 'kindness' and 'courtesy' should never, ever be growled/toughened up vocally.
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An interesting thing I've noted: While the album was obviously produced by MP and JP, Paul Northfield has been credited, in addition to recording and mixing, as co-producing the vocal tracks. After all the discussion about getting an outside producer to help utilise JLB well, I found this pretty interesting.
I don't have my copy of SC on me, but is Northfield credited the same way on SC?
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"A Nightmare to Remember," "The Best of Times" and "The Count of Tuscany" are some of their best songs of the 00s.
"A Nightmare to Remember" is a fantastic song, with a great mellow middle section, some cool vocal melodies, and some seriously badass playing by John Petrucci throughout.
"The Best of Times" manages to be beautiful, melancholy and wistful all at the same time, and without being cheesy at all. JP's solo at the end is ridiculously great.
"The Count of Tuscany" is marvelous, despite the corny lyrics. Great intro, and when it picks up right before the first vocals, that is one of the best riffs they have written in a long time. Love, love, love the acoustic-driven vocal section near the end, and JLB's "woah"'s during the outro are just magnificent.
"Wither" is a wonderfully catchy song.
"A Rite of Passage" is good; good bridge and chorus. I sometimes lose interest once the second chorus is over, as I think the extended instrumental section isn't overly memorable, but still, good song overall.
"The Shattered Fortress" is easily my least favorite. I feel like too much of the song is taken from riffs and melodies from the previous AA songs (instead of it being a song with a few of them dotted here and there), and the new stuff isn't that great. Not a bad song by any means.
Overall, 4/5 stars. Not as great as the Big 3 (I&W, Awake, SFAM) or 6DOIT, but a massive upgrade over the previous three. If it ages well, I could see it being my 5th favorite DT record (although comparing it to FII will be tough, as FII's highs are higher, but its lows are also lower).
I think this is a great, accurate summary. I couldn't agree more about TSF. It just is not as well done, or flow as good as the other songs on the album. I felt like this is one of Jordan's best albums. I also kind of get a SFAM kind of feel from a lot of the riffs. It's so balanced, and I agree it's probably not AS good as their best albums..... but it's damn effing close.
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The Best of Time - Awful. Can't stand this song. Lyrics make me want to punch the CD.
Correction: that title goes to "The Count of Tuscany". Those are ridiculous. SUCKING ON HIS PIPE! DISTINGUISHED ACCENT!!!
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An interesting thing I've noted: While the album was obviously produced by MP and JP, Paul Northfield has been credited, in addition to recording and mixing, as co-producing the vocal tracks. After all the discussion about getting an outside producer to help utilise JLB well, I found this pretty interesting.
I don't have my copy of SC on me, but is Northfield credited the same way on SC?
He is indeed credited with co-producing the vocals on SC. I didn't think they'd continue this trend on this album, however. Either way, he's done more than a decent job thus far, more so on this album.
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Thanks for checking that for me TJ!
Yeah I find it interesting that people point to the vocals as an example of where DT could do with an outsider producer, which is what they have been doing for the last two albums now :lol
Either way, I thought they did a good job with SC but a GREAT job with BC&SL. It might well help, as Kev has said, that JLB has had better melodies to work with, but whatever the reason, he sounds great throughout this album.
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I think the cheesy lyrics of TCoT is what makes it that much more awesome.
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I think the cheesy lyrics of TCoT is what makes it that much more awesome.
SIG'D!
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One of the best and tied with SFAM for my favorite (we will see if that changes in the future, might just be because its new)
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I find it funny and ironic that TCOT was constantly ridiculed since the title was revealed, but is now getting such almost unanimous high praise now that people have actually heard it.
I honestly never saw the funny in the title, it was ridiculed as a cheap brand of internet comedy imo heh
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I think the cheesy lyrics of TCoT is what makes it that much more awesome.
SIG'D!
:O Awesomeness!
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I sure hope MP or JR (preferably MP with his whole input on the band) read the reactions to the album so far.
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I'm surprised ANTR is getting such high praises from most of the members. It starts off as an awesome opener going into the mellow part (IMO one of DT's greatest moments) but then just sort of goes into ITPOE mode, meaning boring instrumental section after an amazing section that could've made the song an all-time classic. Mike's growls don't fit at all with what the lyrics actually say, so its incredibly lolworthy (my roomate knows ANTR only because of Mike's growls). Now I really just listen to the beginning until the mellow part ends. What does everyone see in calling it one of the best tracks on the album?
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I love the part where instead of an option of "I really didnt like it" you said "Never Enough" trying to make the people sound like unappreciative jerks for not liking it...
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I'm surprised ANTR is getting such high praises from most of the members. It starts off as an awesome opener going into the mellow part (IMO one of DT's greatest moments) but then just sort of goes into ITPOE mode, meaning boring instrumental section after an amazing section that could've made the song an all-time classic. Mike's growls don't fit at all with what the lyrics actually say, so its incredibly lolworthy (my roomate knows ANTR only because of Mike's growls). Now I really just listen to the beginning until the mellow part ends. What does everyone see in calling it one of the best tracks on the album?
The drumming makes this song. There isn't a memorable solo from JP or JR, but it's proggy as hell.
I must admit, the clean section is some of the best DT have ever done, and I make the song as 2 minutes too long, but it's a great ride from start to finish. I've had BC&SL for a couple of months (yeah, I know) and trust me, this song grows on you.
4.5/5 for me.
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I've been listening to the album for a while now, but I must say it didn't age well. The lyrics still stick out terribly at times ("thank you for ... MY LIFE!", or "DID THEY EVER SEE THE RED LIGHT?! HWAAAAA!!"), and the music (which overall is better than on SC) can't make uo for it. A good effort, but a bit "DT paint by numbers".
rumborak
I don't think the growling part in ANTR is an issue of "not aging well". It was criticized pretty much as soon as people heard it.
What does everyone see in calling it one of the best tracks on the album?
As you yourself pointed out, the first 2/3 of the song is fucking awesome. Growls aside, the final third isn't bad either.
Also, there are only six songs on the album, and since they're at least pretty strong, all of them are going to get labeled as "one of the best tracks on the album" at some point.
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Im lovin this album so far and i think it is their best since six degrees
SFAM
SDOIT
I&W
Awake
BC&SL
ToT
FII
SC
OCT
WDADU
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So far Ima liking it BUT I dont think there needs to be hating of SC to enjoy this album. This is how I see it:
CoT = ITPOE1&2
ANtR < TMOLS
AROP < Forsaken (unlike others I really love forsaken)
Wither >> Repentance
Shattered Fortress = CM
BoT > the rest but barely as it hasnt grown on me yet. So yea this release is perhaps better than SC
I love all the covers too
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I think it's about equal to Systematic Chaos, if not a little better, which would put it at #7, for me. The only song I would consider one of their greats is TCoT. Also, I feel this is their worst album with respect to Petrucci solos.
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I think it's about equal to Systematic Chaos, if not a little better, which would put it at #7, for me. The only song I would consider one of their greats is TCoT. Also, I feel this is their worst album with respect to Petrucci solos.
Not Train of Thought or Six Degrees?
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I feel this is their worst album with respect to Petrucci solos.
Are you serious?
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Oddly enough, Petrucci's solos are one of the album's highlights. Not a weak solo to be found.
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John Petrucci might be a helluva guitarist, but his judgment regarding who to get into a car with really sucks ass.
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I would just like to say that the use of piano and acoustic guitar in prodigious amounts on this album is a fantastic thing.
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It's a good Dream Theater album. As far as the JR albums go, I'd rank it 2nd behind SFAM right now, but we'll see how it ages. ANTR is the only song I'd bill as "too long" but the rest of the usual DT problems persist. I'd give it a B-.
I don't think so. While some of the lyrics are bad, the vocal melodies are mostly strong throughout. These songs weren't written to be instrumentals; I don't see how anyone could prefer them as such.
They're strong, but James still isn't being utilized that well. He sounds way better on Stargazer and the Queen medley than he does on anything here.
I know Mike didn't mean it but words like 'kindness' and 'courtesy' should never, ever be growled/toughened up vocally.
"Inventory" and "Analysis" definitely need that extra punch though.
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I know Mike didn't mean it but words like 'kindness' and 'courtesy' should never, ever be growled/toughened up vocally.
"Inventory" and "Analysis" definitely need that extra punch though.
Instead of Mike growling, they should have just used Forever of the Stars to perform those parts.
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I think it's about equal to Systematic Chaos, if not a little better, which would put it at #7, for me. The only song I would consider one of their greats is TCoT. Also, I feel this is their worst album with respect to Petrucci solos.
Not Train of Thought or Six Degrees?
Not Train of Thought, and certainly not Six Degrees. Six degrees has three of my favorite solos on the first disc alone (The Glass Prison, Blind Faith, and The Great Debate).
Are you serious?
Quite.
Not a weak solo to be found.
I agree; however, I don't feel any of them are quite special, either, compared to his work on any previous album. My favorites are The Shattered Fortress solo and the solo near the end of The Count of Tuscany, and even then, I feel there are at least three solos from SC alone that are better than either of those two.
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I feel this is their worst album with respect to Petrucci solos.
Are you serious?
wow.
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Yeah, talking about guitar solos of that album, I really feel like they put more emphasis on vocals this time and less on guitar. Such as bands as Pain of Salvation, they use the guitar solos as a complement to the vocals while they used to do the opposite.
That said, James LaBrie is top shape, so this little change was greatly done. Also, JP's solos, while less important, are indeed all flawless and great. Considering that, I think they got the change pretty well; I'm impressed.
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John Petrucci might be a helluva guitarist, but his judgment regarding who to get into a car with really sucks ass.
That's sig worthy.
I think JP does an amazing job on this album. I think this album is more about being diverse and adding subtle things to make a song more complete. Not sure if that's a good way to describe it.
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I know Mike didn't mean it but words like 'kindness' and 'courtesy' should never, ever be growled/toughened up vocally.
So true. I don't mind MP's vocals like that (similar style to TGP, so I'm ok with it), but hearing tough vocals saying KINDNESS makes me chuckle a bit.
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So, now that we've heard the album, how apt does MP's earlier comparison of the songs to TGP, PMU, ACOS, 8VM and LTL now seem? (Assuming, of course, he meant it literally, which may not be the case. But it's less fun to talk about that way :p)
A Rite Of Passage - Clearly the Pull Me Under song, albeit differently structured
The Shattered Fortress - Well, any song that reprises as much of The Glass Prison as this one does.... Really aren't too many other choices
The Best Of Times - Same kind of vibe as Learning To Live. A 4/4 Learning To Live, but has the same upbeat-ness to it. Which is awesome.
The Count Of Tuscany - I guess Octavarium
Wither - No idea, and probably a good defense for the argument that MP didn't mean to be taken literally. But nevermind that.
A Nightmare To Remember - If this song is meant to be A Change Of Seasons.... I dunno. It definitely explores quite a bit of sonic territory, but not nearly to the extent that ACOS does obviously. ANTR also repeats itself quite a bit, to the point where you can literally pinpoint where the recycling begins. I mean, I like the song, but I'd compare it to like, Lines In The Sand meets The Dark Eternal Night, if anything.
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I'll start with this: I did not download the album or do anything illegal to hear it, but I have heard it. Unfortunately, this will be the first DT album that I will be be purchasing. I've listened to the songs multiple times just to be fair and I just can't get into them enough to justify spending money on it. I'm sure I'm going to get "flamed" for saying this, but it's my opinion and that's the point of this thread.
As for the album, I think it's better than SC, but that wasn't difficult. They couldn't have gotten any worse than that. I really like that the music isn't ALL Metal, chugga-chugga cookie monster stuff. I like the homages to their old style (Wither and The Best of Times, especially). I like that JP is toning down the shred and playing more melodically again. What I can't stand is the lyrics. I've listened to the songs a bunch of times and I just can't relate to any of these songs. They don't make me FEEL anything. The lyrics feel cold and contrived and not very genuine.
Anyway, I applaud DT for paying tribute to their old sound a bit, but I just can't bring myself to buy this album. It's just not good enough for me to listen to multiple times.
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Unfortunately, this will be the first DT album that I will be be purchasing.
Oh good :p
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I meant to say NOT purcashing and you know it, silly. :)
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SnakeEyes, it's $9.99 on Amazon if you only want the standard edition. Is ten dollars really more than you're willing to pay for it?
Also, on another note, as I type this, BC&SL is the 4th best selling album on Amazon.com
Edit: Up to #3!
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best album in a loooooong time. so freaking good. i was taken back at how awesome it was on the first listen. SC has nothing on it
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GREAT album, not a single weak song on it. It's entertaining and fun all the way through. It probably ranks as my 4th favorite DT album.
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Can't wait to be screaming " IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII WANNA STAY ALIVEEEEE !!!! " :metal
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It may take a few years to eject this CD from my car.
It's pretty meh.
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middle of 2nd listen and it is :hefdaddy :metal
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All I got from this thread;
BC&SL took much more steps foward than SC. Right?
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All I got from this thread;
BC&SL took much more steps foward than SC. Right?
Not only that- BC&SL has crossed the crooked step.
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its ok... a new music from that i crave for months to hear... satisfied... ;D ;D
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This has been in fierce competition for the top spot (of my favorite DT albums) with 6DOIT. And it keeps growing on me, so it may become my most favorite album of all time.
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I need to listen more, but I guess it's better than Systematic Chaos (pretty much by default). It's very, very "meh" for me so far, though. Lots of weak moments.
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Just listened to it for my first time, and I really dig it! The band just sounds so alive with ideas and melodies and I just love it. So glad I discovered this wonderful band in time to open my ears and mind to their music. :smiley: Can't wait for this to grow on me!
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Review up/ (https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=2386.0)
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I think it's a huge improvement in many respects. It keeps the metal stuff metal, but also brings the more melodic stuff forward. DT used to be a prog rock band with a metal edge, but they've slowly morphed into a metal band., and the melodic side of their music seems to have been sidelined somewhat. Also, the songwriting seems to have improved. I don't know whether they've gone back to writing songs and bringing them to the studio, or whether they've finally nailed this writing in the studio experiment of theirs. It also manages to do what all the best prog should do - introduce new elements and move things forward. Albums like I&W and Awake were a real revelation, and of late DT have sounded like they're resting on their laurels.
I won't talk about individual tracks, but ANTR gets better every time I listen to it, especially the "beautiful agony" section, Wither is a terrific inclusion that harks back to the days when DT would include a power ballad like LSFAD or Surrounded on an album.
Can't decide whether my favourite track is TBOT, which sounds like Rush meets Andrew Lloyd Webber, or TCOT with it's Yes-like middle section and that epic slow building finale.
Two slight criticisms - I think I can detect some "clipping" on the cymbals, although it might just be muddy mixing - this is the downside of owning a top-end stereo! The bass is nice and thumpy though.
Secondly, the 3-disc edition came in a very flimsy cardboard sleeve, that was a bit creased by the time I took it out of the envelope. I hate cardboard sleeves - Boo!
Stargazer and the Queen medley were the only 2 covers worth a second listen, IMO. Not listen tot he instrumentals yet.
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Well, I eventually got over the awesomeness of the collectors edition yesterday and put the album on and I must have to say, over the experience of SC I'm blown away. I always find it very hard to actually rank albums in any particular order, partly because I'm very picky and partly because everything has different highs and lows in different people eyes (or ears!) Still, it will certainly get more play time by me than SC, ToT, and the majority of 8v.
I don't quite dig "A Nightmare to Remember" yet; Not sure why but for some reason I can never settle down with it, it's probably the slightly weaker final section but it isn't really a complaint rather just highlights how good it is at the start.
"The Best of Times" is absolutely love and think that they totally nailed it. Yes, the lyrics were always going to be slightly awkward but we all know where this is coming from and I personally wish I had even half a tribute like that for my father. The solo at the end is off the scale and JLB is awesome throughout.
"Wither" love it, adore it, want little baby Withers.
"A Rite of Passage" obviously heard it quite a bit up until release so I find it a little more tired and worn in than the rest. It isn't a bad track by any stretch but I would personally rank it as the weakest on the album.
"The Shattered Fortress" is a difficult one. I was a little disappointed at first listen because I was expecting it to build and build and build to some unholy orgasmic finale which never really came. But on the other hand, having listened to it a few times now it has grown on me. The only thing is that some of the reprisals do feel a little forced and out of place but I think it's still a fitting end to the suite.
"The Count of Tuscany" is amazing and I'd be hard pressed to say anything that hasn't already been said. But the final section and the 'I don't want to die" bit are absolutely stunning.
Overall I think it's a great album; it is on endless random repeat on my Hi-Fi at the moment and I don't see that changing for a while. Just got to burn a disc for the car. Compared to other albums it is definitely around SDoIT, so take from that what you will.
Hopefully I can get my DVD drive working soon so I can play with the STEM tracks...grrr stupid mac!
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Its great reading these positive reviews, they really gets my hopes up for an awesome listening experience. Just 24 more hours :hat
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Wow. I really didn't know what to expect, but I was still anxious in my anticipation. This was the first DT album I've actually been waiting for as a fan. I think some of the parts are just incredible ;D. It has definitely grown on me.
1. ANtR: At first, I loved the intro but didn't like the vocals. Listened to the instrumental version many times, and liked the 'restrained' feel of it, as it was obviously not originally an instrumental. After many listens though, it has definitely grown on me. Killer intro! Love thunder (seems DT does too!), love eerie piano playing, love powerful dark chords, love that kind of double bass drumming, love that intro! And I love the softer section, one of the best parts of the album ;D. Love the jazzy keyboard in the background of this part (at 5:39 especially). Lyrics reminded me of Octavarium. At first, this bothered me, but now I like it, and I love the 'hopelessly drifting' part, amazing :hefdaddy. The solos are yet to do anything for me, though. I do however love 10:40 (is that a unison or just guitar?) until the MP bit. MP vocals part flows well, but is unsuitable I think. As for the roar, I'd prefer some death growls instead! Love the following instrumental section though. I think the blast beats are well suited, though at first I was a little stunned (the drumming in this song was a big surprise for me). Good outro.
This song has parts that I absolutely love, and parts that I don't like so much. Overall though, the former wins by far ;D
2. ARoP: It has grown on me since it was first released. I don't like the prechorus, but the rest of the vocals are good I think. Love the arpeggios or whatever JP is playing in the second verse, makes it for me. The transition to the instrumental section sounds overused (haven't heard it in a while, but it did remind me of Ytse Jam for some reason, though I love the Jam). I love the guitar solo now, though I didn't at first. Especially when the background playing is switched up. First part of the keyboard solo is quite good, first part of the bebot solo I don't mind; the second part I used to really hate, but now I don't mind it. The transition to the chorus is still jarring, but it's getting better with time. Good outro.
There are parts that I like, and others that aren't as good. Overall, it's alright. Doesn't touch the riffage in CM though :metal
3. Wither: This is the song I've heard the least, so far. At first it didn't really do anything for me. It still doesn't really, but it's better than some other similar DT songs. I've never been interested in these songs though. Great soft section and solo.
Not my type of song, though I don't mind it at all. Better than everything on the radio.
4. TSF: At first, I found this to be a little jumbled up, and just a compilation of riffs from the previous AA songs. Now I like this much than before. God I love the TDS guitar motif at 1:38. Lyrics here bothered me: "But now I have finally seen the light" "I've lived with serenity now, not self-righteous hate", sounded a bit mashed together for rhyming effect. The epic long JR solo didn't really do anything for me (unlike some of the others in the AA set), or at least, nothing yet. I'm still undecided on the softer section; the deep voice bothers me a bit, like it did in Repentance. The second half of guitar solo is just brilliant, and the section that follows ("I am responsible ...") is just awesome. Great use of the TDS motifs. I don't like the 'whoooaaawooo' bit, but the TGP outro is perfect as I'm sure everyone would agree.
A song which is growing on me. I love the final minutes, and the rest of the song is good too.
5. TBoT: At first, I couldn't stand it because of that overused chordal progression (don't know what it's from, but I'm not a fan). It's growing on me slowly, and I can almost get past that now. The sad/happy contrasting in the song was very fitting to the lyrical themes, I thought. But I just love the darker, ominous part at 5:46 ("But then came the call..."), if only for the first few seconds. Reminded me of Finally Free for a split second. My favourite part of the song (yes I'm obsessed with dark, minor-key music). The softer, acoustic/piano section is beautiful, and the lyrics are very fitting. Luckily, I can appreciate JP's solo despite the chords he's playing over. Great outro especially.
A beautiful song if you can get past that old chord progression, and even more so if you love that. I like the song.
6. TCoT: At first, I loved this song. Now I love it even more, and it's only grown on me over many listens. I can hardly fault it. At first, the lyrics bothered me (must be some badass historian!) but now I actually think that they're very good, in contrast to most opinions in this thread. Perhaps not always the particular prose, but the subject of the song doesn't bother me at all. JLB's singing does help, however. I especially love the intro, the keyboards at 2:37, almost all of JLB's vocals over the badass guitars and tasteful keyboard-work. I love the JLB+MP vocals. And the chorus! Best chorus on the album, and in a long time. Only possible issue is that it's very similar (with the big 'I') to Slipknot - Before I Forget, which was one of my favourite songs years ago, before my musical enlightenment began. Very cool, chill-out section, similar to the continuum intro in Octavarium but more relaxed. Love the use of the melody which will be used at the end. Beautiful acoustic section, however this is the one place I do actually have a small problem with the lyrics: "Is this the way I die?" "What did I do wrong? I just don't understand". I'm not sure if it's the way it's sung, or the lyrics themselves. And "I'll tell you once again". On the whole, it's not a big deal though, the music more than makes up for it if there really is an issue (or it's my imagination). Love the little guitar solo, and the 'whooa' section. Epic, fitting, and beautiful. Wonderful outro.
The best song on the album, and is up there with the best of the best DT songs. It's up there with ITNOG, Finally Free, and Octavarium, for the JR era of DT.
Wow that took a long time to write. I listened to the songs while writing about them. Now it's gone back to ANtR :metal
I'd give this a 4/5 I think, overall.
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BC&SL is the best work they have done since SDOIT in my opinion. The Shattered Fortress and Count of Tuscany are my 2 favorite tracks. TSF has surpassed TGP as my favorite song from the 12 step saga, it so freaking metal :metal. Nightmare is a great epic opener. AROP has that Pull me Under type vibe. Wither is a beautiful ballad. BOT is a beautiful touching upbeat song dedicated to Portnoy's late father, and TCOT is just a monster of an epic, my only complaint is the music to that song deserves better lyrics.
I give the album 4/5 stars.
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Great first post. :tup Welcome.
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Great first post. :tup Welcome.
Thanks ;D
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Ah it's nice to finally discuss this album.
The album for me is at this stage my 3rd or 4th favorite by DT. That says a lot. SFAM and Awake still remain the greatest albums ever made imo.
The opening is so damm epic. I can't believe how awesome it is! I listened to it in the car with a mate and we almost had a car crash!
But it all ended ok...EVERYONE SURVIVED.
The whole album is very tightly woven with bacon and gravy mixed in with some fresh water Long Island Salmon. :biggrin:
The Count of tuscany sits up there with A Change of Seasons and Octavarium. Actually it's probably their most focused epic song made.
All in all a 9/10.
Great work by DT.
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Ah it's nice to finally discuss this album.
The album for me is at this stage my 3rd or 4th favorite by DT. That says a lot. SFAM and Awake still remain the greatest albums ever made imo.
The opening is so damm epic. I can't believe how awesome it is! I listened to it in the car with a mate and we almost had a car crash!
But it all ended ok...EVERYONE SURVIVED. ROROROROROOOOOOROROROROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOWAHHHHH
The whole album is very tightly woven with bacon and gravy mixed in with some fresh water Long Island Salmon. :biggrin:
The Count of tuscany sits up there with A Change of Seasons and Octavarium. Actually it's probably their most focused epic song made.
All in all a 9/10.
Great work by DT.
fixed for completeness
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Going to the store today to get it. Will post review here later.
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I also want to add that Jordan Rudess is absolutely fantastic on this album. I think It's his best work on a DT record yet, or at least just as good as SDOIT.
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I'm really surprised at the reactions to the album. Been listening to it for over a week, and I thought most would share my sentiments when we finally got to discuss it. I don't feel like it comes anywhere close to Awake, I&W, SDoIT, or Scenes, but I'm glad you people like it.
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I'm really surprised at the reactions to the album. Been listening to it for over a week, and I thought most would share my sentiments when we finally got to discuss it. I don't feel like it comes anywhere close to Awake, I&W, SDoIT, or Scenes, but I'm glad you people like it.
Just out of curiosity what is it about this album that makes you feel that it's not even close to Awake, I&W or SDOIT?
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Wow, there's a LOT of good stuff on this CD =) I really like it, DT have been drifting a bit from what I came to love them for, but this time I really appreciate almost every second of the record and that makes me really really happy :D
Oh, I have a question. I bought the 3-cd set, and it says on the cover that it contains extended artwork etc.. But the only thing inside was the 3 CDs .. Shouldn't there be like a booklet or something, with lyrics and everything? I mean, there's ALWAYS a booklet!!? And now, how can I go back to the store and complain about a missing booklet? Can't be proven... I NEED THE BOOKLET! :'(
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There should be a booklet. It sits in that slit on the inner right-hand side of the gatefold.
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I'm really surprised at the reactions to the album. Been listening to it for over a week, and I thought most would share my sentiments when we finally got to discuss it. I don't feel like it comes anywhere close to Awake, I&W, SDoIT, or Scenes, but I'm glad you people like it.
Just out of curiosity what is it about this album that makes you feel that it's not even close to Awake, I&W or SDOIT?
Just general disjointedness; lyrics, as well as the subject matter of said lyrics; a great deal of, what I consider to be, cheesy melodies; way too much singing by Portnoy; and a general lack of brilliant melodies that I feel the aforementioned albums have.
Also, all the aforementioned albums have their own distinct sound, while Black Clouds, as it has been touted around here frequently, is really just Dream Theater. It gives one a great representation of Dream Theater's style on all fronts, but that is not what I look for in a Dream Theater album. I look for distinction.
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Yeah. ^
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great album
loved all of it apart from AROP, which i consider sub-par. On first listen, i thought TBOT was a bit weak but its getting better with every listen faster than all the other songs.
I love the shattered fortress, great closer to the AA saga and really enjoy listening to it both to hear the adaptations of the old parts and I really like it as a song as a whole, although im not a fan of the transition into TROAE part.
Im looking forward to being able to sing along to wither, such a power ballad!
Definite top 4 DT album. I'll have to give it a month or so before im sure of where in the top 4 though...
I also really liked how they worked with the buildup to the album, with the 1 at a time release of the cover songs, which definitely built my excitement up.
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After more in depth listens, I'll say that this is a good album, but not one of the best imo.
A Nightmare to Remember: I love this song and the only thing I dont like is Portnoy vocals (this goes for the entire album) Absolutely love the mellow section; when I first heard it, I melted.
A Rite of Passage: When I first heard it, I didnt like it. After a few more listens, It grew on me but now, I dont like it again, lol. It just doesnt seem...idk, distinctive or special; its just a "radio" DT song, imo. Second least favorite song
Wither: At first I didnt really like this song too much, but after a few more listens, I will admit its pretty good, but still not amazing.
Shattered Fortress: I really expected the blending of the AA saga bits to be a little better and coherent, and although some moments are good on here, this is probably my least favorite song.
The Best of Times: I need to give it a few more listens honestly, but as of now, I dont like it that much.
The Count of Tuscany: At first listen, could care less about it, but now, I do think it is a pretty good song. Dont mind the lyrics as much as most people, and its a good all around epic.
The album is definately much more coherent than SC, but its brought down to me because it (at least yet) doesnt really have its own identity and distinctiveness, as previously mentioned by someone. It just sounds like...Dream Theater doing Dream Theater, and while that isnt bad, its not what I look for.
I give the album 3.5/5 for now
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The anticipation was well worth it. This album is brilliant and has so many high points. It just never lets up for a second. The Shattered Fortress is a brilliant end to the suite, and The Count of Tuscany may be my new favorite song bar none.
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ANTR, TSF and Wither are the only listenable songs for me and even they have many flaws. Lyrics are awful throughout, imo. The album is also filled with missing or just horrible transitions, which are most prominent on TSF. It really sounds like a bunch of riffs from other songs put together.
So, yeah. Bad lyrics. Bad/missing transitions leading to awkward and out of place melodies/sections. Completely unnecessary parts that don't seem to do anything to develop the song. Annoying (for me) MP lead vocals and a lot of the backing ones too. Basically that's what grinds my gears. Some really great moments but not enough concentration on them. This album could have been on par with ToT or even SDOIT had they demoed it and refined the music and lyrics some more.
3 or 3.5/10 at most from me which makes it better than Octavarium and SC.
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What's interesting about The Best of Times and The Count of Tuscany is there's a lot of "Lifesonesque" guitar in there.
Right now I'd give this album a 10/10, but I'm willing to wait for the album to age on me.
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I can't stop listening to Wither, it's so powerful and emotional despite the subject matter which makes the lyrical composition the much ore compelling and exceptional! Please get this some radio time! (even if that means reaching the 'wrong' demographic, the financial support would be much deserved imho)
This album is truly the best way to introduce Dream Theater to a friend, very balanced and encompassing many of Dream Theater's signature elements.
AROP- Greatest single, this destroys Constant Motion (which I personally liked btw). Very catchy, compelling, and a great Live potential.
ANTR - Again, the soft melody in the middle is pure ecstasy.
Wither- Like i said before, pure ballad mastery, my favorite song for some reason. My girlfriend loves it too so that's a plus!
TCOT- Amazing song, I like how Dream Theater manages to reinvent itself with every new album, they all have a very particular sound that is reminiscent of Dream Theater as a band but that stands originally on its own. All I need in my Zune is Dream Theater. (and maybe some Porcupine Tree, Beardfish...)
TBOT- yeah, very powerful emotional connection specially if you now the background of this song, beautiful.
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Amazing album from beginning to end. I still can't believe it's Dream Theater.
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Amazing album from beginning to end. I still can't believe it's Dream Theater.
Wait what?
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I've gotten so used to BALLS BALLS BALLS that the sound on this album is totally surprising for me.
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portnoy had some vocals in there that lasted less then 10 seconds i started freaking out how can this be this is just blasphomy it just ruined my day
this is what i get when people complain about portnoys singing for only 10 seconds threw out and album that is almost 80 minutes
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its good. listen to the best of times 3 minutes in you can definetly hear the spirit of radio from rush influence their
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I really think Wrath is a troll.
Think about it. He just double posted, used almost no punctuation, and misused there/their/they're.
On another note, this album is better than sex.
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I think we all need to rate it on rateyourmusic to stop all the bashing from idiots it is getting.
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portnoy had some vocals in there that lasted less then 10 seconds i started freaking out how can this be this is just blasphomy it just ruined my day
this is what i get when people complain about portnoys singing for only 10 seconds threw out and album that is almost 80 minutes
Here's a little something:
.....,,,,,???!
Use them.
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portnoy had some vocals in there that lasted less then 10 seconds i started freaking out how can this be this is just blasphomy it just ruined my day
this is what i get when people complain about portnoys singing for only 10 seconds threw out and album that is almost 80 minutes
I have no idea what you just said.
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It will forever remain a mystery.
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portnoy had some vocals in there that lasted less then 10 seconds i started freaking out how can this be this is just blasphomy it just ruined my day
this is what i get when people complain about portnoys singing for only 10 seconds threw out and album that is almost 80 minutes
I have no idea what you just said.
Me neither :lol
On another note, I just realised how much time I spend on these forums when it was at a discussion low. Now that it's primetime for chatter... argh :facepalm:
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It will forever remain a mystery.
Just like his rituals and secrets.
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portnoy had some vocals in there that lasted less then 10 seconds i started freaking out how can this be this is just blasphomy it just ruined my day
this is what i get when people complain about portnoys singing for only 10 seconds threw out and album that is almost 80 minutes
I have no idea what you just said.
Me neither :lol
On another note, I just realised how much time I spend on these forums when it was at a discussion low. Now that it's primetime for chatter... argh :facepalm:
:lol
It's like learning to maneuver the crowded halls of a high school between classes; takes practice...and a lot of unfortunate (and sometimes painful) mishaps.
Anyway, I've now incorporated the new album into my "College sophomore semester 1" playlist. This is gonna be a wonderful semester for music.
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I'm pretty sure Wrath42147 is a joke account.
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I've gotten so used to BALLS BALLS BALLS that the sound on this album is totally surprising for me.
Yes. For example, ANTR and TSF are pretty heavy and stuff, but they're not "ARSE AND BALLS! LOL" like most of SC was.
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im just saying alot of people compalin about portnoy singing when its only for ten seconds on the whole album.
this album is really showing off how much rush influenced them
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I've gotten so used to BALLS BALLS BALLS that the sound on this album is totally surprising for me.
Yes. For example, ANTR and TSF are pretty heavy and stuff, but they're not "ARSE AND BALLS! LOL" like most of SC was.
Right; it's heavy but it's balanced.
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I've gotten so used to BALLS BALLS BALLS that the sound on this album is totally surprising for me.
Yes. For example, ANTR and TSF are pretty heavy and stuff, but they're not "ARSE AND BALLS! LOL" like most of SC was.
Right; it's heavy but it's balanced.
EXACTLY! It's almost like it's heavy but you don't notice it, because it works so damn well. A great example of this is TCOT - it's actually pretty heavy at the start, but doesn't feel like ToT or SC. Or even better - ANTR - it's really heavy, but doesn't feel forced... it really works, and is probably helped with the atmosphere thanks to mr JR.
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It's heavy but not generic heavy, unlike their recent philosophy of setting out to right "types of songs" rather than songs that have all sorts of styles thrown in. The DT "melting pot" is back.
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Internet reviews are so funny. I just read one that goes along the lines of "SDOIT, TOT and SFAM are all amazing, but I didnt like SC and I've only heard AROP so far and I bet it'll be like SC again"
You haven't heard the album yet are reviewing it? :sadpanda:
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I think we all need to rate it on rateyourmusic to stop all the bashing from idiots it is getting.
just because you cream yourself with anything the band puts out doesnt mean that other people aren't allowed to be disappointed with the album, I know I don't like you and you don't like me, but come on, calling people who dont like the album idiots?
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I think we all need to rate it on rateyourmusic to stop all the bashing from idiots it is getting.
just because you cream yourself with anything the band puts out doesnt mean that other people aren't allowed to be disappointed with the album, I know I don't like you and you don't like me, but come on, calling people who dont like the album idiots?
Stop.
Please.
It's okay if you don't like the new album, but the way your drawing this whole thing out in various threads is getting really annoying. If you don't like it, then say so, take a break from the computer, and go listen to something else. Don't make it a point to harp away at everyone who does (which is the vast majority) and then act like there's some personality conflict involved.
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I think we all need to rate it on rateyourmusic to stop all the bashing from idiots it is getting.
just because you cream yourself with anything the band puts out doesnt mean that other people aren't allowed to be disappointed with the album, I know I don't like you and you don't like me, but come on, calling people who dont like the album idiots?
The fact is people go out of their way to give it a 0.5 rating purely because it's dream theater.. which is pretty immature.
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People actually do that?
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People actually do that?
Well it's arguable whether or not they can be defined as 'people'.
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People actually do that?
In Houston they say that?
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People actually do that?
In Houston they say that?
:lol
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Jeez, I just wrote a review for iTunes, so I'm not gonna write another. It is really a great album, and it's currently my second favorite. My favorite song is A Nightmare to Remember, which is almost worth the ten bucks itself. My least favorite is A Rite of Passage, and my meh track would be Wither.
5/5 from me, I'm gonna be listening to this one for a looooooong time. :tup
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About halfway through The Shattered Fortress right now. Lovin' it all so far. :tup
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I'm not even all of the way through my first listen and i know this is going to up with the best of them. Probably ranked third behind Images and Words and Six Degrees.
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I'm not even all of the way through my first listen and i know this is going to up with the best them. Probably ranked third behind Images and Words and Six Degrees.
Indeed. BC&SL is the best them.
:metal :metal :metal :metal :metal :metal :metal :metal :metal
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This is also my first time hearing all of the covers other than Stargazer and the queen medley.
Their pretty awesome too.
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My reaction is that I FUCKING LOVE THIS ALBUM and I've been loving it for some time.
This is right up there with the best DT has ever done and I have a feeling it will become my favorite DT album! :metal
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I've listened through it once. Like SC, I'm leaning toward the 1st half of the album. The 2nd half not so much. Need more listens. Many more.
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Wow, just got through it. Just...Wow. Their best since SFAM, IMHO.
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Wow, just got through it. Just...Wow. Their best since SFAM, IMHO.
My sentiments exactly.
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I've only listened to it once, but that listen was fucking MAGICAL.
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Just listened through for the first time, and aside from a few specific complaints, I'm very happy with the album, certainly up there with the best of them.
Favorite for both me and Amanda was The Shattered Fortress, and we also both agreed that A Nightmare to Remember was our least favorite. Amanda would like to add that she very much disliked the lyrics to The Count of Tuscany, but otherwise it was awesome.
Given a few more listens I'll be doing a full review with TOX at some point.
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Just listened through for the first time, and aside from a few specific complaints, I'm very happy with the album, certainly up there with the best them.
Fixed.
A Nightmare to Remember was our least favorite.
ANTR starts out amazing, and seems to drop off at the last 1/3, unfortunately.
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I listened with my friend last night at midnight... we loved it and crawled around the boards for a little reading everyone's reactions. Heres what we thought after our first listen
Me:
1. Shattered
2. Wither
3. Best of Times
4. Rite of Passage
5. Nightmare to Remember
6. Count of Tuscany
Friend:
1. Best of Times
2. Wither
3. Shattered Fortress
4. Nightmare to Remember
5. Passage
6. Count of Tuscany
However, on my second/third listenings, I've warmed up to Count a bit. The lyrics are horrible, and that was a true shock last night, which is why it is so low. However, after the initial shock I was able to appreciate the song more. My list has changed a bit now too.
I'd probably rate this 5th greatest album by them, behind Awake and infront of Train of Thought... but it's still early
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I certainly agree Mr. Sigz. And my biggest complaints aren't even the growling, shocker!
I would say the instrumental section really takes away from the song. The different verse/bridge/chorus sections build on each other very nicely, but then the wanking solos tend to take away from the cohesiveness. Something like the mini-keyboard atmospheric build in Wither would have worked really well in that song. Also the blast beats by Portnoy made me quite unhappy.
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I personally don't put much weight on lyrics so I don't really give a damn, but the music is great throughout the album.
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While we are at it...
The Shattered Fortress
The Best of Times
The Count of Tuscany
Wither
A Rite of Passage
A Nightmare to Remember
Now I love A Rite of Passage, so that gives you a good idea about my overall feelings on this album.
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The lyrics of The Count of Tuscany are lolworthy, but the song in itself it's amazing!!
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My ranking so far:
The Count of Tuscany
The Best of Times
Wither
A Nightmare to Remember
The Shattered Fortress
A Rite of Passage
Sorry for having strange opinions. :P
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Ranking
Tuscany/TSF
Wither
ANTR
AROP
TBOT
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Wither is the best short song DT has ever done!
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Wither is the best short song DT has ever done!
I wouldn't say ever, but it's really good.
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My thoughts on this album:
smileinmypants.gif
That is all.
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Here's mine so far, this is only my third listen through, so obviously things are subject to change.
A Nightmare to Remember (Why isn't this song ranked higher on everybody else's lists?)
The Best of Times
The Shattered Fortress
The Count of Tuscany
Wither
A Rite of Passage.
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Wither is the best short song DT has ever done!
I agree, it's absolutely wonderful.
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I would say Shattered Fortress is the worst song on this album, just too much of old and not enough new to make this song very good. Pretty much my only complaint so far. I can't get over how awesome Whither is. ANTR is much better than I thought. The more I listen, the more and more I like this song. The last two (30+ minutes of music) is just fantastic.
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Still don't know how well I can rank the songs, though The Count is comfortably #1. As for how BC&SL sits with the rest of their catalog:
1. Six Degrees Of Inner Turbulence (A+)
2. Awake (A+)
3. Scenes From A Memory (A)
4. Images and Words (A)
5. Black Clouds & Silver Linings (A-)
6. Falling Into Infinity (B+/A-)
7. Train Of Thought (B+)
8. Systematic Chaos (B)
9. Octavarium (B)
10. When Dream and Day Unite (Not familiar enough with this one to grade it, although that's probably not a good sign)
/admitted fanboy
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After 2 listens and the second one more carefully, i think it's up there with the best... probably going to settle in at about 5th in my rankings... I really didn't pay too much attention to the lyrics, but the music was great and the vocals were great...
My rankings (as of today, but could change...)
1. Scenes From a Memory
2. Awake
3. Images and Words
4. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
5. Black Clouds & Silver Linings
6. Octavarium
7. Systematic Chaos
8. Train of Thought
9. Falling into Infinity
10. When Day and Dream Unite
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My rankings so far:
1. SFAM
2. FII
3. Awake
4. BC&SL
5. Octavarium
6. I&W
7. SDOIT
8. ToT
9. SC
10. WDADU
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My rankings so far:
1. SFAM
2. FII
3. Awake
4. BC&SL
5. Octavarium
6. I&W
7. SDOIT
8. ToT
9. SC
10. WDADU
Whoa, I didn't know you held FII in such high regard. :tup
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I can't get over how awesome Whither is.
I can't get over how many people can't spell Wither.
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HEYYO
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Can everyone keep their eyes open for me if they see a producer's cd somewhere for sale by itself?
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I'm certainly in the minority, but I just don't care for this album. I haven't really liked their stuff since 6DOIT, so it's obviously time to move on to other music. I'm getting tired of buying DT albums and being disappointed (and I'm not going to illegally download to 'try' first), so this will undoubtedly be the last one I buy. Still, I wish them much success - they sure have mastery over their instruments, but their writing just isn't to my tastes.
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I would say Shattered Fortress is the worst song on this album, just too much of old and not enough new to make this song very good. Pretty much my only complaint so far. I can't get over how awesome Whither is. ANTR is much better than I thought. The more I listen, the more and more I like this song. The last two (30+ minutes of music) is just fantastic.
I agree with your first and last sentences. I still really enjoy TSF, and a lot of the new spins they put on the old stuff are awesome, but in the end it doesn't stand alone as well as the other songs in the suite.
The Count of Tuscany
Wither
A Nightmare to Remember
A Rite of Passage
The Best of Times
The Shattered Fortress
For whatever reason, as goofy as the lyrics of TCOT are, they do not bother me that much. They just don't come across like they were meant to be taken too seriously, although who knows at this point. With TBOT on the other hand, the lyrics are sincere and genuine, but honestly, there are several parts that I can't believe made it into the final song in their current form.
-J
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Man, ranking the songs is seriously hard, literally all the songs are great.
For the moment, this is my ranking, but I'm sure it'll change at some point:
1. Wither
2. The Count of Tuscany
3. The Best of Times
4. The Shattered Fortress / A Nightmare to Remember (tied)
6. A Rite of Passage
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1. ANTR
2. Wither
3. TSF
4. AROP
5. TCOT
6. TBOT
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I'm certainly in the minority, but I just don't care for this album. I haven't really liked their stuff since 6DOIT, so it's obviously time to move on to other music. I'm getting tired of buying DT albums and being disappointed (and I'm not going to illegally download to 'try' first), so this will undoubtedly be the last one I buy. Still, I wish them much success - they sure have mastery over their instruments, but their writing just isn't to my tastes.
You are certainly entitled to your opinion, whether you are in the minority or not. It's too bad you are disappointed, but I appreciate the fact that you conveyed your disappointment tactfully and without breaking the forum rules. A lot of people could stand to learn from your post.
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I'm certainly in the minority, but I just don't care for this album. I haven't really liked their stuff since 6DOIT, so it's obviously time to move on to other music. I'm getting tired of buying DT albums and being disappointed (and I'm not going to illegally download to 'try' first), so this will undoubtedly be the last one I buy. Still, I wish them much success - they sure have mastery over their instruments, but their writing just isn't to my tastes.
I feel really bad for you.
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The Count of Tuscany
Wither
A Nightmare to Remember
The Best of Times
A Rite of Passage
The Shattered Fortress
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Here's my initial song ranking:
1. The Count of Tuscany
2. A Nightmare To Remember
3. The Best of Times
4. Wither
5. The Shattered Fortress
6. A Rite of Passage
That's not to say that TSF and ARoP aren't good songs, but I haven't listened to them as much as the others. Also, TCOT and ANTR are pretty much tied for first. It was really hard to pick between the two
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Song rankings (tentative)
1. The Best of Times
2. A Nightmare to Remember
3. The Counr of Tuscany
4. Wither
5. The Shattered Fortress
6. A Rite of Passage
Albums
1. SFAM
2. Images
3. 6DOIT
4. BC&SL
5. 8VM
6. TOT
7. Awake
8. WDADU
9. SC
10. FII
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So a quick question for those who got the Deluxe Edition;
Now, most of the isolated tracks sound great. However, I couldn't help but notice some issues with the bass stems. One of the first things I did was listen to the isolated bass stems to actually hear what Myung was doing. It being Myung, I was expecting greatness. However...
- Even just listening or looking at the waveforms, the bass is much quieter than anything else.
- On many occasions, the bass has a very distorted, muddy sound that almost sounds like they just put a cassette recorder next to the amp.
- There are points where it gets a little sloppy. Again, I was shocked, because Myung is usually so precise, and obviously very skilled; he's one of my favorite bass players.
Again, most of the stems were great, but this was a little disappointing.
Did anyone else notice this?
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Yup. I did the same thing and noticed that too. Besides the sloppy part, I'm not trained to notice such things on a bass.
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This is hardly organized or specific enough to be classified as a "review," but here are my initial thoughts after one listen:
I REALLY like what I'm hearing so far. On the drive back from BB, I listened to ANTR, Wither, and TSF (skipped AROP since I've heard it before). I'll give a few short notes for now of my initial impressions. If I have the time, I'd like to do a full-blown review in the next few days.
ANTR completely slayed me. Awesome metal track with a softer middle section that is PERFECT. The solo tradeoff spot is cool. And the later continuum solo really shows off that the the continuum is a very unique instrument that is so much more than something to mimick guitar sounds.
AROP: Heard it before. Good song. A bit formulaic, but that's okay. It reminds me a lot of CM, which I love, but has its own unique character as well.
Wither: Very straightforward by DT standards, but honestly one of the best straightforward ballady songs they've done in a long time. I suspect my interest in this song will wane over time, but it is very solid, catchy, and just all-around good.
TSF: (which is now playing as I sit in teh office overlooking teh river typing this) I like. The use of the heavy instrumental riff from TGP as the main riff under the vocal part for a lot of Restraint is incredible. I wouldn't have ever thought to use that as a main riff during a vocal part of a song, but I cannot emphasize enough how much it works. The reprises, for the most part, work very well. And while some may feel they are overdone, it seems a fitting endcap to this 7-year, 5-album journey. The only thing that didn't seem quite right to me was the transition to the TROAE reprise in the middle of Receive. Once there, the reprise was grand. But even for a band that makes abrupt transitions its signature, this transition just felt forced. Maybe I'll get over it after repeat listens. The transitions into and out of the Repentence reprise were great. Very good song overall. I'm hoping I can get a friend of mine to make me a good mix of the entire 12-Step suite on ProTools and very much looking forward to hearing it all together like that. Oh, and the ending...pretty close to perfect. It's not the huge epic ending a lot of people were probably expecting, but it really is the perfect way to have ended the saga.
TBOT: Great song. Since I'm in the office, I couldn't listen at full volume, but I reall like what I heard. I thought it was going to be much more melancholy sounding. I like that it wasn't all darkness and minor chords. The lyrics fit the mood of the song nicely. Mike did a really nice job with this one.
TCOT: Wow, this is a lot to take in. The album definitely has its metal side. But this song does the prog side some justice. Cool lyrics. JP does the whole "narrative that paints an interesting picture and isn't to be taken too seriously" thing so well. This song feels like it is going to be a grower, but I already like what I've heard considerably.
That's as far as I've gotten (which is to say, I haven't listened to the covers yet). Overall, the album feels incredibly solid. Not really a weak link at all, which is great. That was my biggest disappointment with SC--the fact that the first half of the album was so strong, and then just tapered off and ended with a bit of a whimper. Oh, and thus far, while I haven't done any sort of in-depth lyrical analysis, I don't lend any credence to those criticizing the lyrics on this album. So far, the lyrical content I've heard has ranged from good to great. Are the lyrics chock full of all kinds of literary and poetic devices like some of the Moore- or Myung-penned lyrics of the past? No. But they are solid nonetheless. Good lyrics fit the song and convey whatever mood or emotion the song is trying to convey. These lyrics do that and do it well. No, the lyrics on BCSL don't harbor the secret cure for cancer and AIDS all rolled into one. But they don't have to. The lyrics are good, and I really don't find any arguments that they are somehow objectively bad to be credible in any sense.
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My rankings so far:
1. SFAM
2. FII
3. Awake
4. BC&SL
5. Octavarium
6. I&W
7. SDOIT
8. ToT
9. SC
10. WDADU
Whoa, I didn't know you held FII in such high regard. :tup
I fucking LOVE Falling Into Infinity. And I actually don't think YNM is that bad.
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Once again Bosk does a great job at a mini review :)
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I'm not even all of the way through my first listen and i know this is going to up with the best them. Probably ranked third behind Images and Words and Six Degrees.
Indeed. BC&SL is the best of times.
:metal :metal :metal :metal :metal :metal :metal :metal :metal
Fixed.
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I'm certainly in the minority, but I just don't care for this album. I haven't really liked their stuff since 6DOIT, so it's obviously time to move on to other music. I'm getting tired of buying DT albums and being disappointed (and I'm not going to illegally download to 'try' first), so this will undoubtedly be the last one I buy. Still, I wish them much success - they sure have mastery over their instruments, but their writing just isn't to my tastes.
You are certainly entitled to your opinion, whether you are in the minority or not. It's too bad you are disappointed, but I appreciate the fact that you conveyed your disappointment tactfully and without breaking the forum rules. A lot of people could stand to learn from your post.
Absolutely. While it breaks my heart I don't feel ofended. Thank you, manticore.
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My rankings so far:
1. SFAM
2. FII
3. Awake
4. BC&SL
5. Octavarium
6. I&W
7. SDOIT
8. ToT
9. SC
10. WDADU
Whoa, I didn't know you held FII in such high regard. :tup
I fucking LOVE Falling Into Infinity. And I actually don't think YNM is that bad.
So do I, and neither do I. It's dumb fun. DT's done worse.
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My rankings so far:
1. SFAM
2. FII
3. Awake
4. BC&SL
5. Octavarium
6. I&W
7. SDOIT
8. ToT
9. SC
10. WDADU
Whoa, I didn't know you held FII in such high regard. :tup
I fucking LOVE Falling Into Infinity. And I actually don't think YNM is that bad.
So do I, and neither do I. It's dumb fun. DT's done worse.
For example...?
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Space Dye Vest. Prophets of War.
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Oh Bosk, you jester.
Anyway I am entering this album on my charts a very solid 4th behind Train of Thought, Scenes From a Memory, and Images & Words, and ahead of my long time 4th favorite When Dream and Day Unite.
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and here is my album ranking:
1. Awake
2. Six Degrees
3. Images And Words
4. Octavarium
5. Black Clouds and Silver Linings
6. Falling Into Infinity
7. Scenes From a Memory
8. Systematic Chaos
9. When Dream and Day Unite
10. Train of Thought
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Oh Bosk, you jester.
Anyway I am entering this album on my charts a very solid 4th behind Train of Thought, Scenes From a Memory, and Images & Words, and ahead of my long time 4th favorite When Dream and Day Unite.
Are you serious? :|
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I'm actually somehow enjoying this album more with every listen. Might actually be tied with Awake for my number 3 spot! :o
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Oh Bosk, you jester.
Anyway I am entering this album on my charts a very solid 4th behind Train of Thought, Scenes From a Memory, and Images & Words, and ahead of my long time 4th favorite When Dream and Day Unite.
Are you serious? :|
Like a heart attack.
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Am I the only one who find BC&SL kinda weak?
Yes, it is better than SC. But it's worse than all of their other efforts.
Yes it has good songs (Wither, TCOT, TBOT), and good moments ... actually some really cool moments. Rudess shines.
But,
a) Can anybody stop MP from singing please?! Seriously..., seriously. He can actually start a side project with him on lead vocals if he wants.
b) Some songs needed serious editing (Producer, anybody?).
c) Some lyrics need a lot of extra work. The only one I really don't complain about is TBOT cuz I understand where MP was coming from.. even though they are pretty generic and straight forward.
d) TSF is one big Potpourri. Not going anywhere....
e) I really miss some of the crazy wankery... I do. But I also aknowledge the fact that it has amazing melodic solos.
To say that it is up there with the best... I can't.
I don't think it is better than anything before SC.
Again... RAWR!!!!!!!! LOL.
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Oh Bosk, you jester.
Anyway I am entering this album on my charts a very solid 4th behind Train of Thought, Scenes From a Memory, and Images & Words, and ahead of my long time 4th favorite When Dream and Day Unite.
Are you serious? :|
Like a heart attack.
ToT and WDADU as some of your top albums... wow.
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Oh Bosk, you jester.
Anyway I am entering this album on my charts a very solid 4th behind Train of Thought, Scenes From a Memory, and Images & Words, and ahead of my long time 4th favorite When Dream and Day Unite.
Are you serious? :|
Like a heart attack.
ToT and WDADU as some of your top albums... wow.
Train of Thought is my top album, and WDaDU is very underrated. I've discussed it elsewhere a billion times, so I'm not going to weight this thread down with it, but those are my opinions. :)
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a) Can anybody stop MP from singing please?! Seriously..., seriously. He can actually start a side project with him on lead vocals if he wants.
No way. He sounds fantastic.
b) Some songs needed serious editing (Producer, anybody?).
Nah, not much. Yeah, the edit of AROP does sound better than the album version. But there is little if anything I would cut from anything else. They pretty much nailed it with the rest of these tracks.
c) Some lyrics need a lot of extra work. The only one I really don't complain about is TBOT cuz I understand where MP was coming from.. even though they are pretty generic and straight forward.
See my "review" post. I think anyone who makes this criticism is WAY off base. The lyrics range from good to great throughout the album. The band deserves no criticism whatsoever in the lyrics department on this album.
d) TSF is one big Potpourri. Not going anywhere....
Potpourri is probably the best word I've seen to describe this song. Yes. Yes, it is. And that's why it works. Very good closer to the suite.
e) I really miss some of the crazy wankery... I do. But I also aknowledge the fact that it has amazing melodic solos.
I actually have no idea what you are trying to say here.
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Am I the only one who find BC&SL kinda weak?
Yes, it is better than SC. But it's worse than all of their other efforts.
even WDADU? :-\
a) Can anybody stop MP from singing please?! Seriously..., seriously. He can actually start a side project with him on lead vocals if he wants.
What is it with people and this. His lone spots are so few and far between, it's pretty petty to go on. And at other times he really adds to it like in TCOT and AROP
b) Some songs needed serious editing (Producer, anybody?).
Really? I felt this time they were extremely well done time wise, even ANTR which people seem to say that about most. TCOT is the longest song and it just flies by...
c) Some lyrics need a lot of extra work. The only one I really don't complain about is TBOT cuz I understand where MP was coming from.even though they are pretty generic and straight forward.
...like what? None of them strike me as worse than a lot of other lyrics they have done.
d) TSF is one big Potpourri. Not going anywhere....
It finishes up pretty conclusively.
e) I really miss some of the crazy wankery... I do. But I also aknowledge the fact that it has amazing melodic solos.
:| It has the best of both - ANTR and AROP have 'wankery' solos, the others have either short & sweet or just awesomeness.
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a) Can anybody stop MP from singing please?! Seriously..., seriously. He can actually start a side project with him on lead vocals if he wants.
No way. He sounds fantastic.
b) Some songs needed serious editing (Producer, anybody?).
Nah, not much. Yeah, the edit of AROP does sound better than the album version. But there is little if anything I would cut from anything else. They pretty much nailed it with the rest of these tracks.
c) Some lyrics need a lot of extra work. The only one I really don't complain about is TBOT cuz I understand where MP was coming from.. even though they are pretty generic and straight forward.
See my "review" post. I think anyone who makes this criticism is WAY off base. The lyrics range from good to great throughout the album. The band deserves no criticism whatsoever in the lyrics department on this album.
d) TSF is one big Potpourri. Not going anywhere....
Potpourri is probably the best word I've seen to describe this song. Yes. Yes, it is. And that's why it works. Very good closer to the suite.
e) I really miss some of the crazy wankery... I do. But I also aknowledge the fact that it has amazing melodic solos.
I actually have no idea what you are trying to say here.
Since I am not an Admin I can criticize... or I thought I could express my opinion. Admins can follow the preacher blindly.
I think MP kills ANTR.
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Since I am not an Admin I can criticize... or I thought I could express my opinion. Admins can follow the preacher blindly.
I think MP kills ANTR.
Now wait a minute man; how was anyone telling you to change your opinion? Your first post was very well put, but this second one is the kind of negativity that no one likes reading.
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My rankings so far:
1. SFAM
2. FII
3. Awake
4. BC&SL
5. Octavarium
6. I&W
7. SDOIT
8. ToT
9. SC
10. WDADU
Whoa, I didn't know you held FII in such high regard. :tup
I fucking LOVE Falling Into Infinity. And I actually don't think YNM is that bad.
So do I, and neither do I. It's dumb fun. DT's done worse.
For example...?
This Dying Soul. Burning My Soul.
DT should never write a song with the word soul in the title again. They both suck.
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i find nothing wrong with this album. i hate to see people whine about little parts
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My rankings so far:
1. SFAM
2. FII
3. Awake
4. BC&SL
5. Octavarium
6. I&W
7. SDOIT
8. ToT
9. SC
10. WDADU
Whoa, I didn't know you held FII in such high regard. :tup
I fucking LOVE Falling Into Infinity. And I actually don't think YNM is that bad.
So do I, and neither do I. It's dumb fun. DT's done worse.
For example...?
This Dying Soul. Burning My Soul.
DT should never write a song with the word soul in the title again. They both suck.
BMS isn't great but I don't find it worse.
How can you not like TDS?!
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Since I am not an Admin I can criticize... or I thought I could express my opinion. Admins can follow the preacher blindly.
I think MP kills ANTR.
??? What does being an admin have to do with anything? I just find your post to be completely off base, admin or not.
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How can you not like TDS?!
It's pretty average. Definitely the least good 12-step song.
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My rankings so far:
1. SFAM
2. FII
3. Awake
4. BC&SL
5. Octavarium
6. I&W
7. SDOIT
8. ToT
9. SC
10. WDADU
Whoa, I didn't know you held FII in such high regard. :tup
I fucking LOVE Falling Into Infinity. And I actually don't think YNM is that bad.
So do I, and neither do I. It's dumb fun. DT's done worse.
For example...?
This Dying Soul. Burning My Soul.
DT should never write a song with the word soul in the title again. They both suck.
BMS isn't great but I don't find it worse.
How can you not like TDS?!
It's DT's worst song. How could you not?
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Calling MP's vocals fantastic... don't you think this is at least a bit of an overstatement? His best backing vocals are at best OK, imo. His lead ones are never good or fitting or anything good, imo. Hence I find your comment on them (and the lyrics) off base :p
Opinions and tastes... such a mind-boggling thing. It would be really awesome if someone could explain why we all like/dislike a certain thing so much.
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Calling MP's vocals fantastic... don't you think this is at least a bit of an overstatement? His best backing vocals are at best OK, imo. His lead ones are never good or fitting or anything good, imo. Hence I find your comment on them (and the lyrics) off base :p
Obviously you haven't listened to the Queen cover. He really does a good job on it.
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How can you not like TDS?!
It's pretty average. Definitely the least good 12-step song.
I guess it just touches my metal side. I love Endless Sacrifice too :laugh:
Plus doing drums for it will be a blast.
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Obviously you haven't listened to the Queen cover. He really does a good job on it.
I've heard it. And that goes in the "OK" category. Compare it to some Queensryche, Savatage or PoS backing vocals and you'll see what I mean... although I doubt it.
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I don't know either of these three bands, sorry.
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How can you not like TDS?!
It's pretty average. Definitely the least good 12-step song.
Nah, that award goes to TGP
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wat
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*insert jawdrop smiley*
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All i can say is thank you Dream Theater. Went to best buy before it opened. Got it and listened to the album till now. 9 years of journey with Dream theater and it was my favorite band and is my favorite band will always be my favorite band on this planet. This album just blew me away.
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How can you not like TDS?!
It's pretty average. Definitely the least good 12-step song.
Nah, that award goes to TGP
But... but...
Wat?!
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See my "review" post. I think anyone who makes this criticism is WAY off base. The lyrics range from good to great throughout the album. The band deserves no criticism whatsoever in the lyrics department on this album.
I strongly disagree. Not only do the lyrics sound lazier than most on Systematic Chaos (which is hard to do) but most come out more disappointing than usual due to how personal they were supposed to be. Granted some poor vocal melody choices lead some otherwise normal lines to be presented badly but it's hard to sing most of A Nightmare To Remember, The Count of Tuscany and The Best of Times and have it come out sounding fresh and sincere. On the flipside there isn't anything particularly wrong with something like Wither but it's so basic and cliche it's almost throwaway, lyrically. In my review I think I compared it to Hollow Years in terms of that. The good moments do shine, though, such as the "Peaceful sedation" and "I am responsible!" parts but they are few and far between.
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How can you not like TDS?!
It's pretty average. Definitely the least good 12-step song.
Nah, that award goes to TGP
(https://img115.imageshack.us/img115/2443/heytheresourpidgeonnoway0.jpg)
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Train of Thought is my top album, and WDaDU is very underrated. I've discussed it elsewhere a billion times, so I'm not going to weight this thread down with it, but those are my opinions. :)
Dead wrong about Train of Thought, but right on the money with WDADU. I'll give you one of these: :tdwn :tup.
[/quote]I don't think it is better than anything before SC.
You mean other than ToT and Octavarium, right? 'Cause this album is at LEAST better than those three. :biggrin:
Since I am not an Admin I can criticize... or I thought I could express my opinion. Admins can follow the preacher blindly.
He wasn't trying to suppress you from giving your opinion, he was just expressing his own. I didn't think either was done unreasonably, although I disagree with bosk1 about one thing: the lyrics of TBOT. Maybe it's just personal preference, but there are just several lines that don't seem up to par. *shrug* Sure, the band doesn't "deserve" any criticism for their lyrics; it's their music after all. But when I hear some of the TBOT lyrics (this does not apply to the whole song, mind you), I can't help but think that they can do better than that.
-J
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Something I noticed: JP's clean guitar tone is a bit similar to Steve Rothery's on this album, imo (especially on ANTR). It's just the lack of the strongly present highs and reverb that make the difference. I could be wrong, though.
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How can you not like TDS?!
It's pretty average. Definitely the least good 12-step song.
Nah, that award goes to TGP
:icwomangs:
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Something I noticed: JP's clean guitar tone is a bit similar to Steve Rothery's on this album, imo (especially on ANTR). It's just the lack of the strongly present highs and reverb that make the difference. I could be wrong, though.
I prefer his clean tone for this album than for SC. I thought it sounded to twangy on SC. Clean tone on Score was his best IMO.
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How can you not like TDS?!
It's pretty average. Definitely the least good 12-step song.
Nah, that award goes to TGP
Are you on fucking drugs?!?!?!
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There's a really... dreamlike quality to it.
It's like it's not quite there. But in a good way. Each song other than AROP seems to be kind of laced with a slightly surreal quality, the album's really dreamy compared to DT's usual stuff. The Shattered Fortress included, it's like a warped version of what came before, just unfamiliar enough to catch you right off guard.
Er quick recap, not song-by-song because I can't be arsed, but just things that strike me and I feel like mentioning.
The outro to the Best of Times really sticks out to me. The music carries on, and just gets more intense if anything, but it's like the listener is fading away. I had a bit of a moment.
I don't get why "The Count of Tuscany" is a funny title and probably never will, but musically it's nigh-on perfect, as loads of people have already said. I'm going to veer from the crowd though and say it's really cool lyrically too, though. It's eccentric, it just... fits. It's halfway between whimsy and deadpan, and it's written in an upper-class accent - but subtly. Loads of people think it's shit so maybe I'm just thinking too hard, but even before I heard the song I read through 'em and kinda felt like I could tell exactly what the Count was like. It's a very strange topic and written with eccentric undertones, I think that's perfect.
A Nightmare to Remember is the best song, and is the ideal combo of melody and heaviness. By which I mean all the heaviness has melody, and the melodies are always brilliant. The "without warning, out of nowhere, like a bullet from the night" is magical - although it's inevitably eclipsed by "peaceful sedation," which is one of the band's all time highlights. But I'm not going to repeat what everyone's already said.
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I just put my review up. Check it out. :)
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So far (one full listen) I love most of the album. But I have a feeling it's going to end up in my bottom 3 or 4.
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How can you not like TDS?!
It's pretty average. Definitely the least good 12-step song.
Nah, that award goes to TGP
Are you on fucking drugs?!?!?!
Nope ;D Its just that after the intro riff and the arpeggios, the song loses a TON of steam and staying power.
In my opinion of course.
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First thoughts are mixed. Most songs have moments of musical bliss and it's some of their best stuff, ever.
When I first saw the title A Nightmare To Remember, I figured Dream Theater had gone Alice Cooper on us. Well, partially. Much of the song sounds recycled and a horror show in boredom. One the plus side, DT is copying themselves. On the other hand, you've heard it before and it leaves you with an empty feeling. But the song has its merits, musically.
But A Rite Of Passage bores me to tears. It's marginally better than Constant Motion and that song is on par with You Not Me (translation: horrible).
Petrucci wrote all of Wither. You can tell. Essentially a guitar-only song, it belongs on a solo album. I skipped it halfway through, went back to give it another chance, got a full listen, ultimately decided it's a song the album could've left behind. It adds nothing.
The Shattered Fortress is barely listenable. Drives me to drink. What an anti-climax to an otherwise pretty good previous output. I understand the point of the song and all other intellectual justifications you can come up with but, seriously, I'll pay money to the person who can enjoy listening to it more than a few times.
Things get a little better with The Best Of Times, but the lyrics weigh the song down and, musically, on another album it would be a great song but in the context of some other moments of musical splendor on this album, it's reduced to being bland.
Whether the lyrics are serious or a joke, they simply do not if the music of The Count Of Tuscany. I can't even find words to describe this abomination. What a waste of such amazing music. This song could've placed itself as a Top 5 DT song. Imagine this music with lyrics from the days of I&W and Awake? Knock-out. Every Dream Theater fan would've entered into shock. Instead, we have.....this? What a waste.
Basically, most, if not all, lyrics on this album is some of the worst ever written by Petrucci and Portnoy. A huge disappointment and enough of such to disqualify this album from placing itself in the top 5 of DT albums, probably.
Musically, it's a huge step in the right direction since SC. Most of it sounds fresh and creative. There are a few sections I wish I'd never heard but some of it is simply sublime.
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When I first saw the title A Nightmare To Remember, I figured Dream Theater had gone Alice Cooper on us. Well, partially. Much of the song sounds recycled and a horror show in boredom. One the plus side, DT is copying themselves. On the other hand, you've heard it before and it leaves you with an empty feeling. But the song has its merits, musically.
Whoa. I, for one, think that DT aren't copying themselves in any sort of way with this song. Sure, it has the typical JP/JR trade off section, but I've yet to hear a DT song that is similar to ANTR. One of this song's greatest merits is that DT was meddling into some new territory, and they successfully did so (with the exception of some parts, of course, day after day.)
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I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks nearly all the lyrics are garbage.
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When I first saw the title A Nightmare To Remember, I figured Dream Theater had gone Alice Cooper on us. Well, partially. Much of the song sounds recycled and a horror show in boredom. One the plus side, DT is copying themselves. On the other hand, you've heard it before and it leaves you with an empty feeling. But the song has its merits, musically.
Whoa. I, for one, think that DT aren't copying themselves in any sort of way with this song. Sure, it has the typical JP/JR trade off section, but I've yet to hear a DT song that is similar to ANTR. One of this song's greatest merits is that DT was meddling into some new territory, and they successfully did so (with the exception of some parts, of course, day after day.)
Listen to the first section. You'll hear music found on SFAM, for example. Re-used and altered, but the same, nonetheless. I'll try to identify specific songs but my first thought upon listening was "wait, where have I heard this before?"
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I can't recall anything that is near as heavy in SFAM as Nightmare's beginning.
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I'm not talking about "heaviness" - I'm talking about the music, as in melodies, etc.
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Nope, I don't hear it. I can understand a comparison to some parts of fatal tragedy (vibe-wise), but they still sound nothing alike to me.
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Yeah, you can blame ANTR for a lot of things (which isn't such a precise thing, because the song is very good as it is), but DT ripping themselves isn't one of them.
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Yeah, you can blame ANTR for a lot of things (which isn't such a precise thing, because the song is very good as it is), but DT ripping themselves isn't one of them.
Agreed.
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Just listened through.
Don't want to say dissapointed, but, it's in the middle for me.
It had its moments, and it surely had it's lows.
However, I feel that it was enjoyable.
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Loved the CD. Not sure where I'd rank it yet, but it's definitley very high. I get the criticisms on the lyrics, but I like most of the lyrics for some reason, the simplistic lyrics of CoT made it interesting.
Or maybe I'm just too much of a fanboy. I don't care... 4.5/5
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Well I'm finally posting for the first time since getting the record!! Ok so here are my reactions:
HEAVY HEAVY HEAVY. I see that gothic thing right off the bat with the first few chords and synth pads, very cool stuff.
The first track is a complete trip!! The only thing that really threw me off was the parts where it was trying to be power metal/opeth.
Lots of good moments, but I think my overall reaction to this album is i am just baffled. I really don't know what to make of it yet. I really think this album is going to be a grower. The more I listen the more I'm sure I will start to fall in love with it. All my fav DT albums have been very hard to get into at first so I expect this one will get better over time.
Also, I'm listening to a right of passage right now, and the intro bass guitar sound before the distorted metal riff are sooooo fucking cool, I want more of that!!!!
It's way too early to have full opinions right now, but so far I am happy with it even though I'm still confused by the musical direction.
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I dunno, I don't think the lyrics are all "garbage", they're just very average. A few parts probably qualify as garbage, but for example, the lyrics of AROP, Wither, TSF, and ANTR (for the most part) don't bother me at all because they aren't *glaringly* bad. They don't stick out and distract you like parts of TBOT and TCOT, with the exception of the way Portnoy delivers the last part of his vocal section on ANTR.
That said, I can't help but expect a little more from them, mostly because they've written plenty of good to great lyrics in the past.
-J
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Here is my review in one word.....AMAZING!!!!!!!!! :tup :tup :tup :tup :tup :tup :tup :tup :tup :tup
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Here is my review in one word.....AMAZING!!!!!!!!! :tup :tup :tup :tup :tup :tup :tup :tup :tup :tup
I agree with you. :tup
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This is the fifth new release DT has put out since I've been a fan, and none have been bad to my ears. However, this album is the best since 6DOIT, in my opinion. 9/10
Edit: I should mention something...I'm of a different breed of metalhead. I usually don't pay much attention to lyrics at all (unless they are truly THAT good), perhaps due to all the melodic death metal I listen to (Children of Bodom, older In Flames, etc) and the fact that that style's lyrics are hard to make out. For me, it's ALL about the music, so the "bad lyrics" on BC&SL don't bother me at all. If they were telling us to worship Satan or rape women, sure, I'd stop listening. But they aren't signing about that psychotic stuff, so I don't care that the lyrics are cheesy. Again, it's all about the music for me, and in that department Dream Theater once again delivers.
Finally, this is just my opinion, and your mileage may vary.
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I don't get why "The Count of Tuscany" is a funny title and probably never will, but musically it's nigh-on perfect, as loads of people have already said. I'm going to veer from the crowd though and say it's really cool lyrically too, though. It's eccentric, it just... fits. It's halfway between whimsy and deadpan, and it's written in an upper-class accent - but subtly. Loads of people think it's shit so maybe I'm just thinking too hard, but even before I heard the song I read through 'em and kinda felt like I could tell exactly what the Count was like. It's a very strange topic and written with eccentric undertones, I think that's perfect.
I strongly agree with this.
The Shattered Fortress is barely listenable. Drives me to drink. What an anti-climax to an otherwise pretty good previous output. I understand the point of the song and all other intellectual justifications you can come up with but, seriously, I'll pay money to the person who can enjoy listening to it more than a few times.
I want my money.
The only bit of the album that truly does annoy me is the soloing/growls in ANtR. One or two lyrical moments seemed awkward in TSF and TBoT, but other than that, I have few problems with the lyrics on the album (I admit that they're not at level of I&W/Awake but they're good enough).
Best moments in the album for me were the intro to ANtR, the soft middle of ANtR, second half of guitar solo and 'I am responsible' part of TSF, and the whole of TCoT.
This is the fifth new release DT has put out since I've been a fan, and none have been bad to my ears. However, this album is the best since 6DOIT, in my opinion. 9/10
I agree here. Only, the mainstream-ish songs in 8VM and SC were for the most part unlistenable to me.
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a) Can anybody stop MP from singing please?! Seriously..., seriously. He can actually start a side project with him on lead vocals if he wants.
No way. He sounds fantastic.
b) Some songs needed serious editing (Producer, anybody?).
Nah, not much. Yeah, the edit of AROP does sound better than the album version. But there is little if anything I would cut from anything else. They pretty much nailed it with the rest of these tracks.
c) Some lyrics need a lot of extra work. The only one I really don't complain about is TBOT cuz I understand where MP was coming from.. even though they are pretty generic and straight forward.
See my "review" post. I think anyone who makes this criticism is WAY off base. The lyrics range from good to great throughout the album. The band deserves no criticism whatsoever in the lyrics department on this album.
d) TSF is one big Potpourri. Not going anywhere....
Potpourri is probably the best word I've seen to describe this song. Yes. Yes, it is. And that's why it works. Very good closer to the suite.
e) I really miss some of the crazy wankery... I do. But I also aknowledge the fact that it has amazing melodic solos.
I actually have no idea what you are trying to say here.
Since I am not an Admin I can criticize... or I thought I could express my opinion. Admins can follow the preacher blindly.
I think MP kills ANTR.
Holy crapping fail! You are the complete embodiment of all generic criticism against DT. :lol It would be amusing if I didn't think you were being completely serious
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No solos in the instrumental version of the CD included in the 3-disc collection? :huh: What the...? That was a mistake...
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No solos in the instrumental version of the CD included in the 3-disc collection? :huh: What the...? That was a mistake...
I was surprised too. Maybe someone can make a good instrumental mix with the best solos in ;)
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I know a few people are complaining about the instrumental mixes not featuring solos, but there were two ways they could have approached the instrumentals. They could have left in the solos and tried to make them instrumental tracks in the traditional sense of being intended that way, but instead they went for the approach of being a backing track for all lead instruments, whether it be vocals, guitar or keyboard. Personally I prefer the latter approach, being more of a musician, but from a purely listening angle, I can understand why many would have preferred solos.
Thankfully with the stems, people can mix it exactly how they want it anyway.
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No solos in the instrumental version of the CD included in the 3-disc collection? :huh: What the...? That was a mistake...
I was shocked to hear this as well. Moreso with the fact that I think this album has Petrucci's best solos overall on any DT album:
TSF solo over the TROAE riff
TBoT outro solo
Main RoP solo
Wither Brian May solo
TCoT outro solo
ANTR solos midway through are just face-meltingly awesome (especially the early wah solo...my gawd :hefdaddy).
Petrucci is an absolute BEAST on this album. More than any other album he's put out.
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How can you not like TDS?!
It's pretty average. Definitely the least good 12-step song.
Nah, that award goes to TGP
Are you on fucking drugs?!?!?!
Nope ;D Its just that after the intro riff and the arpeggios, the song loses a TON of steam and staying power.
In my opinion of course.
I have to agree with you, TGP is by far the most boring song in the 12-step-saga. The beginning is pretty cool, but then it's like 12 minutes left of not-that-interesting riffs. The vocal melodies are just totally uninteresting. One of very few DT-songs I don't manage to get in a good mood when hearing. The rest of the AA-saga is more to my taste, and TDS was the song that dragged me into Dream Theater in the first place.
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No solos in the instrumental version of the CD included in the 3-disc collection? :huh: What the...? That was a mistake...
I haven't listened to the instrumental disc, but I guess I never will. I never understood why they included it...
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Okay, this is my summary.
The album is brilliant from start to finish music-wise, (well, except for the middle of The Best of Times, by which I mean start of singing till end of singing, which is okay, but nothing special). The band make very few false steps the whole way.
Lyrically, A Rite of Passage, Wither, The Shattered Fortress and The Count of Tuscany are cool, and these are the tracks I’ll happily take away from the album.
Most DT albums have one track that approaches, if not makes my favourites, and this album’s one is Wither. (Which means the last three albums’ editions have been The Answer Lies Within, Repentance, and Wither, all fairly mellow songs).
The Count of Tuscany is pretty bad lyrically ‘on paper’, but seems strangely silly in tone, in a way that I quite like, so I can still enjoy it for that (the first thing that came to mind when I first heard this song was Flight of the Conchords’ Jenny). I really don’t like the whoah whoah whoah outro though, just unnecessary. I wish DT would stop forcibly giving their epics these OMG endings and just let the song end what I would call ‘naturally’.
The Best of Times is lyrically fairly clunky, enough so that I doubt I’ll bother listening to the song much at all (as has been pointed out on quite a few occasions in the past, lyrics seem to matter to me a bit more than most people). And then there’s A Nightmare to Remember, possibly the worst thing lyrically that DT have ever done, and thus rendered pretty much completely unlistenable.
So, better than a decent handful of DT’s albums, even with two tracks I don’t really care for.
However, I have to say, I’m not hugely interested in the album, and I’d say it’s simply cos I’m not listening to much of any metal at all at the moment. I might have listened to it 4, maybe 5 times. I mean, I could say something like “the album lacks spark”, but I don’t think that’s the case. I’m just in another place at the moment.
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Just finished listening to the album for the first time.
Allow me to express my impressions with a simple graph, accompanied by micro-reviews:
Track | Rating
ANTR **** A great,heavy album opener.
ARoP *** A little too bland, but great solos.
Wither **** Nice, powerfull ballad.
TSF ***** Has all the classic parts, great way to end the saga!
TBoT **** Kinda reminds me of Hollow Years, great ending solo
TCoT ***** Epic!
Album score:
9/10
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Pretty cool idea with that graph Valdor, would you mind if I used it too?
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So far I really like this album. Plus the version I bought at a local record store (Young Ones in Kutztown, PA) came with a free promo poster :D
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1st listen.
AWESOME
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On my second listen through now and this will be a grower. I very much like most of the tracks, but there's a lot here to digest and it's going to take a little while before I can really consume and analyze the bigger tracks. Overall though my impression is very positive. :smiley:
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I'm very satisfied with BC&SL, it met my every expectation except for the lack of unison solos, I really wanted a couple rapid ones there but anyway, it's all good.
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Me too, very satisfied. The guys in the band still manages to impress me by how different they get the next record they do to sound so different to the one they did before it. They truly progress in their own way.
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Track | Rating
ANTR *** A bit too heavy at times, but nice patches and solos.
ARoP *** A bit bland, but lovely to sing along
Wither ***** One of DT's best tunes ever, everything fits, emotional.
TSF **** Nice medley kind of thing, ending is lacking.
TBoT **** Emotional, and flawless (JP!) but very uncreative lyrics (sorry MP)
TCoT ***** Epic, a bit copy and pasted, but the music makes up for everything!
Album score:
8/10
Possibly a grower! But I love it already!
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i set my expectations for this album way too high. but they surpassed them! i love this album
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I can't get over how every chours on this album is so much freakin fun to sing along to..
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I can't get over how every chours on this album is so much freakin fun to sing along to..
This. Especially the middle part of ANTR.
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i put in CD3 of the SE and sang to all the songs. awesome
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The iTunes review for this album is hilariously bad. The reviewer thought TCOT is based on a Rush song.
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The iTunes review for this album is hilariously bad. The reviewer thought TCOT is based on a Rush song.
Because AllMusic is silly.
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Just had to re-post this quote from another forum because I thought it was funnier after I reread it than when I originally posted it:
I would liken listening to Dream Theater to eating a 5 course gourmet meal prepared by the executive chef of a five-star restaurant while riding Space Mountain at Disneyland.
:|
???
Wait...what?
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:hefdaddy :hefdaddy :hefdaddy :hefdaddy
You are correct, sir.
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Ah nevermind. Album is awesome after first listen.
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Track | Rating
ANTR ***** This is my new favorite heavy DT song.
ARoP ***.5 Good song, but gets old fast.
Wither **** Beautiful, great lyrics, but ...interesting subject.
TSF ***** James kicks ass on this track, and the reprises make me smile.
TBoT ****.5 Not a huge fan of the singing sections of the song, but the intro and outro make up for it.
TCoT ***** I LOVE THE LYRICS! They're hilarious! My favorite part, however, is the soft section near the middle.
Album score:
9.5/10
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At first listen it was good, but after a few more listens and really sinking my teeth into it i came to really love it. I'm putting it up as four behind SFAM, Awake and SDOIT. Great album none the less! :metal
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First time poster, long time fan of the band since I&W. The new album has exceeded my expectations. My fave album since SFAM.
Not sure if this was brought up yet or not (probably has) but for the people who bought the 3-CD limited edition, do you find the packaging to be pretty crappy? I am really not a fan of the CD's being in the cardboard sleeves, as it tends to scratch up the CD's. I guess it doesn't matter much, as I put all 3 CD's into my i-tunes/i-pod and will be listening to it from there. The biggest complaint I have with the packaging is that the 3 CD's seem to be pretty loose and have a tendency to fall out. Anyone else having that issue?
Steven
www.myspace.com/thesteepwaterband
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I have the opposite problem, actually. Mine are in so tight it is a pain to get them out without tearing the sleeves, scratching the CD's, or at least getting fingerprints all over them. I'm going to get a 3-CD jewel case and keep them in there instead.
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Too tight........ too loose..... are we talking about CDs here or.........
never mind :biggrin:
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Too tight........ too loose..... are we talking about CDs here or.........
never mind :biggrin:
You had Robert Plant's pants on your mind too?? :neverusethis:
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Not sure if this was brought up yet or not (probably has) but for the people who bought the 3-CD limited edition, do you find the packaging to be pretty crappy? I am really not a fan of the CD's being in the cardboard sleeves, as it tends to scratch up the CD's. I guess it doesn't matter much, as I put all 3 CD's into my i-tunes/i-pod and will be listening to it from there. The biggest complaint I have with the packaging is that the 3 CD's seem to be pretty loose and have a tendency to fall out. Anyone else having that issue?
Agreed. I dislike the packaging quite a bit. The way the cds can just fall out is annoying, and having the booklet stapled to the inside, to where you cannot take it out on its own to go through, was a terrible idea. Fortunately, the music more than makes up for it.
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Generally, I hate cardboard slipcases. They almost never make me happy. But the standard version is in a regular jewel case.
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I have the opposite problem, actually. Mine are in so tight it is a pain to get them out without tearing the sleeves, scratching the CD's, or at least getting fingerprints all over them. I'm going to get a 3-CD jewel case and keep them in there instead.
I meant the actual CD's in the cardboard cases fall out of the packaging easily. Sorry for the confusion.
www.myspace.com/thesteepwaterband
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i would like to see some input from the 4 people who voted this album 'never enough'
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I'm still confused as to what that option is, unless it's a lame jab at people who don't really like the album.
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i would like to see some input from the 4 people who voted this album 'never enough'
I wouldn't, they just whine about TCoT lyrics not being as profound as Sacrfied Sons and 8V, it hasn't touched them and they need to be touched..
:justjen
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I'm pretty sure if they were comparing lyrics, SS and 8VM wouldn't be high on the list.
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I'm pretty sure if they were comparing lyrics, SS and 8VM wouldn't be high on the list.
Oh I totally agree, I just mentioned those cause one of the people who whined about it actually gave those two songs as a comparison.
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As you can see by my post total I'm new here. I figure I'd throw my opinion into the ring as well.
Been a fan since I heard "Pull Me Under" many moons ago, and I must say I'm disappointed in the album. I am surprised by the number of people who consider this one of their best albums. I'm also surprised to see how many people here don't like WDADU, which I consider one of their best. With that in mind....
A Nightmare to Remember - Pretty good. The "relaxed" section in the middle is fantastic. Portnoy's vocals are awful. The instrumental section goes on way too long.
Rite of Passage - An actual "song". Seems the guys can write a complete song without going overboard. The song isn't great but isn't bad. Definite radio potential.
Wither - Rather basic ballad that we are all familiar with.
Shattered Fortress - This would have been a killer, and I mean killer, instrumental. Vocals from both Labrie and Portnoy ruin the song for me.
Best of Times - Hope Rush is getting some royalties off of this one. Opening "heavy" guitar riff is "Spirit of Radio" and the first verses are "Red Barchetta." Petrucci's solo at the end is, dare I say, average.
Count of Tuscany - The opening of this track is awesome! Very old school DT (i.e. Rush-esque). It transitions back into today's DT once it kicks in. Again Portnoy thinks he need to add "intense" vocals and again it sounds stupid. Nothing ground breaking once it kicks in. Very bizarre lyrics. Interesting breakdown into a Floyd sounding section, but all I can hear is "Octavarium" during the whole part. Love the feel to the end of the song, harkens back to "Learning to Live."
All in all Dream Theater has definitely plateaued. They seem to be reworking a lot of their previous outputs.
Overall it feels like a 5 or 6 out of 10 to me.
Thanks for your time.
T'ski
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Welcome to DTF T-ski, Mitch Hedberg fan?
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Welcome to DTF T-ski, Mitch Hedberg fan?
I am familiar with Hedberg, but not enough I guess to understand your question. I assume it's the sign off "thanks for your time."
And thanks for the welcome.
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I'm still confused as to what that option is, unless it's a lame jab at people who don't really like the album.
It's obviously the don't like it at all option; and it's not a lame jab.
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Uh...sure.
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Okay, I've heard the new album. Here's my quickie review:
Since We've Been Wrong - 5/5
Teflon - 5/5
Halo of Nembutals - 5/5
With Twilight As My Guide - 5/5
Cotopaxi - 5/5
Desperate Graves - 5/5
Copernicus - 5/5
Luciforms - 5/5
Okay, I've heard the new album. Here's my quickie review:
A Nightmare To Remember - 4/5 (The song just goes to shit after Mike starts singing... and it isn't even his fault, but they pick it back up at the end)
A Rite of Passage - 3/5 (Good verses and chorus, but the instrumental section is kind of a "what the hell?" type of thing)
Whither - 4/5 (Pretty sweet, but something's missing. I'm not sure what)
The Shattered Fortress - 5/5 (****ing amazing song. I don't understand why it's getting hate. Not only is it well put together, but it has such an epic feel to it and doesn't suffer really anywhere)
The Best of Times - 4/5 (Awesome song. I love how it has that sort of "Surrounded" feel to it. Though I do feel that it drags too much at the end)
The Count of Tuscany - 4/5 (Has a lot of awesome moments and is well put together, spare a few sections in the beginning, but I do feel like they tried a little too hard at the end, and instead of sounding emotional and epic, it dragged just a little too much to maintain that feeling properly)
Overall - 3.5/5 (or) 4/5. Can't decide which.
Favorite songs in order to greatest to least:
TSF, ANTR, TBoT, TCoT, Whither, ARoP
I'd say the albums kind of go like this now, for me:
I&W, Awake, WDADU, SDoIT, SFaM, BC&SL, FII, 8VM, SC, ToT
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Good music for the most part. However the lyrics are terrible, and way to clunky. Don't me wrong there are some high points but not enough for me to care. I can't stand lyrics that are squeezed in for the sake of it. oh well can't please everyone, I be looking forward to JLB's solo album if it ever sees the light of day.
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I find it interesting how there are passages on the album that sound like passages from old DT-related projects.
The beginning of "The Count of Tuscany" sounds like "Another Hand" and the bit before 'I am responsible!' in "The Shattered Fortress" sounds like "Paradigm Shift".
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I'm sure it will grow on me, and I'll find more things that I dislike, but will probably grow to like those, but out of what I can think off the top of my head of dislikes are:
The way James says: The Shattered Fortress. I don't know why, but it just kinda feels odd to me, it will probably grow on me.
Another thing, and this is probably due to speakers/not so hot equalizer settings(music isnt on my good mp3 player yet) But the guitar seems just a tad too loud, and sometimes over powers Jame's voice, and for that matter, the rest of the band.
But I still thoroughly enjoyed the one time I've listened to it.
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Not a fan of The Best of Times, but overall a very solid release. The Count of Tuscany is really great. We'll see how it ages over the next several listens. I had similar first impressions of SC and have since come to not like that album all that much. But my initial impression is the best album since SDOIT.
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KirksNoseHair really digs this album. I'd probably put it 4th in line after SFAM, SDOIT and I&W
I think it blows the doors off Octavarium and Systematic Chaos
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Yeah, you can blame ANTR for a lot of things (which isn't such a precise thing, because the song is very good as it is), but DT ripping themselves isn't one of them.
I'm not talking about the whole song but this is obviously a lost point on you anyway so enjoy your day!
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I have only had time to listen to it once. It's good for now, but with more listens I am sure I will like it even more.
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The beginning of "The Count of Tuscany" sounds like "Another Hand"
Dammit, you're right!
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What bums me most about BCSL is that DT doesn't seem to be able to write a song anymore without taking a huge dump on it in some section. There's the bad growling, the blast beats, the bad lyrics ....
Wither is really the only song where I'm not counting backwards to a cringeworthy section.
rumborak
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I had super high expectations for this new album, and its why I am disappointed. I really hope the album will grow on me because so far after 3 listens its towards the bottom end of the ladder. I'm also having a hard time grasping how others are rating this up there with the best.
A Nightmare to Remember - starts off really well, I loved the intro guitar riff, I liked the breakdown when the song gets slower as well. I liked everything about this opener except the way LaBrie delivers, "Life was so simple then," its weird, I don't like it. After the third time, Portnoy's growling doesn't bother me, nor do the blast beats. Portnoy uses The Glass Prison "Vinnie Paul inspired" double pass pattern, it sounds so good. This is my favorite track on the album by far.
A Rite of Passage - the intro of the guitar, I don't like it. The song is very repetitive and bland to me. The guitar solo is nice and 1st key solo, but that weird 2nd key solo is just, no.
Wither - such an emotional song, LaBrie's vocals shine here, everything is smooth and transitions well.
The Shattered Fortress - once Wither ended I was like ok its Portnoy's finale to his 12 Step Suite this is gonna rock! The song is completely recycled from other 12 Step Songs. Portnoy's growling in the beginning again doesn't bother me but the deep baritone voice near the end ruins it for me. To me a conclusion should repeat the message but sound fresh, that it didn't do.
The Best of Times - the Rush similarity its cool, nothing really stood out to me in this track negative or positive. I need to listen to this one more.
The Count of Tuscany - I love the lyrics, how did JP end up in Tuscany and visit royalties? He's crazy! I liked the slow section of the song but, I need more listens because the rest is still a blur.
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What bums me most about BCSL is that DT doesn't seem to be able to write a song anymore without taking a huge dump on it in some section. There's the bad growling, the blast beats, the bad lyrics ....
Wither is really the only song where I'm not counting backwards to a cringeworthy section.
rumborak
In my case, I have to make an effort not to allow the lyrics to bum me out too much. I agree that they're quite bad.
However, when I look past them, I find I enjoy the record tremendously. It's really delightful.
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I just finished my first listen of BC&SL. Maybe it's too early to say this but I think this album belongs in my top 5 favourite DT albums. Probably around 3 or 4, right behind SDOIT, 8VM and I&W.
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I must be one of the only ones who felt underwhelmed after even the first listen. Usually I'm pumped for new Dream Theater and even Systematic Chaos was exciting and stimulating the first time around. I just didn't get sucked in at all sadly.
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Up there with the best of them.
SFAM
I&W
Octavarium
Black Clouds
....
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up with the best
awake, sfam, i&w, bc&sl
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a lot of instrumental parts remind me of rush
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Hi guys. Been listening to Dream Theater since 2003. First post here.
I definitely enjoyed this album over the systematic chaos....however....It definitely was no Images and words or scenes from a memory. However, it was definitely a very coherent album albeit a darker more gothic one. Lyrically the album wasn't up to snuff a lot of the time....but It made up for it with some very great melodies. For example the slow section of nightmare to remember and a lot of Count of Tuscany.
I am of the opinion that Dream Theater could do without the MP growls....I know what they were going for but I just don't like it.
Overall it was a good album. Happy I purchased it.
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I had super high expectations for this new album, and its why I am disappointed. I really hope the album will grow on me because so far after 3 listens its towards the bottom end of the ladder. I'm also having a hard time grasping how others are rating this up there with the best.
Don't worry. That happened to me at first as well. I was really frustrated. But then I snapped out of it and just :2metal:
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Personally I think the order is
11) FII
10) SC
9) WDADU
8) Octavarium
7) Train of Thought
6) BCSL
5) 6DOIT
4) Awake
3) Scenes from a Memory
2) Images and Words
1) A Change of Seasons
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What bums me most about BCSL is that DT doesn't seem to be able to write a song anymore without taking a huge dump on it in some section. There's the bad growling, the blast beats, the bad lyrics ....
Wither is really the only song where I'm not counting backwards to a cringeworthy section.
rumborak
Well you should be used to it by now. That's been happening since SDOIT.
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Ive been listening to this a lot lately and its just such an emotional album which is a good thing. Since the songs are epics, there are all these parts where i just get the chills. This is def. the best release since SDOIT. Im so glad they released an album with so many epics which is the best part of Dream Theater.
I dont get pissed off at the lyrics like some of you. I think they are easy to follow like in the big epics, ANTR and TCOT. They take you in a wonderful journey.
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Honestly, I don't even think the lyrics on this album are all that bad. Boring and somewhat unexciting perhaps, but certainly not ear-cancer. I'd actually argue that The Count Of Tuscany has some of the greatest lyrics of Dream Theater's career (if we define "great" as "big," "bombastic," "ostentatious," etc).
The Best Of Times is genuinely moving and poignant, Wither is quite personal and appropriately understated, and The Shattered Fortress, while being somewhat constrained within the actual written 12 steps of AA, works reasonably well within that framework.
And, now that I've excised the hell out of Mike Portnoy's vocal contributions to A Nightmare To Remember, I find that song improved by a thousandfold. Really, A Rite Of Passage has the only lyrics I'm not too fond of, and even then, they're certainly not offensive.
Tl;dr: Lyrically, there's certainly no Lines In The Sand or Scarred to be found here, but that was never my concern to begin with.
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Haven't posted in a while. But this album is amazing.
Rakings:
1. Awake
2. BC&SL
3. SFAM
4. SDOIT
---------------Everything in between these two lines is sort of equal
5. SC
6. Images & Words
7. Octavarium
8. FII
----------------
9. WDADU
10. Train of Thought
A Nightmare to Remember: Best song on the album, and tied with The Glass Prison and Scarred for my favorite DT song. Amazing intro, amazing soft part. I even like the solos. And when the continuum reprises the main melody is one of my favorite sections of any song ever.
A Rite of Passage: My least favorite song on the album. Love all three solos, love the chorus; I actually like everything, but it just doesn't stand up to the other songs.
Wither: DT's best ballad. Plain and simple. Tied for second favorite song on the album.
The Shattered Fortress: Also tied for second favorite song on the album. Very close to being as good as TGP. Don't mind the transitions. Love the riffs. Love the keyboard, which I will talk about later in the post.
The Best of Times: In between AROP and the rest of the songs on the album. Love the introduction, the Rush-esque transition, and the outro solo. The lyrics don't bother me. But it doesn't hit me quite like the other songs do.
The Count of Tuscany: TIed for second best song on the album. Phenomenal introduction (although I keep expecting to hear the Another Hand key solo at the beginning) and everything after the volume pedal guitar part is jaw dropping. The guitar volume pedal part is my least favorite part of the entire album, and brings the song down for me. If it wasn't surrounded by such amazing music, TCOT would be ranked a lot lower.
General comments: Labrie is superb on the album (he is even better on the covers, but I'm not talking about those here). He is almost perfect. His performance actually ties that he gave on Awake, which I didn't think would be possible for him to do.
The lyrics aren't nearly as bad as people are making them out to be.
Now onto the keyboards. Awake (there's the comparison again) has always been one of my favorite keyboard albums. While Petrucci was riffing, Moore was playing melody lines around him. Dream Theater seems to have tapped into the same creative fountain on this. The majority of nonsolo nonvocal melodies in this album are taken by the keyboards. This lets the guitar riff underneath, giving the songs the balance of melody and metal which IMO makes Dream Theater such an great band. My favorite Rudess keyboard album, and quite possibly one of my favorite keyboard albums by any band.
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A Nightmare to Remember - Awesome song, the piano at the beginning is cool, the riffs throughout the song are awesome and the middle section is one of the best things they've ever done. The Portnoy bit I actually quite like and the ending of the song is pure epicness and amazing (continuum, blastbeats, guitar riffing). My favorite track from this album. 5/5
A Rite of Passage - Catchy chorus and the arpeggios in the second verse are awesome. The Petrucci solos are to be expected and the iPod bebot bit is pretty cool. Otherwise, it's not a track I'm rushing to listen to, but the edited version makes a nice single. 3.5/5
Wither - Pretty song, would make a good second single. I don't think it really stands out among the rest of the tracks, but it's pretty good. Cool solo, good use of wah, and nice Randy Rhodes doubling-style. 3.5/5
The Shattered Fortress - I think they tried to hard to use old riffs when they should have make them less obvious and been more clever with them, but I think it wraps up the suite well. I especially like how it comes full circle with the Glass Prison riff. Jordan's solo is quite cool, too. It's one of the better solos he's done in the past few albums. 3.5/5
The Best of Times - Great song, I really like the beautiful beginning and the Rush vibe it has. The violin is a very nicely added touch. The JP solo near the end is quite powerful. The chord progs in the song are also pretty creative. 4/5
The Count of Tuscany - Wow. WOW. The first four minutes are beyond amazing. I was singing the guitar parts the entire day. The chorus is catchy as heck. The middle with the volume swells is beautiful, and the end is quite awesome. Jordan really shines on this one, too. Actually, this showcases the entire band perfectly. The only weakness is the final chord, which I find to be terribly anticlimactic. However, it doesn't ruin this monster of a song. 5/5
I think this is the best Jordan has performed with DT since 6DoIT (thetoaster nailed it in his review). He was quite refined and added more to the songs rather than doing his own thing. This also houses an excellent collection of JP solos (which album doesn't?) and an even better collection of JP riffs! JLB sounds as good on this album as he ever has, really. He's definitely back. The best vocal harmonies DT's ever done are scattered throughout this album.
Overall, I think the ratings will improve with repeated listens. I think this easily trumps Systematic Chaos and Falling into Infinity, surpasses Octavarium and Train of Thought and is on par with 6DoIT, SFAM, Awake, and I&W. I wouldn't dare rank the albums until this has fully sunk in, though it's definitely top 5 material, maybe even greater.
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I just finished my first listen of BC&SL. Maybe it's too early to say this but I think this album belongs in my top 5 favourite DT albums. Probably around 3 or 4, right behind SDOIT, 8VM and I&W.
This. I think it's a bit more consistent than 8VM though. On that one, all the songs are good, but on BC&SL, all the songs are orgasmic.
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Alright, so here's my opinion after quite a few listens, i'm sure not many will agree:
1. A Nightmare to Remember - Absolutely my least favorite DT song ever. The song just drags on for so long, I never feel the need to listen to it. That's not to mention the even laughably bad parts (MP rap/growl?) and out of place instrumental section. Like most of the songs on the album, the lyrics are bad. The riffs sound like they were written by me in my junior year of high school. Not even the decent "In Peaceful Sedation" part is cool because the rest of the song is unbearable. I really despise this song. Rating - 1/10
2. A Rite of Passage - I didn't really like this when it came out and I still don't. It's got a catchy chorus, but that's really the only part I found cool. I'm not really sure what they were thinking with the JR keyboard solo either. Rating: 4/10
3. Wither - Now this is more like it. I really wish they would've written more songs like this, length wise that is. They don't try to do too much or overdo anything, and I think that's why it works so well. Nothing feels forced. Rating: 9/10
4. The Shattered Fortress - I can't really say much about this one. I love being able to recognize where all the parts are coming from, the altered riffs and (gasp) JR's keyboards solo. Yet, I don't think they added enough to this song to stand on its own, and some of the transitions feel forced. Rating: 6/10
5. The Best of Times - This is another song that I don't care for. I don't get emotional or inspired like I think I should from such a personal track and that has a lot to do with the poorly written lyrics. The music is very cheesy and boring to me. The only thing that saves the track for me is JP's guitar solo, which is absolutely brilliant, but unfortunately the only part I enjoy. Rating: 3/10
6. The Count of Tuscany - This is an unusual case where the bad lyrics actually turn out to be awesome. I think they add so much to the nature of the song and I love it for that. The first 11 minutes are typical Dream Theater (in a good sense) and nothing really seems out of place or drawn out for such a long song. When the acoustic guitar passage comes in after the more ambient section, I really do get the chills. I think this is an instant DT classic. Rating: 10/10
This is certainly quite a bit better than SC, but it still misses the mark for me. I think some of DT's best and worst material lies in this, which really makes me think they still have it. I think they can still do much better, even at this point in their careers. But maybe that's just me losing interest in my once favorite band.
Overall Rating: 2.5/5 (don't take it too harshly, 2.5-3 is usually my "average to good" album range.)
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It's definately not SC part II. It feels like it's about 45 minutes long, which I guess is good (time flies when your having fun). It feels a bit like story time, though not in the way SC had fiction in it, which is cool. I don't get the epic feeling out of Nightmare that I do with the other long songs, so the first three kind of seem like a warm-up for the big guns. I'm not ready to call it my favorite DT album yet, but I find that the vast majority of albums I buy get better the more I listen.
The big thing is that there isn't one song that I think "that kind of stinks" about. Each one has its own enjoyable features.
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I've already called my favorite Dream Theater album in a few years. I might even say of the decade
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Calling MP's vocals fantastic... don't you think this is at least a bit of an overstatement? His best backing vocals are at best OK, imo. His lead ones are never good or fitting or anything good, imo. Hence I find your comment on them (and the lyrics) off base :p
Opinions and tastes... such a mind-boggling thing. It would be really awesome if someone could explain why we all like/dislike a certain thing so much.
Thank god there is some sanity still in DTF.
I don't understand how anybody can call MPs vocals good. As you said it they're at best ok. And that's at the top of his gAme. Which sadly does not heppen always.
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Amazing album...Everybody shines, esp. Jordan Rudess, this is the album that put's down all the jordan rudess haters out there. Great patch selection, and kewl synth sounds.
Is it me, or does the vocals in The Count of Tuscany sound too loud, and the guitars sound quiet?
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Amazing album...Everybody shines, esp. Jordan Rudess, this is the album that put's down all the jordan rudess haters out there. Great patch selection, and kewl synth sounds.
Is it me, or does the vocals in The Count of Tuscany sound too loud, and the guitars sound quiet?
This to me is Rudess' most mature outing in terms of keyboard sounds
I didn't really notice that about Tuscany.
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I really love this album... I decided I'm gonna listen to it tomorrow morning as soon as I wake up on vinyl again. I think I've listened through the whole thing 5 times now, but some of the songs I've played more than that.
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After listening through the album for a couple of times, it has begun to sink in. All in all a really good record, although I'm not too excited about A Rite of Passage and Wither. AROP is somewhat saved by the groovy, solo sections, while Wither is just flat out boring. I don't get Portnoy's attemt at being Mr. Angry Man in ANTR, but otherwise, great stuff! There's a lot of amazing music on this disc, and I hear things both reminiscent of older days as well as DT anno 200x.
It's nice to get a record like this after the sub-par SC, and I'm thinking maybe I'll go see DT in concert again this time around. It has been a while.
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I'm just in the floyd section of COT for the 5th time.
album gets better with each listen, definitely like it more than I used to.
did anyone think though, on the shattered fortress, right after the whole ROAE, part, where it's like "Keep all of me..." that end note they held before going back to GP, was going to turn into the Razor's edge from Octavarium?
I may have to mix that, because it fits perfectly.
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I just realized that TCoT is their best album closer. I thought Octavarium was better with the Razor's Edge solo, but the main thing that changed my mind is that in TCoT, it is not only JP who shines, it is every member. JP solo is amazing, James' whoaaa is his best moment of the album, MP drums are incredible, JR sound is delicious and JM is, as usual, quite descreet, but so efficient.
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Octavarium definitely takes the cake for me personally. I believe Octavarium is the best song ever written.... I think
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Octavarium definitely takes the cake for me personally. I believe Octavarium is the best song ever written.... I think
I haven't said that The Count of Tuscany was better than Octavarium, because it is false. I don't think they can top the masterpiece that is Octavarium
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After listening to this album more and more, my prediction that this album is going to be a grower is coming true. This album just keeps getting better and better the more familiar I get with it. At first I didn't find anything great about TCOT but now it is SERIOUSLY growing on me. At first I thought this CD wasn't doing anything new, but the songwriting is very different on this album and I'm picking it up now. The way ANTR and TCOT tell stories are incredible. I really love the lyrics and the story they tell and how that blends into the musical scheme.
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I've been listening to it waaaaay to much the last few days, but it's so damn awesome.
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I've been listening to it waaaaay to much the last few days, but it's so damn awesome.
There's such a thing as too much? Since I got the album I've listened to it nearly 20 times apparently... it's a real grower for me.
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I've been listening to it waaaaay to much the last few days, but it's so damn awesome.
There's such a thing as too much? Since I got the album I've listened to it nearly 20 times apparently... it's a real grower for me.
I'll get sick of it when I keep listening to it this much :p.
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I've been listening to it waaaaay to much the last few days, but it's so damn awesome.
There's such a thing as too much? Since I got the album I've listened to it nearly 20 times apparently... it's a real grower for me.
I'll get sick of it when I keep listening to it this much :p.
Oh! That never happens to me :D I'm apparently slightly obsessive when it comes to listening to music... when I first heard dredg my last.fm registered 999ish plays in the first week.
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so count of tuscany is about hannibal lecter?
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I've been listening to it waaaaay to much the last few days, but it's so damn awesome.
There's such a thing as too much? Since I got the album I've listened to it nearly 20 times apparently... it's a real grower for me.
I'll get sick of it when I keep listening to it this much :p.
Damn, that's alot. Like 3 months ago I had 200 Anathema listens in a week, haven't really listened to them since :p.
Oh! That never happens to me :D I'm apparently slightly obsessive when it comes to listening to music... when I first heard dredg my last.fm registered 999ish plays in the first week.
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so count of tuscany is about hannibal lecter?
i think its just another factor that made petrucci lose it
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What mixing software are you guys using?
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*fourth listen'd*
...
...
...
Yup, still a great album.
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Damn! I just relaize that I haven't written my reactions. My bad!
It is coming soon...
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Okay, we are waitin ur post ;D
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Okay, we are waitin ur post ;D
hey,, your smile tells everything. :lol
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:p
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I woke up today, but didn't want to get out of bed. So I picked up my remote controller for my CD player and played Wither instrumental. It was heavenly... and I mean that in the most manly way possible.
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... and I mean that in the most manly way possible.
I...really don't think there is one.
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so count of tuscany is about hannibal lecter?
:metal
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Octavarium definitely takes the cake for me personally. I believe Octavarium is the best song ever written.... I think
I haven't said that The Count of Tuscany was better than Octavarium, because it is false. I don't think they can top the masterpiece that is Octavarium
They already did, several times before they even wrote it. :hat
-J
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My most common reaction:
"Holy crap, 75 minutes already? I just started listening to the album like 5 minutes ago, though... "
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My most common reaction:
"Holy crap, 75 minutes already? I just started listening to the album like 5 minutes ago, though... "
Yes, definitely the best aspect of this album. Leaves you craving more.
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Just thought that same thing again.
The Count Of Tuscany
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I haven't listened enough but it's somewhere between good and up there with the best of them. Definitely a marked improvement from SC, which I enjoyed.
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After many more listens I think I can safely place this album firmly in fifth place in my album rankings behind IaW, Awake, SFAM, and SDOIT. There is a small chance it could go a bit higher but I think it will stay where it's at. And considering the amazing calibre of the four albums I rank above it, fifth is not a bad thing by any means.
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albums grow on me...when i first heard SC, i hated it but after a few twirls it grew on me. i LOVE this album, so i can only envision me liking it more. i can't remember the last DT album that had this effect, maybe its the nostalgia of listening to DT music that "i don't know", but i rate this as the best DT album after a "first listen"
TSF is a beast of a song, COT too. unbelievable riffage
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got my 3 disc in the mail yesterday. This and the cover disc kick some serious ass
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I've finally managed to get MY hands onto BC&SL. 23rd and 24th were national holidays back in Estonia and new music arrived only today. I've listened it once and I'm listening to it for the 2nd time now. My opinion on the songs is as follows:
ANTR: It's a good opener, it has a dark mood to it, the lyrics are great and the middle calm section repeats itself in my head. It drags on a few minutes but overall I really like both the heaviness and the softness in the middle.
AROP: The beginning is flashy and as a single it is most suitable and probably very accessible.
Wither: Nice ballad, very easy to follow and JP solo suits well.
TSF: I'm not familiar with much of the 12step suite but the music is nice and I've heard TROAE which I was able to recognize in that song.
TBOT: Easily my favourite song off the album. It has an I&W feel to it, the lyrics are really touching, I don't care if they are straightforward. Every bandmember shines especially JR and JLB.
TCOT: I hope that it will grow on me because at the moment ANTR, TBOT and partially TSF overshadow it. The ending of the song is really funny, the story is almost like a parody of epic stories. I do like the solos of JP and JR background though.
Overall I think that the album is a lot better than SC, I was impressed very much by JR's playing and I like the vocal harmonies on many of the songs, they were carried out really well.
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Here's my review:
A Nightmare To Remember: The first half of the song is spot on. Heavy riffs and great melodies are present throughout. I especially like the "peaceful sedation" section. The instrumental section unfortunately drags on for a while, and that's just about the only gripe I have with this song. I don't even mind MP's vocals that much. It has a cool groove to it. Oh, and mp can has blast beetz. Rating - 7.8/10
A Rite Of Passage: I probably like this song more than most people. The chorus is awesome, to say the least; and the instrumental section of AROP is one of the best they've done in my opinion. The bebot solo is completely ridiculous, but I like it somehow. This is going to be a great live song. Can't wait to hear it. Rating - 8.2/10
Wither: This one took me by complete surprise. Wither has (ironically) the best lyrics on the album, which I feel the whole album is lacking slightly. The melodies here are fantastic, making it one of DT's best ballads. The highlight of the song is definitely the part where it's just James singing with JR playing piano (and the proceeding solo). Rating - 8.4/10
The Shattered Fortress: I really don't know what to say about TSF. It serves as a fantastic conclusion to the Twelve Step Suite, but as a stand-alone song it just doesn't do it for me. I was a little disappointed that there's a lot of cut-and-paste, but I can probably look past it. I'll give this song another month of listening and I'll review it again. Rating - 7.6/10
The Best Of Times: The fastest 10:00+ song in DT's entire discography. It actually feels like one coherent song (no long instrumental sections). The first half of the song is nice and happy, reminiscing of the times MP had with his dad. The second half is much more melancholy, talking about MP dealing with him dealing with his death and such. What follows is one JP's best solos he's ever done. Some people are complaining that the lyrics are bad, and I have no idea what they're talking about. This is a personal song, it wouldn't make sense to have lyrics that have to be rigorously interpreted to figure out the meaning. Rating - 9.6/10
The Count Of Tuscany: The opening instrumental portion is great, and reminded me of Rush for some reason. Then, the lyrics. Yes, they're hilariously bad, but they're so hilariously bad that it makes the song that much more awesome. We then move into the Pink Floyd section (by the way people, that's a guitar with a volume pedal, not a continuum), followed by the much talked about climax, which is very well delivered by James. A satisfying conclusion to a great album. Rating - 9.3/10
Final Rating (average) - 8.5
Definitely their best since Six Degrees.
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Pretty decent album.
song ranks:
The Count of Tuscany
The Best of Times
Wither
A Nightmare to Remember
A Rite of Passage
The Shattered Fortress
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My new favorite, for now at least. Everything about the past few albums that made people feel like DT were hopelessly abandoning their roots seems to be fixed. I'm sure this will be controversial but BCSL gives off the vibe of a new and improved Images & Words. Why? First of all I think this album shows the lighter side of DT that has been missing for a long time (the best of times, the count of tuscany intro). Also there's a lot of extremely successful experimentation such as the acoustic/clean guitar work (A nightmare to remember/the shattered fortress). The instrumental sections, for the most part, are more cohesive and really contribute to the songs. And JP's solos are tasteful, emotional, and memorable again instead of just flashy (wither/the best of times). They're tapping back into the same creativity and inspiration they had during I&W while also showing how they've grown since. I am extremely impressed with this album, and I think it will continue to grow on me even more.
My song rankings as of now (I'm sure they'll change):
1. A Nightmare to Remember (the heavy sections are some of their best. not only are the riffs awesome but the production makes the guitar sound even crunchier. and the acoustic section has some of the best vocal melodies/harmonies that DT has ever written)
2. The Count of Tuscany (the intro is absolutely awesome. i feel like this song, more than any others, displays continued evolution in DT's sound into an even mature band)
3. The Shattered Fortress (very cool how all the previous songs in the suite are weaved together. and the new riffs are also awesome. the "i am responsible part" gives me chills- one of the most epic parts in the album)
4. The Best of Times (very beautiful and uplifting song. awesome solo. this is another example of DT's continued growth)
5. Wither (powerful and beautiful. again, awesome solo)
6. AROP (I guess I'm already sick of this because I heard it before as a single and the instrumental section is one of the only moments I've found so far on the album that I don't like)
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Wow,
Seriously this cover disc is just wonderful.
" ooooooouu GIVE ME A GOOD GUITAR ! " :metal :metal
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I can't help but love it.
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My most common reaction:
"Holy crap, 75 minutes already? I just started listening to the album like 5 minutes ago, though... "
Yeah I'm going to be sticking with this one for a while
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Aside from A Rite of Passage and Wither, which are total throwaway tracks that rank in the bottom of DT's catalogue, I am pleasantly surprised. I'm sure my qualms with the album have already been discussed in this thread previously, so that's all I have to say.
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I think it might be better than
train of though
octavarium and
Systematic Chaos
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I think it might be better than
train of though
octavarium and
Systematic Chaos
Agreed. But learn to write young man.
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-D.T- and Dark Master were more awesome.
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Dark Master was just annoying. -D.T- is genuinely funny.
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Tenement Funster Solo = Badass ?
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Just got the album 2 days ago and i'm loving it so far! A nightmare to remember, the best of times and the count of tuscany have all given me chills.
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Excellent album. I'm very impressed overall. Can't wait for the next show!
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I am seriously addicted to this album! I've been a huge Dream Theater fan ever since 1992, and I think BC&SL is one of the best three albums they've ever done, along with Scenes from a Memory and Awake.
Here is how I'd rank the songs.
1. The Best of Times- One of the most beautiful songs they have written. I get chills every time I hear it, especially during the first three minutes. 10/10
2. A Nightmare to Remember- It's amazing how after all these years, Dream Theater can take you to completely new places with each album. This doesn't remind me of anything they've done before because it's actually gothic. And I agree with seemingly everyone that the "hopelessly drifting" parts are really emotional and dreamy. What's amazing is how a song this perfect isn't the obvious choice for #1 song on the album-there are 5 other strong contenders. 10/10
3. The Count of Tuscany- I actually think it contains the weakest chorus on the album, but the other parts of the song are magical and perfect, especially the opening 4 minutes and the Tales from Topographic Oceans-esque section at the 11 minute mark. It's the kind of exciting, epic track that makes me so proud to be a DT fan. 10/10
4. A Rite of Passage- I wasn't blown away with the single, but I loved the album version immediately. It has one of DT's catchiest choruses and most enjoyable instrumental sections. This is going to be so awesome live! 10/10
5. Wither- It took about three listens for this one to sink in. At first I thought it was kind of plain and corny, but now I absolutely love it. Usually Dream Theater's softest songs are melancholy and haunting, but this one is quite uplifting. 9/10
6. The Shattered Fortress- It does re-use a lot of old material, but it flows rather well and has some of the heaviest moments on the album, as well as a memorable ending. 9/10
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I'm just in the floyd section of COT for the 5th time.
album gets better with each listen, definitely like it more than I used to.
did anyone think though, on the shattered fortress, right after the whole ROAE, part, where it's like "Keep all of me..." that end note they held before going back to GP, was going to turn into the Razor's edge from Octavarium?
I may have to mix that, because it fits perfectly.
Lol, yeah; I got so excited because I thought ocatavarium was going to pop up, lol
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I'm just in the floyd section of COT for the 5th time.
album gets better with each listen, definitely like it more than I used to.
did anyone think though, on the shattered fortress, right after the whole ROAE, part, where it's like "Keep all of me..." that end note they held before going back to GP, was going to turn into the Razor's edge from Octavarium?
I may have to mix that, because it fits perfectly.
Lol, yeah; I got so excited because I thought ocatavarium was going to pop up, lol
Glad I'm not the only one.
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So I picked this up on saturday, after only hearing A Rite of Passage once (the video, which is actually really well done).
It's pretty good. It's really lol worthy though, The Count of Tuscany especially, really horrible lyrics. I don't like The Shattered Fortress that much, kind of a let down, I wasn't expecting anything epic, just something along the lines of any of the other AA tracks would have been fine for me. Anyway, I got the 3 disc edition, the covers are all really good, but I don't like JP's tone for Larks' Tongues. I was always looking for that cover of To Tame a Land, just never gave it much effort, so it's readily available to me now.
The instrumental mixes are just that, the instrumental mixes, I'll give it to some people who don't like James or whatnot.
Out of ten, I give it a 7.
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1. Awake 5/5
2. Train of Thought 5/5
3. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence 4.5/5
4. Images and Words 4.5/5
5. Scenes From a Memory 4/5
6. Octavarium 3.5/5
7. Black Clouds and Silver Linings 3/5
8. Falling Into Infinity 2/5
9. Systematic Chaos .5/5
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1. Awake 5/5
2. Train of Thought 5/5
3. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence 4.5/5
4. Images and Words 4.5/5
5. Scenes From a Memory 4/5
6. Octavarium 3.5/5
7. Black Clouds and Silver Linings 3/5
8. Falling Into Infinity 2/5
9. Systematic Chaos .5/5
How can you give Systematic Chaos a 0.5/5 ?! I mean it is not THAT bad...?
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I thought it was horrible. Like, I really do consider it to be one of the worst albums I've heard, especially compared to the rest of DT's catalogue. The only partly-salvagable songs are ITPOE Part 1 and Repentance. Part 2 is laughable. The Dark Eternal Night is in the top 5 worst DT songs. I'm not even going to mention Prophets of War. Ministry of Lost Souls is so by the numbers it is excruciating to listen to, and Constant Motion is just plain awful. All in all, that makes for the weakest album in their otherwise great discography.
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I thought it was horrible. Like, I really do consider it to be one of the worst albums I've heard, especially compared to the rest of DT's catalogue. The only partly-salvagable songs are ITPOE Part 1 and Repentance. Part 2 is laughable. The Dark Eternal Night is in the top 5 worst DT songs. I'm not even going to mention Prophets of War. Ministry of Lost Souls is so by the numbers it is excruciating to listen to, and Constant Motion is just plain awful. All in all, that makes for the weakest album in their otherwise great discography.
I mostly agree with you, in that SC was one of their worst, but keep in mind that even DT's worst songs are incredible compared to most hit songs from highly acclaimed bands. You have some very good points, but I wouldn't say SC is horrible by any stretch of the imagination.
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I thought it was horrible. Like, I really do consider it to be one of the worst albums I've heard, especially compared to the rest of DT's catalogue. The only partly-salvagable songs are ITPOE Part 1 and Repentance. Part 2 is laughable. The Dark Eternal Night is in the top 5 worst DT songs. I'm not even going to mention Prophets of War. Ministry of Lost Souls is so by the numbers it is excruciating to listen to, and Constant Motion is just plain awful. All in all, that makes for the weakest album in their otherwise great discography.
I see what you mean. I understand your hate for TDEN and Constant Motion, which are maybe the most mainstream metal songs they've ever written. But, for me, to say that it is one one the worst album I've heard would be extremely false.
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After only being a Dream Theater fan for a few months,i can honestly say they haven't released a bad album imo. Some definitely weaker than others though.
On to Black Clouds,imo it is on a par with Six Degrees as their best album of the 2000s. The Best Of Times is definitely the most beautiful song they've recorded imo. Had a lump in my throat while listening to it,especially during JP's epic guitar solo at the end. The other three epics are great too. Love Nightmare, Shattered Fortress was a great ending to the AA suite and The Count Of Tuscany,even at 19 mins,never got boring. A Rite Of Passage and Wither are great tracks too but are well overshadowed by the 'epics'. Overall another great DT album.
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What I dislike about SC is that, to me, it sounds like a collection of lower-end DT songs.
"In the Presence of Enemies" and "The Ministry of Lost Souls" are two lower-end DT epics; "Forsaken" and "Constant Motion" are two lower-end singles; "The Dark Eternal Night" is lower-end 'heavy' DT.
What makes the record their worst is this relentless piling of lower-end DT. I wouldn't call it one of the worst albums I've ever heard - because, to me, such status is reserved for the Nickelbacks of the world - but, when all the tracks bore me, the whole becomes unbearable.
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I dunno what discussions have been going on in this thread lately but I saw the thread up and around again so I thought I should drop by to say that after nearly a month and a half of BC&SL release IT'S STILL KICKING MY ASS SO HARD.
Yeah.
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I´ve been listening to at least half of Black Clouds´tracks since I got the 3 CD´s Special Edition.
I really liked the songs and initially I didn´t like the COVER songs...it just didn´t feel like DT.
But then I heard them more times and actually thought most of them were really cool...although have a weak conenction to the concept of the album.
Overall, I can say its one of their best albums...to me at least.
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SC is an excellent drinking/headphones album. Its guitar work is pretty profound when in a less-than conscious state.
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New to the forums, not new to DT or life, just turned 47 today. Been listening to DT since they started and prog rock in general since the '70's and I just finished listening to BCSL all the way through (the main disc) in anticipation of Friday's Toronto DT concert. I have to say that this album ranks in my humble opinion among their best, a stunning tapestry of songs when taken in their fullness and in a single listening. The best? Not quite but close.
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Somewhere between good and up there with the best of them. I'd call it better than good, but still not up there with IaW/SDOIT/SFAM. But a strong album. I put my short review in the BCASL discussion thread.
Those three are definitely my favorite DT albums!
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New to the forums, not new to DT or life, just turned 47 today. Been listening to DT since they started and prog rock in general since the '70's and I just finished listening to BCSL all the way through (the main disc) in anticipation of Friday's Toronto DT concert. I have to say that this album ranks in my humble opinion among their best, a stunning tapestry of songs when taken in their fullness and in a single listening. The best? Not quite but close.
Welcome, rev! :metal
-J
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i have come to the conclusion that if ANTR ended at 14:14, it would be perfect. for me at least
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i have come to the conclusion that if ANTR ended at 14:14, it would be perfect. for me at least
i have come to the conclusion that if ANTR ended at 16:10, it would be perfect. for me at least
:biggrin:
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Well I always know when I listen to a whole Full length album and at the end I say to myself dam its over already I know It's a pretty dam good album so It's right up there with there best for me!!!! :tup
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i have come to the conclusion that if ANTR ended at 14:14, it would be perfect. for me at least
i have come to the conclusion that if ANTR ended at 16:10, it would be perfect. for me at least
:biggrin:
well results may vary for some.
:sadpanda:
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i have come to the conclusion that if ANTR ended at 14:14, it would be perfect. for me at least
i have come to the conclusion that if ANTR ended at 16:10, it would be perfect. for me at least
:biggrin:
well results may vary for some.
:sadpanda:
I see what you did there.
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New to the forums, not new to DT or life, just turned 47 today. Been listening to DT since they started and prog rock in general since the '70's and I just finished listening to BCSL all the way through (the main disc) in anticipation of Friday's Toronto DT concert. I have to say that this album ranks in my humble opinion among their best, a stunning tapestry of songs when taken in their fullness and in a single listening. The best? Not quite but close.
Your 3 years older than me (Been there from the start too) Did you get the special edition if so you must be enjoying the covers I know i am!!!!
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I really like this album. Usually on Dream Theater album you have at least two songs that sounded rather similar, but not his time. Every song is different and specific in its own way, which is something I really like. It's progressive but still entertaining, and it still rocks.
A Nightmare to remember is one of my favorites. It took me some time to truly appreciate the solos, and I guess the part with Mike Portnoy on vocals grows on you after a while. His drumming is also great here. Lyrics are simple but honest, and really drag you into the story, especially in the slower part in the middle. 10/10
I consider A Rite of passage to be a good single, but not too clever in some ways. The lyrical theme is rather overused, and the transition from the instrumental section to the third chorus is too simple sudden. Despite these flaws, the chorus is very catchy, and Petrucci's solo is great. 8/10
Wither started to grow on me just recently. There are a couple of recycled melodies here and there (Ministry of lost souls vocal line), but overall it's a really nice ballad. I'm not a huge fan of the lyrics, but I guess they are OK. Fantastic vocal performance by James here. 9.5/10
The Shattered fortress closes the AA suite perfectly. The lyrics are great, especially the last couple of verses. What bothered me is the fact the chorus from Root of all evil kicks in too sudden. I don't think it was really needed, and seems like they added it just for the sake of being there. 9.5/10
The Best of times is a wonderful ballad. The first half is a lot of fun since it's reminiscent of Rush, but the second half almost brought me to tears. Once again, we have simple but honest lyrics. John Myung is great here. 10/10
And, finally, there's the masterpiece - The Count of Tuscany. This episode is flawless from beginning to the end. Even the lyrics excite me every time I hear this song. The chorus is incredibly infectious, and the harmonies are fabulous. My favorite part still has to be the Pink Floyd-ish break in the middle, with Ruddess delivering the goods. The ending is beautiful, too. 10/10
All in all, I would rank this album right after SFAM, I&W and Awake. Closely followed by Systematic chaos...
Overall grade: 9.5/10
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I think this album is great, The only issues i have is the sudden change to the "take all of me" part in the shattered fortress and the over use of those speech samples in a rite of passage.
i think the LOOK IN THE MIRRAGH!! part of the shattered fortress is one of the most awesome things ever. lots of balls and chunk.
and yeah some stupid lyrics but its funny so i'm cool with that.
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Well the album has been out awhile now and I still listen to parts of it (if not the whole album) daily. This album has aged MUCH MUCH better than SC. My initial reactions to the album was, "this could be my third favorite behind I&W and Awake" and I am starting to really believe that is the case. What I thought was the worse song, TSF, is becoming a really really awesome DT song for me. The intro and the end to TSF are just so awesome. TCOT is still not my favorite on the album although my friends tell me I am a moron for not thinking so, but I still very much enjoy it. ANTR is still my favorite, but AROP is getting more playing time since I thought it was a really good live song.
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It's up there with the best of em. Top 5 DT album.
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This album is aging very well with me. Definitely some of their best work, imo.
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It's good.
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I am still loving this album.
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Still firmly in 4th place for me.
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3rd place i reckon
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Still a solid #3 for me :tup
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Top album for me.
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Dropped from #4 to #5. I realized Systematic chaos is slightly better.
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It's a solid album, and the best of the "new DT".
That said, it can not displace I&W, Awake, SFAM or 6DOIT. And there's a good margin between them an BCSL.
rumborak
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Dropped from #4 to #5. I realized Systematic chaos is slightly better.
:|
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This album hasn't dropped any spots since I bought it. Solid #4 for me.
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Dropped from #4 to #5. I realized Systematic chaos is slightly better.
for reals?
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It's a solid album, and the best of the "new DT".
That said, it can not displace I&W, Awake, SFAM or 6DOIT. And there's a good margin between them an BCSL.
rumborak
Exactly.
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It's a solid album, and the best of the "new DT".
That said, it can not displace I&W, Awake, SFAM or 6DOIT. And there's a good margin between them an BCSL.
rumborak
Talk about hitting the nail on the head. I could not agree more. :tup :tup
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just gave it another spin yesterday, and it still continues to get better each time
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It's a solid album, and the best of the "new DT".
That said, it can not displace I&W, Awake, SFAM or 6DOIT. And there's a good margin between them an BCSL.
Perfect.
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Dropped from #4 to #5. I realized Systematic chaos is slightly better.
for reals?
Yep. SC is incredibly catchy and fun, absolutely nothing wrong with it. BC&SL was brought down by The Shattered fortress, in my opinion, which feels lazily constructed in some places. It's still a great album, though.
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its mediocre for me...it did the same thing the last three did for me....hooked me for a bit...then I couldn't make it all the way through...then I skipped to the "good one"....then I stopped listening to it entirely. It sits firmly in the bottom half of their catlogue for me.
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It's a solid album, and the best of the "new DT".
That said, it can not displace I&W, Awake, SFAM or 6DOIT. And there's a good margin between them an BCSL.
rumborak
I agree about the first three, but lately I've been questioning #4.
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It's a solid album, and the best of the "new DT".
That said, it can not displace I&W, SFAM or 6DOIT. And there's a good margin between them an BCSL.
rumborak
This. BC&SL stands at number 4 for me right now. Still an impressive album.
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its mediocre for me...it did the same thing the last three did for me....hooked me for a bit...then I couldn't make it all the way through...then I skipped to the "good one"....then I stopped listening to it entirely. It sits firmly in the bottom half of their catlogue for me.
The exact same thing has happened with the last three albums for me. Starts out good and I'm hooked a bit again, but then I lose interest in the album quickly. After that, there's one or two songs I specifically dial in to listen to.
I'm still on the fence whether this is a result of me just having grown tired of DT, or whether their last 3 albums are actually less enjoyable.
rumborak
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its mediocre for me...it did the same thing the last three did for me....hooked me for a bit...then I couldn't make it all the way through...then I skipped to the "good one"....then I stopped listening to it entirely. It sits firmly in the bottom half of their catlogue for me.
The exact same thing has happened with the last three albums for me. Starts out good and I'm hooked a bit again, but then I lose interest in the album quickly. After that, there's one or two songs I specifically dial in to listen to.
I'm still on the fence whether this is a result of me just having grown tired of DT, or whether their last 3 albums are actually less enjoyable.
rumborak
Well said, but, damn, me too. :-\
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All the songs except TCOT have stayed the same as far as listening and respect for them. They are good songs. TBOT is still up there as a really special song that I don't listen to often. Although TCOT has gone up quite a bit, the instrumentation and song structure is great, really evolved old-DT style writing, the lyrics are still pretty corny, but still fun.
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It's 'aight.
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I only listen to TCOT....The only song that keeps me interested in this album....
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It's still so good as the first time I heard it, although it doesnt feel as fresh as it did in the beginning.
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I didn't like it much when I first heard it (back in July), but I recently gave it a spin again and my opinion has improved... a little.
- A Nightmare to Remember - Biggest letdown evar. It starts so incredibly strong, but just spirals ever downward as it continues on. The song is a little too long and feels bloated, the transitions are too abrupt and thus it feels disjointed at times, and the lyrics are terrible. The music is good, but still not enough to save this.
- A Rite of Passage - This was my favorite off the album at first. It seemed a bit more cohesive than most of the other songs and while the lyrics aren't great, they don't detract from the song at all. As I've listened to it more and more, the WTF solo really starts to drag it down.
- Wither - Didn't care for it at first, but I think it's my favorite now. Just a nice, simple little song.
- The Shattered Fortress - At first, I thought it was the worst song on the album (ANTR now takes that spot), but I've learned to appreciate it a little more. The transitions still feel a little forced and it still seems like there's too much of the old songs and not enough new song. It feels forcefully patched together, which is too bad because this has improved the most on re-listens.
- The Best of Times - Really good song. Some may say the lyrics are 'saccharine' but I give props to them for having a lot of heart. I think everyone really puts in a good effort here and it shows.
- The Count of Tuscany - My least favorite of DT's 'epics.' Some good musicmanship, but that's really it, there's not much guiding it here. The lyrics are laughably bad and, unfortunately, I end up focusing on them whenever I listen to this. It does get a little better each time I listen, but it doesn't hook my like Octavarium, ACoS, and ItPoE did.
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Still a solid #3 for me :tup
This.
1 Awake
2 Images and Words
3 Black Clouds & Silver Linings
4 Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
5 Scenes From a Memory
6 Train of Thought
7 When Dream and Day Unite
8 Systematic Chaos
9 Falling into Infinity
10 Octavarium
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This album gets so much better for me every time I listen. When I first heard it, it was probably 4-5th favorite DT album. Now, I sometimes catch myself thinking that it's my favorite DT album before reminding myself that there's Scenes, Awake, and Images and Words.
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I'm still baffled how people can even think that. Even Scenes, which I don't look too highly on, has its ambitions and goals achieved higher than what was finalized on Black Clouds.
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I'm still baffled how people can even think that. Even Scenes, which I don't look too highly on, has its ambitions and goals achieved higher than what was finalized on Black Clouds.
Yeah, same here. I'll say 6DOIT, as well.
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I'm still baffled how people can even think that. Even Scenes, which I don't look too highly on, has its ambitions and goals achieved higher than what was finalized on Black Clouds.
It's definitely not a "thinking man's" metal album if that's what you mean by ambition. What it is and what I think it does extremely well as is an album that I can really throw on "whenever" and thoroughly enjoy. The musical aspect of it is just too good. Even though I don't like the lyrics that much, I find that BC&SL's music has plenty of "hooks" to catch you as well as the depth that makes things even more exciting once you know the songs well. I guess it's like what some people were talking about in that one Opeth thread. I'm finding I can really appreciate this album a lot now that I know it inside and out.
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I'm still baffled how people can even think that. Even Scenes, which I don't look too highly on, has its ambitions and goals achieved higher than what was finalized on Black Clouds.
It's definitely not a "thinking man's" metal album if that's what you mean by ambition. What it is and what I think it does extremely well as is an album that I can really throw on "whenever" and thoroughly enjoy. The musical aspect of it is just too good. Even though I don't like the lyrics that much, I find that BC&SL's music has plenty of "hooks" to catch you as well as the depth that makes things even more exciting once you know the songs well. I guess it's like what some people were talking about in that one Opeth thread. I'm finding I can really appreciate this album a lot now that I know it inside and out.
I actually feel you on that. Well put.
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Yep, it's still a really good album. I can get past some of the lyrics being weak because the music is very strong. I never got completely addicted to this record to where I had to listen to at least once a day for months on end, like I did with I&W, Awake and SFAM, but it is easily their most enjoyable DT record since 2002. This CD is already aging nicely, and should settle in nicely as mid-tier DT studio record. :tup :tup
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I'm still baffled how people can even think that. Even Scenes, which I don't look too highly on, has its ambitions and goals achieved higher than what was finalized on Black Clouds.
Ambitions and goals are great and all, but quality and actual result are more important. Scenes was ambitious in terms of making a concept album, but it just isn't that well-done. Where BC&SL doesn't try much that's particularly new or outside DT's comfort zone (bar a couple of things), but what it does it does very well. I can't really see what's so hard to understand about that.
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I'm with those that appreciate it. I think P.C. summed it up nicely in his post. Not their best album, and the lyrics may not be as deeply poetic as on some earlier albums, but still and incredibly solid, enjoyable album.
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I've listened to some of BC&SL with my dad in a car a couple of days ago. I think I played Wither, then The Shattered Fortress. He couldn't believe it was the same band, because the two songs are incredibly different. I guess that just shows how diverse BC&SL is, which is always good.
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I still listen to it regularly - I have my favorite songs being AntR and TcoT but the whole album is just so enjoyable. Like everyone said it isn't their favorite but it certainly is right up there. Nothing beats Scenes for me (and I doubt anything ever will), but they really struck gold on this record. Lyrics are cheesy but 'good' cheesy...unlike the previous record where I find it really difficult to listen to.
A couple of my friends were unable to enjoy DT until this album which they both think is quite awesome. So that's telling in itself, it makes DT more approachable while still conveying that classic DT style.
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There is no good cheesy.
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Yes there is.
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Ptitlethsq3mffp09i?from=Main.SoBadItsGood
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Every time someone links to tvtropes, 10 other people lose 2 hours of their lives.
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.
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Every time someone links to tvtropes, 10 other people lose 2 hours of their lives.
So true.
:lol
I think that TCoT has taken the spot of my favorite DT song. Its playcount exceeds all other songs on my iPod by 40.
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i love the album it sounds really great. i love the concept of the album more then any other dream theater album. i love the really emotional songs like wither, the count of tuscany, and the best of times. a rite of passage is really good as well.
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Sh...should we tell'em guys?
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Tell 'em what?
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The album is great. But that's it. I think the main problem with it its lack of innovation. Like MP said, it's a classic Dream Theater album that includes all the elements that they've been known for, but that's the problem. It's like a blend of ToT, Octavarium and Systematic Chaos. I enjoy listening to the album, but nowhere as near as I enjoy listening to SDOIT.
That's what DT needs. Innovation.
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That there's no concept in Black Clouds.
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That there's no concept in Black Clouds.
Disagree. I's the "Twist Ending" album.
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I don't think he was referring to the album as a concept album, but rather to the mentality behind the music.
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That there's no concept in Black Clouds.
Disagree. I's the "Twist Ending" album.
:corn
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That there's no concept in Black Clouds.
Thought so. They didn't have a concept in mind when writing it, and it sure as hell isn't a concept album (yes, I want to avoid that old debate as much as anyone), but the idea of every cloud having a silver lining is one that just happened to follow through a fair chunk of the album, hence the title. But I wouldn't really call it a concept, not even to the extent of Octavarium.
(tl;dr version - I agree, but what he said isn't entirely without basis. Just mostly)
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Oh man. Where this thread is going verifies my insanity regardless of the Octavarium stunt.
::gets all insecure::
Right guys!?!?!?!!?
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That there's no concept in Black Clouds.
Thought so. They didn't have a concept in mind when writing it, and it sure as hell isn't a concept album (yes, I want to avoid that old debate as much as anyone), but the idea of every cloud having a silver lining is one that just happened to follow through a fair chunk of the album, hence the title. But I wouldn't really call it a concept, not even to the extent of Octavarium.
(tl;dr version - I agree, but what he said isn't entirely without basis. Just mostly)
It's a concept, but not a concept album.
It's the same way that using a film to develope a social commentary about society is a concept. It's an idea, of sorts.
inb4incomingshitstorm
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After more listens I find I really like the mood of the songs. from the transition in ANTR into the part where the characters crash and the sirens come in. AROP the "Bound by open honor" part, all of Wither. just the whole mood, it's like falling into infinity.
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It's a concept, but not a concept album.
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That there's no concept in Black Clouds.
Thought so. They didn't have a concept in mind when writing it, and it sure as hell isn't a concept album (yes, I want to avoid that old debate as much as anyone), but the idea of every cloud having a silver lining is one that just happened to follow through a fair chunk of the album, hence the title. But I wouldn't really call it a concept, not even to the extent of Octavarium.
(tl;dr version - I agree, but what he said isn't entirely without basis. Just mostly)
It's a concept, but not a concept album.
Pardon my usual inability to articulate my thoughts, but that's what I was trying to say :lol I'm firmly in the "DT only has one concept album" camp. :)
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Score is a concept album about Dream Theater's career.
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Score is a concept album about Dream Theater's career.
Yes. Jamshied Shariffi is Kevin Moore in disguise.
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the really emotional songs like ... the count of tuscany
This made me chuckle :lol
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Score is a concept album about Dream Theater's career.
Yes. Jamshied Shariffi is Kevin Moore in disguise.
Nah, Moore is the long haired guy you see standing at the very front with his hands on the stage head banging and seeming to really enjoy the show.
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the really emotional songs like ... the count of tuscany
This made me chuckle :lol
Haha I missed that. And I'd definitely call Black Clouds thematic instead of conc-
* gets sniped *
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It's a concept, but not a concept album.
It's the same way that using a film to develope a social commentary about society is a concept. It's an idea, of sorts.
inb4incomingshitstorm
No it's not. It's an accident.
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Nah, Moore is the long haired guy you see standing at the very front with his hands on the stage head banging and seeming to really enjoy the show.
Cool, looks like I'm not the only one who noticed that guy. ;D
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Score is a concept album about Dream Theater's career.
Yes. Jamshied Shariffi is Kevin Moore in disguise.
Nah, Moore is the long haired guy you see standing at the very front with his hands on the stage head banging and seeming to really enjoy the show.
Kind of like on the Images tour.
Oh wait..
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Nah, Moore is the long haired guy you see standing at the very front with his hands on the stage head banging and seeming to really enjoy the show.
Cool, looks like I'm not the only one who noticed that guy. ;D
That guy is the equivalent of the Japanese guys having a good time in L@B.
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the really emotional songs like ... the count of tuscany
This made me chuckle :lol
Yeah it sounds weird but I think the second half of the song is pure brilliance built on sheer emotion, too bad the first half doesn´t lead smoothly and coherently to the conclusion.
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Well, what can I say about BC and SL today?
ANTR, TCOT and The Shattered Fortress survived until today...
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the really emotional songs like ... the count of tuscany
This made me chuckle :lol
Yeah it sounds weird but I think the second half of the song is pure brilliance built on sheer emotion, too bad the first half doesn´t lead smoothly and coherently to the conclusion.
Oh I know what you mean, the vocal delivery in particular gets very emotional, and the music does somewhat as well. But the lyrics are the least emotional thing ever :lol
Though I disagree that the first half doesn't flow into the second.
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im obsessed with the count of tuscany.. its bad lol
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im obsessed with the count of tuscany.. its bad lol
The song or your obsession?
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im obsessed with the count of tuscany.. its bad lol
The song or your obsession?
Obviously he means the obsession
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Obviously he means the obsession
Way to ruin my fun. :P
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Obviously he means the obsession
Way to ruin my fun. :P
:-*
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Well, what can I say about BC and SL today?
ANTR, TCOT and The Shattered Fortress survived until today...
But I thought that everyone survived?
:neverusethis:
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Well, what can I say about BC and SL today?
ANTR, TCOT and The Shattered Fortress survived until today...
But I thought that everyone survived?
:neverusethis:
Roar?
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BUMP
Interesting to read this as ADTOE is a little over a week away from coming out.
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lol my opinions
nice bump, jamesmang.
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I think I originally voted "up there with the best of them" but now I'd say "it's OK".
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Yeah, I didn't say it in here, but I remember saying it was my absolute favorite at the time. That was some sheer fanboyism.
Nowadays, it's not nearly as good IMO. It does have a top 5 song in TCOT, and TSF is awesome on all fronts, with Wither being a gem as well, but the other 3 songs are average to below average. Only certain parts of the other 3 are really good, namely Beautiful Agony and the solo in TBOT (a top 5 JP solo for me, ironically).
Ranking:
TCOT
TSF
Wither
TBOT
ANTR
AROP
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It's good. Better than Awake....
TCOT
TBOT
ANTR
TSF
AROP
Wither
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Oh, let's rank the albums as well:
1. SDOIT
2. TOT
3. 8VM
4. IaW
5. Awake
6. BCSL
7. FII
8. SFAM
9. SC
10. WDADU
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1. SDOIT
2. FII
3. SFAM
4. I&W
5. TOT
6. BCSL
7. AWAKE
8. 8VM
9. WDADU
10. SC
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It has aged on me in a mixed way. Wither and The Count of Tuscany have grown on me a lot. TSF and TBOT haven't aged differently, AROP is still in the bottom of the album, and ANTR hasn't aged well for me, except for the Beautiful Agony part.
My opinions?
-The Count of Tuscany is the best song off SC/BC&SL. Even with the over the top lyrics.
-The Best of Times' solo is still a top-5 Petrucci solo for me.
-I'm really happy that ADTOE has 9 tracks. I never liked BC&SL having only Six Songs. Yes, they're long, but it still feels short to me, and unlike Six Degrees (Third best DT album IMO), the songs are not as varied.
-Wither is better than Forsaken. Forsaken has a better solo, though.
-This is the album when I realized the trade-off solos were getting stale.
When I heard it the first time I thought it was a definite improvement over Systematic Chaos but it was slightly less better than Octavarium. Still think that.
Current Rankings on the Album?
-The Count of Tuscany
-Wither
-A Nightmare to Remember
-The Best of Times
-The Shattered Fortress
-A Rite of Passage
Current Rankings on the Discography?
-The Triad of Masterpiece-
1. Awake
2. Images & Words (Almost tied with Awake)
3. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
------------------------------------------------------
-Amazing Albums-
4. Scenes from a Memory
5. Octavarium / Falling into Infinity
------------------------------------------------------
-Very Good Albums-
7. Black Clouds and Silver Linings
8. Train of Thought
------------------------------------------------------
-"Good" Albums-
9. Systematic Chaos
10. When Dream and Day Unite
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I wasn't here when this thread came about, so I figure I'll post my "reactions" now. #fashionablylate
1. A Nightmare to Remember: One of the album's best tracks and also the album's least consistent track. Not much I can say here that hasn't been said before, but I'll say it anyway: the first 8-9 minutes of this song are completely kickass. The first third, had it been more fleshed out, would be a solid contender for DT's best ultra-heavy tune, rivaling The Glass Prison and This Dying Soul, and the second third is pure proggy bliss. Things start to fall apart at the 9-minute mark: after a shaky transition into a completely unnecessary solo trade-off section over one of the least exciting riffs in DT's catalogue, we go into a reprise of the gothic theme from the beginning, and into one of DT's worst moments, MP's rap-growl-roar thing. I hate it on the studio track, but from what I've seen on Youtube it's even worse live because MP apparently thinks this is the most BA thing the band's ever produced. I don't have to tell you guys about how silly "Everyone survived roar" is, so I won't. (The riff which follows at 12:06 is the exception to the larger rule of the third act: I LOVE this riff and wish I'd heard a little bit more of it in the song.) From there, it's the DT epic-by-numbers: you've got your reprise of the original riff (though thrown into a different time signature for The Sake of Prog), a reprise of the (admittedly killer) chorus, and instrumental wankery to end. Anyway, had DT found a better transition to a more concise instrumental, this would undoubtedly be a new DT classic. As it stands, it's a great song that isn't great all the way through.
2. A Rite of Passage: DT on autopilot and the album's worst track by far. Make a brief sketch of a typical 8-minute DT song (which for most will look like extended intro-verse-chorus-slightly modified verse-chorus-super instrumental-chorus one more time for good measure), and you've got this song. There is absolutely nothing notable about this written-in track.
3. Wither: Now that's more like it. A not necessarily mind-blowing but nonetheless beautiful ballad featuring some haunting lyrics. (Kind of funny how the song which isn't about anything other than writing lyrics (or failing to write lyrics, as it were) has the best lyrics on the album, huh?) Great tune.
4. The Shattered Fortress: MP was tired of the AA saga at this point, and it shows. Now, the saga wasn't a complete failure, as we got The Glass Prison and This Dying Soul out of it, but it was definitely a mistake. A single "epic" track would have been much more effective in retrospect; even throwing in a fifteen-minute piece on Octavarium covering steps 6-12 in a concise manner once MP realized how big of an undertaking the suite would otherwise be would have been preferable to doing the suite as it was initially envisioned and filling the latter half with uninteresting, seemingly contractually-obligated music. The suite as a whole is a bit confusing; you've got four of DT's heaviest tracks mixed in with Repentance. Had it been a concept album, it would have been lambasted for its lack of dynamics and excessive repetition both musically and lyrically. Played live in its entirety, it would surely tire out the musicians long before the end of the hour set. I like to refer to the AA saga as Dream Theater's great failed experiment, and if you ask me to rank the songs in order of quality, I will always put them in chronological order (and not by coincidence).
Having said that, DT could have gone two ways with this one: they could have composed an original piece which, if nothing else, could bring something new to the proverbial table while reprising some familiar themes, which all the previous parts succeeded in doing, or they could have redone every slightly notable theme in the saga with only minor variations to make for some sort of big finale. They unfortunately chose the second option, and The Shattered Fortress is a jumbled mess of riffs and themes which, had it been a completely original piece of music without the rest of the saga to back it up, would make absolutely no sense structurally. As it stands, it still doesn't make that much sense structurally. It is INCREDIBLY disappointing to recognize that literally every second of this song (apart from the fade-in intro and Responsible's spectacular verse, which is in my mind this song's claim to fame) is at best inspired by and at worst directly copied from another produced and released song just comes off as lazy. It's ineffective as a piece of music, as a conclusion, and as a song, and the power of the final verse keeps it from taking the title of "Just Plain The Worst Song" from A Rite of Passage, BC&SL's other "Black Cloud".
5. The Best of Times: The undisputed best track. A great tune from the incredibly musically interesting beginning to the ending solo, one of JP's best. This is a ballad of extended length which is shockingly NOT ruined by an out-of-place instrumental, and thank the heavens for it. Lyrics are a little sketchy at times, but it's not a song-ruining thing (see below). A top-ten DT song and the best non-Octavarium thing to come out of DT's post-6DOIT era.
6. The Count of Tuscany: A difficult song to review. There's the intro, which is a work of proggy genius. After four minutes or so we fall into the main groove of the song's first act, which is decidedly less proggy and genius. Then the lyrics start. Much has been written about the lyrics, and I get the lyrics' irony and how it's just a fun song that doesn't take itself seriously, but I can't do it. These are lyrics of a song-ruining caliber (the worst offender is "making me uptight, no accident", I find). Seriously terrible, and after that genius introduction I expected something a little bit more weighty or clever than "This guy is scary with his wines and bearded brother, he's definitely going to kill me and eat me, oh wait no he's not", and even then the lyrics . And had the music underneath these lyrics been exceptionally interesting, I would have easily forgiven the sin, but it's fairly standard stuff (as DT's stuff goes). A pretty simple riff under a pretty simple chord progression in a pretty simple verse-chorus structure, really (though the chorus mentioned in that verse-chorus structure is probably the first half's best part). Then we get to the volume swells, pretty cool stuff, but nothing revolutionary. Acoustic verse is melodically interesting but once again the lyrics sort of devalue the entire thing. The music underscoring and following the song's final verse is really quite interesting, but all things considered after listening to this song I just feel like something's missing. I feel like I listened to DT attempting to write a game-changing epic along the lines of A Change of Seasons or Octavarium without having a game-changing lyrical or musical concept, and that's basically what I did. It's a paradoxically lyrically-based song with no real lyrical progression and a largely instrumental epic with few really engaging riffs. On the whole, it's a good song. There's no disputing that. It's just not a great song, and if you're going to devote 20 minutes and the coveted album-closing spot to a song, it should be, right? It feels sort of unfinished and weird.
On the whole: It's a good album. A seriously good album and the band's best since Train of Thought. But its best songs are seriously fundamentally flawed: Nightmare has some fatal structural issues and some of MP's most embarrassing input and The Count of Tuscany's attempt to marry a heavy thematic instrumental with unquestionably silly lyrics is just short of being a complete failure. But where this album wins, it wins HARD. (Conversely, where it loses, it loses hard. Really hard.)
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This album aged like milk for me. I loved it and thought it was their best album for the first few months, but now i rarely listen to it and it usually bores me all the way up to TBOT and TCOT.
Song rankings
1.TBOT
2.TCOT
3.ANTR
4.TSF
5.AROP
6.Wither
Album rankings
1.Six Degrees
2.Falling into Infinity
3.Awake
4.Systematic Chaos
5.Images and Words
6.Scenes From A Memory
7.Train Of Thought
8.When Dream And Day Unite
9.Black Clouds & Silver Linings
10.Octavarium
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I've only actually listened to this album 3 times in full.
Don't get me wrong it's a good album, but imo their weakest.
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I listened to A Nightmare To Remember the other day. It got pretty boring pretty fast. This song did not need to be 16 minutes long. Maybe 10. Beautiful Agony is still good, and I like other pieces here and there, but it really is the clearest example of what I've come to dislike about the band over the last few releases.
I still like Shattered Fortress up til the ROAE reprise, then it's like they stopped trying to do anything new with the song. A while back, I made an edit that cuts out the keyboard solo entirely (transitions from the Repentance reprise right into the TDS mellow part) and I think it works much better.
A Rite Of Passage bores me.
The Best Of Times would have been fine if they'd ended it around the 7-minute mark. I've noticed all the parts that make me cringe happen after that. The solo just seems kinda cliched now. I still enjoy the Rush opening I guess.
Wither is fine. Good song.
The Count Of Tuscany is also a good song. I still like the intro and outro a great deal, and I never understood how anyone could possibly be offended by the lyrics/vocals. No real complaints here, just confusion with regards to why the rest of the songs aren't like this.
Overall, this album really hasn't aged well for me. It seems overindulgent and aimless, like they didn't really know what else to do. Mostly it's just frustrating, because I know they're all capable of doing some truly awesome stuff when they're inspired to.
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things
Excellent assessment. Thanks for articulating what I feel. :)
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I listened to A Nightmare To Remember the other day. It got pretty boring pretty fast. This song did not need to be 16 minutes long. Maybe 10. Beautiful Agony is still good, and I like other pieces here and there, but it really is the clearest example of what I've come to dislike about the band over the last few releases.
I still like Shattered Fortress up til the ROAE reprise, then it's like they stopped trying to do anything new with the song. A while back, I made an edit that cuts out the keyboard solo entirely (transitions from the Repentance reprise right into the TDS mellow part) and I think it works much better.
A Rite Of Passage bores me.
The Best Of Times would have been fine if they'd ended it around the 7-minute mark. I've noticed all the parts that make me cringe happen after that. The solo just seems kinda cliched now. I still enjoy the Rush opening I guess.
Wither is fine. Good song.
The Count Of Tuscany is also a good song. I still like the intro and outro a great deal, and I never understood how anyone could possibly be offended by the lyrics/vocals. No real complaints here, just confusion with regards to why the rest of the songs aren't like this.
Overall, this album really hasn't aged well for me. It seems overindulgent and aimless, like they didn't really know what else to do. Mostly it's just frustrating, because I know they're all capable of doing some truly awesome stuff when they're inspired to.
I don't see you around here much, so I hope to see your assessment of ADTOE in the appropriate thread. I enjoy reading your opinions.
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things
Excellent assessment. Thanks for articulating what I feel. :)
Yeah, I realized after posting that what I wrote was unnecessarily long. Definitely took a page from A Nightmare to Remember's book right there.
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I had this in the car the other day and something dawned on me. I really hate the way MP's drums sound on this album, the toms don't sound too great on fills, especially in ANTR. I just am not a fan of drum production on this album.
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Current Rankings on the Discography?
-The Triad of Masterpiece-
1. Awake
2. Images & Words (Almost tied with Awake)
3. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
------------------------------------------------------
-Amazing Albums-
4. Scenes from a Memory
5. Octavarium / Falling into Infinity
------------------------------------------------------
-Very Good Albums-
7. Black Clouds and Silver Linings
8. Train of Thought
------------------------------------------------------
-"Good" Albums-
9. Systematic Chaos
10. When Dream and Day Unite
this is exactly how I feel.
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I had this in the car the other day and something dawned on me. I really hate the way MP's drums sound on this album, the toms don't sound too great on fills, especially in ANTR. I just am not a fan of drum production on this album.
I loved the drum sound on the album, the drumming itself is pretty bland though.
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I don't see you around here much, so I hope to see your assessment of ADTOE in the appropriate thread. I enjoy reading your opinions.
Thanks, likewise. I'll see what I can do.
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1. A Nightmare to Remember didn't age very well for me, but I still like it quite a lot. Yes, despite the wankery...
2. A Rite of Passage aged a little better for me, but it was always the weakest song in the album for me. Still, solid song, in my opinion.
3. Wither was a great hit with me back when the album was released and has aged quite well, I must say. Still a great song as far as I'm concerned.
4. The Shattered Fortress grew on me quite dramatically. Originally I did not like it much, but over the past couple of years I came back to it constantly, always finding better things about it. Right now it's probably my favourite AA song.
5. The Best of Times didn't age at all for me. It was a great, beautiful song when it was released and held up perfectly.
6. The Count of Tuscany. Definitely Top 10 for me, possibly top 5 (and I'm talking just songs here, not exclusively DT). A masterpiece, unless the lyrics really bother you, which is not my case.
So all in all, I'd say I still like BC&SL quite a lot, even in comparison with their other albums. Not my favourite, but definitely up there.
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I thought very highly of this album when it came out and I still think it's thier third best behind Images and Words and Awake. I find myself listening to it more than any other DT album lately.
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Their best album since Six Degrees. Top 5 best albums by them. Loved it when it came out, and still do. I have a feeling my appreciation of it will grow even more in the context of ADTOE.
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VERY interesting to read the first page of this thread.
I remember when I first listened to BC&SL, I was somewhat unimpressed overall when I got to TCOT, but I was pretty floored by that song: it alone managed to inflate my opinion of the album quite a bit simply by being the last thing I heard, I think. It's the only song from BC&SL that I ever feel the urge to listen to anymore, the rest of the tracks have some good parts sprinkled throughout a lot of not-good. Still probably better than the three efforts before it.
I&W
Awake
SDOIT
FII
SFAM
WDADU
BC&SL
8VM
SC
ToT
-J
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All the songs on the album have aged like milk for me. Maybe Wither and The Count of Tuscany I'd listen to sometimes and The Shattered Fortress is much fun to play on the guitar, but a bad song anyway.
Ranking of songs on the album:
1. Wither
2. The Count of Tuscany
3. The Shattered Fortress
4. A Nightmare to Remember
5. The Best of Times
6. A Rite if Passage (one of the all time lows in DT's discography if you ask me)
While we're at it:
Album rankings:
1. Images & Words
2. Awake
3. Falling into Infinity
4. Metropolis Pt. 2: Scenes from a Memory
5. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence (continuous albums lols.)
6. When Dream And Day Unite
7. Systematic Chaos
8. Train of Thought
9. Octavarium
10. Black Clouds & Silver Linings
There you have it, it's at the bottom.
Yeah, my list is like a downward spiral through time, let's hope A Dramatic Turn of Events will be good ;)
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A Nightmare to Remember - I think that it's got one of the best DT intros I've heard (which is everything). Beautiful agony is great too. The rest drags it down so much though.
A Rite of Passage - I won't skip it, but I never really go to it.
Wither - Same as AROP. I actually think that Wither is way overrated. I just think that it should be quieter, seeing as it's a ballad, but it's such a noisy tune.
The Shattered Fortress - Still love it, except for the silly spoken word section.
The Best of Times - Don't get the hate. But I don't love it. It's okay.
The Count of Tuscany - I really overrated this track early on. It's not that great. It's just okay. I mean, the intro and outro are gold, but the rest is just meh.
Overall, like I said before, BCSL was a top 4 album now in the bottom 3.
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It'll be interesting to see how ADTOE stands the test of time because BC&SL just doesn't hold up for me as I haven't played it in a long time and I don't really have any interest in doing so either. =\
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It's one of my 2 least favorite DT albums (the other one being SC), although I enjoy each one of their albums quite a lot so I consider it okay.
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This was my first "new" DT album since I became a fan in 2007 after the release of SC. I had high expectations for this one, and I was really excited when it came out. I ranked it as #4 on my DT album list (after I&W, SFAM, and 6DOIT), but it quickly got stale and nowadays I barely listen to it anymore. I listened to AROP way too much when it was released as a single, so I got tired of it pretty quick. The highlights for me are ANTR, Wither, TBOT (I can totally relate to the lyrics, and I love the music), and TCOT is a great song. TSF is not one of my favourites at all, and AROP is a catchy song, nothing more. Now the album is somewhere in the middle of my album list (although I much prefer it to SC).
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I like BC&SL. Good album with some amazing parts, but also has a few parts that either havn't aged that well, or I was always a little not sold on. I think the biggest issue is only having 6 tracks, and most of the songs having parts that range from excellent to fairly standard. This means if you aren't feeling a particular song or songs, there isnt to many other options to go to..
ANTR - Always liked it, and still do, just think the section after beautiful agony could have been shortened, and had another song added to the playlist. But overall, I like it
AROP - Cool, nothing breathtaking, but nothing completely horrible either. quite good in concert actually, but just a fairly standard song.
Wither - Meh, its okay, but as far as power ballads go, fairly forgettable for me - From the sounds of the ballad snippits on ADTOE, I think they are going to show just how standard Wither actually is..
TSF - Now, I was a bit more into the others at first, and sort of dismissed this song, but funnily, it has been the one song on this album that for me has aged well, and I am constantly finding new things I like about it all the time..
TBOT - Odd one for me. Love the rush intro, and acoustic guitar, but the main theme has always sounded very 'Aladdin' to me, and i have never been able to get fully past that. It is quite epic sounding, but it's also one I dont have a huge urge to listn to all that often..
TCOT - I love the Count. Awesome song, great intro and outro, but I actually love the dreamy music through the middle too. Easily the album highlight.
So overall, Very much like The Count, ANTR and TSF, while the others tend to be just okay for me, which illustrates my overall issue with the album - with only 3 out of 6 songs im a big fan of, there isn't really that much music overall to listen to. I honestly feel by cutting some unnecessary parts from some songs, adding another track, and maybe an instrumental, that this had the potential to be stunning. Not quite there, but from the snippits, ADTOE has me pumped..
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-I'm really happy that ADTOE has 11 tracks.
Someone's going to be disappointed. Will you tell him, or shall I?
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-I'm really happy that ADTOE has 11 tracks.
Someone's going to be disappointed. Will you tell him, or shall I?
Shhhh. When the album comes out, we'll just make him a copy that has Far From Heaven split into a 3 part suite. 11 tracks. No need to crush his dreams.
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I wasn't here for this thread originally, but for me, BC&SL is definitely down in my ranks from where I put it when I first heard it. Now, my rankings are as follows:
1. SFAM
2. I&W
3. SDOIT
4. Awake
5. FII
6. BC&SL
7. Octavarium
8. WDADU
9. TOT
10. SC
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-I'm really happy that ADTOE has 11 tracks.
Someone's going to be disappointed. Will you tell him, or shall I?
Shhhh. When the album comes out, we'll just make him a copy that has Far From Heaven split into a 3 part suite. 11 tracks. No need to crush his dreams.
:lolpalm:
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I wasn't here for this thread originally, but for me, BC&SL is definitely down in my ranks from where I put it when I first heard it. Now, my rankings are as follows:
1. SFAM
2. I&W
3. SDOIT
4. Awake
5. FII
6. BC&SL
7. Octavarium
8. WDADU
9. TOT
10. SC
Same for me.
My ranking:
1) Scenes From A Memory
2) Images & Words
3) Awake
4) Six Degrees Of Inner Turbulence
5) Train Of Thought
6) Systematic Chaos
7) Octavarium
8) When Dream And Day Unite
9) Black Clouds & Silver Linings
10) Falling Into Infinity
In the beginning BC&SL was around the 5th-6th spot I think
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I like BC&SL. Good album with some amazing parts, but also has a few parts that either havn't aged that well, or I was always a little not sold on. I think the biggest issue is only having 6 tracks, and most of the songs having parts that range from excellent to fairly standard. This means if you aren't feeling a particular song or songs, there isnt to many other options to go to..
ANTR - Always liked it, and still do, just think the section after beautiful agony could have been shortened, and had another song added to the playlist. But overall, I like it
AROP - Cool, nothing breathtaking, but nothing completely horrible either. quite good in concert actually, but just a fairly standard song.
Wither - Meh, its okay, but as far as power ballads go, fairly forgettable for me - From the sounds of the ballad snippits on ADTOE, I think they are going to show just how standard Wither actually is..
TSF - Now, I was a bit more into the others at first, and sort of dismissed this song, but funnily, it has been the one song on this album that for me has aged well, and I am constantly finding new things I like about it all the time..
TBOT - Odd one for me. Love the rush intro, and acoustic guitar, but the main theme has always sounded very 'Aladdin' to me, and i have never been able to get fully past that. It is quite epic sounding, but it's also one I dont have a huge urge to listn to all that often..
TCOT - I love the Count. Awesome song, great intro and outro, but I actually love the dreamy music through the middle too. Easily the album highlight.
So overall, Very much like The Count, ANTR and TSF, while the others tend to be just okay for me, which illustrates my overall issue with the album - with only 3 out of 6 songs im a big fan of, there isn't really that much music overall to listen to. I honestly feel by cutting some unnecessary parts from some songs, adding another track, and maybe an instrumental, that this had the potential to be stunning. Not quite there, but from the snippits, ADTOE has me pumped..
A lot of this post sums up how I feel about the album, especially the small number of songs and trimming some sections to make room for a 7th track.
I've always loved TCOT and really enjoyed ANTR after a few listens. AROP, Wither and TBOT have always been weak for me. The only song where my feelings have changed a bit is TSF. I was disappointed with it at first because I was expecting something totally new, rather than a sort of summary of the previous parts of the suite, but it's grown on me quite a bit.
This was really their first album to come out since I became a big fan of the band (I wasn't listening to them that much before Systematic Chaos came out) and I was a bit disappointed. I guess if I'd voted in this poll when it initially came out I'd have voted for 'It's O.K.' and that's still pretty much how I feel about it.
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To be honest, not a huge fan of it.
Sure, A Nightmare to Remember is good, and The Count of Tuscany has an amazing start, but falls short of what I would define as "epic".
My ranking would be more like:
1. I&W
2. SFAM
3. Awake
4. SDOIT
5. ACoS
6.ToT
7.Octavarium
8.WDADU
9.BC&SL
10.FIF
11.SC
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Um, I dunno, I don't love it, but it's a good album with all good songs, a couple of them being great.
ANTR has a lot of great moments; I dunno if it warrents 16 minutes worth, but it's well worth at least 10. Definitely one of the better HEVY METHVL DT tunes.
AROP is pretty groovy. I don't dig the chorus, but the rest is good. Nothing specacular.
I feel about the same for Wither. It doesn't do a lot, but is good.
TSF is better than the last 2 and succeeds at what it does, which is wrapping up the 12 step suite. I prefer the other movements, but when the others are as good as they are and TSF still succeeds as an epilogue in their context, you've got a good song there.
TBOT is excellent; it's very Rush-like, has the best lyrics on the album, and really makes great use of the softer side of DT. If I had to list my top 10 songs from 6 Degrees onwards, it just might make it. It'd definitely make it on a 10 ten for TOT onwards, though.
And finally, TCOT is the epic it's hyped up to be. Like TBOT, a lot of wonderful soft stuff, though the HEVY METHVL is around, as well. Like ANTR, it does work quite well. I also love the lyrics; definitely show that JP has a sense of humor, a good one at that. Probably a top 10 song right there.
My ranking would go like this:
1. Awake
2. 6
3. 8
4. I&W
5. FII
6. TOT
7. BC&SL
8. SC
9. WD&DU
10. SFAM
Though I say it's a very good album, and has 2 amazing tunes, it doesn't quite stack up to my top 5. Even though I feel I&W and FII have lower lowpoints than BC, they also have many defining DT songs, and lots of great to go around. I feel TOT and BC are about at similar levels of goodness.
Both have 2 huge, awesome, songs at the end, following a few really good tunes with some greatness. I'd say Vacant+SOC is about = to TBOT, same for ITNOG and TCOT. I give TOT the nod, because as great as ANTR is, TSF is not as good as TDS, which is about equal with ANTR, and overall, TOT's first 4 just make for more interest than BC's. Though it's a really close comparison. And they both are very good, often great, albums.
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TBOT [...] has the best lyrics on the album [...]
lol?
-J
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Wow, I can't believe this thread is still here. With that said,
Final Verdict:
1.)Scenes From a Memory
2.)Six Degrees
3.)Awake
4.)Black Clouds & Silver Linings
4.)Images and Words
Fucking LOL
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TBOT [...] has the best lyrics on the album [...]
lol?
-J
Okay, it has my favorite lyrics on the album. I dunno which song would have the best lyrics, objectively.
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I don't think any lyrics in BCSL are bad tbh.
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Black Clouds has aged pretty well for me, though. It's nothing special, but it's certainly something you can pretty much just throw on when you don't know what to listen to.
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I don't think any lyrics in BCSL are bad tbh.
This.
Black Clouds has aged pretty well for me, though. ...it's certainly something you can pretty much just throw on when you don't know what to listen to.
And that.
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alot of people hate TCOT lyrics, I actually like them. It's a personal experience JP went through, I wouldn't expect some Shakespeare poetry here.
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alot of people hate TCOT lyrics, I actually like them. It's a personal experience JP went through, I wouldn't expect some Shakespeare poetry here.
This. Plus, you know, it's not meant to be dead serious. I don't see why DT (or any artist, really) should be expected to have no sense of humor; even Neil Peart threw in a joke here or there.
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alot of people hate TCOT lyrics, I actually like them. It's a personal experience JP went through, I wouldn't expect some Shakespeare poetry here.
This. Plus, you know, it's not meant to be dead serious. I don't see why DT (or any artist, really) should be expected to have no sense of humor; even Neil Peart threw in a joke here or there.
Exactly.
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Images
Awake
Scenes
Octavarium
Six Degrees
FII
Black Clouds
Train of Thought
WDADU
Systematic Chaos
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alot of people hate TCOT lyrics, I actually like them. It's a personal experience JP went through, I wouldn't expect some Shakespeare poetry here.
This. Plus, you know, it's not meant to be dead serious. I don't see why DT (or any artist, really) should be expected to have no sense of humor; even Neil Peart threw in a joke here or there.
Even if TCOT was meant to be tongue-in-cheek the way it was presented never really leads itself to that unless you really, truly want to believe that it is supposed to be a joke. In a vacuum the Portnoy/Labrie tradeoffs in the "Let me introduce..." section might lend to a bit of humor but this is the same album where the exact same gruff tone was used in two songs (ANTR, TSF) concerning more serious subject matter so it's hard to tell if it was intentional all along or merely "after the fact".
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It is pretty interesting to see the initial reactions. I like every Dream Theater album but I was disappointed with this one from the start. I began to like it more over time. I love long songs but I would have rather had some of them trimmed down to fit a few more songs on the record. It felt like they were going through the motions to me and like they felt obliged to make multiple 10 minute plus songs when they could have been cut down to 7-8 minutes. That is just my opinion though.
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BC&SL turned into one of my most cherished DT albums only after moments of getting it... From the opening track on, I was just hooked. I am a fan of their more metal sound, so generally, most of the album spoke to me. I can understand how some of fans that are more prog oriented were turned off, though.
There isn't much to be said about the album that hasn't already been said, but I enjoy every aspect of every song, even including the lyrics. (Though, some were a little cringe-worthy on the first couple of listens)
Initially, the tracks that just immediately stuck on me were.. Well, every song besides The Best of Times, which was more of an acquired taste that I ended up enjoying. But, everything that DT put into the music felt like it should be there, and every song on the album felt like it should be there aswell, in my opinion.
It's right in the top of my list, under Awake, Images & Words, and SFAM, maybe even surpassing SFAM?
I'd give the album a 8.5/10
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I would like to change my "It's up there with the best of 'em" option to the "It's OK" one.
-
Awake
I&W
SFAM
6DOIT
Octavarium
FII
WDADU
SC
BC&SL
TOT
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Album hasn't aged too well with me. I still give it frequent spins, but it's just ok overall. I understand people who complain about the quality of the lyrics, but that has never really been a big beef of mine. I usually don't even pay attention to lyrics. I care about the hooks, melodies, arrangement and structure. I do however get a bit nit picky on the phrasing of the lyrics. In this regard DT has gotten a little sloppy in the last few releases, but it's just a minor nit pick.
The main flaw I find with the newer albums is the poor song flow and structure. They still have all the technical wizardry and jaw dropping virtuosity of their early days, but the focus seems to be lacking. Songs move from one section to the next arbitrarily with rough transitions. TCOT has the most outstanding intro they've created in over a decade but it just ends and doesn't go anywhere, the song feels like a lot of great ideas stitched together without any real goal in mind, yet I still rock out to it. ANTR suffers from the same thing.
TBOT is the only track that bucks this trend and comes together quite nicely. It may be a little overlong, but considering the context of the backstory it seems appropriate.
In the end, I try not to take it too seriously and can still enjoy it in the moment.
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It's weird - I only really (really) like ANTR and The Count, but I still think of this album as one of the better ones. I don't know why. The parts that are good are simply awesome. The rest is ok. It was like a breath of fresh air after SC. I guess what I'm saying is that I like the album because of the atmosphere it creates, although I'm not crazy about a majority of the songs.
Same thing with 8vm, come to think of it.
For the new one, I'm really hoping that the songs themselves are killer.
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I do NOT like BCASL at all actually. TCOT, ANTR and TSF are all cringe-worthy songs, especially the first two. Don't hate me, but it won't grow on me no matter how hard I try to like it. I like ADTOE much more, even though I've only gotten through the first few tracks. A change was due and the result is great!
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I don't think any lyrics in BCSL are bad tbh.
I guess the problem I have with it is that the DT album which gets the most spins from me is Images and Words. I instinctively relate Dream Theater to poetic, graceful lyrics. It's hard to go from "The smile of dawn..." to "Now wait a minute man..." Thing is, I don't even have a problem with all of their literal lyrics. SFAM is nothing exceptional like I&W, but it just doesn't seem as clumsy and graceless as something like TCoT. Most of the album just seems lazy in that department. I wonder why the band seems to have been collectively deteriorating, lyrically, since FII. I hardly expect the same thing from every album, but I'd like to really see some effort put into painting pictures rather than just relating experiences.
Black Clouds and Silver Linings was one of the more unpleasant experiences I've had with a Dream Theater album, but the trouble is I haven't listened to it enough to give it a fair assessment. Unlike many people posting in this thread, lyrics really do get in the way for me, but there's more to it than that. Every song on this album--save Wither, which is very listenable but also quite boring to me--has incredible moments. Trouble is, those moments are surrounded with a lot of uninteresting stuff. The album can be unnecessarily aggressive, I guess.
One thing I will say is that The Best of Times is a good song. I like it. I just can't bring myself to listen to it very much. As for The Count of Tuscany? If I could sit through it without laughing, I might listen to it more often, but I'd rather invest my 19 minutes in something I can take seriously. The fact that my two favorite songs here elicit this reaction just goes to show how "meh" my impressions of this album are. I need to listen to it more, but I know it will never, ever be "up there."
Since everyone else is doing it:
1. Images and Words
2. SFaM
3. Awake
4. WDaDU
5. Octavarium
6. FII
7.SDoIT
8.ToT
9. BC&SL
10. SC
Yep. The first six are albums I keep going back to, consistently, that hold my interest even when I binge on them. The middle group...there are a couple of songs on those albums that are great, but the albums as a whole certainly far from perfect. The last group, meh. I don't listen to them. But even if I did, they would, at best, trade spots with each other (the same is true of the other two groups--they're very close to each other, but not to albums in other groups). BC&SL doesn't even seem to exist in the same universe as those first six. Weird thing is SC has two songs I love (Forsaken and TMoLS), but it's not nearly as consistent as BC&SL. Too bad BC&SL is consistently meh.
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BC&SL has aged poorly for me, I loved it at first 'cause of all the hype and it was my first DT release and all that. Now I'd say it's one of their bottom albums.
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I actually really like this album and the only song I don't really like from it is TBoT. I feel like the reason I rank it lower than the rest of the albums is because there are only 6 songs. If there were more songs on the album I probably would've liked it more.
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I still like BC&SL, and it's still a top 5 or 6 DT album for me. The 4 big songs are classics IMO, and Wither is a good song. AROP is ok; I do not like it in context of the album, but it's still ok.
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I listened to this album back to back with ADTOE at the gym this morning and two things struck me:
1. BC&SL still sounds pretty damned good. I always considered it an album that was "In The Top 5" and -for me at least- I think it's aged well.
2. I think the criticism about how ADTOE sounds is overblown. My albums are all ripped at 320kbps and I listen with these ear buds (https://www.bose.com/controller?url=/shop_online/headphones/audio_headphones/in_ear_headphones/index.jsp), and while there was definitely a difference between how BC&SL and ADTOE sounds, it wasn't all that.....dramatic (https://www.kirksnosehair.com/Portals/0/images/smilies/eusa_dance.gif) to me.
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I listened to this album back to back with ADTOE at the gym this morning and two things struck me:
1. BC&SL still sounds pretty damned good. I always considered it an album that was "In The Top 5" and -for me at least- I think it's aged well.
2. I think the criticism about how ADTOE sounds is overblown. My albums are all ripped at 320kbps and I listen with these ear buds (https://www.bose.com/controller?url=/shop_online/headphones/audio_headphones/in_ear_headphones/index.jsp), and while there was definitely a difference between how BC&SL and ADTOE sounds, it wasn't all that.....dramatic (https://www.kirksnosehair.com/Portals/0/images/smilies/eusa_dance.gif) to me.
It's funny that you mentioned this... I was just listening to both in my car (7 speaker, 1 sub system) and I agree both that BC&SL ages well and ADTOE does sound better than most let on. I was particularly listening to the drums being that they receive the most criticism from the lack of proper leveling with the others.
Oh, and those head phones have changed my life... It's impossible to use anything else.
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Yeah, I actually left them at work on day last week and had to revert back to the plain old vanilla iPod earbuds and I was horrified at how bad they sound :|
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So my opinion of BCSL went from it being a top 4 album to it being pretty terrible.
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To me, it ended up at number #7, but it used to be in top 5. It's still really, really good, though. :metal
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middle of the pack, wouldn't recommend the album as a whole to anybody (as I would I&W if this were 15 years ago, or SFAM at any time). I would recommend some of the songs (count of tuscany, maybe rite of passage; ANTR is ruined by the MP vocal section).
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Black clouds was a pretty mediocre album. It wasn't the worst, or one of the worst 2, but it certainly wasn't very good. Nightmare is a top quality song, the guitar solo in Best of Times is unbelievably good and one of Petrucci's best. Rite of Passage and Wither were god awful. I had to check the CD booklet to make sure that I actually purchased a DT album and not something else. Shattered Fortress wasn't BAD, it was just a bunch of other riffs that I had already heard in other songs, thrown together to make sausage. Count of Tuscany was and continues to be pretty lame. It has decent guitar solos-- I'm fine with almost all the guitar work on the album actually-- and ends well minus all that WHOA WHOA nonsense, but the lyrics are just the worst I've ever heard from ANY band in ANY genre, and there are a bunch of other depressing moments I won't rehash.
So yeah, the album isn't the worst, as it has a fantastic song and an even better epic guitar solo, and great riffs sprinkled throughout the album, but it's certainly nothing to write home about, and I absolutely hated Rite of Passage and Wither. Usually they only have 1 song like that on an album. In this case it was a wasted 14 minutes.
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My feelings:
This album, stylistically, is very similar to its predecessor. And while that's not something to be all the excited about, something about Black Clouds seems so much more refreshed and energetic. Lyrically, it's not fantastic but it doesn't stick out like the sore thumb a'la Systematic Chaos. Musically, it's the best thing the band have done since Six Degrees.
Final Verdict:
1.)Scenes From a Memory
2.)Six Degrees
3.)Awake
4.)Black Clouds & Silver Linings
4.)Images and Words
6.)Train of Thought
6.)Octavarium
8.)Falling Into Infinity
9.)Systematic Chaos
10.)When Dream and Day Unite
My Review: https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=2336.0
DISCUSS
Just for clarification... You think that BCSL is equally good as Images & Words?
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Just to clarify, you won't be hearing from him anytime soon. He's banned. lol.
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Just to clarify, you won't be hearing from him anytime soon. He's banned. lol.
For that opinion? lol
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Naw, for other things.
lol
lol
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I still like this album quite a bit, but almost every song has a part I wish were different or simply not there:
A Nightmare to Remember - do I even have to say it?
A Rite of Passage - the songs seems out of gas already by the second verse; it picks back up during the instrumental section, but that second verse is a snoozer.
Wither - this is fine as is (although it would have a hard time even making my top 50)
The Shattered Fortress - that keyboard solo should be chucked in the abyss.
The Best of Times - Some of the lyrics are extremely weak and awkward, which is a shame considering the subject matter. Musically, it is stellar.
The Count of Tuscany - The "I" part during the choruses I can do without. And I still wish minutes 4-9 were nearly as good as the rest of the song.
A Dramatic Turn of Events was a major upgrade over BC&SL, and I am thrilled that they seem to have gotten back to writing concise songs, even the longer ones, that don't have parts or sections that make me wonder why they are there.
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I'd even forgotten there is an album like that. Sad but true. Probably haven't listened it for a while, like 1 year.
When it came out I love it, then I was starting to like it, like it less, less and less. TCOT is the highlight point of the album. Wither is my second favourite. TSF and ANTR are OK. I can live without the rest.
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I still think it's great. Aside from TBOT and TSF, which I've never been all that into, I can still listen to any of the rest any time. ANTR still sounds as fresh and energetic as ever, and the instrumental intro of TCOT still slays me every time. Some of the best instrumental work they've ever done hands down.
I think BCASL's biggest weakness is just the long songs. If you don't like a couple of tracks, it's a relatively big chunk of the album gone. Not as much of a problem to not like a couple of tracks when the album has 10+ tracks.
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Just for grins I tried to listen to it today. i say tried, because it's just so bad that I couldn't get through a single song without cringing and skipping to the next song. Usually the albums I don't like have at least one song I can listen to. BCSL doesn't have one good song on it, imho. Thank goodness adtoe is as good as it is. Gives me hope.
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Just for grins I tried to listen to it today. i say tried, because it's just so bad that I couldn't get through a single song without cringing and skipping to the next song. Usually the albums I don't like have at least one song I can listen to. BCSL doesn't have one good song on it, imho. Thank goodness adtoe is as good as it is. Gives me hope.
I hear where you're coming from. I think Nightmare is an excellent track though. None of the other tracks is excellent.
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Im lovin this album so far and i think it is their best since six degrees
SFAM
SDOIT
I&W
Awake
BC&SL
ToT
FII
SC
OCT
WDADU
god damn...
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I loved it from the start and routinely listened from start to finish at a nice loud volume in my house on my own :)
I definitely preferred it so SC but now I think that bar the last two tracks, it suffers similar problems.
BC&SL definitely has better production than SC though.
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I like most of the tracks on the album, despite their flaws. However, it says something when I pull out the cover disk and the instrumental disk more often than the actual album.
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A Nightmare to Remember - A cool song to put on every once in a while. Suffers horribly from everything after the Beautiful Agony section. The intro is one of DT's best.
A Rite of Passage - Can't ever see myself listening to this ever again.
Wither - Can't ever see myself listening to this ever again.
The Shattered Fortress - Musically the best on BC&SL, but lyrically it could be the worst in DT's entire catalog. I'll still play it every once in a while though...it's a great workout song.
The Best of Times - Underrated for sure. But I feel I'd love this song even more if the chorus wasn't so bland and repetitive, and if the song was just a little bit shorter. It's not horrible though.
The Count of Tuscany - This went from being a top 3 song to not even being on the radar. The intro is great but kind of generic DT, the outro is wonderful, but everything in between is pretty lame. I seldom listen to it.
On the covers disc, the Queen song is the only one I really listen to. James does a fantastic job and I seriously think that if it wasn't for his whiny-ish tone, he'd be as great as Freddy. Mike's parts in Flick of the Wrist aren't that great though. But overall, it's a better production than the original recording.
I never touch the instrumental disc, and I haven't even taken the stems out of their packaging.
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I love BC&SL. I find it just doesn't get boring one bit. I think it's a strong album and it has my favourite guitar solo of all time on it (The Best Of Times) I'm constantly listening to it, it's just an amazing album. Sometimes the lyrics aren't the best, but tbh the music makes up for that.
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A Nightmare to Remember - A cool song to put on every once in a while. Suffers horribly from everything after the Beautiful Agony section. The intro is one of DT's best.
A Rite of Passage - Can't ever see myself listening to this ever again.
Wither - Can't ever see myself listening to this ever again.
The Shattered Fortress - Musically the best on BC&SL, but lyrically it could be the worst in DT's entire catalog. I'll still play it every once in a while though...it's a great workout song.
The Best of Times - Underrated for sure. But I feel I'd love this song even more if the chorus wasn't so bland and repetitive, and if the song was just a little bit shorter. It's not horrible though.
The Count of Tuscany - This went from being a top 3 song to not even being on the radar. The intro is great but kind of generic DT, the outro is wonderful, but everything in between is pretty lame. I seldom listen to it.
On the covers disc, the Queen song is the only one I really listen to. James does a fantastic job and I seriously think that if it wasn't for his whiny-ish tone, he'd be as great as Freddy. Mike's parts in Flick of the Wrist aren't that great though. But overall, it's a better production than the original recording.
I never touch the instrumental disc, and I haven't even taken the stems out of their packaging.
LMFAO. I was actually almost entirely on board until you came up with that.
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The only problem I ever really had with BC&SL, was the fact that most of the vocal melodies went along with the guitar riffs. Maybe it was intentional, I dont know, probably not, as JLB wasn't there for the writing sessions (not his fault that time).
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I like BC&SL, but I prefer the covers disc.
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At first I LOVED the album. It was the first album that came out once I became a fan around 2008. So it was basically a feeling of once it came out I couldn't help but love it.
Now that that feeling is gone, I only really LOVE ANTR and TCOT. I really like AROP, and the last three don't really do anything for me anymore. I barely even listen to it anymore.
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I found that omitting A Rite Of Passage from the track listing, makes the album flow so much better
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I found that not listening to the album makes it flow better too.
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A Nightmare to Remember - A cool song to put on every once in a while. Suffers horribly from everything after the Beautiful Agony section. The intro is one of DT's best.
A Rite of Passage - Can't ever see myself listening to this ever again.
Wither - Can't ever see myself listening to this ever again.
The Shattered Fortress - Musically the best on BC&SL, but lyrically it could be the worst in DT's entire catalog. I'll still play it every once in a while though...it's a great workout song.
The Best of Times - Underrated for sure. But I feel I'd love this song even more if the chorus wasn't so bland and repetitive, and if the song was just a little bit shorter. It's not horrible though.
The Count of Tuscany - This went from being a top 3 song to not even being on the radar. The intro is great but kind of generic DT, the outro is wonderful, but everything in between is pretty lame. I seldom listen to it.
On the covers disc, the Queen song is the only one I really listen to. James does a fantastic job and I seriously think that if it wasn't for his whiny-ish tone, he'd be as great as Freddy. Mike's parts in Flick of the Wrist aren't that great though. But overall, it's a better production than the original recording.
I never touch the instrumental disc, and I haven't even taken the stems out of their packaging.
I may have already done this in this thread, but what the heck. I'll play again...
A Nightmare To Remember: One of the best songs DT have done in their entire career. Other than "Raaaaaawwwwwwwwrrrrrrrrrrr!!!!!!!!!!!!!," this song is flawless.
A Right Of Passage: The song has a lot of coolness going on, but is also pretty straighforward for DT. As far as the metal side of DT, it feels very "by the numbers" and formuliac. Still, good song.
Wither: It's easy to forget just how good this song is unless you take time to crank the volume and really listen. It doesn't do anything earth shattering, but it's solid.
The Shattered Fortress: Great, great song. They literally took the best of the 12SS, put some new twists and turns in, and smashed it all up into one package. The only problem is, it just feels too long and feels like it tries to do too much. I can appreciate what Mike was trying to do here, but I think it would have been better if it was scaled back a bit.
The Best Of Times: A lot of nice things going on, but the song does not connect with me emotionally whatsoever. Given that and the length, I never have a desire to listen to it and will more often than not skip it altogether. If AROP is metal DT by numbers, this feels like prog rock DT by numbers.
The Count Of Tuscany: Lots of awesome going on, but to this day, while the middle volume swell section is nice, it feels SO out of place and distracting that it kills the song for me. It would have been great as an intro, but I feel like the band felt like they couldn't still that part in the beginning or else fans would think the song was trying to be Octavarium II. And that's a fair point. But the song still would have flowed better. And if it seems like I'm spending a lot of time on this point, it's because I feel the song was 90% on its way to being stellar, and then took and abrupt left turn and drove off a cliff, so it is frustrating. But other than that, the music is great, the lyrics are great, the story is great. Me likey.
Very good album. The biggest flaw as a whole is that the songs are almost all so long that if you don't like a song or two, it kills off a big chunk of time. Covers disk is a nice addition too.
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A Nightmare To Remember - One of the best intros DT has ever done. Oozes so much malice. The best "Dark" DT intro. Beautiful Agony is just incredible. Love that section! Too bad DEY-AFTER-DEY and too much repetition kills the 2nd half of the song. Would have cracked top 10 if they cut all the fat
A Rite of Passage - Least favourite DT song since their FII days. Ugh.
Wither - By itself, this song is a really good ballad. But in the context of the album, it doesn't do anything to help it.
The Shattered Fortress - Really underrated rocker, this one! Everything is just kick-ass with the exception of the keyboard solo. WHICH. GOES. ON. FOR. FAR. TOO. LONG. Nice TGP intro reprise at the very end
The Best of Times - The most outright cheesy DT song. And I love every single minute of it. It stands alone in the DT discography for being so bittersweet, musically. Also, DAT SOLO!
The Count of Tuscany - The 2nd best DT song (right after Octavarium). It's funny how ANTR has the Beautiful Agony section (the Silver Lining amongst the Black Clouds) and TCOT has the dark 2nd quarter (the Black Cloud amongst the Silver Lining....wait, that metaphor doesn't make complete sense), serving as a sort of Yin and Yang for each other. Anyway, you have that blissful, stellar intro. It's probably one of the most universally-loved sections in their discography. No qualms about that whatsoever. Then it slowly and ever so tenderly transforms into that dark passage, beginning with DAT MELODY that marks the transition into murkiness. Love the verses until "DOWN THE CELLAR STAIRS", where the lyrics turn absolutely abysmal. Nothing wrong with the music, but the lyrics are just horrendous. Ugh. How the hell did JP pen "ALL THE FINEST WINES. IMPROVE WITH AGE"??? After that, the short instrumental section that succeeds that section culminates with one of the best JP solo section. Not necessarily the actual guitar solo itself (it is a very simple one), but the combination of JP's solo and JR's keys. Not enough recognition is given to this section. This is the darkest moment of all the DT epics, and one of their best moments. Then we have that ambient section, which is possibly DT's most beautiful section. I need not describe it to you. And finally, we have DAT OUTRO. Rousing, emotional and majestic. Everything one could want in a DT ending! From the touching "Could this be the end", to JP's solo reprisal, to that final keyboard melody, you just feel at peace with the world. Or at least, that's how I feel. An incredible feat by an incredible band :D
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I'm in between It's OK and Never Enough. I'm also in the minority that thinks SC is better. Really, BCSL has two good songs. TSF and TCOT, and listening to those two tonight in the car, I wasn't feeling them like I used to. TCOT still has an amazing intro and outro, but that cream filling doesn't excite me anymore. Think Oreos, you perverts! Those two songs are still good, but really, I'd rather listen to something else of theirs.
A Nightmare To Remember - it has some cool moments, but I just don't give a shit about it anymore. I've tried editing out the stuff I don't like, but then the song just sounds off. Beautiful Agony isn't as beautiful as it used to be, the solo section is pants (love that phrase) and everything after it is just fodder.
A Rite Of Passage - Boring as fuck. BORING.
Wither - Not bad, but another "I don't care enough to listen" song. Plus, that Brian May solo just about kills the song for me.
The Shattered Fortress - I'm in the minority that loves the keyboard solo, but the song loses a lot of steam after it. Portnoy's goofy tough guy vocals don't help, but the first half of the song is pretty awesome.
The Best Of Times - Meh. This song does absolutely nothing for me.
The Count Of Tuscany - I never minded the lyrics. They're fun to sing along to, but as I said before, the song in general doesn't tickle my fancy like it used to. If I never got to see it live, it wouldn't kill me.
Black Clouds & Silver Linings has not aged well for me at all. Systematic Chaos, while still being full of flaws, and not the best them, is still way better than BCSL. I'll give it a 4/10 and I think I'm being generous. Falling Into Infinity is also better than this album, as is WDADU. ADTOE was quite the improvement, and a glorious return to form.
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ANTR - Definitely top 20 for me. One of their most amazing metal songs, with a fantastic halloween type atmosphere, great riffs, and JR integrating something unique that really elevates the song, rather than just doubling the guitars. And of course that mid section. I have nothing against the solo section or the MP verse. My only problem with the song is that the last few lines of the lyrics of MP's section don't fit the vocal delivery, but that's relatively minor in the grand scheme of things. A triumph for DT's metal side.
AROP - A great more straightforward metal track. Interesting vocals, and a catchy chorus with nice harmonies. The solo section does feel a bit cut and paste, and Bebot is a bit silly, but overall I think it's a cool song.
Wither - A solid metal "ballad". Nothing extraordinary, but a good little song nonetheless. And a killer solo by JP that is underrated for showing the restraint on BCASL.
TSF - A bit of a frustrating song. It's largely a medley of old material, with not a lot of entirely new stuff. Some of the reprisals are very well done, and create a new twist on the old stuff, but some of it just feels like it's there just because it's there. Some of the transitions are among DT's most awkward too. The entire outro section kicks ass though. It works well enough when listening to the entire 12SS (seriously, do it), but as a standalone, it feels very redundant.
TBOT - A beautiful intro, but I'm not too crazy about the major key verses. Most of the minor key stuff is quite good though, and that outro solo is one of JP's best ever. I think if the song was trimmed down, it could have been a much stronger track, but there are a few significant sections dragging it down for me. I applaud DT for writing such a long song that shows such restraint though.
TCOT - The verse melodies are a bit weak, simply doubling the chord progression, and the pre-chorus vocal shouting feels a bit lazy. Aside from that, this is one of DT's best songs ever. The opening instrumental section is one of the most incredible pieces of music DT has ever written, and everything from the guitar swell section onwards is stellar. The song is a mixture of ridiculously amazing and average.
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I found that not listening to the album makes it flow better too.
Not listening to Dream Theater can cause health issues down the road. (https://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-music003.gif)
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I still think it's great. Aside from TBOT and TSF, which I've never been all that into, I can still listen to any of the rest any time. ANTR still sounds as fresh and energetic as ever, and the instrumental intro of TCOT still slays me every time. Some of the best instrumental work they've ever done hands down.
I think BCASL's biggest weakness is just the long songs. If you don't like a couple of tracks, it's a relatively big chunk of the album gone. Not as much of a problem to not like a couple of tracks when the album has 10+ tracks.
Exactly my feeling.
I'd much rather have ten 7 minute songs on an album than seven 10 minute songs.
As you say - If two of those seven songs don't appeal to you - you're left with five songs to choose from and you get bored of the album quicker.
I was a bit disappointed when I read that BC&SL was only six tracks but was somewhat relieved with ADTOE having 9.
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I like BC&SL, but I prefer the covers disc.
Stargazer is really, really awesome.
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BC&SL was the first DT album that I didn't listen to at least a dozen times on purchase.
I skip ANTR because of the RAWR section, which is a shame because the intro is majestic and had DT had something like the Queen rule of recording (the songwriter has final say...) I think there's a good chance it would've ended up as one of my favourite songs. As it is... grr...
I skip Wither 'cos I find it dull and lifeless.
I skip A Shattered Fortress because of MP's vocal contributions. I could probably live with the KINDNESS/COURTESY stuff but for the spoken word section part way through that kills the song stone dead for me.
I skip TCoT because of the lyrics.
Which leaves two songs, one of which is a fairly stock contribution, A Rite Of Passage, and the other, The Best Of Times, which I enjoy as long as I don't pay close attention to the lyrics.
Unlike SC and ToT, which I did enjoy on release but which didn't stand the test of time, I thought very little of BC&SL straight away.
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I may have already said this, but for JP solos, this album is best.
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I kind of like this album, I don't think it's as bad as most people do. I think I usually rank it somewhere in the middle of the pack. I think it's a bit better than 8VM, WDADU, TOT & SC. Guess I'll do the song by song analysis thing?
ANTR- My opinion of this is actually the same as most of you guys. Great tune up until the solo section. Beautiful Agony section is one of the best things they've ever done, I do dig the solo section even though it does go on a bit long, and everything after that gets pretty repetitive.
AROP- Boring, always thought it was boring. The chorus is a pretty cool guy I guess.
Wither- I really like this tune, I'm surprised by all the negativity I've been reading about it. Great little ballad, probably the best complete tune on the album.
Shattered Fortress- I like this tune too. Everyone always complains that it's just a mash up of other riffs from the 12ss but wasn't that kind of the point? It was the finale of the suite. I like the keyboard solo too. A lot. It does go on a bit long though.
Best of Times- Doesn't do much for me. The piano/acoustic guitar intro is nice, and the outro solo is cool, but overall I've never really gone crazy over this tune.
TCOT- Awesome tune, instant DT classic. Intro is amazing, verses and choruses are kind of bland but tolerable, everything from the ambient section onward is amazing. I'm also surprised by the negativity toward the ambient section. Aside from the initial acoustic guitar intro passage it's probably my favorite part of the song. I'm weird I guess.
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BC&SL was my first DT album and after hearing all their albums it was still #4 or #5 on my list but since then it has descended to the 9th position.
ANTR - A very good song although having shorter solo sections wouldn't have made it any worse. I don't have a problem with MP's vocals, it's the lyrics in that part that don't fit: "EVERYONE SURVIVED, ROOOOAAAARRR!!!"
AROP - Catchy metal song but gets old pretty fast and the solo section feels like it's there just to make the song longer and more complex
Wither - OK ballad, nice to listen to, but compared to some other DT ballads like Through Her Eyes, Beneath the Surface and Vacant that are highly emotional this is pretty bland.
TSF - Relies too much on recycling old riffs instead of creating something new and just like in ANTR, the lyrics MP is shouting don't fit his delivery: "FREEDOM! SERENITY! HAPPINESS!"
TBOT - Meh, I feel this kind of song doesn't deserve the length of 13 minutes, it's just way too long. The lyrics are also too personal to identify with.
TCOT - The second highlight of the album. However, it has the same problem as ANTR and TSF - MP is doing his "tough guy" vocals on lyrics that aren't metal at all: "ALL THE FINEST WINES IMPROVE WITH AGE!" Apart from that it's a very nice song and I find the ambient section better than the boring intro to Octavarium.
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Still love this album. It's what introduced me to Dream Theater back in 11th grade. I like it more than...uhh...I guess I'd say it's my 5th favorite.
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It's still a good album that has great moments. ANTR was always my top track and it still is. It's been said hundreds of times here but the Beautiful Agony section really is one of the most beautiful sections of music the band has ever made. I really dig JR's synth leads in the song too. I think it's miles better then his solo parts which are too wanky for my liking. This will probably always be one of my favorite DT tracks.
AROP and Wither didn't catch on with me that much. I appreciate them as part of DT's great history but I didn't feel as much of a connection as I did with most DT songs.
TSF is a great song that is bogged down by being too long and too compressed. I get major ear fatigue after listening to it all the way through. I could go listen to ACOS or 8VM at an even louder volume and my ears will be totally fine, but this just kills me. Also, I knew MP said it would have some musical and lyrical elements from past AA songs, but I feel like maybe they ripped themselves off a bit too much. I don't think there was enough original content in the song to warrant it's length. It's a solid end to a great saga of songs though.
TBOT is a song that caught on with me quickly but also lost it's flair quickly. It does have some terrific JP moments and a good lyrical theme, but it feels like could have been hashed out more. The lyrics themselves need some improvement and the music feels quite regular for much of the song. It still has a great solo and a great outro.
TCOT... similar thing to the above. I loved it at first and it just kind of died down a bit after a while. It seems like the band went into this one with the clear idea of making a really long epic to close the album with. They did their job, but it's still too long. I'm not even opposed to lengthy tracks, hell, 8VM is my top DT track of all time at over 23 minutes, but those 23 minutes are filled with such high quality music that it makes the length ok. TCOT tries to accomplish 'epic' but to me it feels more 'drawn out'. The story is great and it has awesome musical moments, but there is some definite filler here. This track could have been cut down to about 13 or 14 minutes and it would have, IMO, worked better as a song and as a closer.
If they shaved time off TSF and TCOT, they could have added another 7-9 minute song to the list. That might have helped in making a more cohesive, varied album with better flow. Instead of 'long epic followed by two singles followed by 3 long epics'.
I feel that this is the most MP influenced album they've ever made as well, with SC being a close second. I think they took a big step back with SC, a small step forward with BC&SL, and a huge step forward with ATDOE.
Overall it's not one of my favorite albums anymore, not even top 5. If not for ANTR, it would probably be my least favorite DT album. If they had cut those two songs down a bit and made another solid track to even the flow, it would be in my top 5 for sure.
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This was the first Dream Theater release that I was waiting for to come out, because I had become a fan sometime between SC and BC&SL came out. I bought it rather quickly after it came out and, initially, I was very happy with it.
However, when I first heard ADTOE, I was literally blown away and I, when I listened to BC&SL again afterwards, I found it lacking in many areas, which mostly make ADTOE that enjoyble, the first and foremost of these issues being the lacking balance of guitar and keyboards on this album.
Still, I don't understand why some people seem to hate it that much. It's still a very good album, and compared to very many other bands, it's even a masterpiece.
A Nightmare to Remember: Like many people, I love the beginning, but I find that the instrumental section drags on for a while too long. Portnoy's growls don't really bother me, but I don't miss them either on ADTOE. The intro, up to "Beautiful Agony" is :hefdaddy
A Rite of Passage: This song is catchy, but too standard for me to truly enjoy. The chorus is cool, and Petrucci's soloing is great as well, but Jordan's soloing doesn't hold that standard.
Wither: I like the restraint shown with this song, though I find that it is quite standard as well. Especially the repetitiveness (DT has often shown that they don't need to have identical verses - why do it here?) irk me. The solo is stellar, though.
The Shattered Fortress: Mediocre track. It is fairly enjoyable in the middle, but the soloing is too long, imo. The "Responsible" part is great, probably the best moment of the track. One a side note: why does it end with "The Glass Prison" intro - isn't the goal to leave alcoholism behind, not to begin anew?
The Best of Times: I can't understand why people dislike the song's lyrics. I find that they capture the subject perfectly. The Rush-esque intro is great, just as the softer parts later, though the key part in the middle wouldn't have been needed, really. Oh, and even though pretty much everyone agrees on this: DAT SOLO!!! :metal :metal
The Count of Tuscany: Great song. The lyrics don't bother me, they add to the fun, imo. The soft part in the middle could have been shorter and I always skip the noises at the end, but other than, this track is truly great.
There you have it. All in all, a good album, but ADTOE (and of course, all the other great albums like I&W, Awake, FiI, ACoS, SFaM and SDoiT) blow it out of the water, ranking it as one of DT's bottom three albums - that doesn't stop it from being good, because I love most of DT's discography anyways.
EDIT: After listening to it twice more, I find it to be better than SfaM, but only just.
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This album got me back into Dream Theater after 2 years of disinterest in DT, prog, metal, and most other rock music. Thanks to BC&SL, I spent a great deal of time and money getting into a lot of modern prog I missed out on and newer stuff since. BC&SL holds a very special place in my heart, along with Octavarium.
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This album got me back into Dream Theater after 2 years of disinterest in DT, prog, metal, and most other rock music. Thanks to BC&SL, I spent a great deal of time and money getting into a lot of modern prog I missed out on and newer stuff since. BC&SL holds a very special place in my heart, along with Octavarium.
Funny, BCSL almost made me give up on DT and get more into other prog bands...seeing as there's not that much prog on the album.
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This album got me back into Dream Theater after 2 years of disinterest in DT, prog, metal, and most other rock music. Thanks to BC&SL, I spent a great deal of time and money getting into a lot of modern prog I missed out on and newer stuff since. BC&SL holds a very special place in my heart, along with Octavarium.
Funny, BCSL almost made me give up on DT and get more into other prog bands...seeing as there's not that much prog on the album.
BCSL did make me give up on Dream Theater. After being a fan for over 10 years, that was pretty it much it for me.
From July 2009 to September 2010 I didn't listen to a single DT album or song. I thought I was done for good, but since then ADTOE has been released and it has revitalized all my love and passion for the band and I'm back to listening to them constantly.
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This album got me back into Dream Theater after 2 years of disinterest in DT, prog, metal, and most other rock music. Thanks to BC&SL, I spent a great deal of time and money getting into a lot of modern prog I missed out on and newer stuff since. BC&SL holds a very special place in my heart, along with Octavarium.
Funny, BCSL almost made me give up on DT and get more into other prog bands...seeing as there's not that much prog on the album.
:lol
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That's funny guys. Systematic Chaos made me give up on DT, along with other factors.
I had gone through a 2 year period of only listening to jazz, fusion, and funk. I heard a leak of ANTR in early 2009 and thought it was cool, which led me to get the album, and get back into DT; which led me to check out more prog stuff.
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This album got me back into Dream Theater after 2 years of disinterest in DT, prog, metal, and most other rock music. Thanks to BC&SL, I spent a great deal of time and money getting into a lot of modern prog I missed out on and newer stuff since. BC&SL holds a very special place in my heart, along with Octavarium.
Funny, BCSL almost made me give up on DT and get more into other prog bands...seeing as there's not that much prog on the album.
BCSL did make me give up on Dream Theater. After being a fan for over 10 years, that was pretty it much it for me.
From July 2009 to September 2010 I didn't listen to a single DT album or song. I thought I was done for good, but since then ADTOE has been released and it has revitalized all my love and passion for the band and I'm back to listening to them constantly.
Truth. I completely 100% concur.
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ADTOE is actually the first DT album to completely lose my attention. Haven't had any urge to listen to it all year. Hopefully the next album can get me back into current DT.
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ADTOE is actually the first DT album to completely lose my attention. Haven't had any urge to listen to it all year. Hopefully the next album can get me back into current DT.
The same thing happened to me with BC&SL. And i only liked ANTR and TCOT a lot, the other songs were mediocre to me since the beginning.
On the other hand, i still listen to most of the songs from ADTOE, and especially OTBOA, BITS, and Outcry
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ADTOE is actually the first DT album to completely lose my attention. Haven't had any urge to listen to it all year. Hopefully the next album can get me back into current DT.
The same thing happened to me with BC&SL. And i only liked ANTR and TCOT a lot, the other songs were mediocre to me since the beginning.
On the other hand, i still listen to most of the songs from ADTOE, and especially OTBOA, BITS, and Outcry
I listened to SC and BCASL for weeks solid with basically nothing else. After listening to ADTOE, I really had to push myself to keep listening to it at all, and I only ever halfway got into it, then quickly stopped listening to it altogether. It's a more consistent album than the last two, and I like all of the songs aside from Outcry, but for me it's just nowhere near as exciting or interesting.
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I (im)patiently awaited ADTOE's release, and Ive listened to it about over 30 times or so (according to my last.fm), to the point where I have no desire to listen to it (because I over-listened). It kind of happened with BC&SL, but not as badly.
I don't know how old you guys are, but Ive only been into the band since Train of Thought when I was 15 or 16, so Ive gone through so many changes in musical taste, being so young, since 2003. DT has somehow kept my interest and came out with the right music at the right time for me (excpet SC). Octavarium had the title track, and I was just getting into bands like Yes and King Crimson at the time, not to mention I enjoyed the entire album as well. BC&SL was more metal, which is what I was feeling then, and ADTOE was more prog, which is what Ive been feeling lately, so it's all worked out for me. ;)
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This was the first real Dream Theater album that I got about a year and a half ago (I had the Greatest Hit collection before) and it didn't really do much for me. I think I got Octavarium next and that's what made me a fan. Now I think its good but its at the bottom of my list for favorite albums. If I had to pick a favorite I'd say The Count of Tuscany.
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ADTOE is actually the first DT album to completely lose my attention. Haven't had any urge to listen to it all year. Hopefully the next album can get me back into current DT.
I am having the same issue. That is the first DT album to ever do that to me. As for BC&SL, I still love it. Top 3 or 4 albums for me.
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Progressive metal isn't for everybody. That could explain the exuberance over BCSL and the lack of interest in ADToE.
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maybe i've just simply been brainwashed over two decades plus of being a super-fan, but there's nothing dream theater could release that would make me not want to listen to them.
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Progressive metal isn't for everybody. That could explain the exuberance over BCSL and the lack of interest in ADToE.
This is a confusing statement. Both albums are progressive metal.
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ADTOE is actually the first DT album to completely lose my attention. Haven't had any urge to listen to it all year. Hopefully the next album can get me back into current DT.
The same thing happened to me with BC&SL. And i only liked ANTR and TCOT a lot, the other songs were mediocre to me since the beginning.
On the other hand, i still listen to most of the songs from ADTOE, and especially OTBOA, BITS, and Outcry
I listened to SC and BCASL for weeks solid with basically nothing else. After listening to ADTOE, I really had to push myself to keep listening to it at all, and I only ever halfway got into it, then quickly stopped listening to it altogether. It's a more consistent album than the last two, and I like all of the songs aside from Outcry, but for me it's just nowhere near as exciting or interesting.
This is me, pretty much. I think I only listened to ADTOE through about 4 times. DT definitely refined its signature sound on the album, which is good for them since they seem to be really thrilled about it, but didn't do much for me. Nothing in ADTOE blew me away like the Beautiful Agony section, parts of The Shattered Fortress, and all of The Count of Tuscany did.
Speaking of The Count, I just listened to it for the first time in nearly a year. Still fantastic.
SUCKING ON HIS PIPE
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Progressive metal isn't for everybody. That could explain the exuberance over BCSL and the lack of interest in ADToE.
This is a confusing statement. Both albums are progressive metal.
Are they? :biggrin:
Yes, I know. I'm exaggerating. It's a prog-metal album, but barely. Meanwhile, as the other poster mentioned, the new album displayed the signature DT prog-metal sound that changed the genre when Images came out.
BCSL is a mediocre album at best, sadly.
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This is me, pretty much. I think I only listened to ADTOE through about 4 times. DT definitely refined its signature sound on the album, which is good for them since they seem to be really thrilled about it, but didn't do much for me. Nothing in ADTOE blew me away like the Beautiful Agony section, parts of The Shattered Fortress, and all of The Count of Tuscany did.
Speaking of The Count, I just listened to it for the first time in nearly a year. Still fantastic.
SUCKING ON HIS PIPE
I did listen to ADTOE a decent amount right around when it came out (like once or twice a day at most for about a week), but it just never grabbed me to the point where I felt like I had to listen to it again like other DT albums, or other new albums that I've loved.
While the vocal sections of TCOT have always slightly let the song down for me, the rest of the song still excites me like nothing on ADTOE has even come close to. Definitely among their most underrated instrumental work.
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This is me, pretty much. I think I only listened to ADTOE through about 4 times. DT definitely refined its signature sound on the album, which is good for them since they seem to be really thrilled about it, but didn't do much for me. Nothing in ADTOE blew me away like the Beautiful Agony section, parts of The Shattered Fortress, and all of The Count of Tuscany did.
Speaking of The Count, I just listened to it for the first time in nearly a year. Still fantastic.
SUCKING ON HIS PIPE
I did listen to ADTOE a decent amount right around when it came out (like once or twice a day at most for about a week), but it just never grabbed me to the point where I felt like I had to listen to it again like other DT albums, or other new albums that I've loved.
While the vocal sections of TCOT have always slightly let the song down for me, the rest of the song still excites me like nothing on ADTOE has even come close to. Definitely among their most underrated instrumental work.
Considering the praise that TCOT is getting here, I wouldn't call it underrated - pretty much everyone agrees that the instrumental is rather good.
That said, I like ADTOE much more than BC&SL, mainly because of its balance between different styles, not the focus on the metal side of DT.
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Considering the praise that TCOT is getting here, I wouldn't call it underrated - pretty much everyone agrees that the instrumental is rather good.
You're right, I guess I just don't hear people specifically mention it, and also because I think it slays anything on ADTOE, and yet people talk about ADTOE as if instrumental work like in TCOT doesn't even exist.
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Considering the praise that TCOT is getting here, I wouldn't call it underrated - pretty much everyone agrees that the instrumental is rather good.
You're right, I guess I just don't hear people specifically mention it, and also because I think it slays anything on ADTOE, and yet people talk about ADTOE as if instrumental work like in TCOT doesn't even exist.
True, the instrumental work on TCOT is better than anything on ADTOE, but ADTOE is consistent (all songs are good, imo) as well as lyrically - I find that it blows most of BC&SL out of the water easily. But then, everyone is entitled to a different opinion and I can see that you don't like ADTOE as much as I do - even if your opinion is wrong :laugh:
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Considering the praise that TCOT is getting here, I wouldn't call it underrated - pretty much everyone agrees that the instrumental is rather good.
You're right, I guess I just don't hear people specifically mention it, and also because I think it slays anything on ADTOE, and yet people talk about ADTOE as if instrumental work like in TCOT doesn't even exist.
True, the instrumental work on TCOT is better than anything on ADTOE, but ADTOE is consistent (all songs are good, imo) as well as lyrically - I find that it blows most of BC&SL out of the water easily. But then, everyone is entitled to a different opinion and I can see that you don't like ADTOE as much as I do - even if your opinion is wrong :laugh:
I completely agree that ADTOE is more consistent, but for me it's only consistently "good", whereas BCASL has lower lows, but also much higher highs.
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Considering the praise that TCOT is getting here, I wouldn't call it underrated - pretty much everyone agrees that the instrumental is rather good.
You're right, I guess I just don't hear people specifically mention it, and also because I think it slays anything on ADTOE, and yet people talk about ADTOE as if instrumental work like in TCOT doesn't even exist.
True, the instrumental work on TCOT is better than anything on ADTOE, but ADTOE is consistent (all songs are good, imo) as well as lyrically - I find that it blows most of BC&SL out of the water easily. But then, everyone is entitled to a different opinion and I can see that you don't like ADTOE as much as I do - even if your opinion is wrong :laugh:
I completely agree that ADTOE is more consistent, but for me it's only consistently "good", whereas BCASL has lower lows, but also much higher highs.
True that BC&SL has lower lows, but the highs are about as high as ADTOE is consistantly. Pretty much every song on ADTOE (except for FFH and BMU,BMD maybe) can easily stand beside TCOT or TBOT, which are the best moments on BC&SL, in my opinion.
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Considering the praise that TCOT is getting here, I wouldn't call it underrated - pretty much everyone agrees that the instrumental is rather good.
You're right, I guess I just don't hear people specifically mention it, and also because I think it slays anything on ADTOE, and yet people talk about ADTOE as if instrumental work like in TCOT doesn't even exist.
True, the instrumental work on TCOT is better than anything on ADTOE, but ADTOE is consistent (all songs are good, imo) as well as lyrically - I find that it blows most of BC&SL out of the water easily. But then, everyone is entitled to a different opinion and I can see that you don't like ADTOE as much as I do - even if your opinion is wrong :laugh:
I completely agree that ADTOE is more consistent, but for me it's only consistently "good", whereas BCASL has lower lows, but also much higher highs.
True that BC&SL has lower lows, but the highs are about as high as ADTOE is consistantly. Pretty much every song on ADTOE (except for FFH and BMU,BMD maybe) can easily stand beside TCOT or TBOT, which are the best moments on BC&SL, in my opinion.
ADTOE has a lot of great moments, like most of BITS/LNF/TITL (my favourites from the album), but nothing on the album comes close to the chills I still get listening to TCOT or ANTR. They have magical moments for me, whereas ADTOE doesn't quite reach that level of magic that makes me come back for more time and again, hence the fact I haven't had the urge to listen to it in months, whereas I still listen to stuff like TCOT much more regularly.
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BC&SL has a lot of fantastic moments, and its a pretty good album to listen to all the way through when I'm in the mood for the last four songs, but its not DT's best. I thought (and still think) that ADTOE is one of their most consistent albums in a long time, and still holds a lot of replay value for me.
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Progressive metal isn't for everybody. That could explain the exuberance over BCSL and the lack of interest in ADToE.
This is a confusing statement. Both albums are progressive metal.
Tis BOOLsheet is all about confusing statements. He seldom seems to make sense.
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Progressive metal isn't for everybody. That could explain the exuberance over BCSL and the lack of interest in ADToE.
This is a confusing statement. Both albums are progressive metal.
Tis BOOLsheet is all about confusing statements. He seldom seems to make sense.
Well, I think that he is trying to say that ADTOE is proggier than BC&SL is. Personally, I don't agree (they're both progressive), but from a first glance, BC&SL seems to be much more in-your-face than ADTOE, so I can understand where he is coming from.
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Progressive metal isn't for everybody. That could explain the exuberance over BCSL and the lack of interest in ADToE.
This is a confusing statement. Both albums are progressive metal.
Tis BOOLsheet is all about confusing statements. He seldom seems to make sense.
Hey, one day you'll catch on, just keep thinking about it! :biggrin:
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The instrumental tracks are not the problem with Count. In fact, the instrumental tracks are not usually a problem in DT.
Also, LMAO @ saying Count is better instrumentally than the songs on Events.
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Hey, one day you'll catch on, just keep thinking about it! :biggrin:
Both albums are metal, and both albums are progressive. What you said would make sense if ADTOE were progressive and BCSL wasn't, but that's not the case.
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Progressive metal isn't for everybody. That could explain the exuberance over BCSL and the lack of interest in ADToE.
This is a confusing statement. Both albums are progressive metal.
Tis BOOLsheet is all about confusing statements. He seldom seems to make sense.
Well, I think that he is trying to say that ADTOE is proggier than BC&SL is. Personally, I don't agree (they're both progressive), but from a first glance, BC&SL seems to be much more in-your-face than ADTOE, so I can understand where he is coming from.
ADTOE took many more listens to wrap my head around it, whereas BC&SL didn't take as many and much of its excitement is in the riffs and patterns. ADTOE is a little more complex and technical, so it took a while to reveal some of its beauty.
I'd say it's hard to compare and both albums do different things and achieve different goals. BC&SL has some of the band's heaviest moments, and some of their lightest moments. ADTOE has some of their proggiest and technical moments. I just love both albums.
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Hey, one day you'll catch on, just keep thinking about it! :biggrin:
Both albums are metal, and both albums are progressive. What you said would make sense if ADTOE were progressive and BCSL wasn't, but that's not the case.
You're trying to make what I said very literal, which is not how it was intended to be understood. It's pretty obvious BCSL is less prog and more metal. The bigger problem, which may be a symptom of that imbalance, is that none of the songs is good from beginning to end. Some of the songs aren't even good at all. It's a better album than Systematic Chaos, but it's still a mediocre at best album.
ALL THE FINEST WINES
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Like I have said before, I agree that all of the long songs on BC&SL have one major flaw/section that stands out, keeping them from being truly great from start to finish. Honestly, I think if Portnoy had written lyrics for The Best of Times that were as good as the ones for A Change of Seasons (given the comparable subject matters), I really think the song would be much more highly-regarded; musically, it is that good. But the lyrics are so mediocre and awkward (despite the subject matter) that is prevents the song from attaining awesome status. It's still really good, though. Really, there are days when I think it might be the best song on BC&SL, but the first four and last nine minutes of The Count are hard to beat (on that album).
And ADTOE is still better. :)
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The lyrics to TBOT might get a little clunky, but the honesty is so loud and clear that in the end, I find they say exactly what MP feels and given the subject matter, the song, lyrics included, are such an incredibly moving song. Musically it's spectaculer. The intro is just amazing, one of the most beutiful passages in their catalog.
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The lyrics to TBOT might get a little clunky, but the honesty is so loud and clear that in the end, I find they say exactly what MP feels and given the subject matter, the song, lyrics included, are such an incredibly moving song. Musically it's spectaculer. The intro is just amazing, one of the most beutiful passages in their catalog.
The lyrics to that song aren't the problem on the album, though they aren't spectacular. Count's lyrics are laughable and the last part of Nightmare ("day after day, night after night, etc.) are hard to take seriously. Those 2 sets of lyrics alone are some of the worst lyrics we have in the prog-metal genre.
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Honestly, I think if Portnoy had written lyrics for The Best of Times that were as good as the ones for A Change of Seasons (given the comparable subject matters), I really think the song would be much more highly-regarded; musically, it is that good. But the lyrics are so mediocre and awkward (despite the subject matter) that is prevents the song from attaining awesome status.
I completely agree with this. It's a real shame, and I still feel terrible for saying that given the circumstances.
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Honestly, I think if Portnoy had written lyrics for The Best of Times that were as good as the ones for A Change of Seasons (given the comparable subject matters), I really think the song would be much more highly-regarded; musically, it is that good. But the lyrics are so mediocre and awkward (despite the subject matter) that is prevents the song from attaining awesome status.
I completely agree with this. It's a real shame, and I still feel terrible for saying that given the circumstances.
It makes me wonder if, in his latter day DT days, Portnoy took the same approach to writing lyrics that he did with playing his drum parts: just get in there and get it over with. He admits on the Neal Morse Testimony Two documentary that he likes to get in there and play and go for it and not take too much time, so I wonder if he applied that same philosophy to writing lyrics that he did with his drum parts. And that is not meant to imply that he half-assed writing lyrics about his father's death, but merely that he became convinced that he could just spit something out just like that and not need to go back and rework it and/or make it better. We all fall into bad habits here and there, and that might have been his, without him even knowing it.
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When BC&SL came out, I put it at about the mid-point of their albums, just as many above as there were below.
These days the only album below it is WDADU, and honestly that changes from day to day.
I have noticed when some people are talking about BC&SL, when they praise it, they praise sections of songs. Not the whole thing. Hell, even I do it when I consider TBOT and TCOT. True there are people who like all of ANTR, but for every one of them there's five praising the Beautiful Agony section and nothing else from it. And that's the album in a nutshell for me; there are some brilliant, amazing parts, but they are buried by the flaws, the bad, the bland, and the actively boring. People are saying there are sections of songs on BC & SL that are magical, and that's fine, but when I listen to BC & SL now, I hear a tired band. A band that had fallen into a rut, and was incapable of making magic for an entire song, only for sections of it, and each bit of magic was far less than what the band was truly capable of.
Interestingly for me, now, the best song on the album is now Wither: it's nowhere near the band's best power ballad, but it's the most consistent song, from start to finish, all the way through on BC&SL. There isn't a dreadful lyric or a misplaced tough guy vocal or a dull bit of instrumental wankery in it. It's the only song that doesn't have a part that makes me wince.
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I have noticed when some people are talking about BC&SL, when they praise it, they praise sections of songs. Not the whole thing. Hell, even I do it when I consider TBOT and TCOT. True there are people who like all of ANTR, but for every one of them there's five praising the Beautiful Agony section and nothing else from it. And that's the album in a nutshell for me; there are some brilliant, amazing parts, but they are buried by the flaws, the bad, the bland, and the actively boring. People are saying there are sections of songs on BC & SL that are magical, and that's fine, but when I listen to BC & SL now, I hear a tired band. A band that had fallen into a rut, and was incapable of making magic for an entire song, only for sections of it, and each bit of magic was far less than what the band was truly capable of.
To me ADTOE sounds a lot more like a band in a rut who hasn't been able to find a new sound. OTBOA just sounds so flat and lifeless, almost like a computer is performing the music for them. Nothing here sounds new to me. That to me is a tired band. Then we have ANTR, which just kicks off with such energy and life unlike anything on ADTOE, and sounds like a band who loves what they are doing.
ADTOE is an album that doesn't dare to be bold, so has neither peaks nor lows. That is both its strength over recent albums, and its weakness.
For the record, in my most recent ranking, BCASL was only just above ADTOE right near the bottom of my rankings, so I'm not arguing that BCASL is a great album while ADTOE is terrible. They both average out to weaker DT albums, but in very different ways. But I'll take an amazing song with some slight faults over a decent song that doesn't excite me or offend me.
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I have noticed when some people are talking about BC&SL, when they praise it, they praise sections of songs. Not the whole thing. Hell, even I do it when I consider TBOT and TCOT. True there are people who like all of ANTR, but for every one of them there's five praising the Beautiful Agony section and nothing else from it. And that's the album in a nutshell for me; there are some brilliant, amazing parts, but they are buried by the flaws, the bad, the bland, and the actively boring. People are saying there are sections of songs on BC & SL that are magical, and that's fine, but when I listen to BC & SL now, I hear a tired band. A band that had fallen into a rut, and was incapable of making magic for an entire song, only for sections of it, and each bit of magic was far less than what the band was truly capable of.
To me ADTOE sounds a lot more like a band in a rut who hasn't been able to find a new sound. OTBOA just sounds so flat and lifeless, almost like a computer is performing the music for them. Nothing here sounds new to me. That to me is a tired band. Then we have ANTR, which just kicks off with such energy and life unlike anything on ADTOE, and sounds like a band who loves what they are doing.
ADTOE is an album that doesn't dare to be bold, so has neither peaks nor lows. That is both its strength over recent albums, and its weakness.
For the record, in my most recent ranking, BCASL was only just above ADTOE right near the bottom of my rankings, so I'm not arguing that BCASL is a great album while ADTOE is terrible. They both average out to weaker DT albums, but in very different ways. But I'll take an amazing song with some slight faults over a decent song that doesn't excite me or offend me.
Lol, actually it sounds like a band that just got OUT of a rut. It sounds like a band that has gotten a kick in the ass and has returned to form except pushed their boundaries technically and rhythmically. If you're expecting something "new" from DT you shouldn't get your hopes up, depending on what you meant by "new." If you think DT is going to find a "new sound" you're in for a lot of disappointment. DT is a brand now, with an established signature sound and the way in JR spoke about how the band composed pretty much confirms that. Don't expect a "new sound." If they wanted a "new sound" then maybe they should have just picked Virgil Donati as a drummer, right? Just expect high quality songs like we got on ADTOE, and not like BCSL.
"ADTOE is an album that doesn't dare to be bold, so has neither peaks nor lows. That is both its strength over recent albums, and its weakness."
I'm curious to know exactly you mean by this. It can't possibly be more ridiculous than what you said earlier about the band being in a rut and sounding tired.
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Definitely a YMMV moment then, because OTBOA to me is a joyous explosion of music, of a band finding themselves again, while ANTR almost verges into parody on many occasions BEFORE you get to the awful wanna be death metal parts. We're definitely on opposite poles here. :lol
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Definitely a YMMV moment then, because OTBOA to me is a joyous explosion of music, of a band finding themselves again, while ANTR almost verges into parody on many occasions BEFORE you get to the awful wanna be death metal parts. We're definitely on opposite poles here. :lol
This.
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A band doesn't have to do something new or reinvent itself to write good music or sound like they are not in a rut. ADTOE is the most energetic the band has sounded since Train of Thought, IMO.
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"ADTOE is an album that doesn't dare to be bold, so has neither peaks nor lows. That is both its strength over recent albums, and its weakness."
I'm curious to know exactly you mean by this. It can't possibly be more ridiculous than what you said earlier about the band being in a rut and sounding tired.
My comment was self explanatory, and since you have trouble accepting other opinions, it' not worth my time to explain it further to you.
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"ADTOE is an album that doesn't dare to be bold, so has neither peaks nor lows. That is both its strength over recent albums, and its weakness."
I'm curious to know exactly you mean by this. It can't possibly be more ridiculous than what you said earlier about the band being in a rut and sounding tired.
My comment was self explanatory, and since you have trouble accepting other opinions, it' not worth my time to explain it further to you.
They (your comments about ADTOE) really weren't self explanatory lol. They were so vague that one could be justified in thinking they didn't mean anything at all other than "I don't like it." I accept all opinions that are different, except in certain instances which I mentioned earlier in the thread, in which people say something so out there, it doesn't warrant protection under the "opinion" label. For example, someone telling me that Reload is a better Metallica album than Puppets.
If you don't want to explain it, fine. But I really was curious as to what you meant by that. Are you hinting that BCSL is an album with "highs and lows?"
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"ADTOE is an album that doesn't dare to be bold, so has neither peaks nor lows. That is both its strength over recent albums, and its weakness."
I'm curious to know exactly you mean by this. It can't possibly be more ridiculous than what you said earlier about the band being in a rut and sounding tired.
My comment was self explanatory, and since you have trouble accepting other opinions, it' not worth my time to explain it further to you.
They (your comments about ADTOE) really weren't self explanatory lol. They were so vague that one could be justified in thinking they didn't mean anything at all other than "I don't like it." I accept all opinions that are different, except in certain instances which I mentioned earlier in the thread, in which people say something so out there, it doesn't warrant protection under the "opinion" label. For example, someone telling me that Reload is a better Metallica album than Puppets.
If you don't want to explain it, fine. But I really was curious as to what you meant by that. Are you hinting that BCSL is an album with "highs and lows?"
I think I explained my stance on both albums pretty thoroughly to well beyond the point any vagueness of "I don't like it". I never even said I don't like it, so I'm not convinced you're actually reading my posts at all.
If you don't want to accept an opposing yet perfectly valid and reasonable opinion, that's fine. But at least my opinions are thought out and well explained, and not just crap like-
Also, LMAO @ saying Count is better instrumentally than the songs on Events.
So let's not go throwing around such stupid arguments against my posts, huh? :biggrin:
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"ADTOE is an album that doesn't dare to be bold, so has neither peaks nor lows. That is both its strength over recent albums, and its weakness."
I'm curious to know exactly you mean by this. It can't possibly be more ridiculous than what you said earlier about the band being in a rut and sounding tired.
My comment was self explanatory, and since you have trouble accepting other opinions, it' not worth my time to explain it further to you.
They (your comments about ADTOE) really weren't self explanatory lol. They were so vague that one could be justified in thinking they didn't mean anything at all other than "I don't like it." I accept all opinions that are different, except in certain instances which I mentioned earlier in the thread, in which people say something so out there, it doesn't warrant protection under the "opinion" label. For example, someone telling me that Reload is a better Metallica album than Puppets.
If you don't want to explain it, fine. But I really was curious as to what you meant by that. Are you hinting that BCSL is an album with "highs and lows?"
I think I explained my stance on both albums pretty thoroughly to well beyond the point any vagueness of "I don't like it". I never even said I don't like it, so I'm not convinced you're actually reading my posts at all.
If you don't want to accept an opposing yet perfectly valid and reasonable opinion, that's fine. But at least my opinions are thought out and well explained, and not just crap like-
Also, LMAO @ saying Count is better instrumentally than the songs on Events.
Yes, I suppose you explained your stance. Of course, that alone doesn't mean you weren't EXTREMELY vague to the point at which it just sounded funny/odd. Your stance could be just as vague as your explanation. The way in which you described the sound of the album and the opening track just sounded funny to me and made me question if you actually thought about it or were just going by the way the songs made you feel. The words you used conveyed your feeling towards the album, but I'm really not sure how anyone, without making a huge leap of faith, could confidently discern what you meant by "highs and lows" with respect to either the new album OR BCSL in the absence of a more detailed analysis of the albums. It could mean a bunch of different things. If you were trying to illustrate a point by saying that, you might have been better off building up to that by saying something more clear. I'm not saying it's not a valid opinion, I was just asking you to elaborate on what you meant by that.
Anyway, I'm not going to bicker over this. It's done lol. Your stance on Count is clear.
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The Best of Times: I can't understand why people dislike the song's lyrics. I find that they capture the subject perfectly.
Ever get taught in English lessons that you should avoid repetition of key words?
> Day days days day day days day days day day
:justjen
(To be fair that's just nitpicking. Lyrics are not essays :))
About 8 months after the release of BC&SL my own Father died after a very difficult struggle with Alzheimer's. I now cannot listen to the Strapping Young Lad song Almost Again without tearing up, yet the lyrics to that song are quite abstract and probably weren't written about death. Contrast this with TBOT, which is a song about someone's Father dying, that I can listen to without feeling even the slightest flicker of emotion...
Aside from the "fleeting winds verse" the lyrics largely read like a bullet point list of personal memories transcribed into lyrics almost verbatim. To everyone other than MP and his Dad, and perhaps a few close relatives, they don't mean a damned thing and they're written in such a literal way that I can't imagine someone else being able to find much of their own meaning within the lyrics.
It's not that I dislike the lyrics, as such, and I don't think the lyrics are bad, I just feel like they're insular and, from the POV of being concerned about the average listener, lazy: they're the alternate lyrics to the song that should only have ever been heard by MP, his Dad and close family (who doubtless react(ed) strongly to them) and the rest of us should've heard a generalised version capable of tugging the heart strings of anyone who's suffered a bereavement.
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While I agree that the lyrics of TBOT aren't great, isn't it incredibly selfish to expect that someone should change the lyrics to a song that was written as something deeply personal to them, and criticize it because you can't make it personal to you? Lyricists have no obligation to write lyrics vague enough for your own personal struggles.
Personally I find intentionally vague lyrics to be lazy, because then it's up to the listener to impart what they want on the lyrics and assume depth that isn't really there.
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I loved ANTR and Portnoys vocals never really bugged me that much
I felt that A Rite Of Passage was an average track, didnt really do much for me.
Wither seemed cheesy and the chorus sounds like something out of christian popular music.
I love The Shattered Fortress. Its my second favorite song in the AA suite next to The Glass Prison.
The Best Of Times is great. I think the lyrics are fine
TCOT is a decent song, but the section from 11:00 - 14:18 bores me out of my mind. Its also the only song that I noticed had horrendous lyrics.
Overall it is a decent album but ADTOE is MUCH MUCH better.
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While I agree that the lyrics of TBOT aren't great, isn't it incredibly selfish to expect that someone should change the lyrics to a song that was written as something deeply personal to them, and criticize it because you can't make it personal to you? Lyricists have no obligation to write lyrics vague enough for your own personal struggles.
Personally I find intentionally vague lyrics to be lazy, because then it's up to the listener to impart what they want on the lyrics and assume depth that isn't really there.
This. Though I do think that the lyrics are good, for precisely this reason.
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Personally I find intentionally vague lyrics to be lazy, because then it's up to the listener to impart what they want on the lyrics and assume depth that isn't really there.
No offense, but given that, when it comes to lyrics, you seemingly want to be beaten over the head by their meaning :P, it is grossly unfair to assume that lyrics that don't do that have no depth. Intentional vague lyrics can often times be really awesome, as it makes the listener think, and I love stuff that makes you think a bit. Anyone can write direct lyrics where the meaning is more than obvious, but conveying a lyrical message in a less than obvious way is something to be applauded, not scoffed at. Plus, they can sometimes mean one thing to one person and something else to another. That is the beauty of words. :hat
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Personally I find intentionally vague lyrics to be lazy, because then it's up to the listener to impart what they want on the lyrics and assume depth that isn't really there.
No offense, but given that, when it comes to lyrics, you seemingly want to be beaten over the head by their meaning :P, it is grossly unfair to assume that lyrics that don't do that have no depth. Intentional vague lyrics can often times be really awesome, as it makes the listener think, and I love stuff that makes you think a bit. Anyone can write direct lyrics where the meaning is more than obvious, but conveying a lyrical message in a less than obvious way is something to be applauded, not scoffed at. Plus, they can sometimes mean one thing to one person and something else to another. That is the beauty of words. :hat
I never said I want to be beaten over the head with lyrics, so I'll just ignore that comment :\, but why on Earth should Portnoy be writing vague lyrics about the death of his own father? The notion that Cruithne suggested is beyond absolutely ridiculous in this particular instance, and just plain selfish music listening. Portnoy wanted to pay tribute to his father with a song about the times they had, and writing vague lyrics about loss wouldn't have served the purpose of the song.
To me, if lyrics mean one thing to one person, and a different thing to someone else, then that is meaning isn't actually there. You're writing lyrics that rely on the listener putting their own meaning onto it.
Lyrics don't need to be vague to have an emotional response for the listener. Movies don't need to be vague to have depth and emotional resonance, and neither do songs. I don't have a problem with vague lyrics, but I'm not going to give them credit for an interpretation they didn't actually write themselves.
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ANTR: I enjoy the song and length, the only part where I feel it drags is the weird bebot part before the final chorus.
AROP: it's a cool song but suffers from constant motion syndrome
Wither: an excellent song that can relate to many things, I interpret this as someone with a roadblock in their life, then rewrites.his life beginning anew.
The Shattered Fortress: A great summary to end the AA Suite, The use of past sections really,makes this song scream I have overcome this addiction. Which is why I have no problem with the rehashing because those represent that moment in that step. Which is one thing I think people don't do with music as much.
TBOT: Love it, but the overuse of day is too much. The rest of the lyrics are great because all he's doing is deafening his time with his father, it's a song about his father nothing more nothing less. It's no different than Tool - 10,000 Days (pt. 1 & 2)
TCOT: Another great song, the lyrics like all lyrics don't bother me since I hardly listen to what the lyrics say. The only odd bit is the "down the cellar stairs" melodies, they're odd and ruin the songs momentum. At the end it gets real heartfelt like he felt he was really going to die, then he uplifts his head.and sees the daylight break through the black clouds revealing the silver lining.
Overall it's an excellent album I enjoy playing, it's the album I wanted to see a tour here but sadly nope only AROP opening for Maiden, which they should've ended with The Dark Eternal Night, as that song would leave non fans wanting,more.
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I don't particularly care how vague the lyrics to TBOT are or should be, but I agree that the lyrics are pretty juvenile. It's the one blemish on what is an otherwise perfect song.
EDIT: I was just thinking about this, and Wither came to mind. There's a song that could have benefited from some vaguer lyrics.
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I have heard several songs about people's fathers or loved ones passing away. TBOT suffers because it's SO specific that no one really outside of Portnoy himself can actually relate to much of the song, unless you are just relating to the general idea or a line or two here or there. But if the song was a bit more .....not vague, but less specific to portnoy's life, it would have been better.
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To me, if lyrics mean one thing to one person, and a different thing to someone else, then that is meaning isn't actually there. You're writing lyrics that rely on the listener putting their own meaning onto it.
This, I have to disagree with. Sometimes a lyricist (or writer in general) can have a very specific meaning they are putting into the song, but can consciously choose to be vague about that meaning so that a listener (or reader) can get whatever meaning they want from it. The best example of this, for me, is riddles. When you create a riddle, you have a specific answer in mind - but that doesn't mean that another person can't come up with a different solution to the riddle, an answer they personally like better.
True, sometimes vague lyrics are just gibberish, and anyone getting meaning from them is finding something that wasn't really intended to be there. But sometimes vague lyrics are riddles to be deciphered, and maybe you stumble upon the artist's intention or maybe you find your own interpretation that is just as valid to you.
This is not to say that vague lyrics are superior. I do, personally, tend to find them more fun. Just because I can stare at a song like Under a Glass Moon for eight hours trying to figure out what the hell it means. Sure, whatever I come up with will probably be wrong, since the lyrics might not have any concrete meaning at all, but I still enjoy trying to puzzle it out. Whereas with straightforward lyrics, there usually isn't as much to think about. Which doesn't mean they're bad, it just means they have fewer layers for me to enjoy.
Then again, it's also possible to find your own meaning in songs with straightforward lyrics. Wither is a song that is quite obviously about the difficulty of the writing process, and I don't dispute that, but it also has other more personal meaning for me. And while the meaning I get from it was almost certainly not intentional, I still connect with the song more because of that imagined meaning, and I don't think there's anything wrong with it.
I guess my point is that to me, lyrics can be good or bad regardless of whether they are vague or straightforward.
Anyway. As for the ADTOE vs BC&SL debate, I find the whole debate pretty amusing. Some people say ADTOE is a 'return to form' while others say it is 'stale' or 'DT-paint-by-numbers.' What neither side seems to realize is that both sides are basically saying the same thing: ADTOE is a return to a more classic Dream Theater style, with nothing particularly new or groundbreaking. Some people think that's boring because they enjoy listening to DT explore new styles. Some people think it's great because they love classic DT. But at the end of the day, I don't think anyone can really dispute that with ADTOE, DT returned more to their comfort zone, whether you consider that a bad thing or a good one.
For me, it doesn't really matter. I think ADTOE is a great album, regardless of how it compares to classic or newer albums. OTBOA certainly isn't anything new for DT, but I still think it's a great song.
As for BC&SL (hey, I'm finally getting to the actual point of the topic!), I think it is a good-but-not-great album. I don't actually have any problem with ANTR - okay, maybe the Day After Day section is a little weak, but I don't mind it, and it doesn't take anything away from the song for me. As a metalhead, if anything, ANTR is closer to my usual tastes than most Dream Theater music. A Rite of Passage is a fun and catchy song, but not particularly exciting. One of those songs that I enjoy whenever I listen to it, but that I rarely actually listen to anymore. Wither is a song I love despite, or maybe even because of, its relative simplicity. The Count of Tuscany is amazing. I'm not fond of the lyrics, but I'm able to zone out and not pay attention to the lyrics. Unlike most people, I do love the vocal melodies, including the chorus. And it is instrumentally gorgeous. Definitely my favorite song on the album.
The Shattered Fortress is... okay. I guess it was a decent way to wrap up the suite. I don't really have any problem with it, I suppose. But I look at it as basically a patchwork quilt of sections and melodies from the rest of the suite. And while those melodies are awesome, they're also recycled. I've heard them before, and the way they are combined isn't particularly exciting or interesting to me. It is sort of like listening to a patchy summary of the rest of the suite, with a couple cool new things added. I would say it's the one song on the album where I can understand what people mean when they say it feels like the band is 'tired' or 'in a rut'. I can kind of imagine the band sitting in the studio going, "Oh, yeah, we have to finish the suite. Mike, any ideas? No? Okay, let's just throw some stuff together." Not that that's what actually happened, of course, but I do feel that the song is a somewhat stale finale for the saga.
The Best of Times... Okay. This is relevant to the recent debate. I agree with Blob that Mike Portnoy had no obligation to make this song's lyrics more open and relatable - he was writing a song for himself, for catharsis and expression, and that's great. I have no problem with that. But it does have the side effect of making me feel like an outsider when I listen to the song. It is the emotional equivalent of an inside joke - I'm sure it's hilarious, and you're entitled to tell it, but I just don't get it. So, while I don't begrudge MP for writing the lyrics he did, the lyrics do take away from my enjoyment of the song. Instrumentally it's a very nice piece of music.
I honestly think BC&SL's biggest problem is the length of its songs. Not that length is boring or anything - it's just that if you happen to dislike one song, you probably dislike a significant chunk of the album. Like, for me, I get a little tired of The Shattered Fortress and sometimes The Best of Times - that's one third of the album right there. Factor in A Rite of Passage, which is a song that I enjoy but often skip, and I'm left with just three songs on the album I consistently enjoy. That's simply a low percentage, when it comes to DT albums for me. Compare it with an album like I&W, where I adore every song, or an album like Octavarium, where I don't love every song but do love the vast majority of the music, and BC&SL simply floats toward the bottom of my rankings.
So in a nutshell, I think it is a good album that just happens to be one of DT's weakest because of a few weak links in the chain.
(...Kudos to anyone who made it through this entire post.)
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Personally I find intentionally vague lyrics to be lazy, because then it's up to the listener to impart what they want on the lyrics and assume depth that isn't really there.
No offense, but given that, when it comes to lyrics, you seemingly want to be beaten over the head by their meaning :P, it is grossly unfair to assume that lyrics that don't do that have no depth. Intentional vague lyrics can often times be really awesome, as it makes the listener think, and I love stuff that makes you think a bit. Anyone can write direct lyrics where the meaning is more than obvious, but conveying a lyrical message in a less than obvious way is something to be applauded, not scoffed at. Plus, they can sometimes mean one thing to one person and something else to another. That is the beauty of words. :hat
I never said I want to be beaten over the head with lyrics, so I'll just ignore that comment :\, but why on Earth should Portnoy be writing vague lyrics about the death of his own father? The notion that Cruithne suggested is beyond absolutely ridiculous in this particular instance, and just plain selfish music listening. Portnoy wanted to pay tribute to his father with a song about the times they had, and writing vague lyrics about loss wouldn't have served the purpose of the song.
To me, if lyrics mean one thing to one person, and a different thing to someone else, then that is meaning isn't actually there. You're writing lyrics that rely on the listener putting their own meaning onto it.
Lyrics don't need to be vague to have an emotional response for the listener. Movies don't need to be vague to have depth and emotional resonance, and neither do songs. I don't have a problem with vague lyrics, but I'm not going to give them credit for an interpretation they didn't actually write themselves.
I never said he should have written vague lyrics about his father's death; I was speaking in more general terms. And I did not agree with Cruithne.
But going back to the generalities I was speaking in, no, you have not to my knowledge said, "I want to be beaten over the head with lyrics," but the way you talk about them certainly indicates that. Saying that something with multiple interpretations shouldn't be a credit to the writer is insane. Believe it or not, plenty of writers are clever and intelligent enough to write and/or word things in a way that can come across in different ways to different people.
Lastly, I also never said lyrics have to be vague to get an emotional response from the listener, nor do I only like vague lyrics. Good lyrics are good lyrics, just like good music is good music. And lyrics, like music, come in all different kind of shapes and forms. :)
Edit: I agree with most of what Jaffa said right before me about this. :tup :tup
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"Good lyrics are good lyrics..bad ones are bad"
IMO There you have it. It's the whole point of BC&SL. The music is good but the lyrics and vocal melodies ruin most songs.
I have problems with parts of each song
ANTR - Grunt part and probably some exaggeration on the later instrumental part which bores the hell outta me. I made an edit that lasts 10 minutes and I love it.
AROP - DT by numbers I have no problem with it but the instrumental drags..
Wither - Like it and the piano version is adorable
TSF - fuck me... the "Inventory.. serenity.. analysis" grunt stabs me 400000 times..apart from that it's a good end to the suite.
TBOT - Love it but yeah.. the lyrics ruin it. They are bad in a simplistic "i miss you dad" made by a fourth grader.. My biggest grudge it's that my girlfriend loves that song and it was supposed to be "our" song but when we read the lyrics... u-oh.. the musical part screams "romantic lyrics" a la I walk beside you.
TCOT - Worst offender of the lyrical non-sense. If they had released this song with these lyrics on a B-Side it would show the fun side of DT because they are a total joke. Especially where we are talking about the song that is the longest one and features a lot of musical prowess, pr0g and a "don't fuck with me I'm making classic DT status" song attitude. Still love it when I'm not thinking about the lyrics.
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But going back to the generalities I was speaking in, no, you have to my knowledge said, "I want to be beaten over the head with lyrics," but the way you talk about them certainly indicates that. Saying that something with multiple interpretations shouldn't be a credit to the writer is insane. Believe it or not, plenty of writers are clever and intelligent enough to write and/or word things in a way that can come across in different ways to different people.
And many times it gives the writer a chance to play with words and vocabulary to make the lyrics flow in a way that might not be possible if you're giving someone the technical rundown of events. It's probably harder to write songs in a more mundane way, much in the same way Rudess mentions how difficult it is to write "simple" songs. In the end, though, it ultimately comes down to the writer's skill with the pen.
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Could it be that the Black Clouds represent the lyrics, and the Silver Linings being the music?
"don't fuck with me I'm making classic DT"
:rollin
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I remember being doubtful when I gave the "It's up there with the best of 'em" vote. It's definitely not a very good album. So I'll go with the "Yeeeah, noooo" expression of the boss from Office Space.
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I seem to like this album much more than the average DT fan, I was surprised to see the lack of love for the Shattered Fortress on this forum which I think is a really cool song.
I think the whole album is brilliant but it is unfortunately dragged down by Portnoy's vocals at times which can be quite cringe worthy.
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https://www.youtube.com/all_comments?v=Rv22tPg7AJc
7:05 " This is the last time you're gonna see me playing "..
Oh Irony.
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I seem to like this album much more than the average DT fan, I was surprised to see the lack of love for the Shattered Fortress on this forum which I think is a really cool song.
I think the whole album is brilliant but it is unfortunately dragged down by Portnoy's vocals at times which can be quite cringe worthy.
SF is a cool song. I think people were down on it because it was recycled riffs from previous songs. If it were a stand alone piece consisting of new material then it would get a better reaction.
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The lyrics "legend has been traced...all the finest wines improve with age" means the count was trying to give him a taste if the rare vintage; dead soldier wine... Mmm
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I seem to like this album much more than the average DT fan, I was surprised to see the lack of love for the Shattered Fortress on this forum which I think is a really cool song.
I think the whole album is brilliant but it is unfortunately dragged down by Portnoy's vocals at times which can be quite cringe worthy.
SF is a cool song. I think people were down on it because it was recycled riffs from previous songs. If it were a stand alone piece consisting of new material then it would get a better reaction.
Or if the 12 Step Suite were written in one shot.
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Black Clouds & Silver Linings is a strange album for me. I love it, I genuinely love all the pieces (save "Wither," which is more a hit/miss with me), but I'm just not always in the mood for the album. I'm like that with all music; I genuinely enjoy everything I listen to, and if in the right mood, I can obsess over anything. But it all depends on the mood I'm in.
"A Nightmare to Remember" is a killer song when I'm in a heavy mood, and I'll gladly put up with the repetition towards the end. I mean, St. Anger is one of my favourite albums of all time, so repetition really isn't much of a problem for me. As for the "Day after day" section, I do find it absolutely hilarious, but I don't detract that from the song or anything. xD I just find it hilarious. A mood whiplash that I'm pretty used to by now. It puts a bit of a "This happened years ago, isn't it funny in retrospect" feel. Now, the lyrics don't quite do that, but the sound does.
"A Rite of Passage," total fun at parties. Great to listen to when I want background music. Sure, it's not that complicated or spectacular, but music doesn't have to be. Sometimes music can just be background music! And if anything, "A Nightmare to Remember's" repetitive ending is a good way of segueing listeners into that "background music" feel. It's just feel-good music to enjoy, y'know? One of the reasons Dream Theater is so accessible to non-prog fans. :D
"Wither," again, nothing too special. Though by this point, I'm still in that background music mood. ..I'll be honest, I can see a lot of reasons to criticize this album.
"The Shattered Fortress," god, see, this is a weird thing. Because this is one of the best endings to an epic that I have ever heard in my life, yet I can also totally understand why most people can't get into it. It's because the Twelve-Step Suite wasn't exactly blatant; the band never exactly said "LISTEN TO THESE SONGS IN ONE SET ORDER," so people tend to just... consider them together without listening to them all as one. But I swear, when you stop looking at the songs as "songs" and look at them as just movements, the entire epic e0iwfodri0fdso it's just tops, y'know? This is an ending that always gets me pumped, the reprisals are orgasmic when put in context, and I love how it all fits together. Though yes, as an individual song, this is a very strange piece that does not sound right at all.
"The Best of Times," I enjoy a lot. Beautiful, for sure. As for the lyrics, I view it as if it were a song from a rock opera taken out of context. There's clearly a lot of "plot" elements not explained, but I understand the idea: Mike is singing to his dying father, and he wishes he could sing forever. And the fact that Mike was able to convey the idea of the lyrics even though we don't fully get the specifics, well, I think that's admirable. We don't have to know every single event he's talking about; the idea is clear: They're nostalgic memories of a perfect role model. We all probably have memories like that. I say "probably" because I don't quite, but I understand most people do. xD Hell, this song makes me cry because it reminds me of reading stories of amazing fathers, of hearing about my friends' amazing fathers, and then remembering that I never really had that.
..but I digress. "The Count of Tuscany!" Gorgeous, gorgeous. And, as expected, I seem to be one of the few who loves the lyrics. I dunno, man! I see them as more of a playful and quirky homage to older progressive rock (Genesis, for instance!). It has the characters that attempt to be colourful, the plot told through lyrics, the occasional jab at wordplay, and the beautiful ending. To me, it sounds like it knows the situation wasn't that bad, but it's being quirky about it to pay homage. I mean, just listen to the music-- not the lyrics, but the instruments-- throughout the second five minutes. That sounds quirky as hell. It sounds like what I commonly associate with prog: Goofy melodies, a "noodly" feel! One thing's for sure: The music does not sound serious other than the bookending passages. And then there's the big "Xanadu"-esque guitar volume-swell segment, making me think more and more that it's just a loving homage to classic prog. ..am I making any sense?
I will.. admit that I don't think Black Clouds & Silver Linings works best when listening to it all the way through. The songs are all rather separate instances, meant to be listened to in different mindsets to each other. At least, to me. I find the main mistake Dream Theater made with the album was labeling it as a concept album; after all, not exactly all the songs are about "every black cloud has a silver lining," are they? I have the same complaint with A Dramatic Turn of Events; they're labeled as concept albums, but most of the songs don't share the motifs they're claimed to. Instead, I treat both albums as just collections of songs, and if I don't fully appreciate a song on one listening, I'll try all kinds of different things until I get it right.
..but then again, what do I know?
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Excellent post!
Really agree with your verdict on A Rite of Passage. A weird thing about Dream Theater fans is that for quite a few of them, the image they have of the band in their head doesn't really match the reality of the band. Once every two years, there's a thread where we all make up our own versions of the songs from the upcoming album. And without fail, there are about five which go something like this:
The Loquaciousness of Time
1. Jehovah's Regret
2. Expounding on a Nightmare
3. Kaleidoscopic Tranquillity
4. Constantinople
i. Memories of the Twilight Realm
ii. Egregious Facsimile
5. David and Goliath
6. The Manifold Idiosyncracies of a Dying Man
7. The Loquaciousness of Time pt. 1
8. The Loquaciousness of Time pt. 2
And I always think "Have I stumbled onto the Mars Volta message board or something?" Dream Theater have never been that band. Maybe I'm just being vindictive, or arrogant - maybe my image of the band is a little skewed too. I don't think it is, I managed to aaaalmost guess one last time - made up a track called "Under the Surface," get in :hat - but you see it all over. Another example, there'll be the periodic "I put on some Dream Theater on the jukebox" thread and there'll always be two or three posts along the lines of "did everyone's nose start bleeding" or sometimes even "that's not fair on everyone else in the pub!" Almost a self loathing, like Dream Theater are this massive impenetrable fortress of a band that we should really keep to ourselves, with eldritch compositions that most normal people would quite rightly hate and we shouldn't dare inflict on them. But, by and large... I'd say they're very unpretentious!
They write big heavy riffs, soaring choruses, blistering solos, striking melodies - what you see is pretty much what you get. There's the odd baffling instrumental break, the odd Dance of Eternity or intro to Octavarium but even something like The Dark Eternal Night is built around a riff that even a toddler could headbang to. Most of the wacky instrumental stuff is very much kept behind-the-curtain. Time signatures are employed so deftly that most people won't even notice, just leap straight to the nifty melody. These Walls, for example, can't pin down a time signature - but that's a song your gran could quite happily sing along to.
Dream Theater are very much prog rock with an emphasis on the rock, and they have been ever since A Fortune in Lies. They are incredibly accessible, very down-to-earth; miles away from the latin-spouting jazz noisesters a fair chunk of us seem to bashfully think they are, and it's very much one of ARoP's strengths. Killer riff, rousing chorus, solo break, end. So, keen observation, and one that I don't feel like I see even slightly often enough.
Dream Theater are a band for whom, by and large, a solo is just a solo. Not an ounce of pretention in their bodies.
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"These Walls" is in 6/8 I believe.
I voted "it's ok" back when this thread was first made. Ever since ADToE was released, I like to just kind of forget Black Clouds, and Systematic Chaos exist.
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"These Walls" is in 6/8 I believe.
It is for the most part, although it throws in bars of 5/8 during the verses to mix it up, which gives a unique phrasing to the vocal lines, and really helps drive the song imo.
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"These Walls" is in 6/8 I believe.
It is for the most part, although it throws in bars of 5/8 during the verses to mix it up, which gives a unique phrasing to the vocal lines, and really helps drive the song imo.
Yep!
Which... demonstrates my point pretty well, actually! Really easy not to notice, absolutely no shame in it. Much of the fiddly stuff is hidden behind the curtain. It doesn't jar - you don't notice something's off-kilter, just feel the effects.
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"These Walls" is in 6/8 I believe.
It is for the most part, although it throws in bars of 5/8 during the verses to mix it up, which gives a unique phrasing to the vocal lines, and really helps drive the song imo.
Yep!
Which... demonstrates my point pretty well, actually! Really easy not to notice, absolutely no shame in it. Much of the fiddly stuff is hidden behind the curtain. It doesn't jar - you don't notice something's off-kilter, just feel the effects.
It doesn't feel like it's there just to show off because they can. If it was straight up 6/8 during the softer verses, it would sound too calm and ballady, but that doesn't fit with the lyrical themes. The use of 5/8 just adds that little bit of tension and unease to propel the song forward, just enough to force it out of that calm 6/8 rhythm, without being at all jarring to the casual listener.
DT are quite good at making odd time signatures sound natural without sounding contrived, as a lot of other prog metal music does to me.
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Plus for the most part - the first three or four songs on " Octavarium " are primarily in 4/4. Only These Walls throws in some 6/8 and 5/8 action.
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The sequence from jp's solo at the end of 'Times' to the chord progression at the start of the Count is fucking ecstacy. Up there with Hells- Lines and Shadows- Scarred for my favourite song transitions
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Just read through some of my old posts in this thread. I can't believe I thought this album wasn't constant BALLS BALLS BALLS.
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I voted "It was good". Nowadays, I would have to give it some thought, as it now borderlines the OK option.
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I voted "It was good". Nowadays, I would have to give it some thought, as it now borderlines the OK option.
Totally. Not terrible, but in retrospect not radically different than its predecessor.
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Well, I guess there are some underlying similarities, but I still feel that BCSL is still superior to SC in most parameters. Anyway, the decline of Black Clouds is also due to the quality of the following release, at least to me.
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Why would another release affect your opinion of Black Clouds? It's still the same album. It declined for me, at best ok now, but that happened well before ADToE. ...I also never thought ADToE was that great.
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:tupThe album is still the same, of course, but since ADTOE is pretty much the closest thing to what I want DT to sound since Awake, its release caused quite a shift of my appreciation. Nothing dramatic, I just like it a tad less than two years ago. I still play it on my car regularly
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I'm surprised that so many people thought it's one of their best albums... I'm not trying to sound condescending or bash the album - the amount of those votes is just huge considering how much criticism BC&SL gets now.
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Why would another release affect your opinion of Black Clouds? It's still the same album. It declined for me, at best ok now, but that happened well before ADToE. ...I also never thought ADToE was that great.
When things are put in perspective, or made relative by newer things or different expectations.
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I put it as a middle pack album. It was my first DT album and I think it's much better than most say it is, but having heard the rest of their discography, there's no way I could keep it in the top-tier.
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Really dropped off for me.
I avoid ANTR because of the.... whatever you call it vocal section.
AROP just feels flawed to me. Don't even know why.
Wither's actually held up the best. Just a great song.
Lyrics in TSF really bother me. Don't like other little things.
Lyrics in TBOT again don't fully appeal to me.
Same with lyrics in TCOT.
One thing I appreciate about ADTOE, I guess, is how much better the lyrics are.
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What dragged this album down was the length of the 6 songs. It has the usual key guitar solo sections. Thats all for me. I enjoy The Shattered Fortress a lot, its a good summary of the subject matter using the past riffs as is or modified, doesnt bother me its not all new as those past struggles are being resolved at this point and the music potrays those said struggles.
I didnt enjoy AROP much then and dont now. Although I like the vocal melodies. The rest remain on the playlist as always. But I do think this albums length and song ratio dragged it down immensly.
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While it's not as bad as Systematic Chaos, it's just OK to me.
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I love both SC and BCSL for what they are. They're not my favorite style of DT, but I listen to music with an open mind and try to appreciate it for what it is, as long as it's not poorly made. All the SC and BCSL bashing is simply ridiculous in my opinion. But you can never keep people from bashing in a forum. It ties them together more than anything else.
What's missing on these albums for me personally is the happy, uplifting, major-chord side of Prog music. The silver linings, so to speak. For me, music shouldn't be a sky full of black clouds. I simply need some positive, poppy goodness. But that wasn't really resolved with ADTOE neither. Sure, there are some major chords, but there's nothing as uplifting as Surrounded, Solitary Shell or even the verses of The Best of Times.
Hope the next album will get a bit closer to that style, but I'm sure it'll be awesome no matter what.
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I love both SC and BCSL for what they are. They're not my favorite style of DT, but I listen to music with an open mind and try to appreciate it for what it is, as long as it's not poorly made. All the SC and BCSL bashing is simply ridiculous in my opinion. But you can never keep people from bashing in a forum. It ties them together more than anything else.
What's missing on these albums for me personally is the happy, uplifting, major-chord side of Prog music. The silver linings, so to speak. For me, music shouldn't be a sky full of black clouds. I simply need some positive, poppy goodness. But that wasn't really resolved with ADTOE neither. Sure, there are some major chords, but there's nothing as uplifting as Surrounded, Solitary Shell or even the verses of The Best of Times.
Hope the next album will get a bit closer to that style, but I'm sure it'll be awesome no matter what.
Wow, you must be the ultimate Steven Wilson fan! :omg:
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I love both SC and BCSL for what they are. They're not my favorite style of DT, but I listen to music with an open mind and try to appreciate it for what it is, as long as it's not poorly made. All the SC and BCSL bashing is simply ridiculous in my opinion. But you can never keep people from bashing in a forum. It ties them together more than anything else.
What's missing on these albums for me personally is the happy, uplifting, major-chord side of Prog music. The silver linings, so to speak. For me, music shouldn't be a sky full of black clouds. I simply need some positive, poppy goodness. But that wasn't really resolved with ADTOE neither. Sure, there are some major chords, but there's nothing as uplifting as Surrounded, Solitary Shell or even the verses of The Best of Times.
Hope the next album will get a bit closer to that style, but I'm sure it'll be awesome no matter what.
Wow, you must be the ultimate Steven Wilson fan! :omg:
:lol Mind to elaborate?
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I love both SC and BCSL for what they are. They're not my favorite style of DT, but I listen to music with an open mind and try to appreciate it for what it is, as long as it's not poorly made. All the SC and BCSL bashing is simply ridiculous in my opinion. But you can never keep people from bashing in a forum. It ties them together more than anything else.
What's missing on these albums for me personally is the happy, uplifting, major-chord side of Prog music. The silver linings, so to speak. For me, music shouldn't be a sky full of black clouds. I simply need some positive, poppy goodness. But that wasn't really resolved with ADTOE neither. Sure, there are some major chords, but there's nothing as uplifting as Surrounded, Solitary Shell or even the verses of The Best of Times.
Hope the next album will get a bit closer to that style, but I'm sure it'll be awesome no matter what.
Wow, you must be the ultimate Steven Wilson fan! :omg:
:lol Mind to elaborate?
That won't be needed ;)
https://www.quickmeme.com/Dissatisfied-Steven-Wilson/?upcoming
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I love both SC and BCSL for what they are. They're not my favorite style of DT, but I listen to music with an open mind and try to appreciate it for what it is, as long as it's not poorly made. All the SC and BCSL bashing is simply ridiculous in my opinion. But you can never keep people from bashing in a forum. It ties them together more than anything else.
What's missing on these albums for me personally is the happy, uplifting, major-chord side of Prog music. The silver linings, so to speak. For me, music shouldn't be a sky full of black clouds. I simply need some positive, poppy goodness. But that wasn't really resolved with ADTOE neither. Sure, there are some major chords, but there's nothing as uplifting as Surrounded, Solitary Shell or even the verses of The Best of Times.
Hope the next album will get a bit closer to that style, but I'm sure it'll be awesome no matter what.
Wow, you must be the ultimate Steven Wilson fan! :omg:
:lol Mind to elaborate?
That won't be needed ;)
https://www.quickmeme.com/Dissatisfied-Steven-Wilson/?upcoming
Yeah, those are hilarious. :lol
I thought you were either referring to this or the fact that I respect changes in style by a musician and usually enjoy what he does nonetheless, thus I could really be the ultimate SW fan. :biggrin:
But well, I love me some dark, depressing stuff, too. With Dream Theater it's just... Firstly, they used to have uplifting parts and that somehow just vanished and secondly, I think it would really suit the music. This exact type of Prog Metal just needs happy rushesque parts, otherwise there's just something missing.
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I love both SC and BCSL for what they are. They're not my favorite style of DT, but I listen to music with an open mind and try to appreciate it for what it is, as long as it's not poorly made. All the SC and BCSL bashing is simply ridiculous in my opinion. But you can never keep people from bashing in a forum. It ties them together more than anything else.
What's missing on these albums for me personally is the happy, uplifting, major-chord side of Prog music. The silver linings, so to speak. For me, music shouldn't be a sky full of black clouds. I simply need some positive, poppy goodness. But that wasn't really resolved with ADTOE neither. Sure, there are some major chords, but there's nothing as uplifting as Surrounded, Solitary Shell or even the verses of The Best of Times.
Hope the next album will get a bit closer to that style, but I'm sure it'll be awesome no matter what.
Wow, you must be the ultimate Steven Wilson fan! :omg:
:lol Mind to elaborate?
That won't be needed ;)
https://www.quickmeme.com/Dissatisfied-Steven-Wilson/?upcoming
Yeah, those are hilarious. :lol
I thought you were either referring to this or the fact that I respect changes in style by a musician and usually enjoy what he does nonetheless, thus I could really be the ultimate SW fan. :biggrin:
But well, I love me some dark, depressing stuff, too. With Dream Theater it's just... Firstly, they used to have uplifting parts and that somehow just vanished and secondly, I think it would really suit the music. This exact type of Prog Metal just needs happy rushesque parts, otherwise there's just something missing.
That may be the reason why I&W is so highly praised.
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Exactly and that's the reason why it's my favorite DT album. It's just so warm, positive and awesome. :blush
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Exactly and that's the reason why it's my favorite DT album. It's just so warm, positive and awesome. :blush
No need to be ashamed of loving things warm, positive and awesome :)
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Exactly and that's the reason why it's my favorite DT album. It's just so warm, positive and awesome. :blush
No need to be ashamed of loving things warm, positive and awesome :)
Especially if they are called Images And Words. Or breasts :rollin
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Hooray for boobies. :hat
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*hides*
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*hides*
You brought this upon yourself, you can't just hide or flee!
Maybe we should get back on topic, before hef arrives...
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Nothing about the album gives me an emotional connection. ADTOE does that. As well as increased blood flow to my penis.
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You brought this upon yourself, you can't just hide or flee!
Maybe we should get back on topic, before hef arrives...
YOU'VE BROUGHT IT UPON YOURSELF
IT'S SLOW BUT FINAL WITH NOTHING TO GAIN
Whoops, wrong DT :D
I think they should have called IAW "Breasts".
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I agree with you, snap. Well, maybe not on the increased blood flow, but that's just details. :lol
You brought this upon yourself, you can't just hide or flee!
Maybe we should get back on topic, before hef arrives...
YOU'VE BROUGHT IT UPON YOURSELF
IT'S SLOW BUT FINAL WITH NOTHING TO GAIN
Whoops, wrong DT :D
I think they should have called IAW "Breasts".
Drool Me Under
Another Boob
Take The Tits
Surrounded
Milkopolis
Under A Flesh Boob
Squeeze For Milk
Leaning To Pinch
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I find the songs on BC&SL to not be terrible, but they are fairly forgettable.
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I find the songs on BC&SL to not be terrible, but they are fairly forgettable.
You're right, they kind of are.
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I find the songs on BC&SL to not be terrible, but they are fairly forgettable.
You're right, they kind of are.
Well, you can say whatever you want, but The Count Of Tuscany isn't forgettable, by any means!
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I find the songs on BC&SL to not be terrible, but they are fairly forgettable.
You're right, they kind of are.
Well, you can say whatever you want, but The Count Of Tuscany isn't forgettable, by any means!
If you can only defend one song on the album, it's not much of a defense.
Just saying. For the record I wouldn't describe any song on the album as forgettable, myself.
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I think the only thing you guys always forget is that your expectations are too damn high. :biggrin:
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I find the songs on BC&SL to not be terrible, but they are fairly forgettable.
You're right, they kind of are.
Well, you can say whatever you want, but The Count Of Tuscany isn't forgettable, by any means!
Absolutely- and it's the best track on the album (by far).
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Since 2009, I have listened to this album less and less. The last time I listened to this was at least several months ago and the only song I can really get through is The Count of Tuscany. None of the other songs really interest me anymore.
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I regularly listen to ANTR and The shattered fortress, this songs really make my day 58% better!
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Well, I don't ever listen to this album at all. :lol And it's been one hell of a while since I listened to I&W. That doesn't have to say anything about the quality of it, though. Most of the time I rather listen to music that has come out lately or that currently evokes my interest.
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I only have The Shattered Fortress and The Count Of Tuscany on my computer anymore. BC&SL would have made a better 2 song EP.
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The Covers CD was miles better than BC/SL proper IMO.
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The Covers CD was miles better than BC/SL proper IMO.
ha, I was about to post that I think I enjoy the cover songs more than the actual album.
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Since 2009, I have listened to this album less and less. The last time I listened to this was at least several months ago and the only song I can really get through is The Count of Tuscany. None of the other songs really interest me anymore.
Pretty much this!!
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The Covers CD was miles better than BC/SL proper IMO.
ha, I was about to post that I think I enjoy the cover songs more than the actual album.
:tup
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I find the songs on BC&SL to not be terrible, but they are fairly forgettable.
I don't think anything on BCASL is forgettable, for better or worse. I find ADTOE more forgettable tbh.
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I find the songs on BC&SL to not be terrible, but they are fairly forgettable.
I don't think anything on BCASL is forgettable, for better or worse. I find ADTOE more forgettable tbh.
This is true, the only forgettable song on BCSL to me is Shattered Fortress. I sadly remember the rest.
And I agree about ADTOE.
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I think ADToE is pretty forgettable too outside of a few songs. I don't even feel an urge listen to it any more. :-\
It's been a while since I've listened to BC&SL as well, although I do remember it holding my interest longer than ADToE did.
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I think Mike Portnoy nailed the problem with BCSL in the pre-publicity, of all places. To paraphrase...
"What does Black Clouds and Silver Linings sound like?"
"It sounds like the tenth DT album."
It's fine. It rocks, it rolls, crushes, fiddles, zips along... it picks up a couple of creaks and groans along the way, but the odd flaw isn't what undermines the album, not by a long chalk. I'd happily triple the number of rubbish bits if it meant a more adventurous album. As it is? It's just another slab of noughties Dream Theater. If you like what they did in the decade, you'll like BCSL, but not much. If you don't, you'll dislike it... but not with a passion.
Mike Portnoy leaving Dream Theater was probably the best thing that could've happened to BCSL, because it draws a line under it. Gives it a part in the legend. The Count of Tuscany isn't just another long DT song, it's Mike Portnoy's last. The album summarises 00s DT, it's the sum total of that decade - what you'd get if you put Six Degrees, Train of Thought, Octavarium and Systematic Chaos in a blender and added water. It's got its own place in the discography, its own role to play in the myth, but had they gone on to make "just the eleventh Dream Theater album," with the same line-up, same tricks, at the same approximate place in life... well, Mike Portnoy was absolutely right to suggest a hiatus. He was right on the money, something was needed, they were in a position where they could've ended up just putting out a series of BCSLs.
Sadly, he'd come up with the second-best solution.
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I think Mike Portnoy nailed the problem with BCSL in the pre-publicity, of all places. To paraphrase...
"What does Black Clouds and Silver Linings sound like?"
"It sounds like the tenth DT album."
It's fine. It rocks, it rolls, crushes, fiddles, zips along... it picks up a couple of creaks and groans along the way, but the odd flaw isn't what undermines the album, not by a long chalk. I'd happily triple the number of rubbish bits if it meant a more adventurous album. As it is? It's just another slab of noughties Dream Theater. If you like what they did in the decade, you'll like BCSL, but not much. If you don't, you'll dislike it... but not with a passion.
Mike Portnoy leaving Dream Theater was probably the best thing that could've happened to BCSL, because it draws a line under it. Gives it a part in the legend. The Count of Tuscany isn't just another long DT song, it's Mike Portnoy's last. The album summarises 00s DT, it's the sum total of that decade - what you'd get if you put Six Degrees, Train of Thought, Octavarium and Systematic Chaos in a blender and added water. It's got its own place in the discography, its own role to play in the myth, but had they gone on to make "just the eleventh Dream Theater album," with the same line-up, same tricks, at the same approximate place in life... well, Mike Portnoy was absolutely right to suggest a hiatus. He was right on the money, something was needed, they were in a position where they could've ended up just putting out a series of BCSLs.
Sadly, he'd come up with the second-best solution.
With all due respect, the bold part is simply not true. You can't make generalizations like that, especially when it comes to music. You can't even come close to creating a valid theory this way. Impossible.
Everything you say is just putting way too much thought into the status of this album or DT's catalogue in general. The statement that this album is not adventurous enough is merely your opinion. I think there is more than enough on this album that seperates it from the rest of DT's catalogue. Sure, it's not exactly experimental, but neither is ADTOE.
What's the thing is this: It's a piece of music, you either like it or you don't. People are going to formulate their opinions on it as soon as it comes out and there will be opinions that are more fashionable than others and they get some kind of fan-following. It becomes a collective opinion. It's not even about the music anymore, it's about being Team Edward or Team Jacob. Sometimes the following is so big that it seems like this opinion has become a fact. And then the question that remains is just: "What the hell is wrong with BCSL?" and you can come up with all kinds of answers. DT have played safe, MP growls on every song, the lyrics are all about Italy, somehow.
You can say things like that about every album. I&W isn't that good because... well, it's not heavy at all. They tried to sound heavy, but the production and mix of the album totally destroyed this attempt. The drums sound awful. The snare is electronic, Jesus Christ, that sounds so ridiculous. In total, this album has such a strong 80's feel and who likes stuff like this? I think the problem with this album was that they were too young and didn't have a lot of experience. You can hear the wetness behind their ears through every note.
I wish people would just listen to the music itself more than speculating about it all nightmare long (:-\).
Oh noes, I'm gonna get flamed for this, aren't I? :lol
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I regularly listen to ANTR and The shattered fortress, this songs really make my day 58% better!
Oh god, so 5-8 is now Dream Theater's very own answer to life, universe and everything.
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Oh noes, I'm gonna get flamed for this, aren't I? :lol
Nope. Not by me, anyway. For what it's worth, I don't think he was going for universal truth, only for stating his own opinion. But your reply is equally valid and very thoughtful, and I certainly won't flame you for it.
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Don't forget about Raw Dog
What's the consensus on this one?
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Don't forget about Raw Dog
What's the consensus on this one?
Most pretend it was never written, including me. :lol
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Well, it's pretty heavy and dark (because it was created to suit the vibe of God of War). I prefer the light side of DT, but then again, ToT is the album that got me into these guys, so I obviously also like that side. I think it's a pretty kick-ass instrumental. It's not nearly as melodic as SOC, it rather has a HTF-kinda feel. And it gets pretty crazy towards the end, which I like as well. I think it would totally fit on ToT.
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I dislike Raw Dog, but I don't dislike it to the point of wishing it was never written like BMUBMD and You Not Me.
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I think I've only ever actually listened to Raw Dog two or three times. It's sort of easy to overlook, it not being on an album. From what I remember, it wasn't a bad song in my eyes, though it certainly wasn't anything outstanding, either. I thought it accomplished what it set out to do pretty well.
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I regularly listen to ANTR and The shattered fortress, this songs really make my day 58% better!
Oh god, so 5-8 is now Dream Theater's very own answer to life, universe and everything.
Wrong, I got the "58%" from Lemmy Kilmister's autobiography ;)
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Oh noes, I'm gonna get flamed for this, aren't I? :lol
Not at all - more than fair, absolutely spot on! Great post, and in fairness, the bit you bolded was a stupendously lazy bit of writing. The kind I'd want to dismantle myself. Will address it in due course.
Not now, though. Busy. Just passing on praise, for now - but yes, I will get back to you!
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Oh noes, I'm gonna get flamed for this, aren't I? :lol
Not at all - more than fair, absolutely spot on! Great post, and in fairness, the bit you bolded was a stupendously lazy bit of writing. The kind I'd want to dismantle myself. Will address it in due course.
Not now, though. Busy. Just passing on praise, for now - but yes, I will get back to you!
Well, for now: Thanks. :)
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I remember the days when it came out. The expectations were high since DT seemed so excited about the record. MP had already commented that this record has the I&W vibe all around and AFAIK, James, himself said something like MP in his offical forum. Of couse after having album like SC which was criticised so negative by old DT fans, many of us expected something close to old DT records.
To be honest, at first I was like "oh yeah I can get the I&W vibe too." but then it was a huge disappointment for me. I couldn't even stand AROP and TBOT after one month or like. Now I think it's probably their worst along with SC. Only worth listening Wither and TCOT. ANTR is meh, TSF is a joke with some good moments. I can live happily without the rest.
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Don't forget about Raw Dog
What's the consensus on this one?
Oh YOU... :heart
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I like Raw Dog.
BCSL is not a bad album. But it's not very good either.
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AROP is a great live rocker but the problem is why didnt JLB sing the higher harmony, it just sounds odd without a high harmony.
I just listened to Wither, for some reason I heard The Spice Girls singing it and thought it wouldnt be bad if they did sing it...now I want a group of female singers to sing this song.
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Listened to BC&SL a few days ago and still enjoyed it. It's a dcent DT album for me. There's better. I'd rather listen to it than ToT. The only song I 'm not a big fan of is ARoP, mainly for the 1st verse and the iphone solo.
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I think this is one of their best. I thought so when it was released and I still think so. Sure, it has its problems. The lyrics on TBOT and TCOT range from mediocre to terrible. But ANTR is one of their coolest songs ever, Wither is an awesome ballad and TCOT is one their very best songs and would be a Top 3 if it had better lyrics. (Why, oh WHY did he write his worst lyrics of all times on such a high standard song? I will never understand how everybody let it pass.)
I certainly would call it better than ADTOE.
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I like Raw Dog too.
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I think this is one of their best. I thought so when it was released and I still think so. Sure, it has its problems. The lyrics on TBOT and TCOT range from mediocre to terrible. But ANTR is one of their coolest songs ever, Wither is an awesome ballad and TCOT is one their very best songs and would be a Top 3 if it had better lyrics. (Why, oh WHY did he write his worst lyrics of all times on such a high standard song? I will never understand how everybody let it pass.)
I certainly would call it better than ADTOE.
I feel pretty much exactly the same about this album. Now that I've had a substantial amount of time to absorb ADToE, I would say BC&SL is better hands down. I know that's a controversial opinion on these forums, but ADToE just sounds so bland and unexciting to me. I'm not really sure why this album always gets mocked for its lyrics here when ADToE has some of the most pretentious lyrics DT has written to date.
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I think this is one of their best. I thought so when it was released and I still think so. Sure, it has its problems. The lyrics on TBOT and TCOT range from mediocre to terrible. But ANTR is one of their coolest songs ever, Wither is an awesome ballad and TCOT is one their very best songs and would be a Top 3 if it had better lyrics. (Why, oh WHY did he write his worst lyrics of all times on such a high standard song? I will never understand how everybody let it pass.)
I certainly would call it better than ADTOE.
I feel pretty much exactly the same about this album. Now that I've had a substantial amount of time to absorb ADToE, I would say BC&SL is better hands down. I know that's a controversial opinion on these forums, but ADToE just sounds so bland and unexciting to me. I'm not really sure why this album always gets mocked for its lyrics here when ADToE has some of the most pretentious lyrics DT has written to date.
Explain?
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I'm gonna give BCSL and ADTOE a listen, since it's been a while. I don't see myself liking BCSL more though.
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For the record, I'm not saying ADToE is a terrible album by any means, I just find it rather bland as I have already said. When I said that the lyrics are pretentious I was mainly referring to songs like Build Me Up, Break Me Down, Outcry and On The Backs of Angels. To me, they sound insincere and at times downright cringeworthy (Today I will be your savior, tomorrow a demon :facepalm:). I'm not sure what they were going for with Outcry and OTBoA, but the lyrics sound too forced. It's like they realized that the lyrics on BC&SL were so goofy and corny that they felt that they needed to compensate for that by writing these ultra serious lyrics that sound so emotionless and boring to me.
I don't mean to pick on just ADToE because I can find lyrics that I feel the same about on other albums like SC and 8vm, I'm just specifically talking about ADToE because it seems to be so universally loved here as if it were flawless, when BC&SL is often mocked here. I do think BC&SL deserves some of the criticism it gets and I realize it's often in good fun, but I don't understand why ADToE doesn't seem to receive any criticism for its lyrics. I do actually think some of the songs on the album have solid and passionate lyrics like Beneath The Surface and Far From Heaven in particular, so again I don't want to come off as if I am bashing every song on ADToE.
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Yeah, I've never been one to bash lyrics anyway. I really enjoy TCOT's lyrics as well as some of their best like Voices. :tup
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Normally I don't like to bash lyrics because I don't like to criticize people for something that I probably couldn't do any better, I just find it funny that ADToE's lyrics get a pass from everyone here, while BC&SL is crucified at times. I guess I am just being defensive of BC&SL because it was my first DT album :lol I know it has flaws, but it has held my interest for much longer than ADToE has.
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My problem with BCSL:
My favorite album is SDOIT, and I think all 6 songs on it are perfect, whereas 6 songs on BCSL are not.
ANTR, TCOT, TBOT, TSF are all amazing.
But Wither and AROP are just.. good to me.
Since the album has such few songs, and only 4 of them I think are amazing, that puts it pretty low in my album rankings.
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Oh I definitely agree with you there, SDOIT is a better album in every way. Even the title track has finally grown on me after being indifferent to it for so long. The first disc is practically a masterpiece, aside from TGP which is an awesome song but drags on too much in my opinion. It's not the length itself that bothers me, but I think it gets a bit tiresome and repetitive towards the end.
As for BC&SL, I think ANTR suffers from similar problems as TGP does, it drags on a bit and could have benefitted from some of the end being trimmed off in my opinion. TCoT is an unbelievably awesome song, and while the lyrics are a bit corny, James' delivery compensates for that and then some, as opposed to some of the songs on ADToE (in my opinion, of course). Wither is surprisingly one of the first DT songs that really clicked with me. I know that will be a bit surprising and odd to some people here, but I still think it's one of DT's best ballads and don't understand why it doesn't receive much praise at all here. I feel pretty much the same about TSF and TBoT, they're both good but I find it difficult to listen to them in their entirety. I think ARoP is pretty good as well. I guess in a nutshell the reason why I like BC&SL so much more than ADToE is because it's more fun and invigorating to listen to and doesn't take itself as seriously as ADToE for the most part.
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Gotcha :tup
And that's cool you're a big fan of Wither. At times, I feel like I really like it, but that doesn't last too long. Haha. Still a good song however
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I'd like Wither more if the solo wasn't directly ripped from Queen.
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I'd like Wither more if the solo wasn't directly ripped from Queen.
It's very obviously in Brian May's style, but it's not directly ripped from anything.
I swear, DTF is like the boy who cried wolf when it comes to plagiarism claims. :P
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I'd like Wither more if the solo wasn't directly ripped from Queen.
It's very obviously in Brian May's style, but it's not directly ripped from anything.
I swear, DTF is like the boy who cried wolf when it comes to plagiarism claims. :P
Go listen to the Bohemian Rhapsody solo and then Wither's and then tell me that last part isn't directly from BR.
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The last part isn't from Bohemian Rhapsody. It's just not.
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The last part isn't from Bohemian Rhapsody. It's just not.
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Is it ok to post comparison videos?
This isn't like last time with Redemption. I'M RIGHT THIS TIME!
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Comparison videos won't make us hear something that's not there.
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Fuck it. Be back in a bit, fellas.
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I'd like Wither more if the solo wasn't directly ripped from Queen.
It's very obviously in Brian May's style, but it's not directly ripped from anything.
I swear, DTF is like the boy who cried wolf when it comes to plagiarism claims. :P
Go listen to the Bohemian Rhapsody solo and then Wither's and then tell me that last part isn't directly from BR.
Oh thanks, because I've never heard of this obscure little song before.
As I said, obviously inspired by it (I wouldn't even question that), but nothing is directly ripped at all.
They both have two series of ascending melodies, with the second being slightly higher, but they're not the same notes, they're not the same progression, and they're not the same rhythm. That pretty much blows away the notion of directly ripped.
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You know what? Screw you guys. I was making a super awesome comparison video that I probably wouldn't be able to post anyway, and Movie Maker crashed. So fuck it. I'm too lazy to do it again, and I didn't save it because bosk is a turd sandwich.
Blob, you're right, they aren't entirely the same, but they're so fucking similar that i can't help but think of Bohemian Rhapsody when listening to Wither.
So I don't listen to Wither.
SO THERE!
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Translation:
I was working on my super awesome "This is the internet and I must prove I am right, damn it" video, and then, upon further review after listening some more, I realized that I am not right.
It's okay, man. We're here for ya. :hat
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Your translator is broken.
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OK.
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FINE I'LL MAKE THE VIDEO AGAIN!
JUST YOU WAIT!
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Translation:
I was working on my super awesome "This is the internet and I must prove I am right, damn it" video, and then, upon further review after listening some more, I realized that I am not right.
It's okay, man. We're here for ya. :hat
:lol
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AUTO SAVE FTW!
https://youtu.be/1TYZlpbSq0Q
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I hope you're aware that the Comic Sans font was much more insulting to me than the slob bit. :lol
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:biggrin: I'm just glad you watched to the end.
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Zook, come on, man. Don't post those stupid "disclaimers" with your videos. You're better than that.
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:rollin
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:biggrin: I'm just glad you watched to the end.
You had my full, undivided attention for all 55 seconds, chum.
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Zook, come on, man. Don't post those stupid "disclaimers" with your videos. You're better than that.
A few of my vids have already been taken down, so it's a precaution thing.
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:biggrin: I'm just glad you watched to the end.
You had my full, undivided attention for all 55 seconds, chum.
Who are you calling a chump, chimp!
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AUTO SAVE FTW!
https://youtu.be/1TYZlpbSq0Q
Zook, that was beautiful.
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Zook, come on, man. Don't post those stupid "disclaimers" with your videos. You're better than that.
A few of my vids have already been taken down, so it's a precaution thing.
Well, a "precaution" would actually keep your videos from being taken down. "I don't own this music" disclaimers will not do that. #truestory
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Zook, come on, man. Don't post those stupid "disclaimers" with your videos. You're better than that.
A few of my vids have already been taken down, so it's a precaution thing.
Well, a "precaution" would actually keep your videos from being taken down. "I don't own this music" disclaimers will not do that. #truestory
I don't think those other videos had the disclaimer, but since there's so little music used this time around opposed to full songs or over 10 minute edits, I shouldn't have a problem. Why is this a problem for you? I only put the "disclaimer" in the description and not the video itself.
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It's not a problem for me; I just thought you should know that whether you acknowledge you're committing copyright infringement in the video's description will have absolutely no bearing on whether your video is deleted.
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What happened to that fair use law crap?
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Haha...
ANTR is pretty good all around. The harsh vocal part is alright, although it'd be cool to have JLB in the background. After that comes the unnecessary instrumental bit. I always think it's gonna go back into the chorus but then forget that part is there.
AROP is alright, but not my favorite song, it rocks live and I enjoy it then, but won't really listen to it otherwise. It is better than Constant Motion though.
Wither is among their best ballads. It's a cool mix of Anna Lee, Disappear, and The Answer Lies Within, with a Queen influence.
TSF, although I enjoy it a lot and think it'd be better live, feels a bit rushed causing some transitions to be rough. The whole concept of the end song is great but it wasn't executed the best. It does remain my favorite AA Suite song though.
TBOT I love it but the intro is fucking loud. The influences he and his father shared reflected in the music is a pretty cool idea. You can feel it's memorandum feel until it gets towards the end where the lyrics seem on the spot rushed in sort of way, which explains the constant use of day. It could've been shortened there a bit letting the solo come in earlier.
TCOT, other than the lyrics and delivery of the verses, musically its good. It soars and travels nicely like going through a storm only to come out alive with the sun shining.
Overall, it still is a good album. Not my favorite but I still listen to its songs, the length of them being a con to this great album.
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What happened to that fair use law crap?
It was a myth. Posting a video on Youtube with audio to which you don't have rights isn't legal. Saying stuff like "I don't own these songs" or "no copyright infringement intended" doesn't make it legal magically, in the same way that writing "no stealing intended" on the hood of your stolen car doesn't make it legal to steal a car.
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You would probably have to clear the use of audio/video with their retrospective owners.
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Listened to BC&SL's for the first time in a year I'd say....yeah....i guess it was that long. Wow..anyway, I couldn't help but realize and notice just how much better and album ADTOE is than BC&SL. To me at least. I like TCOT and there are parts of ANTR I like...I mean it's not like I despise BC&SL......but for my money ADTOE is far superior to BC&SL.
that is all.....carry on.....
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Just bumping this because I am listening right now unintentionally and felt the need to comment. What I mean by "unintentionally" is, I was listening to The Astonishing and planned to listen to some Symphony X afterward, but BCSL is next on the play list, and although I did not plan to listen to it, I didn't immediately click over to SX, and a bit into ANTR, I decided to just let this one play. Or rather, I decided to let my abbreviated version of the album play--as with SC, I cut out the couple of songs I don't really care for, and just have an abbreviated play list for this one. I eliminated Wither and The Best of Times, and I have to say that I like the flow of the album MUCH better, although admittedly, that makes it even shorter. And given that it is now only 4 songs, it feels like an EP despite still being almost an hour long.
Anyhow, just wanted to say the following: Initially when the album came out, I think I overrated it a bit. But after that, I think it is fair to say that my assessment underrated the album significantly. ANTR is SO close to being a flawless song. AROP is pretty good, and often overlooked. TSF is outstanding, even if flawed. And now that we have Illumination Theory doubling down on the structure of "mellow section in the middle of a long epic that emotionally takes you out of the flow of the song," I have gotten used to it and am not bothered nearly as much as I used to be. This album still does not compare to some of the band's best. But that said, it is outstanding and there is definitely a lot to like.
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Just bumping this because I am listening right now unintentionally and felt the need to comment. What I mean by "unintentionally" is, I was listening to The Astonishing and planned to listen to some Symphony X afterward, but BCSL is next on the play list, and although I did not plan to listen to it, I didn't immediately click over to SX, and a bit into ANTR, I decided to just let this one play. Or rather, I decided to let my abbreviated version of the album play--as with SC, I cut out the couple of songs I don't really care for, and just have an abbreviated play list for this one. I eliminated Wither and The Best of Times, and I have to say that I like the flow of the album MUCH better, although admittedly, that makes it even shorter. And given that it is now only 4 songs, it feels like an EP despite still being almost an hour long.
Anyhow, just wanted to say the following: Initially when the album came out, I think I overrated it a bit. But after that, I think it is fair to say that my assessment underrated the album significantly. ANTR is SO close to being a flawless song. AROP is pretty good, and often overlooked. TSF is outstanding, even if flawed. And now that we have Illumination Theory doubling down on the structure of "mellow section in the middle of a long epic that emotionally takes you out of the flow of the song," I have gotten used to it and am not bothered nearly as much as I used to be. This album still does not compare to some of the band's best. But that said, it is outstanding and there is definitely a lot to like.
What's wrong with Wither / The Best of Times? I really like those.
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What's wrong with Wither / The Best of Times? I really like those.
Was wondering the same thing. TSF would be the first thing cut IMO.
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Album is great as is, IMO of course.
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I love Wither. Best of Times is close to the bottom of my DT rankings. But I would never cut any songs from any of their albums.
Black Clouds is not my favorite album, but it's solid throughout. Count of Tuscany is right up there with the best songs they ever wrote.
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What's wrong with Wither / The Best of Times? I really like those.
Nothing is "wrong" with them. But as I have posted many times, I just don't care for either one of them and lost interest when I listen to them. I am generally more of a "rockers" than "ballads" guy, especially when it comes to DT. And DT has so many "ballads" that I like better than Wither. I just don't find it interesting. And TBOT similarly doesn't strike a chord with me either. The subject matter as a whole is really cool, and I identify with other songs touching on similar things (e.g. ACOS and Take Away My Pain, which are among my favorite DT songs). But I just don't connect with this song, partly because the music itself does not move me, and partly because the things MP mentions are so specific to him that it is hard for me to identify. If you like them, great. But for me, this is one of the very few instances of a DT album where there is a big enough chunk of material on the album that I don't care for, that the album as a whole impacts me a lot harder if I remove those songs.
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New car smell was strong with this one at that time (same year of release).
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• Initially I was a bit crestfallen at there only being 6 tracks on it.
• I loved it straight away and played the two songs that leaked over and over.
• I used to play the whole album on the stereo whilst lying on the sofa in the dark. :corn
• Nowadays I think Nightmare is way too long and that The Count of Tuscany is not as good as Octavarium but way better than Illumination Theory.
• I got the three disc version which had that super-shitty thin digipack.
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What's wrong with Wither / The Best of Times? I really like those.
Nothing is "wrong" with them. But as I have posted many times, I just don't care for either one of them and lost interest when I listen to them. I am generally more of a "rockers" than "ballads" guy, especially when it comes to DT. And DT has so many "ballads" that I like better than Wither. I just don't find it interesting. And TBOT similarly doesn't strike a chord with me either. The subject matter as a whole is really cool, and I identify with other songs touching on similar things (e.g. ACOS and Take Away My Pain, which are among my favorite DT songs). But I just don't connect with this song, partly because the music itself does not move me, and partly because the things MP mentions are so specific to him that it is hard for me to identify. If you like them, great. But for me, this is one of the very few instances of a DT album where there is a big enough chunk of material on the album that I don't care for, that the album as a whole impacts me a lot harder if I remove those songs.
Fair enough, that sounds reasonable. I just wouldn't remove tracks from albums.
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Yeah, I usually don't either. But SC and BCSL were both cases where I liked a lot about those albums, but found myself not wanting to listen to them very often, and just removing the tracks I don't care for made me want to listen to them a LOT more. I haven't done that with any other albums.
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Recently I listened to The Dark Eternal Night after a long break and it was like hearing it fir the first time. :metal
Colossal track.
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Didn't care for this one much at first. It grew on me a bit after seeing some of the songs live.
Almost 7 Years later and it hasn't aged that well. It's a lower-tier album for me. Not the worst, certainly not the best, it just exists. Nightmare and TCOT are still great songs(When you look past the lyrics) but I rarely ever listen to the rest of the album. Hell, I don't think I've heard Rite of Passage in 4 years.
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Not caring for TBoT I can understand. Wither on the other hand, don't get it. One of DT's best power ballads.
Anywho, I really don't listen to SC or BC&SL very often anymore. But, when I go back to revisit those albums, oh man...what a treat! Those were good times and marked the end of a fantastic era.
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I didn't care much for "A Rite Of Passage" and "Wither" either, but the rest of it was really cool to me at the time. Currently, I still love "A Nightmare To Remember" (which I have a lot of fun playing on guitar) and the intro to "The Count Of Tuscany", of course.
Plus, when I bought it and listened to it for the first time (exactly 10 days after release date), I felt happy with the overall sound/mix. I didn't like Systematic Chaos too much in that regard. This one, however, has my favourite sound on a DT album (especially the guitars, which do sound like chocolate cake to me).
Yeah, I usually don't either. But SC and BCSL were both cases where I liked a lot about those albums, but found myself not wanting to listen to them very often, and just removing the tracks I don't care for made me want to listen to them a LOT more. I haven't done that with any other albums.
Bosk, if I may ask: what tracks do you skip from Systematic Chaos? I might skip a few, too. But, recently, I've found myself liking the formerly 'weaker' tracks ("Prophets Of War", "Constant Motion", "Repentance"). "TMOLS", however, is one I need to skip less.
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Bosk, if I may ask: what tracks do you skip from Systematic Chaos? I might skip a few, too. But, recently, I've found myself liking the formerly 'weaker' tracks ("Prophets Of War", "Constant Motion", "Repentance"). "TMOLS", however, is one I need to skip less.
It is posted many times over on the forum, but: I don't like Prophets or TMOLS at all. And Repentance is sometimes a skip as well, although I think there are a lot of things to like about that song. But the rest of the album is solid. Heck, if you take away the weaker tracks on Images & Words and stack the top 5 tracks against the 5 keepers from SC, I would say it is about dead even.
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This album is so good, and then bad. It is a sign of what the band was going through, so that is why I put it low. But it is much much better than my least favorite (SC). I was bumping Wither the other day, and it is a such a solid song. The video for it is cool.
I like a significant portion of all the songs as well, if not the whole song entirely. But there is enough WTF moments to drop the album.
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I love this album. I always find myself drawn to the meatier songs of DT and this album consists almost entirely of them.
Totally agree with Bosk's comment about ANTR being a near-flawless song. TCOT, for me is one of the very best songs the band has ever made - I would place it at #2 or 3.
The only thing I really don't like is how the bass is almost totally inaudible in the mix. And MP's delivery on some of his backing vocals sounds rather silly - "JUSTICE! COURTESY! KINDNESS!" etc. but those are pretty minor gripes, all things considered.
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The only thing I really don't like is how the bass is almost totally inaudible in the mix. And MP's delivery on some of his backing vocals sounds rather silly - "JUSTICE! COURTESY! KINDNESS!" etc. but those are pretty minor gripes, all things considered.
Yeah. I've never cared too much for lyrics anyway, so the MP vocals never bothered. But, the bass is not only inaudible, but it's almost always doubling the guitars, and there's very few places where it gets to shine a bit (the intro to "AROP", and not much more). Unfortunately.
On another note: what does everyone think of the artwork/booklet? I know there has been a lot of discussion about some laziness with regards to a few details, like the shadow-less mouse in the cover. A few other 'nuggets' I've discovered over the years:
- The books in the cover were recycled in the self-titled (in the "The Looking Glass" page). Plus, both artworks have elephants standing on top of the books, so that has to have been intentional, right?
- The circles in the "A Rite Of Passage" pages were recycled in ADTOE (in the "Bridges In The Sky" pages. You can tell by the horizontal line in the middle of the right circle, and the 'mole' underneath the line).
- The bird in the "The Best Of Times" page is recycled from Octavarium (from the "The Answer Lies Within" page).
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MUTHA FUCKON KINDNESS :metal
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My top album after SFAM. ANTR is one of my favorite DT songs, and CoT is second only to Change of Seasons in my opinion. The only song I don't really care for much on the album is Best of Times.
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Best of Times has that amazing 3 minute solo.
A Nightmare to Remember is FAR too long and has that stupid tough vocal section. The beautiful Agony section does not make up for it in my opinion.
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Lousiest album ever :loser:
Nightmare is kind of fine except for MPs vocals, just heavy
Rite of passage is the mandatory single "hey, we like metallica, remember?"
Wither is a nice power ballady thing
TSF is the most lousiest of them all, they didn't even put any effort "let's just make a medley"
Best of times love that one for the meaning, makes me cry
Count of tuscany is the other lousiest of them all (also) they got the formula they just had to fill in the sections, ambient intro, build up, build up, "epic" instrumental, final conclusion that was supposed to be the hugest thing ever, still Labrie couldn't get it at any moment his voice was plain and without any inflection or emotion.
still this one is on top of DT12.
:flame:
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Opinions are like assholes...
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Opinions are like assholes...
Stinky?
no.. Wait.
Brown?
waiiiiit.
Wrinkly!
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Rite of passage is the mandatory single "hey, we like metallica, remember?"
:laugh:
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Ghastly record. Only ever spin TCOT. Joint worst album with Wdadu for me. Don't get the love for Wither either. A ballad about it being tough to write lyrics?! The artwork is nice, though.
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Opinions are like assholes...
Stinky?
no.. Wait.
Brown?
waiiiiit.
Wrinkly!
Only if you are old, then yes, wrinkly
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I've listened to a lot of DT in 2016 so far, since I always go through a major DT listening phase after a new album drops, and if I had to guess, BC&SL is easily the album I revisit the least now. Maybe it's because four of the six songs are so long, but I just don't go for this CD much at all anymore.
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A common complaint among non-DT fans about DT is that many of their songs are bloated and indulgent. I don't often agree with that assessment, but BC&SL is surely the exception. This is the one album that would have benefitted most from some editing of the songs. With the exception of Wither, which is perfect (for what it is), all of the other songs would benefit from some strategic cuts, which would make the album as a whole much better.
As it is, this sits with WDADU at the bottom of the rankings for me, and neither is played very often.
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With the exception of Wither, which is perfect (for what it is), all of the other songs would benefit from some strategic cuts, which would make the album as a whole much better.
totally agree with this. If ANTR was about 5 minutes shorter it'd be an awesome song. Instead, for me....it's an alright song with a couple really cool sections.
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This album is DT at it's best. Has been my favourite album since I started properly listening to them in 09.
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With the exception of Wither, which is perfect (for what it is), all of the other songs would benefit from some strategic cuts, which would make the album as a whole much better.
totally agree with this. If ANTR was about 5 minutes shorter it'd be an awesome song. Instead, for me....it's an alright song with a couple really cool sections.
No question, except for me ANTR isn't even alright. I just don't ever listen to it.
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With the exception of Wither, which is perfect (for what it is), all of the other songs would benefit from some strategic cuts, which would make the album as a whole much better.
totally agree with this. If ANTR was about 5 minutes shorter it'd be an awesome song. Instead, for me....it's an alright song with a couple really cool sections.
No question, except for me ANTR isn't even alright. I just don't ever listen to it.
There are some sections of ANTR that the song could do without (most notably, MPs gruff vocals), but the hopelessly drifting section ranks as one of my favorite DT moments ever.
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With the exception of Wither, which is perfect (for what it is), all of the other songs would benefit from some strategic cuts, which would make the album as a whole much better.
totally agree with this. If ANTR was about 5 minutes shorter it'd be an awesome song. Instead, for me....it's an alright song with a couple really cool sections.
No question, except for me ANTR isn't even alright. I just don't ever listen to it.
There are some sections of ANTR that the song could do without (most notably, MPs gruff vocals), but the hopelessly drifting section ranks as one of my favorite DT moments ever.
YES, that section is orgasm worthy
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I love ANTR through that section, everything afterwards is pretty meh for me.
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1. The Count of Tuscany
2. The Shattered Fortress
3. Wither
4. The Best Of Times
5. A Rite Of Passage
6. A Nightmare To Remember
imo :hat
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Incorrect. But that's okay.
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The first half of A Nightmare to Remember is pretty awesome. Not just the hopelessly drifting section, but the first two verses and choruses. It's just too bad that the second half of the song isn't nearly as good. It's not bad by any means, but just doesn't live up to the first half.
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The first half of A Nightmare to Remember is pretty awesome. Not just the hopelessly drifting section, but the first two verses and choruses. It's just too bad that the second half of the song isn't nearly as good. It's not bad by any means, but just doesn't live up to the first half.
Spot on Kev. Speaking to the choir, I never thought of the song in a two halves way. But it totally makes sense. The second half has everything I dislike about the song- MP lead vocals, and can-has-blast beats in the middle of the drawn out intro reprise. I don't mind the instrumental section, but I could live without it. The heavy riff reprise is cool however, and the riff post MP lead is neat.
I also agree in that I'm not even sure the sections I noted are the worst in DT's catalog. But with what they signify, they are easily the most glaring terds IMO. Which is makes this song so messed up, because it has an awesome build, with Beautiful Agony still being potentially a top 5 DT moment. If not that, easily the best vocal harmonies and top 3 vocal melody at this point IMO. But that heavy riff and "without warning" section are also stellar.
Blob's opinion of Scarred = a platypus is not that far off for my view on this song.
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Not my favorite, but I gave it a lot of spins when it came out.
I'll go back and listen to TCOT and Wither.
SIde note - the video for Wither is the 3rd most viewed DT Video on youtube. That kind of surprised me (Not as much as Forsaken being #1)
#5, just behind Another Day is the cover of Pull Me Under by Aaorn O'Keefe's students. The 11-year old Kala Scarpinski slays the vocals.
OK - Tangent over.
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(continued from DOT thread)
A lot of the reason why I rank BC&SL so highly is because I absolutely love the production. Everything sounds so clear & high-quality, & I don't think there's a single moment where it felt like two instruments were clashing or fighting for space.
On top of that though, I also adore the songs from a structural standpoint. They do a great job of containing enough variety so that it feels like every song is its own little adventure. You could call every track (except Wither & TBOT) a metal song, but they all have moments that make me really emotional. That's one of my favourite things about DT music & BC&SL nails it.
So yeah, that's why it's my 2nd favourite DT album behind I&W. :metal
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(continued from DOT thread)
A lot of the reason why I rank BC&SL so highly is because I absolutely love the production. Everything sounds so clear & high-quality, & I don't think there's a single moment where it felt like two instruments were clashing or fighting for space.
On top of that though, I also adore the songs from a structural standpoint. They do a great job of containing enough variety so that it feels like every song is its own little adventure. You could call every track (except Wither & TBOT) a metal song, but they all have moments that make me really emotional. That's one of my favourite things about DT music & BC&SL nails it.
So yeah, that's why it's my 2nd favourite DT album behind I&W. :metal
No disrespect at all, but to me this is one of the worst sounding albums they did. I hate the darker sound quality beyond words. I also don't like Wither at all. The rest of the songs are cool though. With it being MP's last album, the overall "darkness" that was probably in the studio/between the band members is probably reflected in the songs, just a humble guess on my part, but that's what it feels like to me.
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This is DTs “S*** Sandwich”.
Two really great epics, sandwiching some of the most boring copy/paste “DT by the numbers” I’ve ever heard.
Only SC is worse.
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So many positive comments in the first pages of this thread. New album hysteria? I get the impression that even on these boards the album is not much loved but if you read the first pages it's like it was the best album since Scenes :D
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So many positive comments in the first pages of this thread. New album hysteria? I get the impression that even on these boards the album is not much loved but if you read the first pages it's like it was the best album since Scenes :D
In particular I am shocked by the amount of love for ANTR....
That song would probably rank very low for most of the initial fans...:)
After many years, I confess I don't like it.
The only sectionsvI really love are "beautiful agony", TBOT solo and TCOT outro.
All the rest ranks at the bottom of all my rankings...
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Only SC is worse.
I am of the same mind.
There was no new album hysteria syndrome for me. I disliked it from the go, cementing my opinion of the post-Six Degrees or at least post-Tot/pre-ADTOE era as DT's low point.
As soon as we were treated to those awfully processed promo images of band doing their worst (or best) Machine Head impersonation, I kind of knew what was brewing.
Fun fact: This album features my all time least favorite JR sound: the godawful screech during solo on Rite of Passage.
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I liked the cover songs they did more than the original compositions.
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So many positive comments in the first pages of this thread. New album hysteria? I get the impression that even on these boards the album is not much loved but if you read the first pages it's like it was the best album since Scenes :D
Some albums do not age well. I still like this record, but I don't love it, and I rarely listen to anything from it anymore.
Regarding immediate reaction at the time, I have been on these forums (dt.net and then this one) since 2000 :omg: :omg: and Train of Thought is really the only album of theirs I remember getting heavily criticized on release day and the weeks after. Every other album has gotten a pretty positive reaction, but like I said above, some albums age better than others, which is why some of the albums that were liked a lot right away are not as well-liked now.
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Looking back on this "era" of DT (I'm considering SC and BC&SL) I remember thinking that both albums were instantly amazing. Though over time my love for those albums continues to erode. They have definitely not aged well and I consider them to be at the bottom of the DT albums (SC is at the very bottom for me). There are some great songs (ItPoE and Count of Tuscany (even with the terrible lyrics) are both solid) but compared to their other output they're just not that great. Hindsight being 20/20 MP leaving was the best thing for the band and MP (assuming MP was the primary driver for the direction of those two albums).
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Funny thing about this album, the other day I tried a different song-ranking method and BCSL finished much higher than I usually rank it. That’s because with only 6 songs there aren’t a lot of weak ones to drag down the overall score. AROP is the only one I think of as below average because the others all have something great about them that I like.
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There's great monents throughout, but overall this album is a bit of a disappointment. It stays in my bottom 3 DT albums. However, I really enjoy SC and, imo, it's miles better than this one.
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There's great monents throughout, but overall this album is a bit of a disappointment. It stays in my bottom 3 DT albums. However, I really enjoy SC and, imo, it's miles better than this one.
I agree fully. I'll take SC over this one any time. I'm sure we're in the minority though! :D
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There's great monents throughout, but overall this album is a bit of a disappointment. It stays in my bottom 3 DT albums. However, I really enjoy SC and, imo, it's miles better than this one.
I agree fully. I'll take SC over this one any time. I'm sure we're in the minority though! :D
I even like SC more than Octavarium :biggrin:
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There's great monents throughout, but overall this album is a bit of a disappointment. It stays in my bottom 3 DT albums. However, I really enjoy SC and, imo, it's miles better than this one.
I agree fully. I'll take SC over this one any time. I'm sure we're in the minority though! :D
I also prefer SC. If I try and match the albums up against each other, I look at it like this: Both have 2 top tier songs that I really love - an epic in ITPOE/TCOT, which are fairly evenly matched and a 'mini-epic' in TMOLS/ANTR, where I slightly prefer the former. Then there's the 'single' - I like Constant Motion way more than AROP. The 'ballad' - I prefer Forsaken to Wither. They both also have one longer song that I don't really like - Repentance and TBOT. Then there's The Dark Eternal Night and The Shattered Fortress which are pretty even. Plus of course SC also has Prophets of War which I actually think is OK.
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There's great monents throughout, but overall this album is a bit of a disappointment. It stays in my bottom 3 DT albums. However, I really enjoy SC and, imo, it's miles better than this one.
I agree fully. I'll take SC over this one any time. I'm sure we're in the minority though! :D
I also prefer SC. If I try and match the albums up against each other, I look at it like this: Both have 2 top tier songs that I really love - an epic in ITPOE/TCOT, which are fairly evenly matched and a 'mini-epic' in TMOLS/ANTR, where I slightly prefer the former. Then there's the 'single' - I like Constant Motion way more than AROP. The 'ballad' - I prefer Forsaken to Wither. They both also have one longer song that I don't really like - Repentance and TBOT. Then there's The Dark Eternal Night and The Shattered Fortress which are pretty even. Plus of course SC also has Prophets of War which I actually think is OK.
Completely agree with this.
SC, to me, has better balance between heavy and melodic, and the tracks have more diversity than the ones on BC&SL.
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I loved Black Clouds when it came out and I still do. I was 16 when it was released and Dream Theater had opened a whole new musical world for me. I discovered all the old and "new" masters of prog, but DT was (and is) still my favorite band. I seriously couldn't wait to get my hands on this album. I even purchased the deluxe box set and accepted the absurd shipping costs from the States. That was a lot of money, especially for a 16yo.
I got to know the band around 2006 and Systematic Chaos was the first album released while I already knew and loved them, but Black Clouds was the first album of theirs where I - how do I put this right - actively participated in the pre-release madness. So this album was and is very special to me.
Plus, it's just awesome. The opener is their heaviest song ever and I absolutely love its raw energy, structure and the mellow middle part. TCOT is a masterpiece, no one ever dare to deny that. The Best Of Times, yes it's cheesy and personal and all... but it's also touching and beautiful. The guy lost his dad, let him be personal ffs. Also, JPs solo at the end yowsa! The Shattered Fortress is an awesome closer for an epic epic. It was also stunning to see the whole thing performed live by MP's Shattered Fortress. The Rite Of Passage is not exactly a masterpiece, but I think the chorus is a lot stronger than Constant Motion's. Wither is just beautiful. That orchestral bridge (drown in hesitation) and the guitar solo? Fantastic.
The album has some weird experiments, like MPs "growls", yes. But they are one last wink of MPs weirdness before he "left". It's MP's legacy.
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Black Clouds remains my favorite album. It was my introduction to Dream Theater and without it I wouldn't be here. I can't think of a single song on it that I skip ever and don't seek out. Heck, I made my girlfriend listen to it and I couldn't stop grinning like a fool.
The Count of Tuscany is beautiful and my favorite epic.
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It's a great album, that's all there is to say. It's practically perfect. A Nightmare to Remember is still one of the best DT songs, and DT album openers of all time.
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I loved Black Clouds when it came out and I still do. I was 16 when it was released and Dream Theater had opened a whole new musical world for me.
Not sure why, but when I read your post, I couldn't help but think back to the "Choose Your Own Nightmare II" thread. I had SO MANY references to BCSL in that, since it was the newest album. Too bad we never got to finish that story. It started out pretty epic.
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I liked the cover songs they did more than the original compositions.
Yup!
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SC, to me, has better balance between heavy and melodic, and the tracks have more diversity than the ones on BC&SL.
I stand by what I have said for a while now: the songwriting on BC&SL was better than it was on SC, but it has no personality, while SC at least has that kind of "cheesy horror flick" vibe at times which you won't find on any other Dream Theater record.
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I loved Black Clouds when it came out and I still do. I was 16 when it was released and Dream Theater had opened a whole new musical world for me.
Not sure why, but when I read your post, I couldn't help but think back to the "Choose Your Own Nightmare II" thread. I had SO MANY references to BCSL in that, since it was the newest album. Too bad we never got to finish that story. It started out pretty epic.
I was very active in the German DT Forum back then, but I wasn't in DTF yet - can you explain? :)
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Does anybody know why they swapped Wither and The Shattered Fortress on the vinyl release? On their website, on iTunes and cd versions there is Wither at 3#, followed by #4 The Shattered Fortress.
On my vinyl it's the other way around.
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Probably so they wouldn't degrade audio quality by overloading a single side of vinyl. Shattered Fortress and The Best of Times together would've made up around 26 minutes which is really pushing the limits of vinyl. Instead you get Side 2 closer to 20-21 minutes (more standard) and Side 3 closer to 18 or 19 minutes.
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Probably so they wouldn't degrade audio quality by overloading a single side of vinyl. Shattered Fortress and The Best of Times together would've made up around 26 minutes which is really pushing the limits of vinyl. Instead you get Side 2 closer to 20-21 minutes (more standard) and Side 3 closer to 18 or 19 minutes.
I see, that sound very logic, thanks!
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Since someone resurrected this thread this year while the last post was from 2019, I’m grabbing this thread to comment on The Shattered Fortress.
Since hearing the news of MP’s return I’ve revisiting the discography and this is a track that I did enjoy when BC&SL came out, but I kind of forgot about. It’s an ending finale and reprises all those riffs and melodies from the earlier Twelve Step songs but holy smokes it really kicks so much more ass than I remember. I love how they tie everything together and JLB’s vocals are absolutely great here. I swear in moments he almost sounds like he did on Awake.
I’ve always undervalued this one, seeing it as an ‘easy’ way to wrap up the suite since it doesn’t feature a lot of new composition, but now years later it’s such a joy to hear all those iconic riffs and themes from earlier 12SS tracks come together in an epic finale.
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I'm relistening to ANTR just because it's been years. It's really good but I am only 7.5 minutes in. I am fearing the MP "growls" coming up
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Ironically, I listened to this today as well. I have never cared for The Shattered Fortress. I thought it was a huge let down. I love the "I am responsible" part at the end.
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Aww man, I love TSF. I can see why people wouldn't like it though.
I am not listening to the whole album, but I also decided to listen to The Best of Times. I am liking it more than I remember, but I still wouldn't want to come back to it often at all. The end guitar solo is about to come on and I about to come on.
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I thought The Shattered Fortress was great live.
The Best Of Times is one of my favorite DT songs.
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Oh wow, that's cool, I never thought highly of it besides the solo, but I am appreciating it more now.
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Oh wow, that's cool, I never thought highly of it besides the solo, but I am appreciating it more now.
I think the intro is beautiful. I find the song very touching.
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I like The Shattered Fortress, but the "Take all of me" TROAE reprise takes the reprises a bit too far for me because it just sounds jarring and interrupts the flow of the song for me (although the lyrics for that part fit perfectly for what the 12 steps require), as does the Repentence reprise. But that said, I still really enjoy it, and it was fantastic live on the DT12 tour.
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It's wicked jarring.
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Oh wow, that's cool, I never thought highly of it besides the solo, but I am appreciating it more now.
I think the intro is beautiful. I find the song very touching.
I agree, now. Still isn't climbing my rankings much, but I appreciate it more.
TROAE in TSF is jarring, I can't aruge that. But it has a cool atmosphere. Maybe it needed something to lead into that part.
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I really liked TSF live and in context of the entire suite, but on the album it kinda breaks the flow for me. Some of the callbacks are definitely a little jarring out of context and makes the whole thing feel disconnected from the rest of the album.
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Curious personal fact about listening to this album:
Before the album came out I had a small accident that led to complications and I almost died. I stayed in the hospital for a long time. When BCSL came out I listened to it a lot doing physiotherapy to try to walk again. I just remember thinking WTF!? (I think for the album and for the situation I was in :biggrin:).
This album always reminds me of physical therapy exercises. :lol
I consider DT's worst album.
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I consider DT's worst album.
I think I agree. I have always held WDADU as their worst, with BC&SL just above. But I am on the verge of flip-flopping them.
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Ironically, I listened to this today as well. I have never cared for The Shattered Fortress. I thought it was a huge let down. I love the "I am responsible" part at the end.
I don't care for this song as a whole but I do agree with you about that part.
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I agree with ppl here that in The Shattered Fortress, the reprise of The Root of All Evil “Take all of me..” is incredibly jarring. The JP solo over the TROAE riff is amazing though and indeed the ‘I am responsible’ part wraps it all up nicely.
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This may have been mentioned earlier in the thread but I always hated how The Shattered Fortress ends with the same drum/bass riff that The Glass Prison starts with. If the whole suite is about Mike's journey and growth from alcoholism to sobriety, why the fuck would the suite end as it began? It makes sense for a song like Octavarium where the entire concept is moving in a circle but it just feels stupid and ill-thought-out for the 12 Step Suite. Am I missing something here?
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The whole 12SS gets let down by the last two songs. I actually enjoy TSF, but it it feels pretty anti climatic when it's up against the first three parts.
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Oh wow, that's cool, I never thought highly of it besides the solo, but I am appreciating it more now.
I think the intro is beautiful. I find the song very touching.
I do too. I don't really get the hate for that song, honestly. Other than maybe one line, I think the lyrics are thoughtful and well done. The solo is amazing, as is the sort of "jam" at the end.
Honestly, the only thing I don't like about BC&SL is the sort of cliched growled one word technique ("FREEDOM!", "SERENITY!") in Shattered Fortress. I hate that technique.
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For me, the Shattered Fortress is the perfect ending to a beautifully vulnerable suite, in which Portnoy leaves virtually nothing of his self-esteem intact. Without a doubt, lyrically the 'receive part' is the most beautiful of the entire suite. Portnoy has overcome his pain and addiction and considers himself blessed. From that perception, it makes sense to share, after so much has been given to you. I find the prayer that follows very emotional and - as a Christian - I fully recognize myself in it. To say, I recognize the desire to fulfill the prayer, but also the feeling of lacking what I should. The most beautiful part of the lyrics in the entire discography.
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Lost my long answer, I'm so pissed lol
I disliked this album, same as systematic chaos.
-Nightmare : Not as ballsy as the glass prison and without the beautiful agony part the song would have had way less impact.
-A rite of passage : forgettable
-TSF : Nice collection of riffs, especially when the end meets the glass prison backwards. But song sounds like an angry compilation of previous ones.
-Wither : Vomited and never heard again.
-Tuscany : I like part1 which is progAF. Part2 is strangely paced and sounds like an outro but isn't one...
So after 2 albums I disliked, I was happy to discover ADTOE and so on !
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This may have been mentioned earlier in the thread but I always hated how The Shattered Fortress ends with the same drum/bass riff that The Glass Prison starts with. If the whole suite is about Mike's journey and growth from alcoholism to sobriety, why the fuck would the suite end as it began? It makes sense for a song like Octavarium where the entire concept is moving in a circle but it just feels stupid and ill-thought-out for the 12 Step Suite. Am I missing something here?
Well, I am kind of pissed that I never thought about this before.
You are right.
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Nah, it's just concluding it. You could also argue that ends almost the same way (barring the static), that chord that strikes could signify that he is going back into the static a changed man through the 12 steps.
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Nah, it's just concluding it. You could also argue that ends almost the same way (barring the static), that chord that strikes could signify that he is going back into the static a changed man through the 12 steps.
In what way?
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Nah, it's just concluding it. You could also argue that ends almost the same way (barring the static), that chord that strikes could signify that he is going back into the static a changed man through the 12 steps.
In what way?
Not sure to which part you are referring.
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This may have been mentioned earlier in the thread but I always hated how The Shattered Fortress ends with the same drum/bass riff that The Glass Prison starts with. If the whole suite is about Mike's journey and growth from alcoholism to sobriety, why the fuck would the suite end as it began?
I think it makes sense. The riff almost lingers at the end and for alcoholics they've never fully recovered. The urge is always there. There will always be a reminder that that one sip is waiting for you and to think of your full journey as you decide if it'll be that big of a deal to just fall off the wagon for a minute or hour or twenty years.
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Nah, it's just concluding it. You could also argue that ends almost the same way (barring the static), that chord that strikes could signify that he is going back into the static a changed man through the 12 steps.
I think it makes sense. The riff almost lingers at the end and for alcoholics they've never fully recovered. The urge is always there. There will always be a reminder that that one sip is waiting for you and to think of your full journey as you decide if it'll be that big of a deal to just fall off the wagon for a minute or hour or twenty years.
I agree with these. However, I also think it could symbolize someone else's fall into alcoholism. With the last movement being about taking on the responsibility of helping others just as others have helped you through AA, I think that it is being depicted as a cycle in that sort of way. You've struggled through it, came out on top having changed for the better, and now you're prepared to help anyone who's going through the same thing. And I think the chord at the very end shows that things will be different for you, that even though the threat still exists, you won't fall back into temptation so easily.
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Nah, it's just concluding it. You could also argue that ends almost the same way (barring the static), that chord that strikes could signify that he is going back into the static a changed man through the 12 steps.
In what way?
Not sure to which part you are referring.
Your entire proposal
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Nah, it's just concluding it. You could also argue that ends almost the same way (barring the static), that chord that strikes could signify that he is going back into the static a changed man through the 12 steps.
In what way?
Not sure to which part you are referring.
Your entire proposal
I'm not sure what you are not understanding, dad.
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Nah, it's just concluding it. You could also argue that ends almost the same way (barring the static), that chord that strikes could signify that he is going back into the static a changed man through the 12 steps.
I think it makes sense. The riff almost lingers at the end and for alcoholics they've never fully recovered. The urge is always there. There will always be a reminder that that one sip is waiting for you and to think of your full journey as you decide if it'll be that big of a deal to just fall off the wagon for a minute or hour or twenty years.
I agree with these. However, I also think it could symbolize someone else's fall into alcoholism. With the last movement being about taking on the responsibility of helping others just as others have helped you through AA, I think that it is being depicted as a cycle in that sort of way. You've struggled through it, came out on top having changed for the better, and now you're prepared to help anyone who's going through the same thing. And I think the chord at the very end shows that things will be different for you, that even though the threat still exists, you won't fall back into temptation so easily.
I like that take too!
It's funny. I always hated this song but their performance on the Along for the Ride tour changed my mind. I way prefer that to the album version though and I still don't love the song.
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Nah, it's just concluding it. You could also argue that ends almost the same way (barring the static), that chord that strikes could signify that he is going back into the static a changed man through the 12 steps.
I think it makes sense. The riff almost lingers at the end and for alcoholics they've never fully recovered. The urge is always there. There will always be a reminder that that one sip is waiting for you and to think of your full journey as you decide if it'll be that big of a deal to just fall off the wagon for a minute or hour or twenty years.
I agree with these. However, I also think it could symbolize someone else's fall into alcoholism. With the last movement being about taking on the responsibility of helping others just as others have helped you through AA, I think that it is being depicted as a cycle in that sort of way. You've struggled through it, came out on top having changed for the better, and now you're prepared to help anyone who's going through the same thing. And I think the chord at the very end shows that things will be different for you, that even though the threat still exists, you won't fall back into temptation so easily.
I like that take too!
It's funny. I always hated this song but their performance on the Along for the Ride tour changed my mind. I way prefer that to the album version though and I still don't love the song.
Do you have a version you're fond of you can share? (if it's allowed)
I missed it on my massive DT break.
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James, just hit the Breaking The Fourth Wall version.
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James, just hit the Breaking The Fourth Wall version.
I just watched it, holy shit that was better than the album version!
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James, just hit the Breaking The Fourth Wall version.
I just watched it, holy shit that was better than the album version!
Haha, I'm guessing that's why he told you to check it!
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James, just hit the Breaking The Fourth Wall version.
I just watched it, holy shit that was better than the album version!
In what way?
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Mangini is killing it in that song. So energetic. They crush every song on that DVD, I can’t get enough of it.
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Mangini is killing it in that song. So energetic. They crush every song on that DVD, I can’t get enough of it.
Yeah and some people say he has no feel. I can tell you when I say that live, I sure as hell felt it!
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Black Clouds is their most underrated album in my opinion. It’s listenable from front to back and contains one of the better ballads they’ve ever done.
Regarding The Shattered Fortress- the song plays MUCH better live as a sort of 12 Step Medley. Live it feels like an epic in it’s own right and I remember that it got a HUGE crowd pop at the end when they played it on the Along for the Ride Tour 2014.
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James, just hit the Breaking The Fourth Wall version.
A truly epic performance and DVD! :hefdaddy
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James, just hit the Breaking The Fourth Wall version.
A truly epic performance and DVD! :hefdaddy
I found the whole DVD on youtube. That is a really good setlist. And On the Backs of Angels is on here and sounds incredible.
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Fun question... on Thanksgiving of 2008 (https://web.archive.org/web/20090523003820/http://www.mikeportnoy.com/forum/tm.aspx?m=2190508&mpage=1&key=�), MP apparently described BC&SL as "a Dream Theater album with 'A Change of Seasons', 'Octavarium', 'Learning to Live', 'Pull Me Under' and 'The Glass Prison' all on one album" in a post on his forum before the album released. The question is... which song would MP feel is which? Obviously Wither is left out since it doesn't match any of the songs he listed and he only listed 5 songs. Also, I think we can pretty reasonably assume that The Shattered Fortress corresponds to The Glass Prison (both 12SS songs) and Pull Me Under corresponds to Rite of Passage (both catchy singles).
This leaves A Change of Seasons, Octavarium, and Learning to Live to match with Nightmare to Remember, The Best of Times, and The Count of Tuscany. This is where things get funky. I want to say that A Change of Seasons matches up with The Best of Times due to a similar subject matter (death of MP parent) but the songs are so stylistically different otherwise. That would leave Learning to Live = A Nightmare to Remember and 8VM = Count of Tuscany in my opinion.
What does everyone else think?
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Fun question... on Thanksgiving of 2008 (https://web.archive.org/web/20090523003820/http://www.mikeportnoy.com/forum/tm.aspx?m=2190508&mpage=1&key=�), MP apparently described BC&SL as "a Dream Theater album with 'A Change of Seasons', 'Octavarium', 'Learning to Live', 'Pull Me Under' and 'The Glass Prison' all on one album" in a post on his forum before the album released. The question is... which song would MP feel is which? Obviously Wither is left out since it doesn't match any of the songs he listedand he only listed 5 songs. Also, I think we can pretty reasonably assume that The Shattered Fortress corresponds to The Glass Prison (both 12SS songs) and Pull Me Under corresponds to Rite of Passage (both catchy singles).
This leaves A Change of Seasons, Octavarium, and Learning to Live to match with Nightmare to Remember, The Best of Times, and The Count of Tuscany. This is where things get funky. I want to say that A Change of Seasons matches up with The Best of Times due to a similar subject matter (death of MP parent) but the songs are so stylistically different otherwise. That would leave Learning to Live = A Nightmare to Remember and 8VM = Count of Tuscany in my opinion.
What does everyone else think?
I think he was crazy when he posted that :lol
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I think he was crazy when he posted that :lol
Well at least we know he wasn't drunk
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I think one could see The Count of Tuscany as a bit of a reverse Octavarium. The latter starts out really soft and mellow and takes about half the song before it gets into prog territory while TCoT starts out on the proggy side but then goes all soft and mellow in the 2nd half.
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I don't see why so many people have a problem with Portnoy's statement back then. I always thought it had to do strictly with songs lengths. Octavarium and A Change of Seasons are both epic length songs, so are A Nightmare to Remember and The Count of Tuscany. Pull Me Under and A Rite of Passage are of similar lengths, as is The Glass Prison and The Shattered Fortress. Learning to Live and The Best of Times are pretty close too. A rough comparison of track lengths was my immediate interpretation of Portnoy's statement back then and I feel it was accurate enough.
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Haha I remember that post all too well. Hype got through the roof after that (for me at least) and when the album arrived the expectations wasn't really calibrated 😅
I think BC&SL is great but def needed some extra polish and naming fan favorites like that wasn't a good idea imo. Sure it's an album filled with epics but the quality isn't consistent enough to match 8V, ACOS etc.
Also, remember the teaser? 😁 Sadly I can only find a split but it also added a lot of hype. Remember hearing the "turn the key" part pretty clearly from A Rite of Passage in the teaser and how awesome it sounded out of context. It is good in context as well but AROP was my biggest let down on the album. Really thought that was gonna be some cool epic stuff.
https://youtu.be/pnvy-WwtOcs?si=fhlsY4sAoTmcN_k_
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I remember that teaser vividly, geeking out about it while hanging out with a girlfriend who was just not into it at all. Based on the teaser, I thought I would not like the Beautiful Agony section, but it turned out to be one of the most beautiful moments on the album.
I also realized, only years later, why my then girlfriend always seemed sad when she commented about how I had pictures of my meet and greet with Dream Theater in my wallet. I think it was because I had pictures of DT but not of her :( I was dense back then.
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I don't remember when song length was released but the statement didn't have any obvious relation to that if I remember. For me it related to length, structure, sound, quality and all that at the time.
I do remember them releasing the length and sort of codenames. The Pumpkin King being TCOT. Hype for Pumpkin King was intense 😁
TBH I think the album has everything to be sort of close to what he said. It's just that the album is so inconsistent in quality.
Like 8V is a 10/10 from start to 24 minutes later. There's ofc discussions about disjointed structure and sure, maybe it's a 9/10 at some points. ACOS is a 10/10 but def has some 9/10 sections for me. That's still great and doesn't change how much I love it
Then take TCOT. The intro and everything from the slow section until the end is clearly 10/10 for me. But the main riff & chorus section is more like 7 or 8/10. Lyrics is a bit silly and quality just doesn't match the rest. Still great song.
Night to Remember. Starts great but later on there's a couple of 6/10 parts that just drags down the song overall.
That's my biggest disappointment with BC&SL. If the quality was consistent and they gave it some extra polish I really think it would be up there with the best.
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Fun question... on Thanksgiving of 2008 (https://web.archive.org/web/20090523003820/http://www.mikeportnoy.com/forum/tm.aspx?m=2190508&mpage=1&key=�), MP apparently described BC&SL as "a Dream Theater album with 'A Change of Seasons', 'Octavarium', 'Learning to Live', 'Pull Me Under' and 'The Glass Prison' all on one album" in a post on his forum before the album released. The question is... which song would MP feel is which? Obviously Wither is left out since it doesn't match any of the songs he listed and he only listed 5 songs. Also, I think we can pretty reasonably assume that The Shattered Fortress corresponds to The Glass Prison (both 12SS songs) and Pull Me Under corresponds to Rite of Passage (both catchy singles).
This leaves A Change of Seasons, Octavarium, and Learning to Live to match with Nightmare to Remember, The Best of Times, and The Count of Tuscany. This is where things get funky. I want to say that A Change of Seasons matches up with The Best of Times due to a similar subject matter (death of MP parent) but the songs are so stylistically different otherwise. That would leave Learning to Live = A Nightmare to Remember and 8VM = Count of Tuscany in my opinion.
What does everyone else think?
I remember that statement. :lol
And let's face it, making a statement like that and then release the BCSL is absolutely hilarious.
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I don't remember when song length was released but the statement didn't have any obvious relation to that if I remember. For me it related to length, structure, sound, quality and all that at the time.
I do remember them releasing the length and sort of codenames. The Pumpkin King being TCOT. Hype for Pumpkin King was intense 😁
TBH I think the album has everything to be sort of close to what he said. It's just that the album is so inconsistent in quality.
Like 8V is a 10/10 from start to 24 minutes later. There's ofc discussions about disjointed structure and sure, maybe it's a 9/10 at some points. ACOS is a 10/10 but def has some 9/10 sections for me. That's still great and doesn't change how much I love it
Then take TCOT. The intro and everything from the slow section until the end is clearly 10/10 for me. But the main riff & chorus section is more like 7 or 8/10. Lyrics is a bit silly and quality just doesn't match the rest. Still great song.
Night to Remember. Starts great but later on there's a couple of 6/10 parts that just drags down the song overall.
That's my biggest disappointment with BC&SL. If the quality was consistent and they gave it some extra polish I really think it would be up there with the best.
ITPOE is The Pumpkin King, not TCOT.
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I think he was crazy when he posted that :lol
Well at least we know he wasn't drunk
:rollin
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I also remember that statement and a lot of people being excited after it seemed like many people were not a fan of SC.
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Fun question... on Thanksgiving of 2008 (https://web.archive.org/web/20090523003820/http://www.mikeportnoy.com/forum/tm.aspx?m=2190508&mpage=1&key=�), MP apparently described BC&SL as "a Dream Theater album with 'A Change of Seasons', 'Octavarium', 'Learning to Live', 'Pull Me Under' and 'The Glass Prison' all on one album" in a post on his forum before the album released. The question is... which song would MP feel is which? Obviously Wither is left out since it doesn't match any of the songs he listed and he only listed 5 songs. Also, I think we can pretty reasonably assume that The Shattered Fortress corresponds to The Glass Prison (both 12SS songs) and Pull Me Under corresponds to Rite of Passage (both catchy singles).
This leaves A Change of Seasons, Octavarium, and Learning to Live to match with Nightmare to Remember, The Best of Times, and The Count of Tuscany. This is where things get funky. I want to say that A Change of Seasons matches up with The Best of Times due to a similar subject matter (death of MP parent) but the songs are so stylistically different otherwise. That would leave Learning to Live = A Nightmare to Remember and 8VM = Count of Tuscany in my opinion.
What does everyone else think?
I remember that statement. :lol
And let's face it, making a statement like that and then release the BCSL is absolutely hilarious.
To those that create the music, it's impossible to separate their excitement from reality, in any band.
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I don't remember when song length was released but the statement didn't have any obvious relation to that if I remember. For me it related to length, structure, sound, quality and all that at the time.
I do remember them releasing the length and sort of codenames. The Pumpkin King being TCOT. Hype for Pumpkin King was intense 😁
TBH I think the album has everything to be sort of close to what he said. It's just that the album is so inconsistent in quality.
Like 8V is a 10/10 from start to 24 minutes later. There's ofc discussions about disjointed structure and sure, maybe it's a 9/10 at some points. ACOS is a 10/10 but def has some 9/10 sections for me. That's still great and doesn't change how much I love it
Then take TCOT. The intro and everything from the slow section until the end is clearly 10/10 for me. But the main riff & chorus section is more like 7 or 8/10. Lyrics is a bit silly and quality just doesn't match the rest. Still great song.
Night to Remember. Starts great but later on there's a couple of 6/10 parts that just drags down the song overall.
That's my biggest disappointment with BC&SL. If the quality was consistent and they gave it some extra polish I really think it would be up there with the best.
ITPOE is The Pumpkin King, not TCOT.
Ohhhh you're right. Weird part is that even knowing you are right my memories connect it to TCOT.
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That statement IS hilarious in retrospect. I am super he was super pumped about the music and to be sure there is some good music on BCSL. But comparing it to the best songs you've ever written is just going to create unrealistic expectations. Also, I just don't hear the comparison between any of the songs he cited.
A Change of Seasons is the greatest epic ever written so to even be seen as comparable, they'd have to have written something 2x better.